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This rebuke to BoJo from the Speaker is almost unprecedented – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,683
edited June 2021 in General
This rebuke to BoJo from the Speaker is almost unprecedented – politicalbetting.com

"This House needs to know first. I find it totally unacceptable that once again, we see Downing Street running roughshod over members of parliament"Speaker Sir Lindsay Hoyle criticises government for informing media before MPs about latest restrictionshttps://t.co/r1G7KD6Gx6 pic.twitter.com/QZI4yD16is

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  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,179
    First
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    edited June 2021
    rats - second
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,179
    Floater said:

    rats - second

    Split second, stewards decision
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Almost unprecedented? So not unprecedented then. ;)
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited June 2021
    FPT:
    Mortimer said:

    France today:

    689 new cases
    63 new deaths
    325 new hospitalisations (+214) - England was 137
    71 new patients in intensive care (+45)

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/
    https://dashboard.covid19.data.gouv.fr/vue-d-ensemble?location=FRA

    Something doesn't look right to me.

    I really do wonder if we've been overcounting positive tested cases throughout. It would be so terribly British....
    More likely, given those numbers (and I had to go and check them at source; remarkably there are still over 12,000 Covid patients in French hospitals, and about 2,000 in intensive care) the French are grossly underreporting their cases.

    I know so little of the situation in France that I can only speculate as to why that would be. I do know some months back that it was reported that Wales was sequencing more Covid genomes in a week than France had managed in the whole of the pandemic, or some such extraordinary statistic. Is it simply that their testing infrastructure is poor and they're not detecting the vast bulk of their cases?

    In truth, a lot of tests are being conducted in France but the difference between there and the UK does nevertheless seem to be very substantial. Lacking any significant command of the French language I'm struggling slightly with that French Government website, but I think that those 689 confirmed cases must be some kind of special category in France, because the tests page seems to record about 3,800 positive tests today - but, here's the thing: the tests page also appears to suggest that the French have conducted just under 90 million tests in total so far, whereas we're now at 192 million. In terms of today alone, we have carried out just over a million tests whereas France has reported about 375,000.

    Put simply, you can't count positive cases to which you are blind.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    RobD said:

    Almost unprecedented? So not unprecedented then. ;)

    I seem to recall precedents under Blair and Cameron, though that may be mind tricks I doubt it.

    The notion that Parliament hears before the media has been one more honoured in the breach for decades now, though every Speaker objects.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    Lindsay Hoyle says "this house matters."

    Well, its a view.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    FPT:

    Mortimer said:

    France today:

    689 new cases
    63 new deaths
    325 new hospitalisations (+214) - England was 137
    71 new patients in intensive care (+45)

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/
    https://dashboard.covid19.data.gouv.fr/vue-d-ensemble?location=FRA

    Something doesn't look right to me.

    I really do wonder if we've been overcounting positive tested cases throughout. It would be so terribly British....
    More likely, given those numbers (and I had to go and check them at source; remarkably there are still over 12,000 Covid patients in French hospitals, and about 2,000 in intensive care) the French are grossly underreporting their cases.

    I know so little of the situation in France that I can only speculate as to why that would be. I do know some months back that it was reported that Wales was sequencing more Covid genomes in a week than France had managed in the whole of the pandemic, or some such extraordinary statistic. Is it simply that their testing infrastructure is poor and they're not detecting the vast bulk of their cases?

    In truth, a lot of tests are being conducted in France but the difference between there and the UK does nevertheless seem to be very substantial. Lacking any significant command of the French language I'm struggling slightly with that French Government website, but I think that those 689 confirmed cases must be some kind of special category in France, because the tests page seems to record about 3,800 positive tests today - but, here's the thing: the tests page also appears to suggest that the French have conducted just under 90 million tests in total so far, whereas we're now at 192 million. In terms of today alone, we have carried out just over a million tests whereas France has reported about 375,000.

    Put simply, you can't count positive cases to which you are blind.
    The French death stats only include people who die in hospitals, and have done for a long time. It wouldn't be surprising if their testing was massively skewed in that direction as well. Do they do any asymptomatic community testing like we do here?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,215
    Oh god

    Biden was two hours late for his NATO presser. And then he did this


    https://twitter.com/EnronChairman/status/1404542019565928456?s=20


    I kinda like Sleepy Joe (apart from the creepy bits), and I feel sorry for a rather doddery but well meaning old man with a sad life story, but I really really doubt he can see out this term, let alone win another won. Bet accordingly
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,353
    Toys/pram...

