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As we approach the twentieth anniversary of 9/11 – politicalbetting.com

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  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,589
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    I was at school, we got called in for a special assembly and then got sent home.

    BTW thank you for your apology on the previous thread. Very gentlemanly of you.

    I do not wish to enrage you further on the topic but these proposals will hurt Daughter in multiple ways: on her income, on that of her staff and then on her business. Plus the increase in corporation tax as well. It feels like another hammer blow - on top of the last year and a half, especially after all the hard work she has put in and is continuing to put in to keep her business going.

    It may not be the next Google I realise but three points (1) She has created jobs - and in an area where these are not plentiful; (2) she has learnt a lot about business; and (3) this is only the start of her business career. And the stamp duty holiday has pushed up the price of houses round here too - which worsens her chances of finding somewhere to buy. All this after a time when her social life - even during lockdown - has been put on hold.

    Which political party is on the side of her and millions like her?
    Reform UK - although she'll also be required to sign up to the sinking of migrant boats in the Channel.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,501
    Apologies if this has been posted. But this really confirms the worst about today's pensioners. Millenials take a breath before reading.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/10/pensioners-governments-tax-triple-lock-pensions-rise-national-insurance
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,069

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tres said:

    I was in my first proper job after graduating, and that day all the management were offsite at a planning event.
    After the first plane hit one of my friends got a call from his mum (like SE) saying what had just happened and so a group of us went into the main meeting room which had a tv and saw the second plane hit shortly afterwards.

    By contrast I was in my room packing up to go to uni.
    Sometimes reading these posts make me feel OLD.
    Sheer nonsense, Your Majesty.
    They certainly make me feel old, and actually how quite young to us oldies our colleagues on here are
    You ain't old, old bean. Are you going to call the world whippersnapper?

    South Wales beckons.
    I actually am quite enjoying reading colleagues recollection of that dreadful day

    For all our differences we are an excellent and unique discussion forum
    I'm missing a few of the old regulars though: Bluest Blue, Peter the Punter, Ave It and even MysticRose (though she was irritating). And @Barnesian hasn't posted for a while.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,390

    Princess Diana died on August Bank Holiday. I went downstairs to make coffees for Mrs C & myself, turned on the TV and saw what had happened.
    Back upstairs with the coffees and we watched the situation develop on the bedroom TV.

    Diana died the morning of the Sunday of the bank holiday weekend, not the bank holiday itself. (Next year it will be 25 years. Now where did that time go?)

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,578

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    IanB2 said:

    Two decades of not being able to take liquids onto a plane, confiscated jam, and the rest. And for what?

    Slimmer waistlines?
    The liquids business is from 2006 isn’t it? When John Reid parked a load of tanks in front of airports for reasons that remain obscure.
    I presumed it was richard reid the shoe bomber that led to the liquids ban but cant remember what his bomb consisted of.
    That was different, in 2001 - the chap who meant we had to take off our shoes.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,319
    I see Biden is going large on vaccine mandates.

    A bold call by him but you can see the arguement about how opposing it will blow up in the GOPs face.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,494
    Cyclefree said:

    Princess Diana's death was an odd one for me. I'd been clubbing in Cambridge, and got a taxi back in the early hours. The taxi driver told me that Princess Diana had been injured in a car crash. When I got back to my digs, I turned on the TV and (from memory) there was nothing about it on (*): it was annoying, and something that we wouldn't dream of in the modern 24-hour news cycle. I stayed up, and after a while it appeared on the BBC, saying she'd been injured. I guess at that stage they knew she'd died, and were just waiting for confirmation.

    People's reactions were very odd. I am generally a royalist, and whilst I thought it was sad, it didn't really affect me deeply. My then-GF's dad was German, and a vehement republican; he apparently cried his eyes out.

    (*) I've just checked, and the BBC News 24 channel started a couple of months after her death.

    That was the day I learnt I was pregnant with one of my children. I woke early, wondered why the World Service was doing a documentary about Diana, went to do the test and it was only later that I learnt about the accident. Much more interested in my news TBH.

    I found the whole candles and votive offerings that week a huge overreaction. It was as if Britain had rediscovered its inner Catholicism. Reminiscent of nothing so much as those shrines to the Madonna you see all over Southern Italy.
    I didn't feel it, thought the reaction OTT, but I think I can understand it. She was top royalty - a public figure of great standing - plus at the same time a young and glamorous, A* list modern world celebrity. So a JFK type event.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,578
    Stocky said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tres said:

    I was in my first proper job after graduating, and that day all the management were offsite at a planning event.
    After the first plane hit one of my friends got a call from his mum (like SE) saying what had just happened and so a group of us went into the main meeting room which had a tv and saw the second plane hit shortly afterwards.

    By contrast I was in my room packing up to go to uni.
    Sometimes reading these posts make me feel OLD.
    Sheer nonsense, Your Majesty.
    They certainly make me feel old, and actually how quite young to us oldies our colleagues on here are
    You ain't old, old bean. Are you going to call the world whippersnapper?

    South Wales beckons.
    I actually am quite enjoying reading colleagues recollection of that dreadful day

    For all our differences we are an excellent and unique discussion forum
    I'm missing a few of the old regulars though: Bluest Blue, Peter the Punter, Ave It and even MysticRose (though she was irritating). And @Barnesian hasn't posted for a while.
    I hope it does not mean that we need an obituary wall. At least one of us has made provision for his executors to notify us (I think I remember who, but won't risk it as it might be tactless if I get it wrong!).
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,307
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tres said:

    I was in my first proper job after graduating, and that day all the management were offsite at a planning event.
    After the first plane hit one of my friends got a call from his mum (like SE) saying what had just happened and so a group of us went into the main meeting room which had a tv and saw the second plane hit shortly afterwards.

    By contrast I was in my room packing up to go to uni.
    Sometimes reading these posts make me feel OLD.
    Sheer nonsense, Your Majesty.
    They certainly make me feel old, and actually how quite young to us oldies our colleagues on here are
    You ain't old, old bean. Are you going to call the world whippersnapper?

    South Wales beckons.
    I actually am quite enjoying reading colleagues recollection of that dreadful day

    For all our differences we are an excellent and unique discussion forum
    Good place this PB :)

    Well done @MikeSmithson. A bit well done @rcs1000.. Reluctantly well done @TSE.
    Think how much better it would be if only someone would drown anyone trying to get in.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,390
    dixiedean said:

    Apologies if this has been posted. But this really confirms the worst about today's pensioners. Millenials take a breath before reading.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/10/pensioners-governments-tax-triple-lock-pensions-rise-national-insurance

    4 pensioners to be exact. This working pensioner supports the millennials. I must practice shouting "Not in my name" through a megaphone.

  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,001
    dixiedean said:

    Apologies if this has been posted. But this really confirms the worst about today's pensioners. Millenials take a breath before reading.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/10/pensioners-governments-tax-triple-lock-pensions-rise-national-insurance

    I really don't think you can conclude that interviews with 4 pensioners "confirms the worst about today's pensioners", can you? As subsamples go, that's a particularly small one.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,222
    Farooq said:

    Twenty years ago

    Agent (whispering): "Mr President, sir, America is under attack"
    Bush (holding a children's book upside down): "I know"

    Was it really upside down? If so I share something in common with Bush: I can read a book that is upside down perfectly well (depending on the typeface used; some serif fonts are more difficult).

    My cousin can do it as well; my brother and sister cannot. Mrs J cannot. It's not something I've practiced, just something I can do for some reason.

    A real Zeroes skill.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9ewB6iUhAY
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,701
    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    Apologies if this has been posted. But this really confirms the worst about today's pensioners. Millenials take a breath before reading.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/10/pensioners-governments-tax-triple-lock-pensions-rise-national-insurance

    So, just to be clear;

    They’ve invented a new tax, to pay for things it won’t cover, to be levied on the working poor to fund the comfortable retired, pissing off the working poor and failing to achieve anything;

    AND HAVE STILL NOT PLEASED PENSIONERS.

    So in every possible way this policy is an abject failure.
    To be fair the extension of NI to cover working pensioners is quite a large tax increase, and working pensioners are very overrepresented in this piece. One of the other two has also failed to appreciate that pensions will still be going up by 3%.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,578
    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Princess Diana's death was an odd one for me. I'd been clubbing in Cambridge, and got a taxi back in the early hours. The taxi driver told me that Princess Diana had been injured in a car crash. When I got back to my digs, I turned on the TV and (from memory) there was nothing about it on (*): it was annoying, and something that we wouldn't dream of in the modern 24-hour news cycle. I stayed up, and after a while it appeared on the BBC, saying she'd been injured. I guess at that stage they knew she'd died, and were just waiting for confirmation.

    People's reactions were very odd. I am generally a royalist, and whilst I thought it was sad, it didn't really affect me deeply. My then-GF's dad was German, and a vehement republican; he apparently cried his eyes out.

    (*) I've just checked, and the BBC News 24 channel started a couple of months after her death.

    That was the day I learnt I was pregnant with one of my children. I woke early, wondered why the World Service was doing a documentary about Diana, went to do the test and it was only later that I learnt about the accident. Much more interested in my news TBH.

    I found the whole candles and votive offerings that week a huge overreaction. It was as if Britain had rediscovered its inner Catholicism. Reminiscent of nothing so much as those shrines to the Madonna you see all over Southern Italy.
    I didn't feel it, thought the reaction OTT, but I think I can understand it. She was top royalty - a public figure of great standing - plus at the same time a young and glamorous, A* list modern world celebrity. So a JFK type event.
    The reaction was much weaker in Scotland, for some reason. Personally the incomprehensible hysteria frightened me. I had to be warned to be careful what i said in public as I was down in England that week.
  • ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    Apologies if this has been posted. But this really confirms the worst about today's pensioners. Millenials take a breath before reading.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/10/pensioners-governments-tax-triple-lock-pensions-rise-national-insurance

    So, just to be clear;

    They’ve invented a new tax, to pay for things it won’t cover, to be levied on the working poor to fund the comfortable retired, pissing off the working poor and failing to achieve anything;

    AND HAVE STILL NOT PLEASED PENSIONERS.

