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The big challenge for BoJo is that Starmer isn’t Corbyn – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 3 in General
imageThe big challenge for BoJo is that Starmer isn’t Corbyn – politicalbetting.com

I dug out the above polling over the weekend after getting into a discussion on Twitter with Owen Jones and others about my firm view that negative perceptions of Corbyn were the main driver of Johnson’s landslide at GE2019.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 14,991
    edited October 3
    Twice in one day?

    Edit: Oh, yes!

    I'll go to bed now.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 2,981
    franklyn said:

    A high wage economy, says Boris.
    So nurses are given a 3% pay rise for working through Covid with inadequate PPE and then 1% is taken back in national insurance, and the rest in higher petrol prices and electricity costs, leaving most of them poorer that before. You could say the same for lots of people, not to mention the Ponzi scheme of student loans which will burden most high achieving school leavers as soon as they graduate.
    We need lower taxes, so that people retain a decent proportion of what they earn.

    And nurses, like everybody else need to increase their productivity so they can be paid higher wages.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 43,684
    I just don't get Labour types like Owen who claim they are desperate to help the poor and dispossessed.

    In my lifetime only two labour leaders have become PM by winning an election: Wilson and Blair.

    Does it not occur to them that there may be a reason why that is the case?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,475
    edited October 3
    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731
    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    And again property being used as an investment instead of somewhere to live.

    I'm really beginning to think that we need a tremendous property crash in this country and who cares if it leads to negative equity? If you're not planning on moving and are keeping up with your repayments then negative equity is just a figure.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,887

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    And again property being used as an investment instead of somewhere to live.

    I'm really beginning to think that we need a tremendous property crash in this country and who cares if it leads to negative equity? If you're not planning on moving and are keeping up with your repayments then negative equity is just a figure.
    A good dose of negative equity is the surest route to Starmer in number 10.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,362
    franklyn said:

    A high wage economy, says Boris.
    So nurses are given a 3% pay rise for working through Covid with inadequate PPE and then 1% is taken back in national insurance, and the rest in higher petrol prices and electricity costs, leaving most of them poorer that before. You could say the same for lots of people, not to mention the Ponzi scheme of student loans which will burden most high achieving school leavers as soon as they graduate.
    We need lower taxes, so that people retain a decent proportion of what they earn.

    Interesting missuse of percentages.
    Easy example
    Pay 100.00
    3% increase =3.00
    NI employee @ 12%(?) = 0.36p

    Your 1% implies one third or 33% in NI.
    0.36p is in reality 12%
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 17,403
    On topic

    Not difficult at all Captain Hindsight has resonated.

    Although useless nonentity is more accurate
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731
    edited October 3
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    And again property being used as an investment instead of somewhere to live.

    I'm really beginning to think that we need a tremendous property crash in this country and who cares if it leads to negative equity? If you're not planning on moving and are keeping up with your repayments then negative equity is just a figure.
    A good dose of negative equity is the surest route to Starmer in number 10.
    🤷‍♂️

    If Boris can't deal with the problems in the economy then why should he remain in number 10?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 68,915

    Question this late Sunday night.
    Why is the BBC wetting itself over this latest Panama papers leak?
    I mean, rich and powerful people doing rich and powerful things (whilst almost certainly breaking the rules) is hardly news. It's happened for the last six thousand years.....

    Well, even so such things are still newsworthy once known, but at a glance the initial story isn't really setting my outrage radars off for something too dramatic.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,131
    At this stage in the 2015 GE cycle, Ed Miliband’s Labour were between 3-8 points in the lead, and the Tories went from a coalition to a majority

    At this stage in the 2019 GE cycle, Corbyn’s Labour were between level pegging to 9 points in the lead, and the Tories went from a deal with the DUP to an 80 seat majority
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731
    philiph said:

    franklyn said:

    A high wage economy, says Boris.
    So nurses are given a 3% pay rise for working through Covid with inadequate PPE and then 1% is taken back in national insurance, and the rest in higher petrol prices and electricity costs, leaving most of them poorer that before. You could say the same for lots of people, not to mention the Ponzi scheme of student loans which will burden most high achieving school leavers as soon as they graduate.
    We need lower taxes, so that people retain a decent proportion of what they earn.

    Interesting missuse of percentages.
    Easy example
    Pay 100.00
    3% increase =3.00
    NI employee @ 12%(?) = 0.36p

    Your 1% implies one third or 33% in NI.
    0.36p is in reality 12%
    Except you're only doing the 12% on the increase.

    Don't forget there's 1.25% increase in NIC too that's just been announced.

    So 1.25% of £103 = £1.29 as well as your 36p. So total NIC increase = £1.65
    Plus 20% Income Tax on the £3 = 60p.
    So total tax increase £2.25

    So of the £3 increase HMRC is getting £2.25 and the Nurse gets 75 pence.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 14,819

    philiph said:

    franklyn said:

    A high wage economy, says Boris.
    So nurses are given a 3% pay rise for working through Covid with inadequate PPE and then 1% is taken back in national insurance, and the rest in higher petrol prices and electricity costs, leaving most of them poorer that before. You could say the same for lots of people, not to mention the Ponzi scheme of student loans which will burden most high achieving school leavers as soon as they graduate.
    We need lower taxes, so that people retain a decent proportion of what they earn.

    Interesting missuse of percentages.
    Easy example
    Pay 100.00
    3% increase =3.00
    NI employee @ 12%(?) = 0.36p

    Your 1% implies one third or 33% in NI.
    0.36p is in reality 12%
    Except you're only doing the 12% on the increase.

    Don't forget there's 1.25% increase in NIC too that's just been announced.

    So 1.25% of £103 = £1.29 as well as your 36p. So total NIC increase = £1.65
    Plus 20% Income Tax on the £3 = 60p.
    So total tax increase £2.25

    So of the £3 increase HMRC is getting £2.25 and the Nurse gets 75 pence.
    And 4% inflation.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 43,684

    Pippa Crerar
    @PippaCrerar
    Still think
    @AndyBurnhamGM
    is the only (male) politician who has struck the right tone on this: “Any answer to this issue that begins with the words ‘women should’ or ‘women must’ is in my view the wrong answer”.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 14,819


    Pippa Crerar
    @PippaCrerar
    Still think
    @AndyBurnhamGM
    is the only (male) politician who has struck the right tone on this: “Any answer to this issue that begins with the words ‘women should’ or ‘women must’ is in my view the wrong answer”.

    "It begins with men and boys" was how he continued ISTR.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 45,116

    philiph said:

    franklyn said:

    A high wage economy, says Boris.
    So nurses are given a 3% pay rise for working through Covid with inadequate PPE and then 1% is taken back in national insurance, and the rest in higher petrol prices and electricity costs, leaving most of them poorer that before. You could say the same for lots of people, not to mention the Ponzi scheme of student loans which will burden most high achieving school leavers as soon as they graduate.
    We need lower taxes, so that people retain a decent proportion of what they earn.

    Interesting missuse of percentages.
    Easy example
    Pay 100.00
    3% increase =3.00
    NI employee @ 12%(?) = 0.36p

    Your 1% implies one third or 33% in NI.
    0.36p is in reality 12%
    Except you're only doing the 12% on the increase.

    Don't forget there's 1.25% increase in NIC too that's just been announced.

    So 1.25% of £103 = £1.29 as well as your 36p. So total NIC increase = £1.65
    Plus 20% Income Tax on the £3 = 60p.
    So total tax increase £2.25

    So of the £3 increase HMRC is getting £2.25 and the Nurse gets 75 pence.
    In your calculations are you taking into account NI starts at £9,568 pa.

    It is exempt below that
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,496
    On topic, and then off to bed.

    Are the two factors in that Opinium poll mutually exclusive? For example, it is entirely possible many Labour voters were disillusioned with Labour's leadership because it didn't take a clear cut view of Brexit and / or Labour gave the impression of internal discord on the issue. Which would still make Brexit the main factor, directly or indirectly.

