politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On tonight’s PB/Polling Matters TV Show: The fight for Lond
Comments
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"Marriage isn't a word it's a sentence."TCPoliticalBetting said:
More like a prison sentence?CarlottaVance said:
I remain to be persuaded that being married to you wouldn't count as 'work'....... ;-)malcolmg said:
Are you barking, my wife has no need to work.MonikerDiCanio said:
Glad to hear that the bread-winner in your family has kept her job. I guess your promised move to Germany can wait. Needs must.malcolmg said:
when stuck , wheel out and repeat old lies, the refuge of the unprincipled.MonikerDiCanio said:
When are you going to join the refugee flood to Bavaria ? You did promise.malcolmg said:
I am sniggeringMonikerDiCanio said:
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;SouthamObserver said:
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.Roger said:Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
I'm sure the bread winner in MalcomG's family would echo that sentiment.0 -
One point about the Dutch referendum which I don't think has been made: Under the Lisbon Treaty, EU trade deals are meant to be decided by QMV (plus approval by the European Parliament), I believe. Therefore, does it not follow that if the Dutch withdraw their ratification, they are in breach of the Lisbon Treaty?
The other important point, which has already been touched on by Southam and others, is that it does illustrate that, on Brexit, assuming an automatic or smooth process of agreeing a UK-EU deal is dangerous. If any of 27 countries can hold out for some special interest, that adds to the uncertainty.0 -
Higher taxes, too many foreigners and they can't be bothered to learn the local lingo.MaxPB said:
Indeed. Give that we have freedom of movement, it does make one wonder why those who do nothing but run this country down don't just leave for one of those places they bleat on about being better than here.MarqueeMark said:
Why anyone thinks that and doesn't then go and live in one of them baffles me.OllyT said:
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.Mortimer said:
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.foxinsoxuk said:
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.Casino_Royale said:
A man who hates his own country.Roger said:Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A classic disease of the British Left.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.0 -
Conversely there are plenty of Kippers on the Costas.MaxPB said:
Indeed. Give that we have freedom of movement, it does make one wonder why those who do nothing but run this country down don't just leave for one of those places they bleat on about being better than here.MarqueeMark said:
Why anyone thinks that and doesn't then go and live in one of them baffles me.OllyT said:
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.Mortimer said:
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.foxinsoxuk said:
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.Casino_Royale said:
A man who hates his own country.Roger said:Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A classic disease of the British Left.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.0 -
It was the person who I was responding to that that made the statement about "intellectuals" not me - I was merely commentingMaxPB said:
By intellectuals you mean those on the left.OllyT said:MonikerDiCanio said:
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;SouthamObserver said:
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.Roger said:Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
Perhaps you might want to ponder why England is the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their nationality. The answer might be quite uncomfortable0 -
This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,Theuniondivvie said:
'we call our islands by no less than six different names, England, Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom and, in very exalted moments, Albion.'MonikerDiCanio said:
When Orwell wrote English he meant English, when he wrote Scottish he meant Scottish.
Black isn't white and two plus two isn't five despite what the SNP THINK Police may demand.
Yep, that seems pretty precise to me.
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
He had a way with words did Bill....0 -
It must seem like an eternity in Hell. Poor woman.TCPoliticalBetting said:
More like a prison sentence?CarlottaVance said:
I remain to be persuaded that being married to you wouldn't count as 'work'....... ;-)malcolmg said:
Are you barking, my wife has no need to work.MonikerDiCanio said:
Glad to hear that the bread-winner in your family has kept her job. I guess your promised move to Germany can wait. Needs must.malcolmg said:
when stuck , wheel out and repeat old lies, the refuge of the unprincipled.MonikerDiCanio said:
When are you going to join the refugee flood to Bavaria ? You did promise.malcolmg said:
I am sniggeringMonikerDiCanio said:
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;SouthamObserver said:
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.Roger said:Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.0 -
We also invented modern Parliamentary democracy, the right to habeas corpus, common law, the television and the computer.runnymede said:
The UK also abolished slavery before any other nation, gave women the right to vote before any other nation and achieved universal suffrage before any other nation.MaxPB said:
Well we never had a Vichy government, fascist dictator and didn't kill 6m people in gas chambers. That's a good start. The UK also abolished slavery before any other nation, gave women the right to vote before any other nation and achieved universal suffrage before any other nation.OllyT said:
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.Mortimer said:
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.foxinsoxuk said:
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.Casino_Royale said:
A man who hates his own country.Roger said:Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A classic disease of the British Left.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
It's sad that the left is so negative about this place. I kind of like it here. I'm not even resentful about the Empire, without it I would not be in this country.
I'm afraid I don't think any of those points are strictly correct, though I share the general sentiment...
The left's hatred of our nation does make me think of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso0 -
Peterloo, Tolpuddle Martyers not quite in same league as revolts & revolutions in France in 1789, 1830, 1848.volcanopete said:
This is simply not true but it's a different England of the Tolpuddle Martyrs,the Levellers,Peterloo,race riots,poll tax riots and the miners' strike.OllyT said:MonikerDiCanio said:
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;SouthamObserver said:
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.Roger said:Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
Perhaps you might want to ponder why England is the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their nationality. The answer might be quite uncomfortable0 -
I think that may be true of people who spend a lifetime in the PR business, i.e. it becomes impossible for them to distinguish between reality and whatever 'the message' is today. I've certainly worked with PR people who appear to have that problem.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
It reminds me of what Rory Bremner once said about Blair.Toms said:Indigo said:
"Wrong sort of lying. Cameron's speciality is unqualified promises to do things that he has, or might have, no power to deliver.
The "reducing immigration to 10's of thousands" is a case in point, when 200k+ immigrants a year are arriving from the EU he doesn't have the faintest chance of reducing immigration to 10's of thousands, but he lets people believe that he does, and they looks surprised and disappointed when he can't deliver it.
Same with the EU renegotiation, many sceptics here said since early last year that Cameron wasn't going to come back with any more that a little bit of tinsel from the EU renegotiations, many Cameroon sages shook their wise heads and told us to have a bit of faith and wait for the results of the renegotiation, and lo it came to pass, the most pitiful bit of tinsel was revealed with a great deal of backslapping and mutual congratulation of his supporters.
Lisbon it was always likely that Brown would have ratified the treaty before Cameron could do anything about it, but once more he chose to draw a veil over his likely powerlessness and waxed lyrical about how the world would be a better place once he held his referendum on it.
People don't trust Cameron because he isnt straightforward, he lives for dissembling and PR bullshit (see the recent four or was it five updates on his status vis-a-vis the Panama Papers) and he consistently massively over promises and under delivers."
You elucidate my opinion about DC.
The thing is that he does it so well. I have never worked out whether he temporarily believes what he is saying to any given audience. In any case his track record is a long one, some of it on YouTube I expect.
The gist of it was that he was incapable of lying as he sincerely believed in what he was saying at the time, regardless of any connection or not to reality.
Cameron strikes me as much the same.0 -
Universal suffrage? Not by a long chalk.MaxPB said:
I should have added, in Europe.runnymede said:
The UK also abolished slavery before any other nation, gave women the right to vote before any other nation and achieved universal suffrage before any other nation.MaxPB said:
Well we never had a Vichy government, fascist dictator and didn't kill 6m people in gas chambers. That's a good start. The UK also abolished slavery before any other nation, gave women the right to vote before any other nation and achieved universal suffrage before any other nation.OllyT said:
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.Mortimer said:
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.foxinsoxuk said:
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.Casino_Royale said:
A man who hates his own country.Roger said:Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A classic disease of the British Left.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
It's sad that the left is so negative about this place. I kind of like it here. I'm not even resentful about the Empire, without it I would not be in this country.
