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Rishi v Boris: Who would make the better PM by English region – politicalbetting.com

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  • YoungTurkYoungTurk Posts: 158

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cases up again. We are losing.

    What would you propose? Lockdown 4? If vaccines aren't enough then what's the solution?
    It’s pretty clear that vaccines give about 6 months worth of protection from catching it, but hopefully much longer lasting protection from getting seriously ill. That might be why cases have hit a stubborn plateau. I also know several people testing positive for the second time now.

    If we are giving up on stopping cases, what’s most important of course is the ratio of hospitalisations to cases. This is happily far lower than where we are. But… there is a but.

    Gone are the days when we could say double vaxxed people aren’t going to hospital. They are. I have an acquaintance who just spent a week on O2 despite being double vaxxed, one of the cohort done early in the year.

    The vaccines probably saved his life but it was still a fairly close run thing. I imagine what we’ll see is the hospitalisations / cases ratios creep up a bit, and there will be an inevitable increase in cases with back to school/Uni/the office.

    Probably and hopefully not sufficiently badly to require another “lockdown”. But I’ve little doubt that the return to the office orders will be overturned within weeks, and schools will up creek again.

    Until the booster programme then gets ahead of it again. Come next winter hopefully they’ll be ahead of things a bit more than this one.
    Don't forget that the booster programme is going to be primarily Pfizer which is much faster acting than AZ (about 10 days vs 25 days to reach maximum efficacy) so people who got their second doses in Feb/March will all start getting their third doses and renewed immunity by the end of September. By the end of November all of groups 1-9 should have got their third dose should they want one.
    Next year’s boosters will presumably be tweaked and tested in time against delta (and whatever else), which if there’s not too much genetic drift will crush cases. This year that’s obviously not the case. And until we get boosters into the over 40s, things might be sticky.

    Rishi’s Great Back To The Office coercion attempts are quite clearly coming months too early, perhaps 6 months in fact. And it’s going to increase the chances of other restrictions being introduced. I am beginning to think the chancellor wears no clothes.
    The whole “Get Back to the Office” stuff is because they see the revenues from railways and city-based hospitality declining - but don’t understand that the commute is what people most hate about their job.

    Most of the politicians, of course, live right in the middle of London, a few minutes from anywhere, and are not on the 06:42 from Basingstoke or Swindon five days a week.
    Railways and city-based hospitality are there to serve the public.

    The public is not there to serve railways and city-based hospitality.

    If the railways aren't as busy any more going forwards then we should be looking at how to cut funding to the railways and redirect it to elsewhere instead - not trying to force people back onto the railways against their wishes.
    Railways are there to serve shareholders, that is what private business entails.
    The railways model in England has been transformed into one where the operators are almost like utility companies, in their tediousness to manage or externally evaluate. Their only real USP in tendering now will be their track record on timely and clean services, and the efficiency of their opex.

    All of the revenue risk has already been assumed by the taxpayer, initially by emergency covid measures. As we speak, that arrangement is being legally formalised for operators into the medium term, who are currently bidding for the concession contracts on a preferred / sole bidder basis. Massive tax payer funded bail out for largely foreign owned operators basically, and they’re still free to pay dividends in the mean time. So if that is what you mean by “there to serve the shareholders”, yes. But it’s being done without any of risk that private business normally entails.
    Nationalise the railways and run them properly for the needs of the public. Some things work privately owned and other don't. That's not ideological, it's logical
    The best route forward is probably going to be concession agreements, rather than franchises or public operators.

    This has most of the benefits of private operation, and most of the benefits of public ownership.

    (This post is totally unrelated to the extensive work I’m currently doing on concession agreements. For utilities, rather than railways, but the same principals apply.)
    Genuine question, in such a model how does the operation honestly differ between a state concession vs one by the German Government company. What do the Germans offer?
    The Germans are running it professionally and not politically.

    Almost every single argument made by those who want the state to interfere, is precisely why the British state should not.
    Jesus Christ, have you ever been on a German state company provided train in this country?
    I only take trains once every few years.
    And yet you feel you have the knowledge to talk to somebody who uses them mostly every day. You really do talk out of your rear
    One of the thing that amuses me about conversations about the railways is that, eventually, it comes down to "I'm a passenger! I know how to run the railway!"

    It leads to such hilarity as the unions / Labour producing long and worthy documents about how they would change the system, that only mentions railfreight once. Because railfreight is evidently unimpotant.

    The railways are a massively complex system, and the idea that you, as a regular passenger, automatically know how it should be run or structured is slightly odd.

    I go to the supermarket regularly. I don't pretend to fully understand their logistics chains, or how to improve it.
    I remember British Railways and nobody should want to go back to those days
    1980s-era BR was actually quite efficient. But it was also managing a shrinking system, something that's much easier to do than managing an expanding system. You are rationalising and cutting, rather than building. It was also - with a couple of exceptions - not customer focussed.

    The pre-Covid expansion in passenger numbers after privatisation would have seemed like an impossible dream in the mid-1980s. Likewise safety (yes, really). The only disappointment is that railfreight didn't pick up to the same degree - and that was partly because of the death of loadhaul coal.
    I used British Railways most every working day between 1960 and 1963 and it was terrible
    Thank you Dr Beeching.
    I really objected to Beeching then and am pleased some of his closures are to be re-opened
    Beeching was absolutely necessary. You can argue that mistakes were made - the Waverley Line being a classic example - but the vast majority of the closures were justified. There was massive duplication of routes. even the Great Central closure was probably correct. Sadly.

    In addition:
    1) I frequently see 'Beeching Cuts!' blamed for lines that closed well before his report, or for lines (e.g. Matlock to Buxton) that were not in his report. Likewise, some lines that he said should be close, were kept open for political reasons - e.g. the mid-Wales line.
    2) Beeching did not close a single inch of railway line. The politicians did. They could have ignored his report, as Thatcher did the Serpell Report in ?1982?.
    I don't agree with your "absolutely necessary" assertion, but your additional point 2) is well made. Advisers are responsible for what they write in reports, but they're not responsible for the decisions; and the common practice of blaming "Beeching" does let the ministers off the hook.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hugely excited to be able to announce my brand new show on @GBNews!

    Congratulations, Francis!
    LOL, They couldn't afford me.
    Perhaps not.
    But I’d watch at least one episode.
    We should pull together a PB a show for GB news.

    TSE - fashion tips
    Max - latest vaccine news
    Malmesbury - latest plague numbers
    Justin - random historical parallels
    Hyufd - polls and whatever the fuck CCO have said today
    CHB - rebuttal from Labour
    MalcolmG - to give the view from Scotland, which is that they hate everyone
    Eek and JJessop on computer coding
    Driving with Dura Ace
    And finally a stand up section with some awesome puns from me.
    Would have the nerve and composure to do your puns in front of a TV audience though?

    Maybe after the GB news slot you could move and find out.
    I have to stand up before thirty rebellious children 22 times a week and teach them anything from the drug habits of eighteenth century politicians to why as fourteen year olds they shouldn’t be shagging each other.

    Believe me, I’ve no shortage of nerve.
    Who were the politicians?!
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://twitter.com/PolyNetwork2/status/1425073987164381196

    Conversation
    Poly Network
    @PolyNetwork2
    Important Notice:
    We are sorry to announce that #PolyNetwork was attacked on
    @BinanceChain

    @ethereum
    and
    @0xPolygon
    Assets had been transferred to hacker's following addresses:
    ETH: 0xC8a65Fadf0e0dDAf421F28FEAb69Bf6E2E589963
    BSC: 0x0D6e286A7cfD25E0c01fEe9756765D8033B32C71

    $600m missing. How many cinema tickets is that?

    Binance, you say….

    The ‘market’ banned by the FCA a couple of months ago…
    I’ve just been looking at the thread.

    Nonce !!

    Seriously !!

    https://twitter.com/eth2/status/1425132201683918851?s=21
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,067
    Sets of Mark 1s on Summer Saturday services to the seaside. With freight locomotives going spare at the weekend providing traction.

    Happy days!

    The downside was suburban units that didn’t go further than Wimbledon during the week, being used for services to Portsmouth at weekends.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,655
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Lol. This cannot be coincidence

    I mean where is the coincidence in the first and third set of pictures?

    Only the 2nd is a coincidence or of course the slogan could have been nicked. But even if a coincidence that is the whole point of coincidences. You don't go around pointing out the thousands on non coincidences do you? You only notice the very few that are coincidences. Coincidences are the unlikely things that will happen in the thousands of things that don't, if that makes sense. So they will happen and we all go 'what a coincidence'.

    Same argument for all those people who argue there must be a god because how could we be here like this without one. Well of course we can only say that because we are here. In all those many more places where sentient beings don't exist, nobody is saying ' bugger there can't be a god if this is all that was created'
    The last picture is truncated. Her outfit is identical
    Although the Scottish national colour is a dark blue, and there are a limited number of female suit designs, so I'm not sure it is that much of a surprise that you are able to find at least one time that the two wore very similar outfits.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hugely excited to be able to announce my brand new show on @GBNews!

    Congratulations, Francis!
    LOL, They couldn't afford me.
    Perhaps not.
    But I’d watch at least one episode.
    We should pull together a PB a show for GB news.

    TSE - fashion tips
    Max - latest vaccine news
    Malmesbury - latest plague numbers
    Justin - random historical parallels
    Hyufd - polls and whatever the fuck CCO have said today
    CHB - rebuttal from Labour
    MalcolmG - to give the view from Scotland, which is that they hate everyone
    Eek and JJessop on computer coding
    Driving with Dura Ace
    And finally a stand up section with some awesome puns from me.
    Would have the nerve and composure to do your puns in front of a TV audience though?

    Maybe after the GB news slot you could move and find out.
    I have to stand up before thirty rebellious children 22 times a week and teach them anything from the drug habits of eighteenth century politicians to why as fourteen year olds they shouldn’t be shagging each other.

    Believe me, I’ve no shortage of nerve.
    Who were the politicians?!
    William Wilberforce. Opium addict.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Has Gavin Williamson resigned yet for creating this devalued generation of A Level grades.

    They are close to worthless aren't they which is harsh on the genuinely top students.

    One thing that almost everyone can agree on is that he ought to resign, or be fired, as soon as possible. He is useless.
    The only thing I would add though, is it’s not just him. The DfE, OFSTED and OFQUAL all need scrubbing as well.

    As do Nick Gibb, Amanda Spielman, Sean Harford and Simon Lebus.

    There just is no way they can regain the confidence of anyone involved in education, and that’s not just teachers, it’s parents and students as well.
    It's actually very unhealthy imo this associating all the shit in our schooling system with the personage of Gavin Williamson.
    Arguably, actually, Gibb and Spielman are both far more culpable than Williamson as they were responsible for many of the mistakes - e.g. on exam reform and academisation - that have left us in this mess.
    That may well be true but Gavin Williamson’s interview with Nick Robinson this morning should have been a sacking offence and it does the government no credit that he remains in office.

    A total inability to answer a question, stop diversionary drivel and address the problems created by its own incoherence. We may have grade inflation like never before but this was still a fail and a poor one at that.
    The competition for the worst education minister in the UK is truly reaching Olympian proportions.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hugely excited to be able to announce my brand new show on @GBNews!

    Congratulations, Francis!
    LOL, They couldn't afford me.
    Perhaps not.
    But I’d watch at least one episode.
    We should pull together a PB a show for GB news.

    TSE - fashion tips
    Max - latest vaccine news
    Malmesbury - latest plague numbers
    Justin - random historical parallels
    Hyufd - polls and whatever the fuck CCO have said today
    CHB - rebuttal from Labour
    MalcolmG - to give the view from Scotland, which is that they hate everyone
    Eek and JJessop on computer coding
    Driving with Dura Ace
    And finally a stand up section with some awesome puns from me.
    Pinging Cyclefree to wonder why its an all male lineup.
    A betting section is notable by its absence
    How are you feeling about our £300/£100 Starmer bet now? Still like it?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,500

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cases up again. We are losing.

    What would you propose? Lockdown 4? If vaccines aren't enough then what's the solution?
    It’s pretty clear that vaccines give about 6 months worth of protection from catching it, but hopefully much longer lasting protection from getting seriously ill. That might be why cases have hit a stubborn plateau. I also know several people testing positive for the second time now.

    If we are giving up on stopping cases, what’s most important of course is the ratio of hospitalisations to cases. This is happily far lower than where we are. But… there is a but.

    Gone are the days when we could say double vaxxed people aren’t going to hospital. They are. I have an acquaintance who just spent a week on O2 despite being double vaxxed, one of the cohort done early in the year.

    The vaccines probably saved his life but it was still a fairly close run thing. I imagine what we’ll see is the hospitalisations / cases ratios creep up a bit, and there will be an inevitable increase in cases with back to school/Uni/the office.

    Probably and hopefully not sufficiently badly to require another “lockdown”. But I’ve little doubt that the return to the office orders will be overturned within weeks, and schools will up creek again.

    Until the booster programme then gets ahead of it again. Come next winter hopefully they’ll be ahead of things a bit more than this one.
    Don't forget that the booster programme is going to be primarily Pfizer which is much faster acting than AZ (about 10 days vs 25 days to reach maximum efficacy) so people who got their second doses in Feb/March will all start getting their third doses and renewed immunity by the end of September. By the end of November all of groups 1-9 should have got their third dose should they want one.
    Next year’s boosters will presumably be tweaked and tested in time against delta (and whatever else), which if there’s not too much genetic drift will crush cases. This year that’s obviously not the case. And until we get boosters into the over 40s, things might be sticky.

    Rishi’s Great Back To The Office coercion attempts are quite clearly coming months too early, perhaps 6 months in fact. And it’s going to increase the chances of other restrictions being introduced. I am beginning to think the chancellor wears no clothes.
    The whole “Get Back to the Office” stuff is because they see the revenues from railways and city-based hospitality declining - but don’t understand that the commute is what people most hate about their job.

    Most of the politicians, of course, live right in the middle of London, a few minutes from anywhere, and are not on the 06:42 from Basingstoke or Swindon five days a week.
    Railways and city-based hospitality are there to serve the public.

    The public is not there to serve railways and city-based hospitality.

    If the railways aren't as busy any more going forwards then we should be looking at how to cut funding to the railways and redirect it to elsewhere instead - not trying to force people back onto the railways against their wishes.
    The problem, of course, is that a lot of railway costs are fixed. Perhaps some savings can be made in terms of train crew and rolling stock costs, but the infrastructure still needs maintaining and that pretty much stays the same however many trains you run.
    But a massive amount of that infrastructure, is only required for a few hours a day. If there’s no longer 2m people looking to get to a desk half a mile from Bank at 8am and not a minute later, the whole system becomes much easier to manage.
    Absolutely. Without rush hour the railway would need less rolling stock, and what they did have would have higher utilisation. Trains that do one morning turn and one evening turn are bleeding money.
    We used to keep old trains for low utilisation rotas, in the same way that bus companies use old buses cascaded from front line service, to use as school buses. Now all trains have to be standardised, and drivers aren’t allowed to drive just any train, only specific types they are certified to drive.
    Sets of Mark 1s on Summer Saturday services to the seaside. With freight locomotives going spare at the weekend providing traction.

    Happy days!
    More than thirty year ago (I'm getting old!) I was told a story by an ex-BR manager. He said that lots of stock was stored at Shoeburyness and other places in more-or-less serviceable condition. If there was ever a civil emergency, they could be taken into London on all lines, loaded up, and other locos at the 'country' end take them out again. The idea was to disperse as many people out of town as possible. He was in a team who worked out the logistics of it all. Normal operational practices and routines were to essentially be abandoned.

    It might be an urban myth. I've read similar elsewhere, but never seen anything authoritative. If true, it must have been a spectacular operation - which we thankfully never saw.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032


    The two recent periods when the Intercity East Coast franchise has been run publicly seem to have been ok.

    The 'mix of the two working together' on the East Coast franchise seems to be:

    Private enterprise fails miserably before the state picks up the pieces... rinse and repeat.

    Nah.

    LNER have managed to suck more than Virgin East Coast.

    I think they have 40% satisfaction rating with Which!
    Surely just reflects the cost of bots these days.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Lol. This cannot be coincidence

    I mean where is the coincidence in the first and third set of pictures?

    Only the 2nd is a coincidence or of course the slogan could have been nicked. But even if a coincidence that is the whole point of coincidences. You don't go around pointing out the thousands on non coincidences do you? You only notice the very few that are coincidences. Coincidences are the unlikely things that will happen in the thousands of things that don't, if that makes sense. So they will happen and we all go 'what a coincidence'.

