I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
You’ve never had poor service then? It’s not about getting free stuff. My last complaint? I bought a latte from MacDonalds that was served cold. I’m certain it was from a previous order, and left on the side for ages, then given to me. I asked for it to be replaced, and it was, with a larger serving, which I appreciated but had not asked for or expected. Does that make me the dregs of humanity?
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
Five and a bit years on and you're still coming out with this "Remoaner" crap.
I also voted to leave in 2016 and it's embarrassing to see those who voted as I did still fighting the last war or the war before that instead of looking forward and trying to make a go of the new reality.
Let those who voted the other way have their say - ignore them if you want - but we have a responsibility to build a future for this country that works for us all however we voted.
I think of it as a useful public service. I don't use Twitter myself so I never know what the "FBPE Remoaners" are thinking. How else can I calibrate my political and cultural position except by figuring out what is currently triggering CR? 😉
I would argue that the social benefits of Covid, such as the WFH revolution and people having an opportunity to reprioritise in their lives, more than outweighs the social harms.
Yet there are those for whom the periods of enforced isolation have been purgatory whether because they are alone or with someone with whom they no longer want to live or for a myriad other reasons.
Many have, as you say, coped not only well but prospered. Getting off the commuting treadmill has been a positive personal benefit but I'd never want to generalise it.
It's clear some on here have found it hard going at times and if this forum has provided some much needed contact I'm delighted we've all managed to help each other through this.
Oh yes, I am not saying that it was a bed of roses. Some people certainly have struggled. Three months where my weekly adventure was taking the bins out got a bit wearing. However, taking a utilitarian approach, I think society has gained from the transition to the new normal.
I am not, of course, including the death and serious illness resulting from Covid in that equation - just the social impact.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I'm sure there are a lot of unreconciled Remainers who think that this proves that everything they ever said about Brexit was right.
However, I'm interested in why you don't have a problem with HMG's behaviour. Given the motivation for you to vote Brexit had a lot to do with democratic accountability, how does it work when a government wins a large majority on a campaign for "getting Brexit done" with an "oven ready deal", only to bore us all to tears less than two years later with another interminable negotiation to replace the very deal the public voted for?
How can the democratic relationship between voters and their representatives function when there is such fundamental dishonesty?
Now you may feel it's fine on this occasion, because they are sticking it to the EU, and annoying the Remoaners, but I think it sets a dangerous precedent that the government hasn't become a laughing stock for trashing the deal they were recently so proud of.
Have you forgotten that during the 2019 election campaign, Boris Johnson explicitly said that he wouldn't enforce NI-GB checks, prompting lots of people to say that he didn't understand the deal?
@blakeyblogs Asked if govt just won’t enforce alternative customs declarations needed for NI to GB shipments PM says “That's right - we're one UK territory, we need to get this deal done, get it over the line and take the country forward."
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
People should do what I do, and torch the place if they get bad service.
Ministers and civil servants are required by policy to set instant messaging chats to delete automatically, it has been revealed, as a judicial review over the government’s use of self-destructing messages was given the go-ahead.
The not-profit organisation the Citizens says the use of disappearing messages, which has been described as “government by WhatsApp”, violates British law on public records and freedom of information.
Its legal challenge comes amid concerns that the likes of WhatsApp and Signal, which have a disappearing messages option, are being used to avoid scrutiny of decision-making processes, including on significant issues such as the government’s coronavirus response.
At a high court hearing in London on Tuesday, it was revealed that the Cabinet Office’s “information and records retention and destruction policy”, disclosed in response to the Citizens application for a judicial review, obliges officials to delete instant chats.
The policy says: “Instant messaging is provided to all staff and should be used in preference to email for routine communications where there is no need to retain a record of the communication. Instant messages history in individual and group chats must be switched off and should not be retained once a session is finished. If the content of an instant message is required for the record or as an audit trail, a note for the record should be created and the message content saved in that.”
On a more general level I find that there are a lot of functionaries who take the idea of good records management to the extreme, taking the presumption of not keeping things that are not required to be kept so far, that I am sure a lot of things that are supposed to be retained get destroyed in the interests of 'tidying up' and to avoid seeming to hold data unnecessarily.
So people can come at it from both ways, seeking to obfuscate and seeking to treat data properly, and end up with the same result - no one can figure out what the hell happened.
Free movement wasn't really a big problem until three things came together:
(1) The integration of the EU 8, which were very significantly poorer than then existing EU members. When previously poor countries had joined (Portugal, Greece, Spain), they were relatively small, this was 8 countries (including one big one) all at the same time. The UK was also pretty much the only country not to go with transitional controls on immigration. This meant that instead of a few million people being spread out across the whole EU, they came mostly to the UK.
(2) The UK's benefits system. As far as I can tell, there is no other country in Europe that has either a system that is as non-contributory bases, not one which was so generous with in work benefits system like the UK. Prior to the Maastricht treaty, you could work in any member state, but there was no presumption of benefits. The consequence of this is that (pretty much alone of the countries in the EU), it was possible for a migrant to come to the UK and pick up benefits from day one.
(3) The Eurozone crisis, which caused a dramatic dip in demand for migrant labour in the Southern EU states *and* led to the exporting their own young.
Hold on. Are immigrants coming here and depressing wages or are they coming over here and claiming benefits?
Personally, I am broadly in favour of free movement of labour (on the basis that it is good for individuals, in that there is a wider variety of firms they can sell their skills to - and for companies, as there are more individuals they can hire).
What I oppose, though, is a system where people could come to the UK, having not paid a penny in tax or National Insurance, and receive benefits. That seems a very odd system.
I also find the argument that immigration has suppressed capital investment to be one which - while superficially plausible - does not seem to mesh with the fact. Both Switzerland and Germany have seen more immigration of unskilled and semi-skilled labour in the last five years than the UK (as a % of population), and yet both have seen very significant investment in automation.
So, Switzerland's Gross Capital Formation has risen from 22% to 27% as immigration has risen and Gemany's from 15% to 21%. While the UK remains marooned in the mid-teens. The simplistic explanation of "immigration means firms don't need to automate" seems to ignore the fact that in all the countries which saw even greater levels of Eastern European immigration did see much greater investment in automation.
I suspect that the big issue is that the UK has a consumption and services driven economy, which is much less easy to automate. But that is a much bigger problem to solve.
Yes I was being cheeky.
And yes, PT is trying to single out one part of one factor input to the economy, pointing a finger and saying: "told you so".
It is intuitively attractive. Millions of potential workers theoretically applying downwards pressure on wages in the UK such that employers only need pay the minimum because the supply of labour continues to shift the curve rightwards until it buffers up against the minimum wage. But there are too many variables involved to be able to make such a claim.
There weren't millions of workers on the minimum wage pre-expansion though - and now sectors reliant upon minimum wage labour are saying they're struggling to recruit without free movement.
We'll see what happens going forwards. The proof will be in the pudding, but if the proportion of jobs stuck the minimum wage ceiling comes down then I view that as a good thing. Do you?
Hang on.
That can happen two ways.
Imagine that in the UK today, there are 100 people working and 10 of those are doing minimum wage jobs. If 9 of those 10 are made redundant, then the proportion of people doing minimum wage jobs has declined 90% (yay!), but it's not because they're being paid more, it's because they are now unemployed.
I'd rather they were employed in minimum wage jobs than not employed at all.
So if the 1.5m increase in minimum wage employees were because they'd come off unemployment and into minimum wage that'd be reasonable. But that would also mean we had 750 million working people in the UK labour market.
The increase in the minimum wage from 4.50 to 7.20 over the same period (it also increased a fair amount as a % of median wages over that period) may also be a factor in the increasing numbers who were paid it.
If rising wages were the cause then you'd think logically the income of the bottom decile of wages would have risen relative to the median decile in the same time.
Spoiler: They didn't.
Minimum wage 2016 / 2003: 7.20 / 4.50 67% rise
Median wage 2016 / 2003 28,195 / 21,124 33% rise
Explain.
Minimum wage ≠ Bottom Decile
Try using the right figures and see the change.
My memory (and it might be wrong) is that the bottom income decile is dominated by the poorest pensioners, rather than by people in work earning minimum wage. I'm not sure it's therefore a good compare.
That's a good point, well made.
Can you think of a better comparator? If possible it'd be interesting to know the ~two-millionth lowest wage rate in 2003 and then compare that.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
People should do what I do, and torch the place if they get bad service.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I'm sure there are a lot of unreconciled Remainers who think that this proves that everything they ever said about Brexit was right.
However, I'm interested in why you don't have a problem with HMG's behaviour. Given the motivation for you to vote Brexit had a lot to do with democratic accountability, how does it work when a government wins a large majority on a campaign for "getting Brexit done" with an "oven ready deal", only to bore us all to tears less than two years later with another interminable negotiation to replace the very deal the public voted for?
How can the democratic relationship between voters and their representatives function when there is such fundamental dishonesty?
Now you may feel it's fine on this occasion, because they are sticking it to the EU, and annoying the Remoaners, but I think it sets a dangerous precedent that the government hasn't become a laughing stock for trashing the deal they were recently so proud of.
Have you forgotten that during the 2019 election campaign, Boris Johnson explicitly said that he wouldn't enforce NI-GB checks, prompting lots of people to say that he didn't understand the deal?
@blakeyblogs Asked if govt just won’t enforce alternative customs declarations needed for NI to GB shipments PM says “That's right - we're one UK territory, we need to get this deal done, get it over the line and take the country forward."
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
You’ve never had poor service then? It’s not about getting free stuff. My last complaint? I bought a latte from MacDonalds that was served cold. I’m certain it was from a previous order, and left on the side for ages, then given to me. I asked for it to be replaced, and it was, with a larger serving, which I appreciated but had not asked for or expected. Does that make me the dregs of humanity?