    Goodnight
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2021
    Leon said:

    Oh god

    Biden was two hours late for his NATO presser. And then he did this


    https://twitter.com/EnronChairman/status/1404542019565928456?s=20


    I kinda like Sleepy Joe (apart from the creepy bits), and I feel sorry for a rather doddery but well meaning old man with a sad life story, but I really really doubt he can see out this term, let alone win another won. Bet accordingly

    Mixing up Syria / Libia....when Trump did something like this CNN etc all went into meltdown...every late night show taking the piss etc....I have a feeling not a sausage when Sleepy Joe does this.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226
    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    27s
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: Summer death toll could hit 40,000 #TomorrowsPapersToday
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    RobD said:

    Almost unprecedented? So not unprecedented then. ;)

    No. Speakers moaning about this is just part of the tradition, like black rod banging on the door of the hoc.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,200

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    27s
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: Summer death toll could hit 40,000 #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Seems unlikely.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,215
    edited June 2021

    Leon said:

    Oh god

    Biden was two hours late for his NATO presser. And then he did this


    https://twitter.com/EnronChairman/status/1404542019565928456?s=20


    I kinda like Sleepy Joe (apart from the creepy bits), and I feel sorry for a rather doddery but well meaning old man with a sad life story, but I really really doubt he can see out this term, let alone win another won. Bet accordingly

    Mixing up Syria / Libia....when Trump did something like this CNN etc all went into meltdown...every late night show taking the piss etc....I have a feeling not a sausage when Sleepy Joe does this.
    There's a video of him wandering in to the wrong Cornish cafe during the G7, in oversized trainers. It is almost comic, and of course nothing to be ashamed of - really old people get confused - but he is the POTUS

    Sheesh. On the other hand Reagan was fairly demented in his second term, but his team managed to disguise it and the USA remained quite sensibly governed.

    I do, however, think we can discount any 2nd term for Joe
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2021

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    27s
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: Summer death toll could hit 40,000 #TomorrowsPapersToday

    If that is half way accurate, we are all f##ked....but I have a feeling their model is nonsense.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Leon said:

    Oh god

    Biden was two hours late for his NATO presser. And then he did this


    https://twitter.com/EnronChairman/status/1404542019565928456?s=20


    I kinda like Sleepy Joe (apart from the creepy bits), and I feel sorry for a rather doddery but well meaning old man with a sad life story, but I really really doubt he can see out this term, let alone win another won. Bet accordingly

    Mixing up Syria / Libia....when Trump did something like this CNN etc all went into meltdown...every late night show taking the piss etc....I have a feeling not a sausage when Sleepy Joe does this.
    They may well have done, but I think there was always plenty of material on Trump far worse than mixing up a few words. And also, whilst age may be a factor, there are known, longstanding and very explainable reasons why Biden mixes up words - all to do with his stammer. He's been doing it all his career. Given the choice between being caught by his stammer, and blurting out the wrong word (as a result of temporary blank spot or whatever) he goes for the latter.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,993
    Leon said:

    Oh god

    Biden was two hours late for his NATO presser. And then he did this


    https://twitter.com/EnronChairman/status/1404542019565928456?s=20


    I kinda like Sleepy Joe (apart from the creepy bits), and I feel sorry for a rather doddery but well meaning old man with a sad life story, but I really really doubt he can see out this term, let alone win another won. Bet accordingly

    In which case, bet on Harris for the nomination next time around: no matter how lacking in charisma she is, she'll be the sitting President.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,082

    FPT:

    Mortimer said:

    France today:

    689 new cases
    63 new deaths
    325 new hospitalisations (+214) - England was 137
    71 new patients in intensive care (+45)

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/
    https://dashboard.covid19.data.gouv.fr/vue-d-ensemble?location=FRA

    Something doesn't look right to me.

    I really do wonder if we've been overcounting positive tested cases throughout. It would be so terribly British....
    More likely, given those numbers (and I had to go and check them at source; remarkably there are still over 12,000 Covid patients in French hospitals, and about 2,000 in intensive care) the French are grossly underreporting their cases.

    I know so little of the situation in France that I can only speculate as to why that would be. I do know some months back that it was reported that Wales was sequencing more Covid genomes in a week than France had managed in the whole of the pandemic, or some such extraordinary statistic. Is it simply that their testing infrastructure is poor and they're not detecting the vast bulk of their cases?

