Yes, we have now had the Brexit baby. One of the parents is still mightily unhappy about it, as they never wanted the child, the other is still happy and cooing.
You're not though.
You lot are whining about the fact that not everybody loves your ugly bastard child.
Mate, you have issues. Get them sorted professionally. We've tried our best here
At least he's managed with only one name for the last dozen year.
Yes, we have now had the Brexit baby. One of the parents is still mightily unhappy about it, as they never wanted the child, the other is still happy and cooing.
You're not though.
You lot are whining about the fact that not everybody loves your ugly bastard child.
Lol - says the whiner in chief. The irony is quite delicious.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
In which universe do you live? We left as a result of a narrow majority, on a 72% poll, as opposed to a 2-1 majority, admittedly on a lower turnout (65%) when we confirmed membership. What is more, in 1975 information to the public was much more clearly set out. apart from the somewhat hazy idea of 'leaving'
Remainers like me have every right to try and get the situation reversed. And I didn't get 'sent' to a nice school, I didn't have my way to Uni 'padded', and my living standards didn't depend on cheap labour.
You absolutely have the right to get the situation reversed, and have us rejoin, if you can do that democratically
But in the real world, how likely is it? Almost impossible in your lifetime, I would suggest, and perhaps impossible for the far and foreseeable future. The scars of the Brexit vote will be with us for a long time, how many want to reopen them?
Remainers are surely better off campaigning for incremental moves closer to the EU. A new kind of FOM, maybe the SM in the end.
Rejoin is a 50 year long pipe dream
Neither major party is going to put 'rejoin' in their manifesto any time soon. assuming that the next election is in 2024 and the parliament lasts 5 years it'll be 2029 before 'renegotiate' even appears in the Labour manifesto. by the time either is prepared to put 'join EFTA' or 'Rejoin EU' in their manifesto most of the population will have gotten used to the 'new normal' and it'll be a minority pursuit.
I suspect that rejoin won't happen any time soon demographic changes may make it more likely over the next 20 years
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
In which universe do you live? We left as a result of a narrow majority, on a 72% poll, as opposed to a 2-1 majority, admittedly on a lower turnout (65%) when we confirmed membership. What is more, in 1975 information to the public was much more clearly set out. apart from the somewhat hazy idea of 'leaving'
Remainers like me have every right to try and get the situation reversed. And I didn't get 'sent' to a nice school, I didn't have my way to Uni 'padded', and my living standards didn't depend on cheap labour.
You absolutely have the right to get the situation reversed, and have us rejoin, if you can do that democratically
But in the real world, how likely is it? Almost impossible in your lifetime, I would suggest, and perhaps impossible for the far and foreseeable future. The scars of the Brexit vote will be with us for a long time, how many want to reopen them?
Remainers are surely better off campaigning for incremental moves closer to the EU. A new kind of FOM, maybe the SM in the end.
Rejoin is a 50 year long pipe dream
I fear you may be right; that the Single Market would be a good interim target. Something has to be done though, in the sort term, to allow some sort of FOM, without, as is indeed the case in most the EU, access to social security in the short-term for the 'movers'.
Given the attitudes, especially in the Home Office, I suspect we're going to have a few more Windrush type cases before too long.
This approach is also doomed though. Freedom of Movement is what is most cherished by the die hard Remainers while being the topic (reframed as immigration) that is most harmful to the cause when provided to the broader electorate.
Besides, trade regionalism is quickly getting surpassed by trade globalism. CPTPP is clearly going to be the framework for this, given they have already come up with a balance between developed and developing countries, and between countries in Asia, Oceania, North America, South America and, once the UK joins, Europe. Given the US is ultimately ruled by the corporations, it is only a matter of time before they join it. Then the question will be when the EU joins it, or remains an isolated outsider.
On topic, I've tried to look for some numerical or statistical evidence to back up these constant assertions that BoJo is in trouble, or that the Government is in some kind of weak position, and I'm not getting very far.
Looking at average Opinion Polls around 20 months after every General Election since 1979, the following are the average positions:
Now (20 mths after the Dec 2019 Election - Con Gov't, Con lead of around 5-6%, no crossover in polls
20 mths after the Jun 2017 Election - Con-led Coalition, Con lead of 5-6%, occasional crossover, next gov't Con albeit with a new leader.
After the May 2015 Election - Con Government, Con lead of 11-12%, no crossover, next gov't Con-led coalition.
After the May 2010 Election - Con/LD Coalition, Lab lead of 1-2%, some crossover, next gov't Con majority.
After the May 2005 Election - Lab Gov't, Con lead of 5-6%, no crossover, next gov't Con/LD coalition.
After the Jun 2001 Election - Lab Gov't, Lab lead of 5-6%, occasional crossover, next gov't Lab.
After the May 1997 Election - Lab Gov't, Lab lead of 25-30%, next government Lab.
After the April 1992 Election - Con Gov't, Lab lead of 15-20%, next government Lab.
After the June 1987 Election - Con Gov't, Con lead of 1-3%, some crossover, next gov't Con albeit with a new leader.
After the Jun 1983 Election, Con Gov't, Con lead of 2-3%, some crossover, next gov't Con.
After the May 1979 Election, Con Gov't, Lab lead of 9-12%, next gov't Con.
The only part of this that might remotely suggest a change of PM, let alone a change of Government, is around the 2017 election, but this was with a PM who had presided over a needless loss of a majority, exacerbated by the Dementia Tax and lack of delivery of Brexit. Otherwise the picture is clear, there have been exactly zero instances of sitting Governments leading in the opinion polls and going on to lose the next General Election. There are however several instances of the opposition leading in opinion polls and failing to win the next General Election.
Looking at the two clear changes of party at the top of Government is telling - in December 1993, labour led the conservatives by 15-20% and romped home at the next election. In January 2007, the Conservatives led by 5-6% and only got into Government with the Lib Dem's help.
I'm afraid all the evidence at this point, from a statistical point of view, points to another Conservative government led by BoJo. Effectively Mike is betting on a seismic event to change that narrative, which is possible, but not to the point where 15/1 seem ludicrously attractive odds. It is clear that Mike hates BoJo with a passion, but that alone is not enough for anyone to form a betting position. The gradual erosion in leader ratings and polls at this point is commonplace (and often much more pronounced than this), so I'm left wondering what aside from this visceral hatred is driving this belief - I can't find any actual evidence to back it up.
You make a really good, logical case supported by data. The Tories should sail to victory at the next election on the basis of historical precedent.
And yet, there's something about the current government, and in particular Boris, that suggests that it/he could implode, and when the downfall comes it could all end in tears pretty quickly. I don't think you have to 'hate' Boris to recognise the potential he has for such an implosion; indeed, even some of those who rather like him don't see him as the right PM for stable, long-term government. But yes, my comments are subjectively analytical rather than data driven.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
I should have said some, obviously the vast majority of people who voted remain weren't fifth columnists. I was specifically referring to those who relished the idea of the UK becoming part of a European state and would give keys of Westminster to Ursula and Merkel. People like FF34 who is clearly so far IP the EU's arse that when he spits it comes out Ursula's mouth.
There are those that would have us do the same to the United States. I used to live not far from "RAF" Lakenheath. I have always found it odd that those of a Brexity fanaticism who bang on about sovereignty never complain about the US having airbases on our soil. Perhaps that is OK, and maybe we should be grateful they are here, but the truth is we are much more the utensil of the US than we ever were of the EU.
The upside was a KFC in Mildenhall, before anyone had ever heard of KFC.
I often wonder what happened to all those blue Morris Marina pick up trucks the US airman used to drive around in.
Maybe shipped them back when they went home and they are classics now.
Jessica Elgot @jessicaelgot · 1h NEW - big new change to the NHS app meaning it will look at contacts just two days prior to a positive test rather than five
Andrew Bowie MP @AndrewBowie_MP 1. Pretty poor show, utterly unprofessional (although par for the course with our First Minister) and against all standard security considerations if the PM is coming North to announce it on twitter in advance. 2. Even if he is, he's not "visiting", he's Scotland's Prime Minister
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
This is very possibly the stupidest, most deranged thing I've read on here today and that is against some serious competition (@MaxPB).
I am a lower middle class non-university educated finance professional who voted remain not because I'm some sort of self-loathing white male nor an upper middle-class snob, or any other of the ludicrous stereotypes you wheel out above, but because trying to drag the country back into the 1950's seemed crazy to me.
In fact, conversely to your rantings above, as someone with almost no safety net, the idea of engaging in a ludicrous flag-shagging vanity project at the expense of the country's economy seemed a dangerous idea to me. Nothing I've seen so far has changed my mind on that.
