France has recalled its ambassadors to the United States and Australia amid a backlash over a deal to supply submarines, the French foreign minister says - PA
I see Boris should pass a few more ex-PMs on the length of tenure list very shortly. He just recently passed George Hamilton-Gordon who, as everyone knows, was PM just before Palmeston.
Just another 19 years in power and he has the record.
Do you mean the Earl of Aberdeen?
Bad form to refer to a peer by their family name. Only Yanks do that.
As in, issuing proceedings called Giuffre vs Windsor?
If only naming conventions were the principal issue here.
If Andrew wanted to really mess with their heads,* he could perfectly legitimately say that he is not Andrew Windsor and never has been. He was Andrew of England or Edinburgh and then Andrew, Duke of York. He could even do what most people do and adopt his father’s name…
*This would of course be a considerable improvement on what he is alleged to have messed with in the past.
The great thing about Aukus is that when the French tried to invade us over Aukusgate we can now invoke the Fuck Our Enemies clause in Aukus and call upon our Aukusallies to help in our defence, so we simply get the Americans to nuke France and the Australians to overrun French polynesia, which should take about 2 days
As the story says 5 cases since 2014, I’d say don’t worry.
That's odd, because a friend of mine died of it in Devon 3 years ago.
There was a very interesting Horizon programme a year or two back on BSE and the link with variant Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease (vCJD). There can be very long incubation times for vCJD, potentially 50 years or more.
The full extent of the impact of BSE on the human population will only emerge slowly.
At this time I suspect it will be tiny. Incidence according to the nhs is 1 or 2 per million per in the U.K. There has been enough time now if it was going to be a big problem. And besides, if you develop CJD 50 years later, how certain can you be that it was that dodgy burger way back then? CJD does happen without BSE.
Yet there was that hotspot in north Leicestershire - where was it, Quorn? *checks* Queniborough. That was a real fright at the time.
France has recalled its ambassadors to the United States and Australia amid a backlash over a deal to supply submarines, the French foreign minister says - PA
France has recalled its ambassadors to the United States and Australia amid a backlash over a deal to supply submarines, the French foreign minister says - PA
They're going to throw the biggest tantrum since Napoleon got barred from Splash Mountain at Disneyland for being too small
Fun fact: Napoleon and Churchill were the same height
What about their bmi?
Churchill won the Battle of the Bulge
Hmm, I think that we have to compare like for like, to account for middle aged spread. Napoleon died aged 51, and at the same age (as Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1925) Churchill was quite slim.
On topic. Rentoul's point, that Davey's ruling out formal or informal coalition with the Tories undermines his future negotiating position, should be strengthened by observing that voters will be less likely to switch Con -> LD. It is a foolish move imho.
Davey's is a trading position in betting terms. He has plenty of time to change his mind and will decide his real position before election time. At the moment all he is saying is 'If you don't want Boris and you live in about 100 posh Tory seats mostly in the south where we will build a million houses everywhere except your constituency vote LD.'
Worked in C & A. It'll do for now. It will change.
John Sopel: "He's trying to make the worst of a bad situation" (about Macaron)
I think Macron's misplayed this - I thought he was going for "bad cop/good cop" - with his Ministers doing the former, and after a pause he could do the latter - but if they all play "bad cop" they just paint themselves into a corner.....
Are the Australians really going to spend $90 million on submarines? Is their navy that big?
Australian $ 90 Billion, was the price for the cancelled French contract. The price for the propose nuclear sub deal is yet to be determined, but unlikely to be cheaper.
At the request of the President of the Republic, I decided to immediately recall to Paris for consultations with our two ambassadors in the United States and in Australia.
This exceptional decision is justified by the exceptional gravity of the announcements made on September 15 by Australia and the United States.
The abandonment of the ocean-class submarine project that had linked Australia to France since 2016, and the announcement of a new partnership with the United States aimed at launching studies on possible future cooperation on sub -nuclear-powered navies constitute unacceptable behavior between allies and partners, the consequences of which affect the very conception that we have of our alliances, our partnerships and the importance of the Indo-Pacific for Europe.
Ben Judah @b_judah · 1h France and AUKUS? I'm struck by the humiliation inflicted on Macron at the G7. As he dressed down Johnson over Northern Ireland and boasted of ties to Australia in the Indo-Pacific, the Anglo three literally made a move on the sidelines. A hit on him, internationally, personally.
This is a direct slap in the face FOR MACRON
Remember these images from the G7:
"Emmanuel Macron made a beeline for Joe Biden after the G7 summit photo call in Cornwall. Biden, on whom Boris Johnson expended considerable energy attempting to politically woo ahead of the summit, warmly embraced the French president. Johnson was left lingering with Angela Merkel as he waited for the pair to catch up."
They're practically hugging. Biden gets all chummy and says to Macron "we're on the same page!"
At the very same time these shots were taken, Biden was plotting to steal France's enormous sub deal, torpedo Macron's Indo-Pacific policy, snub France in the cruellest way, and utterly ignore the EU
Biden is an absolute C*NT. I'm warming to him
He's a professional politician and he's absolutely played Macron while people were wibbling about how Biden cared about Ireland. 😂
Biden (and the rest of the American political establishment, especially on the Democrat side) cares very much about Ireland. However, the importance of the Irish situation is also overstated.
What the Americans care about above all is that the open border on the island of Ireland is maintained. Note that this is one thing, also, with which the British Government has never threatened to interfere. I'm far from convinced that the Americans give a monkeys whether or not the UK fiddles the technicalities of its wider agreements with the EU, still less that Boris Johnson pisses off the Northern Irish Unionists. So long as the movement of people and trade within Ireland is allowed to go undisturbed, it looks like that's enough for them.
Turning to the French, they're quite right to suggest that they've been shafted not just by the Americans but, collectively, by Australia, the US and Britain. But it's very hard to feel any sympathy for Macron. He's been one of the leading hardliners in the EU approach to Brexit. If you treat your neighbour as a rival and try to score points off them, you can hardly come over all shocked if the neighbour acts in kind from time to time.
Not really sure on that. The Ozzies are clear that this contract going of the rails was flagged up to Macron in June. And Le Monde reports that he knew about the announcement, as he had been told.
