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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If this Ipsos-MORI polling is right then party leaders are

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited January 2014 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If this Ipsos-MORI polling is right then party leaders are becoming less important

“The average combined satisfaction rating of the leaders of the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat parties is lower today than Ipsos MORI has ever seen in recent history, at an equivalent time before a general election.

Read the full story here


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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    "Add on the continuing problems that EdM has in establishing himself,"

    How long does a leader need to "establish himself" ? The trend isn't his friend.
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    Yup
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    edited January 2014
    I'm sure our secessionist friends in North Britain will point to the ratings of Salmond and Sturgeon.
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    Just taken the 13/2 and the 17/2 offered by spreadex that Man City score either 5 goals or 6 goals or more tonight

    http://www.oddschecker.com/football/english/fa-cup/man-city-v-blackburn/total-home-goals
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    On topic, voters are getting smarter and better able to see through the politicians' bullshit. Eventually this will hit a tipping point where the voters are so smart that it ceases to be in the politicians' interests to bullshit them all the time, and after a while their reputations will recover.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    edited January 2014
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    I think it's important to consider whether low approval is due to hatred, profound dislike, or disappointment/disinterest. Loathing can motivate, but a vague sense of dissatisfaction probably won't make much difference.

    I suspect this may be worst for Clegg/Lib Dems, as I suspect those who really dislike Cameron/Miliband were unlikely to ever vote for them anyway, whereas the tuition fees 'betrayal' [NB PR lovers, coalition means never having to stick to your promises] appears to have caused former Lib Dem supporters to despise Clegg (more than seems warranted to me, but then, I'm not exactly a Lib Dem).

    Edited extra bit: betting post

    Last thread I tipped SImon to beat Cilic at 4. He's now 3.75, but I'd still back him (down to 3, actually). He has a 3:0 record. Both struggled to a 3:2 first round win. Probably 50/50 or in Simon's favour, so longer than evens is a bit silly.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    FPT

    AveryLP said:

    I am not against small banking operations pursuing a niche market, Mr. Brooke. Even if they rarely grow to be major market players, they are vital for spurring competition and forcing the big boys to shake off their complacency.

    It is the middle market players that tend to suffer, although both Clydesdale Bank and Yorkshire Bank (in particular) have performed well as mid sized banks by concentrating on their regional base at the expense of rapid expansion. Still, for all their undoubted success, they are not sexy organisations and their long term owner, National Australia Bank, now appears to want to sell them (at the right price).

    Building stronger banks on the base of these two might be a better strategy than relying on Virgin Money type operations and Hedge Fund consortia to enter the market with force and velocity.

    4 cough Mr Pole.

    As ever you wheel out second hand Michael Porter crap and say everything is inevitable. It isn't. The issue you aren't facing up to is the expectation of returns is unrealistic in the first place. Investors wanting more money and believing the latest snake oil salesman from McKinsey or BCG simply shows a fool and his money are easily parted.

    If the germans had taken your approach there would be no Mittelstand; just a Grossstand and a Kleinstand like we're heading for.
    I am a lifelong fan of Michael Porter, Mr. Brooke and spurn any criticism of the 'Boston Box'.

    As for the German banking sector, it is one of the very few in Europe and elsewhere where I haven't worked directly on structural issues.

    It has always seemed to me to be the kind of system that a committee of Liberal Democrats would design if given a day's management retreat, a pencil and a blank sheet of paper. At the core is a key role for Councillor Jobsworth.

    As your German is better than mine, I am sure you can better translate Mr. Jobsworth's name to the local patois. Herr Doktor Doktor Fuch Suppe is the best I can manage.
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    On topic, voters are getting smarter and better able to see through the politicians' bullshit.

    The Labour poll ratings disprove that hypothesis.
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    When I first read this, my initial thought was, turnout is going to keep on going down (I know it went up in 2010, but generally still lower than in the past)
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151

    On topic, voters are getting smarter and better able to see through the politicians' bullshit.

    The Labour poll ratings disprove that hypothesis.
    Not really, the political stunts move votes but we're talking about low single-digits.
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    Some polling immigration by TNS

    Support for stricter border controls was stronger among the lower income groups (C2DE), with 36% placing the policy among their top two priorities, against 26% of the higher income groups (ABC1).

    Among Conservative supporters, 38% ranked the policy in their top two, compared with 19% of Labour voters, 24% of Liberal Democrat supporters and 56% of those backing UKIP. More than a third (35%) of Labour supporters ranked the issue in their bottom two priorities, along with 28% of Liberal Democrat voters, against just 13% of Conservatives and 8% of those backing UKIP.

    “The data shows clearly that immigration is a polarising issue,” said Dr Michelle Harrison, CEO of TNS BMRB.

    http://www.tns-bmrb.co.uk/news-and-events/survey-reveals-split-of-british-opinion-on-immigration
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    In 1954 the combined parliamentary experience of the three party leaders was 109 years.

