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LAB to get a poll lead before Oct 12th – new betting market – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • I guess that people queuing at the petrol station can spend the time productivity by responding to an opinion poll to say how much they support the government and that man of the people Bozo.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276
    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    Mr. Sandpit, working on a Sunday? Alas.

    Don't they have Sundays on Fridays out there?
    Yes. Their God expects you to tell him or her how wonderful s/he is on Friday, while ours mostly listens on Sunday.

    You can see how somebody from Mars might be confused. Or maybe the Martian God is a Tuesday person.
    To be fair, he’s the same God so he’s just balancing his workload
    What makes you think it is the same God? Clearly one or other tradition has got major aspects wrong.
  • Pulpstar said:

    The highlights of the Ryder cup seem to feature loads of Americans and John Rahm

    Delivery problems with the Brits?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 40,021
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    Mr. Sandpit, working on a Sunday? Alas.

    Don't they have Sundays on Fridays out there?
    Yes. Their God expects you to tell him or her how wonderful s/he is on Friday, while ours mostly listens on Sunday.

    You can see how somebody from Mars might be confused. Or maybe the Martian God is a Tuesday person.
    To be fair, he’s the same God so he’s just balancing his workload
    What makes you think it is the same God? Clearly one or other or both traditions has got major aspects wrong.
    Corrected for you :)
  • Foxy said:

    Three month visas, what a joke. “ Hi Johnny Foreigner, please come and deliver our stuff for three months so Christmas will go smoothly. Then bugger off so we can enjoy it without you”

    3 months isn't the problem - people travel home for Christmas anyway. Its the restricted numbers which are the problem - nowhere near enough.
    As a matter of interest, are foreign HGV licenses from Europe still recognised for people resident here? Or only while visiting from abroad on a temporary basis?
    Good question - don't know. Suspect that 3 months only means they are not classed as "resident" here.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,030

    By relaxing the visa regime the government will have raised expectations that supply problems will now be resolved. By relaxing the visa regime in the way it has the government has almost certainly ensured that supply problems will not be resolved. There will either have to be further u-turns or this is going to be a long-term problem in multiple sectors.

    “Please come back and save Christmas even though we just finished telling you to fuck off.”

    “Ok, and do we get to stay and enjoy the festivities?”

    “Absolutely fucking not. Be gone by midnight on Christmas Eve or else.”
    https://twitter.com/bbcbreaking/status/1441877863498719237
  • Foxy said:

    Three month visas, what a joke. “ Hi Johnny Foreigner, please come and deliver our stuff for three months so Christmas will go smoothly. Then bugger off so we can enjoy it without you”

    3 months isn't the problem - people travel home for Christmas anyway. Its the restricted numbers which are the problem - nowhere near enough.
    As a matter of interest, are foreign HGV licenses from Europe still recognised for people resident here? Or only while visiting from abroad on a temporary basis?
    Good question - don't know. Suspect that 3 months only means they are not classed as "resident" here.
    No doubt such issues will be blamed on “EU red tape”
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 5,446
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fishing said:

    Mr. Sandpit, working on a Sunday? Alas.

    Don't they have Sundays on Fridays out there?
    Yes. Their God expects you to tell him or her how wonderful he is on Friday, while ours mostly listens on Sunday.

    You can see how somebody from Mars might be confused. Or maybe the Martian God is a Tuesday person.
    Ummm…it’s *the same* God.
    S/he needs to sort out the communication, then, since self-contradiction isn't a good look for the omnipotent.
    OTOH if religion has, say, 5 billion followers, it hardly seems likely that they are all going to agree about everything, if something as simple as the Labour party can't agree about anything. Maybe God, and SKS, communicate well but the problem is somewhere else?

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,011
    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    Three month visas, what a joke. “ Hi Johnny Foreigner, please come and deliver our stuff for three months so Christmas will go smoothly. Then bugger off so we can enjoy it without you”

    Do you think it's a joke because it won't work or because it's unfair? Isn't this what happens/happened with fruit pickers?
    It won’t work. Fruit picking is itinerary work we’re you move to where the crops are at that moment in time.

    Would you quit a lorry driving job for 3 months in the Uk and a risk of no job to return to when the UK kicks you out 3 months later.
    No, but then I don't think the government should be pandering to big business that are screaming (not sexist) about a lack of cheap labour.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 5,446
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    Mr. Sandpit, working on a Sunday? Alas.

    Don't they have Sundays on Fridays out there?
    Yes. Their God expects you to tell him or her how wonderful s/he is on Friday, while ours mostly listens on Sunday.

    You can see how somebody from Mars might be confused. Or maybe the Martian God is a Tuesday person.
    To be fair, he’s the same God so he’s just balancing his workload
    What makes you think it is the same God? Clearly one or other tradition has got major aspects wrong.
    Whether or not there is a God is unknown - it is an unknowable item. Whether people get everything about everything right all the time is a knowable item, admitting only one answer.

  • Three month visas, what a joke. “ Hi Johnny Foreigner, please come and deliver our stuff for three months so Christmas will go smoothly. Then bugger off so we can enjoy it without you”

    As the RSPCA would not say, foreign HGV drivers are just for Christmas, not for life.
  • Will they be sending Raducanu on a foreign recruiting drive in appropriately coloured tennis outfits?
    ‘Eddie Stobart needs YOU’
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,969
    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    Mr. Sandpit, working on a Sunday? Alas.

    Don't they have Sundays on Fridays out there?
    Yes. Their God expects you to tell him or her how wonderful s/he is on Friday, while ours mostly listens on Sunday.

    You can see how somebody from Mars might be confused. Or maybe the Martian God is a Tuesday person.
    To be fair, he’s the same God so he’s just balancing his workload
    What makes you think it is the same God? Clearly one or other tradition has got major aspects wrong.
    Whether or not there is a God is unknown - it is an unknowable item. Whether people get everything about everything right all the time is a knowable item, admitting only one answer.

