Could someone direct me to the text of the commitment to Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO would not be expanded to the Russian border? It is much asserted but the precise words seem very elusive.
Now you mention it I wasn't sure either, so have googled a bit. Here's the US version - basically we promised not to expand the military presence, then we didn't do it "substantially", then after the Crimean annexation we did:
I'm with Sam Goldwyn: a verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on. It seems extraordinary that Russia argue that an indefinite commitment, rather than a statement of intent, was given in conversation without ever being formally recorded.
I'm with Oscar Wilde: " Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth." Bring back antifrank.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
Mr. Glenn, is such a disintegration plausible, though?
Not that up on Russian history, but since the Muscovites took over when the Khans of Mongolia were thwarted it seems to have been a pretty stable country.
Personally I think that we should avoid getting into the Russia-Ukraine feud more than necessary - it's a classic example where it's unwise to take sides in a nationalist dispute, since what's happening is that people who just want to get on with life in reasonable amity (I know several people on both sides of the issue) are being whipped into rival nationalisms by unscrupulous and corrupt politicians on both sides.
We broke a promise to Gorbachev not to expand NATO to the Russian border and if we try to indulge Ukrainian nationalism as well, we shouldn't grumble if the Russians are unhelpful in other ways. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have had a free trade deal but we should make it clear that further integration is not going to happen for the forrseeable future. Making that clear might be a reasonable response to the Dutch vote.
Yep. A very reasoned position Nick and one I agree with entirely. Some of your Europhile fellow travellers (of whom Dr Fox was a perfect example yesterday evening) on here seem to think that any statement that doesn't support the EU regarding the Ukraine is showing support for Putin or is driven by more general opposition to the EU. For most people this is not the case. It is simply a recognition of the history to date as you have summarised it.
A couple of years ago, I thought that partitioning Ukraine was the only sensible solution.
And then Putin made it effectively impossible by invading.
Yep. I really don't think Putin is too bothered with a negotiated settlement on this. He believes he holds all the cards.
When dealing with Putin, one should remember he is somebody who believes, and has said, that the greatest tragedy of the 20th Century is the collapse of the USSR. It's certainly a view.
To correct that quote, he said 'geopolitical catastrophe'.
Your dismissive comment highlights why most in the West have a hard time processing the situation in Ukraine. We tend to see the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe (an unqualified good thing) and the collapse of the USSR as the same historic event when they are not.
People who look forward to Putin's Russia going the same way as the USSR should be careful what they wish for as the worst case scenario is not Putin being replaced by someone as bad or worse, but rather a Yugoslavia style break up on a continental scale.
Wouldn't be the end of the world. Putin being replaced by someone worse who was willing to use nukes just might be.
Personally I think that we should avoid getting into the Russia-Ukraine feud more than necessary - it's a classic example where it's unwise to take sides in a nationalist dispute, since what's happening is that people who just want to get on with life in reasonable amity (I know several people on both sides of the issue) are being whipped into rival nationalisms by unscrupulous and corrupt politicians on both sides.
We broke a promise to Gorbachev not to expand NATO to the Russian border and if we try to indulge Ukrainian nationalism as well, we shouldn't grumble if the Russians are unhelpful in other ways. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have had a free trade deal but we should make it clear that further integration is not going to happen for the forrseeable future. Making that clear might be a reasonable response to the Dutch vote.
Yep. A very reasoned position Nick and one I agree with entirely. Some of your Europhile fellow travellers (of whom Dr Fox was a perfect example yesterday evening) on here seem to think that any statement that doesn't support the EU regarding the Ukraine is showing support for Putin or is driven by more general opposition to the EU. For most people this is not the case. It is simply a recognition of the history to date as you have summarised it.
A couple of years ago, I thought that partitioning Ukraine was the only sensible solution.
And then Putin made it effectively impossible by invading.
Yep. I really don't think Putin is too bothered with a negotiated settlement on this. He believes he holds all the cards.
When dealing with Putin, one should remember he is somebody who believes, and has said, that the greatest tragedy of the 20th Century is the collapse of the USSR. It's certainly a view.
To correct that quote, he said 'geopolitical catastrophe'.
Your dismissive comment highlights why most in the West have a hard time processing the situation in Ukraine. We tend to see the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe (an unqualified good thing) and the collapse of the USSR as the same historic event when they are not.
People who look forward to Putin's Russia going the same way as the USSR should be careful what they wish for as the worst case scenario is not Putin being replaced by someone as bad or worse, but rather a Yugoslavia style break up on a continental scale.
I agree. Russia fomenting nationalism is a crazy strategy in the long term. It risks opening Pandora's box.
The dutch vote will just be ignored as usual as the people gave the wrong answer.
It's been proved time and time again that people just can't be trusted to vote on anything to do with Europe. Just leave it to the elite, they know best.
Actually, this is a particularly awkward one for the EU. The Dutch government ratified the treaty before it even had the referendum. If every other country has ratified the treaty (and I don't know if they have) then even if the Dutch government unratified it, then it would still stand.
(This is not an EU point, but a point with treaties generally: the point at which all parties ratify it is the point it comes into effect, regardless of what any country does subsequently. To give you an example of we unratified the Lisbon Treaty, it would have no effect because they changes to the EU had taken place at the point all countries ratified it.)
No that can't be right. Otherwise those who accused Cameron of betrayal and lying because he did not have a referendum on the Lisbon treaty when it was already in effect and binding on the UK before he gained office would be talking through their collective hats. Surely not.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
The dutch vote will just be ignored as usual as the people gave the wrong answer.
It's been proved time and time again that people just can't be trusted to vote on anything to do with Europe. Just leave it to the elite, they know best.
Actually, this is a particularly awkward one for the EU. The Dutch government ratified the treaty before it even had the referendum. If every other country has ratified the treaty (and I don't know if they have) then even if the Dutch government unratified it, then it would still stand.
(This is not an EU point, but a point with treaties generally: the point at which all parties ratify it is the point it comes into effect, regardless of what any country does subsequently. To give you an example of we unratified the Lisbon Treaty, it would have no effect because they changes to the EU had taken place at the point all countries ratified it.)
No that can't be right. Otherwise those who accused Cameron of betrayal and lying because he did not have a referendum on the Lisbon treaty when it was already in effect and binding on the UK before he gained office would be talking through their collective hats. Surely not.
I thought this point was made yesterday. If it turns out that the Dutch vote led to an unwinding of the treaty then it would make Dave and his supporters look a bit stupid.
Anyone got a list of the "facts" in this leaflet? They were flicking through one on the news and from what I briefly could read the text seemed far from factual, just vague pronouncements about how it there would be a "shock" to the economy and renegotiation could take "10 years".
I wouldn't put it past them to repeat the 3 million jobs lie.
What a bunch of shysters, taking us for absolute fools. Sadly they are probably right in most cases. Gah
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic and 'cultural' positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
In the end Dr Foxinsox is one of those sad people who have an innate distrust and fear of democracy and who see the EU as a means of limiting the powers of a democratically elected government. A typical Liberal Democrat as I have said before - neither liberal nor democratic.
Personally I think that we should avoid getting into the Russia-Ukraine feud more than necessary - it's a classic example where it's unwise to take sides in a nationalist dispute, since what's happening is that people who just want to get on with life in reasonable amity (I know several people on both sides of the issue) are being whipped into rival nationalisms by unscrupulous and corrupt politicians on both sides.
We broke a promise to Gorbachev not to expand NATO to the Russian border and if we try to indulge Ukrainian nationalism as well, we shouldn't grumble if the Russians are unhelpful in other ways. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have had a free trade deal but we should make it clear that further integration is not going to happen for the forrseeable future. Making that clear might be a reasonable response to the Dutch vote.
Yep. A very reasoned position Nick and one I agree with entirely. Some of your Europhile fellow travellers (of whom Dr Fox was a perfect example yesterday evening) on here seem to think that any statement that doesn't support the EU regarding the Ukraine is showing support for Putin or is driven by more general opposition to the EU. For most people this is not the case. It is simply a recognition of the history to date as you have summarised it.
A couple of years ago, I thought that partitioning Ukraine was the only sensible solution.
And then Putin made it effectively impossible by invading.
Yep. I really don't think Putin is too bothered with a negotiated settlement on this. He believes he holds all the cards.
Well how do you think this ends? Crimea has already gone, without any real opposition from the west. I suspect the occupied territories in eastern Ukraine will also go to Russia, de jure, after a pause of a few years.
I was wondering if you had any tips or predictions concerning the forthcoming Holyrood elections. I did quite well out of some of your predictions last year, and would be interested in your thoughts for this year.
Brexit risks drowning out some other important politics in our islands. The referendum should never have been permitted so close to the elections in the devolved governments.
Wouldn't be the end of the world. Putin being replaced by someone worse who was willing to use nukes just might be.