Embedded in your invective above is the answer to why Brexit happened in the first place - jealousy and false equivalence. Hatred of wealthier people and associating the membership of the EU with them. Taking the opportunity to lash out at the upper middle-classes, despite the fact that the blow never landed and instead arrived four-square in the stomach of lower middle class aspirers such as myself is about all you've ever achieved. The irony of course is the implied stereotype in your post that no one working class could ever be pro-European show you to be a simultaneous snob and inverted snob.
One of the reasons I joined the Conservatives as an 18 year old was because I believed they would promote aspiration in our society and wanted to drive the country forward rather than fostering the ludicrous and calcified client state New Labour had relied upon.
The reason I left in 2017 was because it became clear that they did want to generate their own client state, one based on a crazy "them and us" culture war in the UK and with the rest of Europe not for anyone's benefit but the Party's own. A personality cult based on Brexit.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
Looks like the cases might start heading up again in about a fortnight (From the first chart) 2nd is more hopeful though.
It's the same data - just different timescale!
The very steep fall from the peak, followed by the sharp shallowing of the curve - whatever it is the virus doesn't follow a classic SEIR model like the planets follow the laws of Newton...
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
This is very possibly the stupidest, most deranged thing I've read on here today and that is against some serious competition (@MaxPB).
I am a lower middle class non-university educated finance professional who voted remain not because I'm some sort of self-loathing white male nor an upper middle-class snob, or any other of the ludicrous stereotypes you wheel out above, but because trying to drag the country back into the 1950's seemed crazy to me.
In fact, conversely to your rantings above, as someone with almost no safety net, the idea of engaging in a ludicrous flag-shagging vanity project at the expense of the country's economy seemed a dangerous idea to me. Nothing I've seen so far has changed my mind on that.
Embedded in your invective above is the answer to why the Brexit happened in the first place - jealousy and false equivalence. Hatred of wealthier people and associating the membership of the EU with them. Taking the opportunity to lash out at the upper middle-classes, despite the fact that the blow never landed and instead arrived four-square in the stomach of lower middle class aspirers such as myself is about all you've ever achieved. The irony of course is the implied stereotype in your post that no one working class could ever be pro-European making you a simultaneous snob and inverted snob.
One of the reasons I joined the Conservatives as an 18 year old was because I believed they would promote aspiration in our society and wanted to drive the country forward rather than fostering the ludicrous and calcified client state New Labour had relied upon.
The reason I left in 2017 was because it became clear that they did want to generate their own client state, one based on a crazy "them and us" culture war in the UK and with the rest of Europe not for anyone's benefit but the Party's own. A personality cult based on Brexit.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
Or, in brief, Fuck, I lost, thanks to those fucking stupid Leavers
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
In which universe do you live? We left as a result of a narrow majority, on a 72% poll, as opposed to a 2-1 majority, admittedly on a lower turnout (65%) when we confirmed membership. What is more, in 1975 information to the public was much more clearly set out. apart from the somewhat hazy idea of 'leaving'
Remainers like me have every right to try and get the situation reversed. And I didn't get 'sent' to a nice school, I didn't have my way to Uni 'padded', and my living standards didn't depend on cheap labour.
72% is a huge turnout. And as much as Remainers obsess about the "merely" million odd vote margin, that is with the "don't rock the boat" types on your side, which is now flipped. You barely get a third of the vote on Rejoin polls. And that will increase over time as we drift away to the rest of the world economically. The electoral distribution is even more devastating for Rejoiners. Neither party is going to abandon its chance to form a government to argue for a new referendum. And if they did it would be Boris thumping majority time again.
You have been completely defeated. You won't get a reversal. The sooner you come to grips with this, the better you will be.
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico The key reason the iSage folk got their Roadmap predictions so wildly, catastrophically wrong at Step 1a, Step 3 & Step 4 is that they didn't attempt any actual modelling at all, AFAICS. I don't know why. Some of them must have been capable of it.
They didn't need to. They already knew the conclusions they wanted to reach. Why risk spoiling it with contrary evidence?
Is it reasonable to expect big issue sellers to have well thought through positions on vaccinations? Can we not just learn to ignore stuff that doesn’t really matter, in the scheme of things?
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
In which universe do you live? We left as a result of a narrow majority, on a 72% poll, as opposed to a 2-1 majority, admittedly on a lower turnout (65%) when we confirmed membership. What is more, in 1975 information to the public was much more clearly set out. apart from the somewhat hazy idea of 'leaving'
Remainers like me have every right to try and get the situation reversed. And I didn't get 'sent' to a nice school, I didn't have my way to Uni 'padded', and my living standards didn't depend on cheap labour.
72% is a huge turnout. And as much as Remainers obsess about the "merely" million odd vote margin, that is with the "don't rock the boat" types on your side, which is now flipped. You barely get a third of the vote on Rejoin polls. And that will increase over time as we drift away to the rest of the world economically. The electoral distribution is even more devastating for Rejoiners. Neither party is going to abandon its chance to form a government to argue for a new referendum. And if they did it would be Boris thumping majority time again.
You have been completely defeated. You won't get a reversal. The sooner you come to grips with this, the better you will be.
To be fair, Old King Cole is one of the much saner PB Remainers. There are plenty of them on here. Indeed I'd say most of them - at least when sober - are now reconciled to Brexit. Like the rest of the country. This can only be for the best.
We had the vote. It was Leave and it was the biggest vote in our history. Thank God we honoured it, in the best traditions of British democracy, anything else would have been unthinkable - and dangerous.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
This is very possibly the stupidest, most deranged thing I've read on here today and that is against some serious competition (@MaxPB).
I am a lower middle class non-university educated finance professional who voted remain not because I'm some sort of self-loathing white male nor an upper middle-class snob, or any other of the ludicrous stereotypes you wheel out above, but because trying to drag the country back into the 1950's seemed crazy to me.
In fact, conversely to your rantings above, as someone with almost no safety net, the idea of engaging in a ludicrous flag-shagging vanity project at the expense of the country's economy seemed a dangerous idea to me. Nothing I've seen so far has changed my mind on that.
Embedded in your invective above is the answer to why the Brexit happened in the first place - jealousy and false equivalence. Hatred of wealthier people and associating the membership of the EU with them. Taking the opportunity to lash out at the upper middle-classes, despite the fact that the blow never landed and instead arrived four-square in the stomach of lower middle class aspirers such as myself is about all you've ever achieved. The irony of course is the implied stereotype in your post that no one working class could ever be pro-European making you a simultaneous snob and inverted snob.
One of the reasons I joined the Conservatives as an 18 year old was because I believed they would promote aspiration in our society and wanted to drive the country forward rather than fostering the ludicrous and calcified client state New Labour had relied upon.
The reason I left in 2017 was because it became clear that they did want to generate their own client state, one based on a crazy "them and us" culture war in the UK and with the rest of Europe not for anyone's benefit but the Party's own. A personality cult based on Brexit.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
Or, in brief, Fuck, I lost, thanks to those fucking stupid Leavers
We all lost, the sooner you accept it the easier it will be try and fix it.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
Well, I guess if upsetting remainers was a core aim, then it has indeed been a pretty resounding success!
I was a remainer. I have moved on. I wish Brexiters would. Imagine if they had lost, the sulking would have been unprecedented.
It seems odd on the face of it, now Brexit is done, quite a hard one too, total victory thus achieved, that many Leavers seem to still need the fight. But it isn't odd really. When you look at their post match analysis, so much of it picks out the humbling of this Construct they call the "Remainer Class" (que?) as being the beauty of it and pretty much the point of it all. In which case you want to keep pissing on these people, don't you. These Remainer Class types. Whoever they are.
It is a bit sad really. Some I guess, @Leon, for example, are trying to convince themselves it was a good idea, when their head tells them it was pointless; others are terrified that one day those ingrates known as "the Young" will stuff it all up and agitate to re-join.
Those leavers currently in their 40s or 50s have this nightmare vision that one grey and dull morning in their dreary old age (when it is more normal to have reactionary views and wear monocles), they will read their Daily Express (tablet version) and realise that we have joined the European United States of Europe. Full fat everything, with a Davros-like Ursula von der Leyen as President For Life.
That is why they are so angry, even though they "won". Either that or they are just miserable gits.
The key question is why are Labour so unpopular? Concentrating on the Tory side of the electoral equation is only half the story. I sense that over the last decade the number of people strongly voting against Labour has increased which benefits the Tories in our electoral system.
Looks like the cases might start heading up again in about a fortnight (From the first chart) 2nd is more hopeful though.
It's the same data - just different timescale!
The very steep fall from the peak, followed by the sharp shallowing of the curve - whatever it is the virus doesn't follow a classic SEIR model like the planets follow the laws of Newton...
Is this a bad time to point out that the planets don't follow the laws of Newton?
To be fair, Newton does a better approximation than the Covid modellers. But then, it's a physicist's wet dream, more or less spherical objects moving in a (more or less) vacuum.