    So in every possible way this policy is an abject failure.
    Remember.

    Boris Johnson isn't very good at government. He's good at many things, but not government.

    And the corollary of his defiance of gravity thus far is that his fall, when it comes (it might not be this) has the potential to be spectacular.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,578

    Farooq said:

    Twenty years ago

    Agent (whispering): "Mr President, sir, America is under attack"
    Bush (holding a children's book upside down): "I know"

    Was it really upside down? If so I share something in common with Bush: I can read a book that is upside down perfectly well (depending on the typeface used; some serif fonts are more difficult).

    My cousin can do it as well; my brother and sister cannot. Mrs J cannot. It's not something I've practiced, just something I can do for some reason.

    A real Zeroes skill.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9ewB6iUhAY
    Me too - very useful during staff assessment meetings etc.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,501
    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    Apologies if this has been posted. But this really confirms the worst about today's pensioners. Millenials take a breath before reading.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/10/pensioners-governments-tax-triple-lock-pensions-rise-national-insurance

    So, just to be clear;

    They’ve invented a new tax, to pay for things it won’t cover, to be levied on the working poor to fund the comfortable retired, pissing off the working poor and failing to achieve anything;

    AND HAVE STILL NOT PLEASED PENSIONERS.

    So in every possible way this policy is an abject failure.
    You're wrong. If this forum is owt to go by, they've pissed off the working non-poor mightily as well...
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 6,498
    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    Apologies if this has been posted. But this really confirms the worst about today's pensioners. Millenials take a breath before reading.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/10/pensioners-governments-tax-triple-lock-pensions-rise-national-insurance

    So, just to be clear;

    They’ve invented a new tax, to pay for things it won’t cover, to be levied on the working poor to fund the comfortable retired, pissing off the working poor and failing to achieve anything;

    AND HAVE STILL NOT PLEASED PENSIONERS.

    So in every possible way this policy is an abject failure.
    Do list every possible way and quite how this is a failure. I'm looking forwards to all of the things involving ducks.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,001
    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Princess Diana's death was an odd one for me. I'd been clubbing in Cambridge, and got a taxi back in the early hours. The taxi driver told me that Princess Diana had been injured in a car crash. When I got back to my digs, I turned on the TV and (from memory) there was nothing about it on (*): it was annoying, and something that we wouldn't dream of in the modern 24-hour news cycle. I stayed up, and after a while it appeared on the BBC, saying she'd been injured. I guess at that stage they knew she'd died, and were just waiting for confirmation.

    People's reactions were very odd. I am generally a royalist, and whilst I thought it was sad, it didn't really affect me deeply. My then-GF's dad was German, and a vehement republican; he apparently cried his eyes out.

    (*) I've just checked, and the BBC News 24 channel started a couple of months after her death.

    That was the day I learnt I was pregnant with one of my children. I woke early, wondered why the World Service was doing a documentary about Diana, went to do the test and it was only later that I learnt about the accident. Much more interested in my news TBH.

    I found the whole candles and votive offerings that week a huge overreaction. It was as if Britain had rediscovered its inner Catholicism. Reminiscent of nothing so much as those shrines to the Madonna you see all over Southern Italy.
    I didn't feel it, thought the reaction OTT, but I think I can understand it. She was top royalty - a public figure of great standing - plus at the same time a young and glamorous, A* list modern world celebrity. So a JFK type event.
    The People's Princess, even. Almost as good a slogan as Get Brexit Done.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,589
    Cyclefree said:

    Princess Diana's death was an odd one for me. I'd been clubbing in Cambridge, and got a taxi back in the early hours. The taxi driver told me that Princess Diana had been injured in a car crash. When I got back to my digs, I turned on the TV and (from memory) there was nothing about it on (*): it was annoying, and something that we wouldn't dream of in the modern 24-hour news cycle. I stayed up, and after a while it appeared on the BBC, saying she'd been injured. I guess at that stage they knew she'd died, and were just waiting for confirmation.

    People's reactions were very odd. I am generally a royalist, and whilst I thought it was sad, it didn't really affect me deeply. My then-GF's dad was German, and a vehement republican; he apparently cried his eyes out.

    (*) I've just checked, and the BBC News 24 channel started a couple of months after her death.

    That was the day I learnt I was pregnant with one of my children. I woke early, wondered why the World Service was doing a documentary about Diana, went to do the test and it was only later that I learnt about the accident. Much more interested in my news TBH.

    I found the whole candles and votive offerings that week a huge overreaction. It was as if Britain had rediscovered its inner Catholicism. Reminiscent of nothing so much as those shrines to the Madonna you see all over Southern Italy.
    I used to set my alarm to wake me with the Sunday rerun of Week Ending on Radio 4.

    For the first five minutes or so, I thought the whole thing was an elaborate spoof of media overreactions.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,069
    edited September 10
    dixiedean said:

    Apologies if this has been posted. But this really confirms the worst about today's pensioners. Millenials take a breath before reading.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/10/pensioners-governments-tax-triple-lock-pensions-rise-national-insurance

    OK - I read it.

    "Designed to pay for the NHS and social care, the tax overhaul will result in about 1.3 million working pensioners over the age of 65 paying national insurance (NI) contributions on their earnings for the first time.

    For those earning over the threshold when NI kicks in – currently £9,568 a year – there will be a 1.25 percentage point levy on earnings over that sum."

    Terry (68) from Amesbury think it’s a cheek to take further NI contributions from him, especially when it means he won’t be getting more pension... Err - even though he will be getting more pension.

    Meanwhile, Pauline (67) from Oxford said that the suspension of the triple lock and the requirement to pay NI again makes her feel as if she has “fallen through the cracks in the system”.

    So a pensioner getting, say, £10k state pension + £10k private pension + £19,568 earned income will be liable for 1.25% levy on £10k of the earned income = £125?

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,222
    A couple of questions on pensioners and the pension:

    1) What are the average and median total incomes of pensioners?
    2) What percentage of pensioners live in poverty?

    I know the issue is much more complex than just those two questions, but I'd like to know the answers and my Google-fu has somewhat failed me. TIA.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,069
    Farooq said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tres said:

    I was in my first proper job after graduating, and that day all the management were offsite at a planning event.
    After the first plane hit one of my friends got a call from his mum (like SE) saying what had just happened and so a group of us went into the main meeting room which had a tv and saw the second plane hit shortly afterwards.

    By contrast I was in my room packing up to go to uni.
    Sometimes reading these posts make me feel OLD.
    Sheer nonsense, Your Majesty.
    They certainly make me feel old, and actually how quite young to us oldies our colleagues on here are
    You ain't old, old bean. Are you going to call the world whippersnapper?

    South Wales beckons.
    I actually am quite enjoying reading colleagues recollection of that dreadful day

    For all our differences we are an excellent and unique discussion forum
    Good place this PB :)

    Well done @MikeSmithson. A bit well done @rcs1000.. Reluctantly well done @TSE.
    Think how much better it would be if only someone would drown anyone trying to get in.
    WTF?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,501

    dixiedean said:

    Apologies if this has been posted. But this really confirms the worst about today's pensioners. Millenials take a breath before reading.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/10/pensioners-governments-tax-triple-lock-pensions-rise-national-insurance

    I really don't think you can conclude that interviews with 4 pensioners "confirms the worst about today's pensioners", can you? As subsamples go, that's a particularly small one.
    No. But it's the optics. There's plenty of stuff plenty of groups are stereotyped by from an extrapolation of a handful of the most egregious examples. That's the way it goes I'm afraid.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972
    I was in Mombasa in Kenya on an expedition with university.

    I remember cab driver after cab driver coming up to me (us) saying, "the US has been attacked! 50,000 dead! Going to declare war on everyone!"

    Understandably we were both concerned and suspicious it was a hustle. The reality of seeing the footage was far worse, and we were genuinely scared of what would happen next.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 7,199
    edited September 10
    Farooq said:

    Twenty years ago

    Agent (whispering): "Mr President, sir, America is under attack"
    Bush (holding a children's book upside down): "I know"

    Here's a weird thing. Shortly after 9/11 I chanced upon David Icke's website. Icke was fuming. He'd just seen a televised Q&A session involving George W Bush (at some school or college I think). The content of that session should have made world-wide news, but the media had suppressed it. The exchange went something like this.

    Questioner: Mr President, what were you doing when the Twin Towers were hit?

    Bush: Well, we were watching TV when the first plane hit. I've done some flying myself and I thought: Gee, he's not a very good pilot. But then we saw the second plane hit and we realized it was no accident.


    But what's weird is that Icke provided a link to the Whitehouse website, which had a transcript of that exchange exactly as he had described it. I've always wondered what happen there. Had the website been hacked? Had I been redirected to a fake site? Or was the transcript genuine?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,228
    edited September 10
    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    Apologies if this has been posted. But this really confirms the worst about today's pensioners. Millenials take a breath before reading.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/10/pensioners-governments-tax-triple-lock-pensions-rise-national-insurance

    So, just to be clear;

    They’ve invented a new tax, to pay for things it won’t cover, to be levied on the working poor to fund the comfortable retired, pissing off the working poor and failing to achieve anything;

    AND HAVE STILL NOT PLEASED PENSIONERS.

    So in every possible way this policy is an abject failure.
    Do list every possible way and quite how this is a failure. I'm looking forwards to all of the things involving ducks.
    Can we blame it for the abandonment up at Old Trafford? If so it saved England 20 ducks.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,894
    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Princess Diana's death was an odd one for me. I'd been clubbing in Cambridge, and got a taxi back in the early hours. The taxi driver told me that Princess Diana had been injured in a car crash. When I got back to my digs, I turned on the TV and (from memory) there was nothing about it on (*): it was annoying, and something that we wouldn't dream of in the modern 24-hour news cycle. I stayed up, and after a while it appeared on the BBC, saying she'd been injured. I guess at that stage they knew she'd died, and were just waiting for confirmation.

    People's reactions were very odd. I am generally a royalist, and whilst I thought it was sad, it didn't really affect me deeply. My then-GF's dad was German, and a vehement republican; he apparently cried his eyes out.

