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Biden’s legacy looks set to be the one who lost Afghanistan – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    DavidL said:

    Reddit is something I am not really familiar with. It's a sort of dumbed down Twitter, yes?
    Yes and no. It's thematically sorted into subreddits, and contributions get up or down voted, which both in theory make it easier to find higher quality stuff on subjects you are interested in. In theory.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    Well the flights are starting. One US State department plane just took off, and surprisingly there looks like there might be a Turkish Airlines 777 taxiing for departure to Istanbul.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,202
    @Sandpit

    (I forgot, Clinton also came out of nowhere.)

    I think you are absolutely right: The most likely President in 2024 is NOTA.

    Harris is a terrible candidate. Trump is a terrible candidate who will be four years older than in 2020.

    My “most likely scenario” is that the Trump protégés (DeSantis, Hayley) hold back for the big man… but for one reason or another (illness, incapacitation) he doesn’t stand or is forced out early.

    In which case, it could be anyone: Hawley? Sasse?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,856
    On topic I think Mike is right. Biden already had the air of a bumbling incompetent, really struggling to have a grip on the real world or complete something hard, like a sentence. Now he has a full on disaster on his watch and it confirms that he has no grip at all. Yes, many others are also responsible for this disaster over the last 20 years but he is in the Oval Office so he gets the blame.

    So damaged goods become an embarrassment. And he doesn't run again. The question now is how long his Presidency lasts. The full term seems ambitious.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,917
    edited August 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    @Sandpit

    (I forgot, Clinton also came out of nowhere.)

    I think you are absolutely right: The most likely President in 2024 is NOTA.

    Harris is a terrible candidate. Trump is a terrible candidate who will be four years older than in 2020.

    My “most likely scenario” is that the Trump protégés (DeSantis, Hayley) hold back for the big man… but for one reason or another (illness, incapacitation) he doesn’t stand or is forced out early.

    In which case, it could be anyone: Hawley? Sasse?

    Are we giving up on the Trumplings? Ivanka in particular seems reasonably popular, has the Trump name allied to RINO (so far as anyone can tell) politics and will rival Kamala for the "time for a woman" vote.

    ETA: on the GOP front, my plan is to wait and see which governor has the best Covid tale to tell.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,202

    rcs1000 said:

    @Sandpit

    (I forgot, Clinton also came out of nowhere.)

    I think you are absolutely right: The most likely President in 2024 is NOTA.

    Harris is a terrible candidate. Trump is a terrible candidate who will be four years older than in 2020.

    My “most likely scenario” is that the Trump protégés (DeSantis, Hayley) hold back for the big man… but for one reason or another (illness, incapacitation) he doesn’t stand or is forced out early.

    In which case, it could be anyone: Hawley? Sasse?

    Are we giving up on the Trumplings? Ivanka in particular seems reasonably popular, has the Trump name allied to RINO (so far as anyone can tell) politics and will rival Kamala for the "time for a woman" vote.
    What does DeSantis do if Ivanka or Eric is running?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,749
    edited August 2021
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    rcs1000 said:

    @Sandpit

    (I forgot, Clinton also came out of nowhere.)

    I think you are absolutely right: The most likely President in 2024 is NOTA.

    Harris is a terrible candidate. Trump is a terrible candidate who will be four years older than in 2020.

    My “most likely scenario” is that the Trump protégés (DeSantis, Hayley) hold back for the big man… but for one reason or another (illness, incapacitation) he doesn’t stand or is forced out early.

    In which case, it could be anyone: Hawley? Sasse?

    Agreed, we might have quite the field of non-runners, with both the RNC “Establishment” and Team Trump trying to get their favoured candidate selected early in the process. We could have only three or four left in the race after Iowa and NH.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Guardian sums it up well.

    "The fall of Kabul: a 20-year mission collapses in a single day"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/15/the-fall-of-kabul-a-20-year-mission-collapses-in-a-single-day

    It's a good headline, though given the 'mission' was never really achieved beyond the most initial of aims, with reports for years of Taliban strength, I dare say the collapse was not in a single day, despite the dramatic conclusion in the last weeks.
    Indeed, taliban attacks had been increasing since the start of 2020. The amount of territory nominally controlled by the afghan government has been slowly but steadily decreasing for the last few years.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @Sandpit

    (I forgot, Clinton also came out of nowhere.)

    I think you are absolutely right: The most likely President in 2024 is NOTA.

    Harris is a terrible candidate. Trump is a terrible candidate who will be four years older than in 2020.

    My “most likely scenario” is that the Trump protégés (DeSantis, Hayley) hold back for the big man… but for one reason or another (illness, incapacitation) he doesn’t stand or is forced out early.

    In which case, it could be anyone: Hawley? Sasse?

    Are we giving up on the Trumplings? Ivanka in particular seems reasonably popular, has the Trump name allied to RINO (so far as anyone can tell) politics and will rival Kamala for the "time for a woman" vote.
    What does DeSantis do if Ivanka or Eric is running?
    Covid may well determine the GOP nominee. Wait two years then row in behind whichever Republican governor has the best Covid story (ie has not killed half the state but is different from the Biden line on masks and vaccines). If none then look for a senator or a Trumpling.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,202
    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,378
    .
    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    So long as the evacuation runs reasonably smoothly, which granted, is not a given. I don't believe this will be seen as a defining moment.

    But, what a monumental waste of lives and capital over the last twenty years. This is as much Bush and Blair's legacy as it is Biden's error. Still, Biden was holding the parcel when the music stopped, so the whole 20 year fiasco is his problem.

    One thing Trump got right was his assertion over the last four and a half years is that US intelligence services are shockingly embarrassing. It's all well and good the mini-Trumpsters on here bemoaning Biden taking summer siestas at Camp David whilst all this is going on, where were military intelligence and the CIA?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Just laid the Dems for the presidency @1.78 because that's way too short this far out.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I see the GOP are running on the twin platform of "Biden has Doomed the Afghan people" and "it is completely unacceptable to accept any Afghan refugees"
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    dixiedean said:

    Yokes said:

    It appears some of the gunfire at Kabul airport was US troops keeping the crowds of Afghans at bay.

    Yes, the Taliban, leadership at least, seem to be quite determined to allow people to leave. I find this interesting.
    They've won. Massacres and executions before the only people who can prevent them have left makes no sense.
    And yet they do seem somewhat different from the 1990's taliban in that, so far. I wonder what has changed.
    Men with guns tend to be young. So many of the new lot will be those that the occupation recruited.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @Sandpit

    (I forgot, Clinton also came out of nowhere.)

