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The German election looks very tight – politicalbetting.com

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713
    edited September 2021

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    I said that earlier, but HY and others disagreed with me. HY said some rubbish about its not an international yardstick, but yardstick for each nation. Which is rubbish and it means US Dems are ‘left’ on basis they are to the left of GOP.

    You are absolutely right Big G, Boris is nationalising, Biden will never consider, that is the sort of thing the yardstick is measured on.
    That is rubbish. Biden is far left of Boris on immigration or the culture wars for example or Brexit and the Irish Sea border.

    Biden is also proposing to raise more taxes on the rich than Boris is and to spend more than any US President since LBJ.

    The GOP are in the IDU with the Tories and the CDU/CSU, that does not mean they are ideologically identical but they are all the main conservative or centre right parties in their countries. As are other parties in the IDU like the Spanish PP, the Canadian Conservatives or the Australian Liberals and the NZ Nationals.

    The Democrats sister parties are Labour and the SPD, hence Blair, Clinton and Schroder were so chummy.

    The Democrats are NOT members of The Progressive Alliance OR the Socialist International.
    Nor is Macron's En Marche or the Canadian Liberals, does not make them conservative parties either.

    You are also wrong on the Progressive Alliance, the Democrats are in that Alliance with UK Labour

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Alliance
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    Farooq said:

    gealbhan said:

    Farooq said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    I said that earlier, but HY and others disagreed with me. HY said some rubbish about its not an international yardstick, but yardstick for each nation. Which is rubbish and it means US Dems are ‘left’ on basis they are to the left of GOP.

    You are absolutely right Big G, Boris is nationalising, Biden will never consider, that is the sort of thing the yardstick is measured on.
    You can choose one metric to compare two politicians on, and make one appear more left than the other.
    But taken across the piece, Biden is to the left of Boris, no question.
    I’m definitely questioning that! You are wrong. It’s who you vote with on economics, tax and spend, nationalise privatise, welfare or cut welfare that really matters, and that puts Biden and most Dems much to the right of Boris.
    Who you vote with is entirely irrelevant, what you vote for is what counts.
    Look down this nice summary. Much of what's in there falls into the first two categories:
    1. Yes, I could imagine Boris doing that.
    2. No, that's probably too left wing for Boris.
    3. No, that's probably too right wing for Boris.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Joe_Biden#Tax
    Thanks I had a look. I stand by what I said. UK and US in different place as nations. The US more right wing, more capitalist. They don’t have a left right split in politics like we have, two right of centre parties in relation to capitalism and socialism GOP and Dem voting actually come from the Civil War.

    Boris Downing Street is to the left economically to Biden’s White House.
    No it isn't, Biden is left of Boris. Though you could equally make the argument that the Nordic countries conservative parties are sometimes left of the UK Labour Party, certainly New Labour let alone the Tories.

    The US is the most rightwing nation in the western world on most issues (apart from maybe Switzerland) so obviously its politics are more rightwing. I would accept Boris is left of Trump however he is not left of Biden and certainly not left of Sanders.

    When we had Thatcher as PM though she was so rightwing in UK terms she was even right of the GOP president in her final term, Bush Snr
    Would you call New Labour centre left or centre? They were without doubt centre right on the economic yardstick.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 14,647

    Some come back from the SPD.

    Indeed, they were on 15% in the polls just a couple of months ago, in third place.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,386

    @HYUFD and other PB Tories:

    "UK suspends competition law to boost fuel supplies"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620

    But wait... I thought competition was the solution to everything?

    Brexit is socialism :lol:
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,196
    Narrator: “Boris Johnson is also cutting back the British army to the smallest number of soldiers since the war of the Spanish Succession in 1715.” https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1442218884900311045
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    RobD said:

    @HYUFD and other PB Tories:

    "UK suspends competition law to boost fuel supplies"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620

    But wait... I thought competition was the solution to everything?

    You must admit the circumstances aren't normal!
    New Normal!
  • Andy_JS said:

    Some come back from the SPD.

    Indeed, they were on 15% in the polls just a couple of months ago, in third place.
    Must give Starmer some hope.

    As I've said before on here, I think once we get into an actual UK election campaign it will be closer than the polls currently say.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,422

    @HYUFD and other PB Tories:

    "UK suspends competition law to boost fuel supplies"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620

    But wait... I thought competition was the solution to everything?

    Short term vs long term? I genuinely believe everything will correct eventually, it’s just that the pain to get there is too much to suffer.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,575
    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    @HYUFD and other PB Tories:

    "UK suspends competition law to boost fuel supplies"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620

    But wait... I thought competition was the solution to everything?

    You must admit the circumstances aren't normal!
    New Normal!
    No, 500% of normal demand can in no way become the new normal.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,830
    Holy cow: Berliners have voted for this law to seize at 'well below market rates' over 200k properties from corporate landlords. The ballot is non-binding and the law may well be unconstitutional, but a dramatic moment nonetheless.

    https://www.dw.com/en/berlin-faces-expropriation-vote-what-happens-if-the-people-say-yes/a-59070328
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 17,550

    Determined to make every graduate under the age of say 40 vote Labour, Johnson presses on:



    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    3m
    FINANCIAL TIMES: No10 plans to cut graduate salary threshold for paying back loans #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Are they taking the piss?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 21,850
    Farooq said:

    gealbhan said:

    Farooq said:

    gealbhan said:

    Farooq said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    I said that earlier, but HY and others disagreed with me. HY said some rubbish about its not an international yardstick, but yardstick for each nation. Which is rubbish and it means US Dems are ‘left’ on basis they are to the left of GOP.

    You are absolutely right Big G, Boris is nationalising, Biden will never consider, that is the sort of thing the yardstick is measured on.
    You can choose one metric to compare two politicians on, and make one appear more left than the other.
    But taken across the piece, Biden is to the left of Boris, no question.
    I’m definitely questioning that! You are wrong. It’s who you vote with on economics, tax and spend, nationalise privatise, welfare or cut welfare that really matters, and that puts Biden and most Dems much to the right of Boris.
    Who you vote with is entirely irrelevant, what you vote for is what counts.
    Look down this nice summary. Much of what's in there falls into the first two categories:
    1. Yes, I could imagine Boris doing that.
    2. No, that's probably too left wing for Boris.
    3. No, that's probably too right wing for Boris.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Joe_Biden#Tax
    Thanks I had a look. I stand by what I said. UK and US in different place as nations. The US more right wing, more capitalist. They don’t have a left right split in politics like we have, two right of centre parties in relation to capitalism and socialism GOP and Dem voting actually come from the Civil War.

    Boris Downing Street is to the left economically to Biden’s White House.
    Appreciate what you're saying about America being generally to the right of Britain, but I think the overlap is stronger than you seem to. In any case, we'll agree to disagree. From a voting point of view, I wouldn't go for either unless forced to by circumstance (that is, I would have voted anti-Trump), so I don't really have any stake in this.
    In any discussion of the American tax system, the huge loopholes/rebates are often forgotten. In part this is why they have had some apparently high rates historically - one part of the political system would raise tax rates to get more money in and (often the same part!) would increase the er... opt outs.

    The UK system is not wonderful perhaps, but is much much better.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,988
    I suggest that Boris Johnson’s political positions are designed to ensure Boris Johnson’s personal advantage. The fact that he is a member of the Conservative Party is because his social circle was, not because of any loyalty to whatever principles the Conservative Party may have.
  • Some come back from the SPD.

    22.52 score - looks pretty firm now - SPD 26, CDU 24.5, Greens 13.9, FDP 11.5, AfD 11.5, Linke 5.0 (probably just safe but the main remaining uncertainty). That makes Red-Green-Red mathrmatically impossible, so SPD-Green-FDP still the most likely.
    Sounds good to me.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,196
    TIMES; Army will be sent in to tackle fuel crisis #TomorrowsPapersToday https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1442237851006025728/photo/1
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,018
    OT We've had visitors this weekend so I have not been following politics but has Starmer actually won today?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    A rise in inheritance tax is a red line, the Tory Party has always been the party that has supported inherited wealth no matter what.

    There would be a huge revolt from members and MPs in the home counties and posh parts of London and rightly so, Boris would probably have to sack him. Hence he will not do it
  • Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Now that I'm sufficiently recovered from last night - London is bouncing. At least Camden is, I don't think it's fresher's week either because everyone looked sort of around 25-30 rather than of student age. We went to two bars and eventually a late night one with a dancefloor playing 90s grunge. Absolutely fucking packed. Queue at the bar was at least 3 people deep and the dancefloor was just rammed. Got offered coke and mandy at least three times as well so London's party drug dealers are definitely back in business as well.

    The whole conversation about masks to stop spread just seems so irrelevant when places like this are open.

    All in all the old normal is back, if you want to experience it. People are out there living the old normal and that is going to become more and more common over the next few months until there's just a few holdouts banging on about stopping the virus and tutting behind their masks at the rest of society.

    Milton Keynes was heaving too. Well the Tesco fuel stop was..
    Based on my conversations with friends and family and passing acquaintances in the last week or so I would say that as the school reopening has not led to a huge iSAGE-level surge, most peeps are sayings 'ok, great, that's it, this is over', 'I'm going full speed from now on'.

    may we get Freshers Weeks out of the way first please.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:
    For what it's worth, SPDer has taken the Pied Piper's constituency . . .

