Absent any benefits of Brexit, the new Brexit consensus is that Remainers immorally enriched themselves on the sweat of immigrants living in slum like conditions.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
In which universe do you live? We left as a result of a narrow majority, on a 72% poll, as opposed to a 2-1 majority, admittedly on a lower turnout (65%) when we confirmed membership. What is more, in 1975 information to the public was much more clearly set out. apart from the somewhat hazy idea of 'leaving'
Remainers like me have every right to try and get the situation reversed. And I didn't get 'sent' to a nice school, I didn't have my way to Uni 'padded', and my living standards didn't depend on cheap labour.
72% is a huge turnout. And as much as Remainers obsess about the "merely" million odd vote margin, that is with the "don't rock the boat" types on your side, which is now flipped. You barely get a third of the vote on Rejoin polls. And that will increase over time as we drift away to the rest of the world economically. The electoral distribution is even more devastating for Rejoiners. Neither party is going to abandon its chance to form a government to argue for a new referendum. And if they did it would be Boris thumping majority time again.
You have been completely defeated. You won't get a reversal. The sooner you come to grips with this, the better you will be.
To be fair, Old King Cole is one of the much saner PB Remainers. There are plenty of them on here. Indeed I'd say most of them - at least when sober - are now reconciled to Brexit. Like the rest of the country. This can only be for the best.
We had the vote. It was Leave and it was the biggest vote in our history. Thank God we honoured it, in the best traditions of British democracy, anything else would have been unthinkable - and dangerous.
Time to move on.
You don't want to though do you?
Actually, I really really do. Not because I think Brexit is some terrible error and I am embarrassed (it takes a lot more than that to embarrass me, trust me), but because endless division and rancour over something already done, and not about to be reversed this decade, or the next, is pointless, boring and damaging.
All we do is rehearse the same tedious arguments, then Scott XP goes mad and compares Boris to Goebbels, and then we stop, and then a day or two later we start over again. Whatever.
I will make one admission, sometimes I DO invoke Brexit when I am bored - I mention it solely to annoy people like Scott and you and the other PB Remoaners, in the same way a small boy likes tormenting a mad ape at a zoo with a peashooter - you always react so insanely it is hilarious
But it is juvenile of me. I shall try and desist
You don't annoy me Leon, I find it funny. Why do you think I take the piss? The whole Brexit mindset is one to take the piss out of. It IS funny. It is so parochial and silly, and you know it.
Can I write a header comparing Boris to D'Annunzio? - the whole Goebbels/Hitler/Trump thing is getting so stale....
I don't think Mr Johnson flew combat missions over Baghdad or even Brussels.
In his mind he has. And that is the same thing.
Though the nearest he seems to have got to poetry was rbeginning to recite Kipling somewhere rather tactless, as far as I know.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
Boris Johnson continues to lead over Keir Starmer as being the one who best embodies the following descriptions: ‘can build a strong economy’ (44% to 28%), ‘stands up for the interests of the United Kingdom’ (43% to 28%), ‘knows how to get things done’ (42% to 27%), and ‘can tackle the coronavirus pandemic’ (42% to 26%).
Keir Starmer continues to lead only when it comes to best embodying the description of ‘being in good physical and mental health’ (36% to 29%).
Am I reading this correctly that Boris is 26% on telling the truth to Starmer on only 27%, just 1% difference
That needs some explanation by all those accusing Boris of being economical with the truth
The other surprises for a Labour leader are statistical ties for "Cares about people like me" "Willing to work with other parties" and "Represents change".
Just goes to show how divorced from the real world Twitter is.....
Absent any benefits of Brexit, the new Brexit consensus is that Remainers immorally enriched themselves on the sweat of immigrants living in slum like conditions.
It’s total bullshit.
But - it allows Brexiters to sleep at night.
That's an interesting perception, given how the Brexity big farmers and the big trawler owners benefited from exactly such immigrants as a cheap labour force.
So much for crossover, or whatever it is called these days.
The reports of the demise of the Boris bounce may have been premature...again...and again....and again...
Loving the fact that, as a resident of España, you should have liked a post by Max wherein he said how much he loathed the EU.
Every day must be hell for you. My commiserations.
Au contraire! I love my life in EU Spain. I voted Remain. However, I'm an odd character - I believe in respecting a democratic vote. Admittedly I might not vote remain today after the way the EU commission and some EU leaders behaved over vaccines. However, Spain does moderately well out of the EU for the moment. When you talk to locals, as I do, the Spanish where I live have no great fondness for Seville/Madrid/Brussels - much of the largesse when it arrives seems to find its way into those whose pockets are already quite well-lined. Such is life. The problem so many people like you have is you really do not understand the mindset of those with a different view. So snide remarks and stereotypes help you bear up under the strain. My thoughts are as much with you as yours with mine.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Satisfaction with EU membership has risen as people have looked on with horror at British self-sabotage.
Perhaps, but I am going to bet it is nowhere near 450M, which would be over 100% of the population (including infants).
But nobody really claimed that, did they. I took his point to be that there are simply no significant anti-EU movements in the member countries.
Yes, he really claimed that
"Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership"
Just a lie. But then, that's what Remainers do. Lie
Now we know, that you know, you are losing the argument. Please try harder @Leon, you are better than that.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Satisfaction with EU membership has risen as people have looked on with horror at British self-sabotage.
Perhaps, but I am going to bet it is nowhere near 450M, which would be over 100% of the population (including infants).
But nobody really claimed that, did they. I took his point to be that there are simply no significant anti-EU movements in the member countries.
That is essentially what I meant and actually what I should have said.
I would elaborate, based on my knowledge of the rest of Europe (comparatively narrow as that is) that unhappiness with the EU tends to be directed towards public policy forums (of which there are many) and genuine attempts to improve the project. In the UK it was weaponised to sell papers and achieve tax benefits for the already very rich.
But you didn't say that did you?
Instead you sat down and thought, I know what, I will tell a big fat lie. And you did. And you got immediately caught out, because this is PB
And now you claim that "you essentially meant something completely different to what I said"
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Satisfaction with EU membership has risen as people have looked on with horror at British self-sabotage.
You do need to take that with a massive pinch of salt. Brexit came along at a convenient time for the EU because it gave them a common enemy and the dynamics of the negotiations while Brexit was a theoretical construct lent themselves to making fun of the Brits, but this doesn't reflect the reality now that we are outside the institutions.
I don’t take it with a pinch of salt. It’s a simple truth, support for the EU rise because of Brexit.
This says nothing about the merit of the EU, it’s just a polling fact.
You attributed it to people "looking on with horror at British self-sabotage", but if that's the reason then it's very fragile because at some point people will notice that we're still standing, and perhaps even start taking an interest in our sporrans and our tabards, and wondering what our secret is.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Satisfaction with EU membership has risen as people have looked on with horror at British self-sabotage.
Perhaps, but I am going to bet it is nowhere near 450M, which would be over 100% of the population (including infants).
But nobody really claimed that, did they. I took his point to be that there are simply no significant anti-EU movements in the member countries.
That is essentially what I meant and actually what I should have said.
I would elaborate, based on my knowledge of the rest of Europe (comparatively narrow as that is) that unhappiness with the EU tends to be directed towards public policy forums (of which there are many) and genuine attempts to improve the project. In the UK it was weaponised to sell papers and achieve tax benefits for the already very rich.
But you didn't say that did you?
Instead you sat down and thought, I know what, I will tell a big fat lie. And you did. And you got immediately caught out, because this is PB
And now you claim that "you essentially meant something completely different to what I said"
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
Well, I guess if upsetting remainers was a core aim, then it has indeed been a pretty resounding success!
I was a remainer. I have moved on. I wish Brexiters would. Imagine if they had lost, the sulking would have been unprecedented.
It seems odd on the face of it, now Brexit is done, quite a hard one too, total victory thus achieved, that many Leavers seem to still need the fight. But it isn't odd really. When you look at their post match analysis, so much of it picks out the humbling of this Construct they call the "Remainer Class" (que?) as being the beauty of it and pretty much the point of it all. In which case you want to keep pissing on these people, don't you. These Remainer Class types. Whoever they are.
It is a bit sad really. Some I guess, @Leon, for example, are trying to convince themselves it was a good idea, when their head tells them it was pointless; others are terrified that one day those ingrates known as "the Young" will stuff it all up and agitate to re-join.
Those leavers currently in their 40s or 50s have this nightmare vision that one grey and dull morning in their dreary old age (when it is more normal to have reactionary views and wear monocles), they will read their Daily Express (tablet version) and realise that we have joined the European United States of Europe. Full fat everything, with a Davros-like Ursula von der Leyen as President For Life.
That is why they are so angry, even though they "won". Either that or they are just miserable gits.
What troubles me is that I think you actually believe this shite
May I suggest somebody who has spent much of the last five months wittering about alien contacts is not in a strong position to make that remark?
Interestingly, my lunch partner told me from some very well connected friends of his, that higher US government intel/military concerns over UAPs are quite real.
Is that why your lunch partner has had his Bentley reinforced (if I remember correctly from this morning)?
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
Absolute drivel.
And yet out of the EU wage inflation at the bottom of the market has gone insane.
There’s a global labour shortage (I mean in the West), although likely worse here because of Brexit.
One thing we surely all know, on all political sides in this country, is that open letters published on Twitter are not how opposing politicians propose in good faith to organise meetings. They are how they score points.....
This is fairly clearly a very basic manoeuvre designed to deliver a "Johnson snubs Sturgeon" headline in one or more of the persuadable newspapers. Grist to the mill.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Satisfaction with EU membership has risen as people have looked on with horror at British self-sabotage.
Perhaps, but I am going to bet it is nowhere near 450M, which would be over 100% of the population (including infants).
But nobody really claimed that, did they. I took his point to be that there are simply no significant anti-EU movements in the member countries.
That is essentially what I meant and actually what I should have said.
