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The HGV driver shortage: 2 in 3 blame ministers, Brexit and BoJo – politicalbetting.com

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  • Afternoon all :)

    I note the free speech brigade are trying to shut Rayner down, whilst I think her comments will do absolutely nothing to get people voting Labour, I do want to draw attention to the obvious hypocrisy that is around. If BoJo had said such a thing people would be saying "ah Boris, what a lad he is". Why is Rayner different?

    I was reminded by a Tweet earlier that at every recent Labour conference there's some level of infighting, "Labour is in chaos" etc even with the Deputy Leader doing or saying something similar, even when Labour won elections. Of course the difference was that the leaders's speech at the end changed it all, so this is really "now or never" for Keir Starmer.

    The changes Starmer wishes to make seem to be set to now go through with UNISON's backing, which will prevent morons - including myself - from being able to vote a Corbyn character into the leadership ever again. Which can only be a good thing.

    I am also encouraged that Starmer is now taking a pragmatic view on nationalisation. I think railways should be nationalised no question but energy companies? That just seems ideological to me - and Starmer getting away from that is a good move.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    For @Cyclefree -

    Nobody feels any pain
    Tonight as I stand inside the rain
    Everybody knows that baby's got new clothes
    But lately I see her ribbons and her bows
    Have fallen from her curls

    She takes just like a cis woman
    Yes, she does, she makes love just like a cis woman
    Yes, she does, and she aches just like a cis woman
    But she breaks just like a little cis girl

    :smile:
  • France’s Europe minister on Aukus: “Europeans won’t hold out their cheek to be slapped”

    https://twitter.com/cbeaune/status/1442050030592933893

    Ok yes they will....
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    France’s Europe minister on Aukus: “Europeans won’t hold out their cheek to be slapped”

    https://twitter.com/cbeaune/status/1442050030592933893

    Well they're clearly not going to turn the other one which would make a lot of sense. He ought also to remember that while the French are European, europe is not France.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Andy_JS said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    isam said:

    Goodbye Hoorays! Get out Daddy’s credit card and fly to the west

    ‘Interesting feature 👇

    Forget Oxbridge. For today’s gilded youth, Ivy League is the goal — and parents will spend a fortune to get them there’

    https://twitter.com/matthewsyed/status/1442114498651955200?s=21

    And someone decided to write a newspaper article about this phenomenon? One thing wrong about this country: its cultural cringe towards posh twits in fee-paying schools. Nauseating stuff. I'm with George Bernard Shaw: burn down the lot and sow salt in the ashes.
    Hate to break it to you, but twits no longer get into the fee-paying schools you've heard of, nor into the Ivy League.

    Are you also with Shaw in insisting Hitler and Mussolini should be judged by results, in thinking that freedom was a worthless political value, and in wanting to sterilise or exxterminate the socially unfit?

    Relatedly, I watched American Psycho for the first time last night. Brilliant. How long ago all that seems now, and what an aching irony that when he leaves the restaurant after breaking up with his fiancee there's a gorgeous shot of the twin towers. The film came out in 2000.
    I suppose you think you've made some sort of killer point in all that, but I'm struggling to identify what it could be.
    American psycho is irrelevant. But I'm thinking that someone who wants people killed in the gas chambers for having Down's syndrome would not be my go-to guy on other social issues, either. You must make your own mind up, though. I'm sure there is much to be said on both sides of the argument.
    Christian Bale's performance in the film was remarkable. It was difficult to believe he was British when watching it.
    True. Brilliant film.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited September 2021

    Afternoon all :)

    I note the free speech brigade are trying to shut Rayner down, whilst I think her comments will do absolutely nothing to get people voting Labour, I do want to draw attention to the obvious hypocrisy that is around. If BoJo had said such a thing people would be saying "ah Boris, what a lad he is". Why is Rayner different?

    I was reminded by a Tweet earlier that at every recent Labour conference there's some level of infighting, "Labour is in chaos" etc even with the Deputy Leader doing or saying something similar, even when Labour won elections. Of course the difference was that the leaders's speech at the end changed it all, so this is really "now or never" for Keir Starmer.

    The changes Starmer wishes to make seem to be set to now go through with UNISON's backing, which will prevent morons - including myself - from being able to vote a Corbyn character into the leadership ever again. Which can only be a good thing.

    I am also encouraged that Starmer is now taking a pragmatic view on nationalisation. I think railways should be nationalised no question but energy companies? That just seems ideological to me - and Starmer getting away from that is a good move.

    I don't think anyone has said she shouldn't be allowed to say what she said. Most, like you have just done, were simply pointing out how unhelpful it was.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited September 2021
    An article on some of the tail-chasing self-absorption that is definitely an issue currently on some parts of the Left, and that Leon and some other posters might like - an apparent set-to against white feminists by other feminists.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/26/white-feminists-are-under-attack-from-other-women-here-can-only-be-one-winner--men
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    IanB2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    So. Half an hour to German exit poll. What does everyone think?

    That clip of the CDU guy laughing during his visit to the Rhineland flood-devastated town will put him in second place. What happens thereafter is up to the SPD. They will have to choose between getting the FPD or Linke on board (assuming they already have an offer ready to pitch to the Greens). They’d be best advised to woo the FDP; Linke’s peculiar mix of unreconstructed communists in the east and young radical Corbynites in the west doesn’t suggest a basis for a stable coalition.
    Things will certainly be much simpler if the SPD do come first.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288
    edited September 2021

    Afternoon all :)

    I note the free speech brigade are trying to shut Rayner down, whilst I think her comments will do absolutely nothing to get people voting Labour, I do want to draw attention to the obvious hypocrisy that is around. If BoJo had said such a thing people would be saying "ah Boris, what a lad he is". Why is Rayner different?

    I was reminded by a Tweet earlier that at every recent Labour conference there's some level of infighting, "Labour is in chaos" etc even with the Deputy Leader doing or saying something similar, even when Labour won elections. Of course the difference was that the leaders's speech at the end changed it all, so this is really "now or never" for Keir Starmer.

    The changes Starmer wishes to make seem to be set to now go through with UNISON's backing, which will prevent morons - including myself - from being able to vote a Corbyn character into the leadership ever again. Which can only be a good thing.

    I am also encouraged that Starmer is now taking a pragmatic view on nationalisation. I think railways should be nationalised no question but energy companies? That just seems ideological to me - and Starmer getting away from that is a good move.

    Listen up chum. If Angela Rayner is going to slag of Boris by calling him and his colleagues scum, she is fair game. Enough people slag of Boris on here and have been slagging him off about his private life and I don't seem to recall you reproving them.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,089
    edited September 2021
    For centuries of our country’s history we have been concerned about, and engaged with, what is happening on the other side of the Channel. That the buffoons and morons currently comprising our government think they can chart a different path defies all credible belief.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    theProle said:

    kle4 said:


    kjh said:


    Plenty of blame to go round.

    Except where it belongs, which is selfish twats filling cars to the brim when there was no need at all, given they hardly ever leave the drive.....

    Agree but it seems to be human nature. I'm struggling to understand how 33% manage to blame the last Labour Govt. Much as I can see many might want to, it is an stretch.
    That probably just shows a base level Tory tribal vote, picking the most favourable option whether they believe it or not.
    Here's a stab at how it could be Labour's fault.

    This petrol panic is about the market turmoil from a shortage of HGV drivers.

    Labour let the FOM influx of Eastern European in on their watch, knowing what would happen to pay rates of lower paid workers.
    This meant that in many areas, the normal laws of supply and demand got misaligned from their natural levels, as supply became pretty much infinitely elastic.
    This held down wage levels, resulting in fewer UK nationals training to become HGV drivers.

    There has now been a massive market correction because lots of the cheap labour has vanished over the last year or so - partly Brexit, mainly Covid (it's much less fun being cheap labour in the UK if you can't Easyjet your way home to see family for a weekend at £20 a go every month or two).

    Had Labour not let that influx of cheap labor come in the first place, we wouldn't suddenly be in a roller-coaster of a mega correction now, as the market would have operated normally over the last 15 years or so - so wages would have risen gradually, more drivers would have been trained, lorry operators would have put more effort into maximising productivity etc...

    I don't think it's just Labour's fault, but it's not unreasonable to assign them a share of the blame.
    Wow!