    In 2013 the figure was just 30 years...

    We are ruled by political pygmies.
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    Lord Rennard says he wants his job back.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    FPT @Avery


    I am a lifelong fan of Michael Porter, Mr. Brooke and spurn any criticism of the 'Boston Box'.

    Mr Pole you are a lost cause, beholden to the mirage of matrices from HBS and their confederates. You must learn to think outside your Boston Box and see the world in different ways.

    On the other hand I can confidently predict I will no longer need to drone on incessently about import substitiution. When US consultants decide this is the next big thing and its saving America it will be packaged for UK consumption and you'll be on like a disciple because some 24 yr old with an MBA now says so. You owe me £2million for strategic consultancy advice.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited January 2014

    FPT @Avery


    I am a lifelong fan of Michael Porter, Mr. Brooke and spurn any criticism of the 'Boston Box'.

    Mr Pole you are a lost cause, beholden to the mirage of matrices from HBS and their confederates. You must learn to think outside your Boston Box and see the world in different ways.

    On the other hand I can confidently predict I will no longer need to drone on incessently about import substitiution. When US consultants decide this is the next big thing and its saving America it will be packaged for UK consumption and you'll be on like a disciple because some 24 yr old with an MBA now says so. You owe me £2million for strategic consultancy advice.

    Can I pay you in Scottish bonds?

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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    AveryLP said:

    FPT @Avery


    I am a lifelong fan of Michael Porter, Mr. Brooke and spurn any criticism of the 'Boston Box'.

    Mr Pole you are a lost cause, beholden to the mirage of matrices from HBS and their confederates. You must learn to think outside your Boston Box and see the world in different ways.

    On the other hand I can confidently predict I will no longer need to drone on incessently about import substitiution. When US consultants decide this is the next big thing and its saving America it will be packaged for UK consumption and you'll be on like a disciple because some 24 yr old with an MBA now says so. You owe me £2million for strategic consultancy advice.

    Can I pay you in Scottish bonds?

    Ask me in September, then it might be Scottish Bunds.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Lord Rennard says he wants his job back.

    Will it be a hands on role ?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706

    Lord Rennard says he wants his job back.

    Rowena Mason: "Lord Rennard says justice was eventually done and adds: "I now look forward to resuming my roles within the Liberal Democrats"

    'Justice was eventually done'.......wonder how the complainants feel about that.....I suspect Ch4 news will tell us......
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    Lord Rennard cleared of sexually harassing Liberal Democrat women and says he wants his job back

    Lord Rennard has been cleared of sexually harassing Liberal Democrat party workers despite an independent review finding “broadly credible” evidence he “violated” the personal space of women.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/liberaldemocrats/10574127/Lord-Rennard-cleared-of-sexually-harassing-Liberal-Democrat-women-and-says-he-wants-his-job-back.html
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited January 2014

    Lord Rennard says he wants his job back.

    Daughter off a duck's back?

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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Lord Rennard says he wants his job back.

    What job? He resigned as Chief Exec of the Lib Dems for health reasons long before the allegations became public. Didnt he?

    I would have thought his first comment should have been to apologise to the women concerned. (Maybe it was.)

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Neil said:

    Lord Rennard says he wants his job back.

    What job? He resigned as Chief Exec of the Lib Dems for health reasons long before the allegations became public. Didnt he?

    I would have thought his first comment should have been to apologise to the women concerned. (Maybe it was.)

    Mark Senior will tell us.

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706
    Lord Rennard's fulsome apology & commitment to reflect on his behaviour.....not:

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/statement-by-lord-rennard-37846.html
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Neil said:

    Lord Rennard says he wants his job back.

    What job? He resigned as Chief Exec of the Lib Dems for health reasons long before the allegations became public. Didnt he?

    I would have thought his first comment should have been to apologise to the women concerned. (Maybe it was.)

    Wow ! What a miraculous recovery to health Rennard has made. I assume he's spent enough time with his family too !

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    A bit of advice.

    Keep the sexual harassment complaint forms in the bottom drawer. That way, when she goes to get one you'll get a great view of her arse.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Lord Rennard's fulsome apology & commitment to reflect on his behaviour.....not:

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/statement-by-lord-rennard-37846.html

    Does he not realise that he's politically contagious now and the Lib Dems would be mad to give him any role?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706
    Neil said:

    Lord Rennard says he wants his job back.

    What job? He resigned as Chief Exec of the Lib Dems for health reasons long before the allegations became public. Didnt he?

    I would have thought his first comment should have been to apologise to the women concerned. (Maybe it was.)

    I now look forward to resuming my roles within the Liberal Democrats.