That's an interesting comment. I sincerely hope our political leaders are willing to use nukes, otherwise what's the point of them? If you remove the niggling doubt - as Corbyn has sought to do by openly saying he'd never push the button - you undermine a key element in our defence strategy. Mutually assured destruction kept the peace during the Cold War. You think of someone who wants to remove that clarity as 'worse'. If you cannot imagine any circumstances in which we should actually use our nuclear weapons then either: 1. You have a limited imagination; or 2. You don't think our way of life or liberty are worth fighting for
Personally I think that we should avoid getting into the Russia-Ukraine feud more than necessary - it's a classic example where it's unwise to take sides in a nationalist dispute, since what's happening is that people who just want to get on with life in reasonable amity (I know several people on both sides of the issue) are being whipped into rival nationalisms by unscrupulous and corrupt politicians on both sides.
We broke a promise to Gorbachev not to expand NATO to the Russian border and if we try to indulge Ukrainian nationalism as well, we shouldn't grumble if the Russians are unhelpful in other ways. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have had a free trade deal but we should make it clear that further integration is not going to happen for the forrseeable future. Making that clear might be a reasonable response to the Dutch vote.
On another subject, some of the Tory press is still going for Cameron to a point that seems to me exaggerated - the Mail today has another splash (Cameron's dad passed on assets in Jersey, which he might inherit) and an editorial, parts of which could have been in the Mirror (Buliingdon, not one of us, etc.).
This is presumably being driven by the referendum, but also perhaps by the perception that Cameron is going anyway, so they can damage him without permanent damage to the Tories. They're also whinging about not being able to tell us that some celeeb has had a threesome, meh.
The Daily Wail editor Dacre attacks Cameron because Cam thinks he's not deserving of a peerage.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic and 'cultural' positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
In the end Dr Foxinsox is one of those sad people who have an innate distrust and fear of democracy and who see the EU as a means of limiting the powers of a democratically elected government. A typical Liberal Democrat as I have said before - neither liberal nor democratic.
Teehee!
last night he was suggesting that democracy was especially important and that we should be spreading it to Ukraine. In spite of geopolitical concerns.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think you've got it the wrong way round on the EU/Russia. The possibility of joining the EU was first raised just after 2000 as a way of stopping the Russians from meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs. In fact, at every stage it has been the Ukrainians who have been pushing for EU help. Indeed, the current trade agreement was negotiated by Russian puppet Yanukovych in the hope of appeasing the pro-EU factions while not giving the EU any real influence. The current crisis began when Putin vetoed the deal as a step too far.
So this is the Ukrainian answer to Russian expansionism, not a Russian response to EU expansionism.
Are you familiar with the 'Fxxk the EU' tape by the fragrant Ms. Nuland?
No. Why? Is it relevant to my point in some way?
Since you mention it, yes. Since it records the US state department deciding upon the make up of the next Ukranian Government. And when the EU is brought up, the eponymous epiphet is used. Far be it from me to excuse the EU anything, but it's entirely obvious that in this instance they were acting as agents of US power. The Ukrainians knew it, the Russians knew it.
Have now looked it up. Don't actually see how that's in any way relevant, as it took place 12 years after the start of the process I describe and it does not (contrary to what you imply) suggest that the United States appointed the new government, merely helped them. It would have been surprising if they hadn't (they offered similar help to Blair and Miliband, after all)!
My point was that the EU involvement in Ukraine was a Ukrainian response to Russian aggression, not the other way around. The US is not germane to that.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think you've got it the wrong way round on the EU/Russia. The possibility of joining the EU was first raised just after 2000 as a way of stopping the Russians from meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs. In fact, at every stage it has been the Ukrainians who have been pushing for EU help. Indeed, the current trade agreement was negotiated by Russian puppet Yanukovych in the hope of appeasing the pro-EU factions while not giving the EU any real influence. The current crisis began when Putin vetoed the deal as a step too far.
So this is the Ukrainian answer to Russian expansionism, not a Russian response to EU expansionism.
Are you familiar with the 'Fxxk the EU' tape by the fragrant Ms. Nuland?
No. Why? Is it relevant to my point in some way?
Since you mention it, yes. Since it records the US state department deciding upon the make up of the next Ukranian Government. And when the EU is brought up, the eponymous epiphet is used. Far be it from me to excuse the EU anything, but it's entirely obvious that in this instance they were acting as agents of US power. The Ukrainians knew it, the Russians knew it.
Russia as a great power is played out. Her best people can be found in voluntary exile in Western Europe and the USA. Her currency is a derivative of the volatile oil price, and her economy a one-trick pony. Her armed forces are sufficient to bludgeon her former colonies, but would fail miserably in a shooting war with NATO or China.
We missed a historic opportunity to make Russia into a more ordinary European country in the 1990s.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
They all have better voting systems than we do, Mr Mortimer!
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
They all have better voting systems than we do, Mr Mortimer!
Nah - we have much more stable governments with, ironically, more checks and balances despite the disproportionate winner takes all basis.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
They all have better voting systems than we do, Mr Mortimer!
I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think you've got it the wrong way round on the EU/Russia. The possibility of joining the EU was first raised just after 2000 as a way of stopping the Russians from meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs. In fact, at every stage it has been the Ukrainians who have been pushing for EU help. Indeed, the current trade agreement was negotiated by Russian puppet Yanukovych in the hope of appeasing the pro-EU factions while not giving the EU any real influence. The current crisis began when Putin vetoed the deal as a step too far.
So this is the Ukrainian answer to Russian expansionism, not a Russian response to EU expansionism.
'at every stage it has been the Ukrainians who have been pushing for EU help'...well the problem is, not all of them. That's what I was getting at.
Does Russia claim a special position vis-a-vis Ukraine? Yes it does. Is that unreasonable? Very possibly. But Ukraine as an entity can't survive being fully attached to one or other of the two rival power blocs that are in play here - and it won't. The die is cast now.
There's some interesting polling in this Pew Center research from 2014 which shows the stark regional divides in Ukraine.
In western Ukraine, 68% said it was better to close relations with the EU, 8% Russia, 17% both in eastern Ukraine the numbers are 21% EU, 30% Russia, 35%
I also find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with Nick P here. We did make commitments to Russia in this area in order to bring the Cold War to a peaceful end, which was a massive boon to the world. We should honour those I think.
As I posted last night, Russia as a power is in very steep and irreversible decline - stamping all over her at this juncture is unnecessary and brings entirely avoidable risks.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
I don't think that holds up at all. We *pity* you. It's a totally different emotion going on.
Is it any wonder the Tories are moribund in Scotland , when the best they can deploy are dummies like you. There is no deal signed , not even for a penny. Just for someone as thick as you it is an MOU, nothing more and not a penny signed up.
Since no details have been released about the contents of the document, you have no idea whether Sturgeon has agreed to sell Scotland for a bag of beans, or her own island in the South China Sea.
One can now understand why someone of such limited intelligence as yours, would share Donnachie's views on the vile doctored photographs of the Moors murderers. Jog on, Malky.
Thicko, you mean these that were published by BBC. Maybe you would have seen if on CBBC thicko. Hopefully you can understand the big words.
The memorandum stated that its purpose was to set out the "basis and general principles for initial discussions" on how SinoFortone and CR3 can "develop and fund major infrastructure projects in Scotland."
It also stated that the memorandum "is intended as a statement of intent and a platform to share confidential information, not a binding legal agreement" and that it did not represent a commitment of funds.
And it said that "each party may make public reference to the existence of this MOU as it thinks relevant and appropriate, provided that each party will obtain the approval of the other parties for the contents of any press release relating to the terms of this MOU prior to issue of such press release."
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic and 'cultural' positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
In the end Dr Foxinsox is one of those sad people who have an innate distrust and fear of democracy and who see the EU as a means of limiting the powers of a democratically elected government. A typical Liberal Democrat as I have said before - neither liberal nor democratic.
On the contrary, I am a notoriously jolly and upbeat person who believes in democratic governments and wants to see good democratic practice spread. .
Mr Tyndall does not accurately report my views! But best do some work. I need to count our strikers so we know what to cover...
Anyone got a list of the "facts" in this leaflet? They were flicking through one on the news and from what I briefly could read the text seemed far from factual, just vague pronouncements about how it there would be a "shock" to the economy and renegotiation could take "10 years".
I wouldn't put it past them to repeat the 3 million jobs lie.
What a bunch of shysters, taking us for absolute fools. Sadly they are probably right in most cases. Gah
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic and 'cultural' positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
In the end Dr Foxinsox is one of those sad people who have an innate distrust and fear of democracy and who see the EU as a means of limiting the powers of a democratically elected government. A typical Liberal Democrat as I have said before - neither liberal nor democratic.
On the contrary, I am a notoriously jolly and upbeat person who believes in democratic governments and wants to see good democratic practice spread. .
Mr Tyndall does not accurately report my views! But best do some work. I need to count our strikers so we know what to cover...
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
Mr. Blue, haven't the Russian armed forces benefited from Putin buying them a lot of swanky new gear?
Generally, NATO members don't meet their spending commitments.
He has, but in technological terms they are still falling behind. It's not as fun as comparing an F-22 to a Su-35, but the serviceability and training regimes of NATO are more robust and persistent, which would make a huge difference in a shooting war.
Russia's economy is not much bigger than that of the Netherlands. I agree the other countries should hit 2%, but in reality there's no way Russia can compete in the long term alone, purely on economics. She can cooperate with China for now to achieve economies of scale, but in the long run the Chinese will ditch them and run their own programmes.