    Whether or not there is a purple-green fairy at the bottom of the garden is unknown - it is an unknowable item.
  • tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    Three month visas, what a joke. “ Hi Johnny Foreigner, please come and deliver our stuff for three months so Christmas will go smoothly. Then bugger off so we can enjoy it without you”

    Do you think it's a joke because it won't work or because it's unfair? Isn't this what happens/happened with fruit pickers?
    It won’t work. Fruit picking is itinerary work we’re you move to where the crops are at that moment in time.

    Would you quit a lorry driving job for 3 months in the Uk and a risk of no job to return to when the UK kicks you out 3 months later.
    No, but then I don't think the government should be pandering to big business that are screaming (not sexist) about a lack of cheap labour.
    So you’re a trade unionist now?
  • Jonathan said:

    Boris Johnson does seem to cite Christmas frequently in his policy making.

    It does appear to be a clue that he still approaches the world through the eyes of a child.

    "Kermit the Frog"

    Silence, glances back at the script in case they didn't hear him.

    "Kermit the Frog"
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,030
    Transport Secretary Grant Shapps bevgs Brits not to panic buy petrol.

    “There is plenty of fuel, there is no shortage of fuel in the country.
    “If people carry on as normal and full up when they need to fill up we will not have shortages.”


    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442033458260283398
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 5,446
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Would be nice if the government actually thought about solving problems rather than creating headlines and defending their dogma against reality.

    When you have a Peronist government run by journalists, you're not going to get anything other than what we have.

    Never thought I’d say this, but I miss old skool pragmatic conservatism. They may have been in it for themselves, but at least they had some relationship with reality.

    This new Conservative party seems to marry all the old selfish bits with a fantasist, narcissist streak, where reality rarely gets a look in. Just get the headlines, defend the dogma and all is well.

    Pragmatic Toryism is alive and well. While bearing no special relation to the history of 'Tory' or 'Conservative' except keeping the name, it is in power in the UK, has been for 11 years and leads in almost every poll. At this moment no party is making a coherent and better offer to the public. When one did the Tories were out of power. When they do so again the pragmatic Tories will pragmatically respond.

  • Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    Mr. Sandpit, working on a Sunday? Alas.

    Don't they have Sundays on Fridays out there?
    Yes. Their God expects you to tell him or her how wonderful s/he is on Friday, while ours mostly listens on Sunday.

    You can see how somebody from Mars might be confused. Or maybe the Martian God is a Tuesday person.
    To be fair, he’s the same God so he’s just balancing his workload
    What makes you think it is the same God? Clearly one or other tradition has got major aspects wrong.
    That may be, but both religions explicitly believe they’re talking about the same God, the ‘God of Abraham’.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,893

    Jonathan said:

    Boris Johnson does seem to cite Christmas frequently in his policy making.

    It does appear to be a clue that he still approaches the world through the eyes of a child.

    "Kermit the Frog"

    Silence, glances back at the script in case they didn't hear him.

    "Kermit the Frog"
    Like so often when a politician speaks, it’s actually about themselves. Yes it’s time to grow up.
  • On a lighter note, here's my review of a videogame from 2009 or so:
    https://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.com/2021/09/retro-review-dragon-age-origins-ps3.html
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,011

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    Three month visas, what a joke. “ Hi Johnny Foreigner, please come and deliver our stuff for three months so Christmas will go smoothly. Then bugger off so we can enjoy it without you”

    Do you think it's a joke because it won't work or because it's unfair? Isn't this what happens/happened with fruit pickers?
    It won’t work. Fruit picking is itinerary work we’re you move to where the crops are at that moment in time.

    Would you quit a lorry driving job for 3 months in the Uk and a risk of no job to return to when the UK kicks you out 3 months later.
    No, but then I don't think the government should be pandering to big business that are screaming (not sexist) about a lack of cheap labour.
    So you’re a trade unionist now?
    I'm a pragmatist. I have always said that Brexit was (marginally) the left wing option.

    The people of this country like our welfare system including the NHS. That's why I voted to leave the EU. If remain had made the free market small state case for EU membership, I might have voted for it. But they didn't.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,030
    Asked if there will be no turkeys this Christmas because of the driver shortage, Grant Shapps says

    "That is not true" #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442034094725083136
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,946
    Northstar said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    Mr. Sandpit, working on a Sunday? Alas.

    Don't they have Sundays on Fridays out there?
    Yes. Their God expects you to tell him or her how wonderful s/he is on Friday, while ours mostly listens on Sunday.

    You can see how somebody from Mars might be confused. Or maybe the Martian God is a Tuesday person.
    To be fair, he’s the same God so he’s just balancing his workload
    What makes you think it is the same God? Clearly one or other tradition has got major aspects wrong.
    That may be, but both religions explicitly believe they’re talking about the same God, the ‘God of Abraham’.
    All four religions please, minimum.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,893
    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Would be nice if the government actually thought about solving problems rather than creating headlines and defending their dogma against reality.

    When you have a Peronist government run by journalists, you're not going to get anything other than what we have.

    Never thought I’d say this, but I miss old skool pragmatic conservatism. They may have been in it for themselves, but at least they had some relationship with reality.

    This new Conservative party seems to marry all the old selfish bits with a fantasist, narcissist streak, where reality rarely gets a look in. Just get the headlines, defend the dogma and all is well.

    Pragmatic Toryism is alive and well. While bearing no special relation to the history of 'Tory' or 'Conservative' except keeping the name, it is in power in the UK, has been for 11 years and leads in almost every poll. At this moment no party is making a coherent and better offer to the public. When one did the Tories were out of power. When they do so again the pragmatic Tories will pragmatically respond.

    Nah, the pragmatic Tories I know left after Boris. Reflected on who left on PB. We’re left with the populists, nationalists and social conservatives.
  • Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Would be nice if the government actually thought about solving problems rather than creating headlines and defending their dogma against reality.