I would elaborate, based on my knowledge of the rest of Europe (comparatively narrow as that is) that unhappiness with the EU tends to be directed towards public policy forums (of which there are many) and genuine attempts to improve the project. In the UK it was weaponised to sell papers and achieve tax benefits for the already very rich.
But you didn't say that did you?
Instead you sat down and thought, I know what, I will tell a big fat lie. And you did. And you got immediately caught out, because this is PB
And now you claim that "you essentially meant something completely different to what I said"
Keir Starmer’s net approval rating stands remains at -15%, the same result as last week’s lowest net approval rating to date for Starmer. 40% disapprove of Keir Starmer’s job performance (no change), while 25% approve (no change). Meanwhile, 31% neither approve nor disapprove of Starmer’s job performance (up 2%).
Boris Johnson continues to lead over Keir Starmer as being the one who best embodies the following descriptions: ‘can build a strong economy’ (44% to 28%), ‘stands up for the interests of the United Kingdom’ (43% to 28%), ‘knows how to get things done’ (42% to 27%), and ‘can tackle the coronavirus pandemic’ (42% to 26%).
Keir Starmer continues to lead only when it comes to best embodying the description of ‘being in good physical and mental health’ (36% to 29%).
This survey is at the same time astonishing and drearily predictable. The UK national interest is whatever you think it is, so OK if Johnson supporters believe he stands for the national interest. But the other stuff people give him credit for is demonstrably false:
Can work with foreign leaders
Gets things done
Brings the country together
Can tackle the coronavirus epidemic
And while there is obviously an epidemic going on the UK has been underperforming its peers economically too.
Boris Johnson continues to lead over Keir Starmer as being the one who best embodies the following descriptions: ‘can build a strong economy’ (44% to 28%), ‘stands up for the interests of the United Kingdom’ (43% to 28%), ‘knows how to get things done’ (42% to 27%), and ‘can tackle the coronavirus pandemic’ (42% to 26%).
Keir Starmer continues to lead only when it comes to best embodying the description of ‘being in good physical and mental health’ (36% to 29%).
Am I reading this correctly that Boris is 26% on telling the truth to Starmer on only 27%, just 1% difference
That needs some explanation by all those accusing Boris of being economical with the truth
The other surprises for a Labour leader are statistical ties for "Cares about people like me" "Willing to work with other parties" and "Represents change".
Just goes to show how divorced from the real world Twitter is.....
Or simply that many people (far from all) answer specific questions with answers that relate to how much they like and/or support the politicians concerned in general instead of giving the specific answer requested.
Absent any benefits of Brexit, the new Brexit consensus is that Remainers immorally enriched themselves on the sweat of immigrants living in slum like conditions.
Boris Johnson continues to lead over Keir Starmer as being the one who best embodies the following descriptions: ‘can build a strong economy’ (44% to 28%), ‘stands up for the interests of the United Kingdom’ (43% to 28%), ‘knows how to get things done’ (42% to 27%), and ‘can tackle the coronavirus pandemic’ (42% to 26%).
Keir Starmer continues to lead only when it comes to best embodying the description of ‘being in good physical and mental health’ (36% to 29%).
Am I reading this correctly that Boris is 26% on telling the truth to Starmer on only 27%, just 1% difference
That needs some explanation by all those accusing Boris of being economical with the truth
There are three types of people in this country at the moment. 1) people who believe everything Boris Johnson says is the truth 2) people who believe everything Boris Johnson says is a lie 3) the rest of us who don't really care (they're all politicians anyway).
Though comedic, I don't really agree with that. No politician tells the whole truth all the time (even if direct lying is, thankfully, still unusual enough to draw comment), but whether they do or not, or only do so some of the time, what they say really matters when they have power over every one of us.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
Absolute drivel.
And yet out of the EU wage inflation at the bottom of the market has gone insane.
There’s a global labour shortage (I mean in the West), although likely worse here because of Brexit.
Check out the US data.
Not in all sectors of the labour market.
There is a persistent shortage of the highly educated - which is down to higher demand than the capacity to train them (universities) world wide.
Boris Johnson continues to lead over Keir Starmer as being the one who best embodies the following descriptions: ‘can build a strong economy’ (44% to 28%), ‘stands up for the interests of the United Kingdom’ (43% to 28%), ‘knows how to get things done’ (42% to 27%), and ‘can tackle the coronavirus pandemic’ (42% to 26%).
Keir Starmer continues to lead only when it comes to best embodying the description of ‘being in good physical and mental health’ (36% to 29%).
This survey is at the same time astonishing and drearily predictable. The UK national interest is whatever you think it is, so OK if Johnson supporters believe he stands for the national interest. But the other stuff people give him credit for is demonstrably false:
Can work with foreign leaders
Gets things done
Brings the country together
Can tackle the coronavirus epidemic
And while there is obviously an epidemic going on the UK has been underperforming its peers economically too.
How are they demonstrably false when it is a question about relative performance and not absolute?
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Satisfaction with EU membership has risen as people have looked on with horror at British self-sabotage.
Perhaps, but I am going to bet it is nowhere near 450M, which would be over 100% of the population (including infants).
But nobody really claimed that, did they. I took his point to be that there are simply no significant anti-EU movements in the member countries.
As noted by others they did really claim that. Which is weird, when as you demonstrate a similar but more reasonable point can easily be made, and probably was the point intended.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Satisfaction with EU membership has risen as people have looked on with horror at British self-sabotage.
Perhaps, but I am going to bet it is nowhere near 450M, which would be over 100% of the population (including infants).
But nobody really claimed that, did they. I took his point to be that there are simply no significant anti-EU movements in the member countries.
That is essentially what I meant and actually what I should have said.
I would elaborate, based on my knowledge of the rest of Europe (comparatively narrow as that is) that unhappiness with the EU tends to be directed towards public policy forums (of which there are many) and genuine attempts to improve the project. In the UK it was weaponised to sell papers and achieve tax benefits for the already very rich.
But you didn't say that did you?
Instead you sat down and thought, I know what, I will tell a big fat lie. And you did. And you got immediately caught out, because this is PB
And now you claim that "you essentially meant something completely different to what I said"
Brilliant. Not.
I would describe writing something in speech marks that someone did not actually write, as a "big fat lie", in fact.
I would also characterise fixating on a very small part of someone's post, which they have in good grace clarified and corrected, as a strong indication that that person has nothing to say about the rest of the actual post. Do leap in and correct me again though if you wish.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
In which universe do you live? We left as a result of a narrow majority, on a 72% poll, as opposed to a 2-1 majority, admittedly on a lower turnout (65%) when we confirmed membership. What is more, in 1975 information to the public was much more clearly set out. apart from the somewhat hazy idea of 'leaving'
Remainers like me have every right to try and get the situation reversed. And I didn't get 'sent' to a nice school, I didn't have my way to Uni 'padded', and my living standards didn't depend on cheap labour.
72% is a huge turnout. And as much as Remainers obsess about the "merely" million odd vote margin, that is with the "don't rock the boat" types on your side, which is now flipped. You barely get a third of the vote on Rejoin polls. And that will increase over time as we drift away to the rest of the world economically. The electoral distribution is even more devastating for Rejoiners. Neither party is going to abandon its chance to form a government to argue for a new referendum. And if they did it would be Boris thumping majority time again.
You have been completely defeated. You won't get a reversal. The sooner you come to grips with this, the better you will be.
To be fair, Old King Cole is one of the much saner PB Remainers. There are plenty of them on here. Indeed I'd say most of them - at least when sober - are now reconciled to Brexit. Like the rest of the country. This can only be for the best.
We had the vote. It was Leave and it was the biggest vote in our history. Thank God we honoured it, in the best traditions of British democracy, anything else would have been unthinkable - and dangerous.
Time to move on.
You don't want to though do you?
Actually, I really really do. Not because I think Brexit is some terrible error and I am embarrassed (it takes a lot more than that to embarrass me, trust me), but because endless division and rancour over something already done, and not about to be reversed this decade, or the next, is pointless, boring and damaging.
All we do is rehearse the same tedious arguments, then Scott XP goes mad and compares Boris to Goebbels, and then we stop, and then a day or two later we start over again. Whatever.
I will make one admission, sometimes I DO invoke Brexit when I am bored - I mention it solely to annoy people like Scott and you and the other PB Remoaners, in the same way a small boy likes tormenting a mad ape at a zoo with a peashooter - you always react so insanely it is hilarious
But it is juvenile of me. I shall try and desist
You don't annoy me Leon, I find it funny. Why do you think I take the piss? The whole Brexit mindset is one to take the piss out of. It IS funny. It is so parochial and silly, and you know it.
Can I write a header comparing Boris to D'Annunzio? - the whole Goebbels/Hitler/Trump thing is getting so stale....
I don't think Mr Johnson flew combat missions over Baghdad or even Brussels.
In his mind he has. And that is the same thing.
Though the nearest he seems to have got to poetry was rbeginning to recite Kipling somewhere rather tactless, as far as I know.
If that's as far as his diplomatic messes go - geographically inappropriate poety - then we can count ourselves very fortunate.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
Well, I guess if upsetting remainers was a core aim, then it has indeed been a pretty resounding success!
I was a remainer. I have moved on. I wish Brexiters would. Imagine if they had lost, the sulking would have been unprecedented.
It seems odd on the face of it, now Brexit is done, quite a hard one too, total victory thus achieved, that many Leavers seem to still need the fight. But it isn't odd really. When you look at their post match analysis, so much of it picks out the humbling of this Construct they call the "Remainer Class" (que?) as being the beauty of it and pretty much the point of it all. In which case you want to keep pissing on these people, don't you. These Remainer Class types. Whoever they are.
It is a bit sad really. Some I guess, @Leon, for example, are trying to convince themselves it was a good idea, when their head tells them it was pointless; others are terrified that one day those ingrates known as "the Young" will stuff it all up and agitate to re-join.