    Same argument for all those people who argue there must be a god because how could we be here like this without one. Well of course we can only say that because we are here. In all those many more places where sentient beings don't exist, nobody is saying ' bugger there can't be a god if this is all that was created'
    The last picture is truncated. Her outfit is identical
    Although the Scottish national colour is a dark blue, and there are a limited number of female suit designs, so I'm not sure it is that much of a surprise that you are able to find at least one time that the two wore very similar outfits.
    Technically the Saltire is not a very dark blue: it is certainly not as dark as the UJ blue. So even less of a surprise.

    But Ms Sturgeon has worn plenty of other hues anyway. Red, for instance. Or offwhite and black to meet Mr Johnson.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cases up again. We are losing.

    What would you propose? Lockdown 4? If vaccines aren't enough then what's the solution?
    It’s pretty clear that vaccines give about 6 months worth of protection from catching it, but hopefully much longer lasting protection from getting seriously ill. That might be why cases have hit a stubborn plateau. I also know several people testing positive for the second time now.

    If we are giving up on stopping cases, what’s most important of course is the ratio of hospitalisations to cases. This is happily far lower than where we are. But… there is a but.

    Gone are the days when we could say double vaxxed people aren’t going to hospital. They are. I have an acquaintance who just spent a week on O2 despite being double vaxxed, one of the cohort done early in the year.

    The vaccines probably saved his life but it was still a fairly close run thing. I imagine what we’ll see is the hospitalisations / cases ratios creep up a bit, and there will be an inevitable increase in cases with back to school/Uni/the office.

    Probably and hopefully not sufficiently badly to require another “lockdown”. But I’ve little doubt that the return to the office orders will be overturned within weeks, and schools will up creek again.

    Until the booster programme then gets ahead of it again. Come next winter hopefully they’ll be ahead of things a bit more than this one.
    Don't forget that the booster programme is going to be primarily Pfizer which is much faster acting than AZ (about 10 days vs 25 days to reach maximum efficacy) so people who got their second doses in Feb/March will all start getting their third doses and renewed immunity by the end of September. By the end of November all of groups 1-9 should have got their third dose should they want one.
    Next year’s boosters will presumably be tweaked and tested in time against delta (and whatever else), which if there’s not too much genetic drift will crush cases. This year that’s obviously not the case. And until we get boosters into the over 40s, things might be sticky.

    Rishi’s Great Back To The Office coercion attempts are quite clearly coming months too early, perhaps 6 months in fact. And it’s going to increase the chances of other restrictions being introduced. I am beginning to think the chancellor wears no clothes.
    The whole “Get Back to the Office” stuff is because they see the revenues from railways and city-based hospitality declining - but don’t understand that the commute is what people most hate about their job.

    Most of the politicians, of course, live right in the middle of London, a few minutes from anywhere, and are not on the 06:42 from Basingstoke or Swindon five days a week.
    Railways and city-based hospitality are there to serve the public.

    The public is not there to serve railways and city-based hospitality.

    If the railways aren't as busy any more going forwards then we should be looking at how to cut funding to the railways and redirect it to elsewhere instead - not trying to force people back onto the railways against their wishes.
    The problem, of course, is that a lot of railway costs are fixed. Perhaps some savings can be made in terms of train crew and rolling stock costs, but the infrastructure still needs maintaining and that pretty much stays the same however many trains you run.
    But a massive amount of that infrastructure, is only required for a few hours a day. If there’s no longer 2m people looking to get to a desk half a mile from Bank at 8am and not a minute later, the whole system becomes much easier to manage.
    Absolutely. Without rush hour the railway would need less rolling stock, and what they did have would have higher utilisation. Trains that do one morning turn and one evening turn are bleeding money.
    We used to keep old trains for low utilisation rotas, in the same way that bus companies use old buses cascaded from front line service, to use as school buses. Now all trains have to be standardised, and drivers aren’t allowed to drive just any train, only specific types they are certified to drive.
    Sets of Mark 1s on Summer Saturday services to the seaside. With freight locomotives going spare at the weekend providing traction.

    Happy days!
    More than thirty year ago (I'm getting old!) I was told a story by an ex-BR manager. He said that lots of stock was stored at Shoeburyness and other places in more-or-less serviceable condition. If there was ever a civil emergency, they could be taken into London on all lines, loaded up, and other locos at the 'country' end take them out again. The idea was to disperse as many people out of town as possible. He was in a team who worked out the logistics of it all. Normal operational practices and routines were to essentially be abandoned.

    It might be an urban myth. I've read similar elsewhere, but never seen anything authoritative. If true, it must have been a spectacular operation - which we thankfully never saw.
    If true, I would have thought the place to look for confirmation would be in Gerald Fiennes’ memoirs.

    They do include a section on planning for one major emergency - the evacuation of Kent and London in the event of a German invasion in 1940.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Leon said:

    Lol

    I just got another angry email from British Airways saying WE CANNOT VERIFY YOUR COVID DOCUMENTS!!!!

    Even as I sit in their lounge necking their free fizz.

    Thank god I’m a right wing Brexiteer alpha male with cullions of tungsten and just went for it. How many families, couples, girl guides, kinabalus, lefties, and Stuart ‘gestapo’ Dicksons would be so unnerved by this they’d just give up and stay home?

    Chaos

    Alpha male my arse.

    Yer a big girl’s blouse Sean.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992
    Evening all :)

    Norway votes on September 13th - the latest poll (changes since the last election):

    Labour: 23.5% (-4)
    Conservative: 18% (-7)
    Centre Party: 16% (+6)
    Progress Party: 9% (-6)
    Socialist Left: 8.5% (+2.5)
    Red Party: 7.5% (+1.5)
    Greens: 4.5% (+1.5)
    Christian Democratic Party: 4% (unc)
    Liberal Party: 3% (-1.5%)

    The current centre-right ruling block (Conservatives, Christian Democrats and Liberals) looks in real trouble with the latter two struglging to get past the 4% threshold to get into the Storting.

    A Red-Green Coalition which in Norwegian terms means Labour, Centre and the Socialist Left looks the obvious alternative (this was the governing coalition in the Stoltenberg era)

    The revival of Centre has been the big feature of recent Norwegian politics - the leader Trgve Vedum was Agriculture Minister in the last Stoltenberg Government but has breathed new life into what was a declining party - it's now heading for its best result since 1993 when it got more seats than the Conservatives despite polling slightly fewer votes.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hugely excited to be able to announce my brand new show on @GBNews!

    Congratulations, Francis!
    LOL, They couldn't afford me.
    Perhaps not.
    But I’d watch at least one episode.
    We should pull together a PB a show for GB news.

    TSE - fashion tips
    Max - latest vaccine news
    Malmesbury - latest plague numbers
    Justin - random historical parallels
    Hyufd - polls and whatever the fuck CCO have said today
    CHB - rebuttal from Labour
    MalcolmG - to give the view from Scotland, which is that they hate everyone
    Eek and JJessop on computer coding
    Driving with Dura Ace
    And finally a stand up section with some awesome puns from me.
    ScottXP could present a five minute segment of a round up of the best posts on twitter.
    Shouldn't MalcG also do a round up of turnip news? Like Farming Today but a little more limited in scope?

    @Morris_Dancer can provide medieval news.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,500
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cases up again. We are losing.

    What would you propose? Lockdown 4? If vaccines aren't enough then what's the solution?
    It’s pretty clear that vaccines give about 6 months worth of protection from catching it, but hopefully much longer lasting protection from getting seriously ill. That might be why cases have hit a stubborn plateau. I also know several people testing positive for the second time now.

    If we are giving up on stopping cases, what’s most important of course is the ratio of hospitalisations to cases. This is happily far lower than where we are. But… there is a but.

    Gone are the days when we could say double vaxxed people aren’t going to hospital. They are. I have an acquaintance who just spent a week on O2 despite being double vaxxed, one of the cohort done early in the year.

    The vaccines probably saved his life but it was still a fairly close run thing. I imagine what we’ll see is the hospitalisations / cases ratios creep up a bit, and there will be an inevitable increase in cases with back to school/Uni/the office.

    Probably and hopefully not sufficiently badly to require another “lockdown”. But I’ve little doubt that the return to the office orders will be overturned within weeks, and schools will up creek again.

    Until the booster programme then gets ahead of it again. Come next winter hopefully they’ll be ahead of things a bit more than this one.
    Don't forget that the booster programme is going to be primarily Pfizer which is much faster acting than AZ (about 10 days vs 25 days to reach maximum efficacy) so people who got their second doses in Feb/March will all start getting their third doses and renewed immunity by the end of September. By the end of November all of groups 1-9 should have got their third dose should they want one.
    Next year’s boosters will presumably be tweaked and tested in time against delta (and whatever else), which if there’s not too much genetic drift will crush cases. This year that’s obviously not the case. And until we get boosters into the over 40s, things might be sticky.

    Rishi’s Great Back To The Office coercion attempts are quite clearly coming months too early, perhaps 6 months in fact. And it’s going to increase the chances of other restrictions being introduced. I am beginning to think the chancellor wears no clothes.
    The whole “Get Back to the Office” stuff is because they see the revenues from railways and city-based hospitality declining - but don’t understand that the commute is what people most hate about their job.

    Most of the politicians, of course, live right in the middle of London, a few minutes from anywhere, and are not on the 06:42 from Basingstoke or Swindon five days a week.
    Railways and city-based hospitality are there to serve the public.

    The public is not there to serve railways and city-based hospitality.

    If the railways aren't as busy any more going forwards then we should be looking at how to cut funding to the railways and redirect it to elsewhere instead - not trying to force people back onto the railways against their wishes.
    The problem, of course, is that a lot of railway costs are fixed. Perhaps some savings can be made in terms of train crew and rolling stock costs, but the infrastructure still needs maintaining and that pretty much stays the same however many trains you run.
    But a massive amount of that infrastructure, is only required for a few hours a day. If there’s no longer 2m people looking to get to a desk half a mile from Bank at 8am and not a minute later, the whole system becomes much easier to manage.
    Absolutely. Without rush hour the railway would need less rolling stock, and what they did have would have higher utilisation. Trains that do one morning turn and one evening turn are bleeding money.
    We used to keep old trains for low utilisation rotas, in the same way that bus companies use old buses cascaded from front line service, to use as school buses. Now all trains have to be standardised, and drivers aren’t allowed to drive just any train, only specific types they are certified to drive.
    Sets of Mark 1s on Summer Saturday services to the seaside. With freight locomotives going spare at the weekend providing traction.

    Happy days!
    More than thirty year ago (I'm getting old!) I was told a story by an ex-BR manager. He said that lots of stock was stored at Shoeburyness and other places in more-or-less serviceable condition. If there was ever a civil emergency, they could be taken into London on all lines, loaded up, and other locos at the 'country' end take them out again. The idea was to disperse as many people out of town as possible. He was in a team who worked out the logistics of it all. Normal operational practices and routines were to essentially be abandoned.

    It might be an urban myth. I've read similar elsewhere, but never seen anything authoritative. If true, it must have been a spectacular operation - which we thankfully never saw.
    If true, I would have thought the place to look for confirmation would be in Gerald Fiennes’ memoirs.

    They do include a section on planning for one major emergency - the evacuation of Kent and London in the event of a German invasion in 1940.
    "I tried to run a railway" is on my bookshelf. I can't remember a section on it, and am sure I would have remembered ...
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Norway votes on September 13th - the latest poll (changes since the last election):

    Labour: 23.5% (-4)
    Conservative: 18% (-7)
    Centre Party: 16% (+6)
    Progress Party: 9% (-6)
    Socialist Left: 8.5% (+2.5)
    Red Party: 7.5% (+1.5)
    Greens: 4.5% (+1.5)
    Christian Democratic Party: 4% (unc)
    Liberal Party: 3% (-1.5%)

    The current centre-right ruling block (Conservatives, Christian Democrats and Liberals) looks in real trouble with the latter two struglging to get past the 4% threshold to get into the Storting.

    A Red-Green Coalition which in Norwegian terms means Labour, Centre and the Socialist Left looks the obvious alternative (this was the governing coalition in the Stoltenberg era)

    The revival of Centre has been the big feature of recent Norwegian politics - the leader Trgve Vedum was Agriculture Minister in the last Stoltenberg Government but has breathed new life into what was a declining party - it's now heading for its best result since 1993 when it got more seats than the Conservatives despite polling slightly fewer votes.

    I can’t make head nor tale of those pluses and minuses. Too many minuses. Is there some new party you’ve omitted?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,159

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    'Sixty-year-old Brian was one of the last miners at “the Big K”.... “Boris is our guy. He promised to sort out Brexit and he’s not like those other Tories. He’s promised to make things better.”

    ... his views on the prime minister had changed. “What a bastard! I can’t believe it.” He was angry not about the pandemic or government policy but an off-the-cuff remark Johnson made in Scotland last week.'
    From "Boris is our guy" to "What a bastard!". The two stages of dealing with Mr Johnson that everyone goes through. Doesn't matter whether it's personal or political.

    It's just a question of when.
    Some of us missed out the first stage.
    Didn't John Major try to blackball him from the Candidates' List?

    I suppose the interesting question is- at what point in his life did it become clear that BoJo was significantly more unsuitable for high office than other Eton-Oxford-Politics types?
    Late 80s, when he was sacked from The Times for lying about catamites and trying to get his godfather to lie about it, who refused.
    Er, you might want to look at the dictionary to check that you really want to use 'catamite'. Either that, or it is news to me.
    Catamite is what he meant. You obviously got an F in your history of Boris exam. Piers Gaveston, for it was he, is the only man to have screwed over two successive Eton and Oxford Prime Ministers.
    When did Piers Gaveston screw David Cameron?
    The story that Cameron waved his willy at a pig's head in a Piers Gaveston society ritual.
    Yes, I get it now.

    Of course, it was put forward by Oakeshott and Cashcroft, who are both totally untrustworthy.
    Isabel?
    Yes.

    My boss hates David Cameron before it was fashionable and he's also a graduate of the University of Oxford, the morning after the Cameron pig story came out he said it was utter bollocks.

    He said the Piers Gaveston Society is made up of oiks who think they are aristos and there's no way anyone would be a member of the Bullingdon and the PG Society and Dave was clearly Bullingdon material from the day he was born.
    The clown’s demolition job on Cammo is possibly the only public service he has ever performed.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    IanB2 said:

    Lincoln continues to have the highest rate of cases of Covid-19 of any local authority area in England, according to the most recent published data. The city reported 617 new cases in the seven days to 6 August – the equivalent of 621.4 per 100,000 people. That was down from 716.0 per 100,000 in the seven days to 30 July.

    Of the 315 local areas in England, 187 (59%) have seen a week-on-week rise in rates, 126 (40%) have seen a fall and two are unchanged, according to a list calculated by the PA news agency, based on data published by Public Health England today.

    The figures are based on the number of people who have tested positive for Covid-19 in either a lab-reported or rapid lateral flow test, by specimen date. Data for the most recent four days (7-10 August) has been excluded as it is incomplete and does not reflect the true number of cases.

    Exeter had the second highest rate, up from 541.1 to 601.2, with 790 new cases. Hull had the third highest rate, up from 512.7 to 580.1, with 1,507 new cases.

    The five areas with the biggest week-on-week rises were:

    Peterborough (up from 301.1 to 441.0)
    Oadby and Wigston (249.1 to 384.1)
    Hinckley and Bosworth (272.2 to 394.2)
    Derby (235.1 to 338.1)
    Cambridge (322.1 to 423.1)

    The second two there are @Foxy territory I believe?
  • malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cases up again. We are losing.

    What would you propose? Lockdown 4? If vaccines aren't enough then what's the solution?
    It’s pretty clear that vaccines give about 6 months worth of protection from catching it, but hopefully much longer lasting protection from getting seriously ill. That might be why cases have hit a stubborn plateau. I also know several people testing positive for the second time now.

    If we are giving up on stopping cases, what’s most important of course is the ratio of hospitalisations to cases. This is happily far lower than where we are. But… there is a but.

    Gone are the days when we could say double vaxxed people aren’t going to hospital. They are. I have an acquaintance who just spent a week on O2 despite being double vaxxed, one of the cohort done early in the year.

    The vaccines probably saved his life but it was still a fairly close run thing. I imagine what we’ll see is the hospitalisations / cases ratios creep up a bit, and there will be an inevitable increase in cases with back to school/Uni/the office.

    Probably and hopefully not sufficiently badly to require another “lockdown”. But I’ve little doubt that the return to the office orders will be overturned within weeks, and schools will up creek again.