    When you have a Peronist government run by journalists, you're not going to get anything other than what we have.

    Never thought I’d say this, but I miss old skool pragmatic conservatism. They may have been in it for themselves, but at least they had some relationship with reality.

    This new Conservative party seems to marry all the old selfish bits with a fantasist, narcissist streak, where reality rarely gets a look in. Just get the headlines, defend the dogma and all is well.

    Pragmatic Toryism is alive and well. While bearing no special relation to the history of 'Tory' or 'Conservative' except keeping the name, it is in power in the UK, has been for 11 years and leads in almost every poll. At this moment no party is making a coherent and better offer to the public. When one did the Tories were out of power. When they do so again the pragmatic Tories will pragmatically respond.

    Nah, the pragmatic Tories I know left after Boris. Reflected on who left on PB. We’re left with the populists, nationalists and social conservatives.
    Would a one word summary who is left be "morons"?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276
    Never mind the new Bond, the new Alan Partridge is out:

    Great be out & about in Haverhill yesterday, chat to people on the high street and see the brilliant new splash park funded by the Council. https://t.co/I2mE02N4FD

    https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1441801176991760396?s=19
  • By relaxing the visa regime the government will have raised expectations that supply problems will now be resolved. By relaxing the visa regime in the way it has the government has almost certainly ensured that supply problems will not be resolved. There will either have to be further u-turns or this is going to be a long-term problem in multiple sectors.

    No, no, no, you are quite wrong on this. It is not a question of either one or the other, we will have both further u-turns and this is going to be an ongoing long problem.
  • pingping Posts: 2,204
    edited September 2021
    I’m bracing myself for a month or so of sporadic petrol shortages. I think that is how this plays out, until everyone’s tank is full.

    It’s a media generated shitshow, but mostly harmless.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited September 2021
    Not having Rayner as a potential leader one bit. First time I’ve heard her speak and comes across terribly to me

    https://twitter.com/ridgeonsunday/status/1442034501656346630?s=21
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276
    IshmaelZ said:

    Northstar said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    Mr. Sandpit, working on a Sunday? Alas.

    Don't they have Sundays on Fridays out there?
    Yes. Their God expects you to tell him or her how wonderful s/he is on Friday, while ours mostly listens on Sunday.

    You can see how somebody from Mars might be confused. Or maybe the Martian God is a Tuesday person.
    To be fair, he’s the same God so he’s just balancing his workload
    What makes you think it is the same God? Clearly one or other tradition has got major aspects wrong.
    That may be, but both religions explicitly believe they’re talking about the same God, the ‘God of Abraham’.
    All four religions please, minimum.
    Sure, there are others too that have very varient ideas of what God wants it's followers to do, but we were talking specifically of the Holy days of Friday and Sunday.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,452
    Farooq said:

    Jonathan said:

    Boris Johnson does seem to cite Christmas frequently in his policy making.

    It does appear to be a clue that he still approaches the world through the eyes of a child.

    Boris has a Santa complex, that's what it is.
    Ask his children about the fat man who visits once a year.
    And the women about the man who empties his sack.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,030
    Crisis? What crisis?

    Transport Secretary Grant Shapps
    says at least the petrol crisis isnt as bad as the toilet roll crisis.

    "At some point everyone's cars will be filled up. It is not like the toilet roll crisis. It will come to an end."

    #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442035769044967424
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Northstar said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    Mr. Sandpit, working on a Sunday? Alas.

    Don't they have Sundays on Fridays out there?
    Yes. Their God expects you to tell him or her how wonderful s/he is on Friday, while ours mostly listens on Sunday.

    You can see how somebody from Mars might be confused. Or maybe the Martian God is a Tuesday person.
    To be fair, he’s the same God so he’s just balancing his workload
    What makes you think it is the same God? Clearly one or other tradition has got major aspects wrong.
    That may be, but both religions explicitly believe they’re talking about the same God, the ‘God of Abraham’.
    All four religions please, minimum.
    Five minimum given Judaism, if we’re going to be particular :-)
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,242
    edited September 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    Crisis? What crisis?

    Transport Secretary Grant Shapps
    says at least the petrol crisis isnt as bad as the toilet roll crisis.

    "At some point everyone's cars will be filled up. It is not like the toilet roll crisis. It will come to an end."

    #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442035769044967424

    Ah, but what if people are panic buying fuel so they can drive off to panic buy toilet roll?
  • Jonathan said:

    Would be nice if the government actually thought about solving problems rather than creating headlines and defending their dogma against reality.

    When you have a Peronist government run by journalists, you're not going to get anything other than what we have.

    Trouble is that the Person / Berlusconi playbook is an excellent way to stay popular for a long time.

    It's just a terrible way to run a prosperous country.

    As Argentina shows, it's the way to turn a prosperous country into an unprosperous one.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,893
    edited September 2021

    Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Would be nice if the government actually thought about solving problems rather than creating headlines and defending their dogma against reality.

    When you have a Peronist government run by journalists, you're not going to get anything other than what we have.

    Never thought I’d say this, but I miss old skool pragmatic conservatism. They may have been in it for themselves, but at least they had some relationship with reality.

    This new Conservative party seems to marry all the old selfish bits with a fantasist, narcissist streak, where reality rarely gets a look in. Just get the headlines, defend the dogma and all is well.

    Pragmatic Toryism is alive and well. While bearing no special relation to the history of 'Tory' or 'Conservative' except keeping the name, it is in power in the UK, has been for 11 years and leads in almost every poll. At this moment no party is making a coherent and better offer to the public. When one did the Tories were out of power. When they do so again the pragmatic Tories will pragmatically respond.

    Nah, the pragmatic Tories I know left after Boris. Reflected on who left on PB. We’re left with the populists, nationalists and social conservatives.
    Would a one word summary who is left be "morons"?
    Honestly, I don’t think they are morons.

