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Conference season ends with Hung Parliament still betting favourite – politicalbetting.com

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  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,893

    nico679 said:

    The suspicion is the UK government will only accept an agreement that renders the protocol so ineffective that the EU could never agree to it. Unionists want effectively no consequences of Brexit and will only stop moaning if they get everything they want .

    Why can you not accept the EU has buckled under pressure and yes, Frost is right to seek his objectives

    Why are EU supporters blind to the adverse actions of UVDL and others or do they look on the EU as some omnipotent presence
    Because we have a European identity and fucking despise the simple minded nationalism and retrogressive world view that Brexit represents. Leavers are never going to come to terms with their victory until they understand that.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,634

    HYUFD said:

    Yougov this morning though still sees the Conservatives with a clear lead on 39% to 31% for Labour. Boris would win a comfortable majority again on those numbers.

    However Yougov also has the Greens much higher than other pollsters at 9% which mainly comes at Labour's expense
    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1446034709629243405?s=20

    The Cons. seem stuck on circa 40% with little suggestion of decline. I do not believe Labour on 31%. If there was an election today 40 plays 35 looks likely to me.
    42:34 at best for Labour.
    I don't disagree with 34, but 42 is outside the range of the polling.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,739
    Dura_Ace said:

    nico679 said:

    The suspicion is the UK government will only accept an agreement that renders the protocol so ineffective that the EU could never agree to it. Unionists want effectively no consequences of Brexit and will only stop moaning if they get everything they want .

    Why can you not accept the EU has buckled under pressure and yes, Frost is right to seek his objectives

    Why are EU supporters blind to the adverse actions of UVDL and others or do they look on the EU as some omnipotent presence
    Because we have a European identity and fucking despise the simple minded nationalism and retrogressive world view that Brexit represents. Leavers are never going to come to terms with their victory until they understand that.
    For such a firebrand lefty your dismal bending over for the EU is quite disappointing, Dura. Workers of the EU unite, you have nothing to fear but exploitation by UK and German companies who want to make a quick buck.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 603

    Scott_xP said:

    It is the determination by Frost to obtain a sensible deal

    Frost said the last deal was sensible.

    Obviously the man has no clue what a good deal looks like.
    Anywhere other than in Boris-world, Frosty would have been given his P45 long ago. Northern Ireland was a critical consideration and the EU, rightly but mistakenly, would have thought that a British negotiator had his finger firmly and unwaveringly on that particular pulse. They were naïve on that score. That the EU now feels it necessary to step in and clean up Frosty's mess is as big a source of embarrassment as it is alarm.
    You are very much assuming with was an accidental mistake. Had you considered that perhaps it was deliberate to end up in the current situation? The Brexit deal is signed and now they are re-negotiating the part that they couldn't get the way they wanted at the time.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 13,995
    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,806


    Why are EU supporters blind to the adverse actions of UVDL and others or do they look on the EU as some omnipotent presence

    IMHO, the EU really went downhill when we left :wink:

    It is - and has always been - more omnifarious than omnipotent
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 224

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    Obviously the EU cares (quite rightly) about uncertified UK goods reaching continental europe through RoI. But do you think that RoI or EU or both care much about them reaching RoI?
  • isamisam Posts: 38,441

    HYUFD said:

    Yougov this morning though still sees the Conservatives with a clear lead on 39% to 31% for Labour. Boris would win a comfortable majority again on those numbers.

    However Yougov also has the Greens much higher than other pollsters at 9% which mainly comes at Labour's expense
    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1446034709629243405?s=20

    The Cons. seem stuck on circa 40% with little suggestion of decline. I do not believe Labour on 31%. If there was an election today 40 plays 35 looks likely to me.
    42:34 at best for Labour.
    I don't disagree with 34, but 42 is outside the range of the polling.
    The current range, yes. But it is hardly unprecedented for this Govt to get 42, and more.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,884
    Anecdote of the day.

    My RAC membership. Was coming due next week. Renewal was around £240 wtf! Called a couple of weeks ago - this is crazy, too much, etc. OK We'll give it to you for £160. That's better.

    Call yesterday from them - what now? Just wondered if you wanted to renew at £130. Er, yes pls.

    No probs, terms and conditions, blah, blah, agent may be compensated for this sale, blah, blah.

    The RAC has gone all Glengarry Glen Ross.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 18,353

    The EU have said they'll renegotiate the NI Protocol. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-58826305 😂

    Lord Frost really is very good at his job, isn't he?



    Oh what a surprise! I didn't think this would happen. No sirrrreeeee ;)
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 7,197
    AlistairM said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It is the determination by Frost to obtain a sensible deal

    Frost said the last deal was sensible.

    Obviously the man has no clue what a good deal looks like.
    Anywhere other than in Boris-world, Frosty would have been given his P45 long ago. Northern Ireland was a critical consideration and the EU, rightly but mistakenly, would have thought that a British negotiator had his finger firmly and unwaveringly on that particular pulse. They were naïve on that score. That the EU now feels it necessary to step in and clean up Frosty's mess is as big a source of embarrassment as it is alarm.
    You are very much assuming with was an accidental mistake. Had you considered that perhaps it was deliberate to end up in the current situation? The Brexit deal is signed and now they are re-negotiating the part that they couldn't get the way they wanted at the time.
    Yes, it's possibly that Frosty signed off simply to help Boris with his general-election campaign and his 'Oven-Ready Deal' slogan. But that possibility is too frightening to contemplate.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 13,995
    carnforth said:

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    Obviously the EU cares (quite rightly) about uncertified UK goods reaching continental europe through RoI. But do you think that RoI or EU or both care much about them reaching RoI?
    There is no difference between ROI and "continental Europe" - both are EEA. The basis for a renegotiation should be that recertifying products is simple because both the UK and EU have shared standards. Join the dots boys, lets trade again.

    As Brexiteers are such fans of A16 where one party can trigger arbitration, lets just remap it so the A16 lever is if either the EU or UK try and diverge a standard beyond the tolerance of the other.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 702

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    This is ridiculous. If alignment has to happen then it needs to be alignment between both sides, not the one side following the other side's rules. What needs to happen is that the UK and the EU both accept that each other will have high product standards even if they slightly differ in the detail. They allow for each others products to have full equivalency in the island of Ireland and are not to be sold commercially in GB or mainland EU. A tiny amount of products will circulate beyond Ireland through informal mechanisms but it won't have a meaningful impact and is less important than the peace process.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,022
    edited October 7
    MaxPB said:

    Fishing said:

    Brussels has knocked back French demands to hit the UK with tariffs and cut off British access to EU energy supplies in the row over post-Brexit fishing rights.

    Other EU capitals told Paris to dial down the rhetoric until a full investigation into the dispute was carried out, it has emerged.

    A senior EU diplomat said: “Once again France is instrumentalising the EU for national interests.”


    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/brussels-tells-paris-back-down-095812046.html

    The EU doesn't understand that that's the whole point of the EU, at least according to the French.
    Given that the French are coming to the realisation that it isn't, how much more likely does Frexit become? They've already got the sovereignists among their senior political ranks like Barnier calling for repatriation of sovereignty and judicial independence from the ECJ. If the EU no longer bends to France's will on foreign policy and instead follows the German lead it won't be long until France wants out. It has always had a redline of being in charge of its own destiny, being tied to Germany's agenda will be a long term gain for the Frexit argument.
    I was wondering that myself. Obviously I'd like to see Frexit (though I'd rather call it Frogxit). But I think it's much less likely than Brexit was for three reasons:

    a) France is in the euro
    b) France does more of its trade with the rest of the EU than we did (about 60% of its exports vs 40% or so of ours)
    c) France doesn't have an extra-European set of allies like we do which provide a credible alternative, at least on security
    d) the French Establishment would have to admit that its entire foreign policy for seventy years, of keeping the Germans in and the Americans out, has been a total failure.

    So I think the rest of the EU is going to have to put up with an erratic France, at least for the foreseeable future. No Frogxit.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 702
    Dura_Ace said:

    nico679 said:

    The suspicion is the UK government will only accept an agreement that renders the protocol so ineffective that the EU could never agree to it. Unionists want effectively no consequences of Brexit and will only stop moaning if they get everything they want .

    Why can you not accept the EU has buckled under pressure and yes, Frost is right to seek his objectives

    Why are EU supporters blind to the adverse actions of UVDL and others or do they look on the EU as some omnipotent presence
    Because we have a European identity and fucking despise the simple minded nationalism and retrogressive world view that Brexit represents. Leavers are never going to come to terms with their victory until they understand that.
    It is pretty clear on here that arch Remainers "European identity" is just as much a bloody minded, my-side-right-or-wrong, nationalism as exists for any other country.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,189

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    "A border must go somewhere" is the problem. No it doesn't.

    Are people in NI British citizens or Irish citizens? What's the border?

    The GFA says there is no border either way. That's the only solution that works, to recognise both parties right to diverge while treating NI as a special province that has no border with either.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,457
    TOPPING said:

    Anecdote of the day.

    My RAC membership. Was coming due next week. Renewal was around £240 wtf! Called a couple of weeks ago - this is crazy, too much, etc. OK We'll give it to you for £160. That's better.

    Call yesterday from them - what now? Just wondered if you wanted to renew at £130. Er, yes pls.

    No probs, terms and conditions, blah, blah, agent may be compensated for this sale, blah, blah.

    The RAC has gone all Glengarry Glen Ross.

    What a great film that was.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,957
    AlistairM said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It is the determination by Frost to obtain a sensible deal

    Frost said the last deal was sensible.

    Obviously the man has no clue what a good deal looks like.
    Anywhere other than in Boris-world, Frosty would have been given his P45 long ago. Northern Ireland was a critical consideration and the EU, rightly but mistakenly, would have thought that a British negotiator had his finger firmly and unwaveringly on that particular pulse. They were naïve on that score. That the EU now feels it necessary to step in and clean up Frosty's mess is as big a source of embarrassment as it is alarm.
    You are very much assuming with was an accidental mistake. Had you considered that perhaps it was deliberate to end up in the current situation? The Brexit deal is signed and now they are re-negotiating the part that they couldn't get the way they wanted at the time.
    It is certainly possible. Yet the people cheering this situation were also cheering the original Boris deal when Boris was saying it was a spectacular deal.

