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Punters see WH2024 as a re-run of WH2020 – Biden v Trump – politicalbetting.com

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  • This is very good on why the Texas abortion ban is so punitive and dangerous:

    https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2021/09/the-texas-abortion-ban-is-a-threat-to-women-everywhere

    The thing to remember is that you cannot ban abortions. You can only ban safe abortions. Bans mean more women will die. Most of them will be from lower income and vulnerable groups.

    So? They shouldn't be having sex unless married anyway. So if they are blessed by God with a child that miracle should be protected from their sinful ways.

    Fair point. And, as we also know, women who are raped cannot get pregnant. God would not allow it.

  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.
    It wasn't really the constitution, the last few weeks were basically a coup d'etat where the military and everyone else just decided that Trump might technically be president but they were just going to ignore him.
    If there is a next time the military won't get that chance. We already saw MAGA appointees inserted into the Pentagon at the end (too late). Next time it will be the old generals being hauled away.

    Trump should be in jail. That he and his coupers are instead planning to get re-elected tells you everything you need to know about the state of the place.

    Here is reality. The GOP has gone - replaced by hard right radicals. The Republicans are not Grand or Old or Republicans. How does the country pull itself back from this ledge? One side thinks the other are traitors and those views harden over time. When the enemy are traitors you don't pander to them by trying to pretend its a democracy - the DNC will have to copy GOP tactics or it will lose.

    All hail Gilead. It is coming.
    I put this question to @TheScreamingEagles the other night but, as far as I am aware, he didn't answer. Given all you say above, would you ban the GOP as the Germans banned the Nazis post WW2 and on essentially the same grounds, namely the threat they pose to democracy? You obviously do believe they pose a threat and would commit a coup so, logically, if you believe that, the next step should be the outlawing of the party.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic and of interest mainly to me because it helps me not feel entirely helpless or alone.

    The Cyclefree Walnut-in-Throat Saga (cont'd).

    Husband still unable to swallow. Or sleep much either. I joined him in the insomnia and saw a beautiful dawn.

    Turns out that the stuff the hospital suggested - Buscopan - needs to be swallowed whole. Which is not much bloody use for a man who is at the hospital because he cannot swallow. And who now has a sore throat on top of everything else. And is losing his voice.

    Meanwhile no sign of the urgent referral to ENT doctors.

    I know we are all meant to worship at the altar of the NHS and they do heroic stuff etc and have been worked off their feet for the last year and a half. One doesn't want to be a nuisance like the fat girl eating chocolate lollies before complaining about all her fatness-related problems. I get all that. But not being able to swallow properly or eat is a bit sub-optimal, to be honest.

    Himself is not one for doctors or hospitals. He had to be dragged kicking and screaming there when his oxygen levels got low when he had Covid. Not this time. He's worried and uncomfortable. And so am I. And now it's Friday and the weekend and so nothing will happen unless it happens today.

    Aaaargh!

    Buscopan can be injected.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2021
    MrEd said:

    kamski said:

    Carnyx said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    Wrong. You only get to 50% by adding "illegal in all cases" to "illegal in most cases".
    He's also wrong about 50% of Texans surely - children, DNV etc. And that is opinion polling not a referendum.
    Yes, but even according to the opinion poll HYUFD linked to (extrapolating from national figures as I can't find the breakdown for Texas), there is an overwhelming majority in favour of abortion being either "legal in most cases" or "illegal in most cases" ie legal in some cases NOT "completely illegal". In other words there is a big majority who are in complete agreement that it is a question of where you draw the line, as any mature person would agree imho.
    The real battle in the abortion debate in the States is not between banning it outright or abortion up to birth (or even beyond) but about Hilary Clinton's dictum that abortion should be "safe, legal and rare" i.e. that it should be available but it shouldn't be seen as just another form of birth control.

    Ironically, Abbott knows that the Texas abortion law will probably be struck down at some point when the other abortion cases reach SCOTUS but he has already achieved what he wanted to down which is to raise his profile enormously amongst the GOP voting base. If Trump doesn't run in 2024, then Abbott is an increasingly likely contender.
    It will certainly help him with evangelicals who make up up to half of GOP primary voters

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    edited September 2021
    YouGov
    @YouGov

    Latest Westminster voting intention (15-16 Sep)

    Con: 39% (+6 from 8-9 Sep)
    Lab: 35% (n/c)
    Lib Dem: 7% (-3)
    Green: 7% (-2)
    SNP: 5% (n/c)
    Reform UK: 3% (-2)


    Which of the following do you think would make the best Prime Minister? (15-16 Sep)

    Boris Johnson: 31% (-1 from 2-3 Sep)
    Keir Starmer: 26% (-1)
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    Wrong. You only get to 50% by adding "illegal in all cases" to "illegal in most cases".
    The exceptions being a few cases like protecting the life of the mother, abortion would still be illegal otherwise from pregnancy
    The only actual recent poll I can find on the subject says this (poll from Feb 2021):


    "Public opinion in Texas about the availability of abortion has scarcely changed over the last several years. In this latest poll, 13% said abortion should never be permitted; 31% said “the law should permit abortion only in case of rape, incest or when the woman’s life is in danger"; 12% said it should also be allowed in other cases, “but only after the need for the abortion has been clearly established”; and 38% said “a woman should always be able to obtain an abortion as a matter of personal choice.”

    It also had in February:

    Texas laws restricting abortion should be:
    More strict 32%
    Left as is 18%
    Less strict 37%
    Don't know 13%

    So opinion polling simply does not support your claims.

    https://www.texastribune.org/2021/03/02/texas-gambling-abortion-marijuana-confederate/

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    That is a question much discussed in Special Care Baby Units when I had to do which things. I know I 'helped', in a small way, to 'save' a very premature baby, who never developed fully, and is now a somewhat 'challenged' adult.
    So still a living, sentient being then
  • MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.
    It wasn't really the constitution, the last few weeks were basically a coup d'etat where the military and everyone else just decided that Trump might technically be president but they were just going to ignore him.
    If there is a next time the military won't get that chance. We already saw MAGA appointees inserted into the Pentagon at the end (too late). Next time it will be the old generals being hauled away.

    Trump should be in jail. That he and his coupers are instead planning to get re-elected tells you everything you need to know about the state of the place.

    Here is reality. The GOP has gone - replaced by hard right radicals. The Republicans are not Grand or Old or Republicans. How does the country pull itself back from this ledge? One side thinks the other are traitors and those views harden over time. When the enemy are traitors you don't pander to them by trying to pretend its a democracy - the DNC will have to copy GOP tactics or it will lose.

    All hail Gilead. It is coming.
    I put this question to @TheScreamingEagles the other night but, as far as I am aware, he didn't answer. Given all you say above, would you ban the GOP as the Germans banned the Nazis post WW2 and on essentially the same grounds, namely the threat they pose to democracy? You obviously do believe they pose a threat and would commit a coup so, logically, if you believe that, the next step should be the outlawing of the party.
    No because that is unconstitutional (First Amendment) and quite rightly so. A power to ban political opponents could be just as readily abused by the GOP.
  • Worse than the disregard for elementary diplomatic protocol among close allies, or the loss of a deal so massive it was dubbed the “contract of the century,” the Australian-American-British alliance is a cruel reminder to France that partners and allies still do not perceive it as a credible partner with whom they can build an alternative to the U.S.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/jilted-france-fumes-and-takes-some-retaliatory-measures/
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Surely if that were true, abortions would be allowed at 38 weeks? The unborn baby has the right to live after a certain time, that is already the law isn’t it? I’m sitting here looking at the video of my son to be, currently 5 weeks away from being born - if my girlfriend started drinking a bottle of whiskey a day, that would infringe upon his rights as far as I’m concerned
    Yes, the logical conclusion of "my body, my choice" is that you allow abortions up to the point of birth (which is what was being proposed in Virginia).
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Surely if that were true, abortions would be allowed at 38 weeks? The unborn baby has the right to live after a certain time, that is already the law isn’t it? I’m sitting here looking at the video of my son to be, currently 5 weeks away from being born - if my girlfriend started drinking a bottle of whiskey a day, that would infringe upon his rights as far as I’m concerned
    To be consistent, he is already my son I guess. The point is it’s a sliding scale and the argument is where to draw the line. Given at 12 weeks you can see them moving, sucking their thumb and know whether there is a significant chance of DS etc, I don’t see why abortion should be allowed after that other than in exceptional circumstances
  • Gove ' pausing' controversial planning reforms
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    isam said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Surely if that were true, abortions would be allowed at 38 weeks? The unborn baby has the right to live after a certain time, that is already the law isn’t it? I’m sitting here looking at the video of my son to be, currently 5 weeks away from being born - if my girlfriend started drinking a bottle of whiskey a day, that would infringe upon his rights as far as I’m concerned
    To be consistent, he is already my son I guess. The point is it’s a sliding scale and the argument is where to draw the line. Given at 12 weeks you can see them moving, sucking their thumb and know whether there is a significant chance of DS etc, I don’t see why abortion should be allowed after that other than in exceptional circumstances
    Depends on your definition of exceptional circumstances
  • MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.
    It wasn't really the constitution, the last few weeks were basically a coup d'etat where the military and everyone else just decided that Trump might technically be president but they were just going to ignore him.
    If there is a next time the military won't get that chance. We already saw MAGA appointees inserted into the Pentagon at the end (too late). Next time it will be the old generals being hauled away.

    Trump should be in jail. That he and his coupers are instead planning to get re-elected tells you everything you need to know about the state of the place.

    Here is reality. The GOP has gone - replaced by hard right radicals. The Republicans are not Grand or Old or Republicans. How does the country pull itself back from this ledge? One side thinks the other are traitors and those views harden over time. When the enemy are traitors you don't pander to them by trying to pretend its a democracy - the DNC will have to copy GOP tactics or it will lose.

    All hail Gilead. It is coming.
    I put this question to @TheScreamingEagles the other night but, as far as I am aware, he didn't answer. Given all you say above, would you ban the GOP as the Germans banned the Nazis post WW2 and on essentially the same grounds, namely the threat they pose to democracy? You obviously do believe they pose a threat and would commit a coup so, logically, if you believe that, the next step should be the outlawing of the party.
    TBH I don't care that much. You get what you vote for. Americans vote to protect the rights of the psychopath who shoots their own children dead in their classrooms. So let them do what they want.

    It was obvious on the day and explicitly clear now that Trump ordered his supporters to overthrow the government. GOP elected representatives seem to think this is acceptable. So what does it matter what I think?

    I just don't know how America heals itself. One side sees the other as a direct threat to the nation. The other side IS a direct threat to the nation but does so on the premise that the first side are destroying it from within with liberalism and unchristian values like women's rights. You don't fix this by elections.

    Remember - the Nazi party was an electoral success. People voted for Hitler and his paramilitaries knowing all they had already done to try and overturn their failing democracy. Nobody banned the Nazis - instead they were invited into government.
  • Russian elections coming up (yes, I know). The thing to remember about them is that they are ludicrously biased in terms of media coverage, plus exclusion of hostile candidates, but they are not usually rigged, so the figures will tell us something about how well Puiin is doing in hanging onto popular support (spoiler: not well). The system is a blend of FPTP and PR, and Putin will need to do seriously badly not to win nearly all the first half. This is a good article on them:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/17/russians-head-to-the-polls-amid-anger-over-economy-and-covid

    and these are the current polls:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2021_Russian_legislative_election

    That latest poll (taken a week ago) appears to show a close race, but following the CIPKR link appears to lead to a communist website (others who read Russian beter may be able to say more definitely), so maybe to be disregarded. But even the previous polls look depressing for Putin.

    I'm on tenterhooks.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    isam said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Surely if that were true, abortions would be allowed at 38 weeks? The unborn baby has the right to live after a certain time, that is already the law isn’t it? I’m sitting here looking at the video of my son to be, currently 5 weeks away from being born - if my girlfriend started drinking a bottle of whiskey a day, that would infringe upon his rights as far as I’m concerned
    To be consistent, he is already my son I guess. The point is it’s a sliding scale and the argument is where to draw the line. Given at 12 weeks you can see them moving, sucking their thumb and know whether there is a significant chance of DS etc, I don’t see why abortion should be allowed after that other than in exceptional circumstances
    Depends on your definition of exceptional circumstances
    After you…
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Gove ' pausing' controversial planning reforms

    I thought they had already been binned
  • MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.
    It wasn't really the constitution, the last few weeks were basically a coup d'etat where the military and everyone else just decided that Trump might technically be president but they were just going to ignore him.
    If there is a next time the military won't get that chance. We already saw MAGA appointees inserted into the Pentagon at the end (too late). Next time it will be the old generals being hauled away.