The contract started out as (checks) around 50 bn AUD in 2016, targeting first subs for around 2030, and is now up to 90bn (in constant AUD) and a 5+ year delay. And there is all kinds of shenanigans in the background. If all the tech transfer and other work is included, it is around 215 bn AUD, which is more than 10% of Oz GDP. Its true to say that the procurement process was a shambles, and that O got spectacularly bent-over.
I can definitely understand France feeling narked - this was their Al-Yamamah. The Ozzie have spent I think around 4bn, plus whatever penalty clauses are laid out.
As the story says 5 cases since 2014, I’d say don’t worry.
That's odd, because a friend of mine died of it in Devon 3 years ago.
There was a very interesting Horizon programme a year or two back on BSE and the link with variant Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease (vCJD). There can be very long incubation times for vCJD, potentially 50 years or more.
The full extent of the impact of BSE on the human population will only emerge slowly.
At this time I suspect it will be tiny. Incidence according to the nhs is 1 or 2 per million per in the U.K. There has been enough time now if it was going to be a big problem. And besides, if you develop CJD 50 years later, how certain can you be that it was that dodgy burger way back then? CJD does happen without BSE.
Yet there was that hotspot in north Leicestershire - where was it, Quorn? *checks* Queniborough. That was a real fright at the time.
Was not aware of that one. I'd always be suspicious of pattern spotting. A cluster standout so we attribute significance that may not be merited.
France has recalled its ambassadors to the United States and Australia amid a backlash over a deal to supply submarines, the French foreign minister says - PA
France has recalled its ambassadors to the United States and Australia amid a backlash over a deal to supply submarines, the French foreign minister says - PA
They're going to throw the biggest tantrum since Napoleon got barred from Splash Mountain at Disneyland for being too small
Fun fact: Napoleon and Churchill were the same height
What about their bmi?
Churchill won the Battle of the Bulge
Hmm, I think that we have to compare like for like, to account for middle aged spread. Napoleon died aged 51, and at the same age (as Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1925) Churchill was quite slim.
Didn’t he die of stomach cancer? Which presumably wouldn’t have improved his waistline.
Are the Australians really going to spend $90 million on submarines? Is their navy that big?
Australian $ 90 Billion, was the price for the cancelled French contract. The price for the propose nuclear sub deal is yet to be determined, but unlikely to be cheaper.
Include all the surrounding tech transfer and services and development, and it is well over 200 bn AUD.
Are the Australians really going to spend $90 million on submarines? Is their navy that big?
Australian $ 90 Billion, was the price for the cancelled French contract. The price for the propose nuclear sub deal is yet to be determined, but unlikely to be cheaper.
Sorry I meant 'billion'. I've just checked and that excludes a large cancellation fee to the French. What a waste of money!
On topic. Rentoul's point, that Davey's ruling out formal or informal coalition with the Tories undermines his future negotiating position, should be strengthened by observing that voters will be less likely to switch Con -> LD. It is a foolish move imho.
Davey's is a trading position in betting terms. He has plenty of time to change his mind and will decide his real position before election time. At the moment all he is saying is 'If you don't want Boris and you live in about 100 posh Tory seats mostly in the south where we will build a million houses everywhere except your constituency vote LD.'
Worked in C & A. It'll do for now. It will change.
No, it is a genuine one. No way would the LibDems support the architect of Brexit to continue.
I note that it is principally Brexiteer Tories that object to this position, but they wouldn't be voting for LD anyway. Overwhelmingly the target voters for the LDs are Tory Remainers and Centrist Labour supporters open to tactical voting. This policy works for these.
The great thing about Aukus is that when the French tried to invade us over Aukusgate we can now invoke the Fuck Our Enemies clause in Aukus and call upon our Aukusallies to help in our defence, so we simply get the Americans to nuke France and the Australians to overrun French polynesia, which should take about 2 days
Job done
For the purposes of clarity, and to avoid being banned - I DO NOT ACTUALLY WANT AMERICA TO "NUKE FRANCE"
However a small Anglo-French war would give us a good reason to blockade the Channel, which would solve the dinghy crossing problem
The great thing about Aukus is that when the French tried to invade us over Aukusgate we can now invoke the Fuck Our Enemies clause in Aukus and call upon our Aukusallies to help in our defence, so we simply get the Americans to nuke France and the Australians to overrun French polynesia, which should take about 2 days
Job done
For the purposes of clarity, and to avoid being banned - I DO NOT ACTUALLY WANT AMERICA TO "NUKE FRANCE"
However a small Anglo-French war would give us a good reason to blockade the Channel, which would solve the dinghy crossing problem
Could we not just adopt the Hartlepool monkey approach and claim all immigrants arriving via dingy are French Spys?
On topic. Rentoul's point, that Davey's ruling out formal or informal coalition with the Tories undermines his future negotiating position, should be strengthened by observing that voters will be less likely to switch Con -> LD. It is a foolish move imho.
Davey's is a trading position in betting terms. He has plenty of time to change his mind and will decide his real position before election time. At the moment all he is saying is 'If you don't want Boris and you live in about 100 posh Tory seats mostly in the south where we will build a million houses everywhere except your constituency vote LD.'
Worked in C & A. It'll do for now. It will change.
No, it is a genuine one. No way would the LibDems support the architect of Brexit to continue.
I note that it is principally Brexiteer Tories that object to this position, but they wouldn't be voting for LD anyway. Overwhelmingly the target voters for the LDs are Tory Remainers and Centrist Labour supporters open to tactical voting. This policy works for these.
Puts the Tories under a bit of pressure too. Really need a majority to continue in government. Not sure they'll have many takers after the last 2 who got in bed with them.
John Sopel: "He's trying to make the worst of a bad situation" (about Macaron)
I think Macron's misplayed this - I thought he was going for "bad cop/good cop" - with his Ministers doing the former, and after a pause he could do the latter - but if they all play "bad cop" they just paint themselves into a corner.....
Yeah I really don't think that any politician would trust Johnson to form a pact with him. He s&&t the bed with his border in the Irish Sea which no British PM could ever agree to and standing staring business people in the eye saying there will be no checks between NI and GB.