Well, clearly yes, as you were eating in a McDonalds.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
People should do what I do, and torch the place if they get bad service.
I just buy the place outright and sack all the staff.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
People should do what I do, and torch the place if they get bad service.
I just buy the place outright and sack all the staff.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I'm sure there are a lot of unreconciled Remainers who think that this proves that everything they ever said about Brexit was right.
However, I'm interested in why you don't have a problem with HMG's behaviour. Given the motivation for you to vote Brexit had a lot to do with democratic accountability, how does it work when a government wins a large majority on a campaign for "getting Brexit done" with an "oven ready deal", only to bore us all to tears less than two years later with another interminable negotiation to replace the very deal the public voted for?
How can the democratic relationship between voters and their representatives function when there is such fundamental dishonesty?
Now you may feel it's fine on this occasion, because they are sticking it to the EU, and annoying the Remoaners, but I think it sets a dangerous precedent that the government hasn't become a laughing stock for trashing the deal they were recently so proud of.
Have you forgotten that during the 2019 election campaign, Boris Johnson explicitly said that he wouldn't enforce NI-GB checks, prompting lots of people to say that he didn't understand the deal?
@blakeyblogs Asked if govt just won’t enforce alternative customs declarations needed for NI to GB shipments PM says “That's right - we're one UK territory, we need to get this deal done, get it over the line and take the country forward."
That refers to NI to GB shipments. It's the ones going in the other direction that are causing all the aggravation.
Not like you to make such a simple error.
That was just the first tweet I found that referred to it. Here's another one: "the PM invites people to call him up if they’re asked for customs forms and file them in the bin."
Either way he was very open about adopting a minimalist approach to border controls.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I’ve worked in service too, and I recognise some of what you say, but I think sometimes, service has been poor, and needs to be picked up on.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
You’ve never had poor service then? It’s not about getting free stuff. My last complaint? I bought a latte from MacDonalds that was served cold. I’m certain it was from a previous order, and left on the side for ages, then given to me. I asked for it to be replaced, and it was, with a larger serving, which I appreciated but had not asked for or expected. Does that make me the dregs of humanity?
Well, clearly yes, as you were eating in a McDonalds.
Nah, it was a outside... But, genuinely decent, cheap coffee.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
What incentive do they have to improve service if no one complains about crap service? Are they lying when they ask if everything was alright/was I happy with my meal?
It's also not the fault of the customer service staff when I complained about being overcharged by my electricity supplier, but unfortunately but I had to register the concern somehow.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
Free movement wasn't really a big problem until three things came together:
(1) The integration of the EU 8, which were very significantly poorer than then existing EU members. When previously poor countries had joined (Portugal, Greece, Spain), they were relatively small, this was 8 countries (including one big one) all at the same time. The UK was also pretty much the only country not to go with transitional controls on immigration. This meant that instead of a few million people being spread out across the whole EU, they came mostly to the UK.
(2) The UK's benefits system. As far as I can tell, there is no other country in Europe that has either a system that is as non-contributory bases, not one which was so generous with in work benefits system like the UK. Prior to the Maastricht treaty, you could work in any member state, but there was no presumption of benefits. The consequence of this is that (pretty much alone of the countries in the EU), it was possible for a migrant to come to the UK and pick up benefits from day one.
(3) The Eurozone crisis, which caused a dramatic dip in demand for migrant labour in the Southern EU states *and* led to the exporting their own young.
Hold on. Are immigrants coming here and depressing wages or are they coming over here and claiming benefits?
Personally, I am broadly in favour of free movement of labour (on the basis that it is good for individuals, in that there is a wider variety of firms they can sell their skills to - and for companies, as there are more individuals they can hire).
What I oppose, though, is a system where people could come to the UK, having not paid a penny in tax or National Insurance, and receive benefits. That seems a very odd system.
I also find the argument that immigration has suppressed capital investment to be one which - while superficially plausible - does not seem to mesh with the fact. Both Switzerland and Germany have seen more immigration of unskilled and semi-skilled labour in the last five years than the UK (as a % of population), and yet both have seen very significant investment in automation.
So, Switzerland's Gross Capital Formation has risen from 22% to 27% as immigration has risen and Gemany's from 15% to 21%. While the UK remains marooned in the mid-teens. The simplistic explanation of "immigration means firms don't need to automate" seems to ignore the fact that in all the countries which saw even greater levels of Eastern European immigration did see much greater investment in automation.
I suspect that the big issue is that the UK has a consumption and services driven economy, which is much less easy to automate. But that is a much bigger problem to solve.
Yes I was being cheeky.
And yes, PT is trying to single out one part of one factor input to the economy, pointing a finger and saying: "told you so".
It is intuitively attractive. Millions of potential workers theoretically applying downwards pressure on wages in the UK such that employers only need pay the minimum because the supply of labour continues to shift the curve rightwards until it buffers up against the minimum wage. But there are too many variables involved to be able to make such a claim.
There weren't millions of workers on the minimum wage pre-expansion though - and now sectors reliant upon minimum wage labour are saying they're struggling to recruit without free movement.
We'll see what happens going forwards. The proof will be in the pudding, but if the proportion of jobs stuck the minimum wage ceiling comes down then I view that as a good thing. Do you?
Hang on.
That can happen two ways.
Imagine that in the UK today, there are 100 people working and 10 of those are doing minimum wage jobs. If 9 of those 10 are made redundant, then the proportion of people doing minimum wage jobs has declined 90% (yay!), but it's not because they're being paid more, it's because they are now unemployed.
I'd rather they were employed in minimum wage jobs than not employed at all.
So if the 1.5m increase in minimum wage employees were because they'd come off unemployment and into minimum wage that'd be reasonable. But that would also mean we had 750 million working people in the UK labour market.
The increase in the minimum wage from 4.50 to 7.20 over the same period (it also increased a fair amount as a % of median wages over that period) may also be a factor in the increasing numbers who were paid it.
If rising wages were the cause then you'd think logically the income of the bottom decile of wages would have risen relative to the median decile in the same time.
"Rather than a positive story of more male part-timers working in good quality jobs, and satisfied with them, instead we found clear evidence of growing involuntary male part-time employment, low quality part-time jobs for larger numbers of men, and declining levels of job satisfaction, with working-class men hardest hit."
Our new research demonstrates the problematic nature of male part-time jobs in the UK, deepening over the period of recession, with men in working-class jobs taking the greatest hits in job quality and job satisfaction.
The potentially positive development of men voluntarily seeking shorter working hours in good jobs, with progressive repercussions for greater gender equality at work and within the home, appears to be a mere pipe dream. In reality, more men entered low quality part-time jobs because they were struggling to find suitable full-time opportunities in a tightening labour market. The implications for this development include intensifying class inequalities in the UK and negative impacts for families already struggling to keep afloat."
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
What incentive do they have to improve service if no one complains about crap service? Are they lying when they ask if everything was alright/was I happy with my meal?
It's also not the fault of the customer service staff when I complained about being overcharged by my electricity supplier, but unfortunately but I had to register the concern somehow.
I don’t bother complaining.
I just go to different restaurants in future.
If I want to complain about crap customer service, the M6 Toll would top the bill. They make the Student Loan Company look almost competent.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
He just threw one almighty strop. Not sure how that can be spun as a negotiating anything yet.
Lord Frost has worked out, correctly, that there's nothing to be gained by playing nicely with the EU, who will simply take the pleasantries for granted and push back firmly with immutable rhetoric and red lines of their own.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I cant imagine ever complaining in a restaurant really. If the food were inedible/cold I would ask for it to be replaced, but causing a scene would embarrass me more than having a pop would make me satisfied.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
He just threw one almighty strop. Not sure how that can be spun as a negotiating anything yet.
Lord Frost has worked out, correctly, that there's nothing to be gained by playing nicely with the EU, who will simply take the pleasantries for granted and push back firmly with immutable rhetoric and red lines of their own.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
People should do what I do, and torch the place if they get bad service.
I just buy the place outright and sack all the staff.
You're Withnail?!
Ha, ha - yes I'd forgotten about that bit! But didn't someone like Frank Sinatra actually once do it?
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I cant imagine ever complaining in a restaurant really. If the food were inedible/cold I would ask for it to be replaced, but causing a scene would embarrass me more than having a pop would make me satisfied.
I don’t get this. Complaining when there is an issue does not equal causing a scene.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I'm sure there are a lot of unreconciled Remainers who think that this proves that everything they ever said about Brexit was right.
However, I'm interested in why you don't have a problem with HMG's behaviour. Given the motivation for you to vote Brexit had a lot to do with democratic accountability, how does it work when a government wins a large majority on a campaign for "getting Brexit done" with an "oven ready deal", only to bore us all to tears less than two years later with another interminable negotiation to replace the very deal the public voted for?
How can the democratic relationship between voters and their representatives function when there is such fundamental dishonesty?
Now you may feel it's fine on this occasion, because they are sticking it to the EU, and annoying the Remoaners, but I think it sets a dangerous precedent that the government hasn't become a laughing stock for trashing the deal they were recently so proud of.
No-one (not even the EU) accepts the NI protocol is working as originally intended.
The Government is entitled to act in the interests of the integrity of the UK as a whole, and push as hard as it can to defend those interests.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I've worked in a bar and come across some real arseholes and some people who justly called out poor service at the bar, singles being served when a double was ordered because we lost the measure and had to free pour was the most common problem.
I think the whole thing is rubbish though. The UK isn't at a restaurant and the EU isn't a waiter bringing us cold, late food. This is both sides taking hard negotiation stances and hopefully meeting somewhere in the middle just as we did with the TCA. Under the premise of just accepting what you get the TCA would never have been possible and we'd have either got no acceptable deal and crashed out or got a deal so awful that it would have been junked by the next government (which is literally what happened when Boris took over).
