48161 new cases today, down from 54486 the day before. Deaths 25, down from 41.
Damn! I thought peak was going to be 54,312. There must be some false positives!
What do we want here now anyway? I presume many more positive tests and less hospitalisations? I'm going with the idea that fewer deaths are good too.
Do we want open borders with hotspots so we can all catch and be smugly immune, or closed borders so we can be rude?
Boris is fucking this up.
Lots of infections in summer, few hospitalisations and even fewer deaths. Booster vaccines in September and October, ready for the winter (don’t forget most of the >45 will be AZ so can take PFE and benefit from 4 week ramp up)
I think I've had enough of Boris.
I wonder if he's in danger of identifying himself with covid, just as his hero was with the war? It's all very well having Spitfires and Vera Lynn but when 1945 came ...
I think the Tweet is unpleasant so I don't agree with that but Johnson doesn't look well at all, again? It can't be an easy job whatever my misgivings with Johnson himself - but he doesn't look well
48161 new cases today, down from 54486 the day before. Deaths 25, down from 41.
Damn! I thought peak was going to be 54,312. There must be some false positives!
What do we want here now anyway? I presume many more positive tests and less hospitalisations? I'm going with the idea that fewer deaths are good too.
Do we want open borders with hotspots so we can all catch and be smugly immune, or closed borders so we can be rude?
Boris is fucking this up.
Lots of infections in summer, few hospitalisations and even fewer deaths. Booster vaccines in September and October, ready for the winter (don’t forget most of the >45 will be AZ so can take PFE and benefit from 4 week ramp up)
I think I've had enough of Boris.
What he’s doing is rational but he doesn’t want to explain what he’s doing
I’ve not jumped on the anti GB news bandwagon either prior to it broadcasting or when it started broadcasting. However they have really done a poor job here. Supposedly free speech they are no better than the rest. They’re worse as they are hypocrites.
48161 new cases today, down from 54486 the day before. Deaths 25, down from 41.
Damn! I thought peak was going to be 54,312. There must be some false positives!
What do we want here now anyway? I presume many more positive tests and less hospitalisations? I'm going with the idea that fewer deaths are good too.
Do we want open borders with hotspots so we can all catch and be smugly immune, or closed borders so we can be rude?
Boris is fucking this up.
Lots of infections in summer, few hospitalisations and even fewer deaths. Booster vaccines in September and October, ready for the winter (don’t forget most of the >45 will be AZ so can take PFE and benefit from 4 week ramp up)
I think I've had enough of Boris.
What he’s doing is rational but he doesn’t want to explain what he’s doing
Your defending is becoming more and more pathetic, you're not even trying anymore Charles. Can you smell that?
48161 new cases today, down from 54486 the day before. Deaths 25, down from 41.
Damn! I thought peak was going to be 54,312. There must be some false positives!
What do we want here now anyway? I presume many more positive tests and less hospitalisations? I'm going with the idea that fewer deaths are good too.
Do we want open borders with hotspots so we can all catch and be smugly immune, or closed borders so we can be rude?
Boris is fucking this up.
Lots of infections in summer, few hospitalisations and even fewer deaths. Booster vaccines in September and October, ready for the winter (don’t forget most of the >45 will be AZ so can take PFE and benefit from 4 week ramp up)
I think I've had enough of Boris.
I wonder if he's in danger of identifying himself with covid, just as his hero was with the war? It's all very well having Spitfires and Vera Lynn but when 1945 came ...
He's doing so very well in many things. Poor, very poor, in some big things though. Not 'my' PM. However the opposition are total crap.
I think the Tweet is unpleasant so I don't agree with that but Johnson doesn't look well at all, again? It can't be an easy job whatever my misgivings with Johnson himself - but he doesn't look well
I think the tweet is unpleasant, but I’ll post it anyway !
Had they not self isolated it may have been damaging, now they are doing so which the poll shows most of the public agree with then I doubt it will be damaging.
If they brought forward ending self isolation for the double jabbed if they have come into contact with a Covid case from next month then it would not be an issue at all
Maybe but thousands, even millions have taken the decision to delete the app anyway
When you say bringing it forward from next month would not make it an issue, but the sheer scale of stupidity over this, and todays nonsense provides Boris and HMG opponents with gifts that just keep on coming
The time for Boris to move over is rapidly coming, and the sooner the better to be fair for many of moderate conservatives.
Of course, you will show some selective polling that Boris is the darling of the Country but every day he seems to be challenging that popularity, and losing goodwill by the bucket full and reminding so many of how easily 'Ratner' trashed his brand so quickly
It was Boris who won the Red Wall and Boris who is the most successful Tory election winner since Thatcher, once Thatcher went of course the Tories lost 3 out of 4 of the following general elections and even when they got back in in 2010 it was without a majority.
Similarly when Labour replaced Blair, its most successful election winner ever, with Brown in 2007 it then went on to lose 4 successive general elections and has still not got back in power yet.
Parties get win of leaders who win big general election majorities at their peril
With respect you just do not get it
HYUFD is right. Boris single handedly saved the conservative party in 2019 and reshaped it, against almost unthinkable odds, in to the election winning force that it is today.
That is not to say that he will never be manouvred out, he will - and probably relatively soon given his apparent lack of interest in the job. But trying to shift him after 2 years whilst he is doing well in the polls is really unthinkable and somewhat absurd.
Indeed, the 43.6% Boris won for the Tories in 2019 was the highest Tory voteshare since the 43.9% Thatcher got in 1979 and the Tories are still on 40%+ in every poll, getting rid of Boris now would be absurd.
This would be a perfectly acceptable position if the Conservative Party was in Opposition, and its leader’s only real measurable was to collect enough votes to form a government.
But Boris Johnson isn’t in Opposition, he is leading the government and has a major impact on our lives. More so in fact than any PM in living memory for all but a tiny fraction of us.
We should all have a higher standard and broader set of deliverables for him, than merely what polling score he can record. That is especially the case for party members and activists. Your (small) role in the governance of the country above us mere voters, means you have a duty to your fellow countrymen to ensure the gift they bestowed of a strong majority is wisely used. Because it is only activists and members who really have the power to change the course of a poor government in between elections.
I think the Tweet is unpleasant so I don't agree with that but Johnson doesn't look well at all, again? It can't be an easy job whatever my misgivings with Johnson himself - but he doesn't look well
On your point (not the Tweet) I'd have thought that Mr Johnson was only too well aware of his hero's final term in office.
I think the Tweet is unpleasant so I don't agree with that but Johnson doesn't look well at all, again? It can't be an easy job whatever my misgivings with Johnson himself - but he doesn't look well
I think the tweet is unpleasant, but I’ll post it anyway !
It was the only one I could find with the photo of Johnson. Care to comment as I made it clear I wasn't trying to make a point of the Tweet itself
I think the Tweet is unpleasant so I don't agree with that but Johnson doesn't look well at all, again? It can't be an easy job whatever my misgivings with Johnson himself - but he doesn't look well
I think the tweet is unpleasant, but I’ll post it anyway !
It was the only one I could find with the photo of Johnson. Care to comment as I made it clear I wasn't trying to make a point of the Tweet itself
Just seen the photo elsewhere - here it is, a little down (at present)
48161 new cases today, down from 54486 the day before. Deaths 25, down from 41.
Damn! I thought peak was going to be 54,312. There must be some false positives!
What do we want here now anyway? I presume many more positive tests and less hospitalisations? I'm going with the idea that fewer deaths are good too.
Do we want open borders with hotspots so we can all catch and be smugly immune, or closed borders so we can be rude?
Boris is fucking this up.
Lots of infections in summer, few hospitalisations and even fewer deaths. Booster vaccines in September and October, ready for the winter (don’t forget most of the >45 will be AZ so can take PFE and benefit from 4 week ramp up)
I think I've had enough of Boris.
What he’s doing is rational but he doesn’t want to explain what he’s doing
Your defending is becoming more and more pathetic, you're not even trying anymore Charles. Can you smell that?
From a purely public health perspective it makes 100% sense to try and get the majority of infections during the summer when hospital utilisation is lower.
It would have been nice to have more vaccines done but I suspect we are hitting the ceiling there.
It’s a gamble but a rational one.
But Boris doesn’t want to say that publicly because the media will attack him. So he blathers on.
(FWIW, I known Boris slightly since the mid 90s, and I dislike him. He’s a braggart and has a tendency to be a bit of a bully. I’m not a member of the conservatives but encouraged my mother to vote for Hunt.)
I think the Tweet is unpleasant so I don't agree with that but Johnson doesn't look well at all, again? It can't be an easy job whatever my misgivings with Johnson himself - but he doesn't look well
I think the tweet is unpleasant, but I’ll post it anyway !
It was the only one I could find with the photo of Johnson. Care to comment as I made it clear I wasn't trying to make a point of the Tweet itself
He doesn’t appear to be in the rudest of health but is a job that seems to prematurely age everyone who takes it on. In fact it looks like his pictures at the time he was ill last year.
Johnson says he only ‘briefly’ considered not isolating: Boris Johnson says he only looked “briefly into the idea” of avoiding self-isolation through a daily contact testing pilot after being pinged by NHS test and trace.
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Johnson says he only ‘briefly’ considered not isolating: Boris Johnson says he only looked “briefly into the idea” of avoiding self-isolation through a daily contact testing pilot after being pinged by NHS test and trace.
Presumably that “looking into” comprised considering “can I get away with it”?
Johnson says he only ‘briefly’ considered not isolating: Boris Johnson says he only looked “briefly into the idea” of avoiding self-isolation through a daily contact testing pilot after being pinged by NHS test and trace.