Those leavers currently in their 40s or 50s have this nightmare vision that one grey and dull morning in their dreary old age (when it is more normal to have reactionary views and wear monocles), they will read their Daily Express (tablet version) and realise that we have joined the European United States of Europe. Full fat everything, with a Davros-like Ursula von der Leyen as President For Life.
That is why they are so angry, even though they "won". Either that or they are just miserable gits.
What troubles me is that I think you actually believe this shite
May I suggest somebody who has spent much of the last five months wittering about alien contacts is not in a strong position to make that remark?
Interestingly, my lunch partner told me from some very well connected friends of his, that higher US government intel/military concerns over UAPs are quite real.
Is that why your lunch partner has had his Bentley reinforced (if I remember correctly from this morning)?
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
Absolute drivel.
And yet out of the EU wage inflation at the bottom of the market has gone insane.
There’s a global labour shortage (I mean in the West), although likely worse here because of Brexit.
Check out the US data.
So the labour market does adhere to basic economic principles of supply and demand? I mean I've read about a billion papers by liberal academics suggesting otherwise and saying that EU immigration had no impact on wages. Which is it? Is Brexit having an inflationary impact on wages or did EU immigration cause have deflationary effect on wages?
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Satisfaction with EU membership has risen as people have looked on with horror at British self-sabotage.
Perhaps, but I am going to bet it is nowhere near 450M, which would be over 100% of the population (including infants).
But nobody really claimed that, did they. I took his point to be that there are simply no significant anti-EU movements in the member countries.
As noted by others they did really claim that. Which is weird, when as you demonstrate a similar but more reasonable point can easily be made, and probably was the point intended.
A point for pedantry or against casual hyperbole?
As I typed I could imagine that the one point that would be picked up on would be that - laziness compelled me to leave it in and I paid a price. I stand by my subsequent research and good humoured correction in the face of just criticism. Leon on the other hand appears to have had a sense of humour bypass.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
It probably did benefit me more than most given that I live and work in London and have a well paid job. Low wage workers have always been a net benefit not low wage workers. All of those studies which removed the human element from the misery of low wage work and living in working poverty and simply said that EU immigration didn't impact wages of low wage workers were always bullshit. One of the major reasons I voted to leave was to give those people who espoused it a massive black eye and from this thread we can see that it's hurt them a lot.
Boris Johnson continues to lead over Keir Starmer as being the one who best embodies the following descriptions: ‘can build a strong economy’ (44% to 28%), ‘stands up for the interests of the United Kingdom’ (43% to 28%), ‘knows how to get things done’ (42% to 27%), and ‘can tackle the coronavirus pandemic’ (42% to 26%).
Keir Starmer continues to lead only when it comes to best embodying the description of ‘being in good physical and mental health’ (36% to 29%).
This survey is at the same time astonishing and drearily predictable. The UK national interest is whatever you think it is, so OK if Johnson supporters believe he stands for the national interest. But the other stuff people give him credit for is demonstrably false:
Can work with foreign leaders
Gets things done
Brings the country together
Can tackle the coronavirus epidemic
And while there is obviously an epidemic going on the UK has been underperforming its peers economically too.
How are they demonstrably false when it is a question about relative performance and not absolute?
The questions are, "do you agree with this statement for Boris Johnson/Kier Starmer?", so they are absolute.
There is a difference between Starmer and Johnson that the former has never had the chance to demonstrate his competence in these areas. Nevertheless Johnson does badly on all these things compared with his predecessors, except, for Covid, which is a one-off. But most of his predecessors would probably have done better on that too.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
Re the Groucho, this is another weird small upside to the plague. I've not been to the Groucho for a year and a half, basically (a couple of very boozy visits last summer are too blurred to count). And in the downtime they have refurbed it and really made the most of their celebrated art collection.
Which is, my God, unbelievably good. They are now displaying it marvellously, as well.
Eating there is like eating in a room in the Tate Modern - but with all the very best stuff on the walls. It's fabulous. I just took it for granted before. Now I gaze about in wonder.
It must be one of the greatest collections of modern British art in existence, up there with Saatchi
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
Many people don't see the result of their privilege (paging kinabalu) - bit like fish probably don't think much about the water.
We all benefited from low wages in various areas of the economy.
Every time we went out for a coffee - the staff were cheap, the builders who refitted the cafe were cheap etc etc. Cheap ready made meals in the supermarket.... cheaper building work on our properties... cheaper food delivery....
Boris Johnson continues to lead over Keir Starmer as being the one who best embodies the following descriptions: ‘can build a strong economy’ (44% to 28%), ‘stands up for the interests of the United Kingdom’ (43% to 28%), ‘knows how to get things done’ (42% to 27%), and ‘can tackle the coronavirus pandemic’ (42% to 26%).
Keir Starmer continues to lead only when it comes to best embodying the description of ‘being in good physical and mental health’ (36% to 29%).
This survey is at the same time astonishing and drearily predictable. The UK national interest is whatever you think it is, so OK if Johnson supporters believe he stands for the national interest. But the other stuff people give him credit for is demonstrably false:
Can work with foreign leaders
Gets things done
Brings the country together
Can tackle the coronavirus epidemic
And while there is obviously an epidemic going on the UK has been underperforming its peers economically too.
How are they demonstrably false when it is a question about relative performance and not absolute?
The questions are, "do you agree with this statement for Boris Johnson/Kier Starmer?", so they are absolute.
There is a difference between Starmer and Johnson that the former has never had the chance to demonstrate his competence in these areas. Nevertheless Johnson does badly on all these things compared with his predecessors, except, for Covid, which is a one-off. But most of his predecessors would probably have done better on that too.
The question is right there in the image:
"Between Boris Johnson and Kier Starmer, who do you think best embodies the following characteristics"
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Was it really sovereignty that swung it for the people of Cornwall? Or just envy of the people in different parts of the country who they perceive are more rich than them. (grass is always greener etc..). Funny how they aren't envious when the tourists from the rest of the country fill their caravans and campsites, as well as attend their attractions, whether remainer or leaver. Sovereignty is such a mysterious concept. We've had it for a year now, but I wonder what difference it makes. No difference to me. Uk parliament and Welsh assembly have made our laws for a long time now.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
Re the Groucho, this is another weird small upside to the plague. I've not been to the Groucho for a year and a half, basically (a couple of very boozy visits last summer are too blurred to count). And in the downtime they have refurbed it and really made the most of their celebrated art collection.
Which is, my God, unbelievably good. They are now displaying it marvellously, as well.
Eating there is like eating in a room in the Tate Modern - but with all the very best stuff on the walls. It's fabulous. I just took it for granted before. Now I gaze about in wonder.
It must be one of the greatest collections of modern British art in existence, up there with Saatchi
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Was it really sovereignty that swung it for the people of Cornwall? Or just envy of the people in different parts of the country who they perceive are more rich than them. (grass is always greener etc..). Funny how they aren't envious when the tourists from the rest of the country fill their caravans and campsites, as well as attend their attractions, whether remainer or leaver. Sovereignty is such a mysterious concept. We've had it for a year now, but I wonder what difference it makes. No difference to me. Uk parliament and Welsh assembly have made our laws for a long time now.
If you read my comment properly, I said sovereignty won the day (just about) FOR ME. I did not attach that to my Cornish kinfolk. I reckon they voted Leave for a number of reasons, but one of them - as I say - was a kind of primal urge to kick London in the nads
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Was it really sovereignty that swung it for the people of Cornwall? Or just envy of the people in different parts of the country who they perceive are more rich than them. (grass is always greener etc..). Funny how they aren't envious when the tourists from the rest of the country fill their caravans and campsites, as well as attend their attractions, whether remainer or leaver. Sovereignty is such a mysterious concept. We've had it for a year now, but I wonder what difference it makes. No difference to me. Uk parliament and Welsh assembly have made our laws for a long time now.
The love hate relationship with tourists in tourist areas is a pretty common thing round the world.
The tourists come and pay ludicrous prices. In a number of places in Cornwall, the tourist prices are London prices. The locals get priced out of all the good local housing. Which gets turned into holiday homes that are empty for a large chunk of the year....
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
Re the Groucho, this is another weird small upside to the plague. I've not been to the Groucho for a year and a half, basically (a couple of very boozy visits last summer are too blurred to count). And in the downtime they have refurbed it and really made the most of their celebrated art collection.
Which is, my God, unbelievably good. They are now displaying it marvellously, as well.
Eating there is like eating in a room in the Tate Modern - but with all the very best stuff on the walls. It's fabulous. I just took it for granted before. Now I gaze about in wonder.
It must be one of the greatest collections of modern British art in existence, up there with Saatchi
It seems the Groucho is full of art I don't really want to see, and people I wouldn't want to be seen with.
Understood on the latter point, but the former, no. It is a voluptuously stunning collection. And being able to enjoy it in private with a top-notch bellini or a tranche of turbot is a fantastic pleasure. Like being invited to the gorgeous Soho home of a billionaire art collector with exquisite taste and an excellent chef
They've added a whole new floor, as well. Gorgeous:
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
Many people don't see the result of their privilege (paging kinabalu) - bit like fish probably don't think much about the water.
We all benefited from low wages in various areas of the economy.
Every time we went out for a coffee - the staff were cheap, the builders who refitted the cafe were cheap etc etc. Cheap ready made meals in the supermarket.... cheaper building work on our properties... cheaper food delivery....
I'm not sure that a small increase in the hourly rate is going to have our UK young (and old) flocking back to the fields picking fresh fruit or serving coffee in Costa in any real numbers. The mindset of our citizenry needs to suffer a catastrophic change. Their work ethic would need to improve vastly.
One thing we surely all know, on all political sides in this country, is that open letters published on Twitter are not how opposing politicians propose in good faith to organise meetings. They are how they score points.....
This is fairly clearly a very basic manoeuvre designed to deliver a "Johnson snubs Sturgeon" headline in one or more of the persuadable newspapers. Grist to the mill.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Was it really sovereignty that swung it for the people of Cornwall? Or just envy of the people in different parts of the country who they perceive are more rich than them. (grass is always greener etc..). Funny how they aren't envious when the tourists from the rest of the country fill their caravans and campsites, as well as attend their attractions, whether remainer or leaver. Sovereignty is such a mysterious concept. We've had it for a year now, but I wonder what difference it makes. No difference to me. Uk parliament and Welsh assembly have made our laws for a long time now.