    If it really was a secret plan to pass a deal so shit it needs changing within two years, then those cheerleading the original Boris deal have shown themselves to be poor judges of trade deals.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 7,197

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    Interesting. That sounds very much like a variation on Theresa's deal (or actually identical to it). But surely even Boris wouldn't have the chutzpah to sign up to that and then invite his admirers to worship him for it? Would he?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 569
    No compromise from the EU will be enough and that’s been the concern in Brussels . You have to have the border somewhere and I expect no 10 will rubbish any proposals from the EU even if they show compromise . No 10 wants a continual war of words with the EU which it can ratchet up when it needs to deflect from its problems at home . I expect come the next election this will go into overdrive . Bozo needs his coalition of Leavers and so will need to throw some red meat to them.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,189

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    Interesting. That sounds very much like a variation on Theresa's deal (or actually identical to it). But surely even Boris wouldn't have the chutzpah to sign up to that and then invite his admirers to worship him for it? Would he?
    Of course not, its not happening. Its the final wishcasting of Rochdale as he sees his dreams of NI leading to an end to divergence die a death.

    No flowers.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 13,995
    Aslan said:

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    This is ridiculous. If alignment has to happen then it needs to be alignment between both sides, not the one side following the other side's rules. What needs to happen is that the UK and the EU both accept that each other will have high product standards even if they slightly differ in the detail. They allow for each others products to have full equivalency in the island of Ireland and are not to be sold commercially in GB or mainland EU. A tiny amount of products will circulate beyond Ireland through informal mechanisms but it won't have a meaningful impact and is less important than the peace process.
    You miss the point. I am parking all of the bullshit and looking at practicalities. We are not talking about one side following the other side's rules. Our rules are their rules are our rules. We just need to drop the "sovrinty" spin and recognise this.

    As and when there is a divergence issue in the future an arbitration process can fix them so that both parties are happy. This is the same as with any trade deal with anyone.

    "If alignment has to happen" - we are already aligned!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,189
    nico679 said:

    No compromise from the EU will be enough and that’s been the concern in Brussels . You have to have the border somewhere and I expect no 10 will rubbish any proposals from the EU even if they show compromise . No 10 wants a continual war of words with the EU which it can ratchet up when it needs to deflect from its problems at home . I expect come the next election this will go into overdrive . Bozo needs his coalition of Leavers and so will need to throw some red meat to them.

    The compromise is to not put the border anywhere. Or to reciprocally put it around the whole island of Ireland.

    "All goods legal in either the UK or the EU are legal on the island of Ireland. Any firms transferring goods from the island of Ireland to either GB or the rest of the EU that are not legal there could be liable for prosecution." There, new Protocol, done and dusted.

    If that means the UK legalising hormone treated beef, or chlorinated chicken, and that ends up in Belfast and Dublin then so be it.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 1,668
    edited October 7
    TOPPING said:

    Anecdote of the day.

    My RAC membership. Was coming due next week. Renewal was around £240 wtf! Called a couple of weeks ago - this is crazy, too much, etc. OK We'll give it to you for £160. That's better.

    Call yesterday from them - what now? Just wondered if you wanted to renew at £130. Er, yes pls.

    No probs, terms and conditions, blah, blah, agent may be compensated for this sale, blah, blah.

    The RAC has gone all Glengarry Glen Ross.

    Probably because they have a "50% off" sale on their website now, for which they had to ramp up the price beforehand.

    More DFS than anything...
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 13,995

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    Interesting. That sounds very much like a variation on Theresa's deal (or actually identical to it). But surely even Boris wouldn't have the chutzpah to sign up to that and then invite his admirers to worship him for it? Would he?
    Why wouldn't he? Think about his victory getting the big bad EU to cave in! Not only are they dropping all their barriers to trade, they are agreeing to OUR rules! Huzzah!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,189

    Aslan said:

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    This is ridiculous. If alignment has to happen then it needs to be alignment between both sides, not the one side following the other side's rules. What needs to happen is that the UK and the EU both accept that each other will have high product standards even if they slightly differ in the detail. They allow for each others products to have full equivalency in the island of Ireland and are not to be sold commercially in GB or mainland EU. A tiny amount of products will circulate beyond Ireland through informal mechanisms but it won't have a meaningful impact and is less important than the peace process.
    You miss the point. I am parking all of the bullshit and looking at practicalities. We are not talking about one side following the other side's rules. Our rules are their rules are our rules. We just need to drop the "sovrinty" spin and recognise this.

    As and when there is a divergence issue in the future an arbitration process can fix them so that both parties are happy. This is the same as with any trade deal with anyone.

    "If alignment has to happen" - we are already aligned!
    We've already started diverging actually, see the plans to criminalise the import of foie gros and divergence will continue for years to come.

    But you know that. Just because you start at the same starting point doesn't mean you'll remain aligned if you head off in other directions.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 13,995

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    Interesting. That sounds very much like a variation on Theresa's deal (or actually identical to it). But surely even Boris wouldn't have the chutzpah to sign up to that and then invite his admirers to worship him for it? Would he?
    Of course not, its not happening. Its the final wishcasting of Rochdale as he sees his dreams of NI leading to an end to divergence die a death.

    No flowers.
    What divergence? We haven't diverged. Nor are we proposing to diverge in any substantial way.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 1,003
    Just in case anyone missed it (perish the thought) any options for a legal route to IndyRef2 without Westminster approval have been well and truly quashed by the Supreme Court. ScotGov tried their luck with a bill which transgressed into Westminster territory, which was obviously designed as a test of the system.

    "The judgement by Lord Reed, one of Scotland’s most eminent judges, is unrelenting in its criticism of the Scottish Government approach.”

    Lord Reed is the senior judge on the Court. He was not amused.

    Details here: https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-accused-of-playing-nationalist-games-amid-supreme-court-defeat-over-childrens-rights-3409047
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,628
    edited October 7

    TOPPING said:

    Anecdote of the day.

    My RAC membership. Was coming due next week. Renewal was around £240 wtf! Called a couple of weeks ago - this is crazy, too much, etc. OK We'll give it to you for £160. That's better.

    Call yesterday from them - what now? Just wondered if you wanted to renew at £130. Er, yes pls.

    No probs, terms and conditions, blah, blah, agent may be compensated for this sale, blah, blah.

    The RAC has gone all Glengarry Glen Ross.

    What a great film that was.
    yes same atmosphere style as the later Margin Call . Margin Call imo is the greatest film you can watch for free on youtube - in fact very surprised its on in its full glory on youtube. Jeremy Irons is magnificent as the" the whistleblower's bosses bosses bosses bosses boss! Spacey is also great as the mere bosses bosses boss!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 13,995

    Aslan said:

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    This is ridiculous. If alignment has to happen then it needs to be alignment between both sides, not the one side following the other side's rules. What needs to happen is that the UK and the EU both accept that each other will have high product standards even if they slightly differ in the detail. They allow for each others products to have full equivalency in the island of Ireland and are not to be sold commercially in GB or mainland EU. A tiny amount of products will circulate beyond Ireland through informal mechanisms but it won't have a meaningful impact and is less important than the peace process.
    You miss the point. I am parking all of the bullshit and looking at practicalities. We are not talking about one side following the other side's rules. Our rules are their rules are our rules. We just need to drop the "sovrinty" spin and recognise this.

    As and when there is a divergence issue in the future an arbitration process can fix them so that both parties are happy. This is the same as with any trade deal with anyone.

    "If alignment has to happen" - we are already aligned!
    We've already started diverging actually, see the plans to criminalise the import of foie gros and divergence will continue for years to come.

    But you know that. Just because you start at the same starting point doesn't mean you'll remain aligned if you head off in other directions.
    Wow. Nobody is going to torpedo a deal over Foie Gras. Incidentally the UK has not banned its import and the European Parliament has instructed the commission to start work on its own ban. So we are currently aligned and we are both going in the same direction on Foie Gras.

    Any deal will have fuzz around the edges. That is what arbitration is for if required. As it will be with our Australian deal as and when that eventually takes effect in 2035.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 13,995

    TOPPING said:

    Anecdote of the day.

    My RAC membership. Was coming due next week. Renewal was around £240 wtf! Called a couple of weeks ago - this is crazy, too much, etc. OK We'll give it to you for £160. That's better.

    Call yesterday from them - what now? Just wondered if you wanted to renew at £130. Er, yes pls.

    No probs, terms and conditions, blah, blah, agent may be compensated for this sale, blah, blah.

    The RAC has gone all Glengarry Glen Ross.

    What a great film that was.
    yes same atmosphere style as the later Margin Call . Margin Call imo is the greatest film you can watch for free on youtube - in fact very surprised its on in its full glory on youtube. Jeremy Irons is magnificent as the" the whistleblower's bosses bosses bosses bosses boss! Stacey is also great as the mere bosses bosses boss!
    Complete with the very moving scene at the end where Kevin Spacey digs a big pit to bury his career dog.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,189

    Just in case anyone missed it (perish the thought) any options for a legal route to IndyRef2 without Westminster approval have been well and truly quashed by the Supreme Court. ScotGov tried their luck with a bill which transgressed into Westminster territory, which was obviously designed as a test of the system.

    "The judgement by Lord Reed, one of Scotland’s most eminent judges, is unrelenting in its criticism of the Scottish Government approach.”

    Lord Reed is the senior judge on the Court. He was not amused.