    IIRC at the time he resigned after some of the allegations had made their way into the hierarchy, but well before they became public.....
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    Neil said:

    Lord Rennard says he wants his job back.

    What job? He resigned as Chief Exec of the Lib Dems for health reasons long before the allegations became public. Didnt he?

    I would have thought his first comment should have been to apologise to the women concerned. (Maybe it was.)

    You are such a cynic.

    Lord Rennard did not resign purely on health grounds, Nick Clegg admits

    Lib Dem leader denies cover-up over ex-chief executive but admits claims of 'inappropriate behaviour were in background'

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/feb/27/lord-rennard-health-nick-clegg
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    Lord Rennard's fulsome apology & commitment to reflect on his behaviour.....not:

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/statement-by-lord-rennard-37846.html

    Why should an innocent man need to apologise for anything?

    If I were the Mods I'd be watching closely the comments posted here....
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706
    I have specifically discounted suggestions made during the investigation that the incidents had been invented as part of a political campaign against Lord Rennard.

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/internal-investigation-into-allegations-against-lord-rennard-37847.html
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    RodCrosby said:

    Lord Rennard's fulsome apology & commitment to reflect on his behaviour.....not:

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/statement-by-lord-rennard-37846.html

    Why should an innocent man need to apologise for anything?

    If I were the Mods I'd be watching closely the comments posted here....
    Well if Tim Farron says this

    Tim Farron, the president of the Liberal Democrats said that he was not “content” with the decision but has “no choice” but to accept Mr Webster’s conclusions. He added that Lord Rennard should apologise to the women concerned.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    RodCrosby said:

    Lord Rennard's fulsome apology & commitment to reflect on his behaviour.....not:

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/statement-by-lord-rennard-37846.html

    Why should an innocent man need to apologise for anything?

    If I were the Mods I'd be watching closely the comments posted here....
    The report itself calls on him to apologise (as has the party president). I'm pretty sure we're on safe legal ground here.

    As to why he should apologise - do you take the view that you should only ever apologise for behaviour that can be proven to be criminal?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    All about the court of public opinion in politics !
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    I once asked a Lib Dem to make a cake.

    It came back half baked.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706
    edited January 2014
    RodCrosby said:

    Lord Rennard's fulsome apology & commitment to reflect on his behaviour.....not:

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/statement-by-lord-rennard-37846.html

    Why should an innocent man need to apologise for anything?

    If I were the Mods I'd be watching closely the comments posted here....
    Let me be clear from the outset that the evidence suggests that Lord Rennard’s behaviour has caused distress to a number of women, so much so that they came forward several years after the events in question........

    It is my view that Lord Rennard ought to reflect upon the effect that his behaviour has had and the distress which it caused and that an apology would be appropriate, as would a commitment to change his behaviour in future.


    No apology, no commitment to change his behaviour.....
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Samuelsdale: Carney: Breaking up institutions does not boost competition & cld harm stability. He's not keen on Labour plans to break up banks #tsc

    Expect Ed not to announce it after all...
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    @AveryLP

    Thanks for your good wishes on my behalf, AveryLP. I hope the outcome for me will be as good as your mother's was. Carry on fishing. ;)
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    Notable that Rennard has not responded in the way that Farron asked him to. Rennard "I now look forward to resuming my roles within the Liberal Democrats"

    Farron "It is my view that Lord Rennard ought to reflect upon the effect that his behaviour has had and the distress which it caused and that an apology would be appropriate, as would a commitment to change his behaviour in future."

    "... it is clear that he did not behave in the way that a Chief Executive should behave. Lord Rennard must reflect on his actions and apologise to the women involved."

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/internal-investigation-into-allegations-against-lord-rennard-37847.html

    It would seem that the only response that the Lib Dem "Leadership" can now do is uninvite Rennard from any party event until he apologises. Maybe our Lib Dem members on pb can advise on this?
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    RodCrosby said:

    Lord Rennard's fulsome apology & commitment to reflect on his behaviour.....not:

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/statement-by-lord-rennard-37846.html

    Why should an innocent man need to apologise for anything?

    If I were the Mods I'd be watching closely the comments posted here....
    Well if Tim Farron says this

    Tim Farron, the president of the Liberal Democrats said that he was not “content” with the decision but has “no choice” but to accept Mr Webster’s conclusions. He added that Lord Rennard should apologise to the women concerned.
    Well Farron is an idiot who's just demonstrated he's unfit to hold any position of authority.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Lord Rennard's fulsome apology & commitment to reflect on his behaviour.....not:

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/statement-by-lord-rennard-37846.html

    Why should an innocent man need to apologise for anything?