Blue Rog..Do you think the Eu will ignore the UK Leave vote....what fun.
The UK will invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty if we vote for Brexit. There is no "ignore" option
Just as the EU is not in a position to ignore the Dutch vote.
The Dutch government might choose to ignore it, just as our government could ignore a Leave vote. If the Dutch government revokes it's ratification of this agreement then since the agreement hasn't passed yet and needs unanimity it fails, there is no ignore option there either.
Absolutely.
Do you know the ratification status with other EU countries?
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
They all have better voting systems than we do, Mr Mortimer!
Like Ireland, right?
Yes indeed, Mr Quidder. It is much better that the electoral process should take a bit longer but end up with a government which has general support; than that we should go charging ahead and end up with an all-powerful government which cannot even get the support of 25% of the electorate.
That is why Cameron is such a weak prime minister.
I was wondering if you had any tips or predictions concerning the forthcoming Holyrood elections. I did quite well out of some of your predictions last year, and would be interested in your thoughts for this year.
Brexit risks drowning out some other important politics in our islands. The referendum should never have been permitted so close to the elections in the devolved governments.
Fox, I cannot see there being much value this year unless there is a market on how many list seats the parties get. I expect Labour to be also rans but still get 20-25 list seats. Tories I hope very few but likely to be 13-18. Lib Dems are toast. Greens may do well as they are seen as left wing and for Yes so given SNP are sure to win , they are most likely to pick up votes for people who want someone to keep SNP in check a bit. Tories and Labour are both running pathetic campaigns.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think you've got it the wrong way round on the EU/Russia. The possibility of joining the EU was first raised just after 2000 as a way of stopping the Russians from meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs. In fact, at every stage it has been the Ukrainians who have been pushing for EU help. Indeed, the current trade agreement was negotiated by Russian puppet Yanukovych in the hope of appeasing the pro-EU factions while not giving the EU any real influence. The current crisis began when Putin vetoed the deal as a step too far.
So this is the Ukrainian answer to Russian expansionism, not a Russian response to EU expansionism.
'at every stage it has been the Ukrainians who have been pushing for EU help'...well the problem is, not all of them. That's what I was getting at.
Does Russia claim a special position vis-a-vis Ukraine? Yes it does. Is that unreasonable? Very possibly. But Ukraine as an entity can't survive being fully attached to one or other of the two rival power blocs that are in play here - and it won't. The die is cast now.
There's some interesting polling in this Pew Center research from 2014 which shows the stark regional divides in Ukraine.
In western Ukraine, 68% said it was better to close relations with the EU, 8% Russia, 17% both in eastern Ukraine the numbers are 21% EU, 30% Russia, 35%
I also find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with Nick P here. We did make commitments to Russia in this area in order to bring the Cold War to a peaceful end, which was a massive boon to the world. We should honour those I think.
As I posted last night, Russia as a power is in very steep and irreversible decline - stamping all over her at this juncture is unnecessary and brings entirely avoidable risks.
Then again, there is the little matter of the Budapest Memorandum, which was a proper deal, signed and sealed with kisses, that allowed Ukraine to rid itself of its nuclear weapons with accession to the NPT.
Russia's actions have comprehensively borken the deal that they signed (*). Do you want us to keep the commitments we made in the same deal? DO you want us to honour it?
The only country demonstrably stamping other overs is Russia. Passively condoning such actions rarely ends well.
(*) You can argue Russia started breaking it years ago when they used gas supplies as a hammer against Ukraine's government.
Well how do you think this ends? Crimea has already gone, without any real opposition from the west. I suspect the occupied territories in eastern Ukraine will also go to Russia, de jure, after a pause of a few years.
I suspect you are right. But then I have never really been a great one for the integrity of countries - particularly those which have been so fluid in their boundaries - against the wishes of local populations. It is why I supported Scottish Independence.
This doesn't in any way mean I support what Putin is doing. I just recognise that the situation is fluid and far more nuanced than many on here like to claim and that - for all that I think they will regret it - there appears to be a pro Russian majority in the East of Ukraine and they should be allowed to decide for themselves who governs them.
There are no good guys in this as far as the politicians go. Putin is clearly (to my mind at least) the worst of them but the actions of the Ukranian Government are worthy of criticism as well. One reason why I think the Dutch were right to decide we should stay out of it, at least as far as formal treaties go.
To correct that quote, he said 'geopolitical catastrophe'.
Your dismissive comment highlights why most in the West have a hard time processing the situation in Ukraine. We tend to see the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe (an unqualified good thing) and the collapse of the USSR as the same historic event when they are not.
People who look forward to Putin's Russia going the same way as the USSR should be careful what they wish for as the worst case scenario is not Putin being replaced by someone as bad or worse, but rather a Yugoslavia style break up on a continental scale.
I'm reading Robert Service's End of the Cold War at the moment. It's well worth a read, because it makes it clear the USSR was on the brink economic collapse due to the low price of oil. The eastern European countries were in hock to Western banks, and Russia was far from self sufficient in food.
The reforms that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union were forced on them by circumstance, they were not the result of considered choices.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
I don't think that holds up at all. We *pity* you. It's a totally different emotion going on.
Hmmm.
So when I am told I hate the UK and its history, that I am a traitor, that Labour is the party of vested interests, the feckless and the workshy, and so on, that is pity, not hate. I am not so sure. It sounds very angry to me :-)
Blue Rog..Do you think the Eu will ignore the UK Leave vote....what fun.
The UK will invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty if we vote for Brexit. There is no "ignore" option
Just as the EU is not in a position to ignore the Dutch vote.
The Dutch government might choose to ignore it, just as our government could ignore a Leave vote. If the Dutch government revokes it's ratification of this agreement then since the agreement hasn't passed yet and needs unanimity it fails, there is no ignore option there either.
Absolutely.
Do you know the ratification status with other EU countries?
I believe they've all ratified it already and it's just waiting for the Dutch and then the European Council to confirm ratification.
A Dutch friend of mine says after last night he expects all future EU-related agreements to get a referendum (like the Irish) and to fail so we should not expect further EU integration Treaties any time soon.
To correct that quote, he said 'geopolitical catastrophe'.
Your dismissive comment highlights why most in the West have a hard time processing the situation in Ukraine. We tend to see the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe (an unqualified good thing) and the collapse of the USSR as the same historic event when they are not.
People who look forward to Putin's Russia going the same way as the USSR should be careful what they wish for as the worst case scenario is not Putin being replaced by someone as bad or worse, but rather a Yugoslavia style break up on a continental scale.
I'm reading Robert Service's End of the Cold War at the moment. It's well worth a read, because it makes it clear the USSR was on the brink economic collapse due to the low price of oil. The eastern European countries were in hock to Western banks, and Russia was far from self sufficient in food.
The reforms that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union were forced on them by circumstance, they were not the result of considered choices.
My understanding was that it was not the considered choice of the west either - we liked the initial outcome, but we were radically unprepared for it. If we had been, history might have taken a better course in the long term.
We'd spent forty years trying to destabilise the USSR, and then it suddenly happens - not with a whimper, but with a (fortunately non-nuclear) bang.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
They all have better voting systems than we do, Mr Mortimer!
Like Ireland, right?
Yes indeed, Mr Quidder. It is much better that the electoral process should take a bit longer but end up with a government which has general support; than that we should go charging ahead and end up with an all-powerful government which cannot even get the support of 25% of the electorate.
That is why Cameron is such a weak prime minister.
One of the great failing of the PM's critics is they have and continue to underestimate him and rather begs the question of you as a LibDem that if Cameron is a "weak prime minister" where does that leave Tim Farron as leader of a rump party of eight MP's?
Presently at national level the Liberal Democrats cannot even aspire to "weak" from their current position of total irrelevance.
To correct that quote, he said 'geopolitical catastrophe'.
Your dismissive comment highlights why most in the West have a hard time processing the situation in Ukraine. We tend to see the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe (an unqualified good thing) and the collapse of the USSR as the same historic event when they are not.
People who look forward to Putin's Russia going the same way as the USSR should be careful what they wish for as the worst case scenario is not Putin being replaced by someone as bad or worse, but rather a Yugoslavia style break up on a continental scale.
I'm reading Robert Service's End of the Cold War at the moment. It's well worth a read, because it makes it clear the USSR was on the brink economic collapse due to the low price of oil. The eastern European countries were in hock to Western banks, and Russia was far from self sufficient in food.
The reforms that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union were forced on them by circumstance, they were not the result of considered choices.
What's so fascinating about these kinds of accounts is how different they are from the received wisdom of the time.
In the mid/late 1980s, while it was well known that Russia had economic difficulties (even if there were some in the Labour Party who still saw it as a model to follow, and who viewed Gorbachev as a saintly messiah rather than a man acting out of pragmatic necessity) there were very few commentators who recognised the full scale of them and even fewer who foresaw the wholesale and rapid collapse of Soviet political power (at home and abroad).
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
I am sniggering
When are you going to join the refugee flood to Bavaria ? You did promise.
The dutch vote will just be ignored as usual as the people gave the wrong answer.
It's been proved time and time again that people just can't be trusted to vote on anything to do with Europe. Just leave it to the elite, they know best.
