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By signing the Good Friday Agreement 23 years ago the UK made Brexit hard if not impossible – politi

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited July 22 in General
imageBy signing the Good Friday Agreement 23 years ago the UK made Brexit hard if not impossible – politicalbetting.com

As is being widely there is a huge impasse between London and Brussels over the position of Northern Ireland. The real problem is that that the basic premise of the deal that brought peace to Northern Ireland in 1998 was that both countries would remain within the EU.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • First like the US Olympic team (if it goes ahead)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 12,368
    Not the first circle of the Brexit fly on the GFA lampshade.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 86,002
    Not technically, the GFA only prevents security checkpoints.

    It does not prevent customs posts at the Irish border if Boris decided to move the hard border from the Irish Sea to Ireland, albeit that also means the end of the EU trade deal and WTO terms for the UK
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885
    On the subject of vaccines, here's the World in Data figures on percentage of population:



    We can - justly - be very proud of the British vaccination programme, while I think also admitting that the gap between us and our European neighbours has narrowed somewhat.

    The figures I'm slightly surprised by in here are for France: because on the EU's own figures, it is only slightly behind Germany/Italy/Spain for proportion of adults. *Plus*, of course, France is vaccinating 12-17 year olds. Of course, there are more kids in France than in most other EU countries, but not that many more.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of vaccines, here's the World in Data figures on percentage of population:



    We can - justly - be very proud of the British vaccination programme, while I think also admitting that the gap between us and our European neighbours has narrowed somewhat.

    The figures I'm slightly surprised by in here are for France: because on the EU's own figures, it is only slightly behind Germany/Italy/Spain for proportion of adults. *Plus*, of course, France is vaccinating 12-17 year olds. Of course, there are more kids in France than in most other EU countries, but not that many more.

    Surely that’s a good thing? We want everyone who can have the vaccine to have it.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 5,026
    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 66,703
    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of vaccines, here's the World in Data figures on percentage of population:



    We can - justly - be very proud of the British vaccination programme, while I think also admitting that the gap between us and our European neighbours has narrowed somewhat.

    The figures I'm slightly surprised by in here are for France: because on the EU's own figures, it is only slightly behind Germany/Italy/Spain for proportion of adults. *Plus*, of course, France is vaccinating 12-17 year olds. Of course, there are more kids in France than in most other EU countries, but not that many more.

    All of Europe should have good programs and most do appear so. That they were slower off the mark was very relevant and worthy of critique, but it's less of an issue now with most of the vulnerable covered, even if some of them are still some weeks behind.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    It will depend a bit on the pub, surely? Easy for a major chain like Spoons or Marstons to come up with an app. Somewhat harder for a little independent operation.

    I do agree though, I much prefer app ordering. Means I don’t have to strain to hear the bar staff, or leave a table unoccupied when I’m on my own and come back to find somebody sitting at it.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 999

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    We could import supercilious foreign waiters with starched aprons who pretend not to understand English. The essence of cafe culture imho.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 5,026
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of vaccines, here's the World in Data figures on percentage of population:



    We can - justly - be very proud of the British vaccination programme, while I think also admitting that the gap between us and our European neighbours has narrowed somewhat.

    The figures I'm slightly surprised by in here are for France: because on the EU's own figures, it is only slightly behind Germany/Italy/Spain for proportion of adults. *Plus*, of course, France is vaccinating 12-17 year olds. Of course, there are more kids in France than in most other EU countries, but not that many more.

    Surely that’s a good thing? We want everyone who can have the vaccine to have it.
    As I want to be able to go and see a good friend in Paris, the more the merrier from my own selfish point of view.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 62,763

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    We have gone all continental like....
  • eekeek Posts: 13,645
    HYUFD said:

    Not technically, the GFA only prevents security checkpoints.

    It does not prevent customs posts at the Irish border if Boris decided to move the hard border from the Irish Sea to Ireland, albeit that also means the end of the EU trade deal and WTO terms for the UK

    Boris can't do that as that isn't what he agreed with the EU. Worse he explicitly rejected that option when he binned Teresa May's original plan...

    Beyond that - a lot of people have been saying the exact same thing Mike is saying here for about 18 months (I highlighted the issue to the candidate who is now my MP back in December 2019, and everything I warned him about off the top of my head has come true).
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 11,744
    Brexit is not incompatible with the GFA. Boris's oven-ready deal is incompatible. We could have taken any number of paths, left the EU and had no problems in NI.

    What boggles the mind is that not only did our negotiators not understand the deal, they assumed that when it all flushed out the other side that they could just make whatever changes they wanted.

    Reminds me of an overrider agreement argument with Woolworths when their Sales Director was incandescent about the lack of cash being paid to him. We pointed out that his new sales strategy was explicitly against the terms of the agreement.

    "This is an awful punative agreement" he argued
    "But when we negotiated it that whole section was your proposal!" we responded
    "That was different" etc
  • OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    The choice is good, some nights it's nice to prop up the bar and chat other times you just want to sit outside and wait for the drinks to come to you. Hopefully larger pubs will keep part of the bar for those not ordering online or at the table.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 12,415

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    As long as there's a choice everyone can be happy. It's when you're told you have to do things in just one way that it's not so good.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of vaccines, here's the World in Data figures on percentage of population:



    We can - justly - be very proud of the British vaccination programme, while I think also admitting that the gap between us and our European neighbours has narrowed somewhat.

    The figures I'm slightly surprised by in here are for France: because on the EU's own figures, it is only slightly behind Germany/Italy/Spain for proportion of adults. *Plus*, of course, France is vaccinating 12-17 year olds. Of course, there are more kids in France than in most other EU countries, but not that many more.

    Surely that’s a good thing? We want everyone who can have the vaccine to have it.
    I'm not passing value judgements, merely making sure everyone is fully aware of the data.

  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 5,026
    ydoethur said:

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    It will depend a bit on the pub, surely? Easy for a major chain like Spoons or Marstons to come up with an app. Somewhat harder for a little independent operation.

    I do agree though, I much prefer app ordering. Means I don’t have to strain to hear the bar staff, or leave a table unoccupied when I’m on my own and come back to find somebody sitting at it.
    It’s particularly useful here as I’m at Paddington with a large bag that I don’t want to have to drag to the bar with me.

    It would also be useful for ordering rounds: no more coming back to find you got the order wrong, which seems to happen more as the evening goes on for some reason.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502

    ydoethur said:

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    It will depend a bit on the pub, surely? Easy for a major chain like Spoons or Marstons to come up with an app. Somewhat harder for a little independent operation.

    I do agree though, I much prefer app ordering. Means I don’t have to strain to hear the bar staff, or leave a table unoccupied when I’m on my own and come back to find somebody sitting at it.
    It’s particularly useful here as I’m at Paddington with a large bag that I don’t want to have to drag to the bar with me.

    It would also be useful for ordering rounds: no more coming back to find you got the order wrong, which seems to happen more as the evening goes on for some reason.
    https://youtu.be/yYb55tx-WK0

    You off on your well-earned holidays then? Hope you have a good one.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 67,035
    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of vaccines, here's the World in Data figures on percentage of population:



    We can - justly - be very proud of the British vaccination programme, while I think also admitting that the gap between us and our European neighbours has narrowed somewhat.