  • nico679nico679 Posts: 565
    I’m glad MS has posted that poll because some have been peddling tripe regarding why Labour did so badly in 2019.

    The Brexit position they came to was the least worst of a series of bad options .

    Some seem to forget that Labour voters were overwhelmingly Remain and the notion that they could just totally ignore those voters and just chase the leave voters in the north is delusional .

    Corbyn was the main problem and no amount of spin by some on the left will change that .
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 45,116
    The daily mail makes no reference to the defection story
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731

    philiph said:

    franklyn said:

    A high wage economy, says Boris.
    So nurses are given a 3% pay rise for working through Covid with inadequate PPE and then 1% is taken back in national insurance, and the rest in higher petrol prices and electricity costs, leaving most of them poorer that before. You could say the same for lots of people, not to mention the Ponzi scheme of student loans which will burden most high achieving school leavers as soon as they graduate.
    We need lower taxes, so that people retain a decent proportion of what they earn.

    Interesting missuse of percentages.
    Easy example
    Pay 100.00
    3% increase =3.00
    NI employee @ 12%(?) = 0.36p

    Your 1% implies one third or 33% in NI.
    0.36p is in reality 12%
    Except you're only doing the 12% on the increase.

    Don't forget there's 1.25% increase in NIC too that's just been announced.

    So 1.25% of £103 = £1.29 as well as your 36p. So total NIC increase = £1.65
    Plus 20% Income Tax on the £3 = 60p.
    So total tax increase £2.25

    So of the £3 increase HMRC is getting £2.25 and the Nurse gets 75 pence.
    In your calculations are you taking into account NI starts at £9,568 pa.

    It is exempt below that
    That's a factor but its a fixed and diminished factor as pay goes up and taxes go up.

    Yes the first less than 10k is NI-free but beyond that the calculations work. A less than 1% pay rise which is less than inflation because taxes going up counter the so-called pay rise.

    Want a pay rise? Campaign for tax cuts.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,256
    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    Aside from Tony Blair on one building, it looks so far like a list of foreign leaders. It is hard so far to see any immediate electoral consequences, unless it turns out later to include some of the richer Conservatives.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,131
    edited October 3

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    Aside from Tony Blair on one building, it looks so far like a list of foreign leaders. It is hard so far to see any immediate electoral consequences, unless it turns out later to include some of the richer Conservatives.
    Who unashamedly pinned their colours to Blair recently?
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 1,365
    edited October 3

    The daily mail makes no reference to the defection story

    Don't the Daily Mail and Sunday Mail hate each other (or at least aren't bestest buddies)?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,474
    This video shows the state of US politics at the moment. The person being harassed is a Democratic Senator.

    https://twitter.com/lucha_az/status/1444729925408153601
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,256
    From header – negative perceptions of Corbyn were the main driver of Johnson’s landslide at GE2019

    Up to a point, Lord OGH. What changed between 2017 and 2019 that decimated Labour and demonised Corbyn? An inept campaign, with a manifesto that read like the random thoughts of Seamus Milne rather than a coherent programme, that was reminiscent of Ed Miliband's in 2015. Corbyn himself seemed old and grumpy, and had been ill. The special lens in his glasses prevented him making eye contact with the viewer. Anti-semitism from Scouse Trots readmitted by Miliband. Even on Brexit, the issue of the day, Labour was, thanks partly to Starmer, unclear at best.

    And a below-the-radar campaign of denigration from the Conservatives.

    What's changed under Starmer? No doubt CCHQ is refining attack lines, probably along the lines of Starmer being DPP when [insert crime here]. And Labour's programme is even less clear than before.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,256
    CatMan said:

    The daily mail makes no reference to the defection story

    Don't the Daily Mail and Sunday Mail hate each other (or at least aren't bestest buddies)?
    Yes but it is unlikely they'd sit on a scoop as big as this. If there is to be a group defection this week, there is no point the Sunday sitting on the story as it will be out long before the next edition. Nor would the Daily, if it could stand the story up.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731

    CatMan said:

    The daily mail makes no reference to the defection story

    Don't the Daily Mail and Sunday Mail hate each other (or at least aren't bestest buddies)?
    Yes but it is unlikely they'd sit on a scoop as big as this. If there is to be a group defection this week, there is no point the Sunday sitting on the story as it will be out long before the next edition. Nor would the Daily, if it could stand the story up.
    If the story could be 'stood up' then wouldn't the Sunday have published it yesterday?

    What's developed in the past 24 hours?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 7,102

    From header – negative perceptions of Corbyn were the main driver of Johnson’s landslide at GE2019

    Up to a point, Lord OGH. What changed between 2017 and 2019 that decimated Labour and demonised Corbyn? An inept campaign, with a manifesto that read like the random thoughts of Seamus Milne rather than a coherent programme, that was reminiscent of Ed Miliband's in 2015. Corbyn himself seemed old and grumpy, and had been ill. The special lens in his glasses prevented him making eye contact with the viewer. Anti-semitism from Scouse Trots readmitted by Miliband. Even on Brexit, the issue of the day, Labour was, thanks partly to Starmer, unclear at best.

    And a below-the-radar campaign of denigration from the Conservatives.

    What's changed under Starmer? No doubt CCHQ is refining attack lines, probably along the lines of Starmer being DPP when [insert crime here]. And Labour's programme is even less clear than before.

    The Starmer-DPP thing has been mentioned umpteen times before, but I don't think it's particularly fertile ground - no convincing examples of Sir Keir's supposed misdeeds have ever been forthcoming to my knowledge. Besides, Sir Keir's line that 'I was prosecuting criminals when Boris was still smashing up Oxford restaurants' was a good one; I don't think the Tories would want to allow Sir Keir to popularize it.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,256
    edited October 4

    From header – negative perceptions of Corbyn were the main driver of Johnson’s landslide at GE2019

    Up to a point, Lord OGH. What changed between 2017 and 2019 that decimated Labour and demonised Corbyn? An inept campaign, with a manifesto that read like the random thoughts of Seamus Milne rather than a coherent programme, that was reminiscent of Ed Miliband's in 2015. Corbyn himself seemed old and grumpy, and had been ill. The special lens in his glasses prevented him making eye contact with the viewer. Anti-semitism from Scouse Trots readmitted by Miliband. Even on Brexit, the issue of the day, Labour was, thanks partly to Starmer, unclear at best.

    And a below-the-radar campaign of denigration from the Conservatives.

    What's changed under Starmer? No doubt CCHQ is refining attack lines, probably along the lines of Starmer being DPP when [insert crime here]. And Labour's programme is even less clear than before.

    The Starmer-DPP thing has been mentioned umpteen times before, but I don't think it's particularly fertile ground - no convincing examples of Sir Keir's supposed misdeeds have ever been forthcoming to my knowledge. Besides, Sir Keir's line that 'I was prosecuting criminals when Boris was still smashing up Oxford restaurants' was a good one; I don't think the Tories would want to allow Sir Keir to popularize it.
    One sentence in a below-the-radar social media campaign, tailored to a particular demographic. No misdeeds alleged. Simply the fact he was there when [insert crime here] outraged the populace. Invite the inference. Not refuted by Starmer who does not even know it has been sent. Worth a try.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,475
    edited October 4
    Well done to people in Scotland, the north and the midlands for no longer panic-buying fuel.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58781445
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731
    edited October 4
    Andy_JS said:

    Well done to people in Scotland, the north and the midlands for no longer panic-buying fuel.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58781445

    It's like the old Storm Warning:

    Southerners are urged not to travel unless absolutely necessary. Northerners you'll need your bit coat.

    The "Southern Fairies" need to quit panicking.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,759

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    And again property being used as an investment instead of somewhere to live.