    EDIT - most of the constituencies reporting results so far are Bavarian.
    That’s some Hanover.
    You've been Aachen to post that!
    Well, yes, but I had no particular Aix to grind.
    Bonn voyage!
    You'll be Saary
    That's a very poor Erfurt!
    You’re all just having a Wank.
    Don’t make me Baarf
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 47,523
    edited September 2021
    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    And I think what polling on this we have the general population back on on this Big G.

    However, where HY might be right, an important section of Tory support may be in the oppose column?
    As long as it keeps them in their seats they will not complain but what @HYUFD is blinded on, is that the country have moved as a body left wanting more covid regulations and lockdowns if necessary and absolutely spending on the NHS and social care, and listening to him at the UN he is really pushing climate change for all its worth which is very much today's topic

    For all his faults, Boris understands this and is moving onto that agenda and if some of his right wingers complain then he will just carry on anyway
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 6,196
    edited September 2021
    Greens have won Munich South and Stuttgart

    And AfD has picked up several seats from (I think) CDU

    Plus SPD is winning number of formerly CDU (I think) constituencies
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,405
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    A rise in inheritance tax is a red line, the Tory Party has always been the party that has supported inherited wealth no matter what.

    There would be a huge revolt from members and MPs in the home counties and posh parts of London and rightly so, Boris would probably have to sack him. Hence he will not do it
    Can I ask you a hypothetical question.

    If it was proveable that a rise in inheritance tax resulted in better social mobility and economic growth, would you still oppose it?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713
    edited September 2021

    I suggest that Boris Johnson’s political positions are designed to ensure Boris Johnson’s personal advantage. The fact that he is a member of the Conservative Party is because his social circle was, not because of any loyalty to whatever principles the Conservative Party may have.

    He was briefly in the centrist SDP at Oxford in the 1980s which he used as a vehicle to get elected President of the Oxford Union when the SDP was more fashionable at university than the Tories but then so were a few Tory MPs, he is though certainly not centre left
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 21,850
    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT Re Jimmy Saville.
    He groomed an entire nation's Establishment. Using him to have a pop at just the BBC is a bit reductive.
    Strangely. It was widely rumoured about amongst the younger generation. We knew not to go to his club in Manchester. Don't know anyone my age who thought him other than a total creep.
    But our elders and betters couldn't contain their gushing enthusiasm for the living saint amongst us.
    Any forensic dramatisation might expose the hypocrisy of an entire generation.

    His fundamental weirdness was hidden in plain sight. You’d never go near a random who looked like that in the street, but because he was Jimmy Saville, somehow he was ok. I’d love to know the full truth of who new what about him. I know attitudes have changed, and for the better, but you’d have to think some who knew what he did wish they’d tried to do something back then.
    Sex with young groupies was considered a bit of a perk in those days, in a way we would not tolerate now.
    It should not have been 'tolerated' then. The Summer of Love and the swinging sixties have a great deal to answer for. It was often great for men; less so for women.

    On a related note: how the heck is John Peel still revered?
    Indeed, his marriage to an underage American has faded into history, alongside his Seventies slot "Schoolgirl of the week". That many of his groupies were young, and indeed underage is not something he has ever hidden, and while she was 15 he did actually marry her.

    http://andywalmsley.blogspot.com/2014/10/peel-reveals.html?m=1

    I think the difference is one of scale, but also of emphasis. Peel had a transparent excellence at spotting new musical trends that transcends his sexual misbehaviour. His evening show in the Eighties was a cornucopia of the brilliant and the avant garde alongside stuff like The Fall, which no matter how much I listen, I cannot get.
    Cor. Did you really mean that.

    Paedophilia is “sexual misbehaviour”

    His ability to spot good music transcends it?

    FFS

    And Ezra Pound was just funky with his Fascism. As was Dali. And D'Annunzio.

    One can only imagine what would happen in Mao had been a poet of note.... Or Hitler a genius painter.....

  • Determined to make every graduate under the age of say 40 vote Labour, Johnson presses on:



    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    3m
    FINANCIAL TIMES: No10 plans to cut graduate salary threshold for paying back loans #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Doesn't every graduate under 40 vote Labour already?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 14,647
    edited September 2021
    Latest total of votes actually counted in Germany, with 140 of 299 constituencies counted:

    https://www.bundeswahlleiter.de/en/bundestagswahlen/2021/ergebnisse/bund-99.html
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 38,102
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    Why not remind us how things ended for him?
    He left office after 12 years in 2007, the longest serving President post war after Mitterand and was given a state funeral when he died?
    In 2011, the Paris court declared Chirac guilty of diverting public funds and abusing public confidence, giving him a two-year suspended prison sentence
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713

    @HYUFD and other PB Tories:

    "UK suspends competition law to boost fuel supplies"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620

    But wait... I thought competition was the solution to everything?

    I am not a free market liberal and nor is Boris
  • Rayner is a bit AOC isn't she?

    Looks like self-promotion wise she has played a blinder this weekend.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713
    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    Farooq said:

    gealbhan said:

    Farooq said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    I said that earlier, but HY and others disagreed with me. HY said some rubbish about its not an international yardstick, but yardstick for each nation. Which is rubbish and it means US Dems are ‘left’ on basis they are to the left of GOP.

    You are absolutely right Big G, Boris is nationalising, Biden will never consider, that is the sort of thing the yardstick is measured on.
    You can choose one metric to compare two politicians on, and make one appear more left than the other.
    But taken across the piece, Biden is to the left of Boris, no question.
    I’m definitely questioning that! You are wrong. It’s who you vote with on economics, tax and spend, nationalise privatise, welfare or cut welfare that really matters, and that puts Biden and most Dems much to the right of Boris.
    Who you vote with is entirely irrelevant, what you vote for is what counts.
    Look down this nice summary. Much of what's in there falls into the first two categories:
    1. Yes, I could imagine Boris doing that.
    2. No, that's probably too left wing for Boris.
    3. No, that's probably too right wing for Boris.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Joe_Biden#Tax
    Thanks I had a look. I stand by what I said. UK and US in different place as nations. The US more right wing, more capitalist. They don’t have a left right split in politics like we have, two right of centre parties in relation to capitalism and socialism GOP and Dem voting actually come from the Civil War.

    Boris Downing Street is to the left economically to Biden’s White House.
    No it isn't, Biden is left of Boris. Though you could equally make the argument that the Nordic countries conservative parties are sometimes left of the UK Labour Party, certainly New Labour let alone the Tories.

    The US is the most rightwing nation in the western world on most issues (apart from maybe Switzerland) so obviously its politics are more rightwing. I would accept Boris is left of Trump however he is not left of Biden and certainly not left of Sanders.

    When we had Thatcher as PM though she was so rightwing in UK terms she was even right of the GOP president in her final term, Bush Snr
    Would you call New Labour centre left or centre? They were without doubt centre right on the economic yardstick.
    Blair was centrist, Brown was certainly centre left
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 17,550
    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD and other PB Tories:

    "UK suspends competition law to boost fuel supplies"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620

    But wait... I thought competition was the solution to everything?

    I am not a free market liberal and nor is Boris
    Do you believe in anything other than ‘inherited wealth’?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 38,102
    Andy_JS said:

    Freiburg has been won by the Greens.

    I was there just last Wednesday and am not surprised. The town claims to generate more solar power than the entire UK.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,018

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT Re Jimmy Saville.
    He groomed an entire nation's Establishment. Using him to have a pop at just the BBC is a bit reductive.
    Strangely. It was widely rumoured about amongst the younger generation. We knew not to go to his club in Manchester. Don't know anyone my age who thought him other than a total creep.
    But our elders and betters couldn't contain their gushing enthusiasm for the living saint amongst us.
    Any forensic dramatisation might expose the hypocrisy of an entire generation.

    His fundamental weirdness was hidden in plain sight. You’d never go near a random who looked like that in the street, but because he was Jimmy Saville, somehow he was ok. I’d love to know the full truth of who new what about him. I know attitudes have changed, and for the better, but you’d have to think some who knew what he did wish they’d tried to do something back then.
    Sex with young groupies was considered a bit of a perk in those days, in a way we would not tolerate now.
    It should not have been 'tolerated' then. The Summer of Love and the swinging sixties have a great deal to answer for. It was often great for men; less so for women.

    On a related note: how the heck is John Peel still revered?
    Indeed, his marriage to an underage American has faded into history, alongside his Seventies slot "Schoolgirl of the week". That many of his groupies were young, and indeed underage is not something he has ever hidden, and while she was 15 he did actually marry her.

    http://andywalmsley.blogspot.com/2014/10/peel-reveals.html?m=1

    I think the difference is one of scale, but also of emphasis. Peel had a transparent excellence at spotting new musical trends that transcends his sexual misbehaviour. His evening show in the Eighties was a cornucopia of the brilliant and the avant garde alongside stuff like The Fall, which no matter how much I listen, I cannot get.
    Cor. Did you really mean that.

    Paedophilia is “sexual misbehaviour”

    His ability to spot good music transcends it?

    FFS

    And Ezra Pound was just funky with his Fascism. As was Dali. And D'Annunzio.

    One can only imagine what would happen in Mao had been a poet of note.... Or Hitler a genius painter.....

    If Hitler had been a genius painter we may have been spared the Third Reich.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,988
    HYUFD said:

    I suggest that Boris Johnson’s political positions are designed to ensure Boris Johnson’s personal advantage. The fact that he is a member of the Conservative Party is because his social circle was, not because of any loyalty to whatever principles the Conservative Party may have.