    Until the booster programme then gets ahead of it again. Come next winter hopefully they’ll be ahead of things a bit more than this one.
    Don't forget that the booster programme is going to be primarily Pfizer which is much faster acting than AZ (about 10 days vs 25 days to reach maximum efficacy) so people who got their second doses in Feb/March will all start getting their third doses and renewed immunity by the end of September. By the end of November all of groups 1-9 should have got their third dose should they want one.
    Next year’s boosters will presumably be tweaked and tested in time against delta (and whatever else), which if there’s not too much genetic drift will crush cases. This year that’s obviously not the case. And until we get boosters into the over 40s, things might be sticky.

    Rishi’s Great Back To The Office coercion attempts are quite clearly coming months too early, perhaps 6 months in fact. And it’s going to increase the chances of other restrictions being introduced. I am beginning to think the chancellor wears no clothes.
    The whole “Get Back to the Office” stuff is because they see the revenues from railways and city-based hospitality declining - but don’t understand that the commute is what people most hate about their job.

    Most of the politicians, of course, live right in the middle of London, a few minutes from anywhere, and are not on the 06:42 from Basingstoke or Swindon five days a week.
    Railways and city-based hospitality are there to serve the public.

    The public is not there to serve railways and city-based hospitality.

    If the railways aren't as busy any more going forwards then we should be looking at how to cut funding to the railways and redirect it to elsewhere instead - not trying to force people back onto the railways against their wishes.
    Railways are there to serve shareholders, that is what private business entails.
    The railways model in England has been transformed into one where the operators are almost like utility companies, in their tediousness to manage or externally evaluate. Their only real USP in tendering now will be their track record on timely and clean services, and the efficiency of their opex.

    All of the revenue risk has already been assumed by the taxpayer, initially by emergency covid measures. As we speak, that arrangement is being legally formalised for operators into the medium term, who are currently bidding for the concession contracts on a preferred / sole bidder basis. Massive tax payer funded bail out for largely foreign owned operators basically, and they’re still free to pay dividends in the mean time. So if that is what you mean by “there to serve the shareholders”, yes. But it’s being done without any of risk that private business normally entails.
    Nationalise the railways and run them properly for the needs of the public. Some things work privately owned and other don't. That's not ideological, it's logical
    The best route forward is probably going to be concession agreements, rather than franchises or public operators.

    This has most of the benefits of private operation, and most of the benefits of public ownership.

    (This post is totally unrelated to the extensive work I’m currently doing on concession agreements. For utilities, rather than railways, but the same principals apply.)
    Genuine question, in such a model how does the operation honestly differ between a state concession vs one by the German Government company. What do the Germans offer?
    The Germans are running it professionally and not politically.

    Almost every single argument made by those who want the state to interfere, is precisely why the British state should not.
    Jesus Christ, have you ever been on a German state company provided train in this country?
    I only take trains once every few years.
    And yet you feel you have the knowledge to talk to somebody who uses them mostly every day. You really do talk out of your rear
    One of the thing that amuses me about conversations about the railways is that, eventually, it comes down to "I'm a passenger! I know how to run the railway!"

    It leads to such hilarity as the unions / Labour producing long and worthy documents about how they would change the system, that only mentions railfreight once. Because railfreight is evidently unimpotant.

    The railways are a massively complex system, and the idea that you, as a regular passenger, automatically know how it should be run or structured is slightly odd.

    I go to the supermarket regularly. I don't pretend to fully understand their logistics chains, or how to improve it.
    I remember British Railways and nobody should want to go back to those days
    1980s-era BR was actually quite efficient. But it was also managing a shrinking system, something that's much easier to do than managing an expanding system. You are rationalising and cutting, rather than building. It was also - with a couple of exceptions - not customer focussed.

    The pre-Covid expansion in passenger numbers after privatisation would have seemed like an impossible dream in the mid-1980s. Likewise safety (yes, really). The only disappointment is that railfreight didn't pick up to the same degree - and that was partly because of the death of loadhaul coal.
    I used British Railways most every working day between 1960 and 1963 and it was terrible
    With respect Big_G, lots of things were terrible 60 years ago. Look at the (then privately run) British Car industry in the early 60s.
    The Tory government who had then been nominally in charge of British Railways for 10+ years must have been really terrible!
    Did you experience BR 60 years ago
    I did, steam trains were brilliant
    I love steam trains and on one occasion I saw 'Mallard' herself haul the Edinburgh to London service non stop through Berwick on Tweed

    On another occasion the signalman at Scremerston just south of Berwick called me up into his box and let me raise the signal for the 'Flying Scotsman' steam engine to pass under in full steam on its way to Edinburgh

    I love steam trains to this day and seeing them daily from my classroom in Berwick pass on their way to and from Edinburgh was magic

    That does not change the fact that British Railways were dire in those days
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cases up again. We are losing.

    What would you propose? Lockdown 4? If vaccines aren't enough then what's the solution?
    It’s pretty clear that vaccines give about 6 months worth of protection from catching it, but hopefully much longer lasting protection from getting seriously ill. That might be why cases have hit a stubborn plateau. I also know several people testing positive for the second time now.

    If we are giving up on stopping cases, what’s most important of course is the ratio of hospitalisations to cases. This is happily far lower than where we are. But… there is a but.

    Gone are the days when we could say double vaxxed people aren’t going to hospital. They are. I have an acquaintance who just spent a week on O2 despite being double vaxxed, one of the cohort done early in the year.

    The vaccines probably saved his life but it was still a fairly close run thing. I imagine what we’ll see is the hospitalisations / cases ratios creep up a bit, and there will be an inevitable increase in cases with back to school/Uni/the office.

    Probably and hopefully not sufficiently badly to require another “lockdown”. But I’ve little doubt that the return to the office orders will be overturned within weeks, and schools will up creek again.

    Until the booster programme then gets ahead of it again. Come next winter hopefully they’ll be ahead of things a bit more than this one.
    Don't forget that the booster programme is going to be primarily Pfizer which is much faster acting than AZ (about 10 days vs 25 days to reach maximum efficacy) so people who got their second doses in Feb/March will all start getting their third doses and renewed immunity by the end of September. By the end of November all of groups 1-9 should have got their third dose should they want one.
    Next year’s boosters will presumably be tweaked and tested in time against delta (and whatever else), which if there’s not too much genetic drift will crush cases. This year that’s obviously not the case. And until we get boosters into the over 40s, things might be sticky.

    Rishi’s Great Back To The Office coercion attempts are quite clearly coming months too early, perhaps 6 months in fact. And it’s going to increase the chances of other restrictions being introduced. I am beginning to think the chancellor wears no clothes.
    The whole “Get Back to the Office” stuff is because they see the revenues from railways and city-based hospitality declining - but don’t understand that the commute is what people most hate about their job.

    Most of the politicians, of course, live right in the middle of London, a few minutes from anywhere, and are not on the 06:42 from Basingstoke or Swindon five days a week.
    Railways and city-based hospitality are there to serve the public.

    The public is not there to serve railways and city-based hospitality.

    If the railways aren't as busy any more going forwards then we should be looking at how to cut funding to the railways and redirect it to elsewhere instead - not trying to force people back onto the railways against their wishes.
    The problem, of course, is that a lot of railway costs are fixed. Perhaps some savings can be made in terms of train crew and rolling stock costs, but the infrastructure still needs maintaining and that pretty much stays the same however many trains you run.
    But a massive amount of that infrastructure, is only required for a few hours a day. If there’s no longer 2m people looking to get to a desk half a mile from Bank at 8am and not a minute later, the whole system becomes much easier to manage.
    Absolutely. Without rush hour the railway would need less rolling stock, and what they did have would have higher utilisation. Trains that do one morning turn and one evening turn are bleeding money.
    We used to keep old trains for low utilisation rotas, in the same way that bus companies use old buses cascaded from front line service, to use as school buses. Now all trains have to be standardised, and drivers aren’t allowed to drive just any train, only specific types they are certified to drive.
    Sets of Mark 1s on Summer Saturday services to the seaside. With freight locomotives going spare at the weekend providing traction.

    Happy days!
    More than thirty year ago (I'm getting old!) I was told a story by an ex-BR manager. He said that lots of stock was stored at Shoeburyness and other places in more-or-less serviceable condition. If there was ever a civil emergency, they could be taken into London on all lines, loaded up, and other locos at the 'country' end take them out again. The idea was to disperse as many people out of town as possible. He was in a team who worked out the logistics of it all. Normal operational practices and routines were to essentially be abandoned.

    It might be an urban myth. I've read similar elsewhere, but never seen anything authoritative. If true, it must have been a spectacular operation - which we thankfully never saw.
    If true, I would have thought the place to look for confirmation would be in Gerald Fiennes’ memoirs.

    They do include a section on planning for one major emergency - the evacuation of Kent and London in the event of a German invasion in 1940.
    "I tried to run a railway" is on my bookshelf. I can't remember a section on it, and am sure I would have remembered ...
    It’s one of his other books - Fiennes on Rails.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fiennes-Rails-Gerry/dp/0715389262
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    edited August 2021

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hugely excited to be able to announce my brand new show on @GBNews!

    Congratulations, Francis!
    LOL, They couldn't afford me.
    Perhaps not.
    But I’d watch at least one episode.
    We should pull together a PB a show for GB news.

    TSE - fashion tips
    Max - latest vaccine news
    Malmesbury - latest plague numbers
    Justin - random historical parallels
    Hyufd - polls and whatever the fuck CCO have said today
    CHB - rebuttal from Labour
    MalcolmG - to give the view from Scotland, which is that they hate everyone
    Eek and JJessop on computer coding
    Driving with Dura Ace
    And finally a stand up section with some awesome puns from me.
    ScottXP could present a five minute segment of a round up of the best posts on twitter.
    Shouldn't MalcG also do a round up of turnip news? Like Farming Today but a little more limited in scope?

    @Morris_Dancer can provide medieval news.
    I don’t think that he goes for all that modern stuff.

    Nothing after the Diadochi.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,067

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cases up again. We are losing.

    What would you propose? Lockdown 4? If vaccines aren't enough then what's the solution?
    It’s pretty clear that vaccines give about 6 months worth of protection from catching it, but hopefully much longer lasting protection from getting seriously ill. That might be why cases have hit a stubborn plateau. I also know several people testing positive for the second time now.

    If we are giving up on stopping cases, what’s most important of course is the ratio of hospitalisations to cases. This is happily far lower than where we are. But… there is a but.

    Gone are the days when we could say double vaxxed people aren’t going to hospital. They are. I have an acquaintance who just spent a week on O2 despite being double vaxxed, one of the cohort done early in the year.

    The vaccines probably saved his life but it was still a fairly close run thing. I imagine what we’ll see is the hospitalisations / cases ratios creep up a bit, and there will be an inevitable increase in cases with back to school/Uni/the office.

    Probably and hopefully not sufficiently badly to require another “lockdown”. But I’ve little doubt that the return to the office orders will be overturned within weeks, and schools will up creek again.

    Until the booster programme then gets ahead of it again. Come next winter hopefully they’ll be ahead of things a bit more than this one.
    Don't forget that the booster programme is going to be primarily Pfizer which is much faster acting than AZ (about 10 days vs 25 days to reach maximum efficacy) so people who got their second doses in Feb/March will all start getting their third doses and renewed immunity by the end of September. By the end of November all of groups 1-9 should have got their third dose should they want one.
    Next year’s boosters will presumably be tweaked and tested in time against delta (and whatever else), which if there’s not too much genetic drift will crush cases. This year that’s obviously not the case. And until we get boosters into the over 40s, things might be sticky.

    Rishi’s Great Back To The Office coercion attempts are quite clearly coming months too early, perhaps 6 months in fact. And it’s going to increase the chances of other restrictions being introduced. I am beginning to think the chancellor wears no clothes.
    The whole “Get Back to the Office” stuff is because they see the revenues from railways and city-based hospitality declining - but don’t understand that the commute is what people most hate about their job.

    Most of the politicians, of course, live right in the middle of London, a few minutes from anywhere, and are not on the 06:42 from Basingstoke or Swindon five days a week.
    Railways and city-based hospitality are there to serve the public.

    The public is not there to serve railways and city-based hospitality.

    If the railways aren't as busy any more going forwards then we should be looking at how to cut funding to the railways and redirect it to elsewhere instead - not trying to force people back onto the railways against their wishes.
    The problem, of course, is that a lot of railway costs are fixed. Perhaps some savings can be made in terms of train crew and rolling stock costs, but the infrastructure still needs maintaining and that pretty much stays the same however many trains you run.
    But a massive amount of that infrastructure, is only required for a few hours a day. If there’s no longer 2m people looking to get to a desk half a mile from Bank at 8am and not a minute later, the whole system becomes much easier to manage.
    Absolutely. Without rush hour the railway would need less rolling stock, and what they did have would have higher utilisation. Trains that do one morning turn and one evening turn are bleeding money.
    We used to keep old trains for low utilisation rotas, in the same way that bus companies use old buses cascaded from front line service, to use as school buses. Now all trains have to be standardised, and drivers aren’t allowed to drive just any train, only specific types they are certified to drive.
    Sets of Mark 1s on Summer Saturday services to the seaside. With freight locomotives going spare at the weekend providing traction.

    Happy days!
    More than thirty year ago (I'm getting old!) I was told a story by an ex-BR manager. He said that lots of stock was stored at Shoeburyness and other places in more-or-less serviceable condition. If there was ever a civil emergency, they could be taken into London on all lines, loaded up, and other locos at the 'country' end take them out again. The idea was to disperse as many people out of town as possible. He was in a team who worked out the logistics of it all. Normal operational practices and routines were to essentially be abandoned.

    It might be an urban myth. I've read similar elsewhere, but never seen anything authoritative. If true, it must have been a spectacular operation - which we thankfully never saw.
    There was an operation like that in 1940 to get the troops away from the Kent ports after Dunkirk.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    edited August 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Lol. This cannot be coincidence

    I mean where is the coincidence in the first and third set of pictures?

    Only the 2nd is a coincidence or of course the slogan could have been nicked. But even if a coincidence that is the whole point of coincidences. You don't go around pointing out the thousands on non coincidences do you? You only notice the very few that are coincidences. Coincidences are the unlikely things that will happen in the thousands of things that don't, if that makes sense. So they will happen and we all go 'what a coincidence'.

    Same argument for all those people who argue there must be a god because how could we be here like this without one. Well of course we can only say that because we are here. In all those many more places where sentient beings don't exist, nobody is saying ' bugger there can't be a god if this is all that was created'
    The last picture is truncated. Her outfit is identical
    Although the Scottish national colour is a dark blue, and there are a limited number of female suit designs, so I'm not sure it is that much of a surprise that you are able to find at least one time that the two wore very similar outfits.
    But look at the 3rd picture. Both of them have their eyes open and aren't sticking their tongue out. It's genuinely spooky.
  • Carnyx said:

    'Sixty-year-old Brian was one of the last miners at “the Big K”.... “Boris is our guy. He promised to sort out Brexit and he’s not like those other Tories. He’s promised to make things better.”

    ... his views on the prime minister had changed. “What a bastard! I can’t believe it.” He was angry not about the pandemic or government policy but an off-the-cuff remark Johnson made in Scotland last week.'
    From "Boris is our guy" to "What a bastard!". The two stages of dealing with Mr Johnson that everyone goes through. Doesn't matter whether it's personal or political.

    It's just a question of when.
    I live a couple of miles from the Big K site, and know lots of folk like Brian. I hope they all feel the same. Better late than never.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,500
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cases up again. We are losing.

    What would you propose? Lockdown 4? If vaccines aren't enough then what's the solution?
    It’s pretty clear that vaccines give about 6 months worth of protection from catching it, but hopefully much longer lasting protection from getting seriously ill. That might be why cases have hit a stubborn plateau. I also know several people testing positive for the second time now.

    If we are giving up on stopping cases, what’s most important of course is the ratio of hospitalisations to cases. This is happily far lower than where we are. But… there is a but.

    Gone are the days when we could say double vaxxed people aren’t going to hospital. They are. I have an acquaintance who just spent a week on O2 despite being double vaxxed, one of the cohort done early in the year.

    The vaccines probably saved his life but it was still a fairly close run thing. I imagine what we’ll see is the hospitalisations / cases ratios creep up a bit, and there will be an inevitable increase in cases with back to school/Uni/the office.

    Probably and hopefully not sufficiently badly to require another “lockdown”. But I’ve little doubt that the return to the office orders will be overturned within weeks, and schools will up creek again.

    Until the booster programme then gets ahead of it again. Come next winter hopefully they’ll be ahead of things a bit more than this one.
    Don't forget that the booster programme is going to be primarily Pfizer which is much faster acting than AZ (about 10 days vs 25 days to reach maximum efficacy) so people who got their second doses in Feb/March will all start getting their third doses and renewed immunity by the end of September. By the end of November all of groups 1-9 should have got their third dose should they want one.
    Next year’s boosters will presumably be tweaked and tested in time against delta (and whatever else), which if there’s not too much genetic drift will crush cases. This year that’s obviously not the case. And until we get boosters into the over 40s, things might be sticky.