    The figures I'm slightly surprised by in here are for France: because on the EU's own figures, it is only slightly behind Germany/Italy/Spain for proportion of adults. *Plus*, of course, France is vaccinating 12-17 year olds. Of course, there are more kids in France than in most other EU countries, but not that many more.

    https://vaccinetracker.ecdc.europa.eu/public/extensions/COVID-19/vaccine-tracker.html#uptake-tab is a good site to cross reference

    Iceland 90% one dose, over 80% two doses

    Bulgaria - errm err...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 29,568
    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of vaccines, here's the World in Data figures on percentage of population:



    We can - justly - be very proud of the British vaccination programme, while I think also admitting that the gap between us and our European neighbours has narrowed somewhat.

    The figures I'm slightly surprised by in here are for France: because on the EU's own figures, it is only slightly behind Germany/Italy/Spain for proportion of adults. *Plus*, of course, France is vaccinating 12-17 year olds. Of course, there are more kids in France than in most other EU countries, but not that many more.

    The EU vaccine programme got better once the EU was shunted aside and national governments took over the role of procurement. They stopped quibbling over price and went out and paid Pfizer to expand capacity in Belgium to meet the current and future requirements of the EU.

    Our vaccine programme has, IMO, had a poor finish. We were too late ordering our second batch of Pfizer, we didn't order enough Moderna and aiui, we turned down a very early opportunity to work with Moderna on UK manufacturing in favour of procurement of Pfizer. That's why Moderna is in Switzerland for substance and Spain for fill and finish. That was a poor decision as having a very high grade domestically manufactured mRNA vaccine would have been a huge win for us. We still have other good deals done but that would have been the cherry on the cake. Our booster programme would have been a 60m order of variant busting Moderna.
  • glwglw Posts: 7,570
    kle4 said:

    All of Europe should have good programs and most do appear so. That they were slower off the mark was very relevant and worthy of critique, but it's less of an issue now with most of the vulnerable covered, even if some of them are still some weeks behind.

    I disagree that speed is less of an issue now. Speed matters just as much now, because the sooner we finish our first round of vaccination the sooner we can start the booster programme. Ideally we want to go fast with the boosters as well, to quickly shift the balance of immunity back in our favour.

    In the long term if covid remains a problem, which looks likely, we really want the ability to identify new variants, make new vaccines, and vaccinate as many people as necessary as quickly as possible.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 5,026
    Andy_JS said:

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    As long as there's a choice everyone can be happy. It's when you're told you have to do things in just one way that it's not so good.
    Andy_JS said:

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    As long as there's a choice everyone can be happy. It's when you're told you have to do things in just one way that it's not so good.
    Oh I agree totally: I wouldn’t want to have to sign in to a website or app if I were just nipping in to get a quick drink, but if I’m sitting down with a group or on my own killing time then it makes perfect sense.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 66,703
    glw said:

    kle4 said:

    All of Europe should have good programs and most do appear so. That they were slower off the mark was very relevant and worthy of critique, but it's less of an issue now with most of the vulnerable covered, even if some of them are still some weeks behind.

    I disagree that speed is less of an issue now. Speed matters just as much now, because the sooner we finish our first round of vaccination the sooner we can start the booster programme. Ideally we want to go fast with the boosters as well, to quickly shift the balance of immunity back in our favour.

    In the long term if covid remains a problem, which looks likely, we really want the ability to identify new variants, make new vaccines, and vaccinate as many people as necessary as quickly as possible.
    Less of an issue doesnt mean no issue. It just means any issue is likely to be less deadly in consequence as partial protection saves some.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 62,763
    Time for the covid case prediction game....higher...lower....nice to seee you, to see you....
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 5,026
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    It will depend a bit on the pub, surely? Easy for a major chain like Spoons or Marstons to come up with an app. Somewhat harder for a little independent operation.

    I do agree though, I much prefer app ordering. Means I don’t have to strain to hear the bar staff, or leave a table unoccupied when I’m on my own and come back to find somebody sitting at it.
    It’s particularly useful here as I’m at Paddington with a large bag that I don’t want to have to drag to the bar with me.

    It would also be useful for ordering rounds: no more coming back to find you got the order wrong, which seems to happen more as the evening goes on for some reason.
    https://youtu.be/yYb55tx-WK0

    You off on your well-earned holidays then? Hope you have a good one.
    First time away from home for the night since the whole thing started. Only a few nights away, but it will be good to go somewhere else.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 11,744
    Having extracted myself from the pillock pit (sorry) I don't want to go back into it. But with regards to the number of second doses given, is there a reason we can't speed these up? The 12 weeks thing was done early on to get as many first doses done as possible.

    There's 10m people who have had one dose only. Even if we aren't going to expand first dose numbers much can we not speed up 2nd doses? The data shows we were 10m lower on 1st doses in mid May, so get them pulled in quicker.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366
    The solution is simple and what it has always been under the GFA - compromise.

    Let NI be within the UK market and the EU market simultaneously with no checks either direction. And no tying the UK to the EU. Let businesses and people in NI choose whether they wish to follow EU rules or UK rules, just as they can choose Irish passports or British passports.

    Until then the UK should invoke Article 16, refuse to put up any border in either direction and call the EU's bluff daring them to put in checks within Ireland since they won't be able to have any in the Irish Sea anymore between GB and NI. If they don't, and we don't, then problem solved. If they do, then let them come up with new solutions that serve Britain's interests.

    Under no circumstances should we agree to alignment.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 1,045
    edited July 22
    spelling mistake in story, Mike.

    Designed

    I know it seems pedantic, but it's just my kneejerk teacher's proof reading brain.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366
    edited July 22

    Having extracted myself from the pillock pit (sorry) I don't want to go back into it. But with regards to the number of second doses given, is there a reason we can't speed these up? The 12 weeks thing was done early on to get as many first doses done as possible.

    There's 10m people who have had one dose only. Even if we aren't going to expand first dose numbers much can we not speed up 2nd doses? The data shows we were 10m lower on 1st doses in mid May, so get them pulled in quicker.

    Kudos to you on the retraction.

    Its been sped up to eight weeks already. JCVI have said they don't want to speed it up past that, because they believe it reduces efficacy of the second dose.

    Its now at eight weeks because that's what works best clinically, not because of constrained supply.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 62,763
    It appears to be 39o in my home gym.....
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 12,415
    edited July 22
    Has anyone proposed giving Northern Ireland excluding counties Down and Antrim to the Republic of Ireland, with those two counties remaining part of the UK?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 86,002
    edited July 22
    Andy_JS said:

    Has anyone proposed giving Northern Ireland excluding counties Down and Antrim to the Republic of Ireland, with those two countries remaining part of the UK?

    Add East Londonderry but exclude South Down and give it and South and West Belfast to the Republic and it would be possible
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    Andy_JS said:

    Has anyone proposed giving Northern Ireland excluding counties Down and Antrim to the Republic of Ireland, with those two countries remaining part of the UK?

    Heath did in I think 1973.

    But I don’t think it would be feasible. Quite apart from the large minorities of Unionists in say, Londonderry, and the similar Nationalist communities in Belfast, where would the water and electricity supplies come from?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 11,744
    Andy_JS said:

    Has anyone proposed giving Northern Ireland excluding counties Down and Antrim to the Republic of Ireland, with those two counties remaining part of the UK?