    Some are very smart and good at what they do. No one can flog snake oil or wriggle out of accountability like Boris. It’s almost an art form. The trouble is that what they do doesn’t lead to good governance.

    The whole of the British state is currently directed towards getting good headlines and ultimately a great memoir deal.

    Utterly misguided and ill suited for the responsibility they hold.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,969
    Northstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Northstar said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    Mr. Sandpit, working on a Sunday? Alas.

    Don't they have Sundays on Fridays out there?
    Yes. Their God expects you to tell him or her how wonderful s/he is on Friday, while ours mostly listens on Sunday.

    You can see how somebody from Mars might be confused. Or maybe the Martian God is a Tuesday person.
    To be fair, he’s the same God so he’s just balancing his workload
    What makes you think it is the same God? Clearly one or other tradition has got major aspects wrong.
    That may be, but both religions explicitly believe they’re talking about the same God, the ‘God of Abraham’.
    All four religions please, minimum.
    Five minimum given Judaism, if we’re going to be particular :-)
    Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Baha'i, ...?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,452
    isam said:

    Not having Rayner as a potential leader one bit. First time I’ve heard her speak and comes across terribly to me

    https://twitter.com/ridgeonsunday/status/1442034501656346630?s=21

    This is the new politics. All the old standards on probity and conduct in public life have been dismembered and interred. Largely by Johnson.

    Anyway, she's right; they are scum.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Asked if there will be no turkeys this Christmas because of the driver shortage, Grant Shapps says

    "That is not true" #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442034094725083136

    Grant Shapps is right. The turkey shortage will be due to a lack of staff (Brexit) and carbon dioxide, not drivers.
  • ping said:

    I’m bracing myself for a month or so of sporadic petrol shortages. I think that is how this plays out, until everyone’s tank is full.

    It’s a media generated shitshow, but mostly harmless.

    Remember that the start for this was an actual fuel shortage where insufficient drivers were available to deliver it. Yes it has been amplified, but with a big shortage of drivers and a "just pay more" piracy approach to contracts, the uncontrolled shortages we have seen in food and other goods has now spread to fuel.

    There is no need for the stupid we have seen. But keeping vehicle tanks topped makes sense.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,969
    If more people were sick with Covid, they wouldn't be out filling their cars up.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,946
    Farooq said:

    Northstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Northstar said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    Mr. Sandpit, working on a Sunday? Alas.

    Don't they have Sundays on Fridays out there?
    Yes. Their God expects you to tell him or her how wonderful s/he is on Friday, while ours mostly listens on Sunday.

    You can see how somebody from Mars might be confused. Or maybe the Martian God is a Tuesday person.
    To be fair, he’s the same God so he’s just balancing his workload
    What makes you think it is the same God? Clearly one or other tradition has got major aspects wrong.
    That may be, but both religions explicitly believe they’re talking about the same God, the ‘God of Abraham’.
    All four religions please, minimum.
    Five minimum given Judaism, if we’re going to be particular :-)
    Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Baha'i, ...?
    Rastafarianism.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276

    Scott_xP said:

    Asked if there will be no turkeys this Christmas because of the driver shortage, Grant Shapps says

    "That is not true" #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442034094725083136

    Grant Shapps is right. The turkey shortage will be due to a lack of staff (Brexit) and carbon dioxide, not drivers.
    I think it is baked (roasted?) In already, as British farmers have hatched 20% fewer turkey chicks already.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276
    Dura_Ace said:

    isam said:

    Not having Rayner as a potential leader one bit. First time I’ve heard her speak and comes across terribly to me

    https://twitter.com/ridgeonsunday/status/1442034501656346630?s=21

    This is the new politics. All the old standards on probity and conduct in public life have been dismembered and interred. Largely by Johnson.

    Anyway, she's right; they are scum.
    Yeah, I think she put up a good defence there.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs

    European Road Hauliers Association says temporary visa scheme won't tempt many EU drivers to the UK because pay and conditions are better in the EU, in part thanks to new EU rules, while Brexit red tape at customs is a big disencentive to driving to the UK.
    Rather bursts the bubble of those claiming we had to leave the EU to create a workers' paradise. Brexit = more red tape at the border + deregulation internally = fewer right for workers. It's a massive con perpetrated against the British working class by the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world.

    The truckers are all getting pay rises, I’m not sure they’re complaining too much.

    The ERHA are also confusing cross-border freight traffic into the UK, with UK-based hauliers looking to recruit drivers from abroad.
    If being in the EU undercut UK pay and conditions, how come pay and conditions are better in the EU than here? If the EU damages workers' rights, how come EU rules are more generous to workers than ours are?
    AIUI the UK driver shortage affects both cross border and purely internal routes (and there is a lot of overlap between the two, one of the great benefits of the Single Market being that it gets rid of these artificial distinctions created by borders).
    AIUI, France and Germany pay more for drivers than the UK does - because under the EU rules, more Eastern European workers found it prefereble to work in the UK so supply of labour was higher. Now there’s no longer FoM, and no new drivers coming over, the supply of labour is more restricted and the price is going up - heading towards the same price as we see in France and Germany.
    But wages are higher across the board in Germany ( and many other European countries besides ). it can't be be isolated to a short-term process in one sector.

    The UK chose to gut its trade union movement, so making it much harder for employees to work together to secure good wages. There are any number of people on this board and beyond proclaiming the need for better salaries across multiple sectors who have spent years routinely denouncing each and every strike ever called designed to secure higher pay and improved conditions.

    The strikes were political for the most part. Economic disputes get resolved fairly quickly
  • Scott_xP said:

    Crisis? What crisis?

    Transport Secretary Grant Shapps
    says at least the petrol crisis isnt as bad as the toilet roll crisis.