The love hate relationship with tourists in tourist areas is a pretty common thing round the world.
The tourists come and pay ludicrous prices. In a number of places in Cornwall, the tourist prices are London prices. The locals get priced out of all the good local housing. Which gets turned into holiday homes that are empty for a large chunk of the year....
My niece reports - rather sadly - that her entire social life has been destroyed by the absurd boom in Cornish property. None of her friends can afford to rent there, let alone buy, on local wages, so they have ALL moved away
She has no one to go for a drink with. It is properly upsetting for her
Boris Johnson continues to lead over Keir Starmer as being the one who best embodies the following descriptions: ‘can build a strong economy’ (44% to 28%), ‘stands up for the interests of the United Kingdom’ (43% to 28%), ‘knows how to get things done’ (42% to 27%), and ‘can tackle the coronavirus pandemic’ (42% to 26%).
Keir Starmer continues to lead only when it comes to best embodying the description of ‘being in good physical and mental health’ (36% to 29%).
This survey is at the same time astonishing and drearily predictable. The UK national interest is whatever you think it is, so OK if Johnson supporters believe he stands for the national interest. But the other stuff people give him credit for is demonstrably false:
Can work with foreign leaders
Gets things done
Brings the country together
Can tackle the coronavirus epidemic
And while there is obviously an epidemic going on the UK has been underperforming its peers economically too.
How are they demonstrably false when it is a question about relative performance and not absolute?
The questions are, "do you agree with this statement for Boris Johnson/Kier Starmer?", so they are absolute.
There is a difference between Starmer and Johnson that the former has never had the chance to demonstrate his competence in these areas. Nevertheless Johnson does badly on all these things compared with his predecessors, except, for Covid, which is a one-off. But most of his predecessors would probably have done better on that too.
The question is right there in the image:
"Between Boris Johnson and Kier Starmer, who do you think best embodies the following characteristics"
Stand corrected. So when given a choice of two, more people opted for the one the statement definitely does NOT apply to, over the one where we don't know.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
Many people don't see the result of their privilege (paging kinabalu) - bit like fish probably don't think much about the water.
We all benefited from low wages in various areas of the economy.
Every time we went out for a coffee - the staff were cheap, the builders who refitted the cafe were cheap etc etc. Cheap ready made meals in the supermarket.... cheaper building work on our properties... cheaper food delivery....
I'm not sure that a small increase in the hourly rate is going to have our UK young (and old) flocking back to the fields picking fresh fruit or serving coffee in Costa in any real numbers. The mindset of our citizenry needs to suffer a catastrophic change. Their work ethic would need to improve vastly.
To start with, I suggest you have a look at the actual statistics on the labour force. The idea that only foreigners work certain jobs is generally false and caused by London centric views - Zone 1 in London is chock full of foreigners, so it is quite unsurprising that they are serving in all the pubs etc...
As to where it might end up - buy a coffee in Zurich.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Was it really sovereignty that swung it for the people of Cornwall? Or just envy of the people in different parts of the country who they perceive are more rich than them. (grass is always greener etc..). Funny how they aren't envious when the tourists from the rest of the country fill their caravans and campsites, as well as attend their attractions, whether remainer or leaver. Sovereignty is such a mysterious concept. We've had it for a year now, but I wonder what difference it makes. No difference to me. Uk parliament and Welsh assembly have made our laws for a long time now.
The love hate relationship with tourists in tourist areas is a pretty common thing round the world.
The tourists come and pay ludicrous prices. In a number of places in Cornwall, the tourist prices are London prices. The locals get priced out of all the good local housing. Which gets turned into holiday homes that are empty for a large chunk of the year....
I agree about the holiday homes, but here in Wales the local council is allowed to charge double poll tax.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Was it really sovereignty that swung it for the people of Cornwall? Or just envy of the people in different parts of the country who they perceive are more rich than them. (grass is always greener etc..). Funny how they aren't envious when the tourists from the rest of the country fill their caravans and campsites, as well as attend their attractions, whether remainer or leaver. Sovereignty is such a mysterious concept. We've had it for a year now, but I wonder what difference it makes. No difference to me. Uk parliament and Welsh assembly have made our laws for a long time now.
The love hate relationship with tourists in tourist areas is a pretty common thing round the world.
The tourists come and pay ludicrous prices. In a number of places in Cornwall, the tourist prices are London prices. The locals get priced out of all the good local housing. Which gets turned into holiday homes that are empty for a large chunk of the year....
My niece reports - rather sadly - that her entire social life has been destroyed by the absurd boom in Cornish property. None of her friends can afford to rent there, let alone buy, on local wages, so they have ALL moved away
She has no one to go for a drink with. It is properly upsetting for her
How do you fix that?
Well, if you are a Neon Fascist Extremist, you try something so disgusting that you are literally worse than Hitler.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Was it really sovereignty that swung it for the people of Cornwall? Or just envy of the people in different parts of the country who they perceive are more rich than them. (grass is always greener etc..). Funny how they aren't envious when the tourists from the rest of the country fill their caravans and campsites, as well as attend their attractions, whether remainer or leaver. Sovereignty is such a mysterious concept. We've had it for a year now, but I wonder what difference it makes. No difference to me. Uk parliament and Welsh assembly have made our laws for a long time now.
The love hate relationship with tourists in tourist areas is a pretty common thing round the world.
The tourists come and pay ludicrous prices. In a number of places in Cornwall, the tourist prices are London prices. The locals get priced out of all the good local housing. Which gets turned into holiday homes that are empty for a large chunk of the year....
I agree about the holiday homes, but here in Wales the local council is allowed to charge double poll tax.
I was down in Cornwall the other week. In some areas the real estate prices are London prices. Not sensible London prices either.....
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
Many people don't see the result of their privilege (paging kinabalu) - bit like fish probably don't think much about the water.
We all benefited from low wages in various areas of the economy.
Every time we went out for a coffee - the staff were cheap, the builders who refitted the cafe were cheap etc etc. Cheap ready made meals in the supermarket.... cheaper building work on our properties... cheaper food delivery....
I'm not sure that a small increase in the hourly rate is going to have our UK young (and old) flocking back to the fields picking fresh fruit or serving coffee in Costa in any real numbers. The mindset of our citizenry needs to suffer a catastrophic change. Their work ethic would need to improve vastly.
To start with, I suggest you have a look at the actual statistics on the labour force. The idea that only foreigners work certain jobs is generally false and caused by London centric views - Zone 1 in London is chock full of foreigners, so it is quite unsurprising that they are serving in all the pubs etc...
As to where it might end up - buy a coffee in Zurich.
So if our local people ARE doing these jobs, why do they think the rate is low? And why are so many pubs and restaurants in the UK are desperately short of workers? Even in Pembs we have pubs that only open 4 out of 7 days now.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Was it really sovereignty that swung it for the people of Cornwall? Or just envy of the people in different parts of the country who they perceive are more rich than them. (grass is always greener etc..). Funny how they aren't envious when the tourists from the rest of the country fill their caravans and campsites, as well as attend their attractions, whether remainer or leaver. Sovereignty is such a mysterious concept. We've had it for a year now, but I wonder what difference it makes. No difference to me. Uk parliament and Welsh assembly have made our laws for a long time now.
The love hate relationship with tourists in tourist areas is a pretty common thing round the world.
The tourists come and pay ludicrous prices. In a number of places in Cornwall, the tourist prices are London prices. The locals get priced out of all the good local housing. Which gets turned into holiday homes that are empty for a large chunk of the year....
My niece reports - rather sadly - that her entire social life has been destroyed by the absurd boom in Cornish property. None of her friends can afford to rent there, let alone buy, on local wages, so they have ALL moved away
She has no one to go for a drink with. It is properly upsetting for her
How do you fix that?
Super tax holiday homes , if not lived in for more than x months a year then tax the crap out of them. Many parts of Scotland are exactly the same.
Perhaps not the least remarkable thing is that Hirst laid off 63 employees and that wasn't even his whole payroll.
I'm surprised that you are surprised - he always contracted alot of the work on his art out, to other people. Hirst is really a brand, like Gordon Ramsey.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Was it really sovereignty that swung it for the people of Cornwall? Or just envy of the people in different parts of the country who they perceive are more rich than them. (grass is always greener etc..). Funny how they aren't envious when the tourists from the rest of the country fill their caravans and campsites, as well as attend their attractions, whether remainer or leaver. Sovereignty is such a mysterious concept. We've had it for a year now, but I wonder what difference it makes. No difference to me. Uk parliament and Welsh assembly have made our laws for a long time now.
The love hate relationship with tourists in tourist areas is a pretty common thing round the world.
The tourists come and pay ludicrous prices. In a number of places in Cornwall, the tourist prices are London prices. The locals get priced out of all the good local housing. Which gets turned into holiday homes that are empty for a large chunk of the year....
My niece reports - rather sadly - that her entire social life has been destroyed by the absurd boom in Cornish property. None of her friends can afford to rent there, let alone buy, on local wages, so they have ALL moved away
She has no one to go for a drink with. It is properly upsetting for her
How do you fix that?
Change the stamp duty rules, and I don't mean tinker with them.
1) Charge no stamp duty for your home if it's your only one. 2) Charge double stamp duty on second homes and have both the seller and buyer pay it. 3) Keep the 2x poll tax for second homes throughout the UK.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, if you thought we were governed by Brussels rather than Westminster - truly thought it, I mean, rather than just embraced it as a talking point - you'd have been relaxed about the election of a left wing Labour government. Course you would since such a government would be toothless, the real power residing with unelected Eurocrats. Yet you weren't relaxed about this at all. You tended to shit bricks at such a prospect. Ditto all the other right wing Brexiter pundits, on PB or elsewhere, who make the most play of this "sovereignty' point. So I conclude it's a red herring. It's a bit of self-aiding doublethink.