I think the Tweet is unpleasant so I don't agree with that but Johnson doesn't look well at all, again? It can't be an easy job whatever my misgivings with Johnson himself - but he doesn't look well
I'm amused by people complaining about what other people look like (often from a carefully-chosen) photo, who themselves hide behind pictures of other people in their profile.
It's almost as bad as people anonymously posting on forums using the names of famous people, particularly Victorian engineers. Utter scum, they are.
I think the Tweet is unpleasant so I don't agree with that but Johnson doesn't look well at all, again? It can't be an easy job whatever my misgivings with Johnson himself - but he doesn't look well
On your point (not the Tweet) I'd have thought that Mr Johnson was only too well aware of his hero's final term in office.
If the Prime Minister relies on that leading biography, The Churchill Factor, by Boris Johnson, he may well be entirely unaware of Churchill's second term in office. So far as I can see from skimming the table of contents, it is not mentioned, let alone covered.
CNN: Johnson's pandemic has been a real mixed bag. Presiding over one of the developed world's highest death rates, a complete meltdown in testing, and complicated and confusing public messaging, he has been rescued only by a speedy vaccine rollout.
Now is the moment he finds out if his great vaccine victory really was the saving grace it appeared not so long ago.
If it's not, he has to make a very difficult choice: stick to his line of accepting his own people dying, or reverse on a stone cold promise to a nation that has become divided and disillusioned. And should that happen, he might wonder whether taking this gamble when the pandemic is far from over was that good an idea after all.
48161 new cases today, down from 54486 the day before. Deaths 25, down from 41.
Damn! I thought peak was going to be 54,312. There must be some false positives!
What do we want here now anyway? I presume many more positive tests and less hospitalisations? I'm going with the idea that fewer deaths are good too.
Do we want open borders with hotspots so we can all catch and be smugly immune, or closed borders so we can be rude?
Boris is fucking this up.
Lots of infections in summer, few hospitalisations and even fewer deaths. Booster vaccines in September and October, ready for the winter (don’t forget most of the >45 will be AZ so can take PFE and benefit from 4 week ramp up)
I think I've had enough of Boris.
What he’s doing is rational but he doesn’t want to explain what he’s doing
Your defending is becoming more and more pathetic, you're not even trying anymore Charles. Can you smell that?
From a purely public health perspective it makes 100% sense to try and get the majority of infections during the summer when hospital utilisation is lower.
It would have been nice to have more vaccines done but I suspect we are hitting the ceiling there.
It’s a gamble but a rational one.
But Boris doesn’t want to say that publicly because the media will attack him. So he blathers on.
(FWIW, I known Boris slightly since the mid 90s, and I dislike him. He’s a braggart and has a tendency to be a bit of a bully. I’m not a member of the conservatives but encouraged my mother to vote for Hunt.)
It’s a frustration to me that the current policy has quite a lot of logic to it, and on balance I would probably have done the same thing, but because it’s Boris - who has blundered into various policies largely by accident - the knee jerk reaction of most people is to condemn it.
The trouble is what are the alternatives? Reimpose some restrictions (simply not opening up fully tomorrow wouldn’t be enough) until cases come down again, big then what? The balancing act is between the benefit of a couple of months of extra vaccine induced immunity in the population set against the increased risk of a surge during autumn and winter potentially with yet another variant.
The big priority in any case, surely, must be to help vaccinate the rest of the world as quickly as possible. There’s an unbecoming insularity in the way both government cheerleaders and opponents act as if the UK is the only country facing Covid-19.
Well, his figures on cases may be right, but even so his logic seems to be that actually it’s better to have it now and get the peak out of the way by September.
That’s the strategy in a nutshell
The infamous interview before the first lockdown on Channel 4 News when Prof John Edmunds said that herd immunity was the only way out in the long run has stood up very well, despite the attacks he got at the time.
I am frustrated that some people think that herd immunity and vaccination are different things. In the U.K. were are aiming for herd immunity mostly via vaccination, with a helping of infection in the mix. Are some people confused, and referring to herd immunity as only something that comes from infection?
Lots of people don’t understand what “herd immunity” means. Hence things like PT’s theory about the virus “picking off the unvaccinated/filling in the gaps” even after herd immunity has been reached.
My understanding is that the point of herd immunity is that the “vulnerable” unvaccinated and/or previously uninflected are actually protected.
My understanding is that herd immunity is not a boolean on/off switch. There can be communities with herd immunity and and communities without it. Also it transitions, it doesn't just go from nothing to full overnight.
Eg take Measles for example. It requires 95% vaccination to achieve herd immunity. If there's 5 schools of equal size, four of which have 99% of kids vaccinated and 1 of which has 80% of kids vaccinated then overall the vaccination rate is over 95% as a whole. As a result as a whole there ought to herd immunity in theory.
However in reality the four schools with 99% vaccination will have effective herd immunity, the one school with only 80% vaccination will not. The 20% of antivaxxers in that community will have ensured there won't be herd immunity in that school, that community, even though other locations elsewhere have got more than is needed bringing up the average.
There will be some communities in the UK with pretty good herd immunity now, but other communities now that don't.
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
It would do us all a lot of good if the Tories would be out of power for a while and then go back to being sensible and moderate once again. Labour is slowly getting over its nutty period it seems, time for the same with the Tories.
LAB need to get past its 'nutty period' and be trusted by the voters
Then it can win. Not there yet.
Whether it's as dramatic as Kinnock at Bournemouth, Starmer has to do something which draws a clear line under the Corbyn period.
The problem he has is, having adopted a stance of "constructive Opposition" in a time of national crisis (and, contrary to many on here, I think Starmer has done well), to evolve that into a sense of what a Labour Britain in 2024 is going to look like.
If I were him, I wouldn't go for anything too radical - the future, better would be where I'd start.
You're right that Starmer needs to avoid anything that is perceived to be too radical. Doesn't want to scare the horses and all that. But he does need a policy offer that is distinctive and identifiably Labour. The Tories have tried to steal some of Labour's clothes with the levelling up stuff, which makes it harder. But a policy platform around a better future mapped out around key themes (dignity at work, better leisure, supporting families, health, education, public transport, dignity in old age - as examples) may well do the trick.
CNN: Johnson's pandemic has been a real mixed bag. Presiding over one of the developed world's highest death rates, a complete meltdown in testing, and complicated and confusing public messaging, he has been rescued only by a speedy vaccine rollout.
Now is the moment he finds out if his great vaccine victory really was the saving grace it appeared not so long ago.
If it's not, he has to make a very difficult choice: stick to his line of accepting his own people dying, or reverse on a stone cold promise to a nation that has become divided and disillusioned. And should that happen, he might wonder whether taking this gamble when the pandemic is far from over was that good an idea after all.
What a load of Remainer SHITE, no doubt by Luke "Remoaner" McGee?
Claim:
"Presiding over one of the developed world's highest death rates"
Fact:
Developed world's highest death rates, in order
Bulgaria Serbia Lithuania Czechia Poland Slovakia Bosnia Hungary Montenegro Croatia Italy United States Portugal Spain Slovenia Latvia Britain
I think one of the reasons “herd immunity” triggers such negative reactions in public opinion is the word “herd”. Treating us like animals in other words.
Yet it’s a wonderful concept. Enough people are immune through infection and vaccination that those who aren’t are still protected from community spread.
I think the Tweet is unpleasant so I don't agree with that but Johnson doesn't look well at all, again? It can't be an easy job whatever my misgivings with Johnson himself - but he doesn't look well
I'm amused by people complaining about what other people look like (often from a carefully-chosen) photo, who themselves hide behind pictures of other people in their profile.
It's almost as bad as people anonymously posting on forums using the names of famous people, particularly Victorian engineers. Utter scum, they are.
Is the fact the Sottish surge seems over, or at least subsiding at present, not something to take heart on for the rest of the UK? It ramped up very dramatically very quickly and is now falling off almost as suddenly with the only real explanation anyone could come up with is the football crossed with Delta.
It sort of feels like we just have to hold our nerve a little longer.
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
OT Open golf winner Collin Morikawa has now won two grand slam tournaments on debut, so looks nailed on for Overseas SPotY.
Interestingly, Tiger Woods only won that once (in 2000, when he won three majors). I guess his second spell of dominance coincided with Federer’s dominance.
They won’t give it to him, but I think it should be Tom Brady.
Actually, it will almost certainly be Djokovic.
Don't forget the Olympics. One jaw-dropping performance to win Gold and all bets are off.
Has everyone forgotten Rachael Blackmore already? If Hollie Doyle can finish 3rd last year just for coming 4th in the Flat Jockey's Championship then winning the Grand National (and making a lot of punters a few quid) should see her win Overseas Personality/World Sports Star easily regardless of what happens in the Olympics.
Is the fact the Sottish surge seems over, or at least subsiding at present, not something to take heart on for the rest of the UK? It ramped up vert dramatically very quickly and is now falling off almost as suddenly with the only real explanation anyone could come up with is the football crossed with Delta.
It sort of feels like we just have to hold our nerve a little longer.
I just did picnic thing with friends in Green Park (lovely wine) and that was the general attitude: get on with it, now. It is never going to be easy, let's take the punches and move on
It won't be comfortable but better do it now than the autumn
Is the fact the Sottish surge seems over, or at least subsiding at present, not something to take heart on for the rest of the UK? It ramped up vert dramatically very quickly and is now falling off almost as suddenly with the only real explanation anyone could come up with is the football crossed with Delta.
It sort of feels like we just have to hold our nerve a little longer.
Scotland got a few weeks less of football than England, but probably more importantly a few weeks less of schooling too.