    Well I am tempted to blame Aneurin Bevan for the woes of the NHS for the last decade, oh, and Ted Heath for Brexit.
    A well-argued POV - and you are reduced to taking the piss because you don't like it's underlying assumptions.
    Yes, but you only agree with a rather far fetched thesis because of your partisanship. There again 33% of 2019 Conservative voters (a whopping 15% of the entire voting electorate) concurr, so what do I know?
  • Breaking

    Starmer says Rosie Duffield is wrong saying only women have a cervix

    I am astonished he has not stood above this issue
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704
    edited September 2021
    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I can't be the only one who's thoroughly bored by "Trans".

    Of course you are. But it is not your sex-based rights which are at risk. Nor how you describe yourself and are described.

    You might become slightly less bored by the topic when a teacher turns up at the school your daughter goes to and it turns out that they are a man who has legally become a woman in Scotland (if Sturgeon's GRA changes go through) after three months without any medical diagnosis of dysphoria and without having transitioned in any way and that such a teacher can access the loos and changing rooms your daughter uses.
    This is inferring easier transition will likely lead to deviant men gaming the system, something not supported by evidence from countries that have such a system. The other problem is it erroneously links 'trans' with 'perverts', which leads to prejudice and bigotry.

    I actually find your philosophical ‘TERF’ arguments stronger. That self-ID represents a trivializing of womanhood. The obvious retort is what about female to male trans, but I guess you’d say, well, yes, but men are secure in their status/power in our (still) patriarchal society, so feel no need to kick up a fuss, which is a good point. My other retort would be that women are more supportive of transpeople than men are, most see no conflict with their own rights, and this is particularly true of younger women, where it’s overwhelming, but to this I guess you’d say, well, yes, because it’s older generation women who remember the fierce fights for equality, hence are more sensitive to encroachments, also a good point.

    And is this men telling women what to think? I see why you say this but, no, I don’t think that’s fair. There are loads of men on the anti side of the debate and loads of women on the pro. I don’t see it as a male v female issue at all, to me it’s about allowing this small group of people to be themselves. Changing gender seems odd but I can imagine that one day it’ll be as “shrug” as homosexuality (almost) is today, in which case these battles will be looked back upon in a similar light to those around that. But who knows. The antis are strong at the moment, their arguments resonate, and I haven’t a clue where it’s going longer term.
    Please do not call me a TERF.

    I have to go now. But I did respond to your questions to me on the thread header I wrote the other day. Right at the end. Not going to repeat here. Just wanted to let you know that I did not ignore your questions.

    Your first paragraph is very naive, btw. If anything the evidence - such as it is (too early to say) goes the other way.

    Nor do I think this a generational issue. Daughter does not care if people want to transition but very firmly against transwomen competing in women's sports.

    Anyway, have a nice day all.
    A wonderful debate of men telling women what to think.
    kinabalu said:

    For @Cyclefree -

    Nobody feels any pain
    Tonight as I stand inside the rain
    Everybody knows that baby's got new clothes
    But lately I see her ribbons and her bows
    Have fallen from her curls

    She takes just like a cis woman
    Yes, she does, she makes love just like a cis woman
    Yes, she does, and she aches just like a cis woman
    But she breaks just like a little cis girl

    :smile:

    Www.terfisaslur.com
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    edited September 2021
    Re Germany. Well, more musing really. And haven't googled.
    Off the top of my head, which was the last election of a major country won by the candidate of the right?
    It can't be Boris, can it?
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704

    Afternoon all :)

    I note the free speech brigade are trying to shut Rayner down, whilst I think her comments will do absolutely nothing to get people voting Labour, I do want to draw attention to the obvious hypocrisy that is around. If BoJo had said such a thing people would be saying "ah Boris, what a lad he is". Why is Rayner different?

    I was reminded by a Tweet earlier that at every recent Labour conference there's some level of infighting, "Labour is in chaos" etc even with the Deputy Leader doing or saying something similar, even when Labour won elections. Of course the difference was that the leaders's speech at the end changed it all, so this is really "now or never" for Keir Starmer.

    The changes Starmer wishes to make seem to be set to now go through with UNISON's backing, which will prevent morons - including myself - from being able to vote a Corbyn character into the leadership ever again. Which can only be a good thing.

    I am also encouraged that Starmer is now taking a pragmatic view on nationalisation. I think railways should be nationalised no question but energy companies? That just seems ideological to me - and Starmer getting away from that is a good move.

    You tempted by the labour lead bet a second time, CHB ?
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,919
    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I can't be the only one who's thoroughly bored by "Trans".

    Of course you are. But it is not your sex-based rights which are at risk. Nor how you describe yourself and are described.

    You might become slightly less bored by the topic when a teacher turns up at the school your daughter goes to and it turns out that they are a man who has legally become a woman in Scotland (if Sturgeon's GRA changes go through) after three months without any medical diagnosis of dysphoria and without having transitioned in any way and that such a teacher can access the loos and changing rooms your daughter uses.
    This is inferring easier transition will likely lead to deviant men gaming the system, something not supported by evidence from countries that have such a system. The other problem is it erroneously links 'trans' with 'perverts', which leads to prejudice and bigotry.

    I actually find your philosophical ‘TERF’ arguments stronger. That self-ID represents a trivializing of womanhood. The obvious retort is what about female to male trans, but I guess you’d say, well, yes, but men are secure in their status/power in our (still) patriarchal society, so feel no need to kick up a fuss, which is a good point. My other retort would be that women are more supportive of transpeople than men are, most see no conflict with their own rights, and this is particularly true of younger women, where it’s overwhelming, but to this I guess you’d say, well, yes, because it’s older generation women who remember the fierce fights for equality, hence are more sensitive to encroachments, also a good point.

    And is this men telling women what to think? I see why you say this but, no, I don’t think that’s fair. There are loads of men on the anti side of the debate and loads of women on the pro. I don’t see it as a male v female issue at all, to me it’s about allowing this small group of people to be themselves. Changing gender seems odd but I can imagine that one day it’ll be as “shrug” as homosexuality (almost) is today, in which case these battles will be looked back upon in a similar light to those around that. But who knows. The antis are strong at the moment, their arguments resonate, and I haven’t a clue where it’s going longer term.
    Please do not call me a TERF.

    I have to go now. But I did respond to your questions to me on the thread header I wrote the other day. Right at the end. Not going to repeat here. Just wanted to let you know that I did not ignore your questions.

    Your first paragraph is very naive, btw. If anything the evidence - such as it is (too early to say) goes the other way.

    Nor do I think this a generational issue. Daughter does not care if people want to transition but very firmly against transwomen competing in women's sports.

    Anyway, have a nice day all.
    For someone who denies TERFism, you do seem to repeat an awful lot of TERF talking points Cyclefree.

    Perhaps if you don’t like the moniker, you could think about why it might be being applied?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited September 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Re Germany. Well, more musing really. And haven't googled.
    Off the top of my head, which was the last election of a major country won by the candidate of the right?
    It can't be Boris, can it?

    It was. If the SPD win tonight then Boris will be the only centre right leader of a G7 nation left apart from the PM of Japan.

    Would show how well Boris has done and is doing to still have a poll lead given a post Covid social democratic tide in the western world rather like the tide to the centre left in the late 1990s
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,089
    edited September 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Re Germany. Well, more musing really. And haven't googled.
    Off the top of my head, which was the last election of a major country won by the candidate of the right?
    It can't be Boris, can it?

    After Biden the runes do suggest that the centre-left might be best positioned to capitalise on the mood of the post-pandemic world. Our weakness is that neither Labour nor the LibDems appear match fit enough to catch the ball. Our clown’s survival depends upon how well he is able to govern from the centre-left while duping his party, through the empty posturing and symbolism that they love, that he remains on the right.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Phil said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I can't be the only one who's thoroughly bored by "Trans".

    Of course you are. But it is not your sex-based rights which are at risk. Nor how you describe yourself and are described.

    You might become slightly less bored by the topic when a teacher turns up at the school your daughter goes to and it turns out that they are a man who has legally become a woman in Scotland (if Sturgeon's GRA changes go through) after three months without any medical diagnosis of dysphoria and without having transitioned in any way and that such a teacher can access the loos and changing rooms your daughter uses.
    This is inferring easier transition will likely lead to deviant men gaming the system, something not supported by evidence from countries that have such a system. The other problem is it erroneously links 'trans' with 'perverts', which leads to prejudice and bigotry.