People who aren't up for a fight are mugs, they get walked over in life and people treat them like the mugs that they are. You don't need to always fight but you always need to be ready for one. People like Olly Robbins would make for great marks.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I cant imagine ever complaining in a restaurant really. If the food were inedible/cold I would ask for it to be replaced, but causing a scene would embarrass me more than having a pop would make me satisfied.
I don’t get this. Complaining when there is an issue does not equal causing a scene.
It's a scene, it's just justified. I'd probably do the same as isam, though I know I shouldn't worry about such a thing.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
What incentive do they have to improve service if no one complains about crap service? Are they lying when they ask if everything was alright/was I happy with my meal?
It's also not the fault of the customer service staff when I complained about being overcharged by my electricity supplier, but unfortunately but I had to register the concern somehow.
To coin a Nick Palmer term, I think we're making a category error here. The people I'm referring to (and we all know at least one) don't do their complaining reluctantly. They revel in it. They boast about the refunds they got.
I've had bad service or poor food in restaurants in the past and have pointed it out when the waiter asked me how the meal was, but I would rather not have had the need to. If you point something out politely, 9 times out of 10 you get a polite and helpful response.
My ex brother in law - really nasty piece of work in more ways than one - used to complain everywhere. He got kicked off a plane, thrown out of IKEA, supermarkets. Was also a vexatious litigant. He actually fed off the energy of the whole thing. Being angry made him happy. Being angry seems to make Frost unhealthily happy.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
Five and a bit years on and you're still coming out with this "Remoaner" crap.
I also voted to leave in 2016 and it's embarrassing to see those who voted as I did still fighting the last war or the war before that instead of looking forward and trying to make a go of the new reality.
Let those who voted the other way have their say - ignore them if you want - but we have a responsibility to build a future for this country that works for us all however we voted.
It's not me fighting the last war.
I suggest you take up your points with the FBPE Twitterati and their little Sir Echoes in the Independent, Guardian and New European.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I'm sure there are a lot of unreconciled Remainers who think that this proves that everything they ever said about Brexit was right.
However, I'm interested in why you don't have a problem with HMG's behaviour. Given the motivation for you to vote Brexit had a lot to do with democratic accountability, how does it work when a government wins a large majority on a campaign for "getting Brexit done" with an "oven ready deal", only to bore us all to tears less than two years later with another interminable negotiation to replace the very deal the public voted for?
How can the democratic relationship between voters and their representatives function when there is such fundamental dishonesty?
Now you may feel it's fine on this occasion, because they are sticking it to the EU, and annoying the Remoaners, but I think it sets a dangerous precedent that the government hasn't become a laughing stock for trashing the deal they were recently so proud of.
No-one (not even the EU) accepts the NI protocol is working as originally intended.
The Government is entitled to act in the interests of the integrity of the UK as a whole, and push as hard as it can to defend those interests.
How should it have worked, how is it actually working, and who should have known most about NI to ensure it worked as intended?
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
He just threw one almighty strop. Not sure how that can be spun as a negotiating anything yet.
Lord Frost has worked out, correctly, that there's nothing to be gained by playing nicely with the EU, who will simply take the pleasantries for granted and push back firmly with immutable rhetoric and red lines of their own.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
It depends how.
If I was a proprietor I'd far rather have a diner complain to me about their dissatisfaction in person, provided it was done politely, rather than publicly sledge me on TripAdvisor.
The loud and pompous showoffs though, I quite agree with you.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
He just threw one almighty strop. Not sure how that can be spun as a negotiating anything yet.
Lord Frost has worked out, correctly, that there's nothing to be gained by playing nicely with the EU, who will simply take the pleasantries for granted and push back firmly with immutable rhetoric and red lines of their own.
So, he's playing hardball.
But has he made love to:
Fewer beautiful women than @Gardenwalker can even dream of?
More beautiful women than @Gardenwalker can even dream of?
About the same number of beautiful women as @Gardenwalker can even dream of?
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I cant imagine ever complaining in a restaurant really. If the food were inedible/cold I would ask for it to be replaced, but causing a scene would embarrass me more than having a pop would make me satisfied.
I don’t get this. Complaining when there is an issue does not equal causing a scene.
It's a scene, it's just justified. I'd probably do the same as isam, though I know I shouldn't worry about such a thing.
Raising a concern when you have an issue isn't making a scene, its giving the opportunity for a problem to be resolved.
Last time I can remember complaining in a restaurant is because my request of a rare steak arrived completely well done. I calmly said to the waitress that I'd requested it rare, I got an apology and a replacement steak after a wait which I was perfectly OK with. I've been back to that restaurant since, if the meal hadn't been replaced with one I'd ordered then I wouldn't have returned.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
Five and a bit years on and you're still coming out with this "Remoaner" crap.
I also voted to leave in 2016 and it's embarrassing to see those who voted as I did still fighting the last war or the war before that instead of looking forward and trying to make a go of the new reality.
Let those who voted the other way have their say - ignore them if you want - but we have a responsibility to build a future for this country that works for us all however we voted.
It's not me fighting the last war.
I suggest you take up your points with the FBPE Twitterati and their little Sir Echoes in the Independent, Guardian and New European.
They do love to endlessly retweet blue tick wankers and copy their bullshit onto places that aren't twitter. I wish they wouldn't do that because I end up reading the bullshit and sometimes I'm scared my eyes won't roll back into their correct position.
Boris would have turned that into a comedy moment when Boris becomes the star, and gets the laughs
Kir Royale sits there quite stiffly saying "very good, very good"
I feel for him because, like most people, he's NOT very good at being human and relaxed on camera (few people are, even fewer can be charming and amusing). But it IS a handicap
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
You served people broken glass in their water?!?
And only some complained..
I didn't make a habit of it.
I've complained about bad service or food, in extremis, but also sunk into the ground at people who made a habit of it for little reason.
I've never asked, where did you work by the way - are we talking trains round the ceiling, popular but cramped Mexican or one of the hotels / bars on the front? Populated by yahs by the sounds of it, which narrows the smallish range of suspects a little. (of course, my era may mean I've missed some obvious possibilities).
I think the following highlights the difference in worldview I alluded to. It cuts through human history and society. It's the fable of the scorpion and the frog vs the fable of the north wind and the sun.
"People who aren't up for a fight are mugs, they get walked over in life and people treat them like the mugs that they are. You don't need to always fight but you always need to be ready for one. People like Olly Robbins would make for great marks."
You either see the world in that way or you don't. Occasionally someone will have some kind of damascene moment and transform from being a fighter to a lover or vice versa because of some revelatory experience, but most of the time we are fixed in our personalities for life.
I did like the reference to the protocol being 'drawn up in extreme haste in a time of great uncertainty'. Which is probably as close as we shall get to an admission of why it turns out it is not working after all.
Free movement wasn't really a big problem until three things came together:
(1) The integration of the EU 8, which were very significantly poorer than then existing EU members. When previously poor countries had joined (Portugal, Greece, Spain), they were relatively small, this was 8 countries (including one big one) all at the same time. The UK was also pretty much the only country not to go with transitional controls on immigration. This meant that instead of a few million people being spread out across the whole EU, they came mostly to the UK.
(2) The UK's benefits system. As far as I can tell, there is no other country in Europe that has either a system that is as non-contributory bases, not one which was so generous with in work benefits system like the UK. Prior to the Maastricht treaty, you could work in any member state, but there was no presumption of benefits. The consequence of this is that (pretty much alone of the countries in the EU), it was possible for a migrant to come to the UK and pick up benefits from day one.
(3) The Eurozone crisis, which caused a dramatic dip in demand for migrant labour in the Southern EU states *and* led to the exporting their own young.
Hold on. Are immigrants coming here and depressing wages or are they coming over here and claiming benefits?
Personally, I am broadly in favour of free movement of labour (on the basis that it is good for individuals, in that there is a wider variety of firms they can sell their skills to - and for companies, as there are more individuals they can hire).
What I oppose, though, is a system where people could come to the UK, having not paid a penny in tax or National Insurance, and receive benefits. That seems a very odd system.
I also find the argument that immigration has suppressed capital investment to be one which - while superficially plausible - does not seem to mesh with the fact. Both Switzerland and Germany have seen more immigration of unskilled and semi-skilled labour in the last five years than the UK (as a % of population), and yet both have seen very significant investment in automation.
So, Switzerland's Gross Capital Formation has risen from 22% to 27% as immigration has risen and Gemany's from 15% to 21%. While the UK remains marooned in the mid-teens. The simplistic explanation of "immigration means firms don't need to automate" seems to ignore the fact that in all the countries which saw even greater levels of Eastern European immigration did see much greater investment in automation.
I suspect that the big issue is that the UK has a consumption and services driven economy, which is much less easy to automate. But that is a much bigger problem to solve.
Yes I was being cheeky.
And yes, PT is trying to single out one part of one factor input to the economy, pointing a finger and saying: "told you so".
It is intuitively attractive. Millions of potential workers theoretically applying downwards pressure on wages in the UK such that employers only need pay the minimum because the supply of labour continues to shift the curve rightwards until it buffers up against the minimum wage. But there are too many variables involved to be able to make such a claim.
There weren't millions of workers on the minimum wage pre-expansion though - and now sectors reliant upon minimum wage labour are saying they're struggling to recruit without free movement.
We'll see what happens going forwards. The proof will be in the pudding, but if the proportion of jobs stuck the minimum wage ceiling comes down then I view that as a good thing. Do you?
Hang on.
That can happen two ways.
Imagine that in the UK today, there are 100 people working and 10 of those are doing minimum wage jobs. If 9 of those 10 are made redundant, then the proportion of people doing minimum wage jobs has declined 90% (yay!), but it's not because they're being paid more, it's because they are now unemployed.
I'd rather they were employed in minimum wage jobs than not employed at all.