You would have to be a special type of stupid to believe anything he said when offering a pact with the political party you lead.
I think that if Johnson lost his majority, there would be a new leader to negotiate with.
That said, there is no way that the Lib Dems would support the party of Brexit. We want closer economic, social and cultural links with the EU. EEA or similar.
Yes absolutely but look at the Cons now - flying high why would there be a new leader? Sure the Cons/BJ's numbers are slipping but this is mid-term they should be shocking instead they are bobbing around parity with Lab and still generally 5pts ahead.
I just don't see a new leader. And I backed Boris to be out by, er, Sep 2021 god help me.
My point is that if Johnson were needing to negotiate a coalition or C and S, he would be doing so because he lost more seats than his current majority. There would be a new Con leader, sure as eggs is eggs. Probably not quickly enough to negotiate though possibly that would be done by an acting leader.
Didn't the LibDems make clear in 2010 that while they might go into coalition with Labour, the price would be replacing Brown? (Not that the maths would have worked).
Yes, I don't think it tenable to support a PM who has just been rejected. Only the DUP make that mistake!
May wasnt rejected, she led the most popularly supported UK wide party.
It was a failure for her as she went backwards but it gets a but overegged.
There's an old saying that Success = Performance - Expectations
There is. And it's the very saying that you reject whenever I try to explain to you why GE17 was a success for Jeremy Corbyn.
It was a relative success but he still lost.
If Accrington Stanley hold Liverpool to a draw, earn a replay at Anfield where they again hold them to a draw, it's still a draw after stoppage time and they only get knocked out via penalties then that would be a great relative success for Accrington Stanley. But they'd still be knocked out and Liverpool would still progress to the next round.
Yes, a success relative to expectations but a technical loss. That's the saying put another way and applied to Corbyn's GE17. Ditto and opposite, with May, a failure relative to expectations but a technical win. Liverpool, Accrington Stanley, May, Corbyn, football, politics, whatever, one just needs to be consistent with it.
And while we're in ticking off mode, I noticed your mask slipped yesterday and you succumbed to "cheese eating surrender monkeys" syntax for France and the French, whilst glorying in this latest Anglosphere v China nonsense. Another outing for "Frogs" was clearly only just resisted.
It was noted. That's all I'll say for now.
If you think this Anglosphere v China nonsense is as you describe I would suggest you listen to Japan, South Korea, India, and the Trans Pacific countries to which this is very real, and the reason it is widely backed including by the HoC and even some EU countries
It's above my paygrade, Big G. But my thing is detecting "chaps we can trust" type sentimental belicosity dressed up as geopolitical analysis, and I detected some.
In simple terms Australia wants nuclear powered subs and France was supplying diesel
Australia agreed with the US to supply the technology which is shared only by the UK to build the subs in Adelaide
The Trans Pacific are building an alliance CPTPP to combat China in trade and with the UK and now US seeking to join
France will be included along with Canada at some point but not in the exclusive AUKUS deal
Well I hope it's not going to be another cold war. Or worse.
It sometimes seems to me that the post WW2 world needs these big conflict narratives to keep people busy. The "military industrial complex" and whatnot. The USSR thing finishes, you think it's all over, the End of History bla bla, and BANG, along comes Islamic fundamentalism. Then that fades away - although it hasn't really - and the US and us pull out of all that, so can we relax now and just concentrate on building Jerusalem at home? - no we damn well cannot because now it's CHINA! Etc Etc Etc.
The world is always full of threats. Sometimes it's actual war, sometimes it is just menace.
The rise of an aggressive, hostile China is an unfortunate fact. It would be great if wasn't happening. But it is
Mmm. But you get my drift, hopefully. Or perhaps you don't so I'll spell it out. The "Anglosphere" tooling up and fighting the good fight against China because others can't be trusted is a fantasy narrative. It has slightly more gravitas than the 'htg' one the other day but it's a fantasy nevertheless. You (and others) are squeezing the world and its affairs into what you'd like it to be. And that's my last word on this because it's a bit of an old-fashioned, reactionary topic. Sooner we get back to cutting edge social issues the better imo.
I don't think "the Anglosphere tooling up" is accurate. They know that they need everybody else - the Quad, but also the members of the Five Powers Defence Arrangement (which is UK SG AUS NZ MY), Philippines, SK and the others which have been mentioned.
IMO this is creating the DNA of a Pacific NATO, which others will then climb on, to give a sufficient counterweight to China.
There's a startling parallel to how the UN started up, with a small group. And in some ways as to how NATO started up as the trad Anglo-French hold-back-Germany alliance after WW2 (Treaty of Dunkirk), which then pivoted to "hold back USSR" when Germany was allowed in 5 years later, and then NATO.
As the story says 5 cases since 2014, I’d say don’t worry.
That's odd, because a friend of mine died of it in Devon 3 years ago.
There was a very interesting Horizon programme a year or two back on BSE and the link with variant Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease (vCJD). There can be very long incubation times for vCJD, potentially 50 years or more.
The full extent of the impact of BSE on the human population will only emerge slowly.
At this time I suspect it will be tiny. Incidence according to the nhs is 1 or 2 per million per in the U.K. There has been enough time now if it was going to be a big problem. And besides, if you develop CJD 50 years later, how certain can you be that it was that dodgy burger way back then? CJD does happen without BSE.
Yet there was that hotspot in north Leicestershire - where was it, Quorn? *checks* Queniborough. That was a real fright at the time.
Was not aware of that one. I'd always be suspicious of pattern spotting. A cluster standout so we attribute significance that may not be merited.
On topic. Rentoul's point, that Davey's ruling out formal or informal coalition with the Tories undermines his future negotiating position, should be strengthened by observing that voters will be less likely to switch Con -> LD. It is a foolish move imho.
Davey's is a trading position in betting terms. He has plenty of time to change his mind and will decide his real position before election time. At the moment all he is saying is 'If you don't want Boris and you live in about 100 posh Tory seats mostly in the south where we will build a million houses everywhere except your constituency vote LD.'
Worked in C & A. It'll do for now. It will change.
No, it is a genuine one. No way would the LibDems support the architect of Brexit to continue.