    Which set of paramilitaries do you wish to kneecap you first?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 29,568

    Having extracted myself from the pillock pit (sorry) I don't want to go back into it. But with regards to the number of second doses given, is there a reason we can't speed these up? The 12 weeks thing was done early on to get as many first doses done as possible.

    There's 10m people who have had one dose only. Even if we aren't going to expand first dose numbers much can we not speed up 2nd doses? The data shows we were 10m lower on 1st doses in mid May, so get them pulled in quicker.

    It's been brought down to 8 weeks, the current rate of second doses is about 1.4-1.5m per week so we're about 6-7 weeks from covering all of the existing first doses. Realistically it might be just 4 weeks because there will be some number of people who don't get a second dose and the last couple of weeks the first dose rate has been very low.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885
    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of vaccines, here's the World in Data figures on percentage of population:



    We can - justly - be very proud of the British vaccination programme, while I think also admitting that the gap between us and our European neighbours has narrowed somewhat.

    The figures I'm slightly surprised by in here are for France: because on the EU's own figures, it is only slightly behind Germany/Italy/Spain for proportion of adults. *Plus*, of course, France is vaccinating 12-17 year olds. Of course, there are more kids in France than in most other EU countries, but not that many more.

    https://vaccinetracker.ecdc.europa.eu/public/extensions/COVID-19/vaccine-tracker.html#uptake-tab is a good site to cross reference

    Iceland 90% one dose, over 80% two doses

    Bulgaria - errm err...
    If you measured Russian influence and plotted it against vaccine hesitancy, I think you'd see a very high degree of correlation.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 67,035

    Time for the covid case prediction game....higher...lower....nice to seee you, to see you....

    I wheeled out what would be good (And bad) numbers a few comments ago.

    I'll go for 56,000 as an actual guess which would be a reasonably good number.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 66,703

    Having extracted myself from the pillock pit (sorry) I don't want to go back into it. But with regards to the number of second doses given, is there a reason we can't speed these up? The 12 weeks thing was done early on to get as many first doses done as possible.

    There's 10m people who have had one dose only. Even if we aren't going to expand first dose numbers much can we not speed up 2nd doses? The data shows we were 10m lower on 1st doses in mid May, so get them pulled in quicker.

    I think they are, to 8 weeks, but could it be faster?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,021
    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Has anyone proposed giving Northern Ireland excluding counties Down and Antrim to the Republic of Ireland, with those two countries remaining part of the UK?

    Heath did in I think 1973.

    But I don’t think it would be feasible. Quite apart from the large minorities of Unionists in say, Londonderry, and the similar Nationalist communities in Belfast, where would the water and electricity supplies come from?
    I dunno. Gibraltar is much smaller. Also HYUFD has proposed it on a few occasions. If he suggests something it can't be bonkers.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 1,960
    glw said:

    kle4 said:

    All of Europe should have good programs and most do appear so. That they were slower off the mark was very relevant and worthy of critique, but it's less of an issue now with most of the vulnerable covered, even if some of them are still some weeks behind.

    I disagree that speed is less of an issue now. Speed matters just as much now, because the sooner we finish our first round of vaccination the sooner we can start the booster programme. Ideally we want to go fast with the boosters as well, to quickly shift the balance of immunity back in our favour.

    In the long term if covid remains a problem, which looks likely, we really want the ability to identify new variants, make new vaccines, and vaccinate as many people as necessary as quickly as possible.
    Boosters will start the first week in September
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 67,035
    ourworldindata has a population for the UK which is above what we actually have. Hopefully they'll adjust it to our 2020 mid ONS pop estimate rather than using the UN one which is too high.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885

    Having extracted myself from the pillock pit (sorry) I don't want to go back into it. But with regards to the number of second doses given, is there a reason we can't speed these up? The 12 weeks thing was done early on to get as many first doses done as possible.

    There's 10m people who have had one dose only. Even if we aren't going to expand first dose numbers much can we not speed up 2nd doses? The data shows we were 10m lower on 1st doses in mid May, so get them pulled in quicker.

    Kudos to you on the retraction.

    Its been sped up to eight weeks already. JCVI have said they don't want to speed it up past that, because they believe it reduces efficacy of the second dose.

    Its now at eight weeks because that's what works best clinically, not because of constrained supply.
    Personal view: mixing and matching vaccines stimulates a greater immune response, and we'd be well advised to do that.
  • eekeek Posts: 13,645
    ydoethur said:

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    It will depend a bit on the pub, surely? Easy for a major chain like Spoons or Marstons to come up with an app. Somewhat harder for a little independent operation.

    I do agree though, I much prefer app ordering. Means I don’t have to strain to hear the bar staff, or leave a table unoccupied when I’m on my own and come back to find somebody sitting at it.
    I'm not going to wander off looking but from memory a lot of the apps are very reasonably priced with the app making it's money off their commission fee or the additional fee they charge
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not technically, the GFA only prevents security checkpoints.

    It does not prevent customs posts at the Irish border if Boris decided to move the hard border from the Irish Sea to Ireland, albeit that also means the end of the EU trade deal and WTO terms for the UK

    Boris can't do that as that isn't what he agreed with the EU. Worse he explicitly rejected that option when he binned Teresa May's original plan...

    Beyond that - a lot of people have been saying the exact same thing Mike is saying here for about 18 months (I highlighted the issue to the candidate who is now my MP back in December 2019, and everything I warned him about off the top of my head has come true).
    There are plenty of options within Boris's deal, Article 16 for instance is a part of Boris's deal so he's welcome to invoke that any time and I would strongly endorse that option. Though I appreciate keeping it as a threat may be better.

    Incidentally the amount of people going down the logical fallacy of "you negotiated this, you shouldn't want to renegotiate it now" is farcical. Its extremely common to negotiate agreements then revisit them down the line once you've had the opportunity to see how they work in practice, or to come in with new demands you didn't think you could get agreed last time.

    Most people have their salaries renegotiated on an annual or similar basis. Saying "you negotiated this in the past, so the case is closed" doesn't work with that as people go back to revisit and renegotiate their contracts regularly. Same here with Brussels, its time to renegotiate whatever we're not happy with - and if we can't, we can always invoke Article 16.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 9,442

    It appears to be 39o in my home gym.....

    Very bad.

    It's a pleasant 28o in my home pub. :)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of vaccines, here's the World in Data figures on percentage of population:



    We can - justly - be very proud of the British vaccination programme, while I think also admitting that the gap between us and our European neighbours has narrowed somewhat.

    The figures I'm slightly surprised by in here are for France: because on the EU's own figures, it is only slightly behind Germany/Italy/Spain for proportion of adults. *Plus*, of course, France is vaccinating 12-17 year olds. Of course, there are more kids in France than in most other EU countries, but not that many more.

    The EU vaccine programme got better once the EU was shunted aside and national governments took over the role of procurement. They stopped quibbling over price and went out and paid Pfizer to expand capacity in Belgium to meet the current and future requirements of the EU.

    Our vaccine programme has, IMO, had a poor finish. We were too late ordering our second batch of Pfizer, we didn't order enough Moderna and aiui, we turned down a very early opportunity to work with Moderna on UK manufacturing in favour of procurement of Pfizer. That's why Moderna is in Switzerland for substance and Spain for fill and finish. That was a poor decision as having a very high grade domestically manufactured mRNA vaccine would have been a huge win for us. We still have other good deals done but that would have been the cherry on the cake. Our booster programme would have been a 60m order of variant busting Moderna.
    I thought the EU put in a big Pfizer order at the end of March, which basically saved the EU's bacon? (Given the failure of CureVac.)
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 11,744
    As the UK government aren't (for some unknown reason) listening to either Philip or HYUFD, we will have to await developments.