I'm afraid I don't think any of those points are strictly correct, though I share the general sentiment...
http://tinyurl.com/hlkbtfc0 -
That it is raised by the terminally smug?OllyT said:
By the way you know what they say about Godwin's LawMaxPB said:
Well we never had a Vichy government, fascist dictator and didn't kill 6m people in gas chambers. That's a good start. The UK also abolished slavery before any other nation, gave women the right to vote before any other nation and achieved universal suffrage before any other nation.OllyT said:
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.Mortimer said:
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.foxinsoxuk said:
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.Casino_Royale said:
A man who hates his own country.Roger said:Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A classic disease of the British Left.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
It's sad that the left is so negative about this place. I kind of like it here. I'm not even resentful about the Empire, without it I would not be in this country.0 -
Ouch of the day! Perfectly accurate, though, of course.JackW said:
One of the great failing of the PM's critics is they have and continue to underestimate him and rather begs the question of you as a LibDem that if Cameron is a "weak prime minister" where does that leave Tim Farron as leader of a rump party of eight MP's?PClipp said:
Yes indeed, Mr Quidder. It is much better that the electoral process should take a bit longer but end up with a government which has general support; than that we should go charging ahead and end up with an all-powerful government which cannot even get the support of 25% of the electorate.ThreeQuidder said:
Like Ireland, right?PClipp said:
They all have better voting systems than we do, Mr Mortimer!Mortimer said:
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.foxinsoxuk said:
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
That is why Cameron is such a weak prime minister.
Presently at national level the Liberal Democrats cannot even aspire to "weak" from their current position of total irrelevance.0 -
The agreement is about more than just trade therefore the EU has no right to conclude the agreement by itself (since it goes beyond its competences) which is why all EU member states must ratify it.Richard_Nabavi said:One point about the Dutch referendum which I don't think has been made: Under the Lisbon Treaty, EU trade deals are meant to be decided by QMV (plus approval by the European Parliament), I believe. Therefore, does it not follow that if the Dutch withdraw their ratification, they are in breach of the Lisbon Treaty?
The other important point, which has already been touched on by Southam and others, is that it does illustrate that, on Brexit, assuming an automatic or smooth process of agreeing a UK-EU deal is dangerous. If any of 27 countries can hold out for some special interest, that adds to the uncertainty.
As for a UK-EU deal so long as it is just a trade deal then it would be ratified by simple QMV.0 -
When will Cameron cease to be PM
Sky bet
2016 9/4
2017 6/1
2018 11/4
2019 2/1
2020 11/2
2020 + 9/1
0 -
Actually we try and rationalise with you to try and help you see reality as opposed to looking at things through rose-tinted spectacles.SouthamObserver said:
Hmmm.BannedInParis said:
I don't think that holds up at all. We *pity* you. It's a totally different emotion going on.SouthamObserver said:
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.Roger said:Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
So when I am told I hate the UK and its history, that I am a traitor, that Labour is the party of vested interests, the feckless and the workshy, and so on, that is pity, not hate. I am not so sure. It sounds very angry to me :-)
If you want real hate - go to the Guardian comments BTL.
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Possibly true when it is a lifetime. A few years of PR work and then a move to other work keeps us human. In Cameron's case it was PR and then politics which has the same need to control the message and win media battles.runnymede said:
I think that may be true of people who spend a lifetime in the PR business, i.e. it becomes impossible for them to distinguish between reality and whatever 'the message' is today. I've certainly worked with PR people who appear to have that problem.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
It reminds me of what Rory Bremner once said about Blair.Toms said:Indigo said:
"Wrong sort of lying. Cameron's speciality is unqualified promises to do things that he has, or might have, no power to deliver.
The "reducing immigration to 10's of thousands" is a case in point, when 200k+ immigrants a year are arriving from the EU he doesn't have the faintest chance of reducing immigration to 10's of thousands, but he lets people believe that he does, and they looks surprised and disappointed when he can't deliver it.
Same with the EU renegotiation, many sceptics here said since early last year that Cameron wasn't going to come back with any more that a little bit of tinsel from the EU renegotiations, many Cameroon sages shook their wise heads and told us to have a bit of faith and wait for the results of the renegotiation, and lo it came to pass, the most pitiful bit of tinsel was revealed with a great deal of backslapping and mutual congratulation of his supporters.
Lisbon it was always likely that Brown would have ratified the treaty before Cameron could do anything about it, but once more he chose to draw a veil over his likely powerlessness and waxed lyrical about how the world would be a better place once he held his referendum on it.
People don't trust Cameron because he isnt straightforward, he lives for dissembling and PR bullshit (see the recent four or was it five updates on his status vis-a-vis the Panama Papers) and he consistently massively over promises and under delivers."
You elucidate my opinion about DC.
The thing is that he does it so well. I have never worked out whether he temporarily believes what he is saying to any given audience. In any case his track record is a long one, some of it on YouTube I expect.
The gist of it was that he was incapable of lying as he sincerely believed in what he was saying at the time, regardless of any connection or not to reality.
Cameron strikes me as much the same.
0 -
On the first point, yes, that makes sense - what extra things are in the deal?Philip_Thompson said:The agreement is about more than just trade therefore the EU has no right to conclude the agreement by itself (since it goes beyond its competences) which is why all EU member states must ratify it.
As for a UK-EU deal so long as it is just a trade deal then it would be ratified by simple QMV.
On the second, I think that is naive; it's unlikely that any deal with the UK will be simpler than a deal with the Ukraine. Quite the opposite, I imagine - it's bound to cover more than just trade (unless perhaps its a very loose deal).0 -
Yes. To give him his due I guess Corbyn is supremely bad at that.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
It reminds me of what Rory Bremner once said about Blair.Toms said:Indigo said:
"Wrong sort of lying. Cameron's speciality is unqualified promises to do things that he has, or might have, no power to deliver.
The "reducing immigration to 10's of thousands" is a case in point, when 200k+ immigrants a year are arriving from the EU he doesn't have the faintest chance of reducing immigration to 10's of thousands, but he lets people believe that he does, and they looks surprised and disappointed when he can't deliver it.
Same with the EU renegotiation, many sceptics here said since early last year that Cameron wasn't going to come back with any more that a little bit of tinsel from the EU renegotiations, many Cameroon sages shook their wise heads and told us to have a bit of faith and wait for the results of the renegotiation, and lo it came to pass, the most pitiful bit of tinsel was revealed with a great deal of backslapping and mutual congratulation of his supporters.
Lisbon it was always likely that Brown would have ratified the treaty before Cameron could do anything about it, but once more he chose to draw a veil over his likely powerlessness and waxed lyrical about how the world would be a better place once he held his referendum on it.
People don't trust Cameron because he isnt straightforward, he lives for dissembling and PR bullshit (see the recent four or was it five updates on his status vis-a-vis the Panama Papers) and he consistently massively over promises and under delivers."
You elucidate my opinion about DC.
The thing is that he does it so well. I have never worked out whether he temporarily believes what he is saying to any given audience. In any case his track record is a long one, some of it on YouTube I expect.
The gist of it was that he was incapable of lying as he sincerely believed in what he was saying at the time, regardless of any connection or not to reality.
Cameron strikes me as much the same.0 -
He did: an Englishman writing about an English king in a play concerned with a secure succession to the English throne. I sense Will wasn't really thinking of or including barbarous Celts in those lines, though hooray, that all changed in 1603!MarqueeMark said:
This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,Theuniondivvie said:
'we call our islands by no less than six different names, England, Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom and, in very exalted moments, Albion.'MonikerDiCanio said:
When Orwell wrote English he meant English, when he wrote Scottish he meant Scottish.
Black isn't white and two plus two isn't five despite what the SNP THINK Police may demand.
Yep, that seems pretty precise to me.
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
He had a way with words did Bill....0 -
All hail to thee, MacBeth...Theuniondivvie said:
He did: an Englishman writing about an English king in a play concerned with a secure succession to the English throne. I sense Will wasn't really thinking of or including barbarous Celts in those lines, though hooray, that all changed in 1603!MarqueeMark said:
This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,Theuniondivvie said:
'we call our islands by no less than six different names, England, Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom and, in very exalted moments, Albion.'MonikerDiCanio said:
When Orwell wrote English he meant English, when he wrote Scottish he meant Scottish.