It is a bit sad really. Some I guess, @Leon, for example, are trying to convince themselves it was a good idea, when their head tells them it was pointless; others are terrified that one day those ingrates known as "the Young" will stuff it all up and agitate to re-join.
Those leavers currently in their 40s or 50s have this nightmare vision that one grey and dull morning in their dreary old age (when it is more normal to have reactionary views and wear monocles), they will read their Daily Express (tablet version) and realise that we have joined the European United States of Europe. Full fat everything, with a Davros-like Ursula von der Leyen as President For Life.
That is why they are so angry, even though they "won".
The smarter ones have worked out the 'prize' of Brexit is a flaming bag on their doorstep.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Yes, we have now had the Brexit baby. One of the parents is still mightily unhappy about it, as they never wanted the child, the other is still happy and cooing.
You're not though.
You lot are whining about the fact that not everybody loves your ugly bastard child.
Mate, you have issues. Get them sorted professionally. We've tried our best here
At least he's managed with only one name for the last dozen year.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
Well, I guess if upsetting remainers was a core aim, then it has indeed been a pretty resounding success!
I was a remainer. I have moved on. I wish Brexiters would. Imagine if they had lost, the sulking would have been unprecedented.
It seems odd on the face of it, now Brexit is done, quite a hard one too, total victory thus achieved, that many Leavers seem to still need the fight. But it isn't odd really. When you look at their post match analysis, so much of it picks out the humbling of this Construct they call the "Remainer Class" (que?) as being the beauty of it and pretty much the point of it all. In which case you want to keep pissing on these people, don't you. These Remainer Class types. Whoever they are.
It is a bit sad really. Some I guess, @Leon, for example, are trying to convince themselves it was a good idea, when their head tells them it was pointless; others are terrified that one day those ingrates known as "the Young" will stuff it all up and agitate to re-join.
Those leavers currently in their 40s or 50s have this nightmare vision that one grey and dull morning in their dreary old age (when it is more normal to have reactionary views and wear monocles), they will read their Daily Express (tablet version) and realise that we have joined the European United States of Europe. Full fat everything, with a Davros-like Ursula von der Leyen as President For Life.
That is why they are so angry, even though they "won". Either that or they are just miserable gits.
What troubles me is that I think you actually believe this shite
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
I could have sworn in your previous post you said it was "time to move on". Must be my mistake.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
In which universe do you live? We left as a result of a narrow majority, on a 72% poll, as opposed to a 2-1 majority, admittedly on a lower turnout (65%) when we confirmed membership. What is more, in 1975 information to the public was much more clearly set out. apart from the somewhat hazy idea of 'leaving'
Remainers like me have every right to try and get the situation reversed. And I didn't get 'sent' to a nice school, I didn't have my way to Uni 'padded', and my living standards didn't depend on cheap labour.
72% is a huge turnout. And as much as Remainers obsess about the "merely" million odd vote margin, that is with the "don't rock the boat" types on your side, which is now flipped. You barely get a third of the vote on Rejoin polls. And that will increase over time as we drift away to the rest of the world economically. The electoral distribution is even more devastating for Rejoiners. Neither party is going to abandon its chance to form a government to argue for a new referendum. And if they did it would be Boris thumping majority time again.
You have been completely defeated. You won't get a reversal. The sooner you come to grips with this, the better you will be.
To be fair, Old King Cole is one of the much saner PB Remainers. There are plenty of them on here. Indeed I'd say most of them - at least when sober - are now reconciled to Brexit. Like the rest of the country. This can only be for the best.
We had the vote. It was Leave and it was the biggest vote in our history. Thank God we honoured it, in the best traditions of British democracy, anything else would have been unthinkable - and dangerous.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
In which universe do you live? We left as a result of a narrow majority, on a 72% poll, as opposed to a 2-1 majority, admittedly on a lower turnout (65%) when we confirmed membership. What is more, in 1975 information to the public was much more clearly set out. apart from the somewhat hazy idea of 'leaving'
Remainers like me have every right to try and get the situation reversed. And I didn't get 'sent' to a nice school, I didn't have my way to Uni 'padded', and my living standards didn't depend on cheap labour.
72% is a huge turnout. And as much as Remainers obsess about the "merely" million odd vote margin, that is with the "don't rock the boat" types on your side, which is now flipped. You barely get a third of the vote on Rejoin polls. And that will increase over time as we drift away to the rest of the world economically. The electoral distribution is even more devastating for Rejoiners. Neither party is going to abandon its chance to form a government to argue for a new referendum. And if they did it would be Boris thumping majority time again.
You have been completely defeated. You won't get a reversal. The sooner you come to grips with this, the better you will be.
'Old King Cole' has been completely defeated.
That's the Spirit of Brexit right there, ladeez and gennermen.
Like I say, meaner than a junkyard dog - and about as bright.
Looks like the cases might start heading up again in about a fortnight (From the first chart) 2nd is more hopeful though.
It's the same data - just different timescale!
The very steep fall from the peak, followed by the sharp shallowing of the curve - whatever it is the virus doesn't follow a classic SEIR model like the planets follow the laws of Newton...
Is this a bad time to point out that the planets don't follow the laws of Newton?
To be fair, Newton does a better approximation than the Covid modellers. But then, it's a physicist's wet dream, more or less spherical objects moving in a (more or less) vacuum.
the actual cases, rather than the changes in cases, looks like this
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
Well, I guess if upsetting remainers was a core aim, then it has indeed been a pretty resounding success!
I was a remainer. I have moved on. I wish Brexiters would. Imagine if they had lost, the sulking would have been unprecedented.
It seems odd on the face of it, now Brexit is done, quite a hard one too, total victory thus achieved, that many Leavers seem to still need the fight. But it isn't odd really. When you look at their post match analysis, so much of it picks out the humbling of this Construct they call the "Remainer Class" (que?) as being the beauty of it and pretty much the point of it all. In which case you want to keep pissing on these people, don't you. These Remainer Class types. Whoever they are.
It is a bit sad really. Some I guess, @Leon, for example, are trying to convince themselves it was a good idea, when their head tells them it was pointless; others are terrified that one day those ingrates known as "the Young" will stuff it all up and agitate to re-join.
Those leavers currently in their 40s or 50s have this nightmare vision that one grey and dull morning in their dreary old age (when it is more normal to have reactionary views and wear monocles), they will read their Daily Express (tablet version) and realise that we have joined the European United States of Europe. Full fat everything, with a Davros-like Ursula von der Leyen as President For Life.
That is why they are so angry, even though they "won". Either that or they are just miserable gits.
I wouldn't underestimate the 'miserable git' aspect if I were you. One can overthink things.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
Well, I guess if upsetting remainers was a core aim, then it has indeed been a pretty resounding success!
I was a remainer. I have moved on. I wish Brexiters would. Imagine if they had lost, the sulking would have been unprecedented.
It seems odd on the face of it, now Brexit is done, quite a hard one too, total victory thus achieved, that many Leavers seem to still need the fight. But it isn't odd really. When you look at their post match analysis, so much of it picks out the humbling of this Construct they call the "Remainer Class" (que?) as being the beauty of it and pretty much the point of it all. In which case you want to keep pissing on these people, don't you. These Remainer Class types. Whoever they are.
It is a bit sad really. Some I guess, @Leon, for example, are trying to convince themselves it was a good idea, when their head tells them it was pointless; others are terrified that one day those ingrates known as "the Young" will stuff it all up and agitate to re-join.
Those leavers currently in their 40s or 50s have this nightmare vision that one grey and dull morning in their dreary old age (when it is more normal to have reactionary views and wear monocles), they will read their Daily Express (tablet version) and realise that we have joined the European United States of Europe. Full fat everything, with a Davros-like Ursula von der Leyen as President For Life.
That is why they are so angry, even though they "won". Either that or they are just miserable gits.
What troubles me is that I think you actually believe this shite
May I suggest somebody who has spent much of the last five months wittering about alien contacts is not in a strong position to make that remark?
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
In which universe do you live? We left as a result of a narrow majority, on a 72% poll, as opposed to a 2-1 majority, admittedly on a lower turnout (65%) when we confirmed membership. What is more, in 1975 information to the public was much more clearly set out. apart from the somewhat hazy idea of 'leaving'
Remainers like me have every right to try and get the situation reversed. And I didn't get 'sent' to a nice school, I didn't have my way to Uni 'padded', and my living standards didn't depend on cheap labour.
72% is a huge turnout. And as much as Remainers obsess about the "merely" million odd vote margin, that is with the "don't rock the boat" types on your side, which is now flipped. You barely get a third of the vote on Rejoin polls. And that will increase over time as we drift away to the rest of the world economically. The electoral distribution is even more devastating for Rejoiners. Neither party is going to abandon its chance to form a government to argue for a new referendum. And if they did it would be Boris thumping majority time again.