    Details here: https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-accused-of-playing-nationalist-games-amid-supreme-court-defeat-over-childrens-rights-3409047

    There is a glaring loophole that means that a referendum might be lawful and consistent with this judgment though. Miller is why I think the SNP could win in SCOTUK the right to hold a referendum.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,748

    Aslan said:

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    This is ridiculous. If alignment has to happen then it needs to be alignment between both sides, not the one side following the other side's rules. What needs to happen is that the UK and the EU both accept that each other will have high product standards even if they slightly differ in the detail. They allow for each others products to have full equivalency in the island of Ireland and are not to be sold commercially in GB or mainland EU. A tiny amount of products will circulate beyond Ireland through informal mechanisms but it won't have a meaningful impact and is less important than the peace process.
    You miss the point. I am parking all of the bullshit and looking at practicalities. We are not talking about one side following the other side's rules. Our rules are their rules are our rules. We just need to drop the "sovrinty" spin and recognise this.

    As and when there is a divergence issue in the future an arbitration process can fix them so that both parties are happy. This is the same as with any trade deal with anyone.

    "If alignment has to happen" - we are already aligned!
    So you voted for Brexit because you thought us having a say in the EU was too much trouble even though you were quite happy to follow its rules?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,257
    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nico679 said:

    The suspicion is the UK government will only accept an agreement that renders the protocol so ineffective that the EU could never agree to it. Unionists want effectively no consequences of Brexit and will only stop moaning if they get everything they want .

    Why can you not accept the EU has buckled under pressure and yes, Frost is right to seek his objectives

    Why are EU supporters blind to the adverse actions of UVDL and others or do they look on the EU as some omnipotent presence
    Because we have a European identity and fucking despise the simple minded nationalism and retrogressive world view that Brexit represents. Leavers are never going to come to terms with their victory until they understand that.
    For such a firebrand lefty your dismal bending over for the EU is quite disappointing, Dura. Workers of the EU unite, you have nothing to fear but exploitation by UK and German companies who want to make a quick buck.
    Some of us voted to leave the EU's capitalist hegemony, and open up the possibility (however slim) of creating a truly Socialist Republic here in the UK.

    And more to the point, the weather is gorgeous today. And I've been to Greggs for my dinner.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,189

    Aslan said:

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    This is ridiculous. If alignment has to happen then it needs to be alignment between both sides, not the one side following the other side's rules. What needs to happen is that the UK and the EU both accept that each other will have high product standards even if they slightly differ in the detail. They allow for each others products to have full equivalency in the island of Ireland and are not to be sold commercially in GB or mainland EU. A tiny amount of products will circulate beyond Ireland through informal mechanisms but it won't have a meaningful impact and is less important than the peace process.
    You miss the point. I am parking all of the bullshit and looking at practicalities. We are not talking about one side following the other side's rules. Our rules are their rules are our rules. We just need to drop the "sovrinty" spin and recognise this.

    As and when there is a divergence issue in the future an arbitration process can fix them so that both parties are happy. This is the same as with any trade deal with anyone.

    "If alignment has to happen" - we are already aligned!
    We've already started diverging actually, see the plans to criminalise the import of foie gros and divergence will continue for years to come.

    But you know that. Just because you start at the same starting point doesn't mean you'll remain aligned if you head off in other directions.
    Wow. Nobody is going to torpedo a deal over Foie Gras. Incidentally the UK has not banned its import and the European Parliament has instructed the commission to start work on its own ban. So we are currently aligned and we are both going in the same direction on Foie Gras.

    Any deal will have fuzz around the edges. That is what arbitration is for if required. As it will be with our Australian deal as and when that eventually takes effect in 2035.
    So your solution to the NI situation is to abolish the Protocol and replace it with arbitration if the UK and EU diverge far? So NI would be fully in the UK and the UK including NI would be free to diverge from the EU?

    Depending upon the details I could live with that.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,402

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    I get that you feel Brexit has been handled so poorly as not to be worth it, but I can't understand how holding that viewpoint can ever square with your vote to leave. Surely you wanted........ some change from the EU ?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,884

    Aslan said:

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    This is ridiculous. If alignment has to happen then it needs to be alignment between both sides, not the one side following the other side's rules. What needs to happen is that the UK and the EU both accept that each other will have high product standards even if they slightly differ in the detail. They allow for each others products to have full equivalency in the island of Ireland and are not to be sold commercially in GB or mainland EU. A tiny amount of products will circulate beyond Ireland through informal mechanisms but it won't have a meaningful impact and is less important than the peace process.
    You miss the point. I am parking all of the bullshit and looking at practicalities. We are not talking about one side following the other side's rules. Our rules are their rules are our rules. We just need to drop the "sovrinty" spin and recognise this.

    As and when there is a divergence issue in the future an arbitration process can fix them so that both parties are happy. This is the same as with any trade deal with anyone.

    "If alignment has to happen" - we are already aligned!
    We've already started diverging actually, see the plans to criminalise the import of foie gros and divergence will continue for years to come.

    But you know that. Just because you start at the same starting point doesn't mean you'll remain aligned if you head off in other directions.
    Are we criminalising the import of foie gras?

    Blimey that will assuage the Red Wall.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,754
    The three last general elections have been hard to predict. With sight of the 2017 exit poll 30mins before release, you could see the whole Internet predicting a big Tory majority. It was hard to button my lips. Even after polls closed there was debate as reality slowly sunk in.

    The point if there is no accurate consensus of an election result on the night, it is unlikely there will be one years out.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,158
    When I returned to my car this morning, a couple were struggling to assemble a pram and all their gear, in the way only new parents do. As I drunk some water, they gingerly got a new-born baby out of their car seat.

    I did the usual amount of clucking and ahhing over the baby, which turned out to be a week old, and born at Hinchinbrooke Hospital. The couple were Americans, from Virginia, and had decided to have a baby over here, partly because the NHS is so good.

    I often bash the NHS - and sometimes even with good cause. However it's right to remember that it often gets things very, very right. :)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,884

    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nico679 said:

    The suspicion is the UK government will only accept an agreement that renders the protocol so ineffective that the EU could never agree to it. Unionists want effectively no consequences of Brexit and will only stop moaning if they get everything they want .

    Why can you not accept the EU has buckled under pressure and yes, Frost is right to seek his objectives

    Why are EU supporters blind to the adverse actions of UVDL and others or do they look on the EU as some omnipotent presence
    Because we have a European identity and fucking despise the simple minded nationalism and retrogressive world view that Brexit represents. Leavers are never going to come to terms with their victory until they understand that.
    For such a firebrand lefty your dismal bending over for the EU is quite disappointing, Dura. Workers of the EU unite, you have nothing to fear but exploitation by UK and German companies who want to make a quick buck.
    Some of us voted to leave the EU's capitalist hegemony, and open up the possibility (however slim) of creating a truly Socialist Republic here in the UK.

    And more to the point, the weather is gorgeous today. And I've been to Greggs for my dinner.
    Amazing. What won the 4.55 at Ayr?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,944
    MaxPB said:

    Fishing said:

    Brussels has knocked back French demands to hit the UK with tariffs and cut off British access to EU energy supplies in the row over post-Brexit fishing rights.

    Other EU capitals told Paris to dial down the rhetoric until a full investigation into the dispute was carried out, it has emerged.

    A senior EU diplomat said: “Once again France is instrumentalising the EU for national interests.”


    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/brussels-tells-paris-back-down-095812046.html

    The EU doesn't understand that that's the whole point of the EU, at least according to the French.
    Given that the French are coming to the realisation that it isn't, how much more likely does Frexit become? They've already got the sovereignists among their senior political ranks like Barnier calling for repatriation of sovereignty and judicial independence from the ECJ. If the EU no longer bends to France's will on foreign policy and instead follows the German lead it won't be long until France wants out. It has always had a redline of being in charge of its own destiny, being tied to Germany's agenda will be a long term gain for the Frexit argument.
    Given how much bile is expressed at France and the French on here, maybe if Frexit happened Brexiteers would be happy to rejoin the EU? :)
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 569

    nico679 said:

    No compromise from the EU will be enough and that’s been the concern in Brussels . You have to have the border somewhere and I expect no 10 will rubbish any proposals from the EU even if they show compromise . No 10 wants a continual war of words with the EU which it can ratchet up when it needs to deflect from its problems at home . I expect come the next election this will go into overdrive . Bozo needs his coalition of Leavers and so will need to throw some red meat to them.

    The compromise is to not put the border anywhere. Or to reciprocally put it around the whole island of Ireland.

    "All goods legal in either the UK or the EU are legal on the island of Ireland. Any firms transferring goods from the island of Ireland to either GB or the rest of the EU that are not legal there could be liable for prosecution." There, new Protocol, done and dusted.

    If that means the UK legalising hormone treated beef, or chlorinated chicken, and that ends up in Belfast and Dublin then so be it.
    That wouldn’t work as effectively you’re putting Ireland out of the single market and any changes to the protocol need the consent of the 27 member states . Ireland will not agree to this , politically it would finish off the current government . Legally also you can’t have one member state with different single market rules , the CTA predates EU membership and was agreed that it would remain pre-accession .
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,189
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nico679 said:

    The suspicion is the UK government will only accept an agreement that renders the protocol so ineffective that the EU could never agree to it. Unionists want effectively no consequences of Brexit and will only stop moaning if they get everything they want .

    Why can you not accept the EU has buckled under pressure and yes, Frost is right to seek his objectives

    Why are EU supporters blind to the adverse actions of UVDL and others or do they look on the EU as some omnipotent presence
    Because we have a European identity and fucking despise the simple minded nationalism and retrogressive world view that Brexit represents. Leavers are never going to come to terms with their victory until they understand that.
    For such a firebrand lefty your dismal bending over for the EU is quite disappointing, Dura. Workers of the EU unite, you have nothing to fear but exploitation by UK and German companies who want to make a quick buck.
    Some of us voted to leave the EU's capitalist hegemony, and open up the possibility (however slim) of creating a truly Socialist Republic here in the UK.