We've got 4 weeks now without football, outside in the sunshine, and with the schools closed. Then the new football season begins and we'll have full stadium etc just before schools return.
Except in Manchester. The Etihad Stadium is never full, unless its because Coldplay are playing.
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
The counter factual is that if the uk hadnt been showing them up the eu would have continued at their liesurely snails pace....not provable either way but boy they sure werent in a hurry till the comparisons came out
CNN: Johnson's pandemic has been a real mixed bag. Presiding over one of the developed world's highest death rates, a complete meltdown in testing, and complicated and confusing public messaging, he has been rescued only by a speedy vaccine rollout.
Now is the moment he finds out if his great vaccine victory really was the saving grace it appeared not so long ago.
If it's not, he has to make a very difficult choice: stick to his line of accepting his own people dying, or reverse on a stone cold promise to a nation that has become divided and disillusioned. And should that happen, he might wonder whether taking this gamble when the pandemic is far from over was that good an idea after all.
What a load of Remainer SHITE, no doubt by Luke "Remoaner" McGee?
Claim:
"Presiding over one of the developed world's highest death rates"
Fact:
Developed world's highest death rates, in order
Bulgaria Serbia Lithuania Czechia Poland Slovakia Bosnia Hungary Montenegro Croatia Italy United States Portugal Spain Slovenia Latvia Britain
Much as i generally quite like CNN (although more so their TV channel than their website news) I think they quite like writing critical things about the UK (even more so a UK with somebody like Johnson as PM who represents an easy target for their core audience) because it just makes themselves feel a bit better about all the problems in the US. It's something of a comfort blanket, convincing themselves that US problems aren't uniquely bad. The most egregious stuff is where they have a tendency to project US racial issues into the UK, but sometimes other issues present themselves.
Is the fact the Sottish surge seems over, or at least subsiding at present, not something to take heart on for the rest of the UK? It ramped up very dramatically very quickly and is now falling off almost as suddenly with the only real explanation anyone could come up with is the football crossed with Delta.
It sort of feels like we just have to hold our nerve a little longer.
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
We gained psychologically, in several ways. We gained an early sense of control, we got the pleasure of a national success, we enjoyed the exhilaration of fighting back - and we will benefit in future from our new national excellence at vaccines. These are not small things
We have also hit vax hesitancy early so we have more time to work out a way around - tho Macron seems to be better at this: just make the fucking jabs mandatory, or as near as dammit. I don't care any more
CNN: Johnson's pandemic has been a real mixed bag. Presiding over one of the developed world's highest death rates, a complete meltdown in testing, and complicated and confusing public messaging, he has been rescued only by a speedy vaccine rollout.
Now is the moment he finds out if his great vaccine victory really was the saving grace it appeared not so long ago.
If it's not, he has to make a very difficult choice: stick to his line of accepting his own people dying, or reverse on a stone cold promise to a nation that has become divided and disillusioned. And should that happen, he might wonder whether taking this gamble when the pandemic is far from over was that good an idea after all.
What a load of Remainer SHITE, no doubt by Luke "Remoaner" McGee?
Claim:
"Presiding over one of the developed world's highest death rates"
Fact:
Developed world's highest death rates, in order
Bulgaria Serbia Lithuania Czechia Poland Slovakia Bosnia Hungary Montenegro Croatia Italy United States Portugal Spain Slovenia Latvia Britain
Much as i generally quite like CNN (although more so their TV channel than their website news) I think they quite like writing critical things about the UK (even more so a UK with somebody like Johnson as PM who represents an easy target for their core audience) because it just makes themselves feel a bit better about all the problems in the US. It's something of a comfort blanket, convincing themselves that US problems aren't uniquely bad. The most egregious stuff is where they have a tendency to project US racial issues into the UK, but sometimes other issues present themselves.
We’d never do the same with the US news; jolly sure that we wouldn’t. That would be very poor show.
CNN: Johnson's pandemic has been a real mixed bag. Presiding over one of the developed world's highest death rates, a complete meltdown in testing, and complicated and confusing public messaging, he has been rescued only by a speedy vaccine rollout.
Now is the moment he finds out if his great vaccine victory really was the saving grace it appeared not so long ago.
If it's not, he has to make a very difficult choice: stick to his line of accepting his own people dying, or reverse on a stone cold promise to a nation that has become divided and disillusioned. And should that happen, he might wonder whether taking this gamble when the pandemic is far from over was that good an idea after all.
What a load of Remainer SHITE, no doubt by Luke "Remoaner" McGee?
Claim:
"Presiding over one of the developed world's highest death rates"
Fact:
Developed world's highest death rates, in order
Bulgaria Serbia Lithuania Czechia Poland Slovakia Bosnia Hungary Montenegro Croatia Italy United States Portugal Spain Slovenia Latvia Britain
Much as i generally quite like CNN (although more so their TV channel than their website news) I think they quite like writing critical things about the UK (even more so a UK with somebody like Johnson as PM who represents an easy target for their core audience) because it just makes themselves feel a bit better about all the problems in the US. It's something of a comfort blanket, convincing themselves that US problems aren't uniquely bad. The most egregious stuff is where they have a tendency to project US racial issues into the UK, but sometimes other issues present themselves.
Absolutely. It is exactly the same with the (equally liberal left) New York Times, though the NYT is considerably worse
French-bashing articles are popular in the UK press for the same reason, and they often emerge at times of national self doubt in the UK - look, it's worse in France!
America is now in palpable decline, in so many ways. And life for the average American is now obviously inferior - to anyone who travels - to life in western Europe, or even, sometimes, east Asia. Ironically, passport holding coastal liberal Americans must know this more than stay-at-home Texan Republicans, a fact probably rammed home as they are forced to shelter in place for 18 months
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
Not sure about this. If you give vaccines credit for preventing deaths over the last 5-6 months then the headstart we got has saved tens of thousands of lives relative to the EU. And that's even with us being hit with the alpha variant long before it was really feeding into the EU figures. If you take out the first wave in March-June 2020, where (with allowance for reporting differences) we really were one of the standout worst performers, then we really are very middle of the road in European terms for deaths.
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
We gained psychologically, in several ways. We gained an early sense of control, we got the pleasure of a national success, we enjoyed the exhilaration of fighting back - and we will benefit in future from our new national excellence at vaccines. These are not small things
We have also hit vax hesitancy early so we have more time to work out a way around - tho Macron seems to be better at this: just make the fucking jabs mandatory, or as near as dammit. I don't care any more
Scraping the barrel, though, when you consider that back in the spring the general expectation was that the UK would be basking in a summer free of the virus while those pesky Europeans would still be suffering the third wave.
I think one of the reasons “herd immunity” triggers such negative reactions in public opinion is the word “herd”. Treating us like animals in other words.
Yet it’s a wonderful concept. Enough people are immune through infection and vaccination that those who aren’t are still protected from community spread.
The question then presents itself. Why isn't it working?
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
The counter factual is that if the uk hadnt been showing them up the eu would have continued at their liesurely snails pace....not provable either way but boy they sure werent in a hurry till the comparisons came out
I think there's a fair amount of truth in that. Who says healthy competition isn't good for everybody?
On the subject of the EU, what doesn't get a lot of attention is the ridiculous difference in vaccine uptakes between Eastern and Western Europe.
In the West, you have Iceland (90% of adults with at least one jab) and the UK (89%) leading the pack, with Belgium (83%) and the Netherlands (82%) not far behind. Germany, France, Italy and Spain are in a group behind at between 67% and 75%.
Now look to the East... Latvia is at only 42%, Romania at 31% (which is basically identical to the number double jabbed), while Bulgaria is at a barely believable 18% and jabbing has basically ground to a halt there.
CNN: Johnson's pandemic has been a real mixed bag. Presiding over one of the developed world's highest death rates, a complete meltdown in testing, and complicated and confusing public messaging, he has been rescued only by a speedy vaccine rollout.
Now is the moment he finds out if his great vaccine victory really was the saving grace it appeared not so long ago.
If it's not, he has to make a very difficult choice: stick to his line of accepting his own people dying, or reverse on a stone cold promise to a nation that has become divided and disillusioned. And should that happen, he might wonder whether taking this gamble when the pandemic is far from over was that good an idea after all.
What a load of Remainer SHITE, no doubt by Luke "Remoaner" McGee?
Claim:
"Presiding over one of the developed world's highest death rates"
Fact:
Developed world's highest death rates, in order
Bulgaria Serbia Lithuania Czechia Poland Slovakia Bosnia Hungary Montenegro Croatia Italy United States Portugal Spain Slovenia Latvia Britain
Much as i generally quite like CNN (although more so their TV channel than their website news) I think they quite like writing critical things about the UK (even more so a UK with somebody like Johnson as PM who represents an easy target for their core audience) because it just makes themselves feel a bit better about all the problems in the US. It's something of a comfort blanket, convincing themselves that US problems aren't uniquely bad. The most egregious stuff is where they have a tendency to project US racial issues into the UK, but sometimes other issues present themselves.
Absolutely. It is exactly the same with the (equally liberal left) New York Times, though the NYT is considerably worse
French-bashing articles are popular in the UK press for the same reason, and they often emerge at times of national self doubt in the UK - look, it's worse in France!
America is now in palpable decline, in so many ways. And life for the average American is now obviously inferior - to anyone who travels - to life in western Europe, or even, sometimes, east Asia. Ironically, passport holding coastal liberal Americans must know this more than stay-at-home Texan Republicans, a fact probably rammed home as they are forced to shelter in place for 18 months
Hence this odd Anglophobia
It is also the fact that now Trump has gone, Johnson is the main populist rightwing leader left in the G7, so much of the left liberal US media has moved onto attacking him, especially those with an international audience like CNN and the NYT
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
I keep repeating that it is virtually impossible for LAB/SKS to win a majority and you never mention that.