So if the 1.5m increase in minimum wage employees were because they'd come off unemployment and into minimum wage that'd be reasonable. But that would also mean we had 750 million working people in the UK labour market.
The increase in the minimum wage from 4.50 to 7.20 over the same period (it also increased a fair amount as a % of median wages over that period) may also be a factor in the increasing numbers who were paid it.
If rising wages were the cause then you'd think logically the income of the bottom decile of wages would have risen relative to the median decile in the same time.
"Rather than a positive story of more male part-timers working in good quality jobs, and satisfied with them, instead we found clear evidence of growing involuntary male part-time employment, low quality part-time jobs for larger numbers of men, and declining levels of job satisfaction, with working-class men hardest hit."
There is a major issue with men and the workforce.
But it's a multi-faceted one. Part of the problem is women in the workforce. Men used to compete with men. Now they compete with men and women.
But a bigger issue, I suspect, is that there has been a decline in the number of roles for men. Look at service industry employment in the UK vs manufacturing vs primary production. A lot of what you'll see is that the industries which are growing are the ones where men are a smaller share of the workforce.
In the good old days, the world was full of great C2 - skilled manual labour - jobs for men. Look at the US; workers in Detroit would learn a trade, and work in car manufacturing and have great healthcare and great lives.
Automation has come more for the jobs of lower skilled men, than for lower skilled women. (Cleaners, care home staff, housekeepers, child care, etc. are all still very much in demand.)
It will be very interesting to see if Brexit changes that. I would hope that it will, but it needs the government to be laser focused on encouraging the kind of industry that employ men, and on making sure said men have the skills needed for those industries.
I know that if I were setting up a manufacturing business today, I would almost certainly look to Eastern Germany rather than the UK - it has better availability of people with skills, better transport links, and great government support.
I think the following highlights the difference in worldview I alluded to. It cuts through human history and society. It's the fable of the scorpion and the frog vs the fable of the north wind and the sun.
"People who aren't up for a fight are mugs, they get walked over in life and people treat them like the mugs that they are. You don't need to always fight but you always need to be ready for one. People like Olly Robbins would make for great marks."
You either see the world in that way or you don't. Occasionally someone will have some kind of damascene moment and transform from being a fighter to a lover or vice versa because of some revelatory experience, but most of the time we are fixed in our personalities for life.
Workers of the world unite, you have nothing you can do but love your exploiters and hope for the best, or wait for the fighters in the world to take them on while you cower in the corner.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I cant imagine ever complaining in a restaurant really. If the food were inedible/cold I would ask for it to be replaced, but causing a scene would embarrass me more than having a pop would make me satisfied.
I don’t get this. Complaining when there is an issue does not equal causing a scene.
It's a scene, it's just justified. I'd probably do the same as isam, though I know I shouldn't worry about such a thing.
Raising a concern when you have an issue isn't making a scene, its giving the opportunity for a problem to be resolved.
Last time I can remember complaining in a restaurant is because my request of a rare steak arrived completely well done. I calmly said to the waitress that I'd requested it rare, I got an apology and a replacement steak after a wait which I was perfectly OK with. I've been back to that restaurant since, if the meal hadn't been replaced with one I'd ordered then I wouldn't have returned.
What constitutes a scene depends on the the person in question, in particular their general level of anxiety and embarrassment. I know I shouldn't consider a valid complaint a scene, but I would. And it's people who unjustifiably cause a scene don't think they are causing one.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I cant imagine ever complaining in a restaurant really. If the food were inedible/cold I would ask for it to be replaced, but causing a scene would embarrass me more than having a pop would make me satisfied.
I don’t get this. Complaining when there is an issue does not equal causing a scene.
Sorry I should have written I cant imagine ever causing a scene. I don't ever really complain though, I dont think I ever have - I always think its my fault for being fussy
I had a theory once that you never really lose your temper with anyone else, its always your own fault for making a bad call
Basically, the EU acted like a bunch of hard-arsed fuckers for three and a half years, making the UK continuously bend over and take it, panties haplessly dangled around our trembling little Brexit-negotiating ankles, and all the Remoaner voters CHEERED ON THE EU
The EU even boasted about it. "We will make Brexit so painful the British will wish they never voted for it". Michel Barnier, Le Figaro, 2016
Now, when the UK is repeating the process to Ireland and the EU, but with rather less obvious gloating, and rather more justification, the Remoaners ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE UK
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I’ve worked in service too, and I recognise some of what you say, but I think sometimes, service has been poor, and needs to be picked up on.
There's a great story about Jony Ive and Steve Jobs, who were staying at the St Martin's Hotel about twenty years ago.
They were both checking out and were asked by the manager "how was your stay sir?" Jony said "fine, fine."
Steve Jobs asked him "was it really fine?"
And Jony said "no, the bathroom had not been cleaned properly and the fridge made a terrible noise. but I'm English, I don't complain"
Steve Jobs said "that man is a professional, and you do him the courtesy of assuming he wants his hotel to run as well as possible. you should always tell people how they can do better."
I support the use of A16, because I think the EU has dragged its feet over the Trusted Trader programme. And we need to demonstrate we're serious about getting to the agreed end state.
But if we were always planning on using it, and didn't sign it in good faith, then I feel a bit more... icky. I always try and act with integrity in any negotiations I enter into, even if the other party has behaved poorly. If I'm not planning on abiding by something I shouldn't sign it.
Basically, the EU acted like a bunch of hard-arsed fuckers for three and a half years, making the UK continuously bend over and take it, panties haplessly dangled around our trembling little Brexit-negotiating ankles, and all the Remoaner voters CHEERED ON THE EU
The EU even boasted about it. "We will make Brexit so painful the British will wish they never voted for it". Michel Barnier, Le Figaro, 2016
Now, when the UK is repeating the process to Ireland and the EU, but with rather less obvious gloating, and rather more justification, the Remoaners ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE UK
And Remoaners wonder why they are widely disliked
EU shafted the UK, the UK now trying to shaft the EU, with a Boris negotiating masterclass in the middle.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
He just threw one almighty strop. Not sure how that can be spun as a negotiating anything yet.
Lord Frost has worked out, correctly, that there's nothing to be gained by playing nicely with the EU, who will simply take the pleasantries for granted and push back firmly with immutable rhetoric and red lines of their own.
So, he's playing hardball.
But has he made love to:
Fewer beautiful women than @Gardenwalker can even dream of?
More beautiful women than @Gardenwalker can even dream of?
About the same number of beautiful women as @Gardenwalker can even dream of?
These things matter.
Playing hardball with the EU is very much like making love to more beautiful women than @Gardenwalker
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I’ve worked in service too, and I recognise some of what you say, but I think sometimes, service has been poor, and needs to be picked up on.
There's a great story about Jony Ive and Steve Jobs, who were staying at the St Martin's Hotel about twenty years ago.
They were both checking out and were asked by the manager "how was your stay sir?" Jony said "fine, fine."
Steve Jobs asked him "was it really fine?"
And Jony said "no, the bathroom had not been cleaned properly and the fridge made a terrible noise. but I'm English, I don't complain"
Steve Jobs said "that man is a professional, and you do him the courtesy of assuming he wants his hotel to run as well as possible. you should always tell people how they can do better."
Very true. I have learned to complain, very politely, despite my English decorum. Because you are actually doing them a favour. Especially if you are in a pricey place (like St Martin's) which aims to be premium
Always sugar the pill. Start with what's good, "oh I love this and this," but then add "however this was a tiny bit annoying...."
The sign of a good aspiring hotel/restaurant is that they will calmly accept this critique and take it on board. If they get huffy, then fuck 'em. They absolutely deserve to be criticised!
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I’ve worked in service too, and I recognise some of what you say, but I think sometimes, service has been poor, and needs to be picked up on.
There's a great story about Jony Ive and Steve Jobs, who were staying at the St Martin's Hotel about twenty years ago.
They were both checking out and were asked by the manager "how was your stay sir?" Jony said "fine, fine."
Steve Jobs asked him "was it really fine?"
And Jony said "no, the bathroom had not been cleaned properly and the fridge made a terrible noise. but I'm English, I don't complain"
Steve Jobs said "that man is a professional, and you do him the courtesy of assuming he wants his hotel to run as well as possible. you should always tell people how they can do better."
Jobs is right, to an extent. The poor waitress really can't do anything about a badly run kitchen that's taking ages to deliver your food so telling her or worse shouting at her isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference. It's like people who shout at call centre agents, really these people can do nothing for you, they usually don't care very much and the major reason to not do it is that they aren't the ones that fucked up.
The difference is that Steve Jobs could conceivably call up the CEO of Marriott and tell him all the things wrong with that hotel and it would make a difference.
What's been great about the internet and TripAdvisor etc... is that it gave people the same power on aggregate to tell the management to get fucked and have a real impact on their business either through the new feedback loop or with poor reviews putting off potential customers hurting their prospects.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I’ve worked in service too, and I recognise some of what you say, but I think sometimes, service has been poor, and needs to be picked up on.
There's a great story about Jony Ive and Steve Jobs, who were staying at the St Martin's Hotel about twenty years ago.
They were both checking out and were asked by the manager "how was your stay sir?" Jony said "fine, fine."
Steve Jobs asked him "was it really fine?"
And Jony said "no, the bathroom had not been cleaned properly and the fridge made a terrible noise. but I'm English, I don't complain"
Steve Jobs said "that man is a professional, and you do him the courtesy of assuming he wants his hotel to run as well as possible. you should always tell people how they can do better."
Very true. I have learned to complain, very politely, despite my English decorum. Because you are actually doing them a favour. Especially if you are in a pricey place (like St Martin's) which aims to be premium
Always sugar the pill. Start with what's good, "oh I love this and this," but then add "however this was a tiny bit annoying...."
The sign of a good aspiring hotel/restaurant is that they will calmly accept this critique and take it on board. If they get huffy, then fuck 'em. They absolutely deserve to be criticised!
