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Second like Remain.

Up yours Brussels:
https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/717797350345936899

I was driving to work today listening to radio 4 , when an author was discussing his new book,about members of the world war 2 war cabinet that have been overlooked and forgotten by many today.
I can not seem to find it , is anyone aware of the book ?

Haven't had the chance to go back through the threads but has this been mentioned? I mean Jeeez this is beyond appalling and crass what was she thinking?
The stupid woman can't even relate that the victims were buried on the moors. It's the nickname luv that gives you the fecking clue.

"SNP election agent is condemned as 'a disgrace' after comparing David Cameron and Boris Johnson to child killers Ian Brady and Myra Hindley
Photo doctored to make Cameron and Johnson look like Moors murderers "

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3526743/SNP-election-agent-condemned-disgrace-comparing-David-Cameron-Boris-Johnson-child-killers-Ian-Brady-Myra-Hindley.html#ixzz454trBRRG

MP_SE said:

Second like Remain.

Up yours Brussels:
https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/717797350345936899

The results page is here:

http://app.nos.nl/datavisualisatie/referendum-2016/

EU fatigue has risen again in the Netherlands.

Speedy said:

HYUFD said:

Quinnipiac Pennsylvania

GOP
Trump 39
Cruz 30
Kasich 24

Dems
Clinton 50
Sanders 44

General Election

Clinton 45
Trump 42

Clinton 43
Cruz 43

Clinton 35
Kasich 51


Sanders 48
Trump 40

Sanders 46
Cruz 38

Sanders 40
Kasich 46
https://www.qu.edu/images/polling/pa/pa04062016_Pfgr37w.pdf

I think the only GE polling that is relevant is one that asks about a 3rd option, not just Trump and Cruz vs Hillary.
Because if either Trump or Cruz are the nominee then one of them is going to bolt out and run as an independent or support an independent.

So it's fine if Cruz is level with Hillary on his own, but what happens if Trump runs as an independent in Pennsylvania ?

You are right there

taffys said:

I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

I think it will be used as yet another example of the democratic deficit which exists as a result of EU membership. That is presuming the Dutch people are ignored, which I suspect they will be.

Speedy said:

MP_SE said:

Second like Remain.

Up yours Brussels:
https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/717797350345936899

The results page is here:

http://app.nos.nl/datavisualisatie/referendum-2016/

EU fatigue has risen again in the Netherlands.

Is that Groningen voting in favour in the north-east?

chestnut said:

taffys said:

I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

99% of the population are probably unaware of it's existence,but if the BBC/ITV etc publicise it that may change a little.

One thing it could conceivably do is tie into a theme of democratic insurgency.

The Greeks last year, the Dutch this....and then us?

There is a sense that there is something wrong about the EU.

I pity the poor Ukraine, getting pushed into Putins orbit because of a Euro-tantrum.

Kippers certainly have some very strange bedfellows! What is wrong with an EU freetrade agreement with Ukraine tied to measures to improve good government?

surbiton said:

foxinsoxuk said:

chestnut said:

taffys said:

I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

99% of the population are probably unaware of it's existence,but if the BBC/ITV etc publicise it that may change a little.

One thing it could conceivably do is tie into a theme of democratic insurgency.

The Greeks last year, the Dutch this....and then us?

There is a sense that there is something wrong about the EU.

I pity the poor Ukraine, getting pushed into Putins orbit because of a Euro-tantrum.

Kippers certainly have some very strange bedfellows! What is wrong with an EU freetrade agreement with Ukraine tied to measures to improve good government?

Racism ?

Last time I looked, Ukrainians were White.

foxinsoxuk said:

chestnut said:

taffys said:

I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

99% of the population are probably unaware of it's existence,but if the BBC/ITV etc publicise it that may change a little.

One thing it could conceivably do is tie into a theme of democratic insurgency.

The Greeks last year, the Dutch this....and then us?

There is a sense that there is something wrong about the EU.

I pity the poor Ukraine, getting pushed into Putins orbit because of a Euro-tantrum.

Kippers certainly have some very strange bedfellows! What is wrong with an EU freetrade agreement with Ukraine tied to measures to improve good government?

Ukraine is too close to Russia to ever be closer to the EU.

Only EU bureaucrats seem to not understand this basic reality of European/Russian geopolitics.

Yet it is possible to oppose Putin as well as opposing further EU/Ukraine involvement.