Actually, this is a particularly awkward one for the EU. The Dutch government ratified the treaty before it even had the referendum. If every other country has ratified the treaty (and I don't know if they have) then even if the Dutch government unratified it, then it would still stand.
(This is not an EU point, but a point with treaties generally: the point at which all parties ratify it is the point it comes into effect, regardless of what any country does subsequently. To give you an example of we unratified the Lisbon Treaty, it would have no effect because they changes to the EU had taken place at the point all countries ratified it.)
No that can't be right. Otherwise those who accused Cameron of betrayal and lying because he did not have a referendum on the Lisbon treaty when it was already in effect and binding on the UK before he gained office would be talking through their collective hats. Surely not.
I thought this point was made yesterday. If it turns out that the Dutch vote led to an unwinding of the treaty then it would make Dave and his supporters look a bit stupid.
The rather important difference is that this treaty has not yet been fully ratified and is not in effect.
The father of a friend of mine cleared a shop in Tokyo once. He broke wind - silently but violently - and it was thought that a gas leak had occurred, which, I suppose, it had.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
Of course Orwell was conflating 'England' with GB or Britain, which rather blunts the impact every time some wee Anglo nationalist quotes from that essay.
The dutch vote will just be ignored as usual as the people gave the wrong answer.
It's been proved time and time again that people just can't be trusted to vote on anything to do with Europe. Just leave it to the elite, they know best.
Actually, this is a particularly awkward one for the EU. The Dutch government ratified the treaty before it even had the referendum. If every other country has ratified the treaty (and I don't know if they have) then even if the Dutch government unratified it, then it would still stand.
(This is not an EU point, but a point with treaties generally: the point at which all parties ratify it is the point it comes into effect, regardless of what any country does subsequently. To give you an example of we unratified the Lisbon Treaty, it would have no effect because they changes to the EU had taken place at the point all countries ratified it.)
Except the Ukraine-EU agreement hasn't been ratified yet. The Dutch government is still within its liberties to reverse its ratification because ratification is not yet complete. Under the law Dutch ratification is legally suspended until after Parliament has reacted to this referendum and as such ratification can not be completed.
If ratification was complete then the Dutch couldn't do anything about it.
To correct that quote, he said 'geopolitical catastrophe'.
Your dismissive comment highlights why most in the West have a hard time processing the situation in Ukraine. We tend to see the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe (an unqualified good thing) and the collapse of the USSR as the same historic event when they are not.
People who look forward to Putin's Russia going the same way as the USSR should be careful what they wish for as the worst case scenario is not Putin being replaced by someone as bad or worse, but rather a Yugoslavia style break up on a continental scale.
I'm reading Robert Service's End of the Cold War at the moment. It's well worth a read, because it makes it clear the USSR was on the brink economic collapse due to the low price of oil. The eastern European countries were in hock to Western banks, and Russia was far from self sufficient in food.
The reforms that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union were forced on them by circumstance, they were not the result of considered choices.
What's so fascinating about these kinds of accounts is how different they are from the received wisdom of the time.
In the mid/late 1980s, while it was well known that Russia had economic difficulties (even if there were some in the Labour Party who still saw it as a model to follow, and who viewed Gorbachev as a saintly messiah rather than a man acting out of pragmatic necessity) there were very few commentators who recognised the full scale of them and even fewer who foresaw the wholesale and rapid collapse of Soviet political power (at home and abroad).
There's a lesson or two there for us.
Perhaps that was because the Russians were lying to themselves about the state of their economy and the problems it faced. Many targets had been missed since the 1960s, yet they lied to themselves constantly. Low-level bureaucrats lied to upper-level bureaucrats, who then lied to their superiors, and eventually the tangled mess of lies reached the Politburo.
Then the Politburo wondered why their system was failing when the figures were so good (or not as bad as they really were).
Western intelligence agencies got internal Soviet figures, which themselves were lies.
Blue Rog..Do you think the Eu will ignore the UK Leave vote....what fun.
The UK will invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty if we vote for Brexit. There is no "ignore" option
Just as the EU is not in a position to ignore the Dutch vote.
The Dutch government might choose to ignore it, just as our government could ignore a Leave vote. If the Dutch government revokes it's ratification of this agreement then since the agreement hasn't passed yet and needs unanimity it fails, there is no ignore option there either.
Absolutely.
Do you know the ratification status with other EU countries?
I believe they've all ratified it already and it's just waiting for the Dutch and then the European Council to confirm ratification.
A Dutch friend of mine says after last night he expects all future EU-related agreements to get a referendum (like the Irish) and to fail so we should not expect further EU integration Treaties any time soon.
Perhaps but the EU has already foreseen that, hence the provisions in Lisbon that allow further integration without treaties.
I was wondering if you had any tips or predictions concerning the forthcoming Holyrood elections. I did quite well out of some of your predictions last year, and would be interested in your thoughts for this year.
Brexit risks drowning out some other important politics in our islands. The referendum should never have been permitted so close to the elections in the devolved governments.
Fox, I cannot see there being much value this year unless there is a market on how many list seats the parties get. I expect Labour to be also rans but still get 20-25 list seats. Tories I hope very few but likely to be 13-18. Lib Dems are toast. Greens may do well as they are seen as left wing and for Yes so given SNP are sure to win , they are most likely to pick up votes for people who want someone to keep SNP in check a bit. Tories and Labour are both running pathetic campaigns.
The rebranding of the "Conservative and Unionist Party" to the "Ruth Davidson for Second Place Anti-Referendum Party" is an interesting decision.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
Of course Orwell was conflating 'England' with GB or Britain, which rather blunts the impact every time some wee Anglo nationalist quotes from that essay.
No he wasn't. He was well aware of Irish and Scottish nationalist movements.
Blue Rog..Do you think the Eu will ignore the UK Leave vote....what fun.
The UK will invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty if we vote for Brexit. There is no "ignore" option
Just as the EU is not in a position to ignore the Dutch vote.
The Dutch government might choose to ignore it, just as our government could ignore a Leave vote. If the Dutch government revokes it's ratification of this agreement then since the agreement hasn't passed yet and needs unanimity it fails, there is no ignore option there either.
Absolutely.
Do you know the ratification status with other EU countries?
I believe they've all ratified it already and it's just waiting for the Dutch and then the European Council to confirm ratification.
A Dutch friend of mine says after last night he expects all future EU-related agreements to get a referendum (like the Irish) and to fail so we should not expect further EU integration Treaties any time soon.
Perhaps but the EU has already foreseen that, hence the provisions in Lisbon that allow further integration without treaties.
Indeed hence those who are saying we should vote to Remain in the EU only to extract further concessions next treaty may be on a hiding to nothing. With the Irish being perennial naysayers, the Dutch now likely to be the same let alone our referendum lock - plus the provisions in Lisbon, its likely we'll not see another treaty after Lisbon for many years to come.
To correct that quote, he said 'geopolitical catastrophe'.
Your dismissive comment highlights why most in the West have a hard time processing the situation in Ukraine. We tend to see the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe (an unqualified good thing) and the collapse of the USSR as the same historic event when they are not.
People who look forward to Putin's Russia going the same way as the USSR should be careful what they wish for as the worst case scenario is not Putin being replaced by someone as bad or worse, but rather a Yugoslavia style break up on a continental scale.
I'm reading Robert Service's End of the Cold War at the moment. It's well worth a read, because it makes it clear the USSR was on the brink economic collapse due to the low price of oil. The eastern European countries were in hock to Western banks, and Russia was far from self sufficient in food.
The reforms that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union were forced on them by circumstance, they were not the result of considered choices.
What's so fascinating about these kinds of accounts is how different they are from the received wisdom of the time.
In the mid/late 1980s, while it was well known that Russia had economic difficulties (even if there were some in the Labour Party who still saw it as a model to follow, and who viewed Gorbachev as a saintly messiah rather than a man acting out of pragmatic necessity) there were very few commentators who recognised the full scale of them and even fewer who foresaw the wholesale and rapid collapse of Soviet political power (at home and abroad).
There's a lesson or two there for us.
Perhaps that was because the Russians were lying to themselves about the state of their economy and the problems it faced. Many targets had been missed since the 1960s, yet they lied to themselves constantly. Low-level bureaucrats lied to upper-level bureaucrats, who then lied to their superiors, and eventually the tangled mess of lies reached the Politburo.
Then the Politburo wondered why their system was failing when the figures were so good (or not as bad as they really were).
Western intelligence agencies got internal Soviet figures, which themselves were lies.
Yes, there was a whole sub-industry in economics based on trying to work out what was really going on in the USSR and its satellites. It did a lot of very good work, some of which has enduring relevance for studying places like China today.
IMHO, Mikhail Gorbachev is the closest the Russians ever came to having a sensible moderate leader with his head screwed on. Almost all the rest have been autocrats.
Yeltsin was basically harmless, mainly because he was drunk and fooling around most of the time, but he was also totally incompetent and his failure in office arguably led Russia down a resurgent nationalist path towards the end of the 1990s.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
I am sniggering
When are you going to join the refugee flood to Bavaria ? You did promise.
when stuck , wheel out and repeat old lies, the refuge of the unprincipled.