Black isn't white and two plus two isn't five despite what the SNP THINK Police may demand.
Yep, that seems pretty precise to me.
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
He had a way with words did Bill....0 -
Not sure which part in particular is the issue but the agreement covers multiple areas that would be redundant in a deal with the UK including political reforms, financial support, defense and foreign policy. The former the UK does not need, for the latter the UK is already covered by NATO.Richard_Nabavi said:
On the first point, yes, that makes sense - what extra things are in the deal?Philip_Thompson said:The agreement is about more than just trade therefore the EU has no right to conclude the agreement by itself (since it goes beyond its competences) which is why all EU member states must ratify it.
As for a UK-EU deal so long as it is just a trade deal then it would be ratified by simple QMV.
On the second, I think that is naive; it's unlikely that any deal with the UK will be simpler than a deal with the Ukraine. Quite the opposite, I imagine - it's bound to cover more than just trade (unless perhaps its a very loose deal).0 -
Useful article on Ireland's attempt to form a government:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2016/role-of-rotating-taoiseach-now-on-offer-for-martin-in-equal-partnership-34606396.html
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But presumably it would only require one extra feature, such as cooperation with Europol, or some deal on extradition, or the Dublin Convention, or some variant of freedom of movement, to make it no longer a purely trade-only deal.Philip_Thompson said:
Not sure which part in particular is the issue but the agreement covers multiple areas that would be redundant in a deal with the UK including political reforms, financial support, defense and foreign policy. The former the UK does not need, for the latter the UK is already covered by NATO.Richard_Nabavi said:
On the first point, yes, that makes sense - what extra things are in the deal?Philip_Thompson said:The agreement is about more than just trade therefore the EU has no right to conclude the agreement by itself (since it goes beyond its competences) which is why all EU member states must ratify it.
As for a UK-EU deal so long as it is just a trade deal then it would be ratified by simple QMV.
On the second, I think that is naive; it's unlikely that any deal with the UK will be simpler than a deal with the Ukraine. Quite the opposite, I imagine - it's bound to cover more than just trade (unless perhaps its a very loose deal).
There's a hell of a lot of uncertainty about all this.0 -
As if it wasn't already a complete farce.Richard_Nabavi said:Useful article on Ireland's attempt to form a government:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2016/role-of-rotating-taoiseach-now-on-offer-for-martin-in-equal-partnership-34606396.html0 -
PR, innit? Everyone tells us what a wonderful system it is, and to be fair it is true that every bonkers strand of opinion is represented.MaxPB said:
As if it wasn't already a complete farce.Richard_Nabavi said:Useful article on Ireland's attempt to form a government:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2016/role-of-rotating-taoiseach-now-on-offer-for-martin-in-equal-partnership-34606396.html0 -
Explain in precise English words " This sceptred isle ".Theuniondivvie said:
He did: an Englishman writing about an English king in a play concerned with a secure succession to the English throne. I sense Will wasn't really thinking of or including barbarous Celts in those lines, though hooray, that all changed in 1603!MarqueeMark said:
This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,Theuniondivvie said:
'we call our islands by no less than six different names, England, Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom and, in very exalted moments, Albion.'MonikerDiCanio said:
When Orwell wrote English he meant English, when he wrote Scottish he meant Scottish.
Black isn't white and two plus two isn't five despite what the SNP THINK Police may demand.
Yep, that seems pretty precise to me.
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
He had a way with words did Bill....
EUniondivvie is a man of contradictions.0 -
There's nothing rose tinted about my support for a big state approach to solving problems and challenges. The rise of the big state took my family and millions of others out of abject poverty and gave us standards of living centuries-worth of our ancestors could never have dreamed of. I am not the first person in my family ever to go to university because I am the first one clever enough to have done so. It's just that I was the first one to have had the opportunity.weejonnie said:
Actually we try and rationalise with you to try and help you see reality as opposed to looking at things through rose-tinted spectacles.SouthamObserver said:
Hmmm.BannedInParis said:
I don't think that holds up at all. We *pity* you. It's a totally different emotion going on.SouthamObserver said:
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.Roger said:Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
So when I am told I hate the UK and its history, that I am a traitor, that Labour is the party of vested interests, the feckless and the workshy, and so on, that is pity, not hate. I am not so sure. It sounds very angry to me :-)
If you want real hate - go to the Guardian comments BTL.
0 -
Not really since we all know the intermediary step everyone agrees on is we'll via the EFTA.Richard_Nabavi said:
But presumably it would only require one extra feature, such as cooperation with Europol, or some deal on extradition, or the Dublin Convention, or some variant of freedom of movement, to make it no longer a purely trade-only deal.Philip_Thompson said:
Not sure which part in particular is the issue but the agreement covers multiple areas that would be redundant in a deal with the UK including political reforms, financial support, defense and foreign policy. The former the UK does not need, for the latter the UK is already covered by NATO.Richard_Nabavi said:
On the first point, yes, that makes sense - what extra things are in the deal?Philip_Thompson said:The agreement is about more than just trade therefore the EU has no right to conclude the agreement by itself (since it goes beyond its competences) which is why all EU member states must ratify it.
As for a UK-EU deal so long as it is just a trade deal then it would be ratified by simple QMV.
On the second, I think that is naive; it's unlikely that any deal with the UK will be simpler than a deal with the Ukraine. Quite the opposite, I imagine - it's bound to cover more than just trade (unless perhaps its a very loose deal).
There's a hell of a lot of uncertainty about all this.0 -
It's no less uncertain than where the EU will be in 10 years time.Richard_Nabavi said:
But presumably it would only require one extra feature, such as cooperation with Europol, or some deal on extradition, or the Dublin Convention, or some variant of freedom of movement, to make it no longer a purely trade-only deal.Philip_Thompson said:
Not sure which part in particular is the issue but the agreement covers multiple areas that would be redundant in a deal with the UK including political reforms, financial support, defense and foreign policy. The former the UK does not need, for the latter the UK is already covered by NATO.Richard_Nabavi said:
On the first point, yes, that makes sense - what extra things are in the deal?Philip_Thompson said:The agreement is about more than just trade therefore the EU has no right to conclude the agreement by itself (since it goes beyond its competences) which is why all EU member states must ratify it.
As for a UK-EU deal so long as it is just a trade deal then it would be ratified by simple QMV.
On the second, I think that is naive; it's unlikely that any deal with the UK will be simpler than a deal with the Ukraine. Quite the opposite, I imagine - it's bound to cover more than just trade (unless perhaps its a very loose deal).
There's a hell of a lot of uncertainty about all this.0 -
Why do you think everyone agrees on that? As far as I can see, very few people (except for some reason here on PB) see that as the route, and statements by both Leave campaigns are incompatible with it..Philip_Thompson said:Not really since we all know the intermediary step everyone agrees on is we'll via the EFTA.
0 -
Surely that would be as binding as what we have now and would require as much negotiation to pull out of.Philip_Thompson said:
Not really since we all know the intermediary step everyone agrees on is we'll via the EFTA.Richard_Nabavi said:
But presumably it would only require one extra feature, such as cooperation with Europol, or some deal on extradition, or the Dublin Convention, or some variant of freedom of movement, to make it no longer a purely trade-only deal.Philip_Thompson said:
Not sure which part in particular is the issue but the agreement covers multiple areas that would be redundant in a deal with the UK including political reforms, financial support, defense and foreign policy. The former the UK does not need, for the latter the UK is already covered by NATO.Richard_Nabavi said:
On the first point, yes, that makes sense - what extra things are in the deal?Philip_Thompson said:The agreement is about more than just trade therefore the EU has no right to conclude the agreement by itself (since it goes beyond its competences) which is why all EU member states must ratify it.
As for a UK-EU deal so long as it is just a trade deal then it would be ratified by simple QMV.
On the second, I think that is naive; it's unlikely that any deal with the UK will be simpler than a deal with the Ukraine. Quite the opposite, I imagine - it's bound to cover more than just trade (unless perhaps its a very loose deal).