    (*) I've just checked, and the BBC News 24 channel started a couple of months after her death.

    That was the day I learnt I was pregnant with one of my children. I woke early, wondered why the World Service was doing a documentary about Diana, went to do the test and it was only later that I learnt about the accident. Much more interested in my news TBH.

    I found the whole candles and votive offerings that week a huge overreaction. It was as if Britain had rediscovered its inner Catholicism. Reminiscent of nothing so much as those shrines to the Madonna you see all over Southern Italy.
    I didn't feel it, thought the reaction OTT, but I think I can understand it. She was top royalty - a public figure of great standing - plus at the same time a young and glamorous, A* list modern world celebrity. So a JFK type event.
    Not a particular fan. I can understand the shock - but the reaction - and the way it fed on itself - was more interesting than the main event. Something banal about a car accident and she'd likely have survived if she'd worn a seatbelt.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,307
    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tres said:

    I was in my first proper job after graduating, and that day all the management were offsite at a planning event.
    After the first plane hit one of my friends got a call from his mum (like SE) saying what had just happened and so a group of us went into the main meeting room which had a tv and saw the second plane hit shortly afterwards.

    By contrast I was in my room packing up to go to uni.
    Sometimes reading these posts make me feel OLD.
    Sheer nonsense, Your Majesty.
    They certainly make me feel old, and actually how quite young to us oldies our colleagues on here are
    You ain't old, old bean. Are you going to call the world whippersnapper?

    South Wales beckons.
    I actually am quite enjoying reading colleagues recollection of that dreadful day

    For all our differences we are an excellent and unique discussion forum
    Good place this PB :)

    Well done @MikeSmithson. A bit well done @rcs1000.. Reluctantly well done @TSE.
    Think how much better it would be if only someone would drown anyone trying to get in.
    WTF?
    Scroll down and look for earlier comments from Omnium, if you want to understand the reference.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,069
    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tres said:

    I was in my first proper job after graduating, and that day all the management were offsite at a planning event.
    After the first plane hit one of my friends got a call from his mum (like SE) saying what had just happened and so a group of us went into the main meeting room which had a tv and saw the second plane hit shortly afterwards.

    By contrast I was in my room packing up to go to uni.
    Sometimes reading these posts make me feel OLD.
    Sheer nonsense, Your Majesty.
    They certainly make me feel old, and actually how quite young to us oldies our colleagues on here are
    You ain't old, old bean. Are you going to call the world whippersnapper?

    South Wales beckons.
    I actually am quite enjoying reading colleagues recollection of that dreadful day

    For all our differences we are an excellent and unique discussion forum
    I'm missing a few of the old regulars though: Bluest Blue, Peter the Punter, Ave It and even MysticRose (though she was irritating). And @Barnesian hasn't posted for a while.
    I hope it does not mean that we need an obituary wall. At least one of us has made provision for his executors to notify us (I think I remember who, but won't risk it as it might be tactless if I get it wrong!).
    I think that's very thoughtful. I have on occasion PMd lapsed posters to urge them to at least post once in a while to let us know they are ok.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,228

    Farooq said:

    Twenty years ago

    Agent (whispering): "Mr President, sir, America is under attack"
    Bush (holding a children's book upside down): "I know"

    Here's a weird thing. Shortly after 9/11 I chanced upon David Icke's website. Icke was fuming. He'd just seen a televised Q&A session involving George W Bush (at some school or college I think). The content of that session should have made world-wide news, but the media had suppressed it. The exchange went something like this.

    Questioner: Mr President, what were you doing when the Twin Towers were hit?

    Bush: Well, we were watching TV when the first plane hit. I've done some flying myself and I thought: Gee, he's not a very good pilot. But then we saw the second plane hit and we realized it was no accident.


    But what's weird is that Icke provided a link to the Whitehouse website, which had a transcript of that exchange exactly as he had described it. I've always wondered what happen there. Had the website been hacked? Had I been redirected to a fake site? Or was the transcript genuine?
    It sounds genuine. But it’s not terribly uncommon for people to have rather chilly or flippant reactions to tragedies their brains can’t compute.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,701

    Farooq said:

    Twenty years ago

    Agent (whispering): "Mr President, sir, America is under attack"
    Bush (holding a children's book upside down): "I know"

    Here's a weird thing. Shortly after 9/11 I chanced upon David Icke's website. Icke was fuming. He'd just seen a televised Q&A session involving George W Bush (at some school or college I think). The content of that session should have made world-wide news, but the media had suppressed it. The exchange went something like this.

    Questioner: Mr President, what were you doing when the Twin Towers were hit?

    Bush: Well, we were watching TV when the first plane hit. I've done some flying myself and I thought: Gee, he's not a very good pilot. But then we saw the second plane hit and we realized it was no accident.


    But what's weird is that Icke provided a link to the Whitehouse website, which had a transcript of that exchange exactly as he had described it. I've always wondered what happen there. Had the website been hacked? Had I been redirected to a fake site? Or was the transcript genuine?
    I mean it's so obviously not true, otherwise why would his handlers have had to inform him in the school classroom?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,228
    RobD said:

    Farooq said:

    Twenty years ago

    Agent (whispering): "Mr President, sir, America is under attack"
    Bush (holding a children's book upside down): "I know"

    Here's a weird thing. Shortly after 9/11 I chanced upon David Icke's website. Icke was fuming. He'd just seen a televised Q&A session involving George W Bush (at some school or college I think). The content of that session should have made world-wide news, but the media had suppressed it. The exchange went something like this.

    Questioner: Mr President, what were you doing when the Twin Towers were hit?

    Bush: Well, we were watching TV when the first plane hit. I've done some flying myself and I thought: Gee, he's not a very good pilot. But then we saw the second plane hit and we realized it was no accident.


    But what's weird is that Icke provided a link to the Whitehouse website, which had a transcript of that exchange exactly as he had described it. I've always wondered what happen there. Had the website been hacked? Had I been redirected to a fake site? Or was the transcript genuine?
    I mean it's so obviously not true, otherwise why would his handlers have had to inform him in the school classroom?
    When the second plane hit?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,899
    9/11... I was interviewing contractors for an IT project - short interviews, since the agency provided an assurance of their suitability.

    After the first Interview, I returned to my desk to be told a small plane had crashed into the WTC. After the second interview, back to my desk to see that a second plane had hit the other tower. I told the third interviewee she had the job and apologised for not being able to interview her properly. Fourth and fifth interviewees conctacted and told they were hired and no need to come in for an interview.

    Spent the rest of the afternoon watching the tragedy unfold.

    Strangely enough all the hires that day turned out to be fine.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,228
    edited September 10
    Cyclefree said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Princess Diana's death was an odd one for me. I'd been clubbing in Cambridge, and got a taxi back in the early hours. The taxi driver told me that Princess Diana had been injured in a car crash. When I got back to my digs, I turned on the TV and (from memory) there was nothing about it on (*): it was annoying, and something that we wouldn't dream of in the modern 24-hour news cycle. I stayed up, and after a while it appeared on the BBC, saying she'd been injured. I guess at that stage they knew she'd died, and were just waiting for confirmation.

    People's reactions were very odd. I am generally a royalist, and whilst I thought it was sad, it didn't really affect me deeply. My then-GF's dad was German, and a vehement republican; he apparently cried his eyes out.

    (*) I've just checked, and the BBC News 24 channel started a couple of months after her death.

    That was the day I learnt I was pregnant with one of my children. I woke early, wondered why the World Service was doing a documentary about Diana, went to do the test and it was only later that I learnt about the accident. Much more interested in my news TBH.

    I found the whole candles and votive offerings that week a huge overreaction. It was as if Britain had rediscovered its inner Catholicism. Reminiscent of nothing so much as those shrines to the Madonna you see all over Southern Italy.
    I didn't feel it, thought the reaction OTT, but I think I can understand it. She was top royalty - a public figure of great standing - plus at the same time a young and glamorous, A* list modern world celebrity. So a JFK type event.
    Not a particular fan. I can understand the shock - but the reaction - and the way it fed on itself - was more interesting than the main event. Something banal about a car accident and she'd likely have survived if she'd worn a seatbelt.
    For me, there was a genuine LOL moment when that muppet Nicholas Witchell announced Prince Charles would be visiting the hospital where Diana had died to thank the staff.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564
    Stocky said:

    IanB2 said:

    Stocky said:

    IanB2 said:

    Two decades of not being able to take liquids onto a plane, confiscated jam, and the rest. And for what?

    Slimmer waistlines?
    I wouldn’t recommend Bavaria
    I enjoy the food when I go skiing in Austria. I mean really enjoy. And the exercise you get skiing gives me the excuse to be gluttonous. (I used to be said that it is impossible to gain weight on a skiing holiday due to the combination of energy expended and altitude, but I think that is baloney.)

    Can't wait for my next Tyrolean dumplings with bacon and sauerkraut. Yum.
    It a diet that positively requires you to be physically active. Or fat.

    Sausage, dumplings, lots of potato, and that spätzle that looks like someone tried to make pasta but it went wrong, but they served it anyway - often on the plate alongside the potato. Meat and cheese for breakfast, and cake in the afternoon as the fourth meal of the day.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,609

    Farooq said:

    Twenty years ago

    Agent (whispering): "Mr President, sir, America is under attack"
    Bush (holding a children's book upside down): "I know"

    Was it really upside down? If so I share something in common with Bush: I can read a book that is upside down perfectly well (depending on the typeface used; some serif fonts are more difficult).

    My cousin can do it as well; my brother and sister cannot. Mrs J cannot. It's not something I've practiced, just something I can do for some reason.