    Trump should be in jail. That he and his coupers are instead planning to get re-elected tells you everything you need to know about the state of the place.

    Here is reality. The GOP has gone - replaced by hard right radicals. The Republicans are not Grand or Old or Republicans. How does the country pull itself back from this ledge? One side thinks the other are traitors and those views harden over time. When the enemy are traitors you don't pander to them by trying to pretend its a democracy - the DNC will have to copy GOP tactics or it will lose.

    All hail Gilead. It is coming.
    I put this question to @TheScreamingEagles the other night but, as far as I am aware, he didn't answer. Given all you say above, would you ban the GOP as the Germans banned the Nazis post WW2 and on essentially the same grounds, namely the threat they pose to democracy? You obviously do believe they pose a threat and would commit a coup so, logically, if you believe that, the next step should be the outlawing of the party.
    No because that is unconstitutional (First Amendment) and quite rightly so. A power to ban political opponents could be just as readily abused by the GOP.

    My guess is that the ban on Nazis was about more than being a threat to democracy. There may also have been an element of they systematically killed millions of Jews and others they did not like.

  • I view the choice in the US between the Democrats and Republicans as Alien v. Predator.

    Whoever wins, we lose.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited September 2021

    isam said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Surely if that were true, abortions would be allowed at 38 weeks? The unborn baby has the right to live after a certain time, that is already the law isn’t it? I’m sitting here looking at the video of my son to be, currently 5 weeks away from being born - if my girlfriend started drinking a bottle of whiskey a day, that would infringe upon his rights as far as I’m concerned
    To be consistent, he is already my son I guess. The point is it’s a sliding scale and the argument is where to draw the line. Given at 12 weeks you can see them moving, sucking their thumb and know whether there is a significant chance of DS etc, I don’t see why abortion should be allowed after that other than in exceptional circumstances
    Depends on your definition of exceptional circumstances
    I think he's alluded to it with the mention of DS in his post - danger to mother's life; chromosomal abnormalities ?

    That's broadly where I'd be too - 6 weeks is desperately short. 20 weeks for a healthy baby feels wrong too.
  • Gove ' pausing' controversial planning reforms

    I thought they had already been binned
    I think you can read binned into that statement
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    Wrong. You only get to 50% by adding "illegal in all cases" to "illegal in most cases".
    The exceptions being a few cases like protecting the life of the mother, abortion would still be illegal otherwise from pregnancy
    The only actual recent poll I can find on the subject says this (poll from Feb 2021):


    "Public opinion in Texas about the availability of abortion has scarcely changed over the last several years. In this latest poll, 13% said abortion should never be permitted; 31% said “the law should permit abortion only in case of rape, incest or when the woman’s life is in danger"; 12% said it should also be allowed in other cases, “but only after the need for the abortion has been clearly established”; and 38% said “a woman should always be able to obtain an abortion as a matter of personal choice.”

    It also had in February:

    Texas laws restricting abortion should be:
    More strict 32%
    Left as is 18%
    Less strict 37%
    Don't know 13%

    So opinion polling simply does not support your claims.

    https://www.texastribune.org/2021/03/02/texas-gambling-abortion-marijuana-confederate/

    Even on that poll only 38% want abortion on demand and 54% of Republican voters want stricter abortion laws.

    Republicans control the governors' mansion in Texas and the Texas state legislature and Republicans therefore get to decide as they won the elections in the state

  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    A 6-week limit is a ban on abortion by any other name, given that most women will only find out they are pregnant at around that time.

    Just to be clear on what you're talking about.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.
    It wasn't really the constitution, the last few weeks were basically a coup d'etat where the military and everyone else just decided that Trump might technically be president but they were just going to ignore him.
    If there is a next time the military won't get that chance. We already saw MAGA appointees inserted into the Pentagon at the end (too late). Next time it will be the old generals being hauled away.

    Trump should be in jail. That he and his coupers are instead planning to get re-elected tells you everything you need to know about the state of the place.

    Here is reality. The GOP has gone - replaced by hard right radicals. The Republicans are not Grand or Old or Republicans. How does the country pull itself back from this ledge? One side thinks the other are traitors and those views harden over time. When the enemy are traitors you don't pander to them by trying to pretend its a democracy - the DNC will have to copy GOP tactics or it will lose.

    All hail Gilead. It is coming.
    I put this question to @TheScreamingEagles the other night but, as far as I am aware, he didn't answer. Given all you say above, would you ban the GOP as the Germans banned the Nazis post WW2 and on essentially the same grounds, namely the threat they pose to democracy? You obviously do believe they pose a threat and would commit a coup so, logically, if you believe that, the next step should be the outlawing of the party.
    No because that is unconstitutional (First Amendment) and quite rightly so. A power to ban political opponents could be just as readily abused by the GOP.
    No, and I wouldn't think you would because you generally don't believe in that sort of stuff even though you dislike Trump intensely. My question is more to those on the left / left-leaning namely given your rhetoric re the GOP and Trump, would you ban the GOP?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.
    It wasn't really the constitution, the last few weeks were basically a coup d'etat where the military and everyone else just decided that Trump might technically be president but they were just going to ignore him.
    If there is a next time the military won't get that chance. We already saw MAGA appointees inserted into the Pentagon at the end (too late). Next time it will be the old generals being hauled away.

    Trump should be in jail. That he and his coupers are instead planning to get re-elected tells you everything you need to know about the state of the place.

    Here is reality. The GOP has gone - replaced by hard right radicals. The Republicans are not Grand or Old or Republicans. How does the country pull itself back from this ledge? One side thinks the other are traitors and those views harden over time. When the enemy are traitors you don't pander to them by trying to pretend its a democracy - the DNC will have to copy GOP tactics or it will lose.

    All hail Gilead. It is coming.
    I put this question to @TheScreamingEagles the other night but, as far as I am aware, he didn't answer. Given all you say above, would you ban the GOP as the Germans banned the Nazis post WW2 and on essentially the same grounds, namely the threat they pose to democracy? You obviously do believe they pose a threat and would commit a coup so, logically, if you believe that, the next step should be the outlawing of the party.
    No because that is unconstitutional (First Amendment) and quite rightly so. A power to ban political opponents could be just as readily abused by the GOP.
    No, and I wouldn't think you would because you generally don't believe in that sort of stuff even though you dislike Trump intensely. My question is more to those on the left / left-leaning namely given your rhetoric re the GOP and Trump, would you ban the GOP?
    If they tried it really would be a second US civil war
  • Background on nuclear propulsion:

    https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/non-power-nuclear-applications/transport/nuclear-powered-ships.aspx

    I hadn't realised how closely the US & UK worked - and its not a one-way street as some have claimed....

    Fancy that.

    From what you read on here you'd think all we do is ask the US if they wouldn't mind using a bit of vaseline.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic and of interest mainly to me because it helps me not feel entirely helpless or alone.

    The Cyclefree Walnut-in-Throat Saga (cont'd).

    Husband still unable to swallow. Or sleep much either. I joined him in the insomnia and saw a beautiful dawn.

    Turns out that the stuff the hospital suggested - Buscopan - needs to be swallowed whole. Which is not much bloody use for a man who is at the hospital because he cannot swallow. And who now has a sore throat on top of everything else. And is losing his voice.

    Meanwhile no sign of the urgent referral to ENT doctors.

    I know we are all meant to worship at the altar of the NHS and they do heroic stuff etc and have been worked off their feet for the last year and a half. One doesn't want to be a nuisance like the fat girl eating chocolate lollies before complaining about all her fatness-related problems. I get all that. But not being able to swallow properly or eat is a bit sub-optimal, to be honest.

    Himself is not one for doctors or hospitals. He had to be dragged kicking and screaming there when his oxygen levels got low when he had Covid. Not this time. He's worried and uncomfortable. And so am I. And now it's Friday and the weekend and so nothing will happen unless it happens today.

    Aaaargh!

    Buscopan can be injected.
    Well, that's great. Just effing dandy. But he was just told to get it from the chemist after the A&E doc spoke to an ENT doc on the phone, after Husband pointed out after 5 hours on his second visit that he had already been told the previous day that if he didn't get better he would need to see an ENT specialist so why was he waiting to see the same doctor he'd already seen.

    Even the pharmacist was puzzled why the doctor was recommending something for stomach cramps for a throat issue.

    What is he supposed to inject it with? We could ask the druggies hanging round the more insalubrious bits of Barrow I suppose.

    I would quite like to know how an apparently inoffensive walnut half which had been cooked and was soft could possibly do all this damage.

    I'd very much like to find a doctor to do their job and not fob us off.

  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    Wrong. You only get to 50% by adding "illegal in all cases" to "illegal in most cases".
    The exceptions being a few cases like protecting the life of the mother, abortion would still be illegal otherwise from pregnancy
    The only actual recent poll I can find on the subject says this (poll from Feb 2021):


    "Public opinion in Texas about the availability of abortion has scarcely changed over the last several years. In this latest poll, 13% said abortion should never be permitted; 31% said “the law should permit abortion only in case of rape, incest or when the woman’s life is in danger"; 12% said it should also be allowed in other cases, “but only after the need for the abortion has been clearly established”; and 38% said “a woman should always be able to obtain an abortion as a matter of personal choice.”

    It also had in February:

    Texas laws restricting abortion should be:
    More strict 32%
    Left as is 18%
    Less strict 37%
    Don't know 13%

    So opinion polling simply does not support your claims.

    https://www.texastribune.org/2021/03/02/texas-gambling-abortion-marijuana-confederate/

    Even on that poll only 38% want abortion on demand and 54% of Republican voters want stricter abortion laws.

    Republicans control the governors' mansion in Texas and the Texas state legislature and Republicans therefore get to decide as they won the elections in the state

    Constantly shifting the goalposts - you're so predictable!

    You started by claiming that according to polling

    "50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there"


    Now it's down to a *54% majority of Republican voters* wanted stricter abortion laws. Care to reflect on your original claim?

    "50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there"

    It's worth repeating as it is breathtakingly wrong.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    MrEd said:

    would you ban the GOP?

    At this point it's closer to a stochastic terrorist network that a political party so, yes.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343
    edited September 2021
    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    Wrong. You only get to 50% by adding "illegal in all cases" to "illegal in most cases".
    The exceptions being a few cases like protecting the life of the mother, abortion would still be illegal otherwise from pregnancy
    The only actual recent poll I can find on the subject says this (poll from Feb 2021):


    "Public opinion in Texas about the availability of abortion has scarcely changed over the last several years. In this latest poll, 13% said abortion should never be permitted; 31% said “the law should permit abortion only in case of rape, incest or when the woman’s life is in danger"; 12% said it should also be allowed in other cases, “but only after the need for the abortion has been clearly established”; and 38% said “a woman should always be able to obtain an abortion as a matter of personal choice.”

    It also had in February:

    Texas laws restricting abortion should be:
    More strict 32%
    Left as is 18%
    Less strict 37%
    Don't know 13%

    So opinion polling simply does not support your claims.

    https://www.texastribune.org/2021/03/02/texas-gambling-abortion-marijuana-confederate/

    Even on that poll only 38% want abortion on demand and 54% of Republican voters want stricter abortion laws.

    Republicans control the governors' mansion in Texas and the Texas state legislature and Republicans therefore get to decide as they won the elections in the state

    The debate between those who fundamentally say 'virtually never allowed' and 'virtually always allowed' is never going to resolve because both positions are extremes. Neither side recognises their own position as extreme but only the other one.

    We are not yet very far down the track of finding a rational and humanist middle position between these extremes which properly balances the rights of all parties. Partly because the debate is dominated by extremists who describe all middle and moderate positions as extreme.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    That is a question much discussed in Special Care Baby Units when I had to do which things. I know I 'helped', in a small way, to 'save' a very premature baby, who never developed fully, and is now a somewhat 'challenged' adult.
    So still a living, sentient being then
    Where do you put quality of life? I know the grandparents and I know the lad's condition has been a source of considerable worry and concern to his parents and to at least one set of grandparents.
  • HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.
    It wasn't really the constitution, the last few weeks were basically a coup d'etat where the military and everyone else just decided that Trump might technically be president but they were just going to ignore him.
    If there is a next time the military won't get that chance. We already saw MAGA appointees inserted into the Pentagon at the end (too late). Next time it will be the old generals being hauled away.