There's a hell of a lot of uncertainty about all this.
0 -
England is not an isle.MonikerDiCanio said:
Explain in precise English words " This sceptred isle ".Theuniondivvie said:
He did: an Englishman writing about an English king in a play concerned with a secure succession to the English throne. I sense Will wasn't really thinking of or including barbarous Celts in those lines, though hooray, that all changed in 1603!MarqueeMark said:
This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,Theuniondivvie said:
'we call our islands by no less than six different names, England, Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom and, in very exalted moments, Albion.'MonikerDiCanio said:
When Orwell wrote English he meant English, when he wrote Scottish he meant Scottish.
Black isn't white and two plus two isn't five despite what the SNP THINK Police may demand.
Yep, that seems pretty precise to me.
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
He had a way with words did Bill....
EUniondivvie is a man of contradictions.
0 -
Fair point.Moses_ said:
That's actually quite a worrying comment. It appears that you think you can only suffer racism if you are any colour other than white. Perhaps you didn't mean it the way it reads ?Sean_F said:
Last time I looked, Ukrainians were White.surbiton said:
Racism ?foxinsoxuk said:
I pity the poor Ukraine, getting pushed into Putins orbit because of a Euro-tantrum.chestnut said:
99% of the population are probably unaware of it's existence,but if the BBC/ITV etc publicise it that may change a little.taffys said:I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.
One thing it could conceivably do is tie into a theme of democratic insurgency.
The Greeks last year, the Dutch this....and then us?
There is a sense that there is something wrong about the EU.
Kippers certainly have some very strange bedfellows! What is wrong with an EU freetrade agreement with Ukraine tied to measures to improve good government?
My point was that Ukrainians are the same race (more or less) as Western Europeans, so I think it's unlikely that racism is at the heart of the Dutch vote.0 -
Defection watch
Tory activist Shazia Awan: Zac Goldsmith’s damaging, exploitative and ugly campaign puts me off politics as a BME candidate
The former Conservative party parliamentary candidate for Leigh claims the Tory London mayoral campaign is dragging the party back to the days of Enoch Powell.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2016/04/tory-activist-shazia-awan-zac-goldsmith-s-damaging-exploitative-and-ugly0 -
Thanks. EUdivvie thought differently.SouthamObserver said:
England is not an isle.MonikerDiCanio said:
Explain in precise English words " This sceptred isle ".Theuniondivvie said:
He did: an Englishman writing about an English king in a play concerned with a secure succession to the English throne. I sense Will wasn't really thinking of or including barbarous Celts in those lines, though hooray, that all changed in 1603!MarqueeMark said:
This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,Theuniondivvie said:
'we call our islands by no less than six different names, England, Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom and, in very exalted moments, Albion.'MonikerDiCanio said:
When Orwell wrote English he meant English, when he wrote Scottish he meant Scottish.
Black isn't white and two plus two isn't five despite what the SNP THINK Police may demand.
Yep, that seems pretty precise to me.
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
He had a way with words did Bill....
EUniondivvie is a man of contradictions.0 -
Tartan Tories:
The party that offers to pass on the highest proportion of Tory spending cuts is the SNP, because they are the ones offering to do the least to prevent them through tax increases. On this basis the SNP are more responsible for penalising the vulnerable than any of the opposition parties.
http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.id/2016/04/its-time-for-apology.html
Tho I think 'any' of the opposition parties is a bit strong, as presumably Ruthie's Tories are just as keen as the SNP on George's 'austerity'.....
0 -
People in politics usually go through up to three phases.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Possibly true when it is a lifetime. A few years of PR work and then a move to other work keeps us human. In Cameron's case it was PR and then politics which has the same need to control the message and win media battles.runnymede said:
I think that may be true of people who spend a lifetime in the PR business, i.e. it becomes impossible for them to distinguish between reality and whatever 'the message' is today. I've certainly worked with PR people who appear to have that problem.
1. I am joining party X because they have the best ideas, and I'm keen to help persuade people of those good ideas.
2. I need to discourage coverage of unpopular things because X's good ideas are being frustrated by media manipulation.
3. I need to manipulate the message to win. I've no time to discuss whether the ideas are good.
Idealists stick at point 1 even if it risks losing elections (cf Corbyn), and party members tend to expect them to stick to 1 but to win elections anyway. Most politicians move to 2 pretty quickly (cf Cameron, Miliband). Some slide into 3 some or all of the time (cf Trump).
Meanwhile, journalists go through two phases:
1. We are fearless champions of the truth. We will not hesitate to expose sleazy/disreputable politicians.
2. We need to attract readers/viewers, and one way to do that is to print stories about sleazy/disreputable politicians. If they are in fact sleazy/disreputable, that's a bonus, but it's not essential.
The interaction between the two is often toxic.0 -
Poor old Monica, pwned over Orwell and now hanging on my every post.MonikerDiCanio said:
Explain in precise English words " This sceptred isle ".Theuniondivvie said:
He did: an Englishman writing about an English king in a play concerned with a secure succession to the English throne. I sense Will wasn't really thinking of or including barbarous Celts in those lines, though hooray, that all changed in 1603!MarqueeMark said:
This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,Theuniondivvie said:
'we call our islands by no less than six different names, England, Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom and, in very exalted moments, Albion.'MonikerDiCanio said:
When Orwell wrote English he meant English, when he wrote Scottish he meant Scottish.
Black isn't white and two plus two isn't five despite what the SNP THINK Police may demand.
Yep, that seems pretty precise to me.
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
He had a way with words did Bill....
EUniondivvie is a man of contradictions.
Since you were unable to work with GO's words and you've retreated into lumpen literalness, perhaps you can explain how WS's 'isle' (singular) applies to the British Isles (plural)? Are Ireland, the Hebrides, Shetland etc all to be forever cast out from the glory that is Albion?0 -
The Dutch referendum had the weird facet that "Yes" voters actually would have been better staying at home so to invalidate it on turnout grounds.Sean_F said:
Fair point.Moses_ said:
That's actually quite a worrying comment. It appears that you think you can only suffer racism if you are any colour other than white. Perhaps you didn't mean it the way it reads ?Sean_F said:
Last time I looked, Ukrainians were White.surbiton said:
Racism ?foxinsoxuk said:
I pity the poor Ukraine, getting pushed into Putins orbit because of a Euro-tantrum.chestnut said:
99% of the population are probably unaware of it's existence,but if the BBC/ITV etc publicise it that may change a little.taffys said:I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.
One thing it could conceivably do is tie into a theme of democratic insurgency.
The Greeks last year, the Dutch this....and then us?
There is a sense that there is something wrong about the EU.
Kippers certainly have some very strange bedfellows! What is wrong with an EU freetrade agreement with Ukraine tied to measures to improve good government?
My point was that Ukrainians are the same race (more or less) as Western Europeans, so I think it's unlikely that racism is at the heart of the Dutch vote.0 -
There were complaints in our local paper last week about trying to play one group off against another. Zac's campaign has a tin ear about this.TheScreamingEagles said:Defection watch
Tory activist Shazia Awan: Zac Goldsmith’s damaging, exploitative and ugly campaign puts me off politics as a BME candidate
The former Conservative party parliamentary candidate for Leigh claims the Tory London mayoral campaign is dragging the party back to the days of Enoch Powell.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2016/04/tory-activist-shazia-awan-zac-goldsmith-s-damaging-exploitative-and-ugly0 -
Mr F,
"My point was that Ukrainians are the same race (more or less) as Western Europeans, so I think it's unlikely that racism is at the heart of the Dutch vote."
Having spent Easter weekend back in my birthplace of Boston, I can assure you that the mass immigration there is almost totally white. Yet racism is the usual term used, but as it's used against anyone who disagrees with the Left, the term has become meaningless.