    I think you are absolutely right: The most likely President in 2024 is NOTA.

    Harris is a terrible candidate. Trump is a terrible candidate who will be four years older than in 2020.

    My “most likely scenario” is that the Trump protégés (DeSantis, Hayley) hold back for the big man… but for one reason or another (illness, incapacitation) he doesn’t stand or is forced out early.

    In which case, it could be anyone: Hawley? Sasse?

    Are we giving up on the Trumplings? Ivanka in particular seems reasonably popular, has the Trump name allied to RINO (so far as anyone can tell) politics and will rival Kamala for the "time for a woman" vote.
    What does DeSantis do if Ivanka or Eric is running?
    I think if he kills off a another 20k or So Floridians that should up his GOP approval numbers.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,390
    Alistair said:

    I see the GOP are running on the twin platform of "Biden has Doomed the Afghan people" and "it is completely unacceptable to accept any Afghan refugees"

    Biden problem was that Trump said he was going to remove all American troops, so it would have been as completely unacceptable for their to be American troop deaths.

    Biden really couldn't win here, all options provided equally good means of attack.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706
    Alistair said:

    Just laid the Dems for the presidency @1.78 because that's way too short this far out.

    Slightly better than evens? Seems fair to me. Not that I want to tie money up for so long at these odds.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,217
    sarissa said:

    Charles said:

    Pope Francis 'wants to hold Mass in Scotland' during COP26 summit in Glasgow

    The report quotes a source saying the Pope would like to say a Mass for Scots.

    “It would have to fit in with his address to the conference and his meetings with the bishops. There is some doubt about whether it can be fitted in, but the Pope says Mass every day and would like to say a Mass for the people of Scotland.“

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/pope-francis-wants-hold-mass-24763099.amp

    Why is that news/controversial? I’m sure there will be some logistics in making it COVID compliant but that’s it
    Wait until Nicola asks him to remove incorrect references to God creating man and woman.
    He'd better watch it.

    Mermaids will report him to Police Scotland for violent hate-speech.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706
    edited August 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    If Trump gets the nomination he loses again, against any Democrat, and he will get the nomination if he runs.

    Biden and Johnson have made a mess out of leaving Afghanistan, particularly being caught flatfooted in the last months.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    Defence Secretary Ben Wallace says they got 300 Brits out of Afghanistan out yesterday- and want to get another 700 people out over the next 36 / 48 hours. #bbcbreakfast
    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1427157488340766723
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    Just laid the Dems for the presidency @1.78 because that's way too short this far out.

    Slightly better than evens? Seems fair to me. Not that I want to tie money up for so long at these odds.
    Exceedingly a trading bet. The Dems were frequently odds against in 2020 pre election. There is no way they do not lengthen from here right now.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    Defence Secretary Ben Wallace says he does "not believe" everyone the UK wants to get out of Afghanistan will get out in time as promised. "There will be some people left behind" #bbcbreakfast
    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1427157860497203203
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,378
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    If Trump gets the nomination he loses again, against any Democrat, and he will get it if he runs.

    Biden and Johnson have made a mess out of leaving Afghanistan, particularly being caught flatfooted in the last months.
    I really don't see this as a problem for Johnson whatsoever. I would like to, but I don't.

    Raab taking his holiday at the same time the withdrawal from Afghanistan was pencilled in, should not be so fortunate.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    eek said:

    Alistair said:

    I see the GOP are running on the twin platform of "Biden has Doomed the Afghan people" and "it is completely unacceptable to accept any Afghan refugees"

    Biden problem was that Trump said he was going to remove all American troops, so it would have been as completely unacceptable for their to be American troop deaths.

    Biden really couldn't win here, all options provided equally good means of attack.
    The proposed Afghan withdrawal was the greatest trick Trump ever played.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706
    MattW said:

    sarissa said:

    Charles said:

    Pope Francis 'wants to hold Mass in Scotland' during COP26 summit in Glasgow

    The report quotes a source saying the Pope would like to say a Mass for Scots.

    “It would have to fit in with his address to the conference and his meetings with the bishops. There is some doubt about whether it can be fitted in, but the Pope says Mass every day and would like to say a Mass for the people of Scotland.“

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/pope-francis-wants-hold-mass-24763099.amp

    Why is that news/controversial? I’m sure there will be some logistics in making it COVID compliant but that’s it
    Wait until Nicola asks him to remove incorrect references to God creating man and woman.
    He'd better watch it.

    Mermaids will report him to Police Scotland for violent hate-speech.
    Are you saying that Catholic Mass is illegal in Scotland?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706

    eek said:

    Alistair said:

    I see the GOP are running on the twin platform of "Biden has Doomed the Afghan people" and "it is completely unacceptable to accept any Afghan refugees"

    Biden problem was that Trump said he was going to remove all American troops, so it would have been as completely unacceptable for their to be American troop deaths.

    Biden really couldn't win here, all options provided equally good means of attack.
    The proposed Afghan withdrawal was the greatest trick Trump ever played.
    Of course, it only works as a trick if he knew he was a loser.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Varoufakis has competition for "worst take":

    Whatever you think of the Taliban their seemingly imminent victory is a historic defeat of colonialism and imperialism. This should be the main narrative of media around the world, rather than the red herrings about women's rights etc that we are being sold.


    https://twitter.com/RmSalih/status/1426823831981903873?s=20
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    Defence Secretary Ben Wallace lays the blame for the catastrophe happening in Afghanistan on the Americans: "It is of deep regret we have got to this position...I believe the Donald Trump deal got us to where we are today." #bbcbreakfast
    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1427158563634417664
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,761
    Fascinating look into the behind the scenes debates with Biden in last few months:


    "The president told his national security team, including Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and his national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, that he was convinced that no matter what the United States did, Afghanistan was almost certainly headed into another civil war — one Washington could not prevent, but also, in his view, one it could not be drawn into."

    "If the Afghan government could not hold off the Taliban now, aides said he asked, when would they be able to? None of the Pentagon officials could answer the question."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/14/us/afghanistan-biden.html
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706
    Taliban fighting US security in the terminal building sounds like the end of flights out.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,761
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Alistair said:

    I see the GOP are running on the twin platform of "Biden has Doomed the Afghan people" and "it is completely unacceptable to accept any Afghan refugees"

    Biden problem was that Trump said he was going to remove all American troops, so it would have been as completely unacceptable for their to be American troop deaths.