    Trump should be in jail. That he and his coupers are instead planning to get re-elected tells you everything you need to know about the state of the place.

    Here is reality. The GOP has gone - replaced by hard right radicals. The Republicans are not Grand or Old or Republicans. How does the country pull itself back from this ledge? One side thinks the other are traitors and those views harden over time. When the enemy are traitors you don't pander to them by trying to pretend its a democracy - the DNC will have to copy GOP tactics or it will lose.

    All hail Gilead. It is coming.
    I put this question to @TheScreamingEagles the other night but, as far as I am aware, he didn't answer. Given all you say above, would you ban the GOP as the Germans banned the Nazis post WW2 and on essentially the same grounds, namely the threat they pose to democracy? You obviously do believe they pose a threat and would commit a coup so, logically, if you believe that, the next step should be the outlawing of the party.
    No because that is unconstitutional (First Amendment) and quite rightly so. A power to ban political opponents could be just as readily abused by the GOP.
    No, and I wouldn't think you would because you generally don't believe in that sort of stuff even though you dislike Trump intensely. My question is more to those on the left / left-leaning namely given your rhetoric re the GOP and Trump, would you ban the GOP?
    If they tried it really would be a second US civil war
    Not sure the losers really accepted the result of the first, though, ironically, the GOP was on the winning side,
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.
    It wasn't really the constitution, the last few weeks were basically a coup d'etat where the military and everyone else just decided that Trump might technically be president but they were just going to ignore him.
    If there is a next time the military won't get that chance. We already saw MAGA appointees inserted into the Pentagon at the end (too late). Next time it will be the old generals being hauled away.

    Trump should be in jail. That he and his coupers are instead planning to get re-elected tells you everything you need to know about the state of the place.

    Here is reality. The GOP has gone - replaced by hard right radicals. The Republicans are not Grand or Old or Republicans. How does the country pull itself back from this ledge? One side thinks the other are traitors and those views harden over time. When the enemy are traitors you don't pander to them by trying to pretend its a democracy - the DNC will have to copy GOP tactics or it will lose.

    All hail Gilead. It is coming.
    I put this question to @TheScreamingEagles the other night but, as far as I am aware, he didn't answer. Given all you say above, would you ban the GOP as the Germans banned the Nazis post WW2 and on essentially the same grounds, namely the threat they pose to democracy? You obviously do believe they pose a threat and would commit a coup so, logically, if you believe that, the next step should be the outlawing of the party.
    TBH I don't care that much. You get what you vote for. Americans vote to protect the rights of the psychopath who shoots their own children dead in their classrooms. So let them do what they want.

    It was obvious on the day and explicitly clear now that Trump ordered his supporters to overthrow the government. GOP elected representatives seem to think this is acceptable. So what does it matter what I think?

    I just don't know how America heals itself. One side sees the other as a direct threat to the nation. The other side IS a direct threat to the nation but does so on the premise that the first side are destroying it from within with liberalism and unchristian values like women's rights. You don't fix this by elections.

    Remember - the Nazi party was an electoral success. People voted for Hitler and his paramilitaries knowing all they had already done to try and overturn their failing democracy. Nobody banned the Nazis - instead they were invited into government.
    The Nazis were banned for a period. It was their friends in high places who thought that they could be used as a weapon against the Left, who got them unbanned.

    The Gestapo had it's roots in the Prussian Secret Police who assiduously went after the Nazis. After the Nazis entered power, the way that same people in the same offices switched sides overnight was remarked upon.....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Carnyx said:

    I know a woman who desperately wanted to be a mother and who had an abortion that was absolutely heartbreaking for her, but she felt she needed it. She carries an extremely rare gene that is fatal to all males if they're born with it. Her brother died a horrible and painful death at 12 year old and medicine hasn't progressed for that disorder, she said she couldn't bring a child into the world only to suffer like that.

    First pregnancy had tests and showed the foetus was male. So had further tests and showed it had the gene so she an abortion and was absolutely heartbroken for months even though she knew in her mind she had done the right thing.

    Next child was female (so safe, gene doesn't affect women) and second and final pregnancy male but without the gene.

    The Texan law not only prohibits people from getting an abortion from before the point they could realise they're pregnant, it also prohibits all testing and screening.

    Do females not have a 50% chance of carrying the gene? The concern is that she might be putting her daughter into the same predicament 20-30 years down the line.
    Sounds like a Y chromosome linked defect so the X chromosome has it but only becomes active if the Y is present.
  • MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.
    It wasn't really the constitution, the last few weeks were basically a coup d'etat where the military and everyone else just decided that Trump might technically be president but they were just going to ignore him.
    If there is a next time the military won't get that chance. We already saw MAGA appointees inserted into the Pentagon at the end (too late). Next time it will be the old generals being hauled away.

    Trump should be in jail. That he and his coupers are instead planning to get re-elected tells you everything you need to know about the state of the place.

    Here is reality. The GOP has gone - replaced by hard right radicals. The Republicans are not Grand or Old or Republicans. How does the country pull itself back from this ledge? One side thinks the other are traitors and those views harden over time. When the enemy are traitors you don't pander to them by trying to pretend its a democracy - the DNC will have to copy GOP tactics or it will lose.

    All hail Gilead. It is coming.
    I put this question to @TheScreamingEagles the other night but, as far as I am aware, he didn't answer. Given all you say above, would you ban the GOP as the Germans banned the Nazis post WW2 and on essentially the same grounds, namely the threat they pose to democracy? You obviously do believe they pose a threat and would commit a coup so, logically, if you believe that, the next step should be the outlawing of the party.
    Good question. Non specifically should democracies allow the election of parties who plan to end democracy? Does this change as they get closer to power?

    Ideally this should be addressed by checks and balances so that removal of democracy requires both a super majority and more than one election to complete, rather than a ban on the parties.

    The issue in the US is that far from a super majority, this could be achieved by a clear minority, and the checks and balances are under big threats.

    I think the Democrats should be doing more to shore up democracy themselves, it means being more aggressive, but things like statehood for Washington or Puerto Rico or expanding the Supreme Court give some protection, along with more prosecutions over the coup.

    The bat shit crazy element in the Republican party will eventually go out of fashion, the question is whether that happens before or after the country becomes an undemocratic state with a leader and rubber stamped Russian style elections.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718

    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic and of interest mainly to me because it helps me not feel entirely helpless or alone.

    The Cyclefree Walnut-in-Throat Saga (cont'd).

    Husband still unable to swallow. Or sleep much either. I joined him in the insomnia and saw a beautiful dawn.

    Turns out that the stuff the hospital suggested - Buscopan - needs to be swallowed whole. Which is not much bloody use for a man who is at the hospital because he cannot swallow. And who now has a sore throat on top of everything else. And is losing his voice.

    Meanwhile no sign of the urgent referral to ENT doctors.

    I know we are all meant to worship at the altar of the NHS and they do heroic stuff etc and have been worked off their feet for the last year and a half. One doesn't want to be a nuisance like the fat girl eating chocolate lollies before complaining about all her fatness-related problems. I get all that. But not being able to swallow properly or eat is a bit sub-optimal, to be honest.

    Himself is not one for doctors or hospitals. He had to be dragged kicking and screaming there when his oxygen levels got low when he had Covid. Not this time. He's worried and uncomfortable. And so am I. And now it's Friday and the weekend and so nothing will happen unless it happens today.

    Aaaargh!

    All the best Cyclefree.

    I hope you get it all sorted today and you can enjoy the weekend together.
    Have you tried sea-sickness tablets which you can dissolve under the tongue, or the patches? Not quite the same ingredient, but very very close.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    edited September 2021
    Also your child won't end up a junky or addicted to deep fried delicacies. Probably.

    https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/1438798680178532353?s=20


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620

    Background on nuclear propulsion:

    https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/non-power-nuclear-applications/transport/nuclear-powered-ships.aspx

    I hadn't realised how closely the US & UK worked - and its not a one-way street as some have claimed....

    Fancy that.

    From what you read on here you'd think all we do is ask the US if they wouldn't mind using a bit of vaseline.
    The level of cooperation on nuclear weapons is even more intriguing. To the point where Chuck Hansen suggested that ,at least some, US weapons are actually joint US/UK designs.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited September 2021
    Cyclefree said:

    after husband pointed out after 5 hours on his second visit that he had already been told the previous day that if he didn't get better he would need to see an ENT specialist so why was he waiting to see the same doctor he'd already seen.

    That's a poor system the hospital has there. You'd have thought it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to know whereabouts the nearest ENT Doctor is - as you're going to be waiting for ~ 4 hours, even if they are 50 miles away in Morecambe (As was probably likely). I'm sure you'd make the drive.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Pulpstar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    after husband pointed out after 5 hours on his second visit that he had already been told the previous day that if he didn't get better he would need to see an ENT specialist so why was he waiting to see the same doctor he'd already seen.

    That's a poor system the hospital has there. You'd have thought it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to know whereabouts the nearest ENT A&E Doctor is - as you're going to be waiting for ~ 4 hours, even if they are 50 miles away in Morecambe (As was probably likely). I'm sure you'd make the drive.
    +1 - I would be checking which hospital has an ENT A&E Doctor available and driving to that hospital, even if its Manchester.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Dura_Ace said:

    How many flegs do you want on this, sir?
    All of them.



    Hope the pilot has a suitable name. I suppose Jonathan Bull would be too much to hope for but something like that.
  • There is no doubt that AUKUS has come as a bitter blow to France and the EU

    The Guardian this morning headline was the UK and US face backlash amid fears pact could provoke China

    Reading the article they named France and China, and squeezed in Theresa May's comments, but did not say how it had been welcomed by the HoC, Japan, South Korea, India and across the Trans Pacific and even from some EU states.

    This morning calls from the Dutch to involve the UK in close cooperation with the EU on defence and security is welcome

    Is it too much to hope a new attitude to Brexit could also be forthcoming, because longer term the CPTPP is the place for world trade and that includes the EU joining alongside UK and US, who are reopening talks since the announcement of AUKUS
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic and of interest mainly to me because it helps me not feel entirely helpless or alone.

    The Cyclefree Walnut-in-Throat Saga (cont'd).

    Husband still unable to swallow. Or sleep much either. I joined him in the insomnia and saw a beautiful dawn.

    Turns out that the stuff the hospital suggested - Buscopan - needs to be swallowed whole. Which is not much bloody use for a man who is at the hospital because he cannot swallow. And who now has a sore throat on top of everything else. And is losing his voice.

    Meanwhile no sign of the urgent referral to ENT doctors.

    I know we are all meant to worship at the altar of the NHS and they do heroic stuff etc and have been worked off their feet for the last year and a half. One doesn't want to be a nuisance like the fat girl eating chocolate lollies before complaining about all her fatness-related problems. I get all that. But not being able to swallow properly or eat is a bit sub-optimal, to be honest.

    Himself is not one for doctors or hospitals. He had to be dragged kicking and screaming there when his oxygen levels got low when he had Covid. Not this time. He's worried and uncomfortable. And so am I. And now it's Friday and the weekend and so nothing will happen unless it happens today.

    Aaaargh!

    Buscopan can be injected.
    Well, that's great. Just effing dandy. But he was just told to get it from the chemist after the A&E doc spoke to an ENT doc on the phone, after Husband pointed out after 5 hours on his second visit that he had already been told the previous day that if he didn't get better he would need to see an ENT specialist so why was he waiting to see the same doctor he'd already seen.

    Even the pharmacist was puzzled why the doctor was recommending something for stomach cramps for a throat issue.

    What is he supposed to inject it with? We could ask the druggies hanging round the more insalubrious bits of Barrow I suppose.

    I would quite like to know how an apparently inoffensive walnut half which had been cooked and was soft could possibly do all this damage.

    I'd very much like to find a doctor to do their job and not fob us off.

    Pity Dr F's not here, and I'm out of date since I'm no longer registered, but my supposition would be that the A&E chap (chapess?) thought that the walnut had somehow caused the throat to spasm, and that relaxing the muscle would let nature take it's course.
    Which is why, elsewhere, I suggested the sea-sickness treatment.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574
    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    Effectively overturning Roe vs Wade is not much at all to do with Trumpism, that's simply a view taken by Trump for political convenience and is much more part of the 'mainstream' GOP philosophy. The GOP will try and make that happen with or without Trump.
    On the upside the approach that Texas is being used could be used for other purposes in other states.