I note that it is principally Brexiteer Tories that object to this position, but they wouldn't be voting for LD anyway. Overwhelmingly the target voters for the LDs are Tory Remainers and Centrist Labour supporters open to tactical voting. This policy works for these.
Puts the Tories under a bit of pressure too. Really need a majority to continue in government. Not sure they'll have many takers after the last 2 who got in bed with them.
Certainly if the Tories do not get a majority or enough seats to potentially try and agree a deal with the DUP then we will go into opposition.
Davey would do a deal with Starmer, at least for confidence and supply, probably with support on confidence and supply too from the SNP.
Meanwhile the Tories would have opposition largely to themselves and could attack this new coalition of the liberal left firmly from the conservative right while the Greens can attack them from the populist Corbynite left
On topic. Rentoul's point, that Davey's ruling out formal or informal coalition with the Tories undermines his future negotiating position, should be strengthened by observing that voters will be less likely to switch Con -> LD. It is a foolish move imho.
Davey's is a trading position in betting terms. He has plenty of time to change his mind and will decide his real position before election time. At the moment all he is saying is 'If you don't want Boris and you live in about 100 posh Tory seats mostly in the south where we will build a million houses everywhere except your constituency vote LD.'
Worked in C & A. It'll do for now. It will change.
No, it is a genuine one. No way would the LibDems support the architect of Brexit to continue.
I note that it is principally Brexiteer Tories that object to this position, but they wouldn't be voting for LD anyway. Overwhelmingly the target voters for the LDs are Tory Remainers and Centrist Labour supporters open to tactical voting. This policy works for these.
Puts the Tories under a bit of pressure too. Really need a majority to continue in government. Not sure they'll have many takers after the last 2 who got in bed with them.
Certainly if the Tories do not get a majority or enough seats to potentially try and agree a deal with the DUP then we will go into opposition.
Davey would do a deal with Starmer, at least for confidence and supply, probably with support on confidence and supply too from the SNP.
Meanwhile the Tories would have opposition largely to themselves and could attack this new coalition of the liberal left firmly from the conservative right while the Greens can attack them from the populist Corbynite left
The Conservatives are more populist than the Greens right now.
Are the Australians really going to spend $90 million on submarines? Is their navy that big?
Australian $ 90 Billion, was the price for the cancelled French contract. The price for the propose nuclear sub deal is yet to be determined, but unlikely to be cheaper.
Sorry I meant 'billion'. I've just checked and that excludes a large cancellation fee to the French. What a waste of money!
Over a 50 year project, not an unreasonable sum for a capital ship programme. Nuclear subs are probably the most effective countermeasure to any threatening surface fleet. No way could the RAN hope to compete with any surface fleet
The Francophobia on this forum is fucking tiresome. Even in ‘jest’ it’s pathetic. FFS grow up. France, and the French, are lovely.
Of course they are, there's no need to take it seriously. The French government are having a tantrum and that's amusing, you don't think they get a good laugh at us on occasion?
No one sensible thinks we are anything but allies even when their President is having a strop. It's precisely because we are allies that we can criticise each other and make fun of each other without it altering us being allies.
The only thing sillier than stereotypical anglo-french jibes in either direction is getting uppity and self righteous about it. Perhaps you can follow the advice you give out and grow up, since throwing a strop over childish jokes is itself very childish.
Rise above it if you don't like it, don't embody it.
How sustainable is France's presence in the Pacific?
Not much. I've been reading
They have real trouble maintaining a viable military presence there. It is just too far away, too scattered, and France is relatively poorer compared to modern, much closer powers like the USA, China and even India
This is one reason they were superkeen on the Aussie deal. They were sort of hoping that it would tie them to Australia who would then "help out" in securing and policing the French Pacific. All that has now gone. So their entire policy towards the Dom-Toms in the S Pacific is fucked. Hence their anger now?
New Caledonia has a vote on indy at the end of the year. The last vote was a close Non. This could be closer
The Francophobia on this forum is fucking tiresome. Even in ‘jest’ it’s pathetic. FFS grow up. France, and the French, are lovely.
Of course they are, there's no need to take it seriously. The French government are having a tantrum and that's amusing, you don't think they get a good laugh at us on occasion?
No one sensible thinks we are anything but allies even when their President is having a strop. It's precisely because we are allies that we can criticise each other and make fun of each other without it altering us being allies.
The only thing sillier than stereotypical anglo-french jibes in either direction is getting uppity and self righteous about it. Perhaps you can follow the advice and grow up, since throwing a strop over childish jokes is itself very childish.
Rise above it if you don't like it.
Nah, I agree with Anabobazina. I think Franco-baiting isn't fun, it ranges from petty nationalism to childishness. I don't especially connect with France myself, but I'm bored with the jibes.
The Francophobia on this forum is fucking tiresome. Even in ‘jest’ it’s pathetic. FFS grow up. France, and the French, are lovely.
Give over
I love France: magnificent landscapes, generally friendly people, wonderfully rich culture, quite nice food, even their pop music is better than it was
But mocking the French is a national pastime, and has been for centuries. And I don't just mean on PB - it is everywhere. It's a fierce rivalry between friends (mostly). And it is mutual. The French love it when we trip over and fall in a heap of dung. They've never forgiven us for imposing English over French as the lingua franca
At the end of it, we would probably fight to defend each other. But the jokes would continue
The Francophobia on this forum is fucking tiresome. Even in ‘jest’ it’s pathetic. FFS grow up. France, and the French, are lovely.
Of course they are, there's no need to take it seriously. The French government are having a tantrum and that's amusing, you don't think they get a good laugh at us on occasion?
No one sensible thinks we are anything but allies even when their President is having a strop. It's precisely because we are allies that we can criticise each other and make fun of each other without it altering us being allies.
The only thing sillier than stereotypical anglo-french jibes in either direction is getting uppity and self righteous about it. Perhaps you can follow the advice you give out and grow up, since throwing a strop over childish jokes is itself very childish.
Rise above it if you don't like it, don't embody it.
The Francophobia on this forum is fucking tiresome. Even in ‘jest’ it’s pathetic. FFS grow up. France, and the French, are lovely.