The dutch vote will just be ignored as usual as the people gave the wrong answer.
It's been proved time and time again that people just can't be trusted to vote on anything to do with Europe. Just leave it to the elite, they know best.
Actually, this is a particularly awkward one for the EU. The Dutch government ratified the treaty before it even had the referendum. If every other country has ratified the treaty (and I don't know if they have) then even if the Dutch government unratified it, then it would still stand.
(This is not an EU point, but a point with treaties generally: the point at which all parties ratify it is the point it comes into effect, regardless of what any country does subsequently. To give you an example of we unratified the Lisbon Treaty, it would have no effect because they changes to the EU had taken place at the point all countries ratified it.)
No that can't be right. Otherwise those who accused Cameron of betrayal and lying because he did not have a referendum on the Lisbon treaty when it was already in effect and binding on the UK before he gained office would be talking through their collective hats. Surely not.
Wrong sort of lying. Cameron's speciality is unqualified promises to do things that he has, or might have, no power to deliver.
The "reducing immigration to 10's of thousands" is a case in point, when 200k+ immigrants a year are arriving from the EU he doesn't have the faintest chance of reducing immigration to 10's of thousands, but he lets people believe that he does, and they looks surprised and disappointed when he can't deliver it.
Same with the EU renegotiation, many sceptics here said since early last year that Cameron wasn't going to come back with any more that a little bit of tinsel from the EU renegotiations, many Cameroon sages shook their wise heads and told us to have a bit of faith and wait for the results of the renegotiation, and lo it came to pass, the most pitiful bit of tinsel was revealed with a great deal of backslapping and mutual congratulation of his supporters.
Lisbon it was always likely that Brown would have ratified the treaty before Cameron could do anything about it, but once more he chose to draw a veil over his likely powerlessness and waxed lyrical about how the world would be a better place once he held his referendum on it.
People don't trust Cameron because he isnt straightforward, he lives for dissembling and PR bullshit (see the recent four or was it five updates on his status vis-a-vis the Panama Papers) and he consistently massively over promises and under delivers.
Of course Orwell was conflating 'England' with GB or Britain, which rather blunts the impact every time some wee Anglo nationalist quotes from that essay.
Orwell was not conflating the two. He was always very clear to make the distinction between England and Britain and to recognise the differences between England and Scotland
"You have an English or Anglicized upper class, and a Scottish working class which speaks with a markedly different accent, or even, part of the time, in a different language. This is a more dangerous kind of class division than any now existing in England. Given favourable circumstances it might develop in an ugly way…"
And for all that I like Orwell he did have a rather bigoted view of the Scots.
"A girlfriend, Kay Ekevall, told the BBC that he so disliked Scotsmen he preferred to cross the road rather than be introduced to the poet Edwin Muir. “He just had this blind prejudice because of what he called the whisky-swilling planters in Burma that he’d met,” she said. “So he lumped all Scotsmen together.”
I was wondering if you had any tips or predictions concerning the forthcoming Holyrood elections. I did quite well out of some of your predictions last year, and would be interested in your thoughts for this year.
Brexit risks drowning out some other important politics in our islands. The referendum should never have been permitted so close to the elections in the devolved governments.
Fox, I cannot see there being much value this year unless there is a market on how many list seats the parties get. I expect Labour to be also rans but still get 20-25 list seats. Tories I hope very few but likely to be 13-18. Lib Dems are toast. Greens may do well as they are seen as left wing and for Yes so given SNP are sure to win , they are most likely to pick up votes for people who want someone to keep SNP in check a bit. Tories and Labour are both running pathetic campaigns.
The rebranding of the "Conservative and Unionist Party" to the "Ruth Davidson for Second Place Anti-Referendum Party" is an interesting decision.
Very bizarre, practicing for her Westminster campaign perhaps.
'Of course Orwell was conflating 'England' with GB or Britain, which rather blunts the impact every time some wee Anglo nationalist quotes from that essay.'
No he wasn't. He was well aware of Irish and Scottish nationalist movements.
Hard luck, I've just finished re-reading the 1940-43 collection of Orwell's writings.
'I have spoken all the while of ‘the nation’, ‘England’, ‘Britain’, as though forty-five million souls could somehow be treated as a unit. But is not England notoriously two nations, the rich and the poor? Dare one pretend that there is anything in common between people with £100,000 a year and people with £1 a week? And even Welsh and Scottish readers are likely to have been offended because I have used the word ‘England’ oftener than ‘Britain’, as though the whole population dwelt in London and the Home Counties and neither north nor west possessed a culture of its own.
One gets a better view of this question if one considers the minor point first. It is quite true that the so-called races of Britain feel themselves to be very different from one another. A Scotsman, for instance, does not thank you if you call him an Englishman. You can see the hesitation we feel on this point by the fact that we call our islands by no less than six different names, England, Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom and, in very exalted moments, Albion. Even the differences between north and south England loom large in our own eyes. But somehow these differences fade away the moment that any two Britons are confronted by a European. It is very rare to meet a foreigner, other than an American, who can distinguish between English and Scots or even English and Irish. To a Frenchman, the Breton and the Auvergnat seem very different beings, and the accent of Marseilles is a stock joke in Paris. Yet we speak of ‘France’ and ‘the French’, recognizing France as an entity, a single civilization, which in fact it is. So also with ourselves. Looked at from the outsider even the cockney and the Yorkshireman have a strong family resemblance.'
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
I am sniggering
When are you going to join the refugee flood to Bavaria ? You did promise.
when stuck , wheel out and repeat old lies, the refuge of the unprincipled.
Glad to hear that the bread-winner in your family has kept her job. I guess your promised move to Germany can wait. Needs must.
Blue Rog..Do you think the Eu will ignore the UK Leave vote....what fun.
The UK will invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty if we vote for Brexit. There is no "ignore" option
Just as the EU is not in a position to ignore the Dutch vote.
The Dutch government might choose to ignore it, just as our government could ignore a Leave vote. If the Dutch government revokes it's ratification of this agreement then since the agreement hasn't passed yet and needs unanimity it fails, there is no ignore option there either.
Absolutely.
Do you know the ratification status with other EU countries?
I believe they've all ratified it already and it's just waiting for the Dutch and then the European Council to confirm ratification.
A Dutch friend of mine says after last night he expects all future EU-related agreements to get a referendum (like the Irish) and to fail so we should not expect further EU integration Treaties any time soon.
Perhaps but the EU has already foreseen that, hence the provisions in Lisbon that allow further integration without treaties.
Indeed hence those who are saying we should vote to Remain in the EU only to extract further concessions next treaty may be on a hiding to nothing. With the Irish being perennial naysayers, the Dutch now likely to be the same let alone our referendum lock - plus the provisions in Lisbon, its likely we'll not see another treaty after Lisbon for many years to come.
The EU only interpret Yes votes to Europe one way.
The dutch vote will just be ignored as usual as the people gave the wrong answer.
It's been proved time and time again that people just can't be trusted to vote on anything to do with Europe. Just leave it to the elite, they know best.
Actually, this is a particularly awkward one for the EU. The Dutch government ratified the treaty before it even had the referendum. If every other country has ratified the treaty (and I don't know if they have) then even if the Dutch government unratified it, then it would still stand.
(This is not an EU point, but a point with treaties generally: the point at which all parties ratify it is the point it comes into effect, regardless of what any country does subsequently. To give you an example of we unratified the Lisbon Treaty, it would have no effect because they changes to the EU had taken place at the point all countries ratified it.)
No that can't be right. Otherwise those who accused Cameron of betrayal and lying because he did not have a referendum on the Lisbon treaty when it was already in effect and binding on the UK before he gained office would be talking through their collective hats. Surely not.
(Snip)
Lisbon it was always likely that Brown would have ratified the treaty before Cameron could do anything about it, but once more he chose to draw a veil over his likely powerlessness and waxed lyrical about how the world would be a better place once he held his referendum on it.
(Snip)
I'm not sure that takes into account the election-that-never-was and other timings. The Irish only voted for the treaty in 2009; Cameron's comments about a referendum were made in 2007. The mood music was that Brown was going to call an early election in 2007; if he had done so, and Cameron had won, then he could have held a referendum on Lisbon.
Anyone got a list of the "facts" in this leaflet? They were flicking through one on the news and from what I briefly could read the text seemed far from factual, just vague pronouncements about how it there would be a "shock" to the economy and renegotiation could take "10 years".
I wouldn't put it past them to repeat the 3 million jobs lie.
What a bunch of shysters, taking us for absolute fools. Sadly they are probably right in most cases. Gah
Boris mentioned that it had the 3 millions jobs lie in his rant earlier.
'Of course Orwell was conflating 'England' with GB or Britain, which rather blunts the impact every time some wee Anglo nationalist quotes from that essay.'
No he wasn't. He was well aware of Irish and Scottish nationalist movements.
Hard luck, I've just finished re-reading the 1940-43 collection of Orwell's writings.