    I actually find your philosophical ‘TERF’ arguments stronger. That self-ID represents a trivializing of womanhood. The obvious retort is what about female to male trans, but I guess you’d say, well, yes, but men are secure in their status/power in our (still) patriarchal society, so feel no need to kick up a fuss, which is a good point. My other retort would be that women are more supportive of transpeople than men are, most see no conflict with their own rights, and this is particularly true of younger women, where it’s overwhelming, but to this I guess you’d say, well, yes, because it’s older generation women who remember the fierce fights for equality, hence are more sensitive to encroachments, also a good point.

    And is this men telling women what to think? I see why you say this but, no, I don’t think that’s fair. There are loads of men on the anti side of the debate and loads of women on the pro. I don’t see it as a male v female issue at all, to me it’s about allowing this small group of people to be themselves. Changing gender seems odd but I can imagine that one day it’ll be as “shrug” as homosexuality (almost) is today, in which case these battles will be looked back upon in a similar light to those around that. But who knows. The antis are strong at the moment, their arguments resonate, and I haven’t a clue where it’s going longer term.
    Please do not call me a TERF.

    I have to go now. But I did respond to your questions to me on the thread header I wrote the other day. Right at the end. Not going to repeat here. Just wanted to let you know that I did not ignore your questions.

    Your first paragraph is very naive, btw. If anything the evidence - such as it is (too early to say) goes the other way.

    Nor do I think this a generational issue. Daughter does not care if people want to transition but very firmly against transwomen competing in women's sports.

    Anyway, have a nice day all.
    For someone who denies TERFism, you do seem to repeat an awful lot of TERF talking points Cyclefree.

    Perhaps if you don’t like the moniker, you could think about why it might be being applied?
    To predispose people toward the arguer rather than than the argument? The same reason people slap labels on most people as broadly as possible.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re Germany. Well, more musing really. And haven't googled.
    Off the top of my head, which was the last election of a major country won by the candidate of the right?
    It can't be Boris, can it?

    It was. If the SPD win tonight then Boris will be the only centre right leader of a G7 nation left apart from the PM of Japan.

    Would show how well Boris has done given a post Covid social democratic tide rather like the tide to the centre left in the late 1990s
    Somewhat difficult to categorise Japan. It's always the same Party.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Phil said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I can't be the only one who's thoroughly bored by "Trans".

    Of course you are. But it is not your sex-based rights which are at risk. Nor how you describe yourself and are described.

    You might become slightly less bored by the topic when a teacher turns up at the school your daughter goes to and it turns out that they are a man who has legally become a woman in Scotland (if Sturgeon's GRA changes go through) after three months without any medical diagnosis of dysphoria and without having transitioned in any way and that such a teacher can access the loos and changing rooms your daughter uses.
    This is inferring easier transition will likely lead to deviant men gaming the system, something not supported by evidence from countries that have such a system. The other problem is it erroneously links 'trans' with 'perverts', which leads to prejudice and bigotry.

    I actually find your philosophical ‘TERF’ arguments stronger. That self-ID represents a trivializing of womanhood. The obvious retort is what about female to male trans, but I guess you’d say, well, yes, but men are secure in their status/power in our (still) patriarchal society, so feel no need to kick up a fuss, which is a good point. My other retort would be that women are more supportive of transpeople than men are, most see no conflict with their own rights, and this is particularly true of younger women, where it’s overwhelming, but to this I guess you’d say, well, yes, because it’s older generation women who remember the fierce fights for equality, hence are more sensitive to encroachments, also a good point.

    And is this men telling women what to think? I see why you say this but, no, I don’t think that’s fair. There are loads of men on the anti side of the debate and loads of women on the pro. I don’t see it as a male v female issue at all, to me it’s about allowing this small group of people to be themselves. Changing gender seems odd but I can imagine that one day it’ll be as “shrug” as homosexuality (almost) is today, in which case these battles will be looked back upon in a similar light to those around that. But who knows. The antis are strong at the moment, their arguments resonate, and I haven’t a clue where it’s going longer term.
    Please do not call me a TERF.

    I have to go now. But I did respond to your questions to me on the thread header I wrote the other day. Right at the end. Not going to repeat here. Just wanted to let you know that I did not ignore your questions.

    Your first paragraph is very naive, btw. If anything the evidence - such as it is (too early to say) goes the other way.

    Nor do I think this a generational issue. Daughter does not care if people want to transition but very firmly against transwomen competing in women's sports.

    Anyway, have a nice day all.
    For someone who denies TERFism, you do seem to repeat an awful lot of TERF talking points Cyclefree.

    Perhaps if you don’t like the moniker, you could think about why it might be being applied?
    Mansplain to her a bit more, you can join Kinabalu in the club of white men telling women to know their role.
  • MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I can't be the only one who's thoroughly bored by "Trans".

    Of course you are. But it is not your sex-based rights which are at risk. Nor how you describe yourself and are described.

    You might become slightly less bored by the topic when a teacher turns up at the school your daughter goes to and it turns out that they are a man who has legally become a woman in Scotland (if Sturgeon's GRA changes go through) after three months without any medical diagnosis of dysphoria and without having transitioned in any way and that such a teacher can access the loos and changing rooms your daughter uses.
    That’s a good point. The trans issue does not especially interest me now (except as a satisfied spectator of lefty civil wars) - but I have two daughters. Hmm

    One thing that does bug me is Starmer’s insistence (restated again today) that trans people are ‘the most marginalized of communities’ Is there anything to back this up? If there is, does it explain the modern Left’s obsession with trans rights - ie in their pursuit of intersectional privilege, or lack of, are trans people the intersect which meets maximum bigotry and hatred?

    I have my doubts there are enough trans people to make the data reliable, but who knows
    Trans people are protected under the Equality Act.

    Cyclefree said:

    I can't be the only one who's thoroughly bored by "Trans".

    Of course you are. But it is not your sex-based rights which are at risk. Nor how you describe yourself and are described.
    and changing rooms your daughter uses.
    I respect your position @Cyclefree but you have to also recognise that plenty of women do not feel their sex-based rights are under threat in the same way you do.
    Refusing to collect data about it is both daft and potentially dangerous.
    I refused to answer questions about my gender identity and sexuality on the diversity form to join my new employer.

    They've still confirmed my appointment. So good so far, but I suspect I'll find a dissenting line hard to navigate at director level.
    I wouldn't worry about it. The best thing to do is simply ignore the bullshit. That's what I do. I've also actively pushed back on something called "alignment groups" without any repercussions. The idea was that all the Asians or Jews or women could align themselves and ask for special treatment. It's something that's come over from our US office and I refused to implement them for my team by saying they'd be divisive. I argued my case to the directors and they agreed so junked them for London.
    Thanks Max. I also heard on Friday from a colleague of mine that my old (well, current for the next 3 weeks) firm has just hired an EDI advisor, and we all know what that means.

    Looks like I got out just in time. I hope in my new firm, in my new position, I can find the courage to do what you did and push back against the more divisive lunacies of this.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    So we are not allowed to.talk about Rayner and her appalling comment. .. but its all right though for Boris to.be slagged off then.. strikes me as odd...

    Who has stopped you talking about Rayner's indiscretion? I have only been on occasionally so I have missed it.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited September 2021
    IanB2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re Germany. Well, more musing really. And haven't googled.
    Off the top of my head, which was the last election of a major country won by the candidate of the right?
    It can't be Boris, can it?

    After Biden the runes do suggest that the centre-left might be best positioned to capitalise on the mood of the post-pandemic world. Our weakness is that neither Labour nor the LibDems appear match fit enough to catch the ball.
    To be honest I think a huge opportunity has opened for the lib dems in remain areas

    They should commit to joining the single market and freedom of movement at GE24 without rejoining the EU

    They are not going to win red wall seats but labour have the real problem that it would be a very negative issue in the red wall if they did the same

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re Germany. Well, more musing really. And haven't googled.
    Off the top of my head, which was the last election of a major country won by the candidate of the right?
    It can't be Boris, can it?

    It was. If the SPD win tonight then Boris will be the only centre right leader of a G7 nation left apart from the PM of Japan.