    He was briefly in the centrist SDP at Oxford in the 1980s which he used as a vehicle to get elected President of the Oxford Union when the SDP was more fashionable at university than the Tories but then so were a few Tory MPs, he is though certainly not centre left
    Personal advantage again; at the time it looked the SDP was going to sweep the board. And he was quite happy to lie to the Queen.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Some come back from the SPD.

    Indeed, they were on 15% in the polls just a couple of months ago, in third place.
    Must give Starmer some hope.

    As I've said before on here, I think once we get into an actual UK election campaign it will be closer than the polls currently say.
    I expect the conservatives to take a hit in the polls but I agree and nobody can have a clue at present
  • IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Freiburg has been won by the Greens.

    I was there just last Wednesday and am not surprised. The town claims to generate more solar power than the entire UK.
    Hah! But I bet we beat them hollow on wind.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    I never said he was near Corbyn or Rayner, but he is left of centre no matter what you may claim
    He isn't. if he was he would be increasing immigration, increasing welfare spending, increasing income tax and IHT and very woke
    Visa quotas increasing immigration, pension and benefits rises in Apri, of approximately 3.4%, NI increases and rumours of inheritance tax changes rather contradicts your view
    A points system to replace EU free movement, triple lock ended and pensions frozen, NI raised to avoid income tax and IHT rises and most nations fund healthcare through insurance anyway
    Pensions are not frozen, they rise by cpi in April if above 2.5% and current forecast is 3.4%

    NI rise is not connected to the rumoured rise in IHT and is nowhere near enough for social care

    And I have no idea what you are talking about most fund health care through insurance, a privileged few maybe

    I cannot believe you write such nonsense
    Most US and continental healthcare is funded via insurance
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,386

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD and other PB Tories:

    "UK suspends competition law to boost fuel supplies"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620

    But wait... I thought competition was the solution to everything?

    I am not a free market liberal and nor is Boris
    Do you believe in anything other than ‘inherited wealth’?
    Yes, the inviolability and elevation to canon of any statement made by Nicola Sturgeon.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 38,102
    HYUFD said:

    I suggest that Boris Johnson’s political positions are designed to ensure Boris Johnson’s personal advantage. The fact that he is a member of the Conservative Party is because his social circle was, not because of any loyalty to whatever principles the Conservative Party may have.

    He was briefly in the centrist SDP at Oxford in the 1980s which he used as a vehicle to get elected President of the Oxford Union when the SDP was more fashionable at university than the Tories but then so were a few Tory MPs, he is though certainly not centre left
    Keep digging…
  • Determined to make every graduate under the age of say 40 vote Labour, Johnson presses on:



    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    3m
    FINANCIAL TIMES: No10 plans to cut graduate salary threshold for paying back loans #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Are they taking the piss?
    Wait for the budget maybe - it is in a few weeks
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713
    edited September 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    A rise in inheritance tax is a red line, the Tory Party has always been the party that has supported inherited wealth no matter what.

    There would be a huge revolt from members and MPs in the home counties and posh parts of London and rightly so, Boris would probably have to sack him. Hence he will not do it
    Can I ask you a hypothetical question.

    If it was proveable that a rise in inheritance tax resulted in better social mobility and economic growth, would you still oppose it?
    Yes because it is not conservative and anti family and anti preservation of wealth within the family.

    Not that it would anyway, you improve social mobility by improving education standards and choice and getting more middle class jobs available not by taking peoples houses. You get economic growth by cutting taxes across the board not raising them
  • Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT Re Jimmy Saville.
    He groomed an entire nation's Establishment. Using him to have a pop at just the BBC is a bit reductive.
    Strangely. It was widely rumoured about amongst the younger generation. We knew not to go to his club in Manchester. Don't know anyone my age who thought him other than a total creep.
    But our elders and betters couldn't contain their gushing enthusiasm for the living saint amongst us.
    Any forensic dramatisation might expose the hypocrisy of an entire generation.

    His fundamental weirdness was hidden in plain sight. You’d never go near a random who looked like that in the street, but because he was Jimmy Saville, somehow he was ok. I’d love to know the full truth of who new what about him. I know attitudes have changed, and for the better, but you’d have to think some who knew what he did wish they’d tried to do something back then.
    Sex with young groupies was considered a bit of a perk in those days, in a way we would not tolerate now.
    It should not have been 'tolerated' then. The Summer of Love and the swinging sixties have a great deal to answer for. It was often great for men; less so for women.

    On a related note: how the heck is John Peel still revered?
    Indeed, his marriage to an underage American has faded into history, alongside his Seventies slot "Schoolgirl of the week". That many of his groupies were young, and indeed underage is not something he has ever hidden, and while she was 15 he did actually marry her.

    http://andywalmsley.blogspot.com/2014/10/peel-reveals.html?m=1

    I think the difference is one of scale, but also of emphasis. Peel had a transparent excellence at spotting new musical trends that transcends his sexual misbehaviour. His evening show in the Eighties was a cornucopia of the brilliant and the avant garde alongside stuff like The Fall, which no matter how much I listen, I cannot get.
    Cor. Did you really mean that.

    Paedophilia is “sexual misbehaviour”

    His ability to spot good music transcends it?

    FFS

    And Ezra Pound was just funky with his Fascism. As was Dali. And D'Annunzio.

    One can only imagine what would happen in Mao had been a poet of note.... Or Hitler a genius painter.....

    FYI, recently saw episode of "Cajun Pawn Stars" filmed in Alexandria, Louisiana that featured the ex-wife of Jerry Lee Lewis, whom he married when she was 13.

    BTW, she said that she really didn't realize what a BIG deal that was, until she accompanied JLL on a tour of the UK, when their relationship went public . . . and the you-know-what hit the fan.
  • I suggest that Boris Johnson’s political positions are designed to ensure Boris Johnson’s personal advantage. The fact that he is a member of the Conservative Party is because his social circle was, not because of any loyalty to whatever principles the Conservative Party may have.

    I have no doubt that is spot on and we are witnessing it
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,018
    RobD said:

    @HYUFD and other PB Tories:

    "UK suspends competition law to boost fuel supplies"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620

    But wait... I thought competition was the solution to everything?

    You must admit the circumstances aren't normal!
    ?? If market competition only works in 'normal' circumstances who determines 'normal'?
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638

    OT We've had visitors this weekend so I have not been following politics but has Starmer actually won today?

    He’s ensured the Greens get a Labour conference boost, and said that some men have cervixes I think
  • Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT Re Jimmy Saville.
    He groomed an entire nation's Establishment. Using him to have a pop at just the BBC is a bit reductive.
    Strangely. It was widely rumoured about amongst the younger generation. We knew not to go to his club in Manchester. Don't know anyone my age who thought him other than a total creep.
    But our elders and betters couldn't contain their gushing enthusiasm for the living saint amongst us.
    Any forensic dramatisation might expose the hypocrisy of an entire generation.

    His fundamental weirdness was hidden in plain sight. You’d never go near a random who looked like that in the street, but because he was Jimmy Saville, somehow he was ok. I’d love to know the full truth of who new what about him. I know attitudes have changed, and for the better, but you’d have to think some who knew what he did wish they’d tried to do something back then.
    Sex with young groupies was considered a bit of a perk in those days, in a way we would not tolerate now.
    It should not have been 'tolerated' then. The Summer of Love and the swinging sixties have a great deal to answer for. It was often great for men; less so for women.

    On a related note: how the heck is John Peel still revered?
    Indeed, his marriage to an underage American has faded into history, alongside his Seventies slot "Schoolgirl of the week". That many of his groupies were young, and indeed underage is not something he has ever hidden, and while she was 15 he did actually marry her.

    http://andywalmsley.blogspot.com/2014/10/peel-reveals.html?m=1

    I think the difference is one of scale, but also of emphasis. Peel had a transparent excellence at spotting new musical trends that transcends his sexual misbehaviour. His evening show in the Eighties was a cornucopia of the brilliant and the avant garde alongside stuff like The Fall, which no matter how much I listen, I cannot get.
    Cor. Did you really mean that.

    Paedophilia is “sexual misbehaviour”

    His ability to spot good music transcends it?

    FFS

    And Ezra Pound was just funky with his Fascism. As was Dali. And D'Annunzio.

    One can only imagine what would happen in Mao had been a poet of note.... Or Hitler a genius painter.....

    If Hitler had been a genius painter we may have been spared the Third Reich.
    Even if he wasn't a genius but had got into the school of art he applied to we might have been spared.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 17,550
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    A rise in inheritance tax is a red line, the Tory Party has always been the party that has supported inherited wealth no matter what.

    There would be a huge revolt from members and MPs in the home counties and posh parts of London and rightly so, Boris would probably have to sack him. Hence he will not do it
    Can I ask you a hypothetical question.

    If it was proveable that a rise in inheritance tax resulted in better social mobility and economic growth, would you still oppose it?
    Yes because it is not conservative and anti family and anti preservation of wealth within the family.