    Rishi’s Great Back To The Office coercion attempts are quite clearly coming months too early, perhaps 6 months in fact. And it’s going to increase the chances of other restrictions being introduced. I am beginning to think the chancellor wears no clothes.
    The whole “Get Back to the Office” stuff is because they see the revenues from railways and city-based hospitality declining - but don’t understand that the commute is what people most hate about their job.

    Most of the politicians, of course, live right in the middle of London, a few minutes from anywhere, and are not on the 06:42 from Basingstoke or Swindon five days a week.
    Railways and city-based hospitality are there to serve the public.

    The public is not there to serve railways and city-based hospitality.

    If the railways aren't as busy any more going forwards then we should be looking at how to cut funding to the railways and redirect it to elsewhere instead - not trying to force people back onto the railways against their wishes.
    The problem, of course, is that a lot of railway costs are fixed. Perhaps some savings can be made in terms of train crew and rolling stock costs, but the infrastructure still needs maintaining and that pretty much stays the same however many trains you run.
    But a massive amount of that infrastructure, is only required for a few hours a day. If there’s no longer 2m people looking to get to a desk half a mile from Bank at 8am and not a minute later, the whole system becomes much easier to manage.
    Absolutely. Without rush hour the railway would need less rolling stock, and what they did have would have higher utilisation. Trains that do one morning turn and one evening turn are bleeding money.
    We used to keep old trains for low utilisation rotas, in the same way that bus companies use old buses cascaded from front line service, to use as school buses. Now all trains have to be standardised, and drivers aren’t allowed to drive just any train, only specific types they are certified to drive.
    Sets of Mark 1s on Summer Saturday services to the seaside. With freight locomotives going spare at the weekend providing traction.

    Happy days!
    More than thirty year ago (I'm getting old!) I was told a story by an ex-BR manager. He said that lots of stock was stored at Shoeburyness and other places in more-or-less serviceable condition. If there was ever a civil emergency, they could be taken into London on all lines, loaded up, and other locos at the 'country' end take them out again. The idea was to disperse as many people out of town as possible. He was in a team who worked out the logistics of it all. Normal operational practices and routines were to essentially be abandoned.

    It might be an urban myth. I've read similar elsewhere, but never seen anything authoritative. If true, it must have been a spectacular operation - which we thankfully never saw.
    If true, I would have thought the place to look for confirmation would be in Gerald Fiennes’ memoirs.

    They do include a section on planning for one major emergency - the evacuation of Kent and London in the event of a German invasion in 1940.
    "I tried to run a railway" is on my bookshelf. I can't remember a section on it, and am sure I would have remembered ...
    It’s one of his other books - Fiennes on Rails.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fiennes-Rails-Gerry/dp/0715389262
    Ah, thanks. I haven't read that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hugely excited to be able to announce my brand new show on @GBNews!

    Congratulations, Francis!
    LOL, They couldn't afford me.
    Perhaps not.
    But I’d watch at least one episode.
    We should pull together a PB a show for GB news.

    TSE - fashion tips
    Max - latest vaccine news
    Malmesbury - latest plague numbers
    Justin - random historical parallels
    Hyufd - polls and whatever the fuck CCO have said today
    CHB - rebuttal from Labour
    MalcolmG - to give the view from Scotland, which is that they hate everyone
    Eek and JJessop on computer coding
    Driving with Dura Ace
    And finally a stand up section with some awesome puns from me.
    Wouldn’t you be the education spokesman?
    I’d be banned for fifteen c bombs in the first five seconds.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Carnyx said:


    Mean, why not tell us what Mr J scored in Scotland? Or Wales and NI?

    We all know why not.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Lol. This cannot be coincidence

    I mean where is the coincidence in the first and third set of pictures?

    Only the 2nd is a coincidence or of course the slogan could have been nicked. But even if a coincidence that is the whole point of coincidences. You don't go around pointing out the thousands on non coincidences do you? You only notice the very few that are coincidences. Coincidences are the unlikely things that will happen in the thousands of things that don't, if that makes sense. So they will happen and we all go 'what a coincidence'.

    Same argument for all those people who argue there must be a god because how could we be here like this without one. Well of course we can only say that because we are here. In all those many more places where sentient beings don't exist, nobody is saying ' bugger there can't be a god if this is all that was created'
    The last picture is truncated. Her outfit is identical
    Although the Scottish national colour is a dark blue, and there are a limited number of female suit designs, so I'm not sure it is that much of a surprise that you are able to find at least one time that the two wore very similar outfits.
    But look at the 3rd picture. Both of them have their eyes open and aren't sticking their tongue out. It's genuinely spooky.
    Eh? To do otherwise might be normal for the current PM, but Mrs T and Ms S did/do like to have their eyes open most of the time and to look respectable. Not a remarkable coincidence.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393

    Carnyx said:


    Mean, why not tell us what Mr J scored in Scotland? Or Wales and NI?

    We all know why not.
    But Wales would have been interesting, also NI.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    edited August 2021
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hugely excited to be able to announce my brand new show on @GBNews!

    Congratulations, Francis!
    LOL, They couldn't afford me.
    Perhaps not.
    But I’d watch at least one episode.
    We should pull together a PB a show for GB news.

    TSE - fashion tips
    Max - latest vaccine news
    Malmesbury - latest plague numbers
    Justin - random historical parallels
    Hyufd - polls and whatever the fuck CCO have said today
    CHB - rebuttal from Labour
    MalcolmG - to give the view from Scotland, which is that they hate everyone
    Eek and JJessop on computer coding
    Driving with Dura Ace
    And finally a stand up section with some awesome puns from me.
    Would have the nerve and composure to do your puns in front of a TV audience though?

    Maybe after the GB news slot you could move and find out.
    I have to stand up before thirty rebellious children 22 times a week and teach them anything from the drug habits of eighteenth century politicians to why as fourteen year olds they shouldn’t be shagging each other.

    Believe me, I’ve no shortage of nerve.
    Ok. 30 is massive cf GB news so it'll be a piece of cake.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hugely excited to be able to announce my brand new show on @GBNews!

    Congratulations, Francis!
    LOL, They couldn't afford me.
    Perhaps not.
    But I’d watch at least one episode.
    We should pull together a PB a show for GB news.

    TSE - fashion tips
    Max - latest vaccine news
    Malmesbury - latest plague numbers
    Justin - random historical parallels
    Hyufd - polls and whatever the fuck CCO have said today
    CHB - rebuttal from Labour
    MalcolmG - to give the view from Scotland, which is that they hate everyone
    Eek and JJessop on computer coding
    Driving with Dura Ace
    And finally a stand up section with some awesome puns from me.
    Pinging Cyclefree to wonder why its an all male lineup.
    A betting section is notable by its absence
    How are you feeling about our £300/£100 Starmer bet now? Still like it?
    What was it again? He wont be PM after the next GE?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:


    Mean, why not tell us what Mr J scored in Scotland? Or Wales and NI?

    As the Tories only have 6 seats in Scotland, 0 in NI and Labour still have most seats in Wales.

    Labour will only get in by winning Tory seats in England, the SNP will prop up Labour anyway
    I talk about salmon and you talk about the same old herring you do every day.

    You are always telling us how much the Scots love Mr J. I was looking forward to seeing verification.
    Scots' opinion on Boris is irrelevant.

    He is UK PM not Scottish PM and as long as he remains PM he can also refuse a legal indyref2.

    Scots' opinion on Starmer might be relevant as he will need Scottish MPs support to become PM, Boris however was elected UK PM with an 80 seat majority despite losing in Scotland
    That's an, erm, interesting proposal. That excludes even Unionists for the crime of being Scottish.
    He posts before he thinks. The other way round leaves his copy n paste chore list redundant.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,144
    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hugely excited to be able to announce my brand new show on @GBNews!

    Congratulations, Francis!
    LOL, They couldn't afford me.
    Perhaps not.
    But I’d watch at least one episode.
    We should pull together a PB a show for GB news.

    TSE - fashion tips
    Max - latest vaccine news
    Malmesbury - latest plague numbers
    Justin - random historical parallels
    Hyufd - polls and whatever the fuck CCO have said today
    CHB - rebuttal from Labour
    MalcolmG - to give the view from Scotland, which is that they hate everyone
    Eek and JJessop on computer coding
    Driving with Dura Ace
    And finally a stand up section with some awesome puns from me.
    Pinging Cyclefree to wonder why its an all male lineup.
    A betting section is notable by its absence
    Quincel now leads on Saturday with a betting header. I did well on his tip for USA underperforming at the Olympics, though would have done better if the Chinese had picked up another couple.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cases up again. We are losing.

    What would you propose? Lockdown 4? If vaccines aren't enough then what's the solution?
    It’s pretty clear that vaccines give about 6 months worth of protection from catching it, but hopefully much longer lasting protection from getting seriously ill. That might be why cases have hit a stubborn plateau. I also know several people testing positive for the second time now.

    If we are giving up on stopping cases, what’s most important of course is the ratio of hospitalisations to cases. This is happily far lower than where we are. But… there is a but.

    Gone are the days when we could say double vaxxed people aren’t going to hospital. They are. I have an acquaintance who just spent a week on O2 despite being double vaxxed, one of the cohort done early in the year.

    The vaccines probably saved his life but it was still a fairly close run thing. I imagine what we’ll see is the hospitalisations / cases ratios creep up a bit, and there will be an inevitable increase in cases with back to school/Uni/the office.

    Probably and hopefully not sufficiently badly to require another “lockdown”. But I’ve little doubt that the return to the office orders will be overturned within weeks, and schools will up creek again.

    Until the booster programme then gets ahead of it again. Come next winter hopefully they’ll be ahead of things a bit more than this one.
    Don't forget that the booster programme is going to be primarily Pfizer which is much faster acting than AZ (about 10 days vs 25 days to reach maximum efficacy) so people who got their second doses in Feb/March will all start getting their third doses and renewed immunity by the end of September. By the end of November all of groups 1-9 should have got their third dose should they want one.
    Next year’s boosters will presumably be tweaked and tested in time against delta (and whatever else), which if there’s not too much genetic drift will crush cases. This year that’s obviously not the case. And until we get boosters into the over 40s, things might be sticky.

    Rishi’s Great Back To The Office coercion attempts are quite clearly coming months too early, perhaps 6 months in fact. And it’s going to increase the chances of other restrictions being introduced. I am beginning to think the chancellor wears no clothes.
    The whole “Get Back to the Office” stuff is because they see the revenues from railways and city-based hospitality declining - but don’t understand that the commute is what people most hate about their job.

    Most of the politicians, of course, live right in the middle of London, a few minutes from anywhere, and are not on the 06:42 from Basingstoke or Swindon five days a week.
    Railways and city-based hospitality are there to serve the public.

    The public is not there to serve railways and city-based hospitality.

    If the railways aren't as busy any more going forwards then we should be looking at how to cut funding to the railways and redirect it to elsewhere instead - not trying to force people back onto the railways against their wishes.
    The problem, of course, is that a lot of railway costs are fixed. Perhaps some savings can be made in terms of train crew and rolling stock costs, but the infrastructure still needs maintaining and that pretty much stays the same however many trains you run.
    But a massive amount of that infrastructure, is only required for a few hours a day. If there’s no longer 2m people looking to get to a desk half a mile from Bank at 8am and not a minute later, the whole system becomes much easier to manage.
    Absolutely. Without rush hour the railway would need less rolling stock, and what they did have would have higher utilisation. Trains that do one morning turn and one evening turn are bleeding money.
    We used to keep old trains for low utilisation rotas, in the same way that bus companies use old buses cascaded from front line service, to use as school buses. Now all trains have to be standardised, and drivers aren’t allowed to drive just any train, only specific types they are certified to drive.
    Sets of Mark 1s on Summer Saturday services to the seaside. With freight locomotives going spare at the weekend providing traction.

    Happy days!
    More than thirty year ago (I'm getting old!) I was told a story by an ex-BR manager. He said that lots of stock was stored at Shoeburyness and other places in more-or-less serviceable condition. If there was ever a civil emergency, they could be taken into London on all lines, loaded up, and other locos at the 'country' end take them out again. The idea was to disperse as many people out of town as possible. He was in a team who worked out the logistics of it all. Normal operational practices and routines were to essentially be abandoned.

    It might be an urban myth. I've read similar elsewhere, but never seen anything authoritative. If true, it must have been a spectacular operation - which we thankfully never saw.
    If true, I would have thought the place to look for confirmation would be in Gerald Fiennes’ memoirs.

    They do include a section on planning for one major emergency - the evacuation of Kent and London in the event of a German invasion in 1940.
    "I tried to run a railway" is on my bookshelf. I can't remember a section on it, and am sure I would have remembered ...
    It’s one of his other books - Fiennes on Rails.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fiennes-Rails-Gerry/dp/0715389262
    Ah, thanks. I haven't read that.
    Years since I read either, but from what I remember I Tried to Run a Railway is an account of the changes in the railway network during his career, as told while he progressed through the ranks, and Fiennes on Rails is a much more personal, chatty account of his life written at the end of it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:


    Mean, why not tell us what Mr J scored in Scotland? Or Wales and NI?

    As the Tories only have 6 seats in Scotland, 0 in NI and Labour still have most seats in Wales.

    Labour will only get in by winning Tory seats in England, the SNP will prop up Labour anyway
    I talk about salmon and you talk about the same old herring you do every day.

    You are always telling us how much the Scots love Mr J. I was looking forward to seeing verification.
    Scots' opinion on Boris is irrelevant.

    He is UK PM not Scottish PM and as long as he remains PM he can also refuse a legal indyref2.

    Scots' opinion on Starmer might be relevant as he will need Scottish MPs support to become PM, Boris however was elected UK PM with an 80 seat majority despite losing in Scotland
    That's an, erm, interesting proposal. That excludes even Unionists for the crime of being Scottish.
    He posts before he thinks. The other way round leaves his copy n paste chore list redundant.
    Even so, it bespeaks a certain attitude to the Union. And to the equality of the inhabitants of its constituent nations and principality.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Norway votes on September 13th - the latest poll (changes since the last election):

    Labour: 23.5% (-4)
    Conservative: 18% (-7)
    Centre Party: 16% (+6)
    Progress Party: 9% (-6)
    Socialist Left: 8.5% (+2.5)
    Red Party: 7.5% (+1.5)
    Greens: 4.5% (+1.5)
    Christian Democratic Party: 4% (unc)
    Liberal Party: 3% (-1.5%)

    The current centre-right ruling block (Conservatives, Christian Democrats and Liberals) looks in real trouble with the latter two struglging to get past the 4% threshold to get into the Storting.

    A Red-Green Coalition which in Norwegian terms means Labour, Centre and the Socialist Left looks the obvious alternative (this was the governing coalition in the Stoltenberg era)

    The revival of Centre has been the big feature of recent Norwegian politics - the leader Trgve Vedum was Agriculture Minister in the last Stoltenberg Government but has breathed new life into what was a declining party - it's now heading for its best result since 1993 when it got more seats than the Conservatives despite polling slightly fewer votes.

    I can’t make head nor tale of those pluses and minuses. Too many minuses. Is there some new party you’ve omitted?

    The Red (communist) party is actually up +5.1, rather than 1.5.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Carnyx said:

    'Sixty-year-old Brian was one of the last miners at “the Big K”.... “Boris is our guy. He promised to sort out Brexit and he’s not like those other Tories. He’s promised to make things better.”

    ... his views on the prime minister had changed. “What a bastard! I can’t believe it.” He was angry not about the pandemic or government policy but an off-the-cuff remark Johnson made in Scotland last week.'
    Sebastian Payne
    @SebastianEPayne
    Nor is Johnson’s comment just a problem in England, Thatcher's standing in Scotland is even lower.
    His visit north of the border was carefully choreographed to avoid controversy. But as one senior Scottish Tory says, “it was all ruined in one sentence”.

    'We need squirrels, lots of squirrels, like yesterday!'
    Pity the poor buggers tasked with cleaning up Johnson’s wee jobbies. He leaves the stinkers everywhere.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hugely excited to be able to announce my brand new show on @GBNews!

    Congratulations, Francis!
    LOL, They couldn't afford me.
    Perhaps not.
    But I’d watch at least one episode.
    We should pull together a PB a show for GB news.