    And more to the point, the weather is gorgeous today. And I've been to Greggs for my dinner.
    Amazing. What won the 4.55 at Ayr?
    If he told you that, it might Embolden you to make your own bet.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 13,995

    Aslan said:

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    This is ridiculous. If alignment has to happen then it needs to be alignment between both sides, not the one side following the other side's rules. What needs to happen is that the UK and the EU both accept that each other will have high product standards even if they slightly differ in the detail. They allow for each others products to have full equivalency in the island of Ireland and are not to be sold commercially in GB or mainland EU. A tiny amount of products will circulate beyond Ireland through informal mechanisms but it won't have a meaningful impact and is less important than the peace process.
    You miss the point. I am parking all of the bullshit and looking at practicalities. We are not talking about one side following the other side's rules. Our rules are their rules are our rules. We just need to drop the "sovrinty" spin and recognise this.

    As and when there is a divergence issue in the future an arbitration process can fix them so that both parties are happy. This is the same as with any trade deal with anyone.

    "If alignment has to happen" - we are already aligned!
    So you voted for Brexit because you thought us having a say in the EU was too much trouble even though you were quite happy to follow its rules?
    Yes. My view was that we were not and never going to agree to the political project of a single currency and a single army etc. So we either choose when to move to the outer ring of the "twin track" Europe, or they get to decide.

    When you sat "Follow its rules" you reveal that you have the mentality of a small child. When you agree a trade deal you agree to follow the rules of that deal. Jaguar has to make cars for the American market that follow its rules. It has no say in those rules. Same for Chinese purveyors of spyware smartphones selling into the EEA.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    edited October 7
    “ Industries offering high wages to attract an ever twindling supply of people qualified to fill vacancies is not wage growth it's a labour shortage”

    Increase wages without increased prices? Seriously? this is a people issue not a low wage issue, and you start chasing that limited pool of people with extra wage, there’s only one place prices are going to permanently go. That’s the big idea at the heart of this government? It’s economic insanity. To raise prices to raise wages doesn’t make anyone better off, this actually leads to losers in extreme hardship.

    And council tax up15% in three years on top of everything else - the government has got to stop councils doing this, governments got to put a foot down and cap them, get them to close down Tree Hugging Liaison Committee or stop funding new giant statues instead of this council tax hike. Disgraceful government if it doesn’t act on this.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,318
    Fishing said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Miliband was beating Cameron on Both Net Satisfaction & Gross Positives, whilst Labour led on VI mid term. The Tories went from coalition partners to outright majority at the following GE.

    And PB said NOM was buying money at odds on

    Dark Blue Cam GP lead
    Light Blue Cam Net Sat lead
    Red Con VI lead


    Mid term means jack- shit if Johnson loses control of the economy over the next two years, which seems highly plausible to me.
    If, maybes, black swans, & "this time it will be different" is all the haters have

    The haters outnumber the lovers, don't they?

    They're just louder because they haven't got their own way for once
    Haha. Boris haters are mostly Labour supporters, who haven't won an election in 16 years. We are more than accustomed to not getting our own way, believe me!

    Boris hatred seems to be most prevalent among younger demographics. The idea that they have had their way on anything much over recent years is for the fairies.

    By contrast, he is most popular among older demographics who have pretty much done best out of the last decade.
    Boris haters is just a colourful term for people with their head screwed on.
    Hate in politics should be reserved for people like Hitler or Saddam Hussein.

    It has no place in a democracy.
    I agree - unless the politician in question deals in it as stock in trade, eg Donald Trump.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,189
    edited October 7
    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    No compromise from the EU will be enough and that’s been the concern in Brussels . You have to have the border somewhere and I expect no 10 will rubbish any proposals from the EU even if they show compromise . No 10 wants a continual war of words with the EU which it can ratchet up when it needs to deflect from its problems at home . I expect come the next election this will go into overdrive . Bozo needs his coalition of Leavers and so will need to throw some red meat to them.

    The compromise is to not put the border anywhere. Or to reciprocally put it around the whole island of Ireland.

    "All goods legal in either the UK or the EU are legal on the island of Ireland. Any firms transferring goods from the island of Ireland to either GB or the rest of the EU that are not legal there could be liable for prosecution." There, new Protocol, done and dusted.

    If that means the UK legalising hormone treated beef, or chlorinated chicken, and that ends up in Belfast and Dublin then so be it.
    That wouldn’t work as effectively you’re putting Ireland out of the single market and any changes to the protocol need the consent of the 27 member states . Ireland will not agree to this , politically it would finish off the current government . Legally also you can’t have one member state with different single market rules , the CTA predates EU membership and was agreed that it would remain pre-accession .
    OK then the UK invokes Article 16 and pulls NI back into regulatory and customs alignment with the UK.

    What do you do if you're the EU? Put up a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland? Ireland won't agree to this.
    Or simply accept the glaring hole in the border and that there's no integrity anymore? In which case what's to stop hypothetically legal chlorinated chicken from Belfast ending up in Dublin afterall?

    By agreeing that the island of Ireland is unique and an exemption to the normal rules, you can put a legalese mask on the fact you have no other solution.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,971
    I’ll be suspending judgement until I see what precisely the EU is bringing forward to the NI protocol.

    It could be something entirely cosmetic dressed up as a significant change to “show its flexibility” in the hope the UK then loses the PR war.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 13,995
    Pulpstar said:

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    I get that you feel Brexit has been handled so poorly as not to be worth it, but I can't understand how holding that viewpoint can ever square with your vote to leave. Surely you wanted........ some change from the EU ?
    As I have just answered William, we were not in Schengen, the Euro, disagreed with the army, future expansion etc. The political project was not something we could sustain.

    But there's a big difference from not wanting the political union to not wanting a trading union either. I didn't vote to leave the EEA. I was never asked. Which just makes the point that you cannot say "remainer" and "leaver" as if everyone voting was for one unified reason and viewpoint or the other.

    It is categorically the case that I voted to leave the EU and not the things not on the ballot like the EEA. Its categorically the case that some voted to stop migration and hopefully send dark people home - as they have been telling anyone who listens. That doesn't make me a racist moron nor them a free trade advocate.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,681
    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Miliband was beating Cameron on Both Net Satisfaction & Gross Positives, whilst Labour led on VI mid term. The Tories went from coalition partners to outright majority at the following GE.

    And PB said NOM was buying money at odds on

    Dark Blue Cam GP lead
    Light Blue Cam Net Sat lead
    Red Con VI lead


    Mid term means jack- shit if Johnson loses control of the economy over the next two years, which seems highly plausible to me.
    If, maybes, black swans, & "this time it will be different" is all the haters have

    The haters outnumber the lovers, don't they?

    They're just louder because they haven't got their own way for once
    Haha. Boris haters are mostly Labour supporters, who haven't won an election in 16 years. We are more than accustomed to not getting our own way, believe me!

    Boris hatred seems to be most prevalent among younger demographics. The idea that they have had their way on anything much over recent years is for the fairies.

    By contrast, he is most popular among older demographics who have pretty much done best out of the last decade.
    Boris haters is just a colourful term for people with their head screwed on.
    Hate in politics should be reserved for people like Hitler or Saddam Hussein.

    It has no place in a democracy.
    I agree - unless the politician in question deals in it as stock in trade, eg Donald Trump.
    How far down the line do you want to go with that? How about Priti Patel? Seen a fair few posters of her imposes on Goering’s uniform. What about BJ?

    There are truly rulers who are evil who deserve hate. But you seem to be extending that line.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,441
    Jonathan said:

    The three last general elections have been hard to predict. With sight of the 2017 exit poll 30mins before release, you could see the whole Internet predicting a big Tory majority. It was hard to button my lips. Even after polls closed there was debate as reality slowly sunk in.

    The point if there is no accurate consensus of an election result on the night, it is unlikely there will be one years out.

    So all long term betting is pointless, despite it being the thing bookies dont like taking bets on, because it is not that profitable for them?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,748

    Aslan said:

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    This is ridiculous. If alignment has to happen then it needs to be alignment between both sides, not the one side following the other side's rules. What needs to happen is that the UK and the EU both accept that each other will have high product standards even if they slightly differ in the detail. They allow for each others products to have full equivalency in the island of Ireland and are not to be sold commercially in GB or mainland EU. A tiny amount of products will circulate beyond Ireland through informal mechanisms but it won't have a meaningful impact and is less important than the peace process.
    You miss the point. I am parking all of the bullshit and looking at practicalities. We are not talking about one side following the other side's rules. Our rules are their rules are our rules. We just need to drop the "sovrinty" spin and recognise this.

    As and when there is a divergence issue in the future an arbitration process can fix them so that both parties are happy. This is the same as with any trade deal with anyone.

    "If alignment has to happen" - we are already aligned!
    So you voted for Brexit because you thought us having a say in the EU was too much trouble even though you were quite happy to follow its rules?
    Yes. My view was that we were not and never going to agree to the political project of a single currency and a single army etc. So we either choose when to move to the outer ring of the "twin track" Europe, or they get to decide.

    When you sat "Follow its rules" you reveal that you have the mentality of a small child. When you agree a trade deal you agree to follow the rules of that deal. Jaguar has to make cars for the American market that follow its rules. It has no say in those rules. Same for Chinese purveyors of spyware smartphones selling into the EEA.
    We had a permanent opt out from the Euro.

    You think that at some point in the future, they would have kicked us out of the European Parliament and Council and said, "From now on, you get no votes on single market legislation"?
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,714

    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nico679 said:

    The suspicion is the UK government will only accept an agreement that renders the protocol so ineffective that the EU could never agree to it. Unionists want effectively no consequences of Brexit and will only stop moaning if they get everything they want .

    Why can you not accept the EU has buckled under pressure and yes, Frost is right to seek his objectives

    Why are EU supporters blind to the adverse actions of UVDL and others or do they look on the EU as some omnipotent presence
    Because we have a European identity and fucking despise the simple minded nationalism and retrogressive world view that Brexit represents. Leavers are never going to come to terms with their victory until they understand that.
    For such a firebrand lefty your dismal bending over for the EU is quite disappointing, Dura. Workers of the EU unite, you have nothing to fear but exploitation by UK and German companies who want to make a quick buck.
    Some of us voted to leave the EU's capitalist hegemony, and open up the possibility (however slim) of creating a truly Socialist Republic here in the UK.