    I'm really beginning to think that we need a tremendous property crash in this country and who cares if it leads to negative equity? If you're not planning on moving and are keeping up with your repayments then negative equity is just a figure.
    Probably right. A friend has just bought a house in Fulham with a £650,000 interest only mortgage at 1.25%. It's costing him less each month than it would renting a terraced house in Hatlepool.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,290
    Foxy said:

    Fishing said:

    franklyn said:

    A high wage economy, says Boris.
    So nurses are given a 3% pay rise for working through Covid with inadequate PPE and then 1% is taken back in national insurance, and the rest in higher petrol prices and electricity costs, leaving most of them poorer that before. You could say the same for lots of people, not to mention the Ponzi scheme of student loans which will burden most high achieving school leavers as soon as they graduate.
    We need lower taxes, so that people retain a decent proportion of what they earn.

    And nurses, like everybody else need to increase their productivity so they can be paid higher wages.
    In practical terms, what does that mean? Is a single staff nurse looking after a ward of 30 patients more productive? Or one who has enough time with each patient that they don't catch a hospital acquired infection, that their vital signs are monitored and acted on, and the patient leaves the hospital alive and expeditiously?
    In practical terms, not very much.
    There has been no coherent account presented on how productivity is meaningfully to be increased above trend.
    Restricting immigration as a means of driving up wages plus hand waving is what we've been offered by the PB Tories so far.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,290
    She continues to take the piss.

    Cressida Dick ‘deeply concerned’ after Met police officer charged with rape
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/03/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-rape-hertfordshire
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,227
    Nigelb said:

    She continues to take the piss.

    Cressida Dick ‘deeply concerned’ after Met police officer charged with rape
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/03/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-rape-hertfordshire

    How many serving police officers being charged with rape on her watch, does she consider acceptable?

    This one is from the same squad as Couzens too, VIP protection. Maybe they need to look a little more closely at the vetting of these officers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,290
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    She continues to take the piss.

    Cressida Dick ‘deeply concerned’ after Met police officer charged with rape
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/03/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-rape-hertfordshire

    How many serving police officers being charged with rape on her watch, does she consider acceptable?

    This one is from the same squad as Couzens too, VIP protection. Maybe they need to look a little more closely at the vetting of these officers.
    All officers.

    I’m very far from an expert in the area, but the Met seems to have a particular problem which other forces perhaps don’t.

    Compare this statement about West Yorkshire Police vetting, which might meet with some approval from @Cyclefree -
    https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/jobs-volunteer/police-officers/police-officers/vetting-faqs

    With the one from the Met:
    https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/force-content/met/careers/careers/detective-constable/cautions-convictions.v4.pdf
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,290
    Nigelb said:
    One notable stat from that article - the ocean shipping companies made $23bn profit in the first half of the year, compared with $1bn previously.
    They are profiting massively from the disruption.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,256
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    She continues to take the piss.

    Cressida Dick ‘deeply concerned’ after Met police officer charged with rape
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/03/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-rape-hertfordshire

    How many serving police officers being charged with rape on her watch, does she consider acceptable?

    This one is from the same squad as Couzens too, VIP protection. Maybe they need to look a little more closely at the vetting of these officers.
    All officers.

    I’m very far from an expert in the area, but the Met seems to have a particular problem which other forces perhaps don’t.

    Compare this statement about West Yorkshire Police vetting, which might meet with some approval from @Cyclefree -
    https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/jobs-volunteer/police-officers/police-officers/vetting-faqs

    With the one from the Met:
    https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/force-content/met/careers/careers/detective-constable/cautions-convictions.v4.pdf
    It is not a secret. Metropolitan Police vetting was relaxed slightly in 2014 as part of a recruitment effort. The Commissioner at the time was Lord Hogan-Howe and the Mayor was Boris Johnson.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/met-police-to-hire-recruits-with-minor-convictions-9604807.html
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,504
    nico679 said:

    I’m glad MS has posted that poll because some have been peddling tripe regarding why Labour did so badly in 2019.

    The Brexit position they came to was the least worst of a series of bad options .

    Some seem to forget that Labour voters were overwhelmingly Remain and the notion that they could just totally ignore those voters and just chase the leave voters in the north is delusional .

    Corbyn was the main problem and no amount of spin by some on the left will change that .

    The least worst Labour option was to abstain and let Brexit be a blue on blue bloodbath.

    Starmer and his fellow undemocratic idiots were intent on overturning the Referendum, however. A point which will still be very germane to very many voters if he is proposed as our PM in 2023 or 2024....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,281

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    She continues to take the piss.

    Cressida Dick ‘deeply concerned’ after Met police officer charged with rape
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/03/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-rape-hertfordshire

    How many serving police officers being charged with rape on her watch, does she consider acceptable?

    This one is from the same squad as Couzens too, VIP protection. Maybe they need to look a little more closely at the vetting of these officers.
    All officers.

    I’m very far from an expert in the area, but the Met seems to have a particular problem which other forces perhaps don’t.

    Compare this statement about West Yorkshire Police vetting, which might meet with some approval from @Cyclefree -
    https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/jobs-volunteer/police-officers/police-officers/vetting-faqs

    With the one from the Met:
    https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/force-content/met/careers/careers/detective-constable/cautions-convictions.v4.pdf
    It is not a secret. Metropolitan Police vetting was relaxed slightly in 2014 as part of a recruitment effort. The Commissioner at the time was Lord Hogan-Howe and the Mayor was Boris Johnson.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/met-police-to-hire-recruits-with-minor-convictions-9604807.html
    You can still have a robust vetting procedure while allowing those with minor convictions not excluded by default.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,504
    Andy_JS said:

    Well done to people in Scotland, the north and the midlands for no longer panic-buying fuel.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58781445

    The panic buying in the SW has been from tourists, fearful they won't get back to the SE.....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,290
    edited October 4

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    She continues to take the piss.

    Cressida Dick ‘deeply concerned’ after Met police officer charged with rape
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/03/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-rape-hertfordshire

    How many serving police officers being charged with rape on her watch, does she consider acceptable?

    This one is from the same squad as Couzens too, VIP protection. Maybe they need to look a little more closely at the vetting of these officers.
    All officers.

    I’m very far from an expert in the area, but the Met seems to have a particular problem which other forces perhaps don’t.

    Compare this statement about West Yorkshire Police vetting, which might meet with some approval from @Cyclefree -
    https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/jobs-volunteer/police-officers/police-officers/vetting-faqs

    With the one from the Met:
    https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/force-content/met/careers/careers/detective-constable/cautions-convictions.v4.pdf
    It is not a secret. Metropolitan Police vetting was relaxed slightly in 2014 as part of a recruitment effort. The Commissioner at the time was Lord Hogan-Howe and the Mayor was Boris Johnson.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/met-police-to-hire-recruits-with-minor-convictions-9604807.html
    That’s one reason why it was so bad.
    Dick was brought in to reform though - and was certainly not intended to be continuity Hogan-Howe (the two had, incidentally, fallen out).

    Here’s Sadiq Khan:
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/22/cressida-dick-appointed-first-female-met-police-commissioner
    … Khan had early on identified Dick as his chosen candidate to be Met commissioner. He said: “She has already had a long and distinguished career, and her experience and ability has shone throughout this process.”

    … Sources close to Khan said that of the four candidates for the job, it was Dick who outlined the best vision for reforming the Met while keeping the capital safe, during two rounds of interviews. The source added Dick “accepts that there needs to be changes”.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,256
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    She continues to take the piss.

    Cressida Dick ‘deeply concerned’ after Met police officer charged with rape
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/03/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-rape-hertfordshire

    How many serving police officers being charged with rape on her watch, does she consider acceptable?

    This one is from the same squad as Couzens too, VIP protection. Maybe they need to look a little more closely at the vetting of these officers.
    All officers.

    I’m very far from an expert in the area, but the Met seems to have a particular problem which other forces perhaps don’t.