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I’ve worked in service too, and I recognise some of what you say, but I think sometimes, service has been poor, and needs to be picked up on.
There's a great story about Jony Ive and Steve Jobs, who were staying at the St Martin's Hotel about twenty years ago.
They were both checking out and were asked by the manager "how was your stay sir?" Jony said "fine, fine."
Steve Jobs asked him "was it really fine?"
And Jony said "no, the bathroom had not been cleaned properly and the fridge made a terrible noise. but I'm English, I don't complain"
Steve Jobs said "that man is a professional, and you do him the courtesy of assuming he wants his hotel to run as well as possible. you should always tell people how they can do better."
Jobs is right, to an extent. The poor waitress really can't do anything about a badly run kitchen that's taking ages to deliver your food so telling her or worse shouting at her isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference. It's like people who shout at call centre agents, really these people can do nothing for you, they usually don't care very much and the major reason to not do it is that they aren't the ones that fucked up.
The difference is that Steve Jobs could conceivably call up the CEO of Marriott and tell him all the things wrong with that hotel and it would make a difference.
What's been great about the internet and TripAdvisor etc... is that it gave people the same power on aggregate to tell the management to get fucked and have a real impact on their business either through the new feedback loop or with poor reviews putting off potential customers hurting their prospects.
And the genius of Uber was the driver rating. Otherwise it was just a minicab service with a nice interface.
What constitutes a scene depends on the the person in question, in particular their general level of anxiety and embarrassment. I know I shouldn't consider a valid complaint a scene, but I would. And it's people who unjustifiably cause a scene don't think they are causing one.
I think that's right, and not only do I not complain, I roll my eyes when friends complain. "Get a life!"
The stuff about getting rolled over only matters if you care. Sure, if someone tries to burn down my home, I'll react vigorously. But if a meal isn't quite what I wanted? A bus is 10 minutes late? There was only one towel in the bathroom? If you grumble about everything, you don't improve service, you just make yourself grumpy.
I think the following highlights the difference in worldview I alluded to. It cuts through human history and society. It's the fable of the scorpion and the frog vs the fable of the north wind and the sun.
"People who aren't up for a fight are mugs, they get walked over in life and people treat them like the mugs that they are. You don't need to always fight but you always need to be ready for one. People like Olly Robbins would make for great marks."
You either see the world in that way or you don't. Occasionally someone will have some kind of damascene moment and transform from being a fighter to a lover or vice versa because of some revelatory experience, but most of the time we are fixed in our personalities for life.
Workers of the world unite, you have nothing you can do but love your exploiters and hope for the best, or wait for the fighters in the world to take them on while you cower in the corner.
This is you right now.
This is also an interesting point. The world needs fighters at certain times, and definitely does not need them at others.
I wouldn’t have been at the vanguard of the Bolsheviks, no. Nor would I have been plotting to assassinate Hitler or overthrow Assad. I know enough about myself to guess that. You could say it’s cowardice.
On the flip side I’m pretty sure I’d not have joined the brownshirts, would have had no excitement in condemning my parents in the cultural revolution and would have rather run my market stall in peace than joined the Taliban or ISIS.
We have these mixes of features for evolutionary reasons. Not everyone’s the same. That’s just how it is.
Basically, the EU acted like a bunch of hard-arsed fuckers for three and a half years, making the UK continuously bend over and take it, panties haplessly dangled around our trembling little Brexit-negotiating ankles, and all the Remoaner voters CHEERED ON THE EU
The EU even boasted about it. "We will make Brexit so painful the British will wish they never voted for it". Michel Barnier, Le Figaro, 2016
Now, when the UK is repeating the process to Ireland and the EU, but with rather less obvious gloating, and rather more justification, the Remoaners ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE UK
And Remoaners wonder why they are widely disliked
EU shafted the UK, the UK now trying to shaft the EU, with a Boris negotiating masterclass in the middle.
Yes, essentially
The EU gave us a lesson in realpolitik from 2016-2019. It was painful, at times humiliating. Remember Boris being shouted down in Luxembourg?! Expressly designed to mortify him. Some counter-jumper of a Luxembourg politician actually decided to mock the British prime minister, publicly
But now we have entirely escaped the EU (partly because they were such twats, they lost all leverage). They really can't do much more to us without damaging their own economies equally. And this change has happened even as the West splits into two defence camps, to the consternation of the Scandinavians and East Europeans, who don't want to be left with the French
So we have more power than before. And we can occasionally humiliate some of them, and do some of our own realpolitik. As Boris did, with AUKUS
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I’ve worked in service too, and I recognise some of what you say, but I think sometimes, service has been poor, and needs to be picked up on.
There's a great story about Jony Ive and Steve Jobs, who were staying at the St Martin's Hotel about twenty years ago.
They were both checking out and were asked by the manager "how was your stay sir?" Jony said "fine, fine."
Steve Jobs asked him "was it really fine?"
And Jony said "no, the bathroom had not been cleaned properly and the fridge made a terrible noise. but I'm English, I don't complain"
Steve Jobs said "that man is a professional, and you do him the courtesy of assuming he wants his hotel to run as well as possible. you should always tell people how they can do better."
Jobs is right, to an extent. The poor waitress really can't do anything about a badly run kitchen that's taking ages to deliver your food so telling her or worse shouting at her isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference. It's like people who shout at call centre agents, really these people can do nothing for you, they usually don't care very much and the major reason to not do it is that they aren't the ones that fucked up.
The difference is that Steve Jobs could conceivably call up the CEO of Marriott and tell him all the things wrong with that hotel and it would make a difference.
What's been great about the internet and TripAdvisor etc... is that it gave people the same power on aggregate to tell the management to get fucked and have a real impact on their business either through the new feedback loop or with poor reviews putting off potential customers hurting their prospects.
And the genius of Uber was the driver rating. Otherwise it was just a minicab service with a nice interface.
Passenger ratings as well according to one of the drivers I had a few weeks ago, he won't take any passengers with less than a 4.5* rating because they'll fuck up his Model X with booze/sex/drugs/vomit or all of them.
I think the following highlights the difference in worldview I alluded to. It cuts through human history and society. It's the fable of the scorpion and the frog vs the fable of the north wind and the sun.
"People who aren't up for a fight are mugs, they get walked over in life and people treat them like the mugs that they are. You don't need to always fight but you always need to be ready for one. People like Olly Robbins would make for great marks."
You either see the world in that way or you don't. Occasionally someone will have some kind of damascene moment and transform from being a fighter to a lover or vice versa because of some revelatory experience, but most of the time we are fixed in our personalities for life.
Workers of the world unite, you have nothing you can do but love your exploiters and hope for the best, or wait for the fighters in the world to take them on while you cower in the corner.
This is you right now.
You sound like a Daily Mash story with the headline Man Sounds Well 'Ard On Internet.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I’ve worked in service too, and I recognise some of what you say, but I think sometimes, service has been poor, and needs to be picked up on.
There's a great story about Jony Ive and Steve Jobs, who were staying at the St Martin's Hotel about twenty years ago.
They were both checking out and were asked by the manager "how was your stay sir?" Jony said "fine, fine."
Steve Jobs asked him "was it really fine?"
And Jony said "no, the bathroom had not been cleaned properly and the fridge made a terrible noise. but I'm English, I don't complain"
Steve Jobs said "that man is a professional, and you do him the courtesy of assuming he wants his hotel to run as well as possible. you should always tell people how they can do better."
Jobs is right, to an extent. The poor waitress really can't do anything about a badly run kitchen that's taking ages to deliver your food so telling her or worse shouting at her isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference. It's like people who shout at call centre agents, really these people can do nothing for you, they usually don't care very much and the major reason to not do it is that they aren't the ones that fucked up.
The difference is that Steve Jobs could conceivably call up the CEO of Marriott and tell him all the things wrong with that hotel and it would make a difference.
What's been great about the internet and TripAdvisor etc... is that it gave people the same power on aggregate to tell the management to get fucked and have a real impact on their business either through the new feedback loop or with poor reviews putting off potential customers hurting their prospects.
And the genius of Uber was the driver rating. Otherwise it was just a minicab service with a nice interface.
Passenger ratings as well according to one of the drivers I had a few weeks ago, he won't take any passengers with less than a 4.5* rating because they'll fuck up his Model X with booze/sex/drugs/vomit or all of them.
My Uber rating is 4.58. Really low, relatively
I think it's because I was an early adopter and in the early days I would be viciously scathing of the first drivers who got it completely wrong (and boy, they did go utterly the wrong way often). They probably gave me 1 star ratings
Then I realised that as a passenger I was also being rated, so I started being nicer. Happily, the drivers got better, too.
But I agree the prices have recently gone insane, and they are much less reliable than they were. Gett and Bolt are receiving more of my biz, and the odd hailed black cab
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I’ve worked in service too, and I recognise some of what you say, but I think sometimes, service has been poor, and needs to be picked up on.
There's a great story about Jony Ive and Steve Jobs, who were staying at the St Martin's Hotel about twenty years ago.
They were both checking out and were asked by the manager "how was your stay sir?" Jony said "fine, fine."
Steve Jobs asked him "was it really fine?"
And Jony said "no, the bathroom had not been cleaned properly and the fridge made a terrible noise. but I'm English, I don't complain"
Steve Jobs said "that man is a professional, and you do him the courtesy of assuming he wants his hotel to run as well as possible. you should always tell people how they can do better."
Jobs is right, to an extent. The poor waitress really can't do anything about a badly run kitchen that's taking ages to deliver your food so telling her or worse shouting at her isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference. It's like people who shout at call centre agents, really these people can do nothing for you, they usually don't care very much and the major reason to not do it is that they aren't the ones that fucked up.
The difference is that Steve Jobs could conceivably call up the CEO of Marriott and tell him all the things wrong with that hotel and it would make a difference.