    If I were the Mods I'd be watching closely the comments posted here....
    Well if Tim Farron says this

    Tim Farron, the president of the Liberal Democrats said that he was not “content” with the decision but has “no choice” but to accept Mr Webster’s conclusions. He added that Lord Rennard should apologise to the women concerned.
    Well Farron is an idiot who's just demonstrated he's unfit to hold any position of authority.
    He seems to understand that there is no legal risk to endorsing the call for Rennard to apologise though.
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    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Lord Rennard's fulsome apology & commitment to reflect on his behaviour.....not:

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/statement-by-lord-rennard-37846.html

    Why should an innocent man need to apologise for anything?

    If I were the Mods I'd be watching closely the comments posted here....
    Well if Tim Farron says this

    Tim Farron, the president of the Liberal Democrats said that he was not “content” with the decision but has “no choice” but to accept Mr Webster’s conclusions. He added that Lord Rennard should apologise to the women concerned.
    Well Farron is an idiot who's just demonstrated he's unfit to hold any position of authority.
    He is someone who has read the report in its entirety, whereas you have not, I take it?
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    See Guido for some very angry lib dem laydeez...
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Lord Rennard's fulsome apology & commitment to reflect on his behaviour.....not:

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/statement-by-lord-rennard-37846.html

    Why should an innocent man need to apologise for anything?

    If I were the Mods I'd be watching closely the comments posted here....
    Well if Tim Farron says this

    Tim Farron, the president of the Liberal Democrats said that he was not “content” with the decision but has “no choice” but to accept Mr Webster’s conclusions. He added that Lord Rennard should apologise to the women concerned.
    Well Farron is an idiot who's just demonstrated he's unfit to hold any position of authority.
    He's the nailed on Lib Dem next leader - coincidence ?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JohnRentoul: Brilliant work by @FullFact on EdM's claims. "Are there fewer jobs now for those in the middle?" #QTWTAIN http://t.co/66fP6w240U

    @JohnRentoul: "Are we either stuck in lower paid jobs or earning less in the middle?" EdM asks another #QTWTAIN @FullFact http://t.co/66fP6w240U

    Another one bites the dust...
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    So, there is a surge in party alignment, according to the chart above. But which party is surging, I wonder?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Lord Rennard's fulsome apology & commitment to reflect on his behaviour.....not:

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/statement-by-lord-rennard-37846.html

    Why should an innocent man need to apologise for anything?

    If I were the Mods I'd be watching closely the comments posted here....
    Well if Tim Farron says this

    Tim Farron, the president of the Liberal Democrats said that he was not “content” with the decision but has “no choice” but to accept Mr Webster’s conclusions. He added that Lord Rennard should apologise to the women concerned.
    Well Farron is an idiot who's just demonstrated he's unfit to hold any position of authority.
    Since Farron is paraphrasing the report - is that unfit for purpose too?

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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    A bit of advice.

    Keep the sexual harassment complaint forms in the bottom drawer. That way, when she goes to get one you'll get a great view of her arse.

    I must remember to e-mail that on to Mary Honeyball MEP.

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706
    A Lib Dem activist writes:

    Faced with the opportunity to take strong action, the Liberal Democrats have once more opted for cowardice. They have failed to say Lord Rennard's behaviour is unacceptable, they have failed to discipline him and therefore have failed to give victims the justice they deserve

    http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rvroj0
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    TGOHF said:

    Lord Rennard says he wants his job back.

    Will it be a hands on role ?
    They should nickname him Kali, because he's got four hands.

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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2014
    I posted a link to the the wrong resort on the last thread where ST is staying (at Murdoch's expense). It's actually this one:

    http://www.banyantree.com/en/samui/
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    Clegg tells Sky News that Rennard can whistle for his return to working for his 2015 election campaign.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited January 2014


    He is someone who has read the report in its entirety, whereas you have not, I take it?

    I read it...
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    FPT

    Sky News exclusive on drugs gangs is pretty good, but the copper being interviewed and expressing his shock at the professionalism and industrial nature of cannabis farming is a bit unbelievable. We deal with cannabis farms quite a bit, and local coppers tell me that in a medium sized town, they expect there to be at least six well run cannabis farms at anyone time.

    They have to talk bleep on the telly as otherwise it won'y tally with the BS crime stats e.g. like they had to act surprised over the grooming gangs.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706
    Christopher Hope tweets: BREAKING Nick Clegg statement due on Lord Rennard due on 20 minutes. Sources say he can rejoin Federal Policy Committee immediately...
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Clegg tells Sky News that Rennard can whistle for his return to working for his 2015 election campaign.

    Wolf whistles?
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Clegg tells Sky News that Rennard can whistle for his return to working for his 2015 election campaign.

    Rennard's statement seems strange. He must have known this was the likely response so why set himself up for the (presumably) embarrassing rebuff?

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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Christopher Hope tweets: BREAKING Nick Clegg statement due on Lord Rennard due on 20 minutes. Sources say he can rejoin Federal Policy Committee immediately...