    Compare this statement about West Yorkshire Police vetting, which might meet with some approval from @Cyclefree -
    https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/jobs-volunteer/police-officers/police-officers/vetting-faqs

    With the one from the Met:
    https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/force-content/met/careers/careers/detective-constable/cautions-convictions.v4.pdf
    It is not a secret. Metropolitan Police vetting was relaxed slightly in 2014 as part of a recruitment effort. The Commissioner at the time was Lord Hogan-Howe and the Mayor was Boris Johnson.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/met-police-to-hire-recruits-with-minor-convictions-9604807.html
    You can still have a robust vetting procedure while allowing those with minor convictions not excluded by default.
    I expect the Met would claim that is what it has.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,074

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    Aside from Tony Blair on one building, it looks so far like a list of foreign leaders. It is hard so far to see any immediate electoral consequences, unless it turns out later to include some of the richer Conservatives.
    That's quite a convenient narrative if Rishi wants to change the rules on property owned from overseas.

    Perhaps abolish Stamp Duty more widely (which is part of the package if he does a Proportional Property Tax), and put a value levy on foreign owned property, or similar.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,290
    Pandora Papers: Tory donor Mohamed Amersi involved in telecoms corruption scandal
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58783460
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,256
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    She continues to take the piss.

    Cressida Dick ‘deeply concerned’ after Met police officer charged with rape
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/03/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-rape-hertfordshire

    How many serving police officers being charged with rape on her watch, does she consider acceptable?

    This one is from the same squad as Couzens too, VIP protection. Maybe they need to look a little more closely at the vetting of these officers.
    All officers.

    I’m very far from an expert in the area, but the Met seems to have a particular problem which other forces perhaps don’t.

    Compare this statement about West Yorkshire Police vetting, which might meet with some approval from @Cyclefree -
    https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/jobs-volunteer/police-officers/police-officers/vetting-faqs

    With the one from the Met:
    https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/force-content/met/careers/careers/detective-constable/cautions-convictions.v4.pdf
    It is not a secret. Metropolitan Police vetting was relaxed slightly in 2014 as part of a recruitment effort. The Commissioner at the time was Lord Hogan-Howe and the Mayor was Boris Johnson.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/met-police-to-hire-recruits-with-minor-convictions-9604807.html
    That’s one reason why it was so bad.
    Dick was brought in to reform though - and was certainly not intended to be continuity Hogan-Howe (the two had, incidentally, fallen out).

    Here’s Sadiq Khan:
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/22/cressida-dick-appointed-first-female-met-police-commissioner
    … Khan had early on identified Dick as his chosen candidate to be Met commissioner. He said: “She has already had a long and distinguished career, and her experience and ability has shone throughout this process.”

    … Sources close to Khan said that of the four candidates for the job, it was Dick who outlined the best vision for reforming the Met while keeping the capital safe, during two rounds of interviews. The source added Dick “accepts that there needs to be changes”.
    Yes, as I speculated a couple of threads back, it may be that the Mayor and Home Secretary are counting on Cressida Dick to enact other reforms with a view to enhancing both crime prevention and detection.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,248

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    She continues to take the piss.

    Cressida Dick ‘deeply concerned’ after Met police officer charged with rape
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/03/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-rape-hertfordshire

    How many serving police officers being charged with rape on her watch, does she consider acceptable?

    This one is from the same squad as Couzens too, VIP protection. Maybe they need to look a little more closely at the vetting of these officers.
    All officers.

    I’m very far from an expert in the area, but the Met seems to have a particular problem which other forces perhaps don’t.

    Compare this statement about West Yorkshire Police vetting, which might meet with some approval from @Cyclefree -
    https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/jobs-volunteer/police-officers/police-officers/vetting-faqs

    With the one from the Met:
    https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/force-content/met/careers/careers/detective-constable/cautions-convictions.v4.pdf
    It is not a secret. Metropolitan Police vetting was relaxed slightly in 2014 as part of a recruitment effort. The Commissioner at the time was Lord Hogan-Howe and the Mayor was Boris Johnson.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/met-police-to-hire-recruits-with-minor-convictions-9604807.html
    You can still have a robust vetting procedure while allowing those with minor convictions not excluded by default.
    I expect the Met would claim that is what it has.
    Well, they’re hardly going to say ‘we’ve deliberately invented shite procedures so we could knowingly hire a load of dangerous criminals,’ are they?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,256
    Nigelb said:

    Pandora Papers: Tory donor Mohamed Amersi involved in telecoms corruption scandal
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58783460

    More vetting failures!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,683
    The belated Sunday Rawnsley:

    When Dominic Cummings described the man he worked with at Number 10 as “ludicrously” unfit to be prime minister, it was not just non-Tories who found themselves in sudden agreement with Mr Cummings. There are plenty of Tories who think Mr Johnson is just not up to it. “The trouble with Boris is that he’s not very interested in governing,” says one former Tory cabinet minister. “He’s only interested in two things. Being world king and shagging.” The charge that his regime is fundamentally incompetent, so often made and with so much justice during the pandemic, is back and with a sting.

    The acutest anxiety among Tory MPs is that Britain is heading into what one former cabinet minister calls “a bleak midwinter”, during which empty shelves in the shops will be accompanied by sharply rising food prices. That will be compounded by hefty increases in home gas and electricity bills. Inflation has not been a highly salient issue in British politics since Rishi Sunak was a teenager and Mr Johnson was still married to his first wife.

    The households that will hurt most are the just-about-managing whose family budgets are already tight, many of them exactly the kind of working-class voter who delivered a majority to the Conservatives at the last election. This cohort, a lot of them first-time Tory supporters in 2019, will also feel the effects of the end of furlough, the hike in national insurance which will eat into pay packets from next spring and the cancellation of the £20 uplift in universal credit which will bite on Wednesday, the very day Mr Johnson makes his conference speech. Boosterish blather about “levelling up” will ring particularly hollow if the living standards of millions of people are being crunched down.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,074
    edited October 4

    From header – negative perceptions of Corbyn were the main driver of Johnson’s landslide at GE2019

    Up to a point, Lord OGH. What changed between 2017 and 2019 that decimated Labour and demonised Corbyn? An inept campaign, with a manifesto that read like the random thoughts of Seamus Milne rather than a coherent programme, that was reminiscent of Ed Miliband's in 2015. Corbyn himself seemed old and grumpy, and had been ill. The special lens in his glasses prevented him making eye contact with the viewer. Anti-semitism from Scouse Trots readmitted by Miliband. Even on Brexit, the issue of the day, Labour was, thanks partly to Starmer, unclear at best.

    And a below-the-radar campaign of denigration from the Conservatives.

    What's changed under Starmer? No doubt CCHQ is refining attack lines, probably along the lines of Starmer being DPP when [insert crime here]. And Labour's programme is even less clear than before.

    What happened with Corbyn was that a lot of people found out between 2017 and 2019 just how crazed he is.

    >"Anti-semitism from Scouse Trots readmitted by Miliband. "

    That is so minimised geographically that you must be dreaming.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,227
    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    Aside from Tony Blair on one building, it looks so far like a list of foreign leaders. It is hard so far to see any immediate electoral consequences, unless it turns out later to include some of the richer Conservatives.
    That's quite a convenient narrative if Rishi wants to change the rules on property owned from overseas.

    Perhaps abolish Stamp Duty more widely (which is part of the package if he does a Proportional Property Tax), and put a value levy on foreign owned property, or similar.
    Yes. A lot of the London market, in particular, has been bought up by non-citizen, non-resident individuals.

    Many of the developers made all their marketing materials in Arabic and Chinese, and actively targeted foreign investors rather than sell locally in the UK. Before the pandemic there were a lot of property exhibitions in the Middle East and China, and the developers could sell a whole building off-plan in a month, from two or three exhibitions.

    Even worse, a lot of these apartments haven’t been let, but are being left empty. A combination of high stamp duty (10%?) on these transactions, and triple council tax for empty properties, would help sort out this market.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,209
    That twat Alastair Campbell is blaming the death of that girl on people not wearing masks. Whilst not wearing a mask.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,282
    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    Seems that the biggest UK fish is Blair.

    And yet the Guardian/BBC try to drive the narrative over the Tory conference.

    Funny old world
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,282

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    And again property being used as an investment instead of somewhere to live.

    I'm really beginning to think that we need a tremendous property crash in this country and who cares if it leads to negative equity? If you're not planning on moving and are keeping up with your repayments then negative equity is just a figure.
    Times change.