What's been great about the internet and TripAdvisor etc... is that it gave people the same power on aggregate to tell the management to get fucked and have a real impact on their business either through the new feedback loop or with poor reviews putting off potential customers hurting their prospects.
And the genius of Uber was the driver rating. Otherwise it was just a minicab service with a nice interface.
Passenger ratings as well according to one of the drivers I had a few weeks ago, he won't take any passengers with less than a 4.5* rating because they'll fuck up his Model X with booze/sex/drugs/vomit or all of them.
My Uber rating is 4.58. Really low, relatively
I think it's because I was an early adopter and in the early days I would be viciously scathing of the first drivers who got it completely wrong (and boy, they did go utterly the wrong way often). They probably gave me 1 star ratings
Then I realised that as a passenger I was also being rated, so I started being nicer. Happily, the drivers got better, too.
But I agree the prices have recently gone insane, and they are much less reliable than they were. Gett and Bolt are receiving more of my biz, and the odd hailed black cab
4.94
And Uber prices are rising because demand for labour is on the up. (And because Uber is more greedy than they used to be.)
What constitutes a scene depends on the the person in question, in particular their general level of anxiety and embarrassment. I know I shouldn't consider a valid complaint a scene, but I would. And it's people who unjustifiably cause a scene don't think they are causing one.
I think that's right, and not only do I not complain, I roll my eyes when friends complain. "Get a life!"
The stuff about getting rolled over only matters if you care. Sure, if someone tries to burn down my home, I'll react vigorously. But if a meal isn't quite what I wanted? A bus is 10 minutes late? There was only one towel in the bathroom? If you grumble about everything, you don't improve service, you just make yourself grumpy.
If you're paying £300 for a hotel room, and the shower doesn't produce hot water very fast, they REALLY need to know, because they are competing against similar hotels which will do this seamlessly. They are avoiding a really bad Tripadvisor review (which can be genuinely damaging)
They would prefer to have your personal feedback. So, complain
Of course if you are just at a Godalming Nando's: shrug
Basically, the EU acted like a bunch of hard-arsed fuckers for three and a half years, making the UK continuously bend over and take it, panties haplessly dangled around our trembling little Brexit-negotiating ankles, and all the Remoaner voters CHEERED ON THE EU
The EU even boasted about it. "We will make Brexit so painful the British will wish they never voted for it". Michel Barnier, Le Figaro, 2016
Now, when the UK is repeating the process to Ireland and the EU, but with rather less obvious gloating, and rather more justification, the Remoaners ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE UK
And Remoaners wonder why they are widely disliked
EU shafted the UK, the UK now trying to shaft the EU, with a Boris negotiating masterclass in the middle.
Yes, essentially
The EU gave us a lesson in realpolitik from 2016-2019. It was painful, at times humiliating. Remember Boris being shouted down in Luxembourg?! Expressly designed to mortify him. Some counter-jumper of a Luxembourg politician actually decided to mock the British prime minister, publicly
But now we have entirely escaped the EU (partly because they were such twats, they lost all leverage). They really can't do much more to us without damaging their own economies equally. And this change has happened even as the West splits into two defence camps, to the consternation of the Scandinavians and East Europeans, who don't want to be left with the French
So we have more power than before. And we can occasionally humiliate some of them, and do some of our own realpolitik. As Boris did, with AUKUS
The EU gives countries like Belgium and Luxembourg a stage to pretend they're important.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I’ve worked in service too, and I recognise some of what you say, but I think sometimes, service has been poor, and needs to be picked up on.
There's a great story about Jony Ive and Steve Jobs, who were staying at the St Martin's Hotel about twenty years ago.
They were both checking out and were asked by the manager "how was your stay sir?" Jony said "fine, fine."
Steve Jobs asked him "was it really fine?"
And Jony said "no, the bathroom had not been cleaned properly and the fridge made a terrible noise. but I'm English, I don't complain"
Steve Jobs said "that man is a professional, and you do him the courtesy of assuming he wants his hotel to run as well as possible. you should always tell people how they can do better."
Very true. I have learned to complain, very politely, despite my English decorum. Because you are actually doing them a favour. Especially if you are in a pricey place (like St Martin's) which aims to be premium
Always sugar the pill. Start with what's good, "oh I love this and this," but then add "however this was a tiny bit annoying...."
The sign of a good aspiring hotel/restaurant is that they will calmly accept this critique and take it on board. If they get huffy, then fuck 'em. They absolutely deserve to be criticised!
Basically, the EU acted like a bunch of hard-arsed fuckers for three and a half years, making the UK continuously bend over and take it, panties haplessly dangled around our trembling little Brexit-negotiating ankles, and all the Remoaner voters CHEERED ON THE EU
The EU even boasted about it. "We will make Brexit so painful the British will wish they never voted for it". Michel Barnier, Le Figaro, 2016
Now, when the UK is repeating the process to Ireland and the EU, but with rather less obvious gloating, and rather more justification, the Remoaners ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE UK
And Remoaners wonder why they are widely disliked
EU shafted the UK, the UK now trying to shaft the EU, with a Boris negotiating masterclass in the middle.
Yes, essentially
The EU gave us a lesson in realpolitik from 2016-2019. It was painful, at times humiliating. Remember Boris being shouted down in Luxembourg?! Expressly designed to mortify him. Some counter-jumper of a Luxembourg politician actually decided to mock the British prime minister, publicly
But now we have entirely escaped the EU (partly because they were such twats, they lost all leverage). They really can't do much more to us without damaging their own economies equally. And this change has happened even as the West splits into two defence camps, to the consternation of the Scandinavians and East Europeans, who don't want to be left with the French
So we have more power than before. And we can occasionally humiliate some of them, and do some of our own realpolitik. As Boris did, with AUKUS
The lack of any real leverage is what's driving such a hard line UK position. The government knows that in terms of economic impact the EU has already fired its biggest shots (city equivalence, agriculture/food equivalence, single sky etc...) so now it has nothing left to hit back with.
If they were smart they'd start talking about mutual recognition on agriculture/food with very wide alignment bands as well as on finance. That puts the UK back into the EU's regulatory orbit to more of an extent than today and it sidesteps a lot of the issues with the GB/NI border specific to food imports to NI.
Unfortunately they're going down the other path of talking up a trade war but both sides know that this is extremely unlikely and that the EU has got nothing left to fight it.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I’ve worked in service too, and I recognise some of what you say, but I think sometimes, service has been poor, and needs to be picked up on.
There's a great story about Jony Ive and Steve Jobs, who were staying at the St Martin's Hotel about twenty years ago.
They were both checking out and were asked by the manager "how was your stay sir?" Jony said "fine, fine."
Steve Jobs asked him "was it really fine?"
And Jony said "no, the bathroom had not been cleaned properly and the fridge made a terrible noise. but I'm English, I don't complain"
Steve Jobs said "that man is a professional, and you do him the courtesy of assuming he wants his hotel to run as well as possible. you should always tell people how they can do better."
Jobs is right, to an extent. The poor waitress really can't do anything about a badly run kitchen that's taking ages to deliver your food so telling her or worse shouting at her isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference. It's like people who shout at call centre agents, really these people can do nothing for you, they usually don't care very much and the major reason to not do it is that they aren't the ones that fucked up.
The difference is that Steve Jobs could conceivably call up the CEO of Marriott and tell him all the things wrong with that hotel and it would make a difference.
What's been great about the internet and TripAdvisor etc... is that it gave people the same power on aggregate to tell the management to get fucked and have a real impact on their business either through the new feedback loop or with poor reviews putting off potential customers hurting their prospects.
And the genius of Uber was the driver rating. Otherwise it was just a minicab service with a nice interface.
Passenger ratings as well according to one of the drivers I had a few weeks ago, he won't take any passengers with less than a 4.5* rating because they'll fuck up his Model X with booze/sex/drugs/vomit or all of them.
My Uber rating is 4.58. Really low, relatively
I think it's because I was an early adopter and in the early days I would be viciously scathing of the first drivers who got it completely wrong (and boy, they did go utterly the wrong way often). They probably gave me 1 star ratings
Then I realised that as a passenger I was also being rated, so I started being nicer. Happily, the drivers got better, too.
But I agree the prices have recently gone insane, and they are much less reliable than they were. Gett and Bolt are receiving more of my biz, and the odd hailed black cab
4.94
And Uber prices are rising because demand for labour is on the up. (And because Uber is more greedy than they used to be.)
I dont have an account, but a mate picked me up in an uber a year or two ago and the driver went straight across a crossroads without knowing it was there and could easily have killed us all - he then drove about 22mph for the rest of the journey, I cant believe he could actually have had a valid driving licence. So if I did have an acc, my rating would be quite low I guess
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I’ve worked in service too, and I recognise some of what you say, but I think sometimes, service has been poor, and needs to be picked up on.
There's a great story about Jony Ive and Steve Jobs, who were staying at the St Martin's Hotel about twenty years ago.
They were both checking out and were asked by the manager "how was your stay sir?" Jony said "fine, fine."
Steve Jobs asked him "was it really fine?"
And Jony said "no, the bathroom had not been cleaned properly and the fridge made a terrible noise. but I'm English, I don't complain"
Steve Jobs said "that man is a professional, and you do him the courtesy of assuming he wants his hotel to run as well as possible. you should always tell people how they can do better."
Jobs is right, to an extent. The poor waitress really can't do anything about a badly run kitchen that's taking ages to deliver your food so telling her or worse shouting at her isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference. It's like people who shout at call centre agents, really these people can do nothing for you, they usually don't care very much and the major reason to not do it is that they aren't the ones that fucked up.
The difference is that Steve Jobs could conceivably call up the CEO of Marriott and tell him all the things wrong with that hotel and it would make a difference.