    Without so much as a hint of an apology?! I doubt Clegg will be that silly.

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    After keeping Rennard in the party is Hancock going to get similar treatment?
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    edited January 2014
    RodCrosby said:


    He is someone who has read the report in its entirety, whereas you have not, I take it?

    I read it...
    Do you think the report's author is on dodgy legal ground by calling for Rennard to apologise?

    Do you think the behaviour described in the report warrants an apology?
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    What puzzles me about the Lib Dems is the lack of any effective action/statements by its (few) senior women. Where is Lynne Featherstone or Lorely Burt (standing for Deputy Leader)?

    They just seem to choose to dissappear whenever the antics of Rennard and Hancock etc happen or are complained about.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    edited January 2014
    RodCrosby said:


    He is someone who has read the report in its entirety, whereas you have not, I take it?

    I read it...
    Then again you've read the US constitution and said Obama is ineligible to be or run for President.

    How did that turn out ?

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    LennonLennon Posts: 1,733
    RodCrosby said:


    He is someone who has read the report in its entirety, whereas you have not, I take it?

    I read it...
    Can you point to it online (the report, not the statement) - can't see it on the LD's website or linked from LDV or News sites?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394

    On topic, voters are getting smarter and better able to see through the politicians' bullshit. Eventually this will hit a tipping point where the voters are so smart that it ceases to be in the politicians' interests to bullshit them all the time, and after a while their reputations will recover.

    Didn't Osborne and Cameron field-test this with their 'age of austerity' strapline in 2009? The Conservative poll-leads swiftly decline, IIRC. Also, one of the key conclusions of "The Worm" - the device they used to measure focus group reaction to the leaders debates in 2010 - was that the leaders dipped sharply whenever they talked about cuts, mainly Cameron.

    Of course, that might be because voters don't like Tories talking about (still less doing) cuts. But as Sean Fear has pointed out before, politicians wouldn't lie if telling the truth got them votes.
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    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited January 2014
    Another prominent LD female always ready for a tv interview these days is Tessa Munt MP. Yet nothing on Rennard?

    And then there is always the silent Shirley Williams.
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Scott_P said:

    @Samuelsdale: Carney: Breaking up institutions does not boost competition & cld harm stability. He's not keen on Labour plans to break up banks #tsc

    That sounds like the last dagger in the back of the Vickers report. As no country can survive a bankster takeover for long - especially one that's already been 90% looted - the sooner they bring it all crashing down the better I guess.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Lennon said:

    RodCrosby said:


    He is someone who has read the report in its entirety, whereas you have not, I take it?

    I read it...
    Can you point to it online (the report, not the statement) - can't see it on the LD's website or linked from LDV or News sites?
    I've googled a bit too and can only see the statement rather than the report as well. Would be interesting to see the version Rod has read.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Lennon said:

    RodCrosby said:


    He is someone who has read the report in its entirety, whereas you have not, I take it?

    I read it...
    Can you point to it online (the report, not the statement) - can't see it on the LD's website or linked from LDV or News sites?
    I meant the statement, which is the only thing anyone has seen, including Farron...
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    Official statement from liberal democrat women. "We expect an apology from Lord Rennard to the women to whom he has caused distress."

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/statement-from-liberal-democrat-women-37850.html

    Wow that's er... real punishment! From the Votes for prisoners school of penal justice.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    Blimey Dan Hodges hasn't followed the Tory line of chickening out of UKIP related bets


    Patrick O'Flynn ‏@oflynnexpress 38m

    Not a lot of people know this (ahem) but @DPJHodges has pledged to streak up Whitehall if UKIP gets more than 6.0% vote share at GE15.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706
    Perhaps Rod Crosby can answer Raphael Behr's tweet: If message from Lib Dems today isn't serial sleaze ok if you're also good at by-elections can someone explain what it is?
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    I see that the smearers in chief and presumers of guilt , Carlotta and TC are rather upset this afternoon .
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706
    Another idiot unfit for high office:

    Alistair Webster QC said very clearly that Lord Rennard should apologise and reflect on his behaviour and that is what I hope he will do because that is the unambiguous conclusion from this independent report by a QC,” Mr Clegg said.

    http://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/39702/no_rennard_action.html
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    isam said:

    Blimey Dan Hodges hasn't followed the Tory line of chickening out of UKIP related bets


    Patrick O'Flynn ‏@oflynnexpress 38m

    Not a lot of people know this (ahem) but @DPJHodges has pledged to streak up Whitehall if UKIP gets more than 6.0% vote share at GE15.

    Oh to be Dan Hodges.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Over this timeframe the ONS paints a different picture, saying that "the largest fall in incomes over this period has been for the richest fifth of households."

    http://fullfact.org/factchecks/miliband_middle_class_problems_stuck_low_paid_jobs_earning_less-29321

    I guess we are all in it together...
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706

    I see that the smearers in chief and presumers of guilt , Carlotta and TC are rather upset this afternoon .

