What constitutes a scene depends on the the person in question, in particular their general level of anxiety and embarrassment. I know I shouldn't consider a valid complaint a scene, but I would. And it's people who unjustifiably cause a scene don't think they are causing one.
I think that's right, and not only do I not complain, I roll my eyes when friends complain. "Get a life!"
The stuff about getting rolled over only matters if you care. Sure, if someone tries to burn down my home, I'll react vigorously. But if a meal isn't quite what I wanted? A bus is 10 minutes late? There was only one towel in the bathroom? If you grumble about everything, you don't improve service, you just make yourself grumpy.
If you're paying £300 for a hotel room, and the shower doesn't produce hot water very fast, they REALLY need to know, because they are competing against similar hotels which will do this seamlessly. They are avoiding a really bad Tripadvisor review (which can be genuinely damaging)
They would prefer to have your personal feedback. So, complain
Of course if you are just at a Godalming Nando's: shrug
I think notifying them something isn't working is perfectly correct - I don't really consider that complaining, as you say, you are doing them a favour. I do feel sorry for them though, when I point things like that out.
This went viral a couple of days ago (tho I believe the original video is from 2019 or something)
This is obviously the kind of complaining we can do without. The amazing thing is the guy that filmed it, clearly thinking it made him look like a martyr? Unless the whole thing was a staged joke, but it feels real
What constitutes a scene depends on the the person in question, in particular their general level of anxiety and embarrassment. I know I shouldn't consider a valid complaint a scene, but I would. And it's people who unjustifiably cause a scene don't think they are causing one.
I think that's right, and not only do I not complain, I roll my eyes when friends complain. "Get a life!"
The stuff about getting rolled over only matters if you care. Sure, if someone tries to burn down my home, I'll react vigorously. But if a meal isn't quite what I wanted? A bus is 10 minutes late? There was only one towel in the bathroom? If you grumble about everything, you don't improve service, you just make yourself grumpy.
If you're paying £300 for a hotel room, and the shower doesn't produce hot water very fast, they REALLY need to know, because they are competing against similar hotels which will do this seamlessly. They are avoiding a really bad Tripadvisor review (which can be genuinely damaging)
They would prefer to have your personal feedback. So, complain
Of course if you are just at a Godalming Nando's: shrug
I think notifying them something isn't working is perfectly correct - I don't really consider that complaining, as you say, you are doing them a favour. I do feel sorry for them though, when I point things like that out.
This went viral a couple of days ago (tho I believe the original video is from 2019 or something)
This is obviously the kind of complaining we can do without. The amazing thing is the guy that filmed it, clearly thinking it made him look like a martyr? Unless the whole thing was a staged joke, but it feels real
Basically, the EU acted like a bunch of hard-arsed fuckers for three and a half years, making the UK continuously bend over and take it, panties haplessly dangled around our trembling little Brexit-negotiating ankles, and all the Remoaner voters CHEERED ON THE EU
The EU even boasted about it. "We will make Brexit so painful the British will wish they never voted for it". Michel Barnier, Le Figaro, 2016
Now, when the UK is repeating the process to Ireland and the EU, but with rather less obvious gloating, and rather more justification, the Remoaners ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE UK
And Remoaners wonder why they are widely disliked
EU shafted the UK, the UK now trying to shaft the EU, with a Boris negotiating masterclass in the middle.
Yes, essentially
The EU gave us a lesson in realpolitik from 2016-2019. It was painful, at times humiliating. Remember Boris being shouted down in Luxembourg?! Expressly designed to mortify him. Some counter-jumper of a Luxembourg politician actually decided to mock the British prime minister, publicly
But now we have entirely escaped the EU (partly because they were such twats, they lost all leverage). They really can't do much more to us without damaging their own economies equally. And this change has happened even as the West splits into two defence camps, to the consternation of the Scandinavians and East Europeans, who don't want to be left with the French
So we have more power than before. And we can occasionally humiliate some of them, and do some of our own realpolitik. As Boris did, with AUKUS
The lack of any real leverage is what's driving such a hard line UK position. The government knows that in terms of economic impact the EU has already fired its biggest shots (city equivalence, agriculture/food equivalence, single sky etc...) so now it has nothing left to hit back with.
If they were smart they'd start talking about mutual recognition on agriculture/food with very wide alignment bands as well as on finance. That puts the UK back into the EU's regulatory orbit to more of an extent than today and it sidesteps a lot of the issues with the GB/NI border specific to food imports to NI.
Unfortunately they're going down the other path of talking up a trade war but both sides know that this is extremely unlikely and that the EU has got nothing left to fight it.
I think the broader point (and they're yet to realise this) is that the EU is becoming increasingly insular and geopolitically irrelevant. It doesn't contribute to NATO. It isn't giving much leadership on climate change. It acquieses about Russia and is ambivalent about China. It is becoming a secondary bit-player.
It can control access to its market and regulate it accordingly, but that's about it.
What constitutes a scene depends on the the person in question, in particular their general level of anxiety and embarrassment. I know I shouldn't consider a valid complaint a scene, but I would. And it's people who unjustifiably cause a scene don't think they are causing one.
I think that's right, and not only do I not complain, I roll my eyes when friends complain. "Get a life!"
The stuff about getting rolled over only matters if you care. Sure, if someone tries to burn down my home, I'll react vigorously. But if a meal isn't quite what I wanted? A bus is 10 minutes late? There was only one towel in the bathroom? If you grumble about everything, you don't improve service, you just make yourself grumpy.
If you're paying £300 for a hotel room, and the shower doesn't produce hot water very fast, they REALLY need to know, because they are competing against similar hotels which will do this seamlessly. They are avoiding a really bad Tripadvisor review (which can be genuinely damaging)
They would prefer to have your personal feedback. So, complain
Of course if you are just at a Godalming Nando's: shrug
I think notifying them something isn't working is perfectly correct - I don't really consider that complaining, as you say, you are doing them a favour. I do feel sorry for them though, when I point things like that out.
This went viral a couple of days ago (tho I believe the original video is from 2019 or something)
This is obviously the kind of complaining we can do without. The amazing thing is the guy that filmed it, clearly thinking it made him look like a martyr? Unless the whole thing was a staged joke, but it feels real
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
My wife once found broken glass in a chocolate mousse at a restaurant. We pointed it out, they apologised, brought a replacement and didn't charge for either.
I think it was a terrible mistake for them to have made. It would have been very easy for my wife to have swallowed the glass and caused herself a serious injury. But, once the mistake had been discovered there wasn't much use making too much of a fuss about it. The worst thing about it in the end was the hassle of having to point it out, and the nagging doubt that we'd never feel comfortable returning, even though the food was otherwise very good.
You do get the impression that some people are delighted when they have something to complain about, and want to establish some moral superiority out of the situation.
I think it's also interesting that after a year of no movement, the EU moves very soon after the UK unveils its first new major partnership post-Brexit with the US and Australia.
It's almost as if they've suddenly realised that the UK has got other options and all they're doing is marginalising their own agenda by acting like dicks all the time.
I really do believe that the EU thought they were the only game in town and that any non-European country wishing to do business in Europe would first treat with the EU and pay the toll. I really don't think they expected that the UK would conduct a completely independent and somewhat hostile foreign policy so soon after Brexit while some of it isn't settled and with the US who were definitely going to be best friends with the EU because of Biden.
What constitutes a scene depends on the the person in question, in particular their general level of anxiety and embarrassment. I know I shouldn't consider a valid complaint a scene, but I would. And it's people who unjustifiably cause a scene don't think they are causing one.
I think that's right, and not only do I not complain, I roll my eyes when friends complain. "Get a life!"
The stuff about getting rolled over only matters if you care. Sure, if someone tries to burn down my home, I'll react vigorously. But if a meal isn't quite what I wanted? A bus is 10 minutes late? There was only one towel in the bathroom? If you grumble about everything, you don't improve service, you just make yourself grumpy.
If you're paying £300 for a hotel room, and the shower doesn't produce hot water very fast, they REALLY need to know, because they are competing against similar hotels which will do this seamlessly. They are avoiding a really bad Tripadvisor review (which can be genuinely damaging)
They would prefer to have your personal feedback. So, complain
Of course if you are just at a Godalming Nando's: shrug
I think notifying them something isn't working is perfectly correct - I don't really consider that complaining, as you say, you are doing them a favour. I do feel sorry for them though, when I point things like that out.
This went viral a couple of days ago (tho I believe the original video is from 2019 or something)
This is obviously the kind of complaining we can do without. The amazing thing is the guy that filmed it, clearly thinking it made him look like a martyr? Unless the whole thing was a staged joke, but it feels real
I seem to recall seeing one of those where someone filmed themselves berating a worker, and used the expression 'sand n-word', which I had never heard before but needs little explanation. And as they filmed it presumably they also uploaded it despite that!
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
There's another option. Not complaining at the time, and not writing an online review either.
If Frost is going to impose a trade war on us and trash Northern Ireland in the process, he needs a better justification than that pile of unsupported assertions and non sequiturs, I feel.
He doesn’t *need* it all.
He just needs the ear of the PM and a compliant parliamentary party
Maybe you're right. David Frost's speech is quite definitively nonsense. Perhaps Frost, or more precisely Johnson, doesn't actually need to make sense about anything at all. Northern Ireland Protocol is just one of piece, along with the transitional High Wage shortages etc etc.
The joke's on all of us in thinking there must be some plan or objective.
I find the EU-UK squaring off tiresome, because I can never really tell when it is genuinely something which is difficult to resolve, or whether it is just that the parties find games of brinkmanship useful or thrilling.
What constitutes a scene depends on the the person in question, in particular their general level of anxiety and embarrassment. I know I shouldn't consider a valid complaint a scene, but I would. And it's people who unjustifiably cause a scene don't think they are causing one.
I think that's right, and not only do I not complain, I roll my eyes when friends complain. "Get a life!"