    "At some point everyone's cars will be filled up. It is not like the toilet roll crisis. It will come to an end."

    #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442035769044967424

    Ah, but what if people are buying fuel so they can drive off to buy toilet roll?
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Asked if there will be no turkeys this Christmas because of the driver shortage, Grant Shapps says

    "That is not true" #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442034094725083136

    Grant Shapps is right. The turkey shortage will be due to a lack of staff (Brexit) and carbon dioxide, not drivers.
    I think it is baked (roasted?) In already, as British farmers have hatched 20% fewer turkey chicks already.
    In three months time we’re going to be treated to scenes of mass brawls over a frozen Turkey in Lidl, aren’t we?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,011
    Some gobshite shouting “where’s the opposition” outside the BBC studio in Brighton.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,969
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Asked if there will be no turkeys this Christmas because of the driver shortage, Grant Shapps says

    "That is not true" #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442034094725083136

    Grant Shapps is right. The turkey shortage will be due to a lack of staff (Brexit) and carbon dioxide, not drivers.
    I think it is baked (roasted?) In already, as British farmers have hatched 20% fewer turkey chicks already.
    What have you baste those figures on?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276

    Scott_xP said:

    Crisis? What crisis?

    Transport Secretary Grant Shapps
    says at least the petrol crisis isnt as bad as the toilet roll crisis.

    "At some point everyone's cars will be filled up. It is not like the toilet roll crisis. It will come to an end."

    #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442035769044967424

    Ah, but what if people are panic buying fuel so they can drive off to panic buy toilet roll?
    Candles, firewood and bottled gas please...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 40,021
    The Sunday Rawnsley:

    You can’t tread water as an opposition leader. Momentum is essential. If you aren’t making visible progress, then you are going backwards....the Labour conference in Brighton swirls with anxiety. Friends as much as foes talk of this being a “make or break” week for the leader.

    So there’s much bafflement that Sir Keir was persuaded to turn it into an arena for internal conflict by triggering an unexpected battle over Labour’s constitutional rules.

    ..one former Labour cabinet minister says: “Keir has to develop a picture of what a Labour government would do. He’s got to say interesting things. He’s got to convey a vision.” Unconvinced that he has yet to meet any of these critical challenges, this veteran remarks: “Being Mr Solid isn’t going to be enough to do it with the country.”

    The most common criticism of him is the most unfair. It is not true that he doesn’t really believe in anything. I know this because, unlike most people, I have read the various speeches he has made during his time as leader. Their overarching theme is that the pandemic has illuminated the frailties and inequalities in British society while also demonstrating that there is a spirit of solidarity that can be harnessed to build a better country than is possible under Tories animated by selfish individualism.

    He has got things to say, but hasn’t found a way to engender a public appetite to hear them. On plausible accounts, Sir Keir and his inner circle have been working on little else other than the speech for many weeks. “All the effort over the past three months has gone into the speech,” says someone extremely well placed to know. “That’s why not much else has been happening.”

    The danger for him is that the weight of expectation has become much too heavy for a single speech to bear. One senior Labour figure comments: “All this talk about ‘he needs to give the speech of his life’. That places an expectation on the performative side of politics and that isn’t Keir’s forte.”
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,946

    ping said:

    I’m bracing myself for a month or so of sporadic petrol shortages. I think that is how this plays out, until everyone’s tank is full.

    It’s a media generated shitshow, but mostly harmless.

    Remember that the start for this was an actual fuel shortage where insufficient drivers were available to deliver it. Yes it has been amplified, but with a big shortage of drivers and a "just pay more" piracy approach to contracts, the uncontrolled shortages we have seen in food and other goods has now spread to fuel.

    There is no need for the stupid we have seen. But keeping vehicle tanks topped makes sense.
    There is a sort of zen perfection in that second paragraph. The two sentences are perfect contradictions of each other, but at the same time both are true.
  • Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Asked if there will be no turkeys this Christmas because of the driver shortage, Grant Shapps says

    "That is not true" #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442034094725083136

    Grant Shapps is right. The turkey shortage will be due to a lack of staff (Brexit) and carbon dioxide, not drivers.
    I think it is baked (roasted?) In already, as British farmers have hatched 20% fewer turkey chicks already.
    What have you baste those figures on?
    Sounds like a very gravy situation indeed
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 40,021
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Asked if there will be no turkeys this Christmas because of the driver shortage, Grant Shapps says

    "That is not true" #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442034094725083136

    Grant Shapps is right. The turkey shortage will be due to a lack of staff (Brexit) and carbon dioxide, not drivers.
    I think it is baked (roasted?) In already, as British farmers have hatched 20% fewer turkey chicks already.
    A pedant asks "how can you hatch fewer of something already?"
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,783

    Mr. JohnL, that sounds unnecessarily confusing.

    It's like Australians having Christmas in the summer and asking Santa for an Ashes win.
    Ah but they get to drink white wine in the sun, my all time favourite Christmas song.
  • Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/european-lorry-drivers-will-not-want-to-come-to-uk-warn-haulage-chiefs

    European Road Hauliers Association says temporary visa scheme won't tempt many EU drivers to the UK because pay and conditions are better in the EU, in part thanks to new EU rules, while Brexit red tape at customs is a big disencentive to driving to the UK.
    Rather bursts the bubble of those claiming we had to leave the EU to create a workers' paradise. Brexit = more red tape at the border + deregulation internally = fewer right for workers. It's a massive con perpetrated against the British working class by the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world.

    The truckers are all getting pay rises, I’m not sure they’re complaining too much.