Xenophobic possibly? Whiteophobic if you're Lady Bucket.0 -
Having leaflets aimed at different ethnic groups may come over as a bit patronising, but it's hardly "damaging, exploitative, and ugly." Labour and other parties do it as well.TheScreamingEagles said:Defection watch
Tory activist Shazia Awan: Zac Goldsmith’s damaging, exploitative and ugly campaign puts me off politics as a BME candidate
The former Conservative party parliamentary candidate for Leigh claims the Tory London mayoral campaign is dragging the party back to the days of Enoch Powell.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2016/04/tory-activist-shazia-awan-zac-goldsmith-s-damaging-exploitative-and-ugly
As you imply, I think she's made up her mind to switch sides, and is just looking for a pretext to do so.
0 -
You think the Tory government would do anything else?Richard_Nabavi said:
Why do you think everyone agrees on that? As far as I can see, very few people (except for some reason here on PB) see that as the route, and statements by both Leave campaigns are incompatible with it..Philip_Thompson said:Not really since we all know the intermediary step everyone agrees on is we'll via the EFTA.
0 -
So in EUdivviespeak, when Orwell says England he means the YoooKaay but when Skakespeare speaks of " this Sceptred Isle " he means England.Theuniondivvie said:
Poor old Monica, pwned over Orwell and now hanging on my every post.MonikerDiCanio said:
Explain in precise English words " This sceptred isle ".Theuniondivvie said:
He did: an Englishman writing about an English king in a play concerned with a secure succession to the English throne. I sense Will wasn't really thinking of or including barbarous Celts in those lines, though hooray, that all changed in 1603!MarqueeMark said:
This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,Theuniondivvie said:
'we call our islands by no less than six different names, England, Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom and, in very exalted moments, Albion.'MonikerDiCanio said:
When Orwell wrote English he meant English, when he wrote Scottish he meant Scottish.
Black isn't white and two plus two isn't five despite what the SNP THINK Police may demand.
Yep, that seems pretty precise to me.
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
He had a way with words did Bill....
EUniondivvie is a man of contradictions.
Since you were unable to work with GO's words and you've retreated into lumpen literalness, perhaps you can explain how WS's 'isle' (singular) applies to the British Isles (plural)? Are Ireland, the Hebrides, Shetland etc all to be forever cast out from the glory that is Albion?
The world and English literature according to the EUdivvie.0 -
Zac is feeble. And Khan is economical with the truth.
Useless candidates both of them.
Zac is feeble. And Khan is economical with the truth.DecrepitJohnL said:
There were complaints in our local paper last week about trying to play one group off against another. Zac's campaign has a tin ear about this.TheScreamingEagles said:Defection watch
Tory activist Shazia Awan: Zac Goldsmith’s damaging, exploitative and ugly campaign puts me off politics as a BME candidate
The former Conservative party parliamentary candidate for Leigh claims the Tory London mayoral campaign is dragging the party back to the days of Enoch Powell.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2016/04/tory-activist-shazia-awan-zac-goldsmith-s-damaging-exploitative-and-ugly
Useless candidates both of them.
0 -
Interesting piece for lefties relating to the absence in recent years of a significant left-wing party or even school of thought in the US, depite various not very effective attempts over the years:
http://time.com/4280924/bernie-sanders-revolution/
Whether that will lead to anything is open to debate. Sanders won't live forever. Is he going to be in a position to build a lasting left-wing movement, probably within the Democrats?0 -
Yes we do but you clearly don't understand it.OllyT said:
I quite like it but I do not for a second think it is superior to other European countries.MaxPB said:
Well we never had a Vichy government, fascist dictator and didn't kill 6m people in gas chambers. That's a good start. The UK also abolished slavery before any other nation, gave women the right to vote before any other nation and achieved universal suffrage before any other nation.OllyT said:
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.Mortimer said:
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.foxinsoxuk said:
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.Casino_Royale said:
A man who hates his own country.Roger said:Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A classic disease of the British Left.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
It's sad that the left is so negative about this place. I kind of like it here. I'm not even resentful about the Empire, without it I would not be in this country.
By the way you know what they say about Godwin's Law0 -
Just had to watch the Norman "Back to Wigan Pier" Smith taxi stunt with both of them. Both were weak as an American Domestic Lager.Cyclefree said:Zac is feeble. And Khan is economical with the truth.
Useless candidates both of them.
Zac is feeble. And Khan is economical with the truth.DecrepitJohnL said:
There were complaints in our local paper last week about trying to play one group off against another. Zac's campaign has a tin ear about this.TheScreamingEagles said:Defection watch
Tory activist Shazia Awan: Zac Goldsmith’s damaging, exploitative and ugly campaign puts me off politics as a BME candidate
The former Conservative party parliamentary candidate for Leigh claims the Tory London mayoral campaign is dragging the party back to the days of Enoch Powell.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2016/04/tory-activist-shazia-awan-zac-goldsmith-s-damaging-exploitative-and-ugly
Useless candidates both of them.0 -
http://order-order.com/2016/04/07/board-of-deputies-condemn-corbyns-disturbing-defence-of-brother/
Will play well down Finsbury Park Mosque though.0 -
Yes I do. I simply cannot see how, given the content of the Leave campaigns and the strength of feeling on immigration, any government could retain freedom of movement in the event of a Leave result.Philip_Thompson said:
You think the Tory government would do anything else?Richard_Nabavi said:
Why do you think everyone agrees on that? As far as I can see, very few people (except for some reason here on PB) see that as the route, and statements by both Leave campaigns are incompatible with it..Philip_Thompson said:Not really since we all know the intermediary step everyone agrees on is we'll via the EFTA.
But who knows? As I've been saying for at least four years, those advocating leaving have completely failed to do the groundwork, so all this is guesswork.0 -
German minister 'told police to remove the word "rape" from reports about mass migrant sex attacks in Cologne on new Year's Eve'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3527771/German-minister-told-police-remove-word-rape-reports-mass-migrant-sex-attacks-Cologne-new-Year-s-Eve.html0 -
The absence of a clear meaning to a Leave vote is why I believe there would be an early general election after a vote to leave the EU. Any negotiating strategy drawn up by the government without a further mandate would inevitably lead to "stab in the back" factions forming within the Conservative party (largely comprised of precisely the people who had revelled in the incoherence of the Leave campaign while it was being conducted). These factions would make the government completely unmanageable in short order.Richard_Nabavi said:
Yes I do. I simply cannot see how, given the content of the Leave campaigns and the strength of feeling on immigration, any government could retain freedom of movement in the event of a Leave result.Philip_Thompson said:
You think the Tory government would do anything else?Richard_Nabavi said:
Why do you think everyone agrees on that? As far as I can see, very few people (except for some reason here on PB) see that as the route, and statements by both Leave campaigns are incompatible with it..Philip_Thompson said:Not really since we all know the intermediary step everyone agrees on is we'll via the EFTA.
But who knows? As I've been saying for at least four years, those advocating leaving have completely failed to do the groundwork, so all this is guesswork.0 -
LOL....nothing too good for the workers...or has he given up on that fraudulent character now?
'Anti-capitalist' Russell Brand plans pool and cinema for the £3.3million thatched cottage he's bought in Tory heartland
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3527801/Anti-capitalist-Russell-Brand-plans-pool-cinema-3-3million-thatched-cottage.html0 -
Dr P,
"People in politics usually go through up to three phases."
I agree. But phase 1 only lasts with idealists and they rapidly become unsuccessful. Then 2 and 3 are passed in rapid succession. The problem is that idealists who are convinced they are totally right rapidly pass on to 3 almost without realising it.
I'd put Jezza in that category, but I suspect you disagree.0 -
I think you make a good, indeed unarguable, point if you compare the size of the state in the late 20th century compared to the 19th century say, but what do you think the optimum size of the state is?SouthamObserver said:
There's nothing rose tinted about my support for a big state approach to solving problems and challenges. The rise of the big state took my family and millions of others out of abject poverty and gave us standards of living centuries-worth of our ancestors could never have dreamed of. I am not the first person in my family ever to go to university because I am the first one clever enough to have done so. It's just that I was the first one to have had the opportunity.weejonnie said:
Bigger than today? A lot bigger? Or maybe in some areas a bit smaller? These arguments are IMHO not so easy to get right.0 -
Might help if you bothered to read that I was responding to someone making that claim. If, as Moniker claimed. England was the only country where intellectuals hated their country it could possibly be that it is something about the country that is different rather than the nature of intellectuals in England.Pulpstar said:
Bollocks of the dayOllyT said:
Perhaps you might want to ponder why England is the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their nationality. The answer might be quite uncomfortable0 -
Thatcherism.FrancisUrquhart said:LOL....nothing too good for the workers...or has he given up on that fraudulent character now?