    As shameless as Lord Rennard...who is it who owes the apology?

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706
    @RowenaMason: Nick Clegg: I as leader of the Liberal Democrats want to apologise to each and every one of those women again

    Why nothing from Rennard?
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    SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,650
    When is the Daily Mail going to print it`s apology?They tried to create a frenzy based on this during the Eastleigh by-election.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035

    On topic, voters are getting smarter and better able to see through the politicians' bullshit. Eventually this will hit a tipping point where the voters are so smart that it ceases to be in the politicians' interests to bullshit them all the time, and after a while their reputations will recover.

    Didn't Osborne and Cameron field-test this with their 'age of austerity' strapline in 2009? The Conservative poll-leads swiftly decline, IIRC. Also, one of the key conclusions of "The Worm" - the device they used to measure focus group reaction to the leaders debates in 2010 - was that the leaders dipped sharply whenever they talked about cuts, mainly Cameron.

    Of course, that might be because voters don't like Tories talking about (still less doing) cuts. But as Sean Fear has pointed out before, politicians wouldn't lie if telling the truth got them votes.
    I wouldn't use the debate worm as indication of anything. It's a dangerous (in the electoral sense) piece of technology that can all too easily be gamed.

    How many people were used to create the worm in 2010, and how were they chosen?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394
    Rod - whilst you're around (?) I just wanted to say I very much enjoyed your draft paper on PR^2. It was very well written.

    Has it been tried in any system of elections (local or national) anywhere in the world, do you know? Also, what feedback was given by the electoral commission on it? I understand an early form of the idea was put forward to them in 1998.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706
    SMukesh said:

    When is the Daily Mail going to print it`s apology?They tried to create a frenzy based on this during the Eastleigh by-election.

    No need:

    I have specifically discounted suggestions made during the investigation that the incidents had been invented as part of a political campaign against Lord Rennard.

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/internal-investigation-into-allegations-against-lord-rennard-37847.html

    Rennard owes the apology....not the Daily Mail.......
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    corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    Perhaps Rod Crosby can answer Raphael Behr's tweet: If message from Lib Dems today isn't serial sleaze ok if you're also good at by-elections can someone explain what it is?

    Perhaps Rod Crosby can answer Raphael Behr's tweet: If message from Lib Dems today isn't serial sleaze ok if you're also good at by-elections can someone explain what it is?

    The message is that there is insufficient evidence to prove the charges.

    Do you think a) The QC is wrong, b) there shouldn't be evidential standards for disciplinary action, or c) the party should ignore the evidential standards?
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''They tried to create a frenzy based on this during the Eastleigh by-election.''

    Grow up. The Mail would have undoubtedly been sued if they had printed anything libelous.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706
    corporeal said:

    Perhaps Rod Crosby can answer Raphael Behr's tweet: If message from Lib Dems today isn't serial sleaze ok if you're also good at by-elections can someone explain what it is?

    Perhaps Rod Crosby can answer Raphael Behr's tweet: If message from Lib Dems today isn't serial sleaze ok if you're also good at by-elections can someone explain what it is?

    The message is that there is insufficient evidence to prove the charges.

    Do you think a) The QC is wrong, b) there shouldn't be evidential standards for disciplinary action, or c) the party should ignore the evidential standards?
    As Tim Farron observes:

    Lord Rennard is not a current employee of the party and therefore the threshold that must be met for disciplinary action is higher than if this was a company HR procedure.

    Lucky Rennard resigned for health reason eh?
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    SMukesh said:

    When is the Daily Mail going to print it`s apology?

    After Lord Rennard gives his by the look of his statement.

    What, in particular, do you think the Daily Mail has to apologise for?
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited January 2014
    "Nick Clegg accused of 'cover up' and 'cowardice' as Lord Rennard is cleared.

    Alison Goldsworthy, one of the alleged victims, said: "Faced with the opportunity to take strong actnio (sic), the Liberal Democrats have once more opted for cowardice.

    "They have failed to say Lord Rennard's behaviour is unacceptable, they have failed to discipline him and therefore failed to give victims the justice they deserve.

    "Since this news became public, people from across the political spectrum have approached me to say that they too had been a victim of someone abusing a position of power. Today's verdict, and failure to take action, sends the message that this behaviour can go unpunished."

    Alison Smith, an Oxford University academic and former party worker who was also allegedly harassed by Lord Rennard, said that the Liberal Democrats have "orchestrated a cover-up".

    She said: "I am disappointed but not surprised. The [disciplinary] rules were designed to deal with cases like a Parish Councillor who embarrasses the party by making 'off colour' remarks."