    Let’s say you are offered a great career opportunity the other side of the country. Can’t move because of negative equity? That’s bad luck for you.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 56,992
    Good morning, everyone.

    However, order matters. This isn't quite the boiled egg (you can't unboil it once it's boiled) but Starmer isn't coming into a normal party with a clean slate. He's coming into a party formerly led by a far left idiot (who still has adherents within it). Undoing that in both practical and PR terms takes time and effort.

    Still, Starmer being Leader of the Opposition, as opposed to Comrade Wreath-Layer, is a good thing for both Labour and the country.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,227

    nico679 said:

    I’m glad MS has posted that poll because some have been peddling tripe regarding why Labour did so badly in 2019.

    The Brexit position they came to was the least worst of a series of bad options .

    Some seem to forget that Labour voters were overwhelmingly Remain and the notion that they could just totally ignore those voters and just chase the leave voters in the north is delusional .

    Corbyn was the main problem and no amount of spin by some on the left will change that .

    The least worst Labour option was to abstain and let Brexit be a blue on blue bloodbath.

    Starmer and his fellow undemocratic idiots were intent on overturning the Referendum, however. A point which will still be very germane to very many voters if he is proposed as our PM in 2023 or 2024....
    Recent UK history would be very different now, had Corbyn and Starmer abstained the ‘meaningful’ vote on Mrs May’s deal.

    Labour would have been left somewhat united, and the Tories utterly divided.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,282
    philiph said:

    franklyn said:

    A high wage economy, says Boris.
    So nurses are given a 3% pay rise for working through Covid with inadequate PPE and then 1% is taken back in national insurance, and the rest in higher petrol prices and electricity costs, leaving most of them poorer that before. You could say the same for lots of people, not to mention the Ponzi scheme of student loans which will burden most high achieving school leavers as soon as they graduate.
    We need lower taxes, so that people retain a decent proportion of what they earn.

    Interesting missuse of percentages.
    Easy example
    Pay 100.00
    3% increase =3.00
    NI employee @ 12%(?) = 0.36p

    Your 1% implies one third or 33% in NI.
    0.36p is in reality 12%
    It’s 1% on the 100 (assuming the 100 is below the cap) not just the 3
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,227
    Charles said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    And again property being used as an investment instead of somewhere to live.

    I'm really beginning to think that we need a tremendous property crash in this country and who cares if it leads to negative equity? If you're not planning on moving and are keeping up with your repayments then negative equity is just a figure.
    Times change.

    Let’s say you are offered a great career opportunity the other side of the country. Can’t move because of negative equity? That’s bad luck for you.
    Negative equity is a real bummer, as anyone from 1993 will remember. There needs to be a gradual adjustment downwards of real (in the economic sense of that word) property values, but a house price crash is definitely not desirable!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,282
    nico679 said:

    I’m glad MS has posted that poll because some have been peddling tripe regarding why Labour did so badly in 2019.

    The Brexit position they came to was the least worst of a series of bad options .

    Some seem to forget that Labour voters were overwhelmingly Remain and the notion that they could just totally ignore those voters and just chase the leave voters in the north is delusional .

    Corbyn was the main problem and no amount of spin by some on the left will change that .

    ISTR they were only overwhelming remain at the end of a sorting process where Labour was perceived as chipping and chiselling against the democratically expressed views of the British voters for years.

    If they had been bolder from the start - perhaps advocating EEA - then the mix would likely have been different
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,282

    From header – negative perceptions of Corbyn were the main driver of Johnson’s landslide at GE2019

    Up to a point, Lord OGH. What changed between 2017 and 2019 that decimated Labour and demonised Corbyn? An inept campaign, with a manifesto that read like the random thoughts of Seamus Milne rather than a coherent programme, that was reminiscent of Ed Miliband's in 2015. Corbyn himself seemed old and grumpy, and had been ill. The special lens in his glasses prevented him making eye contact with the viewer. Anti-semitism from Scouse Trots readmitted by Miliband. Even on Brexit, the issue of the day, Labour was, thanks partly to Starmer, unclear at best.

    And a below-the-radar campaign of denigration from the Conservatives.

    What's changed under Starmer? No doubt CCHQ is refining attack lines, probably along the lines of Starmer being DPP when [insert crime here]. And Labour's programme is even less clear than before.

    The Starmer-DPP thing has been mentioned umpteen times before, but I don't think it's particularly fertile ground - no convincing examples of Sir Keir's supposed misdeeds have ever been forthcoming to my knowledge. Besides, Sir Keir's line that 'I was prosecuting criminals when Boris was still smashing up Oxford restaurants' was a good one; I don't think the Tories would want to allow Sir Keir to popularize it.
    One sentence in a below-the-radar social media campaign, tailored to a particular demographic. No misdeeds alleged. Simply the fact he was there when [insert crime here] outraged the populace. Invite the inference. Not refuted by Starmer who does not even know it has been sent. Worth a try.
    How do you know they aren’t?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,592
    Sandpit said:

    nico679 said:

    I’m glad MS has posted that poll because some have been peddling tripe regarding why Labour did so badly in 2019.

    The Brexit position they came to was the least worst of a series of bad options .

    Some seem to forget that Labour voters were overwhelmingly Remain and the notion that they could just totally ignore those voters and just chase the leave voters in the north is delusional .

    Corbyn was the main problem and no amount of spin by some on the left will change that .

    The least worst Labour option was to abstain and let Brexit be a blue on blue bloodbath.

    Starmer and his fellow undemocratic idiots were intent on overturning the Referendum, however. A point which will still be very germane to very many voters if he is proposed as our PM in 2023 or 2024....
    Recent UK history would be very different now, had Corbyn and Starmer abstained the ‘meaningful’ vote on Mrs May’s deal.

    Labour would have been left somewhat united, and the Tories utterly divided.
    With “BREXIT done” and the Tories descended into a vicious civil war Labour might well have been able to form a coalition govt at the next GE - and if they’d ditched Corbyn, quite possibly a majority one.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,209
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10055137/Met-cop-dressed-Jimmy-Savile-stag-officers-job.html

    A police sergeant has escaped disciplinary proceedings after being photographed while dressed as paedophile Jimmy Savile on his stag weekend alongside a group of fellow officers.

    What do we think? Sackable offence, or none of the employer’s business?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,256
    Charles said:

    From header – negative perceptions of Corbyn were the main driver of Johnson’s landslide at GE2019

    Up to a point, Lord OGH. What changed between 2017 and 2019 that decimated Labour and demonised Corbyn? An inept campaign, with a manifesto that read like the random thoughts of Seamus Milne rather than a coherent programme, that was reminiscent of Ed Miliband's in 2015. Corbyn himself seemed old and grumpy, and had been ill. The special lens in his glasses prevented him making eye contact with the viewer. Anti-semitism from Scouse Trots readmitted by Miliband. Even on Brexit, the issue of the day, Labour was, thanks partly to Starmer, unclear at best.

    And a below-the-radar campaign of denigration from the Conservatives.

    What's changed under Starmer? No doubt CCHQ is refining attack lines, probably along the lines of Starmer being DPP when [insert crime here]. And Labour's programme is even less clear than before.

    The Starmer-DPP thing has been mentioned umpteen times before, but I don't think it's particularly fertile ground - no convincing examples of Sir Keir's supposed misdeeds have ever been forthcoming to my knowledge. Besides, Sir Keir's line that 'I was prosecuting criminals when Boris was still smashing up Oxford restaurants' was a good one; I don't think the Tories would want to allow Sir Keir to popularize it.
    One sentence in a below-the-radar social media campaign, tailored to a particular demographic. No misdeeds alleged. Simply the fact he was there when [insert crime here] outraged the populace. Invite the inference. Not refuted by Starmer who does not even know it has been sent. Worth a try.
    How do you know they aren’t?
    I don't but as there is no election imminent, I doubt they'd bother just now, except for test purposes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,248
    tlg86 said:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10055137/Met-cop-dressed-Jimmy-Savile-stag-officers-job.html

    A police sergeant has escaped disciplinary proceedings after being photographed while dressed as paedophile Jimmy Savile on his stag weekend alongside a group of fellow officers.