The stuff about getting rolled over only matters if you care. Sure, if someone tries to burn down my home, I'll react vigorously. But if a meal isn't quite what I wanted? A bus is 10 minutes late? There was only one towel in the bathroom? If you grumble about everything, you don't improve service, you just make yourself grumpy.
It depends what it is. Our bus was 11 minutes late in Saturday. I can track the bus from the company website so knew one was coming. It was no big deal. One towel in the bathroom, I’d politely request one when I passed reception. With food I tend to complain only if something is cold when it shouldn’t be. If I ordered it but didn’t like it that’s my issue. If a meal isn’t great we just won’t go back rather than make a fuss as we ha e done with a couple of eateries by us,
I think it's also interesting that after a year of no movement, the EU moves very soon after the UK unveils its first new major partnership post-Brexit with the US and Australia.
It's almost as if they've suddenly realised that the UK has got other options and all they're doing is marginalising their own agenda by acting like dicks all the time.
I really do believe that the EU thought they were the only game in town and that any non-European country wishing to do business in Europe would first treat with the EU and pay the toll. I really don't think they expected that the UK would conduct a completely independent and somewhat hostile foreign policy so soon after Brexit while some of it isn't settled and with the US who were definitely going to be best friends with the EU because of Biden.
I think the outrage from France in response to AUKUS really betrayed that.
They were so convinced in their own worldview that they just knew that Biden was on their side. Look at the imagery of Biden hugging Macron while at G7 etc - with Macron giving Boris a public 'dressing down'. And Biden supposedly was giving Britain a demarche at the same time.
When in reality Biden and Boris (and Morrison) were in the next room plotting the future together. Macron and all the other EU leaders weren't even in the room.
Their fragile reality was destroyed in that moment.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
My wife once found broken glass in a chocolate mousse at a restaurant. We pointed it out, they apologised, brought a replacement and didn't charge for either.
I think it was a terrible mistake for them to have made. It would have been very easy for my wife to have swallowed the glass and caused herself a serious injury. But, once the mistake had been discovered there wasn't much use making too much of a fuss about it. The worst thing about it in the end was the hassle of having to point it out, and the nagging doubt that we'd never feel comfortable returning, even though the food was otherwise very good.
You do get the impression that some people are delighted when they have something to complain about, and want to establish some moral superiority out of the situation.
I remember once when we were at a lovely restaurant in Northumberland and a table by us were exactly,like,that. The man called the waiter over and made a comment that he dropped his lamb on the floor and it bounced back up. Made a few snide asides to,the airing staff too. Their boorish behaviour was unlleaaant to listen to. They were basically trying to get the meal,at a discount. The restaurant refused and quite right too. There was nothing wrong with the lamb and he didn’t need to be a dick.
You do get the impression that some people are delighted when they have something to complain about, and want to establish some moral superiority out of the situation.
They should establish moral superiority the correct way, as I do - pontificating/whinging about national politics online.
What constitutes a scene depends on the the person in question, in particular their general level of anxiety and embarrassment. I know I shouldn't consider a valid complaint a scene, but I would. And it's people who unjustifiably cause a scene don't think they are causing one.
I think that's right, and not only do I not complain, I roll my eyes when friends complain. "Get a life!"
The stuff about getting rolled over only matters if you care. Sure, if someone tries to burn down my home, I'll react vigorously. But if a meal isn't quite what I wanted? A bus is 10 minutes late? There was only one towel in the bathroom? If you grumble about everything, you don't improve service, you just make yourself grumpy.
It depends what it is. Our bus was 11 minutes late in Saturday. I can track the bus from the company website so knew one was coming. It was no big deal. One towel in the bathroom, I’d politely request one when I passed reception. With food I tend to complain only if something is cold when it shouldn’t be. If I ordered it but didn’t like it that’s my issue. If a meal isn’t great we just won’t go back rather than make a fuss as we ha e done with a couple of eateries by us,
Yes, it's very individual and situational what bothers us. But it's interesting about buses. A group manager told me that once they'd installed the electronic boards showing how long the next one would be, they could throw away the timetable - people didn't believe a bus would come at 02, 22 and 42, and positively preferred to just stroll down and check the board, then decide whether to wait or not.
I think it's also interesting that after a year of no movement, the EU moves very soon after the UK unveils its first new major partnership post-Brexit with the US and Australia.
It's almost as if they've suddenly realised that the UK has got other options and all they're doing is marginalising their own agenda by acting like dicks all the time.
I really do believe that the EU thought they were the only game in town and that any non-European country wishing to do business in Europe would first treat with the EU and pay the toll. I really don't think they expected that the UK would conduct a completely independent and somewhat hostile foreign policy so soon after Brexit while some of it isn't settled and with the US who were definitely going to be best friends with the EU because of Biden.
I think the outrage from France in response to AUKUS really betrayed that.
They were so convinced in their own worldview that they just knew that Biden was on their side. Look at the imagery of Biden hugging Macron while at G7 etc - with Macron giving Boris a public 'dressing down'. And Biden supposedly was giving Britain a demarche at the same time.
When in reality Biden and Boris (and Morrison) were in the next room plotting the future together. Macron and all the other EU leaders weren't even in the room.
Their fragile reality was destroyed in that moment.
Also the bizarrely needy comments from the French Finance Minister today
"Always useful to know how France thinks . . . French Finance Minister Le Maire declared that the US needs to recognize "Europe as one of the three superpowers in the world for the 21st century,” alongside the US & China (w/ no mention of Russia)"
How does the US "recognise Europe as a superpower"? Is there a triplicate Superpower Application form that Joe Biden can fill in on France's behalf? Is there a special superpower club where France needs America as a member to propose the EU is included, without Russia adding a blackball?
Absurd and embarrassing. You are a superpower if you exhibit that kind of power: ie you can clearly exert global power all around the world, at will. China can, the USA can, and they can both do it economically (where China is more powerful), and militarily (where America is more powerful)
The EU has zero power militarily and its global economic power is questionable and waning, after Brexit. It is more like the European HQ of the WTO, and the WTO is certainly not "a superpower"
It is still quite possible for the EU to truly unite, and then it would be puissant. But no signs of that happening, yet
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
My wife once found broken glass in a chocolate mousse at a restaurant. We pointed it out, they apologised, brought a replacement and didn't charge for either.
I think it was a terrible mistake for them to have made. It would have been very easy for my wife to have swallowed the glass and caused herself a serious injury. But, once the mistake had been discovered there wasn't much use making too much of a fuss about it. The worst thing about it in the end was the hassle of having to point it out, and the nagging doubt that we'd never feel comfortable returning, even though the food was otherwise very good.
You do get the impression that some people are delighted when they have something to complain about, and want to establish some moral superiority out of the situation.
I remember once when we were at a lovely restaurant in Northumberland and a table by us were exactly,like,that. The man called the waiter over and made a comment that he dropped his lamb on the floor and it bounced back up. Made a few snide asides to,the airing staff too. Their boorish behaviour was unlleaaant to listen to. They were basically trying to get the meal,at a discount. The restaurant refused and quite right too. There was nothing wrong with the lamb and he didn’t need to be a dick.
"he dropped his lamb on the floor and it bounced back up."
I think it's also interesting that after a year of no movement, the EU moves very soon after the UK unveils its first new major partnership post-Brexit with the US and Australia.
It's almost as if they've suddenly realised that the UK has got other options and all they're doing is marginalising their own agenda by acting like dicks all the time.
I really do believe that the EU thought they were the only game in town and that any non-European country wishing to do business in Europe would first treat with the EU and pay the toll. I really don't think they expected that the UK would conduct a completely independent and somewhat hostile foreign policy so soon after Brexit while some of it isn't settled and with the US who were definitely going to be best friends with the EU because of Biden.
Do you ever tire of your non stop chauvinism. The EU could do us untold damage if they chose to as we do roughly 200 times more trade with them than with your antipodean friends. This competitive nonsense is childish and tedious especially for those of us who consider ourselves European and indeed make a considerable income from working there. You're not that parochial so leave it to those who are
What constitutes a scene depends on the the person in question, in particular their general level of anxiety and embarrassment. I know I shouldn't consider a valid complaint a scene, but I would. And it's people who unjustifiably cause a scene don't think they are causing one.
I think that's right, and not only do I not complain, I roll my eyes when friends complain. "Get a life!"
The stuff about getting rolled over only matters if you care. Sure, if someone tries to burn down my home, I'll react vigorously. But if a meal isn't quite what I wanted? A bus is 10 minutes late? There was only one towel in the bathroom? If you grumble about everything, you don't improve service, you just make yourself grumpy.
If you're paying £300 for a hotel room, and the shower doesn't produce hot water very fast, they REALLY need to know, because they are competing against similar hotels which will do this seamlessly. They are avoiding a really bad Tripadvisor review (which can be genuinely damaging)
They would prefer to have your personal feedback. So, complain
Of course if you are just at a Godalming Nando's: shrug
Yes, I'll mention it, not exactly as a complaint but a point of information. The other day I stayed in a hotel where some electric points weren't working - I mentioned it on leaving, the receptionist said oh thanks, that was it.
It's interesting, though, that the whole thread has been about complaints. How proactive are we about praise? Your waiter is really helpful, do you tell reception? The food is delicious, do you ask to speak to the chef? I do that a bit more than complaining, but probably not enough.
I would argue that the social benefits of Covid, such as the WFH revolution and people having an opportunity to reprioritise in their lives, more than outweighs the social harms.
Yet there are those for whom the periods of enforced isolation have been purgatory whether because they are alone or with someone with whom they no longer want to live or for a myriad other reasons.
Many have, as you say, coped not only well but prospered. Getting off the commuting treadmill has been a positive personal benefit but I'd never want to generalise it.
It's clear some on here have found it hard going at times and if this forum has provided some much needed contact I'm delighted we've all managed to help each other through this.