    Not that it would anyway, you improve social mobility by improving education standards and choice and getting more middle class jobs available not by taking peoples houses. You get economic growth by cutting taxes across the board not raising them
    Then why is your party raising all the taxes mate?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 14,647
    The AfD seem to be doing surprisingly well in Saxony and Thuringia. They've picked up a number of constituencies in those areas.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 21,850

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT Re Jimmy Saville.
    He groomed an entire nation's Establishment. Using him to have a pop at just the BBC is a bit reductive.
    Strangely. It was widely rumoured about amongst the younger generation. We knew not to go to his club in Manchester. Don't know anyone my age who thought him other than a total creep.
    But our elders and betters couldn't contain their gushing enthusiasm for the living saint amongst us.
    Any forensic dramatisation might expose the hypocrisy of an entire generation.

    His fundamental weirdness was hidden in plain sight. You’d never go near a random who looked like that in the street, but because he was Jimmy Saville, somehow he was ok. I’d love to know the full truth of who new what about him. I know attitudes have changed, and for the better, but you’d have to think some who knew what he did wish they’d tried to do something back then.
    Sex with young groupies was considered a bit of a perk in those days, in a way we would not tolerate now.
    It should not have been 'tolerated' then. The Summer of Love and the swinging sixties have a great deal to answer for. It was often great for men; less so for women.

    On a related note: how the heck is John Peel still revered?
    Indeed, his marriage to an underage American has faded into history, alongside his Seventies slot "Schoolgirl of the week". That many of his groupies were young, and indeed underage is not something he has ever hidden, and while she was 15 he did actually marry her.

    http://andywalmsley.blogspot.com/2014/10/peel-reveals.html?m=1

    I think the difference is one of scale, but also of emphasis. Peel had a transparent excellence at spotting new musical trends that transcends his sexual misbehaviour. His evening show in the Eighties was a cornucopia of the brilliant and the avant garde alongside stuff like The Fall, which no matter how much I listen, I cannot get.
    Cor. Did you really mean that.

    Paedophilia is “sexual misbehaviour”

    His ability to spot good music transcends it?

    FFS

    And Ezra Pound was just funky with his Fascism. As was Dali. And D'Annunzio.

    One can only imagine what would happen in Mao had been a poet of note.... Or Hitler a genius painter.....

    If Hitler had been a genius painter we may have been spared the Third Reich.
    Maybe - but the point stands. The whole "Great artists* get a pass" bullshit makes want to release the safety-catch of my Browning.....

    *Personally I don't think Pound or D'Annunzio were great artists. Dali was very good early on, but ended up running a production line of garbage.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713
    edited September 2021

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD and other PB Tories:

    "UK suspends competition law to boost fuel supplies"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620

    But wait... I thought competition was the solution to everything?

    I am not a free market liberal and nor is Boris
    Do you believe in anything other than ‘inherited wealth’?
    The monarchy and the Church of England and the Union.

    I am also mildly socially conservative, and relatively hawkish in foreign policy and support choice in public services.

    Otherwise I am generally centrist economically
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,431
    edited September 2021
    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    Farooq said:

    gealbhan said:

    Farooq said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    I said that earlier, but HY and others disagreed with me. HY said some rubbish about its not an international yardstick, but yardstick for each nation. Which is rubbish and it means US Dems are ‘left’ on basis they are to the left of GOP.

    You are absolutely right Big G, Boris is nationalising, Biden will never consider, that is the sort of thing the yardstick is measured on.
    You can choose one metric to compare two politicians on, and make one appear more left than the other.
    But taken across the piece, Biden is to the left of Boris, no question.
    I’m definitely questioning that! You are wrong. It’s who you vote with on economics, tax and spend, nationalise privatise, welfare or cut welfare that really matters, and that puts Biden and most Dems much to the right of Boris.
    Who you vote with is entirely irrelevant, what you vote for is what counts.
    Look down this nice summary. Much of what's in there falls into the first two categories:
    1. Yes, I could imagine Boris doing that.
    2. No, that's probably too left wing for Boris.
    3. No, that's probably too right wing for Boris.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Joe_Biden#Tax
    Thanks I had a look. I stand by what I said. UK and US in different place as nations. The US more right wing, more capitalist. They don’t have a left right split in politics like we have, two right of centre parties in relation to capitalism and socialism GOP and Dem voting actually come from the Civil War.

    Boris Downing Street is to the left economically to Biden’s White House.
    No it isn't, Biden is left of Boris. Though you could equally make the argument that the Nordic countries conservative parties are sometimes left of the UK Labour Party, certainly New Labour let alone the Tories.

    The US is the most rightwing nation in the western world on most issues (apart from maybe Switzerland) so obviously its politics are more rightwing. I would accept Boris is left of Trump however he is not left of Biden and certainly not left of Sanders.

    When we had Thatcher as PM though she was so rightwing in UK terms she was even right of the GOP president in her final term, Bush Snr
    Would you call New Labour centre left or centre? They were without doubt centre right on the economic yardstick.
    Really? So introducing the minimum wage, pumping huge amounts of money into the public sector (schools, hospitals, Sure Start etc. etc.) and increasing the state pension significantly is centre right economics?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    A rise in inheritance tax is a red line, the Tory Party has always been the party that has supported inherited wealth no matter what.

    There would be a huge revolt from members and MPs in the home counties and posh parts of London and rightly so, Boris would probably have to sack him. Hence he will not do it
    You may have to withdrawn that post next month

    Money has to come from somewhere
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    A rise in inheritance tax is a red line, the Tory Party has always been the party that has supported inherited wealth no matter what.

    There would be a huge revolt from members and MPs in the home counties and posh parts of London and rightly so, Boris would probably have to sack him. Hence he will not do it
    Can I ask you a hypothetical question.

    If it was proveable that a rise in inheritance tax resulted in better social mobility and economic growth, would you still oppose it?
    Yes because it is not conservative and anti family and anti preservation of wealth within the family.

    Not that it would anyway, you improve social mobility by improving education standards and choice and getting more middle class jobs available not by taking peoples houses. You get economic growth by cutting taxes across the board not raising them
    Then why is your party raising all the taxes mate?
    They aren't, NI is not a tax it is National Insurance, income tax and IHT are not going up
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    I said that earlier, but HY and others disagreed with me. HY said some rubbish about its not an international yardstick, but yardstick for each nation. Which is rubbish and it means US Dems are ‘left’ on basis they are to the left of GOP.

    You are absolutely right Big G, Boris is nationalising, Biden will never consider, that is the sort of thing the yardstick is measured on.
    That is rubbish. Biden is far left of Boris on immigration or the culture wars for example or Brexit and the Irish Sea border.

    Biden is also proposing to raise more taxes on the rich than Boris is and to spend more than any US President since LBJ.

    The GOP are in the IDU with the Tories and the CDU/CSU, that does not mean they are ideologically identical but they are all the main conservative or centre right parties in their countries. As are other parties in the IDU like the Spanish PP, the Canadian Conservatives or the Australian Liberals and the NZ Nationals.

    The Democrats sister parties are Labour and the SPD, hence Blair, Clinton and Schroder were so chummy.

    The Democrats are NOT members of The Progressive Alliance OR the Socialist International.
    Nor is Macron's En Marche or the Canadian Liberals, does not make them conservative parties either.

    You are also wrong on the Progressive Alliance, the Democrats are in that Alliance with UK Labour

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Alliance
    Ah, yes you are right. The Wikipedia article on the Democrats didn't list any "international affiliation" in the infobox!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 21,850
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    I never said he was near Corbyn or Rayner, but he is left of centre no matter what you may claim
    He isn't. if he was he would be increasing immigration, increasing welfare spending, increasing income tax and IHT and very woke
    Visa quotas increasing immigration, pension and benefits rises in Apri, of approximately 3.4%, NI increases and rumours of inheritance tax changes rather contradicts your view
    A points system to replace EU free movement, triple lock ended and pensions frozen, NI raised to avoid income tax and IHT rises and most nations fund healthcare through insurance anyway
    Pensions are not frozen, they rise by cpi in April if above 2.5% and current forecast is 3.4%

    NI rise is not connected to the rumoured rise in IHT and is nowhere near enough for social care

    And I have no idea what you are talking about most fund health care through insurance, a privileged few maybe

    I cannot believe you write such nonsense
    Most US and continental healthcare is funded via insurance
    To compare the US and European systems.... just no. They are not even vaguely similar. Apart from the fact that some part of the European systems use an insurance principle.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 17,550
    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD and other PB Tories:

    "UK suspends competition law to boost fuel supplies"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620

    But wait... I thought competition was the solution to everything?

    I am not a free market liberal and nor is Boris
    Do you believe in anything other than ‘inherited wealth’?
    The monarchy and the Church of England and the Union.

    I am also mildly socially conservative, and relatively hawkish in foreign policy and support choice in public services.

    Otherwise I am generally centrist economically
    I’ll take that as a no
  • HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    A rise in inheritance tax is a red line, the Tory Party has always been the party that has supported inherited wealth no matter what.

    There would be a huge revolt from members and MPs in the home counties and posh parts of London and rightly so, Boris would probably have to sack him. Hence he will not do it
    Can I ask you a hypothetical question.

    If it was proveable that a rise in inheritance tax resulted in better social mobility and economic growth, would you still oppose it?
    Yes because it is not conservative and anti family and anti preservation of wealth within the family.

    Not that it would anyway, you improve social mobility by improving education standards and choice and getting more middle class jobs available not by taking peoples houses. You get economic growth by cutting taxes across the board not raising them
    People relying on inheritance or family handouts does not 'improve social mobility'. It makes it harder for those from poorer backgrounds to get on!