    The ability to sue someone for carrying / owning a gun could be used in a whole host of eastern States / California to start an attempt at gun control.
    Not a chance. The SCOTUS has already decided it doesn't need to respect prior case law. They'd rapidly injuct such a law as being unconstitutional while letting the Texan law stand.

    If you don't need case law to be respected consistently then you can just do as you please and screw anyone else. RIP rule of law.
    It is, as they say, slightly more complicated than that. For the UK see, for example, this from 1966:


    Their Lordships regard the use of precedent as an indispensable foundation upon which to decide what is the law and its application to individual cases. It provides at least some degree of certainty upon which individuals can rely in the conduct of their affairs, as well as a basis for orderly development of legal rules.

    Their Lordships nevertheless recognise that too rigid adherence to precedent may lead to injustice in a particular case and also unduly restrict the proper development of the law. They propose therefore, to modify their present practice and, while treating formal decisions of this house as normally binding, to depart from a previous decision when it appears to be right to do so.

    In this connection they will bear in mind the danger of disturbing retrospectively the basis on which contracts, settlement of property, and fiscal arrangements have been entered into and also the especial need for certainty as to the criminal law. This announcement is not intended to affect the use of precedent elsewhere than in this House.

    The Practice Statement of 1966
    Note that this does not mean that it was intended that the House of Lords would depart from earlier decisions on a regular basis. Indeed since 1966 the House of Lords have only departed from their own past decisions on a handful of occasions.

    A good example occurs in the law of tort where the House of Lords in Murphy v. Brentwood [1991] 1 AC 398 overruled the earlier decision of the House of Lords in Anns v. Merton [1978] AC 728. The Practice statement was not intended to change the rules for courts other than the House of Lords.


    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    They have no legal rights.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620
    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    after husband pointed out after 5 hours on his second visit that he had already been told the previous day that if he didn't get better he would need to see an ENT specialist so why was he waiting to see the same doctor he'd already seen.

    That's a poor system the hospital has there. You'd have thought it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to know whereabouts the nearest ENT A&E Doctor is - as you're going to be waiting for ~ 4 hours, even if they are 50 miles away in Morecambe (As was probably likely). I'm sure you'd make the drive.
    +1 - I would be checking which hospital has an ENT A&E Doctor available and driving to that hospital, even if its Manchester.
    That is the attitude adopted by my wife - she comes from a country where healthcare is seen as a service you pay for. So she shops around for the best doctors and hospitals.

    It is interesting to see the shock this produces in some people. But it works.

    In my personal opinion, the NHS is structurally dysfunctional - it often seems to be a National Healthcare Prevention service, which spends time and effort keeping the patients away from the medics, and ensuring that the medics don't have the information they need, either.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,145
    edited September 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Carnyx said:

    I know a woman who desperately wanted to be a mother and who had an abortion that was absolutely heartbreaking for her, but she felt she needed it. She carries an extremely rare gene that is fatal to all males if they're born with it. Her brother died a horrible and painful death at 12 year old and medicine hasn't progressed for that disorder, she said she couldn't bring a child into the world only to suffer like that.

    First pregnancy had tests and showed the foetus was male. So had further tests and showed it had the gene so she an abortion and was absolutely heartbroken for months even though she knew in her mind she had done the right thing.

    Next child was female (so safe, gene doesn't affect women) and second and final pregnancy male but without the gene.

    The Texan law not only prohibits people from getting an abortion from before the point they could realise they're pregnant, it also prohibits all testing and screening.

    Do females not have a 50% chance of carrying the gene? The concern is that she might be putting her daughter into the same predicament 20-30 years down the line.
    Sounds like a Y chromosome linked defect so the X chromosome has it but only becomes active if the Y is present.
    PT did say that the mother was carrying the defective variant but not suffering from it.

    That could well mean a gene on the X chromosome, actually, where the normal allele is fully dominant and the defective allele in question is recessive.

    Females have two X chromosomes, ergo two copies of the gene. If the defective gene is rare they are most unlikely to have two defective genes, far more likely to have one normal and one defective version. So they are fine in themselves.

    IIRC there are some genes shared between X and Y but X [edit!] is a much bigger chromosome so there are plenty of genes on X which Y doesn't have. In this case the gene sounds like one of them.

    So a female carrier has a 50% chance of passing the defective version to her son who being male only has one copy of X as in all normal males. IIRC male red/green colour blindness is an example of this.

    But there are other possibilities, IANAE in this field and it's a long time since my genetics lessons at uni!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.
    It wasn't really the constitution, the last few weeks were basically a coup d'etat where the military and everyone else just decided that Trump might technically be president but they were just going to ignore him.
    If there is a next time the military won't get that chance. We already saw MAGA appointees inserted into the Pentagon at the end (too late). Next time it will be the old generals being hauled away.

    Trump should be in jail. That he and his coupers are instead planning to get re-elected tells you everything you need to know about the state of the place.

    Here is reality. The GOP has gone - replaced by hard right radicals. The Republicans are not Grand or Old or Republicans. How does the country pull itself back from this ledge? One side thinks the other are traitors and those views harden over time. When the enemy are traitors you don't pander to them by trying to pretend its a democracy - the DNC will have to copy GOP tactics or it will lose.

    All hail Gilead. It is coming.
    I put this question to @TheScreamingEagles the other night but, as far as I am aware, he didn't answer. Given all you say above, would you ban the GOP as the Germans banned the Nazis post WW2 and on essentially the same grounds, namely the threat they pose to democracy? You obviously do believe they pose a threat and would commit a coup so, logically, if you believe that, the next step should be the outlawing of the party.
    Not the party but there are individuals who imo a country which values its democracy would not allow anywhere near public office. The name I have on top of that list will surprise no-one with even the most cursory knowledge of my PB posting history.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574
    Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Not giving up:

    Australia may buy French nuclear submarines. They will be twice cheaper than the Americans.

    https://twitter.com/GerardAraud/status/1438776084250734594?s=20

    Be a real laugh if the French poke US and their lapdog in the eye , can only hope it goes that way.
    The AUKUS deal probably means jobs in Scotland given what we'll be exporting.

    But you don't care about that do you? You'd rather harm the Scottish economy than see Britain succeed. Truly cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
    Can you say precisely what these jobs in Scotland will be, just so I can see the size of the nose we’d be cutting off?

    Nice change to have Brits suggesting benefits if we stay rather than threatening econogeddon if we leave though. Normal service will be resumed shortly no doubt.
    UK subs are built in Barrow. No guarantee that the Aussie subs will be built in the UK (unless ofr course they are from the existing MoD order for the RN, as DA sapiently suggested might be the case: edit: would then be to no net benefit for anyone south or north of the border).

    Edit: can't think offhand of any bits of specialist kit made in Scotland, except certain hydraulics.
    The option that was pointed out to me by my old mate (a sundodger of long pedigree) on FB last night was the RAN give up on the Collins and do an interim purchase of license built German Type 214 (a much smaller, cheaper and simpler boat which needs a small crew) while they wait to be ushered into their bright new nuclear anglophone future. The RAN flirted with this option in about 2014/5 so it wouldn't be a surprise and would make a lot of financial sense. It also keeps the yard busy until the SSN design is finalised (2030?) which is politically very important.
    Thanks. I see the Indonesians and Koreans have Typ 214s too. Historically at least diesel boats also have been quieter than nukes but no idea if that is the case now.
    Not the newer ones, I think ?
    They have fully electric drive, and can run off batteries, with the reactor run at very low power, when they want to be really quiet.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    Effectively overturning Roe vs Wade is not much at all to do with Trumpism, that's simply a view taken by Trump for political convenience and is much more part of the 'mainstream' GOP philosophy. The GOP will try and make that happen with or without Trump.
    On the upside the approach that Texas is being used could be used for other purposes in other states.

    The ability to sue someone for carrying / owning a gun could be used in a whole host of eastern States / California to start an attempt at gun control.
    Not a chance. The SCOTUS has already decided it doesn't need to respect prior case law. They'd rapidly injuct such a law as being unconstitutional while letting the Texan law stand.

    If you don't need case law to be respected consistently then you can just do as you please and screw anyone else. RIP rule of law.
    It is, as they say, slightly more complicated than that. For the UK see, for example, this from 1966:


    Their Lordships regard the use of precedent as an indispensable foundation upon which to decide what is the law and its application to individual cases. It provides at least some degree of certainty upon which individuals can rely in the conduct of their affairs, as well as a basis for orderly development of legal rules.

    Their Lordships nevertheless recognise that too rigid adherence to precedent may lead to injustice in a particular case and also unduly restrict the proper development of the law. They propose therefore, to modify their present practice and, while treating formal decisions of this house as normally binding, to depart from a previous decision when it appears to be right to do so.

    In this connection they will bear in mind the danger of disturbing retrospectively the basis on which contracts, settlement of property, and fiscal arrangements have been entered into and also the especial need for certainty as to the criminal law. This announcement is not intended to affect the use of precedent elsewhere than in this House.

    The Practice Statement of 1966
    Note that this does not mean that it was intended that the House of Lords would depart from earlier decisions on a regular basis. Indeed since 1966 the House of Lords have only departed from their own past decisions on a handful of occasions.

    A good example occurs in the law of tort where the House of Lords in Murphy v. Brentwood [1991] 1 AC 398 overruled the earlier decision of the House of Lords in Anns v. Merton [1978] AC 728. The Practice statement was not intended to change the rules for courts other than the House of Lords.


    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    They have no legal rights.
    Except when their mother is in a car crash.

    Or so I dimly remember from law school.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,232
    edited September 2021

    There is no doubt that AUKUS has come as a bitter blow to France and the EU

    The Guardian this morning headline was the UK and US face backlash amid fears pact could provoke China

    Reading the article they named France and China, and squeezed in Theresa May's comments, but did not say how it had been welcomed by the HoC, Japan, South Korea, India and across the Trans Pacific and even from some EU states.

    This morning calls from the Dutch to involve the UK in close cooperation with the EU on defence and security is welcome

    Is it too much to hope a new attitude to Brexit could also be forthcoming, because longer term the CPTPP is the place for world trade and that includes the EU joining alongside UK and US, who are reopening talks since the announcement of AUKUS

    It's been an unmitigated disaster. I can't think of a time when the western democracies were riven with such mistrust and acrimony. From the US perspective - if the debacle in Afghanistan wasn't enough - it's proven that Biden is either senile and/or being advised by numpties. As for Boris - we all know he's a shallow buffoon, but this episode has stamped that with globally tragic consequences.
  • kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.
    It wasn't really the constitution, the last few weeks were basically a coup d'etat where the military and everyone else just decided that Trump might technically be president but they were just going to ignore him.
    If there is a next time the military won't get that chance. We already saw MAGA appointees inserted into the Pentagon at the end (too late). Next time it will be the old generals being hauled away.

    Trump should be in jail. That he and his coupers are instead planning to get re-elected tells you everything you need to know about the state of the place.

    Here is reality. The GOP has gone - replaced by hard right radicals. The Republicans are not Grand or Old or Republicans. How does the country pull itself back from this ledge? One side thinks the other are traitors and those views harden over time. When the enemy are traitors you don't pander to them by trying to pretend its a democracy - the DNC will have to copy GOP tactics or it will lose.

    All hail Gilead. It is coming.
    I put this question to @TheScreamingEagles the other night but, as far as I am aware, he didn't answer. Given all you say above, would you ban the GOP as the Germans banned the Nazis post WW2 and on essentially the same grounds, namely the threat they pose to democracy? You obviously do believe they pose a threat and would commit a coup so, logically, if you believe that, the next step should be the outlawing of the party.
    Not the party but there are individuals who imo a country which values its democracy would not allow anywhere near public office. The name I have on top of that list will surprise no-one with even the most cursory knowledge of my PB posting history.
    Meghan Markle?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,145

    Also your child won't end up a junky or addicted to deep fried delicacies. Probably.

    https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/1438798680178532353?s=20


    That's a rather optimistic view of boarding school life as I understand it. I knew someone who, in the 1970s, went to a "public" school which will remain nameless - though it was not in Scotland. He was so upset by a schoolmate that hedecked the other chap with an upper right - broke the mandible. Though I gather the powers that be took a very different view from the original impression when they discovered that the other chap had tried just once too often to persuade my chum to take drugs, hence the explosion ...
  • FFS.