Lockdown was horrific. Depressing. Unbearable. I’m still astounded whenever I hear anyone suggest that they enjoyed it. A closed world is grim.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
My wife once found broken glass in a chocolate mousse at a restaurant. We pointed it out, they apologised, brought a replacement and didn't charge for either.
I think it was a terrible mistake for them to have made. It would have been very easy for my wife to have swallowed the glass and caused herself a serious injury. But, once the mistake had been discovered there wasn't much use making too much of a fuss about it. The worst thing about it in the end was the hassle of having to point it out, and the nagging doubt that we'd never feel comfortable returning, even though the food was otherwise very good.
You do get the impression that some people are delighted when they have something to complain about, and want to establish some moral superiority out of the situation.
I remember once when we were at a lovely restaurant in Northumberland and a table by us were exactly,like,that. The man called the waiter over and made a comment that he dropped his lamb on the floor and it bounced back up. Made a few snide asides to,the airing staff too. Their boorish behaviour was unlleaaant to listen to. They were basically trying to get the meal,at a discount. The restaurant refused and quite right too. There was nothing wrong with the lamb and he didn’t need to be a dick.
Some people make a career of doing that to get discounts. I was speaking to a chef once who had a customer who launched a brutal tirade about the quality of the food when there was nothing wrong with it. My chef friend concluded the anecdote, in his slow Brummie accent, with '... so I hit him.'
I would argue that the social benefits of Covid, such as the WFH revolution and people having an opportunity to reprioritise in their lives, more than outweighs the social harms.
Yet there are those for whom the periods of enforced isolation have been purgatory whether because they are alone or with someone with whom they no longer want to live or for a myriad other reasons.
Many have, as you say, coped not only well but prospered. Getting off the commuting treadmill has been a positive personal benefit but I'd never want to generalise it.
It's clear some on here have found it hard going at times and if this forum has provided some much needed contact I'm delighted we've all managed to help each other through this.
Lockdown was horrific. Depressing. Unbearable. I’m still astounded whenever I hear anyone suggest that they enjoyed it. A closed world is grim.
Horses for courses. Wife and I are not that sociable, plus wfh worked pretty well, so not too bad. But for extroverts it must have been hell.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
My wife once found broken glass in a chocolate mousse at a restaurant. We pointed it out, they apologised, brought a replacement and didn't charge for either.
I think it was a terrible mistake for them to have made. It would have been very easy for my wife to have swallowed the glass and caused herself a serious injury. But, once the mistake had been discovered there wasn't much use making too much of a fuss about it. The worst thing about it in the end was the hassle of having to point it out, and the nagging doubt that we'd never feel comfortable returning, even though the food was otherwise very good.
You do get the impression that some people are delighted when they have something to complain about, and want to establish some moral superiority out of the situation.
I remember once when we were at a lovely restaurant in Northumberland and a table by us were exactly,like,that. The man called the waiter over and made a comment that he dropped his lamb on the floor and it bounced back up. Made a few snide asides to,the airing staff too. Their boorish behaviour was unlleaaant to listen to. They were basically trying to get the meal,at a discount. The restaurant refused and quite right too. There was nothing wrong with the lamb and he didn’t need to be a dick.
"he dropped his lamb on the floor and it bounced back up."
Spring lamb?
I always liked the old Rodney Dangerfield joke "You could tell this place was rough - on the menu they had broken leg of lamb".
Owen demands Mandelson comes back to manage comms...
Owen Jones 🌹 @OwenJones84 · 4h Amusing as it is that the Labour leader crashed after refusing to listen to advice to turn left, why on earth did his advisors sign this stunt off?
They’re the self styled grown ups of politics, how could they not see the REALLY BAD IDEA sign in flashing neon lights?
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
My wife once found broken glass in a chocolate mousse at a restaurant. We pointed it out, they apologised, brought a replacement and didn't charge for either.
I think it was a terrible mistake for them to have made. It would have been very easy for my wife to have swallowed the glass and caused herself a serious injury. But, once the mistake had been discovered there wasn't much use making too much of a fuss about it. The worst thing about it in the end was the hassle of having to point it out, and the nagging doubt that we'd never feel comfortable returning, even though the food was otherwise very good.
You do get the impression that some people are delighted when they have something to complain about, and want to establish some moral superiority out of the situation.
I remember once when we were at a lovely restaurant in Northumberland and a table by us were exactly,like,that. The man called the waiter over and made a comment that he dropped his lamb on the floor and it bounced back up. Made a few snide asides to,the airing staff too. Their boorish behaviour was unlleaaant to listen to. They were basically trying to get the meal,at a discount. The restaurant refused and quite right too. There was nothing wrong with the lamb and he didn’t need to be a dick.
Some people make a career of doing that to get discounts. I was speaking to a chef once who had a customer who launched a brutal tirade about the quality of the food when there was nothing wrong with it. My chef friend concluded the anecdote, in his slow Brummie accent, with '... so I hit him.'
There is of course the genuine fear of complaining about food, that it may come back from the kitchen with ‘extras’. I think if you are polite, and the complaint is fair, then this won’t happen, but you never really know... As the chef in Fawlty Towers said, ‘what the eye don’t see, the chef gets away with...’
What constitutes a scene depends on the the person in question, in particular their general level of anxiety and embarrassment. I know I shouldn't consider a valid complaint a scene, but I would. And it's people who unjustifiably cause a scene don't think they are causing one.
I think that's right, and not only do I not complain, I roll my eyes when friends complain. "Get a life!"
The stuff about getting rolled over only matters if you care. Sure, if someone tries to burn down my home, I'll react vigorously. But if a meal isn't quite what I wanted? A bus is 10 minutes late? There was only one towel in the bathroom? If you grumble about everything, you don't improve service, you just make yourself grumpy.
If you're paying £300 for a hotel room, and the shower doesn't produce hot water very fast, they REALLY need to know, because they are competing against similar hotels which will do this seamlessly. They are avoiding a really bad Tripadvisor review (which can be genuinely damaging)
They would prefer to have your personal feedback. So, complain
Of course if you are just at a Godalming Nando's: shrug
Yes, I'll mention it, not exactly as a complaint but a point of information. The other day I stayed in a hotel where some electric points weren't working - I mentioned it on leaving, the receptionist said oh thanks, that was it.
It's interesting, though, that the whole thread has been about complaints. How proactive are we about praise? Your waiter is really helpful, do you tell reception? The food is delicious, do you ask to speak to the chef? I do that a bit more than complaining, but probably not enough.
Absolutely
I ALWAYS praise if I have enjoyed a meal, service, hotel. I make a definite point of it, it's a posh resto I say "please tell the chef such-and-such dish was LOVELY, I loved the fennel/spicing/whatever", if it's more of a gastropub I tell the staff "that was REALLY nice, thankyou, especially the xxxxxxx"
I will also specifically thank the staff at a check out if a hotel has been good. Why not?
If you are willing to complain you must also be happy to praise, and to do it sincerely and in detail, so they know it is heart-felt. Plus, you get happy smiley staff, and everyone has a tiny dopamine hit, so what's not to love?
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
My wife once found broken glass in a chocolate mousse at a restaurant. We pointed it out, they apologised, brought a replacement and didn't charge for either.
I think it was a terrible mistake for them to have made. It would have been very easy for my wife to have swallowed the glass and caused herself a serious injury. But, once the mistake had been discovered there wasn't much use making too much of a fuss about it. The worst thing about it in the end was the hassle of having to point it out, and the nagging doubt that we'd never feel comfortable returning, even though the food was otherwise very good.
You do get the impression that some people are delighted when they have something to complain about, and want to establish some moral superiority out of the situation.
I remember once when we were at a lovely restaurant in Northumberland and a table by us were exactly,like,that. The man called the waiter over and made a comment that he dropped his lamb on the floor and it bounced back up. Made a few snide asides to,the airing staff too. Their boorish behaviour was unlleaaant to listen to. They were basically trying to get the meal,at a discount. The restaurant refused and quite right too. There was nothing wrong with the lamb and he didn’t need to be a dick.
"he dropped his lamb on the floor and it bounced back up."
Spring lamb?
I always liked the old Rodney Dangerfield joke "You could tell this place was rough - on the menu they had broken leg of lamb".
Just read Frost's speech (well the intro and the NI Protocol bit) and it seems entirely reasonable and fair. Deliberately reasonable and fair, considering he's going into negotiations I suspect. Can't see anything provocative there at all, I don't see why people are complaining.
One element that struck me was this (emphasis mine): Whether or not you agree with either analysis - the facts on the ground are what matter above all. Maybe there is a world in which the Protocol could have worked, more sensitively implemented. But the situation has now moved on. We now face a very serious situation. The Protocol is not working. It has completely lost consent in one community in Northern Ireland. It is not doing the thing it was set up to do – protect the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement. In fact it is doing the opposite. It has to change.
This matches without spelling it out exactly what a lot of us have said, that if the Trusted Trader scheme had been appropriately implemented then the Protocol as written could have worked. It wasn't, so we are where we are.
At last, an explicit admission that the Johnson government negotiated the WA in bad faith, never had any intention of keeping its word, and lied to the British public in the 2019 election. Quite a moment. https://twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1448018739623038982
I would argue that the social benefits of Covid, such as the WFH revolution and people having an opportunity to reprioritise in their lives, more than outweighs the social harms.
Yet there are those for whom the periods of enforced isolation have been purgatory whether because they are alone or with someone with whom they no longer want to live or for a myriad other reasons.
Many have, as you say, coped not only well but prospered. Getting off the commuting treadmill has been a positive personal benefit but I'd never want to generalise it.
It's clear some on here have found it hard going at times and if this forum has provided some much needed contact I'm delighted we've all managed to help each other through this.
Lockdown was horrific. Depressing. Unbearable. I’m still astounded whenever I hear anyone suggest that they enjoyed it. A closed world is grim.