'Anti-capitalist' Russell Brand plans pool and cinema for the £3.3million thatched cottage he's bought in Tory heartland
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3527801/Anti-capitalist-Russell-Brand-plans-pool-cinema-3-3million-thatched-cottage.html0 -
If the US gets an out-and-out corporatist like Hillary for the next president, presumably American politics is going to be even more extreme and fractious in 2020. Many democrat voters currently seeing her as the second coming are going to be hugely disappointed with her as she continues to export blue collar jobs to Mexico and Asia. Many more centre and moderate republicans are going to view the Republican establishment for the bunch of unelectable nutters they are, and the who country is going to be considerable more angry, and they ain't exactly happy now. Seems to be a ripe environment for a leftie movement on the one hand, and a Reaganite populist on the other hand and a severe kicking for the establishments of both parties.NickPalmer said:Interesting piece for lefties relating to the absence in recent years of a significant left-wing party or even school of thought in the US, depite various not very effective attempts over the years:
http://time.com/4280924/bernie-sanders-revolution/
Whether that will lead to anything is open to debate. Sanders won't live forever. Is he going to be in a position to build a lasting left-wing movement, probably within the Democrats?0 -
Nice summing up.NickPalmer said:
People in politics usually go through up to three phases.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Possibly true when it is a lifetime. A few years of PR work and then a move to other work keeps us human. In Cameron's case it was PR and then politics which has the same need to control the message and win media battles.runnymede said:
I think that may be true of people who spend a lifetime in the PR business, i.e. it becomes impossible for them to distinguish between reality and whatever 'the message' is today. I've certainly worked with PR people who appear to have that problem.
1. I am joining party X because they have the best ideas, and I'm keen to help persuade people of those good ideas.
2. I need to discourage coverage of unpopular things because X's good ideas are being frustrated by media manipulation.
3. I need to manipulate the message to win. I've no time to discuss whether the ideas are good.
Idealists stick at point 1 even if it risks losing elections (cf Corbyn), and party members tend to expect them to stick to 1 but to win elections anyway. Most politicians move to 2 pretty quickly (cf Cameron, Miliband). Some slide into 3 some or all of the time (cf Trump).
Meanwhile, journalists go through two phases:
1. We are fearless champions of the truth. We will not hesitate to expose sleazy/disreputable politicians.
2. We need to attract readers/viewers, and one way to do that is to print stories about sleazy/disreputable politicians. If they are in fact sleazy/disreputable, that's a bonus, but it's not essential.
The interaction between the two is often toxic.0 -
No quotations cited...OllyT said:
Might help if you bothered to read that I was responding to someone making that claim. If, as Moniker claimed. England was the only country where intellectuals hated their country it could possibly be that it is something about the country that is different rather than the nature of intellectuals in England.Pulpstar said:
Bollocks of the dayOllyT said:
Perhaps you might want to ponder why England is the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their nationality. The answer might be quite uncomfortable0 -
I actually feel sorry for all the kids who bought into his nonsense, then bought the book, the tickets to the live show, the t-shirt, pumped up his youtube channel. I bet he earned a nice little packet out of it all.MonikerDiCanio said:
Thatcherism.FrancisUrquhart said:LOL....nothing too good for the workers...or has he given up on that fraudulent character now?
'Anti-capitalist' Russell Brand plans pool and cinema for the £3.3million thatched cottage he's bought in Tory heartland
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3527801/Anti-capitalist-Russell-Brand-plans-pool-cinema-3-3million-thatched-cottage.html0 -
In normal times this would be a massive story:
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/156191/jeremy-corbyn-says-his-brother-was-not-wrong
These are not normal times.0 -
The trouble is that an general election would only resolve it if there were two sides advocating different solutions. Unless the Conservative Party splits in two, a GE doesn't help. And if it did split in two, we might end up with a government wanting us back in the EU.AlastairMeeks said:The absence of a clear meaning to a Leave vote is why I believe there would be an early general election after a vote to leave the EU. Any negotiating strategy drawn up by the government without a further mandate would inevitably lead to "stab in the back" factions forming within the Conservative party (largely comprised of precisely the people who had revelled in the incoherence of the Leave campaign while it was being conducted). These factions would make the government completely unmanageable in short order.
Therefore I think this would have to be resolved internally in the Conservative Party, and to avoid the 'stab in the back' problem, surely the only possible resolution is a Full Monty Brexit? That, after all, would be what voters had been led to believe they were getting. It's for this reason that I'd support the Full Monty in the event of a Leave result.
It's certainly true that it would an unholy mess.0 -
One has to take into account the big rise in incomes per head that took place in the Twentieth century, which made a big State affordable. Simply expanding the State, if incomes had remained at the level of 1900, would have eventually crashed the economy.JonCisBack said:
I think you make a good, indeed unarguable, point if you compare the size of the state in the late 20th century compared to the 19th century say, but what do you think the optimum size of the state is?SouthamObserver said:
There's nothing rose tinted about my support for a big state approach to solving problems and challenges. The rise of the big state took my family and millions of others out of abject poverty and gave us standards of living centuries-worth of our ancestors could never have dreamed of. I am not the first person in my family ever to go to university because I am the first one clever enough to have done so. It's just that I was the first one to have had the opportunity.weejonnie said:
Bigger than today? A lot bigger? Or maybe in some areas a bit smaller? These arguments are IMHO not so easy to get right.0 -
Play spot the undergraduate at Cameron's flying visit to Exeter University.
https://twitter.com/Number10gov/status/7180181724026798080 -
New York is the first Beeches Brook Bernie has to get over on April 19th.He is behind but closing.His momentum might just capture the NY zeitgeist,especially with a more organised campaign supported by organised labour and environmentalists.Don't forget "super delegates" changed their minds over Obama as well.Have a saver on Bernie with a view to trading out on 20th.He still beats Hillary on the head-to- heads. Are you feelin it yet? #FeelTheBern
London organisation at londonforbernie.com0 -
The only person who was going to "stab Britain in the back" is Ed Miliband. Michael Fallon told me so.AlastairMeeks said:Any negotiating strategy drawn up by the government without a further mandate would inevitably lead to "stab in the back" factions forming within the Conservative party (largely comprised of precisely the people who had revelled in the incoherence of the Leave campaign while it was being conducted).
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Waukesha County, Wisconsin:
2016
Cruz 75,123
Trump 27,186
Kasich 18,521
Total: 120,830
Sanders 26,339
Clinton 24,784
Total: 51,123
Total: 171,953
2008
McCain 28,160
Huckabee13,926
Other 1,313
Total: 43,399
Obama 37,662
Clinton 34,009
Total: 71,671
Total: 115,070
Pretty clear a number of Democrats voted for Cruz in WI to prolong the GOP contest and try to force the least attractive candidate on the GOP. Trump actually got what Romney got in 2012 WI. Plus point is almost all primaries are closed from now on. Indiana is an exception, however I think that Trump will be too far ahead there anyways (T40+, C30, K25???).