I expect Alastair Meeks to come along shortly and suggest that this is an embarrassingly self serving comment.

ydoethur said:

Grrr, curse of the new thread: @Yorkcity

Yorkcity said:

I was driving to work today listening to radio 4 , when an author was discussing his new book,about members of the world war 2 war cabinet that have been overlooked and forgotten by many today.
I can not seem to find it , is anyone aware of the book ?

Roger Hermiston, author of All Behind You, Winston: Churchill's Great Coalition 1940-45, and Sonia Purnell, author of First Lady: The Life and Wars of Clementine Churchill.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b075qflr

Sounds interesting. Years ago I did a lot of work on Sir John Anderson, who would surely be one of them. One of two career civil servants to subsequently become a Cabinet Minister (I forget who the other was).

Thanks much appreciated

MP_SE said:

taffys said:

I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

I think it will be used as yet another example of the democratic deficit which exists as a result of EU membership. That is presuming the Dutch people are ignored, which I suspect they will be.

Of course the EFTA free trade deal with Ukraine was ratified without a single referendum on any EFTA country

chestnut said:

If I was a Russian I don't think I'd like the idea of a German dominated bloc sitting on my doorstep.

There is an awful lot of ignorance in Western Europe about Russia and the Ukraine. To sum up the key points:

1) The Russians think of Ukraine as a province of Russia. It was, indeed, the place where Russia was created (the Duchy of Rus was first based in Kiev). They would see it joining the EU as the equivalent of Hampshire declaring independence and joining France.

2) They therefore have enormous difficulty thinking of the Ukrainians as a separate people and entitled to make their separate decisions about what to do.

3) They are also unnerved at the thought of a country next door to them, in the middle of a big, flat, grassy plain that runs pretty well all the way to Moscow, being controlled by someone else.

Unfortunately, the Ukrainians do not quite see it that way:

1) They are a separate people, with a separate language and therefore do not think of themselves as Russian;

2) They hate the Russians with a passion, largely as a result of the Stalin era (collectivization) and the Second World War (when their country was devastated by the Russians, the Germans and then the Russians again);

3) They believe that Russia only wants to run them as a sort of colonial outpost and food/raw materials depot. They also feel they are treated as inferiors by the Russians. Even in the USSR, only one Ukrainian ever rose to the top of the Communist party. Even Georgia had more senior Politburo members than they did.

4) The whole thing is somewhat complicated by the huge numbers of Russians - as distinct from Ukrainians - who live in the Crimea, the Donetsk and Donbass, the latter regions the descendants of dispossessed peasants who went to work in the coal mines and factories under the Tsars. Who see things as Russians - i.e. 1-3 above - and not Ukrainians - 1-3 below. The result, of course, is a civil war. Forget the official ideologies - it's naked or at best scantily-clad nationalism.

There is an argument that the EU should not twist Russia's tale by helping Ukraine. I don't think that's a tenable argument. If national self-determination is to be applied, Ukraine has the right to make trade agreements and treaties with whomever it wants. Putin is bullying it into making agreements only with him and has not proven shy about using torture, murder and corruption on a grand scale to do it. The EU as a bloc is in a better position to help Ukraine stand up to this than France/Britain/Germany or even NATO would be singly, via helpful trade terms and modernisation of their constitution (which was rigged to favour Russia).

Therefore, in standing up for their independence on an issue that does not affect them directly Dutch voters are potentially damaging the Ukraine's own chances of remaining independent. That is a sad paradox.

A thought to leave you with for tonight. Good night.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3526916/American-publication-goes-UK-injunction-report-known-celebrity-extra-marital-threesome.html

I see injunctions are back in vogue. Took 2 seconds to find out.

Philip_Thompson said:

Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

Thanks Philip.

It's times like this I really wish Socrates was on the site.

Philip_Thompson said:

Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

No, but can we reject it for other reasons, such as Ukrainian corruption?

Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

Oh, and:

https://twitter.com/dannythefink/status/717622769719111680

AlastairMeeks said:

Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

Knew the stroman was coming.

FrancisUrquhart said:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3526916/American-publication-goes-UK-injunction-report-known-celebrity-extra-marital-threesome.html

I see injunctions are back in vogue. Took 2 seconds to find out.

Ted Cruz in Madam's Black Book? That's the real story

Yorkcity said:

ydoethur said:

Grrr, curse of the new thread: @Yorkcity

Yorkcity said:

I was driving to work today listening to radio 4 , when an author was discussing his new book,about members of the world war 2 war cabinet that have been overlooked and forgotten by many today.
I can not seem to find it , is anyone aware of the book ?