I'm with you. Lockdown 3 took me close to a total breakdown, and it has left permanent mental scars on me. I can never do it again. I would rather take my chances with a plague + vaccine
I have plenty of friends who weathered most of it just fine (generally richer, older people in big houses, often outside London) tho by the end, even the most relaxed were beginning to fray, in quirky ways
I have other friends who were exactly like us. They hated most of it, and they suffered accordingly. I know of at least 2 divorces
Just read Frost's speech (well the intro and the NI Protocol bit) and it seems entirely reasonable and fair. Deliberately reasonable and fair, considering he's going into negotiations I suspect. Can't see anything provocative there at all, I don't see why people are complaining.
One element that struck me was this (emphasis mine): Whether or not you agree with either analysis - the facts on the ground are what matter above all. Maybe there is a world in which the Protocol could have worked, more sensitively implemented. But the situation has now moved on. We now face a very serious situation. The Protocol is not working. It has completely lost consent in one community in Northern Ireland. It is not doing the thing it was set up to do – protect the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement. In fact it is doing the opposite. It has to change.
This matches without spelling it out exactly what a lot of us have said, that if the Trusted Trader scheme had been appropriately implemented then the Protocol as written could have worked. It wasn't, so we are where we are.
No bad faith.
Do you have any evidence that the protocol ever had the consent of the Unionists? I didn't think that you could lose what you never had.
The problem with the protocol as far as Unionists are concerned is that it has significantly integrated the Island. Cross border trade is up, cross Irish Sea trade down.
I think it's also interesting that after a year of no movement, the EU moves very soon after the UK unveils its first new major partnership post-Brexit with the US and Australia.
It's almost as if they've suddenly realised that the UK has got other options and all they're doing is marginalising their own agenda by acting like dicks all the time.
I really do believe that the EU thought they were the only game in town and that any non-European country wishing to do business in Europe would first treat with the EU and pay the toll. I really don't think they expected that the UK would conduct a completely independent and somewhat hostile foreign policy so soon after Brexit while some of it isn't settled and with the US who were definitely going to be best friends with the EU because of Biden.
I think the outrage from France in response to AUKUS really betrayed that.
They were so convinced in their own worldview that they just knew that Biden was on their side. Look at the imagery of Biden hugging Macron while at G7 etc - with Macron giving Boris a public 'dressing down'. And Biden supposedly was giving Britain a demarche at the same time.
When in reality Biden and Boris (and Morrison) were in the next room plotting the future together. Macron and all the other EU leaders weren't even in the room.
Their fragile reality was destroyed in that moment.
Also the bizarrely needy comments from the French Finance Minister today
"Always useful to know how France thinks . . . French Finance Minister Le Maire declared that the US needs to recognize "Europe as one of the three superpowers in the world for the 21st century,” alongside the US & China (w/ no mention of Russia)"
How does the US "recognise Europe as a superpower"? Is there a triplicate Superpower Application form that Joe Biden can fill in on France's behalf? Is there a special superpower club where France needs America as a member to propose the EU is included, without Russia adding a blackball?
Absurd and embarrassing. You are a superpower if you exhibit that kind of power: ie you can clearly exert global power all around the world, at will. China can, the USA can, and they can both do it economically (where China is more powerful), and militarily (where America is more powerful)
The EU has zero power militarily and its global economic power is questionable and waning, after Brexit. It is more like the European HQ of the WTO, and the WTO is certainly not "a superpower"
It is still quite possible for the EU to truly unite, and then it would be puissant. But no signs of that happening, yet
It's really down to the Germans. Will they start becoming more assertive, post-Brexit? Do they have a world-view? Want to do anything other than export cars?
Just read Frost's speech (well the intro and the NI Protocol bit) and it seems entirely reasonable and fair. Deliberately reasonable and fair, considering he's going into negotiations I suspect. Can't see anything provocative there at all, I don't see why people are complaining.
One element that struck me was this (emphasis mine): Whether or not you agree with either analysis - the facts on the ground are what matter above all. Maybe there is a world in which the Protocol could have worked, more sensitively implemented. But the situation has now moved on. We now face a very serious situation. The Protocol is not working. It has completely lost consent in one community in Northern Ireland. It is not doing the thing it was set up to do – protect the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement. In fact it is doing the opposite. It has to change.
This matches without spelling it out exactly what a lot of us have said, that if the Trusted Trader scheme had been appropriately implemented then the Protocol as written could have worked. It wasn't, so we are where we are.
No bad faith.
Do you have any evidence that the protocol ever had the consent of the Unionists? I didn't think that you could lose what you never had.
The problem with the protocol as far as Unionists are concerned is that it has significantly integrated the Island. Cross border trade is up, cross Irish Sea trade down.
No of course it never had the consent of the Unionists, and quite right too, they had concerns over what would happen next.
But if the deal had been sensitively implemented with a Trusted Trader scheme etc then would it have raised cross border trade, and lowered cross Sea trade? If a Trusted Trader scheme had been sensitively implemented avoiding all the Unionists concerns then potentially the Protocol could have won their support.
At last, an explicit admission that the Johnson government negotiated the WA in bad faith, never had any intention of keeping its word, and lied to the British public in the 2019 election. Quite a moment. https://twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1448018739623038982
You are reading what Big Dom actually says, right?
"For all the cant about international law, a/ states break it every week, b/ the idea it's the epitome of morality is low grade student politics pushed by lawyers/officials to constrain politics they oppose. Govt shd focus on solving problems & chill viz "i/n law" viz NI #IMBill2"
"Shd we generally stick to deals? Of course. Sometimes break them? Of course. Just like the EU, US, China and every other state does. International diplomacy cannot be judged by the standards of a student duel, and lawyers are hired help not the masters"
I think it's also interesting that after a year of no movement, the EU moves very soon after the UK unveils its first new major partnership post-Brexit with the US and Australia.
It's almost as if they've suddenly realised that the UK has got other options and all they're doing is marginalising their own agenda by acting like dicks all the time.
I really do believe that the EU thought they were the only game in town and that any non-European country wishing to do business in Europe would first treat with the EU and pay the toll. I really don't think they expected that the UK would conduct a completely independent and somewhat hostile foreign policy so soon after Brexit while some of it isn't settled and with the US who were definitely going to be best friends with the EU because of Biden.
I think the outrage from France in response to AUKUS really betrayed that.
They were so convinced in their own worldview that they just knew that Biden was on their side. Look at the imagery of Biden hugging Macron while at G7 etc - with Macron giving Boris a public 'dressing down'. And Biden supposedly was giving Britain a demarche at the same time.
When in reality Biden and Boris (and Morrison) were in the next room plotting the future together. Macron and all the other EU leaders weren't even in the room.
Their fragile reality was destroyed in that moment.
Also the bizarrely needy comments from the French Finance Minister today
"Always useful to know how France thinks . . . French Finance Minister Le Maire declared that the US needs to recognize "Europe as one of the three superpowers in the world for the 21st century,” alongside the US & China (w/ no mention of Russia)"
How does the US "recognise Europe as a superpower"? Is there a triplicate Superpower Application form that Joe Biden can fill in on France's behalf? Is there a special superpower club where France needs America as a member to propose the EU is included, without Russia adding a blackball?
Absurd and embarrassing. You are a superpower if you exhibit that kind of power: ie you can clearly exert global power all around the world, at will. China can, the USA can, and they can both do it economically (where China is more powerful), and militarily (where America is more powerful)
The EU has zero power militarily and its global economic power is questionable and waning, after Brexit. It is more like the European HQ of the WTO, and the WTO is certainly not "a superpower"
It is still quite possible for the EU to truly unite, and then it would be puissant. But no signs of that happening, yet
It's really down to the Germans. Will they start becoming more assertive, post-Brexit? Do they have a world-view? Want to do anything other than export cars?
Aha, meant post-Merkel, of course. Brexit gets everywhere...
I think it's also interesting that after a year of no movement, the EU moves very soon after the UK unveils its first new major partnership post-Brexit with the US and Australia.
It's almost as if they've suddenly realised that the UK has got other options and all they're doing is marginalising their own agenda by acting like dicks all the time.
I really do believe that the EU thought they were the only game in town and that any non-European country wishing to do business in Europe would first treat with the EU and pay the toll. I really don't think they expected that the UK would conduct a completely independent and somewhat hostile foreign policy so soon after Brexit while some of it isn't settled and with the US who were definitely going to be best friends with the EU because of Biden.
I think the outrage from France in response to AUKUS really betrayed that.
They were so convinced in their own worldview that they just knew that Biden was on their side. Look at the imagery of Biden hugging Macron while at G7 etc - with Macron giving Boris a public 'dressing down'. And Biden supposedly was giving Britain a demarche at the same time.
When in reality Biden and Boris (and Morrison) were in the next room plotting the future together. Macron and all the other EU leaders weren't even in the room.
Their fragile reality was destroyed in that moment.
Also the bizarrely needy comments from the French Finance Minister today
"Always useful to know how France thinks . . . French Finance Minister Le Maire declared that the US needs to recognize "Europe as one of the three superpowers in the world for the 21st century,” alongside the US & China (w/ no mention of Russia)"
How does the US "recognise Europe as a superpower"? Is there a triplicate Superpower Application form that Joe Biden can fill in on France's behalf? Is there a special superpower club where France needs America as a member to propose the EU is included, without Russia adding a blackball?
Absurd and embarrassing. You are a superpower if you exhibit that kind of power: ie you can clearly exert global power all around the world, at will. China can, the USA can, and they can both do it economically (where China is more powerful), and militarily (where America is more powerful)
The EU has zero power militarily and its global economic power is questionable and waning, after Brexit. It is more like the European HQ of the WTO, and the WTO is certainly not "a superpower"
It is still quite possible for the EU to truly unite, and then it would be puissant. But no signs of that happening, yet
It's really down to the Germans. Will they start becoming more assertive, post-Brexit? Do they have a world-view? Want to do anything other than export cars?