You have been completely defeated. You won't get a reversal. The sooner you come to grips with this, the better you will be.
To be fair, Old King Cole is one of the much saner PB Remainers. There are plenty of them on here. Indeed I'd say most of them - at least when sober - are now reconciled to Brexit. Like the rest of the country. This can only be for the best.
We had the vote. It was Leave and it was the biggest vote in our history. Thank God we honoured it, in the best traditions of British democracy, anything else would have been unthinkable - and dangerous.
Time to move on.
You don't want to though do you?
Actually, I really really do. Not because I think Brexit is some terrible error and I am embarrassed (it takes a lot more than that to embarrass me, trust me), but because endless division and rancour over something already done, and not about to be reversed this decade, or the next, is pointless, boring and damaging.
All we do is rehearse the same tedious arguments, then Scott XP goes mad and compares Boris to Goebbels, and then we stop, and then a day or two later we start over again. Whatever.
I will make one admission, sometimes I DO invoke Brexit when I am bored - I mention it solely to annoy people like Scott and you and the other PB Remoaners, in the same way a small boy likes tormenting a mad ape at a zoo with a peashooter - you always react so insanely it is hilarious
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
Well, I guess if upsetting remainers was a core aim, then it has indeed been a pretty resounding success!
I was a remainer. I have moved on. I wish Brexiters would. Imagine if they had lost, the sulking would have been unprecedented.
It seems odd on the face of it, now Brexit is done, quite a hard one too, total victory thus achieved, that many Leavers seem to still need the fight. But it isn't odd really. When you look at their post match analysis, so much of it picks out the humbling of this Construct they call the "Remainer Class" (que?) as being the beauty of it and pretty much the point of it all. In which case you want to keep pissing on these people, don't you. These Remainer Class types. Whoever they are.
It is a bit sad really. Some I guess, @Leon, for example, are trying to convince themselves it was a good idea, when their head tells them it was pointless; others are terrified that one day those ingrates known as "the Young" will stuff it all up and agitate to re-join.
Those leavers currently in their 40s or 50s have this nightmare vision that one grey and dull morning in their dreary old age (when it is more normal to have reactionary views and wear monocles), they will read their Daily Express (tablet version) and realise that we have joined the European United States of Europe. Full fat everything, with a Davros-like Ursula von der Leyen as President For Life.
That is why they are so angry, even though they "won". Either that or they are just miserable gits.
What troubles me is that I think you actually believe this shite
Only the first para. You have admitted in previous posts and your previous incarnations as "the Doctor". You know it was all pointless. I know it was pointless. I don't see any point in turning the clock back though, and those leavers (perhaps most of them) who thought Brexit really would turn the clock back (to a nice whiter than white 1955) are going to be very disappointed. They probably already are. Hence the anger!
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
Well, I guess if upsetting remainers was a core aim, then it has indeed been a pretty resounding success!
I was a remainer. I have moved on. I wish Brexiters would. Imagine if they had lost, the sulking would have been unprecedented.
It seems odd on the face of it, now Brexit is done, quite a hard one too, total victory thus achieved, that many Leavers seem to still need the fight. But it isn't odd really. When you look at their post match analysis, so much of it picks out the humbling of this Construct they call the "Remainer Class" (que?) as being the beauty of it and pretty much the point of it all. In which case you want to keep pissing on these people, don't you. These Remainer Class types. Whoever they are.
It is a bit sad really. Some I guess, @Leon, for example, are trying to convince themselves it was a good idea, when their head tells them it was pointless; others are terrified that one day those ingrates known as "the Young" will stuff it all up and agitate to re-join.
Those leavers currently in their 40s or 50s have this nightmare vision that one grey and dull morning in their dreary old age (when it is more normal to have reactionary views and wear monocles), they will read their Daily Express (tablet version) and realise that we have joined the European United States of Europe. Full fat everything, with a Davros-like Ursula von der Leyen as President For Life.
That is why they are so angry, even though they "won". Either that or they are just miserable gits.
What troubles me is that I think you actually believe this shite
May I suggest somebody who has spent much of the last five months wittering about alien contacts is not in a strong position to make that remark?
Interestingly, my lunch partner told me from some very well connected friends of his, that higher US government intel/military concerns over UAPs are quite real.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
In which universe do you live? We left as a result of a narrow majority, on a 72% poll, as opposed to a 2-1 majority, admittedly on a lower turnout (65%) when we confirmed membership. What is more, in 1975 information to the public was much more clearly set out. apart from the somewhat hazy idea of 'leaving'
Remainers like me have every right to try and get the situation reversed. And I didn't get 'sent' to a nice school, I didn't have my way to Uni 'padded', and my living standards didn't depend on cheap labour.
72% is a huge turnout. And as much as Remainers obsess about the "merely" million odd vote margin, that is with the "don't rock the boat" types on your side, which is now flipped. You barely get a third of the vote on Rejoin polls. And that will increase over time as we drift away to the rest of the world economically. The electoral distribution is even more devastating for Rejoiners. Neither party is going to abandon its chance to form a government to argue for a new referendum. And if they did it would be Boris thumping majority time again.
You have been completely defeated. You won't get a reversal. The sooner you come to grips with this, the better you will be.
To be fair, Old King Cole is one of the much saner PB Remainers. There are plenty of them on here. Indeed I'd say most of them - at least when sober - are now reconciled to Brexit. Like the rest of the country. This can only be for the best.
We had the vote. It was Leave and it was the biggest vote in our history. Thank God we honoured it, in the best traditions of British democracy, anything else would have been unthinkable - and dangerous.
Time to move on.
You don't want to though do you?
Actually, I really really do. Not because I think Brexit is some terrible error and I am embarrassed (it takes a lot more than that to embarrass me, trust me), but because endless division and rancour over something already done, and not about to be reversed this decade, or the next, is pointless, boring and damaging.
All we do is rehearse the same tedious arguments, then Scott XP goes mad and compares Boris to Goebbels, and then we stop, and then a day or two later we start over again. Whatever.
I will make one admission, sometimes I DO invoke Brexit when I am bored - I mention it solely to annoy people like Scott and you and the other PB Remoaners, in the same way a small boy likes tormenting a mad ape at a zoo with a peashooter - you always react so insanely it is hilarious
But it is juvenile of me. I shall try and desist
You don't annoy me Leon, I find it funny. Why do you think I take the piss? The whole Brexit mindset is one to take the piss out of. It IS funny. It is so parochial and silly, and you know it.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Yep. Brexit is essentially about the humbling of social & financial elites (exactly as you explain here) but what's strange is that almost all its leading proponents in public life are reactionary right wing Conservatives. It seems these chaps have all got the wrong end of the stick. I know when it comes to politics that Right doesn't equal Bright, but still, it's a puzzle.
Brexit was also a massive great Fuck You from Provincial Britain to London. You can't blame the yokels, they spent 30 years watching property owning Londoners get insanely wealthy, through no personal merit, while also enjoying all the restaurants, bars, girls, boys, fun, parties, better weather and nice shiny new trains
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
In which universe do you live? We left as a result of a narrow majority, on a 72% poll, as opposed to a 2-1 majority, admittedly on a lower turnout (65%) when we confirmed membership. What is more, in 1975 information to the public was much more clearly set out. apart from the somewhat hazy idea of 'leaving'
Remainers like me have every right to try and get the situation reversed. And I didn't get 'sent' to a nice school, I didn't have my way to Uni 'padded', and my living standards didn't depend on cheap labour.
72% is a huge turnout. And as much as Remainers obsess about the "merely" million odd vote margin, that is with the "don't rock the boat" types on your side, which is now flipped. You barely get a third of the vote on Rejoin polls. And that will increase over time as we drift away to the rest of the world economically. The electoral distribution is even more devastating for Rejoiners. Neither party is going to abandon its chance to form a government to argue for a new referendum. And if they did it would be Boris thumping majority time again.
You have been completely defeated. You won't get a reversal. The sooner you come to grips with this, the better you will be.
To be fair, Old King Cole is one of the much saner PB Remainers. There are plenty of them on here. Indeed I'd say most of them - at least when sober - are now reconciled to Brexit. Like the rest of the country. This can only be for the best.
We had the vote. It was Leave and it was the biggest vote in our history. Thank God we honoured it, in the best traditions of British democracy, anything else would have been unthinkable - and dangerous.
Time to move on.
You don't want to though do you?
Actually, I really really do. Not because I think Brexit is some terrible error and I am embarrassed (it takes a lot more than that to embarrass me, trust me), but because endless division and rancour over something already done, and not about to be reversed this decade, or the next, is pointless, boring and damaging.
All we do is rehearse the same tedious arguments, then Scott XP goes mad and compares Boris to Goebbels, and then we stop, and then a day or two later we start over again. Whatever.