    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford
    Exclusive:

    Both Dom Raab and Liz Truss have staked a claim to Chevening, a 115-room grace & favour residence in Kent

    Chevening traditionally goes to foreign secretary, but Nick Clegg shared it with William Hague when he was DPM

    Boris Johnson will have to decide who gets it
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    Effectively overturning Roe vs Wade is not much at all to do with Trumpism, that's simply a view taken by Trump for political convenience and is much more part of the 'mainstream' GOP philosophy. The GOP will try and make that happen with or without Trump.
    On the upside the approach that Texas is being used could be used for other purposes in other states.

    The ability to sue someone for carrying / owning a gun could be used in a whole host of eastern States / California to start an attempt at gun control.
    Not a chance. The SCOTUS has already decided it doesn't need to respect prior case law. They'd rapidly injuct such a law as being unconstitutional while letting the Texan law stand.

    If you don't need case law to be respected consistently then you can just do as you please and screw anyone else. RIP rule of law.
    It is, as they say, slightly more complicated than that. For the UK see, for example, this from 1966:


    Their Lordships regard the use of precedent as an indispensable foundation upon which to decide what is the law and its application to individual cases. It provides at least some degree of certainty upon which individuals can rely in the conduct of their affairs, as well as a basis for orderly development of legal rules.

    Their Lordships nevertheless recognise that too rigid adherence to precedent may lead to injustice in a particular case and also unduly restrict the proper development of the law. They propose therefore, to modify their present practice and, while treating formal decisions of this house as normally binding, to depart from a previous decision when it appears to be right to do so.

    In this connection they will bear in mind the danger of disturbing retrospectively the basis on which contracts, settlement of property, and fiscal arrangements have been entered into and also the especial need for certainty as to the criminal law. This announcement is not intended to affect the use of precedent elsewhere than in this House.

    The Practice Statement of 1966
    Note that this does not mean that it was intended that the House of Lords would depart from earlier decisions on a regular basis. Indeed since 1966 the House of Lords have only departed from their own past decisions on a handful of occasions.

    A good example occurs in the law of tort where the House of Lords in Murphy v. Brentwood [1991] 1 AC 398 overruled the earlier decision of the House of Lords in Anns v. Merton [1978] AC 728. The Practice statement was not intended to change the rules for courts other than the House of Lords.


    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    They have no legal rights.
    They do, otherwise abortion in the UK would be allowed up to birth, not restricted past 24 weeks as now
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880

    Background on nuclear propulsion:

    https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/non-power-nuclear-applications/transport/nuclear-powered-ships.aspx

    I hadn't realised how closely the US & UK worked - and its not a one-way street as some have claimed....


    The propulsion system on the Virginia and Seawolf is a (distant) descendant of that in the British Swiftsure boats though it's all designed and made in Kentucky now. That has nothing to do with nuclear technology where, since Liam Fox decided not to do a 100% British replacement for PWR2, it has definitely been a one way street.
  • Nigelb said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.
    It wasn't really the constitution, the last few weeks were basically a coup d'etat where the military and everyone else just decided that Trump might technically be president but they were just going to ignore him.
    In what way was it a coup ?
    Please give instances, as unless valid executive orders were refused, that’s simply wrong.
    OK that's fair, I'm full of shit.

    What we do have is generals assuring everybody that Trump won't be able to do things; Pelosi seems to have been told Trump wouldn't be in control of nuclear weapons, the Chinese were told, "If we decide to go to war with you I'll let you know in advance", the Afghans seem to have been told that they'd slow-walk Trump's attempt to immediately withdraw from Afghanistan (that at one point he signed an order for). But the last days seem to have just been total pandemonium, so Trump didn't manage to give clear enough orders about anything mad that they had to overtly disobey.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    That is a question much discussed in Special Care Baby Units when I had to do which things. I know I 'helped', in a small way, to 'save' a very premature baby, who never developed fully, and is now a somewhat 'challenged' adult.
    So still a living, sentient being then
    Where do you put quality of life? I know the grandparents and I know the lad's condition has been a source of considerable worry and concern to his parents and to at least one set of grandparents.
    I believe in life, full stop.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574
    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic and of interest mainly to me because it helps me not feel entirely helpless or alone.

    The Cyclefree Walnut-in-Throat Saga (cont'd).

    Husband still unable to swallow. Or sleep much either. I joined him in the insomnia and saw a beautiful dawn.

    Turns out that the stuff the hospital suggested - Buscopan - needs to be swallowed whole. Which is not much bloody use for a man who is at the hospital because he cannot swallow. And who now has a sore throat on top of everything else. And is losing his voice.

    Meanwhile no sign of the urgent referral to ENT doctors.

    I know we are all meant to worship at the altar of the NHS and they do heroic stuff etc and have been worked off their feet for the last year and a half. One doesn't want to be a nuisance like the fat girl eating chocolate lollies before complaining about all her fatness-related problems. I get all that. But not being able to swallow properly or eat is a bit sub-optimal, to be honest.

    Himself is not one for doctors or hospitals. He had to be dragged kicking and screaming there when his oxygen levels got low when he had Covid. Not this time. He's worried and uncomfortable. And so am I. And now it's Friday and the weekend and so nothing will happen unless it happens today.

    Aaaargh!

    I’m not a medic, but if it’s been over 24hours, he needs to see a specialist today, I think.

    @Foxy ?
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,784

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    after husband pointed out after 5 hours on his second visit that he had already been told the previous day that if he didn't get better he would need to see an ENT specialist so why was he waiting to see the same doctor he'd already seen.

    That's a poor system the hospital has there. You'd have thought it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to know whereabouts the nearest ENT A&E Doctor is - as you're going to be waiting for ~ 4 hours, even if they are 50 miles away in Morecambe (As was probably likely). I'm sure you'd make the drive.
    +1 - I would be checking which hospital has an ENT A&E Doctor available and driving to that hospital, even if its Manchester.
    That is the attitude adopted by my wife - she comes from a country where healthcare is seen as a service you pay for. So she shops around for the best doctors and hospitals.

    It is interesting to see the shock this produces in some people. But it works.

    In my personal opinion, the NHS is structurally dysfunctional - it often seems to be a National Healthcare Prevention service, which spends time and effort keeping the patients away from the medics, and ensuring that the medics don't have the information they need, either.
    I think I've mentioned before that my Mum got over and intervened once when an ambulance had been called by someone else for my Gran a number of years ago. On assessing the situation and confirming that the ambulance would be taking her to Tameside*, it was sent packing and Mum drove her to Stockport instead.

    * OTOH, I have only praise for my most recent interaction with the hospital.
  • There is no doubt that AUKUS has come as a bitter blow to France and the EU

    The Guardian this morning headline was the UK and US face backlash amid fears pact could provoke China

    Reading the article they named France and China, and squeezed in Theresa May's comments, but did not say how it had been welcomed by the HoC, Japan, South Korea, India and across the Trans Pacific and even from some EU states.

    This morning calls from the Dutch to involve the UK in close cooperation with the EU on defence and security is welcome

    Is it too much to hope a new attitude to Brexit could also be forthcoming, because longer term the CPTPP is the place for world trade and that includes the EU joining alongside UK and US, who are reopening talks since the announcement of AUKUS

    It's been an unmitigated disaster. I can't think of a time when the western democracies were riven with such mistrust and acrimony. From the US perspective - if the debacle in Afghanistan wasn't enough - it's proven that Biden is either senile and/or being advised by numpties. As for Boris - we all know he's a shallow buffoon, but this episode has stamped that with globally tragic consequences.
    I am sorry I just do not agree

    However if you see the EU as the be all end all it will leave a bitter taste for some, though it has been welcomed by quite a few EU countries
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    FFS.



    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford
    Exclusive:

    Both Dom Raab and Liz Truss have staked a claim to Chevening, a 115-room grace & favour residence in Kent

    Chevening traditionally goes to foreign secretary, but Nick Clegg shared it with William Hague when he was DPM

    Boris Johnson will have to decide who gets it

    The state of this
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    Wrong. You only get to 50% by adding "illegal in all cases" to "illegal in most cases".
    The exceptions being a few cases like protecting the life of the mother, abortion would still be illegal otherwise from pregnancy
    The only actual recent poll I can find on the subject says this (poll from Feb 2021):


    "Public opinion in Texas about the availability of abortion has scarcely changed over the last several years. In this latest poll, 13% said abortion should never be permitted; 31% said “the law should permit abortion only in case of rape, incest or when the woman’s life is in danger"; 12% said it should also be allowed in other cases, “but only after the need for the abortion has been clearly established”; and 38% said “a woman should always be able to obtain an abortion as a matter of personal choice.”

    It also had in February:

    Texas laws restricting abortion should be:
    More strict 32%
    Left as is 18%
    Less strict 37%
    Don't know 13%

    So opinion polling simply does not support your claims.

    https://www.texastribune.org/2021/03/02/texas-gambling-abortion-marijuana-confederate/

    Even on that poll only 38% want abortion on demand and 54% of Republican voters want stricter abortion laws.

    Republicans control the governors' mansion in Texas and the Texas state legislature and Republicans therefore get to decide as they won the elections in the state

    Constantly shifting the goalposts - you're so predictable!

    You started by claiming that according to polling

    "50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there"


    Now it's down to a *54% majority of Republican voters* wanted stricter abortion laws. Care to reflect on your original claim?

    "50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there"

    It's worth repeating as it is breathtakingly wrong.
    The original Pew poll showed most Texans want to make abortion mainly illegal, you happened to find another poll which showed slightly different results but still no support for abortion on demand.

    However regardless it is elections which decide not polls and the Republicans have won the Texas governorship and the Texan state legislature on a pro life platform so the Republicans get to decide
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    edited September 2021
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    That is a question much discussed in Special Care Baby Units when I had to do which things. I know I 'helped', in a small way, to 'save' a very premature baby, who never developed fully, and is now a somewhat 'challenged' adult.
    So still a living, sentient being then
    Where do you put quality of life? I know the grandparents and I know the lad's condition has been a source of considerable worry and concern to his parents and to at least one set of grandparents.
    I believe in life, full stop.
    Define life, please. And not just the biological one of being able to reproduce.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    That is a question much discussed in Special Care Baby Units when I had to do which things. I know I 'helped', in a small way, to 'save' a very premature baby, who never developed fully, and is now a somewhat 'challenged' adult.
    So still a living, sentient being then
    Where do you put quality of life? I know the grandparents and I know the lad's condition has been a source of considerable worry and concern to his parents and to at least one set of grandparents.
    I believe in life, full stop.
    What a weird and meaningless statement
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343
    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    Effectively overturning Roe vs Wade is not much at all to do with Trumpism, that's simply a view taken by Trump for political convenience and is much more part of the 'mainstream' GOP philosophy. The GOP will try and make that happen with or without Trump.
    On the upside the approach that Texas is being used could be used for other purposes in other states.

    The ability to sue someone for carrying / owning a gun could be used in a whole host of eastern States / California to start an attempt at gun control.
    Not a chance. The SCOTUS has already decided it doesn't need to respect prior case law. They'd rapidly injuct such a law as being unconstitutional while letting the Texan law stand.

    If you don't need case law to be respected consistently then you can just do as you please and screw anyone else. RIP rule of law.
    It is, as they say, slightly more complicated than that. For the UK see, for example, this from 1966:


    Their Lordships regard the use of precedent as an indispensable foundation upon which to decide what is the law and its application to individual cases. It provides at least some degree of certainty upon which individuals can rely in the conduct of their affairs, as well as a basis for orderly development of legal rules.

    Their Lordships nevertheless recognise that too rigid adherence to precedent may lead to injustice in a particular case and also unduly restrict the proper development of the law. They propose therefore, to modify their present practice and, while treating formal decisions of this house as normally binding, to depart from a previous decision when it appears to be right to do so.

    In this connection they will bear in mind the danger of disturbing retrospectively the basis on which contracts, settlement of property, and fiscal arrangements have been entered into and also the especial need for certainty as to the criminal law. This announcement is not intended to affect the use of precedent elsewhere than in this House.

    The Practice Statement of 1966
    Note that this does not mean that it was intended that the House of Lords would depart from earlier decisions on a regular basis. Indeed since 1966 the House of Lords have only departed from their own past decisions on a handful of occasions.

    A good example occurs in the law of tort where the House of Lords in Murphy v. Brentwood [1991] 1 AC 398 overruled the earlier decision of the House of Lords in Anns v. Merton [1978] AC 728. The Practice statement was not intended to change the rules for courts other than the House of Lords.


    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    They have no legal rights.
    Except when their mother is in a car crash.

    Or so I dimly remember from law school.
    Not so. Procuring an abortion is a serious criminal offence unless a statutory exception applies. The unborn have an absolute right not to be (deliberately) aborted otherwise.