    What do we think? Sackable offence, or none of the employer’s business?

    Bringing your employer into disrepute is normally a sackable offence.

    However. In this case, how could he possibly bring the police into more disrepute than they are already in?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,887

    Andy_JS said:

    Well done to people in Scotland, the north and the midlands for no longer panic-buying fuel.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58781445

    The panic buying in the SW has been from tourists, fearful they won't get back to the SE.....
    Drove back from the IoW last night. Empty stations in Romsey, Oxford, and A34 services, but open in Sooutjampton, Winchester, M40 services and Leicester. Not sure if it was coincidence but the dry ones were all Shell..
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,470
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Well done to people in Scotland, the north and the midlands for no longer panic-buying fuel.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58781445

    The panic buying in the SW has been from tourists, fearful they won't get back to the SE.....
    Drove back from the IoW last night. Empty stations in Romsey, Oxford, and A34 services, but open in Sooutjampton, Winchester, M40 services and Leicester. Not sure if it was coincidence but the dry ones were all Shell..
    Quite. We are going on holday to the West Country and will make sure we fill up before we get back... but by tyen ut might be all over anyway.

    Poor old Scott n paste will still whining about it long after everyone has moved on...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731
    tlg86 said:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10055137/Met-cop-dressed-Jimmy-Savile-stag-officers-job.html

    A police sergeant has escaped disciplinary proceedings after being photographed while dressed as paedophile Jimmy Savile on his stag weekend alongside a group of fellow officers.

    What do we think? Sackable offence, or none of the employer’s business?

    I think none of the employers business for this one.

    Someone doing fancy dress for a stag weekend isn't disrepute.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,282
    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    Aside from Tony Blair on one building, it looks so far like a list of foreign leaders. It is hard so far to see any immediate electoral consequences, unless it turns out later to include some of the richer Conservatives.
    That's quite a convenient narrative if Rishi wants to change the rules on property owned from overseas.

    Perhaps abolish Stamp Duty more widely (which is part of the package if he does a Proportional Property Tax), and put a value levy on foreign owned property, or similar.
    Enveloped dwellings already pay annual tax (which Blair will be paying unless he had unwound the structure).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,248
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Well done to people in Scotland, the north and the midlands for no longer panic-buying fuel.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58781445

    The panic buying in the SW has been from tourists, fearful they won't get back to the SE.....
    Drove back from the IoW last night. Empty stations in Romsey, Oxford, and A34 services, but open in Sooutjampton, Winchester, M40 services and Leicester. Not sure if it was coincidence but the dry ones were all Shell..
    So at the fuller ones, you complained at having to shell out?

    Ah, my coat…
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,887
    tlg86 said:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10055137/Met-cop-dressed-Jimmy-Savile-stag-officers-job.html

    A police sergeant has escaped disciplinary proceedings after being photographed while dressed as paedophile Jimmy Savile on his stag weekend alongside a group of fellow officers.

    What do we think? Sackable offence, or none of the employer’s business?

    Stupid and bad taste, but the punishment seems appropriate. If I were his boss though I would go over his records for other incidents that may be more serious, and that do need formal investigation.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,227
    tlg86 said:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10055137/Met-cop-dressed-Jimmy-Savile-stag-officers-job.html

    A police sergeant has escaped disciplinary proceedings after being photographed while dressed as paedophile Jimmy Savile on his stag weekend alongside a group of fellow officers.

    What do we think? Sackable offence, or none of the employer’s business?

    Tabloid newspaper trying to add fuel to the fire. Fancy dress at a stag party in another country is none of the employer’s business.

    Let’s concentrate on the actual rapists, rather than those who dress up as one!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,887
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Well done to people in Scotland, the north and the midlands for no longer panic-buying fuel.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58781445

    The panic buying in the SW has been from tourists, fearful they won't get back to the SE.....
    Drove back from the IoW last night. Empty stations in Romsey, Oxford, and A34 services, but open in Sooutjampton, Winchester, M40 services and Leicester. Not sure if it was coincidence but the dry ones were all Shell..
    So at the fuller ones, you complained at having to shell out?

    Ah, my coat…
    Electric vehicle, so just looking for anecdata to enliven the journey.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731
    Charles said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    And again property being used as an investment instead of somewhere to live.

    I'm really beginning to think that we need a tremendous property crash in this country and who cares if it leads to negative equity? If you're not planning on moving and are keeping up with your repayments then negative equity is just a figure.
    Times change.

    Let’s say you are offered a great career opportunity the other side of the country. Can’t move because of negative equity? That’s bad luck for you.
    Indeed that's a shame. However those looking to move while having negative equity will benefit from reduced house prices too so swings and roundabouts.

    But can't live where you already are because of insane house prices meaning you're essentially in negative equity without moving? That's even worse and a bigger evil.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,282
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    And again property being used as an investment instead of somewhere to live.

    I'm really beginning to think that we need a tremendous property crash in this country and who cares if it leads to negative equity? If you're not planning on moving and are keeping up with your repayments then negative equity is just a figure.
    Times change.

    Let’s say you are offered a great career opportunity the other side of the country. Can’t move because of negative equity? That’s bad luck for you.
    Negative equity is a real bummer, as anyone from 1993 will remember. There needs to be a gradual adjustment downwards of real (in the economic sense of that word) property values, but a house price crash is definitely not desirable!
    100% agree
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,470

    Nigelb said:

    Pandora Papers: Tory donor Mohamed Amersi involved in telecoms corruption scandal
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58783460

    More vetting failures!
    Quite.. the BBC shouod be more careful before smearing someone. There is no evidence this giy has done anything wrong, not saying he hasnt but the BBC piece is full of holes as its all smear and innuendo
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,227

    Charles said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    And again property being used as an investment instead of somewhere to live.

    I'm really beginning to think that we need a tremendous property crash in this country and who cares if it leads to negative equity? If you're not planning on moving and are keeping up with your repayments then negative equity is just a figure.
    Times change.

    Let’s say you are offered a great career opportunity the other side of the country. Can’t move because of negative equity? That’s bad luck for you.
    Indeed that's a shame. However those looking to move while having negative equity will benefit from reduced house prices too so swings and roundabouts.

    But can't live where you already are because of insane house prices meaning you're essentially in negative equity without moving? That's even worse and a bigger evil.
    Nope. Those looking to move with negative equity, will need to find a pile of cash to pay off their existing mortgage after the sale, plus another pile of cash for the deposit on the new place, plus another pile of cash for the costs of moving.

    If you have a £300k mortgage on a £250k house, you’re utterly screwed if for any reason you need to sell up.
  • eekeek Posts: 14,839
    edited October 4
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    And again property being used as an investment instead of somewhere to live.

    I'm really beginning to think that we need a tremendous property crash in this country and who cares if it leads to negative equity? If you're not planning on moving and are keeping up with your repayments then negative equity is just a figure.
    Times change.

    Let’s say you are offered a great career opportunity the other side of the country. Can’t move because of negative equity? That’s bad luck for you.
    Indeed that's a shame. However those looking to move while having negative equity will benefit from reduced house prices too so swings and roundabouts.

    But can't live where you already are because of insane house prices meaning you're essentially in negative equity without moving? That's even worse and a bigger evil.
    Nope. Those looking to move with negative equity, will need to find a pile of cash to pay off their existing mortgage after the sale, plus another pile of cash for the deposit on the new place, plus another pile of cash for the costs of moving.

    If you have a £300k mortgage on a £250k house, you’re utterly screwed if for any reason you need to sell up.
    That has been a solved problem for a long time. In NI negative equity mortgages have existed since 2011 allowing the negative equity to be transferred as you moved house because allowing people to move increases the likelihood of the loan being paid off eventually
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,290

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    She continues to take the piss.