I will make one admission, sometimes I DO invoke Brexit when I am bored - I mention it solely to annoy people like Scott and you and the other PB Remoaners, in the same way a small boy likes tormenting a mad ape at a zoo with a peashooter - you always react so insanely it is hilarious
But it is juvenile of me. I shall try and desist
You don't annoy me Leon, I find it funny. Why do you think I take the piss? The whole Brexit mindset is one to take the piss out of. It IS funny. It is so parochial and silly, and you know it.
Can I write a header comparing Boris to D'Annunzio? - the whole Goebbels/Hitler/Trump thing is getting so stale....
Keir Starmer’s net approval rating stands remains at -15%, the same result as last week’s lowest net approval rating to date for Starmer. 40% disapprove of Keir Starmer’s job performance (no change), while 25% approve (no change). Meanwhile, 31% neither approve nor disapprove of Starmer’s job performance (up 2%).
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
Well, I guess if upsetting remainers was a core aim, then it has indeed been a pretty resounding success!
I was a remainer. I have moved on. I wish Brexiters would. Imagine if they had lost, the sulking would have been unprecedented.
It seems odd on the face of it, now Brexit is done, quite a hard one too, total victory thus achieved, that many Leavers seem to still need the fight. But it isn't odd really. When you look at their post match analysis, so much of it picks out the humbling of this Construct they call the "Remainer Class" (que?) as being the beauty of it and pretty much the point of it all. In which case you want to keep pissing on these people, don't you. These Remainer Class types. Whoever they are.
It is a bit sad really. Some I guess, @Leon, for example, are trying to convince themselves it was a good idea, when their head tells them it was pointless; others are terrified that one day those ingrates known as "the Young" will stuff it all up and agitate to re-join.
Those leavers currently in their 40s or 50s have this nightmare vision that one grey and dull morning in their dreary old age (when it is more normal to have reactionary views and wear monocles), they will read their Daily Express (tablet version) and realise that we have joined the European United States of Europe. Full fat everything, with a Davros-like Ursula von der Leyen as President For Life.
That is why they are so angry, even though they "won". Either that or they are just miserable gits.
What troubles me is that I think you actually believe this shite
May I suggest somebody who has spent much of the last five months wittering about alien contacts is not in a strong position to make that remark?
Interestingly, my lunch partner told me from some very well connected friends of his, that higher US government intel/military concerns over UAPs are quite real.
Boris Johnson continues to lead over Keir Starmer as being the one who best embodies the following descriptions: ‘can build a strong economy’ (44% to 28%), ‘stands up for the interests of the United Kingdom’ (43% to 28%), ‘knows how to get things done’ (42% to 27%), and ‘can tackle the coronavirus pandemic’ (42% to 26%).
Keir Starmer continues to lead only when it comes to best embodying the description of ‘being in good physical and mental health’ (36% to 29%).
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
Well, I guess if upsetting remainers was a core aim, then it has indeed been a pretty resounding success!
I was a remainer. I have moved on. I wish Brexiters would. Imagine if they had lost, the sulking would have been unprecedented.
It seems odd on the face of it, now Brexit is done, quite a hard one too, total victory thus achieved, that many Leavers seem to still need the fight. But it isn't odd really. When you look at their post match analysis, so much of it picks out the humbling of this Construct they call the "Remainer Class" (que?) as being the beauty of it and pretty much the point of it all. In which case you want to keep pissing on these people, don't you. These Remainer Class types. Whoever they are.
It is a bit sad really. Some I guess, @Leon, for example, are trying to convince themselves it was a good idea, when their head tells them it was pointless; others are terrified that one day those ingrates known as "the Young" will stuff it all up and agitate to re-join.
Those leavers currently in their 40s or 50s have this nightmare vision that one grey and dull morning in their dreary old age (when it is more normal to have reactionary views and wear monocles), they will read their Daily Express (tablet version) and realise that we have joined the European United States of Europe. Full fat everything, with a Davros-like Ursula von der Leyen as President For Life.
That is why they are so angry, even though they "won". Either that or they are just miserable gits.
What troubles me is that I think you actually believe this shite
May I suggest somebody who has spent much of the last five months wittering about alien contacts is not in a strong position to make that remark?
Interestingly, my lunch partner told me from some very well connected friends of his, that higher US government intel/military concerns over UAPs are quite real.
Just imagine when we join the Federation of Galactic Planets without a referendum. After all have you seen the agricultural subsidies on Planet Zog? And all those Vulcans will want to come and settle here too.
The Brexiters on here seem to think it was worthwhile in order to stick it to the “elite”. But by elite they pretty much mean anyone paying taxes.
Leavers are preponderantly retired, jobless, or so wealthy that ordinary rules don’t apply.
In the real world, we have voted ourselves to be the sick man of Europe.
Productivity has stagnated since 2010. GDP is now falling behind our G7 peers. Foreign Direct Investment is down by a third.
Brexit may be “worth it in 50 years” - copyright Jacob Rees Mogg - but in the meantime we are condemned to watch living standards slip behind that of our neighbours.
Remainers remain angry because they are trapped on an island with spiteful, dyspeptic culture warriors. Brexiters remain angry because, subconsciously even the more stupid realise they sold the country down the river.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Boris Johnson continues to lead over Keir Starmer as being the one who best embodies the following descriptions: ‘can build a strong economy’ (44% to 28%), ‘stands up for the interests of the United Kingdom’ (43% to 28%), ‘knows how to get things done’ (42% to 27%), and ‘can tackle the coronavirus pandemic’ (42% to 26%).
Keir Starmer continues to lead only when it comes to best embodying the description of ‘being in good physical and mental health’ (36% to 29%).
Starmer beats Boris on the "tells the truth" metric by.... just one percent?????
That's absolutely appalling (for Labour), given that Starmer loses nearly all the other tests. How can that be? I wonder if it is the legacy of Starmer's stupid position favouring a second referendum.
If that is the case then they need to be brutal, dump him, and get a Leaver in as leader. Or at least a Remainer who did NOT try and reverse the vote
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Satisfaction with EU membership has risen as people have looked on with horror at British self-sabotage.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Satisfaction with EU membership has risen as people have looked on with horror at British self-sabotage.
Perhaps, but I am going to bet it is nowhere near 450M, which would be over 100% of the population (including infants).
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
In which universe do you live? We left as a result of a narrow majority, on a 72% poll, as opposed to a 2-1 majority, admittedly on a lower turnout (65%) when we confirmed membership. What is more, in 1975 information to the public was much more clearly set out. apart from the somewhat hazy idea of 'leaving'
Remainers like me have every right to try and get the situation reversed. And I didn't get 'sent' to a nice school, I didn't have my way to Uni 'padded', and my living standards didn't depend on cheap labour.
72% is a huge turnout. And as much as Remainers obsess about the "merely" million odd vote margin, that is with the "don't rock the boat" types on your side, which is now flipped. You barely get a third of the vote on Rejoin polls. And that will increase over time as we drift away to the rest of the world economically. The electoral distribution is even more devastating for Rejoiners. Neither party is going to abandon its chance to form a government to argue for a new referendum. And if they did it would be Boris thumping majority time again.
You have been completely defeated. You won't get a reversal. The sooner you come to grips with this, the better you will be.
To be fair, Old King Cole is one of the much saner PB Remainers. There are plenty of them on here. Indeed I'd say most of them - at least when sober - are now reconciled to Brexit. Like the rest of the country. This can only be for the best.
We had the vote. It was Leave and it was the biggest vote in our history. Thank God we honoured it, in the best traditions of British democracy, anything else would have been unthinkable - and dangerous.
Time to move on.
You don't want to though do you?
Actually, I really really do. Not because I think Brexit is some terrible error and I am embarrassed (it takes a lot more than that to embarrass me, trust me), but because endless division and rancour over something already done, and not about to be reversed this decade, or the next, is pointless, boring and damaging.
All we do is rehearse the same tedious arguments, then Scott XP goes mad and compares Boris to Goebbels, and then we stop, and then a day or two later we start over again. Whatever.
I will make one admission, sometimes I DO invoke Brexit when I am bored - I mention it solely to annoy people like Scott and you and the other PB Remoaners, in the same way a small boy likes tormenting a mad ape at a zoo with a peashooter - you always react so insanely it is hilarious
But it is juvenile of me. I shall try and desist
You don't annoy me Leon, I find it funny. Why do you think I take the piss? The whole Brexit mindset is one to take the piss out of. It IS funny. It is so parochial and silly, and you know it.
Can I write a header comparing Boris to D'Annunzio? - the whole Goebbels/Hitler/Trump thing is getting so stale....
I don't think it is fair to compare Goebbels/Hitler/Trump to Boris Johnson. The first three are repulsive but serious (OK Trump maybe not). I think Mussolini (who has been compared to Trump) is probably closest to Johnson. I am actually trying to think of historical figures that are more ludicrous than Johnson and am really struggling....