    Would show how well Boris has done given a post Covid social democratic tide rather like the tide to the centre left in the late 1990s
    Somewhat difficult to categorise Japan. It's always the same Party.
    Largely, though it did have PMs from the centre left Democratic Party from 2009 to 2012 (and a Socialist PM briefly from 1994 to 1996) even if the centre right LDP are back in power now
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited September 2021
    Another way of looking at it might be that she's building a brand - "authentic gobby Angela" , but with somewhat moderated actual policy, and without some of Corbyn's toxic historical baggage on areas like the IRA and Iran.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704
    Phil said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I can't be the only one who's thoroughly bored by "Trans".

    Of course you are. But it is not your sex-based rights which are at risk. Nor how you describe yourself and are described.

    You might become slightly less bored by the topic when a teacher turns up at the school your daughter goes to and it turns out that they are a man who has legally become a woman in Scotland (if Sturgeon's GRA changes go through) after three months without any medical diagnosis of dysphoria and without having transitioned in any way and that such a teacher can access the loos and changing rooms your daughter uses.
    This is inferring easier transition will likely lead to deviant men gaming the system, something not supported by evidence from countries that have such a system. The other problem is it erroneously links 'trans' with 'perverts', which leads to prejudice and bigotry.

    I actually find your philosophical ‘TERF’ arguments stronger. That self-ID represents a trivializing of womanhood. The obvious retort is what about female to male trans, but I guess you’d say, well, yes, but men are secure in their status/power in our (still) patriarchal society, so feel no need to kick up a fuss, which is a good point. My other retort would be that women are more supportive of transpeople than men are, most see no conflict with their own rights, and this is particularly true of younger women, where it’s overwhelming, but to this I guess you’d say, well, yes, because it’s older generation women who remember the fierce fights for equality, hence are more sensitive to encroachments, also a good point.

    And is this men telling women what to think? I see why you say this but, no, I don’t think that’s fair. There are loads of men on the anti side of the debate and loads of women on the pro. I don’t see it as a male v female issue at all, to me it’s about allowing this small group of people to be themselves. Changing gender seems odd but I can imagine that one day it’ll be as “shrug” as homosexuality (almost) is today, in which case these battles will be looked back upon in a similar light to those around that. But who knows. The antis are strong at the moment, their arguments resonate, and I haven’t a clue where it’s going longer term.
    Please do not call me a TERF.

    I have to go now. But I did respond to your questions to me on the thread header I wrote the other day. Right at the end. Not going to repeat here. Just wanted to let you know that I did not ignore your questions.

    Your first paragraph is very naive, btw. If anything the evidence - such as it is (too early to say) goes the other way.

    Nor do I think this a generational issue. Daughter does not care if people want to transition but very firmly against transwomen competing in women's sports.

    Anyway, have a nice day all.
    For someone who denies TERFism, you do seem to repeat an awful lot of TERF talking points Cyclefree.

    Perhaps if you don’t like the moniker, you could think about why it might be being applied?
    Wow, another man telling a woman what to think. It’s a great look. Cyclefree, know your place, Phil is speaking Mansplain a little more to her.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re Germany. Well, more musing really. And haven't googled.
    Off the top of my head, which was the last election of a major country won by the candidate of the right?
    It can't be Boris, can it?

    It was. If the SPD win tonight then Boris will be the only centre right leader of a G7 nation left apart from the PM of Japan.

    Would show how well Boris has done given a post Covid social democratic tide in the western world rather like the tide to the centre left in the late 1990s
    Anyone care to speculate why that might be?
    Thinking of the trend, rather than Johnson. We discussed him plenty.
    A recognition that society is actually more fragile than it normally appears? And that we depend quite heavily on public services, even if we don’t like paying for them?
    Or. Like 1945, no great yearning to return to the status quo ante? Or has Trump, and anti-vax, anti-lockdown conspiracies queered the pitch for the right? Or has a decade of generally right wing government since GFC let folk down?
    Or a bit of all of this?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I can't be the only one who's thoroughly bored by "Trans".

    Of course you are. But it is not your sex-based rights which are at risk. Nor how you describe yourself and are described.

    You might become slightly less bored by the topic when a teacher turns up at the school your daughter goes to and it turns out that they are a man who has legally become a woman in Scotland (if Sturgeon's GRA changes go through) after three months without any medical diagnosis of dysphoria and without having transitioned in any way and that such a teacher can access the loos and changing rooms your daughter uses.
    That’s a good point. The trans issue does not especially interest me now (except as a satisfied spectator of lefty civil wars) - but I have two daughters. Hmm

    One thing that does bug me is Starmer’s insistence (restated again today) that trans people are ‘the most marginalized of communities’ Is there anything to back this up? If there is, does it explain the modern Left’s obsession with trans rights - ie in their pursuit of intersectional privilege, or lack of, are trans people the intersect which meets maximum bigotry and hatred?

    I have my doubts there are enough trans people to make the data reliable, but who knows
    Trans people are protected under the Equality Act.

    Cyclefree said:

    I can't be the only one who's thoroughly bored by "Trans".

    Of course you are. But it is not your sex-based rights which are at risk. Nor how you describe yourself and are described.
    and changing rooms your daughter uses.
    I respect your position @Cyclefree but you have to also recognise that plenty of women do not feel their sex-based rights are under threat in the same way you do.
    Refusing to collect data about it is both daft and potentially dangerous.
    I refused to answer questions about my gender identity and sexuality on the diversity form to join my new employer.

    They've still confirmed my appointment. So good so far, but I suspect I'll find a dissenting line hard to navigate at director level.
    I wouldn't worry about it. The best thing to do is simply ignore the bullshit. That's what I do. I've also actively pushed back on something called "alignment groups" without any repercussions. The idea was that all the Asians or Jews or women could align themselves and ask for special treatment. It's something that's come over from our US office and I refused to implement them for my team by saying they'd be divisive. I argued my case to the directors and they agreed so junked them for London.
    Thanks Max. I also heard on Friday from a colleague of mine that my old (well, current for the next 3 weeks) firm has just hired an EDI advisor, and we all know what that means.

    Looks like I got out just in time. I hope in my new firm, in my new position, I can find the courage to do what you did and push back against the more divisive lunacies of this.
    The worst part about this stuff is that no one specific is asking for it. I consulted with my team first before making my opposition known to the HR director and in the discussion not a single person who would be in favour of them based on their racial background was. In the end the discussion with the HR director was pretty good, though being Asian probably helped me while you won't have that in your back pocket.

    British thinking is completely different to the US where everyone seems to think like a victim of something or other. Maybe it's because we've got pretty tough culture fit standards and people who think in that manner don't make it through the door.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,415
    edited September 2021

    Another way of looking at it might be that she's building a brand - "authentic gobby Angela" , but with somewhat moderated actual policy, and without some of Corbyn's toxic historical baggage on areas like the IRA ans Iran.

    ie if that is the case she is not that authentic. As always language like she used reflects on the user of it not the recipient of it . Most voters I doubt appreciate it either so more damage to her and labour I suspect for its use.

    If she thinks she can "build a brand" on a northern accent and course words then its a bit juvenile really and shallow
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Afternoon all :)

    I note the free speech brigade are trying to shut Rayner down, whilst I think her comments will do absolutely nothing to get people voting Labour, I do want to draw attention to the obvious hypocrisy that is around. If BoJo had said such a thing people would be saying "ah Boris, what a lad he is". Why is Rayner different?

    I was reminded by a Tweet earlier that at every recent Labour conference there's some level of infighting, "Labour is in chaos" etc even with the Deputy Leader doing or saying something similar, even when Labour won elections. Of course the difference was that the leaders's speech at the end changed it all, so this is really "now or never" for Keir Starmer.

    The changes Starmer wishes to make seem to be set to now go through with UNISON's backing, which will prevent morons - including myself - from being able to vote a Corbyn character into the leadership ever again. Which can only be a good thing.

    I am also encouraged that Starmer is now taking a pragmatic view on nationalisation. I think railways should be nationalised no question but energy companies? That just seems ideological to me - and Starmer getting away from that is a good move.

    I think you've fallen on the opposite side of the 'what if opponents did this?' test. We don't have to think what people on here would do, we only need to know, with certainty, what the person in question would have said if their target had said the same about them.

    I think we can all be confident we know what they'd have said.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343

    Afternoon all :)

    I note the free speech brigade are trying to shut Rayner down, whilst I think her comments will do absolutely nothing to get people voting Labour, I do want to draw attention to the obvious hypocrisy that is around. If BoJo had said such a thing people would be saying "ah Boris, what a lad he is". Why is Rayner different?