    Common sense and humanist instinct says the same. Kicking a woman in the stomach is seen a serious criminal offence. We see it as even more serious when the kicker knows she is pregnant.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    There is no doubt that AUKUS has come as a bitter blow to France and the EU

    The Guardian this morning headline was the UK and US face backlash amid fears pact could provoke China

    Reading the article they named France and China, and squeezed in Theresa May's comments, but did not say how it had been welcomed by the HoC, Japan, South Korea, India and across the Trans Pacific and even from some EU states.

    This morning calls from the Dutch to involve the UK in close cooperation with the EU on defence and security is welcome

    Is it too much to hope a new attitude to Brexit could also be forthcoming, because longer term the CPTPP is the place for world trade and that includes the EU joining alongside UK and US, who are reopening talks since the announcement of AUKUS

    It's been an unmitigated disaster. I can't think of a time when the western democracies were riven with such mistrust and acrimony. From the US perspective - if the debacle in Afghanistan wasn't enough - it's proven that Biden is either senile and/or being advised by numpties. As for Boris - we all know he's a shallow buffoon, but this episode has stamped that with globally tragic consequences.
    You see it that way because it's your precious EU that is being sidelined. If it was FRAUS instead of AUKUS your reaction would be the opposite. Your partisanship and weird EU nationalism are beyond parody.
  • There is no doubt that AUKUS has come as a bitter blow to France and the EU

    The Guardian this morning headline was the UK and US face backlash amid fears pact could provoke China

    Reading the article they named France and China, and squeezed in Theresa May's comments, but did not say how it had been welcomed by the HoC, Japan, South Korea, India and across the Trans Pacific and even from some EU states.

    This morning calls from the Dutch to involve the UK in close cooperation with the EU on defence and security is welcome

    Is it too much to hope a new attitude to Brexit could also be forthcoming, because longer term the CPTPP is the place for world trade and that includes the EU joining alongside UK and US, who are reopening talks since the announcement of AUKUS

    It's been an unmitigated disaster. I can't think of a time when the western democracies were riven with such mistrust and acrimony. From the US perspective - if the debacle in Afghanistan wasn't enough - it's proven that Biden is either senile and/or being advised by numpties. As for Boris - we all know he's a shallow buffoon, but this episode has stamped that with globally tragic consequences.
    I am sorry I just do not agree

    However if you see the EU as the be all end all it will leave a bitter taste for some, though it has been welcomed by quite a few EU countries
    What I see as the be all and end all is unity amongst the western democracies. You obviously rather relish the division because it helps Boris.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    That is a question much discussed in Special Care Baby Units when I had to do which things. I know I 'helped', in a small way, to 'save' a very premature baby, who never developed fully, and is now a somewhat 'challenged' adult.
    So still a living, sentient being then
    Where do you put quality of life? I know the grandparents and I know the lad's condition has been a source of considerable worry and concern to his parents and to at least one set of grandparents.
    I believe in life, full stop.
    Define life, please. And not just the biological one of being able to reproduce.
    Human life from the moment a foetus becomes a living, sentient being until death must be protected
  • FFS.



    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford
    Exclusive:

    Both Dom Raab and Liz Truss have staked a claim to Chevening, a 115-room grace & favour residence in Kent

    Chevening traditionally goes to foreign secretary, but Nick Clegg shared it with William Hague when he was DPM

    Boris Johnson will have to decide who gets it

    The state of this
    Raab needs putting back in his box, though maybe his constituents will oblige in 24
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    FFS.



    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford
    Exclusive:

    Both Dom Raab and Liz Truss have staked a claim to Chevening, a 115-room grace & favour residence in Kent

    Chevening traditionally goes to foreign secretary, but Nick Clegg shared it with William Hague when he was DPM

    Boris Johnson will have to decide who gets it

    The state of this
    These bunfights have been going on for decades. There are X grace and favour residences and once in a while the PM appoints X+1 people to important roles and this argument breaks out.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.
    It wasn't really the constitution, the last few weeks were basically a coup d'etat where the military and everyone else just decided that Trump might technically be president but they were just going to ignore him.
    If there is a next time the military won't get that chance. We already saw MAGA appointees inserted into the Pentagon at the end (too late). Next time it will be the old generals being hauled away.

    Trump should be in jail. That he and his coupers are instead planning to get re-elected tells you everything you need to know about the state of the place.

    Here is reality. The GOP has gone - replaced by hard right radicals. The Republicans are not Grand or Old or Republicans. How does the country pull itself back from this ledge? One side thinks the other are traitors and those views harden over time. When the enemy are traitors you don't pander to them by trying to pretend its a democracy - the DNC will have to copy GOP tactics or it will lose.

    All hail Gilead. It is coming.
    I put this question to @TheScreamingEagles the other night but, as far as I am aware, he didn't answer. Given all you say above, would you ban the GOP as the Germans banned the Nazis post WW2 and on essentially the same grounds, namely the threat they pose to democracy? You obviously do believe they pose a threat and would commit a coup so, logically, if you believe that, the next step should be the outlawing of the party.
    Good question. Non specifically should democracies allow the election of parties who plan to end democracy? Does this change as they get closer to power?

    Ideally this should be addressed by checks and balances so that removal of democracy requires both a super majority and more than one election to complete, rather than a ban on the parties.

    The issue in the US is that far from a super majority, this could be achieved by a clear minority, and the checks and balances are under big threats.

    I think the Democrats should be doing more to shore up democracy themselves, it means being more aggressive, but things like statehood for Washington or Puerto Rico or expanding the Supreme Court give some protection, along with more prosecutions over the coup.

    The bat shit crazy element in the Republican party will eventually go out of fashion, the question is whether that happens before or after the country becomes an undemocratic state with a leader and rubber stamped Russian style elections.
    It’s a hard problem, as there is some constitutional cover for the means they are using to subvert fair elections at state level.

    There are no legal grounds to “ban” the GOP anyway, so @MrEd is effectively asking what would you do if you had dictatorial powers ? Which is a pretty silly question to ask in the context, and presumably why he didn’t get an answer the first time.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    That is a question much discussed in Special Care Baby Units when I had to do which things. I know I 'helped', in a small way, to 'save' a very premature baby, who never developed fully, and is now a somewhat 'challenged' adult.
    So still a living, sentient being then
    Where do you put quality of life? I know the grandparents and I know the lad's condition has been a source of considerable worry and concern to his parents and to at least one set of grandparents.
    I believe in life, full stop.
    Define life, please. And not just the biological one of being able to reproduce.
    Human life from the moment a foetus becomes a living, sentient being until death must be protected
    Sorry, but what is a 'living, sentient being'?

    The age at which a foetus became capable of independent life some years ago was less than now.
  • FFS.



    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford
    Exclusive:

    Both Dom Raab and Liz Truss have staked a claim to Chevening, a 115-room grace & favour residence in Kent

    Chevening traditionally goes to foreign secretary, but Nick Clegg shared it with William Hague when he was DPM

    Boris Johnson will have to decide who gets it

    The state of this
    Raab needs putting back in his box, though maybe his constituents will oblige in 24
    I remember Chevening - the name. It's an old Brythonic word, cognate with modern Welsh Cefn (a ridge).
  • MaxPB said:

    There is no doubt that AUKUS has come as a bitter blow to France and the EU

    The Guardian this morning headline was the UK and US face backlash amid fears pact could provoke China

    Reading the article they named France and China, and squeezed in Theresa May's comments, but did not say how it had been welcomed by the HoC, Japan, South Korea, India and across the Trans Pacific and even from some EU states.

    This morning calls from the Dutch to involve the UK in close cooperation with the EU on defence and security is welcome

    Is it too much to hope a new attitude to Brexit could also be forthcoming, because longer term the CPTPP is the place for world trade and that includes the EU joining alongside UK and US, who are reopening talks since the announcement of AUKUS

    It's been an unmitigated disaster. I can't think of a time when the western democracies were riven with such mistrust and acrimony. From the US perspective - if the debacle in Afghanistan wasn't enough - it's proven that Biden is either senile and/or being advised by numpties. As for Boris - we all know he's a shallow buffoon, but this episode has stamped that with globally tragic consequences.
    You see it that way because it's your precious EU that is being sidelined. If it was FRAUS instead of AUKUS your reaction would be the opposite. Your partisanship and weird EU nationalism are beyond parody.
    No, I don't want to see the EU sidelined. But nor would I want to see America or Australia sidelined in a different scenario. Unity amongst the democracies of the world is vital. Expand your moral horizons - there are things more important than one-upmanship over Brexit.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    That is a question much discussed in Special Care Baby Units when I had to do which things. I know I 'helped', in a small way, to 'save' a very premature baby, who never developed fully, and is now a somewhat 'challenged' adult.
    So still a living, sentient being then
    Where do you put quality of life? I know the grandparents and I know the lad's condition has been a source of considerable worry and concern to his parents and to at least one set of grandparents.
    I believe in life, full stop.
    What a weird and meaningless statement
    It's a great politician's answer - had to argue with, as you need to careful pick where to go from there.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    FFS.



    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford
    Exclusive:

    Both Dom Raab and Liz Truss have staked a claim to Chevening, a 115-room grace & favour residence in Kent

    Chevening traditionally goes to foreign secretary, but Nick Clegg shared it with William Hague when he was DPM

    Boris Johnson will have to decide who gets it

    It's absolubtely enormous, can't they share it ?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevening#/media/File:Chevening.jpg
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    MaxPB said:

    There is no doubt that AUKUS has come as a bitter blow to France and the EU

    The Guardian this morning headline was the UK and US face backlash amid fears pact could provoke China

    Reading the article they named France and China, and squeezed in Theresa May's comments, but did not say how it had been welcomed by the HoC, Japan, South Korea, India and across the Trans Pacific and even from some EU states.

    This morning calls from the Dutch to involve the UK in close cooperation with the EU on defence and security is welcome

    Is it too much to hope a new attitude to Brexit could also be forthcoming, because longer term the CPTPP is the place for world trade and that includes the EU joining alongside UK and US, who are reopening talks since the announcement of AUKUS

    It's been an unmitigated disaster. I can't think of a time when the western democracies were riven with such mistrust and acrimony. From the US perspective - if the debacle in Afghanistan wasn't enough - it's proven that Biden is either senile and/or being advised by numpties. As for Boris - we all know he's a shallow buffoon, but this episode has stamped that with globally tragic consequences.
    You see it that way because it's your precious EU that is being sidelined. If it was FRAUS instead of AUKUS your reaction would be the opposite. Your partisanship and weird EU nationalism are beyond parody.
    No, I don't want to see the EU sidelined. But nor would I want to see America or Australia sidelined in a different scenario. Unity amongst the democracies of the world is vital. Expand your moral horizons - there are things more important than one-upmanship over Brexit.
    We aren't looking at Brexit - we are looking at a world where the EU seems to be desperately trying to keep China and Russia happy regardless of long term costs to ensure gas and goods keep flowing.
  • Nigelb said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.
    It wasn't really the constitution, the last few weeks were basically a coup d'etat where the military and everyone else just decided that Trump might technically be president but they were just going to ignore him.
    If there is a next time the military won't get that chance. We already saw MAGA appointees inserted into the Pentagon at the end (too late). Next time it will be the old generals being hauled away.

    Trump should be in jail. That he and his coupers are instead planning to get re-elected tells you everything you need to know about the state of the place.

    Here is reality. The GOP has gone - replaced by hard right radicals. The Republicans are not Grand or Old or Republicans. How does the country pull itself back from this ledge? One side thinks the other are traitors and those views harden over time. When the enemy are traitors you don't pander to them by trying to pretend its a democracy - the DNC will have to copy GOP tactics or it will lose.

    All hail Gilead. It is coming.
    I put this question to @TheScreamingEagles the other night but, as far as I am aware, he didn't answer. Given all you say above, would you ban the GOP as the Germans banned the Nazis post WW2 and on essentially the same grounds, namely the threat they pose to democracy? You obviously do believe they pose a threat and would commit a coup so, logically, if you believe that, the next step should be the outlawing of the party.
    Good question. Non specifically should democracies allow the election of parties who plan to end democracy? Does this change as they get closer to power?

    Ideally this should be addressed by checks and balances so that removal of democracy requires both a super majority and more than one election to complete, rather than a ban on the parties.

    The issue in the US is that far from a super majority, this could be achieved by a clear minority, and the checks and balances are under big threats.