Roger Hermiston, author of All Behind You, Winston: Churchill's Great Coalition 1940-45, and Sonia Purnell, author of First Lady: The Life and Wars of Clementine Churchill.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b075qflr

Sounds interesting. Years ago I did a lot of work on Sir John Anderson, who would surely be one of them. One of two career civil servants to subsequently become a Cabinet Minister (I forget who the other was).

Thanks much appreciated

Maurice Hankey, Cabinet Secretary is the other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Hankey,_1st_Baron_Hankey

RoyalBlue said:

ydoethur said:

chestnut said:

.

There is an awful lot of ignorance in Western Europe about Russia and the Ukraine. To sum up the key points:

1) The Russians think of Ukraine as a province of Russia. It was, indeed, the place where Russia was created (the Duchy of Rus was first based in Kiev). They would see it joining the EU as the equivalent of Hampshire declaring independence and joining France.

2) They therefore have enormous difficulty thinking of the Ukrainians as a separate people and entitled to make their separate decisions about what to do.

3) They are also unnerved at the thought of a country next door to them, in the middle of a big, flat, grassy plain that runs pretty well all the way to Moscow, being controlled by someone else.

Unfortunately, the Ukrainians do not quite see it that way:

1) They are a separate people, with a separate language and therefore do not think of themselves as Russian;

2) They hate the Russians with a passion, largely as a result of the Stalin era (collectivization) and the Second World War (when their country was devastated by the Russians, the Germans and then the Russians again);

3) They believe that Russia only wants to run them as a sort of colonial outpost and food/raw materials depot. They also feel they are treated as inferiors by the Russians. Even in the USSR, only one Ukrainian ever rose to the top of the Communist party. Even Georgia had more senior Politburo members than they did.

There is an argument that the EU should not twist Russia's tale by helping Ukraine. I don't think that's a tenable argument. If national self-determination is to be applied, Ukraine has the right to make trade agreements and treaties with whomever it wants. Putin is bullying it into making agreements only with him and has not proven shy about using torture, murder and corruption on a grand scale to do it. The EU as a bloc is in a better position to help Ukraine stand up to this than France/Britain/Germany or even NATO would be singly, via helpful trade terms and modernisation of their constitution (which was rigged to favour Russia).

Therefore, in standing up for their independence on an issue that does not affect them directly Dutch voters are potentially damaging the Ukraine's own chances of remaining independent. That is a sad paradox.

A thought to leave you with for tonight. Good night.

A helpful summary! Two depressing statistics about the Ukraine: 1) GDP per capita is $2,100 (worse than Sudan) and 2) highest HIV prevalence in Europe at more than 1% of the adult population.

The people in charge since 'independence' have looted the country.

I think an even more helpful summary is that Ukraine is simply Russia if Boris Yeltsin was still in charge.

nigel4england said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

Which ever way they turn they will be condemned to an authoritarian dictator.

You clearly need to get out more if you think the EU is equivalent to Putins kleptocracy!

Sean_F said:

surbiton said:

foxinsoxuk said:

chestnut said:

taffys said:

I'm not sure that Dutch referendum cuts much ice here, but the reaction of the government and the EU in general might.

99% of the population are probably unaware of it's existence,but if the BBC/ITV etc publicise it that may change a little.

One thing it could conceivably do is tie into a theme of democratic insurgency.

The Greeks last year, the Dutch this....and then us?

There is a sense that there is something wrong about the EU.

I pity the poor Ukraine, getting pushed into Putins orbit because of a Euro-tantrum.

Kippers certainly have some very strange bedfellows! What is wrong with an EU freetrade agreement with Ukraine tied to measures to improve good government?

Racism ?

Last time I looked, Ukrainians were White.

That's actually quite a worrying comment. It appears that you think you can only suffer racism if you are any colour other than white. Perhaps you didn't mean it the way it reads ?

foxinsoxuk said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

And the PBers looked from man to pig, from Russiantroll to Europhobe, but could no longer see any difference.

And there we have it. I can't stand the way someone who disagrees with something is now a phobe. It is derogatory and suggests overreaction.

I am not scared of European elites - they're laughable. But I imagine they might soon be scared of the people; Holland has suggested as much.

nigel4england said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

Which ever way they turn they will be condemned to an authoritarian dictator.

The most troubling thing about that post is that you might actually believe it.

foxinsoxuk said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

And the PBers looked from man to pig, from Russiantroll to Europhobe, but could no longer see any difference.

https://twitter.com/GregLinaman/status/717721977570467840

This is very simple, chronic EU fatigue is the cause behind this, people simply disagree with the direction the EU is going since 1992.
The EU hasn't won a referendum since they forced the Irish to vote twice on the Nice treaty in 2001.