'I have spoken all the while of ‘the nation’, ‘England’, ‘Britain’, as though forty-five million souls could somehow be treated as a unit. But is not England notoriously two nations, the rich and the poor? Dare one pretend that there is anything in common between people with £100,000 a year and people with £1 a week? And even Welsh and Scottish readers are likely to have been offended because I have used the word ‘England’ oftener than ‘Britain’, as though the whole population dwelt in London and the Home Counties and neither north nor west possessed a culture of its own.
One gets a better view of this question if one considers the minor point first. It is quite true that the so-called races of Britain feel themselves to be very different from one another. A Scotsman, for instance, does not thank you if you call him an Englishman. You can see the hesitation we feel on this point by the fact that we call our islands by no less than six different names, England, Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom and, in very exalted moments, Albion. Even the differences between north and south England loom large in our own eyes. But somehow these differences fade away the moment that any two Britons are confronted by a European. It is very rare to meet a foreigner, other than an American, who can distinguish between English and Scots or even English and Irish. To a Frenchman, the Breton and the Auvergnat seem very different beings, and the accent of Marseilles is a stock joke in Paris. Yet we speak of ‘France’ and ‘the French’, recognizing France as an entity, a single civilization, which in fact it is. So also with ourselves. Looked at from the outsider even the cockney and the Yorkshireman have a strong family resemblance.'
You've read it but haven't understood it. In fact, he confirms my point. He was very precise in his use of language.
'Of course Orwell was conflating 'England' with GB or Britain, which rather blunts the impact every time some wee Anglo nationalist quotes from that essay.'
No he wasn't. He was well aware of Irish and Scottish nationalist movements.
Hard luck, I've just finished re-reading the 1940-43 collection of Orwell's writings.
'I have spoken all the while of ‘the nation’, ‘England’, ‘Britain’, as though forty-five million souls could somehow be treated as a unit. But is not England notoriously two nations, the rich and the poor? Dare one pretend that there is anything in common between people with £100,000 a year and people with £1 a week? And even Welsh and Scottish readers are likely to have been offended because I have used the word ‘England’ oftener than ‘Britain’, as though the whole population dwelt in London and the Home Counties and neither north nor west possessed a culture of its own.
One gets a better view of this question if one considers the minor point first. It is quite true that the so-called races of Britain feel themselves to be very different from one another. A Scotsman, for instance, does not thank you if you call him an Englishman. You can see the hesitation we feel on this point by the fact that we call our islands by no less than six different names, England, Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom and, in very exalted moments, Albion. Even the differences between north and south England loom large in our own eyes. But somehow these differences fade away the moment that any two Britons are confronted by a European. It is very rare to meet a foreigner, other than an American, who can distinguish between English and Scots or even English and Irish. To a Frenchman, the Breton and the Auvergnat seem very different beings, and the accent of Marseilles is a stock joke in Paris. Yet we speak of ‘France’ and ‘the French’, recognizing France as an entity, a single civilization, which in fact it is. So also with ourselves. Looked at from the outsider even the cockney and the Yorkshireman have a strong family resemblance.'
You've read it but haven't understood it. In fact, he confirms my point. He was very precise in his use of language.
Explain in precise language whether 'The Lion and the Unicorn' is about England or Britain.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.
I think that was Orwell's point, what with you being on the left and all
Indigo said: "Wrong sort of lying. Cameron's speciality is unqualified promises to do things that he has, or might have, no power to deliver.
The "reducing immigration to 10's of thousands" is a case in point, when 200k+ immigrants a year are arriving from the EU he doesn't have the faintest chance of reducing immigration to 10's of thousands, but he lets people believe that he does, and they looks surprised and disappointed when he can't deliver it.
Same with the EU renegotiation, many sceptics here said since early last year that Cameron wasn't going to come back with any more that a little bit of tinsel from the EU renegotiations, many Cameroon sages shook their wise heads and told us to have a bit of faith and wait for the results of the renegotiation, and lo it came to pass, the most pitiful bit of tinsel was revealed with a great deal of backslapping and mutual congratulation of his supporters.
Lisbon it was always likely that Brown would have ratified the treaty before Cameron could do anything about it, but once more he chose to draw a veil over his likely powerlessness and waxed lyrical about how the world would be a better place once he held his referendum on it.
People don't trust Cameron because he isnt straightforward, he lives for dissembling and PR bullshit (see the recent four or was it five updates on his status vis-a-vis the Panama Papers) and he consistently massively over promises and under delivers."
You elucidate my opinion about DC. The thing is that he does it so well. I have never worked out whether he temporarily believes what he is saying to any given audience. In any case his track record is a long one, some of it on YouTube I expect.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
I am sniggering
When are you going to join the refugee flood to Bavaria ? You did promise.
when stuck , wheel out and repeat old lies, the refuge of the unprincipled.
Glad to hear that the bread-winner in your family has kept her job. I guess your promised move to Germany can wait. Needs must.
Anyone got a list of the "facts" in this leaflet? They were flicking through one on the news and from what I briefly could read the text seemed far from factual, just vague pronouncements about how it there would be a "shock" to the economy and renegotiation could take "10 years".
I wouldn't put it past them to repeat the 3 million jobs lie.
What a bunch of shysters, taking us for absolute fools. Sadly they are probably right in most cases. Gah
Boris mentioned that it had the 3 millions jobs lie in his rant earlier.
More than three million jobs could be threatened because they are linked to exports to the EU, the leaflet suggests.
I was only a kid at the time, so can't really remember, but did Leave in 1975 spend the whole campaign complaining about process? I imagine that Tony Benn was keen to focus on ishoos.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
Perhaps you might want to ponder why England is the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their nationality. The answer might be quite uncomfortable
I was only a kid at the time, so can't really remember, but did Leave in 1975 spend the whole campaign complaining about process? I imagine that Tony Benn was keen to focus on ishoos.
The problem is no one knows what the real ishoos are, because both sides are lying through their teeth.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.
Why anyone thinks that and doesn't then go and live in one of them baffles me.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.
Well we never had a Vichy government, fascist dictator and didn't kill 6m people in gas chambers. That's a good start. The UK also abolished slavery before any other nation, gave women the right to vote before any other nation and achieved universal suffrage before any other nation.
It's sad that the left is so negative about this place. I kind of like it here. I'm not even resentful about the Empire, without it I would not be in this country.
'Of course Orwell was conflating 'England' with GB or Britain, which rather blunts the impact every time some wee Anglo nationalist quotes from that essay.'
No he wasn't. He was well aware of Irish and Scottish nationalist movements.
Hard luck, I've just finished re-reading the 1940-43 collection of Orwell's writings.
'I have spoken all the while of ‘the nation’, ‘England’, ‘Britain’, as though forty-five million souls could somehow be treated as a unit. But is not England notoriously two nations, the rich and the poor? Dare one pretend that there is anything in common between people with £100,000 a year and people with £1 a week? And even Welsh and Scottish readers are likely to have been offended because I have used the word ‘England’ oftener than ‘Britain’, as though the whole population dwelt in London and the Home Counties and neither north nor west possessed a culture of its own.
One gets a better view of this question if one considers the minor point first. It is quite true that the so-called races of Britain feel themselves to be very different from one another. A Scotsman, for instance, does not thank you if you call him an Englishman. You can see the hesitation we feel on this point by the fact that we call our islands by no less than six different names, England, Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom and, in very exalted moments, Albion. Even the differences between north and south England loom large in our own eyes. But somehow these differences fade away the moment that any two Britons are confronted by a European. It is very rare to meet a foreigner, other than an American, who can distinguish between English and Scots or even English and Irish. To a Frenchman, the Breton and the Auvergnat seem very different beings, and the accent of Marseilles is a stock joke in Paris. Yet we speak of ‘France’ and ‘the French’, recognizing France as an entity, a single civilization, which in fact it is. So also with ourselves. Looked at from the outsider even the cockney and the Yorkshireman have a strong family resemblance.'
You've read it but haven't understood it. In fact, he confirms my point. He was very precise in his use of language.
Explain in precise language whether 'The Lion and the Unicorn' is about England or Britain.
When Orwell wrote English he meant English, when he wrote Scottish he meant Scottish. Black isn't white and two plus two isn't five despite what the SNP THINK Police may demand.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
Perhaps you might want to ponder why England is the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their nationality. The answer might be quite uncomfortable
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.
Why anyone thinks that and doesn't then go and live in one of them baffles me.
What and waste all that opportunity for a good mithering and handwringing session ?
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.
Well we never had a Vichy government, fascist dictator and didn't kill 6m people in gas chambers. That's a good start. The UK also abolished slavery before any other nation, gave women the right to vote before any other nation and achieved universal suffrage before any other nation.
It's sad that the left is so negative about this place. I kind of like it here. I'm not even resentful about the Empire, without it I would not be in this country.
The UK also abolished slavery before any other nation, gave women the right to vote before any other nation and achieved universal suffrage before any other nation.
I'm afraid I don't think any of those points are strictly correct, though I share the general sentiment...
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
I am sniggering
When are you going to join the refugee flood to Bavaria ? You did promise.
when stuck , wheel out and repeat old lies, the refuge of the unprincipled.
Glad to hear that the bread-winner in your family has kept her job. I guess your promised move to Germany can wait. Needs must.
Are you barking, my wife has no need to work.
I remain to be persuaded that being married to you wouldn't count as 'work'....... ;-)
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.