    A real Zeroes skill.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9ewB6iUhAY
    My father taught himself to read as quickly upside down as normal. He used it in sales negotiations to read his opposite numbers position papers.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,501
    edited September 10
    Repeat from a few days ago. But the Missus went to the travel agent (dated it already) to book us a cheap autumn getaway as the schools had gone back. She was with a member of staff going through available packages, when every single phone started ringing at once.
    As info dribbled through, the shop was shut and everyone, staff and customers alike crowded into the back room to watch it on a tiny portable telly.
    I was with a cranky 18 month old watching Tweenies. Even though I knew history was being made on almost every other channel.
    Needless to say we didn't have a holiday for a few months.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,701
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Farooq said:

    Twenty years ago

    Agent (whispering): "Mr President, sir, America is under attack"
    Bush (holding a children's book upside down): "I know"

    Here's a weird thing. Shortly after 9/11 I chanced upon David Icke's website. Icke was fuming. He'd just seen a televised Q&A session involving George W Bush (at some school or college I think). The content of that session should have made world-wide news, but the media had suppressed it. The exchange went something like this.

    Questioner: Mr President, what were you doing when the Twin Towers were hit?

    Bush: Well, we were watching TV when the first plane hit. I've done some flying myself and I thought: Gee, he's not a very good pilot. But then we saw the second plane hit and we realized it was no accident.


    But what's weird is that Icke provided a link to the Whitehouse website, which had a transcript of that exchange exactly as he had described it. I've always wondered what happen there. Had the website been hacked? Had I been redirected to a fake site? Or was the transcript genuine?
    I mean it's so obviously not true, otherwise why would his handlers have had to inform him in the school classroom?
    When the second plane hit?
    The quote implies they were watching TV when the first plane hit.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 6,498
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    Apologies if this has been posted. But this really confirms the worst about today's pensioners. Millenials take a breath before reading.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/10/pensioners-governments-tax-triple-lock-pensions-rise-national-insurance

    So, just to be clear;

    They’ve invented a new tax, to pay for things it won’t cover, to be levied on the working poor to fund the comfortable retired, pissing off the working poor and failing to achieve anything;

    AND HAVE STILL NOT PLEASED PENSIONERS.

    So in every possible way this policy is an abject failure.
    Do list every possible way and quite how this is a failure. I'm looking forwards to all of the things involving ducks.
    Can we blame it for the abandonment up at Old Trafford? If so it saved England 20 ducks.
    Of course. Reconsideration is it.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 553
    ydoethur said:

    News from the M6 Toll. They are trialling ANPR as a method of charging.

    I wonder if this will finally lead to the long overdue pricing by length of travel on it rather than effectively charging full price for pretty much any length of journey?

    If they finally make the bit from the A38 south to the M42 a sensible price, that would be fantastic - I hate going round on the A446, but there is no way you can justify £7 to save maybe 2 minutes... Now if it was £2, different story!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,701
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Farooq said:

    Twenty years ago

    Agent (whispering): "Mr President, sir, America is under attack"
    Bush (holding a children's book upside down): "I know"

    Here's a weird thing. Shortly after 9/11 I chanced upon David Icke's website. Icke was fuming. He'd just seen a televised Q&A session involving George W Bush (at some school or college I think). The content of that session should have made world-wide news, but the media had suppressed it. The exchange went something like this.

    Questioner: Mr President, what were you doing when the Twin Towers were hit?

    Bush: Well, we were watching TV when the first plane hit. I've done some flying myself and I thought: Gee, he's not a very good pilot. But then we saw the second plane hit and we realized it was no accident.


    But what's weird is that Icke provided a link to the Whitehouse website, which had a transcript of that exchange exactly as he had described it. I've always wondered what happen there. Had the website been hacked? Had I been redirected to a fake site? Or was the transcript genuine?
    I mean it's so obviously not true, otherwise why would his handlers have had to inform him in the school classroom?
    When the second plane hit?
    Actually, he was told after the second plane hit. Debunked.
  • ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    IanB2 said:

    Two decades of not being able to take liquids onto a plane, confiscated jam, and the rest. And for what?

    Slimmer waistlines?
    The liquids business is from 2006 isn’t it? When John Reid parked a load of tanks in front of airports for reasons that remain obscure.
    I presumed it was richard reid the shoe bomber that led to the liquids ban but cant remember what his bomb consisted of.
    And you'd be well-advised not to google it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564
    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Princess Diana's death was an odd one for me. I'd been clubbing in Cambridge, and got a taxi back in the early hours. The taxi driver told me that Princess Diana had been injured in a car crash. When I got back to my digs, I turned on the TV and (from memory) there was nothing about it on (*): it was annoying, and something that we wouldn't dream of in the modern 24-hour news cycle. I stayed up, and after a while it appeared on the BBC, saying she'd been injured. I guess at that stage they knew she'd died, and were just waiting for confirmation.

    People's reactions were very odd. I am generally a royalist, and whilst I thought it was sad, it didn't really affect me deeply. My then-GF's dad was German, and a vehement republican; he apparently cried his eyes out.

    (*) I've just checked, and the BBC News 24 channel started a couple of months after her death.

    That was the day I learnt I was pregnant with one of my children. I woke early, wondered why the World Service was doing a documentary about Diana, went to do the test and it was only later that I learnt about the accident. Much more interested in my news TBH.

    I found the whole candles and votive offerings that week a huge overreaction. It was as if Britain had rediscovered its inner Catholicism. Reminiscent of nothing so much as those shrines to the Madonna you see all over Southern Italy.
    I didn't feel it, thought the reaction OTT, but I think I can understand it. She was top royalty - a public figure of great standing - plus at the same time a young and glamorous, A* list modern world celebrity. So a JFK type event.
    The reaction was much weaker in Scotland, for some reason. Personally the incomprehensible hysteria frightened me. I had to be warned to be careful what i said in public as I was down in England that week.
    As I recall there had been a storm in London overnight and some of the radio stations were down that morning? Which made it more spooky.

    People forget that the outpouring of grief was a slow build, over the week following, rather than a spontaneous reaction to her death.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,899
    edited September 10
    dixiedean said:

    Apologies if this has been posted. But this really confirms the worst about today's pensioners. Millenials take a breath before reading.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/10/pensioners-governments-tax-triple-lock-pensions-rise-national-insurance

    As a Guardian reader and retiree I find that really embarrassing. I struggle to believe most retired Guardian readers would echo the thoughts of the four quoted.

    It's almost as if the journalist is trying too hard to deliver the Guardian's 'fuck the government' message.

    As I said on here a few days ago, the extra tax should have been raised by extending NI to all income, including pensions and earnings for the over 65s. That would have hurt me personally but would be fairer than piling more tax on those in employment.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,228
    edited September 10
    theProle said:

    ydoethur said:

    News from the M6 Toll. They are trialling ANPR as a method of charging.

    I wonder if this will finally lead to the long overdue pricing by length of travel on it rather than effectively charging full price for pretty much any length of journey?

    If they finally make the bit from the A38 south to the M42 a sensible price, that would be fantastic - I hate going round on the A446, but there is no way you can justify £7 to save maybe 2 minutes... Now if it was £2, different story!
    It’s also crazy that on the right tariff you can leave at any intermediate junction with a TAG and it costs under three quid, but if you join at any intermediate junction and pass the toll plaza you’re charged full whack.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,701

    dixiedean said:

    Apologies if this has been posted. But this really confirms the worst about today's pensioners. Millenials take a breath before reading.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/10/pensioners-governments-tax-triple-lock-pensions-rise-national-insurance

    As a Guardian reader and retiree I find that really embarrassing. I struggle to believe most retired Guardian readers would echo the thoughts of the four quoted.

    It's almost as if the journalist is trying too hard to deliver the Guardian's 'fuck the government' message.

    As I said on here a few days ago, the extra tax should have been raised by extending NI to all income, including pensions and earnings for the over 65s. That would have hurt me personally but would be fairer than piling more tax on those in employment.
    That was my reaction when seeing it too. Working pensioners hugely overrepresented there.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564
    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    Twenty years ago

    Agent (whispering): "Mr President, sir, America is under attack"
    Bush (holding a children's book upside down): "I know"

    Here's a weird thing. Shortly after 9/11 I chanced upon David Icke's website. Icke was fuming. He'd just seen a televised Q&A session involving George W Bush (at some school or college I think). The content of that session should have made world-wide news, but the media had suppressed it. The exchange went something like this.

    Questioner: Mr President, what were you doing when the Twin Towers were hit?

    Bush: Well, we were watching TV when the first plane hit. I've done some flying myself and I thought: Gee, he's not a very good pilot. But then we saw the second plane hit and we realized it was no accident.


    But what's weird is that Icke provided a link to the Whitehouse website, which had a transcript of that exchange exactly as he had described it. I've always wondered what happen there. Had the website been hacked? Had I been redirected to a fake site? Or was the transcript genuine?
    It sounds genuine. But it’s not terribly uncommon for people to have rather chilly or flippant reactions to tragedies their brains can’t compute.
    My initial reaction to the news was flippant, which is why I have forgotten what it was.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972
    stodge said:

    Counterfactual historians tend to look at 9/11 a bit like the assassination of Franz Ferdinand.

    One school is that it changed everything, another is it changed nothing.

    The former build a timeline around 9/11 not happening having a chain reaction through Europe, the Middle East and beyond fundamentally altering British and American politics. The latter argue something like 9/11 would have happened sooner or later given the build up of AQ in Afghanistan.

    In terms of 1914, it's one thing to build a world with no great wars (though plenty of little ones) in the 20th Century but that bumps up against the argument war had become inevitable in 1914 because too many important players saw it as a possible solution to seemingly intractable problems or unstoppable trends.

    In the very long term, I'm in the changed nothing camp.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,633
    Stocky said:


    dixiedean said:

    Apologies if this has been posted. But this really confirms the worst about today's pensioners. Millenials take a breath before reading.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/10/pensioners-governments-tax-triple-lock-pensions-rise-national-insurance

    OK - I read it.

    "Designed to pay for the NHS and social care, the tax overhaul will result in about 1.3 million working pensioners over the age of 65 paying national insurance (NI) contributions on their earnings for the first time.

    For those earning over the threshold when NI kicks in – currently £9,568 a year – there will be a 1.25 percentage point levy on earnings over that sum."

    Terry (68) from Amesbury think it’s a cheek to take further NI contributions from him, especially when it means he won’t be getting more pension... Err - even though he will be getting more pension.

    Meanwhile, Pauline (67) from Oxford said that the suspension of the triple lock and the requirement to pay NI again makes her feel as if she has “fallen through the cracks in the system”.