    What will make for entertaining reading is the reaction of allies and future trading relationship partners like America. They made very clear how they will react to us crapping over the GFA and not honouring treaties.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885
    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Has anyone proposed giving Northern Ireland excluding counties Down and Antrim to the Republic of Ireland, with those two countries remaining part of the UK?

    Heath did in I think 1973.

    But I don’t think it would be feasible. Quite apart from the large minorities of Unionists in say, Londonderry, and the similar Nationalist communities in Belfast, where would the water and electricity supplies come from?
    I dunno. Gibraltar is much smaller. Also HYUFD has proposed it on a few occasions. If he suggests something it can't be bonkers.
    Have we considered given Gibraltar to Northern Ireland, to make up for the loss of some of the border territories?
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 5,026
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    It will depend a bit on the pub, surely? Easy for a major chain like Spoons or Marstons to come up with an app. Somewhat harder for a little independent operation.

    I do agree though, I much prefer app ordering. Means I don’t have to strain to hear the bar staff, or leave a table unoccupied when I’m on my own and come back to find somebody sitting at it.
    It’s particularly useful here as I’m at Paddington with a large bag that I don’t want to have to drag to the bar with me.

    It would also be useful for ordering rounds: no more coming back to find you got the order wrong, which seems to happen more as the evening goes on for some reason.
    https://youtu.be/yYb55tx-WK0

    You off on your well-earned holidays then? Hope you have a good one.
    I’d not seen that one before😀 Thanks for that.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366
    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    It will depend a bit on the pub, surely? Easy for a major chain like Spoons or Marstons to come up with an app. Somewhat harder for a little independent operation.

    I do agree though, I much prefer app ordering. Means I don’t have to strain to hear the bar staff, or leave a table unoccupied when I’m on my own and come back to find somebody sitting at it.
    I'm not going to wander off looking but from memory a lot of the apps are very reasonably priced with the app making it's money off their commission fee or the additional fee they charge
    Depending upon the rates, a "commission" fee can be a steep price to pay, considering the people ordering are in your own premises and would presumably be ordering anyway.

    Its hardly like Just Eat where the commission is for orders that wouldn't have happened if you'd not signed up.
  • eekeek Posts: 13,645
    MaxPB said:

    Having extracted myself from the pillock pit (sorry) I don't want to go back into it. But with regards to the number of second doses given, is there a reason we can't speed these up? The 12 weeks thing was done early on to get as many first doses done as possible.

    There's 10m people who have had one dose only. Even if we aren't going to expand first dose numbers much can we not speed up 2nd doses? The data shows we were 10m lower on 1st doses in mid May, so get them pulled in quicker.

    It's been brought down to 8 weeks, the current rate of second doses is about 1.4-1.5m per week so we're about 6-7 weeks from covering all of the existing first doses. Realistically it might be just 4 weeks because there will be some number of people who don't get a second dose and the last couple of weeks the first dose rate has been very low.
    I would go for 5 weeks as I know my twins were done on the first possible day for their age group and their second vaccinations are on August 18th. There is a distinct drop in first vaccinations after June 26th.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366

    As the UK government aren't (for some unknown reason) listening to either Philip or HYUFD, we will have to await developments.

    What will make for entertaining reading is the reaction of allies and future trading relationship partners like America. They made very clear how they will react to us crapping over the GFA and not honouring treaties.

    The UK government is edging to my position. Lord Frost all but confirmed this week that the conditions are right to invoke Article 16 if we choose to do so.

    Just as the UK government edged to my position pre-Brexit away from May's.

    If they'd just let me be in control of this whole thing, it would go so much smoother. Or not. 😉
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of vaccines, here's the World in Data figures on percentage of population:



    We can - justly - be very proud of the British vaccination programme, while I think also admitting that the gap between us and our European neighbours has narrowed somewhat.

    The figures I'm slightly surprised by in here are for France: because on the EU's own figures, it is only slightly behind Germany/Italy/Spain for proportion of adults. *Plus*, of course, France is vaccinating 12-17 year olds. Of course, there are more kids in France than in most other EU countries, but not that many more.

    The EU vaccine programme got better once the EU was shunted aside and national governments took over the role of procurement. They stopped quibbling over price and went out and paid Pfizer to expand capacity in Belgium to meet the current and future requirements of the EU.

    Our vaccine programme has, IMO, had a poor finish. We were too late ordering our second batch of Pfizer, we didn't order enough Moderna and aiui, we turned down a very early opportunity to work with Moderna on UK manufacturing in favour of procurement of Pfizer. That's why Moderna is in Switzerland for substance and Spain for fill and finish. That was a poor decision as having a very high grade domestically manufactured mRNA vaccine would have been a huge win for us. We still have other good deals done but that would have been the cherry on the cake. Our booster programme would have been a 60m order of variant busting Moderna.
    I thought the EU put in a big Pfizer order at the end of March, which basically saved the EU's bacon? (Given the failure of CureVac.)
    The interesting parallel universe is what would the EU have done had we been a part of their scheme all along.

    I'm guessing the answer is that it would have been worse for Britain and worse for the EU simultaneously. Since they basically got embarrassed by Britain's success into acting and if we were a part of their scheme that embarrassment wouldn't have happened and they'd have not paid much attention to Israel, or the USA, or where they could have been.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 5,026
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of vaccines, here's the World in Data figures on percentage of population:



    We can - justly - be very proud of the British vaccination programme, while I think also admitting that the gap between us and our European neighbours has narrowed somewhat.

    The figures I'm slightly surprised by in here are for France: because on the EU's own figures, it is only slightly behind Germany/Italy/Spain for proportion of adults. *Plus*, of course, France is vaccinating 12-17 year olds. Of course, there are more kids in France than in most other EU countries, but not that many more.

    https://vaccinetracker.ecdc.europa.eu/public/extensions/COVID-19/vaccine-tracker.html#uptake-tab is a good site to cross reference

    Iceland 90% one dose, over 80% two doses

    Bulgaria - errm err...
    If you measured Russian influence and plotted it against vaccine hesitancy, I think you'd see a very high degree of correlation.
    I know on Russian doing his best to make up for it: he has now had four jabs as the two he had in Moscow don’t count as far as the UK is concerned.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 16,601
    kle4 said:

    Having extracted myself from the pillock pit (sorry) I don't want to go back into it. But with regards to the number of second doses given, is there a reason we can't speed these up? The 12 weeks thing was done early on to get as many first doses done as possible.

    There's 10m people who have had one dose only. Even if we aren't going to expand first dose numbers much can we not speed up 2nd doses? The data shows we were 10m lower on 1st doses in mid May, so get them pulled in quicker.

    I think they are, to 8 weeks, but could it be faster?
    IIRC 8 weeks was decided upon, based on studies of T-cell response. So likely to give long term immunity.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 5,026
    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    It will depend a bit on the pub, surely? Easy for a major chain like Spoons or Marstons to come up with an app. Somewhat harder for a little independent operation.