One thing we surely all know, on all political sides in this country, is that open letters published on Twitter are not how opposing politicians propose in good faith to organise meetings. They are how they score points.....
This is fairly clearly a very basic manoeuvre designed to deliver a "Johnson snubs Sturgeon" headline in one or more of the persuadable newspapers. Grist to the mill.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
Many people don't see the result of their privilege (paging kinabalu) - bit like fish probably don't think much about the water.
We all benefited from low wages in various areas of the economy.
Every time we went out for a coffee - the staff were cheap, the builders who refitted the cafe were cheap etc etc. Cheap ready made meals in the supermarket.... cheaper building work on our properties... cheaper food delivery....
I'm not sure that a small increase in the hourly rate is going to have our UK young (and old) flocking back to the fields picking fresh fruit or serving coffee in Costa in any real numbers. The mindset of our citizenry needs to suffer a catastrophic change. Their work ethic would need to improve vastly.
To start with, I suggest you have a look at the actual statistics on the labour force. The idea that only foreigners work certain jobs is generally false and caused by London centric views - Zone 1 in London is chock full of foreigners, so it is quite unsurprising that they are serving in all the pubs etc...
As to where it might end up - buy a coffee in Zurich.
So if our local people ARE doing these jobs, why do they think the rate is low? And why are so many pubs and restaurants in the UK are desperately short of workers? Even in Pembs we have pubs that only open 4 out of 7 days now.
The reason the rates of pay were low was an ample supply of labour to do the jobs. Now there isn't.
The first reaction of businesses has been to avoid raising prices. Hence Tesco and the other cooperates trying to get their supplier to carry the can for increased wages. Others have raised wages by a certain amount.
This will take time to change the labour market. It has been a long, long time since there was a labour shortage in many of these markets. Learning how to deal with it is an issue....
Eventually a new equilibrium will be found. What that will look like, I'm not sure. My guess is higher prices to pay for higher wages, plus alot of effort to try and reduce required staff numbers.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, if you thought we were governed by Brussels rather than Westminster - truly thought it, I mean, rather than just embraced it as a talking point - you'd have been relaxed about the election of a left wing Labour government. Course you would since such a government would be toothless, the real power residing with unelected Eurocrats. Yet you weren't relaxed about this at all. You tended to shit bricks at such a prospect. Ditto all the other right wing Brexiter pundits, on PB or elsewhere, who make the most play of this "sovereignty' point. So I conclude it's a red herring. It's a bit of self-aiding doublethink.
No attempt to engage with the argument, just a retreat to your comforting shibboleths. As ever
Perhaps not the least remarkable thing is that Hirst laid off 63 employees and that wasn't even his whole payroll.
I'm surprised that you are surprised - he always contracted alot of the work on his art out, to other people. Hirst is really a brand, like Gordon Ramsey.
I'm not surprised by the form, just the number. Artists running ateliers is nothing new but the production line stuff is getting blatant, Koons being the exemplar. When people are back to buying Hirst's derivative tat I guess Covid will definitely be over.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Was it really sovereignty that swung it for the people of Cornwall? Or just envy of the people in different parts of the country who they perceive are more rich than them. (grass is always greener etc..). Funny how they aren't envious when the tourists from the rest of the country fill their caravans and campsites, as well as attend their attractions, whether remainer or leaver. Sovereignty is such a mysterious concept. We've had it for a year now, but I wonder what difference it makes. No difference to me. Uk parliament and Welsh assembly have made our laws for a long time now.
The love hate relationship with tourists in tourist areas is a pretty common thing round the world.
The tourists come and pay ludicrous prices. In a number of places in Cornwall, the tourist prices are London prices. The locals get priced out of all the good local housing. Which gets turned into holiday homes that are empty for a large chunk of the year....
My niece reports - rather sadly - that her entire social life has been destroyed by the absurd boom in Cornish property. None of her friends can afford to rent there, let alone buy, on local wages, so they have ALL moved away
She has no one to go for a drink with. It is properly upsetting for her
How do you fix that?
Well, if you are a Neon Fascist Extremist, you try something so disgusting that you are literally worse than Hitler.
Build 5 more houses on every village.
I prefer to be an Argon fascist, the colour suits me more...
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Was it really sovereignty that swung it for the people of Cornwall? Or just envy of the people in different parts of the country who they perceive are more rich than them. (grass is always greener etc..). Funny how they aren't envious when the tourists from the rest of the country fill their caravans and campsites, as well as attend their attractions, whether remainer or leaver. Sovereignty is such a mysterious concept. We've had it for a year now, but I wonder what difference it makes. No difference to me. Uk parliament and Welsh assembly have made our laws for a long time now.
The love hate relationship with tourists in tourist areas is a pretty common thing round the world.
The tourists come and pay ludicrous prices. In a number of places in Cornwall, the tourist prices are London prices. The locals get priced out of all the good local housing. Which gets turned into holiday homes that are empty for a large chunk of the year....
My niece reports - rather sadly - that her entire social life has been destroyed by the absurd boom in Cornish property. None of her friends can afford to rent there, let alone buy, on local wages, so they have ALL moved away
She has no one to go for a drink with. It is properly upsetting for her
How do you fix that?
Super tax holiday homes , if not lived in for more than x months a year then tax the crap out of them. Many parts of Scotland are exactly the same.
Yes, somewhere like Skye, I really feel for the locals. Their lives are genuinely damaged by this. Communities broken up
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
Many people don't see the result of their privilege (paging kinabalu) - bit like fish probably don't think much about the water.
We all benefited from low wages in various areas of the economy.
Every time we went out for a coffee - the staff were cheap, the builders who refitted the cafe were cheap etc etc. Cheap ready made meals in the supermarket.... cheaper building work on our properties... cheaper food delivery....
I'll put you down for the campaign to strengthen trade unions and regulate the gig economy then, will I?
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, if you thought we were governed by Brussels rather than Westminster - truly thought it, I mean, rather than just embraced it as a talking point - you'd have been relaxed about the election of a left wing Labour government. Course you would since such a government would be toothless, the real power residing with unelected Eurocrats. Yet you weren't relaxed about this at all. You tended to shit bricks at such a prospect. Ditto all the other right wing Brexiter pundits, on PB or elsewhere, who make the most play of this "sovereignty' point. So I conclude it's a red herring. It's a bit of self-aiding doublethink.
No attempt to engage with the argument, just a retreat to your comforting shibboleths. As ever
It's a crap argument, voting for soveriegnty is like voting for the Loch Ness Monster, it doesn't really exist outside the minds of conspiracy theorists and other assorted UFO believers.
Perhaps not the least remarkable thing is that Hirst laid off 63 employees and that wasn't even his whole payroll.
I'm surprised that you are surprised - he always contracted alot of the work on his art out, to other people. Hirst is really a brand, like Gordon Ramsey.
I'm not surprised by the form, just the number. Artists running ateliers is nothing new but the production line stuff is getting blatant, Koons being the exemplar. When people are back to buying Hirst's derivative tat I guess Covid will definitely be over.
I believe he in-sourced a bunch of stuff, after the incident when one of his outsourcing workshops tried to claim some credit for some of the art produced. That plus achieving ridiculous levels of wealth so he could afford to keep staff on retainer, year round....
My guess is that he did a rationalisation and realised his workforce had bloated.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Was it really sovereignty that swung it for the people of Cornwall? Or just envy of the people in different parts of the country who they perceive are more rich than them. (grass is always greener etc..). Funny how they aren't envious when the tourists from the rest of the country fill their caravans and campsites, as well as attend their attractions, whether remainer or leaver. Sovereignty is such a mysterious concept. We've had it for a year now, but I wonder what difference it makes. No difference to me. Uk parliament and Welsh assembly have made our laws for a long time now.
The love hate relationship with tourists in tourist areas is a pretty common thing round the world.
The tourists come and pay ludicrous prices. In a number of places in Cornwall, the tourist prices are London prices. The locals get priced out of all the good local housing. Which gets turned into holiday homes that are empty for a large chunk of the year....
My niece reports - rather sadly - that her entire social life has been destroyed by the absurd boom in Cornish property. None of her friends can afford to rent there, let alone buy, on local wages, so they have ALL moved away
She has no one to go for a drink with. It is properly upsetting for her
How do you fix that?
Change the stamp duty rules, and I don't mean tinker with them.
1) Charge no stamp duty for your home if it's your only one. 2) Charge double stamp duty on second homes and have both the seller and buyer pay it. 3) Keep the 2x poll tax for second homes throughout the UK.
I rather think I agree. This brings out my inner Bolshevik
I have a friend who is living with a very rich woman - who has THREE homes. A big house in Notting Hill, a very big house in north Cornwall, and now a big house in Walberswick Suffolk (a corner of England which is fast turning into a new Padstow)
I mean, quite frankly, fuck that. Who needs THREE BIG homes, especially in the same bloody country?
If she wants that, she should pay tons in tax for the damage she is doing to local lives.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Was it really sovereignty that swung it for the people of Cornwall? Or just envy of the people in different parts of the country who they perceive are more rich than them. (grass is always greener etc..). Funny how they aren't envious when the tourists from the rest of the country fill their caravans and campsites, as well as attend their attractions, whether remainer or leaver. Sovereignty is such a mysterious concept. We've had it for a year now, but I wonder what difference it makes. No difference to me. Uk parliament and Welsh assembly have made our laws for a long time now.
The love hate relationship with tourists in tourist areas is a pretty common thing round the world.
The tourists come and pay ludicrous prices. In a number of places in Cornwall, the tourist prices are London prices. The locals get priced out of all the good local housing. Which gets turned into holiday homes that are empty for a large chunk of the year....
I agree about the holiday homes, but here in Wales the local council is allowed to charge double poll tax.
