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LAB to get a poll lead before Oct 12th – new betting market – politicalbetting.com

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,859
    edited September 2021
    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    The last time Labour got a lead it was with Yougov and mainly due to Tory losses to RefUK and DK rather than switching to Labour.

    Labour has yet to really see any big swing from the Tories since 2019, it remains to be see whether the conference season will make much difference to that

    Completely O/T from the last thread...but just letting you know that I was triumphantly re-elected to Surrey County Council in May with an increased majority.
    Congratulations, though I think you said you lost a seat on here at one stage, maybe it was for district.

    I must have been the 2019 district elections you lost a seat (like a lot of Tories) but glad to see you were comfortably re elected for county this year
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,616
    What do we make of the German elections?

    I put a smallish bet on the union at 5.1 on smarkets, thinking odds might come in, not that they'd win. Laid it off (well, backed spd as odds a bit better) a few days back to give me ~20% profit either way. Now wondering whether I should have seen it out!
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,969
    edited September 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And if you’re one of the many Tory MPs, “disgusted” and “outraged” by Angela Rayner’s comments, but not overly bothered by Boris Johnson’s compete and overt racism, then you don’t have a leg to stand on.
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1442039794654121989

    It's a fair point.
    I don't think it's clever politics from Rayner, it's a bit rash. But I still prefer rash and right over calculated and wrong.
    Not really, because Johnson's racism is half arsed and plausibly deniable.
    Everything about Johnson is half arsed and plausibly deniable.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,011
    Starmer confirming he’d give in to every demand made by whining companies wanting cheap labour.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Jonathan said:

    Would be nice if the government actually thought about solving problems rather than creating headlines and defending their dogma against reality.

    When you have a Peronist government run by journalists, you're not going to get anything other than what we have.

    Trouble is that the Person / Berlusconi playbook is an excellent way to stay popular for a long time.

    It's just a terrible way to run a prosperous country.
    Given the murder/torture/oppression strategies employed by Peron it’s hardly fair to equate him to Berlusconi (or Boris). Peron was more like Franco or Mussolini
  • Marr

    Starmer to bring in 100,000 foreign drivers to resolve the issue
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,616
    Selebian said:

    What do we make of the German elections?

    I put a smallish bet on the union at 5.1 on smarkets, thinking odds might come in, not that they'd win. Laid it off (well, backed spd as odds a bit better) a few days back to give me ~20% profit either way. Now wondering whether I should have seen it out!

    Actually scrub that, just BBC getting over excited. Nothing much changed in polls or betting
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,645
    tlg86 said:

    Starmer confirming he’d give in to every demand made by whining companies wanting cheap labour.

    The values of Keir Starmer are not those of Keir Hardie
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276

    tlg86 said:

    Some gobshite shouting “where’s the opposition” outside the BBC studio in Brighton.

    Was it Jeremy Corbyn? The giveaway was "outside"... for the moment anyway.
    He's still there. His whip is suspended but he is a member.

    David Evans didn't quite get the answer he was looking for when he asked #Lab21 delegates why they joined Labour
    ♫ Oh Jeremy Corbyn! ♫ https://t.co/gTOxjMVbMu

    https://twitter.com/troovus/status/1441793603886530563?s=19

    And speaking against the new cold war:

    https://www.cityam.com/aukus-pact-is-crazy-beyond-belief-as-it-triggers-new-cold-war-says-jeremy-corbyn/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,011
    Fair play to Andrew Marr, for once he’s actually doing a pretty good job on the Labour leader.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 3,996
    Jonathan said:

    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    The last time Labour got a lead it was with Yougov and mainly due to Tory losses to RefUK and DK rather than switching to Labour.

    Labour has yet to really see any big swing from the Tories since 2019, it remains to be see whether the conference season will make much difference to that

    Completely O/T from the last thread...but just letting you know that I was triumphantly re-elected to Surrey County Council in May with an increased majority.
    Glad see there’s at least one non nutter left in the Tory party. Keep well JohnO.
    Many thanks and I'm the licensed COG* in the Tory Group. And I've officially become a state pensioner today and already lamenting the loss of my Triple Lock.

    *Curmudgeonly Old Git
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,901
    tlg86 said:

    Starmer confirming he’d give in to every demand made by whining companies wanting cheap labour.

    Not trying to win back the Red Wall then, siding with the boss class over the workers.
  • HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And if you’re one of the many Tory MPs, “disgusted” and “outraged” by Angela Rayner’s comments, but not overly bothered by Boris Johnson’s compete and overt racism, then you don’t have a leg to stand on.
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1442039794654121989

    Boris' 'complete and overt racism' of course has somehow led him to appoint the first British Asian Chancellor and the first British Asian Home Secretary and the fist Black British Business Secretary and the first British Asian Education Secretary

    And Jeremy Corbyn has Jewish friends.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,347
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    Mr. Sandpit, working on a Sunday? Alas.

    Don't they have Sundays on Fridays out there?
    Yes. Their God expects you to tell him or her how wonderful s/he is on Friday, while ours mostly listens on Sunday.

    You can see how somebody from Mars might be confused. Or maybe the Martian God is a Tuesday person.
    To be fair, he’s the same God so he’s just balancing his workload
    What makes you think it is the same God? Clearly one or other tradition has got major aspects wrong.
    They have the same origin story, the rest is mere detail.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,030
    Breaking:

    Keir Starmer calls for 100,000 foreign drivers to be given visas to fill vacancies

    'We're going to have to do that. We have to issue enough visas to cover the number of drivers that we need. 100,000 is the size of a small city'

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1442045828214886400

    “We exited the EU. One consequence was going to be a shortage of HGV drivers. That was predictable”, says Starmer, who partly blames Brexit for the skills shortages. #Marr
    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1442045926806200320
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276
    Selebian said:

    What do we make of the German elections?

    I put a smallish bet on the union at 5.1 on smarkets, thinking odds might come in, not that they'd win. Laid it off (well, backed spd as odds a bit better) a few days back to give me ~20% profit either way. Now wondering whether I should have seen it out!

    I have some modest bets on a CDU revival to top the poll, and for an SPD Green FD coalition.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,347

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Given that there are plentiful supplies of fuel, when do we expect the panic buying to end? I am hoping that once the idiots have all filled up, the rest of us will be able to.

    Would be nice if this was soon. Didn’t join the crazy, crazy so now having to ration trips, which means explaining to teenagers why I might not be able to take the to their sport clubs. Not a huge amount of fun.

    All the petrol stations with 10 miles are cleaned out.

    Yep, here too.

    Mrs RP sent a photo yesterday from her vantage point in "Annie's Cakery" of a full forecourt and queue down the road at the little Gleaner station in Macduff. OK so we're all reliant on cars up here, but the transition from no real flap on Friday to all the big filling stations emptied by Saturday lunchtime was bonkers.

    I wryly suggested she get down there and ask if they have a 3 pin you can plug your car into so you don't miss out.
    This feels a bit different to previous panics. Not seen such a complete clean out before. I hope it get sorted out in the next 48hrs, but would not be surprised if it wasn’t.
    Panics always die down. The point I made on a local PB group was that there was no shortage up here. No problem with deliveries. Until people saw the panic 600 miles away and said "oh no!!!!" and went to fill up.
    OGH has set up local groups for PBers?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs

    European Road Hauliers Association says temporary visa scheme won't tempt many EU drivers to the UK because pay and conditions are better in the EU, in part thanks to new EU rules, while Brexit red tape at customs is a big disencentive to driving to the UK.
    Rather bursts the bubble of those claiming we had to leave the EU to create a workers' paradise. Brexit = more red tape at the border + deregulation internally = fewer right for workers. It's a massive con perpetrated against the British working class by the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world.

    The truckers are all getting pay rises, I’m not sure they’re complaining too much.

    The ERHA are also confusing cross-border freight traffic into the UK, with UK-based hauliers looking to recruit drivers from abroad.
    If being in the EU undercut UK pay and conditions, how come pay and conditions are better in the EU than here? If the EU damages workers' rights, how come EU rules are more generous to workers than ours are?
    AIUI the UK driver shortage affects both cross border and purely internal routes (and there is a lot of overlap between the two, one of the great benefits of the Single Market being that it gets rid of these artificial distinctions created by borders).
    AIUI, France and Germany pay more for drivers than the UK does - because under the EU rules, more Eastern European workers found it prefereble to work in the UK so supply of labour was higher. Now there’s no longer FoM, and no new drivers coming over, the supply of labour is more restricted and the price is going up - heading towards the same price as we see in France and Germany.
    But wages are higher across the board in Germany ( and many other European countries besides ). it can't be be isolated to a short-term process in one sector.