I note it. I also note that every thread pretty much is anti Boris. I have also said I really don't like Boris, but no mention is made of the uselessness of the likes of Rayner who has made some really asinine remarks and she is not the only one.
You as site only can post what you like about what you like, I am just pointing out that it's really one sided at the moment and that is fair comment because it is.
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
We gained psychologically, in several ways. We gained an early sense of control, we got the pleasure of a national success, we enjoyed the exhilaration of fighting back - and we will benefit in future from our new national excellence at vaccines. These are not small things
We have also hit vax hesitancy early so we have more time to work out a way around - tho Macron seems to be better at this: just make the fucking jabs mandatory, or as near as dammit. I don't care any more
Scraping the barrel, though, when you consider that back in the spring the general expectation was that the UK would be basking in a summer free of the virus while those pesky Europeans would still be suffering the third wave.
It hasn’t turned out like that, at all.
It's not "scraping the barrel", we have gained very serious advantages, however you are right that the people who thought we would be basking in freedom were talking bollocks
It's a basic law of Covid, as soon as you get in any way smug about the virus, it comes back to haunt you, and make you regret your boasts. This has been true almost universally
Had they not self isolated it may have been damaging, now they are doing so which the poll shows most of the public agree with then I doubt it will be damaging.
If they brought forward ending self isolation for the double jabbed if they have come into contact with a Covid case from next month then it would not be an issue at all
Maybe but thousands, even millions have taken the decision to delete the app anyway
When you say bringing it forward from next month would not make it an issue, but the sheer scale of stupidity over this, and todays nonsense provides Boris and HMG opponents with gifts that just keep on coming
The time for Boris to move over is rapidly coming, and the sooner the better to be fair for many of moderate conservatives.
Of course, you will show some selective polling that Boris is the darling of the Country but every day he seems to be challenging that popularity, and losing goodwill by the bucket full and reminding so many of how easily 'Ratner' trashed his brand so quickly
It was Boris who won the Red Wall and Boris who is the most successful Tory election winner since Thatcher, once Thatcher went of course the Tories lost 3 out of 4 of the following general elections and even when they got back in in 2010 it was without a majority.
Similarly when Labour replaced Blair, its most successful election winner ever, with Brown in 2007 it then went on to lose 4 successive general elections and has still not got back in power yet.
Parties get win of leaders who win big general election majorities at their peril
With respect you just do not get it
HYUFD is right. Boris single handedly saved the conservative party in 2019 and reshaped it, against almost unthinkable odds, in to the election winning force that it is today.
That is not to say that he will never be manouvred out, he will - and probably relatively soon given his apparent lack of interest in the job. But trying to shift him after 2 years whilst he is doing well in the polls is really unthinkable and somewhat absurd.
Indeed, the 43.6% Boris won for the Tories in 2019 was the highest Tory voteshare since the 43.9% Thatcher got in 1979 and the Tories are still on 40%+ in every poll, getting rid of Boris now would be absurd.
This would be a perfectly acceptable position if the Conservative Party was in Opposition, and its leader’s only real measurable was to collect enough votes to form a government.
But Boris Johnson isn’t in Opposition, he is leading the government and has a major impact on our lives. More so in fact than any PM in living memory for all but a tiny fraction of us.
We should all have a higher standard and broader set of deliverables for him, than merely what polling score he can record. That is especially the case for party members and activists. Your (small) role in the governance of the country above us mere voters, means you have a duty to your fellow countrymen to ensure the gift they bestowed of a strong majority is wisely used. Because it is only activists and members who really have the power to change the course of a poor government in between elections.
That you cannot see this speaks volumes.
The UK government under Johnson has got more of its population double vaccinated than almost any other western nation and no party that I can think of has willingly got rid of a leader with a big poll lead whether in power or not
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
The counter factual is that if the uk hadnt been showing them up the eu would have continued at their liesurely snails pace....not provable either way but boy they sure werent in a hurry till the comparisons came out
I think there's a fair amount of truth in that. Who says healthy competition isn't good for everybody?
On the subject of the EU, what doesn't get a lot of attention is the ridiculous difference in vaccine uptakes between Eastern and Western Europe.
In the West, you have Iceland (90% of adults with at least one jab) and the UK (89%) leading the pack, with Belgium (83%) and the Netherlands (82%) not far behind. Germany, France, Italy and Spain are in a group behind at between 67% and 75%.
Now look to the East... Latvia is at only 42%, Romania at 31% (which is basically identical to the number double jabbed), while Bulgaria is at a barely believable 18% and jabbing has basically ground to a halt there.
The East is going to get hammered by Delta.
Going to? The East already has been very hammered.
Look at the excess death tolls and given the UK's population density, demographics and levels of obesity I see little reason that without the vaccine procurement the UK wouldn't already be at over 300 deaths per 100k like most Eastern European nations instead of ~120 deaths per 100k
Is the fact the Sottish surge seems over, or at least subsiding at present, not something to take heart on for the rest of the UK? It ramped up vert dramatically very quickly and is now falling off almost as suddenly with the only real explanation anyone could come up with is the football crossed with Delta.
It sort of feels like we just have to hold our nerve a little longer.
Scotland got a few weeks less of football than England, but probably more importantly a few weeks less of schooling too.
We've got 4 weeks now without football, outside in the sunshine, and with the schools closed. Then the new football season begins and we'll have full stadium etc just before schools return.
Except in Manchester. The Etihad Stadium is never full, unless its because Coldplay are playing.
I wouldn’t worry about the new football season. It’s very different from a national semi and final were half the country congregated to watch. Yes there will be 30 to 60K crowds, but mostly outside.
On topic, how reliable do we think a poll taken on a (very nice) Sunday is? @Isam always says that the politically engaged are always over represented in polls; it may be even more true for this one.
I think one of the reasons “herd immunity” triggers such negative reactions in public opinion is the word “herd”. Treating us like animals in other words.
Yet it’s a wonderful concept. Enough people are immune through infection and vaccination that those who aren’t are still protected from community spread.
The question then presents itself. Why isn't it working?
Is the fact the Sottish surge seems over, or at least subsiding at present, not something to take heart on for the rest of the UK? It ramped up vert dramatically very quickly and is now falling off almost as suddenly with the only real explanation anyone could come up with is the football crossed with Delta.
It sort of feels like we just have to hold our nerve a little longer.
Scotland got a few weeks less of football than England, but probably more importantly a few weeks less of schooling too.
We've got 4 weeks now without football, outside in the sunshine, and with the schools closed. Then the new football season begins and we'll have full stadium etc just before schools return.
Except in Manchester. The Etihad Stadium is never full, unless its because Coldplay are playing.
I wouldn’t worry about the new football season. It’s very different from a national semi and final were half the country congregated to watch. Yes there will be 30 to 60K crowds, but mostly outside.
I think what people get wrong about the football is thinking it was about the crowds. It wasn't. It was the people congregating in pubs and at home to watch it on TV.
People who moan about the headers on PB are free, presumably, to post elsewhere.
The PB Tory supply is inexhaustible, so they won’t be missed.
I was just pointing out the lack of balance which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. You will be pleased to know my posting on the site has reduced to almost zero. I hope it keeps you happy.
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
The counter factual is that if the uk hadnt been showing them up the eu would have continued at their liesurely snails pace....not provable either way but boy they sure werent in a hurry till the comparisons came out
I think there's a fair amount of truth in that. Who says healthy competition isn't good for everybody?
On the subject of the EU, what doesn't get a lot of attention is the ridiculous difference in vaccine uptakes between Eastern and Western Europe.
In the West, you have Iceland (90% of adults with at least one jab) and the UK (89%) leading the pack, with Belgium (83%) and the Netherlands (82%) not far behind. Germany, France, Italy and Spain are in a group behind at between 67% and 75%.
Now look to the East... Latvia is at only 42%, Romania at 31% (which is basically identical to the number double jabbed), while Bulgaria is at a barely believable 18% and jabbing has basically ground to a halt there.
The East is going to get hammered by Delta.
A lot of the differences are obviously cultural, but isn't another major factor that most of the poorer countries in Eastern Europe put all their money down on the cheaper AZ vaccines. Given what happened subsequently i doubt that the better performing countries would be doing as well as they are if they weren't awash with Pfizer.
Is the fact the Sottish surge seems over, or at least subsiding at present, not something to take heart on for the rest of the UK? It ramped up vert dramatically very quickly and is now falling off almost as suddenly with the only real explanation anyone could come up with is the football crossed with Delta.
It sort of feels like we just have to hold our nerve a little longer.
Scotland got a few weeks less of football than England, but probably more importantly a few weeks less of schooling too.
We've got 4 weeks now without football, outside in the sunshine, and with the schools closed. Then the new football season begins and we'll have full stadium etc just before schools return.
Except in Manchester. The Etihad Stadium is never full, unless its because Coldplay are playing.
I wouldn’t worry about the new football season. It’s very different from a national semi and final were half the country congregated to watch. Yes there will be 30 to 60K crowds, but mostly outside.
I'm not worried, I'm looking forwards to it.
And there'll be people congregated to watch Liverpool or Man Utd games at least.
On topic, how reliable do we think a poll taken on a (very nice) Sunday is? @Isam always says that the politically engaged are always over represented in polls; it may be even more true for this one.
Ah, @Isam still banned. Don't know why, but more's the pity.
What advantages have we actually gained? Are we any more free or open than elsewhere in Europe? It doesn't seem like it
Yes we are. We're the most open nation in Europe.