What's been great about the internet and TripAdvisor etc... is that it gave people the same power on aggregate to tell the management to get fucked and have a real impact on their business either through the new feedback loop or with poor reviews putting off potential customers hurting their prospects.
And the genius of Uber was the driver rating. Otherwise it was just a minicab service with a nice interface.
Passenger ratings as well according to one of the drivers I had a few weeks ago, he won't take any passengers with less than a 4.5* rating because they'll fuck up his Model X with booze/sex/drugs/vomit or all of them.
My Uber rating is 4.58. Really low, relatively
I think it's because I was an early adopter and in the early days I would be viciously scathing of the first drivers who got it completely wrong (and boy, they did go utterly the wrong way often). They probably gave me 1 star ratings
Then I realised that as a passenger I was also being rated, so I started being nicer. Happily, the drivers got better, too.
But I agree the prices have recently gone insane, and they are much less reliable than they were. Gett and Bolt are receiving more of my biz, and the odd hailed black cab
Why not use traditional black cab taxis? [Unless you've got lost near Botany Bay].
What constitutes a scene depends on the the person in question, in particular their general level of anxiety and embarrassment. I know I shouldn't consider a valid complaint a scene, but I would. And it's people who unjustifiably cause a scene don't think they are causing one.
I think that's right, and not only do I not complain, I roll my eyes when friends complain. "Get a life!"
The stuff about getting rolled over only matters if you care. Sure, if someone tries to burn down my home, I'll react vigorously. But if a meal isn't quite what I wanted? A bus is 10 minutes late? There was only one towel in the bathroom? If you grumble about everything, you don't improve service, you just make yourself grumpy.
If you're paying £300 for a hotel room, and the shower doesn't produce hot water very fast, they REALLY need to know, because they are competing against similar hotels which will do this seamlessly. They are avoiding a really bad Tripadvisor review (which can be genuinely damaging)
They would prefer to have your personal feedback. So, complain
Of course if you are just at a Godalming Nando's: shrug
I think notifying them something isn't working is perfectly correct - I don't really consider that complaining, as you say, you are doing them a favour. I do feel sorry for them though, when I point things like that out.
Basically, the EU acted like a bunch of hard-arsed fuckers for three and a half years, making the UK continuously bend over and take it, panties haplessly dangled around our trembling little Brexit-negotiating ankles, and all the Remoaner voters CHEERED ON THE EU
The EU even boasted about it. "We will make Brexit so painful the British will wish they never voted for it". Michel Barnier, Le Figaro, 2016
Now, when the UK is repeating the process to Ireland and the EU, but with rather less obvious gloating, and rather more justification, the Remoaners ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE UK
And Remoaners wonder why they are widely disliked
EU shafted the UK, the UK now trying to shaft the EU, with a Boris negotiating masterclass in the middle.
Yes, essentially
The EU gave us a lesson in realpolitik from 2016-2019. It was painful, at times humiliating. Remember Boris being shouted down in Luxembourg?! Expressly designed to mortify him. Some counter-jumper of a Luxembourg politician actually decided to mock the British prime minister, publicly
But now we have entirely escaped the EU (partly because they were such twats, they lost all leverage). They really can't do much more to us without damaging their own economies equally. And this change has happened even as the West splits into two defence camps, to the consternation of the Scandinavians and East Europeans, who don't want to be left with the French
So we have more power than before. And we can occasionally humiliate some of them, and do some of our own realpolitik. As Boris did, with AUKUS
The lack of any real leverage is what's driving such a hard line UK position. The government knows that in terms of economic impact the EU has already fired its biggest shots (city equivalence, agriculture/food equivalence, single sky etc...) so now it has nothing left to hit back with.
If they were smart they'd start talking about mutual recognition on agriculture/food with very wide alignment bands as well as on finance. That puts the UK back into the EU's regulatory orbit to more of an extent than today and it sidesteps a lot of the issues with the GB/NI border specific to food imports to NI.
Unfortunately they're going down the other path of talking up a trade war but both sides know that this is extremely unlikely and that the EU has got nothing left to fight it.
I think the broader point (and they're yet to realise this) is that the EU is becoming increasingly insular and geopolitically irrelevant. It doesn't contribute to NATO. It isn't giving much leadership on climate change. It acquieses about Russia and is ambivalent about China. It is becoming a secondary bit-player.
It can control access to its market and regulate it accordingly, but that's about it.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I’ve worked in service too, and I recognise some of what you say, but I think sometimes, service has been poor, and needs to be picked up on.
There's a great story about Jony Ive and Steve Jobs, who were staying at the St Martin's Hotel about twenty years ago.
They were both checking out and were asked by the manager "how was your stay sir?" Jony said "fine, fine."
Steve Jobs asked him "was it really fine?"
And Jony said "no, the bathroom had not been cleaned properly and the fridge made a terrible noise. but I'm English, I don't complain"
Steve Jobs said "that man is a professional, and you do him the courtesy of assuming he wants his hotel to run as well as possible. you should always tell people how they can do better."
Jobs is right, to an extent. The poor waitress really can't do anything about a badly run kitchen that's taking ages to deliver your food so telling her or worse shouting at her isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference. It's like people who shout at call centre agents, really these people can do nothing for you, they usually don't care very much and the major reason to not do it is that they aren't the ones that fucked up.
The difference is that Steve Jobs could conceivably call up the CEO of Marriott and tell him all the things wrong with that hotel and it would make a difference.
What's been great about the internet and TripAdvisor etc... is that it gave people the same power on aggregate to tell the management to get fucked and have a real impact on their business either through the new feedback loop or with poor reviews putting off potential customers hurting their prospects.
And the genius of Uber was the driver rating. Otherwise it was just a minicab service with a nice interface.
Passenger ratings as well according to one of the drivers I had a few weeks ago, he won't take any passengers with less than a 4.5* rating because they'll fuck up his Model X with booze/sex/drugs/vomit or all of them.
My Uber rating is 4.58. Really low, relatively
I think it's because I was an early adopter and in the early days I would be viciously scathing of the first drivers who got it completely wrong (and boy, they did go utterly the wrong way often). They probably gave me 1 star ratings
Then I realised that as a passenger I was also being rated, so I started being nicer. Happily, the drivers got better, too.
But I agree the prices have recently gone insane, and they are much less reliable than they were. Gett and Bolt are receiving more of my biz, and the odd hailed black cab
4.94
And Uber prices are rising because demand for labour is on the up. (And because Uber is more greedy than they used to be.)
Mine was great until my wife vomited in one when she was pregnant last year, that 1* really hit my rating.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
I’ve worked in service too, and I recognise some of what you say, but I think sometimes, service has been poor, and needs to be picked up on.
There's a great story about Jony Ive and Steve Jobs, who were staying at the St Martin's Hotel about twenty years ago.
They were both checking out and were asked by the manager "how was your stay sir?" Jony said "fine, fine."
Steve Jobs asked him "was it really fine?"
And Jony said "no, the bathroom had not been cleaned properly and the fridge made a terrible noise. but I'm English, I don't complain"
Steve Jobs said "that man is a professional, and you do him the courtesy of assuming he wants his hotel to run as well as possible. you should always tell people how they can do better."
Jobs is right, to an extent. The poor waitress really can't do anything about a badly run kitchen that's taking ages to deliver your food so telling her or worse shouting at her isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference. It's like people who shout at call centre agents, really these people can do nothing for you, they usually don't care very much and the major reason to not do it is that they aren't the ones that fucked up.
The difference is that Steve Jobs could conceivably call up the CEO of Marriott and tell him all the things wrong with that hotel and it would make a difference.
What's been great about the internet and TripAdvisor etc... is that it gave people the same power on aggregate to tell the management to get fucked and have a real impact on their business either through the new feedback loop or with poor reviews putting off potential customers hurting their prospects.
And the genius of Uber was the driver rating. Otherwise it was just a minicab service with a nice interface.
Passenger ratings as well according to one of the drivers I had a few weeks ago, he won't take any passengers with less than a 4.5* rating because they'll fuck up his Model X with booze/sex/drugs/vomit or all of them.
My Uber rating is 4.58. Really low, relatively
I think it's because I was an early adopter and in the early days I would be viciously scathing of the first drivers who got it completely wrong (and boy, they did go utterly the wrong way often). They probably gave me 1 star ratings
Then I realised that as a passenger I was also being rated, so I started being nicer. Happily, the drivers got better, too.
But I agree the prices have recently gone insane, and they are much less reliable than they were. Gett and Bolt are receiving more of my biz, and the odd hailed black cab
Why not use traditional black cab taxis? [Unless you've got lost near Botany Bay].
Because sometimes you need a bit of luxury, booking the executive and lux cars are fab.
I saw reports that Scotland fans booed the Israeli anthem the other day. I've heard it defended as normal football fan behaviour to boo the other team's national anthem; I wonder how many of the people who were booing would agree that it was normal fan behaviour, and how many thought they were making an anti-Zionist political point.
I also wondered if there are people who would boo the Israeli song and boo the BLM kneel.
I reckon they, if they exist, are the dregs of humanity.
Comments
I am not, of course, including the death and serious illness resulting from Covid in that equation - just the social impact.
@blakeyblogs
Asked if govt just won’t enforce alternative customs declarations needed for NI to GB shipments PM says “That's right - we're one UK territory, we need to get this deal done, get it over the line and take the country forward."
https://twitter.com/blakeyblogs/status/1192759453453635584
On a more general level I find that there are a lot of functionaries who take the idea of good records management to the extreme, taking the presumption of not keeping things that are not required to be kept so far, that I am sure a lot of things that are supposed to be retained get destroyed in the interests of 'tidying up' and to avoid seeming to hold data unnecessarily.
So people can come at it from both ways, seeking to obfuscate and seeking to treat data properly, and end up with the same result - no one can figure out what the hell happened.