    I was reminded by a Tweet earlier that at every recent Labour conference there's some level of infighting, "Labour is in chaos" etc even with the Deputy Leader doing or saying something similar, even when Labour won elections. Of course the difference was that the leaders's speech at the end changed it all, so this is really "now or never" for Keir Starmer.

    The changes Starmer wishes to make seem to be set to now go through with UNISON's backing, which will prevent morons - including myself - from being able to vote a Corbyn character into the leadership ever again. Which can only be a good thing.

    I am also encouraged that Starmer is now taking a pragmatic view on nationalisation. I think railways should be nationalised no question but energy companies? That just seems ideological to me - and Starmer getting away from that is a good move.

    I very much doubt if many free speech minded old fashioned liberals are trying to prevent Angela Rayner's freedom to speak. Some are drawing attention to the possible political fallout from what she has said. I think they are both correct and, if you are of the centre right, politically astute, to do so. John Stuart Mill doesn't come into it.

    One of the merits of free speech is that it allows people to make and form judgements better.

  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704
    Definitely,not Phil or Kinabalu talking to cyclefree https://youtu.be/LS37SNYjg8w
  • Hey again all,

    https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1442111297395515394

    I found the Tweet I was referring to before.

    Now, must be off.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re Germany. Well, more musing really. And haven't googled.
    Off the top of my head, which was the last election of a major country won by the candidate of the right?
    It can't be Boris, can it?

    It was. If the SPD win tonight then Boris will be the only centre right leader of a G7 nation left apart from the PM of Japan.

    Would show how well Boris has done given a post Covid social democratic tide in the western world rather like the tide to the centre left in the late 1990s
    Anyone care to speculate why that might be?
    Thinking of the trend, rather than Johnson. We discussed him plenty.
    A recognition that society is actually more fragile than it normally appears? And that we depend quite heavily on public services, even if we don’t like paying for them?
    Or. Like 1945, no great yearning to return to the status quo ante? Or has Trump, and anti-vax, anti-lockdown conspiracies queered the pitch for the right? Or has a decade of generally right wing government since GFC let folk down?
    Or a bit of all of this?
    A bit of all plus these things go in cycles
  • MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I can't be the only one who's thoroughly bored by "Trans".

    Of course you are. But it is not your sex-based rights which are at risk. Nor how you describe yourself and are described.

    You might become slightly less bored by the topic when a teacher turns up at the school your daughter goes to and it turns out that they are a man who has legally become a woman in Scotland (if Sturgeon's GRA changes go through) after three months without any medical diagnosis of dysphoria and without having transitioned in any way and that such a teacher can access the loos and changing rooms your daughter uses.
    Eh? I actually agree with you on all of that. It's the relentless way the issue keeps being prosecuted by the identity obsessed Left that bores me.

    I don't know why you keep trying to introduce a battle of the sexes dimension into this where it doesn't exist; we've got enough group polarisation as it is.
    I agree with you. Sorry if I did not make myself clear. It should not be a battle of the sexes issue but it does appear to me that a lot of the trans activists attacks on women are coming from men, though not exclusively so. It is curious that the women-transitioning-to-men side is nowhere near as toxic. The Keira Bell case was more about what was being done to her and there was very little of the same women telling men what a man is or seeking to redefine manhood that goes on in relation to transwomen.
    I think the best way to look at this is another expression of white male privilege over women. The main purveyors of self-ID transgenderism are white men. For their whole lives they've got their way and now they've suddenly found that everyone's fighting back against them having free access to women only spaces. That's why this is still getting any airtime. The idea saying women have cocks is ridiculous and yet here we are. The white men will always get their way, Cyclefree.
    My appeal would be: can we please not fall into the trap of fighting Woke with more Woke?

    If we want to get past this and into an enlightened world where we are treated fairly as individuals we need to stop playing this game by their rules.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,257
    edited September 2021

    Breaking

    Starmer says Rosie Duffield is wrong saying only women have a cervix

    I am astonished he has not stood above this issue

    I assume he was directly asked? Foolish to get involved, if not.

    I would however agree that Duffield is wrong and very clearly so. Even leaving trans-women out of the picture, doesn't a hysterectomy sometimes (often?) involve removal of the cervix?

    Edit: No, I've misread what she's reported to have said - not that all women have a cervix, but that only women have a cervix. That's more open to interpretations of what is a man and what is a woman. So, scrub out my comment on Duffield, without me knowing more of the facts.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited September 2021

    Another way of looking at it might be that she's building a brand - "authentic gobby Angela" , but with somewhat moderated actual policy, and without some of Corbyn's toxic historical baggage on areas like the IRA ans Iran.

    ie if that is the case she is not that authentic. As always language like she used reflects on the user of it not the recipient of it . Most voters I doubt appreciate it either so more damage to her and labour I suspect for its use.

    If she thinks she can "build a brand" on a northern accent and course words then its a bit juvenile really and shallow
    I'm not really sure, to be honest. It might be that she was just feeling drunk or indiscreet with a late-night Labour audience, rather than being calculating. It won't help her in the short-term, but particularly if she employs her more charming aspect later on to apologise for it, or put in some ironic distance from it with some sort of quip, as I suspect she might and is her style, she probably won't be too badly affected by it in the long-term.
  • German exit polls:

    CDU/CSU: 25%
    SPD: 25%
    Greens: 15%
    AfD: 11%
    FDP: 11%
    Linke: 5%
  • Selebian said:

    Breaking

    Starmer says Rosie Duffield is wrong saying only women have a cervix

    I am astonished he has not stood above this issue

    I assume he was directly asked? Foolish to get involved, if not.

    I would however agree that Duffield is wrong and very clearly so. Even leaving trans-women out of the picture, doesn't a hysterectomy sometimes (often?) involve removal of the cervix?
    My wife had a hysterectomy but I doubt she would agree with Starmer
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    German exit polls:

    CDU/CSU: 25%
    SPD: 25%
    Greens: 15%
    AfD: 11%
    FDP: 11%
    Linke: 5%

    Better for Union than expected, looks like yet another Grand coalition if correct
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,257
    edited September 2021

    German exit polls:

    CDU/CSU: 25%
    SPD: 25%
    Greens: 15%
    AfD: 11%
    FDP: 11%
    Linke: 5%

    Oh! Are their exit polls like ours - basically the result? Or is there more margin of error?

    Maybe should have hung on to my (full) union position afterall...
  • HYUFD said:

    German exit polls:

    CDU/CSU: 25%
    SPD: 25%
    Greens: 15%
    AfD: 11%
    FDP: 11%
    Linke: 5%

    Better for Union than expected, looks like yet another Grand coalition if correct
    The other exit poll is SPD +2
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I can't be the only one who's thoroughly bored by "Trans".

    Of course you are. But it is not your sex-based rights which are at risk. Nor how you describe yourself and are described.

    You might become slightly less bored by the topic when a teacher turns up at the school your daughter goes to and it turns out that they are a man who has legally become a woman in Scotland (if Sturgeon's GRA changes go through) after three months without any medical diagnosis of dysphoria and without having transitioned in any way and that such a teacher can access the loos and changing rooms your daughter uses.
    Eh? I actually agree with you on all of that. It's the relentless way the issue keeps being prosecuted by the identity obsessed Left that bores me.

    I don't know why you keep trying to introduce a battle of the sexes dimension into this where it doesn't exist; we've got enough group polarisation as it is.
    I agree with you. Sorry if I did not make myself clear. It should not be a battle of the sexes issue but it does appear to me that a lot of the trans activists attacks on women are coming from men, though not exclusively so. It is curious that the women-transitioning-to-men side is nowhere near as toxic. The Keira Bell case was more about what was being done to her and there was very little of the same women telling men what a man is or seeking to redefine manhood that goes on in relation to transwomen.
    I think the best way to look at this is another expression of white male privilege over women. The main purveyors of self-ID transgenderism are white men. For their whole lives they've got their way and now they've suddenly found that everyone's fighting back against them having free access to women only spaces. That's why this is still getting any airtime. The idea saying women have cocks is ridiculous and yet here we are. The white men will always get their way, Cyclefree.
    My appeal would be: can we please not fall into the trap of fighting Woke with more Woke?