This is news to me. The Balearics felt, if anything, slightly more open than London two weeks ago, when I was there. Meanwhile the Dutch have been walking around nightclubs with no masks for weeks - ie definitely more open than us (tho they have now backpedalled)
I think most of affluent western Europe is in a largely similar position
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
The counter factual is that if the uk hadnt been showing them up the eu would have continued at their liesurely snails pace....not provable either way but boy they sure werent in a hurry till the comparisons came out
I think there's a fair amount of truth in that. Who says healthy competition isn't good for everybody?
On the subject of the EU, what doesn't get a lot of attention is the ridiculous difference in vaccine uptakes between Eastern and Western Europe.
In the West, you have Iceland (90% of adults with at least one jab) and the UK (89%) leading the pack, with Belgium (83%) and the Netherlands (82%) not far behind. Germany, France, Italy and Spain are in a group behind at between 67% and 75%.
Now look to the East... Latvia is at only 42%, Romania at 31% (which is basically identical to the number double jabbed), while Bulgaria is at a barely believable 18% and jabbing has basically ground to a halt there.
The East is going to get hammered by Delta.
A lot of the differences are obviously cultural, but isn't another major factor that most of the poorer countries in Eastern Europe put all their money down on the cheaper AZ vaccines. Given what happened subsequently i doubt that the better performing countries would be doing as well as they are if they weren't awash with Pfizer.
And who put people off Azn....would that be macron , handlesblatt etc?
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
The counter factual is that if the uk hadnt been showing them up the eu would have continued at their liesurely snails pace....not provable either way but boy they sure werent in a hurry till the comparisons came out
I think there's a fair amount of truth in that. Who says healthy competition isn't good for everybody?
On the subject of the EU, what doesn't get a lot of attention is the ridiculous difference in vaccine uptakes between Eastern and Western Europe.
In the West, you have Iceland (90% of adults with at least one jab) and the UK (89%) leading the pack, with Belgium (83%) and the Netherlands (82%) not far behind. Germany, France, Italy and Spain are in a group behind at between 67% and 75%.
Now look to the East... Latvia is at only 42%, Romania at 31% (which is basically identical to the number double jabbed), while Bulgaria is at a barely believable 18% and jabbing has basically ground to a halt there.
The East is going to get hammered by Delta.
A lot of the differences are obviously cultural, but isn't another major factor that most of the poorer countries in Eastern Europe put all their money down on the cheaper AZ vaccines. Given what happened subsequently i doubt that the better performing countries would be doing as well as they are if they weren't awash with Pfizer.
No absolutely not, AZN is a great vaccine. Most of the UK's rollout has been that.
On topic, how reliable do we think a poll taken on a (very nice) Sunday is? @Isam always says that the politically engaged are always over represented in polls; it may be even more true for this one.
Ah, @Isam still banned. Don't know why, but more's the pity.
Is the fact the Sottish surge seems over, or at least subsiding at present, not something to take heart on for the rest of the UK? It ramped up vert dramatically very quickly and is now falling off almost as suddenly with the only real explanation anyone could come up with is the football crossed with Delta.
It sort of feels like we just have to hold our nerve a little longer.
Scotland got a few weeks less of football than England, but probably more importantly a few weeks less of schooling too.
We've got 4 weeks now without football, outside in the sunshine, and with the schools closed. Then the new football season begins and we'll have full stadium etc just before schools return.
Except in Manchester. The Etihad Stadium is never full, unless its because Coldplay are playing.
I wouldn’t worry about the new football season. It’s very different from a national semi and final were half the country congregated to watch. Yes there will be 30 to 60K crowds, but mostly outside.
I'm not worried, I'm looking forwards to it.
And there'll be people congregated to watch Liverpool or Man Utd games at least.
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
The counter factual is that if the uk hadnt been showing them up the eu would have continued at their liesurely snails pace....not provable either way but boy they sure werent in a hurry till the comparisons came out
I think there's a fair amount of truth in that. Who says healthy competition isn't good for everybody?
On the subject of the EU, what doesn't get a lot of attention is the ridiculous difference in vaccine uptakes between Eastern and Western Europe.
In the West, you have Iceland (90% of adults with at least one jab) and the UK (89%) leading the pack, with Belgium (83%) and the Netherlands (82%) not far behind. Germany, France, Italy and Spain are in a group behind at between 67% and 75%.
Now look to the East... Latvia is at only 42%, Romania at 31% (which is basically identical to the number double jabbed), while Bulgaria is at a barely believable 18% and jabbing has basically ground to a halt there.
The East is going to get hammered by Delta.
A lot of the differences are obviously cultural, but isn't another major factor that most of the poorer countries in Eastern Europe put all their money down on the cheaper AZ vaccines. Given what happened subsequently i doubt that the better performing countries would be doing as well as they are if they weren't awash with Pfizer.
And who put people off Azn....would that be macron , handlesblatt etc?
Had they not self isolated it may have been damaging, now they are doing so which the poll shows most of the public agree with then I doubt it will be damaging.
If they brought forward ending self isolation for the double jabbed if they have come into contact with a Covid case from next month then it would not be an issue at all
Maybe but thousands, even millions have taken the decision to delete the app anyway
When you say bringing it forward from next month would not make it an issue, but the sheer scale of stupidity over this, and todays nonsense provides Boris and HMG opponents with gifts that just keep on coming
The time for Boris to move over is rapidly coming, and the sooner the better to be fair for many of moderate conservatives.
Of course, you will show some selective polling that Boris is the darling of the Country but every day he seems to be challenging that popularity, and losing goodwill by the bucket full and reminding so many of how easily 'Ratner' trashed his brand so quickly
It was Boris who won the Red Wall and Boris who is the most successful Tory election winner since Thatcher, once Thatcher went of course the Tories lost 3 out of 4 of the following general elections and even when they got back in in 2010 it was without a majority.
Similarly when Labour replaced Blair, its most successful election winner ever, with Brown in 2007 it then went on to lose 4 successive general elections and has still not got back in power yet.
Parties get win of leaders who win big general election majorities at their peril
With respect you just do not get it
HYUFD is right. Boris single handedly saved the conservative party in 2019 and reshaped it, against almost unthinkable odds, in to the election winning force that it is today.
That is not to say that he will never be manouvred out, he will - and probably relatively soon given his apparent lack of interest in the job. But trying to shift him after 2 years whilst he is doing well in the polls is really unthinkable and somewhat absurd.
Indeed, the 43.6% Boris won for the Tories in 2019 was the highest Tory voteshare since the 43.9% Thatcher got in 1979 and the Tories are still on 40%+ in every poll, getting rid of Boris now would be absurd.
This would be a perfectly acceptable position if the Conservative Party was in Opposition, and its leader’s only real measurable was to collect enough votes to form a government.
But Boris Johnson isn’t in Opposition, he is leading the government and has a major impact on our lives. More so in fact than any PM in living memory for all but a tiny fraction of us.
We should all have a higher standard and broader set of deliverables for him, than merely what polling score he can record. That is especially the case for party members and activists. Your (small) role in the governance of the country above us mere voters, means you have a duty to your fellow countrymen to ensure the gift they bestowed of a strong majority is wisely used. Because it is only activists and members who really have the power to change the course of a poor government in between elections.
That you cannot see this speaks volumes.
The UK government under Johnson has got more of its population double vaccinated than almost any other western nation and no party that I can think of has willingly got rid of a leader with a big poll lead whether in power or not
You're right, but what happens when that poll lead evaporates, or reduces significantly, as it almost certainly will?
What makes Johnson vulnerable I suspect is that a lot of his own MPs, conservative commentators/journalists, and activists like yourself, don't really think that he is a suitable Prime Minister. They have serious doubts about his character, integrity, honesty and competence. Even you have hinted at some doubts, despite your undying loyalty. Most are happy to keep quiet about these doubts while he's a winner, but they will surface once his capacity to win is diminished, and it will be brutal.
So I doubt if Starmer will need to topple Johnson. The Tories will be the executioners.
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
The counter factual is that if the uk hadnt been showing them up the eu would have continued at their liesurely snails pace....not provable either way but boy they sure werent in a hurry till the comparisons came out
I think there's a fair amount of truth in that. Who says healthy competition isn't good for everybody?
On the subject of the EU, what doesn't get a lot of attention is the ridiculous difference in vaccine uptakes between Eastern and Western Europe.
In the West, you have Iceland (90% of adults with at least one jab) and the UK (89%) leading the pack, with Belgium (83%) and the Netherlands (82%) not far behind. Germany, France, Italy and Spain are in a group behind at between 67% and 75%.
Now look to the East... Latvia is at only 42%, Romania at 31% (which is basically identical to the number double jabbed), while Bulgaria is at a barely believable 18% and jabbing has basically ground to a halt there.
The East is going to get hammered by Delta.
A lot of the differences are obviously cultural, but isn't another major factor that most of the poorer countries in Eastern Europe put all their money down on the cheaper AZ vaccines. Given what happened subsequently i doubt that the better performing countries would be doing as well as they are if they weren't awash with Pfizer.
No absolutely not, AZN is a great vaccine. Most of the UK's rollout has been that.
Plus the EU had central procurement.
To be fair I would personally be suspicious naturally of anything UvDL procured....thousands of german sailors would agree
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
We gained psychologically, in several ways. We gained an early sense of control, we got the pleasure of a national success, we enjoyed the exhilaration of fighting back - and we will benefit in future from our new national excellence at vaccines. These are not small things
We have also hit vax hesitancy early so we have more time to work out a way around - tho Macron seems to be better at this: just make the fucking jabs mandatory, or as near as dammit. I don't care any more
Scraping the barrel, though, when you consider that back in the spring the general expectation was that the UK would be basking in a summer free of the virus while those pesky Europeans would still be suffering the third wave.