Aha, meant post-Merkel, of course. Brexit gets everywhere...
I would argue that the social benefits of Covid, such as the WFH revolution and people having an opportunity to reprioritise in their lives, more than outweighs the social harms.
Yet there are those for whom the periods of enforced isolation have been purgatory whether because they are alone or with someone with whom they no longer want to live or for a myriad other reasons.
Many have, as you say, coped not only well but prospered. Getting off the commuting treadmill has been a positive personal benefit but I'd never want to generalise it.
It's clear some on here have found it hard going at times and if this forum has provided some much needed contact I'm delighted we've all managed to help each other through this.
Lockdown was horrific. Depressing. Unbearable. I’m still astounded whenever I hear anyone suggest that they enjoyed it. A closed world is grim.
I'm with you. Lockdown 3 took me close to a total breakdown, and it has left permanent mental scars on me. I can never do it again. I would rather take my chances with a plague + vaccine
I have plenty of friends who weathered most of it just fine (generally richer, older people in big houses, often outside London) tho by the end, even the most relaxed were beginning to fray, in quirky ways
I have other friends who were exactly like us. They hated most of it, and they suffered accordingly. I know of at least 2 divorces
Lockdowns were pretty bad. At least I could still go to work (in manufacturing, so continued to go in throughout the entire horror,) and I have a husband to come home to afterwards. I shudder to think what it was like for single people working from home in officey jobs - for most of them the prolonged isolation must've been dreadful.
What constitutes a scene depends on the the person in question, in particular their general level of anxiety and embarrassment. I know I shouldn't consider a valid complaint a scene, but I would. And it's people who unjustifiably cause a scene don't think they are causing one.
I think that's right, and not only do I not complain, I roll my eyes when friends complain. "Get a life!"
The stuff about getting rolled over only matters if you care. Sure, if someone tries to burn down my home, I'll react vigorously. But if a meal isn't quite what I wanted? A bus is 10 minutes late? There was only one towel in the bathroom? If you grumble about everything, you don't improve service, you just make yourself grumpy.
If you're paying £300 for a hotel room, and the shower doesn't produce hot water very fast, they REALLY need to know, because they are competing against similar hotels which will do this seamlessly. They are avoiding a really bad Tripadvisor review (which can be genuinely damaging)
They would prefer to have your personal feedback. So, complain
Of course if you are just at a Godalming Nando's: shrug
Yes, I'll mention it, not exactly as a complaint but a point of information. The other day I stayed in a hotel where some electric points weren't working - I mentioned it on leaving, the receptionist said oh thanks, that was it.
It's interesting, though, that the whole thread has been about complaints. How proactive are we about praise? Your waiter is really helpful, do you tell reception? The food is delicious, do you ask to speak to the chef? I do that a bit more than complaining, but probably not enough.
Just read Frost's speech (well the intro and the NI Protocol bit) and it seems entirely reasonable and fair. Deliberately reasonable and fair, considering he's going into negotiations I suspect. Can't see anything provocative there at all, I don't see why people are complaining.
One element that struck me was this (emphasis mine): Whether or not you agree with either analysis - the facts on the ground are what matter above all. Maybe there is a world in which the Protocol could have worked, more sensitively implemented. But the situation has now moved on. We now face a very serious situation. The Protocol is not working. It has completely lost consent in one community in Northern Ireland. It is not doing the thing it was set up to do – protect the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement. In fact it is doing the opposite. It has to change.
This matches without spelling it out exactly what a lot of us have said, that if the Trusted Trader scheme had been appropriately implemented then the Protocol as written could have worked. It wasn't, so we are where we are.
No bad faith.
Do you have any evidence that the protocol ever had the consent of the Unionists? I didn't think that you could lose what you never had.
The problem with the protocol as far as Unionists are concerned is that it has significantly integrated the Island. Cross border trade is up, cross Irish Sea trade down.
No of course it never had the consent of the Unionists, and quite right too, they had concerns over what would happen next.
But if the deal had been sensitively implemented with a Trusted Trader scheme etc then would it have raised cross border trade, and lowered cross Sea trade? If a Trusted Trader scheme had been sensitively implemented avoiding all the Unionists concerns then potentially the Protocol could have won their support.
It wasn't, so it didn't, so A16 is appropriate.
I take it 'Trusted Trader' is suddenly the new big thing. Forgive me if I missed it, but have you ever actually mentioned it before this evening?
At last, an explicit admission that the Johnson government negotiated the WA in bad faith, never had any intention of keeping its word, and lied to the British public in the 2019 election. Quite a moment. https://twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1448018739623038982
You are reading what Big Dom actually says, right?
"For all the cant about international law, a/ states break it every week, b/ the idea it's the epitome of morality is low grade student politics pushed by lawyers/officials to constrain politics they oppose. Govt shd focus on solving problems & chill viz "i/n law" viz NI #IMBill2"
"Shd we generally stick to deals? Of course. Sometimes break them? Of course. Just like the EU, US, China and every other state does. International diplomacy cannot be judged by the standards of a student duel, and lawyers are hired help not the masters"
He is right though. Lying about being willing to abide by the NI protocol was the only way to get the "oven ready deal" through. That is why the HoC debate on it was curtailed.
Not a great precedent for a government, but not much of a surprise for this one.
At last, an explicit admission that the Johnson government negotiated the WA in bad faith, never had any intention of keeping its word, and lied to the British public in the 2019 election. Quite a moment. https://twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1448018739623038982
You are reading what Big Dom actually says, right?
"For all the cant about international law, a/ states break it every week, b/ the idea it's the epitome of morality is low grade student politics pushed by lawyers/officials to constrain politics they oppose. Govt shd focus on solving problems & chill viz "i/n law" viz NI #IMBill2"
"Shd we generally stick to deals? Of course. Sometimes break them? Of course. Just like the EU, US, China and every other state does. International diplomacy cannot be judged by the standards of a student duel, and lawyers are hired help not the masters"
I actually kind of agree with him. Not in the sense of simply 'chilling' about it, but the way it is often referred to as immutable and universally agreed set of principles and very specific actions is frequently nonsense. Some of the worst regimes on earth would claim to totally be respecting international law in their actions regarding other nations.
In all honesty the idea you don't break treaties the instant it is convenient for you is probably pretty recent in some ways, if a cursory look at medieval history is any indication. Not that we should do so flippantly, not at all, but talk around international law is very often posturing.
Just read Frost's speech (well the intro and the NI Protocol bit) and it seems entirely reasonable and fair. Deliberately reasonable and fair, considering he's going into negotiations I suspect. Can't see anything provocative there at all, I don't see why people are complaining.
One element that struck me was this (emphasis mine): Whether or not you agree with either analysis - the facts on the ground are what matter above all. Maybe there is a world in which the Protocol could have worked, more sensitively implemented. But the situation has now moved on. We now face a very serious situation. The Protocol is not working. It has completely lost consent in one community in Northern Ireland. It is not doing the thing it was set up to do – protect the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement. In fact it is doing the opposite. It has to change.
This matches without spelling it out exactly what a lot of us have said, that if the Trusted Trader scheme had been appropriately implemented then the Protocol as written could have worked. It wasn't, so we are where we are.
No bad faith.
Do you have any evidence that the protocol ever had the consent of the Unionists? I didn't think that you could lose what you never had.
The problem with the protocol as far as Unionists are concerned is that it has significantly integrated the Island. Cross border trade is up, cross Irish Sea trade down.
No of course it never had the consent of the Unionists, and quite right too, they had concerns over what would happen next.
But if the deal had been sensitively implemented with a Trusted Trader scheme etc then would it have raised cross border trade, and lowered cross Sea trade? If a Trusted Trader scheme had been sensitively implemented avoiding all the Unionists concerns then potentially the Protocol could have won their support.
It wasn't, so it didn't, so A16 is appropriate.
I take it 'Trusted Trader' is suddenly the new big thing. Forgive me if I missed it, but have you ever actually mentioned it before this evening?
Just read Frost's speech (well the intro and the NI Protocol bit) and it seems entirely reasonable and fair. Deliberately reasonable and fair, considering he's going into negotiations I suspect. Can't see anything provocative there at all, I don't see why people are complaining.
One element that struck me was this (emphasis mine): Whether or not you agree with either analysis - the facts on the ground are what matter above all. Maybe there is a world in which the Protocol could have worked, more sensitively implemented. But the situation has now moved on. We now face a very serious situation. The Protocol is not working. It has completely lost consent in one community in Northern Ireland. It is not doing the thing it was set up to do – protect the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement. In fact it is doing the opposite. It has to change.
This matches without spelling it out exactly what a lot of us have said, that if the Trusted Trader scheme had been appropriately implemented then the Protocol as written could have worked. It wasn't, so we are where we are.
No bad faith.
Do you have any evidence that the protocol ever had the consent of the Unionists? I didn't think that you could lose what you never had.
The problem with the protocol as far as Unionists are concerned is that it has significantly integrated the Island. Cross border trade is up, cross Irish Sea trade down.
No of course it never had the consent of the Unionists, and quite right too, they had concerns over what would happen next.
But if the deal had been sensitively implemented with a Trusted Trader scheme etc then would it have raised cross border trade, and lowered cross Sea trade? If a Trusted Trader scheme had been sensitively implemented avoiding all the Unionists concerns then potentially the Protocol could have won their support.
It wasn't, so it didn't, so A16 is appropriate.
I take it 'Trusted Trader' is suddenly the new big thing. Forgive me if I missed it, but have you ever actually mentioned it before this evening?
Is there any reason to trade with some one who says "Trust me, I an a really straight sort of guy"?
We have hear the bombast, but let's see if there is real negotiation.
The basis of the NI protocol is that NI remains in the Single Market (which matches how it voted). Inevitably that means that EU law applies, and that the customs border is in the Irish Sea. No amount of "Trusted Trader" gets past that fundamental concession that Johnson and Frost made.