Give over
I love France: magnificent landscapes, generally friendly people, wonderfully rich culture, quite nice food, even their pop music is better than it was
But mocking the French is a national pastime, and has been for centuries. And I don't just mean on PB - it is everywhere. It's a fierce rivalry between friends (mostly). And it is mutual. The French love it when we trip over and fall in a heap of dung. They've never forgiven us for imposing English over French as the lingua franca
At the end of it, we would probably fight to defend each other. But the jokes would continue
Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries. I fart in your general direction.
Are the Australians really going to spend $90 million on submarines? Is their navy that big?
Australian $ 90 Billion, was the price for the cancelled French contract. The price for the propose nuclear sub deal is yet to be determined, but unlikely to be cheaper.
Sorry I meant 'billion'. I've just checked and that excludes a large cancellation fee to the French. What a waste of money!
Over a 50 year project, not an unreasonable sum for a capital ship programme. Nuclear subs are probably the most effective countermeasure to any threatening surface fleet. No way could the RAN hope to compete with any surface fleet
On topic. Rentoul's point, that Davey's ruling out formal or informal coalition with the Tories undermines his future negotiating position, should be strengthened by observing that voters will be less likely to switch Con -> LD. It is a foolish move imho.
Davey's is a trading position in betting terms. He has plenty of time to change his mind and will decide his real position before election time. At the moment all he is saying is 'If you don't want Boris and you live in about 100 posh Tory seats mostly in the south where we will build a million houses everywhere except your constituency vote LD.'
Worked in C & A. It'll do for now. It will change.
If you are a socially liberal, ex-remain moderate former Conservative voter who wants a competent government, who would you vote for? The current Conservative party is arguably none of these, Labour if anything is less liberal (vaccine passports, anyone?) but under Starmer might at least be competent. I agree with Mr Meeks, Labour and Conservative are currently nearer to each other than the LDs to either. No moderate ex-Conservative will lose much sleep worrying about who Davey ends up putting in Number 10 as either without a majority will be better than either governing alone,
I stopped off there for a week in 1990. Lovely island, like a less dangerous PNG.
An annual rolling programme of independence referendums? They'll be giving the authorities in Old Caledonia ideas...
Under the Noumea agreement of 1998, 3 referendums are allowed.
I haven't seen any polling on the third referendum. The pro Independence bits are the rural areas, Noumea (the only town of any size, and the nickel mine are firmly in the Remain camp).
France subsidises NC to the amount of €1.5 Billion per year, equivalent to 15% of GDP.
Are the Australians really going to spend $90 million on submarines? Is their navy that big?
Australian $ 90 Billion, was the price for the cancelled French contract. The price for the propose nuclear sub deal is yet to be determined, but unlikely to be cheaper.
Sorry I meant 'billion'. I've just checked and that excludes a large cancellation fee to the French. What a waste of money!
Over a 50 year project, not an unreasonable sum for a capital ship programme. Nuclear subs are probably the most effective countermeasure to any threatening surface fleet. No way could the RAN hope to compete with any surface fleet
Will we beat yesterday's record of 7 hours in A&E? It looks like it.
We've already beaten Wednesday's record.
At this rate they'll be giving us a Loyalty Card.
We have reached that time of the night when the police start turning up with some very unappealing drunkards in tow
I feel sorry for the staff having to deal with them. Though my sympathy is tempered by wondering why the bloody hell they could not have dealt with Husband properly when he first turned up on the advice of NHS 111.
I stopped off there for a week in 1990. Lovely island, like a less dangerous PNG.
Does a nation allowing constituent parts to have referendums when they want them indicate a greater sense of national confidence?
New Caledonia is not a constituent part of Metropolitan France. It is not an overseas departement like Mayotte or Guadeloupe
France is not about to give a referendum to Corsica, or Brittany
Metropolitan France is European France. i.e what most of us would call ‘France’. You are conflating that term with… erm … France.
There are various definitions. Some French say metro France is All The Departements. Others say it is the Hexagon alone (excluding Corsica?)
It is a grey area
Anyway New Caledonia is not a departement and will not become one, they are quite indy minded. I reckon they will just about vote Non in December but vote Oui in the next decade, and go indy
On topic. Rentoul's point, that Davey's ruling out formal or informal coalition with the Tories undermines his future negotiating position, should be strengthened by observing that voters will be less likely to switch Con -> LD. It is a foolish move imho.
Davey's is a trading position in betting terms. He has plenty of time to change his mind and will decide his real position before election time. At the moment all he is saying is 'If you don't want Boris and you live in about 100 posh Tory seats mostly in the south where we will build a million houses everywhere except your constituency vote LD.'
Worked in C & A. It'll do for now. It will change.
If you are a socially liberal, ex-remain moderate former Conservative voter who wants a competent government, who would you vote for? The current Conservative party is arguably none of these, Labour if anything is less liberal (vaccine passports, anyone?) but under Starmer might at least be competent. I agree with Mr Meeks, Labour and Conservative are currently nearer to each other than the LDs to either. No moderate ex-Conservative will lose much sleep worrying about who Davey ends up putting in Number 10 as either without a majority will be better than either governing alone,
There are only two viable government parties. If you're considering voting LD, you ain't voting for a government.
I can't wait for the new one. Villeneuve is the greatest filmmaker in the world at the moment. And I have never seen an ensemble cast as good as this one.
If you are a socially liberal, ex-remain moderate former Conservative voter who wants a competent government, who would you vote for? The current Conservative party is arguably none of these, Labour if anything is less liberal (vaccine passports, anyone?) but under Starmer might at least be competent. I agree with Mr Meeks, Labour and Conservative are currently nearer to each other than the LDs to either. No moderate ex-Conservative will lose much sleep worrying about who Davey ends up putting in Number 10 as either without a majority will be better than either governing alone,
I am waiting till GE 2023 or whenever it is until I decide 👍
Are the Australians really going to spend $90 million on submarines? Is their navy that big?
Australian $ 90 Billion, was the price for the cancelled French contract. The price for the propose nuclear sub deal is yet to be determined, but unlikely to be cheaper.
Sorry I meant 'billion'. I've just checked and that excludes a large cancellation fee to the French. What a waste of money!