    TSE - fashion tips
    Max - latest vaccine news
    Malmesbury - latest plague numbers
    Justin - random historical parallels
    Hyufd - polls and whatever the fuck CCO have said today
    CHB - rebuttal from Labour
    MalcolmG - to give the view from Scotland, which is that they hate everyone
    Eek and JJessop on computer coding
    Driving with Dura Ace
    And finally a stand up section with some awesome puns from me.
    Wouldn’t you be the education spokesman?
    I’d be banned for fifteen c bombs in the first five seconds.
    Cosmic puns?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cases up again. We are losing.

    What would you propose? Lockdown 4? If vaccines aren't enough then what's the solution?
    It’s pretty clear that vaccines give about 6 months worth of protection from catching it, but hopefully much longer lasting protection from getting seriously ill. That might be why cases have hit a stubborn plateau. I also know several people testing positive for the second time now.

    If we are giving up on stopping cases, what’s most important of course is the ratio of hospitalisations to cases. This is happily far lower than where we are. But… there is a but.

    Gone are the days when we could say double vaxxed people aren’t going to hospital. They are. I have an acquaintance who just spent a week on O2 despite being double vaxxed, one of the cohort done early in the year.

    The vaccines probably saved his life but it was still a fairly close run thing. I imagine what we’ll see is the hospitalisations / cases ratios creep up a bit, and there will be an inevitable increase in cases with back to school/Uni/the office.

    Probably and hopefully not sufficiently badly to require another “lockdown”. But I’ve little doubt that the return to the office orders will be overturned within weeks, and schools will up creek again.

    Until the booster programme then gets ahead of it again. Come next winter hopefully they’ll be ahead of things a bit more than this one.
    Don't forget that the booster programme is going to be primarily Pfizer which is much faster acting than AZ (about 10 days vs 25 days to reach maximum efficacy) so people who got their second doses in Feb/March will all start getting their third doses and renewed immunity by the end of September. By the end of November all of groups 1-9 should have got their third dose should they want one.
    Next year’s boosters will presumably be tweaked and tested in time against delta (and whatever else), which if there’s not too much genetic drift will crush cases. This year that’s obviously not the case. And until we get boosters into the over 40s, things might be sticky.

    Rishi’s Great Back To The Office coercion attempts are quite clearly coming months too early, perhaps 6 months in fact. And it’s going to increase the chances of other restrictions being introduced. I am beginning to think the chancellor wears no clothes.
    The whole “Get Back to the Office” stuff is because they see the revenues from railways and city-based hospitality declining - but don’t understand that the commute is what people most hate about their job.

    Most of the politicians, of course, live right in the middle of London, a few minutes from anywhere, and are not on the 06:42 from Basingstoke or Swindon five days a week.
    Railways and city-based hospitality are there to serve the public.

    The public is not there to serve railways and city-based hospitality.

    If the railways aren't as busy any more going forwards then we should be looking at how to cut funding to the railways and redirect it to elsewhere instead - not trying to force people back onto the railways against their wishes.
    The problem, of course, is that a lot of railway costs are fixed. Perhaps some savings can be made in terms of train crew and rolling stock costs, but the infrastructure still needs maintaining and that pretty much stays the same however many trains you run.
    But a massive amount of that infrastructure, is only required for a few hours a day. If there’s no longer 2m people looking to get to a desk half a mile from Bank at 8am and not a minute later, the whole system becomes much easier to manage.
    Absolutely. Without rush hour the railway would need less rolling stock, and what they did have would have higher utilisation. Trains that do one morning turn and one evening turn are bleeding money.
    We used to keep old trains for low utilisation rotas, in the same way that bus companies use old buses cascaded from front line service, to use as school buses. Now all trains have to be standardised, and drivers aren’t allowed to drive just any train, only specific types they are certified to drive.
    Sets of Mark 1s on Summer Saturday services to the seaside. With freight locomotives going spare at the weekend providing traction.

    Happy days!
    More than thirty year ago (I'm getting old!) I was told a story by an ex-BR manager. He said that lots of stock was stored at Shoeburyness and other places in more-or-less serviceable condition. If there was ever a civil emergency, they could be taken into London on all lines, loaded up, and other locos at the 'country' end take them out again. The idea was to disperse as many people out of town as possible. He was in a team who worked out the logistics of it all. Normal operational practices and routines were to essentially be abandoned.

    It might be an urban myth. I've read similar elsewhere, but never seen anything authoritative. If true, it must have been a spectacular operation - which we thankfully never saw.
    There was an operation like that in 1940 to get the troops away from the Kent ports after Dunkirk.
    And another in 1939 and indeed in 1914 to get the BEF to France via the Channel Ports.

    In this, they were enormously helped by the fact that four competing railway lines had all built large, prestigious express lines to the south coast. So there was no shortage of capacity, unlike in say, Russia.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,144

    IanB2 said:

    Lincoln continues to have the highest rate of cases of Covid-19 of any local authority area in England, according to the most recent published data. The city reported 617 new cases in the seven days to 6 August – the equivalent of 621.4 per 100,000 people. That was down from 716.0 per 100,000 in the seven days to 30 July.

    Of the 315 local areas in England, 187 (59%) have seen a week-on-week rise in rates, 126 (40%) have seen a fall and two are unchanged, according to a list calculated by the PA news agency, based on data published by Public Health England today.

    The figures are based on the number of people who have tested positive for Covid-19 in either a lab-reported or rapid lateral flow test, by specimen date. Data for the most recent four days (7-10 August) has been excluded as it is incomplete and does not reflect the true number of cases.

    Exeter had the second highest rate, up from 541.1 to 601.2, with 790 new cases. Hull had the third highest rate, up from 512.7 to 580.1, with 1,507 new cases.

    The five areas with the biggest week-on-week rises were:

    Peterborough (up from 301.1 to 441.0)
    Oadby and Wigston (249.1 to 384.1)
    Hinckley and Bosworth (272.2 to 394.2)
    Derby (235.1 to 338.1)
    Cambridge (322.1 to 423.1)

    The second two there are @Foxy territory I believe?
    Yes, though numbers in hospital bouncing between 80-100 for a month neither up nor down. 50% of admissions are post vaccination but on ICU/ECMO 100% are unvaxxed. Some are from out of area, mostly the West Midlands.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    edited August 2021

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Norway votes on September 13th - the latest poll (changes since the last election):

    Labour: 23.5% (-4)
    Conservative: 18% (-7)
    Centre Party: 16% (+6)
    Progress Party: 9% (-6)
    Socialist Left: 8.5% (+2.5)
    Red Party: 7.5% (+1.5)
    Greens: 4.5% (+1.5)
    Christian Democratic Party: 4% (unc)
    Liberal Party: 3% (-1.5%)

    The current centre-right ruling block (Conservatives, Christian Democrats and Liberals) looks in real trouble with the latter two struglging to get past the 4% threshold to get into the Storting.

    A Red-Green Coalition which in Norwegian terms means Labour, Centre and the Socialist Left looks the obvious alternative (this was the governing coalition in the Stoltenberg era)

    The revival of Centre has been the big feature of recent Norwegian politics - the leader Trgve Vedum was Agriculture Minister in the last Stoltenberg Government but has breathed new life into what was a declining party - it's now heading for its best result since 1993 when it got more seats than the Conservatives despite polling slightly fewer votes.

    I can’t make head nor tale of those pluses and minuses. Too many minuses. Is there some new party you’ve omitted?

    The Red (communist) party is actually up +5.1, rather than 1.5.
    Clearly haven’t been enough gulags recently.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Lincoln continues to have the highest rate of cases of Covid-19 of any local authority area in England, according to the most recent published data. The city reported 617 new cases in the seven days to 6 August – the equivalent of 621.4 per 100,000 people. That was down from 716.0 per 100,000 in the seven days to 30 July.

    Of the 315 local areas in England, 187 (59%) have seen a week-on-week rise in rates, 126 (40%) have seen a fall and two are unchanged, according to a list calculated by the PA news agency, based on data published by Public Health England today.

    The figures are based on the number of people who have tested positive for Covid-19 in either a lab-reported or rapid lateral flow test, by specimen date. Data for the most recent four days (7-10 August) has been excluded as it is incomplete and does not reflect the true number of cases.

    Exeter had the second highest rate, up from 541.1 to 601.2, with 790 new cases. Hull had the third highest rate, up from 512.7 to 580.1, with 1,507 new cases.

    The five areas with the biggest week-on-week rises were:

    Peterborough (up from 301.1 to 441.0)
    Oadby and Wigston (249.1 to 384.1)
    Hinckley and Bosworth (272.2 to 394.2)
    Derby (235.1 to 338.1)
    Cambridge (322.1 to 423.1)

    The second two there are @Foxy territory I believe?
    Yes, though numbers in hospital bouncing between 80-100 for a month neither up nor down. 50% of admissions are post vaccination but on ICU/ECMO 100% are unvaxxed. Some are from out of area, mostly the West Midlands.
    "ICU/ECMO 100% are unvaxxed"

    Chilling. Those who are refusing the vax after all we know now must be bloody bonkers.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Carnyx said:

    'Sixty-year-old Brian was one of the last miners at “the Big K”.... “Boris is our guy. He promised to sort out Brexit and he’s not like those other Tories. He’s promised to make things better.”

    ... his views on the prime minister had changed. “What a bastard! I can’t believe it.” He was angry not about the pandemic or government policy but an off-the-cuff remark Johnson made in Scotland last week.'
    From "Boris is our guy" to "What a bastard!". The two stages of dealing with Mr Johnson that everyone goes through. Doesn't matter whether it's personal or political.

    It's just a question of when.
    My question is when will Blair’s infamous Middle England achieve revelation?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,500

    Carnyx said:


    Mean, why not tell us what Mr J scored in Scotland? Or Wales and NI?

    We all know why not.
    How I scored in Scotland? Well, on one hiking trip in 2000, I met a Scottish lass at a campsite in the Borders; a Canadian in the Pizza Hut in Cockburn Street, and an Aussie (who became my long-term GF) in a backpackers' hostel on the same street.

    As for the why not tell: there isn't enough mind bleach in the world ... ;)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I see we are back to anecdotal stories about I know somebody who got it despite been jabbed etc etc etc.

    Not to downplay that unfortunately people will get it, some will get it bad, but we don't do this for any other disease. We all know somebody who got cancer, had a terrible heart attack etc etc etc, with doctors saying they had a lucky escape there, and we don't then run into the fall out shelter.

    Humans are terrible at assessing risk and fixate on the horror stories e.g. why people are shit scared of shark attacks, despite you having basically no risk of actually suffering on, in comparison to getting in their car every day (and many being very naughty and driving at speed).

    What we need to see is the latest data on how the vaccines are holding up. The last time it all looked bang in line with the initial PHE estimates with well into the 90% reduction in hospitalization, and nothing like the initial scare data from Israel. The US is also looking good at the moment in terms of among the vaccinated.

    There was data that I saw yesterday that had Moderna still at 76% vs Delta. Not clear whether that is a delta effect vs passage of time. Both still very good vs. hospitalisation which is what actually matters, not cases.

    The mRNA vaccine from Pfizer and BioNTech may be less effective than Moderna's against the Delta variant of the coronavirus, according to two reports posted on medRxiv on Sunday ahead of peer review. In a study of more than 50,000 patients in the Mayo Clinic Health System https://bit.ly/37Btmhf, researchers found the effectiveness of Moderna's vaccine against infection had dropped to 76% in July - when the Delta variant was predominant - from 86% in early 2021. Over the same period, the effectiveness of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine had fallen to 42% from 76%, researchers said. While both vaccines remain effective at preventing COVID hospitalization, a Moderna booster shot may be necessary soon for anyone who got the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines earlier this year, said Dr. Venky Soundararajan of Massachusetts data analytics company nference, who led the Mayo study.

    https://news.yahoo.com/moderna-may-superior-pfizer-against-204309306.html

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Lincoln continues to have the highest rate of cases of Covid-19 of any local authority area in England, according to the most recent published data. The city reported 617 new cases in the seven days to 6 August – the equivalent of 621.4 per 100,000 people. That was down from 716.0 per 100,000 in the seven days to 30 July.

    Of the 315 local areas in England, 187 (59%) have seen a week-on-week rise in rates, 126 (40%) have seen a fall and two are unchanged, according to a list calculated by the PA news agency, based on data published by Public Health England today.

    The figures are based on the number of people who have tested positive for Covid-19 in either a lab-reported or rapid lateral flow test, by specimen date. Data for the most recent four days (7-10 August) has been excluded as it is incomplete and does not reflect the true number of cases.

    Exeter had the second highest rate, up from 541.1 to 601.2, with 790 new cases. Hull had the third highest rate, up from 512.7 to 580.1, with 1,507 new cases.

    The five areas with the biggest week-on-week rises were:

    Peterborough (up from 301.1 to 441.0)
    Oadby and Wigston (249.1 to 384.1)
    Hinckley and Bosworth (272.2 to 394.2)
    Derby (235.1 to 338.1)
    Cambridge (322.1 to 423.1)

    The second two there are @Foxy territory I believe?
    Yes, though numbers in hospital bouncing between 80-100 for a month neither up nor down. 50% of admissions are post vaccination but on ICU/ECMO 100% are unvaxxed. Some are from out of area, mostly the West Midlands.
    "ICU/ECMO 100% are unvaxxed"

    Chilling. Those who are refusing the vax after all we know now must be bloody bonkers.
    It’s almost becoming a form of eugenics but it’s self inflicted.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Lincoln continues to have the highest rate of cases of Covid-19 of any local authority area in England, according to the most recent published data. The city reported 617 new cases in the seven days to 6 August – the equivalent of 621.4 per 100,000 people. That was down from 716.0 per 100,000 in the seven days to 30 July.

    Of the 315 local areas in England, 187 (59%) have seen a week-on-week rise in rates, 126 (40%) have seen a fall and two are unchanged, according to a list calculated by the PA news agency, based on data published by Public Health England today.

    The figures are based on the number of people who have tested positive for Covid-19 in either a lab-reported or rapid lateral flow test, by specimen date. Data for the most recent four days (7-10 August) has been excluded as it is incomplete and does not reflect the true number of cases.

    Exeter had the second highest rate, up from 541.1 to 601.2, with 790 new cases. Hull had the third highest rate, up from 512.7 to 580.1, with 1,507 new cases.

    The five areas with the biggest week-on-week rises were:

    Peterborough (up from 301.1 to 441.0)
    Oadby and Wigston (249.1 to 384.1)
    Hinckley and Bosworth (272.2 to 394.2)
    Derby (235.1 to 338.1)
    Cambridge (322.1 to 423.1)

    The second two there are @Foxy territory I believe?
    Yes, though numbers in hospital bouncing between 80-100 for a month neither up nor down. 50% of admissions are post vaccination but on ICU/ECMO 100% are unvaxxed. Some are from out of area, mostly the West Midlands.
    Thanks for the update, Foxy. That latter is quite telling. The vaccines are all excellent for their intended purpose.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    From a previous thread - well done to @TSE re his bet on Cuomo resigning. I didn't think it would happen but it has so a great winning bet
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393

    Carnyx said:


    Mean, why not tell us what Mr J scored in Scotland? Or Wales and NI?

    We all know why not.
    How I scored in Scotland? Well, on one hiking trip in 2000, I met a Scottish lass at a campsite in the Borders; a Canadian in the Pizza Hut in Cockburn Street, and an Aussie (who became my long-term GF) in a backpackers' hostel on the same street.

    As for the why not tell: there isn't enough mind bleach in the world ... ;)
    I'm obviously too respectful to the PM - everyone seems to think I can't possibly be talking about 'Boris' [sic].
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Norway votes on September 13th - the latest poll (changes since the last election):

    Labour: 23.5% (-4)
    Conservative: 18% (-7)
    Centre Party: 16% (+6)
    Progress Party: 9% (-6)
    Socialist Left: 8.5% (+2.5)
    Red Party: 7.5% (+1.5)
    Greens: 4.5% (+1.5)
    Christian Democratic Party: 4% (unc)
    Liberal Party: 3% (-1.5%)

    The current centre-right ruling block (Conservatives, Christian Democrats and Liberals) looks in real trouble with the latter two struglging to get past the 4% threshold to get into the Storting.

    A Red-Green Coalition which in Norwegian terms means Labour, Centre and the Socialist Left looks the obvious alternative (this was the governing coalition in the Stoltenberg era)

    The revival of Centre has been the big feature of recent Norwegian politics - the leader Trgve Vedum was Agriculture Minister in the last Stoltenberg Government but has breathed new life into what was a declining party - it's now heading for its best result since 1993 when it got more seats than the Conservatives despite polling slightly fewer votes.

    I can’t make head nor tale of those pluses and minuses. Too many minuses. Is there some new party you’ve omitted?

    The Red (communist) party is actually up +5.1, rather than 1.5.
    Aha! Many thanks Nick.