    😠
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,575

    RobD said:

    @HYUFD and other PB Tories:

    "UK suspends competition law to boost fuel supplies"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620

    But wait... I thought competition was the solution to everything?

    You must admit the circumstances aren't normal!
    ?? If market competition only works in 'normal' circumstances who determines 'normal'?
    It's why governments have contingency plans for a whole range of different eventualities. to deal with circumstances that aren't "normal". A run on fuel is not normal. Makes sense things might have to be done different temporarily until things revert back to normal.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,018
    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD and other PB Tories:

    "UK suspends competition law to boost fuel supplies"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620

    But wait... I thought competition was the solution to everything?

    I am not a free market liberal and nor is Boris
    Do you believe in anything other than ‘inherited wealth’?
    The monarchy and the Church of England and the Union.

    I am also mildly socially conservative, and relatively hawkish in foreign policy and support choice in public services.

    Otherwise I am generally centrist economically
    What would be to the right of you economically?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    A rise in inheritance tax is a red line, the Tory Party has always been the party that has supported inherited wealth no matter what.

    There would be a huge revolt from members and MPs in the home counties and posh parts of London and rightly so, Boris would probably have to sack him. Hence he will not do it
    You may have to withdrawn that post next month

    Money has to come from somewhere
    I'm sure that they can squeeze a bit more out of poor kids, don't worry.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    And I think what polling on this we have the general population back on on this Big G.

    However, where HY might be right, an important section of Tory support may be in the oppose column?
    As long as it keeps them in their seats they will not complain but what @HYUFD is blinded on, is that the country have moved as a body left wanting more covid regulations and lockdowns if necessary and absolutely spending on the NHS and social care, and listening to him at the UN he is really pushing climate change for all its worth which is very much today's topic

    For all his faults, Boris understands this and is moving onto that agenda and if some of his right wingers complain then he will just carry on anyway
    59% of voters think inheritance tax is unfair, including 67% of Conservative voters, it is the most unpopular tax there is

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/03/19/inheritance-tax-most-unfair
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,677

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT Re Jimmy Saville.
    He groomed an entire nation's Establishment. Using him to have a pop at just the BBC is a bit reductive.
    Strangely. It was widely rumoured about amongst the younger generation. We knew not to go to his club in Manchester. Don't know anyone my age who thought him other than a total creep.
    But our elders and betters couldn't contain their gushing enthusiasm for the living saint amongst us.
    Any forensic dramatisation might expose the hypocrisy of an entire generation.

    His fundamental weirdness was hidden in plain sight. You’d never go near a random who looked like that in the street, but because he was Jimmy Saville, somehow he was ok. I’d love to know the full truth of who new what about him. I know attitudes have changed, and for the better, but you’d have to think some who knew what he did wish they’d tried to do something back then.
    Sex with young groupies was considered a bit of a perk in those days, in a way we would not tolerate now.
    It should not have been 'tolerated' then. The Summer of Love and the swinging sixties have a great deal to answer for. It was often great for men; less so for women.

    On a related note: how the heck is John Peel still revered?
    Indeed, his marriage to an underage American has faded into history, alongside his Seventies slot "Schoolgirl of the week". That many of his groupies were young, and indeed underage is not something he has ever hidden, and while she was 15 he did actually marry her.

    http://andywalmsley.blogspot.com/2014/10/peel-reveals.html?m=1

    I think the difference is one of scale, but also of emphasis. Peel had a transparent excellence at spotting new musical trends that transcends his sexual misbehaviour. His evening show in the Eighties was a cornucopia of the brilliant and the avant garde alongside stuff like The Fall, which no matter how much I listen, I cannot get.
    Cor. Did you really mean that.

    Paedophilia is “sexual misbehaviour”

    His ability to spot good music transcends it?

    FFS

    And Ezra Pound was just funky with his Fascism. As was Dali. And D'Annunzio.

    One can only imagine what would happen in Mao had been a poet of note.... Or Hitler a genius painter.....

    Yes, but Peel was fairly typical of his time in the music business. There are fairly well authenticated similar stories about David Bowie with a 14 year old for example. Plenty more with still living musicians too, which I shall not mention but easy to find if you look, including some of the biggest names of British music.

    My point was that some things considered wrong now were not then (and vice versa too).

    It is like cancelling Churchill because he was a racist and white supremacist, or Orwell for anti-semitism and homophobia. None of these were unusual views for their time.

    I am not saying that John Peels musical influence permits such behaviour, so much as saying that life was different back then, and that plenty of historical figures did things that would be considered very differently if done today.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,018

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT Re Jimmy Saville.
    He groomed an entire nation's Establishment. Using him to have a pop at just the BBC is a bit reductive.
    Strangely. It was widely rumoured about amongst the younger generation. We knew not to go to his club in Manchester. Don't know anyone my age who thought him other than a total creep.
    But our elders and betters couldn't contain their gushing enthusiasm for the living saint amongst us.
    Any forensic dramatisation might expose the hypocrisy of an entire generation.

    His fundamental weirdness was hidden in plain sight. You’d never go near a random who looked like that in the street, but because he was Jimmy Saville, somehow he was ok. I’d love to know the full truth of who new what about him. I know attitudes have changed, and for the better, but you’d have to think some who knew what he did wish they’d tried to do something back then.
    Sex with young groupies was considered a bit of a perk in those days, in a way we would not tolerate now.
    It should not have been 'tolerated' then. The Summer of Love and the swinging sixties have a great deal to answer for. It was often great for men; less so for women.

    On a related note: how the heck is John Peel still revered?
    Indeed, his marriage to an underage American has faded into history, alongside his Seventies slot "Schoolgirl of the week". That many of his groupies were young, and indeed underage is not something he has ever hidden, and while she was 15 he did actually marry her.

    http://andywalmsley.blogspot.com/2014/10/peel-reveals.html?m=1

    I think the difference is one of scale, but also of emphasis. Peel had a transparent excellence at spotting new musical trends that transcends his sexual misbehaviour. His evening show in the Eighties was a cornucopia of the brilliant and the avant garde alongside stuff like The Fall, which no matter how much I listen, I cannot get.
    Cor. Did you really mean that.

    Paedophilia is “sexual misbehaviour”

    His ability to spot good music transcends it?

    FFS

    And Ezra Pound was just funky with his Fascism. As was Dali. And D'Annunzio.

    One can only imagine what would happen in Mao had been a poet of note.... Or Hitler a genius painter.....

    If Hitler had been a genius painter we may have been spared the Third Reich.
    Maybe - but the point stands. The whole "Great artists* get a pass" bullshit makes want to release the safety-catch of my Browning.....
    Robert Browning or Elizabeth Barrett Browning?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    A rise in inheritance tax is a red line, the Tory Party has always been the party that has supported inherited wealth no matter what.

    There would be a huge revolt from members and MPs in the home counties and posh parts of London and rightly so, Boris would probably have to sack him. Hence he will not do it
    You may have to withdrawn that post next month

    Money has to come from somewhere
    I'm sure that they can squeeze a bit more out of poor kids, don't worry.
    No - this budget has to start tackling wealth and I have reason to believe Rishi will step up

    Let's see
  • Linke just under 3% with over half the vote counted. BUT no returns yet from Berlin which is their best turf.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496
    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD and other PB Tories:

    "UK suspends competition law to boost fuel supplies"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620

    But wait... I thought competition was the solution to everything?

    I am not a free market liberal and nor is Boris
    That was a hair's breadth away from being "I am not a number, I am a free man"

    Johnson is coming over as a high taxation interventionist. I might be warming to his politics.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 6,382
    After 159/299 seats:

    CDU/CSU 30.0
    SPD 26.4

    Is that right? Seems contrary to narrative?

    https://www.bundeswahlleiter.de/en/bundestagswahlen/2021/ergebnisse/bund-99.html
  • Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT Re Jimmy Saville.
    He groomed an entire nation's Establishment. Using him to have a pop at just the BBC is a bit reductive.
    Strangely. It was widely rumoured about amongst the younger generation. We knew not to go to his club in Manchester. Don't know anyone my age who thought him other than a total creep.
    But our elders and betters couldn't contain their gushing enthusiasm for the living saint amongst us.
    Any forensic dramatisation might expose the hypocrisy of an entire generation.

    His fundamental weirdness was hidden in plain sight. You’d never go near a random who looked like that in the street, but because he was Jimmy Saville, somehow he was ok. I’d love to know the full truth of who new what about him. I know attitudes have changed, and for the better, but you’d have to think some who knew what he did wish they’d tried to do something back then.
    Sex with young groupies was considered a bit of a perk in those days, in a way we would not tolerate now.
    It should not have been 'tolerated' then. The Summer of Love and the swinging sixties have a great deal to answer for. It was often great for men; less so for women.

    On a related note: how the heck is John Peel still revered?
    Indeed, his marriage to an underage American has faded into history, alongside his Seventies slot "Schoolgirl of the week". That many of his groupies were young, and indeed underage is not something he has ever hidden, and while she was 15 he did actually marry her.

    http://andywalmsley.blogspot.com/2014/10/peel-reveals.html?m=1

    I think the difference is one of scale, but also of emphasis. Peel had a transparent excellence at spotting new musical trends that transcends his sexual misbehaviour. His evening show in the Eighties was a cornucopia of the brilliant and the avant garde alongside stuff like The Fall, which no matter how much I listen, I cannot get.
    Cor. Did you really mean that.