    So a pensioner getting, say, £10k state pension + £10k private pension + £19,568 earned income will be liable for 1.25% levy on £10k of the earned income = £125?

    Jeez.

    "Brown, who worked for 45 years as a railway engineer, said without his company pension he would “find it hard to exist” on the state pension alone."


    45 years for British Rail? It's rude to ask, but I suspect he has a pension from that which will keep him from starving and then some.
  • Diana. I'm a big royalist and whilst tragic I thought the reaction to her death was massively OTT and un-British then, and still do so now.

    It also clearly traumatised Harry for life: he was forced to march behind his mother's coffin in public with his brother, maintaining a stiff upper lip, whilst people who'd never met her wailed at him all the way. Shameful.

    The Queen's approach of private grief was far more appropriate for the family and, although vociferously criticised at the time, she was right.

    I was in central France at the time and got the news on long wave accompanied by much hissing and fading. Later on, popped down to the boulangerie where the reaction was, indeed, OTT and un-British. My upper lip never quivered, I'm pleased to say.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,501
    edited September 10

    dixiedean said:

    Apologies if this has been posted. But this really confirms the worst about today's pensioners. Millenials take a breath before reading.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/10/pensioners-governments-tax-triple-lock-pensions-rise-national-insurance

    As a Guardian reader and retiree I find that really embarrassing. I struggle to believe most retired Guardian readers would echo the thoughts of the four quoted.

    It's almost as if the journalist is trying too hard to deliver the Guardian's 'fuck the government' message.

    As I said on here a few days ago, the extra tax should have been raised by extending NI to all income, including pensions and earnings for the over 65s. That would have hurt me personally but would be fairer than piling more tax on those in employment.
    Maybe so. But it is not uncommon to see the fuckwittery of a few young people make a full page feature in many newspapers proving how witless and feckless the young are. In fact it is almost daily.
    Are they a representative sample? Perhaps not. Are they representative of a particular viewpoint which is not ashamed to be featured in the national press? Obviously not.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,494

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Princess Diana's death was an odd one for me. I'd been clubbing in Cambridge, and got a taxi back in the early hours. The taxi driver told me that Princess Diana had been injured in a car crash. When I got back to my digs, I turned on the TV and (from memory) there was nothing about it on (*): it was annoying, and something that we wouldn't dream of in the modern 24-hour news cycle. I stayed up, and after a while it appeared on the BBC, saying she'd been injured. I guess at that stage they knew she'd died, and were just waiting for confirmation.

    People's reactions were very odd. I am generally a royalist, and whilst I thought it was sad, it didn't really affect me deeply. My then-GF's dad was German, and a vehement republican; he apparently cried his eyes out.

    (*) I've just checked, and the BBC News 24 channel started a couple of months after her death.

    That was the day I learnt I was pregnant with one of my children. I woke early, wondered why the World Service was doing a documentary about Diana, went to do the test and it was only later that I learnt about the accident. Much more interested in my news TBH.

    I found the whole candles and votive offerings that week a huge overreaction. It was as if Britain had rediscovered its inner Catholicism. Reminiscent of nothing so much as those shrines to the Madonna you see all over Southern Italy.
    I didn't feel it, thought the reaction OTT, but I think I can understand it. She was top royalty - a public figure of great standing - plus at the same time a young and glamorous, A* list modern world celebrity. So a JFK type event.
    The People's Princess, even. Almost as good a slogan as Get Brexit Done.
    That was peak Tony, no question.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,564

    stodge said:

    Counterfactual historians tend to look at 9/11 a bit like the assassination of Franz Ferdinand.

    One school is that it changed everything, another is it changed nothing.

    The former build a timeline around 9/11 not happening having a chain reaction through Europe, the Middle East and beyond fundamentally altering British and American politics. The latter argue something like 9/11 would have happened sooner or later given the build up of AQ in Afghanistan.

    In terms of 1914, it's one thing to build a world with no great wars (though plenty of little ones) in the 20th Century but that bumps up against the argument war had become inevitable in 1914 because too many important players saw it as a possible solution to seemingly intractable problems or unstoppable trends.

    In the very long term, I'm in the changed nothing camp.
    In the very long term, the sun burns the Earth to a crisp. Meanwhile, some events do change the course of history; US-led western interventionism (on the ground) in the Middle East dates from then, and (possibly) has just come to an end.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,899
    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Twenty years ago

    Agent (whispering): "Mr President, sir, America is under attack"
    Bush (holding a children's book upside down): "I know"

    Was it really upside down? If so I share something in common with Bush: I can read a book that is upside down perfectly well (depending on the typeface used; some serif fonts are more difficult).

    My cousin can do it as well; my brother and sister cannot. Mrs J cannot. It's not something I've practiced, just something I can do for some reason.

    A real Zeroes skill.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9ewB6iUhAY
    My father taught himself to read as quickly upside down as normal. He used it in sales negotiations to read his opposite numbers position papers.
    I have never had to teach myself but for some reason I can read upside down quite easily.

    It has come in very handy in many business negotitations... especially as some people seem to assume it's impossible to read a page if it's not the right way round.
  • Sadly the covid situation in the uK is now getting substantially worse. Last 4 days of death figures 209, 191, 167, 147. Weve gone from the odd day over 100 deaths to averaging around 170 deaths per day. This with case numbers broadly flat. In other words the ratio of deaths to cases is rising substantially and it is still only early september. I would think is this continues a return to the may level of restrictions is likely
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Diana. I'm a big royalist and whilst tragic I thought the reaction to her death was massively OTT and un-British then, and still do so now.

    It also clearly traumatised Harry for life: he was forced to march behind his mother's coffin in public with his brother, maintaining a stiff upper lip, whilst people who'd never met her wailed at him all the way. Shameful.

    The Queen's approach of private grief was far more appropriate for the family and, although vociferously criticised at the time, she was right.

    I was in central France at the time and got the news on long wave accompanied by much hissing and fading. Later on, popped down to the boulangerie where the reaction was, indeed, OTT and un-British. My upper lip never quivered, I'm pleased to say.
    I was in the South of France - the French seemed more emotional about it than either my wife or me.
  • Sadly the covid situation in the uK is now getting substantially worse. Last 4 days of death figures 209, 191, 167, 147. Weve gone from the odd day over 100 deaths to averaging around 170 deaths per day. This with case numbers broadly flat. In other words the ratio of deaths to cases is rising substantially and it is still only early september. I would think is this continues a return to the may level of restrictions is likely

    Flag....
  • Prof Alice Roberts💙
    @theAliceRoberts
    ·
    2h
    The UK is carrying out a unique experiment in just ditching precautions and allowing such high numbers of cases -
    @chrischirp
    sharing this comparison at the
    @IndependentSage briefing. 1000 deaths a week has somehow become normalised.

    ==


    Yet we see no widespread public alarm as to where we are with things and certainly no clamour for lockdown or making pubs social distance.

    So maybe 1000 deaths a week is the acceptable level for this new disease at least for a while anyway?

    It depends upon who the 1000 people dying per week are.

    They seem to be either anti-vaxxers or sick oldies dying with rather than from covid.

    Hence the lack of concern from everyone else.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,633
    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Farooq said:

    Twenty years ago

    Agent (whispering): "Mr President, sir, America is under attack"
    Bush (holding a children's book upside down): "I know"

    Here's a weird thing. Shortly after 9/11 I chanced upon David Icke's website. Icke was fuming. He'd just seen a televised Q&A session involving George W Bush (at some school or college I think). The content of that session should have made world-wide news, but the media had suppressed it. The exchange went something like this.

    Questioner: Mr President, what were you doing when the Twin Towers were hit?

    Bush: Well, we were watching TV when the first plane hit. I've done some flying myself and I thought: Gee, he's not a very good pilot. But then we saw the second plane hit and we realized it was no accident.


    But what's weird is that Icke provided a link to the Whitehouse website, which had a transcript of that exchange exactly as he had described it. I've always wondered what happen there. Had the website been hacked? Had I been redirected to a fake site? Or was the transcript genuine?
    I mean it's so obviously not true, otherwise why would his handlers have had to inform him in the school classroom?
    When the second plane hit?
    Actually, he was told after the second plane hit. Debunked.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sept11-bush-idUSTRE78A0O920110911
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,501

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Twenty years ago

    Agent (whispering): "Mr President, sir, America is under attack"
    Bush (holding a children's book upside down): "I know"

    Was it really upside down? If so I share something in common with Bush: I can read a book that is upside down perfectly well (depending on the typeface used; some serif fonts are more difficult).

    My cousin can do it as well; my brother and sister cannot. Mrs J cannot. It's not something I've practiced, just something I can do for some reason.

    A real Zeroes skill.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9ewB6iUhAY
    My father taught himself to read as quickly upside down as normal. He used it in sales negotiations to read his opposite numbers position papers.
    I have never had to teach myself but for some reason I can read upside down quite easily.

    It has come in very handy in many business negotitations... especially as some people seem to assume it's impossible to read a page if it's not the right way round.
    Me too. I can also read text in a mirror.
  • I remember the death of Diana, Princess of Wales as one of those things you don't forget.

    We had been to a wedding in Reading on the Saturday and got back home in the early hours of Sunday morning, got home to have a drink and open the letters that had been delivered during, switched on Sky News to hear that she had been in a car accident but it was nothing serious, went to bed.

    Woke up at 11am on the Sunday to go shopping at Sainsbury's, got to the supermarket and there was this weird chatter and I couldn't understand it, then picked up my copy of The Sunday Telegraph which had 'Diana dead' on its front pages like all other papers.

    Went home and told my mother and she was shocked and in denial because they said it wasn't serious a few hours earlier.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,156
    edited September 10

    Prof Alice Roberts💙
    @theAliceRoberts
    ·
    2h
    The UK is carrying out a unique experiment in just ditching precautions and allowing such high numbers of cases -
    @chrischirp
    sharing this comparison at the
    @IndependentSage briefing. 1000 deaths a week has somehow become normalised.

    ==


    Yet we see no widespread public alarm as to where we are with things and certainly no clamour for lockdown or making pubs social distance.