Goodnight.

runnymede said:

Re Ukraine

Ukraine is deeply split on a broadly east-west axis, in terms of its attitudes to Russia. This relates not just to Russian immigration in the last century but also to the fact that Ukraine's current (somewhat artificial) borders bring together areas that in the west, were historically parts of Poland (and later Austria-Hungary) and in the east areas that were part of Russia from the 17th century (and with an emotional attachment to Russians that goes back to the Dark Ages).

The result of this is that to push Ukraine either entirely into the Russian or entirely into the western orbit risks destabilising the country, as well as infuriating the Russians. Against this background, the EU's attempt to expand into Ukraine were very unwise. The Russian response is of course unacceptable but was also predictable - and entirely avoidable.

So, EFTA signing a free trade deal with the Ukraine is OK. But the EU doing it is not?

MaxPB said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

No, but can we reject it for other reasons, such as Ukrainian corruption?

The slightly amusing bit is that if we quit the EU for EFTA, we'll find ourselves with a Ukraine free trade deal.

Mortimer said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Mortimer said:

foxinsoxuk said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

And the PBers looked from man to pig, from Russiantroll to Europhobe, but could no longer see any difference.

And there we have it. I can't stand the way someone who disagrees with something is now a phobe. It is derogatory and suggests overreaction.

I am not scared of European elites - they're laughable. But I imagine they might soon be scared of the people; Holland has suggested as much.

I mean phobe as an irrational fear.

Dan Hannan on Newsnight just volunteered that he had voted in favour of the EU -Ukraine treaty.

What is it about this treaty that you object to? Apart from the fact that it was negotiated by the EU?

The fact that is fails to appreciate basic geopolitics.

Basic politics being that small countries next to big ones shouldn't be allowed to sign trade treaties?

Philip_Thompson said:

MaxPB said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

No, but can we reject it for other reasons, such as Ukrainian corruption?

Yes that is fair enough, though if someone looks askance at Ukrainian corruption specifically while ignoring other nations corruption then I'd wonder why the difference.

But if the reason is to appease or avoid conflict with Russia then that is dreadful.

Well I wouldn't. As I have said, I also oppose any notion of a free trade deal with China and oppose Chinese investments in UK infrastructure. I would also sever trade ties with pretty much all of the Gulf nations. The west is too willing to turn a blind eye to corruption and human rights abuses when it suits us (Ukraine, Saudi Arabia, China) but scream bloody murder when it doesn't (Russia/Putin, Iran, Venezuela). This double standard should be eradicated.

Danny565 said:

MaxPB said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3526916/American-publication-goes-UK-injunction-report-known-celebrity-extra-marital-threesome.html

I see injunctions are back in vogue. Took 2 seconds to find out.

Literally less than a minute of searching on twatter.

I just spent a good 5 minutes searching and am none the wiser

I would post the name of the publication but I fear for Mike's legal bill!

chestnut said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

Understanding Russian feeling and 'appeasing' Putin are not the same thing.

No they aren't, although to my mind we do see too much blame apportioned to the EU, an organization I want to leave, in the Ukraine situation on the grounds that of course this would happen due to EU ambitions being too high. Which may well be the case, and it would have been simpler all around if many Ukranians did not want a path which would upset Russia, but ultimately they can choose to try to join if they want, how much the EU is wrong to encourage that is really pretty irrelevant in how Russia has responded.

Speedy said:

foxinsoxuk said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

And the PBers looked from man to pig, from Russiantroll to Europhobe, but could no longer see any difference.

https://twitter.com/GregLinaman/status/717721977570467840

This is very simple, chronic EU fatigue is the cause behind this, people simply disagree with the direction the EU is going since 1992.
The EU hasn't won a referendum since they forced the Irish to vote twice on the Nice treaty in 2001.

Goodnight.

That's not strictly true, they've won two Swiss referendum (and lost one). In 2012, the Croatians voted to join the EU. There was also the Irish referendum in 2012 or 2013 on ratifying the EU fiscal compact. And there may be some others I've forgotten about.

Another case of the UK being heard loud and clear within the EU:

https://twitter.com/stewartwood/status/717824288703823873

foxinsoxuk said:

Mortimer said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Mortimer said:

foxinsoxuk said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Tonight we see the nihilism of so many Leave campaigners: exulting in condemning 50 million people to creeping colonialism by an authoritarian dictator because the alternative involved the EU.