    The ERHA are also confusing cross-border freight traffic into the UK, with UK-based hauliers looking to recruit drivers from abroad.
    If being in the EU undercut UK pay and conditions, how come pay and conditions are better in the EU than here? If the EU damages workers' rights, how come EU rules are more generous to workers than ours are?
    AIUI the UK driver shortage affects both cross border and purely internal routes (and there is a lot of overlap between the two, one of the great benefits of the Single Market being that it gets rid of these artificial distinctions created by borders).
    AIUI, France and Germany pay more for drivers than the UK does - because under the EU rules, more Eastern European workers found it prefereble to work in the UK so supply of labour was higher. Now there’s no longer FoM, and no new drivers coming over, the supply of labour is more restricted and the price is going up - heading towards the same price as we see in France and Germany.
    But wages are higher across the board in Germany ( and many other European countries besides ). it can't be be isolated to a short-term process in one sector.

    The UK chose to gut its trade union movement, so making it much harder for employees to work together to secure good wages. There are any number of people on this board and beyond proclaiming the need for better salaries across multiple sectors who have spent years routinely denouncing each and every strike ever called designed to secure higher pay and improved conditions.

    The strikes were political for the most part. Economic disputes get resolved fairly quickly

    Yes, strong trade unions deliver results for their members.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,893

    ping said:

    I’m bracing myself for a month or so of sporadic petrol shortages. I think that is how this plays out, until everyone’s tank is full.

    It’s a media generated shitshow, but mostly harmless.

    Remember that the start for this was an actual fuel shortage where insufficient drivers were available to deliver it. Yes it has been amplified, but with a big shortage of drivers and a "just pay more" piracy approach to contracts, the uncontrolled shortages we have seen in food and other goods has now spread to fuel.

    There is no need for the stupid we have seen. But keeping vehicle tanks topped makes sense.
    The events of the last few days was publics answer to the question ’ Do I trust The government to sort this out?’.

    By most peoples calculations, based on the experience of the past few years, it seem sensible to conclude it might be prudent to stock up. Less panic, more a reaction to the way we are governed and that they frequently lose control of events.
  • IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Asked if there will be no turkeys this Christmas because of the driver shortage, Grant Shapps says

    "That is not true" #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442034094725083136

    Grant Shapps is right. The turkey shortage will be due to a lack of staff (Brexit) and carbon dioxide, not drivers.
    I think it is baked (roasted?) In already, as British farmers have hatched 20% fewer turkey chicks already.
    A pedant asks "how can you hatch fewer of something already?"
    Haven’t a clue about turkey production but fewer eggs incubated at a guess?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,030
    And if you’re one of the many Tory MPs, “disgusted” and “outraged” by Angela Rayner’s comments, but not overly bothered by Boris Johnson’s compete and overt racism, then you don’t have a leg to stand on.
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1442039794654121989
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276
    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Asked if there will be no turkeys this Christmas because of the driver shortage, Grant Shapps says

    "That is not true" #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442034094725083136

    Grant Shapps is right. The turkey shortage will be due to a lack of staff (Brexit) and carbon dioxide, not drivers.
    I think it is baked (roasted?) In already, as British farmers have hatched 20% fewer turkey chicks already.
    What have you baste those figures on?


    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/poultry-and-poultry-meat-statistics/monthly-statistics-on-the-activity-of-uk-hatcheries-and-uk-poultry-slaughterhouses-data-for-january-2021
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,030
    Foxy said:

    Candles, firewood and bottled gas please...

    I did seriously consider buying a gas bottle for the barbeque, just in case.

    Of course I need fuel in the cat to go get one...
  • eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    Three month visas, what a joke. “ Hi Johnny Foreigner, please come and deliver our stuff for three months so Christmas will go smoothly. Then bugger off so we can enjoy it without you”

    Do you think it's a joke because it won't work or because it's unfair? Isn't this what happens/happened with fruit pickers?
    It won’t work. Fruit picking is itinerary work we’re you move to where the crops are at that moment in time.

    Would you quit a lorry driving job for 3 months in the Uk and a risk of no job to return to when the UK kicks you out 3 months later.
    I guess the way round that is to do deals with the foreign firms that currently employ the foreign drivers, so the drivers won't be switching jobs.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,893
    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    Candles, firewood and bottled gas please...

    I did seriously consider buying a gas bottle for the barbeque, just in case.

    Of course I need fuel in the cat to go get one...
    Miaooooow
  • IshmaelZ said:

    ping said:

    I’m bracing myself for a month or so of sporadic petrol shortages. I think that is how this plays out, until everyone’s tank is full.

    It’s a media generated shitshow, but mostly harmless.

    Remember that the start for this was an actual fuel shortage where insufficient drivers were available to deliver it. Yes it has been amplified, but with a big shortage of drivers and a "just pay more" piracy approach to contracts, the uncontrolled shortages we have seen in food and other goods has now spread to fuel.

    There is no need for the stupid we have seen. But keeping vehicle tanks topped makes sense.
    There is a sort of zen perfection in that second paragraph. The two sentences are perfect contradictions of each other, but at the same time both are true.
    I know! Its a self-fuelling problem.
  • Speaking of roast turkey..

    'My Secret Brexit Diary by Michel Barnier review – a British roasting'

    https://tinyurl.com/798eedbk

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    gealbhan said:

    Our Tory government are going for a high wage economy. Are there any negatives to a high wage economy?

    Maybe it widens the gap between the in work and out of work, including pensioners? Globalisation pops it’s head around the corner, excited by British workers pricing themselves out of a job? Can nice pay rises have an impact on inflation? Are they sure to be uniform across the country, that is it helps levelling up rather than throw light on it’s not level?


    The big problem with inflation is that it could force interest-rate rises. Then we’d all be f*cked.
    Not people with savings who are fucked by low interest rates.
    If inflation kicks off and we don’t increase interest rates we are equally f*cked.
    I fear that is the most likely path, being the politically least difficult
    So long as inflation doesn’t get stuck on an accelerating path then a little bit above trend doesn’t matter too much
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276
    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    Candles, firewood and bottled gas please...

    I did seriously consider buying a gas bottle for the barbeque, just in case.