    So maybe 1000 deaths a week is the acceptable level for this new disease at least for a while anyway?

    It depends upon who the 1000 people dying per week are.

    They seem to be either anti-vaxxers or sick oldies dying with rather than from covid.

    Hence the lack of concern from everyone else.
    Ed Conway posted the data....it is basically antivaxxers and over 80s. Under 60 and vaxxed, watch out for that bus, as that is more likely to kill you.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    edited September 10

    Sadly the covid situation in the uK is now getting substantially worse. Last 4 days of death figures 209, 191, 167, 147. Weve gone from the odd day over 100 deaths to averaging around 170 deaths per day. This with case numbers broadly flat. In other words the ratio of deaths to cases is rising substantially and it is still only early september. I would think is this continues a return to the may level of restrictions is likely

    It's rising, but it is not anywhere near mass restrictions level of justification, this chart of deaths demonstrating why.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,494
    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Princess Diana's death was an odd one for me. I'd been clubbing in Cambridge, and got a taxi back in the early hours. The taxi driver told me that Princess Diana had been injured in a car crash. When I got back to my digs, I turned on the TV and (from memory) there was nothing about it on (*): it was annoying, and something that we wouldn't dream of in the modern 24-hour news cycle. I stayed up, and after a while it appeared on the BBC, saying she'd been injured. I guess at that stage they knew she'd died, and were just waiting for confirmation.

    People's reactions were very odd. I am generally a royalist, and whilst I thought it was sad, it didn't really affect me deeply. My then-GF's dad was German, and a vehement republican; he apparently cried his eyes out.

    (*) I've just checked, and the BBC News 24 channel started a couple of months after her death.

    That was the day I learnt I was pregnant with one of my children. I woke early, wondered why the World Service was doing a documentary about Diana, went to do the test and it was only later that I learnt about the accident. Much more interested in my news TBH.

    I found the whole candles and votive offerings that week a huge overreaction. It was as if Britain had rediscovered its inner Catholicism. Reminiscent of nothing so much as those shrines to the Madonna you see all over Southern Italy.
    I didn't feel it, thought the reaction OTT, but I think I can understand it. She was top royalty - a public figure of great standing - plus at the same time a young and glamorous, A* list modern world celebrity. So a JFK type event.
    The reaction was much weaker in Scotland, for some reason. Personally the incomprehensible hysteria frightened me. I had to be warned to be careful what i said in public as I was down in England that week.
    Yes, there was hysteria and it doesn't take much to tip that into something nasty. A very odd interlude.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,894
    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Twenty years ago

    Agent (whispering): "Mr President, sir, America is under attack"
    Bush (holding a children's book upside down): "I know"

    Was it really upside down? If so I share something in common with Bush: I can read a book that is upside down perfectly well (depending on the typeface used; some serif fonts are more difficult).

    My cousin can do it as well; my brother and sister cannot. Mrs J cannot. It's not something I've practiced, just something I can do for some reason.

    A real Zeroes skill.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9ewB6iUhAY
    My father taught himself to read as quickly upside down as normal. He used it in sales negotiations to read his opposite numbers position papers.
    I have never had to teach myself but for some reason I can read upside down quite easily.

    It has come in very handy in many business negotitations... especially as some people seem to assume it's impossible to read a page if it's not the right way round.
    Me too. I can also read text in a mirror.
    I can read a map upside down. And can write pretty well with my left hand despite being right handed.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,609
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Princess Diana's death was an odd one for me. I'd been clubbing in Cambridge, and got a taxi back in the early hours. The taxi driver told me that Princess Diana had been injured in a car crash. When I got back to my digs, I turned on the TV and (from memory) there was nothing about it on (*): it was annoying, and something that we wouldn't dream of in the modern 24-hour news cycle. I stayed up, and after a while it appeared on the BBC, saying she'd been injured. I guess at that stage they knew she'd died, and were just waiting for confirmation.

    People's reactions were very odd. I am generally a royalist, and whilst I thought it was sad, it didn't really affect me deeply. My then-GF's dad was German, and a vehement republican; he apparently cried his eyes out.

    (*) I've just checked, and the BBC News 24 channel started a couple of months after her death.

    That was the day I learnt I was pregnant with one of my children. I woke early, wondered why the World Service was doing a documentary about Diana, went to do the test and it was only later that I learnt about the accident. Much more interested in my news TBH.

    I found the whole candles and votive offerings that week a huge overreaction. It was as if Britain had rediscovered its inner Catholicism. Reminiscent of nothing so much as those shrines to the Madonna you see all over Southern Italy.
    I didn't feel it, thought the reaction OTT, but I think I can understand it. She was top royalty - a public figure of great standing - plus at the same time a young and glamorous, A* list modern world celebrity. So a JFK type event.
    The People's Princess, even. Almost as good a slogan as Get Brexit Done.
    That was peak Tony, no question.
    Actually true too. Diana had a common touch that other Royals just cannot match. The Royals are really tough on those who marry in and outshine them.
  • kle4 said:

    Sadly the covid situation in the uK is now getting substantially worse. Last 4 days of death figures 209, 191, 167, 147. Weve gone from the odd day over 100 deaths to averaging around 170 deaths per day. This with case numbers broadly flat. In other words the ratio of deaths to cases is rising substantially and it is still only early september. I would think is this continues a return to the may level of restrictions is likely

    It's rising, but it is not anywhere near mass restrictions level, this chart of deaths demonstrating why.

    oh i agree but its only early september. The point is the death curve is now outpacing the case curve. this could be a problem as we move into october. And as for oldies dying mainly...that was always the case...didnt prevent us having 3 lockdowns though
  • also if you look at the data quite a lot of deaths in the 60 to 79 category. i doubt all these are at deaths door and given vaccine uptake in that age group its highly unlikely they are all antivaxxers
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972
    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:

    Counterfactual historians tend to look at 9/11 a bit like the assassination of Franz Ferdinand.

    One school is that it changed everything, another is it changed nothing.

    The former build a timeline around 9/11 not happening having a chain reaction through Europe, the Middle East and beyond fundamentally altering British and American politics. The latter argue something like 9/11 would have happened sooner or later given the build up of AQ in Afghanistan.

    In terms of 1914, it's one thing to build a world with no great wars (though plenty of little ones) in the 20th Century but that bumps up against the argument war had become inevitable in 1914 because too many important players saw it as a possible solution to seemingly intractable problems or unstoppable trends.

    In the very long term, I'm in the changed nothing camp.
    In the very long term, the sun burns the Earth to a crisp. Meanwhile, some events do change the course of history; US-led western interventionism (on the ground) in the Middle East dates from then, and (possibly) has just come to an end.
    It was a terrorist attack by a well-organised group with a charismatic leader funded by oil money in the Middle-East. In 20 years time, this will seem out of date and antiquated.

    The big challenge was (and is) the eclipse of the West by economically stronger competing authoritarian powers, and our capacity for self-immolation.

    Islamic terrorism is simply a terrifying (but ultimately irrelevant) distraction.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,156
    edited September 10

    also if you look at the data quite a lot of deaths in the 60 to 79 category. i doubt all these are at deaths door and given vaccine uptake in that age group its highly unlikely they are all antivaxxers

    Again Ed Conway posted the data....it is very low among vaxxed in this age group....death are dominated by antivaxxers.

    The point is with delta, if you are unvaxxed just a matter of time until you get covid...whuch drives up hospitalisations...which drives up deaths.

    Now there are break through cases among vaccinated, and over 80s group who see break throughs that is dicey (although far better than without being vaxxed)...but we don't know how much that is due to those people already been very sickly.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,633

    Prof Alice Roberts💙
    @theAliceRoberts
    ·
    2h
    The UK is carrying out a unique experiment in just ditching precautions and allowing such high numbers of cases -
    @chrischirp
    sharing this comparison at the
    @IndependentSage briefing. 1000 deaths a week has somehow become normalised.

    ==


    Yet we see no widespread public alarm as to where we are with things and certainly no clamour for lockdown or making pubs social distance.

    So maybe 1000 deaths a week is the acceptable level for this new disease at least for a while anyway?

    It depends upon who the 1000 people dying per week are.

    They seem to be either anti-vaxxers or sick oldies dying with rather than from covid.

    Hence the lack of concern from everyone else.
    Ed Conway posted the data....it is basically antivaxxers and over 80s. Under 60 and vaxxed, watch out for that bus, as that is more likely to kill you.
    And some (many?) of those 80+ years olds would have died this coming winter from flu in a normal season.

    To be blunt.
  • also if you look at the data quite a lot of deaths in the 60 to 79 category. i doubt all these are at deaths door and given vaccine uptake in that age group its highly unlikely they are all antivaxxers

    Again Ed Conway posted the data....it is very low among vaxxed in this age group....deaths are dominated by antivaxxers.
    thanks id like to see that data if possible. Notwithstanding that i do think there is a level of complacency about covid at the moment which i think boris johnson will dispel when he sets out his plans next week.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,366


    In the very long term, I'm in the changed nothing camp.

    I think 9/11 ended that brief period of "Pax Americana" which had begun in November 1989,

    The Soviet threat dissolved - Saddam was ejected from Kuwait by a UN-backed force. Eventually, even Yugoslavia got sorted (kind of). Yes, it didn't go well in Somalia.

    Even so, that decade or more, America and the West stood unchallenged - Iran and China were muted, people started writing about "The End of History" etc. In hindsight, it all looks very hubristic.

    Clinton and Blair were products of that time, of the Peace Dividend and the Third Way.

  • RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Farooq said:

    Twenty years ago

    Agent (whispering): "Mr President, sir, America is under attack"
    Bush (holding a children's book upside down): "I know"

    Here's a weird thing. Shortly after 9/11 I chanced upon David Icke's website. Icke was fuming. He'd just seen a televised Q&A session involving George W Bush (at some school or college I think). The content of that session should have made world-wide news, but the media had suppressed it. The exchange went something like this.

    Questioner: Mr President, what were you doing when the Twin Towers were hit?

    Bush: Well, we were watching TV when the first plane hit. I've done some flying myself and I thought: Gee, he's not a very good pilot. But then we saw the second plane hit and we realized it was no accident.