    Paedophilia is “sexual misbehaviour”

    His ability to spot good music transcends it?

    FFS

    And Ezra Pound was just funky with his Fascism. As was Dali. And D'Annunzio.

    One can only imagine what would happen in Mao had been a poet of note.... Or Hitler a genius painter.....

    If Hitler had been a genius painter we may have been spared the Third Reich.
    Maybe - but the point stands. The whole "Great artists* get a pass" bullshit makes want to release the safety-catch of my Browning.....
    Robert Browning or Elizabeth Barrett Browning?
    Gravy?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713

    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD and other PB Tories:

    "UK suspends competition law to boost fuel supplies"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620

    But wait... I thought competition was the solution to everything?

    I am not a free market liberal and nor is Boris
    Do you believe in anything other than ‘inherited wealth’?
    The monarchy and the Church of England and the Union.

    I am also mildly socially conservative, and relatively hawkish in foreign policy and support choice in public services.

    Otherwise I am generally centrist economically
    What would be to the right of you economically?
    I opposed cutting spending to 35% of gdp for example as Osborne wanted, 35-40% is fine by me.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    @HYUFD and other PB Tories:

    "UK suspends competition law to boost fuel supplies"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620

    But wait... I thought competition was the solution to everything?

    You must admit the circumstances aren't normal!
    ?? If market competition only works in 'normal' circumstances who determines 'normal'?
    It's why governments have contingency plans for a whole range of different eventualities. to deal with circumstances that aren't "normal". A run on fuel is not normal. Makes sense things might have to be done different temporarily until things revert back to normal.
    Yes. I don't really have views on market competition and the like - I don't really understand such things - but as hard as it may be to determine what is normal sometimes, it seems pretty self evident that just because you do something in an extreme moment, or stop doing something in an extreme moment, it doesn't prove that thing must be right to do/ not do in normal times.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 14,647
    DW now projecting Die Linke to get 4.9%.

    https://www.dw.com/en/media-center/live-tv/s-100825
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,440
    Boris Johnson is NOT a left of centre politician. C'mon. We know this game. It just seeks to redefine the right as being centre ground and the true left as being something totally extreme and off the scale.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    A rise in inheritance tax is a red line, the Tory Party has always been the party that has supported inherited wealth no matter what.

    There would be a huge revolt from members and MPs in the home counties and posh parts of London and rightly so, Boris would probably have to sack him. Hence he will not do it
    Can I ask you a hypothetical question.

    If it was proveable that a rise in inheritance tax resulted in better social mobility and economic growth, would you still oppose it?
    Yes because it is not conservative and anti family and anti preservation of wealth within the family.

    Not that it would anyway, you improve social mobility by improving education standards and choice and getting more middle class jobs available not by taking peoples houses. You get economic growth by cutting taxes across the board not raising them
    People relying on inheritance or family handouts does not 'improve social mobility'. It makes it harder for those from poorer backgrounds to get on!

    😠
    No it doesn't, you don't improve social mobility by taking peoples' family homes you just end up with even lower home ownership.

    Thatcher's council house sales was a measure that actually did improve social mobility, as did the expansion of white collar jobs in the 1950s and 1960s and as did many grammar schools
  • Andy_JS said:

    The AfD seem to be doing surprisingly well in Saxony and Thuringia. They've picked up a number of constituencies in those areas.

    That was predicted TBH due to the collapse of the CDU. I predicted that the AfD would top the poll on the 2nd vote in both and they seem to be doing better than 2017 if only by 1% or so.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 21,850

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT Re Jimmy Saville.
    He groomed an entire nation's Establishment. Using him to have a pop at just the BBC is a bit reductive.
    Strangely. It was widely rumoured about amongst the younger generation. We knew not to go to his club in Manchester. Don't know anyone my age who thought him other than a total creep.
    But our elders and betters couldn't contain their gushing enthusiasm for the living saint amongst us.
    Any forensic dramatisation might expose the hypocrisy of an entire generation.

    His fundamental weirdness was hidden in plain sight. You’d never go near a random who looked like that in the street, but because he was Jimmy Saville, somehow he was ok. I’d love to know the full truth of who new what about him. I know attitudes have changed, and for the better, but you’d have to think some who knew what he did wish they’d tried to do something back then.
    Sex with young groupies was considered a bit of a perk in those days, in a way we would not tolerate now.
    It should not have been 'tolerated' then. The Summer of Love and the swinging sixties have a great deal to answer for. It was often great for men; less so for women.

    On a related note: how the heck is John Peel still revered?
    Indeed, his marriage to an underage American has faded into history, alongside his Seventies slot "Schoolgirl of the week". That many of his groupies were young, and indeed underage is not something he has ever hidden, and while she was 15 he did actually marry her.

    http://andywalmsley.blogspot.com/2014/10/peel-reveals.html?m=1

    I think the difference is one of scale, but also of emphasis. Peel had a transparent excellence at spotting new musical trends that transcends his sexual misbehaviour. His evening show in the Eighties was a cornucopia of the brilliant and the avant garde alongside stuff like The Fall, which no matter how much I listen, I cannot get.
    Cor. Did you really mean that.

    Paedophilia is “sexual misbehaviour”

    His ability to spot good music transcends it?

    FFS

    And Ezra Pound was just funky with his Fascism. As was Dali. And D'Annunzio.

    One can only imagine what would happen in Mao had been a poet of note.... Or Hitler a genius painter.....

    If Hitler had been a genius painter we may have been spared the Third Reich.
    Maybe - but the point stands. The whole "Great artists* get a pass" bullshit makes want to release the safety-catch of my Browning.....
    Robert Browning or Elizabeth Barrett Browning?
    John - now *that* man was a poet. His work is timeless.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,386
    kinabalu said:

    Boris Johnson is NOT a left of centre politician. C'mon. We know this game. It just seeks to redefine the right as being centre ground and the true left as being something totally extreme and off the scale.

    The Overton funnel
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    A rise in inheritance tax is a red line, the Tory Party has always been the party that has supported inherited wealth no matter what.

    There would be a huge revolt from members and MPs in the home counties and posh parts of London and rightly so, Boris would probably have to sack him. Hence he will not do it
    Can I ask you a hypothetical question.

    If it was proveable that a rise in inheritance tax resulted in better social mobility and economic growth, would you still oppose it?
    Yes because it is not conservative and anti family and anti preservation of wealth within the family.

    Not that it would anyway, you improve social mobility by improving education standards and choice and getting more middle class jobs available not by taking peoples houses. You get economic growth by cutting taxes across the board not raising them
    Then why is your party raising all the taxes mate?
    They aren't, NI is not a tax it is National Insurance, income tax and IHT are not going up
    😂

    This is a banker
    Of the merchant variety?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    I never said he was near Corbyn or Rayner, but he is left of centre no matter what you may claim
    He isn't. if he was he would be increasing immigration, increasing welfare spending, increasing income tax and IHT and very woke
    Visa quotas increasing immigration, pension and benefits rises in Apri, of approximately 3.4%, NI increases and rumours of inheritance tax changes rather contradicts your view
    A points system to replace EU free movement, triple lock ended and pensions frozen, NI raised to avoid income tax and IHT rises and most nations fund healthcare through insurance anyway
    Pensions are not frozen, they rise by cpi in April if above 2.5% and current forecast is 3.4%

    NI rise is not connected to the rumoured rise in IHT and is nowhere near enough for social care

    And I have no idea what you are talking about most fund health care through insurance, a privileged few maybe

    I cannot believe you write such nonsense
    Most US and continental healthcare is funded via insurance
    Irrelevant as that is not the case in the UK
  • MikeL said:

    After 159/299 seats:

    CDU/CSU 30.0
    SPD 26.4

    Is that right? Seems contrary to narrative?

    https://www.bundeswahlleiter.de/en/bundestagswahlen/2021/ergebnisse/bund-99.html

    Function of fact that constituencies in areas favoring the Union (for example Bavaria) have been counted and reported quicker.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496
    rcs1000 said:

    .

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just seen that Kwasi is set to approve the RR mini-nuke reactors.

    I wonder if any of them will ever actually get built.

    I think they're based on the PWR3 design that RR did for the Dreadnought class submarines.

    (And yes, I know that a chunk of the design of PWR3 is American.)
    Which is interesting because that's a highly enriched uranium reactor. The safety implications of that in a civilian nuclear programme will be extremely negative.
    Perhaps not:

    "It would use 4.95% enriched fuel"

    From this:
    https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/nuclear-power-reactors/small-nuclear-power-reactors.aspx
    and this:
    https://aris.iaea.org/PDF/UK-SMR_2020.pdf

    So if they are correct, then the RR SMR would use low-enriched uranium.
    Show me a Tory MP that wants a RollsRoyce mini-nuke in their constituency.
    You don't need to distribute them widely, the national grid still exists. The point of these is that they are manufactured on a production line (sort of) and then shipped to a location. One imagines you'd put 10-15 of these in a single location, probably those places where nuclear power plants already exist, given the infrastructure also already exists there.
    And if one goes up - they all go up! (Or at the very least, go offline....for a few hundred years.)

    It does nothing on security of supply.
    That's not quite true.

    Let's not forget, the other reactors are Chernobyl kept working for a surprisingly long time after the... accident.
    Well that's reassured me here in the Hinkley Point 30km blast zone.
    Don't be such a wuss.