    And more to the point, the weather is gorgeous today. And I've been to Greggs for my dinner.
    Don't you mean Greggski's?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,009

    When I returned to my car this morning, a couple were struggling to assemble a pram and all their gear, in the way only new parents do. As I drunk some water, they gingerly got a new-born baby out of their car seat.

    I did the usual amount of clucking and ahhing over the baby, which turned out to be a week old, and born at Hinchinbrooke Hospital. The couple were Americans, from Virginia, and had decided to have a baby over here, partly because the NHS is so good.

    I often bash the NHS - and sometimes even with good cause. However it's right to remember that it often gets things very, very right. :)

    The NHS seems to do well when dealing with immediate problems/issues - having a baby, turning up at A&E after an accident.

    Longer term stuff seems to get lost in the tangle, all too often....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,971
    Dura_Ace said:

    nico679 said:

    The suspicion is the UK government will only accept an agreement that renders the protocol so ineffective that the EU could never agree to it. Unionists want effectively no consequences of Brexit and will only stop moaning if they get everything they want .

    Why can you not accept the EU has buckled under pressure and yes, Frost is right to seek his objectives

    Why are EU supporters blind to the adverse actions of UVDL and others or do they look on the EU as some omnipotent presence
    Because we have a European identity and fucking despise the simple minded nationalism and retrogressive world view that Brexit represents. Leavers are never going to come to terms with their victory until they understand that.
    I don’t think many of you do have a European identity.

    You have an anti English right-winger identity and just see it as a useful crux around which to unite to oppose and annoy them.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 13,995

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    No compromise from the EU will be enough and that’s been the concern in Brussels . You have to have the border somewhere and I expect no 10 will rubbish any proposals from the EU even if they show compromise . No 10 wants a continual war of words with the EU which it can ratchet up when it needs to deflect from its problems at home . I expect come the next election this will go into overdrive . Bozo needs his coalition of Leavers and so will need to throw some red meat to them.

    The compromise is to not put the border anywhere. Or to reciprocally put it around the whole island of Ireland.

    "All goods legal in either the UK or the EU are legal on the island of Ireland. Any firms transferring goods from the island of Ireland to either GB or the rest of the EU that are not legal there could be liable for prosecution." There, new Protocol, done and dusted.

    If that means the UK legalising hormone treated beef, or chlorinated chicken, and that ends up in Belfast and Dublin then so be it.
    That wouldn’t work as effectively you’re putting Ireland out of the single market and any changes to the protocol need the consent of the 27 member states . Ireland will not agree to this , politically it would finish off the current government . Legally also you can’t have one member state with different single market rules , the CTA predates EU membership and was agreed that it would remain pre-accession .
    OK then the UK invokes Article 16 and pulls NI back into regulatory and customs alignment with the UK.

    What do you do if you're the EU? Put up a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland? Ireland won't agree to this.
    Or simply accept the glaring hole in the border and that there's no integrity anymore? In which case what's to stop hypothetically legal chlorinated chicken from Belfast ending up in Dublin afterall?

    By agreeing that the island of Ireland is unique and an exemption to the normal rules, you can put a legalese mask on the fact you have no other solution.
    What chlorinated chicken? As (a) we've said we won't accept manky American food standards in a trade deal and (b) America isn't giving us a trade deal there will be no chlorine-washed chicken or maggot-infested rice to look forward to.

    You are right in that we don't need a border. Because we are both aligned and we're unlikely to ever become sufficiently unaligned for there to be a problem bigger than an A16 arbitration process can't solve.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,681
    With regards to the argument, higher wages automatically means higher prices, that is not necessarily true. Companies can also choose to absorb them and see a reduction in margins. Company operating margins have been rising over time and corporates have also benefited from lower corporate tax rates. There is a case for arguing they should now share some of the burden when it comes to society.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,806
    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Miliband was beating Cameron on Both Net Satisfaction & Gross Positives, whilst Labour led on VI mid term. The Tories went from coalition partners to outright majority at the following GE.

    And PB said NOM was buying money at odds on

    Dark Blue Cam GP lead
    Light Blue Cam Net Sat lead
    Red Con VI lead


    Mid term means jack- shit if Johnson loses control of the economy over the next two years, which seems highly plausible to me.
    If, maybes, black swans, & "this time it will be different" is all the haters have

    The haters outnumber the lovers, don't they?

    They're just louder because they haven't got their own way for once
    Haha. Boris haters are mostly Labour supporters, who haven't won an election in 16 years. We are more than accustomed to not getting our own way, believe me!

    Boris hatred seems to be most prevalent among younger demographics. The idea that they have had their way on anything much over recent years is for the fairies.

    By contrast, he is most popular among older demographics who have pretty much done best out of the last decade.
    Boris haters is just a colourful term for people with their head screwed on.
    Hate in politics should be reserved for people like Hitler or Saddam Hussein.

    It has no place in a democracy.
    I agree - unless the politician in question deals in it as stock in trade, eg Donald Trump.
    I was kinda hoping the Dems would find someone called Hope (first or surname) to run against Trump, with the slogan 'Hope, not hate' :wink:

    Talking of which, do you realise there is no Hope in the House of Commons? The nearest we've got is Chope and - for me - he's not a vision of hope :disappointed: The House of Lords, however, is not Hopeless :smile:
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,022
    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Miliband was beating Cameron on Both Net Satisfaction & Gross Positives, whilst Labour led on VI mid term. The Tories went from coalition partners to outright majority at the following GE.

    And PB said NOM was buying money at odds on

    Dark Blue Cam GP lead
    Light Blue Cam Net Sat lead
    Red Con VI lead


    Mid term means jack- shit if Johnson loses control of the economy over the next two years, which seems highly plausible to me.
    If, maybes, black swans, & "this time it will be different" is all the haters have

    The haters outnumber the lovers, don't they?

    They're just louder because they haven't got their own way for once
    Haha. Boris haters are mostly Labour supporters, who haven't won an election in 16 years. We are more than accustomed to not getting our own way, believe me!

    Boris hatred seems to be most prevalent among younger demographics. The idea that they have had their way on anything much over recent years is for the fairies.

    By contrast, he is most popular among older demographics who have pretty much done best out of the last decade.
    Boris haters is just a colourful term for people with their head screwed on.
    Hate in politics should be reserved for people like Hitler or Saddam Hussein.

    It has no place in a democracy.
    I agree - unless the politician in question deals in it as stock in trade, eg Donald Trump.
    How far down the line do you want to go with that? How about Priti Patel? Seen a fair few posters of her imposes on Goering’s uniform. What about BJ?

    There are truly rulers who are evil who deserve hate. But you seem to be extending that line.
    Yes, it is obvious that some people just hate others they don't agree with. Hate is a destructive emotion to those that hate, even more than to those they hate.

    And, more importantly people in a democracy have a remedy against leaders they don't agree with which isn't available to people in a dictatorship.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 603

    When I returned to my car this morning, a couple were struggling to assemble a pram and all their gear, in the way only new parents do. As I drunk some water, they gingerly got a new-born baby out of their car seat.

    I did the usual amount of clucking and ahhing over the baby, which turned out to be a week old, and born at Hinchinbrooke Hospital. The couple were Americans, from Virginia, and had decided to have a baby over here, partly because the NHS is so good.

    I often bash the NHS - and sometimes even with good cause. However it's right to remember that it often gets things very, very right. :)

    Their child will never be President of the USA now.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,318
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Miliband was beating Cameron on Both Net Satisfaction & Gross Positives, whilst Labour led on VI mid term. The Tories went from coalition partners to outright majority at the following GE.

    And PB said NOM was buying money at odds on

    Dark Blue Cam GP lead
    Light Blue Cam Net Sat lead
    Red Con VI lead


    Mid term means jack- shit if Johnson loses control of the economy over the next two years, which seems highly plausible to me.
    If, maybes, black swans, & "this time it will be different" is all the haters have

    The haters outnumber the lovers, don't they?

    They're just louder because they haven't got their own way for once
    Haha. Boris haters are mostly Labour supporters, who haven't won an election in 16 years. We are more than accustomed to not getting our own way, believe me!

    Boris hatred seems to be most prevalent among younger demographics. The idea that they have had their way on anything much over recent years is for the fairies.

    By contrast, he is most popular among older demographics who have pretty much done best out of the last decade.
    Boris haters is just a colourful term for people with their head screwed on.
    It's a range. Identifying those for whom it hall all gone a bit too far is a bit like pornography - hard to define, but you know it when you see it.
    Yes. Good comparison. And I owe you an answer from before on why class entitlement and its mirror, deference, is key to understanding why Johnson consistently away with metaphorical murder. Haven't forgotten that. I forget nothing. Nothing.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,009

    TOPPING said:

    Anecdote of the day.

    My RAC membership. Was coming due next week. Renewal was around £240 wtf! Called a couple of weeks ago - this is crazy, too much, etc. OK We'll give it to you for £160. That's better.

    Call yesterday from them - what now? Just wondered if you wanted to renew at £130. Er, yes pls.

    No probs, terms and conditions, blah, blah, agent may be compensated for this sale, blah, blah.

    The RAC has gone all Glengarry Glen Ross.

    Probably because they have a "50% off" sale on their website now, for which they had to ramp up the price beforehand.

    More DFS than anything...
    More and more businesses are like the old days of the electronics shops on Tottenham Court road. The price on the sticker is Having A Giraffe. After about half an hour of chit-chat, and some sucking of teeth, the final price is produced.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,743

    Pulpstar said:

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    I get that you feel Brexit has been handled so poorly as not to be worth it, but I can't understand how holding that viewpoint can ever square with your vote to leave. Surely you wanted........ some change from the EU ?
    As I have just answered William, we were not in Schengen, the Euro, disagreed with the army, future expansion etc. The political project was not something we could sustain.