    But what's weird is that Icke provided a link to the Whitehouse website, which had a transcript of that exchange exactly as he had described it. I've always wondered what happen there. Had the website been hacked? Had I been redirected to a fake site? Or was the transcript genuine?
    I mean it's so obviously not true, otherwise why would his handlers have had to inform him in the school classroom?
    When the second plane hit?
    The quote implies they were watching TV when the first plane hit.
    Yes, that right. Either Bush was an absolute blithering idiot who couldn't correctly recall what he'd been doing, or the goat-story thing was itself a fabrication and he and his advisors were actually somewhere else (and Bush let slip). As I said, it was probably all a trick, but I'd love to know how it was done.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,501
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Princess Diana's death was an odd one for me. I'd been clubbing in Cambridge, and got a taxi back in the early hours. The taxi driver told me that Princess Diana had been injured in a car crash. When I got back to my digs, I turned on the TV and (from memory) there was nothing about it on (*): it was annoying, and something that we wouldn't dream of in the modern 24-hour news cycle. I stayed up, and after a while it appeared on the BBC, saying she'd been injured. I guess at that stage they knew she'd died, and were just waiting for confirmation.

    People's reactions were very odd. I am generally a royalist, and whilst I thought it was sad, it didn't really affect me deeply. My then-GF's dad was German, and a vehement republican; he apparently cried his eyes out.

    (*) I've just checked, and the BBC News 24 channel started a couple of months after her death.

    That was the day I learnt I was pregnant with one of my children. I woke early, wondered why the World Service was doing a documentary about Diana, went to do the test and it was only later that I learnt about the accident. Much more interested in my news TBH.

    I found the whole candles and votive offerings that week a huge overreaction. It was as if Britain had rediscovered its inner Catholicism. Reminiscent of nothing so much as those shrines to the Madonna you see all over Southern Italy.
    I didn't feel it, thought the reaction OTT, but I think I can understand it. She was top royalty - a public figure of great standing - plus at the same time a young and glamorous, A* list modern world celebrity. So a JFK type event.
    The People's Princess, even. Almost as good a slogan as Get Brexit Done.
    That was peak Tony, no question.
    "This is no time for soundbites. I feel the hand of history on my shoulder, I really do."
    That was peak Tony.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,633

    Prof Alice Roberts💙
    @theAliceRoberts
    ·
    2h
    The UK is carrying out a unique experiment in just ditching precautions and allowing such high numbers of cases -
    @chrischirp
    sharing this comparison at the
    @IndependentSage briefing. 1000 deaths a week has somehow become normalised.

    ==


    Yet we see no widespread public alarm as to where we are with things and certainly no clamour for lockdown or making pubs social distance.

    So maybe 1000 deaths a week is the acceptable level for this new disease at least for a while anyway?

    It depends upon who the 1000 people dying per week are.

    They seem to be either anti-vaxxers or sick oldies dying with rather than from covid.

    Hence the lack of concern from everyone else.
    Ed Conway posted the data....it is basically antivaxxers and over 80s. Under 60 and vaxxed, watch out for that bus, as that is more likely to kill you.



    Prof. Christina Pagel
    @chrischirp
    ·

    Right now, about 1,000 people are dying with Covid every week. I don't think we should be OK with this. 7/9
  • Prof Alice Roberts💙
    @theAliceRoberts
    ·
    2h
    The UK is carrying out a unique experiment in just ditching precautions and allowing such high numbers of cases -
    @chrischirp
    sharing this comparison at the
    @IndependentSage briefing. 1000 deaths a week has somehow become normalised.

    ==


    Yet we see no widespread public alarm as to where we are with things and certainly no clamour for lockdown or making pubs social distance.

    So maybe 1000 deaths a week is the acceptable level for this new disease at least for a while anyway?

    It depends upon who the 1000 people dying per week are.

    They seem to be either anti-vaxxers or sick oldies dying with rather than from covid.

    Hence the lack of concern from everyone else.
    Ed Conway posted the data....it is basically antivaxxers and over 80s. Under 60 and vaxxed, watch out for that bus, as that is more likely to kill you.
    And some (many?) of those 80+ years olds would have died this coming winter from flu in a normal season.

    To be blunt.
    that was true in the first wave as well...didnt stop us lockdowning then or in january. You could have made that argument as to why we shouldnt have locked down in january. It was always the case a substantial proportion of deaths were oldies at deaths door even before the vaccine
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Tres said:

    I was in my first proper job after graduating, and that day all the management were offsite at a planning event.
    After the first plane hit one of my friends got a call from his mum (like SE) saying what had just happened and so a group of us went into the main meeting room which had a tv and saw the second plane hit shortly afterwards.

    By contrast I was in my room packing up to go to uni.
    Sometimes reading these posts make me feel OLD.
    Sheer nonsense, Your Majesty.
    They certainly make me feel old, and actually how quite young to us oldies our colleagues on here are
    You ain't old, old bean. Are you going to call the world whippersnapper?

    South Wales beckons.
    I actually am quite enjoying reading colleagues recollection of that dreadful day

    For all our differences we are an excellent and unique discussion forum
    I'm missing a few of the old regulars though: Bluest Blue, Peter the Punter, Ave It and even MysticRose (though she was irritating). And @Barnesian hasn't posted for a while.
    I hope it does not mean that we need an obituary wall. At least one of us has made provision for his executors to notify us (I think I remember who, but won't risk it as it might be tactless if I get it wrong!).
    I think that's very thoughtful. I have on occasion PMd lapsed posters to urge them to at least post once in a while to let us know they are ok.
    I guess we could all leave a modest donation to PB in our wills. That would allow the editors to know when we've popped it and post a suitably gushing obit.

    "Benpointer was a stalwart poster of boring lefty stuff that frequently generated the response it deserved."
    I'd suggest drafting the obit yourself and making delivering it a condition of the bequest.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,246
    kle4 said:

    Sadly the covid situation in the uK is now getting substantially worse. Last 4 days of death figures 209, 191, 167, 147. Weve gone from the odd day over 100 deaths to averaging around 170 deaths per day. This with case numbers broadly flat. In other words the ratio of deaths to cases is rising substantially and it is still only early september. I would think is this continues a return to the may level of restrictions is likely

    It's rising, but it is not anywhere near mass restrictions level of justification, this chart of deaths demonstrating why.

    A better view of the recent situation.

    image

    Cases proceed hospitalisations which proceed deaths. So when cases stop rising as fast (or indeed fall), the ratio of cases to deaths rises.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,156
    edited September 10

    Prof Alice Roberts💙
    @theAliceRoberts
    ·
    2h
    The UK is carrying out a unique experiment in just ditching precautions and allowing such high numbers of cases -
    @chrischirp
    sharing this comparison at the
    @IndependentSage briefing. 1000 deaths a week has somehow become normalised.

    ==


    Yet we see no widespread public alarm as to where we are with things and certainly no clamour for lockdown or making pubs social distance.

    So maybe 1000 deaths a week is the acceptable level for this new disease at least for a while anyway?

    It depends upon who the 1000 people dying per week are.

    They seem to be either anti-vaxxers or sick oldies dying with rather than from covid.

    Hence the lack of concern from everyone else.
    Ed Conway posted the data....it is basically antivaxxers and over 80s. Under 60 and vaxxed, watch out for that bus, as that is more likely to kill you.



    Prof. Christina Pagel
    @chrischirp
    ·

    Right now, about 1,000 people are dying with Covid every week. I don't think we should be OK with this. 7/9
    It isn't a matter of being ok, it is just the fact of the matter.

    If you arent vaxxed, you are getting covid, and if you are over 50, that's bad news. And even if you are vaxxed, there are break throughs. Luckily, vaccines definitely very effective in saving you from death.

    The reality is nothing we can do about this. I wouldn't be surprised to see that on average a 100 people a day are registered as died with covid for a while yet.

    Clearly though this is the new iSAGE goal post shifting.
  • Anyway whatever we think on here its not our decision on restrictions anyway. We have to look at what the govt is likely to do
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,589

    Sadly the covid situation in the uK is now getting substantially worse. Last 4 days of death figures 209, 191, 167, 147. Weve gone from the odd day over 100 deaths to averaging around 170 deaths per day. This with case numbers broadly flat. In other words the ratio of deaths to cases is rising substantially and it is still only early september. I would think is this continues a return to the may level of restrictions is likely

    Flag....
    It's funny how these Covid, end of the world, posts always come from new usernames.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,633

    Prof Alice Roberts💙
    @theAliceRoberts
    ·
    2h
    The UK is carrying out a unique experiment in just ditching precautions and allowing such high numbers of cases -
    @chrischirp
    sharing this comparison at the
    @IndependentSage briefing. 1000 deaths a week has somehow become normalised.

    ==


    Yet we see no widespread public alarm as to where we are with things and certainly no clamour for lockdown or making pubs social distance.

    So maybe 1000 deaths a week is the acceptable level for this new disease at least for a while anyway?

    It depends upon who the 1000 people dying per week are.

    They seem to be either anti-vaxxers or sick oldies dying with rather than from covid.

    Hence the lack of concern from everyone else.
    Ed Conway posted the data....it is basically antivaxxers and over 80s. Under 60 and vaxxed, watch out for that bus, as that is more likely to kill you.



    Prof. Christina Pagel
    @chrischirp
    ·

    Right now, about 1,000 people are dying with Covid every week. I don't think we should be OK with this. 7/9
    It isn't a matter of being ok, it is just the fact of the matter.
    Indeed. The good doctor Pagel seems to think that if only we put our masks back on and there was better ventilation in schools this number would be a lot lower.

    I am afraid I am not convinced.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,609

    also if you look at the data quite a lot of deaths in the 60 to 79 category. i doubt all these are at deaths door and given vaccine uptake in that age group its highly unlikely they are all antivaxxers

    Again Ed Conway posted the data....it is very low among vaxxed in this age group....death are dominated by antivaxxers.

    The point is with delta, if you are unvaxxed just a matter of time until you get covid...whuch drives up hospitalisations...which drives up deaths.