    Biden really couldn't win here, all options provided equally good means of attack.
    The proposed Afghan withdrawal was the greatest trick Trump ever played.
    Of course, it only works as a trick if he knew he was a loser.
    The state of the modern GOP is such that had Trump won again they would just have said this collapse was all lies on CNN that Kabul had fallen and the US had won a famous victory and it was just the loony left trying to undermine the brave US military etc etc. And also possible the fault of black people or mexicans somehow or other.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited August 2021
    Foxy said:

    Taliban fighting US security in the terminal building sounds like the end of flights out.
    I think the last commercial flight - a Turkish Airlines 777 is due to depart.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,761

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    If Trump gets the nomination he loses again, against any Democrat, and he will get it if he runs.

    Biden and Johnson have made a mess out of leaving Afghanistan, particularly being caught flatfooted in the last months.
    I really don't see this as a problem for Johnson whatsoever. I would like to, but I don't.

    Raab taking his holiday at the same time the withdrawal from Afghanistan was pencilled in, should not be so fortunate.
    That last bit is harsh. Even senior ministers need a break. If covid has taught us nothing else it is that a lot of work can be done over the Internet these days.
  • eek said:

    Alistair said:

    I see the GOP are running on the twin platform of "Biden has Doomed the Afghan people" and "it is completely unacceptable to accept any Afghan refugees"

    Biden problem was that Trump said he was going to remove all American troops, so it would have been as completely unacceptable for their to be American troop deaths.

    Biden really couldn't win here, all options provided equally good means of attack.
    The proposed Afghan withdrawal was the greatest trick Trump ever played.
    It has been said that Trump was persuaded not to withdraw from Afghanistan because it had been within living memory (at least the urban parts) a modern, secular state (as I posted here a couple of threads back).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595

    Foxy said:

    Taliban fighting US security in the terminal building sounds like the end of flights out.
    I think the last commercial flight - a Turkish Airlines 777 has already taken off
    There’s a Turkish plane on FlightRadar that shows as still being in Kabul. Don’t want to imagine the discussions going on with the military, the airline, their insurers and the pilots, all trying to find a way to get that plane off the ground before the Taliban get to it.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,917
    edited August 2021

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    If Trump gets the nomination he loses again, against any Democrat, and he will get it if he runs.

    Biden and Johnson have made a mess out of leaving Afghanistan, particularly being caught flatfooted in the last months.
    I really don't see this as a problem for Johnson whatsoever. I would like to, but I don't.

    Raab taking his holiday at the same time the withdrawal from Afghanistan was pencilled in, should not be so fortunate.
    That last bit is harsh. Even senior ministers need a break. If covid has taught us nothing else it is that a lot of work can be done over the Internet these days.
    The word is that Raab was advised not to head for the beach while Afghanistan approached boiling point.

    Hmm. Raab goes. Rishi to Foreign Office. End of challenges to Boris?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Alistair said:

    I see the GOP are running on the twin platform of "Biden has Doomed the Afghan people" and "it is completely unacceptable to accept any Afghan refugees"

    Biden problem was that Trump said he was going to remove all American troops, so it would have been as completely unacceptable for their to be American troop deaths.

    Biden really couldn't win here, all options provided equally good means of attack.
    The proposed Afghan withdrawal was the greatest trick Trump ever played.
    Of course, it only works as a trick if he knew he was a loser.
    If Trump had won and this chaos happened on his watch I suspect the spin would have been: We gave them all the equipment needed to defend themselves; not my fault these losers screwed up. Fox News and the base would have lapped it up. Job done.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    If Trump gets the nomination he loses again, against any Democrat, and he will get it if he runs.

    Biden and Johnson have made a mess out of leaving Afghanistan, particularly being caught flatfooted in the last months.
    I really don't see this as a problem for Johnson whatsoever. I would like to, but I don't.

    Raab taking his holiday at the same time the withdrawal from Afghanistan was pencilled in, should not be so fortunate.
    That last bit is harsh. Even senior ministers need a break. If covid has taught us nothing else it is that a lot of work can be done over the Internet these days.
    The word is that Raab was advised not to head for the beach while Afghanistan approached boiling point.

    Hmm. Raab goes. Rishi to Foreign Office. End of challenges to Boris?
    He could have also been advised the exact opposite, that it doesn't really matter where he is in the grand scheme of things.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    I'm not sure. If things continue as they are - not just on Afghanistan but on the immigration crisis, parent backlash against CRT in swing states and the rise in inflation - Trump's line will be "I told you this is what would happen." I'm not sure how Biden or Harris counteract this
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,467
    I seem to have finally come across someone at work who sends emails in groups of 3, containing a seemingly random spew of consciousness.

    Brilliant start to the week!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,378

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    If Trump gets the nomination he loses again, against any Democrat, and he will get it if he runs.

    Biden and Johnson have made a mess out of leaving Afghanistan, particularly being caught flatfooted in the last months.
    I really don't see this as a problem for Johnson whatsoever. I would like to, but I don't.

    Raab taking his holiday at the same time the withdrawal from Afghanistan was pencilled in, should not be so fortunate.
    That last bit is harsh. Even senior ministers need a break. If covid has taught us nothing else it is that a lot of work can be done over the Internet these days.
    So they do. The point is Dominic, from what I can gather was warned by his big boss, to delay his holibobs.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    If Trump gets the nomination he loses again, against any Democrat, and he will get it if he runs.

    Biden and Johnson have made a mess out of leaving Afghanistan, particularly being caught flatfooted in the last months.
    I really don't see this as a problem for Johnson whatsoever. I would like to, but I don't.

    Raab taking his holiday at the same time the withdrawal from Afghanistan was pencilled in, should not be so fortunate.
    That last bit is harsh. Even senior ministers need a break. If covid has taught us nothing else it is that a lot of work can be done over the Internet these days.
    So they do. The point is Dominic, from what I can gather was warned by his big boss, to delay his holibobs.
    Was it stated where the advise came from?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Alistair said:

    I see the GOP are running on the twin platform of "Biden has Doomed the Afghan people" and "it is completely unacceptable to accept any Afghan refugees"

    Biden problem was that Trump said he was going to remove all American troops, so it would have been as completely unacceptable for their to be American troop deaths.