    The Left (formerly Communist) party of Sweden seem to also be doing well. Hope I’m not forced into reciting the Little Red Book anytime soon.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    FL looking really grim.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,685
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Lincoln continues to have the highest rate of cases of Covid-19 of any local authority area in England, according to the most recent published data. The city reported 617 new cases in the seven days to 6 August – the equivalent of 621.4 per 100,000 people. That was down from 716.0 per 100,000 in the seven days to 30 July.

    Of the 315 local areas in England, 187 (59%) have seen a week-on-week rise in rates, 126 (40%) have seen a fall and two are unchanged, according to a list calculated by the PA news agency, based on data published by Public Health England today.

    The figures are based on the number of people who have tested positive for Covid-19 in either a lab-reported or rapid lateral flow test, by specimen date. Data for the most recent four days (7-10 August) has been excluded as it is incomplete and does not reflect the true number of cases.

    Exeter had the second highest rate, up from 541.1 to 601.2, with 790 new cases. Hull had the third highest rate, up from 512.7 to 580.1, with 1,507 new cases.

    The five areas with the biggest week-on-week rises were:

    Peterborough (up from 301.1 to 441.0)
    Oadby and Wigston (249.1 to 384.1)
    Hinckley and Bosworth (272.2 to 394.2)
    Derby (235.1 to 338.1)
    Cambridge (322.1 to 423.1)

    The second two there are @Foxy territory I believe?
    Yes, though numbers in hospital bouncing between 80-100 for a month neither up nor down. 50% of admissions are post vaccination but on ICU/ECMO 100% are unvaxxed. Some are from out of area, mostly the West Midlands.
    "ICU/ECMO 100% are unvaxxed"

    Chilling. Those who are refusing the vax after all we know now must be bloody bonkers.
    It’s almost becoming a form of eugenics but it’s self inflicted.
    Sadly the age factor means they have probably already succeeded in passing on their genetic inheritance...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited August 2021
    Charles said:

    I see we are back to anecdotal stories about I know somebody who got it despite been jabbed etc etc etc.

    Not to downplay that unfortunately people will get it, some will get it bad, but we don't do this for any other disease. We all know somebody who got cancer, had a terrible heart attack etc etc etc, with doctors saying they had a lucky escape there, and we don't then run into the fall out shelter.

    Humans are terrible at assessing risk and fixate on the horror stories e.g. why people are shit scared of shark attacks, despite you having basically no risk of actually suffering on, in comparison to getting in their car every day (and many being very naughty and driving at speed).

    What we need to see is the latest data on how the vaccines are holding up. The last time it all looked bang in line with the initial PHE estimates with well into the 90% reduction in hospitalization, and nothing like the initial scare data from Israel. The US is also looking good at the moment in terms of among the vaccinated.

    There was data that I saw yesterday that had Moderna still at 76% vs Delta. Not clear whether that is a delta effect vs passage of time. Both still very good vs. hospitalisation which is what actually matters, not cases.

    The mRNA vaccine from Pfizer and BioNTech may be less effective than Moderna's against the Delta variant of the coronavirus, according to two reports posted on medRxiv on Sunday ahead of peer review. In a study of more than 50,000 patients in the Mayo Clinic Health System https://bit.ly/37Btmhf, researchers found the effectiveness of Moderna's vaccine against infection had dropped to 76% in July - when the Delta variant was predominant - from 86% in early 2021. Over the same period, the effectiveness of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine had fallen to 42% from 76%, researchers said. While both vaccines remain effective at preventing COVID hospitalization, a Moderna booster shot may be necessary soon for anyone who got the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines earlier this year, said Dr. Venky Soundararajan of Massachusetts data analytics company nference, who led the Mayo study.

    https://news.yahoo.com/moderna-may-superior-pfizer-against-204309306.html

    "Over the same period, the effectiveness of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine had fallen to 42% from 76%, researchers said. "

    That's a huge reduction...The UK numbers are far higher than that, even with AZN. 40% is one shot territory.

    Perhaps 8-12 weeks really is the magic number.

    Seems rather odd that Moderna is working so much better than Pfizer in that data (and 76% is much more align with UK numbers for mRNA vaccine), when every other study we see they are normally virtually no difference.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Carnyx said:


    Mean, why not tell us what Mr J scored in Scotland? Or Wales and NI?

    We all know why not.
    How I scored in Scotland? Well, on one hiking trip in 2000, I met a Scottish lass at a campsite in the Borders; a Canadian in the Pizza Hut in Cockburn Street, and an Aussie (who became my long-term GF) in a backpackers' hostel on the same street.

    As for the why not tell: there isn't enough mind bleach in the world ... ;)
    The question was what Mr J scored, not who Mr J scored with. The mind boggles. He does look a wee bit like a Heilan Coo
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Norway votes on September 13th - the latest poll (changes since the last election):

    Labour: 23.5% (-4)
    Conservative: 18% (-7)
    Centre Party: 16% (+6)
    Progress Party: 9% (-6)
    Socialist Left: 8.5% (+2.5)
    Red Party: 7.5% (+1.5)
    Greens: 4.5% (+1.5)
    Christian Democratic Party: 4% (unc)
    Liberal Party: 3% (-1.5%)

    The current centre-right ruling block (Conservatives, Christian Democrats and Liberals) looks in real trouble with the latter two struglging to get past the 4% threshold to get into the Storting.

    A Red-Green Coalition which in Norwegian terms means Labour, Centre and the Socialist Left looks the obvious alternative (this was the governing coalition in the Stoltenberg era)

    The revival of Centre has been the big feature of recent Norwegian politics - the leader Trgve Vedum was Agriculture Minister in the last Stoltenberg Government but has breathed new life into what was a declining party - it's now heading for its best result since 1993 when it got more seats than the Conservatives despite polling slightly fewer votes.

    I can’t make head nor tale of those pluses and minuses. Too many minuses. Is there some new party you’ve omitted?

    The Red (communist) party is actually up +5.1, rather than 1.5.
    Aha! Many thanks Nick.

    The Left (formerly Communist) party of Sweden seem to also be doing well. Hope I’m not forced into reciting the Little Red Book anytime soon.
    It’s a big step up on Scotland’s Future, that’s for sure.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,260
    edited August 2021

    Sandpit said:

    ITV reporting cricket is seeking to become an Olympic sport

    Noooo. Olympic sports should be for amateurs, and they should spend four years doing nothing else but wishing for that performance. Golf, Tennis, Basketball etc totally devalues the medal.
    Much worse than that.

    India will eventually win the gold a the Olympics and it'll start their obsession with the Olympics the way winning the 1983 world cup did for one day cricket and the 2007 T20 world cup with T20 cricket.
    And the gambling syndicates will fix it ?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    FL looking really grim.

    Not a fan of the parks myself. Disney especially.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569


    Aha! Many thanks Nick.

    The Left (formerly Communist) party of Sweden seem to also be doing well. Hope I’m not forced into reciting the Little Red Book anytime soon.

    lol - yes, up from 8 to 13. You should be OK, unless they've changed? - when I lived in Denmark I was a big fan of C.H. Hermansson, who together with Berlinguer in Italy defined the whole idea of democratic Eurocommunism and transformed the Swedish party - IIRC he had a political outlook roughly like Ed Miliband with an agreeably quiet manner. Len McCluskey would have thought him a total wimp.

    Politeness goes a long way with me.
  • malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cases up again. We are losing.

    What would you propose? Lockdown 4? If vaccines aren't enough then what's the solution?
    It’s pretty clear that vaccines give about 6 months worth of protection from catching it, but hopefully much longer lasting protection from getting seriously ill. That might be why cases have hit a stubborn plateau. I also know several people testing positive for the second time now.

    If we are giving up on stopping cases, what’s most important of course is the ratio of hospitalisations to cases. This is happily far lower than where we are. But… there is a but.

    Gone are the days when we could say double vaxxed people aren’t going to hospital. They are. I have an acquaintance who just spent a week on O2 despite being double vaxxed, one of the cohort done early in the year.

    The vaccines probably saved his life but it was still a fairly close run thing. I imagine what we’ll see is the hospitalisations / cases ratios creep up a bit, and there will be an inevitable increase in cases with back to school/Uni/the office.

    Probably and hopefully not sufficiently badly to require another “lockdown”. But I’ve little doubt that the return to the office orders will be overturned within weeks, and schools will up creek again.

    Until the booster programme then gets ahead of it again. Come next winter hopefully they’ll be ahead of things a bit more than this one.
    Don't forget that the booster programme is going to be primarily Pfizer which is much faster acting than AZ (about 10 days vs 25 days to reach maximum efficacy) so people who got their second doses in Feb/March will all start getting their third doses and renewed immunity by the end of September. By the end of November all of groups 1-9 should have got their third dose should they want one.
    Next year’s boosters will presumably be tweaked and tested in time against delta (and whatever else), which if there’s not too much genetic drift will crush cases. This year that’s obviously not the case. And until we get boosters into the over 40s, things might be sticky.

    Rishi’s Great Back To The Office coercion attempts are quite clearly coming months too early, perhaps 6 months in fact. And it’s going to increase the chances of other restrictions being introduced. I am beginning to think the chancellor wears no clothes.
    The whole “Get Back to the Office” stuff is because they see the revenues from railways and city-based hospitality declining - but don’t understand that the commute is what people most hate about their job.

    Most of the politicians, of course, live right in the middle of London, a few minutes from anywhere, and are not on the 06:42 from Basingstoke or Swindon five days a week.
    Railways and city-based hospitality are there to serve the public.

    The public is not there to serve railways and city-based hospitality.

    If the railways aren't as busy any more going forwards then we should be looking at how to cut funding to the railways and redirect it to elsewhere instead - not trying to force people back onto the railways against their wishes.
    Railways are there to serve shareholders, that is what private business entails.
    The railways model in England has been transformed into one where the operators are almost like utility companies, in their tediousness to manage or externally evaluate. Their only real USP in tendering now will be their track record on timely and clean services, and the efficiency of their opex.

    All of the revenue risk has already been assumed by the taxpayer, initially by emergency covid measures. As we speak, that arrangement is being legally formalised for operators into the medium term, who are currently bidding for the concession contracts on a preferred / sole bidder basis. Massive tax payer funded bail out for largely foreign owned operators basically, and they’re still free to pay dividends in the mean time. So if that is what you mean by “there to serve the shareholders”, yes. But it’s being done without any of risk that private business normally entails.
    Nationalise the railways and run them properly for the needs of the public. Some things work privately owned and other don't. That's not ideological, it's logical
    The best route forward is probably going to be concession agreements, rather than franchises or public operators.

    This has most of the benefits of private operation, and most of the benefits of public ownership.

    (This post is totally unrelated to the extensive work I’m currently doing on concession agreements. For utilities, rather than railways, but the same principals apply.)
    Genuine question, in such a model how does the operation honestly differ between a state concession vs one by the German Government company. What do the Germans offer?
    The Germans are running it professionally and not politically.

    Almost every single argument made by those who want the state to interfere, is precisely why the British state should not.
    Jesus Christ, have you ever been on a German state company provided train in this country?
    I only take trains once every few years.
    And yet you feel you have the knowledge to talk to somebody who uses them mostly every day. You really do talk out of your rear
    One of the thing that amuses me about conversations about the railways is that, eventually, it comes down to "I'm a passenger! I know how to run the railway!"

    It leads to such hilarity as the unions / Labour producing long and worthy documents about how they would change the system, that only mentions railfreight once. Because railfreight is evidently unimpotant.

    The railways are a massively complex system, and the idea that you, as a regular passenger, automatically know how it should be run or structured is slightly odd.

    I go to the supermarket regularly. I don't pretend to fully understand their logistics chains, or how to improve it.
    I remember British Railways and nobody should want to go back to those days
    1980s-era BR was actually quite efficient. But it was also managing a shrinking system, something that's much easier to do than managing an expanding system. You are rationalising and cutting, rather than building. It was also - with a couple of exceptions - not customer focussed.

    The pre-Covid expansion in passenger numbers after privatisation would have seemed like an impossible dream in the mid-1980s. Likewise safety (yes, really). The only disappointment is that railfreight didn't pick up to the same degree - and that was partly because of the death of loadhaul coal.
    I used British Railways most every working day between 1960 and 1963 and it was terrible
    With respect Big_G, lots of things were terrible 60 years ago. Look at the (then privately run) British Car industry in the early 60s.
    The Tory government who had then been nominally in charge of British Railways for 10+ years must have been really terrible!
    Did you experience BR 60 years ago
    I did, steam trains were brilliant
    Dirty, smelly, noisy, inefficient, and they pumped out lots of carbon into the atmosphere.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,228

    Sets of Mark 1s on Summer Saturday services to the seaside. With freight locomotives going spare at the weekend providing traction.

    Happy days!

    The downside was suburban units that didn’t go further than Wimbledon during the week, being used for services to Portsmouth at weekends.

    Southern Region. Not a proper railway.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032


    Aha! Many thanks Nick.

    The Left (formerly Communist) party of Sweden seem to also be doing well. Hope I’m not forced into reciting the Little Red Book anytime soon.

    lol - yes, up from 8 to 13. You should be OK, unless they've changed? - when I lived in Denmark I was a big fan of C.H. Hermansson, who together with Berlinguer in Italy defined the whole idea of democratic Eurocommunism and transformed the Swedish party - IIRC he had a political outlook roughly like Ed Miliband with an agreeably quiet manner. Len McCluskey would have thought him a total wimp.

    Politeness goes a long way with me.
    Would you mind awfully attending this re-education camp?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,500
    On F1:

    Aston Martin's first appeal against Seb Vettel's disqualification from the Hungarian GP has been thrown out. Since it seemed to consist of: "Yes, FIA, you're right, we didn't have enough fuel in the tank at the end of the race. But we had a leak and lost some. Our calculations show we should have had enough..." , it is probably to be expected.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/58152978

    I'm not Vettel's biggest fan, but it's a shame he got dq'ed after such an exciting race. But the rules are the rules ...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,500

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cases up again. We are losing.

    What would you propose? Lockdown 4? If vaccines aren't enough then what's the solution?
    It’s pretty clear that vaccines give about 6 months worth of protection from catching it, but hopefully much longer lasting protection from getting seriously ill. That might be why cases have hit a stubborn plateau. I also know several people testing positive for the second time now.

    If we are giving up on stopping cases, what’s most important of course is the ratio of hospitalisations to cases. This is happily far lower than where we are. But… there is a but.

    Gone are the days when we could say double vaxxed people aren’t going to hospital. They are. I have an acquaintance who just spent a week on O2 despite being double vaxxed, one of the cohort done early in the year.

    The vaccines probably saved his life but it was still a fairly close run thing. I imagine what we’ll see is the hospitalisations / cases ratios creep up a bit, and there will be an inevitable increase in cases with back to school/Uni/the office.

    Probably and hopefully not sufficiently badly to require another “lockdown”. But I’ve little doubt that the return to the office orders will be overturned within weeks, and schools will up creek again.

    Until the booster programme then gets ahead of it again. Come next winter hopefully they’ll be ahead of things a bit more than this one.
    Don't forget that the booster programme is going to be primarily Pfizer which is much faster acting than AZ (about 10 days vs 25 days to reach maximum efficacy) so people who got their second doses in Feb/March will all start getting their third doses and renewed immunity by the end of September. By the end of November all of groups 1-9 should have got their third dose should they want one.
    Next year’s boosters will presumably be tweaked and tested in time against delta (and whatever else), which if there’s not too much genetic drift will crush cases. This year that’s obviously not the case. And until we get boosters into the over 40s, things might be sticky.

    Rishi’s Great Back To The Office coercion attempts are quite clearly coming months too early, perhaps 6 months in fact. And it’s going to increase the chances of other restrictions being introduced. I am beginning to think the chancellor wears no clothes.
    The whole “Get Back to the Office” stuff is because they see the revenues from railways and city-based hospitality declining - but don’t understand that the commute is what people most hate about their job.

    Most of the politicians, of course, live right in the middle of London, a few minutes from anywhere, and are not on the 06:42 from Basingstoke or Swindon five days a week.
    Railways and city-based hospitality are there to serve the public.

    The public is not there to serve railways and city-based hospitality.

    If the railways aren't as busy any more going forwards then we should be looking at how to cut funding to the railways and redirect it to elsewhere instead - not trying to force people back onto the railways against their wishes.
    Railways are there to serve shareholders, that is what private business entails.
    The railways model in England has been transformed into one where the operators are almost like utility companies, in their tediousness to manage or externally evaluate. Their only real USP in tendering now will be their track record on timely and clean services, and the efficiency of their opex.