Supposedly Trump had a meeting with Paul Manafort Wednesday morning, Manafort will be having a much more prominent role going forward, very positive. Nice big Trump rally on Long Island with a number of endorsements from NY GOP types in the evening.0 -
Sales of Tunnock's tea cakes rocketed by 10 per cent after hardline Scottish nationalists called for a boycott of the treats.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3527341/Sales-snack-dubbed-Great-British-Tea-Cake-soar-Scottish-Nationalists-urge-boycott.html
LOL....come on now admit who went out and bought a packet? I don't think Tunnock's could have asked for better PR campaign for their British Tea Cakes.0 -
Perhaps it's you that needs to fully understand it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes we do but you clearly don't understand it.OllyT said:
I quite like it but I do not for a second think it is superior to other European countries.MaxPB said:
Well we never had a Vichy government, fascist dictator and didn't kill 6m people in gas chambers. That's a good start. The UK also abolished slavery before any other nation, gave women the right to vote before any other nation and achieved universal suffrage before any other nation.OllyT said:
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.Mortimer said:
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.foxinsoxuk said:
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.Casino_Royale said:
A man who hates his own country.Roger said:Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A classic disease of the British Left.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
It's sad that the left is so negative about this place. I kind of like it here. I'm not even resentful about the Empire, without it I would not be in this country.
By the way you know what they say about Godwin's Law
Wikipedia: "there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress. This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's law"
Now that is exactly what I suggest happens when you start claiming England is superior because the Nazis murdered 6m0 -
I'm still struggling to contemplate how a Tory 2015 Tory candidate can switch to a Corbyn led Labour party. I would have said it would be the same probability as Ken Clarke joining UKIP.Sean_F said:
Having leaflets aimed at different ethnic groups may come over as a bit patronising, but it's hardly "damaging, exploitative, and ugly." Labour and other parties do it as well.TheScreamingEagles said:Defection watch
Tory activist Shazia Awan: Zac Goldsmith’s damaging, exploitative and ugly campaign puts me off politics as a BME candidate
The former Conservative party parliamentary candidate for Leigh claims the Tory London mayoral campaign is dragging the party back to the days of Enoch Powell.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2016/04/tory-activist-shazia-awan-zac-goldsmith-s-damaging-exploitative-and-ugly
As you imply, I think she's made up her mind to switch sides, and is just looking for a pretext to do so.0 -
@Richard_Nabavi The chances of a full scale realignment of political parties in the near future are considerably higher than usual. Such a realignment is still firmly odds against but a Leave vote without a clear prospectus will put huge pressure on the Conservative party (and potentially open up options for the right of the Labour party that currently look closed). And a Remain vote doesn't look likely to put much to bed either.
I continue to believe that taking some of the epic odds on "any other party", "UKIP" and even possibly the "Lib Dems" for most seats is good value in these circumstances. Like all long shot bets, they will very probably lose. But they remain way too long, given the unusual stresses in British politics at present.0 -
So that means it's probably posturing.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm still struggling to contemplate how a Tory 2015 Tory candidate can switch to a Corbyn led Labour party. I would have said it would be the same probability as Ken Clarke joining UKIP.Sean_F said:
Having leaflets aimed at different ethnic groups may come over as a bit patronising, but it's hardly "damaging, exploitative, and ugly." Labour and other parties do it as well.TheScreamingEagles said:Defection watch
Tory activist Shazia Awan: Zac Goldsmith’s damaging, exploitative and ugly campaign puts me off politics as a BME candidate
The former Conservative party parliamentary candidate for Leigh claims the Tory London mayoral campaign is dragging the party back to the days of Enoch Powell.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2016/04/tory-activist-shazia-awan-zac-goldsmith-s-damaging-exploitative-and-ugly
As you imply, I think she's made up her mind to switch sides, and is just looking for a pretext to do so.0 -
Quiet with you and your Bernie rampingvolcanopete said:New York is the first Beeches Brook Bernie has to get over on April 19th.He is behind but closing.His momentum might just capture the NY zeitgeist,especially with a more organised campaign supported by organised labour and environmentalists.Don't forget "super delegates" changed their minds over Obama as well.Have a saver on Bernie with a view to trading out on 20th.He still beats Hillary on the head-to- heads. Are you feelin it yet? #FeelTheBern
London organisation at londonforbernie.com
#BlackcorrelationtoClintonvotesmattersformybankbalance0 -
Mr. Urquhart, if that level of political interference in Germany is accurate, is thoroughly despicable, and depressingly unsurprising.0
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That's the point I disagree with. I think the party would rapidly accept the result, and interpret it as a vote for leaving altogether rather than an EEA-style deal. Don't forget that, even amongst those who on balance think we should remain in the EU, there is very widespread concern in the party (and in the country as a whole, of course) at the scale of EU migration into the UK.AlastairMeeks said:Such a realignment is still firmly odds against but a Leave vote without a clear prospectus will put huge pressure on the Conservative party
What I see as the greater danger is the economic fallout.0 -
Trust me, at the appropriate time, the Tories will make it a massive story.AlastairMeeks said:In normal times this would be a massive story:
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/156191/jeremy-corbyn-says-his-brother-was-not-wrong
These are not normal times.0 -
Cruz not setting NY on fire.
http://nypost.com/2016/04/06/ted-cruzs-campaign-stop-in-the-bronx-is-a-complete-dud/only a dozen voters turned up
Presumably he is going to regret all those comments about "New York Values"0 -
The way German politicians have managed the political fallout from this situation is a credit to them. You can either act rationally, calmly and sensibly or you can be incendiary and antagonistic. Thankfully they choose the former- though it seems that many of my fellow pbERS would like them to pour fuel on the ethnic tensions.FrancisUrquhart said:
German minister 'told police to remove the word "rape" from reports about mass migrant sex attacks in Cologne on new Year's Eve'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3527771/German-minister-told-police-remove-word-rape-reports-mass-migrant-sex-attacks-Cologne-new-Year-s-Eve.html0 -
I seem to remember a lot of mockery on here from the Red Leicester Leavers about the Tampon Tax victory. It seems as though it may have been rather more significant than was first appreciated:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b01bd53c-fc98-11e5-b3f6-11d5706b613b.html?ftcamp=published_links/rss/brussels/feed//product#axzz458FGptnx
"Fed up with being dragged into political squabbles over VAT rates on everything from tampons to ebooks, the European Commission on Thursday proposed a major overhaul that would transfer decision-making on the tax from Brussels to national capitals."
"Pierre Moscovici, the European commissioner for tax, on Thursday said he was “keen to grant member states more autonomy on how to define their VAT reduced rates” and set out two options for reform.
One option under consideration by the commission would see the list of goods and services eligible for reduced rates updated more regularly, so making it more flexible. The current version has been little updated since the 1970s.
Another more radical option would be to scrap the list entirely so that national governments would have more freedom when deciding where to apply reduced rate, with only some guiding principles from the EU. This approach would mean scrapping the standard 15 per cent VAT rate altogether. Mr Moscovici said his intention is for governments to discuss which option they prefer ahead of the commission coming forward with legislation in 2017."
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There was a dismal pro Cruz article in The Times yesterday which noted that *only a few hundred* attended a Trump meeting in Wisconsin.
Honestly the media have lost their collective minds over Trump - almost every article is attempting to bash him whatever the criteria - if he wins it's not by enough or vulgar stupid voters, if someone else wins it's the nail in his coffin.
Presumably he is going to regret all those comments about "New York Values"Indigo said:Cruz not setting NY on fire.
http://nypost.com/2016/04/06/ted-cruzs-campaign-stop-in-the-bronx-is-a-complete-dud/only a dozen voters turned up
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Do you feel that governments should as a matter of course prevent public authorities from telling the truth to voters and journalists on matters that might be politically sensitive ?tyson said:The way German politicians have managed the political fallout from this situation is a credit to them. You can either act rationally, calmly and sensibly or you can be incendiary and antagonistic. Thankfully they choose the former- though it seems that many of my fellow pbERS would like them to pour fuel on the ethnic tensions.