    Of course I need fuel in the cat to go get one...
    No meat on the shelves in any case...
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,969
    Scott_xP said:

    And if you’re one of the many Tory MPs, “disgusted” and “outraged” by Angela Rayner’s comments, but not overly bothered by Boris Johnson’s compete and overt racism, then you don’t have a leg to stand on.
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1442039794654121989

    It's a fair point.
    I don't think it's clever politics from Rayner, it's a bit rash. But I still prefer rash and right over calculated and wrong.
  • Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Asked if there will be no turkeys this Christmas because of the driver shortage, Grant Shapps says

    "That is not true" #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442034094725083136

    Grant Shapps is right. The turkey shortage will be due to a lack of staff (Brexit) and carbon dioxide, not drivers.
    I think it is baked (roasted?) In already, as British farmers have hatched 20% fewer turkey chicks already.
    What have you baste those figures on?
    Sounds like a very gravy situation indeed
    The government will just wing it, as usual.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    By relaxing the visa regime the government will have raised expectations that supply problems will now be resolved. By relaxing the visa regime in the way it has the government has almost certainly ensured that supply problems will not be resolved. There will either have to be further u-turns or this is going to be a long-term problem in multiple sectors.

    It was a mistake. BP was pushing hard for it because it was in BP’s interests not because it was best for the country. The government folded.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,030
    Grant Shapps, transport secretary, on Marr:

    “There isn’t a dramatic shortage in drivers.”


    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1442041843764666368
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Asked if there will be no turkeys this Christmas because of the driver shortage, Grant Shapps says

    "That is not true" #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442034094725083136

    Grant Shapps is right. The turkey shortage will be due to a lack of staff (Brexit) and carbon dioxide, not drivers.
    I think it is baked (roasted?) In already, as British farmers have hatched 20% fewer turkey chicks already.
    What have you baste those figures on?
    Sounds like a very gravy situation indeed
    The government will just wing it, as usual.
    We're in for a stuffing then!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 33,406
    edited September 2021
    Charles said:

    By relaxing the visa regime the government will have raised expectations that supply problems will now be resolved. By relaxing the visa regime in the way it has the government has almost certainly ensured that supply problems will not be resolved. There will either have to be further u-turns or this is going to be a long-term problem in multiple sectors.

    It was a mistake. BP was pushing hard for it because it was in BP’s interests not because it was best for the country. The government folded.
    There's gonnae be a lot of 'a big boy made me do it and ran away' in the next months.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,859
    The last time Labour got a lead it was with Yougov and mainly due to Tory losses to RefUK and DK rather than switching to Labour.

    Labour has yet to really see any big swing from the Tories since 2019, it remains to be see whether the conference season will make much difference to that
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,783

    Three month visas, what a joke. “ Hi Johnny Foreigner, please come and deliver our stuff for three months so Christmas will go smoothly. Then bugger off so we can enjoy it without you”

    3 months isn't the problem - people travel home for Christmas anyway. Its the restricted numbers which are the problem - nowhere near enough.
    It's plenty because it is vanishingly unlikely even that number will come. There is a shortage of drivers everywhere at the moment so why would they come here if they can get work nearer to home for roughly the same money?

    This was a political gesture by the government who felt under pressure to be seen to do something, even if it wasn't going to work. Not the greatest way to run a country but there we are.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,969
    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Asked if there will be no turkeys this Christmas because of the driver shortage, Grant Shapps says

    "That is not true" #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442034094725083136

    Grant Shapps is right. The turkey shortage will be due to a lack of staff (Brexit) and carbon dioxide, not drivers.
    I think it is baked (roasted?) In already, as British farmers have hatched 20% fewer turkey chicks already.
    What have you baste those figures on?


    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/poultry-and-poultry-meat-statistics/monthly-statistics-on-the-activity-of-uk-hatcheries-and-uk-poultry-slaughterhouses-data-for-january-2021
    No complaints about being given the facts -- thank you -- but I was mostly using your post as a foil to make a pun.
    But interesting nonetheless..
  • Three month visas, what a joke. “ Hi Johnny Foreigner, please come and deliver our stuff for three months so Christmas will go smoothly. Then bugger off so we can enjoy it without you”

    The other thing I wonder about this is, say an HGV driver is exceptionally well organized and applies for their UK visa tomorrow, how long is it going to take the British to actually issue it???
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Three month visas, what a joke. “ Hi Johnny Foreigner, please come and deliver our stuff for three months so Christmas will go smoothly. Then bugger off so we can enjoy it without you”

    It’s a short term contract - AIUI most drivers work on contracts. So get paid over the odds for a few months away from home and save up a bit of money for the family.

    It a rational choice for a certain demographic
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,859
    Scott_xP said:

    And if you’re one of the many Tory MPs, “disgusted” and “outraged” by Angela Rayner’s comments, but not overly bothered by Boris Johnson’s compete and overt racism, then you don’t have a leg to stand on.
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1442039794654121989

    Boris' 'complete and overt racism' of course has somehow led him to appoint the first British Asian Chancellor and the first British Asian Home Secretary and the fist Black British Business Secretary and the first British Asian Education Secretary
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 1,385
    So the latest mantra delivered to the no 10 lapdogs is to make out that the government is so worried about wages . The fact is most Brits will not do certain jobs regardless of how much you pay them so the rotting crops and lack of social care staff will remain .
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,940
    tlg86 said:

    Some gobshite shouting “where’s the opposition” outside the BBC studio in Brighton.

    Was it Jeremy Corbyn? The giveaway was "outside"... for the moment anyway.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,946
    nico679 said:

    So the latest mantra delivered to the no 10 lapdogs is to make out that the government is so worried about wages . The fact is most Brits will not do certain jobs regardless of how much you pay them so the rotting crops and lack of social care staff will remain .

    What jobs? What evidence?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,783
    Scott_xP said:

    Grant Shapps, transport secretary, on Marr:

    “There isn’t a dramatic shortage in drivers.”