    All of the revenue risk has already been assumed by the taxpayer, initially by emergency covid measures. As we speak, that arrangement is being legally formalised for operators into the medium term, who are currently bidding for the concession contracts on a preferred / sole bidder basis. Massive tax payer funded bail out for largely foreign owned operators basically, and they’re still free to pay dividends in the mean time. So if that is what you mean by “there to serve the shareholders”, yes. But it’s being done without any of risk that private business normally entails.
    Nationalise the railways and run them properly for the needs of the public. Some things work privately owned and other don't. That's not ideological, it's logical
    The best route forward is probably going to be concession agreements, rather than franchises or public operators.

    This has most of the benefits of private operation, and most of the benefits of public ownership.

    (This post is totally unrelated to the extensive work I’m currently doing on concession agreements. For utilities, rather than railways, but the same principals apply.)
    Genuine question, in such a model how does the operation honestly differ between a state concession vs one by the German Government company. What do the Germans offer?
    The Germans are running it professionally and not politically.

    Almost every single argument made by those who want the state to interfere, is precisely why the British state should not.
    Jesus Christ, have you ever been on a German state company provided train in this country?
    I only take trains once every few years.
    And yet you feel you have the knowledge to talk to somebody who uses them mostly every day. You really do talk out of your rear
    One of the thing that amuses me about conversations about the railways is that, eventually, it comes down to "I'm a passenger! I know how to run the railway!"

    It leads to such hilarity as the unions / Labour producing long and worthy documents about how they would change the system, that only mentions railfreight once. Because railfreight is evidently unimpotant.

    The railways are a massively complex system, and the idea that you, as a regular passenger, automatically know how it should be run or structured is slightly odd.

    I go to the supermarket regularly. I don't pretend to fully understand their logistics chains, or how to improve it.
    I remember British Railways and nobody should want to go back to those days
    1980s-era BR was actually quite efficient. But it was also managing a shrinking system, something that's much easier to do than managing an expanding system. You are rationalising and cutting, rather than building. It was also - with a couple of exceptions - not customer focussed.

    The pre-Covid expansion in passenger numbers after privatisation would have seemed like an impossible dream in the mid-1980s. Likewise safety (yes, really). The only disappointment is that railfreight didn't pick up to the same degree - and that was partly because of the death of loadhaul coal.
    I used British Railways most every working day between 1960 and 1963 and it was terrible
    With respect Big_G, lots of things were terrible 60 years ago. Look at the (then privately run) British Car industry in the early 60s.
    The Tory government who had then been nominally in charge of British Railways for 10+ years must have been really terrible!
    Did you experience BR 60 years ago
    I did, steam trains were brilliant
    Dirty, smelly, noisy, inefficient, and they pumped out lots of carbon into the atmosphere.
    Ssssh! They'll be banning steam heritage railways next!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064


    Aha! Many thanks Nick.

    The Left (formerly Communist) party of Sweden seem to also be doing well. Hope I’m not forced into reciting the Little Red Book anytime soon.

    lol - yes, up from 8 to 13. You should be OK, unless they've changed? - when I lived in Denmark I was a big fan of C.H. Hermansson, who together with Berlinguer in Italy defined the whole idea of democratic Eurocommunism and transformed the Swedish party - IIRC he had a political outlook roughly like Ed Miliband with an agreeably quiet manner. Len McCluskey would have thought him a total wimp.

    Politeness goes a long way with me.
    Having your assets expropriated is all good when they do it politely!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    MrEd said:

    From a previous thread - well done to @TSE re his bet on Cuomo resigning. I didn't think it would happen but it has so a great winning bet

    You were applying Republican standards.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited August 2021


    Aha! Many thanks Nick.

    The Left (formerly Communist) party of Sweden seem to also be doing well. Hope I’m not forced into reciting the Little Red Book anytime soon.

    lol - yes, up from 8 to 13. You should be OK, unless they've changed? - when I lived in Denmark I was a big fan of C.H. Hermansson, who together with Berlinguer in Italy defined the whole idea of democratic Eurocommunism and transformed the Swedish party - IIRC he had a political outlook roughly like Ed Miliband with an agreeably quiet manner. Len McCluskey would have thought him a total wimp.

    Politeness goes a long way with me.
    Interesting you use the term "Eurocommunism" to mean "a political outlook roughly like Ed Miliband" - that's what Peter Hitchens calls Blairism
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223

    On F1:

    Aston Martin's first appeal against Seb Vettel's disqualification from the Hungarian GP has been thrown out. Since it seemed to consist of: "Yes, FIA, you're right, we didn't have enough fuel in the tank at the end of the race. But we had a leak and lost some. Our calculations show we should have had enough..." , it is probably to be expected.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/58152978

    I'm not Vettel's biggest fan, but it's a shame he got dq'ed after such an exciting race. But the rules are the rules ...

    It was an odd thing to happen considering they spent the race behind another car.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    edited August 2021
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hugely excited to be able to announce my brand new show on @GBNews!

    Congratulations, Francis!
    LOL, They couldn't afford me.
    Perhaps not.
    But I’d watch at least one episode.
    We should pull together a PB a show for GB news.

    TSE - fashion tips
    Max - latest vaccine news
    Malmesbury - latest plague numbers
    Justin - random historical parallels
    Hyufd - polls and whatever the fuck CCO have said today
    CHB - rebuttal from Labour
    MalcolmG - to give the view from Scotland, which is that they hate everyone
    Eek and JJessop on computer coding
    Driving with Dura Ace
    And finally a stand up section with some awesome puns from me.
    Pinging Cyclefree to wonder why its an all male lineup.
    A betting section is notable by its absence
    How are you feeling about our £300/£100 Starmer bet now? Still like it?
    What was it again? He wont be PM after the next GE?
    If you can't remember a bet why the fuck are we doing it?

    Shape up. :smile:
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    edited August 2021
    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Lol. This cannot be coincidence

    I mean where is the coincidence in the first and third set of pictures?

    Only the 2nd is a coincidence or of course the slogan could have been nicked. But even if a coincidence that is the whole point of coincidences. You don't go around pointing out the thousands on non coincidences do you? You only notice the very few that are coincidences. Coincidences are the unlikely things that will happen in the thousands of things that don't, if that makes sense. So they will happen and we all go 'what a coincidence'.

    Same argument for all those people who argue there must be a god because how could we be here like this without one. Well of course we can only say that because we are here. In all those many more places where sentient beings don't exist, nobody is saying ' bugger there can't be a god if this is all that was created'
    The last picture is truncated. Her outfit is identical
    Although the Scottish national colour is a dark blue, and there are a limited number of female suit designs, so I'm not sure it is that much of a surprise that you are able to find at least one time that the two wore very similar outfits.
    But look at the 3rd picture. Both of them have their eyes open and aren't sticking their tongue out. It's genuinely spooky.
    Eh? To do otherwise might be normal for the current PM, but Mrs T and Ms S did/do like to have their eyes open most of the time and to look respectable. Not a remarkable coincidence.
    How loud does my sarcasm klaxon have to be FFS? :smile:
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Bolton is rising again, maybe it can beat out Lincoln.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    I imagine the regions on the right of the graph think for some reason that Johnson would be better qualified than Sunak to take penalties for England.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,500
    tlg86 said:

    On F1:

    Aston Martin's first appeal against Seb Vettel's disqualification from the Hungarian GP has been thrown out. Since it seemed to consist of: "Yes, FIA, you're right, we didn't have enough fuel in the tank at the end of the race. But we had a leak and lost some. Our calculations show we should have had enough..." , it is probably to be expected.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/58152978

    I'm not Vettel's biggest fan, but it's a shame he got dq'ed after such an exciting race. But the rules are the rules ...

    It was an odd thing to happen considering they spent the race behind another car.
    They were blooming lucky to be able to complete the race if they only had 0.3 litres left.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    From a previous thread - well done to @TSE re his bet on Cuomo resigning. I didn't think it would happen but it has so a great winning bet

    You were applying Republican standards.
    Nope. I was applying Cuomo standards.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    The head of the Road Haulage Association tells Sky News he can see problems with refuse collection adding to the deteriorating consequences of the UK's HGV driver shortage https://trib.al/FWDLwnD
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited August 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    The head of the Road Haulage Association tells Sky News he can see problems with refuse collection adding to the deteriorating consequences of the UK's HGV driver shortage https://trib.al/FWDLwnD

    I think that's already happening, there have been a few weeks where it's not been collected on the right day round here recently

    Popped into Tesco's in Cranham today on my #emptyshelfwatch - full to the brim.

    Maybe the dustmen are driving the Supermarket lorries in RM14!

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Norway votes on September 13th - the latest poll (changes since the last election):

    Labour: 23.5% (-4)
    Conservative: 18% (-7)
    Centre Party: 16% (+6)
    Progress Party: 9% (-6)
    Socialist Left: 8.5% (+2.5)
    Red Party: 7.5% (+1.5)
    Greens: 4.5% (+1.5)
    Christian Democratic Party: 4% (unc)
    Liberal Party: 3% (-1.5%)

    The current centre-right ruling block (Conservatives, Christian Democrats and Liberals) looks in real trouble with the latter two struglging to get past the 4% threshold to get into the Storting.

    A Red-Green Coalition which in Norwegian terms means Labour, Centre and the Socialist Left looks the obvious alternative (this was the governing coalition in the Stoltenberg era)

    The revival of Centre has been the big feature of recent Norwegian politics - the leader Trgve Vedum was Agriculture Minister in the last Stoltenberg Government but has breathed new life into what was a declining party - it's now heading for its best result since 1993 when it got more seats than the Conservatives despite polling slightly fewer votes.

    I can’t make head nor tale of those pluses and minuses. Too many minuses. Is there some new party you’ve omitted?

    The Red (communist) party is actually up +5.1, rather than 1.5.
    Aha! Many thanks Nick.

    The Left (formerly Communist) party of Sweden seem to also be doing well. Hope I’m not forced into reciting the Little Red Book anytime soon.
    Thanks for the correction, Nick. I was following the Europe Elects map which showed the Red Party at 6%.

    Others are also doing well up 3.5% to 5% so I think between the two that balances the positives and the negatives (more or less).

    As a note on the latest German poll, the Free Voters (Freie Wahler) are at their all-time high in national polls of 3.5%. It seems inconceivable they could break into the Bundestag but who knows? You'd think they'd be more likely to support a Union-led Government than a SPD-Green Government but again who knows?

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hugely excited to be able to announce my brand new show on @GBNews!

    Congratulations, Francis!
    LOL, They couldn't afford me.
    Perhaps not.
    But I’d watch at least one episode.
    We should pull together a PB a show for GB news.

    TSE - fashion tips
    Max - latest vaccine news
    Malmesbury - latest plague numbers
    Justin - random historical parallels
    Hyufd - polls and whatever the fuck CCO have said today
    CHB - rebuttal from Labour
    MalcolmG - to give the view from Scotland, which is that they hate everyone
    Eek and JJessop on computer coding
    Driving with Dura Ace
    And finally a stand up section with some awesome puns from me.
    Pinging Cyclefree to wonder why its an all male lineup.
    A betting section is notable by its absence
    How are you feeling about our £300/£100 Starmer bet now? Still like it?
    What was it again? He wont be PM after the next GE?
    If you can't remember a bet why the fuck are we doing it?

    Shape up. :smile:
    Wasn't it that?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hugely excited to be able to announce my brand new show on @GBNews!

    Congratulations, Francis!
    LOL, They couldn't afford me.
    Perhaps not.
    But I’d watch at least one episode.
    We should pull together a PB a show for GB news.

    TSE - fashion tips
    Max - latest vaccine news
    Malmesbury - latest plague numbers
    Justin - random historical parallels
    Hyufd - polls and whatever the fuck CCO have said today
    CHB - rebuttal from Labour
    MalcolmG - to give the view from Scotland, which is that they hate everyone
    Eek and JJessop on computer coding
    Driving with Dura Ace
    And finally a stand up section with some awesome puns from me.
    Pinging Cyclefree to wonder why its an all male lineup.
    A betting section is notable by its absence
    How are you feeling about our £300/£100 Starmer bet now? Still like it?
    What was it again? He wont be PM after the next GE?
    If you can't remember a bet why the fuck are we doing it?

    Shape up. :smile:
    Wasn't it that?
    That's the one.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,260
    tlg86 said:

    On F1:

    Aston Martin's first appeal against Seb Vettel's disqualification from the Hungarian GP has been thrown out. Since it seemed to consist of: "Yes, FIA, you're right, we didn't have enough fuel in the tank at the end of the race. But we had a leak and lost some. Our calculations show we should have had enough..." , it is probably to be expected.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/58152978

    I'm not Vettel's biggest fan, but it's a shame he got dq'ed after such an exciting race. But the rules are the rules ...

    It was an odd thing to happen considering they spent the race behind another car.
    Not really - the two at the front were racing flat out throughout.
    Which is not what the teams would have planned pre-race, so he’d have been on marginal fuel.

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992
    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The head of the Road Haulage Association tells Sky News he can see problems with refuse collection adding to the deteriorating consequences of the UK's HGV driver shortage https://trib.al/FWDLwnD

    I think that's already happening, there have been a few weeks where it's not been collected on the right day round here recently

    Popped into Tesco's in Cranham today on my #emptyshelfwatch - full to the brim.

    Maybe the dustmen are driving the Supermarket lorries in RM14!

    Tesco's at East Ham - very little milk and low supplies of bottled water but everything else looked well stocked as far as I could see.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,260
    Jeez.

    Big day tomorrow here in Poland. The parliament will vote on whether the one remaining independent television news station is allowed to remain on the air. If the government wins - they are begging, bribing MPs right now - Poland can no longer be considered a democracy.
    https://twitter.com/anneapplebaum/status/1425155078567116814
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hugely excited to be able to announce my brand new show on @GBNews!

    Congratulations, Francis!
    LOL, They couldn't afford me.
    Perhaps not.
    But I’d watch at least one episode.
    We should pull together a PB a show for GB news.

    TSE - fashion tips
    Max - latest vaccine news
    Malmesbury - latest plague numbers
    Justin - random historical parallels
    Hyufd - polls and whatever the fuck CCO have said today
    CHB - rebuttal from Labour
    MalcolmG - to give the view from Scotland, which is that they hate everyone
    Eek and JJessop on computer coding
    Driving with Dura Ace
    And finally a stand up section with some awesome puns from me.
    Pinging Cyclefree to wonder why its an all male lineup.
    A betting section is notable by its absence
    How are you feeling about our £300/£100 Starmer bet now? Still like it?
    What was it again? He wont be PM after the next GE?
    If you can't remember a bet why the fuck are we doing it?

    Shape up. :smile:
    Wasn't it that?
    That's the one.
    The polls are closer than when we had the bet, so I guess not as happy as I was then
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    I see we are back to anecdotal stories about I know somebody who got it despite been jabbed etc etc etc.

    Not to downplay that unfortunately people will get it, some will get it bad, but we don't do this for any other disease. We all know somebody who got cancer, had a terrible heart attack etc etc etc, with doctors saying they had a lucky escape there, and we don't then run into the fall out shelter.

    Humans are terrible at assessing risk and fixate on the horror stories e.g. why people are shit scared of shark attacks, despite you having basically no risk of actually suffering on, in comparison to getting in their car every day (and many being very naughty and driving at speed).

    What we need to see is the latest data on how the vaccines are holding up. The last time it all looked bang in line with the initial PHE estimates with well into the 90% reduction in hospitalization, and nothing like the initial scare data from Israel. The US is also looking good at the moment in terms of among the vaccinated.

    The data isn’t being released transparently or promptly, so all we have are anecdotes and second hand stories. I’ve got another second hand story for you from someone tangentially involved. That anyone still arguing boosters are not necessary for the whole country is now seen as the stupid person in the room.

    Ive got another one @Leon will like too, direct from someone else on one of the UK government committees. That it is now taken as a given behind closed doors that the virus originated in the Wuhan lab. For those that like to bet on US presidential elections, that seems pertinent I would have thought.
    Yes, this is what i hear

    It is now generally accepted by western intel that it came from the Wuhan labs. It is also accepted that it was quite possibly engineered to be more virulent

    Whether it was actually a bio-weapon in the making is the last question
    I'm hearing differently. That the lab theory is fading amongst serious analysts. Looking like a 20% shot max. Not low enough - yet - to resume mocking but that's the direction of travel.
    The circumstantial evidence is so overwhelming, I’m not sure how it could be fading as a theory without a smoking gun of zoonotic to human transmission. Which still hasn’t been found no matter how hard China looks.

    What you may be hearing, is that Western intelligence is about to undertake a whitewash of the incident. That’s conceivable. Partly because of US complicity, and partly because neither Biden nor Johnson has the stomach for open confrontation with the Chinese.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    Really interesting thread from Mike.