Well we never had a Vichy government, fascist dictator and didn't kill 6m people in gas chambers. That's a good start. The UK also abolished slavery before any other nation, gave women the right to vote before any other nation and achieved universal suffrage before any other nation.
It's sad that the left is so negative about this place. I kind of like it here. I'm not even resentful about the Empire, without it I would not be in this country.
The UK also abolished slavery before any other nation, gave women the right to vote before any other nation and achieved universal suffrage before any other nation.
I'm afraid I don't think any of those points are strictly correct, though I share the general sentiment...
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
Perhaps you might want to ponder why England is the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their nationality. The answer might be quite uncomfortable
You are missing the point here, perhaps deliberately. The argument isn't about superiority, it is about control.
Who controls Britain? leavers believe it should be democratic will of the British people, and only the democratic will of the British people.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
Perhaps you might want to ponder why England is the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their nationality. The answer might be quite uncomfortable
This is simply not true but it's a different England of the Tolpuddle Martyrs,the Levellers,Peterloo,race riots,poll tax riots and the miners' strike.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.
Why anyone thinks that and doesn't then go and live in one of them baffles me.
Indeed. Give that we have freedom of movement, it does make one wonder why those who do nothing but run this country down don't just leave for one of those places they bleat on about being better than here.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
Perhaps you might want to ponder why England is the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their nationality. The answer might be quite uncomfortable
This is simply not true but it's a different England of the Tolpuddle Martyrs,the Levellers,Peterloo,race riots,poll tax riots and the miners' strike.
Nobody is pretending that Britain is a paragon, either now or in the past. all we are asking for is to take back the absolute sovereign right to democratic self determination.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
Leftie hates his countrymen. No change there then.
The hatred and contempt the right expresses for lefties and Labour voters - of whom there are many millions in the UK - is the equal of anything that the left directs at the right. You see it on here all the time.
It's England that the left fears and loathes, not the UK;
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
I am sniggering
When are you going to join the refugee flood to Bavaria ? You did promise.
when stuck , wheel out and repeat old lies, the refuge of the unprincipled.
Glad to hear that the bread-winner in your family has kept her job. I guess your promised move to Germany can wait. Needs must.
Are you barking, my wife has no need to work.
I remain to be persuaded that being married to you wouldn't count as 'work'....... ;-)
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.
Why anyone thinks that and doesn't then go and live in one of them baffles me.
If my memory serves me correctly polls have shown that more British people would get out of the UK if they could than virtually any other developed country. Unfortunately for most people it is not that simple - thousands of retirees leg at as soon as work is not a consideration. I currently split my year 50/50 but if we are daft enough to leave the EU I will probably move full time.
When Orwell wrote English he meant English, when he wrote Scottish he meant Scottish. Black isn't white and two plus two isn't five despite what the SNP THINK Police may demand.
'we call our islands by no less than six different names, England, Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom and, in very exalted moments, Albion.'
Indigo said: "Wrong sort of lying. Cameron's speciality is unqualified promises to do things that he has, or might have, no power to deliver.
The "reducing immigration to 10's of thousands" is a case in point, when 200k+ immigrants a year are arriving from the EU he doesn't have the faintest chance of reducing immigration to 10's of thousands, but he lets people believe that he does, and they looks surprised and disappointed when he can't deliver it.
Same with the EU renegotiation, many sceptics here said since early last year that Cameron wasn't going to come back with any more that a little bit of tinsel from the EU renegotiations, many Cameroon sages shook their wise heads and told us to have a bit of faith and wait for the results of the renegotiation, and lo it came to pass, the most pitiful bit of tinsel was revealed with a great deal of backslapping and mutual congratulation of his supporters.
Lisbon it was always likely that Brown would have ratified the treaty before Cameron could do anything about it, but once more he chose to draw a veil over his likely powerlessness and waxed lyrical about how the world would be a better place once he held his referendum on it.
People don't trust Cameron because he isnt straightforward, he lives for dissembling and PR bullshit (see the recent four or was it five updates on his status vis-a-vis the Panama Papers) and he consistently massively over promises and under delivers."
You elucidate my opinion about DC. The thing is that he does it so well. I have never worked out whether he temporarily believes what he is saying to any given audience. In any case his track record is a long one, some of it on YouTube I expect.
It reminds me of what Rory Bremner once said about Blair. The gist of it was that he was incapable of lying as he sincerely believed in what he was saying at the time, regardless of any connection or not to reality. Cameron strikes me as much the same.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.
Well we never had a Vichy government, fascist dictator and didn't kill 6m people in gas chambers. That's a good start. The UK also abolished slavery before any other nation, gave women the right to vote before any other nation and achieved universal suffrage before any other nation.
It's sad that the left is so negative about this place. I kind of like it here. I'm not even resentful about the Empire, without it I would not be in this country.
I quite like it but I do not for a second think it is superior to other European countries.
By the way you know what they say about Godwin's Law
You are missing the point here, perhaps deliberately. The argument isn't about superiority, it is about control.
Who controls Britain? leavers believe it should be democratic will of the British people, and only the democratic will of the British people.
The primacy of the will of the British people is never absolute unless you also wish to seek to subjugate any outside forces that have a bearing on our affairs. The question of sovereignty is not linear, but a pragmatic trade off between different approaches.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.
Why anyone thinks that and doesn't then go and live in one of them baffles me.
If my memory serves me correctly polls have shown that more British people would get out of the UK if they could than virtually any other developed country. Unfortunately for most people it is not that simple - thousands of retirees leg at as soon as work is not a consideration. I currently split my year 50/50 but if we are daft enough to leave the EU I will probably move full time.
Rubbish, it was precisely the opposite that was true. We are much less likely to go to Europe than they are to come here.
Being someone who considers themselves European as well as British I'm now coming to the view that 'Leave' would be the best option all round. We owe it to our partners to assist them in removing this malignant xenophobic carbuncle from the 28 while we have the opportunity.
If the opinion of leavers is that expressed on this site and in particular on this thread then I have no doubt that the civilized countries of the EU will be much better off without us.
A man who hates his own country.
A classic disease of the British Left.
No. I see a man who cares so much for his country and its values that he despairs of some of the political views expressed by its citizens. I do too.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
How anyone can consider the EU, many members of which have, variously, questionable political, economic, legal and 'cultural' institutions and positions, to be superior to us just baffles me.
How anyone still thinks the UK is superior to other European countries baffles me.
Why anyone thinks that and doesn't then go and live in one of them baffles me.
If my memory serves me correctly polls have shown that more British people would get out of the UK if they could than virtually any other developed country. Unfortunately for most people it is not that simple - thousands of retirees leg at as soon as work is not a consideration. I currently split my year 50/50 but if we are daft enough to leave the EU I will probably move full time.
Nobody is saying Britain is 'better' or 'worse'. I just want to reclaim the right of British voters to ultimately determine what goes on here.
Why are remainers so afraid of that? It can only be mistrust of what the people might vote for, given the opportunity.
Comments
Bring back antifrank.
I am sure that many on the political right feel the same, but in reverse.
No political party has a monopoply of patriotism, but there are great differences in what we take pride in concerning our national story.
Not that up on Russian history, but since the Muscovites took over when the Khans of Mongolia were thwarted it seems to have been a pretty stable country.
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21695003-dont-be-fooled-syria-vladimir-putins-foreign-policy-born-weakness-and-made
The question we should be asking is what will Putin's next adventure be?
I wouldn't put it past them to repeat the 3 million jobs lie.
What a bunch of shysters, taking us for absolute fools. Sadly they are probably right in most cases. Gah
I was wondering if you had any tips or predictions concerning the forthcoming Holyrood elections. I did quite well out of some of your predictions last year, and would be interested in your thoughts for this year.
Brexit risks drowning out some other important politics in our islands. The referendum should never have been permitted so close to the elections in the devolved governments.
1. You have a limited imagination; or
2. You don't think our way of life or liberty are worth fighting for
last night he was suggesting that democracy was especially important and that we should be spreading it to Ukraine. In spite of geopolitical concerns.
My point was that the EU involvement in Ukraine was a Ukrainian response to Russian aggression, not the other way around. The US is not germane to that.
We missed a historic opportunity to make Russia into a more ordinary European country in the 1990s.
Generally, NATO members don't meet their spending commitments.
Does Russia claim a special position vis-a-vis Ukraine? Yes it does. Is that unreasonable? Very possibly. But Ukraine as an entity can't survive being fully attached to one or other of the two rival power blocs that are in play here - and it won't. The die is cast now.
There's some interesting polling in this Pew Center research from 2014 which shows the stark regional divides in Ukraine.
In western Ukraine, 68% said it was better to close relations with the EU, 8% Russia, 17% both
in eastern Ukraine the numbers are 21% EU, 30% Russia, 35%
http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/chapter-2-ukraine-russian-influence-unwelcome/
I also find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with Nick P here. We did make commitments to Russia in this area in order to bring the Cold War to a peaceful end, which was a massive boon to the world. We should honour those I think.
As I posted last night, Russia as a power is in very steep and irreversible decline - stamping all over her at this juncture is unnecessary and brings entirely avoidable risks.