    But there's a big difference from not wanting the political union to not wanting a trading union either. I didn't vote to leave the EEA. I was never asked. Which just makes the point that you cannot say "remainer" and "leaver" as if everyone voting was for one unified reason and viewpoint or the other.

    It is categorically the case that I voted to leave the EU and not the things not on the ballot like the EEA. Its categorically the case that some voted to stop migration and hopefully send dark people home - as they have been telling anyone who listens. That doesn't make me a racist moron nor them a free trade advocate.
    The problem is that EEA membership does include Freedom of Movement, and that was clearly a no-no for Boris for reasons that should now be obvious...
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    Aslan said:

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    This is ridiculous. If alignment has to happen then it needs to be alignment between both sides, not the one side following the other side's rules. What needs to happen is that the UK and the EU both accept that each other will have high product standards even if they slightly differ in the detail. They allow for each others products to have full equivalency in the island of Ireland and are not to be sold commercially in GB or mainland EU. A tiny amount of products will circulate beyond Ireland through informal mechanisms but it won't have a meaningful impact and is less important than the peace process.
    You miss the point. I am parking all of the bullshit and looking at practicalities. We are not talking about one side following the other side's rules. Our rules are their rules are our rules. We just need to drop the "sovrinty" spin and recognise this.

    As and when there is a divergence issue in the future an arbitration process can fix them so that both parties are happy. This is the same as with any trade deal with anyone.

    "If alignment has to happen" - we are already aligned!
    We've already started diverging actually, see the plans to criminalise the import of foie gros and divergence will continue for years to come.

    But you know that. Just because you start at the same starting point doesn't mean you'll remain aligned if you head off in other directions.
    Wow. Nobody is going to torpedo a deal over Foie Gras. Incidentally the UK has not banned its import and the European Parliament has instructed the commission to start work on its own ban. So we are currently aligned and we are both going in the same direction on Foie Gras.

    Any deal will have fuzz around the edges. That is what arbitration is for if required. As it will be with our Australian deal as and when that eventually takes effect in 2035.
    So your solution to the NI situation is to abolish the Protocol and replace it with arbitration if the UK and EU diverge far? So NI would be fully in the UK and the UK including NI would be free to diverge from the EU?

    Depending upon the details I could live with that.
    It’s possible the government were in a much better place calling for a negotiation rather than having one. This is unacceptable something must be done can be a better place than, here’s the new agreement?
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 1,003

    Just in case anyone missed it (perish the thought) any options for a legal route to IndyRef2 without Westminster approval have been well and truly quashed by the Supreme Court. ScotGov tried their luck with a bill which transgressed into Westminster territory, which was obviously designed as a test of the system.

    "The judgement by Lord Reed, one of Scotland’s most eminent judges, is unrelenting in its criticism of the Scottish Government approach.”

    Lord Reed is the senior judge on the Court. He was not amused.

    Details here: https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-accused-of-playing-nationalist-games-amid-supreme-court-defeat-over-childrens-rights-3409047

    There is a glaring loophole that means that a referendum might be lawful and consistent with this judgment though. Miller is why I think the SNP could win in SCOTUK the right to hold a referendum.
    Don't think the SNP share your confidence judging by their comportment following the judgement. The fizz is going out of this whole issue. Nicola just going through the motions now.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 17,505
    SKS fans please explain

    CON: 39% (-)
    LAB: 31% (-)
    LDEM: 9% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)
    REFUK: 4% (-)

    via
    @YouGov
    , 05 - 06 Oct
    Chgs. w/ 29 Sep
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,526
    Dura_Ace said:

    nico679 said:

    The suspicion is the UK government will only accept an agreement that renders the protocol so ineffective that the EU could never agree to it. Unionists want effectively no consequences of Brexit and will only stop moaning if they get everything they want .

    Why can you not accept the EU has buckled under pressure and yes, Frost is right to seek his objectives

    Why are EU supporters blind to the adverse actions of UVDL and others or do they look on the EU as some omnipotent presence
    Because we have a European identity and fucking despise the simple minded nationalism and retrogressive world view that Brexit represents. Leavers are never going to come to terms with their victory until they understand that.
    You don't have a European identity. A European Identity is supposed to be a civilised Identity apparently and you are a long fucking way from civilised.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,189
    gealbhan said:

    Aslan said:

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    This is ridiculous. If alignment has to happen then it needs to be alignment between both sides, not the one side following the other side's rules. What needs to happen is that the UK and the EU both accept that each other will have high product standards even if they slightly differ in the detail. They allow for each others products to have full equivalency in the island of Ireland and are not to be sold commercially in GB or mainland EU. A tiny amount of products will circulate beyond Ireland through informal mechanisms but it won't have a meaningful impact and is less important than the peace process.
    You miss the point. I am parking all of the bullshit and looking at practicalities. We are not talking about one side following the other side's rules. Our rules are their rules are our rules. We just need to drop the "sovrinty" spin and recognise this.

    As and when there is a divergence issue in the future an arbitration process can fix them so that both parties are happy. This is the same as with any trade deal with anyone.

    "If alignment has to happen" - we are already aligned!
    We've already started diverging actually, see the plans to criminalise the import of foie gros and divergence will continue for years to come.

    But you know that. Just because you start at the same starting point doesn't mean you'll remain aligned if you head off in other directions.
    Wow. Nobody is going to torpedo a deal over Foie Gras. Incidentally the UK has not banned its import and the European Parliament has instructed the commission to start work on its own ban. So we are currently aligned and we are both going in the same direction on Foie Gras.

    Any deal will have fuzz around the edges. That is what arbitration is for if required. As it will be with our Australian deal as and when that eventually takes effect in 2035.
    So your solution to the NI situation is to abolish the Protocol and replace it with arbitration if the UK and EU diverge far? So NI would be fully in the UK and the UK including NI would be free to diverge from the EU?

    Depending upon the details I could live with that.
    It’s possible the government were in a much better place calling for a negotiation rather than having one. This is unacceptable something must be done can be a better place than, here’s the new agreement?
    The problem the EU has is the UK holds all the cards.

    If we invoke Article 16 then we can dictate what the new rules are for NI, since NI is legally still a part of the UK, and that's the end of it. They can "retaliate", or they can build a border (but won't) but they have no say and can't force us to back down.

    So we can and should go for maximalist demands. Sucks to be EU.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,402

    When I returned to my car this morning, a couple were struggling to assemble a pram and all their gear, in the way only new parents do. As I drunk some water, they gingerly got a new-born baby out of their car seat.

    I did the usual amount of clucking and ahhing over the baby, which turned out to be a week old, and born at Hinchinbrooke Hospital. The couple were Americans, from Virginia, and had decided to have a baby over here, partly because the NHS is so good.

    I often bash the NHS - and sometimes even with good cause. However it's right to remember that it often gets things very, very right. :)

    It's cracking value if you're a US citizen too

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/18/nhs-fees-maternity-care-putting-migrant-mothers-at-risk

    The normal NHS tariff for the cost to the taxpayer of antenatal care is £1,590 to £4,233. A straightforward birth with the shortest possible stay in hospital will cost around £3,282. Postnatal care can cost up to £1,207.50. Those deemed ineligible for NHS maternity care, however, pay themselves and are subject to a 50% surcharge on the usual cost.

    https://www.ajmc.com/view/how-much-does-it-cost-to-give-birth-in-the-united-states-it-depends-on-the-state

    “Among our 2016 and 2017 pooled sample of people with employer-sponsored insurance, average spending per vaginal birth nationally was $12,235."
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,526
    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    I get that you feel Brexit has been handled so poorly as not to be worth it, but I can't understand how holding that viewpoint can ever square with your vote to leave. Surely you wanted........ some change from the EU ?
    As I have just answered William, we were not in Schengen, the Euro, disagreed with the army, future expansion etc. The political project was not something we could sustain.

    But there's a big difference from not wanting the political union to not wanting a trading union either. I didn't vote to leave the EEA. I was never asked. Which just makes the point that you cannot say "remainer" and "leaver" as if everyone voting was for one unified reason and viewpoint or the other.

    It is categorically the case that I voted to leave the EU and not the things not on the ballot like the EEA. Its categorically the case that some voted to stop migration and hopefully send dark people home - as they have been telling anyone who listens. That doesn't make me a racist moron nor them a free trade advocate.
    The problem is that EEA membership does include Freedom of Movement, and that was clearly a no-no for Boris for reasons that should now be obvious...
    It may have been a no-no for Johnson but it was probably overall a yes from the majority of the UK electorate.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,441
    Blurred Lines/Rape Me mash up. @Cyclefree might find it interesting. Quite a clever idea

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7ZDbBsjMt8
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 13,995

    Aslan said:

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    This is ridiculous. If alignment has to happen then it needs to be alignment between both sides, not the one side following the other side's rules. What needs to happen is that the UK and the EU both accept that each other will have high product standards even if they slightly differ in the detail. They allow for each others products to have full equivalency in the island of Ireland and are not to be sold commercially in GB or mainland EU. A tiny amount of products will circulate beyond Ireland through informal mechanisms but it won't have a meaningful impact and is less important than the peace process.
    You miss the point. I am parking all of the bullshit and looking at practicalities. We are not talking about one side following the other side's rules. Our rules are their rules are our rules. We just need to drop the "sovrinty" spin and recognise this.

    As and when there is a divergence issue in the future an arbitration process can fix them so that both parties are happy. This is the same as with any trade deal with anyone.

    "If alignment has to happen" - we are already aligned!
    So you voted for Brexit because you thought us having a say in the EU was too much trouble even though you were quite happy to follow its rules?
    Yes. My view was that we were not and never going to agree to the political project of a single currency and a single army etc. So we either choose when to move to the outer ring of the "twin track" Europe, or they get to decide.