    Biden really couldn't win here, all options provided equally good means of attack.
    The proposed Afghan withdrawal was the greatest trick Trump ever played.
    Of course, it only works as a trick if he knew he was a loser.
    The state of the modern GOP is such that had Trump won again they would just have said this collapse was all lies on CNN that Kabul had fallen and the US had won a famous victory and it was just the loony left trying to undermine the brave US military etc etc. And also possible the fault of black people or mexicans somehow or other.
    Not Mexicans (or Hispanics). They are increasingly voting for the GOP....:)
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,164
    edited August 2021
    Sandpit said:

    Well the flights are starting. One US State department plane just took off, and surprisingly there looks like there might be a Turkish Airlines 777 taxiing for departure to Istanbul.

    Less surprising, if you think the Turks may be playing some sort of key role here.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Fascinating look into the behind the scenes debates with Biden in last few months:


    "The president told his national security team, including Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and his national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, that he was convinced that no matter what the United States did, Afghanistan was almost certainly headed into another civil war — one Washington could not prevent, but also, in his view, one it could not be drawn into."

    "If the Afghan government could not hold off the Taliban now, aides said he asked, when would they be able to? None of the Pentagon officials could answer the question."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/14/us/afghanistan-biden.html

    Sounds pretty clear and hard headed to me, no matter how many (including people like DavidL on here) are determined to continue to believe that Biden has a brain full of mush and struggles to tie his shoe laces.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Statement from Kabul Airport: Airport is now closed.

    Chaos at the airport with thousands of Afghans desperately trying to leave.

    The airport is currently controlled by the Americans and their focus is to evacuate citizens and diplomatic staff


    https://twitter.com/BBCYaldaHakim/status/1427162893406068739?s=20
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348

    eek said:

    Alistair said:

    I see the GOP are running on the twin platform of "Biden has Doomed the Afghan people" and "it is completely unacceptable to accept any Afghan refugees"

    Biden problem was that Trump said he was going to remove all American troops, so it would have been as completely unacceptable for their to be American troop deaths.

    Biden really couldn't win here, all options provided equally good means of attack.
    The proposed Afghan withdrawal was the greatest trick Trump ever played.
    It has been said that Trump was persuaded not to withdraw from Afghanistan because it had been within living memory (at least the urban parts) a modern, secular state (as I posted here a couple of threads back).
    Quite a few "Islamic" countries were like that, in the 60s and 70s - quite cosmopolitan in parts of the capital. Untouched outside that....

    The big change was the Islamic revival. During the Cold War, it was all about variations on "socialism" - secular state, Progress etc. Think Atatürk. At the end of the Cold War, the support from the USSR went away and the Islamic Revival began - on the basis of the total failure of the secular dictatorships to deliver progress and anything like decent government.

    In Pakistan, there was the added feature of the intelligence services deliberately "weaponising" the more funky style of Islam for potential use against India. The Mumbai attacks were an accidental weapon release, really.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,378
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    If Trump gets the nomination he loses again, against any Democrat, and he will get it if he runs.

    Biden and Johnson have made a mess out of leaving Afghanistan, particularly being caught flatfooted in the last months.
    I really don't see this as a problem for Johnson whatsoever. I would like to, but I don't.

    Raab taking his holiday at the same time the withdrawal from Afghanistan was pencilled in, should not be so fortunate.
    That last bit is harsh. Even senior ministers need a break. If covid has taught us nothing else it is that a lot of work can be done over the Internet these days.
    So they do. The point is Dominic, from what I can gather was warned by his big boss, to delay his holibobs.
    Was it stated where the advise came from?
    Whoever the advice comes from, Boris is perfectly entitled to consider it unwise that Raab ignored it, thus leaving Boris to deal with the unfolding crisis.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,164
    edited August 2021
    alex_ said:

    Fascinating look into the behind the scenes debates with Biden in last few months:


    "The president told his national security team, including Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and his national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, that he was convinced that no matter what the United States did, Afghanistan was almost certainly headed into another civil war — one Washington could not prevent, but also, in his view, one it could not be drawn into."

    "If the Afghan government could not hold off the Taliban now, aides said he asked, when would they be able to? None of the Pentagon officials could answer the question."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/14/us/afghanistan-biden.html

    Sounds pretty clear and hard headed to me, no matter how many (including people like DavidL on here) are determined to continue to believe that Biden has a brain full of mush and struggles to tie his shoe laces.
    That's largely been Republican spin so far. Trump himself has at times appeared a bit bemused that this hasn't turned out to be the case. As with the election, he's got nearer to a state of mental health where he believes everything he says must be true, which I think is connected to his signs of bemusement on the topic.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Taliban fighting US security in the terminal building sounds like the end of flights out.
    I think the last commercial flight - a Turkish Airlines 777 has already taken off
    There’s a Turkish plane on FlightRadar that shows as still being in Kabul. Don’t want to imagine the discussions going on with the military, the airline, their insurers and the pilots, all trying to find a way to get that plane off the ground before the Taliban get to it.
    Yes - after I posted a report I'd seen on Twitter I double checked FlightRadar - still on the ground.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited August 2021
    Charles said:

    Pope Francis 'wants to hold Mass in Scotland' during COP26 summit in Glasgow

    The report quotes a source saying the Pope would like to say a Mass for Scots.

    “It would have to fit in with his address to the conference and his meetings with the bishops. There is some doubt about whether it can be fitted in, but the Pope says Mass every day and would like to say a Mass for the people of Scotland.“

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/pope-francis-wants-hold-mass-24763099.amp

    Why is that news/controversial? I’m sure there will be some logistics in making it COVID compliant but that’s it
    Well, it’s not controversial (does absolutely everything we discuss on here have to be controversial?), but it is most certainly news! Papal visits are extremely rare and have historically been extremely popular events.

    There have only ever been two papal visits to Scotland:

    5th century: conversion of Scotland to Christianity begins
    1982 papal visit
    2010 papal visit
    2021 papal visit

    So, yes Charles, this is news! (Average is about one visit per 500 years.)

    The 1982 visit is imprinted on my childhood memory. It was immense.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    alex_ said:

    Fascinating look into the behind the scenes debates with Biden in last few months:


    "The president told his national security team, including Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and his national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, that he was convinced that no matter what the United States did, Afghanistan was almost certainly headed into another civil war — one Washington could not prevent, but also, in his view, one it could not be drawn into."

    "If the Afghan government could not hold off the Taliban now, aides said he asked, when would they be able to? None of the Pentagon officials could answer the question."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/14/us/afghanistan-biden.html

    Sounds pretty clear and hard headed to me, no matter how many (including people like DavidL on here) are determined to continue to believe that Biden has a brain full of mush and struggles to tie his shoe laces.
    If the advice was that the 300,000 strong US trained and equipped army was helpless against 90,000 taliban, the answer should be: after we have rethought our training and equiping strategy, and taken another five years to do it fucking properly. Never seen a more spineless argument.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,202
    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    I'm not sure. If things continue as they are - not just on Afghanistan but on the immigration crisis, parent backlash against CRT in swing states and the rise in inflation - Trump's line will be "I told you this is what would happen." I'm not sure how Biden or Harris counteract this
    Rise in inflation? Americans have fixed interest mortgages.