    If we want to get past this and into an enlightened world where we are treated fairly as individuals we need to stop playing this game by their rules.
    For sure, however, sometimes it's good to put it in terms they understand.

    My, half serious, point was that this is men telling women to know their role and shut up about their hard won rights.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    moonshine said:

    dixiedean said:

    Absolutely no queues at my petrol station. All fuel available and only 2 of 6 pumps being used.

    Don’t tell people that! The selfish twunks will set off from around the nation and converge...
    Yes there really is no more selfish behaviour than wanting to make sure you have enough fuel to get your kids to school and yourself to work.
    Fine if you need fuel. How many yesterday didn’t actually need to fill up?
    While that's true, can you blame people for having more range anxiety than normal in the current circumstances? It's all very well being the "sensible one" until everyone else has fuel and you don't.
    No I don’t blame them. I was even tempted myself, but I’ve got 3/4 tank and so about 270 miles in my car. Wife’s diesel is only half full and might be a bigger issue as she does a longer commute. I just despair at our collective stupidity.
  • Betting opportunity

    How long will Spurs manager last

    3 - 0 down to Arsenal in 34 minutes
  • Selebian said:

    German exit polls:

    CDU/CSU: 25%
    SPD: 25%
    Greens: 15%
    AfD: 11%
    FDP: 11%
    Linke: 5%

    Oh! Are their exit polls like ours - basically the result? Or is there more margin of error?
    It should be basically the result, although there's another one that has the SPD slightly ahead: 26 to 24.
  • German exit polls:

    CDU/CSU: 25%
    SPD: 25%
    Greens: 15%
    AfD: 11%
    FDP: 11%
    Linke: 5%

    I do like an exit poll. Bit hard to draw any clear conclusions from that result, though.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,257

    Selebian said:

    Breaking

    Starmer says Rosie Duffield is wrong saying only women have a cervix

    I am astonished he has not stood above this issue

    I assume he was directly asked? Foolish to get involved, if not.

    I would however agree that Duffield is wrong and very clearly so. Even leaving trans-women out of the picture, doesn't a hysterectomy sometimes (often?) involve removal of the cervix?
    My wife had a hysterectomy but I doubt she would agree with Starmer
    See my edit to my post - comprehension fail on my part when first replying.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Selebian said:

    Breaking

    Starmer says Rosie Duffield is wrong saying only women have a cervix

    I am astonished he has not stood above this issue

    I assume he was directly asked? Foolish to get involved, if not.

    I would however agree that Duffield is wrong and very clearly so. Even leaving trans-women out of the picture, doesn't a hysterectomy sometimes (often?) involve removal of the cervix?

    Edit: No, I've misread what she's reported to have said - not that all women have a cervix, but that only women have a cervix. That's more open to interpretations of what is a man and what is a woman. So, scrub out my comment on Duffield, without me knowing more of the facts.
    I'm actually surprised that Starmer fell into the trap. He's now on the side of denying basic fucking biology.
  • Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Breaking

    Starmer says Rosie Duffield is wrong saying only women have a cervix

    I am astonished he has not stood above this issue

    I assume he was directly asked? Foolish to get involved, if not.

    I would however agree that Duffield is wrong and very clearly so. Even leaving trans-women out of the picture, doesn't a hysterectomy sometimes (often?) involve removal of the cervix?
    My wife had a hysterectomy but I doubt she would agree with Starmer
    See my edit to my post - comprehension fail on my part when first replying.
    Fair play
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    edited September 2021
    Tie in Germany. But who will be Chancellor. I did say last night there was a tradition of late swingback. I was shown to be wrong at the last election, but it seems to have re-emerged.
    Will Linke get 5%? That could make all the difference.
  • Selebian said:

    German exit polls:

    CDU/CSU: 25%
    SPD: 25%
    Greens: 15%
    AfD: 11%
    FDP: 11%
    Linke: 5%

    Oh! Are their exit polls like ours - basically the result? Or is there more margin of error?

    Maybe should have hung on to my (full) union position afterall...
    And in seats, the first projection is Union 200/SPD 197.

    https://twitter.com/BR24/status/1442158029265321986?s=19
  • The CDU/CSU are saying they want a CDU/CSU + Greens + FDP coalition
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    German exit polls:

    CDU/CSU: 25%
    SPD: 25%
    Greens: 15%
    AfD: 11%
    FDP: 11%
    Linke: 5%

    Better for Union than expected, looks like yet another Grand coalition if correct
    The other exit poll is SPD +2
    Neither poll suggests RGL is possible though, both give the Union and AfD and FDP combined more.

    So another grand coalition between the Union and SPD looks likely, zero change despite all the hype. Only question which of Scholz or Laschet leads it

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1442157383334211589?s=20

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1442158082600144901?s=20
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    dixiedean said:

    Absolutely no queues at my petrol station. All fuel available and only 2 of 6 pumps being used.

    Don’t tell people that! The selfish twunks will set off from around the nation and converge...
    Yes there really is no more selfish behaviour than wanting to make sure you have enough fuel to get your kids to school and yourself to work.
    Fine if you need fuel. How many yesterday didn’t actually need to fill up?
    Why is it so hard to believe people queuing to buy fuel need fuel? My local station hasn’t had fuel since Wed and there’s no public transport and little in the way of walkable amenities for many.

    Life’s a more pleasant experience when you stop instinctively leaning towards bitterness and condescension every time you look upon your fellow Man.

    Oh come on! All of them? Why didn’t they need it last week then? We went from 5-6 BP stations out of fuel, and a fair number missing one type to the scenes now, not because they all needed to fill up, but because they didn’t want to be the ones missing out. I understand it, I really do. But if you had a 3/4 full tank, no intention of driving more than 200 miles this coming week, but filled up anyway, I think you’ve been selfish AND caused the small issue to become a crisis.
  • Bet on Merkel still being Chancellor next year if possible.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I can't be the only one who's thoroughly bored by "Trans".

    Of course you are. But it is not your sex-based rights which are at risk. Nor how you describe yourself and are described.

    You might become slightly less bored by the topic when a teacher turns up at the school your daughter goes to and it turns out that they are a man who has legally become a woman in Scotland (if Sturgeon's GRA changes go through) after three months without any medical diagnosis of dysphoria and without having transitioned in any way and that such a teacher can access the loos and changing rooms your daughter uses.
    That’s a good point. The trans issue does not especially interest me now (except as a satisfied spectator of lefty civil wars) - but I have two daughters. Hmm

    One thing that does bug me is Starmer’s insistence (restated again today) that trans people are ‘the most marginalized of communities’ Is there anything to back this up? If there is, does it explain the modern Left’s obsession with trans rights - ie in their pursuit of intersectional privilege, or lack of, are trans people the intersect which meets maximum bigotry and hatred?

    I have my doubts there are enough trans people to make the data reliable, but who knows
    Trans people are protected under the Equality Act.

    Cyclefree said:

    I can't be the only one who's thoroughly bored by "Trans".

    Of course you are. But it is not your sex-based rights which are at risk. Nor how you describe yourself and are described.
    and changing rooms your daughter uses.
    I respect your position @Cyclefree but you have to also recognise that plenty of women do not feel their sex-based rights are under threat in the same way you do.
    Refusing to collect data about it is both daft and potentially dangerous.
    I refused to answer questions about my gender identity and sexuality on the diversity form to join my new employer.

    They've still confirmed my appointment. So good so far, but I suspect I'll find a dissenting line hard to navigate at director level.
    I wouldn't worry about it. The best thing to do is simply ignore the bullshit. That's what I do. I've also actively pushed back on something called "alignment groups" without any repercussions. The idea was that all the Asians or Jews or women could align themselves and ask for special treatment. It's something that's come over from our US office and I refused to implement them for my team by saying they'd be divisive. I argued my case to the directors and they agreed so junked them for London.
    Thanks Max. I also heard on Friday from a colleague of mine that my old (well, current for the next 3 weeks) firm has just hired an EDI advisor, and we all know what that means.

    Looks like I got out just in time. I hope in my new firm, in my new position, I can find the courage to do what you did and push back against the more divisive lunacies of this.
    The worst part about this stuff is that no one specific is asking for it. I consulted with my team first before making my opposition known to the HR director and in the discussion not a single person who would be in favour of them based on their racial background was. In the end the discussion with the HR director was pretty good, though being Asian probably helped me while you won't have that in your back pocket.