Can you think of a better comparator? If possible it'd be interesting to know the ~two-millionth lowest wage rate in 2003 and then compare that.
Not like you to make such a simple error.
And only some complained..
Either way he was very open about adopting a minimalist approach to border controls.
https://twitter.com/ManufacturingNI/status/1192801585140768769
But, genuinely decent, cheap coffee.
It's also not the fault of the customer service staff when I complained about being overcharged by my electricity supplier, but unfortunately but I had to register the concern somehow.
Our new research demonstrates the problematic nature of male part-time jobs in the UK, deepening over the period of recession, with men in working-class jobs taking the greatest hits in job quality and job satisfaction.
The potentially positive development of men voluntarily seeking shorter working hours in good jobs, with progressive repercussions for greater gender equality at work and within the home, appears to be a mere pipe dream. In reality, more men entered low quality part-time jobs because they were struggling to find suitable full-time opportunities in a tightening labour market. The implications for this development include intensifying class inequalities in the UK and negative impacts for families already struggling to keep afloat."
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/growing-part-time-employment-among-men/
I just go to different restaurants in future.
If I want to complain about crap customer service, the M6 Toll would top the bill. They make the Student Loan Company look almost competent.
So, he's playing hardball.
"Professor says career ‘effectively ended’ by union’s transphobia claims"
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/oct/12/professor-says-career-effectively-ended-by-unions-transphobia-claims
The Government is entitled to act in the interests of the integrity of the UK as a whole, and push as hard as it can to defend those interests.
I think the whole thing is rubbish though. The UK isn't at a restaurant and the EU isn't a waiter bringing us cold, late food. This is both sides taking hard negotiation stances and hopefully meeting somewhere in the middle just as we did with the TCA. Under the premise of just accepting what you get the TCA would never have been possible and we'd have either got no acceptable deal and crashed out or got a deal so awful that it would have been junked by the next government (which is literally what happened when Boris took over).
People who aren't up for a fight are mugs, they get walked over in life and people treat them like the mugs that they are. You don't need to always fight but you always need to be ready for one. People like Olly Robbins would make for great marks.
I've had bad service or poor food in restaurants in the past and have pointed it out when the waiter asked me how the meal was, but I would rather not have had the need to. If you point something out politely, 9 times out of 10 you get a polite and helpful response.
My ex brother in law - really nasty piece of work in more ways than one - used to complain everywhere. He got kicked off a plane, thrown out of IKEA, supermarkets. Was also a vexatious litigant. He actually fed off the energy of the whole thing. Being angry made him happy. Being angry seems to make Frost unhealthily happy.
I suggest you take up your points with the FBPE Twitterati and their little Sir Echoes in the Independent, Guardian and New European.
Divorces and mistresses don't come cheap as the Prime Minister can testify.
If I was a proprietor I'd far rather have a diner complain to me about their dissatisfaction in person, provided it was done politely, rather than publicly sledge me on TripAdvisor.
The loud and pompous showoffs though, I quite agree with you.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58824804
Fewer beautiful women than @Gardenwalker can even dream of?
More beautiful women than @Gardenwalker can even dream of?
About the same number of beautiful women as @Gardenwalker can even dream of?
These things matter.
Last time I can remember complaining in a restaurant is because my request of a rare steak arrived completely well done. I calmly said to the waitress that I'd requested it rare, I got an apology and a replacement steak after a wait which I was perfectly OK with. I've been back to that restaurant since, if the meal hadn't been replaced with one I'd ordered then I wouldn't have returned.
https://twitter.com/DavidGauke/status/1447939044151791627
Kir Royale sits there quite stiffly saying "very good, very good"
I feel for him because, like most people, he's NOT very good at being human and relaxed on camera (few people are, even fewer can be charming and amusing). But it IS a handicap
I've never asked, where did you work by the way - are we talking trains round the ceiling, popular but cramped Mexican or one of the hotels / bars on the front? Populated by yahs by the sounds of it, which narrows the smallish range of suspects a little. (of course, my era may mean I've missed some obvious possibilities).
"People who aren't up for a fight are mugs, they get walked over in life and people treat them like the mugs that they are. You don't need to always fight but you always need to be ready for one. People like Olly Robbins would make for great marks."
You either see the world in that way or you don't. Occasionally someone will have some kind of damascene moment and transform from being a fighter to a lover or vice versa because of some revelatory experience, but most of the time we are fixed in our personalities for life.
But it's a multi-faceted one. Part of the problem is women in the workforce. Men used to compete with men. Now they compete with men and women.
But a bigger issue, I suspect, is that there has been a decline in the number of roles for men. Look at service industry employment in the UK vs manufacturing vs primary production. A lot of what you'll see is that the industries which are growing are the ones where men are a smaller share of the workforce.
In the good old days, the world was full of great C2 - skilled manual labour - jobs for men. Look at the US; workers in Detroit would learn a trade, and work in car manufacturing and have great healthcare and great lives.
Automation has come more for the jobs of lower skilled men, than for lower skilled women. (Cleaners, care home staff, housekeepers, child care, etc. are all still very much in demand.)
It will be very interesting to see if Brexit changes that. I would hope that it will, but it needs the government to be laser focused on encouraging the kind of industry that employ men, and on making sure said men have the skills needed for those industries.
I know that if I were setting up a manufacturing business today, I would almost certainly look to Eastern Germany rather than the UK - it has better availability of people with skills, better transport links, and great government support.
This is you right now.
I had a theory once that you never really lose your temper with anyone else, its always your own fault for making a bad call
The EU even boasted about it. "We will make Brexit so painful the British will wish they never voted for it". Michel Barnier, Le Figaro, 2016
Now, when the UK is repeating the process to Ireland and the EU, but with rather less obvious gloating, and rather more justification, the Remoaners ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE UK
And Remoaners wonder why they are widely disliked
They were both checking out and were asked by the manager "how was your stay sir?" Jony said "fine, fine."
Steve Jobs asked him "was it really fine?"
And Jony said "no, the bathroom had not been cleaned properly and the fridge made a terrible noise. but I'm English, I don't complain"
Steve Jobs said "that man is a professional, and you do him the courtesy of assuming he wants his hotel to run as well as possible. you should always tell people how they can do better."
But if we were always planning on using it, and didn't sign it in good faith, then I feel a bit more... icky. I always try and act with integrity in any negotiations I enter into, even if the other party has behaved poorly. If I'm not planning on abiding by something I shouldn't sign it.
Always sugar the pill. Start with what's good, "oh I love this and this," but then add "however this was a tiny bit annoying...."
The sign of a good aspiring hotel/restaurant is that they will calmly accept this critique and take it on board. If they get huffy, then fuck 'em. They absolutely deserve to be criticised!
The difference is that Steve Jobs could conceivably call up the CEO of Marriott and tell him all the things wrong with that hotel and it would make a difference.
What's been great about the internet and TripAdvisor etc... is that it gave people the same power on aggregate to tell the management to get fucked and have a real impact on their business either through the new feedback loop or with poor reviews putting off potential customers hurting their prospects.
The stuff about getting rolled over only matters if you care. Sure, if someone tries to burn down my home, I'll react vigorously. But if a meal isn't quite what I wanted? A bus is 10 minutes late? There was only one towel in the bathroom? If you grumble about everything, you don't improve service, you just make yourself grumpy.
I wouldn’t have been at the vanguard of the Bolsheviks, no. Nor would I have been plotting to assassinate Hitler or overthrow Assad. I know enough about myself to guess that. You could say it’s cowardice.
On the flip side I’m pretty sure I’d not have joined the brownshirts, would have had no excitement in condemning my parents in the cultural revolution and would have rather run my market stall in peace than joined the Taliban or ISIS.
We have these mixes of features for evolutionary reasons. Not everyone’s the same. That’s just how it is.
The EU gave us a lesson in realpolitik from 2016-2019. It was painful, at times humiliating. Remember Boris being shouted down in Luxembourg?! Expressly designed to mortify him. Some counter-jumper of a Luxembourg politician actually decided to mock the British prime minister, publicly
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2019/sep/16/luxembourg-pm-holds-press-conference-alone-after-protesters-boo-boris-johnson-video
But now we have entirely escaped the EU (partly because they were such twats, they lost all leverage). They really can't do much more to us without damaging their own economies equally. And this change has happened even as the West splits into two defence camps, to the consternation of the Scandinavians and East Europeans, who don't want to be left with the French
So we have more power than before. And we can occasionally humiliate some of them, and do some of our own realpolitik. As Boris did, with AUKUS
They should be embarrassed that it is still nil nil, I mean if you can't beat Scotland then should you be even playing international football?
I think it's because I was an early adopter and in the early days I would be viciously scathing of the first drivers who got it completely wrong (and boy, they did go utterly the wrong way often). They probably gave me 1 star ratings
Then I realised that as a passenger I was also being rated, so I started being nicer. Happily, the drivers got better, too.
But I agree the prices have recently gone insane, and they are much less reliable than they were. Gett and Bolt are receiving more of my biz, and the odd hailed black cab
And Uber prices are rising because demand for labour is on the up. (And because Uber is more greedy than they used to be.)
They would prefer to have your personal feedback. So, complain
Of course if you are just at a Godalming Nando's: shrug
If they were smart they'd start talking about mutual recognition on agriculture/food with very wide alignment bands as well as on finance. That puts the UK back into the EU's regulatory orbit to more of an extent than today and it sidesteps a lot of the issues with the GB/NI border specific to food imports to NI.
Unfortunately they're going down the other path of talking up a trade war but both sides know that this is extremely unlikely and that the EU has got nothing left to fight it.
I still didn't complain though!
My motivational comment did the trick.
It can control access to its market and regulate it accordingly, but that's about it.
Also the reserve feature is great.
I also wondered if there are people who would boo the Israeli song and boo the BLM kneel.
I reckon they, if they exist, are the dregs of humanity.