And the PBers looked from man to pig, from Russiantroll to Europhobe, but could no longer see any difference.

And there we have it. I can't stand the way someone who disagrees with something is now a phobe. It is derogatory and suggests overreaction.

I am not scared of European elites - they're laughable. But I imagine they might soon be scared of the people; Holland has suggested as much.

I mean phobe as an irrational fear.

Dan Hannan on Newsnight just volunteered that he had voted in favour of the EU -Ukraine treaty.

What is it about this treaty that you object to? Apart from the fact that it was negotiated by the EU?

The fact that is fails to appreciate basic geopolitics.

Which geopolitical fact should we appreciate? That Russia does not respect the independence or sovereignty of its neighbours?

The fact that Ukraine borders Russia, and that an expansionist Russia led by someone increasingly backed into a corner might well overreact further to interference from foreign capitals.

I can't stand Russian policy towards ex USSR territories - but this is anything but a de-escalation strategy.

rcs1000 said:

runnymede said:

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

No, but can we reject it for other reasons, such as Ukrainian corruption?

The slightly amusing bit is that if we quit the EU for EFTA, we'll find ourselves with a Ukraine free trade deal.

The interesting thing is the Russians clearly don't see EFTA as a threat, but they do see the EU as a threat. Which is of course because they correctly perceive that the EU is not really about trade, but empire building.

The Russians want a fragmented Europe. It is in their interests to be the dominant power on Europe. No EU, no NATO, and them as r dominant energy supplier to the continent would be geopolitical mana from heaven for them.

Leaving the EU won't mean leaving NATO and that's simply not going to happen. NATO matters far more than the EU.

rcs1000 said:

runnymede said:

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

No, but can we reject it for other reasons, such as Ukrainian corruption?

The slightly amusing bit is that if we quit the EU for EFTA, we'll find ourselves with a Ukraine free trade deal.

The interesting thing is the Russians clearly don't see EFTA as a threat, but they do see the EU as a threat. Which is of course because they correctly perceive that the EU is not really about trade, but empire building.

The Russians want a fragmented Europe. It is in their interests to be the dominant power on Europe. No EU, no NATO, and them as r dominant energy supplier to the continent would be geopolitical mana from heaven for them.

Honestly, Russian aggression is the only thing that might swing me into the remain camp, but I would want to eject the freeloaders and obstructionists at the same time.

Richard_Nabavi said:

rcs1000 said:

The slightly amusing bit is that if we quit the EU for EFTA, we'll find ourselves with a Ukraine free trade deal.

Amusement aside, is that actually right? It's unclear to me (but may not be unclear to others) whether EFTA's existing trade agreements would be inherited by a state which joined EFTA now.

I think that is the case, we inherit, or at least are able to take up any existing EFTA trade deals if we join the organisation.

chestnut said:

kle4 said:

chestnut said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Anyone who supports rejecting the Ukrainian trade deal in order to appease Putin ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suppose we should have rejected any support of Poland in order to appease Hitler?

Understanding Russian feeling and 'appeasing' Putin are not the same thing.

No they aren't, although to my mind we do see too much blame apportioned to the EU, an organization I want to leave, in the Ukraine situation on the grounds that of course this would happen due to EU ambitions being too high. Which may well be the case, and it would have been simpler all around if many Ukranians did not want a path which would upset Russia, but ultimately they can choose to try to join if they want, how much the EU is wrong to encourage that is really pretty irrelevant in how Russia has responded.

In fairness to the Dutch - it is them who are voting after all - their judgement should be in the Dutch national interest - not Ukraine's, Russia's, the EU's.

The EU is something I'm struggling to describe.

It isn't a union, whatever the name says. The Eurozone is, but the bit we're in, isn't.

The sooner we rationalise Eurozone, EU, EFTA back down to two - one a union, one a free trade area - the better.

It is pretty logical.

And yet it is the fervent Remainers who accuse others of making embarrassingly self-serving comments.

Richard_Nabavi said:

rcs1000 said:

The slightly amusing bit is that if we quit the EU for EFTA, we'll find ourselves with a Ukraine free trade deal.

Amusement aside, is that actually right? It's unclear to me (but may not be unclear to others) whether EFTA's existing trade agreements would be inherited by a state which joined EFTA now.

Do nations that join the EU like Croatia in 2013 get excluded from the EU's existing trade deals? Is there any reason for it to be any different for new EFTA members?