    Cressida Dick ‘deeply concerned’ after Met police officer charged with rape
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/03/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-rape-hertfordshire

    How many serving police officers being charged with rape on her watch, does she consider acceptable?

    This one is from the same squad as Couzens too, VIP protection. Maybe they need to look a little more closely at the vetting of these officers.
    All officers.

    I’m very far from an expert in the area, but the Met seems to have a particular problem which other forces perhaps don’t.

    Compare this statement about West Yorkshire Police vetting, which might meet with some approval from @Cyclefree -
    https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/jobs-volunteer/police-officers/police-officers/vetting-faqs

    With the one from the Met:
    https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/force-content/met/careers/careers/detective-constable/cautions-convictions.v4.pdf
    It is not a secret. Metropolitan Police vetting was relaxed slightly in 2014 as part of a recruitment effort. The Commissioner at the time was Lord Hogan-Howe and the Mayor was Boris Johnson.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/met-police-to-hire-recruits-with-minor-convictions-9604807.html
    That’s one reason why it was so bad.
    Dick was brought in to reform though - and was certainly not intended to be continuity Hogan-Howe (the two had, incidentally, fallen out).

    Here’s Sadiq Khan:
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/22/cressida-dick-appointed-first-female-met-police-commissioner
    … Khan had early on identified Dick as his chosen candidate to be Met commissioner. He said: “She has already had a long and distinguished career, and her experience and ability has shone throughout this process.”

    … Sources close to Khan said that of the four candidates for the job, it was Dick who outlined the best vision for reforming the Met while keeping the capital safe, during two rounds of interviews. The source added Dick “accepts that there needs to be changes”.
    Yes, as I speculated a couple of threads back, it may be that the Mayor and Home Secretary are counting on Cressida Dick to enact other reforms with a view to enhancing both crime prevention and detection.
    Or it might just be they don't want to admit their judgment if her was wrong.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,227
    Facebook whistleblower on CBS “60 Minutes” overnight.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58784615

    Penny for Nick Clegg’s thoughts today!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,248
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Well done to people in Scotland, the north and the midlands for no longer panic-buying fuel.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58781445

    The panic buying in the SW has been from tourists, fearful they won't get back to the SE.....
    Drove back from the IoW last night. Empty stations in Romsey, Oxford, and A34 services, but open in Sooutjampton, Winchester, M40 services and Leicester. Not sure if it was coincidence but the dry ones were all Shell..
    So at the fuller ones, you complained at having to shell out?

    Ah, my coat…
    Electric vehicle, so just looking for anecdata to enliven the journey.
    You could have done that just plugging electric vehicles.

    No charge.

    This time it really is my coat. Have a good morning.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,290

    Nigelb said:

    Pandora Papers: Tory donor Mohamed Amersi involved in telecoms corruption scandal
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58783460

    More vetting failures!
    Quite.. the BBC shouod be more careful before smearing someone. There is no evidence this giy has done anything wrong, not saying he hasnt but the BBC piece is full of holes as its all smear and innuendo
    It's not smearing him to say that he was involved (perhaps unwittingly) in the payment of what the Swedish company involved has admitted was (and has been punished for) a $200m bribe.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,869
    On the Pandora papers:
    After the Guardians abhorrent behaviour over Wikileaks, they should ne nowhere near confidential information.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,290
    The Tories approach to vetting their donors appears to be even lighter touch than that of the Met recruiters.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,256
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    She continues to take the piss.

    Cressida Dick ‘deeply concerned’ after Met police officer charged with rape
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/03/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-rape-hertfordshire

    How many serving police officers being charged with rape on her watch, does she consider acceptable?

    This one is from the same squad as Couzens too, VIP protection. Maybe they need to look a little more closely at the vetting of these officers.
    All officers.

    I’m very far from an expert in the area, but the Met seems to have a particular problem which other forces perhaps don’t.

    Compare this statement about West Yorkshire Police vetting, which might meet with some approval from @Cyclefree -
    https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/jobs-volunteer/police-officers/police-officers/vetting-faqs

    With the one from the Met:
    https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/force-content/met/careers/careers/detective-constable/cautions-convictions.v4.pdf
    It is not a secret. Metropolitan Police vetting was relaxed slightly in 2014 as part of a recruitment effort. The Commissioner at the time was Lord Hogan-Howe and the Mayor was Boris Johnson.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/met-police-to-hire-recruits-with-minor-convictions-9604807.html
    That’s one reason why it was so bad.
    Dick was brought in to reform though - and was certainly not intended to be continuity Hogan-Howe (the two had, incidentally, fallen out).

    Here’s Sadiq Khan:
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/22/cressida-dick-appointed-first-female-met-police-commissioner
    … Khan had early on identified Dick as his chosen candidate to be Met commissioner. He said: “She has already had a long and distinguished career, and her experience and ability has shone throughout this process.”

    … Sources close to Khan said that of the four candidates for the job, it was Dick who outlined the best vision for reforming the Met while keeping the capital safe, during two rounds of interviews. The source added Dick “accepts that there needs to be changes”.
    Yes, as I speculated a couple of threads back, it may be that the Mayor and Home Secretary are counting on Cressida Dick to enact other reforms with a view to enhancing both crime prevention and detection.
    Or it might just be they don't want to admit their judgment if her was wrong.
    Would that apply to the Home Secretary and Prime Minister, neither of whom was involved in her appointment in 2017? No, there must be more to it than that.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,320
    Sandpit said:

    Facebook whistleblower on CBS “60 Minutes” overnight.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58784615

    Penny for Nick Clegg’s thoughts today!

    Caveat Emptor I would hope.

    What's the big smoking gun? That Insta promotes idealised body images or that celebs are treated differently to others?

    Well close down Vogue magazine and the Chiltern Firehouse while you're at it.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 13,091
    Andy_JS said:

    Well done to people in Scotland, the north and the midlands for no longer panic-buying fuel.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58781445

    I'm back in (oh lanky lanky) Lancashire and already the contrasts between sanity in Scotland and lunacy down here is stark. Whilst I successfully refuelled the car for the trip home later it was stark the issues down here. Asda was open on one island only with a huge queue (late Sunday afternoon). A shell station had premium only. A Texaco station was open but had thought charging motorway prices was appropriate. 4th one I went past was open and quiet so went there.

    And this is good compared to dahn sarf? Crazy.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,282

    Charles said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    And again property being used as an investment instead of somewhere to live.

    I'm really beginning to think that we need a tremendous property crash in this country and who cares if it leads to negative equity? If you're not planning on moving and are keeping up with your repayments then negative equity is just a figure.
    Times change.

    Let’s say you are offered a great career opportunity the other side of the country. Can’t move because of negative equity? That’s bad luck for you.
    Indeed that's a shame. However those looking to move while having negative equity will benefit from reduced house prices too so swings and roundabouts.

    But can't live where you already are because of insane house prices meaning you're essentially in negative equity without moving? That's even worse and a bigger evil.
    How about destroying the banking system?

    Believe me house prices are too high. But a crash is not the answer.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,887
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    And again property being used as an investment instead of somewhere to live.

    I'm really beginning to think that we need a tremendous property crash in this country and who cares if it leads to negative equity? If you're not planning on moving and are keeping up with your repayments then negative equity is just a figure.
    Times change.

    Let’s say you are offered a great career opportunity the other side of the country. Can’t move because of negative equity? That’s bad luck for you.
    Indeed that's a shame. However those looking to move while having negative equity will benefit from reduced house prices too so swings and roundabouts.

    But can't live where you already are because of insane house prices meaning you're essentially in negative equity without moving? That's even worse and a bigger evil.
    Nope. Those looking to move with negative equity, will need to find a pile of cash to pay off their existing mortgage after the sale, plus another pile of cash for the deposit on the new place, plus another pile of cash for the costs of moving.

    If you have a £300k mortgage on a £250k house, you’re utterly screwed if for any reason you need to sell up.
    Yes, I remember the negative equity of the nineties, and the stagnant house prices afterwards. Not only could people not sell, but mortgage companies would value properties below their current selling prices as they were anticipating further drops. This meant that purchasers needed an even bigger deposit, or would lose the property. This happened to me a couple of times, despite an income and career with good prospects.