    British thinking is completely different to the US where everyone seems to think like a victim of something or other. Maybe it's because we've got pretty tough culture fit standards and people who think in that manner don't make it through the door.
    That's true, I don't have that. I am a "white male". I can contrive various cards if I really wanted to - foreign wife, international school, first in family to go to university, cousins married to those of different races, probably slightly on the spectrum etc.

    But, I don't want to play it because that will perpetuate this nonsense - both for me and for everyone else.

    So, I will have to find another way. And it will be a harder way.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587
    HYUFD said:

    German exit polls:

    CDU/CSU: 25%
    SPD: 25%
    Greens: 15%
    AfD: 11%
    FDP: 11%
    Linke: 5%

    Better for Union than expected, looks like yet another Grand coalition if correct
    With CDU leading the coalition?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited September 2021

    The CDU/CSU are saying they want a CDU/CSU + Greens + FDP coalition

    Won't happen if the SPD are largest party, the Greens won't join that.

    Another Union and SPD grand coalition now almost certain, with maybe the Greens or FDP too
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    edited September 2021
    It looks like the CDU/CSU have the numbers to stay in office if they can cobble together a coalition with the Greens and the FDP but that must be unlikely given their policy differences.
  • The CDU/CSU are saying they want a CDU/CSU + Greens + FDP coalition

    Yes, that would be the obvious choice.

    Not sure their leader is strong enough to command it though.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    German exit polls:

    CDU/CSU: 25%
    SPD: 25%
    Greens: 15%
    AfD: 11%
    FDP: 11%
    Linke: 5%

    Better for Union than expected, looks like yet another Grand coalition if correct
    With CDU leading the coalition?
    Depends who wins most seats, looks like the closest German election since 2002
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286

    Bet on Merkel still being Chancellor next year if possible.

    She needs to stay in office for another 85 days to beat Helmet Kohl's record for longest serving chancellor since 1945.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_chancellors_of_Germany
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Andy_JS said:

    It looks like the CDU/CSU have the numbers to stay in office if they can cobble together a coalition with the Greens and the FDP but that must be unlikely given their policy differences.

    Yeah. But it's a bit on a knife edge isn't it?
    I mean this could come down to a few tens of thousands of votes for first place.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    HYUFD said:

    The CDU/CSU are saying they want a CDU/CSU + Greens + FDP coalition

    Won't happen if the SPD are largest party, the Greens won't join that.

    Another Union and SPD grand coalition now almost certain, with maybe the Greens or FDP too
    Rubbish, it is very far from certain, it's third likeliest coalition on those numbers, and if it does happen it almost certainly won't involve a third party, why on earth would it?
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 755
    MaxPB said:

    Selebian said:

    Breaking

    Starmer says Rosie Duffield is wrong saying only women have a cervix

    I am astonished he has not stood above this issue

    I assume he was directly asked? Foolish to get involved, if not.

    I would however agree that Duffield is wrong and very clearly so. Even leaving trans-women out of the picture, doesn't a hysterectomy sometimes (often?) involve removal of the cervix?

    Edit: No, I've misread what she's reported to have said - not that all women have a cervix, but that only women have a cervix. That's more open to interpretations of what is a man and what is a woman. So, scrub out my comment on Duffield, without me knowing more of the facts.
    I'm actually surprised that Starmer fell into the trap. He's now on the side of denying basic fucking biology.
    It's not very lawyerly.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It looks like the CDU/CSU have the numbers to stay in office if they can cobble together a coalition with the Greens and the FDP but that must be unlikely given their policy differences.

    Yeah. But it's a bit on a knife edge isn't it?
    I mean this could come down to a few tens of thousands of votes for first place.
    Is who comes first important, or does the biggest party in the current government get first shot at forming a coalition?
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,919
    edited September 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Selebian said:

    Breaking

    Starmer says Rosie Duffield is wrong saying only women have a cervix

    I am astonished he has not stood above this issue

    I assume he was directly asked? Foolish to get involved, if not.

    I would however agree that Duffield is wrong and very clearly so. Even leaving trans-women out of the picture, doesn't a hysterectomy sometimes (often?) involve removal of the cervix?

    Edit: No, I've misread what she's reported to have said - not that all women have a cervix, but that only women have a cervix. That's more open to interpretations of what is a man and what is a woman. So, scrub out my comment on Duffield, without me knowing more of the facts.
    I'm actually surprised that Starmer fell into the trap. He's now on the side of denying basic fucking biology.
    Starmer is a lawyer. The side he’s on right now is the side of affirming standing UK law: as currently enacted the legal reality is that trans women are women & trans men are men. (The act talks in terms of “gender reassignment” - to be more precise, if you want to treat a trans- person differently from someone born in that gender then under the Act, you need to have an extremely good reason drawn from a very short list. Otherwise, you have to treat them as equivalent for legal purposes.)

    If you want to repeal the 2010 Equality Act, then feel free to get right on that but Starmer is not saying anything that’s controversial about the current situation in UK law.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Live coverage from Germany in English here.

    https://www.dw.com/en/media-center/live-tv/s-100825
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited September 2021
    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    The CDU/CSU are saying they want a CDU/CSU + Greens + FDP coalition

    Won't happen if the SPD are largest party, the Greens won't join that.

    Another Union and SPD grand coalition now almost certain, with maybe the Greens or FDP too
    Rubbish, it is very far from certain, it's third likeliest coalition on those numbers, and if it does happen it almost certainly won't involve a third party, why on earth would it?
    SPD, Greens and Linke do not have the numbers on either exit poll for a leftwing government, nor do Union and FDP for a centre right government. The pro business FDP and the Greens are not natural allies and would be wary of going into government with each other.

    So that means it will have to involve bargaining with another grand coalition a strong possibility
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Andy_JS said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It looks like the CDU/CSU have the numbers to stay in office if they can cobble together a coalition with the Greens and the FDP but that must be unlikely given their policy differences.

    Yeah. But it's a bit on a knife edge isn't it?
    I mean this could come down to a few tens of thousands of votes for first place.
    Is who comes first important, or does the biggest party in the current government get first shot at forming a coalition?
    I dunno. Officially. But it would seem the largest Party would be morally entitled to first dibs.
    If it's a tie, goodness only knows.
  • HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    The CDU/CSU are saying they want a CDU/CSU + Greens + FDP coalition

    Won't happen if the SPD are largest party, the Greens won't join that.

    Another Union and SPD grand coalition now almost certain, with maybe the Greens or FDP too
    Rubbish, it is very far from certain, it's third likeliest coalition on those numbers, and if it does happen it almost certainly won't involve a third party, why on earth would it?
    SPD, Greens and Linke do not have the numbers on either exit poll for a leftwing government, nor do Union and FDP for a centre right government. The pro business FDP and the Greens are not natural allies and would be wary of going into government with each other

    So that means it will have to involve bargaining with another grand coalition a strong possibility
    Doesn't @kamski live in Germany and is this you again telling someone who actually lives there that you know best
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited September 2021

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    The CDU/CSU are saying they want a CDU/CSU + Greens + FDP coalition

    Won't happen if the SPD are largest party, the Greens won't join that.

    Another Union and SPD grand coalition now almost certain, with maybe the Greens or FDP too
    Rubbish, it is very far from certain, it's third likeliest coalition on those numbers, and if it does happen it almost certainly won't involve a third party, why on earth would it?
    SPD, Greens and Linke do not have the numbers on either exit poll for a leftwing government, nor do Union and FDP for a centre right government. The pro business FDP and the Greens are not natural allies and would be wary of going into government with each other

    So that means it will have to involve bargaining with another grand coalition a strong possibility
    Doesn't @kamski live in Germany and is this you again telling someone who actually lives there that you know best
    I could live on Mars and still read polls and exit polls and what they mean, kamski is also centre left and was pushing SPD, Green, Linke before the election which is now not possible on the exit polls
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    edited September 2021
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re Germany. Well, more musing really. And haven't googled.
    Off the top of my head, which was the last election of a major country won by the candidate of the right?
    It can't be Boris, can it?

    It was. If the SPD win tonight then Boris will be the only centre right leader of a G7 nation left apart from the PM of Japan.