    I do agree though, I much prefer app ordering. Means I don’t have to strain to hear the bar staff, or leave a table unoccupied when I’m on my own and come back to find somebody sitting at it.
    I'm not going to wander off looking but from memory a lot of the apps are very reasonably priced with the app making it's money off their commission fee or the additional fee they charge
    The one I was using was a website rather than an app.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 41,949
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    It will depend a bit on the pub, surely? Easy for a major chain like Spoons or Marstons to come up with an app. Somewhat harder for a little independent operation.

    I do agree though, I much prefer app ordering. Means I don’t have to strain to hear the bar staff, or leave a table unoccupied when I’m on my own and come back to find somebody sitting at it.
    It’s particularly useful here as I’m at Paddington with a large bag that I don’t want to have to drag to the bar with me.

    It would also be useful for ordering rounds: no more coming back to find you got the order wrong, which seems to happen more as the evening goes on for some reason.
    https://youtu.be/yYb55tx-WK0

    You off on your well-earned holidays then? Hope you have a good one.
    My local uses ServedUp app. Not really an app, it's a website but they all call it the app down there. So far they have kept it and added service at the bar.
  • eekeek Posts: 13,645
    edited July 22

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    It will depend a bit on the pub, surely? Easy for a major chain like Spoons or Marstons to come up with an app. Somewhat harder for a little independent operation.

    I do agree though, I much prefer app ordering. Means I don’t have to strain to hear the bar staff, or leave a table unoccupied when I’m on my own and come back to find somebody sitting at it.
    I'm not going to wander off looking but from memory a lot of the apps are very reasonably priced with the app making it's money off their commission fee or the additional fee they charge
    Depending upon the rates, a "commission" fee can be a steep price to pay, considering the people ordering are in your own premises and would presumably be ordering anyway.

    Its hardly like Just Eat where the commission is for orders that wouldn't have happened if you'd not signed up.
    The 2 apps I've used recently w8r and round.app have different approaches. w8r seems to charge an unavoidable service fee, round doesn't or at least not that I can remember.

    I suspect the monthly fee to the pub / restaurant will differ based on the approach used.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 94,885
    Bah, The Hundred looks like it is here to stay.

    The total viewing figures on the BBC were only fractionally short of the peak of 1.7 million who watched England’s men Twenty20 fixture with Pakistan last Sunday on the BBC. Across all channels, 3.8 million are estimated to have watched some of the match last night, with one-third of those viewers female.

    The figures will delight the ECB who have faced years of criticism over locking cricket away behind the Sky paywall. There are only ten of 32 men’s matches live on the BBC and eight from the women’s tournament but the ECB will see those as crucial for building a following away from the mainstream cricket audience.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2021/07/22/bbc-sky-fire-unreadable-on-screen-hundred-graphics/
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 29,568
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of vaccines, here's the World in Data figures on percentage of population:



    We can - justly - be very proud of the British vaccination programme, while I think also admitting that the gap between us and our European neighbours has narrowed somewhat.

    The figures I'm slightly surprised by in here are for France: because on the EU's own figures, it is only slightly behind Germany/Italy/Spain for proportion of adults. *Plus*, of course, France is vaccinating 12-17 year olds. Of course, there are more kids in France than in most other EU countries, but not that many more.

    The EU vaccine programme got better once the EU was shunted aside and national governments took over the role of procurement. They stopped quibbling over price and went out and paid Pfizer to expand capacity in Belgium to meet the current and future requirements of the EU.

    Our vaccine programme has, IMO, had a poor finish. We were too late ordering our second batch of Pfizer, we didn't order enough Moderna and aiui, we turned down a very early opportunity to work with Moderna on UK manufacturing in favour of procurement of Pfizer. That's why Moderna is in Switzerland for substance and Spain for fill and finish. That was a poor decision as having a very high grade domestically manufactured mRNA vaccine would have been a huge win for us. We still have other good deals done but that would have been the cherry on the cake. Our booster programme would have been a 60m order of variant busting Moderna.
    I thought the EU put in a big Pfizer order at the end of March, which basically saved the EU's bacon? (Given the failure of CureVac.)
    They were driven by Germany telling them pay what's being asked or they'll go it alone. The EU were still trying to ask for discounts until that point.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 62,763

    Bah, The Hundred looks like it is here to stay.

    The total viewing figures on the BBC were only fractionally short of the peak of 1.7 million who watched England’s men Twenty20 fixture with Pakistan last Sunday on the BBC. Across all channels, 3.8 million are estimated to have watched some of the match last night, with one-third of those viewers female.

    The figures will delight the ECB who have faced years of criticism over locking cricket away behind the Sky paywall. There are only ten of 32 men’s matches live on the BBC and eight from the women’s tournament but the ECB will see those as crucial for building a following away from the mainstream cricket audience.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2021/07/22/bbc-sky-fire-unreadable-on-screen-hundred-graphics/

    Lets wait and see...i remember when GB News used to get 300k viewers ;-)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 94,885
    Not sure how to spin this?

    1) Boris Johnson's incompetence strikes again and the world is laughing at us.

    2) Aussies and New Zealanders are soft arses.

    3) It is Rugby League, who gives a pooh? I mean they have the big girl's blouse fifth tackle rule.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-league/2021/07/22/australia-new-zealand-criticised-pulling-rugby-league-world/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 62,763

    Not sure how to spin this?

    1) Boris Johnson's incompetence strikes again and the world is laughing at us.

    2) Aussies and New Zealanders are soft arses.

    3) It is Rugby League, who gives a pooh? I mean they have the big girl's blouse fifth tackle rule.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-league/2021/07/22/australia-new-zealand-criticised-pulling-rugby-league-world/

    All of the above....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 94,885

    Bah, The Hundred looks like it is here to stay.

    The total viewing figures on the BBC were only fractionally short of the peak of 1.7 million who watched England’s men Twenty20 fixture with Pakistan last Sunday on the BBC. Across all channels, 3.8 million are estimated to have watched some of the match last night, with one-third of those viewers female.

    The figures will delight the ECB who have faced years of criticism over locking cricket away behind the Sky paywall. There are only ten of 32 men’s matches live on the BBC and eight from the women’s tournament but the ECB will see those as crucial for building a following away from the mainstream cricket audience.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2021/07/22/bbc-sky-fire-unreadable-on-screen-hundred-graphics/

    Lets wait and see...i remember when GB News used to get 300k viewers ;-)
    Those graphics look like they designed by someone who works at GB News.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 11,744

    As the UK government aren't (for some unknown reason) listening to either Philip or HYUFD, we will have to await developments.

    What will make for entertaining reading is the reaction of allies and future trading relationship partners like America. They made very clear how they will react to us crapping over the GFA and not honouring treaties.

    The UK government is edging to my position. Lord Frost all but confirmed this week that the conditions are right to invoke Article 16 if we choose to do so.

    Just as the UK government edged to my position pre-Brexit away from May's.

    If they'd just let me be in control of this whole thing, it would go so much smoother. Or not. 😉
    Lol - yes lets have the world expert in charge!

    The problem with "just invoke Article 16" is all the downstream consequences of doing so. Your position is blissfully naive - then again so was Frost's so yes maybe they should.

    I know that you are the fountain of all knowledge and that everything is simple, but in the real world it isn't simple. We can't just either invoke A16 and problem solved, or not stay aligned and just do what we want no matter how many times you say it.