    A modest rise in inflation is manna from Heaven for most Americans.

    Right now, the US is booming. It may or may not continue to boom, and it may also be a little generous to attribute that success to Biden.

    But right now, unemployment is falling and wages rising.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    alex_ said:

    Fascinating look into the behind the scenes debates with Biden in last few months:


    "The president told his national security team, including Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and his national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, that he was convinced that no matter what the United States did, Afghanistan was almost certainly headed into another civil war — one Washington could not prevent, but also, in his view, one it could not be drawn into."

    "If the Afghan government could not hold off the Taliban now, aides said he asked, when would they be able to? None of the Pentagon officials could answer the question."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/14/us/afghanistan-biden.html

    Sounds pretty clear and hard headed to me, no matter how many (including people like DavidL on here) are determined to continue to believe that Biden has a brain full of mush and struggles to tie his shoe laces.
    Then what we're seeing is a catastrophic failure to plan for such an outcome - that buck sits on Biden's desk, not Trump's (even if Trump's dud deal is at the root of this).
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    Fascinating look into the behind the scenes debates with Biden in last few months:


    "The president told his national security team, including Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and his national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, that he was convinced that no matter what the United States did, Afghanistan was almost certainly headed into another civil war — one Washington could not prevent, but also, in his view, one it could not be drawn into."

    "If the Afghan government could not hold off the Taliban now, aides said he asked, when would they be able to? None of the Pentagon officials could answer the question."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/14/us/afghanistan-biden.html

    Sounds pretty clear and hard headed to me, no matter how many (including people like DavidL on here) are determined to continue to believe that Biden has a brain full of mush and struggles to tie his shoe laces.
    That's largely been Republican spin so far. Trump himself has appeared a bit bemused at times that this prediction hasn't appeared to be the case.
    And, from those who should know better, the consequences of a stutter he has had his entire life.
  • To be fair to Raab him being on holiday wouldn't have made a difference. The west is absolutely impotent here.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    To be fair to Raab him being on holiday wouldn't have made a difference. The west is absolutely impotent here.

    Not really the point. If I missed my mother's funeral to attend a football match that wouldn't make a difference either. Optics, innit.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    IshmaelZ said:

    alex_ said:

    Fascinating look into the behind the scenes debates with Biden in last few months:


    "The president told his national security team, including Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and his national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, that he was convinced that no matter what the United States did, Afghanistan was almost certainly headed into another civil war — one Washington could not prevent, but also, in his view, one it could not be drawn into."

    "If the Afghan government could not hold off the Taliban now, aides said he asked, when would they be able to? None of the Pentagon officials could answer the question."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/14/us/afghanistan-biden.html

    Sounds pretty clear and hard headed to me, no matter how many (including people like DavidL on here) are determined to continue to believe that Biden has a brain full of mush and struggles to tie his shoe laces.
    If the advice was that the 300,000 strong US trained and equipped army was helpless against 90,000 taliban, the answer should be: after we have rethought our training and equiping strategy, and taken another five years to do it fucking properly. Never seen a more spineless argument.
    The advice could well have been that no matter what you put in, a secular(ish) government in Afghanistan will not provide the ideological structure that people will actually die in a ditch to defend.

    {Vladimiro Lenin Ilich Montesinos Torres to the red courtesy phone, please}
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    Reports this morning of Al Qaeda and IS prisoners being released from jails across Afghanistan.

    They will all be heading to the West to set up terrorist cells as the Biden and Harris disaster continues
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    edited August 2021

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Taliban fighting US security in the terminal building sounds like the end of flights out.
    I think the last commercial flight - a Turkish Airlines 777 has already taken off
    There’s a Turkish plane on FlightRadar that shows as still being in Kabul. Don’t want to imagine the discussions going on with the military, the airline, their insurers and the pilots, all trying to find a way to get that plane off the ground before the Taliban get to it.
    Yes - after I posted a report I'd seen on Twitter I double checked FlightRadar - still on the ground.
    I’m not too sure they’re going to get it out now, could be in for a long wait. Hopefully they have a hangar big enough to hide it!

    One small but unknown plane just landed, turned around and took off again. Probably US mil or CIA.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    To be fair to Raab him being on holiday wouldn't have made a difference. The west is absolutely impotent here.

    Not really the point. If I missed my mother's funeral to attend a football match that wouldn't make a difference either. Optics, innit.
    Of course! Though knowing Clown he will probably reward Raab with a promotion. Thanks to Raab taking one for the team everyone is pointing the finger at him and not at ex Foreign Secretary and current Prime Minister Coco the Clown. Like Williamson having absolute morons in the cabinet is a needed distraction from the pillock in chief.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098

    Charles said:

    Pope Francis 'wants to hold Mass in Scotland' during COP26 summit in Glasgow

    The report quotes a source saying the Pope would like to say a Mass for Scots.

    “It would have to fit in with his address to the conference and his meetings with the bishops. There is some doubt about whether it can be fitted in, but the Pope says Mass every day and would like to say a Mass for the people of Scotland.“

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/pope-francis-wants-hold-mass-24763099.amp

    Why is that news/controversial? I’m sure there will be some logistics in making it COVID compliant but that’s it
    Well, it’s not controversial (does absolutely everything we discuss on here have to be controversial?), but it is most certainly news! Papal visits are extremely rare and have historically been extremely popular events.

    There have only ever been two papal visits to Scotland:

    5th century: conversion of Scotland to Christianity begins
    1982 papal visit
    2010 papal visit
    2021 papal visit

    So, yes Charles, this is news! (Average is about one visit per 500 years.)

    The 1982 visit is imprinted on my childhood memory. It was immense.
    Percentage wise there are more Catholics in Scotland than England, 16% of the population to 10%, so it makes sense for the Pope to go. Scotland is the second most Catholic part of the British isles after Ireland.

    Of course the last Queen of Scotland, Mary Queen of Scots was a Catholic still even when her cousin Elizabeth 1st was a Protestant Queen of England
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    alex_ said:

    Fascinating look into the behind the scenes debates with Biden in last few months:


    "The president told his national security team, including Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and his national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, that he was convinced that no matter what the United States did, Afghanistan was almost certainly headed into another civil war — one Washington could not prevent, but also, in his view, one it could not be drawn into."