Must have been his handling of that difficult umbrella issue.
You have to laugh , given the thread header. OGH knows that Con Home polls have about a much value as horse dung given the people that the inhabit the site.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
There's a whole new generation, about 16-22, wearing absolutely INSANE clothes. Like cloth caps with kilts and Kenyan ponchos and goggles.
Huge bell bottom trousers plus a sporran then a tabard over a cerise silk shirt, and extreme BDSM facial jewellery
It's brilliant. Long live the Young
Have you been drinking?
No, not by my standards. Two glasses of white with some delicious bream, caponata and salsa verde
Honestly this is a thing. I have other friends reporting the same. I know it is a thing because I have friends in their mid 20s who are utterly mystified by it - always a good sign of a youth revolution in the making, it is so new the 25 year olds don't understand the 18 year olds
Boris Johnson continues to lead over Keir Starmer as being the one who best embodies the following descriptions: ‘can build a strong economy’ (44% to 28%), ‘stands up for the interests of the United Kingdom’ (43% to 28%), ‘knows how to get things done’ (42% to 27%), and ‘can tackle the coronavirus pandemic’ (42% to 26%).
Keir Starmer continues to lead only when it comes to best embodying the description of ‘being in good physical and mental health’ (36% to 29%).
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Satisfaction with EU membership has risen as people have looked on with horror at British self-sabotage.
Perhaps, but I am going to bet it is nowhere near 450M, which would be over 100% of the population (including infants).
But nobody really claimed that, did they. I took his point to be that there are simply no significant anti-EU movements in the member countries.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Satisfaction with EU membership has risen as people have looked on with horror at British self-sabotage.
Perhaps, but I am going to bet it is nowhere near 450M, which would be over 100% of the population (including infants).
But nobody really claimed that, did they. I took his point to be that there are simply no significant anti-EU movements in the member countries.
They did, the quote is right there at the base of this blockquote.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
The last time I looked support was down by about 10-20 points to less than half.
I doubt that I can hoick it out of the depths of the europa.int website, however.
Boris Johnson continues to lead over Keir Starmer as being the one who best embodies the following descriptions: ‘can build a strong economy’ (44% to 28%), ‘stands up for the interests of the United Kingdom’ (43% to 28%), ‘knows how to get things done’ (42% to 27%), and ‘can tackle the coronavirus pandemic’ (42% to 26%).
Keir Starmer continues to lead only when it comes to best embodying the description of ‘being in good physical and mental health’ (36% to 29%).
Am I reading this correctly that Boris is 26% on telling the truth to Starmer on only 27%, just 1% difference
That needs some explanation by all those accusing Boris of being economical with the truth
There are three types of people in this country at the moment. 1) people who believe everything Boris Johnson says is the truth 2) people who believe everything Boris Johnson says is a lie 3) the rest of us who don't really care (they're all politicians anyway).
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Satisfaction with EU membership has risen as people have looked on with horror at British self-sabotage.
Perhaps, but I am going to bet it is nowhere near 450M, which would be over 100% of the population (including infants).
But nobody really claimed that, did they. I took his point to be that there are simply no significant anti-EU movements in the member countries.
Yes, he really claimed that
"Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership"
Just a lie. But then, that's what Remainers do. Lie
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Satisfaction with EU membership has risen as people have looked on with horror at British self-sabotage.
You do need to take that with a massive pinch of salt. Brexit came along at a convenient time for the EU because it gave them a common enemy and the dynamics of the negotiations while Brexit was a theoretical construct lent themselves to making fun of the Brits, but this doesn't reflect the reality now that we are outside the institutions.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
This is very possibly the stupidest, most deranged thing I've read on here today and that is against some serious competition (@MaxPB).
I am a lower middle class non-university educated finance professional who voted remain not because I'm some sort of self-loathing white male nor an upper middle-class snob, or any other of the ludicrous stereotypes you wheel out above, but because trying to drag the country back into the 1950's seemed crazy to me.
In fact, conversely to your rantings above, as someone with almost no safety net, the idea of engaging in a ludicrous flag-shagging vanity project at the expense of the country's economy seemed a dangerous idea to me. Nothing I've seen so far has changed my mind on that.
Embedded in your invective above is the answer to why Brexit happened in the first place - jealousy and false equivalence. Hatred of wealthier people and associating the membership of the EU with them. Taking the opportunity to lash out at the upper middle-classes, despite the fact that the blow never landed and instead arrived four-square in the stomach of lower middle class aspirers such as myself is about all you've ever achieved. The irony of course is the implied stereotype in your post that no one working class could ever be pro-European show you to be a simultaneous snob and inverted snob.
One of the reasons I joined the Conservatives as an 18 year old was because I believed they would promote aspiration in our society and wanted to drive the country forward rather than fostering the ludicrous and calcified client state New Labour had relied upon.
The reason I left in 2017 was because it became clear that they did want to generate their own client state, one based on a crazy "them and us" culture war in the UK and with the rest of Europe not for anyone's benefit but the Party's own. A personality cult based on Brexit.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
In which universe do you live? We left as a result of a narrow majority, on a 72% poll, as opposed to a 2-1 majority, admittedly on a lower turnout (65%) when we confirmed membership. What is more, in 1975 information to the public was much more clearly set out. apart from the somewhat hazy idea of 'leaving'
Remainers like me have every right to try and get the situation reversed. And I didn't get 'sent' to a nice school, I didn't have my way to Uni 'padded', and my living standards didn't depend on cheap labour.
72% is a huge turnout. And as much as Remainers obsess about the "merely" million odd vote margin, that is with the "don't rock the boat" types on your side, which is now flipped. You barely get a third of the vote on Rejoin polls. And that will increase over time as we drift away to the rest of the world economically. The electoral distribution is even more devastating for Rejoiners. Neither party is going to abandon its chance to form a government to argue for a new referendum. And if they did it would be Boris thumping majority time again.
You have been completely defeated. You won't get a reversal. The sooner you come to grips with this, the better you will be.
To be fair, Old King Cole is one of the much saner PB Remainers. There are plenty of them on here. Indeed I'd say most of them - at least when sober - are now reconciled to Brexit. Like the rest of the country. This can only be for the best.
We had the vote. It was Leave and it was the biggest vote in our history. Thank God we honoured it, in the best traditions of British democracy, anything else would have been unthinkable - and dangerous.
Time to move on.
You don't want to though do you?
Actually, I really really do. Not because I think Brexit is some terrible error and I am embarrassed (it takes a lot more than that to embarrass me, trust me), but because endless division and rancour over something already done, and not about to be reversed this decade, or the next, is pointless, boring and damaging.
All we do is rehearse the same tedious arguments, then Scott XP goes mad and compares Boris to Goebbels, and then we stop, and then a day or two later we start over again. Whatever.
I will make one admission, sometimes I DO invoke Brexit when I am bored - I mention it solely to annoy people like Scott and you and the other PB Remoaners, in the same way a small boy likes tormenting a mad ape at a zoo with a peashooter - you always react so insanely it is hilarious
But it is juvenile of me. I shall try and desist
You don't annoy me Leon, I find it funny. Why do you think I take the piss? The whole Brexit mindset is one to take the piss out of. It IS funny. It is so parochial and silly, and you know it.
Can I write a header comparing Boris to D'Annunzio? - the whole Goebbels/Hitler/Trump thing is getting so stale....
I don't think Mr Johnson flew combat missions over Baghdad or even Brussels.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Satisfaction with EU membership has risen as people have looked on with horror at British self-sabotage.
Perhaps, but I am going to bet it is nowhere near 450M, which would be over 100% of the population (including infants).
But nobody really claimed that, did they. I took his point to be that there are simply no significant anti-EU movements in the member countries.
That is essentially what I meant and actually what I should have said.
I would elaborate, based on my knowledge of the rest of Europe (comparatively narrow as that is) that unhappiness with the EU tends to be directed towards public policy forums (of which there are many) and genuine attempts to improve the project. In the UK it was weaponised to sell papers and achieve tax benefits for the already very rich.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
450M other Europeans are "perfectly content with their EU membership"? Going to need a citation on that one.
Based on this latest survey (albeit for 2020) it seems that Europeans who don't live in the UK want to be more European following the Covid Crisis.
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Your post suggested that near 100% of the EU population was content with EU membership. Without even opening that link I know this statement is incorrect.
So you think that there is large scale anti-EU opinion in continental Europe? Do you know anyone who lives in Europe by the way?
I am simply asking for a citation for the claim that "nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership". I'm not sure there is one, actually.
Satisfaction with EU membership has risen as people have looked on with horror at British self-sabotage.
You do need to take that with a massive pinch of salt. Brexit came along at a convenient time for the EU because it gave them a common enemy and the dynamics of the negotiations while Brexit was a theoretical construct lent themselves to making fun of the Brits, but this doesn't reflect the reality now that we are outside the institutions.