Over a 50 year project, not an unreasonable sum for a capital ship programme. Nuclear subs are probably the most effective countermeasure to any threatening surface fleet. No way could the RAN hope to compete with any surface fleet
If I were a betting man I'd wager they will be independent within a decade. They don't need much French subsidy, if any
The rest of the French Pacific does need a lot of subsidy, so is unlikely to secede. The threat to then is Chinese expansionism
They certainly spend money in these places.
The just built a 2bn Euro bypass for the Island of Reunion.
Interesting that the GDP of New Caledonia is $38k pp and Reunion is also high at $26k pp.
France is only a little higher.
That AMAZING road is in one of the crap Clarkson Grand Tours, isn't it? Phenomenal
My few visits to French Dom Toms have not been great. Martinique, Guadeloupe.... they are seriously subsidised but the locals are still an unhappy, surly bunch. French money pours in yet they seem to resent their dependence, even as they do nothing about it, and suckle on the teat of the mother country
Bit like Scotland, stuck on the nipple of England, but grizzling away
Are the Australians really going to spend $90 million on submarines? Is their navy that big?
Australian $ 90 Billion, was the price for the cancelled French contract. The price for the propose nuclear sub deal is yet to be determined, but unlikely to be cheaper.
Sorry I meant 'billion'. I've just checked and that excludes a large cancellation fee to the French. What a waste of money!
Over a 50 year project, not an unreasonable sum for a capital ship programme. Nuclear subs are probably the most effective countermeasure to any threatening surface fleet. No way could the RAN hope to compete with any surface fleet
On topic. Rentoul's point, that Davey's ruling out formal or informal coalition with the Tories undermines his future negotiating position, should be strengthened by observing that voters will be less likely to switch Con -> LD. It is a foolish move imho.
Davey's is a trading position in betting terms. He has plenty of time to change his mind and will decide his real position before election time. At the moment all he is saying is 'If you don't want Boris and you live in about 100 posh Tory seats mostly in the south where we will build a million houses everywhere except your constituency vote LD.'
Worked in C & A. It'll do for now. It will change.
Certainly we and the French troll each other, and it is fine.
Their latest submarine is named Suffren, after an Admiral who spanked our butt in the wars in India. Whilst our next one is called Agincourt.
Fine.
(We want another one called Iron Duke, please.)
Meanwhile our aircraft carriers groups did joint exercises in the Eastern Med this summer.
Personally, I think this is also to do very heavily with the French Election; if he was less shouty Mons. Macaron would risk being outflanked by Le Pen.
I stopped off there for a week in 1990. Lovely island, like a less dangerous PNG.
Does a nation allowing constituent parts to have referendums when they want them indicate a greater sense of national confidence?
If the pro-Union faction wins again, then there will be a devo-max type arrangement negotiated, put to a further referendum.
I had a lovely time there, with a strange experience on catching the bus to the airport which is an hours drive from Noumea, and an expensive taxi. Mrs Foxy and I caught the bus, on which we were the only white passengers. It was Friday afternoon and the other passengers were all Kanaks, and mostly quite drunk. The hostile stares and atmosphere were very uncomfortable.
Then one young man rather aggressively asked me something in French. I apologised that my French was poor, and asked if he could repeat the question. As soon as they realised we were not French the mood changed instantly, and we were pressed with presents of bannanas and rather rough rum. The rest of the journey was quite a party, and we were waved off at the airport most enthusiastically. The airport was closed and locked, but that is another tale...
Are the Australians really going to spend $90 million on submarines? Is their navy that big?
Australian $ 90 Billion, was the price for the cancelled French contract. The price for the propose nuclear sub deal is yet to be determined, but unlikely to be cheaper.
Sorry I meant 'billion'. I've just checked and that excludes a large cancellation fee to the French. What a waste of money!
Over a 50 year project, not an unreasonable sum for a capital ship programme. Nuclear subs are probably the most effective countermeasure to any threatening surface fleet. No way could the RAN hope to compete with any surface fleet
If I were a betting man I'd wager they will be independent within a decade. They don't need much French subsidy, if any
The rest of the French Pacific does need a lot of subsidy, so is unlikely to secede. The threat to then is Chinese expansionism
They certainly spend money in these places.
The just built a 2bn Euro bypass for the Island of Reunion.
Interesting that the GDP of New Caledonia is $38k pp and Reunion is also high at $26k pp.
France is only a little higher.
That AMAZING road is in one of the crap Clarkson Grand Tours, isn't it? Phenomenal
My few visits to French Dom Toms have not been great. Martinique, Guadeloupe.... they are seriously subsidised but the locals are still an unhappy, surly bunch. French money pours in yet they seem to resent their dependence, even as they do nothing about it, and suckle on the teat of the mother country
Bit like Scotland, stuck on the nipple of England, but grizzling away
And I want to get off the tit but you seem to enjoy having it chewed (and whining about it). Funny ol' world.
If you are a socially liberal, ex-remain moderate former Conservative voter who wants a competent government, who would you vote for? The current Conservative party is arguably none of these, Labour if anything is less liberal (vaccine passports, anyone?) but under Starmer might at least be competent. I agree with Mr Meeks, Labour and Conservative are currently nearer to each other than the LDs to either. No moderate ex-Conservative will lose much sleep worrying about who Davey ends up putting in Number 10 as either without a majority will be better than either governing alone,
There are only two viable government parties. If you're considering voting LD, you ain't voting for a government.
You were in 2010, by voting LD then you deprived Brown Labour of its majority but also prevented Cameron's Tories getting a majority making the LDs kingmaker as to who took office
For the nth time. The PRC isn't "expansionist". They are interested in reuniting all the bits they consider China. They certainly aren't interested in occupying or annexing anywhere else. It's one of the lessons learned from the fall of the Soviet Union. This isn't 1930's Japan. They have no interest in French Oceania. Unless they can make money out of it.
I stopped off there for a week in 1990. Lovely island, like a less dangerous PNG.
Does a nation allowing constituent parts to have referendums when they want them indicate a greater sense of national confidence?
New Caledonia is not a constituent part of Metropolitan France. It is not an overseas departement like Mayotte or Guadeloupe
France is not about to give a referendum to Corsica, or Brittany
Metropolitan France is European France. i.e what most of us would call ‘France’. You are conflating that term with… erm … France.