    You should be proud to live near such a monument to French engineering, Chinese money, and British procurement.
    French you say. So the engineering sophistication and reliability of an early Citroen DS.

    Where's my tin hat?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    I never said he was near Corbyn or Rayner, but he is left of centre no matter what you may claim
    He isn't. if he was he would be increasing immigration, increasing welfare spending, increasing income tax and IHT and very woke
    Visa quotas increasing immigration, pension and benefits rises in Apri, of approximately 3.4%, NI increases and rumours of inheritance tax changes rather contradicts your view
    A points system to replace EU free movement, triple lock ended and pensions frozen, NI raised to avoid income tax and IHT rises and most nations fund healthcare through insurance anyway
    Pensions are not frozen, they rise by cpi in April if above 2.5% and current forecast is 3.4%

    NI rise is not connected to the rumoured rise in IHT and is nowhere near enough for social care

    And I have no idea what you are talking about most fund health care through insurance, a privileged few maybe

    I cannot believe you write such nonsense
    Most US and continental healthcare is funded via insurance
    Irrelevant as that is not the case in the UK
    The NI rise is mainly to fund health and social care.

    Lloyd George set up NI to fund healthcare, the state pension and unemployment benefits
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    A rise in inheritance tax is a red line, the Tory Party has always been the party that has supported inherited wealth no matter what.

    There would be a huge revolt from members and MPs in the home counties and posh parts of London and rightly so, Boris would probably have to sack him. Hence he will not do it
    Can I ask you a hypothetical question.

    If it was proveable that a rise in inheritance tax resulted in better social mobility and economic growth, would you still oppose it?
    Yes because it is not conservative and anti family and anti preservation of wealth within the family.

    Not that it would anyway, you improve social mobility by improving education standards and choice and getting more middle class jobs available not by taking peoples houses. You get economic growth by cutting taxes across the board not raising them
    Then why is your party raising all the taxes mate?
    They aren't, NI is not a tax it is National Insurance, income tax and IHT are not going up
    Yet
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,368
    FT reporting that the treasury is considering lowering the student loan repayment threshold to below 20k. If that goes through this government will have cut my take home pay as a new grad by ~£150/month between that and the NI tax hike.

    The treasury desperately needs some young people in it, if so they'd cotton on to just how deeply popular, and fiscally beneficial putting pensioners into the thunderdome would be.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,123
    Andy_JS said:

    DW now projecting Die Linke to get 4.9%.

    https://www.dw.com/en/media-center/live-tv/s-100825

    But die Linke wil probably get 3 Direktmandate so be allowed their national %ge of seats.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713
    edited September 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    A rise in inheritance tax is a red line, the Tory Party has always been the party that has supported inherited wealth no matter what.

    There would be a huge revolt from members and MPs in the home counties and posh parts of London and rightly so, Boris would probably have to sack him. Hence he will not do it
    Can I ask you a hypothetical question.

    If it was proveable that a rise in inheritance tax resulted in better social mobility and economic growth, would you still oppose it?
    Yes because it is not conservative and anti family and anti preservation of wealth within the family.

    Not that it would anyway, you improve social mobility by improving education standards and choice and getting more middle class jobs available not by taking peoples houses. You get economic growth by cutting taxes across the board not raising them
    Then why is your party raising all the taxes mate?
    They aren't, NI is not a tax it is National Insurance, income tax and IHT are not going up
    Yet
    They aren't, Tory voters would defect en masse to RefUK in the home counties and London if IHT went up or stay at home at the next election. Thus bang goes the Tory majority.

    Boris knows that and would sack Sunak if he tried, he will not repeat the disaster of May's dementia tax that lost her her majority
  • HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    And I think what polling on this we have the general population back on on this Big G.

    However, where HY might be right, an important section of Tory support may be in the oppose column?
    As long as it keeps them in their seats they will not complain but what @HYUFD is blinded on, is that the country have moved as a body left wanting more covid regulations and lockdowns if necessary and absolutely spending on the NHS and social care, and listening to him at the UN he is really pushing climate change for all its worth which is very much today's topic

    For all his faults, Boris understands this and is moving onto that agenda and if some of his right wingers complain then he will just carry on anyway
    59% of voters think inheritance tax is unfair, including 67% of Conservative voters, it is the most unpopular tax there is

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/03/19/inheritance-tax-most-unfair
    It is the correct thing to do and you may find Rishi does the right thing
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 21,850

    rcs1000 said:

    .

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just seen that Kwasi is set to approve the RR mini-nuke reactors.

    I wonder if any of them will ever actually get built.

    I think they're based on the PWR3 design that RR did for the Dreadnought class submarines.

    (And yes, I know that a chunk of the design of PWR3 is American.)
    Which is interesting because that's a highly enriched uranium reactor. The safety implications of that in a civilian nuclear programme will be extremely negative.
    Perhaps not:

    "It would use 4.95% enriched fuel"

    From this:
    https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/nuclear-power-reactors/small-nuclear-power-reactors.aspx
    and this:
    https://aris.iaea.org/PDF/UK-SMR_2020.pdf

    So if they are correct, then the RR SMR would use low-enriched uranium.
    Show me a Tory MP that wants a RollsRoyce mini-nuke in their constituency.
    You don't need to distribute them widely, the national grid still exists. The point of these is that they are manufactured on a production line (sort of) and then shipped to a location. One imagines you'd put 10-15 of these in a single location, probably those places where nuclear power plants already exist, given the infrastructure also already exists there.
    And if one goes up - they all go up! (Or at the very least, go offline....for a few hundred years.)

    It does nothing on security of supply.
    That's not quite true.

    Let's not forget, the other reactors are Chernobyl kept working for a surprisingly long time after the... accident.
    Well that's reassured me here in the Hinkley Point 30km blast zone.
    Don't be such a wuss.

    You should be proud to live near such a monument to French engineering, Chinese money, and British procurement.
    French you say. So the engineering sophistication and reliability of an early Citroen DS.

    Where's my tin hat?
    IIRC the sketches of the deployment of the mini-nuke reactors showed them a few hundred yards apart, with berms around them.

    The locations were indeed planned for existing nuclear plants.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    A rise in inheritance tax is a red line, the Tory Party has always been the party that has supported inherited wealth no matter what.

    There would be a huge revolt from members and MPs in the home counties and posh parts of London and rightly so, Boris would probably have to sack him. Hence he will not do it
    Can I ask you a hypothetical question.

    If it was proveable that a rise in inheritance tax resulted in better social mobility and economic growth, would you still oppose it?
    Yes because it is not conservative and anti family and anti preservation of wealth within the family.

    Not that it would anyway, you improve social mobility by improving education standards and choice and getting more middle class jobs available not by taking peoples houses. You get economic growth by cutting taxes across the board not raising them
    People relying on inheritance or family handouts does not 'improve social mobility'. It makes it harder for those from poorer backgrounds to get on!

    😠
    No it doesn't, you don't improve social mobility by taking peoples' family homes you just end up with even lower home ownership.

    Thatcher's council house sales was a measure that actually did improve social mobility, as did the expansion of white collar jobs in the 1950s and 1960s and as did many grammar schools
    We are not talking about 'taking people's homes'. Those fortunate enough to have these inheritances which they have got worked for ie unearned wealth need to pay a fair share in tax.

    Also applies to those getting large capital transfers from mummy and daddy eg to buy properties etc.

    We need to sort out the state of the nation's finances and proper tax on unearned wealth needs to be a key part of that.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,018
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    I never said he was near Corbyn or Rayner, but he is left of centre no matter what you may claim
    He isn't. if he was he would be increasing immigration, increasing welfare spending, increasing income tax and IHT and very woke
    Visa quotas increasing immigration, pension and benefits rises in Apri, of approximately 3.4%, NI increases and rumours of inheritance tax changes rather contradicts your view
    A points system to replace EU free movement, triple lock ended and pensions frozen, NI raised to avoid income tax and IHT rises and most nations fund healthcare through insurance anyway
    Pensions are not frozen, they rise by cpi in April if above 2.5% and current forecast is 3.4%

    NI rise is not connected to the rumoured rise in IHT and is nowhere near enough for social care

    And I have no idea what you are talking about most fund health care through insurance, a privileged few maybe

    I cannot believe you write such nonsense
    Most US and continental healthcare is funded via insurance
    Irrelevant as that is not the case in the UK
    The NI rise is mainly to fund health and social care.

    Lloyd George set up NI to fund healthcare, the state pension and unemployment benefits
    Employee NI is not hypothecated though; it's just a tax on (earned) income. If you cannot see that NI is just another income tax you're even denser than I thought.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,368
    edited September 2021
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    A rise in inheritance tax is a red line, the Tory Party has always been the party that has supported inherited wealth no matter what.

    There would be a huge revolt from members and MPs in the home counties and posh parts of London and rightly so, Boris would probably have to sack him. Hence he will not do it
    Can I ask you a hypothetical question.

    If it was proveable that a rise in inheritance tax resulted in better social mobility and economic growth, would you still oppose it?
    Yes because it is not conservative and anti family and anti preservation of wealth within the family.