    "If the Afghan government could not hold off the Taliban now, aides said he asked, when would they be able to? None of the Pentagon officials could answer the question."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/14/us/afghanistan-biden.html

    Sounds pretty clear and hard headed to me, no matter how many (including people like DavidL on here) are determined to continue to believe that Biden has a brain full of mush and struggles to tie his shoe laces.
    If the advice was that the 300,000 strong US trained and equipped army was helpless against 90,000 taliban, the answer should be: after we have rethought our training and equiping strategy, and taken another five years to do it fucking properly. Never seen a more spineless argument.
    The advice could well have been that no matter what you put in, a secular(ish) government in Afghanistan will not provide the ideological structure that people will actually die in a ditch to defend.

    {Vladimiro Lenin Ilich Montesinos Torres to the red courtesy phone, please}
    Lots of people will go to great lengths to avoid being stoned, decapitated and hanged, as a glance at Kabul airport shows. If secular government doesn't fly find a slightly nicer kinda religious bod to run the place. You can't just sit on your arse and write off 20 years and 5,000 lives and $100bn and say it was all too difficult, all along.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,467
    HYUFD said:

    Reports this morning of Al Qaeda and IS prisoners being released from jails across Afghanistan.

    They will all be heading to the West to set up terrorist cells as the Biden and Harris disaster continues

    How many did Trump release?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,749
    alex_ said:

    Fascinating look into the behind the scenes debates with Biden in last few months:


    "The president told his national security team, including Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and his national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, that he was convinced that no matter what the United States did, Afghanistan was almost certainly headed into another civil war — one Washington could not prevent, but also, in his view, one it could not be drawn into."

    "If the Afghan government could not hold off the Taliban now, aides said he asked, when would they be able to? None of the Pentagon officials could answer the question."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/14/us/afghanistan-biden.html

    Sounds pretty clear and hard headed to me, no matter how many (including people like DavidL on here) are determined to continue to believe that Biden has a brain full of mush and struggles to tie his shoe laces.
    Yes clever strategic thinker Biden. It was of course in his hard headed plan to have thousands of people stranded on a runway, some of us are just too silly to understand his 4D chess game plan.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098

    HYUFD said:

    Reports this morning of Al Qaeda and IS prisoners being released from jails across Afghanistan.

    They will all be heading to the West to set up terrorist cells as the Biden and Harris disaster continues

    How many did Trump release?
    None as the jails were still in Afghan government hands when he left office.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585

    To be fair to Raab him being on holiday wouldn't have made a difference. The west is absolutely impotent here.

    The original decision to pull out of Afghanistan wasn't an example of the West being impotent, it was a deliberate decision.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,378

    HYUFD said:

    Reports this morning of Al Qaeda and IS prisoners being released from jails across Afghanistan.

    They will all be heading to the West to set up terrorist cells as the Biden and Harris disaster continues

    How many did Trump release?
    5000, but they were clearly good Trump supporting Jihadis that HYUFD approves of.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    Harris' latest approval rating has her on just 46%, even lower than the 47% Trump got in 2020.

    Never mind winning the election, Trump could even win the popular vote against Harris, she is Hillary 2 in personality but without Hillary's centrist politics
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,467
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Reports this morning of Al Qaeda and IS prisoners being released from jails across Afghanistan.

    They will all be heading to the West to set up terrorist cells as the Biden and Harris disaster continues

    How many did Trump release?
    None as the jails were still in Afghan government hands when he left office.
    Incorrect. The correct answer is 5,000. You’re welcome.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,672

    Charles said:

    Pope Francis 'wants to hold Mass in Scotland' during COP26 summit in Glasgow

    The report quotes a source saying the Pope would like to say a Mass for Scots.

    “It would have to fit in with his address to the conference and his meetings with the bishops. There is some doubt about whether it can be fitted in, but the Pope says Mass every day and would like to say a Mass for the people of Scotland.“

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/pope-francis-wants-hold-mass-24763099.amp

    Why is that news/controversial? I’m sure there will be some logistics in making it COVID compliant but that’s it
    Well, it’s not controversial (does absolutely everything we discuss on here have to be controversial?), but it is most certainly news! Papal visits are extremely rare and have historically been extremely popular events.

    There have only ever been two papal visits to Scotland:

    5th century: conversion of Scotland to Christianity begins
    1982 papal visit
    2010 papal visit
    2021 papal visit

    So, yes Charles, this is news! (Average is about one visit per 500 years.)

    The 1982 visit is imprinted on my childhood memory. It was immense.
    Making an average like that is faintly ridiculous, given that papal travel outside Rome, yet alone Italy, was exceptionally rare before the last century.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_travel
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,164
    edited August 2021
    So much support for the Taliban from Pakistan on twitter. If any nation's going to have any crucial role, or be able to manage the regime's external relations to any significant extent, it's this one.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    IshmaelZ said:

    alex_ said:

    Fascinating look into the behind the scenes debates with Biden in last few months:


    "The president told his national security team, including Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and his national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, that he was convinced that no matter what the United States did, Afghanistan was almost certainly headed into another civil war — one Washington could not prevent, but also, in his view, one it could not be drawn into."

    "If the Afghan government could not hold off the Taliban now, aides said he asked, when would they be able to? None of the Pentagon officials could answer the question."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/14/us/afghanistan-biden.html

    Sounds pretty clear and hard headed to me, no matter how many (including people like DavidL on here) are determined to continue to believe that Biden has a brain full of mush and struggles to tie his shoe laces.
    If the advice was that the 300,000 strong US trained and equipped army was helpless against 90,000 taliban, the answer should be: after we have rethought our training and equiping strategy, and taken another five years to do it fucking properly. Never seen a more spineless argument.
    The advice could well have been that no matter what you put in, a secular(ish) government in Afghanistan will not provide the ideological structure that people will actually die in a ditch to defend.

    {Vladimiro Lenin Ilich Montesinos Torres to the red courtesy phone, please}
    Which is fine as far as advice goes, but wouldn't you then have a much longer withdrawal period which allows for equipment (such as Blackhawks) to be flown out. If the assumption is that the Taliban is going to take the country then don't leave them any defence equipment to take with it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    edited August 2021

    HYUFD said:

    Reports this morning of Al Qaeda and IS prisoners being released from jails across Afghanistan.