There are various definitions. Some French say metro France is All The Departements. Others say it is the Hexagon alone (excluding Corsica?)
It is a grey area
Anyway New Caledonia is not a departement and will not become one, they are quite indy minded. I reckon they will just about vote Non in December but vote Oui in the next decade, and go indy
You might be right, on both counts. I always understood Metro France to be the European landmass, but fair enough if it’s an ambiguous term.
As a side point, is New Caledonia the territory that is least like its original namesake? It’s a strong race: New South Wales and New Jersey worthy competitors.
I see Boris should pass a few more ex-PMs on the length of tenure list very shortly. He just recently passed George Hamilton-Gordon who, as everyone knows, was PM just before Palmeston.
Just another 19 years in power and he has the record.
Do you mean the Earl of Aberdeen?
Bad form to refer to a peer by their family name. Only Yanks do that.
On topic. Rentoul's point, that Davey's ruling out formal or informal coalition with the Tories undermines his future negotiating position, should be strengthened by observing that voters will be less likely to switch Con -> LD. It is a foolish move imho.
Davey's is a trading position in betting terms. He has plenty of time to change his mind and will decide his real position before election time. At the moment all he is saying is 'If you don't want Boris and you live in about 100 posh Tory seats mostly in the south where we will build a million houses everywhere except your constituency vote LD.'
Worked in C & A. It'll do for now. It will change.
No, it is a genuine one. No way would the LibDems support the architect of Brexit to continue.
I note that it is principally Brexiteer Tories that object to this position, but they wouldn't be voting for LD anyway. Overwhelmingly the target voters for the LDs are Tory Remainers and Centrist Labour supporters open to tactical voting. This policy works for these.
I am a liberal Brexit-supporter. I could very easily support the Lib Dems if they stuck to liberalism rather than going into Remainer identity politics. The EU wasn't even liberal in the first place.
If you are a socially liberal, ex-remain moderate former Conservative voter who wants a competent government, who would you vote for? The current Conservative party is arguably none of these, Labour if anything is less liberal (vaccine passports, anyone?) but under Starmer might at least be competent. I agree with Mr Meeks, Labour and Conservative are currently nearer to each other than the LDs to either. No moderate ex-Conservative will lose much sleep worrying about who Davey ends up putting in Number 10 as either without a majority will be better than either governing alone,
The act of voting is about choosing what's preferable. Reconcile yourself NOW to the fact that whoever you vote for will have something you don't like in their manifesto. That's just how it is. For me competent, serious government is a MUST and that's the Conservatives as they currently are are out of the picture. Doesn't mean my vote is a ringing endorsement of whoever ends up winning it, it's just the best I can do with what's available. I think this is the healthiest attitude.
How many have YOU been to? I think I've done the majority.
But I'd love to go some of the obscure ones I've missed: Manche, Haute Saone, he two Charentes, Vendee, the north Corsican one
My favourite (that I have visited) is the emptiest of all: Lozere. No one lives there, no one goes there. Indeed many people leave: depopulation is a real problem. It is the ultimate in La France Profonde, and the little "capital" Mende, is a gem
Comments
Job done
Worked in C & A. It'll do for now. It will change.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Crossley
*Well, a Baronet of the Carpet. It's close enough.
At the request of the President of the Republic, I decided to immediately recall to Paris for consultations with our two ambassadors in the United States and in Australia.
This exceptional decision is justified by the exceptional gravity of the announcements made on September 15 by Australia and the United States.
The abandonment of the ocean-class submarine project that had linked Australia to France since 2016, and the announcement of a new partnership with the United States aimed at launching studies on possible future cooperation on sub -nuclear-powered navies constitute unacceptable behavior between allies and partners, the consequences of which affect the very conception that we have of our alliances, our partnerships and the importance of the Indo-Pacific for Europe.
https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/dossiers-pays/australie/evenements/article/communique-de-jean-yves-le-drian-ministre-de-l-europe-et-des-affaires
The contract started out as (checks) around 50 bn AUD in 2016, targeting first subs for around 2030, and is now up to 90bn (in constant AUD) and a 5+ year delay. And there is all kinds of shenanigans in the background. If all the tech transfer and other work is included, it is around 215 bn AUD, which is more than 10% of Oz GDP. Its true to say that the procurement process was a shambles, and that O got spectacularly bent-over.
I can definitely understand France feeling narked - this was their Al-Yamamah. The Ozzie have spent I think around 4bn, plus whatever penalty clauses are laid out.
But the reaction is overegged.
I note that it is principally Brexiteer Tories that object to this position, but they wouldn't be voting for LD anyway. Overwhelmingly the target voters for the LDs are Tory Remainers and Centrist Labour supporters open to tactical voting. This policy works for these.
However a small Anglo-French war would give us a good reason to blockade the Channel, which would solve the dinghy crossing problem
It can easily afford $90bn AUSSIE spread over 20-30 years - or more
IMO this is creating the DNA of a Pacific NATO, which others will then climb on, to give a sufficient counterweight to China.
There's a startling parallel to how the UN started up, with a small group. And in some ways as to how NATO started up as the trad Anglo-French hold-back-Germany alliance after WW2 (Treaty of Dunkirk), which then pivoted to "hold back USSR" when Germany was allowed in 5 years later, and then NATO.
Basics here, though not sure what the current thinking is.
Davey would do a deal with Starmer, at least for confidence and supply, probably with support on confidence and supply too from the SNP.
Meanwhile the Tories would have opposition largely to themselves and could attack this new coalition of the liberal left firmly from the conservative right while the Greens can attack them from the populist Corbynite left
https://twitter.com/LawDavF/status/1438976911997288459?s=20
This is like an actual French Farce but in geopolitics
It is just sad to see
No one sensible thinks we are anything but allies even when their President is having a strop. It's precisely because we are allies that we can criticise each other and make fun of each other without it altering us being allies.
The only thing sillier than stereotypical anglo-french jibes in either direction is getting uppity and self righteous about it. Perhaps you can follow the advice you give out and grow up, since throwing a strop over childish jokes is itself very childish.
Rise above it if you don't like it, don't embody it.