Just read Frost's speech (well the intro and the NI Protocol bit) and it seems entirely reasonable and fair. Deliberately reasonable and fair, considering he's going into negotiations I suspect. Can't see anything provocative there at all, I don't see why people are complaining.
One element that struck me was this (emphasis mine): Whether or not you agree with either analysis - the facts on the ground are what matter above all. Maybe there is a world in which the Protocol could have worked, more sensitively implemented. But the situation has now moved on. We now face a very serious situation. The Protocol is not working. It has completely lost consent in one community in Northern Ireland. It is not doing the thing it was set up to do – protect the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement. In fact it is doing the opposite. It has to change.
This matches without spelling it out exactly what a lot of us have said, that if the Trusted Trader scheme had been appropriately implemented then the Protocol as written could have worked. It wasn't, so we are where we are.
No bad faith.
Do you have any evidence that the protocol ever had the consent of the Unionists? I didn't think that you could lose what you never had.
The problem with the protocol as far as Unionists are concerned is that it has significantly integrated the Island. Cross border trade is up, cross Irish Sea trade down.
No of course it never had the consent of the Unionists, and quite right too, they had concerns over what would happen next.
But if the deal had been sensitively implemented with a Trusted Trader scheme etc then would it have raised cross border trade, and lowered cross Sea trade? If a Trusted Trader scheme had been sensitively implemented avoiding all the Unionists concerns then potentially the Protocol could have won their support.
It wasn't, so it didn't, so A16 is appropriate.
I take it 'Trusted Trader' is suddenly the new big thing. Forgive me if I missed it, but have you ever actually mentioned it before this evening?
Wasn't that the original plan before Varadkar got involved?
I would argue that the social benefits of Covid, such as the WFH revolution and people having an opportunity to reprioritise in their lives, more than outweighs the social harms.
Yet there are those for whom the periods of enforced isolation have been purgatory whether because they are alone or with someone with whom they no longer want to live or for a myriad other reasons.
Many have, as you say, coped not only well but prospered. Getting off the commuting treadmill has been a positive personal benefit but I'd never want to generalise it.
It's clear some on here have found it hard going at times and if this forum has provided some much needed contact I'm delighted we've all managed to help each other through this.
Lockdown was horrific. Depressing. Unbearable. I’m still astounded whenever I hear anyone suggest that they enjoyed it. A closed world is grim.
Horses for courses. Wife and I are not that sociable, plus wfh worked pretty well, so not too bad. But for extroverts it must have been hell.
I guess I’m reasonably extroverted but nothing extreme. It was the substitution that was most dire. Zoom ‘meetings’ (you aren’t meeting anyone); Zoom ‘parties’ (FFS). I mean it was a living fucking hell.
At last, an explicit admission that the Johnson government negotiated the WA in bad faith, never had any intention of keeping its word, and lied to the British public in the 2019 election. Quite a moment. https://twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1448018739623038982
You are reading what Big Dom actually says, right?
"For all the cant about international law, a/ states break it every week, b/ the idea it's the epitome of morality is low grade student politics pushed by lawyers/officials to constrain politics they oppose. Govt shd focus on solving problems & chill viz "i/n law" viz NI #IMBill2"
"Shd we generally stick to deals? Of course. Sometimes break them? Of course. Just like the EU, US, China and every other state does. International diplomacy cannot be judged by the standards of a student duel, and lawyers are hired help not the masters"
I actually kind of agree with him. Not in the sense of simply 'chilling' about it, but the way it is often referred to as immutable and universally agreed set of principles and very specific actions is frequently nonsense. Some of the worst regimes on earth would claim to totally be respecting international law in their actions regarding other nations.
In all honesty the idea you don't break treaties the instant it is convenient for you is probably pretty recent in some ways, if a cursory look at medieval history is any indication. Not that we should do so flippantly, not at all, but talk around international law is very often posturing.
Well it was the EU which unilaterally invoked Article 16, because they were enraged that Brexity Britain had vaccines which we invented and we made and which we were intending to give away without profit, vaccines which they wanted for themselves, even tho they publicly claimed these same vaccines were quasi-useless, and so they imposed a hard border across Ireland WITHOUT ASKING IRELAND
So, you know, the EU can go fuck itself with a dildo the size of the Eiffel Tower with a 30 metre wide Nigel Farage-shaped carved flint glans penis, right on the top, as is traditional
London’s famous New Year’s Eve fireworks display has been cancelled for a second year due to the pandemic."
Farcical. Restrictions were lifted in July. This is just madness.
Well, yes, if it's actually true. Though admittedly I wouldn't be surprised if it was. It isn't just the NHS that's still wetting itself over Covid. A large fraction of the population still shuffles around in cloth gags every time they enter a building. A small fraction of the population still shuffles around in them whenever they leave the house. This palaver could go on for years.
At last, an explicit admission that the Johnson government negotiated the WA in bad faith, never had any intention of keeping its word, and lied to the British public in the 2019 election. Quite a moment. https://twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1448018739623038982
You are reading what Big Dom actually says, right?
"For all the cant about international law, a/ states break it every week, b/ the idea it's the epitome of morality is low grade student politics pushed by lawyers/officials to constrain politics they oppose. Govt shd focus on solving problems & chill viz "i/n law" viz NI #IMBill2"
"Shd we generally stick to deals? Of course. Sometimes break them? Of course. Just like the EU, US, China and every other state does. International diplomacy cannot be judged by the standards of a student duel, and lawyers are hired help not the masters"
He is right though. Lying about being willing to abide by the NI protocol was the only way to get the "oven ready deal" through. That is why the HoC debate on it was curtailed.
Not a great precedent for a government, but not much of a surprise for this one.
Nor, indeed, for the EU, which lies and fibs and breaks its own rules, on a daily basis. Pretending otherwise is juvenile
I would argue that the social benefits of Covid, such as the WFH revolution and people having an opportunity to reprioritise in their lives, more than outweighs the social harms.
Yet there are those for whom the periods of enforced isolation have been purgatory whether because they are alone or with someone with whom they no longer want to live or for a myriad other reasons.
Many have, as you say, coped not only well but prospered. Getting off the commuting treadmill has been a positive personal benefit but I'd never want to generalise it.
It's clear some on here have found it hard going at times and if this forum has provided some much needed contact I'm delighted we've all managed to help each other through this.
Lockdown was horrific. Depressing. Unbearable. I’m still astounded whenever I hear anyone suggest that they enjoyed it. A closed world is grim.
I'm with you. Lockdown 3 took me close to a total breakdown, and it has left permanent mental scars on me. I can never do it again. I would rather take my chances with a plague + vaccine
I have plenty of friends who weathered most of it just fine (generally richer, older people in big houses, often outside London) tho by the end, even the most relaxed were beginning to fray, in quirky ways
I have other friends who were exactly like us. They hated most of it, and they suffered accordingly. I know of at least 2 divorces
I have a fairly large house (in London terms) with a sunny garden, in the suburbs. Yet that warm spring in 2020 was to my mind a tragic waste. What should have been a celebration of endless long warm days, with friends and music, was extended enforced gardening. Isolation with secateurs.
I would argue that the social benefits of Covid, such as the WFH revolution and people having an opportunity to reprioritise in their lives, more than outweighs the social harms.
Yet there are those for whom the periods of enforced isolation have been purgatory whether because they are alone or with someone with whom they no longer want to live or for a myriad other reasons.
Many have, as you say, coped not only well but prospered. Getting off the commuting treadmill has been a positive personal benefit but I'd never want to generalise it.
It's clear some on here have found it hard going at times and if this forum has provided some much needed contact I'm delighted we've all managed to help each other through this.
Lockdown was horrific. Depressing. Unbearable. I’m still astounded whenever I hear anyone suggest that they enjoyed it. A closed world is grim.
London’s famous New Year’s Eve fireworks display has been cancelled for a second year due to the pandemic."
That's a headline that needs some explanation. I guess assuming high case rates 2 months from now they are assuming they don't want crowds voluntarily or something?
London’s famous New Year’s Eve fireworks display has been cancelled for a second year due to the pandemic."
Insane. Sadiq Khan. FFS
He still won't get the night tube running either. The guy is so useless. Women are being put in danger and all he does is talk about it. No action at all.
I would argue that the social benefits of Covid, such as the WFH revolution and people having an opportunity to reprioritise in their lives, more than outweighs the social harms.
Yet there are those for whom the periods of enforced isolation have been purgatory whether because they are alone or with someone with whom they no longer want to live or for a myriad other reasons.
Many have, as you say, coped not only well but prospered. Getting off the commuting treadmill has been a positive personal benefit but I'd never want to generalise it.
It's clear some on here have found it hard going at times and if this forum has provided some much needed contact I'm delighted we've all managed to help each other through this.
Lockdown was horrific. Depressing. Unbearable. I’m still astounded whenever I hear anyone suggest that they enjoyed it. A closed world is grim.
Horses for courses. Wife and I are not that sociable, plus wfh worked pretty well, so not too bad. But for extroverts it must have been hell.
I guess I’m reasonably extroverted but nothing extreme. It was the substitution that was most dire. Zoom ‘meetings’ (you aren’t meeting anyone); Zoom ‘parties’ (FFS). I mean it was a living fucking hell.
Not aware of anyone still doing the parties thing in the last lockdown. That was rough.
The thing is, I'm very introverted, but it really makes a difference knowing you don't even have the option to do something, even if you probably wouldn't have in the first place.
As The Cat said about quaranteening with people you hang out with all the time anyway, it makes a big difference knowing you can walk out the door at any time.
Critically, for large mixed consignments of animal-based products only one export health certificate will be required (rather than dozens)
On customs, the principle will be that goods deemed not at risk of entering the single market will have a zero customs value in the UK system, but that will also expand to mean minimal customs requirements
I would argue that the social benefits of Covid, such as the WFH revolution and people having an opportunity to reprioritise in their lives, more than outweighs the social harms.