    The classic fudge solution is coming. We are aligned now, so all barriers could be dropped now. We say that we reserve the right to diverge, and propose a 3rd party arbiter if either side raises a standards challenge in future. We all get along. So when our new trade deal gets signed with America and we protect food standards as we say we will, there are no problems.

    To get there we need to drop our absolutes. I dropped mine, can you drop yours, or is every mistake or difference of opinion to be met with "liar"?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 94,885

    Not sure how to spin this?

    1) Boris Johnson's incompetence strikes again and the world is laughing at us.

    2) Aussies and New Zealanders are soft arses.

    3) It is Rugby League, who gives a pooh? I mean they have the big girl's blouse fifth tackle rule.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-league/2021/07/22/australia-new-zealand-criticised-pulling-rugby-league-world/

    All of the above....
    Yup.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366

    Not sure how to spin this?

    1) Boris Johnson's incompetence strikes again and the world is laughing at us.

    2) Aussies and New Zealanders are soft arses.

    3) It is Rugby League, who gives a pooh? I mean they have the big girl's blouse fifth tackle rule.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-league/2021/07/22/australia-new-zealand-criticised-pulling-rugby-league-world/

    4) The price Aus and NZ are paying for failing to vaccinate, unlike Britain, is that they're having to hide from the world.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 37,463

    It appears to be 39o in my home gym.....

    Very bad.

    It's a pleasant 28o in my home pub. :)
    27 degrees in my living room with the fan on!
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    edited July 22
    My island list:

    Great Britain
    Lewis and Harris
    Great Bernera
    Scalpay (the one off Harris)
    North Uist
    Grimsay
    Benbecula
    South Uist
    Skye
    Eilean Ban
    Bute
    Great Cumbrae
    Holy Island (the one with Lindisfarne)
    Arran
    St Michael's Mount
    Hayling
    Orkney Mainland
    Burray
    South Ronaldsay
    Sanday
    (Eday? can't remember)
    Stronsay
    Shetland Mainland
    Yell
    Unst
    (Bressay? can't remember)
    Sheppey
    CANVEY (home to Britain's greatest ever musical group!)
  • eekeek Posts: 13,645

    Not sure how to spin this?

    1) Boris Johnson's incompetence strikes again and the world is laughing at us.

    2) Aussies and New Zealanders are soft arses.

    3) It is Rugby League, who gives a pooh? I mean they have the big girl's blouse fifth tackle rule.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-league/2021/07/22/australia-new-zealand-criticised-pulling-rugby-league-world/

    All of the above....
    Yup.
    Also

    5) the NRL in Australia really didn't want to waste time coming to the UK - and don't really care about internationals except say against NZ.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 11,122
    HYUFD said:

    Not technically, the GFA only prevents security checkpoints.

    It does not prevent customs posts at the Irish border if Boris decided to move the hard border from the Irish Sea to Ireland, albeit that also means the end of the EU trade deal and WTO terms for the UK

    Are you sure you get the picture?

    You might need to divert your tanks from Scotland to the Emerald Isle.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,021

    Not sure how to spin this?

    1) Boris Johnson's incompetence strikes again and the world is laughing at us.

    2) Aussies and New Zealanders are soft arses.

    3) It is Rugby League, who gives a pooh? I mean they have the big girl's blouse fifth tackle rule.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-league/2021/07/22/australia-new-zealand-criticised-pulling-rugby-league-world/

    4) Australia (and likely New Zealand) are facing up to the fact that their early sucesses in keeping Covid out are not likely to be able to withstand Delta and they don't want to be making a bad situation worse.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,745
    rcs1000 said:

    ..
    We can - justly - be very proud of the British vaccination programme, while I think also admitting that the gap between us and our European neighbours has narrowed somewhat.
    [snip]

    Unfortunately we've thrown away the advantage we had. Boris didn't do anything to stop Delta getting widely seeded when it was obvious he should, he screwed up the re-opening that would have been possible if we'd concentrated on the protection given to the (double-) jabbed, we've been slow to get the youngsters jabbed, and because of the mixed messaging and confusion we've now got one of the highest infection rates in Europe, thus triggering the pingdemic and negating all the advantages of being early in the vaccination programme.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 3,796
    This is a very sad story. And such a metaphor for our approach to risk that it seems almost implausible:

    Woman who shielded for nine months killed by lorry on first day out while searching for a facemask in her handbag.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/21/woman-killed-lorry-first-day-shielding-nine-months/
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 38,440

    ydoethur said:

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    It will depend a bit on the pub, surely? Easy for a major chain like Spoons or Marstons to come up with an app. Somewhat harder for a little independent operation.

    I do agree though, I much prefer app ordering. Means I don’t have to strain to hear the bar staff, or leave a table unoccupied when I’m on my own and come back to find somebody sitting at it.
    It’s particularly useful here as I’m at Paddington with a large bag that I don’t want to have to drag to the bar with me.

    It would also be useful for ordering rounds: no more coming back to find you got the order wrong, which seems to happen more as the evening goes on for some reason.
    The most important question is surely whether or not you have marmalade sandwiches.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502

    HYUFD said:

    Not technically, the GFA only prevents security checkpoints.

    It does not prevent customs posts at the Irish border if Boris decided to move the hard border from the Irish Sea to Ireland, albeit that also means the end of the EU trade deal and WTO terms for the UK

    Are you sure you get the picture?

    You might need to divert your tanks from Scotland to the Emerald Isle.
    At this rate we’re going to have more places to invade than we have tanks.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 3,796

    It appears to be 39o in my home gym.....

    Very bad.

    It's a pleasant 28o in my home pub. :)
    27 degrees in my living room with the fan on!
    29 in my home office in the attic. 'Rain coming', says my computer. Which seems unlikely.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366

    As the UK government aren't (for some unknown reason) listening to either Philip or HYUFD, we will have to await developments.

    What will make for entertaining reading is the reaction of allies and future trading relationship partners like America. They made very clear how they will react to us crapping over the GFA and not honouring treaties.

    The UK government is edging to my position. Lord Frost all but confirmed this week that the conditions are right to invoke Article 16 if we choose to do so.

    Just as the UK government edged to my position pre-Brexit away from May's.

    If they'd just let me be in control of this whole thing, it would go so much smoother. Or not. 😉
    Lol - yes lets have the world expert in charge!

    The problem with "just invoke Article 16" is all the downstream consequences of doing so. Your position is blissfully naive - then again so was Frost's so yes maybe they should.

    I know that you are the fountain of all knowledge and that everything is simple, but in the real world it isn't simple. We can't just either invoke A16 and problem solved, or not stay aligned and just do what we want no matter how many times you say it.

    The classic fudge solution is coming. We are aligned now, so all barriers could be dropped now. We say that we reserve the right to diverge, and propose a 3rd party arbiter if either side raises a standards challenge in future. We all get along. So when our new trade deal gets signed with America and we protect food standards as we say we will, there are no problems.

    To get there we need to drop our absolutes. I dropped mine, can you drop yours, or is every mistake or difference of opinion to be met with "liar"?
    No, only outright lies are to be met with liar. They're few and far between, but I guess you've realised the error of your ways at the end of the last thread and I've already said kudos to you for retracting it.