FrancisUrquhart said:German minister 'told police to remove the word "rape" from reports about mass migrant sex attacks in Cologne on new Year's Eve'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3527771/German-minister-told-police-remove-word-rape-reports-mass-migrant-sex-attacks-Cologne-new-Year-s-Eve.html0 -
Is a rotating Taoiseach a bit like a whirling dervish? Or a spinning jenny?MaxPB said:
As if it wasn't already a complete farce.Richard_Nabavi said:Useful article on Ireland's attempt to form a government:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2016/role-of-rotating-taoiseach-now-on-offer-for-martin-in-equal-partnership-34606396.html0 -
After New York it will be mathematically impossible for him to win outright. It's hard to see how both Kasich and Cruz can justify staying in the race after NY if their only objective is to deny Trump a majority.Indigo said:Cruz not setting NY on fire.
http://nypost.com/2016/04/06/ted-cruzs-campaign-stop-in-the-bronx-is-a-complete-dud/only a dozen voters turned up
Presumably he is going to regret all those comments about "New York Values"0 -
The interesting bit is going to be watching the government (who have been embarrassingly open about slamming Trump) and the press find they suddenly need a working relationship with Trump if he wins. After having 8 years of Obama not liking the UK very much, the UK establishment seems determined to have another president not like us for the next 8 years.Plato_Says said:There was a dismal pro Cruz article in The Times yesterday which noted that *only a few hundred* attended a Trump meeting in Wisconsin.
Honestly the media have lost their collective minds over Trump - almost every article is attempting to bash him whatever the criteria - if he wins it's not by enough or vulgar stupid voters, if someone else wins it's the nail in his coffin.
Presumably he is going to regret all those comments about "New York Values"Indigo said:Cruz not setting NY on fire.
http://nypost.com/2016/04/06/ted-cruzs-campaign-stop-in-the-bronx-is-a-complete-dud/only a dozen voters turned up
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Question Time from Ilford, East London. On the panel: UKIP’s MP for Claction, Douglas Carswell, Conservative MP for Broxtowe Anna Soubry MP, economist Ruth Lea, novelist Irvine Welsh and Labour’s chief underpants model Chris Bryant MP.0
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Kasich is going to end up with less delegates than Rubio I reckon.williamglenn said:
After New York it will be mathematically impossible for him to win outright. It's hard to see how both Kasich and Cruz can justify staying in the race after NY if their only objective is to deny Trump a majority.Indigo said:Cruz not setting NY on fire.
http://nypost.com/2016/04/06/ted-cruzs-campaign-stop-in-the-bronx-is-a-complete-dud/only a dozen voters turned up
Presumably he is going to regret all those comments about "New York Values"0 -
Watch out for the Greens local election broadcast on Friday. It is genuinely laugh-out-loud funny (in a good way). Look out for Boris and Zak. Brilliant.0
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0
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Even if Cruz and Kasich stay in it will be interesting the effect it will have on their votes. Will some stay at home or vote Trump? The special interests won't rally around the winner but that doesn't mean the voters and the rest of the GOP won't.williamglenn said:
After New York it will be mathematically impossible for him to win outright. It's hard to see how both Kasich and Cruz can justify staying in the race after NY if their only objective is to deny Trump a majority.Indigo said:Cruz not setting NY on fire.
http://nypost.com/2016/04/06/ted-cruzs-campaign-stop-in-the-bronx-is-a-complete-dud/only a dozen voters turned up
Presumably he is going to regret all those comments about "New York Values"0 -
An automatic revolver?stjohn said:
Is a rotating Taoiseach a bit like a whirling dervish? Or a spinning jenny?MaxPB said:
As if it wasn't already a complete farce.Richard_Nabavi said:Useful article on Ireland's attempt to form a government:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2016/role-of-rotating-taoiseach-now-on-offer-for-martin-in-equal-partnership-34606396.html
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'You can either act rationally, calmly and sensibly...'tyson said:The way German politicians have managed the political fallout from this situation is a credit to them. You can either act rationally, calmly and sensibly or you can be incendiary and antagonistic. Thankfully they choose the former- though it seems that many of my fellow pbERS would like them to pour fuel on the ethnic tensions.
FrancisUrquhart said:German minister 'told police to remove the word "rape" from reports about mass migrant sex attacks in Cologne on new Year's Eve'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3527771/German-minister-told-police-remove-word-rape-reports-mass-migrant-sex-attacks-Cologne-new-Year-s-Eve.html
... and choose to ignore the rapes, by sweeping any mention of them under the carpet.
Genius stuff. One wonders if you would be so blasé if members of your own family had been subject to such attacks. I doubt it somehow.
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I doubt she will actually switch to Labour, but I have to admit I'm surprised to see you defending Zac Goldsmith's campaign.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm still struggling to contemplate how a Tory 2015 Tory candidate can switch to a Corbyn led Labour party. I would have said it would be the same probability as Ken Clarke joining UKIP.Sean_F said:
Having leaflets aimed at different ethnic groups may come over as a bit patronising, but it's hardly "damaging, exploitative, and ugly." Labour and other parties do it as well.TheScreamingEagles said:Defection watch
Tory activist Shazia Awan: Zac Goldsmith’s damaging, exploitative and ugly campaign puts me off politics as a BME candidate
The former Conservative party parliamentary candidate for Leigh claims the Tory London mayoral campaign is dragging the party back to the days of Enoch Powell.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2016/04/tory-activist-shazia-awan-zac-goldsmith-s-damaging-exploitative-and-ugly
As you imply, I think she's made up her mind to switch sides, and is just looking for a pretext to do so.
You've quite rightly said how disgusting Phil Woolas's campaign was, but I don't see how Goldsmith's is any different.0 -
New Thread New Thread
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You think it a good idea, do you, that politicians should interfere with the police's duty to investigate allegations of serious crimes?tyson said:The way German politicians have managed the political fallout from this situation is a credit to them. You can either act rationally, calmly and sensibly or you can be incendiary and antagonistic. Thankfully they choose the former- though it seems that many of my fellow pbERS would like them to pour fuel on the ethnic tensions.
FrancisUrquhart said:German minister 'told police to remove the word "rape" from reports about mass migrant sex attacks in Cologne on new Year's Eve'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3527771/German-minister-told-police-remove-word-rape-reports-mass-migrant-sex-attacks-Cologne-new-Year-s-Eve.html
How do you think such allegations can be properly investigated if they are not accurately described?
How do you think the victims might react when told that what they have reported will be described differently because this might be embarrassing for some politicians?
Why is it that people have a problem with telling the truth about a situation? There is nothing rational, calm or sensible about not telling the truth.
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No Tyson it really isn't. Sweeping it under the carpet and pretending it isn't a problem whilst implying the victims they are partially responsible (by bringing in segregation of public services) is definitely not something that should be considered creditable.tyson said:The way German politicians have managed the political fallout from this situation is a credit to them. You can either act rationally, calmly and sensibly or you can be incendiary and antagonistic. Thankfully they choose the former- though it seems that many of my fellow pbERS would like them to pour fuel on the ethnic tensions.
FrancisUrquhart said:German minister 'told police to remove the word "rape" from reports about mass migrant sex attacks in Cologne on new Year's Eve'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3527771/German-minister-told-police-remove-word-rape-reports-mass-migrant-sex-attacks-Cologne-new-Year-s-Eve.html
It is a shameful way to act and defending it is also a shameful position to take.0 -
Agreed on all points except the Lib Dems.AlastairMeeks said:@Richard_Nabavi The chances of a full scale realignment of political parties in the near future are considerably higher than usual. Such a realignment is still firmly odds against but a Leave vote without a clear prospectus will put huge pressure on the Conservative party (and potentially open up options for the right of the Labour party that currently look closed). And a Remain vote doesn't look likely to put much to bed either.
I continue to believe that taking some of the epic odds on "any other party", "UKIP" and even possibly the "Lib Dems" for most seats is good value in these circumstances. Like all long shot bets, they will very probably lose. But they remain way too long, given the unusual stresses in British politics at present.
You'll likely be pleased to hear that I have inadvertently already paid my annual subs and donation to the Tory party. As I hadn't realised that, you might be less pleased to hear that I'm also going to be matching it with a Leave donation.
I suspect the bad press re: 9m taxpayers money used on a leaflet warning us of the dangers of an issue about which there is a referendum will raise far more than 9m for Leave.
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