It hasn’t turned out like that, at all.
It's not "scraping the barrel", we have gained very serious advantages, however you are right that the people who thought we would be basking in freedom were talking bollocks
It's a basic law of Covid, as soon as you get in any way smug about the virus, it comes back to haunt you, and make you regret your boasts. This has been true almost universally
I think the US (parts of it) are about to discovery in a month or two the truth about getting smug with the virus.
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
The counter factual is that if the uk hadnt been showing them up the eu would have continued at their liesurely snails pace....not provable either way but boy they sure werent in a hurry till the comparisons came out
I think there's a fair amount of truth in that. Who says healthy competition isn't good for everybody?
On the subject of the EU, what doesn't get a lot of attention is the ridiculous difference in vaccine uptakes between Eastern and Western Europe.
In the West, you have Iceland (90% of adults with at least one jab) and the UK (89%) leading the pack, with Belgium (83%) and the Netherlands (82%) not far behind. Germany, France, Italy and Spain are in a group behind at between 67% and 75%.
Now look to the East... Latvia is at only 42%, Romania at 31% (which is basically identical to the number double jabbed), while Bulgaria is at a barely believable 18% and jabbing has basically ground to a halt there.
The East is going to get hammered by Delta.
A lot of the differences are obviously cultural, but isn't another major factor that most of the poorer countries in Eastern Europe put all their money down on the cheaper AZ vaccines. Given what happened subsequently i doubt that the better performing countries would be doing as well as they are if they weren't awash with Pfizer.
No absolutely not, AZN is a great vaccine. Most of the UK's rollout has been that.
Plus the EU had central procurement.
You're missing the point. The AZ "issues"/"doubts" have barely affected the UK rollout at all. In fact, the fact that it was elements within the EU that appeared to be trashing it probably helped. My point was that the discrepancies between Western and Eastern Europe (excluding the UK) are not solely cultural. But a lot of it is simply down to cash, and the fact that they are relying on a vaccine that many see as discredited.
The EU had central procurement, but within that the individual countries had to pay for their own vaccines, and the poorer ones chose to rely on the cheaper vaccines.
After lamenting about edinburgh's piss poor vaccine numbers a couple of months ago it looks like the populace has got their finger out, up to 82% first vax which is a massive improvement.
But for 1st vax numbers no one can hold a candle to East Dunbartonshire at a stinking 96.8%!
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
The counter factual is that if the uk hadnt been showing them up the eu would have continued at their liesurely snails pace....not provable either way but boy they sure werent in a hurry till the comparisons came out
I think there's a fair amount of truth in that. Who says healthy competition isn't good for everybody?
On the subject of the EU, what doesn't get a lot of attention is the ridiculous difference in vaccine uptakes between Eastern and Western Europe.
In the West, you have Iceland (90% of adults with at least one jab) and the UK (89%) leading the pack, with Belgium (83%) and the Netherlands (82%) not far behind. Germany, France, Italy and Spain are in a group behind at between 67% and 75%.
Now look to the East... Latvia is at only 42%, Romania at 31% (which is basically identical to the number double jabbed), while Bulgaria is at a barely believable 18% and jabbing has basically ground to a halt there.
The East is going to get hammered by Delta.
A lot of the differences are obviously cultural, but isn't another major factor that most of the poorer countries in Eastern Europe put all their money down on the cheaper AZ vaccines. Given what happened subsequently i doubt that the better performing countries would be doing as well as they are if they weren't awash with Pfizer.
And who put people off Azn....would that be macron , handlesblatt etc?
Yes, but that's not the point.
Then perhaps you would care to state the point. You said poorer states only had azn which is why they had low vaccination rates...Azn is perfectly good as a vaccine. Why does therefore only have azn make them low vax if its not for idiots like macron and handelsblatt?
On topic, how reliable do we think a poll taken on a (very nice) Sunday is? @Isam always says that the politically engaged are always over represented in polls; it may be even more true for this one.
Ah, @Isam still banned. Don't know why, but more's the pity.
yes it's bollocks. STOP BANNING ISAM
You could offer to take his place on the banned list, like some sort of hostage exchange?
What advantages have we actually gained? Are we any more free or open than elsewhere in Europe? It doesn't seem like it
Yes we are. We're the most open nation in Europe.
This is news to me. The Balearics felt, if anything, slightly more open than London two weeks ago, when I was there. Meanwhile the Dutch have been walking around nightclubs with no masks for weeks - ie definitely more open than us (tho they have now backpedalled)
I think most of affluent western Europe is in a largely similar position
My guess is that case numbers will rise sharply in most European countries, in coming weeks, but (as with us) well-vaccinated countries will see a much less steep rise in hospitalisations and deaths.
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
The counter factual is that if the uk hadnt been showing them up the eu would have continued at their liesurely snails pace....not provable either way but boy they sure werent in a hurry till the comparisons came out
I think there's a fair amount of truth in that. Who says healthy competition isn't good for everybody?
On the subject of the EU, what doesn't get a lot of attention is the ridiculous difference in vaccine uptakes between Eastern and Western Europe.
In the West, you have Iceland (90% of adults with at least one jab) and the UK (89%) leading the pack, with Belgium (83%) and the Netherlands (82%) not far behind. Germany, France, Italy and Spain are in a group behind at between 67% and 75%.
Now look to the East... Latvia is at only 42%, Romania at 31% (which is basically identical to the number double jabbed), while Bulgaria is at a barely believable 18% and jabbing has basically ground to a halt there.
The East is going to get hammered by Delta.
A lot of the differences are obviously cultural, but isn't another major factor that most of the poorer countries in Eastern Europe put all their money down on the cheaper AZ vaccines. Given what happened subsequently i doubt that the better performing countries would be doing as well as they are if they weren't awash with Pfizer.
And who put people off Azn....would that be macron , handlesblatt etc?
Yes, but that's not the point.
Then perhaps you would care to state the point. You said poorer states only had azn which is why they had low vaccination rates...Azn is perfectly good as a vaccine. Why does therefore only have azn make them low vax if its not for idiots like macron and handelsblatt?
I didn't say it wasn't the fault(in part) of the likes of Macron and Handelsblatt. I was simply saying that a factor in their lower vax rates was that they were relying more on AZ. And the sad reality is that AZ has come to be seen in many countries as not to be trusted, thereby exacerbating what may already have been a cultural vaccine hesitancy. I was using it as an explanation for differences between East and West. No more, no less.
On topic, how reliable do we think a poll taken on a (very nice) Sunday is? @Isam always says that the politically engaged are always over represented in polls; it may be even more true for this one.
Ah, @Isam still banned. Don't know why, but more's the pity.
yes it's bollocks. STOP BANNING ISAM
You could offer to take his place on the banned list, like some sort of hostage exchange?
On topic, how reliable do we think a poll taken on a (very nice) Sunday is? @Isam always says that the politically engaged are always over represented in polls; it may be even more true for this one.
Ah, @Isam still banned. Don't know why, but more's the pity.
yes it's bollocks. STOP BANNING ISAM
You could offer to take his place on the banned list, like some sort of hostage exchange?
It seems pretty easy going here. What do you have to do to get a ban ?
Is the fact the Sottish surge seems over, or at least subsiding at present, not something to take heart on for the rest of the UK? It ramped up vert dramatically very quickly and is now falling off almost as suddenly with the only real explanation anyone could come up with is the football crossed with Delta.
It sort of feels like we just have to hold our nerve a little longer.
Scotland got a few weeks less of football than England, but probably more importantly a few weeks less of schooling too.
We've got 4 weeks now without football, outside in the sunshine, and with the schools closed. Then the new football season begins and we'll have full stadium etc just before schools return.
Except in Manchester. The Etihad Stadium is never full, unless its because Coldplay are playing.
I wouldn’t worry about the new football season. It’s very different from a national semi and final were half the country congregated to watch. Yes there will be 30 to 60K crowds, but mostly outside.
I think what people get wrong about the football is thinking it was about the crowds. It wasn't. It was the people congregating in pubs and at home to watch it on TV.Peak TV audience for the Italy v England Euro final was ~31 million.
Seems like Sky only manage a peak audience above 2 million in about 1-in-8 matches (maybe one every fortnight?)
People who moan about the headers on PB are free, presumably, to post elsewhere.
The PB Tory supply is inexhaustible, so they won’t be missed.
I was just pointing out the lack of balance which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. You will be pleased to know my posting on the site has reduced to almost zero. I hope it keeps you happy.
I too have been swamped by left wingery on this site. As the leading social liberal centre moderate on this site I have applied to DWP for a benefit to be able to continue to post here.
More seriously the site's direction is hard left but it is still the best site and allows posting from moderates like me and you so keep posting! ♥️
What advantages have we actually gained? Are we any more free or open than elsewhere in Europe? It doesn't seem like it
Yes we are. We're the most open nation in Europe.
I don't think that's true - I think Denmark is more open than the UK.
Debateable as it stands, but 100% definitely not the case as of midnight.
In Denmark you can't enter a gym, or attend any organised indoor sport events without a Corona Passport. In the UK you've been able to attend a gym without a Covid passport.
In Denmark you need a Corona Passport to enter restraurants, cafes and bars. You don't in the UK. In Denmark all restaraunts, cafes and bars much close no later than 2am.
In Denmark for massages, haircuts and tattoos etc you must present a Covid Passport. You don't in the UK.
In Denmark you can't enter a museum, amusement park, cinema, venues, zoos, stadiums or other sport venues without a corona passport. You can in the UK.