All that is going to do is raise extra cash for the Council. It’s not going to deter people buying second homes
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
It probably did benefit me more than most given that I live and work in London and have a well paid job. Low wage workers have always been a net benefit not low wage workers. All of those studies which removed the human element from the misery of low wage work and living in working poverty and simply said that EU immigration didn't impact wages of low wage workers were always bullshit. One of the major reasons I voted to leave was to give those people who espoused it a massive black eye and from this thread we can see that it's hurt them a lot.
Plus we now know, thanks to the FT and Jonathan Portes (both big Remainers) that the number of Eastern European economic migrants was undercounted by a huge amount. People who were competing for jobs, services and housing knew this, and voted Leave. Their employers knew it, and voted Remain, whilst the Blairite/Cameroon virtue signallers believed what they wanted to believe and called those in the know nasty names
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
Many people don't see the result of their privilege (paging kinabalu) - bit like fish probably don't think much about the water.
We all benefited from low wages in various areas of the economy.
Every time we went out for a coffee - the staff were cheap, the builders who refitted the cafe were cheap etc etc. Cheap ready made meals in the supermarket.... cheaper building work on our properties... cheaper food delivery....
I'll put you down for the campaign to strengthen trade unions and regulate the gig economy then, will I?
Not sure what trade unions will do about a supply of labour in excess of demand. Unless you are suggesting going back tis the joy joy days of the closed shop? In which case there will be fun deciding who is "in" and gets work and who is "out" and doesn't.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, if you thought we were governed by Brussels rather than Westminster - truly thought it, I mean, rather than just embraced it as a talking point - you'd have been relaxed about the election of a left wing Labour government. Course you would since such a government would be toothless, the real power residing with unelected Eurocrats. Yet you weren't relaxed about this at all. You tended to shit bricks at such a prospect. Ditto all the other right wing Brexiter pundits, on PB or elsewhere, who make the most play of this "sovereignty' point. So I conclude it's a red herring. It's a bit of self-aiding doublethink.
No attempt to engage with the argument, just a retreat to your comforting shibboleths. As ever
It's a crap argument, voting for soveriegnty is like voting for the Loch Ness Monster, it doesn't really exist outside the minds of conspiracy theorists and other assorted UFO believers.
Absolute sovereignty doesn't exist, but that doesn't make it a meaningless concept. Why do you think the EU increasingly bangs on about it?
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
It probably did benefit me more than most given that I live and work in London and have a well paid job. Low wage workers have always been a net benefit not low wage workers. All of those studies which removed the human element from the misery of low wage work and living in working poverty and simply said that EU immigration didn't impact wages of low wage workers were always bullshit. One of the major reasons I voted to leave was to give those people who espoused it a massive black eye and from this thread we can see that it's hurt them a lot.
Plus we now know, thanks to the FT and Jonathan Portes (both big Remainers) that the number of Eastern European economic migrants was undercounted by a huge amount. People who were competing for jobs, services and housing knew this, and voted Leave. Their employers knew it, and voted Remain, whilst the Blairite/Cameroon virtue signallers believed what they wanted to believe and called those in the know nasty names
Well I guess it shouldn't be a surprise: Dominic Cummings is a fan of Lee Kuan Yew, the late dictator of Singapore. I wonder whether he's read the notorious hanging flogging eugenicist's explanation yet for why he abolished jury trials for murder. If he allowed juries in murder cases, Lee wrote, he could have pregnant women on them - and how could anybody expect a pregnant woman to be keen on voting guilty in the certain knowledge that a guilty verdict would bring the death penalty?
Incidentally if anybody says Lee wasn't a dictator, they don't have a clue what they're talking about.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Was it really sovereignty that swung it for the people of Cornwall? Or just envy of the people in different parts of the country who they perceive are more rich than them. (grass is always greener etc..). Funny how they aren't envious when the tourists from the rest of the country fill their caravans and campsites, as well as attend their attractions, whether remainer or leaver. Sovereignty is such a mysterious concept. We've had it for a year now, but I wonder what difference it makes. No difference to me. Uk parliament and Welsh assembly have made our laws for a long time now.
The love hate relationship with tourists in tourist areas is a pretty common thing round the world.
The tourists come and pay ludicrous prices. In a number of places in Cornwall, the tourist prices are London prices. The locals get priced out of all the good local housing. Which gets turned into holiday homes that are empty for a large chunk of the year....
My niece reports - rather sadly - that her entire social life has been destroyed by the absurd boom in Cornish property. None of her friends can afford to rent there, let alone buy, on local wages, so they have ALL moved away
She has no one to go for a drink with. It is properly upsetting for her
How do you fix that?
Change the stamp duty rules, and I don't mean tinker with them.
1) Charge no stamp duty for your home if it's your only one. 2) Charge double stamp duty on second homes and have both the seller and buyer pay it. 3) Keep the 2x poll tax for second homes throughout the UK.
I rather think I agree. This brings out my inner Bolshevik
I have a friend who is living with a very rich woman - who has THREE homes. A big house in Notting Hill, a very big house in north Cornwall, and now a big house in Walberswick Suffolk (a corner of England which is fast turning into a new Padstow)
I mean, quite frankly, fuck that. Who needs THREE BIG homes, especially in the same bloody country?
If she wants that, she should pay tons in tax for the damage she is doing to local lives.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
It probably did benefit me more than most given that I live and work in London and have a well paid job. Low wage workers have always been a net benefit not low wage workers. All of those studies which removed the human element from the misery of low wage work and living in working poverty and simply said that EU immigration didn't impact wages of low wage workers were always bullshit. One of the major reasons I voted to leave was to give those people who espoused it a massive black eye and from this thread we can see that it's hurt them a lot.
Plus we now know, thanks to the FT and Jonathan Portes (both big Remainers) that the number of Eastern European economic migrants was undercounted by a huge amount. People who were competing for jobs, services and housing knew this, and voted Leave. Their employers knew it, and voted Remain, whilst the Blairite/Cameroon virtue signallers believed what they wanted to believe and called those in the know nasty names
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, if you thought we were governed by Brussels rather than Westminster - truly thought it, I mean, rather than just embraced it as a talking point - you'd have been relaxed about the election of a left wing Labour government. Course you would since such a government would be toothless, the real power residing with unelected Eurocrats. Yet you weren't relaxed about this at all. You tended to shit bricks at such a prospect. Ditto all the other right wing Brexiter pundits, on PB or elsewhere, who make the most play of this "sovereignty' point. So I conclude it's a red herring. It's a bit of self-aiding doublethink.
No attempt to engage with the argument, just a retreat to your comforting shibboleths. As ever
I'm homing onto the very crux of your argument. You say it was about sovereignty, I'm showing that it really wasn't. The question therefore begged is what was it about? And there I will not tread. I think I know but I'm not 100% sure, and I need to be before going to press with it. You throw up just enough dust to get in my eyes sometimes and prevent a firm read.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
It probably did benefit me more than most given that I live and work in London and have a well paid job. Low wage workers have always been a net benefit not low wage workers. All of those studies which removed the human element from the misery of low wage work and living in working poverty and simply said that EU immigration didn't impact wages of low wage workers were always bullshit. One of the major reasons I voted to leave was to give those people who espoused it a massive black eye and from this thread we can see that it's hurt them a lot.
Plus we now know, thanks to the FT and Jonathan Portes (both big Remainers) that the number of Eastern European economic migrants was undercounted by a huge amount. People who were competing for jobs, services and housing knew this, and voted Leave. Their employers knew it, and voted Remain, whilst the Blairite/Cameroon virtue signallers believed what they wanted to believe and called those in the know nasty names
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, if you thought we were governed by Brussels rather than Westminster - truly thought it, I mean, rather than just embraced it as a talking point - you'd have been relaxed about the election of a left wing Labour government. Course you would since such a government would be toothless, the real power residing with unelected Eurocrats. Yet you weren't relaxed about this at all. You tended to shit bricks at such a prospect. Ditto all the other right wing Brexiter pundits, on PB or elsewhere, who make the most play of this "sovereignty' point. So I conclude it's a red herring. It's a bit of self-aiding doublethink.
No attempt to engage with the argument, just a retreat to your comforting shibboleths. As ever
I'm homing onto the very crux of your argument. You say it was about sovereignty - I'm showing that it really wasn't. The question therefore begged is what was it about. And there, I will not tread. I think I know but I'm not 100% sure and I need to be before going to press with it. You throw up just enough dust to get in my eyes sometimes and prevent a firm read.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, if you thought we were governed by Brussels rather than Westminster - truly thought it, I mean, rather than just embraced it as a talking point - you'd have been relaxed about the election of a left wing Labour government. Course you would since such a government would be toothless, the real power residing with unelected Eurocrats. Yet you weren't relaxed about this at all. You tended to shit bricks at such a prospect. Ditto all the other right wing Brexiter pundits, on PB or elsewhere, who make the most play of this "sovereignty' point. So I conclude it's a red herring. It's a bit of self-aiding doublethink.
No attempt to engage with the argument, just a retreat to your comforting shibboleths. As ever
It's a crap argument, voting for soveriegnty is like voting for the Loch Ness Monster, it doesn't really exist outside the minds of conspiracy theorists and other assorted UFO believers.
Absolute sovereignty doesn't exist, but that doesn't make it a meaningless concept. Why do you think the EU increasingly bangs on about it?
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
It probably did benefit me more than most given that I live and work in London and have a well paid job. Low wage workers have always been a net benefit not low wage workers. All of those studies which removed the human element from the misery of low wage work and living in working poverty and simply said that EU immigration didn't impact wages of low wage workers were always bullshit. One of the major reasons I voted to leave was to give those people who espoused it a massive black eye and from this thread we can see that it's hurt them a lot.