I don’t take it with a pinch of salt. It’s a simple truth, support for the EU rise because of Brexit.
This says nothing about the merit of the EU, it’s just a polling fact.
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
In which universe do you live? We left as a result of a narrow majority, on a 72% poll, as opposed to a 2-1 majority, admittedly on a lower turnout (65%) when we confirmed membership. What is more, in 1975 information to the public was much more clearly set out. apart from the somewhat hazy idea of 'leaving'
Remainers like me have every right to try and get the situation reversed. And I didn't get 'sent' to a nice school, I didn't have my way to Uni 'padded', and my living standards didn't depend on cheap labour.
72% is a huge turnout. And as much as Remainers obsess about the "merely" million odd vote margin, that is with the "don't rock the boat" types on your side, which is now flipped. You barely get a third of the vote on Rejoin polls. And that will increase over time as we drift away to the rest of the world economically. The electoral distribution is even more devastating for Rejoiners. Neither party is going to abandon its chance to form a government to argue for a new referendum. And if they did it would be Boris thumping majority time again.
You have been completely defeated. You won't get a reversal. The sooner you come to grips with this, the better you will be.
To be fair, Old King Cole is one of the much saner PB Remainers. There are plenty of them on here. Indeed I'd say most of them - at least when sober - are now reconciled to Brexit. Like the rest of the country. This can only be for the best.
We had the vote. It was Leave and it was the biggest vote in our history. Thank God we honoured it, in the best traditions of British democracy, anything else would have been unthinkable - and dangerous.
Time to move on.
You don't want to though do you?
Actually, I really really do. Not because I think Brexit is some terrible error and I am embarrassed (it takes a lot more than that to embarrass me, trust me), but because endless division and rancour over something already done, and not about to be reversed this decade, or the next, is pointless, boring and damaging.
All we do is rehearse the same tedious arguments, then Scott XP goes mad and compares Boris to Goebbels, and then we stop, and then a day or two later we start over again. Whatever.
I will make one admission, sometimes I DO invoke Brexit when I am bored - I mention it solely to annoy people like Scott and you and the other PB Remoaners, in the same way a small boy likes tormenting a mad ape at a zoo with a peashooter - you always react so insanely it is hilarious
But it is juvenile of me. I shall try and desist
You don't annoy me Leon, I find it funny. Why do you think I take the piss? The whole Brexit mindset is one to take the piss out of. It IS funny. It is so parochial and silly, and you know it.
Can I write a header comparing Boris to D'Annunzio? - the whole Goebbels/Hitler/Trump thing is getting so stale....
I don't think Mr Johnson flew combat missions over Baghdad or even Brussels.
Remainers like me have every right to try and get the situation reversed.
Well of course you do.
But the EU has already changed in unattractive ways since 2016.
In a rejoin campaign, you'd have to explain why you wanted to pool sovereignty with strange authoritarian countries like Poland, Hungary and Slovenia. (How would you campaign for ever closer union with the anti-LGBT Poland for example?).
Then there is France where Macron's anti-muslim rhetoric is now so extreme, that if you substituted the word "jews" for muslims, you'd think you were in Vichy France. And that's before we get to Le Pen.
And Italy, where La Lega and the more extreme Brothers of Italy have an unassailable polling lead, which means when Draghi's technocrat govt ends, they're going far-right.
And Austria where the far-right was in coalition with Sebastian Kurtz for a couple of years.
The EU is close to a Qualified Majority of dodgy states, and if we were in the EU, that qualified majority could impose laws on us.
How would remainers argue that this was a good thing? How would remainers persuade people that it's actually attractive to pool sovereignty with dodgy countries?
Have remainers even thought about this, or are you blissfully imagining that everything is still as it was in the 1990's?
The 88% net favourability rating for Liz Truss is as preposterous as the woman herself. A reflection of the Conservative Party and the times we live in, I guess.
Your bitterness over the UK having an independent trade policy is one of the best rewards of Brexit. Thank you.
Hate to ask, but if FF43's (alleged) bitterness really is one of the best rewards of Brexit, was it really worth all the hassle? What are the other top five say, for context?
It's probably spaces 1-3, personally along with the bitterness from other EU supporting fifth columnists.
If "remainers" are fifth columnists for the EU are Leavers fifth columnists for Putin? Which would be worse? I think as Brexit is now "done" people trading insults over it just make themselves look a little silly. There are many on both sides of the argument who have done service for their country, and often much more than the people from the opposing side that suggest they are "traitors" perhaps?
The trouble is that, for some, this was their Great Patriotic War to save democracy. Not all, but some. And rather than being saluted for their sacrifices in victory, they are being moaned at or- worse- ignored.
For while, my theory has been that the internal logic of Brexit makes most sense to those born in the 50's and 60's. The most Eurosceptic generation in both 1975 and 2016. Always lived in the shadow of the generation who actually experienced WW2. Too old to see the benefits of a continent without borders for work and play as anything other than a dangerous novelty.
And deep down, some of them suspect that it will all get reversed the minute their backs are turned. Their great achievement down the swannee. And slowly, by a thousand accommodations, chips and cuts, they're probably right.
Johnson understandably won in 2019 on "Brexit is in Peril. Defend it with All Your Might." Unless things change in a way that they haven't so far, there will come a point where the considered response of the public is "Brexit is in Peril? Good".
Meanwhile, time passes.
Although I think Brexit was the biggest foreign policy folly since Suez, I think it would be a mistake to try and re-join. That said I can't help wondering whether in my dotage I will have a good old titter at all those Brexity Col. Blimps when re do regain membership. It will be very funny.
What is funny is how Remainers always insist their vindication is coming. No matter the evidence, the great moment when the up-to-now foolish public suddenly turns around and embraces their Europhile betters. Not only will they regret the decision that has been made, they will actually seek to go back to an even worse membership status than we had before. And to do that when the EU is even more integrated in the years and decades to come. When the UK's economy and trade profile has been restructured completely and status quo bias works in the opposite direction. When the EU is an even smaller share of the world economy than ever.
I suppose it is the only way they can psychologically deal with it. As an upper middle class professional group, they have never really learnt how to accept defeat. They got sent to nice schools, had the way padded to nice universities, and went into nice jobs, where their living standards were padded by the benefits of cheap immigrant and outsourced labour. And they had every election go their way until 2016.
Then they lost, and have been looking for cope ever since. Part of that is the religious certainty that deliverance will arrive in the end. Part of that is the need to assure each other of their moral superiority, with snide comments about how ghastily white, middle aged and - horrors of horrors - *British* those damn Brexiters are. Don't they know how culturally superior Provence and Tuscany are?
Your second paragraph is absurd. Your stereotype applies, if at all, to a small proportion of the 48% who voted to remain, and is no better than the reverse stereotype of 'thick leavers'. And as one of the unprivileged hard-working people who voted remain, and is getting on a bit, far from "every election going (my) way until 2016", very few have done, and I've spent most of my life with governments I oppose.
There's a lot of hard truths in the second paragraphs, it's difficult to look into that mirror so I'm not surprised that remainers are so dismissive of the idea that they benefited from the impoverishment of white working class Brits by Eastern Europeans living 8 to single bedroom flats working for the minimum wage or below and turning it into an effective maximum wage for millions of people. You may have been someone who came from that background but you also pulled the ladder up.
Absolute drivel.
And yet out of the EU wage inflation at the bottom of the market has gone insane.
Comments
I suspect that rejoin won't happen any time soon demographic changes may make it more likely over the next 20 years
Besides, trade regionalism is quickly getting surpassed by trade globalism. CPTPP is clearly going to be the framework for this, given they have already come up with a balance between developed and developing countries, and between countries in Asia, Oceania, North America, South America and, once the UK joins, Europe. Given the US is ultimately ruled by the corporations, it is only a matter of time before they join it. Then the question will be when the EU joins it, or remains an isolated outsider.
And yet, there's something about the current government, and in particular Boris, that suggests that it/he could implode, and when the downfall comes it could all end in tears pretty quickly. I don't think you have to 'hate' Boris to recognise the potential he has for such an implosion; indeed, even some of those who rather like him don't see him as the right PM for stable, long-term government. But yes, my comments are subjectively analytical rather than data driven.
@jessicaelgot
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1h
NEW - big new change to the NHS app meaning it will look at contacts just two days prior to a positive test rather than five
I am a lower middle class non-university educated finance professional who voted remain not because I'm some sort of self-loathing white male nor an upper middle-class snob, or any other of the ludicrous stereotypes you wheel out above, but because trying to drag the country back into the 1950's seemed crazy to me.
In fact, conversely to your rantings above, as someone with almost no safety net, the idea of engaging in a ludicrous flag-shagging vanity project at the expense of the country's economy seemed a dangerous idea to me. Nothing I've seen so far has changed my mind on that.