    When you sat "Follow its rules" you reveal that you have the mentality of a small child. When you agree a trade deal you agree to follow the rules of that deal. Jaguar has to make cars for the American market that follow its rules. It has no say in those rules. Same for Chinese purveyors of spyware smartphones selling into the EEA.
    We had a permanent opt out from the Euro.

    You think that at some point in the future, they would have kicked us out of the European Parliament and Council and said, "From now on, you get no votes on single market legislation"?
    I'm confused. According to many Brexiteers part of the reason we had to leave was that the Parliament was undemocratic, that they bullied us etc etc. To read what you posted its as if it was democratic after all and we had a significant say in its affairs.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,971
    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    No compromise from the EU will be enough and that’s been the concern in Brussels . You have to have the border somewhere and I expect no 10 will rubbish any proposals from the EU even if they show compromise . No 10 wants a continual war of words with the EU which it can ratchet up when it needs to deflect from its problems at home . I expect come the next election this will go into overdrive . Bozo needs his coalition of Leavers and so will need to throw some red meat to them.

    The compromise is to not put the border anywhere. Or to reciprocally put it around the whole island of Ireland.

    "All goods legal in either the UK or the EU are legal on the island of Ireland. Any firms transferring goods from the island of Ireland to either GB or the rest of the EU that are not legal there could be liable for prosecution." There, new Protocol, done and dusted.

    If that means the UK legalising hormone treated beef, or chlorinated chicken, and that ends up in Belfast and Dublin then so be it.
    That wouldn’t work as effectively you’re putting Ireland out of the single market and any changes to the protocol need the consent of the 27 member states . Ireland will not agree to this , politically it would finish off the current government . Legally also you can’t have one member state with different single market rules , the CTA predates EU membership and was agreed that it would remain pre-accession .
    Strictly speaking, Ireland already follows the UK (to the detriment of full integration with the rest of the EU) because it prioritises that over a full single market.

    For example, the CTA means it cannot join Schengen unless the UK also chooses to do so, and it hasn’t so it won’t.

    There may be other adaptations that also make sense on a British Isles basis for some essential goods and agricultural produce - it all depends on the balance of interests.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,009
    Aslan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nico679 said:

    The suspicion is the UK government will only accept an agreement that renders the protocol so ineffective that the EU could never agree to it. Unionists want effectively no consequences of Brexit and will only stop moaning if they get everything they want .

    Why can you not accept the EU has buckled under pressure and yes, Frost is right to seek his objectives

    Why are EU supporters blind to the adverse actions of UVDL and others or do they look on the EU as some omnipotent presence
    Because we have a European identity and fucking despise the simple minded nationalism and retrogressive world view that Brexit represents. Leavers are never going to come to terms with their victory until they understand that.
    It is pretty clear on here that arch Remainers "European identity" is just as much a bloody minded, my-side-right-or-wrong, nationalism as exists for any other country.
    It's another irregular verb

    I am not a nationalist, just perfectly clear sighted.
    You are nationalist
    He is a Nazi

    As ever, I recommend https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/notes-on-nationalism/ for an excellent discussion of nationalism and supra-nationalisms
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 13,995

    SKS fans please explain

    CON: 39% (-)
    LAB: 31% (-)
    LDEM: 9% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)
    REFUK: 4% (-)

    via
    @YouGov
    , 05 - 06 Oct
    Chgs. w/ 29 Sep

    Jezbollah fans please explain how the return to the politics that returned 202 seats would be better.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,884

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nico679 said:

    The suspicion is the UK government will only accept an agreement that renders the protocol so ineffective that the EU could never agree to it. Unionists want effectively no consequences of Brexit and will only stop moaning if they get everything they want .

    Why can you not accept the EU has buckled under pressure and yes, Frost is right to seek his objectives

    Why are EU supporters blind to the adverse actions of UVDL and others or do they look on the EU as some omnipotent presence
    Because we have a European identity and fucking despise the simple minded nationalism and retrogressive world view that Brexit represents. Leavers are never going to come to terms with their victory until they understand that.
    For such a firebrand lefty your dismal bending over for the EU is quite disappointing, Dura. Workers of the EU unite, you have nothing to fear but exploitation by UK and German companies who want to make a quick buck.
    Some of us voted to leave the EU's capitalist hegemony, and open up the possibility (however slim) of creating a truly Socialist Republic here in the UK.

    And more to the point, the weather is gorgeous today. And I've been to Greggs for my dinner.
    Amazing. What won the 4.55 at Ayr?
    If he told you that, it might Embolden you to make your own bet.
    LOL. Just stuck £2 e/w on it to see if we can violate the space time continuum.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    How often have the betting markets been right on major decisions since and including Brexit.???
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 155
    edited October 7
    eek said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    And still the best lay out there.

    The Labour majority or a personal boast?

    I agree on the former. Can't comment on the latter. References needed.
    NOM - there are 2 factors most people miss.

    Farage cost Boris 10 or so seats so his majority should be 100-110 not 80.

    When the boundaries are reorganised there are another 5-10 Tory gains there.

    And it's hard to see how you go from a 120 or so seat majority to NOM..
    I don't know, I think 2019 was an exceptional election and the Tories had an own goal with all the Brexit shenanigans.

    I can't see what seats the Tories can gain that they didn't gain in 2019 apart from a handful of ultra brexit seats like Dagenham and Rainham, Hemsworth and Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford etc.


    Most likely scenario in my view is the Tories ending up with 315-20 seats like May did in 2017 IMO.

    My prediction is something like Lab 35% Con 40/41%.

    It's a stretch to see a Labour led gvt but not necessarily for the Tories to lose their majority.

    I can see 30-40 gains for Labour in spite of Starmer's weaknesses given that Labour gained 30 and 40 respectively in 2017 and 1992.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,148
    AlistairM said:

    When I returned to my car this morning, a couple were struggling to assemble a pram and all their gear, in the way only new parents do. As I drunk some water, they gingerly got a new-born baby out of their car seat.

    I did the usual amount of clucking and ahhing over the baby, which turned out to be a week old, and born at Hinchinbrooke Hospital. The couple were Americans, from Virginia, and had decided to have a baby over here, partly because the NHS is so good.

    I often bash the NHS - and sometimes even with good cause. However it's right to remember that it often gets things very, very right. :)

    Their child will never be President of the USA now.
    Not true, the qualification is simply that you are a US citizen at the moment of birth - which the baby will be, assuming the parents are bona fide US citizens.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,971
    On topic, I’m laying a Tory majority.

    I think an economic shitstorm is coming.

    Signs are already here and will be very obvious in hindsight.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,148

    On topic, I’m laying a Tory majority.

    I think an economic shitstorm is coming.

    Signs are already here and will be very obvious in hindsight.

    I think we are looking at Subprime Crisis 2.0 in China
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 17,505

    SKS fans please explain

    CON: 39% (-)
    LAB: 31% (-)
    LDEM: 9% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)
    REFUK: 4% (-)

    via
    @YouGov
    , 05 - 06 Oct
    Chgs. w/ 29 Sep

    Jezbollah fans please explain how the return to the politics that returned 202 seats would be better.

    SKS fans please explain

    CON: 39% (-)
    LAB: 31% (-)
    LDEM: 9% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)
    REFUK: 4% (-)

    via
    @YouGov
    , 05 - 06 Oct
    Chgs. w/ 29 Sep

    Jezbollah fans please explain how the return to the politics that returned 202 seats would be better.
    RP please explain why you keep harping back and any other leader would be 20% ahead does not seem to be correct
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,944

    I’ll be suspending judgement until I see what precisely the EU is bringing forward to the NI protocol.

    It could be something entirely cosmetic dressed up as a significant change to “show its flexibility” in the hope the UK then loses the PR war.

    I agree - lots of speculation on the content of something unknown, though that is not uncommon on PB.

    I expect to see lots and lots of to-ing and fro-ing on NI in the short and medium term. In the long term, however, there's only one solution to the intractable problem thrown up by Brexit. A united Ireland. Bring it on.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,748

    Aslan said:

    Will be interesting to see where the two sides get to with this renegotiation. Th unsquareable circle is that with the UK GB diverged from EU standards a border must go somewhere. Its also clear that the border can't go between ROI and the EU, or ROI and NI, or NI and GB.

    Happily there is a solution. EU and UK remain entirely aligned. Here is the compromise - the UK drops its demands to be treated as a 3rd country and recognises that it is both aligned and going to stay aligned on the big stuff. And the EU drops its demands for a hard border as the UK GB would be treated as an extension like NI is.

    That way not only do we fix the Norniron FUBAR, we can reinstate the UK as a trading zone and have hassle free access to the EEA markets. Have an agreement not to go wandering away from the existing standards and an arbitration process in case we do.

    This is ridiculous. If alignment has to happen then it needs to be alignment between both sides, not the one side following the other side's rules. What needs to happen is that the UK and the EU both accept that each other will have high product standards even if they slightly differ in the detail. They allow for each others products to have full equivalency in the island of Ireland and are not to be sold commercially in GB or mainland EU. A tiny amount of products will circulate beyond Ireland through informal mechanisms but it won't have a meaningful impact and is less important than the peace process.
    You miss the point. I am parking all of the bullshit and looking at practicalities. We are not talking about one side following the other side's rules. Our rules are their rules are our rules. We just need to drop the "sovrinty" spin and recognise this.

    As and when there is a divergence issue in the future an arbitration process can fix them so that both parties are happy. This is the same as with any trade deal with anyone.

    "If alignment has to happen" - we are already aligned!
    So you voted for Brexit because you thought us having a say in the EU was too much trouble even though you were quite happy to follow its rules?
    Yes. My view was that we were not and never going to agree to the political project of a single currency and a single army etc. So we either choose when to move to the outer ring of the "twin track" Europe, or they get to decide.

    When you sat "Follow its rules" you reveal that you have the mentality of a small child. When you agree a trade deal you agree to follow the rules of that deal. Jaguar has to make cars for the American market that follow its rules. It has no say in those rules. Same for Chinese purveyors of spyware smartphones selling into the EEA.
    We had a permanent opt out from the Euro.