Plus we now know, thanks to the FT and Jonathan Portes (both big Remainers) that the number of Eastern European economic migrants was undercounted by a huge amount. People who were competing for jobs, services and housing knew this, and voted Leave. Their employers knew it, and voted Remain, whilst the Blairite/Cameroon virtue signallers believed what they wanted to believe and called those in the know nasty names
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, if you thought we were governed by Brussels rather than Westminster - truly thought it, I mean, rather than just embraced it as a talking point - you'd have been relaxed about the election of a left wing Labour government. Course you would since such a government would be toothless, the real power residing with unelected Eurocrats. Yet you weren't relaxed about this at all. You tended to shit bricks at such a prospect. Ditto all the other right wing Brexiter pundits, on PB or elsewhere, who make the most play of this "sovereignty' point. So I conclude it's a red herring. It's a bit of self-aiding doublethink.
No attempt to engage with the argument, just a retreat to your comforting shibboleths. As ever
It's a crap argument, voting for soveriegnty is like voting for the Loch Ness Monster, it doesn't really exist outside the minds of conspiracy theorists and other assorted UFO believers.
Absolute sovereignty doesn't exist, but that doesn't make it a meaningless concept. Why do you think the EU increasingly bangs on about it?
Exists in a weird form north of Gretna apparently. Giving up a greater degree of sovereignty in a non consenting union apparently gives Scots more control than ceding a lesser degree of sovereignty in a union of consent.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, if you thought we were governed by Brussels rather than Westminster - truly thought it, I mean, rather than just embraced it as a talking point - you'd have been relaxed about the election of a left wing Labour government. Course you would since such a government would be toothless, the real power residing with unelected Eurocrats. Yet you weren't relaxed about this at all. You tended to shit bricks at such a prospect. Ditto all the other right wing Brexiter pundits, on PB or elsewhere, who make the most play of this "sovereignty' point. So I conclude it's a red herring. It's a bit of self-aiding doublethink.
No attempt to engage with the argument, just a retreat to your comforting shibboleths. As ever
It's a crap argument, voting for soveriegnty is like voting for the Loch Ness Monster, it doesn't really exist outside the minds of conspiracy theorists and other assorted UFO believers.
Absolute sovereignty doesn't exist, but that doesn't make it a meaningless concept. Why do you think the EU increasingly bangs on about it?
Exists in a weird form north of Gretna apparently. Giving up a greater degree of sovereignty in a non consenting union apparently gives Scots more control than ceding a lesser degree of sovereignty in a union of consent.
Non-consenting union? There was a vote on that a few years ago.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, if you thought we were governed by Brussels rather than Westminster - truly thought it, I mean, rather than just embraced it as a talking point - you'd have been relaxed about the election of a left wing Labour government. Course you would since such a government would be toothless, the real power residing with unelected Eurocrats. Yet you weren't relaxed about this at all. You tended to shit bricks at such a prospect. Ditto all the other right wing Brexiter pundits, on PB or elsewhere, who make the most play of this "sovereignty' point. So I conclude it's a red herring. It's a bit of self-aiding doublethink.
No attempt to engage with the argument, just a retreat to your comforting shibboleths. As ever
It's a crap argument, voting for soveriegnty is like voting for the Loch Ness Monster, it doesn't really exist outside the minds of conspiracy theorists and other assorted UFO believers.
Absolute sovereignty doesn't exist, but that doesn't make it a meaningless concept. Why do you think the EU increasingly bangs on about it?
Exists in a weird form north of Gretna apparently. Giving up a greater degree of sovereignty in a non consenting union apparently gives Scots more control than ceding a lesser degree of sovereignty in a union of consent.
Non-consenting union? There was a vote on that a few years ago.
Who decides when Scotland has another referendum? Who decided when the UK wanted (sic) a referendum on EU membership?
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, if you thought we were governed by Brussels rather than Westminster - truly thought it, I mean, rather than just embraced it as a talking point - you'd have been relaxed about the election of a left wing Labour government. Course you would since such a government would be toothless, the real power residing with unelected Eurocrats. Yet you weren't relaxed about this at all. You tended to shit bricks at such a prospect. Ditto all the other right wing Brexiter pundits, on PB or elsewhere, who make the most play of this "sovereignty' point. So I conclude it's a red herring. It's a bit of self-aiding doublethink.
No attempt to engage with the argument, just a retreat to your comforting shibboleths. As ever
I'm homing onto the very crux of your argument. You say it was about sovereignty - I'm showing that it really wasn't. The question therefore begged is what was it about. And there, I will not tread. I think I know but I'm not 100% sure and I need to be before going to press with it. You throw up just enough dust to get in my eyes sometimes and prevent a firm read.
Sovereignty is fundamental to the question of immigration, which nobody would deny played a part in the vote. Do we as a political community have the right to set conditions on migration, or do we merely elect people to administer the province of the UK?
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, if you thought we were governed by Brussels rather than Westminster - truly thought it, I mean, rather than just embraced it as a talking point - you'd have been relaxed about the election of a left wing Labour government. Course you would since such a government would be toothless, the real power residing with unelected Eurocrats. Yet you weren't relaxed about this at all. You tended to shit bricks at such a prospect. Ditto all the other right wing Brexiter pundits, on PB or elsewhere, who make the most play of this "sovereignty' point. So I conclude it's a red herring. It's a bit of self-aiding doublethink.
No attempt to engage with the argument, just a retreat to your comforting shibboleths. As ever
It's a crap argument, voting for soveriegnty is like voting for the Loch Ness Monster, it doesn't really exist outside the minds of conspiracy theorists and other assorted UFO believers.
Absolute sovereignty doesn't exist, but that doesn't make it a meaningless concept. Why do you think the EU increasingly bangs on about it?
Exists in a weird form north of Gretna apparently. Giving up a greater degree of sovereignty in a non consenting union apparently gives Scots more control than ceding a lesser degree of sovereignty in a union of consent.
Non-consenting union? There was a vote on that a few years ago.
Yes, I get the argument that things may have changed, and that another vote should be held to test that, but that's not the same thing as there being proven non-consent.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
Many people don't see the result of their privilege (paging kinabalu) - bit like fish probably don't think much about the water.
We all benefited from low wages in various areas of the economy.
Every time we went out for a coffee - the staff were cheap, the builders who refitted the cafe were cheap etc etc. Cheap ready made meals in the supermarket.... cheaper building work on our properties... cheaper food delivery....
Does Costa have differential pricing depending on what area of the country it is in and what the labour market looks like?
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, if you thought we were governed by Brussels rather than Westminster - truly thought it, I mean, rather than just embraced it as a talking point - you'd have been relaxed about the election of a left wing Labour government. Course you would since such a government would be toothless, the real power residing with unelected Eurocrats. Yet you weren't relaxed about this at all. You tended to shit bricks at such a prospect. Ditto all the other right wing Brexiter pundits, on PB or elsewhere, who make the most play of this "sovereignty' point. So I conclude it's a red herring. It's a bit of self-aiding doublethink.
No attempt to engage with the argument, just a retreat to your comforting shibboleths. As ever
It's a crap argument, voting for soveriegnty is like voting for the Loch Ness Monster, it doesn't really exist outside the minds of conspiracy theorists and other assorted UFO believers.
Absolute sovereignty doesn't exist, but that doesn't make it a meaningless concept. Why do you think the EU increasingly bangs on about it?
Exists in a weird form north of Gretna apparently. Giving up a greater degree of sovereignty in a non consenting union apparently gives Scots more control than ceding a lesser degree of sovereignty in a union of consent.
Non-consenting union? There was a vote on that a few years ago.
In Scotland-wide votes so far this century, it's 12-0 to unionists: in 2001 (Westminster), 2003 (Holyrood), 2005 (W), 2007 (H), 2010 (W), 2011 (H), 2014 (referendum), 2015 (W), 2016 (H), 2017 (W), 2019 (W), and 2021 (H).
It must be so hard for Scots to live under the iron-heeled jackboot of English colonial rulers who never ask them what they want. And it's fake news to suggest otherwise.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, if you thought we were governed by Brussels rather than Westminster - truly thought it, I mean, rather than just embraced it as a talking point - you'd have been relaxed about the election of a left wing Labour government. Course you would since such a government would be toothless, the real power residing with unelected Eurocrats. Yet you weren't relaxed about this at all. You tended to shit bricks at such a prospect. Ditto all the other right wing Brexiter pundits, on PB or elsewhere, who make the most play of this "sovereignty' point. So I conclude it's a red herring. It's a bit of self-aiding doublethink.
No attempt to engage with the argument, just a retreat to your comforting shibboleths. As ever
I'm homing onto the very crux of your argument. You say it was about sovereignty - I'm showing that it really wasn't. The question therefore begged is what was it about. And there, I will not tread. I think I know but I'm not 100% sure and I need to be before going to press with it. You throw up just enough dust to get in my eyes sometimes and prevent a firm read.
And people say accountants are boring
Didn't John Major run away from the circus to become an accountant?...
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, if you thought we were governed by Brussels rather than Westminster - truly thought it, I mean, rather than just embraced it as a talking point - you'd have been relaxed about the election of a left wing Labour government. Course you would since such a government would be toothless, the real power residing with unelected Eurocrats. Yet you weren't relaxed about this at all. You tended to shit bricks at such a prospect. Ditto all the other right wing Brexiter pundits, on PB or elsewhere, who make the most play of this "sovereignty' point. So I conclude it's a red herring. It's a bit of self-aiding doublethink.
No attempt to engage with the argument, just a retreat to your comforting shibboleths. As ever
I'm homing onto the very crux of your argument. You say it was about sovereignty - I'm showing that it really wasn't. The question therefore begged is what was it about. And there, I will not tread. I think I know but I'm not 100% sure and I need to be before going to press with it. You throw up just enough dust to get in my eyes sometimes and prevent a firm read.
And people say accountants are boring
Ok, fine. Let's hear more about thrilling fruity you.
That niece in Cornwall for example. Why doesn't she move away like all her mates? What is at about them that doesn't apply to her?
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
It probably did benefit me more than most given that I live and work in London and have a well paid job. Low wage workers have always been a net benefit not low wage workers. All of those studies which removed the human element from the misery of low wage work and living in working poverty and simply said that EU immigration didn't impact wages of low wage workers were always bullshit. One of the major reasons I voted to leave was to give those people who espoused it a massive black eye and from this thread we can see that it's hurt them a lot.