We have received two requests from @UKGovScotland for military assistance, including for the @Scotambservice
MOD are now working with them to plan our support to @scotgov as we continue to support the #Covid19 pandemic response across the UK.
https://twitter.com/DefenceHQPress/status/1438910959788204037?s=20
They have real trouble maintaining a viable military presence there. It is just too far away, too scattered, and France is relatively poorer compared to modern, much closer powers like the USA, China and even India
This is one reason they were superkeen on the Aussie deal. They were sort of hoping that it would tie them to Australia who would then "help out" in securing and policing the French Pacific. All that has now gone. So their entire policy towards the Dom-Toms in the S Pacific is fucked. Hence their anger now?
New Caledonia has a vote on indy at the end of the year. The last vote was a close Non. This could be closer
Without adding up the numbers by region, "overseas France" has nearly 3 million people, and iirc 2 million of them are in the Indo-Pacific.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_France#Overseas_regions_and_departments
(Edited to avoid a debate about an Evil Empire league table.)
'2021:
Our adversaries will be enjoying this continuing ANNUS HORRIBILIS for the West.
Much to do at this year’s UN General Assembly - or our divisions and vacillation will be seriously exploited.'
https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1438977037599924225?s=20
https://youtu.be/n9xhJrPXop4
I love France: magnificent landscapes, generally friendly people, wonderfully rich culture, quite nice food, even their pop music is better than it was
But mocking the French is a national pastime, and has been for centuries. And I don't just mean on PB - it is everywhere. It's a fierce rivalry between friends (mostly). And it is mutual. The French love it when we trip over and fall in a heap of dung. They've never forgiven us for imposing English over French as the lingua franca
At the end of it, we would probably fight to defend each other. But the jokes would continue
It has been a very interesting week
Good night everyone
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_New_Caledonian_independence_referendum
I stopped off there for a week in 1990. Lovely island, like a less dangerous PNG.
There's a serious risk N Caledonia will vote to leave in December 2021 and even if they don't, the direction of travel is clear
This is for the good reason that New Caledonia makes a ton of money from mining
"New Caledonia gets first leader in favour of independence from France ahead of referendum"
https://www.france24.com/en/asia-pacific/20210708-new-caledonia-gets-first-leader-in-favour-of-independence-from-france-ahead-of-referendum
If I were a betting man I'd wager they will be independent within a decade. They don't need much French subsidy, if any
The rest of the French Pacific does need a lot of subsidy, so is unlikely to secede. The threat to then is Chinese expansionism
France is not about to give a referendum to Corsica, or Brittany
I have voted Lib Dem. Never again if his party's policy is to abolish sex-based rights, which it now seems to be following his interview this morning.
I haven't seen any polling on the third referendum. The pro Independence bits are the rural areas, Noumea (the only town of any size, and the nickel mine are firmly in the Remain camp).
France subsidises NC to the amount of €1.5 Billion per year, equivalent to 15% of GDP.
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210602-french-territory-of-new-caledonia-to-hold-third-independence-referendum
The just built a 2bn Euro bypass for the Island of Reunion.
Interesting that the GDP of New Caledonia is $38k pp and Reunion is also high at $26k pp.
France is only a little higher.
Will we beat yesterday's record of 7 hours in A&E? It looks like it.
We've already beaten Wednesday's record.
At this rate they'll be giving us a Loyalty Card.
We have reached that time of the night when the police start turning up with some very unappealing drunkards in tow
I feel sorry for the staff having to deal with them. Though my sympathy is tempered by wondering why the bloody hell they could not have dealt with Husband properly when he first turned up on the advice of NHS 111.
It is a grey area
Anyway New Caledonia is not a departement and will not become one, they are quite indy minded. I reckon they will just about vote Non in December but vote Oui in the next decade, and go indy
“Quite nice food” and a “really good” country.
Mon Dieu!
My few visits to French Dom Toms have not been great. Martinique, Guadeloupe.... they are seriously subsidised but the locals are still an unhappy, surly bunch. French money pours in yet they seem to resent their dependence, even as they do nothing about it, and suckle on the teat of the mother country
Bit like Scotland, stuck on the nipple of England, but grizzling away
Their latest submarine is named Suffren, after an Admiral who spanked our butt in the wars in India.
Whilst our next one is called Agincourt.
Fine.
(We want another one called Iron Duke, please.)
Meanwhile our aircraft carriers groups did joint exercises in the Eastern Med this summer.
Personally, I think this is also to do very heavily with the French Election; if he was less shouty Mons. Macaron would risk being outflanked by Le Pen.
I had a lovely time there, with a strange experience on catching the bus to the airport which is an hours drive from Noumea, and an expensive taxi. Mrs Foxy and I caught the bus, on which we were the only white passengers. It was Friday afternoon and the other passengers were all Kanaks, and mostly quite drunk. The hostile stares and atmosphere were very uncomfortable.
Then one young man rather aggressively asked me something in French. I apologised that my French was poor, and asked if he could repeat the question. As soon as they realised we were not French the mood changed instantly, and we were pressed with presents of bannanas and rather rough rum. The rest of the journey was quite a party, and we were waved off at the airport most enthusiastically. The airport was closed and locked, but that is another tale...
They certainly aren't interested in occupying or annexing anywhere else.
It's one of the lessons learned from the fall of the Soviet Union. This isn't 1930's Japan.
They have no interest in French Oceania. Unless they can make money out of it.
As a side point, is New Caledonia the territory that is least like its original namesake? It’s a strong race: New South Wales and New Jersey worthy competitors.
For me competent, serious government is a MUST and that's the Conservatives as they currently are are out of the picture. Doesn't mean my vote is a ringing endorsement of whoever ends up winning it, it's just the best I can do with what's available. I think this is the healthiest attitude.
How many have YOU been to? I think I've done the majority.
But I'd love to go some of the obscure ones I've missed: Manche, Haute Saone, he two Charentes, Vendee, the north Corsican one
My favourite (that I have visited) is the emptiest of all: Lozere. No one lives there, no one goes there. Indeed many people leave: depopulation is a real problem. It is the ultimate in La France Profonde, and the little "capital" Mende, is a gem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Departments_of_France#/media/File:France_départementale.svg