    They will all be heading to the West to set up terrorist cells as the Biden and Harris disaster continues

    How many did Trump release?
    5000, but they were clearly good Trump supporting Jihadis that HYUFD approves of.
    The Afghan government released some Taliban prisoners under Trump, these are not Taliban prisoners being released but hardcore Al Qaeda and IS jihadis
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    HYUFD said:

    Reports this morning of Al Qaeda and IS prisoners being released from jails across Afghanistan.

    They will all be heading to the West to set up terrorist cells as the Biden and Harris disaster continues

    Hmm. I'm a bit sceptical about that. Not sure the Taliban would calculate that it's in their interest to have ISIS running loose in the region.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    https://www.flightradar24.com/TVR750/28caaaeb

    Baku to Delhi cargo flight. Thought about going over Afghanistan and then thought better of it!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,467
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    Harris' latest approval rating has her on just 46%, even lower than the 47% Trump got in 2020.

    Never mind winning the election, Trump could even win the popular vote against Harris, she is Hillary 2 in personality but without Hillary's centrist politics
    Your regular reminder that you were adamant Trump was going to be handsomely reelected.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    Harris' latest approval rating has her on just 46%, even lower than the 47% Trump got in 2020.

    Never mind winning the election, Trump could even win the popular vote against Harris, she is Hillary 2 in personality but without Hillary's centrist politics
    Quick question for those who believe Harris would beat Trump. Why? She is unpopular, awkward, doesn't have much in the way of achievements and, as HYFUD says, Hillary Mark 2 without the good bits.

    Just because she is not Donald Trump doesn't guarantee victory.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,202
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    Harris' latest approval rating has her on just 46%, even lower than the 47% Trump got in 2020.

    Never mind winning the election, Trump could even win the popular vote against Harris, she is Hillary 2 in personality but without Hillary's centrist politics
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    Harris' latest approval rating has her on just 46%, even lower than the 47% Trump got in 2020.

    Never mind winning the election, Trump could even win the popular vote against Harris, she is Hillary 2 in personality but without Hillary's centrist politics
    All you are doing is convincing me I am right.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,749
    Since the end of the Cold War, I would argue there have been three defining humiliations for Western power. 9/11, the banking crisis, and the fall of Kabul.

    The trouble with the last of these three, is that it invites further impactful humiliations of even greater severity. Were I living in Taiwan, this morning I’d be making plans to wind up my financials affairs and get out of dodge.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Reports this morning of Al Qaeda and IS prisoners being released from jails across Afghanistan.

    They will all be heading to the West to set up terrorist cells as the Biden and Harris disaster continues

    How many did Trump release?
    None as the jails were still in Afghan government hands when he left office.
    Incorrect. The correct answer is 5,000. You’re welcome.
    Wrong. None of them were hardcore Jihadis heading for western terrorist cells as these will be
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,761

    IshmaelZ said:

    alex_ said:

    Fascinating look into the behind the scenes debates with Biden in last few months:


    "The president told his national security team, including Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and his national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, that he was convinced that no matter what the United States did, Afghanistan was almost certainly headed into another civil war — one Washington could not prevent, but also, in his view, one it could not be drawn into."

    "If the Afghan government could not hold off the Taliban now, aides said he asked, when would they be able to? None of the Pentagon officials could answer the question."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/14/us/afghanistan-biden.html

    Sounds pretty clear and hard headed to me, no matter how many (including people like DavidL on here) are determined to continue to believe that Biden has a brain full of mush and struggles to tie his shoe laces.
    If the advice was that the 300,000 strong US trained and equipped army was helpless against 90,000 taliban, the answer should be: after we have rethought our training and equiping strategy, and taken another five years to do it fucking properly. Never seen a more spineless argument.
    The advice could well have been that no matter what you put in, a secular(ish) government in Afghanistan will not provide the ideological structure that people will actually die in a ditch to defend.

    {Vladimiro Lenin Ilich Montesinos Torres to the red courtesy phone, please}
    From what I've seen over the weekend a massive issue is the level of corruption across Afghan government so that a lot of the money spent on troops and equipment has never made it. There are reports that front line police and soldiers don't even get paid on a regular basis and so on.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    moonshine said:

    Since the end of the Cold War, I would argue there have been three defining humiliations for Western power. 9/11, the banking crisis, and the fall of Kabul.

    The trouble with the last of these three, is that it invites further impactful humiliations of even greater severity. Were I living in Taiwan, this morning I’d be making plans to wind up my financials affairs and get out of dodge.

    Or else get nuclear weapons
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,467
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Reports this morning of Al Qaeda and IS prisoners being released from jails across Afghanistan.

    They will all be heading to the West to set up terrorist cells as the Biden and Harris disaster continues

    How many did Trump release?
    None as the jails were still in Afghan government hands when he left office.
    Incorrect. The correct answer is 5,000. You’re welcome.
    Wrong. None of them were hardcore Jihadis heading for western terrorist cells as these will be
    How do you know?
  • Not Afghanistan, but I have come back to work this morning with an email from our logistics company with another price rise. They have now given their drivers a total of 25.5% pay rise since April, are still losing drivers, there are not enough drivers in the South West at any price.

    At some point the companies will realise that pay rises aren't the solution to not enough drivers as the "winner" will end up with a wage bill +50% AND a shortage of drivers. The "market solution" proposed by Philip doesn't exist.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    Harris' latest approval rating has her on just 46%, even lower than the 47% Trump got in 2020.

    Never mind winning the election, Trump could even win the popular vote against Harris, she is Hillary 2 in personality but without Hillary's centrist politics
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    Harris' latest approval rating has her on just 46%, even lower than the 47% Trump got in 2020.

    Never mind winning the election, Trump could even win the popular vote against Harris, she is Hillary 2 in personality but without Hillary's centrist politics
    All you are doing is convincing me I am right.
    You also thought Hillary would win in 2016
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Reports this morning of Al Qaeda and IS prisoners being released from jails across Afghanistan.

    They will all be heading to the West to set up terrorist cells as the Biden and Harris disaster continues

    How many did Trump release?
    None as the jails were still in Afghan government hands when he left office.
    Incorrect. The correct answer is 5,000. You’re welcome.
    From Guantanamo?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,164
    edited August 2021

    HYUFD said:

    Reports this morning of Al Qaeda and IS prisoners being released from jails across Afghanistan.

    They will all be heading to the West to set up terrorist cells as the Biden and Harris disaster continues

    Hmm. I'm a bit sceptical about that. Not sure the Taliban would calculate that it's in their interest to have ISIS running loose in the region.
    They hate IS, in the typical way of splits between fanatics, but also, from what I've read today, in the more hopeful possibility that some of the current taliban leadership think they were too cruel, leading to their defeat. Let's hope that wing of the Taliban prevails over the more aggressive one.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,467
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Reports this morning of Al Qaeda and IS prisoners being released from jails across Afghanistan.