    Anyway, your classic fudge solution you've just proposed is what I've proposed as the solution many times before. Don't commit to maintain aligned (its the commitment that's the problem), but for anything where we are aligned there's no reason we should have checks just because the alignment isn't permanently committed to. I also proposed the independent arbitration in the past too.

    So if that's what you're ready to accept, its what I was already suggesting as the long term solution. Reality catching up with me again? I'll try to be humble, honest.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 94,885
    Cookie said:

    This is a very sad story. And such a metaphor for our approach to risk that it seems almost implausible:

    Woman who shielded for nine months killed by lorry on first day out while searching for a facemask in her handbag.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/21/woman-killed-lorry-first-day-shielding-nine-months/

    As an aside, the biggest risk on the drive to Brighton, new lorry drivers.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 13,207
    edited July 22
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Has anyone proposed giving Northern Ireland excluding counties Down and Antrim to the Republic of Ireland, with those two countries remaining part of the UK?

    Add East Londonderry but exclude South Down and it would be possible
    Deleted. Original post edited to include my point :)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 29,568

    rcs1000 said:

    ..
    We can - justly - be very proud of the British vaccination programme, while I think also admitting that the gap between us and our European neighbours has narrowed somewhat.
    [snip]

    Unfortunately we've thrown away the advantage we had. Boris didn't do anything to stop Delta getting widely seeded when it was obvious he should, he screwed up the re-opening that would have been possible if we'd concentrated on the protection given to the (double-) jabbed, we've been slow to get the youngsters jabbed, and because of the mixed messaging and confusion we've now got one of the highest infection rates in Europe, thus triggering the pingdemic and negating all the advantages of being early in the vaccination programme.
    Tbh, the infection rates in Europe are about to or have already followed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502

    Bah, The Hundred looks like it is here to stay.

    The total viewing figures on the BBC were only fractionally short of the peak of 1.7 million who watched England’s men Twenty20 fixture with Pakistan last Sunday on the BBC. Across all channels, 3.8 million are estimated to have watched some of the match last night, with one-third of those viewers female.

    The figures will delight the ECB who have faced years of criticism over locking cricket away behind the Sky paywall. There are only ten of 32 men’s matches live on the BBC and eight from the women’s tournament but the ECB will see those as crucial for building a following away from the mainstream cricket audience.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2021/07/22/bbc-sky-fire-unreadable-on-screen-hundred-graphics/

    Scene: The ECB boardroom.

    Hooray! We’ve got a massive television audience for the first time in years. We should have done this ages ago. What silly bastard sold the rights to a disgraced Aussie pornographer who...ah.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 12,368
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not technically, the GFA only prevents security checkpoints.

    It does not prevent customs posts at the Irish border if Boris decided to move the hard border from the Irish Sea to Ireland, albeit that also means the end of the EU trade deal and WTO terms for the UK

    Are you sure you get the picture?

    You might need to divert your tanks from Scotland to the Emerald Isle.
    At this rate we’re going to have more places to invade than we have tanks.
    Not long now: DA reckoned the other day the MOD was working towards having just 60 tanks proper that were actually equipped to modern standards.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 3,796
    On thread - Tony Blair is wearing a surprisingly horrible tie. And his jacket looks too big. Yet I remember him being described as style over substance. Clearly the 90s were a less stylish time than I remember.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 11,744

    As the UK government aren't (for some unknown reason) listening to either Philip or HYUFD, we will have to await developments.

    What will make for entertaining reading is the reaction of allies and future trading relationship partners like America. They made very clear how they will react to us crapping over the GFA and not honouring treaties.

    The UK government is edging to my position. Lord Frost all but confirmed this week that the conditions are right to invoke Article 16 if we choose to do so.

    Just as the UK government edged to my position pre-Brexit away from May's.

    If they'd just let me be in control of this whole thing, it would go so much smoother. Or not. 😉
    Lol - yes lets have the world expert in charge!

    The problem with "just invoke Article 16" is all the downstream consequences of doing so. Your position is blissfully naive - then again so was Frost's so yes maybe they should.

    I know that you are the fountain of all knowledge and that everything is simple, but in the real world it isn't simple. We can't just either invoke A16 and problem solved, or not stay aligned and just do what we want no matter how many times you say it.

    The classic fudge solution is coming. We are aligned now, so all barriers could be dropped now. We say that we reserve the right to diverge, and propose a 3rd party arbiter if either side raises a standards challenge in future. We all get along. So when our new trade deal gets signed with America and we protect food standards as we say we will, there are no problems.

    To get there we need to drop our absolutes. I dropped mine, can you drop yours, or is every mistake or difference of opinion to be met with "liar"?
    No, only outright lies are to be met with liar. They're few and far between, but I guess you've realised the error of your ways at the end of the last thread and I've already said kudos to you for retracting it.
    It wasn't a lie. It was a misread of the data. "The error of my ways"? Who are you again? SeanT does sock puppets, you sound as buffoonish as HYUFD at the moment.

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 3,936
    edited July 22
    HUZZAH.. BORIS HATERS PLEASE NOTE....

    YOU CANNOT BLAME BORIS FOR THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT.

    THANK YOU
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 66,703
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not technically, the GFA only prevents security checkpoints.

    It does not prevent customs posts at the Irish border if Boris decided to move the hard border from the Irish Sea to Ireland, albeit that also means the end of the EU trade deal and WTO terms for the UK

    Are you sure you get the picture?

    You might need to divert your tanks from Scotland to the Emerald Isle.
    At this rate we’re going to have more places to invade than we have tanks.
    Not long now: DA reckoned the other day the MOD was working towards having just 60 tanks proper that were actually equipped to modern standards.
    Do Tanks even have a use anymore? Genuine question.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 1,839

    OT

    I’m in a pub for the fist time in ages and it has table ordering, though you can go to the bar if you want.

    I don’t want: I much prefer this way of doing it!

    Hopefully it will stay as an option even when we are back to normal.

    We have gone all continental like....
    If I had to identify one good thing that has emerged from the pandemic that would be it. The huge expansion of continental-style outdoor drinking and dining at many pubs, bars and restaurants is, I hope, here to stay. I know we're somewhat limited by the weather, but tables spilling out onto pavements and even roads when it's pleasant weather is fab. It's a trend that was happening in the UK anyway, but Covid has accelerated it rapidly.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,745
    On topic: I don't think that's quite right. Yes, the Northern Ireland Protocol is inconsistent with the particularly ideological, irrational and self-harming version of Brexit which Boris and Lord Frost have gone for, but that was entirely their choice. It's not inconsistent with the vision of Brexit touted by the Brexiteers during the referendum and still available for all to see on their website:

    http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 38,440
    On topic I agree entirely with the thread header. Difficult but not impossible. An important prior agreement that was based on a mutual assumption that both countries would continue to operate within the EU framework. Not easy to square the circle of extremely close relations between the parts of Ireland and rather more distant ones between the UK and the EU.

    It is a mystery to me how anyone thought that this would be easy and I say that as someone who was in favour of Brexit. The honest answer is that our political leaders just didn't care enough about NI to want to address the problem properly.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 13,207
    Cookie said:

    It appears to be 39o in my home gym.....

    Very bad.