    I think the Democrats should be doing more to shore up democracy themselves, it means being more aggressive, but things like statehood for Washington or Puerto Rico or expanding the Supreme Court give some protection, along with more prosecutions over the coup.

    The bat shit crazy element in the Republican party will eventually go out of fashion, the question is whether that happens before or after the country becomes an undemocratic state with a leader and rubber stamped Russian style elections.
    It’s a hard problem, as there is some constitutional cover for the means they are using to subvert fair elections at state level.

    There are no legal grounds to “ban” the GOP anyway, so @MrEd is effectively asking what would you do if you had dictatorial powers ? Which is a pretty silly question to ask in the context, and presumably why he didn’t get an answer the first time.
    RICO to go after the party and/or the Trumps?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    That is a question much discussed in Special Care Baby Units when I had to do which things. I know I 'helped', in a small way, to 'save' a very premature baby, who never developed fully, and is now a somewhat 'challenged' adult.
    So still a living, sentient being then
    Where do you put quality of life? I know the grandparents and I know the lad's condition has been a source of considerable worry and concern to his parents and to at least one set of grandparents.
    I believe in life, full stop.
    Define life, please. And not just the biological one of being able to reproduce.
    Human life from the moment a foetus becomes a living, sentient being until death must be protected
    Sorry, but what is a 'living, sentient being'?

    The age at which a foetus became capable of independent life some years ago was less than now.
    And rightly so, the current time limit in the UK is well beyond the European average of 12 weeks let alone the 6 weeks Texas now has.

    If we get another Tory majority or there is a Tory government supported by the DUP, I would hope the abortion time limit could be reduced to 12-14 weeks from pregnancy at least
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Not giving up:

    Australia may buy French nuclear submarines. They will be twice cheaper than the Americans.

    https://twitter.com/GerardAraud/status/1438776084250734594?s=20

    Be a real laugh if the French poke US and their lapdog in the eye , can only hope it goes that way.
    The AUKUS deal probably means jobs in Scotland given what we'll be exporting.

    But you don't care about that do you? You'd rather harm the Scottish economy than see Britain succeed. Truly cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
    Can you say precisely what these jobs in Scotland will be, just so I can see the size of the nose we’d be cutting off?

    Nice change to have Brits suggesting benefits if we stay rather than threatening econogeddon if we leave though. Normal service will be resumed shortly no doubt.
    UK subs are built in Barrow. No guarantee that the Aussie subs will be built in the UK (unless ofr course they are from the existing MoD order for the RN, as DA sapiently suggested might be the case: edit: would then be to no net benefit for anyone south or north of the border).

    Edit: can't think offhand of any bits of specialist kit made in Scotland, except certain hydraulics.
    The option that was pointed out to me by my old mate (a sundodger of long pedigree) on FB last night was the RAN give up on the Collins and do an interim purchase of license built German Type 214 (a much smaller, cheaper and simpler boat which needs a small crew) while they wait to be ushered into their bright new nuclear anglophone future. The RAN flirted with this option in about 2014/5 so it wouldn't be a surprise and would make a lot of financial sense. It also keeps the yard busy until the SSN design is finalised (2030?) which is politically very important.
    Thanks. I see the Indonesians and Koreans have Typ 214s too. Historically at least diesel boats also have been quieter than nukes but no idea if that is the case now.
    Not the newer ones, I think ?
    They have fully electric drive, and can run off batteries, with the reactor run at very low power, when they want to be really quiet.
    No in service design uses an electric motor for final propulsion - though the next generation US/UK boats may well do.

    The big innovation was the American reactor design that allows for moderately high power using natural convection only. So the reactor pumps, which are one of the noisiest things, can be switched off for speeds below 20 knots or so,

    This combined with pumpjet technology was why the US Navy spoke of the Seawolf class being quieter at 20 knots than the Improved Los Angeles at 5 knots.
  • There is no doubt that AUKUS has come as a bitter blow to France and the EU

    The Guardian this morning headline was the UK and US face backlash amid fears pact could provoke China

    Reading the article they named France and China, and squeezed in Theresa May's comments, but did not say how it had been welcomed by the HoC, Japan, South Korea, India and across the Trans Pacific and even from some EU states.

    This morning calls from the Dutch to involve the UK in close cooperation with the EU on defence and security is welcome

    Is it too much to hope a new attitude to Brexit could also be forthcoming, because longer term the CPTPP is the place for world trade and that includes the EU joining alongside UK and US, who are reopening talks since the announcement of AUKUS

    It's been an unmitigated disaster. I can't think of a time when the western democracies were riven with such mistrust and acrimony. From the US perspective - if the debacle in Afghanistan wasn't enough - it's proven that Biden is either senile and/or being advised by numpties. As for Boris - we all know he's a shallow buffoon, but this episode has stamped that with globally tragic consequences.
    I am sorry I just do not agree

    However if you see the EU as the be all end all it will leave a bitter taste for some, though it has been welcomed by quite a few EU countries
    What I see as the be all and end all is unity amongst the western democracies. You obviously rather relish the division because it helps Boris.
    It is clear AUKUS has wide support not just here but across the world and in the EU

    France will contribute as well as Canada and others, but of course not in the tripartite agreement because by the nature of nuclear powered subs this is held solely by the UK US in the construction of their subs

    It has nothing to do with Boris though he has had a good week

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343

    There is no doubt that AUKUS has come as a bitter blow to France and the EU

    The Guardian this morning headline was the UK and US face backlash amid fears pact could provoke China

    Reading the article they named France and China, and squeezed in Theresa May's comments, but did not say how it had been welcomed by the HoC, Japan, South Korea, India and across the Trans Pacific and even from some EU states.

    This morning calls from the Dutch to involve the UK in close cooperation with the EU on defence and security is welcome

    Is it too much to hope a new attitude to Brexit could also be forthcoming, because longer term the CPTPP is the place for world trade and that includes the EU joining alongside UK and US, who are reopening talks since the announcement of AUKUS

    It's been an unmitigated disaster. I can't think of a time when the western democracies were riven with such mistrust and acrimony. From the US perspective - if the debacle in Afghanistan wasn't enough - it's proven that Biden is either senile and/or being advised by numpties. As for Boris - we all know he's a shallow buffoon, but this episode has stamped that with globally tragic consequences.
    I am sorry I just do not agree

    However if you see the EU as the be all end all it will leave a bitter taste for some, though it has been welcomed by quite a few EU countries
    What I see as the be all and end all is unity amongst the western democracies. You obviously rather relish the division because it helps Boris.
    An EU run by and for grown ups might have thought that the trappings of statehood and unity such as a common currency should follow, not precede, the trappings of statehood and unity such as a common defence policy, ie membership of NATO.

    What on earth happens if state X attacks Estonia, and the UK among others rush to its defence while Ireland (among other EU nations) stands idly by?

  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,257
    edited September 2021

    I know a woman who desperately wanted to be a mother and who had an abortion that was absolutely heartbreaking for her, but she felt she needed it. She carries an extremely rare gene that is fatal to all males if they're born with it. Her brother died a horrible and painful death at 12 year old and medicine hasn't progressed for that disorder, she said she couldn't bring a child into the world only to suffer like that.

    First pregnancy had tests and showed the foetus was male. So had further tests and showed it had the gene so she an abortion and was absolutely heartbroken for months even though she knew in her mind she had done the right thing.

    Next child was female (so safe, gene doesn't affect women) and second and final pregnancy male but without the gene.

    The Texan law not only prohibits people from getting an abortion from before the point they could realise they're pregnant, it also prohibits all testing and screening.

    Out of interest (as these types of conditions are my research field) do you happen to know the condition?

    On screening, an effect has been a reduction in babies born with many of the more severe genetic congenital conditions and also some that are more borderline. A range of interesting ethical questions there (easier for the conditions that imply death in days or weeks or even pre-birth; much more grey area for some others, particularly as therapies improve). Horrible decision for anyone to have to make.

    As others have noted, there is a male/female divide here - many more men/boys with these conditions where the defective gene is on the X chromosome and there's no equivalent on Y (so only the mother needs to be a carrier).

    Edit to add: My work also brings me into contact with a number of these children and their families. There are some who will die most likely in their late teens or twenties who nonetheless are having meaningfull and fulfilling lives, others where it is much harder to make a judgement on their quality of life. If I ever found myself in that position - finding out about a serious condition pre-birth - I really don't know what I would do.
  • Guess which scientists?

    Ah, so a political pressure group is openly paying particular scientists to give their "hot takes" on Covid. No conflicts of interests there whatsoever. Entirely good practice. Certainly explains a lot...

    https://twitter.com/GeorgiaLadbury/status/1438802675424972803?s=20
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    That is a question much discussed in Special Care Baby Units when I had to do which things. I know I 'helped', in a small way, to 'save' a very premature baby, who never developed fully, and is now a somewhat 'challenged' adult.
    So still a living, sentient being then
    Where do you put quality of life? I know the grandparents and I know the lad's condition has been a source of considerable worry and concern to his parents and to at least one set of grandparents.
    I believe in life, full stop.
    Define life, please. And not just the biological one of being able to reproduce.
    Human life from the moment a foetus becomes a living, sentient being until death must be protected
    What is your definition of a living, sentient being?
  • Guess which scientists?

    Ah, so a political pressure group is openly paying particular scientists to give their "hot takes" on Covid. No conflicts of interests there whatsoever. Entirely good practice. Certainly explains a lot...

    https://twitter.com/GeorgiaLadbury/status/1438802675424972803?s=20


    Meaghan Kall
    @kallmemeg
    ·
    11m
    Replying to
    @GeorgiaLadbury
    🤨 explains why certain people are able to do Twitter & BMJ blogs as a full time job
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620

    MaxPB said:

    There is no doubt that AUKUS has come as a bitter blow to France and the EU

    The Guardian this morning headline was the UK and US face backlash amid fears pact could provoke China

    Reading the article they named France and China, and squeezed in Theresa May's comments, but did not say how it had been welcomed by the HoC, Japan, South Korea, India and across the Trans Pacific and even from some EU states.

    This morning calls from the Dutch to involve the UK in close cooperation with the EU on defence and security is welcome

    Is it too much to hope a new attitude to Brexit could also be forthcoming, because longer term the CPTPP is the place for world trade and that includes the EU joining alongside UK and US, who are reopening talks since the announcement of AUKUS

    It's been an unmitigated disaster. I can't think of a time when the western democracies were riven with such mistrust and acrimony. From the US perspective - if the debacle in Afghanistan wasn't enough - it's proven that Biden is either senile and/or being advised by numpties. As for Boris - we all know he's a shallow buffoon, but this episode has stamped that with globally tragic consequences.
    You see it that way because it's your precious EU that is being sidelined. If it was FRAUS instead of AUKUS your reaction would be the opposite. Your partisanship and weird EU nationalism are beyond parody.
    No, I don't want to see the EU sidelined. But nor would I want to see America or Australia sidelined in a different scenario. Unity amongst the democracies of the world is vital. Expand your moral horizons - there are things more important than one-upmanship over Brexit.
    The problem is that, for example, German foreign policy is to placate at nearly any cost Russia and China. The announced structure came about precisely because the EU policy on Ukraine, Russia and China has to accommodate German foreign policy.

    Unity is nice, but the question has to be asked - unity at what price?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    That is a question much discussed in Special Care Baby Units when I had to do which things. I know I 'helped', in a small way, to 'save' a very premature baby, who never developed fully, and is now a somewhat 'challenged' adult.
    So still a living, sentient being then
    Where do you put quality of life? I know the grandparents and I know the lad's condition has been a source of considerable worry and concern to his parents and to at least one set of grandparents.
    I believe in life, full stop.
    Define life, please. And not just the biological one of being able to reproduce.
    Human life from the moment a foetus becomes a living, sentient being until death must be protected
    Would you bother with a 12 week scan ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574

    Nigelb said:

    .

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.
    It wasn't really the constitution, the last few weeks were basically a coup d'etat where the military and everyone else just decided that Trump might technically be president but they were just going to ignore him.
    In what way was it a coup ?
    Please give instances, as unless valid executive orders were refused, that’s simply wrong.
    OK that's fair, I'm full of shit.

    What we do have is generals assuring everybody that Trump won't be able to do things; Pelosi seems to have been told Trump wouldn't be in control of nuclear weapons, the Chinese were told, "If we decide to go to war with you I'll let you know in advance", the Afghans seem to have been told that they'd slow-walk Trump's attempt to immediately withdraw from Afghanistan (that at one point he signed an order for). But the last days seem to have just been total pandemonium, so Trump didn't manage to give clear enough orders about anything mad that they had to overtly disobey.
    That’s not how I understood it.
    On Milley and nuclear weapons, it seems that he instructed the military that they must, whatever happens, consult him before taking any action. As it’s in law that the Chair of the Joint Chiefs be consulted before use of nuclear weapons, that was an entirely appropriate instruction.