Embedded in your invective above is the answer to why Brexit happened in the first place - jealousy and false equivalence. Hatred of wealthier people and associating the membership of the EU with them. Taking the opportunity to lash out at the upper middle-classes, despite the fact that the blow never landed and instead arrived four-square in the stomach of lower middle class aspirers such as myself is about all you've ever achieved. The irony of course is the implied stereotype in your post that no one working class could ever be pro-European show you to be a simultaneous snob and inverted snob.
One of the reasons I joined the Conservatives as an 18 year old was because I believed they would promote aspiration in our society and wanted to drive the country forward rather than fostering the ludicrous and calcified client state New Labour had relied upon.
The reason I left in 2017 was because it became clear that they did want to generate their own client state, one based on a crazy "them and us" culture war in the UK and with the rest of Europe not for anyone's benefit but the Party's own. A personality cult based on Brexit.
Of course the culture wars will go on as the Brexiters seek endlessly to justify their position. Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership - only the British have ever seen the light and not all of them either. The culture war will continue as long as there is any sign of otherness either in the UK or across the channel - it is the lever of power for people who aren't interested in the country other than as something to control. Your own gigantic inferiority complex is of course exactly where they stick that lever.
Maybe BoZo is right...
Conservative 41% (+1)
Labour 34% (-2)
Liberal Democrat 11% (+2)
Green 6% (–)
Scottish National Party 4% (–)
Reform UK 3% (-1)
Other 2% (–)
Changes +/- 25 July
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1422225699407073285?s=20
Westminster Voting Intention (2 Aug):
Conservative 41% (+1)
Labour 34% (-2)
Liberal Democrat 11% (+2)
Green 6% (–)
Scottish National Party 4% (–)
Reform UK 3% (-1)
Other 2% (–)
Changes +/- 25 July
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-2-august-2021
You have been completely defeated. You won't get a reversal. The sooner you come to grips with this, the better you will be.
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/popular-brummie-big-issue-seller-21205545
Is it reasonable to expect big issue sellers to have well thought through positions on vaccinations? Can we not just learn to ignore stuff that doesn’t really matter, in the scheme of things?
We had the vote. It was Leave and it was the biggest vote in our history. Thank God we honoured it, in the best traditions of British democracy, anything else would have been unthinkable - and dangerous.
Time to move on.
Those leavers currently in their 40s or 50s have this nightmare vision that one grey and dull morning in their dreary old age (when it is more normal to have reactionary views and wear monocles), they will read their Daily Express (tablet version) and realise that we have joined the European United States of Europe. Full fat everything, with a Davros-like Ursula von der Leyen as President For Life.
That is why they are so angry, even though they "won". Either that or they are just miserable gits.
If Brexit really is great, you should be singing its praises.
But no.
It's a shitshow.
So you want to move on, don't mention it, forget it happened..
Unlucky...
To be fair, Newton does a better approximation than the Covid modellers. But then, it's a physicist's wet dream, more or less spherical objects moving in a (more or less) vacuum.
Brexit was regional Britain saying "this is our country as well": to arrogant Londoners
Talking of which I can report back from my Groucho lunch. The restaurant was jammed, the menu was oddly truncated (lack of staff?) but delicious, the new decor is beautiful, and central London as a whole - the bits of Soho, Fitzrovia, Bloomsbury, and Marylebone that I walked through - definitely feels a whole lot better. Many places are shut but many are reopening. The pavements are busier than I have seen since 2019.
And I don't think it is just the effect of a nice sunny day: it isn't. It's overcast, quite cool.
Central London might be reviving, for real.
Scott_P
Scott_xP
#PBPedantry
That's the Spirit of Brexit right there, ladeez and gennermen.
Like I say, meaner than a junkyard dog - and about as bright.
on a longer timescale
All we do is rehearse the same tedious arguments, then Scott XP goes mad and compares Boris to Goebbels, and then we stop, and then a day or two later we start over again. Whatever.
I will make one admission, sometimes I DO invoke Brexit when I am bored - I mention it solely to annoy people like Scott and you and the other PB Remoaners, in the same way a small boy likes tormenting a mad ape at a zoo with a peashooter - you always react so insanely it is hilarious
But it is juvenile of me. I shall try and desist
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/at-your-service/files/be-heard/eurobarometer/2020/parlemeter-2020/en-key-findings.pdf
Of course their opinions are completely worthless so it doesn't really matter.
Every day must be hell for you. My commiserations.
Approve: 39% (+7)
Disapprove: 41% (-6)
Net: -2% (+13)
Changes +/- 25 July
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1422230869079740418?s=20
Competent: 30% (+5)
Incompetent: 37% (-5)
Net: -7% (+10)
Changes +/- 25 July
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1422228306766843906?s=20
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-2-august-2021/
There's a whole new generation, about 16-22, wearing absolutely INSANE clothes. Like cloth caps with kilts and Kenyan ponchos and goggles.
Huge bell bottom trousers plus a sporran then a tabard over a cerise silk shirt, and extreme BDSM facial jewellery
It's brilliant. Long live the Young
Keir Starmer continues to lead only when it comes to best embodying the description of ‘being in good physical and mental health’ (36% to 29%).
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-2-august-2021/
But by elite they pretty much mean anyone paying taxes.
Leavers are preponderantly retired, jobless, or so wealthy that ordinary rules don’t apply.
In the real world, we have voted ourselves to be the sick man of Europe.
Productivity has stagnated since 2010.
GDP is now falling behind our G7 peers.
Foreign Direct Investment is down by a third.
Brexit may be “worth it in 50 years” - copyright Jacob Rees Mogg - but in the meantime we are condemned to watch living standards slip behind that of our neighbours.
Remainers remain angry because they are trapped on an island with spiteful, dyspeptic culture warriors. Brexiters remain angry because, subconsciously even the more stupid realise they sold the country down the river.
Good news all the same.
That's absolutely appalling (for Labour), given that Starmer loses nearly all the other tests. How can that be? I wonder if it is the legacy of Starmer's stupid position favouring a second referendum.
If that is the case then they need to be brutal, dump him, and get a Leaver in as leader. Or at least a Remainer who did NOT try and reverse the vote
Honestly this is a thing. I have other friends reporting the same. I know it is a thing because I have friends in their mid 20s who are utterly mystified by it - always a good sign of a youth revolution in the making, it is so new the 25 year olds don't understand the 18 year olds
That needs some explanation by all those accusing Boris of being economical with the truth
I took his point to be that there are simply no significant anti-EU movements in the member countries.
I doubt that I can hoick it out of the depths of the europa.int website, however.
1) people who believe everything Boris Johnson says is the truth
2) people who believe everything Boris Johnson says is a lie
3) the rest of us who don't really care (they're all politicians anyway).
"Never mind the fact that nearly 450M other Europeans are perfectly content with their EU membership"
Just a lie. But then, that's what Remainers do. Lie
Con plus 1% is merely MoE of course, but you knew that anyway
I would elaborate, based on my knowledge of the rest of Europe (comparatively narrow as that is) that unhappiness with the EU tends to be directed towards public policy forums (of which there are many) and genuine attempts to improve the project. In the UK it was weaponised to sell papers and achieve tax benefits for the already very rich.
It’s a simple truth, support for the EU rise because of Brexit.
This says nothing about the merit of the EU, it’s just a polling fact.
But the EU has already changed in unattractive ways since 2016.
In a rejoin campaign, you'd have to explain why you wanted to pool sovereignty with strange authoritarian countries like Poland, Hungary and Slovenia. (How would you campaign for ever closer union with the anti-LGBT Poland for example?).
And then there are the other problematic EU countries: Spain, where they jailed Catalan politicians for secession - which the EU endorsed when they wouldn't allow Catalan MEPs to take their seats in Brussels. See https://www.politico.eu/article/blocked-catalans-demand-to-take-seats-in-eu-parliament/
Then there is Malta where the journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia was assasinated on the orders of the Maltese govt: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/malta-government-carries-responsibility-journalists-murder-inquiry-finds-2021-07-29/
Then there is France where Macron's anti-muslim rhetoric is now so extreme, that if you substituted the word "jews" for muslims, you'd think you were in Vichy France. And that's before we get to Le Pen.
And Italy, where La Lega and the more extreme Brothers of Italy have an unassailable polling lead, which means when Draghi's technocrat govt ends, they're going far-right.
And Austria where the far-right was in coalition with Sebastian Kurtz for a couple of years.
The EU is close to a Qualified Majority of dodgy states, and if we were in the EU, that qualified majority could impose laws on us.
How would remainers argue that this was a good thing? How would remainers persuade people that it's actually attractive to pool sovereignty with dodgy countries?
Have remainers even thought about this, or are you blissfully imagining that everything is still as it was in the 1990's?