    The UK chose to gut its trade union movement, so making it much harder for employees to work together to secure good wages. There are any number of people on this board and beyond proclaiming the need for better salaries across multiple sectors who have spent years routinely denouncing each and every strike ever called designed to secure higher pay and improved conditions.

    The strikes were political for the most part. Economic disputes get resolved fairly quickly

    Yes, strong trade unions deliver results for their members.

    And that’s exactly the problem. Like any interest group they care about their members to the exclusion of others
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs

    European Road Hauliers Association says temporary visa scheme won't tempt many EU drivers to the UK because pay and conditions are better in the EU, in part thanks to new EU rules, while Brexit red tape at customs is a big disencentive to driving to the UK.
    Rather bursts the bubble of those claiming we had to leave the EU to create a workers' paradise. Brexit = more red tape at the border + deregulation internally = fewer right for workers. It's a massive con perpetrated against the British working class by the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world.

    The truckers are all getting pay rises, I’m not sure they’re complaining too much.

    The ERHA are also confusing cross-border freight traffic into the UK, with UK-based hauliers looking to recruit drivers from abroad.
    If being in the EU undercut UK pay and conditions, how come pay and conditions are better in the EU than here? If the EU damages workers' rights, how come EU rules are more generous to workers than ours are?
    AIUI the UK driver shortage affects both cross border and purely internal routes (and there is a lot of overlap between the two, one of the great benefits of the Single Market being that it gets rid of these artificial distinctions created by borders).
    AIUI, France and Germany pay more for drivers than the UK does - because under the EU rules, more Eastern European workers found it prefereble to work in the UK so supply of labour was higher. Now there’s no longer FoM, and no new drivers coming over, the supply of labour is more restricted and the price is going up - heading towards the same price as we see in France and Germany.
    But wages are higher across the board in Germany ( and many other European countries besides ). it can't be be isolated to a short-term process in one sector.

    The UK chose to gut its trade union movement, so making it much harder for employees to work together to secure good wages. There are any number of people on this board and beyond proclaiming the need for better salaries across multiple sectors who have spent years routinely denouncing each and every strike ever called designed to secure higher pay and improved conditions.

    The strikes were political for the most part. Economic disputes get resolved fairly quickly

    Yes, strong trade unions deliver results for their members.

    And that’s exactly the problem. Like any interest group they care about their members to the exclusion of others
  • What is going to happen to delivery shortages if we get heavy snow this winter? Do we even have enough people to drive the gritters? Regardless of the weather the roads will get busier as people continue to move from wfh to the office and traffic slows down in the winter rush hours with more accidents due to dark mornings and evenings.

    The idea that (up to) 5000 for two and a half months is going to make much difference is strange. If we can't cope now, in daylight rush hours and good weather we have big problems ahead.
  • Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Starmer confirming he’d give in to every demand made by whining companies wanting cheap labour.

    Not trying to win back the Red Wall then, siding with the boss class over the workers.
    Do the workers win with rolling shortages and a ruined Christmas?
  • Scott_xP said:

    Breaking:

    Keir Starmer calls for 100,000 foreign drivers to be given visas to fill vacancies

    'We're going to have to do that. We have to issue enough visas to cover the number of drivers that we need. 100,000 is the size of a small city'

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1442045828214886400

    “We exited the EU. One consequence was going to be a shortage of HGV drivers. That was predictable”, says Starmer, who partly blames Brexit for the skills shortages. #Marr
    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1442045926806200320

    Tell that to the red wall
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,783

    Marr

    Starmer to bring in 100,000 foreign drivers to resolve the issue

    Presumably he is just going to wish them into existence?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,030
    Keir Starmer accuses the Government of a "complete lack of planning" over the HGV driver shortage / petrol crunch, saying the PM "cannot take key decisions".
    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1442046470627086340
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,011
    The thing about the 100,000 vacancies is that there are always lots of vacancies in all industries including in the NHS.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Crisis? What crisis?

    Transport Secretary Grant Shapps
    says at least the petrol crisis isnt as bad as the toilet roll crisis.

    "At some point everyone's cars will be filled up. It is not like the toilet roll crisis. It will come to an end."

    #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442035769044967424

    Brilliant, Grant; do tanks stay full? Why not:

    "At some point, everyone's bottom will be clean. It is not like the petrol shortage crisis. It will come to an end".
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,030

    Tell that to the red wall

    The ones who can't fill their cars or the ones who can't get their groceries?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,859
    Foxy said:

    Selebian said:

    What do we make of the German elections?

    I put a smallish bet on the union at 5.1 on smarkets, thinking odds might come in, not that they'd win. Laid it off (well, backed spd as odds a bit better) a few days back to give me ~20% profit either way. Now wondering whether I should have seen it out!

    I have some modest bets on a CDU revival to top the poll, and for an SPD Green FD coalition.
    If the Union and SPD are near tied then a grand coalition again is probably likely, if the SPD are clearly ahead then the Union likely head for opposition
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,783
    JohnO said:

    Jonathan said:

    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    The last time Labour got a lead it was with Yougov and mainly due to Tory losses to RefUK and DK rather than switching to Labour.

    Labour has yet to really see any big swing from the Tories since 2019, it remains to be see whether the conference season will make much difference to that

    Completely O/T from the last thread...but just letting you know that I was triumphantly re-elected to Surrey County Council in May with an increased majority.
    Glad see there’s at least one non nutter left in the Tory party. Keep well JohnO.
    Many thanks and I'm the licensed COG* in the Tory Group. And I've officially become a state pensioner today and already lamenting the loss of my Triple Lock.

    *Curmudgeonly Old Git
    If you have only just reached pensioner age I am surprised you haven't just left the Young Conservatives.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,969
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Given that there are plentiful supplies of fuel, when do we expect the panic buying to end? I am hoping that once the idiots have all filled up, the rest of us will be able to.

    Would be nice if this was soon. Didn’t join the crazy, crazy so now having to ration trips, which means explaining to teenagers why I might not be able to take the to their sport clubs. Not a huge amount of fun.

    All the petrol stations with 10 miles are cleaned out.

    Yep, here too.

    Mrs RP sent a photo yesterday from her vantage point in "Annie's Cakery" of a full forecourt and queue down the road at the little Gleaner station in Macduff. OK so we're all reliant on cars up here, but the transition from no real flap on Friday to all the big filling stations emptied by Saturday lunchtime was bonkers.

    I wryly suggested she get down there and ask if they have a 3 pin you can plug your car into so you don't miss out.
    This feels a bit different to previous panics. Not seen such a complete clean out before. I hope it get sorted out in the next 48hrs, but would not be surprised if it wasn’t.
    Panics always die down. The point I made on a local PB group was that there was no shortage up here. No problem with deliveries. Until people saw the panic 600 miles away and said "oh no!!!!" and went to fill up.
    OGH has set up local groups for PBers?
    Well... yes. To be allowed to post here you have to have been elected as a delegate from your local group.
    Clearly you have not, so I'll have a word with the admins and get you removed, shouldn't take a moment.
  • Marr is really embarrassing Starmer
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 3,996
    edited September 2021
    HYUFD said:

    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    The last time Labour got a lead it was with Yougov and mainly due to Tory losses to RefUK and DK rather than switching to Labour.

    Labour has yet to really see any big swing from the Tories since 2019, it remains to be see whether the conference season will make much difference to that

    Completely O/T from the last thread...but just letting you know that I was triumphantly re-elected to Surrey County Council in May with an increased majority.
    Congratulations, though I think you said you lost a seat on here at one stage, maybe it was for district.

    I must have been the 2019 district elections you lost a seat (like a lot of Tories) but glad to see you were comfortably re elected for county this year
    Yep, I narrowly lost my Borough seat in 2016, mostly because of boundary changes as the Council was reduced from 60 to 48 seats and so had an all-out election and had a disastrous night. And you're right, good memory, I also lost (as a very reluctant candidate) in a different ward in 2019. I knew we were doomed after the first morning of canvassing. Let's say Mrs May was not an asset.
  • Marr is really embarrassing Starmer

    Incorrect.

    Starmer is embarrassing Starmer.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,011
    Oh, Starmer looking like a complete twat....

    5. Common ownership

    Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system.


    Starmer this morning: “I don’t see nationalisation there.”
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs

    European Road Hauliers Association says temporary visa scheme won't tempt many EU drivers to the UK because pay and conditions are better in the EU, in part thanks to new EU rules, while Brexit red tape at customs is a big disencentive to driving to the UK.
    Rather bursts the bubble of those claiming we had to leave the EU to create a workers' paradise. Brexit = more red tape at the border + deregulation internally = fewer right for workers. It's a massive con perpetrated against the British working class by the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world.