    Now there are break through cases among vaccinated, and over 80s group who see break throughs that is dicey (although far better than without being vaxxed)...but we don't know how much that is due to those people already been very sickly.
    Perhaps. In the over 80's there is 3 times the IFR in the unvaxxed, but because 90% are vaxxed, the absolute numbers may well be equal. I am quite glad to see the rate for my age down to 0.1%.


  • kle4 said:

    Sadly the covid situation in the uK is now getting substantially worse. Last 4 days of death figures 209, 191, 167, 147. Weve gone from the odd day over 100 deaths to averaging around 170 deaths per day. This with case numbers broadly flat. In other words the ratio of deaths to cases is rising substantially and it is still only early september. I would think is this continues a return to the may level of restrictions is likely

    It's rising, but it is not anywhere near mass restrictions level of justification, this chart of deaths demonstrating why.

    A better view of the recent situation.

    image

    Cases proceed hospitalisations which proceed deaths. So when cases stop rising as fast (or indeed fall), the ratio of cases to deaths rises.
    except cases hit 50000 in july and havent got past that peak. Whereas deaths have continued to rise steadily to new highs. Also hospitalisations are above the july peak despite lower cases
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,246

    Prof Alice Roberts💙
    @theAliceRoberts
    ·
    2h
    The UK is carrying out a unique experiment in just ditching precautions and allowing such high numbers of cases -
    @chrischirp
    sharing this comparison at the
    @IndependentSage briefing. 1000 deaths a week has somehow become normalised.

    ==


    Yet we see no widespread public alarm as to where we are with things and certainly no clamour for lockdown or making pubs social distance.

    So maybe 1000 deaths a week is the acceptable level for this new disease at least for a while anyway?

    It depends upon who the 1000 people dying per week are.

    They seem to be either anti-vaxxers or sick oldies dying with rather than from covid.

    Hence the lack of concern from everyone else.
    Ed Conway posted the data....it is basically antivaxxers and over 80s. Under 60 and vaxxed, watch out for that bus, as that is more likely to kill you.
    And some (many?) of those 80+ years olds would have died this coming winter from flu in a normal season.

    To be blunt.
    Deaths by age.....

    image
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,894
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Princess Diana's death was an odd one for me. I'd been clubbing in Cambridge, and got a taxi back in the early hours. The taxi driver told me that Princess Diana had been injured in a car crash. When I got back to my digs, I turned on the TV and (from memory) there was nothing about it on (*): it was annoying, and something that we wouldn't dream of in the modern 24-hour news cycle. I stayed up, and after a while it appeared on the BBC, saying she'd been injured. I guess at that stage they knew she'd died, and were just waiting for confirmation.

    People's reactions were very odd. I am generally a royalist, and whilst I thought it was sad, it didn't really affect me deeply. My then-GF's dad was German, and a vehement republican; he apparently cried his eyes out.

    (*) I've just checked, and the BBC News 24 channel started a couple of months after her death.

    That was the day I learnt I was pregnant with one of my children. I woke early, wondered why the World Service was doing a documentary about Diana, went to do the test and it was only later that I learnt about the accident. Much more interested in my news TBH.

    I found the whole candles and votive offerings that week a huge overreaction. It was as if Britain had rediscovered its inner Catholicism. Reminiscent of nothing so much as those shrines to the Madonna you see all over Southern Italy.
    I didn't feel it, thought the reaction OTT, but I think I can understand it. She was top royalty - a public figure of great standing - plus at the same time a young and glamorous, A* list modern world celebrity. So a JFK type event.
    The People's Princess, even. Almost as good a slogan as Get Brexit Done.
    That was peak Tony, no question.
    Actually true too. Diana had a common touch that other Royals just cannot match. The Royals are really tough on those who marry in and outshine them.
    Not necessarily. The Queen Mum outshone the family she married into. Difference is that she and her husband loved each other. Charles and Di didn't. If they had their different strengths would have complemented each other and they'd have made a formidable and supportive team.

    Philip too was probably more glamorous and intelligent than his in-laws and not apparently much liked by them or by courtiers. But he and HMQ had a strong bond.

    Also both understood that the institution mattered more than individuals. If that belief - and love - are missing, it must be very difficult for outsiders.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,868

    Prof Alice Roberts💙
    @theAliceRoberts
    ·
    2h
    The UK is carrying out a unique experiment in just ditching precautions and allowing such high numbers of cases -
    @chrischirp
    sharing this comparison at the
    @IndependentSage briefing. 1000 deaths a week has somehow become normalised.

    ==


    Yet we see no widespread public alarm as to where we are with things and certainly no clamour for lockdown or making pubs social distance.

    So maybe 1000 deaths a week is the acceptable level for this new disease at least for a while anyway?

    It depends upon who the 1000 people dying per week are.

    They seem to be either anti-vaxxers or sick oldies dying with rather than from covid.

    Hence the lack of concern from everyone else.
    Ed Conway posted the data....it is basically antivaxxers and over 80s. Under 60 and vaxxed, watch out for that bus, as that is more likely to kill you.



    Prof. Christina Pagel
    @chrischirp
    ·

    Right now, about 1,000 people are dying with Covid every week. I don't think we should be OK with this. 7/9
    Why not? Everyone has had their chance to be vaccinated. The individual risk of death post vaccine is tiny.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,899

    also if you look at the data quite a lot of deaths in the 60 to 79 category. i doubt all these are at deaths door and given vaccine uptake in that age group its highly unlikely they are all antivaxxers

    Again Ed Conway posted the data....it is very low among vaxxed in this age group....death are dominated by antivaxxers.

    The point is with delta, if you are unvaxxed just a matter of time until you get covid...whuch drives up hospitalisations...which drives up deaths.

    Now there are break through cases among vaccinated, and over 80s group who see break throughs that is dicey (although far better than without being vaxxed)...but we don't know how much that is due to those people already been very sickly.
    The other question is what's the alternative? Having just enjoyed a few days in London doing 'normal' things (theatre, galleries, museums, exhibitions, pubs, bars, and restaurants) I cannot believe how good it felt.

    I'm firmly back in the 'life is to be enjoyed' camp at the moment.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,366

    Anyway whatever we think on here its not our decision on restrictions anyway. We have to look at what the govt is likely to do

    Strangely, it's not really up to the Government either any more. It's a question of what people are willing to accept.

    In lieu of any kind of enforcement, most current restrictions are meaningless.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    edited September 10

    Anyway whatever we think on here its not our decision on restrictions anyway. We have to look at what the govt is likely to do

    Restrictions are a massive imposition notwithstanding they have been popular in a time of crisis, with devastating economic impacts. The gov will really really not want to impose serious ones again unless it has no choice - I'd submit deaths would need to rise much much more for them to consider it, more than the present rises lagging cases would suggest.

    As stodge suggests, in practice most restrictions were enforced voluntarily and morally, goverment enforcement was impossible given how severe the restrictions were. Until the public panic again, they won't want more restrictions either.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,932
    IshmaelZ said:

    No pictures just text "Terrorists fly plane into building in US" so I pictured a cessna type plane flying into a 2 story Midwest farmhouse sort of building

    Sitting on a plane at Charles de Gaulle wondering why they had ampped up security and none of the TVs were working
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 3,608
    I was writing up my Ph.D when 9/11 happened, editing the second chapter all afternoon. When I finished around 6pm I logged on to Football 365 (as I usually did - Politicalbetting.com not having been founded then) and was slightly puzzled by a pop-up poll asking whether in the light of the day’s events the weekend’s football fixtures should be postponed. A little intrigued, but rather more hungry, I decided to head off home. It was only when I switched on Channel 4 News and heard Jon Snow announcing that the world’s airspace had been shut down that I realised the enormity of what had happened.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,589

    kle4 said:

    Sadly the covid situation in the uK is now getting substantially worse. Last 4 days of death figures 209, 191, 167, 147. Weve gone from the odd day over 100 deaths to averaging around 170 deaths per day. This with case numbers broadly flat. In other words the ratio of deaths to cases is rising substantially and it is still only early september. I would think is this continues a return to the may level of restrictions is likely

    It's rising, but it is not anywhere near mass restrictions level of justification, this chart of deaths demonstrating why.

    A better view of the recent situation.

    image

    Cases proceed hospitalisations which proceed deaths. So when cases stop rising as fast (or indeed fall), the ratio of cases to deaths rises.
    except cases hit 50000 in july and havent got past that peak. Whereas deaths have continued to rise steadily to new highs. Also hospitalisations are above the july peak despite lower cases
    Isn't that just a rather boring consequence of deaths lagging cases?

    The number I would fixate on is number in hospital, and in particular those on mechanical ventilators.

    If that is showing a sustained upward trend, then we need to get worried.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,156
    edited September 10

    also if you look at the data quite a lot of deaths in the 60 to 79 category. i doubt all these are at deaths door and given vaccine uptake in that age group its highly unlikely they are all antivaxxers

    Again Ed Conway posted the data....it is very low among vaxxed in this age group....death are dominated by antivaxxers.

    The point is with delta, if you are unvaxxed just a matter of time until you get covid...whuch drives up hospitalisations...which drives up deaths.

    Now there are break through cases among vaccinated, and over 80s group who see break throughs that is dicey (although far better than without being vaxxed)...but we don't know how much that is due to those people already been very sickly.
    The other question is what's the alternative? Having just enjoyed a few days in London doing 'normal' things (theatre, galleries, museums, exhibitions, pubs, bars, and restaurants) I cannot believe how good it felt.

    I'm firmly back in the 'life is to be enjoyed' camp at the moment.
    Prison Island is the only other alternative....

    We do just have to come to terms with the fact we have a new disease that kills a substantial number of people, but being vaccinated cuts that risk dramatically. And hopefully in time better vaccines and better treatments.

    It may well be that covid crowds out flu and that a chunk of those dying would have been done in by flu instead.

    If you aren't vaccinated, well good luck playing russian roulette.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,022
    edited September 10
    For any who haven't seen it this is a gripping documentary on Bush during September 11th:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000z8p5/911-inside-the-presidents-war-room
This discussion has been closed.