    Damn those 'smearers in chief' and former party activists...?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/liberaldemocrats/10574316/Nick-Clegg-accused-of-cover-up-and-cowardice-as-Lord-Rennard-is-cleared.html
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    SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,650
    W

    SMukesh said:

    When is the Daily Mail going to print it`s apology?They tried to create a frenzy based on this during the Eastleigh by-election.

    No need:

    I have specifically discounted suggestions made during the investigation that the incidents had been invented as part of a political campaign against Lord Rennard.

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/internal-investigation-into-allegations-against-lord-rennard-37847.html

    Rennard owes the apology....not the Daily Mail.......
    Fair enough.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    I see that the smearers in chief and presumers of guilt , Carlotta and TC are rather upset this afternoon .

    As shameless as Lord Rennard...who is it who owes the apology?

    Not just rather upset but bitter and twisted with it .
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706
    Well that's that then......

    Nick Clegg has been accused of "cowardice" by alleged victims of Lord Rennard after the peer was cleared of sexually harassing female party activists.

    The former chief executive of the party claimed that he will resume his “old roles” despite senior Liberal Democrats saying they are “not content” with the findings.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/liberaldemocrats/10574316/Nick-Clegg-accused-of-cover-up-and-cowardice-as-Lord-Rennard-is-cleared.html
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706

    I see that the smearers in chief and presumers of guilt , Carlotta and TC are rather upset this afternoon .

    As shameless as Lord Rennard...who is it who owes the apology?

    Not just rather upset but bitter and twisted with it .
    That the Lib Dems continue to self-harm? Gutted, absolutely gutted.......

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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035

    I see that the smearers in chief and presumers of guilt , Carlotta and TC are rather upset this afternoon .

    My arguments at the time were mainly to do with the awful way the Lib Dems handled the original claims. It was hardly professional, was it?

    It would be interesting to see if they now have clear and publicised (within the organisation) procedures to handle this sort of thing, whether the accused is at the top or very bottom of the organisation. And the same goes for the other parties as well.

    Sadly, any organisation with thousands of members or activists (*) will contain a handful of bullies, predators and ner-do-wells. You will not be able to weed them out at interview; you need to be able to react when they act, and prevent such behaviour from escalating.

    If the Lib Dems had had such processes in place a few yeas ago, most of this unpleasantness could have been avoided. Which would have been of advantage to the party, the women, and Rennard himself.

    It is a totally self-inflicted wound.

    (*) Well, that may soon discount the Conservatives.... ;-)
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    corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    corporeal said:

    Perhaps Rod Crosby can answer Raphael Behr's tweet: If message from Lib Dems today isn't serial sleaze ok if you're also good at by-elections can someone explain what it is?

    Perhaps Rod Crosby can answer Raphael Behr's tweet: If message from Lib Dems today isn't serial sleaze ok if you're also good at by-elections can someone explain what it is?

    The message is that there is insufficient evidence to prove the charges.

    Do you think a) The QC is wrong, b) there shouldn't be evidential standards for disciplinary action, or c) the party should ignore the evidential standards?
    As Tim Farron observes:

    Lord Rennard is not a current employee of the party and therefore the threshold that must be met for disciplinary action is higher than if this was a company HR procedure.

    Lucky Rennard resigned for health reason eh?
    If you're saying the allegations were handled terribly when he was Chief Exec then I'm 100% with you.

    In terms of today, if a QC says there isn't enough evidence then I'm not sure what you expect Clegg/Farron/etc to do?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,394

    On topic, voters are getting smarter and better able to see through the politicians' bullshit. Eventually this will hit a tipping point where the voters are so smart that it ceases to be in the politicians' interests to bullshit them all the time, and after a while their reputations will recover.

    Didn't Osborne and Cameron field-test this with their 'age of austerity' strapline in 2009? The Conservative poll-leads swiftly decline, IIRC. Also, one of the key conclusions of "The Worm" - the device they used to measure focus group reaction to the leaders debates in 2010 - was that the leaders dipped sharply whenever they talked about cuts, mainly Cameron.

    Of course, that might be because voters don't like Tories talking about (still less doing) cuts. But as Sean Fear has pointed out before, politicians wouldn't lie if telling the truth got them votes.
    I wouldn't use the debate worm as indication of anything. It's a dangerous (in the electoral sense) piece of technology that can all too easily be gamed.

    How many people were used to create the worm in 2010, and how were they chosen?
    I believe it was an innovation from the US. It's a dial to show whether a sample of floating voters liked/disliked what a leader was saying in real time, see here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7621793/Leaders-TV-debate-viewers-poll-worm-turns-on-David-Cameron.html

    I agree it's a crude measure. However, it did give some indication of how difficult messages were going down during the leaders debates, although I seem to recall that even then both Brown and Cameron tip-toe'd around the really big issue of cutting the deficit. For this very reason.