Yet there are those for whom the periods of enforced isolation have been purgatory whether because they are alone or with someone with whom they no longer want to live or for a myriad other reasons.
Many have, as you say, coped not only well but prospered. Getting off the commuting treadmill has been a positive personal benefit but I'd never want to generalise it.
It's clear some on here have found it hard going at times and if this forum has provided some much needed contact I'm delighted we've all managed to help each other through this.
Lockdown was horrific. Depressing. Unbearable. I’m still astounded whenever I hear anyone suggest that they enjoyed it. A closed world is grim.
I'm with you. Lockdown 3 took me close to a total breakdown, and it has left permanent mental scars on me. I can never do it again. I would rather take my chances with a plague + vaccine
I have plenty of friends who weathered most of it just fine (generally richer, older people in big houses, often outside London) tho by the end, even the most relaxed were beginning to fray, in quirky ways
I have other friends who were exactly like us. They hated most of it, and they suffered accordingly. I know of at least 2 divorces
Lockdowns were pretty bad. At least I could still go to work (in manufacturing, so continued to go in throughout the entire horror,) and I have a husband to come home to afterwards. I shudder to think what it was like for single people working from home in officey jobs - for most of them the prolonged isolation must've been dreadful.
A mate of mine falls into that category. He’s quite an introverted guy but absolutely hated lockdown WFH, it took him to the brink of depression. Extremely lonely.
Helen Ward @profhelenward · 1h "The UN under secretary-general, Vera Songwe, said Hancock’s “success” in handling the UK’s pandemic response was a testament to the strengths he would bring to the role."
Just read Frost's speech (well the intro and the NI Protocol bit) and it seems entirely reasonable and fair. Deliberately reasonable and fair, considering he's going into negotiations I suspect. Can't see anything provocative there at all, I don't see why people are complaining.
One element that struck me was this (emphasis mine): Whether or not you agree with either analysis - the facts on the ground are what matter above all. Maybe there is a world in which the Protocol could have worked, more sensitively implemented. But the situation has now moved on. We now face a very serious situation. The Protocol is not working. It has completely lost consent in one community in Northern Ireland. It is not doing the thing it was set up to do – protect the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement. In fact it is doing the opposite. It has to change.
This matches without spelling it out exactly what a lot of us have said, that if the Trusted Trader scheme had been appropriately implemented then the Protocol as written could have worked. It wasn't, so we are where we are.
No bad faith.
Do you have any evidence that the protocol ever had the consent of the Unionists? I didn't think that you could lose what you never had.
The problem with the protocol as far as Unionists are concerned is that it has significantly integrated the Island. Cross border trade is up, cross Irish Sea trade down.
No of course it never had the consent of the Unionists, and quite right too, they had concerns over what would happen next.
But if the deal had been sensitively implemented with a Trusted Trader scheme etc then would it have raised cross border trade, and lowered cross Sea trade? If a Trusted Trader scheme had been sensitively implemented avoiding all the Unionists concerns then potentially the Protocol could have won their support.
It wasn't, so it didn't, so A16 is appropriate.
I take it 'Trusted Trader' is suddenly the new big thing. Forgive me if I missed it, but have you ever actually mentioned it before this evening?
Here's one example in January to william when I thought things were going well as the trusted trader scheme was going to happen. Before william saw the light. 😉
London’s famous New Year’s Eve fireworks display has been cancelled for a second year due to the pandemic."
Insane. Sadiq Khan. FFS
He still won't get the night tube running either. The guy is so useless. Women are being put in danger and all he does is talk about it. No action at all.
I don't know anyone that has a single good word for him. God knows who voted for him
And this is universal. It's not just my friends - left and right - who despise him, it's everyone. He is a void. He is inert. He doesn't do anything. His leadership through this crisis has been - nil. Nought. Invisible.
Labour will probably make him leader after Starmer
I would argue that the social benefits of Covid, such as the WFH revolution and people having an opportunity to reprioritise in their lives, more than outweighs the social harms.
Yet there are those for whom the periods of enforced isolation have been purgatory whether because they are alone or with someone with whom they no longer want to live or for a myriad other reasons.
Many have, as you say, coped not only well but prospered. Getting off the commuting treadmill has been a positive personal benefit but I'd never want to generalise it.
It's clear some on here have found it hard going at times and if this forum has provided some much needed contact I'm delighted we've all managed to help each other through this.
Lockdown was horrific. Depressing. Unbearable. I’m still astounded whenever I hear anyone suggest that they enjoyed it. A closed world is grim.
I'm with you. Lockdown 3 took me close to a total breakdown, and it has left permanent mental scars on me. I can never do it again. I would rather take my chances with a plague + vaccine
I have plenty of friends who weathered most of it just fine (generally richer, older people in big houses, often outside London) tho by the end, even the most relaxed were beginning to fray, in quirky ways
I have other friends who were exactly like us. They hated most of it, and they suffered accordingly. I know of at least 2 divorces
Lockdowns were pretty bad. At least I could still go to work (in manufacturing, so continued to go in throughout the entire horror,) and I have a husband to come home to afterwards. I shudder to think what it was like for single people working from home in officey jobs - for most of them the prolonged isolation must've been dreadful.
I do think predictions are right that there will be a lot more home working than their used to be, it's just be shown to be doable and it is convenient in a lot of ways, but I do hope there is a bit less of it than people currently think. I've had a few people tell me recently that on going to the office for the first time in ages they did find it almost relaxing. They still are happy to home work much of the time, but hopefully people will remember that office working is not all horrible commuting and drudgery. Personally I think the value of separating your work space from your home space on wellbeing is underestimated.
Lockdown worked for me. Hardly any traffic on the way to work. Saved me 30 min every day.
You weren’t actually locked down though were you? So what you are really saying is that other people’s lockdown worked for you. I realise that you had to go into work because you are a ward doctor, but given the discussion is about how lockdown affected you, I don’t see how your comment reveals anything much, other than you like traffic-free roads.
I see the Remoaners are getting awfully upset over on Twitter and in the media that Lord Frost might have another negotiating success over the NI protocol.
I know that's meant to provoke, but there is an interesting bit of psychology in all this. I do think there really is a difference in the population - perhaps this is the lover vs fighter point raised earlier - between those who enjoy a good old fight and those who couldn't think of anything worse.
For those of us of a more, shall we say, conflict avoiding disposition seeing Frost do what Frost does is embarrassing. So much so that in my case I find myself wincing and watching the thing through my hands. It's embarrassing in exactly the same way as when you're with one of those people who decide very loudly to complain in a restaurant. You plead with them not to make a fuss. You try to explain things from the establishment's point of view. But they won't be dissuaded. Off they go on their rant, demanding to speak to the chef, and the rest of the table just wants the ground to open up and swallow them.
Now the trouble is you never know what will happen. Possibly half the time or more the blighter complaining will get a little victory, like drinks on the house or a partial refund, because the staff just want a way to make them go quietly. That just makes them all the more likely to act up at the next establishment. Occasionally they get kicked out of the restaurant and told never to come back. In that case the rest of the table feel it more keenly than the complainant, who just launches into a torrent of swearwords and bangs on about how unfair it is.
So I'm afraid - and I don't think this is just a remainer thing, it's a cultural thing - there will always be a substantial chunk of the public who will wince when their politicians ask to speak to the manager.
Good analogy. People who complain in restaurants are the absolute dregs of humanity.
Don't some of the "absolute dregs of humanity" have good reason to complain immediately and do it in a reasonable way?
Surely a restaurant would prefer that to a customer meekly lying that everything was good, and then posting their real review online later.
I worked in a restaurant for 5 years. My experience was that complaints were a function of the personality of the customer and were more or less orthogonal to their culinary experience. Some complained about *everything*, others would apologise to you as they pointed out that there was broken glass in their water. You could usually predict who was going to be a prick before they even sat down. Restaurants know when they've given you shit service, you won't be helping them by pointing it out, and it's rarely the fault of the person you will get to complain to. If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing.
My wife once found broken glass in a chocolate mousse at a restaurant. We pointed it out, they apologised, brought a replacement and didn't charge for either.
I think it was a terrible mistake for them to have made. It would have been very easy for my wife to have swallowed the glass and caused herself a serious injury. But, once the mistake had been discovered there wasn't much use making too much of a fuss about it. The worst thing about it in the end was the hassle of having to point it out, and the nagging doubt that we'd never feel comfortable returning, even though the food was otherwise very good.
You do get the impression that some people are delighted when they have something to complain about, and want to establish some moral superiority out of the situation.
I think the no complainers are absolutely wrong. I provide the most feedback to the restaurants I like the most. I tell them when I think they've got it right and when I think they've got it wrong on everything from recipe, to cooking, to service. I give more leeway to new hires, but will let management know if I think a novice needs a little more coaching. Coming from the world of safety, feedback we receive is a gift for which we should be thankful, and giving feedback is a duty.
The key in giving feedback is to give it from a place of caring, and to make it clear that it is for the purposes of improvement, not blame.
London’s famous New Year’s Eve fireworks display has been cancelled for a second year due to the pandemic."
Insane. Sadiq Khan. FFS
He still won't get the night tube running either. The guy is so useless. Women are being put in danger and all he does is talk about it. No action at all.
His failure on the Night Tube is a disgrace. There seems to be no urgency to revive it. It is scandalous, and the London media need to do more to hold him to account on it.
Since when did the UN start trolling us? Helen Ward @profhelenward · 1h "The UN under secretary-general, Vera Songwe, said Hancock’s “success” in handling the UK’s pandemic response was a testament to the strengths he would bring to the role."
Start? Isn't sending UN apparatchiks to do reports on nations like the UK and saying they are worst in the world about something a grand tradition?
I would argue that the social benefits of Covid, such as the WFH revolution and people having an opportunity to reprioritise in their lives, more than outweighs the social harms.