In Denmark all discos and nightclubs are closed, they will be open tonight in the UK.
In Denmark its illegal to have indoor events and activities of more than 250 people, all such restrictions are being abolished in the UK.
In Denmark a face mask is legally required on public transport. Its not in the UK from tomorrow.
Johnson says he only ‘briefly’ considered not isolating: Boris Johnson says he only looked “briefly into the idea” of avoiding self-isolation through a daily contact testing pilot after being pinged by NHS test and trace.
He considered long enough to
1. issue a press release saying they were doing it 2. send a minister on all the morning shows to defend them doing it.
BoZo thinks the people who vote for him are idiots.
On topic, how reliable do we think a poll taken on a (very nice) Sunday is? @Isam always says that the politically engaged are always over represented in polls; it may be even more true for this one.
Ah, @Isam still banned. Don't know why, but more's the pity.
yes it's bollocks. STOP BANNING ISAM
You could offer to take his place on the banned list, like some sort of hostage exchange?
It seems pretty easy going here. What do you have to do to get a ban ?
I've no idea. We could ask the banned, but they couldn't reply......
People who moan about the headers on PB are free, presumably, to post elsewhere.
The PB Tory supply is inexhaustible, so they won’t be missed.
I was just pointing out the lack of balance which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. You will be pleased to know my posting on the site has reduced to almost zero. I hope it keeps you happy.
I too have been swamped by left wingery on this site. As the leading social liberal centre moderate on this site I have applied to DWP for a benefit to be able to continue to post here.
More seriously the site's direction is hard left but it is still the best site and allows posting from moderates like me and you so keep posting! ♥️
‘Hard Left’? That, it seems to me, is a strand of opinion that’s definitely not represented here - at least since ‘The Jezziah’ retired hurt.
Had they not self isolated it may have been damaging, now they are doing so which the poll shows most of the public agree with then I doubt it will be damaging.
If they brought forward ending self isolation for the double jabbed if they have come into contact with a Covid case from next month then it would not be an issue at all
Maybe but thousands, even millions have taken the decision to delete the app anyway
When you say bringing it forward from next month would not make it an issue, but the sheer scale of stupidity over this, and todays nonsense provides Boris and HMG opponents with gifts that just keep on coming
The time for Boris to move over is rapidly coming, and the sooner the better to be fair for many of moderate conservatives.
Of course, you will show some selective polling that Boris is the darling of the Country but every day he seems to be challenging that popularity, and losing goodwill by the bucket full and reminding so many of how easily 'Ratner' trashed his brand so quickly
It was Boris who won the Red Wall and Boris who is the most successful Tory election winner since Thatcher, once Thatcher went of course the Tories lost 3 out of 4 of the following general elections and even when they got back in in 2010 it was without a majority.
Similarly when Labour replaced Blair, its most successful election winner ever, with Brown in 2007 it then went on to lose 4 successive general elections and has still not got back in power yet.
Parties get win of leaders who win big general election majorities at their peril
With respect you just do not get it
HYUFD is right. Boris single handedly saved the conservative party in 2019 and reshaped it, against almost unthinkable odds, in to the election winning force that it is today.
That is not to say that he will never be manouvred out, he will - and probably relatively soon given his apparent lack of interest in the job. But trying to shift him after 2 years whilst he is doing well in the polls is really unthinkable and somewhat absurd.
Indeed, the 43.6% Boris won for the Tories in 2019 was the highest Tory voteshare since the 43.9% Thatcher got in 1979 and the Tories are still on 40%+ in every poll, getting rid of Boris now would be absurd.
This would be a perfectly acceptable position if the Conservative Party was in Opposition, and its leader’s only real measurable was to collect enough votes to form a government.
But Boris Johnson isn’t in Opposition, he is leading the government and has a major impact on our lives. More so in fact than any PM in living memory for all but a tiny fraction of us.
We should all have a higher standard and broader set of deliverables for him, than merely what polling score he can record. That is especially the case for party members and activists. Your (small) role in the governance of the country above us mere voters, means you have a duty to your fellow countrymen to ensure the gift they bestowed of a strong majority is wisely used. Because it is only activists and members who really have the power to change the course of a poor government in between elections.
That you cannot see this speaks volumes.
Unless you want to dissolve the electorate and find another the findings of polls, if properly done, are a genuine proxy for the opinion of a wide range of people taking account of the political variables. Polling isn't elections of course, but the big point of major political parties is to win elections by the offer they make to the public.
For myself I never bought Blair's agenda but I would have been blind if I hadn't seen why he got support, and its legitimacy. same here for Boris's opponents. The function of LOTO includes making a better offer. This should not be hard if this government is as terrible as its critics think.
BTW there is a patronising aspect to the assault on the Tories becoming more popular among the working class. As if they are fine and noble sons of toil if they vote Labour, but fail to know their place if they vote Tory.
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
We gained psychologically, in several ways. We gained an early sense of control, we got the pleasure of a national success, we enjoyed the exhilaration of fighting back - and we will benefit in future from our new national excellence at vaccines. These are not small things
We have also hit vax hesitancy early so we have more time to work out a way around - tho Macron seems to be better at this: just make the fucking jabs mandatory, or as near as dammit. I don't care any more
Scraping the barrel, though, when you consider that back in the spring the general expectation was that the UK would be basking in a summer free of the virus while those pesky Europeans would still be suffering the third wave.
It hasn’t turned out like that, at all.
For much of the EU the second wave never really finished until May, and the third wave has not really started yet.
People who moan about the headers on PB are free, presumably, to post elsewhere.
The PB Tory supply is inexhaustible, so they won’t be missed.
I was just pointing out the lack of balance which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. You will be pleased to know my posting on the site has reduced to almost zero. I hope it keeps you happy.
I too have been swamped by left wingery on this site. As the leading social liberal centre moderate on this site I have applied to DWP for a benefit to be able to continue to post here.
More seriously the site's direction is hard left but it is still the best site and allows posting from moderates like me and you so keep posting! ♥️
The site is not hard left. It is generally an excellent place to be, tolerant, amusing, and exceedingly well informed
However they could do with a couple more loyal Tories - or Borisovites - to write threaders. 43% of the country still supports the PM, you would never know that from PB
And constantly banning articulate reasonable right wingers like Isam is, I feel, an error
But this site is all available for free, and it is better than any other chat forum I know. So, there's that, too
What advantages have we actually gained? Are we any more free or open than elsewhere in Europe? It doesn't seem like it
Yes we are. We're the most open nation in Europe.
I don't think that's true - I think Denmark is more open than the UK.
Debateable as it stands, but 100% definitely not the case as of midnight.
In Denmark you can't enter a gym, or attend any organised indoor sport events without a Corona Passport. In the UK you've been able to attend a gym without a Covid passport.
In Denmark you need a Corona Passport to enter restraurants, cafes and bars. You don't in the UK. In Denmark all restaraunts, cafes and bars much close no later than 2am.
In Denmark for massages, haircuts and tattoos etc you must present a Covid Passport. You don't in the UK.
In Denmark you can't enter a museum, amusement park, cinema, venues, zoos, stadiums or other sport venues without a corona passport. You can in the UK.
In Denmark all discos and nightclubs are closed, they will be open tonight in the UK.
In Denmark its illegal to have indoor events and activities of more than 250 people, all such restrictions are being abolished in the UK.
In Denmark a face mask is legally required on public transport. Its not in the UK from tomorrow.
Sure, but that's Denmark's way (like Israel's) of achieving close to 100% vaccine uptake. It's basically freedom, so long as you are willing to get jabbed.
Snap.. another anti Boris thread... no.mention of the poll that says Labour are losing the black vote.. its getting very one sided....
There is a genuinely interesting header to be written, which is why is Johnson's government 10 percentage points ahead of Labour when they screw everything up on such an unprecedented scale? Simply saying they DO screw everything up doesn't get to the answer IMO, nor is saying, they ARE 10% ahead in the polls so they must be doing something right.
Maybe you could write that header?
There is a simple answer and not one that voted tory since 2010 nor in fact for anyone.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
In contrast to the zeitgeist a couple of months back, when it appeared that the pace of your nation’s organised vaccination rollout in was the only game in town, it is now quite obvious that there are many other factors in play. We haven’t gained any significant advantage from being a month or two ahead in vaccination, when you compare our stats with other countries.
We gained psychologically, in several ways. We gained an early sense of control, we got the pleasure of a national success, we enjoyed the exhilaration of fighting back - and we will benefit in future from our new national excellence at vaccines. These are not small things
We have also hit vax hesitancy early so we have more time to work out a way around - tho Macron seems to be better at this: just make the fucking jabs mandatory, or as near as dammit. I don't care any more
Scraping the barrel, though, when you consider that back in the spring the general expectation was that the UK would be basking in a summer free of the virus while those pesky Europeans would still be suffering the third wave.
It hasn’t turned out like that, at all.
For much of the EU the second wave never really finished until May, and the third wave has not really started yet.
It's all stretched out.
Well indeed. I don't know what Ian is expecting but in the UK all legal restrictions are abolished at midnight.
What advantages have we actually gained? Are we any more free or open than elsewhere in Europe? It doesn't seem like it
Yes we are. We're the most open nation in Europe.
I don't think that's true - I think Denmark is more open than the UK.
Debateable as it stands, but 100% definitely not the case as of midnight.
In Denmark you can't enter a gym, or attend any organised indoor sport events without a Corona Passport. In the UK you've been able to attend a gym without a Covid passport.
In Denmark you need a Corona Passport to enter restraurants, cafes and bars. You don't in the UK. In Denmark all restaraunts, cafes and bars much close no later than 2am.