    Voters do like honesty, as long as its about politicians talking about their own failings and not about hard unavoidable political choices that will affect them.

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    The same posters who were outraged at allegations against the subsequently convicted Mr Huhne seem to be similarly outraged today.

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706
    corporeal said:

    corporeal said:

    Perhaps Rod Crosby can answer Raphael Behr's tweet: If message from Lib Dems today isn't serial sleaze ok if you're also good at by-elections can someone explain what it is?

    Perhaps Rod Crosby can answer Raphael Behr's tweet: If message from Lib Dems today isn't serial sleaze ok if you're also good at by-elections can someone explain what it is?

    The message is that there is insufficient evidence to prove the charges.

    Do you think a) The QC is wrong, b) there shouldn't be evidential standards for disciplinary action, or c) the party should ignore the evidential standards?
    As Tim Farron observes:

    Lord Rennard is not a current employee of the party and therefore the threshold that must be met for disciplinary action is higher than if this was a company HR procedure.

    Lucky Rennard resigned for health reason eh?
    If you're saying the allegations were handled terribly when he was Chief Exec then I'm 100% with you.

    In terms of today, if a QC says there isn't enough evidence then I'm not sure what you expect Clegg/Farron/etc to do?
    Agree the original handling was poor, despite the protestations of some on here 'Its a Daily Mail/Channel 4 Eastleigh plot'- and today I think Clegg & Farron (who was much more on the ball at the time than Clegg) have hit the right note.....

    Its Rennard and his apologists who are keeping the story going...

    As Tim Shipman observes: "The Lib Dem tendency to perch on the fence has reached its painful apotheosis today with Rennard ruling. A proper shambles."
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''In terms of today, if a QC says there isn't enough evidence then I'm not sure what you expect Clegg/Farron/etc to do?''

    People are asking for an apology to the 'victims' but according to you, there weren't any 'victims'. Is that correct?

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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    Neil said:

    SMukesh said:

    When is the Daily Mail going to print it`s apology?

    After Lord Rennard gives his by the look of his statement.

    What, in particular, do you think the Daily Mail has to apologise for?
    Not being left wing?
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    corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    taffys said:

    ''In terms of today, if a QC says there isn't enough evidence then I'm not sure what you expect Clegg/Farron/etc to do?''

    People are asking for an apology to the 'victims' but according to you, there weren't any 'victims'. Is that correct?

    Where on earth are you getting that from?

    Should Rennard apologise, yes.

    But people are also criticising Clegg/Farron/etc, which given the investigating QC has said there's insufficient evidence to act on seems unfair.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,706
    No apology from Lib Dem accused of sexual harassment
    A senior Liberal Democrat accused of sexually harassing women has ignored requests to apologise and says he plans to begin working for the party once again.


    http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2014/01/15/no-apology-from-lib-dem-accused-of-sexual-harassment
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    TGOHF said:

    The same posters who were outraged at allegations against the subsequently convicted Mr Huhne seem to be similarly outraged today.

    and those posters who were outraged and presumed guilt of Mr Huhne and Lord Rennard have not expressed a single word abour Mr Evans .
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035

    On topic, voters are getting smarter and better able to see through the politicians' bullshit. Eventually this will hit a tipping point where the voters are so smart that it ceases to be in the politicians' interests to bullshit them all the time, and after a while their reputations will recover.

    Didn't Osborne and Cameron field-test this with their 'age of austerity' strapline in 2009? The Conservative poll-leads swiftly decline, IIRC. Also, one of the key conclusions of "The Worm" - the device they used to measure focus group reaction to the leaders debates in 2010 - was that the leaders dipped sharply whenever they talked about cuts, mainly Cameron.

    Of course, that might be because voters don't like Tories talking about (still less doing) cuts. But as Sean Fear has pointed out before, politicians wouldn't lie if telling the truth got them votes.
    I wouldn't use the debate worm as indication of anything. It's a dangerous (in the electoral sense) piece of technology that can all too easily be gamed.

    How many people were used to create the worm in 2010, and how were they chosen?
    I believe it was an innovation from the US. It's a dial to show whether a sample of floating voters liked/disliked what a leader was saying in real time, see here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7621793/Leaders-TV-debate-viewers-poll-worm-turns-on-David-Cameron.html

    I agree it's a crude measure. However, it did give some indication of how difficult messages were going down during the leaders debates, although I seem to recall that even then both Brown and Cameron tip-toe'd around the really big issue of cutting the deficit. For this very reason.

    Voters do like honesty, as long as its about politicians talking about their own failings and not about hard unavoidable political choices that will affect them.

    I'm aware what it is: I keep on wittering on about how bad it is, see the links below:
    http://bps-research-digest.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/live-worm-during-political-tv-debates.html
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0018154

    You can assume nothing from it. It can all too easily lead opinion, rather than show it.
This discussion has been closed.