    It in fact makes me a little more circumspect about Rishi's chances. I'm not sure having such a London-centric base is a good thing for him. After all isn't that the problem that has beset recent Labour leaders?

    Nigel Farage wrote a very interesting piece today, Telegraph iirc, saying what a huge error Boris Johnson has made on the coal mines. I think he's write.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    Bad day for "Andrew" !
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    Meanwhile I continue to be concerned about the situation. Obviously not just me either. I think we're right on the knife-edge of losing this battle to Delta, which is what has been said by others today in a better place than me to comment.

    Does it really matter if herd immunity is a myth and Delta goes through the whole population? Today's death rate suggests that a lot more people would die.

    I just hope these pessimistic scenarios are misplaced but I'm more concerned now than at almost anytime.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    stodge said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The head of the Road Haulage Association tells Sky News he can see problems with refuse collection adding to the deteriorating consequences of the UK's HGV driver shortage https://trib.al/FWDLwnD

    I think that's already happening, there have been a few weeks where it's not been collected on the right day round here recently

    Popped into Tesco's in Cranham today on my #emptyshelfwatch - full to the brim.

    Maybe the dustmen are driving the Supermarket lorries in RM14!

    Tesco's at East Ham - very little milk and low supplies of bottled water but everything else looked well stocked as far as I could see.
    Bottled water seems to be the big one - We get a Tesco delivery and its been missing quite a lot recently, plus the twitter photos are often of the water section
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,165
    Pulpstar said:

    Bad day for "Andrew" !

    Andrews..
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,260
    moonshine said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    I see we are back to anecdotal stories about I know somebody who got it despite been jabbed etc etc etc.

    Not to downplay that unfortunately people will get it, some will get it bad, but we don't do this for any other disease. We all know somebody who got cancer, had a terrible heart attack etc etc etc, with doctors saying they had a lucky escape there, and we don't then run into the fall out shelter.

    Humans are terrible at assessing risk and fixate on the horror stories e.g. why people are shit scared of shark attacks, despite you having basically no risk of actually suffering on, in comparison to getting in their car every day (and many being very naughty and driving at speed).

    What we need to see is the latest data on how the vaccines are holding up. The last time it all looked bang in line with the initial PHE estimates with well into the 90% reduction in hospitalization, and nothing like the initial scare data from Israel. The US is also looking good at the moment in terms of among the vaccinated.

    The data isn’t being released transparently or promptly, so all we have are anecdotes and second hand stories. I’ve got another second hand story for you from someone tangentially involved. That anyone still arguing boosters are not necessary for the whole country is now seen as the stupid person in the room.

    Ive got another one @Leon will like too, direct from someone else on one of the UK government committees. That it is now taken as a given behind closed doors that the virus originated in the Wuhan lab. For those that like to bet on US presidential elections, that seems pertinent I would have thought.
    Yes, this is what i hear

    It is now generally accepted by western intel that it came from the Wuhan labs. It is also accepted that it was quite possibly engineered to be more virulent

    Whether it was actually a bio-weapon in the making is the last question
    I'm hearing differently. That the lab theory is fading amongst serious analysts. Looking like a 20% shot max. Not low enough - yet - to resume mocking but that's the direction of travel.
    The circumstantial evidence is so overwhelming…
    No, it’s not.
    I can’t really try to rebut your claim in detail, since you’d have to lay out just what that ‘overwhelming’ evidence consists of, but I’ve not seen anything that merits that description.
  • stodge said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The head of the Road Haulage Association tells Sky News he can see problems with refuse collection adding to the deteriorating consequences of the UK's HGV driver shortage https://trib.al/FWDLwnD

    I think that's already happening, there have been a few weeks where it's not been collected on the right day round here recently

    Popped into Tesco's in Cranham today on my #emptyshelfwatch - full to the brim.

    Maybe the dustmen are driving the Supermarket lorries in RM14!

    Tesco's at East Ham - very little milk and low supplies of bottled water but everything else looked well stocked as far as I could see.
    Sainsbury's around midday – Coke, bottled water and olive oil on the critical list, along with some sorts of cat food and toilet paper. Bins emptied on time. Though having said that, the cardboard recycling bins have been overflowing for weeks – the rise in Amazon packaging probably not helping here. On which note, I've just been shown an advert for jobs at Amazon's Tilbury depot.
  • isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The head of the Road Haulage Association tells Sky News he can see problems with refuse collection adding to the deteriorating consequences of the UK's HGV driver shortage https://trib.al/FWDLwnD

    I think that's already happening, there have been a few weeks where it's not been collected on the right day round here recently

    Popped into Tesco's in Cranham today on my #emptyshelfwatch - full to the brim.

    Maybe the dustmen are driving the Supermarket lorries in RM14!

    Tesco's at East Ham - very little milk and low supplies of bottled water but everything else looked well stocked as far as I could see.
    Bottled water seems to be the big one - We get a Tesco delivery and its been missing quite a lot recently, plus the twitter photos are often of the water section
    Any idea what's causing the bottled water shortage? Brexit problems with Evian? Sindy problems with Highland Spring?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,685
    Heathener said:

    Meanwhile I continue to be concerned about the situation. Obviously not just me either. I think we're right on the knife-edge of losing this battle to Delta, which is what has been said by others today in a better place than me to comment.

    Does it really matter if herd immunity is a myth and Delta goes through the whole population? Today's death rate suggests that a lot more people would die.

    I just hope these pessimistic scenarios are misplaced but I'm more concerned now than at almost anytime.

    I keep saying this - what do you mean ‘losing the battle to delta’? Cases are no longer the issue, only hospitals and deaths. Do you know what percentage of deaths are currently from Covid? You may be surprised. We are also running below the 5 year average death rate. Take heart.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The head of the Road Haulage Association tells Sky News he can see problems with refuse collection adding to the deteriorating consequences of the UK's HGV driver shortage https://trib.al/FWDLwnD

    I think that's already happening, there have been a few weeks where it's not been collected on the right day round here recently

    Popped into Tesco's in Cranham today on my #emptyshelfwatch - full to the brim.

    Maybe the dustmen are driving the Supermarket lorries in RM14!

    Tesco's at East Ham - very little milk and low supplies of bottled water but everything else looked well stocked as far as I could see.
    Sainsbury's around midday – Coke, bottled water and olive oil on the critical list, along with some sorts of cat food and toilet paper. Bins emptied on time. Though having said that, the cardboard recycling bins have been overflowing for weeks – the rise in Amazon packaging probably not helping here. On which note, I've just been shown an advert for jobs at Amazon's Tilbury depot.
    Apparently that is transforming Tilbury. Needed!

    My Dad used to play for, then manage, Tilbury FC, and played in the 3rd Rd of the FA Cup for them in the late 70s
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited August 2021


    Aha! Many thanks Nick.

    The Left (formerly Communist) party of Sweden seem to also be doing well. Hope I’m not forced into reciting the Little Red Book anytime soon.

    lol - yes, up from 8 to 13. You should be OK, unless they've changed? - when I lived in Denmark I was a big fan of C.H. Hermansson, who together with Berlinguer in Italy defined the whole idea of democratic Eurocommunism and transformed the Swedish party - IIRC he had a political outlook roughly like Ed Miliband with an agreeably quiet manner. Len McCluskey would have thought him a total wimp.

    Politeness goes a long way with me.
    I quite like the Left Party. I’d never vote for them, but I suspect a lot of people I respect and admire probably do. Their economic policies are mad, but they are usually not far off the mark in their instincts on social issues. Little Red Book they are not. Nor shouty. They are very calm and reasonable. Bloody Swedes.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223
    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/aug/10/private-schools-in-england-give-pupils-top-grades-in-70-of-a-level-entries

    The gender gap also reached its highest level in 10 years, with the rate of A* and As standing at 46.4% for girls versus 41.7% for boys – a further reversal of the trend seen in 2017 and 2018, when boys last outperformed girls in exams.

    In maths, female pupils overtook their male peers for the first time in the proportion of A*s as the gap overall widened across all subjects other than Spanish and German.


    I’m shocked that girly swots benefitted most from the lack of exams.

    (I identify as a girly swot)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    moonshine said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cases up again. We are losing.

    What would you propose? Lockdown 4? If vaccines aren't enough then what's the solution?
    It’s pretty clear that vaccines give about 6 months worth of protection from catching it, but hopefully much longer lasting protection from getting seriously ill. That might be why cases have hit a stubborn plateau. I also know several people testing positive for the second time now.

    If we are giving up on stopping cases, what’s most important of course is the ratio of hospitalisations to cases. This is happily far lower than where we are. But… there is a but.

    Gone are the days when we could say double vaxxed people aren’t going to hospital. They are. I have an acquaintance who just spent a week on O2 despite being double vaxxed, one of the cohort done early in the year.

    The vaccines probably saved his life but it was still a fairly close run thing. I imagine what we’ll see is the hospitalisations / cases ratios creep up a bit, and there will be an inevitable increase in cases with back to school/Uni/the office.

    Probably and hopefully not sufficiently badly to require another “lockdown”. But I’ve little doubt that the return to the office orders will be overturned within weeks, and schools will up creek again.

    Until the booster programme then gets ahead of it again. Come next winter hopefully they’ll be ahead of things a bit more than this one.
    Don't forget that the booster programme is going to be primarily Pfizer which is much faster acting than AZ (about 10 days vs 25 days to reach maximum efficacy) so people who got their second doses in Feb/March will all start getting their third doses and renewed immunity by the end of September. By the end of November all of groups 1-9 should have got their third dose should they want one.
    Next year’s boosters will presumably be tweaked and tested in time against delta (and whatever else), which if there’s not too much genetic drift will crush cases. This year that’s obviously not the case. And until we get boosters into the over 40s, things might be sticky.

    Rishi’s Great Back To The Office coercion attempts are quite clearly coming months too early, perhaps 6 months in fact. And it’s going to increase the chances of other restrictions being introduced. I am beginning to think the chancellor wears no clothes.
    The whole “Get Back to the Office” stuff is because they see the revenues from railways and city-based hospitality declining - but don’t understand that the commute is what people most hate about their job.

    Most of the politicians, of course, live right in the middle of London, a few minutes from anywhere, and are not on the 06:42 from Basingstoke or Swindon five days a week.
    Railways and city-based hospitality are there to serve the public.

    The public is not there to serve railways and city-based hospitality.

    If the railways aren't as busy any more going forwards then we should be looking at how to cut funding to the railways and redirect it to elsewhere instead - not trying to force people back onto the railways against their wishes.
    Railways are there to serve shareholders, that is what private business entails.
    The railways model in England has been transformed into one where the operators are almost like utility companies, in their tediousness to manage or externally evaluate. Their only real USP in tendering now will be their track record on timely and clean services, and the efficiency of their opex.

    All of the revenue risk has already been assumed by the taxpayer, initially by emergency covid measures. As we speak, that arrangement is being legally formalised for operators into the medium term, who are currently bidding for the concession contracts on a preferred / sole bidder basis. Massive tax payer funded bail out for largely foreign owned operators basically, and they’re still free to pay dividends in the mean time. So if that is what you mean by “there to serve the shareholders”, yes. But it’s being done without any of risk that private business normally entails.
    Nationalise the railways and run them properly for the needs of the public. Some things work privately owned and other don't. That's not ideological, it's logical
    The best route forward is probably going to be concession agreements, rather than franchises or public operators.

    This has most of the benefits of private operation, and most of the benefits of public ownership.

    (This post is totally unrelated to the extensive work I’m currently doing on concession agreements. For utilities, rather than railways, but the same principals apply.)
    Genuine question, in such a model how does the operation honestly differ between a state concession vs one by the German Government company. What do the Germans offer?
    The Germans are running it professionally and not politically.

    Almost every single argument made by those who want the state to interfere, is precisely why the British state should not.
    Jesus Christ, have you ever been on a German state company provided train in this country?
    I only take trains once every few years.
    And yet you feel you have the knowledge to talk to somebody who uses them mostly every day. You really do talk out of your rear
    One of the thing that amuses me about conversations about the railways is that, eventually, it comes down to "I'm a passenger! I know how to run the railway!"

    It leads to such hilarity as the unions / Labour producing long and worthy documents about how they would change the system, that only mentions railfreight once. Because railfreight is evidently unimpotant.

    The railways are a massively complex system, and the idea that you, as a regular passenger, automatically know how it should be run or structured is slightly odd.

    I go to the supermarket regularly. I don't pretend to fully understand their logistics chains, or how to improve it.
    I remember British Railways and nobody should want to go back to those days
    1980s-era BR was actually quite efficient. But it was also managing a shrinking system, something that's much easier to do than managing an expanding system. You are rationalising and cutting, rather than building. It was also - with a couple of exceptions - not customer focussed.

    The pre-Covid expansion in passenger numbers after privatisation would have seemed like an impossible dream in the mid-1980s. Likewise safety (yes, really). The only disappointment is that railfreight didn't pick up to the same degree - and that was partly because of the death of loadhaul coal.
    I used British Railways most every working day between 1960 and 1963 and it was terrible
    With respect Big_G, lots of things were terrible 60 years ago. Look at the (then privately run) British Car industry in the early 60s.
    The Tory government who had then been nominally in charge of British Railways for 10+ years must have been really terrible!
    Did you experience BR 60 years ago
    I did, steam trains were brilliant
    Dirty, smelly, noisy, inefficient, and they pumped out lots of carbon into the atmosphere.
    Not that dirty, smell amazing, sound terrific and emitted a really rather moderate amount of carbon into the atmosphere, really. Full of romance too.

    I'll grant you they were inefficient though - you don't get much traction power from a steam loco next to a modern electric, and they cost less unit for unit, their maintenance costs are far less, and can be operated with far fewer men.
  • isam said:

    stodge said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The head of the Road Haulage Association tells Sky News he can see problems with refuse collection adding to the deteriorating consequences of the UK's HGV driver shortage https://trib.al/FWDLwnD

    I think that's already happening, there have been a few weeks where it's not been collected on the right day round here recently

    Popped into Tesco's in Cranham today on my #emptyshelfwatch - full to the brim.

    Maybe the dustmen are driving the Supermarket lorries in RM14!

    Tesco's at East Ham - very little milk and low supplies of bottled water but everything else looked well stocked as far as I could see.
    Bottled water seems to be the big one - We get a Tesco delivery and its been missing quite a lot recently, plus the twitter photos are often of the water section
    Any idea what's causing the bottled water shortage? Brexit problems with Evian? Sindy problems with Highland Spring?
    A mixture of Covid-19 and Brexit is responsible for a lack of (recycled) bottles and assorted polymers.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,655
    Charles said:

    I see we are back to anecdotal stories about I know somebody who got it despite been jabbed etc etc etc.

    Not to downplay that unfortunately people will get it, some will get it bad, but we don't do this for any other disease. We all know somebody who got cancer, had a terrible heart attack etc etc etc, with doctors saying they had a lucky escape there, and we don't then run into the fall out shelter.

    Humans are terrible at assessing risk and fixate on the horror stories e.g. why people are shit scared of shark attacks, despite you having basically no risk of actually suffering on, in comparison to getting in their car every day (and many being very naughty and driving at speed).

    What we need to see is the latest data on how the vaccines are holding up. The last time it all looked bang in line with the initial PHE estimates with well into the 90% reduction in hospitalization, and nothing like the initial scare data from Israel. The US is also looking good at the moment in terms of among the vaccinated.

    There was data that I saw yesterday that had Moderna still at 76% vs Delta. Not clear whether that is a delta effect vs passage of time. Both still very good vs. hospitalisation which is what actually matters, not cases.

    The mRNA vaccine from Pfizer and BioNTech may be less effective than Moderna's against the Delta variant of the coronavirus, according to two reports posted on medRxiv on Sunday ahead of peer review. In a study of more than 50,000 patients in the Mayo Clinic Health System https://bit.ly/37Btmhf, researchers found the effectiveness of Moderna's vaccine against infection had dropped to 76% in July - when the Delta variant was predominant - from 86% in early 2021. Over the same period, the effectiveness of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine had fallen to 42% from 76%, researchers said. While both vaccines remain effective at preventing COVID hospitalization, a Moderna booster shot may be necessary soon for anyone who got the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines earlier this year, said Dr. Venky Soundararajan of Massachusetts data analytics company nference, who led the Mayo study.

    https://news.yahoo.com/moderna-may-superior-pfizer-against-204309306.html

    My totally unscientific guess is that the most effective booster will be one of a different type to your initial vaccination - so AZ for people who got Moderna/Pfizer, and vice-versa. Or Novavax for all.
This discussion has been closed.