The memorandum stated that its purpose was to set out the "basis and general principles for initial discussions" on how SinoFortone and CR3 can "develop and fund major infrastructure projects in Scotland."
It also stated that the memorandum "is intended as a statement of intent and a platform to share confidential information, not a binding legal agreement" and that it did not represent a commitment of funds.
And it said that "each party may make public reference to the existence of this MOU as it thinks relevant and appropriate, provided that each party will obtain the approval of the other parties for the contents of any press release relating to the terms of this MOU prior to issue of such press release."
Mr Tyndall does not accurately report my views! But best do some work. I need to count our strikers so we know what to cover...
Oh gosh - I forgot it was a 2 day strike....
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution."
Scottish, Welsh or Irish leftists are often nationalists.
Russia's economy is not much bigger than that of the Netherlands. I agree the other countries should hit 2%, but in reality there's no way Russia can compete in the long term alone, purely on economics. She can cooperate with China for now to achieve economies of scale, but in the long run the Chinese will ditch them and run their own programmes.
Do you know the ratification status with other EU countries?
That is why Cameron is such a weak prime minister.
Lib Dems are toast. Greens may do well as they are seen as left wing and for Yes so given SNP are sure to win , they are most likely to pick up votes for people who want someone to keep SNP in check a bit.
Tories and Labour are both running pathetic campaigns.
Russia's actions have comprehensively borken the deal that they signed (*). Do you want us to keep the commitments we made in the same deal? DO you want us to honour it?
The only country demonstrably stamping other overs is Russia. Passively condoning such actions rarely ends well.
(*) You can argue Russia started breaking it years ago when they used gas supplies as a hammer against Ukraine's government.
This doesn't in any way mean I support what Putin is doing. I just recognise that the situation is fluid and far more nuanced than many on here like to claim and that - for all that I think they will regret it - there appears to be a pro Russian majority in the East of Ukraine and they should be allowed to decide for themselves who governs them.
There are no good guys in this as far as the politicians go. Putin is clearly (to my mind at least) the worst of them but the actions of the Ukranian Government are worthy of criticism as well. One reason why I think the Dutch were right to decide we should stay out of it, at least as far as formal treaties go.
The reforms that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union were forced on them by circumstance, they were not the result of considered choices.
So when I am told I hate the UK and its history, that I am a traitor, that Labour is the party of vested interests, the feckless and the workshy, and so on, that is pity, not hate. I am not so sure. It sounds very angry to me :-)
A Dutch friend of mine says after last night he expects all future EU-related agreements to get a referendum (like the Irish) and to fail so we should not expect further EU integration Treaties any time soon.
We'd spent forty years trying to destabilise the USSR, and then it suddenly happens - not with a whimper, but with a (fortunately non-nuclear) bang.
Presently at national level the Liberal Democrats cannot even aspire to "weak" from their current position of total irrelevance.
In the mid/late 1980s, while it was well known that Russia had economic difficulties (even if there were some in the Labour Party who still saw it as a model to follow, and who viewed Gorbachev as a saintly messiah rather than a man acting out of pragmatic necessity) there were very few commentators who recognised the full scale of them and even fewer who foresaw the wholesale and rapid collapse of Soviet political power (at home and abroad).
There's a lesson or two there for us.
The father of a friend of mine cleared a shop in Tokyo once. He broke wind - silently but violently - and it was thought that a gas leak had occurred, which, I suppose, it had.
If ratification was complete then the Dutch couldn't do anything about it.
Then the Politburo wondered why their system was failing when the figures were so good (or not as bad as they really were).
Western intelligence agencies got internal Soviet figures, which themselves were lies.
Yeltsin was basically harmless, mainly because he was drunk and fooling around most of the time, but he was also totally incompetent and his failure in office arguably led Russia down a resurgent nationalist path towards the end of the 1990s.
The "reducing immigration to 10's of thousands" is a case in point, when 200k+ immigrants a year are arriving from the EU he doesn't have the faintest chance of reducing immigration to 10's of thousands, but he lets people believe that he does, and they looks surprised and disappointed when he can't deliver it.
Same with the EU renegotiation, many sceptics here said since early last year that Cameron wasn't going to come back with any more that a little bit of tinsel from the EU renegotiations, many Cameroon sages shook their wise heads and told us to have a bit of faith and wait for the results of the renegotiation, and lo it came to pass, the most pitiful bit of tinsel was revealed with a great deal of backslapping and mutual congratulation of his supporters.
Lisbon it was always likely that Brown would have ratified the treaty before Cameron could do anything about it, but once more he chose to draw a veil over his likely powerlessness and waxed lyrical about how the world would be a better place once he held his referendum on it.
People don't trust Cameron because he isnt straightforward, he lives for dissembling and PR bullshit (see the recent four or was it five updates on his status vis-a-vis the Panama Papers) and he consistently massively over promises and under delivers.
"You have an English or Anglicized upper class, and a Scottish working class which speaks with a markedly different accent, or even, part of the time, in a different language. This is a more dangerous kind of class division than any now existing in England. Given favourable circumstances it might develop in an ugly way…"
And for all that I like Orwell he did have a rather bigoted view of the Scots.
"A girlfriend, Kay Ekevall, told the BBC that he so disliked Scotsmen he preferred to cross the road rather than be introduced to the poet Edwin Muir. “He just had this blind prejudice because of what he called the whisky-swilling planters in Burma that he’d met,” she said. “So he lumped all Scotsmen together.”
'I have spoken all the while of ‘the nation’, ‘England’, ‘Britain’, as though forty-five million souls could somehow be treated as a unit. But is not England notoriously two nations, the rich and the poor? Dare one pretend that there is anything in common between people with £100,000 a year and people with £1 a week? And even Welsh and Scottish readers are likely to have been offended because I have used the word ‘England’ oftener than ‘Britain’, as though the whole population dwelt in London and the Home Counties and neither north nor west possessed a culture of its own.
One gets a better view of this question if one considers the minor point first. It is quite true that the so-called races of Britain feel themselves to be very different from one another. A Scotsman, for instance, does not thank you if you call him an Englishman. You can see the hesitation we feel on this point by the fact that we call our islands by no less than six different names, England, Britain, Great Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom and, in very exalted moments, Albion. Even the differences between north and south England loom large in our own eyes. But somehow these differences fade away the moment that any two Britons are confronted by a European. It is very rare to meet a foreigner, other than an American, who can distinguish between English and Scots or even English and Irish. To a Frenchman, the Breton and the Auvergnat seem very different beings, and the accent of Marseilles is a stock joke in Paris. Yet we speak of ‘France’ and ‘the French’, recognizing France as an entity, a single civilization, which in fact it is. So also with ourselves. Looked at from the outsider even the cockney and the Yorkshireman have a strong family resemblance.'
It was certainly a possibility at the time.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/06/eu-referendum-taxpayers-to-fund9m-leaflet-to-every-home-warning/
https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/717798230503858176
Indeed, why not cheer yourself up with a splendid comedy, written by me?:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Adventures-Edric-Hero-Hornska-Book-ebook/dp/B01DOSP9ZK/
"Wrong sort of lying. Cameron's speciality is unqualified promises to do things that he has, or might have, no power to deliver.
The "reducing immigration to 10's of thousands" is a case in point, when 200k+ immigrants a year are arriving from the EU he doesn't have the faintest chance of reducing immigration to 10's of thousands, but he lets people believe that he does, and they looks surprised and disappointed when he can't deliver it.
Same with the EU renegotiation, many sceptics here said since early last year that Cameron wasn't going to come back with any more that a little bit of tinsel from the EU renegotiations, many Cameroon sages shook their wise heads and told us to have a bit of faith and wait for the results of the renegotiation, and lo it came to pass, the most pitiful bit of tinsel was revealed with a great deal of backslapping and mutual congratulation of his supporters.
Lisbon it was always likely that Brown would have ratified the treaty before Cameron could do anything about it, but once more he chose to draw a veil over his likely powerlessness and waxed lyrical about how the world would be a better place once he held his referendum on it.
People don't trust Cameron because he isnt straightforward, he lives for dissembling and PR bullshit (see the recent four or was it five updates on his status vis-a-vis the Panama Papers) and he consistently massively over promises and under delivers."
You elucidate my opinion about DC.
The thing is that he does it so well. I have never worked out whether he temporarily believes what he is saying to any given audience. In any case his track record is a long one, some of it on YouTube I expect.
Perhaps you might want to ponder why England is the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their nationality. The answer might be quite uncomfortable
It's sad that the left is so negative about this place. I kind of like it here. I'm not even resentful about the Empire, without it I would not be in this country.
Black isn't white and two plus two isn't five despite what the SNP THINK Police may demand.
I'm afraid I don't think any of those points are strictly correct, though I share the general sentiment...
Who controls Britain? leavers believe it should be democratic will of the British people, and only the democratic will of the British people.
Yep, that seems pretty precise to me.
The gist of it was that he was incapable of lying as he sincerely believed in what he was saying at the time, regardless of any connection or not to reality.
Cameron strikes me as much the same.
By the way you know what they say about Godwin's Law
Why are remainers so afraid of that? It can only be mistrust of what the people might vote for, given the opportunity.