    Would show how well Boris has done and is doing to still have a poll lead given a post Covid social democratic tide in the western world rather like the tide to the centre left in the late 1990s
    Gibberish to call the US democrat president man of left. He is right of centre. Macron no more left than Boris.
  • Sky now actually showing with subtitles Rayner's address to the activists last night
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited September 2021
    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re Germany. Well, more musing really. And haven't googled.
    Off the top of my head, which was the last election of a major country won by the candidate of the right?
    It can't be Boris, can it?

    It was. If the SPD win tonight then Boris will be the only centre right leader of a G7 nation left apart from the PM of Japan.

    Would show how well Boris has done and is doing to still have a poll lead given a post Covid social democratic tide in the western world rather like the tide to the centre left in the late 1990s
    Gibberish to call the US democrat president man of left. He is right of centre.
    In US terms Biden is centre left and the Democrats control congress too.

    In US terms the CDU would be centrist even centre left but in German terms they are centre right and you measure it on which is the main centre left or centre right party in each nation
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    The CDU/CSU are saying they want a CDU/CSU + Greens + FDP coalition

    Won't happen if the SPD are largest party, the Greens won't join that.

    Another Union and SPD grand coalition now almost certain, with maybe the Greens or FDP too
    Rubbish, it is very far from certain, it's third likeliest coalition on those numbers, and if it does happen it almost certainly won't involve a third party, why on earth would it?
    SPD, Greens and Linke do not have the numbers on either exit poll for a leftwing government, nor do Union and FDP for a centre right government. The pro business FDP and the Greens are not natural allies and would be wary of going into government with each other

    So that means it will have to involve bargaining with another grand coalition a strong possibility
    Doesn't @kamski live in Germany and is this you again telling someone who actually lives there that you know best
    I could live on Mars and still read polls and exit polls and what they mean, kamski is also centre left and was pushing SPD, Green, Linke before the election which is now not possible on the exit polls
    To some you do live on Mars
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949

    Sky now actually showing with subtitles Rayner's address to the activists last night

    I've never really understood why parties let journalists into all events at conferences. It's a space for the choir to preach to each other, obviously it isn't always going to look good to the outside world.
  • Afternoon folks

    This may already have been mentioned but the Telegraph has a commentary piece written by John Sergeant and headlined:

    "I lived through the winter of discontent – this is how Boris can avoid turning into Ted Heath"

    Am I wrong in thinking either Sergeant or the headline writer has this wrong? I thought the Winter of Discontent was under Callaghan in 1978. Heath wasn't even Leader of the Opposition let alone PM by then.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704

    Sky now actually showing with subtitles Rayner's address to the activists last night

    I thought discussion of this was banned ?
  • Afternoon folks

    This may already have been mentioned but the Telegraph has a commentary piece written by John Sergeant and headlined:

    "I lived through the winter of discontent – this is how Boris can avoid turning into Ted Heath"

    Am I wrong in thinking either Sergeant or the headline writer has this wrong? I thought the Winter of Discontent was under Callaghan in 1978. Heath wasn't even Leader of the Opposition let alone PM by then.

    Of course you are right Richard, but perhaps it is jut a mixed metaphor?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    edited September 2021
    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re Germany. Well, more musing really. And haven't googled.
    Off the top of my head, which was the last election of a major country won by the candidate of the right?
    It can't be Boris, can it?

    It was. If the SPD win tonight then Boris will be the only centre right leader of a G7 nation left apart from the PM of Japan.

    Would show how well Boris has done and is doing to still have a poll lead given a post Covid social democratic tide in the western world rather like the tide to the centre left in the late 1990s
    Gibberish to call the US democrat president man of left. He is right of centre. Macron no more left than Boris.
    Tbf to @HYUFD. His comment was in response to my question of when the last major election victory went to the candidate of the right? And astonishment it was actually Boris.
    Biden may be centre-right. As I'd argue is Trudeau.
    But they weren't the candidates of the right.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Taz said:

    Sky now actually showing with subtitles Rayner's address to the activists last night

    I thought discussion of this was banned ?
    I think it's specific to her marital status and age at which she had a child. The whole discussion around it is ridiculous anyway. Glad to have it put out of bounds.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,079
    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It looks like the CDU/CSU have the numbers to stay in office if they can cobble together a coalition with the Greens and the FDP but that must be unlikely given their policy differences.

    Yeah. But it's a bit on a knife edge isn't it?
    I mean this could come down to a few tens of thousands of votes for first place.
    Hard to see how the Union can lead a coalition after losing a quarter or so of their support since the last GE.
  • Well 2nd ZDF exit poll has Union leading and they are 3/1 most seats on BF.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    dixiedean said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re Germany. Well, more musing really. And haven't googled.
    Off the top of my head, which was the last election of a major country won by the candidate of the right?
    It can't be Boris, can it?

    It was. If the SPD win tonight then Boris will be the only centre right leader of a G7 nation left apart from the PM of Japan.

    Would show how well Boris has done and is doing to still have a poll lead given a post Covid social democratic tide in the western world rather like the tide to the centre left in the late 1990s
    Gibberish to call the US democrat president man of left. He is right of centre. Macron no more left than Boris.
    Tbf to @HYUFD. His comment was in response to my question of when the last major election victory went to the candidate of the right? And astonishment it was actually Boris.
    Biden may be centre-right. As I'd argue is Trudeau.
    But they weren't the candidates of the right?
    Exactly, the GOP are the party of the centre right in the US, the Conservative Party of Canada is the centre right party in Canada, not Biden and not Trudeau (Trudeau is more centrist, effectively leading a centre left government now with the leftwing NDP).

    The CDU would not be considered rightwing in the US and indeed most of the Anglosphere, indeed the FDP is the more Thatcherite party in Germany economically and the AfD the most rightwing party on social issues but the CDU/CSU is still the main centre right block in Germany
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Gotta love PR. I wouldn’t be surprised if Germany has another election.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    I really hope Linke don't make it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited September 2021
    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re Germany. Well, more musing really. And haven't googled.
    Off the top of my head, which was the last election of a major country won by the candidate of the right?
    It can't be Boris, can it?

    It was. If the SPD win tonight then Boris will be the only centre right leader of a G7 nation left apart from the PM of Japan.

    Would show how well Boris has done and is doing to still have a poll lead given a post Covid social democratic tide in the western world rather like the tide to the centre left in the late 1990s
    Gibberish to call the US democrat president man of left. He is right of centre. Macron no more left than Boris.
    Macron is a social liberal and a pro immigration globalist and pro EU unlike Boris who has delivered Brexit and ended free movement to the UK from the EU/EEA.

    Biden is also a social liberal, pro immigration globalist even if not a socialist
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949

    Well 2nd ZDF exit poll has Union leading and they are 3/1 most seats on BF.....

    Can you link? I can't find this second exit poll on Twitter. Might it be for a single region?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Well 2nd ZDF exit poll has Union leading and they are 3/1 most seats on BF.....

    What was their first one showing?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,079

    Well 2nd ZDF exit poll has Union leading and they are 3/1 most seats on BF.....

    Yeah, I thought that value, but how proportional is the system?
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    Foxy said:

    Well 2nd ZDF exit poll has Union leading and they are 3/1 most seats on BF.....

    Yeah, I thought that value, but how proportional is the system?
    System is perfectly proportional. The Bundestag literally expands adding more PR seats as necessary to ensure the overall result matches the vote %s.
  • Afternoon folks

    This may already have been mentioned but the Telegraph has a commentary piece written by John Sergeant and headlined:

    "I lived through the winter of discontent – this is how Boris can avoid turning into Ted Heath"

    Am I wrong in thinking either Sergeant or the headline writer has this wrong? I thought the Winter of Discontent was under Callaghan in 1978. Heath wasn't even Leader of the Opposition let alone PM by then.

    Of course you are right Richard, but perhaps it is jut a mixed metaphor?
    Probably. January/February 1974 was clearly a discontented winter, but not The Winter of Discontent.

    Though Taking Back Control from Boris would be an amusing echo of "Who Runs Britain? / Not You Ted".
  • Quoted on BBC news site - also the 25/25 poll gave Union a small seat lead, also if exit poll excludes postals and old people (ie Union voters) vote more by post, again favours Union
  • tlg86 said:

    Gotta love PR. I wouldn’t be surprised if Germany has another election.

    They could just have 4 years of coalition negotiations while Merkel carries on.
This discussion has been closed.