    The truckers are all getting pay rises, I’m not sure they’re complaining too much.

    The ERHA are also confusing cross-border freight traffic into the UK, with UK-based hauliers looking to recruit drivers from abroad.
    If being in the EU undercut UK pay and conditions, how come pay and conditions are better in the EU than here? If the EU damages workers' rights, how come EU rules are more generous to workers than ours are?
    AIUI the UK driver shortage affects both cross border and purely internal routes (and there is a lot of overlap between the two, one of the great benefits of the Single Market being that it gets rid of these artificial distinctions created by borders).
    AIUI, France and Germany pay more for drivers than the UK does - because under the EU rules, more Eastern European workers found it prefereble to work in the UK so supply of labour was higher. Now there’s no longer FoM, and no new drivers coming over, the supply of labour is more restricted and the price is going up - heading towards the same price as we see in France and Germany.
    But wages are higher across the board in Germany ( and many other European countries besides ). it can't be be isolated to a short-term process in one sector.

    The UK chose to gut its trade union movement, so making it much harder for employees to work together to secure good wages. There are any number of people on this board and beyond proclaiming the need for better salaries across multiple sectors who have spent years routinely denouncing each and every strike ever called designed to secure higher pay and improved conditions.

    The strikes were political for the most part. Economic disputes get resolved fairly quickly

    Yes, strong trade unions deliver results for their members.

    And that’s exactly the problem. Like any interest group they care about their members to the exclusion of others
    Are Tories in favour of stronger negotiating positions for workers or not? Trade Unions are specifically for that purpose.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,347

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And if you’re one of the many Tory MPs, “disgusted” and “outraged” by Angela Rayner’s comments, but not overly bothered by Boris Johnson’s compete and overt racism, then you don’t have a leg to stand on.
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1442039794654121989

    Boris' 'complete and overt racism' of course has somehow led him to appoint the first British Asian Chancellor and the first British Asian Home Secretary and the fist Black British Business Secretary and the first British Asian Education Secretary

    And Jeremy Corbyn has Jewish friends.

    Nevertheless it does mean headline accusations for either need a lot more behind them before regular people believe it. For Corbyn it took years before it started being said commonly by his opponents, and I'm not sure if it is a majority view even now. For Boris plenty do say it but usually using the same 3 or 4 examples.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,099
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    isam said:

    Not having Rayner as a potential leader one bit. First time I’ve heard her speak and comes across terribly to me

    https://twitter.com/ridgeonsunday/status/1442034501656346630?s=21

    This is the new politics. All the old standards on probity and conduct in public life have been dismembered and interred. Largely by Johnson.

    Anyway, she's right; they are scum.
    Yeah, I think she put up a good defence there.
    My default setting is friendly, so in theory I don't approve - I know and like people who have voted right across the spectrum, and I'll engage any opinion from fascism to flat earthism in a spirit of puzzled enquiry. But there are people who politicians like me can't reach in today's febrile, embittered climate, improverished, desperate and routinely victimised. Someone needs to speak up for them too in less than polite terms, so they feel that somebody is actually outraged on their behalf. It's a pity that it's necessary.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,011
    edited September 2021
    I reckon the BBC want Starmer out. They know he’s a dud and want him replaced.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    By relaxing the visa regime the government will have raised expectations that supply problems will now be resolved. By relaxing the visa regime in the way it has the government has almost certainly ensured that supply problems will not be resolved. There will either have to be further u-turns or this is going to be a long-term problem in multiple sectors.

    It was a mistake. BP was pushing hard for it because it was in BP’s interests not because it was best for the country. The government folded.
    There's gonnae be a lot of 'a big boy made me do it and ran away' in the next months.
    I have no problem with BP pushing for its own interests. The problem is the government cares more about headlines than anything else.

    The government is always the biggest boy in the room
  • Marr is really embarrassing Starmer

    Incorrect.

    Starmer is embarrassing Starmer.
    I am trying not to be partisan but I have my head in my hands listening to this
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,645
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs

    European Road Hauliers Association says temporary visa scheme won't tempt many EU drivers to the UK because pay and conditions are better in the EU, in part thanks to new EU rules, while Brexit red tape at customs is a big disencentive to driving to the UK.
    Rather bursts the bubble of those claiming we had to leave the EU to create a workers' paradise. Brexit = more red tape at the border + deregulation internally = fewer right for workers. It's a massive con perpetrated against the British working class by the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world.

    The truckers are all getting pay rises, I’m not sure they’re complaining too much.

    The ERHA are also confusing cross-border freight traffic into the UK, with UK-based hauliers looking to recruit drivers from abroad.
    If being in the EU undercut UK pay and conditions, how come pay and conditions are better in the EU than here? If the EU damages workers' rights, how come EU rules are more generous to workers than ours are?
    AIUI the UK driver shortage affects both cross border and purely internal routes (and there is a lot of overlap between the two, one of the great benefits of the Single Market being that it gets rid of these artificial distinctions created by borders).
    AIUI, France and Germany pay more for drivers than the UK does - because under the EU rules, more Eastern European workers found it prefereble to work in the UK so supply of labour was higher. Now there’s no longer FoM, and no new drivers coming over, the supply of labour is more restricted and the price is going up - heading towards the same price as we see in France and Germany.
    But wages are higher across the board in Germany ( and many other European countries besides ). it can't be be isolated to a short-term process in one sector.

    The UK chose to gut its trade union movement, so making it much harder for employees to work together to secure good wages. There are any number of people on this board and beyond proclaiming the need for better salaries across multiple sectors who have spent years routinely denouncing each and every strike ever called designed to secure higher pay and improved conditions.

    The strikes were political for the most part. Economic disputes get resolved fairly quickly

    Yes, strong trade unions deliver results for their members.

    And that’s exactly the problem. Like any interest group they care about their members to the exclusion of others
    Are Tories in favour of stronger negotiating positions for workers or not? Trade Unions are specifically for that purpose.
    yes.

    but for that to happen TUs need to have no party affiliation
  • DavidL said:

    Marr

    Starmer to bring in 100,000 foreign drivers to resolve the issue

    Presumably he is just going to wish them into existence?
    Think about it. We aren't going to find 100k foreign truck drivers. But if the government offers sufficient visas and people don't come, its the fault of the industry. If the government refuse to issue sufficient visas, its the fault of the government.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276

    Scott_xP said:

    Breaking:

    Keir Starmer calls for 100,000 foreign drivers to be given visas to fill vacancies

    'We're going to have to do that. We have to issue enough visas to cover the number of drivers that we need. 100,000 is the size of a small city'

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1442045828214886400

    “We exited the EU. One consequence was going to be a shortage of HGV drivers. That was predictable”, says Starmer, who partly blames Brexit for the skills shortages. #Marr
    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1442045926806200320

    So Starmer backs lazy git CEOs who scrimped on training and paying their work forces for years while inflating their own pay and bonuses by using cheap labor.
    Going for the old Tory vote?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Asked if there will be no turkeys this Christmas because of the driver shortage, Grant Shapps says

    "That is not true" #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442034094725083136

    Grant Shapps is right. The turkey shortage will be due to a lack of staff (Brexit) and carbon dioxide, not drivers.
    I think it is baked (roasted?) In already, as British farmers have hatched 20% fewer turkey chicks already.
    What have you baste those figures on?


    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/poultry-and-poultry-meat-statistics/monthly-statistics-on-the-activity-of-uk-hatcheries-and-uk-poultry-slaughterhouses-data-for-january-2021
    No complaints about being given the facts -- thank you -- but I was mostly using your post as a foil to make a pun.
    But interesting nonetheless..
    Glad we have that all wrapped up…
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,940
    .

    Foxy said:

    Three month visas, what a joke. “ Hi Johnny Foreigner, please come and deliver our stuff for three months so Christmas will go smoothly. Then bugger off so we can enjoy it without you”

    3 months isn't the problem - people travel home for Christmas anyway. Its the restricted numbers which are the problem - nowhere near enough.
    As a matter of interest, are foreign HGV licenses from Europe still recognised for people resident here? Or only while visiting from abroad on a temporary basis?
    Good question - don't know. Suspect that 3 months only means they are not classed as "resident" here.
    I would have thought, but I don't know, pretty much most of the harmonised transport rules have been domesticated without amendment. I would have thought in theory so long as the freedom of movement changes are lifted everything else remains much the same and EU drivers are free to work here.