    You think that at some point in the future, they would have kicked us out of the European Parliament and Council and said, "From now on, you get no votes on single market legislation"?
    I'm confused. According to many Brexiteers part of the reason we had to leave was that the Parliament was undemocratic, that they bullied us etc etc. To read what you posted its as if it was democratic after all and we had a significant say in its affairs.
    You're deflecting. I'm not asking about why other people voted for Brexit but about why you did, and because the position you've just outlined makes no sense. If you were happy with the single market, what was the benefit of giving up our position in the institutions?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,189

    Just in case anyone missed it (perish the thought) any options for a legal route to IndyRef2 without Westminster approval have been well and truly quashed by the Supreme Court. ScotGov tried their luck with a bill which transgressed into Westminster territory, which was obviously designed as a test of the system.

    "The judgement by Lord Reed, one of Scotland’s most eminent judges, is unrelenting in its criticism of the Scottish Government approach.”

    Lord Reed is the senior judge on the Court. He was not amused.

    Details here: https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-accused-of-playing-nationalist-games-amid-supreme-court-defeat-over-childrens-rights-3409047

    There is a glaring loophole that means that a referendum might be lawful and consistent with this judgment though. Miller is why I think the SNP could win in SCOTUK the right to hold a referendum.
    Don't think the SNP share your confidence judging by their comportment following the judgement. The fizz is going out of this whole issue. Nicola just going through the motions now.
    I'm not confident, but nor do I think Nicola even wants the referendum anyway. I think she'd prefer to be rejected and stoke a grievance and continue living it up at Bute House than hold a referendum and lose.

    However Miller provides a legal logic for why this could be legal. Logically:

    1. Scotland Act 1998 (as amended) rules out any laws that conflict with reserved matters.
    2. Miller ruled that all referendum are merely advisory.
    3. Miller further ruled that referenda can not override Parliament
    4. An independence referendum can not make Scotland independent as per Miller
    5. It would be up to Parliament to decide how it wants to respond to any referendum
    6. Parliament could even ignore a referendum.
    7. Therefore a referendum does not conflict with reserved matters.
    8. Therefore a referendum is legal.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,884
    Anecdote #2.

    Just been pinged by the friend who found a lump in her breast and, 10 days ago, was referred to the 2-week wait cancer clinic after three sessions with the GP surgery.

    They are so full because of the Covid backlog that the 2-week wait will now be "4-5 weeks". Which we know in the NHS will be 7-8 weeks if she's lucky.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654

    SKS fans please explain

    CON: 39% (-)
    LAB: 31% (-)
    LDEM: 9% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)
    REFUK: 4% (-)

    via
    @YouGov
    , 05 - 06 Oct
    Chgs. w/ 29 Sep

    Jezbollah fans please explain how the return to the politics that returned 202 seats would be better.

    SKS fans please explain

    CON: 39% (-)
    LAB: 31% (-)
    LDEM: 9% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)
    REFUK: 4% (-)

    via
    @YouGov
    , 05 - 06 Oct
    Chgs. w/ 29 Sep

    Jezbollah fans please explain how the return to the politics that returned 202 seats would be better.
    RP please explain why you keep harping back and any other leader would be 20% ahead does not seem to be correct
    Is Starmer suffering from his vagina comments.?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,806

    How often have the betting markets been right on major decisions since and including Brexit.???

    Technically, we need multiple Brexit ref re-runs to find out whether the market was right or wrong :wink:

    (This of course was why some remainers argued for a re-run, to get a better handle on the probability of Brexit)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 17,505
    isam said:

    Blurred Lines/Rape Me mash up. @Cyclefree might find it interesting. Quite a clever idea

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7ZDbBsjMt8

    The real he groped my breasts thing is horrendous

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwT6DZCQi9k
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    MrEd said:

    With regards to the argument, higher wages automatically means higher prices, that is not necessarily true. Companies can also choose to absorb them and see a reduction in margins. Company operating margins have been rising over time and corporates have also benefited from lower corporate tax rates. There is a case for arguing they should now share some of the burden when it comes to society.

    Not a doubt in my mind.

    Industries offering high wages to attract an ever twindling supply of people qualified to fill vacancies is not wage growth it's a labour shortage.

    If productivity doesn’t increase then we will see inflation.

    Take your own example there apply it to the restaurant, hotel, pub, closed because it can’t get staff. And that’s your answer? It’s economic illiteracy.

    Brexit wasn’t a drawbridge up approach to filling gaps and shortages with immigration, it was a vote to take back control of immigration, anyone now claiming otherwise is a liar. The shortages problem is not an issue about wages, but shortage of people available to do the work in the low wage economy. If Boris thinks he can get round this domestically simply paying higher wages, he’s insane. Don’t tie yourself to this Boris madness, the Tories will u turn in a year.

    This flagship, die in a ditch policy at the very foundation of this governments economic policy, It’s as if Top Tories have got together in a room, decided they have ruled this country too long and agreed to press the political suicide button.

    This is a big moment in sea change in UK politics. Because of what Boris is being allowed to press on here, in 10 years there will be no Scotland in UK and we will have PR.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,580
    TOPPING said:

    Anecdote #2.

    Just been pinged by the friend who found a lump in her breast and, 10 days ago, was referred to the 2-week wait cancer clinic after three sessions with the GP surgery.

    They are so full because of the Covid backlog that the 2-week wait will now be "4-5 weeks". Which we know in the NHS will be 7-8 weeks if she's lucky.

    A friend of mine in the UK has also recently been diagnosed with cancer and is facing COVID-related delays to commencing treatment, but she is not using the NHS but BUPA.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,743
    gealbhan said:

    MrEd said:

    With regards to the argument, higher wages automatically means higher prices, that is not necessarily true. Companies can also choose to absorb them and see a reduction in margins. Company operating margins have been rising over time and corporates have also benefited from lower corporate tax rates. There is a case for arguing they should now share some of the burden when it comes to society.

    Not a doubt in my mind.

    Industries offering high wages to attract an ever twindling supply of people qualified to fill vacancies is not wage growth it's a labour shortage.

    If productivity doesn’t increase then we will see inflation.

    Take your own example there apply it to the restaurant, hotel, pub, closed because it can’t get staff. And that’s your answer? It’s economic illiteracy.

    Brexit wasn’t a drawbridge up approach to filling gaps and shortages with immigration, it was a vote to take back control of immigration, anyone now claiming otherwise is a liar. The shortages problem is not an issue about wages, but shortage of people available to do the work in the low wage economy. If Boris thinks he can get round this domestically simply paying higher wages, he’s insane. Don’t tie yourself to this Boris madness, the Tories will u turn in a year.

    This flagship, die in a ditch policy at the very foundation of this governments economic policy, It’s as if Top Tories have got together in a room, decided they have ruled this country too long and agreed to press the political suicide button.

    This is a big moment in sea change in UK politics. Because of what Boris is being allowed to press on here, in 10 years there will be no Scotland in UK and we will have PR.
    Round here I don't see many job vacancies in the leisure industry - but then again you can still afford to live round here on a minimum wage job.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519
    carnforth said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    nico679 said:

    The suspicion is the UK government will only accept an agreement that renders the protocol so ineffective that the EU could never agree to it. Unionists want effectively no consequences of Brexit and will only stop moaning if they get everything they want .

    Why can you not accept the EU has buckled under pressure and yes, Frost is right to seek his objectives

    Why are EU supporters blind to the adverse actions of UVDL and others or do they look on the EU as some omnipotent presence
    Because we have a European identity and fucking despise the simple minded nationalism and retrogressive world view that Brexit represents. Leavers are never going to come to terms with their victory until they understand that.
    I don't doubt your sincerity, but I wonder what proportion of the "I've always felt European" people came up with that after the referendum.
    Well, yes. I have certainly felt more European since 2016. We had been in Political Europe since I was in short trousers, but you don't miss the water till the well runs dry.

    Mrs Foxy and I may well regain our European citizenship in time. One of the good things about wealth is that it gives freedom of movement.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 17,505
    edited October 7

    SKS fans please explain

    CON: 39% (-)
    LAB: 31% (-)
    LDEM: 9% (+1)
    GRN: 9% (-)
    REFUK: 4% (-)

    via
    @YouGov
    , 05 - 06 Oct
    Chgs. w/ 29 Sep

    Jezbollah fans please explain how the return to the politics that returned 202 seats would be better.
    Explained

    NEW: Starmer is now less popular than Corbyn.

    % of voters who feel positively towards...

    Johnson: 34% (-)
    Sturgeon: 25% (-4)
    Corbyn: 20% (-)
    Lucas: 18% (+1)
    Starmer: 17% (-6)
    Davey: 12% (+3)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 3rd quarter of 2021 (+/- since 2nd quarter)
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    On topic, I’m laying a Tory majority.

    I think an economic shitstorm is coming.

    Signs are already here and will be very obvious in hindsight.

    Is that a plug for Captain Hindsight?
    It’s more like a penny dropping, rather like Blair with his Stubborn Iraq lies and debacle, Boris is throwing it all away.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,318
    Dura_Ace said:

    nico679 said:

    The suspicion is the UK government will only accept an agreement that renders the protocol so ineffective that the EU could never agree to it. Unionists want effectively no consequences of Brexit and will only stop moaning if they get everything they want .

    Why can you not accept the EU has buckled under pressure and yes, Frost is right to seek his objectives

    Why are EU supporters blind to the adverse actions of UVDL and others or do they look on the EU as some omnipotent presence
    Because we have a European identity and fucking despise the simple minded nationalism and retrogressive world view that Brexit represents. Leavers are never going to come to terms with their victory until they understand that.
    Sounds like you're sick and tired of hearing things from uptight shortsighted narrowminded brexiteers. 😡

    In honour of my new photochromic little round John Lennon specs in which I look ... well it's not for me to say.
This discussion has been closed.