Yet there are those for whom the periods of enforced isolation have been purgatory whether because they are alone or with someone with whom they no longer want to live or for a myriad other reasons.
Many have, as you say, coped not only well but prospered. Getting off the commuting treadmill has been a positive personal benefit but I'd never want to generalise it.
It's clear some on here have found it hard going at times and if this forum has provided some much needed contact I'm delighted we've all managed to help each other through this.
Lockdown was horrific. Depressing. Unbearable. I’m still astounded whenever I hear anyone suggest that they enjoyed it. A closed world is grim.
I'm with you. Lockdown 3 took me close to a total breakdown, and it has left permanent mental scars on me. I can never do it again. I would rather take my chances with a plague + vaccine
I have plenty of friends who weathered most of it just fine (generally richer, older people in big houses, often outside London) tho by the end, even the most relaxed were beginning to fray, in quirky ways
I have other friends who were exactly like us. They hated most of it, and they suffered accordingly. I know of at least 2 divorces
Lockdowns were pretty bad. At least I could still go to work (in manufacturing, so continued to go in throughout the entire horror,) and I have a husband to come home to afterwards. I shudder to think what it was like for single people working from home in officey jobs - for most of them the prolonged isolation must've been dreadful.
A mate of mine falls into that category. He’s quite an introverted guy but absolutely hated lockdown WFH, it took him to the brink of depression. Extremely lonely.
My wife's best friend moved into our spare bedroom in lockdown 3 because she's single, lives alone and her office was shut. She just needed some actual human contact with real people. It was nice to have her stay as well after essentially a year of it being just me and my wife alone together every evening. I love her but it's not easy to only spend time with the same person all day and then all evening and night for months on end.
Comments
The inane uptalk is a giveaway
The last time this ward was contested was at the 2017 Scottish local elections.
The first preference results were:
36% SNP
32% Cons
27% Lab
5% Green
https://smarkets.com/event/42417026/politics/uk/local-government/falkirk-south-by-election
I think it was a terrible mistake for them to have made. It would have been very easy for my wife to have swallowed the glass and caused herself a serious injury. But, once the mistake had been discovered there wasn't much use making too much of a fuss about it. The worst thing about it in the end was the hassle of having to point it out, and the nagging doubt that we'd never feel comfortable returning, even though the food was otherwise very good.
You do get the impression that some people are delighted when they have something to complain about, and want to establish some moral superiority out of the situation.
It's almost as if they've suddenly realised that the UK has got other options and all they're doing is marginalising their own agenda by acting like dicks all the time.
I really do believe that the EU thought they were the only game in town and that any non-European country wishing to do business in Europe would first treat with the EU and pay the toll. I really don't think they expected that the UK would conduct a completely independent and somewhat hostile foreign policy so soon after Brexit while some of it isn't settled and with the US who were definitely going to be best friends with the EU because of Biden.
The joke's on all of us in thinking there must be some plan or objective.
They were so convinced in their own worldview that they just knew that Biden was on their side. Look at the imagery of Biden hugging Macron while at G7 etc - with Macron giving Boris a public 'dressing down'. And Biden supposedly was giving Britain a demarche at the same time.
When in reality Biden and Boris (and Morrison) were in the next room plotting the future together. Macron and all the other EU leaders weren't even in the room.
Their fragile reality was destroyed in that moment.
Plus he's politically dead now, no point in drawing him into it, that's what inquiries will be for.
"Always useful to know how France thinks . . . French Finance Minister Le Maire declared that the US needs to recognize "Europe as one of the three superpowers in the world for the 21st century,” alongside the US & China (w/ no mention of Russia)"
https://twitter.com/TheresaAFallon/status/1447865102816923648?s=20
How does the US "recognise Europe as a superpower"? Is there a triplicate Superpower Application form that Joe Biden can fill in on France's behalf? Is there a special superpower club where France needs America as a member to propose the EU is included, without Russia adding a blackball?
Absurd and embarrassing. You are a superpower if you exhibit that kind of power: ie you can clearly exert global power all around the world, at will. China can, the USA can, and they can both do it economically (where China is more powerful), and militarily (where America is more powerful)
The EU has zero power militarily and its global economic power is questionable and waning, after Brexit. It is more like the European HQ of the WTO, and the WTO is certainly not "a superpower"
It is still quite possible for the EU to truly unite, and then it would be puissant. But no signs of that happening, yet
Spring lamb?
However that does not mean Starmer could not become PM even if the Tories win most seats in a hung parliament
It's interesting, though, that the whole thread has been about complaints. How proactive are we about praise? Your waiter is really helpful, do you tell reception? The food is delicious, do you ask to speak to the chef? I do that a bit more than complaining, but probably not enough.
BBC News - Felixstowe port says HGV shortage a factor in container logjam
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58888552
Owen Jones 🌹
@OwenJones84
·
4h
Amusing as it is that the Labour leader crashed after refusing to listen to advice to turn left, why on earth did his advisors sign this stunt off?
They’re the self styled grown ups of politics, how could they not see the REALLY BAD IDEA sign in flashing neon lights?
I ALWAYS praise if I have enjoyed a meal, service, hotel. I make a definite point of it, it's a posh resto I say "please tell the chef such-and-such dish was LOVELY, I loved the fennel/spicing/whatever", if it's more of a gastropub I tell the staff "that was REALLY nice, thankyou, especially the xxxxxxx"
I will also specifically thank the staff at a check out if a hotel has been good. Why not?
If you are willing to complain you must also be happy to praise, and to do it sincerely and in detail, so they know it is heart-felt. Plus, you get happy smiley staff, and everyone has a tiny dopamine hit, so what's not to love?
One element that struck me was this (emphasis mine):
Whether or not you agree with either analysis - the facts on the ground are what matter above all. Maybe there is a world in which the Protocol could have worked, more sensitively implemented. But the situation has now moved on. We now face a very serious situation. The Protocol is not working. It has completely lost consent in one community in Northern Ireland. It is not doing the thing it was set up to do – protect the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement. In fact it is doing the opposite. It has to change.
This matches without spelling it out exactly what a lot of us have said, that if the Trusted Trader scheme had been appropriately implemented then the Protocol as written could have worked. It wasn't, so we are where we are.
No bad faith.
I have plenty of friends who weathered most of it just fine (generally richer, older people in big houses, often outside London) tho by the end, even the most relaxed were beginning to fray, in quirky ways
I have other friends who were exactly like us. They hated most of it, and they suffered accordingly. I know of at least 2 divorces
The problem with the protocol as far as Unionists are concerned is that it has significantly integrated the Island. Cross border trade is up, cross Irish Sea trade down.
But if the deal had been sensitively implemented with a Trusted Trader scheme etc then would it have raised cross border trade, and lowered cross Sea trade? If a Trusted Trader scheme had been sensitively implemented avoiding all the Unionists concerns then potentially the Protocol could have won their support.
It wasn't, so it didn't, so A16 is appropriate.
"For all the cant about international law, a/ states break it every week, b/ the idea it's the epitome of morality is low grade student politics pushed by lawyers/officials to constrain politics they oppose. Govt shd focus on solving problems & chill viz "i/n law" viz NI #IMBill2"
"Shd we generally stick to deals? Of course. Sometimes break them? Of course. Just like the EU, US, China and every other state does. International diplomacy cannot be judged by the standards of a student duel, and lawyers are hired help not the masters"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/billy-connolly-id-be-cancelled-if-i-was-starting-out-in-comedy-now-6kbltbg7b
Classic Brit.
Not a great precedent for a government, but not much of a surprise for this one.
https://twitter.com/joshdcaplan/status/1447993677561929735?t=b_4U9mSx5I4JRudLLqgjeQ&s=19
In all honesty the idea you don't break treaties the instant it is convenient for you is probably pretty recent in some ways, if a cursory look at medieval history is any indication. Not that we should do so flippantly, not at all, but talk around international law is very often posturing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slw08b3bHFE
London’s famous New Year’s Eve fireworks display has been cancelled for a second year due to the pandemic."
We have hear the bombast, but let's see if there is real negotiation.
The basis of the NI protocol is that NI remains in the Single Market (which matches how it voted). Inevitably that means that EU law applies, and that the customs border is in the Irish Sea. No amount of "Trusted Trader" gets past that fundamental concession that Johnson and Frost made.
So, you know, the EU can go fuck itself with a dildo the size of the Eiffel Tower with a 30 metre wide Nigel Farage-shaped carved flint glans penis, right on the top, as is traditional
Jeez.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58882954
The thing is, I'm very introverted, but it really makes a difference knowing you don't even have the option to do something, even if you probably wouldn't have in the first place.
As The Cat said about quaranteening with people you hang out with all the time anyway, it makes a big difference knowing you can walk out the door at any time.
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1448030511650181128
Critically, for large mixed consignments of animal-based products only one export health certificate will be required (rather than dozens)
On customs, the principle will be that goods deemed not at risk of entering the single market will have a zero customs value in the UK system, but that will also expand to mean minimal customs requirements
Doctor admits coronavirus faked to make their work easier.
https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk
Helen Ward
@profhelenward
·
1h
"The UN under secretary-general, Vera Songwe, said Hancock’s “success” in handling the UK’s pandemic response was a testament to the strengths he would bring to the role."
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3229621#Comment_3229621
Or July proposing Article 16 and a trusted trader scheme once it became clear that the EU weren't going to implement it: https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3495813#Comment_3495813
Or way back in 2018 when May was still PM: https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/2045105#Comment_2045105
Or February 2019 when May was still PM: https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/2190673#Comment_2190673
Its always been the workable solution to this mess.
And this is universal. It's not just my friends - left and right - who despise him, it's everyone. He is a void. He is inert. He doesn't do anything. His leadership through this crisis has been - nil. Nought. Invisible.
Labour will probably make him leader after Starmer
Post Blair governments have dropped the bollock on this.
The key in giving feedback is to give it from a place of caring, and to make it clear that it is for the purposes of improvement, not blame.