    Not that it would anyway, you improve social mobility by improving education standards and choice and getting more middle class jobs available not by taking peoples houses. You get economic growth by cutting taxes across the board not raising them
    Then why is your party raising all the taxes mate?
    They aren't, NI is not a tax it is National Insurance, income tax and IHT are not going up
    Income tax thresholds are frozen, inflation is positive (~5%) = Tax rise

    IHT thresholds frozen, = Tax rise

    Cap gains frozen = Tax rise

    Studen loan threshold plummeting = Tax rise

    NI rising = Tax rise^2

    The Tories aren't content with just raising all the taxes, so they're inventing whole new ones!
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,123
    Andy_JS said:

    The AfD seem to be doing surprisingly well in Saxony and Thuringia. They've picked up a number of constituencies in those areas.

    Furchtbar! (=appalling)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    Social issues not even etched on the yardstick. Kate Hoey went hunting, but was rightly in the Labour Party for how she voted on economic questions.
    Social issues are the yardstick which makes you a conservative as well as support for inheritance, being economically Thatcherite could make you a classical liberal as much as a conservative
    I hope the rumours that Rishi is looking at inheritance tax are true
    If they are he can kiss goodbye to any chance of any hope of being Tory leader and PM, there would be a revolution amongst Tory MPs and grassroots and we would lose our poll lead.

    As May discovered in 2017 threatening to take peoples' inheritance is electoral suicide.

    As Osborne discovered in 2007 however IHT cut proposals are extremely popular
    Another nonsense post to be rowed back on when it happens
    And I think what polling on this we have the general population back on on this Big G.

    However, where HY might be right, an important section of Tory support may be in the oppose column?
    As long as it keeps them in their seats they will not complain but what @HYUFD is blinded on, is that the country have moved as a body left wanting more covid regulations and lockdowns if necessary and absolutely spending on the NHS and social care, and listening to him at the UN he is really pushing climate change for all its worth which is very much today's topic

    For all his faults, Boris understands this and is moving onto that agenda and if some of his right wingers complain then he will just carry on anyway
    59% of voters think inheritance tax is unfair, including 67% of Conservative voters, it is the most unpopular tax there is

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/03/19/inheritance-tax-most-unfair
    It is the correct thing to do and you may find Rishi does the right thing
    Boris cares about what will get him re elected even if Rishi doesn't, he will sack Sunak to save his job if he has to
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    I never said he was near Corbyn or Rayner, but he is left of centre no matter what you may claim
    He isn't. if he was he would be increasing immigration, increasing welfare spending, increasing income tax and IHT and very woke
    Visa quotas increasing immigration, pension and benefits rises in Apri, of approximately 3.4%, NI increases and rumours of inheritance tax changes rather contradicts your view
    A points system to replace EU free movement, triple lock ended and pensions frozen, NI raised to avoid income tax and IHT rises and most nations fund healthcare through insurance anyway
    Pensions are not frozen, they rise by cpi in April if above 2.5% and current forecast is 3.4%

    NI rise is not connected to the rumoured rise in IHT and is nowhere near enough for social care

    And I have no idea what you are talking about most fund health care through insurance, a privileged few maybe

    I cannot believe you write such nonsense
    Most US and continental healthcare is funded via insurance
    Irrelevant as that is not the case in the UK
    The NI rise is mainly to fund health and social care.

    Lloyd George set up NI to fund healthcare, the state pension and unemployment benefits
    It does not go anywhere near funding it
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    I never said he was near Corbyn or Rayner, but he is left of centre no matter what you may claim
    He isn't. if he was he would be increasing immigration, increasing welfare spending, increasing income tax and IHT and very woke
    Visa quotas increasing immigration, pension and benefits rises in Apri, of approximately 3.4%, NI increases and rumours of inheritance tax changes rather contradicts your view
    A points system to replace EU free movement, triple lock ended and pensions frozen, NI raised to avoid income tax and IHT rises and most nations fund healthcare through insurance anyway
    Pensions are not frozen, they rise by cpi in April if above 2.5% and current forecast is 3.4%

    NI rise is not connected to the rumoured rise in IHT and is nowhere near enough for social care

    And I have no idea what you are talking about most fund health care through insurance, a privileged few maybe

    I cannot believe you write such nonsense
    Most US and continental healthcare is funded via insurance
    Irrelevant as that is not the case in the UK
    The NI rise is mainly to fund health and social care.

    Lloyd George set up NI to fund healthcare, the state pension and unemployment benefits
    Employee NI is not hypothecated though; it's just a tax on (earned) income. If you cannot see that NI is just another income tax you're even denser than I thought.
    You cannot claim the state pension without NI payments or credits, nor can you claim JSA without sufficient NI contributions
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 21,191
    dixiedean said:

    FPT Re Jimmy Saville.
    He groomed an entire nation's Establishment. Using him to have a pop at just the BBC is a bit reductive.
    Strangely. It was widely rumoured about amongst the younger generation. We knew not to go to his club in Manchester. Don't know anyone my age who thought him other than a total creep.
    But our elders and betters couldn't contain their gushing enthusiasm for the living saint amongst us.
    Any forensic dramatisation might expose the hypocrisy of an entire generation.

    Savile - like all sexual predators - hid in plain sight. He groomed the police, the BBC and senior politicians. He used the law to ensure that people did not speak up. He cloaked himself in virtue. This is what many predators and fraudsters do. I could give you lots of examples. The IICSA reports detail many in a large number of institutions. See here - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/07/29/two-lessons-learnt/

    They still do it. And yet we are either incapable or unwilling to learn the lessons. As to why whistleblowers don't speak up, even though they know ought to know or suspect, well let me ask the men amongst you this. Every woman I know has suffered sexual harassment of some kind, some of it the most serious there is. Statistically, you must know men who have raped or sexually harassed women. How often have you blown the whistle about their conduct? And, if not, why not?

    The fact is that society needs whistleblowers. But it does not love people who do blow the whistle. And the tension between the two is why whistleblowers are much less frequent than they should be and why wrongdoers get away with their crimes and appalling behaviours.

    PS For any who might be wondering, I think for myself. Anyone telling me what to think or thinking that I mouth other people's talking points is a fool. Though I find it amusing to watch. Disagree with me, by all means, but do me the credit of engaging with my arguments
  • Chameleon said:

    FT reporting that the treasury is considering lowering the student loan repayment threshold to below 20k. If that goes through this government will have cut my take home pay as a new grad by ~£150/month between that and the NI tax hike.

    The treasury desperately needs some young people in it, if so they'd cotton on to just how deeply popular, and fiscally beneficial putting pensioners into the thunderdome would be.

    The client vote must be feather bedded at all costs.

    Though it would help the alternative if more young people bothered to get out of bed and vote on GE day.
  • MikeL said:

    After 159/299 seats:

    CDU/CSU 30.0
    SPD 26.4

    Is that right? Seems contrary to narrative?

    https://www.bundeswahlleiter.de/en/bundestagswahlen/2021/ergebnisse/bund-99.html

    The headline figures are done on the list vote. I think the numbers you quote is the constituency vote.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 14,647
    eristdoof said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DW now projecting Die Linke to get 4.9%.

    https://www.dw.com/en/media-center/live-tv/s-100825

    But die Linke wil probably get 3 Direktmandate so be allowed their national %ge of seats.
    Someone earlier was reporting they'd done badly in their "safe seats" in Berlin. Not sure if that's still the case.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 17,550

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Per betfair SPD have won. Thanks to @NickPalmer for the tip when it was 1.3.

    If true then Boris will indeed be the only conservative leader left in the G7 apart from Japan (if you count the LDP as conservative which is debatable given their name).

    The last time there was only 1 conservative in the G7 was Chirac from 1998-2000, again an equally charismatic figure like Boris able to defy the western tide to the centre left
    I am not sure if you have noticed, but Boris has moved noticeably to the left so there is only Japan left then
    He is still the leader of the main Conservative Party in the UK and his cut to UC and ending of free movement from the EU for example are hardly centre left actions.

    Though yes he has positioned himself generally in the relative centre ground
    Time for for Rishi to ameliorate the UC cut but he is left of centre and some distance from the right of the party
    He is not left of centre, he is centrist on economics, populist on culture and social issues, he is miles away from Rayner and Corbyn.

    He is not a pure Thatcherite but then most Tory PMs aren't
    I never said he was near Corbyn or Rayner, but he is left of centre no matter what you may claim
    He isn't. if he was he would be increasing immigration, increasing welfare spending, increasing income tax and IHT and very woke
    Visa quotas increasing immigration, pension and benefits rises in Apri, of approximately 3.4%, NI increases and rumours of inheritance tax changes rather contradicts your view
    A points system to replace EU free movement, triple lock ended and pensions frozen, NI raised to avoid income tax and IHT rises and most nations fund healthcare through insurance anyway
    Pensions are not frozen, they rise by cpi in April if above 2.5% and current forecast is 3.4%

    NI rise is not connected to the rumoured rise in IHT and is nowhere near enough for social care

    And I have no idea what you are talking about most fund health care through insurance, a privileged few maybe

    I cannot believe you write such nonsense
    Most US and continental healthcare is funded via insurance
    Irrelevant as that is not the case in the UK
    The NI rise is mainly to fund health and social care.

    Lloyd George set up NI to fund healthcare, the state pension and unemployment benefits
    Employee NI is not hypothecated though; it's just a tax on (earned) income. If you cannot see that NI is just another income tax you're even denser than I thought.
    He knows it’s a tax it just doesn’t fit the narrative
This discussion has been closed.