    And it is, of course, only Congress which has the power to declare war.
    The scope of executive authority in taking military action in not entirely clear cut, so it is not illegal for generals to delay - though the President of course has the power to sack them. (And their oath is to the Constitution, so they are entitled to refuse to obey an illegal order.)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    That is a question much discussed in Special Care Baby Units when I had to do which things. I know I 'helped', in a small way, to 'save' a very premature baby, who never developed fully, and is now a somewhat 'challenged' adult.
    So still a living, sentient being then
    Where do you put quality of life? I know the grandparents and I know the lad's condition has been a source of considerable worry and concern to his parents and to at least one set of grandparents.
    I believe in life, full stop.
    Define life, please. And not just the biological one of being able to reproduce.
    Human life from the moment a foetus becomes a living, sentient being until death must be protected
    Sorry, but what is a 'living, sentient being'?

    The age at which a foetus became capable of independent life some years ago was less than now.
    And rightly so, the current time limit in the UK is well beyond the European average of 12 weeks let alone the 6 weeks Texas now has.

    If we get another Tory majority or there is a Tory government supported by the DUP, I would hope the abortion time limit could be reduced to 12-14 weeks from pregnancy at least
    You are, seriously, trying to create a situation where a woman doesn't realise she is pregnant before the cut-off time after which she cannot get an abortion.
  • Pulpstar said:

    FFS.



    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford
    Exclusive:

    Both Dom Raab and Liz Truss have staked a claim to Chevening, a 115-room grace & favour residence in Kent

    Chevening traditionally goes to foreign secretary, but Nick Clegg shared it with William Hague when he was DPM

    Boris Johnson will have to decide who gets it

    It's absolutely enormous, can't they share it ?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevening#/media/File:Chevening.jpg
    There's precedent for that;

    Boris Johnson, Liam Fox and David Davis share Chevening
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36826327

    And they said that TMay didn't have a sense of humour...
  • Pulpstar said:

    FFS.



    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford
    Exclusive:

    Both Dom Raab and Liz Truss have staked a claim to Chevening, a 115-room grace & favour residence in Kent

    Chevening traditionally goes to foreign secretary, but Nick Clegg shared it with William Hague when he was DPM

    Boris Johnson will have to decide who gets it

    It's absolubtely enormous, can't they share it ?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevening#/media/File:Chevening.jpg
    As well as a Cabinet Minister (normally but not necessarily the Foreign Sec), the PM can also nominate any lineal descendent of George VI or their spouse or widow/widower to use Chevening as a private home. So Johnson could insist on it being Mike Tindall.

    He could also refuse to nominate anyone, in which case I understand it's a bit of a bun fight between the Canadian High Commissioner, the US Ambassador, and the National Trust. Which would be a bit of fun.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    That is a question much discussed in Special Care Baby Units when I had to do which things. I know I 'helped', in a small way, to 'save' a very premature baby, who never developed fully, and is now a somewhat 'challenged' adult.
    So still a living, sentient being then
    Where do you put quality of life? I know the grandparents and I know the lad's condition has been a source of considerable worry and concern to his parents and to at least one set of grandparents.
    I believe in life, full stop.
    Define life, please. And not just the biological one of being able to reproduce.
    Human life from the moment a foetus becomes a living, sentient being until death must be protected
    Sorry, but what is a 'living, sentient being'?

    The age at which a foetus became capable of independent life some years ago was less than now.
    And rightly so, the current time limit in the UK is well beyond the European average of 12 weeks let alone the 6 weeks Texas now has.

    If we get another Tory majority or there is a Tory government supported by the DUP, I would hope the abortion time limit could be reduced to 12-14 weeks from pregnancy at least
    You are, seriously, trying to create a situation where a woman doesn't realise she is pregnant before the cut-off time after which she cannot get an abortion.
    I certainly think reducing the abortion time lime to 12 weeks at least as is the average across most of Europe, including in Ireland, should be a priority if we get another Tory majority after the next general election or enough seats to form a Tory government supported by the DUP
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    That is a question much discussed in Special Care Baby Units when I had to do which things. I know I 'helped', in a small way, to 'save' a very premature baby, who never developed fully, and is now a somewhat 'challenged' adult.
    So still a living, sentient being then
    Where do you put quality of life? I know the grandparents and I know the lad's condition has been a source of considerable worry and concern to his parents and to at least one set of grandparents.
    I believe in life, full stop.
    Bully for you and you would like to ram your beliefs down other people's throats.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,145

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    2020 Biden could run on not being Trump and that was enough. 2024 Biden will have to run on his record in office. Also his brain is clearly a piece of shit now so by 2024 you might as well have a cantaloupe with a hair transplant and Ray-Bans.

    As Trump will be in jail, that will ensure the field is clear.

    And, TBH, a very good thing, too.
    No chance Trump will be in jail.

    Even if he's guilty, no Jury will be 12 Democrats (and if it were that'd be grounds for appeal surely). And no MAGA is going to convict.

    As Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it.
    Even as a non American I find the inability to hold him to account for his attempted coup in January deeply troubling.

    The American democratic system is broken and becoming more so. The Republicans claiming fraud in the recall election in California before the votes had even been counted was another sign. One of the major parties in the US is no longer signed up to democratic norms. If they lose they have been cheated even in a deep blue state such as California. There is no acceptance of democratic outcomes. This is not a stable situation and Trump is largely, if not exclusively, responsible.

    Yep - the US is in a very, very bad place. It is hard to see how things don't get worse there.

    Yep.

    There is going to eye popping levels of trouble at next POTUS election.

    The fabled constitution just about managed to keep Trump in check and eventually out of office without too much violence.

    I can't see it being able to cope a second time.

    Really sad to see a major democracy die like this through its own internal cancer.

    The Republican decision to upset the balance of the Supreme Court and to make it overtly partisan is the big problem.
    Would John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett rather have Donald Trump than a democracy though? They've already got the court, he didn't pass anything interesting to conservatives except tax cuts and everybody knows he's a menace, so what's in it for them?
    Roe vs Wade. Once you legalise abortion you can then follow the Texas lead and make a woman's body legal sport for men. Once you do that it isn't that far until women's rights really get rolled back. And if we're doing women that way think what will happen to gays, latinos, blacks?
    There are plenty of pro life blacks and latinos and plenty of pro life women too and even some pro life gays.

    Texas is also one of the few states, mainly southern, where a majority of voters think abortion should be illegal, so if it becomes more restricted there that is partly a reflection of states rights

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    "States Rights" exist within a constitutional framework - or should do. A state should not have the right to bring back racial segregation, slavery or in this case the middle ages. Their "shop a slag" law makes women sport for predatory "men".
    I would have thought abortion on demand is far more likely to do make women sport for predatory men who can have sex without consequence or risk of her getting pregnant.

    Restricting abortion to the first 6 weeks of pregnancy is also hardly the middle ages nor is it slavery. Personally I would leave it a little longer and restrict it after 15-20 weeks rather than the 24 we now have in the UK but Texas can make its own mind up
    You're batshit crazy.

    Pregnancy tests won't reveal a pregnancy until 4 or 5 weeks in. Many women won't realise they're pregnant until past the six week mark!

    Heck the moment of conception is about two weeks in. In week one "of a pregnancy" the woman isn't even pregnant yet since the clock starts at last period, not at moment of conception.

    So you're really talking maybe one week of eligibility. If you're lucky. Zero for many women.
    Given 50% of Texans want to make abortion completely illegal to only 45% who want it legal, pro choice activists are lucky to even get 6 weeks there
    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-abortion/by/state/
    And if 50% of Texans wanted blacks to be 2/3rds of a person and enslaved?

    Women aren't lucky to control their own bodies, it's their human rights.
    The unborn child also has rights, precisely the opposite of slavery
    No, they don't. The woman has rights, the foetus has rights when it draws it is born and draws its first breath.
    Yes they do and certainly the foetus becomes a living, sentient being well before birth. The only question is what time it does
    That is a question much discussed in Special Care Baby Units when I had to do which things. I know I 'helped', in a small way, to 'save' a very premature baby, who never developed fully, and is now a somewhat 'challenged' adult.
    So still a living, sentient being then
    Where do you put quality of life? I know the grandparents and I know the lad's condition has been a source of considerable worry and concern to his parents and to at least one set of grandparents.
    I believe in life, full stop.
    Define life, please. And not just the biological one of being able to reproduce.
    Human life from the moment a foetus becomes a living, sentient being until death must be protected
    Sorry, but what is a 'living, sentient being'?

    The age at which a foetus became capable of independent life some years ago was less than now.
    And rightly so, the current time limit in the UK is well beyond the European average of 12 weeks let alone the 6 weeks Texas now has.

    If we get another Tory majority or there is a Tory government supported by the DUP, I would hope the abortion time limit could be reduced to 12-14 weeks from pregnancy at least
    You are, seriously, trying to create a situation where a woman doesn't realise she is pregnant before the cut-off time after which she cannot get an abortion.
    Moving the goalposts to get the result you want by subterfuge is a political strategy of long, but not necessarily legitimate, pedigree - as one might put it in this context.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,836
    Pulpstar said:

    FFS.



    Steven Swinford
    @Steven_Swinford
    Exclusive:

    Both Dom Raab and Liz Truss have staked a claim to Chevening, a 115-room grace & favour residence in Kent

    Chevening traditionally goes to foreign secretary, but Nick Clegg shared it with William Hague when he was DPM

    Boris Johnson will have to decide who gets it

    It's absolubtely enormous, can't they share it ?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevening#/media/File:Chevening.jpg
    The SE needs to take its share of Afghan refugees too. Ample space.
  • Wonder how Labour will handle this?

    Inside Housing:

    Cladding systems failed government-commissioned fire tests in 2004, leaked document reveals

    https://insidehousing.co.uk/news/cladding-systems-failed-government-commissioned-fire-tests-in-2004-leaked-document-reveals-72558
    https://twitter.com/BBCTomSymonds/status/1438810645315600389?s=20
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574

    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Not giving up:

    Australia may buy French nuclear submarines. They will be twice cheaper than the Americans.

    https://twitter.com/GerardAraud/status/1438776084250734594?s=20

    Be a real laugh if the French poke US and their lapdog in the eye , can only hope it goes that way.
    The AUKUS deal probably means jobs in Scotland given what we'll be exporting.

    But you don't care about that do you? You'd rather harm the Scottish economy than see Britain succeed. Truly cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
    Can you say precisely what these jobs in Scotland will be, just so I can see the size of the nose we’d be cutting off?

    Nice change to have Brits suggesting benefits if we stay rather than threatening econogeddon if we leave though. Normal service will be resumed shortly no doubt.
    UK subs are built in Barrow. No guarantee that the Aussie subs will be built in the UK (unless ofr course they are from the existing MoD order for the RN, as DA sapiently suggested might be the case: edit: would then be to no net benefit for anyone south or north of the border).

    Edit: can't think offhand of any bits of specialist kit made in Scotland, except certain hydraulics.
    The option that was pointed out to me by my old mate (a sundodger of long pedigree) on FB last night was the RAN give up on the Collins and do an interim purchase of license built German Type 214 (a much smaller, cheaper and simpler boat which needs a small crew) while they wait to be ushered into their bright new nuclear anglophone future. The RAN flirted with this option in about 2014/5 so it wouldn't be a surprise and would make a lot of financial sense. It also keeps the yard busy until the SSN design is finalised (2030?) which is politically very important.
    Thanks. I see the Indonesians and Koreans have Typ 214s too. Historically at least diesel boats also have been quieter than nukes but no idea if that is the case now.
    Not the newer ones, I think ?
    They have fully electric drive, and can run off batteries, with the reactor run at very low power, when they want to be really quiet.
    No in service design uses an electric motor for final propulsion - though the next generation US/UK boats may well do.

    The big innovation was the American reactor design that allows for moderately high power using natural convection only. So the reactor pumps, which are one of the noisiest things, can be switched off for speeds below 20 knots or so,

    This combined with pumpjet technology was why the US Navy spoke of the Seawolf class being quieter at 20 knots than the Improved Los Angeles at 5 knots.
    The Chinese and French (certainly the new Barracuda class) boats do, I think.
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