    It's a pleasant 28o in my home pub. :)
    27 degrees in my living room with the fan on!
    29 in my home office in the attic. 'Rain coming', says my computer. Which seems unlikely.
    Not seen the Sun all day. Topped out at 20°.
    Blessed relief tbh.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 11,744
    Cookie said:

    On thread - Tony Blair is wearing a surprisingly horrible tie. And his jacket looks too big. Yet I remember him being described as style over substance. Clearly the 90s were a less stylish time than I remember.

    He made worse wardrobe errors than that. Skin-tight jeans at George Bush's ranch :o
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502

    HUZZAH.. BORIS HATERS PLEASE NOTE....

    YOU CANNOT BLAME BORIS FOR THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT.

    THANK YOU

    Give me time. I’m sure there’s an article where he supported it somewhere.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366

    As the UK government aren't (for some unknown reason) listening to either Philip or HYUFD, we will have to await developments.

    What will make for entertaining reading is the reaction of allies and future trading relationship partners like America. They made very clear how they will react to us crapping over the GFA and not honouring treaties.

    The UK government is edging to my position. Lord Frost all but confirmed this week that the conditions are right to invoke Article 16 if we choose to do so.

    Just as the UK government edged to my position pre-Brexit away from May's.

    If they'd just let me be in control of this whole thing, it would go so much smoother. Or not. 😉
    Lol - yes lets have the world expert in charge!

    The problem with "just invoke Article 16" is all the downstream consequences of doing so. Your position is blissfully naive - then again so was Frost's so yes maybe they should.

    I know that you are the fountain of all knowledge and that everything is simple, but in the real world it isn't simple. We can't just either invoke A16 and problem solved, or not stay aligned and just do what we want no matter how many times you say it.

    The classic fudge solution is coming. We are aligned now, so all barriers could be dropped now. We say that we reserve the right to diverge, and propose a 3rd party arbiter if either side raises a standards challenge in future. We all get along. So when our new trade deal gets signed with America and we protect food standards as we say we will, there are no problems.

    To get there we need to drop our absolutes. I dropped mine, can you drop yours, or is every mistake or difference of opinion to be met with "liar"?
    No, only outright lies are to be met with liar. They're few and far between, but I guess you've realised the error of your ways at the end of the last thread and I've already said kudos to you for retracting it.
    It wasn't a lie. It was a misread of the data. "The error of my ways"? Who are you again? SeanT does sock puppets, you sound as buffoonish as HYUFD at the moment.

    You know what, I said to you "Kudos to you on the retraction." And dropped the issue with that full stop, no criticism, no rubbing it in. Just kudos. You're the one who chose to bring it back up.

    If what you're saying now is that you misread the data then fair enough, that's an error. So I don't see why you're ashamed at having it put down to being an error.

    If you want to let it drop, I'd already dropped it. You chose to pick the scab, not me.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 66,703
    DavidL said:

    On topic I agree entirely with the thread header. Difficult but not impossible. An important prior agreement that was based on a mutual assumption that both countries would continue to operate within the EU framework. Not easy to square the circle of extremely close relations between the parts of Ireland and rather more distant ones between the UK and the EU.

    It is a mystery to me how anyone thought that this would be easy and I say that as someone who was in favour of Brexit. The honest answer is that our political leaders just didn't care enough about NI to want to address the problem properly.

    I prefer not to think about it, but that doesnt mean they should have done the same.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 3,936
    ydoethur said:

    Bah, The Hundred looks like it is here to stay.

    The total viewing figures on the BBC were only fractionally short of the peak of 1.7 million who watched England’s men Twenty20 fixture with Pakistan last Sunday on the BBC. Across all channels, 3.8 million are estimated to have watched some of the match last night, with one-third of those viewers female.

    The figures will delight the ECB who have faced years of criticism over locking cricket away behind the Sky paywall. There are only ten of 32 men’s matches live on the BBC and eight from the women’s tournament but the ECB will see those as crucial for building a following away from the mainstream cricket audience.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2021/07/22/bbc-sky-fire-unreadable-on-screen-hundred-graphics/

    Scene: The ECB boardroom.

    Hooray! We’ve got a massive television audience for the first time in years. We should have done this ages ago. What silly bastard sold the rights to a disgraced Aussie pornographer who...ah.
    The ECB have sold a crap product to the BBC.. I doubt the numbers will hold up longterm
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 2,170
    Will the % of adults who have been vaccinated shoot up today?

    No, I dot mean will lots of extra people get the jab, I mean will the % vaccinated change on the government COVID dashboard vaccination page?

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

    According to the header at the top of that page, from today they will use mid 2020 population estimates insted of mid 2019 population estimates, for calculating the %

    The numbers at the moment:

    46,388,744 first doses which equates to 88.1% of all over 18s implying a population of 52,654,647 people over the age of 18 in the UK.

    Now some have speculated with good reason, that many EU nationals who where formally living and working in the UK at the start of the pandemic, have left since then, partly as their jobs disappeared in the pandemic, partly because they wanted to be near there family's at a time of stress, and partly because of BREXIT. this may be overstated, but there are probably more who have left than arrived, we don't know haw many but will find out soon.

    If its 2 million, which is probably far to high, but I'll do the calculation:

    Then Population of 50,654,647 and 46,388,744 first jabs equates to 91.6% vaccinated adults.

    if its 1,111,599 people than:

    Then population of 51,543,049 and 46,388,744 first jabs equates to 90.00% vaccinated adults.

    Even if its just half a million people then that will push us to 90% ish

    Could be a lot less then half a million,

    Anybody what to speculation as to what the new population estimate will be?

    I'm going to guess just under a million, (based on absolutely nothing)
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 11,744
    DavidL said:

    On topic I agree entirely with the thread header. Difficult but not impossible. An important prior agreement that was based on a mutual assumption that both countries would continue to operate within the EU framework. Not easy to square the circle of extremely close relations between the parts of Ireland and rather more distant ones between the UK and the EU.

    It is a mystery to me how anyone thought that this would be easy and I say that as someone who was in favour of Brexit. The honest answer is that our political leaders just didn't care enough about NI to want to address the problem properly.

    What kills me about Frost is how he claims no-one knew this would happen. Kwarteng tried the same line on Beth Rigby and she pointed out the three former PMs who all repeatedly said this would happen.

    Its like Team Boris know they are the dumbest people in the room, but think that if they can normalise dumb that nobody will notice.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,745
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ..
    We can - justly - be very proud of the British vaccination programme, while I think also admitting that the gap between us and our European neighbours has narrowed somewhat.
    [snip]

    Unfortunately we've thrown away the advantage we had. Boris didn't do anything to stop Delta getting widely seeded when it was obvious he should, he screwed up the re-opening that would have been possible if we'd concentrated on the protection given to the (double-) jabbed, we've been slow to get the youngsters jabbed, and because of the mixed messaging and confusion we've now got one of the highest infection rates in Europe, thus triggering the pingdemic and negating all the advantages of being early in the vaccination programme.
    Tbh, the infection rates in Europe are about to or have already followed.
    Quite possibly. I'm not saying we'll end up worse than them in this latest wave, but that we've* thrown away the advantage of the initially much faster vaccination roll-out.

    * By 'we' I really mean 'he'.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 448
    The UK signed an agreement it never had any intention to honour . And yet the Bozo fan boys in here think this is acceptable behaviour and try to blame the EU for problems emanating from an agreement which no 10 and the useless Frost lauded as excellent .
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