Plus we now know, thanks to the FT and Jonathan Portes (both big Remainers) that the number of Eastern European economic migrants was undercounted by a huge amount. People who were competing for jobs, services and housing knew this, and voted Leave. Their employers knew it, and voted Remain, whilst the Blairite/Cameroon virtue signallers believed what they wanted to believe and called those in the know nasty names
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Was it really sovereignty that swung it for the people of Cornwall? Or just envy of the people in different parts of the country who they perceive are more rich than them. (grass is always greener etc..). Funny how they aren't envious when the tourists from the rest of the country fill their caravans and campsites, as well as attend their attractions, whether remainer or leaver. Sovereignty is such a mysterious concept. We've had it for a year now, but I wonder what difference it makes. No difference to me. Uk parliament and Welsh assembly have made our laws for a long time now.
The love hate relationship with tourists in tourist areas is a pretty common thing round the world.
The tourists come and pay ludicrous prices. In a number of places in Cornwall, the tourist prices are London prices. The locals get priced out of all the good local housing. Which gets turned into holiday homes that are empty for a large chunk of the year....
I agree about the holiday homes, but here in Wales the local council is allowed to charge double poll tax.
All that is going to do is raise extra cash for the Council. It’s not going to deter people buying second homes
Given the financial straits most councils are in, that might be a good thing in itself.
A way of soaking the rich outsiders for extra council tax to repair local roads? Most people would jump at that.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
You know fuck all about me, so don't accuse me of pulling ladders up. It's the rich who benefit from what you describe, obviously. Some of the rich were remainers, some leavers. Probably about 48:52. That's capitalism for you - I suspect you benefit from it much more than I ever have.
It probably did benefit me more than most given that I live and work in London and have a well paid job. Low wage workers have always been a net benefit not low wage workers. All of those studies which removed the human element from the misery of low wage work and living in working poverty and simply said that EU immigration didn't impact wages of low wage workers were always bullshit. One of the major reasons I voted to leave was to give those people who espoused it a massive black eye and from this thread we can see that it's hurt them a lot.
Plus we now know, thanks to the FT and Jonathan Portes (both big Remainers) that the number of Eastern European economic migrants was undercounted by a huge amount. People who were competing for jobs, services and housing knew this, and voted Leave. Their employers knew it, and voted Remain, whilst the Blairite/Cameroon virtue signallers believed what they wanted to believe and called those in the know nasty names
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
That's great news that the Groucho is buzzing. Can't wait to get myself there and see what all the fuss is about.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
My extended family in Cornwall - a large bunch of people - is generally pro-Leave (like the rest of Cornwall). Get them a bit tipsy and ask them about their Brexit vote, and a general resentment at London having all the fun and money emerges. I am sure it is a driver across provincial Britain
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
Well, as I think I've mentioned before, if you thought we were governed by Brussels rather than Westminster - truly thought it, I mean, rather than just embraced it as a talking point - you'd have been relaxed about the election of a left wing Labour government. Course you would since such a government would be toothless, the real power residing with unelected Eurocrats. Yet you weren't relaxed about this at all. You tended to shit bricks at such a prospect. Ditto all the other right wing Brexiter pundits, on PB or elsewhere, who make the most play of this "sovereignty' point. So I conclude it's a red herring. It's a bit of self-aiding doublethink.
No attempt to engage with the argument, just a retreat to your comforting shibboleths. As ever
It's a crap argument, voting for soveriegnty is like voting for the Loch Ness Monster, it doesn't really exist outside the minds of conspiracy theorists and other assorted UFO believers.
Absolute sovereignty doesn't exist, but that doesn't make it a meaningless concept. Why do you think the EU increasingly bangs on about it?
Exists in a weird form north of Gretna apparently. Giving up a greater degree of sovereignty in a non consenting union apparently gives Scots more control than ceding a lesser degree of sovereignty in a union of consent.
No, the algebra doesn't quite work there, does it.
Comments
It’s total bullshit.
But - it allows Brexiters to sleep at night.
As for Brexit being a cry from the provinces for a more equitable split of power, wealth and opportunity in early 21st century Britain, it's a nice thought, but I wonder if it's accurate.
Reason I'm skeptical is that I very much want that, whereas you very much don't, and I very much voted Remain whereas you very much voted Leave. That's close to being a disprove when you think about it - given both you and I are astuties who know what we want and know how to get it.
Just goes to show how divorced from the real world Twitter is.....
Instead you sat down and thought, I know what, I will tell a big fat lie. And you did. And you got immediately caught out, because this is PB
And now you claim that "you essentially meant something completely different to what I said"
Brilliant. Not.
Check out the US data.
This is fairly clearly a very basic manoeuvre designed to deliver a "Johnson snubs Sturgeon" headline in one or more of the persuadable newspapers. Grist to the mill.
https://twitter.com/dhothersall/status/1422233422097960965?s=20
- Can work with foreign leaders
- Gets things done
- Brings the country together
- Can tackle the coronavirus epidemic
And while there is obviously an epidemic going on the UK has been underperforming its peers economically too.Who would be the UK equivalent to get all the vaxsceptic fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists on board?
There is a persistent shortage of the highly educated - which is down to higher demand than the capacity to train them (universities) world wide.
A point for pedantry or against casual hyperbole?
I would also characterise fixating on a very small part of someone's post, which they have in good grace clarified and corrected, as a strong indication that that person has nothing to say about the rest of the actual post. Do leap in and correct me again though if you wish.
And you are simply wrong that I "very much voted Leave" - tho I can see why you might think that, so this is not a critique
My vote was finely balanced. My head and heart were both split. I liked aspects of the EU very much - FOM the most of all. Tho I respect voters who wanted an end to it, as it was damaging their lives. This was a real issue. I also strongly suspected Brexit would damage the country economically (but not grievously), and be bad for London property owners - eg me
But the sovereignty argument won out, on the morning of the vote. I do believe we will be better off governing ourselves, in the end, and more prosperous too, and there are just too many repulsive aspects to the EU. The fraud of the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was an unforgivable outrage against the European people
So there you are, I actually voted UNSELFISHLY. I voted against my own perceived financial interests, and for the betterment of the country and the country my daughters will inherit. But it was a close call
There is a difference between Starmer and Johnson that the former has never had the chance to demonstrate his competence in these areas. Nevertheless Johnson does badly on all these things compared with his predecessors, except, for Covid, which is a one-off. But most of his predecessors would probably have done better on that too.
Which is, my God, unbelievably good. They are now displaying it marvellously, as well.
Eating there is like eating in a room in the Tate Modern - but with all the very best stuff on the walls. It's fabulous. I just took it for granted before. Now I gaze about in wonder.
It must be one of the greatest collections of modern British art in existence, up there with Saatchi
https://www.christies.com/features/The-Groucho-Club-Collection-6340-1.aspx
We all benefited from low wages in various areas of the economy.
Every time we went out for a coffee - the staff were cheap, the builders who refitted the cafe were cheap etc etc. Cheap ready made meals in the supermarket.... cheaper building work on our properties... cheaper food delivery....
"Between Boris Johnson and Kier Starmer, who do you think best embodies the following characteristics"
The tourists come and pay ludicrous prices. In a number of places in Cornwall, the tourist prices are London prices. The locals get priced out of all the good local housing. Which gets turned into holiday homes that are empty for a large chunk of the year....
They've added a whole new floor, as well. Gorgeous:
https://thespaces.com/transit-studio-gives-londons-iconic-groucho-club-a-nip-tuck/
https://architizer.com/projects/the-groucho-club/
She has no one to go for a drink with. It is properly upsetting for her
How do you fix that?
As to where it might end up - buy a coffee in Zurich.
https://twitter.com/ccohanlon/status/1422242554578448390?s=20
Perhaps not the least remarkable thing is that Hirst laid off 63 employees and that wasn't even his whole payroll.
Build 5 more houses on every village.
1) Charge no stamp duty for your home if it's your only one.
2) Charge double stamp duty on second homes and have both the seller and buyer pay it.
3) Keep the 2x poll tax for second homes throughout the UK.
The first reaction of businesses has been to avoid raising prices. Hence Tesco and the other cooperates trying to get their supplier to carry the can for increased wages. Others have raised wages by a certain amount.
This will take time to change the labour market. It has been a long, long time since there was a labour shortage in many of these markets. Learning how to deal with it is an issue....
Eventually a new equilibrium will be found. What that will look like, I'm not sure. My guess is higher prices to pay for higher wages, plus alot of effort to try and reduce required staff numbers.
My guess is that he did a rationalisation and realised his workforce had bloated.
I have a friend who is living with a very rich woman - who has THREE homes. A big house in Notting Hill, a very big house in north Cornwall, and now a big house in Walberswick Suffolk (a corner of England which is fast turning into a new Padstow)
I mean, quite frankly, fuck that. Who needs THREE BIG homes, especially in the same bloody country?
If she wants that, she should pay tons in tax for the damage she is doing to local lives.
Everyone should bookmark this article
https://www.ft.com/content/1c489fb7-2840-4810-b3e6-a036803edf5c
Who will do the jobs in the future?
How will we pay the increased costs?
Incidentally if anybody says Lee wasn't a dictator, they don't have a clue what they're talking about.
And when one of the country’s two major parties is so close to the brink of the falls, it threatens to pull the entire country over."
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/01/opinion/republicans-threat-america.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1422241080205058058?s=19
https://twitter.com/eu_near/status/1039814633287299073
It must be so hard for Scots to live under the iron-heeled jackboot of English colonial rulers who never ask them what they want. And it's fake news to suggest otherwise.
That niece in Cornwall for example. Why doesn't she move away like all her mates? What is at about them that doesn't apply to her?
A way of soaking the rich outsiders for extra council tax to repair local roads? Most people would jump at that.