    As to the the practicality of a hundred thousand French lorry drivers joining Hoyer UK and Eddie Stobart for 3 months, I have my doubts.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,969
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs

    European Road Hauliers Association says temporary visa scheme won't tempt many EU drivers to the UK because pay and conditions are better in the EU, in part thanks to new EU rules, while Brexit red tape at customs is a big disencentive to driving to the UK.
    Rather bursts the bubble of those claiming we had to leave the EU to create a workers' paradise. Brexit = more red tape at the border + deregulation internally = fewer right for workers. It's a massive con perpetrated against the British working class by the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world.

    The truckers are all getting pay rises, I’m not sure they’re complaining too much.

    The ERHA are also confusing cross-border freight traffic into the UK, with UK-based hauliers looking to recruit drivers from abroad.
    If being in the EU undercut UK pay and conditions, how come pay and conditions are better in the EU than here? If the EU damages workers' rights, how come EU rules are more generous to workers than ours are?
    AIUI the UK driver shortage affects both cross border and purely internal routes (and there is a lot of overlap between the two, one of the great benefits of the Single Market being that it gets rid of these artificial distinctions created by borders).
    AIUI, France and Germany pay more for drivers than the UK does - because under the EU rules, more Eastern European workers found it prefereble to work in the UK so supply of labour was higher. Now there’s no longer FoM, and no new drivers coming over, the supply of labour is more restricted and the price is going up - heading towards the same price as we see in France and Germany.
    But wages are higher across the board in Germany ( and many other European countries besides ). it can't be be isolated to a short-term process in one sector.

    The UK chose to gut its trade union movement, so making it much harder for employees to work together to secure good wages. There are any number of people on this board and beyond proclaiming the need for better salaries across multiple sectors who have spent years routinely denouncing each and every strike ever called designed to secure higher pay and improved conditions.

    The strikes were political for the most part. Economic disputes get resolved fairly quickly

    Yes, strong trade unions deliver results for their members.

    And that’s exactly the problem. Like any interest group they care about their members to the exclusion of others
    All of politics is about interest groups. A trade union isn't any different.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276
    edited September 2021
    tlg86 said:

    I reckon the BBC want Starmer out. They know he’s a dud and want him replaced.

    Representing the nation well then...

    Bring on PM Rayner!
  • Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    isam said:

    Not having Rayner as a potential leader one bit. First time I’ve heard her speak and comes across terribly to me

    https://twitter.com/ridgeonsunday/status/1442034501656346630?s=21

    This is the new politics. All the old standards on probity and conduct in public life have been dismembered and interred. Largely by Johnson.

    Anyway, she's right; they are scum.
    Yeah, I think she put up a good defence there.
    My default setting is friendly, so in theory I don't approve - I know and like people who have voted right across the spectrum, and I'll engage any opinion from fascism to flat earthism in a spirit of puzzled enquiry. But there are people who politicians like me can't reach in today's febrile, embittered climate, improverished, desperate and routinely victimised. Someone needs to speak up for them too in less than polite terms, so they feel that somebody is actually outraged on their behalf. It's a pity that it's necessary.
    Your approach is the right one. The moral criticism of Rayner's words is probably over the top, but from a political tactical point of view the only real winner from her comments is the Tory party.
  • And now we are on trans matters
  • tlg86 said:

    Oh, Starmer looking like a complete twat....

    5. Common ownership

    Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system.


    Starmer this morning: “I don’t see nationalisation there.”

    His point was that energy is not a "public service". The problem is that the Shadow Energy secretary thinks that is *is* a public service.
  • However bad this Starmer interview is - and it IS bad - think how bad it will be with Beaker next week.

    He can't just keep saying "Kermit the Frog".
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,859
    edited September 2021

    Marr is really embarrassing Starmer

    Incorrect.

    Starmer is embarrassing Starmer.
    Starmer says 'Angela and I take different approaches and I would not have used those words and am respectful in debate and will talk to her later on.'

    Mild rebuke there for Rayner from her leader
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,901

    And now we are on trans matters

    Because of course we are. Why let the opportunity to talk about divisive stuff in your own party go by.
  • And now Rayner's rant putting Starmer on the spot
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,011
    Starmer actually confirmed he thinks Rosie Duffield is in the wrong.
  • TazTaz Posts: 5,030

    And now we are on trans matters

    Getting to the heart of what matters.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,645
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Breaking:

    Keir Starmer calls for 100,000 foreign drivers to be given visas to fill vacancies

    'We're going to have to do that. We have to issue enough visas to cover the number of drivers that we need. 100,000 is the size of a small city'

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1442045828214886400

    “We exited the EU. One consequence was going to be a shortage of HGV drivers. That was predictable”, says Starmer, who partly blames Brexit for the skills shortages. #Marr
    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1442045926806200320

    So Starmer backs lazy git CEOs who scrimped on training and paying their work forces for years while inflating their own pay and bonuses by using cheap labor.
    Going for the old Tory vote?
    There's still this charming 1970s view that rich people are Tories. In the current environment a millionaire is just as likely to be a lefty corporatists as a tory fatcat. Its simply a measure that the old labels of left and right are fraying wildly at the edges.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And if you’re one of the many Tory MPs, “disgusted” and “outraged” by Angela Rayner’s comments, but not overly bothered by Boris Johnson’s compete and overt racism, then you don’t have a leg to stand on.
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1442039794654121989

    It's a fair point.
    I don't think it's clever politics from Rayner, it's a bit rash. But I still prefer rash and right over calculated and wrong.
    Not really, because Johnson's racism is half arsed and plausibly deniable.
    I don’t think Johnson is racist. I think he can’t avoid a cheap joke - whether it’s about colour, sex, weight, height, religion, whatever. Sometimes people will take offence and claim it demonstrates a specific set of beliefs
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs

    European Road Hauliers Association says temporary visa scheme won't tempt many EU drivers to the UK because pay and conditions are better in the EU, in part thanks to new EU rules, while Brexit red tape at customs is a big disencentive to driving to the UK.
    Rather bursts the bubble of those claiming we had to leave the EU to create a workers' paradise. Brexit = more red tape at the border + deregulation internally = fewer right for workers. It's a massive con perpetrated against the British working class by the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world.

    The truckers are all getting pay rises, I’m not sure they’re complaining too much.

    The ERHA are also confusing cross-border freight traffic into the UK, with UK-based hauliers looking to recruit drivers from abroad.
    If being in the EU undercut UK pay and conditions, how come pay and conditions are better in the EU than here? If the EU damages workers' rights, how come EU rules are more generous to workers than ours are?
    AIUI the UK driver shortage affects both cross border and purely internal routes (and there is a lot of overlap between the two, one of the great benefits of the Single Market being that it gets rid of these artificial distinctions created by borders).
    AIUI, France and Germany pay more for drivers than the UK does - because under the EU rules, more Eastern European workers found it prefereble to work in the UK so supply of labour was higher. Now there’s no longer FoM, and no new drivers coming over, the supply of labour is more restricted and the price is going up - heading towards the same price as we see in France and Germany.
    But wages are higher across the board in Germany ( and many other European countries besides ). it can't be be isolated to a short-term process in one sector.

    The UK chose to gut its trade union movement, so making it much harder for employees to work together to secure good wages. There are any number of people on this board and beyond proclaiming the need for better salaries across multiple sectors who have spent years routinely denouncing each and every strike ever called designed to secure higher pay and improved conditions.

    The strikes were political for the most part. Economic disputes get resolved fairly quickly

    Yes, strong trade unions deliver results for their members.

    And that’s exactly the problem. Like any interest group they care about their members to the exclusion of others
    Just like the British upper class, then.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,030
    New Observer / Opinium poll

    Voters, including Leave voters, blame Brexit for the current HGV crisis.