    They will all be heading to the West to set up terrorist cells as the Biden and Harris disaster continues

    How many did Trump release?
    None as the jails were still in Afghan government hands when he left office.
    Incorrect. The correct answer is 5,000. You’re welcome.
    From Guantanamo?
    From Afghani prisons as part of his “peace deal” with the Taliban. A deal that the Afghan Government was not permitted to be involved in.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    Not Afghanistan, but I have come back to work this morning with an email from our logistics company with another price rise. They have now given their drivers a total of 25.5% pay rise since April, are still losing drivers, there are not enough drivers in the South West at any price.

    At some point the companies will realise that pay rises aren't the solution to not enough drivers as the "winner" will end up with a wage bill +50% AND a shortage of drivers. The "market solution" proposed by Philip doesn't exist.

    It absolutely exists, if truck driver wages go up to £80k per year there will be a queue of people who want to do it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    tlg86 said:

    https://www.flightradar24.com/TVR750/28caaaeb

    Baku to Delhi cargo flight. Thought about going over Afghanistan and then thought better of it!

    Flightradar24 @flightradar24
    #AI126 changed course and exited Afghanistan airspace shortly after entering. https://flightradar24.com/AIC126/28cba788

    #TVR750 now changing course as well. https://flightradar24.com/TVR750/28caaaeb

    UNCONFIRMED Notam from OAKX: Afghanistan airspace available, but uncontrolled by ATC.


    https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/1427147599522435075?s=20
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    Harris' latest approval rating has her on just 46%, even lower than the 47% Trump got in 2020.

    Never mind winning the election, Trump could even win the popular vote against Harris, she is Hillary 2 in personality but without Hillary's centrist politics
    Your regular reminder that you were adamant Trump was going to be handsomely reelected.
    Wrong, I always said Biden would win the popular vote, I just said the EC was too close to call.

    In the end the EC result was not decided for days
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,467
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    Harris' latest approval rating has her on just 46%, even lower than the 47% Trump got in 2020.

    Never mind winning the election, Trump could even win the popular vote against Harris, she is Hillary 2 in personality but without Hillary's centrist politics
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    Harris' latest approval rating has her on just 46%, even lower than the 47% Trump got in 2020.

    Never mind winning the election, Trump could even win the popular vote against Harris, she is Hillary 2 in personality but without Hillary's centrist politics
    All you are doing is convincing me I am right.
    You also thought Hillary would win in 2016
    You thought Trump would win in 2020
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,192
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg....
    We might still.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,378
    edited August 2021
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Reports this morning of Al Qaeda and IS prisoners being released from jails across Afghanistan.

    They will all be heading to the West to set up terrorist cells as the Biden and Harris disaster continues

    How many did Trump release?
    5000, but they were clearly good Trump supporting Jihadis that HYUFD approves of.
    The Afghan government released some Taliban prisoners under Trump, these are not Taliban prisoners being released but hardcore Al Qaeda and IS jihadis
    So I was correct, they were sort of, like 5000 Afghani Dukes of Hazzard, "just good ole Taliban boys, never meaning no harm".
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    I'm not sure. If things continue as they are - not just on Afghanistan but on the immigration crisis, parent backlash against CRT in swing states and the rise in inflation - Trump's line will be "I told you this is what would happen." I'm not sure how Biden or Harris counteract this
    Rise in inflation? Americans have fixed interest mortgages.

    A modest rise in inflation is manna from Heaven for most Americans.

    Right now, the US is booming. It may or may not continue to boom, and it may also be a little generous to attribute that success to Biden.

    But right now, unemployment is falling and wages rising.

    Last inflation figures were 5.4% and that is before the price increases for a whole range of everyday goods - which has been widely flagged by companies in their results - comes in next month.

    Yes, inflation is great if you have a mortgage but what matters more if you don't - and therefore more likely to be at the bottom end of society - is the price of your everyday goods.

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,467
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think the average American voter will care. Unless there is a massacre of US citizens in the withdrawal process - the Taliban seem content to let people go though.
    The USA is a parochial nation on stuff like this now.

    I don’t think that’s true: ultimately America’s position in the world has been dented by this. And Americans do care about how they are seen by the world.

    But these things can also be very short lived. From the disaster of Carter’s military mission in iran, to the fall of communism was less than the time between now and the Global Financial Crisis.
    Who is the Reagan figure you are anticipating to turn the tide?

    Were I a moderate US Democrat, I would be urging everyone I knew to register Republican for 2024 to coalesce around a sane non-Trump nominee. Hard to see past Romney.
    Romney will be 77 at the next election!

    After two septuagenarians in a row, maybe they might want to look at someone a little younger, who still has a good mind and doesn’t need an afternoon nap?
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all if 2024 produced a President none of us expected.

    Obama came from nowhere. Trump came from nowhere. If Iowa hadn’t messed up its count, we might have had President Buttigieg.

    I will continue to sell the favorites.
    Agreed. There’s a hundred Senators and fifty Governors, who could all come from nowhere.

    Theoretically, it’s difficult to see past Kamala Harris for the Dem nomination, she’ll either be the incumbent VP or the President by 2024, and is unlikely to be challenged even if she underperforms between now and then.

    The Republican side, on the other hand, really could be anyone. Presumably they will very quickly sort themselves in the primaries, to rally against Trump or whoever he stands beside.
    Should Trump win the nomination, it’s hard to see how he would lose against Biden or Harris. The Democrat hierarchy must surely realise this and be prepared to push someone else?

    Robert has a far better understanding than me of how the machinations of primary politics unfold. But if Trump is a) not in court, b) has a pulse, everything we know about the man say he’ll run. And the way he still dominates the party and fundraising surely points to him being nominated, no matter how terrible a candidate he is on paper.
    Disagree, I think almost any Republican beats Harris, except Trump.
    Harris' latest approval rating has her on just 46%, even lower than the 47% Trump got in 2020.

    Never mind winning the election, Trump could even win the popular vote against Harris, she is Hillary 2 in personality but without Hillary's centrist politics
    Your regular reminder that you were adamant Trump was going to be handsomely reelected.
    Wrong, I always said Biden would win the popular vote, I just said the EC was too close to call.

    In the end the EC result was not decided for days
    It wasn’t too close to call whatsoever though was it? Have some humility.
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