    Rising house prices create problems, but falling ones are pretty miserable. Then the the whole cycle kicked off again. The house I bought for £85 000 in 1996, I sold at £165 000 in 2001.

    While the larger economy did well in the nineties, at the level of the individual household finances there was a lot of difficulty. This was part of the New Labour Landslide of 1997. That is why if it happens again Starmer is in number 10.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,290

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    She continues to take the piss.

    Cressida Dick ‘deeply concerned’ after Met police officer charged with rape
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/03/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-rape-hertfordshire

    How many serving police officers being charged with rape on her watch, does she consider acceptable?

    This one is from the same squad as Couzens too, VIP protection. Maybe they need to look a little more closely at the vetting of these officers.
    All officers.

    I’m very far from an expert in the area, but the Met seems to have a particular problem which other forces perhaps don’t.

    Compare this statement about West Yorkshire Police vetting, which might meet with some approval from @Cyclefree -
    https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/jobs-volunteer/police-officers/police-officers/vetting-faqs

    With the one from the Met:
    https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/force-content/met/careers/careers/detective-constable/cautions-convictions.v4.pdf
    It is not a secret. Metropolitan Police vetting was relaxed slightly in 2014 as part of a recruitment effort. The Commissioner at the time was Lord Hogan-Howe and the Mayor was Boris Johnson.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/met-police-to-hire-recruits-with-minor-convictions-9604807.html
    That’s one reason why it was so bad.
    Dick was brought in to reform though - and was certainly not intended to be continuity Hogan-Howe (the two had, incidentally, fallen out).

    Here’s Sadiq Khan:
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/22/cressida-dick-appointed-first-female-met-police-commissioner
    … Khan had early on identified Dick as his chosen candidate to be Met commissioner. He said: “She has already had a long and distinguished career, and her experience and ability has shone throughout this process.”

    … Sources close to Khan said that of the four candidates for the job, it was Dick who outlined the best vision for reforming the Met while keeping the capital safe, during two rounds of interviews. The source added Dick “accepts that there needs to be changes”.
    Yes, as I speculated a couple of threads back, it may be that the Mayor and Home Secretary are counting on Cressida Dick to enact other reforms with a view to enhancing both crime prevention and detection.
    Or it might just be they don't want to admit their judgment if her was wrong.
    Would that apply to the Home Secretary and Prime Minister, neither of whom was involved in her appointment in 2017? No, there must be more to it than that.
    They just have very poor judgment, then.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,887
    Nigelb said:

    The Tories approach to vetting their donors appears to be even lighter touch than that of the Met recruiters.

    Kleptocracy at the top, austerity at the bottom.

    Same old, same old.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 13,091
    IanB2 said:

    The belated Sunday Rawnsley:

    When Dominic Cummings described the man he worked with at Number 10 as “ludicrously” unfit to be prime minister, it was not just non-Tories who found themselves in sudden agreement with Mr Cummings. There are plenty of Tories who think Mr Johnson is just not up to it. “The trouble with Boris is that he’s not very interested in governing,” says one former Tory cabinet minister. “He’s only interested in two things. Being world king and shagging.” The charge that his regime is fundamentally incompetent, so often made and with so much justice during the pandemic, is back and with a sting.

    The acutest anxiety among Tory MPs is that Britain is heading into what one former cabinet minister calls “a bleak midwinter”, during which empty shelves in the shops will be accompanied by sharply rising food prices. That will be compounded by hefty increases in home gas and electricity bills. Inflation has not been a highly salient issue in British politics since Rishi Sunak was a teenager and Mr Johnson was still married to his first wife.

    The households that will hurt most are the just-about-managing whose family budgets are already tight, many of them exactly the kind of working-class voter who delivered a majority to the Conservatives at the last election. This cohort, a lot of them first-time Tory supporters in 2019, will also feel the effects of the end of furlough, the hike in national insurance which will eat into pay packets from next spring and the cancellation of the £20 uplift in universal credit which will bite on Wednesday, the very day Mr Johnson makes his conference speech. Boosterish blather about “levelling up” will ring particularly hollow if the living standards of millions of people are being crunched down.

    I don't know what to make of this. On one hand Beaker and the Muppets insisting there is no crisis in the supply chain, that we need this period of transition to make Brexit a success indicates that yes we are going to have a difficult period ahead.

    On the other hand we know he is frit of negative headlines. So they're bound to do the things they insisted they would not do 5 minutes earlier. We also know they (with the exception of Rishi and the Treasury) are grossly incompetent.

    So the risk here is a winter of shit. With "no no no no no no yes" denials making it look like a shambles. And then a badly conceived "fix" that does nothing. They could be getting a kicking for all of these simultaneously.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,683
    edited October 4

    Andy_JS said:

    Well done to people in Scotland, the north and the midlands for no longer panic-buying fuel.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58781445

    I'm back in (oh lanky lanky) Lancashire and already the contrasts between sanity in Scotland and lunacy down here is stark. Whilst I successfully refuelled the car for the trip home later it was stark the issues down here. Asda was open on one island only with a huge queue (late Sunday afternoon). A shell station had premium only. A Texaco station was open but had thought charging motorway prices was appropriate. 4th one I went past was open and quiet so went there.

    And this is good compared to dahn sarf? Crazy.
    After Brexit, the army will be called in so that people in the south of England can still get fuel?

    Nah, never going to happen, mate! Just more Project Fear.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    And again property being used as an investment instead of somewhere to live.

    I'm really beginning to think that we need a tremendous property crash in this country and who cares if it leads to negative equity? If you're not planning on moving and are keeping up with your repayments then negative equity is just a figure.
    Times change.

    Let’s say you are offered a great career opportunity the other side of the country. Can’t move because of negative equity? That’s bad luck for you.
    Indeed that's a shame. However those looking to move while having negative equity will benefit from reduced house prices too so swings and roundabouts.

    But can't live where you already are because of insane house prices meaning you're essentially in negative equity without moving? That's even worse and a bigger evil.
    How about destroying the banking system?

    Believe me house prices are too high. But a crash is not the answer.
    That's the problem though, people react with abject horror at any proposed solution.

    As I've said before my preferred solution would be some years of high inflation combined with keeping house prices flattish, but then people react horrified at the suggestion of inflation - despite the fact we've had inflation in costs for years which is what has caused this crisis.

    So how do you end the crisis of extremely high house prices without a crash and without inflation?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,290
    While PB Tories are getting hot under the collar about smears, perhaps they can weigh in on this grubby idea ?
    ...No misdeeds alleged. Simply the fact he was there when [insert crime here] outraged the populace. Invite the inference. Not refuted by Starmer who does not even know it has been sent. Worth a try....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,683

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lead item on BBC News website

    "Pandora Papers: Secret wealth and dealings of world leaders exposed"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780465

    And again property being used as an investment instead of somewhere to live.

    I'm really beginning to think that we need a tremendous property crash in this country and who cares if it leads to negative equity? If you're not planning on moving and are keeping up with your repayments then negative equity is just a figure.
    Times change.

    Let’s say you are offered a great career opportunity the other side of the country. Can’t move because of negative equity? That’s bad luck for you.
    Indeed that's a shame. However those looking to move while having negative equity will benefit from reduced house prices too so swings and roundabouts.

    But can't live where you already are because of insane house prices meaning you're essentially in negative equity without moving? That's even worse and a bigger evil.
    How about destroying the banking system?

    Believe me house prices are too high. But a crash is not the answer.
    That's the problem though, people react with abject horror at any proposed solution.

    As I've said before my preferred solution would be some years of high inflation combined with keeping house prices flattish, but then people react horrified at the suggestion of inflation - despite the fact we've had inflation in costs for years which is what has caused this crisis.

    So how do you end the crisis of extremely high house prices without a crash and without inflation?
    It would certainly help to start targeting those investing in houses rather than living in them, especially where property is left empty.
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