    68% think Brexit is completely / partly to blame.
    24% think it is not really / not to blame


    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1442048881165017091/photo/1
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276
    Charles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And if you’re one of the many Tory MPs, “disgusted” and “outraged” by Angela Rayner’s comments, but not overly bothered by Boris Johnson’s compete and overt racism, then you don’t have a leg to stand on.
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1442039794654121989

    It's a fair point.
    I don't think it's clever politics from Rayner, it's a bit rash. But I still prefer rash and right over calculated and wrong.
    Not really, because Johnson's racism is half arsed and plausibly deniable.
    I don’t think Johnson is racist. I think he can’t avoid a cheap joke - whether it’s about colour, sex, weight, height, religion, whatever. Sometimes people will take offence and claim it demonstrates a specific set of beliefs
    I think you are right. He doesn't believe in anything.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 14,139
    edited September 2021

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Breaking:

    Keir Starmer calls for 100,000 foreign drivers to be given visas to fill vacancies

    'We're going to have to do that. We have to issue enough visas to cover the number of drivers that we need. 100,000 is the size of a small city'

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1442045828214886400

    “We exited the EU. One consequence was going to be a shortage of HGV drivers. That was predictable”, says Starmer, who partly blames Brexit for the skills shortages. #Marr
    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1442045926806200320

    So Starmer backs lazy git CEOs who scrimped on training and paying their work forces for years while inflating their own pay and bonuses by using cheap labor.
    Going for the old Tory vote?
    There's still this charming 1970s view that rich people are Tories. In the current environment a millionaire is just as likely to be a lefty corporatists as a tory fatcat. Its simply a measure that the old labels of left and right are fraying wildly at the edges.
    Seeing as most millionaires are pensioners and pensioners break overwhelmingly Tory, that seems very unlikely. By income, yes the rich are split politically, but not so much the rich by assets.
  • However bad this Starmer interview is - and it IS bad - think how bad it will be with Beaker next week.

    He can't just keep saying "Kermit the Frog".

    I would just say that I think Starmer is decent and honest but he is a lawyer, not a politician
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    Mr. Sandpit, working on a Sunday? Alas.

    Don't they have Sundays on Fridays out there?
    Yes. Their God expects you to tell him or her how wonderful s/he is on Friday, while ours mostly listens on Sunday.

    You can see how somebody from Mars might be confused. Or maybe the Martian God is a Tuesday person.
    To be fair, he’s the same God so he’s just balancing his workload
    What makes you think it is the same God? Clearly one or other tradition has got major aspects wrong.
    Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe in the same God of Abraham.

    Muslims and Christians also share Christ as a prophet, though while Christ is the main prophet for Christians, Muhammed is the main prophet for Muslims. Jews and Christians share the Old Testament but not the new as Christ is not a prophet for Jews, that is where the main differences lie
    Christians don’t believe Jesus is a prophet
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs

    European Road Hauliers Association says temporary visa scheme won't tempt many EU drivers to the UK because pay and conditions are better in the EU, in part thanks to new EU rules, while Brexit red tape at customs is a big disencentive to driving to the UK.
    Rather bursts the bubble of those claiming we had to leave the EU to create a workers' paradise. Brexit = more red tape at the border + deregulation internally = fewer right for workers. It's a massive con perpetrated against the British working class by the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world.

    The truckers are all getting pay rises, I’m not sure they’re complaining too much.

    The ERHA are also confusing cross-border freight traffic into the UK, with UK-based hauliers looking to recruit drivers from abroad.
    If being in the EU undercut UK pay and conditions, how come pay and conditions are better in the EU than here? If the EU damages workers' rights, how come EU rules are more generous to workers than ours are?
    AIUI the UK driver shortage affects both cross border and purely internal routes (and there is a lot of overlap between the two, one of the great benefits of the Single Market being that it gets rid of these artificial distinctions created by borders).
    AIUI, France and Germany pay more for drivers than the UK does - because under the EU rules, more Eastern European workers found it prefereble to work in the UK so supply of labour was higher. Now there’s no longer FoM, and no new drivers coming over, the supply of labour is more restricted and the price is going up - heading towards the same price as we see in France and Germany.
    But wages are higher across the board in Germany ( and many other European countries besides ). it can't be be isolated to a short-term process in one sector.

    The UK chose to gut its trade union movement, so making it much harder for employees to work together to secure good wages. There are any number of people on this board and beyond proclaiming the need for better salaries across multiple sectors who have spent years routinely denouncing each and every strike ever called designed to secure higher pay and improved conditions.

    The strikes were political for the most part. Economic disputes get resolved fairly quickly

    Yes, strong trade unions deliver results for their members.

    And that’s exactly the problem. Like any interest group they care about their members to the exclusion of others
    Are Tories in favour of stronger negotiating positions for workers or not? Trade Unions are specifically for that purpose.
    yes.

    but for that to happen TUs need to have no party affiliation
    As long as companies do not either...
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,969

    However bad this Starmer interview is - and it IS bad - think how bad it will be with Beaker next week.

    He can't just keep saying "Kermit the Frog".

    I would just say that I think Starmer is decent and honest but he is a lawyer, not a politician
    And that's a bad thing?
  • eekeek Posts: 19,222

    DavidL said:

    Marr

    Starmer to bring in 100,000 foreign drivers to resolve the issue

    Presumably he is just going to wish them into existence?
    Think about it. We aren't going to find 100k foreign truck drivers. But if the government offers sufficient visas and people don't come, its the fault of the industry. If the government refuse to issue sufficient visas, its the fault of the government.
    I suspect we are going to discover that people won’t see the 5000 limit and that even that limit is not going to be filled.

    Charlie reckons there will be 5000 drivers willing to work in the uk, I suspect most people looking will have already found work on Germany or even France

    There is a bbc news article where a Welsh firm points out that at €1.40 to the £, the uk was a great place to work, at €1.15 it’s not so great
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,940

    However bad this Starmer interview is - and it IS bad - think how bad it will be with Beaker next week.

    He can't just keep saying "Kermit the Frog".

    But he could answer every question with "Labour jabber, Conservatives jab" and we would be reminded of his greatness as we listen to the transistor radio by candlelight.
  • pingping Posts: 2,204
    Better from Starmer.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,374

    Scott_xP said:

    Crisis? What crisis?

    Transport Secretary Grant Shapps
    says at least the petrol crisis isnt as bad as the toilet roll crisis.

    "At some point everyone's cars will be filled up. It is not like the toilet roll crisis. It will come to an end."

    #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442035769044967424

    Brilliant, Grant; do tanks stay full? Why not:

    "At some point, everyone's bottom will be clean. It is not like the petrol shortage crisis. It will come to an end".
    It is easier to clean one's bottom by an alternative means (bidet, for instance) than to make an ICE car run on leccy, or diesel, or whatever it doesn't normally drink.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,374

    However bad this Starmer interview is - and it IS bad - think how bad it will be with Beaker next week.

    He can't just keep saying "Kermit the Frog".

    But he could answer every question with "Labour jabber, Conservatives jab" and we would be reminded of his greatness as we listen to the transistor radio by candlelight.
    Not transistor. Accumulator radio in a walnut cabinet; the audience holding their hands up to the heat of the valves.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Farooq said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Given that there are plentiful supplies of fuel, when do we expect the panic buying to end? I am hoping that once the idiots have all filled up, the rest of us will be able to.

    Would be nice if this was soon. Didn’t join the crazy, crazy so now having to ration trips, which means explaining to teenagers why I might not be able to take the to their sport clubs. Not a huge amount of fun.

    All the petrol stations with 10 miles are cleaned out.

    Yep, here too.

    Mrs RP sent a photo yesterday from her vantage point in "Annie's Cakery" of a full forecourt and queue down the road at the little Gleaner station in Macduff. OK so we're all reliant on cars up here, but the transition from no real flap on Friday to all the big filling stations emptied by Saturday lunchtime was bonkers.

    I wryly suggested she get down there and ask if they have a 3 pin you can plug your car into so you don't miss out.
    This feels a bit different to previous panics. Not seen such a complete clean out before. I hope it get sorted out in the next 48hrs, but would not be surprised if it wasn’t.
    Panics always die down. The point I made on a local PB group was that there was no shortage up here. No problem with deliveries. Until people saw the panic 600 miles away and said "oh no!!!!" and went to fill up.
    OGH has set up local groups for PBers?
    Well... yes. To be allowed to post here you have to have been elected as a delegate from your local group.
    Clearly you have not, so I'll have a word with the admins and get you removed, shouldn't take a moment.
    Unless you have a permanent seat in the upper house of PB
  • Scott_xP said:

    New Observer / Opinium poll

    Voters, including Leave voters, blame Brexit for the current HGV crisis.

    68% think Brexit is completely / partly to blame.
    24% think it is not really / not to blame


    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1442048881165017091/photo/1

    I have said that brexit is partly to blame many times, but it is far more complex than trying to use brexit as the sole reason and using it for a political agenda
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 40,021
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And if you’re one of the many Tory MPs, “disgusted” and “outraged” by Angela Rayner’s comments, but not overly bothered by Boris Johnson’s compete and overt racism, then you don’t have a leg to stand on.
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1442039794654121989

    It's a fair point.
    I don't think it's clever politics from Rayner, it's a bit rash. But I still prefer rash and right over calculated and wrong.
    Not really, because Johnson's racism is half arsed and plausibly deniable.
    I don’t think Johnson is racist. I think he can’t avoid a cheap joke - whether it’s about colour, sex, weight, height, religion, whatever. Sometimes people will take offence and claim it demonstrates a specific set of beliefs
    I think you are right. He doesn't believe in anything.
    The biggest hit on the popularity of the German CDU guy seems to have been his being caught in the background of a TV report laughing and joking about something when he was visiting the scene of a flooded-out town in the NW
  • Farooq said:

    However bad this Starmer interview is - and it IS bad - think how bad it will be with Beaker next week.