    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1442041843764666368

    That's maybe not the smartest thing to say politically but its probably correct. The number of EU drivers who used to work here and are not in the 6m with leave to remain will be in the low hundreds. The number who haven't been able to sit their test and get going will be in the low thousands. If this was normal times these would be problems at the margins. The problems are because that friction is being added to existing supply problems from disruptions caused by Covid and our media are bordering on the hysterical. As our PM would say, prennez un grip.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    Mr. Sandpit, working on a Sunday? Alas.

    Don't they have Sundays on Fridays out there?
    Yes. Their God expects you to tell him or her how wonderful s/he is on Friday, while ours mostly listens on Sunday.

    You can see how somebody from Mars might be confused. Or maybe the Martian God is a Tuesday person.
    To be fair, he’s the same God so he’s just balancing his workload
    What makes you think it is the same God? Clearly one or other tradition has got major aspects wrong.
    Because I suspect that all humans are responding to the same primordial instincts.

    I don’t think it is likely that there are multiple deities hanging out Olympus-style.

    Clearly I think the Christian* interpretation is the correct one…

    * at least the Anglican/Episcopalian flavour
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,276
    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Asked if there will be no turkeys this Christmas because of the driver shortage, Grant Shapps says

    "That is not true" #ridge

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1442034094725083136

    Grant Shapps is right. The turkey shortage will be due to a lack of staff (Brexit) and carbon dioxide, not drivers.
    I think it is baked (roasted?) In already, as British farmers have hatched 20% fewer turkey chicks already.
    What have you baste those figures on?


    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/poultry-and-poultry-meat-statistics/monthly-statistics-on-the-activity-of-uk-hatcheries-and-uk-poultry-slaughterhouses-data-for-january-2021
    No complaints about being given the facts -- thank you -- but I was mostly using your post as a foil to make a pun.
    But interesting nonetheless..
    Interesting that the 2020 figures were down, though no anticipation in August 2020 that Christmas would be cancelled by Johnson.

    In our household we are not particularly turkey fans, and often have a large chicken, roast beef or pork.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited September 2021
    Jerry Can Gate 2012

    Panic at the pumps that brought pressure on the govt, helping to create years of Labour poll leads and eventually to… a Conservative majority

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/mar/30/francis-maude-petrol-panic-strike
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,946
    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And if you’re one of the many Tory MPs, “disgusted” and “outraged” by Angela Rayner’s comments, but not overly bothered by Boris Johnson’s compete and overt racism, then you don’t have a leg to stand on.
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1442039794654121989

    It's a fair point.
    I don't think it's clever politics from Rayner, it's a bit rash. But I still prefer rash and right over calculated and wrong.
    Not really, because Johnson's racism is half arsed and plausibly deniable.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 40,021
    edited September 2021

    Speaking of roast turkey..

    'My Secret Brexit Diary by Michel Barnier review – a British roasting'

    https://tinyurl.com/798eedbk

    “There is most definitely something wrong with the British system … every passing day shows that they have not realised the consequences of what is truly at stake here.”

    There ought to a be an inquiry into why, when we pride ourselves on our diplomatic prowess, we were so comprehensively defeated at the negotiation table, but this diary is probably the closest we will get.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,030
    Shapps denies driver shortages are a problem created by Brexit.

    “The problem is not actually a Brexit problem... We don’t want the solution to be to undercut the British workers”.

    #Marr

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1442043795789565953
  • Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Would be nice if the government actually thought about solving problems rather than creating headlines and defending their dogma against reality.

    When you have a Peronist government run by journalists, you're not going to get anything other than what we have.

    Never thought I’d say this, but I miss old skool pragmatic conservatism. They may have been in it for themselves, but at least they had some relationship with reality.

    This new Conservative party seems to marry all the old selfish bits with a fantasist, narcissist streak, where reality rarely gets a look in. Just get the headlines, defend the dogma and all is well.

    Pragmatic Toryism is alive and well. While bearing no special relation to the history of 'Tory' or 'Conservative' except keeping the name, it is in power in the UK, has been for 11 years and leads in almost every poll. At this moment no party is making a coherent and better offer to the public. When one did the Tories were out of power. When they do so again the pragmatic Tories will pragmatically respond.

    Nah, the pragmatic Tories I know left after Boris. Reflected on who left on PB. We’re left with the populists, nationalists and social conservatives.
    Yes, I find that on another, semi political site I frequent. The moderate Tories have become hard core Boris Johnson acolytes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,859
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Fishing said:

    Mr. Sandpit, working on a Sunday? Alas.

    Don't they have Sundays on Fridays out there?
    Yes. Their God expects you to tell him or her how wonderful s/he is on Friday, while ours mostly listens on Sunday.

    You can see how somebody from Mars might be confused. Or maybe the Martian God is a Tuesday person.
    To be fair, he’s the same God so he’s just balancing his workload
    What makes you think it is the same God? Clearly one or other tradition has got major aspects wrong.
    Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe in the same God of Abraham.

    Muslims and Christians also share Christ as a prophet, though while Christ is the main prophet for Christians, Muhammed is the main prophet for Muslims. Jews and Christians share the Old Testament but not the new as Christ is not a prophet for Jews, that is where the main differences lie
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,030
    I’m not sure the Tories are in a great position to take the moral high ground this morning! https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1442044505927081987/photo/1
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,893
    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    The last time Labour got a lead it was with Yougov and mainly due to Tory losses to RefUK and DK rather than switching to Labour.

    Labour has yet to really see any big swing from the Tories since 2019, it remains to be see whether the conference season will make much difference to that

    Completely O/T from the last thread...but just letting you know that I was triumphantly re-elected to Surrey County Council in May with an increased majority.
    Glad see there’s at least one non nutter left in the Tory party. Keep well JohnO.
This discussion has been closed.