In Denmark for massages, haircuts and tattoos etc you must present a Covid Passport. You don't in the UK.
In Denmark you can't enter a museum, amusement park, cinema, venues, zoos, stadiums or other sport venues without a corona passport. You can in the UK.
In Denmark all discos and nightclubs are closed, they will be open tonight in the UK.
In Denmark its illegal to have indoor events and activities of more than 250 people, all such restrictions are being abolished in the UK.
In Denmark a face mask is legally required on public transport. Its not in the UK from tomorrow.
Sure, but that's Denmark's way (like Israel's) of achieving close to 100% vaccine uptake. It's basically freedom, so long as you are willing to get jabbed.
Comments
I think the Tweet is unpleasant so I don't agree with that but Johnson doesn't look well at all, again? It can't be an easy job whatever my misgivings with Johnson himself - but he doesn't look well
But Boris Johnson isn’t in Opposition, he is leading the government and has a major impact on our lives. More so in fact than any PM in living memory for all but a tiny fraction of us.
We should all have a higher standard and broader set of deliverables for him, than merely what polling score he can record. That is especially the case for party members and activists. Your (small) role in the governance of the country above us mere voters, means you have a duty to your fellow countrymen to ensure the gift they bestowed of a strong majority is wisely used. Because it is only activists and members who really have the power to change the course of a poor government in between elections.
That you cannot see this speaks volumes.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/jul/18/coronavirus-live-boris-johnson-isolate-contact-sajid-javid-athletes-test-positive-tokyo-olympic-village
It would have been nice to have more vaccines done but I suspect we are hitting the ceiling there.
It’s a gamble but a rational one.
But Boris doesn’t want to say that publicly because the media will attack him. So he blathers on.
(FWIW, I known Boris slightly since the mid 90s, and I dislike him. He’s a braggart and has a tendency to be a bit of a bully. I’m not a member of the conservatives but encouraged my mother to vote for Hunt.)
Maybe you could write that header?
It's almost as bad as people anonymously posting on forums using the names of famous people, particularly Victorian engineers. Utter scum, they are.
Now is the moment he finds out if his great vaccine victory really was the saving grace it appeared not so long ago.
If it's not, he has to make a very difficult choice: stick to his line of accepting his own people dying, or reverse on a stone cold promise to a nation that has become divided and disillusioned. And should that happen, he might wonder whether taking this gamble when the pandemic is far from over was that good an idea after all.
The trouble is what are the alternatives? Reimpose some restrictions (simply not opening up fully tomorrow wouldn’t be enough) until cases come down again, big then what? The balancing act is between the benefit of a couple of months of extra vaccine induced immunity in the population set against the increased risk of a surge during autumn and winter potentially with yet another variant.
The big priority in any case, surely, must be to help vaccinate the rest of the world as quickly as possible. There’s an unbecoming insularity in the way both government cheerleaders and opponents act as if the UK is the only country facing Covid-19.
Eg take Measles for example. It requires 95% vaccination to achieve herd immunity. If there's 5 schools of equal size, four of which have 99% of kids vaccinated and 1 of which has 80% of kids vaccinated then overall the vaccination rate is over 95% as a whole. As a result as a whole there ought to herd immunity in theory.
However in reality the four schools with 99% vaccination will have effective herd immunity, the one school with only 80% vaccination will not. The 20% of antivaxxers in that community will have ensured there won't be herd immunity in that school, that community, even though other locations elsewhere have got more than is needed bringing up the average.
There will be some communities in the UK with pretty good herd immunity now, but other communities now that don't.
Yes the tories did crap
However pretty sure labour would have been worse, starmer would have joined the eu vaccine scheme and frankly without the uk outpacing them the eu would still be dawdling
The lib dems would have done even worse not only would we have joined the eu vaccines scheme they would have sent any vaccines we did receive to more needy eu nations
Claim:
"Presiding over one of the developed world's highest death rates"
Fact:
Developed world's highest death rates, in order
Bulgaria
Serbia
Lithuania
Czechia
Poland
Slovakia
Bosnia
Hungary
Montenegro
Croatia
Italy
United States
Portugal
Spain
Slovenia
Latvia
Britain
Britain is 17th
Why do they write this provable bilge?
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker
Yet it’s a wonderful concept. Enough people are immune through infection and vaccination that those who aren’t are still protected from community spread.
It sort of feels like we just have to hold our nerve a little longer.
It won't be comfortable but better do it now than the autumn
We've got 4 weeks now without football, outside in the sunshine, and with the schools closed. Then the new football season begins and we'll have full stadium etc just before schools return.
Except in Manchester. The Etihad Stadium is never full, unless its because Coldplay are playing.
We have also hit vax hesitancy early so we have more time to work out a way around - tho Macron seems to be better at this: just make the fucking jabs mandatory, or as near as dammit. I don't care any more
French-bashing articles are popular in the UK press for the same reason, and they often emerge at times of national self doubt in the UK - look, it's worse in France!
America is now in palpable decline, in so many ways. And life for the average American is now obviously inferior - to anyone who travels - to life in western Europe, or even, sometimes, east Asia. Ironically, passport holding coastal liberal Americans must know this more than stay-at-home Texan Republicans, a fact probably rammed home as they are forced to shelter in place for 18 months
Hence this odd Anglophobia
It hasn’t turned out like that, at all.
On the subject of the EU, what doesn't get a lot of attention is the ridiculous difference in vaccine uptakes between Eastern and Western Europe.
In the West, you have Iceland (90% of adults with at least one jab) and the UK (89%) leading the pack, with Belgium (83%) and the Netherlands (82%) not far behind. Germany, France, Italy and Spain are in a group behind at between 67% and 75%.
Now look to the East... Latvia is at only 42%, Romania at 31% (which is basically identical to the number double jabbed), while Bulgaria is at a barely believable 18% and jabbing has basically ground to a halt there.
The East is going to get hammered by Delta.
You as site only can post what you like about what you like, I am just pointing out that it's really one sided at the moment and that is fair comment because it is.
It's a basic law of Covid, as soon as you get in any way smug about the virus, it comes back to haunt you, and make you regret your boasts. This has been true almost universally
Look at the excess death tolls and given the UK's population density, demographics and levels of obesity I see little reason that without the vaccine procurement the UK wouldn't already be at over 300 deaths per 100k like most Eastern European nations instead of ~120 deaths per 100k
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker
The PB Tory supply is inexhaustible, so they won’t be missed.
I wouldn’t worry about the new football season. It’s very different from a national semi and final were half the country congregated to watch. Yes there will be 30 to 60K crowds, but mostly outside.I think what people get wrong about the football is thinking it was about the crowds. It wasn't. It was the people congregating in pubs and at home to watch it on TV.
And there'll be people congregated to watch Liverpool or Man Utd games at least.
I think most of affluent western Europe is in a largely similar position
Plus the EU had central procurement.
What makes Johnson vulnerable I suspect is that a lot of his own MPs, conservative commentators/journalists, and activists like yourself, don't really think that he is a suitable Prime Minister. They have serious doubts about his character, integrity, honesty and competence. Even you have hinted at some doubts, despite your undying loyalty. Most are happy to keep quiet about these doubts while he's a winner, but they will surface once his capacity to win is diminished, and it will be brutal.
So I doubt if Starmer will need to topple Johnson. The Tories will be the executioners.
The EU had central procurement, but within that the individual countries had to pay for their own vaccines, and the poorer ones chose to rely on the cheaper vaccines.
But for 1st vax numbers no one can hold a candle to East Dunbartonshire at a stinking 96.8%!
Seems like Sky only manage a peak audience above 2 million in about 1-in-8 matches (maybe one every fortnight?)
Very different scale of effect.
I too have been swamped by left wingery on this site. As the leading social liberal centre moderate on this site I have applied to DWP for a benefit to be able to continue to post here.
More seriously the site's direction is hard left but it is still the best site and allows posting from moderates like me and you so keep posting! ♥️
In Denmark you can't enter a gym, or attend any organised indoor sport events without a Corona Passport. In the UK you've been able to attend a gym without a Covid passport.
In Denmark you need a Corona Passport to enter restraurants, cafes and bars. You don't in the UK. In Denmark all restaraunts, cafes and bars much close no later than 2am.
In Denmark for massages, haircuts and tattoos etc you must present a Covid Passport. You don't in the UK.
In Denmark you can't enter a museum, amusement park, cinema, venues, zoos, stadiums or other sport venues without a corona passport. You can in the UK.
In Denmark all discos and nightclubs are closed, they will be open tonight in the UK.
In Denmark its illegal to have indoor events and activities of more than 250 people, all such restrictions are being abolished in the UK.
In Denmark a face mask is legally required on public transport. Its not in the UK from tomorrow.
https://en.coronasmitte.dk/rules-and-regulations
1. issue a press release saying they were doing it
2. send a minister on all the morning shows to defend them doing it.
BoZo thinks the people who vote for him are idiots.
For myself I never bought Blair's agenda but I would have been blind if I hadn't seen why he got support, and its legitimacy. same here for Boris's opponents. The function of LOTO includes making a better offer. This should not be hard if this government is as terrible as its critics think.
BTW there is a patronising aspect to the assault on the Tories becoming more popular among the working class. As if they are fine and noble sons of toil if they vote Labour, but fail to know their place if they vote Tory.
It's all stretched out.
However they could do with a couple more loyal Tories - or Borisovites - to write threaders. 43% of the country still supports the PM, you would never know that from PB
And constantly banning articulate reasonable right wingers like Isam is, I feel, an error
But this site is all available for free, and it is better than any other chat forum I know. So, there's that, too
No EU nation as far as I know can say that.