    He can't just keep saying "Kermit the Frog".

    I would just say that I think Starmer is decent and honest but he is a lawyer, not a politician
    And that's a bad thing?
    It is if you want to be PM
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,030
    On the PM being “a showman”, Starmer says “it is priced in, apparently, that he is dishonest” and that people should stop and ask themselves why that is accepted. “I believe in truth,” the Labour leader says
    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1442050806962819072
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,347
    Charles said:

    Farooq said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Given that there are plentiful supplies of fuel, when do we expect the panic buying to end? I am hoping that once the idiots have all filled up, the rest of us will be able to.

    Would be nice if this was soon. Didn’t join the crazy, crazy so now having to ration trips, which means explaining to teenagers why I might not be able to take the to their sport clubs. Not a huge amount of fun.

    All the petrol stations with 10 miles are cleaned out.

    Yep, here too.

    Mrs RP sent a photo yesterday from her vantage point in "Annie's Cakery" of a full forecourt and queue down the road at the little Gleaner station in Macduff. OK so we're all reliant on cars up here, but the transition from no real flap on Friday to all the big filling stations emptied by Saturday lunchtime was bonkers.

    I wryly suggested she get down there and ask if they have a 3 pin you can plug your car into so you don't miss out.
    This feels a bit different to previous panics. Not seen such a complete clean out before. I hope it get sorted out in the next 48hrs, but would not be surprised if it wasn’t.
    Panics always die down. The point I made on a local PB group was that there was no shortage up here. No problem with deliveries. Until people saw the panic 600 miles away and said "oh no!!!!" and went to fill up.
    OGH has set up local groups for PBers?
    Well... yes. To be allowed to post here you have to have been elected as a delegate from your local group.
    Clearly you have not, so I'll have a word with the admins and get you removed, shouldn't take a moment.
    Unless you have a permanent seat in the upper house of PB
    Nah, all about donations :)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs

    European Road Hauliers Association says temporary visa scheme won't tempt many EU drivers to the UK because pay and conditions are better in the EU, in part thanks to new EU rules, while Brexit red tape at customs is a big disencentive to driving to the UK.
    Rather bursts the bubble of those claiming we had to leave the EU to create a workers' paradise. Brexit = more red tape at the border + deregulation internally = fewer right for workers. It's a massive con perpetrated against the British working class by the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world.

    The truckers are all getting pay rises, I’m not sure they’re complaining too much.

    The ERHA are also confusing cross-border freight traffic into the UK, with UK-based hauliers looking to recruit drivers from abroad.
    If being in the EU undercut UK pay and conditions, how come pay and conditions are better in the EU than here? If the EU damages workers' rights, how come EU rules are more generous to workers than ours are?
    AIUI the UK driver shortage affects both cross border and purely internal routes (and there is a lot of overlap between the two, one of the great benefits of the Single Market being that it gets rid of these artificial distinctions created by borders).
    AIUI, France and Germany pay more for drivers than the UK does - because under the EU rules, more Eastern European workers found it prefereble to work in the UK so supply of labour was higher. Now there’s no longer FoM, and no new drivers coming over, the supply of labour is more restricted and the price is going up - heading towards the same price as we see in France and Germany.
    But wages are higher across the board in Germany ( and many other European countries besides ). it can't be be isolated to a short-term process in one sector.

    The UK chose to gut its trade union movement, so making it much harder for employees to work together to secure good wages. There are any number of people on this board and beyond proclaiming the need for better salaries across multiple sectors who have spent years routinely denouncing each and every strike ever called designed to secure higher pay and improved conditions.

    The strikes were political for the most part. Economic disputes get resolved fairly quickly

    Yes, strong trade unions deliver results for their members.

    And that’s exactly the problem. Like any interest group they care about their members to the exclusion of others
    Are Tories in favour of stronger negotiating positions for workers or not? Trade Unions are specifically for that purpose.
    I would say that Trade Unions *as they developed in the UK* were overtly political and therefore unhelpful.

    There is absolutely a role for constructive representation of workers in negotiations with management, support for employees etc
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,645

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Breaking:

    Keir Starmer calls for 100,000 foreign drivers to be given visas to fill vacancies

    'We're going to have to do that. We have to issue enough visas to cover the number of drivers that we need. 100,000 is the size of a small city'

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1442045828214886400

    “We exited the EU. One consequence was going to be a shortage of HGV drivers. That was predictable”, says Starmer, who partly blames Brexit for the skills shortages. #Marr
    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1442045926806200320

    So Starmer backs lazy git CEOs who scrimped on training and paying their work forces for years while inflating their own pay and bonuses by using cheap labor.
    Going for the old Tory vote?
    There's still this charming 1970s view that rich people are Tories. In the current environment a millionaire is just as likely to be a lefty corporatists as a tory fatcat. Its simply a measure that the old labels of left and right are fraying wildly at the edges.
    Seeing as most millionaires are pensioners and pensioners break overwhelmingly Tory, that seems very unlikely. By income, yes the rich are split politically, but not so much the rich by assets.
    In 2019 42% of ABs voted Conservative, Left leaners (LAb, Lib, SNP ) got 52%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election
  • eekeek Posts: 19,222

    However bad this Starmer interview is - and it IS bad - think how bad it will be with Beaker next week.

    He can't just keep saying "Kermit the Frog".

    Boris simply won’t turn up and send someone in his place
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,645
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs

    European Road Hauliers Association says temporary visa scheme won't tempt many EU drivers to the UK because pay and conditions are better in the EU, in part thanks to new EU rules, while Brexit red tape at customs is a big disencentive to driving to the UK.
    Rather bursts the bubble of those claiming we had to leave the EU to create a workers' paradise. Brexit = more red tape at the border + deregulation internally = fewer right for workers. It's a massive con perpetrated against the British working class by the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world.

    The truckers are all getting pay rises, I’m not sure they’re complaining too much.

    The ERHA are also confusing cross-border freight traffic into the UK, with UK-based hauliers looking to recruit drivers from abroad.
    If being in the EU undercut UK pay and conditions, how come pay and conditions are better in the EU than here? If the EU damages workers' rights, how come EU rules are more generous to workers than ours are?
    AIUI the UK driver shortage affects both cross border and purely internal routes (and there is a lot of overlap between the two, one of the great benefits of the Single Market being that it gets rid of these artificial distinctions created by borders).
    AIUI, France and Germany pay more for drivers than the UK does - because under the EU rules, more Eastern European workers found it prefereble to work in the UK so supply of labour was higher. Now there’s no longer FoM, and no new drivers coming over, the supply of labour is more restricted and the price is going up - heading towards the same price as we see in France and Germany.
    But wages are higher across the board in Germany ( and many other European countries besides ). it can't be be isolated to a short-term process in one sector.

    The UK chose to gut its trade union movement, so making it much harder for employees to work together to secure good wages. There are any number of people on this board and beyond proclaiming the need for better salaries across multiple sectors who have spent years routinely denouncing each and every strike ever called designed to secure higher pay and improved conditions.

    The strikes were political for the most part. Economic disputes get resolved fairly quickly

    Yes, strong trade unions deliver results for their members.

    And that’s exactly the problem. Like any interest group they care about their members to the exclusion of others
    Are Tories in favour of stronger negotiating positions for workers or not? Trade Unions are specifically for that purpose.
    yes.

    but for that to happen TUs need to have no party affiliation
    As long as companies do not either...
    Absolutey
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,374
    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Asked if there will be no turkeys this Christmas because of the driver shortage, Grant Shapps says

    "That is not true" #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442034094725083136

    Grant Shapps is right. The turkey shortage will be due to a lack of staff (Brexit) and carbon dioxide, not drivers.
    I think it is baked (roasted?) In already, as British farmers have hatched 20% fewer turkey chicks already.
    What have you baste those figures on?


    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/poultry-and-poultry-meat-statistics/monthly-statistics-on-the-activity-of-uk-hatcheries-and-uk-poultry-slaughterhouses-data-for-january-2021
    No complaints about being given the facts -- thank you -- but I was mostly using your post as a foil to make a pun.
    But interesting nonetheless..
    Interesting that the 2020 figures were down, though no anticipation in August 2020 that Christmas would be cancelled by Johnson.

    In our household we are not particularly turkey fans, and often have a large chicken, roast beef or pork.
    Just so long as you have something to gobble.
  • pingping Posts: 2,204
    Scott_xP said:

    On the PM being “a showman”, Starmer says “it is priced in, apparently, that he is dishonest” and that people should stop and ask themselves why that is accepted. “I believe in truth,” the Labour leader says
    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1442050806962819072

    I thought that bit was very good from Starmer. The rest of the interview was a mixture of meh and bad (100,000 foreign drivers? That was a trap he fell into).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,783
    Scott_xP said:

    On the PM being “a showman”, Starmer says “it is priced in, apparently, that he is dishonest” and that people should stop and ask themselves why that is accepted. “I believe in truth,” the Labour leader says
    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1442050806962819072

    Well up to a point. The truth is SKS is crap but that is one truth he is not willing to address.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Farooq said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs

    European Road Hauliers Association says temporary visa scheme won't tempt many EU drivers to the UK because pay and conditions are better in the EU, in part thanks to new EU rules, while Brexit red tape at customs is a big disencentive to driving to the UK.
    Rather bursts the bubble of those claiming we had to leave the EU to create a workers' paradise. Brexit = more red tape at the border + deregulation internally = fewer right for workers. It's a massive con perpetrated against the British working class by the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world.

    The truckers are all getting pay rises, I’m not sure they’re complaining too much.

    The ERHA are also confusing cross-border freight traffic into the UK, with UK-based hauliers looking to recruit drivers from abroad.
    If being in the EU undercut UK pay and conditions, how come pay and conditions are better in the EU than here? If the EU damages workers' rights, how come EU rules are more generous to workers than ours are?
    AIUI the UK driver shortage affects both cross border and purely internal routes (and there is a lot of overlap between the two, one of the great benefits of the Single Market being that it gets rid of these artificial distinctions created by borders).
    AIUI, France and Germany pay more for drivers than the UK does - because under the EU rules, more Eastern European workers found it prefereble to work in the UK so supply of labour was higher. Now there’s no longer FoM, and no new drivers coming over, the supply of labour is more restricted and the price is going up - heading towards the same price as we see in France and Germany.
    But wages are higher across the board in Germany ( and many other European countries besides ). it can't be be isolated to a short-term process in one sector.

    The UK chose to gut its trade union movement, so making it much harder for employees to work together to secure good wages. There are any number of people on this board and beyond proclaiming the need for better salaries across multiple sectors who have spent years routinely denouncing each and every strike ever called designed to secure higher pay and improved conditions.

    The strikes were political for the most part. Economic disputes get resolved fairly quickly

    Yes, strong trade unions deliver results for their members.

    And that’s exactly the problem. Like any interest group they care about their members to the exclusion of others
    All of politics is about interest groups. A trade union isn't any different.
    Sure - but the interests of the nation as a whole are different. Eg unions prefer higher wages to more jobs.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Farooq said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs

    European Road Hauliers Association says temporary visa scheme won't tempt many EU drivers to the UK because pay and conditions are better in the EU, in part thanks to new EU rules, while Brexit red tape at customs is a big disencentive to driving to the UK.
    Rather bursts the bubble of those claiming we had to leave the EU to create a workers' paradise. Brexit = more red tape at the border + deregulation internally = fewer right for workers. It's a massive con perpetrated against the British working class by the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world.

    The truckers are all getting pay rises, I’m not sure they’re complaining too much.

    The ERHA are also confusing cross-border freight traffic into the UK, with UK-based hauliers looking to recruit drivers from abroad.
    If being in the EU undercut UK pay and conditions, how come pay and conditions are better in the EU than here? If the EU damages workers' rights, how come EU rules are more generous to workers than ours are?
    AIUI the UK driver shortage affects both cross border and purely internal routes (and there is a lot of overlap between the two, one of the great benefits of the Single Market being that it gets rid of these artificial distinctions created by borders).
    AIUI, France and Germany pay more for drivers than the UK does - because under the EU rules, more Eastern European workers found it prefereble to work in the UK so supply of labour was higher. Now there’s no longer FoM, and no new drivers coming over, the supply of labour is more restricted and the price is going up - heading towards the same price as we see in France and Germany.
    But wages are higher across the board in Germany ( and many other European countries besides ). it can't be be isolated to a short-term process in one sector.

    The UK chose to gut its trade union movement, so making it much harder for employees to work together to secure good wages. There are any number of people on this board and beyond proclaiming the need for better salaries across multiple sectors who have spent years routinely denouncing each and every strike ever called designed to secure higher pay and improved conditions.

    The strikes were political for the most part. Economic disputes get resolved fairly quickly

    Yes, strong trade unions deliver results for their members.

    And that’s exactly the problem. Like any interest group they care about their members to the exclusion of others
    All of politics is about interest groups. A trade union isn't any different.
    Sure - but the interests of the nation as a whole are different. Eg unions prefer higher wages to more jobs.
  • Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Breaking:

    Keir Starmer calls for 100,000 foreign drivers to be given visas to fill vacancies

    'We're going to have to do that. We have to issue enough visas to cover the number of drivers that we need. 100,000 is the size of a small city'

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1442045828214886400

    “We exited the EU. One consequence was going to be a shortage of HGV drivers. That was predictable”, says Starmer, who partly blames Brexit for the skills shortages. #Marr
    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1442045926806200320

    So Starmer backs lazy git CEOs who scrimped on training and paying their work forces for years while inflating their own pay and bonuses by using cheap labor.
    Going for the old Tory vote?
    There's still this charming 1970s view that rich people are Tories. In the current environment a millionaire is just as likely to be a lefty corporatists as a tory fatcat. Its simply a measure that the old labels of left and right are fraying wildly at the edges.
    Seeing as most millionaires are pensioners and pensioners break overwhelmingly Tory, that seems very unlikely. By income, yes the rich are split politically, but not so much the rich by assets.
    In 2019 42% of ABs voted Conservative, Left leaners (LAb, Lib, SNP ) got 52%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election
    That does not judge wealth. The old are much wealthier than the young, even within the same social class.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,011
    Starmer’s pitch does seem to be “oh, isn’t Boris Johnson terrible? I’d be a much better PM.”
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,374
    Charles said:

    Farooq said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs

    European Road Hauliers Association says temporary visa scheme won't tempt many EU drivers to the UK because pay and conditions are better in the EU, in part thanks to new EU rules, while Brexit red tape at customs is a big disencentive to driving to the UK.
    Rather bursts the bubble of those claiming we had to leave the EU to create a workers' paradise. Brexit = more red tape at the border + deregulation internally = fewer right for workers. It's a massive con perpetrated against the British working class by the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world.

    The truckers are all getting pay rises, I’m not sure they’re complaining too much.

    The ERHA are also confusing cross-border freight traffic into the UK, with UK-based hauliers looking to recruit drivers from abroad.
    If being in the EU undercut UK pay and conditions, how come pay and conditions are better in the EU than here? If the EU damages workers' rights, how come EU rules are more generous to workers than ours are?
    AIUI the UK driver shortage affects both cross border and purely internal routes (and there is a lot of overlap between the two, one of the great benefits of the Single Market being that it gets rid of these artificial distinctions created by borders).
    AIUI, France and Germany pay more for drivers than the UK does - because under the EU rules, more Eastern European workers found it prefereble to work in the UK so supply of labour was higher. Now there’s no longer FoM, and no new drivers coming over, the supply of labour is more restricted and the price is going up - heading towards the same price as we see in France and Germany.
    But wages are higher across the board in Germany ( and many other European countries besides ). it can't be be isolated to a short-term process in one sector.

    The UK chose to gut its trade union movement, so making it much harder for employees to work together to secure good wages. There are any number of people on this board and beyond proclaiming the need for better salaries across multiple sectors who have spent years routinely denouncing each and every strike ever called designed to secure higher pay and improved conditions.

    The strikes were political for the most part. Economic disputes get resolved fairly quickly

    Yes, strong trade unions deliver results for their members.

    And that’s exactly the problem. Like any interest group they care about their members to the exclusion of others
    All of politics is about interest groups. A trade union isn't any different.
    Sure - but the interests of the nation as a whole are different. Eg unions prefer higher wages to more jobs.
    But the upper classes also prefer higher profits to more jobs, do they not?
  • Scott_xP said:

    Crisis? What crisis?

    Transport Secretary Grant Shapps
    says at least the petrol crisis isnt as bad as the toilet roll crisis.

    "At some point everyone's cars will be filled up. It is not like the toilet roll crisis. It will come to an end."

    #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442035769044967424

    Brilliant, Grant; do tanks stay full? Why not:

    "At some point, everyone's bottom will be clean. It is not like the petrol shortage crisis. It will come to an end".
    There will be no empty tanks in Balham




  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs

    European Road Hauliers Association says temporary visa scheme won't tempt many EU drivers to the UK because pay and conditions are better in the EU, in part thanks to new EU rules, while Brexit red tape at customs is a big disencentive to driving to the UK.
    Rather bursts the bubble of those claiming we had to leave the EU to create a workers' paradise. Brexit = more red tape at the border + deregulation internally = fewer right for workers. It's a massive con perpetrated against the British working class by the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world.

    The truckers are all getting pay rises, I’m not sure they’re complaining too much.

    The ERHA are also confusing cross-border freight traffic into the UK, with UK-based hauliers looking to recruit drivers from abroad.
    If being in the EU undercut UK pay and conditions, how come pay and conditions are better in the EU than here? If the EU damages workers' rights, how come EU rules are more generous to workers than ours are?
    AIUI the UK driver shortage affects both cross border and purely internal routes (and there is a lot of overlap between the two, one of the great benefits of the Single Market being that it gets rid of these artificial distinctions created by borders).
    AIUI, France and Germany pay more for drivers than the UK does - because under the EU rules, more Eastern European workers found it prefereble to work in the UK so supply of labour was higher. Now there’s no longer FoM, and no new drivers coming over, the supply of labour is more restricted and the price is going up - heading towards the same price as we see in France and Germany.
    But wages are higher across the board in Germany ( and many other European countries besides ). it can't be be isolated to a short-term process in one sector.

    The UK chose to gut its trade union movement, so making it much harder for employees to work together to secure good wages. There are any number of people on this board and beyond proclaiming the need for better salaries across multiple sectors who have spent years routinely denouncing each and every strike ever called designed to secure higher pay and improved conditions.

    The strikes were political for the most part. Economic disputes get resolved fairly quickly

    Yes, strong trade unions deliver results for their members.

    And that’s exactly the problem. Like any interest group they care about their members to the exclusion of others
    Just like the British upper class, then.
    There isn’t really a unified “upper class” anymore. But they have a general interest in social stability and tend to be a lot more moderate than the kleptocrats that have run the Tory party for the last 15 years
  • Understandable outrage over Angela Rayner’s comments- but remember, she’s not playing to any other audience at the moment than the one that she wants to vote for her instead of Andy Burnham in a future leadership race

    https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1442023840318590979?s=20
  • ping said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the PM being “a showman”, Starmer says “it is priced in, apparently, that he is dishonest” and that people should stop and ask themselves why that is accepted. “I believe in truth,” the Labour leader says
    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1442050806962819072

    I thought that bit was very good from Starmer. The rest of the interview was a mixture of meh and bad (100,000 foreign drivers? That was a trap he fell into).
    And of course it opened Marr to asking him how many agricultural workers, hospitality and other workers he would also bring in and effectively he was arguing for free movement of labour
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And if you’re one of the many Tory MPs, “disgusted” and “outraged” by Angela Rayner’s comments, but not overly bothered by Boris Johnson’s compete and overt racism, then you don’t have a leg to stand on.
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1442039794654121989

    It's a fair point.
    I don't think it's clever politics from Rayner, it's a bit rash. But I still prefer rash and right over calculated and wrong.
    Not really, because Johnson's racism is half arsed and plausibly deniable.
    I don’t think Johnson is racist. I think he can’t avoid a cheap joke - whether it’s about colour, sex, weight, height, religion, whatever. Sometimes people will take offence and claim it demonstrates a specific set of beliefs
    I think you are right. He doesn't believe in anything.
    Nah. You are completely and utterly and absolutely WRONG!

    He believes in his own advantage.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,099
    JohnO said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    isam said:

    Not having Rayner as a potential leader one bit. First time I’ve heard her speak and comes across terribly to me

    https://twitter.com/ridgeonsunday/status/1442034501656346630?s=21

    This is the new politics. All the old standards on probity and conduct in public life have been dismembered and interred. Largely by Johnson.

    Anyway, she's right; they are scum.
    Yeah, I think she put up a good defence there.
    My default setting is friendly, so in theory I don't approve - I know and like people who have voted right across the spectrum, and I'll engage any opinion from fascism to flat earthism in a spirit of puzzled enquiry. But there are people who politicians like me can't reach in today's febrile, embittered climate, improverished, desperate and routinely victimised. Someone needs to speak up for them too in less than polite terms, so they feel that somebody is actually outraged on their behalf. It's a pity that it's necessary.
    As I posted a couple of days ago, you have certainly won plaudits from the Tories on Waverley Council for the way you conduct yourself.
    I didn't see that - it's nice to hear, thank you. I teased them the other day about their far-left tendencies when they opposed parking discounts for electric cars because they might benefit the rich, but I think they took that with a giggle.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,859
    edited September 2021

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Breaking:

    Keir Starmer calls for 100,000 foreign drivers to be given visas to fill vacancies

    'We're going to have to do that. We have to issue enough visas to cover the number of drivers that we need. 100,000 is the size of a small city'

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1442045828214886400

    “We exited the EU. One consequence was going to be a shortage of HGV drivers. That was predictable”, says Starmer, who partly blames Brexit for the skills shortages. #Marr
    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1442045926806200320

    So Starmer backs lazy git CEOs who scrimped on training and paying their work forces for years while inflating their own pay and bonuses by using cheap labor.
    Going for the old Tory vote?
    There's still this charming 1970s view that rich people are Tories. In the current environment a millionaire is just as likely to be a lefty corporatists as a tory fatcat. Its simply a measure that the old labels of left and right are fraying wildly at the edges.
    Seeing as most millionaires are pensioners and pensioners break overwhelmingly Tory, that seems very unlikely. By income, yes the rich are split politically, but not so much the rich by assets.
    In 2019 42% of ABs voted Conservative, Left leaners (LAb, Lib, SNP ) got 52%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election
    The Tories still narrowly won ABs, 42% to 32% for Labour and 16% for the LDs and the Tories won those earning over £70,000 a year with 40% to 31% for Labour and 20% for the LDs however yes it was home ownership which was the bigger divide not income and social grade. The Tories won 57% of home owners for example and 43% of those with a mortgage

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election#cite_note-364
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs

    European Road Hauliers Association says temporary visa scheme won't tempt many EU drivers to the UK because pay and conditions are better in the EU, in part thanks to new EU rules, while Brexit red tape at customs is a big disencentive to driving to the UK.
    Rather bursts the bubble of those claiming we had to leave the EU to create a workers' paradise. Brexit = more red tape at the border + deregulation internally = fewer right for workers. It's a massive con perpetrated against the British working class by the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world.

    The truckers are all getting pay rises, I’m not sure they’re complaining too much.

    The ERHA are also confusing cross-border freight traffic into the UK, with UK-based hauliers looking to recruit drivers from abroad.
    If being in the EU undercut UK pay and conditions, how come pay and conditions are better in the EU than here? If the EU damages workers' rights, how come EU rules are more generous to workers than ours are?
    AIUI the UK driver shortage affects both cross border and purely internal routes (and there is a lot of overlap between the two, one of the great benefits of the Single Market being that it gets rid of these artificial distinctions created by borders).
    AIUI, France and Germany pay more for drivers than the UK does - because under the EU rules, more Eastern European workers found it prefereble to work in the UK so supply of labour was higher. Now there’s no longer FoM, and no new drivers coming over, the supply of labour is more restricted and the price is going up - heading towards the same price as we see in France and Germany.
    But wages are higher across the board in Germany ( and many other European countries besides ). it can't be be isolated to a short-term process in one sector.

    The UK chose to gut its trade union movement, so making it much harder for employees to work together to secure good wages. There are any number of people on this board and beyond proclaiming the need for better salaries across multiple sectors who have spent years routinely denouncing each and every strike ever called designed to secure higher pay and improved conditions.

    The strikes were political for the most part. Economic disputes get resolved fairly quickly

    Yes, strong trade unions deliver results for their members.

    And that’s exactly the problem. Like any interest group they care about their members to the exclusion of others
    Are Tories in favour of stronger negotiating positions for workers or not? Trade Unions are specifically for that purpose.
    yes.

    but for that to happen TUs need to have no party affiliation
    As long as companies do not either...
    Most don’t (at least public companies)
This discussion has been closed.