    In truth, a lot of tests are being conducted in France but the difference between there and the UK does nevertheless seem to be very substantial. Lacking any significant command of the French language I'm struggling slightly with that French Government website, but I think that those 689 confirmed cases must be some kind of special category in France, because the tests page seems to record about 3,800 positive tests today - but, here's the thing: the tests page also appears to suggest that the French have conducted just under 90 million tests in total so far, whereas we're now at 192 million. In terms of today alone, we have carried out just over a million tests whereas France has reported about 375,000.

    Put simply, you can't count positive cases to which you are blind.
    As Portugal showed reporting too many positive tests can lose you tourists.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    27s
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: Summer death toll could hit 40,000 #TomorrowsPapersToday

    What a load of crap. From which cohort will these 40k deaths come from?!
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,082

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    27s
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: Summer death toll could hit 40,000 #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Is he talking about France or Italy ?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2021
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Oh god

    Biden was two hours late for his NATO presser. And then he did this


    https://twitter.com/EnronChairman/status/1404542019565928456?s=20
    See

    I kinda like Sleepy Joe (apart from the creepy bits), and I feel sorry for a rather doddery but well meaning old man with a sad life story, but I really really doubt he can see out this term, let alone win another won. Bet accordingly

    Mixing up Syria / Libia....when Trump did something like this CNN etc all went into meltdown...every late night show taking the piss etc....I have a feeling not a sausage when Sleepy Joe does this.
    There's a video of him wandering in to the wrong Cornish cafe during the G7, in oversized trainers. It is almost comic, and of course nothing to be ashamed of - really old people get confused - bur he is the POTUS

    Sheesh. On the other hand Reagan was fairly demented in his second term, but his team managed to disguise it and the USA remained quite sensibly governed.

    I do, however, think we can discount and 2nd term for Joe
    Luckily it does seem like they have pros behind the scenes (unlike team Trump).
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,215
    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Oh god

    Biden was two hours late for his NATO presser. And then he did this


    https://twitter.com/EnronChairman/status/1404542019565928456?s=20


    I kinda like Sleepy Joe (apart from the creepy bits), and I feel sorry for a rather doddery but well meaning old man with a sad life story, but I really really doubt he can see out this term, let alone win another won. Bet accordingly

    Mixing up Syria / Libia....when Trump did something like this CNN etc all went into meltdown...every late night show taking the piss etc....I have a feeling not a sausage when Sleepy Joe does this.
    They may well have done, but I think there was always plenty of material on Trump far worse than mixing up a few words. And also, whilst age may be a factor, there are known, longstanding and very explainable reasons why Biden mixes up words - all to do with his stammer. He's been doing it all his career. Given the choice between being caught by his stammer, and blurting out the wrong word (as a result of temporary blank spot or whatever) he goes for the latter.
    Oh FFS.

    I despise Trump (who, I think, also has some clear mental decline) and I was glad Biden won. Better a demented nice guy than a demented evil despot

    But it is facile to deny that Biden has cognitive issues. As Justin Trudea reportedly said at the G7, "he may be gone by 2022"
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Oh god

    Biden was two hours late for his NATO presser. And then he did this


    https://twitter.com/EnronChairman/status/1404542019565928456?s=20


    I kinda like Sleepy Joe (apart from the creepy bits), and I feel sorry for a rather doddery but well meaning old man with a sad life story, but I really really doubt he can see out this term, let alone win another won. Bet accordingly

    In which case, bet on Harris for the nomination next time around: no matter how lacking in charisma she is, she'll be the sitting President.
    This seems increasingly like a no brainer. We are barely 6 months in for goodness sake.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    Well, I have just done it, resigned form the conservative party. I know full well it will make no difference. but at least it separates me slightly from the Balls up.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    27s
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: Summer death toll could hit 40,000 #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Is he talking about France or Italy ?
    Just Bolton.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    27s
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: Summer death toll could hit 40,000 #TomorrowsPapersToday

    This is attributed to a warning from "scientists."

    It's bloody Warwick again, isn't it?

    Roll on the public inquiry. It's not just the Government that needs holding accountable. It's those to whom it has turned for advice, and been fed this kind of excrement.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2021
    If 300 a day are dying this summer....vaccines must be totally ineffective...but they just said they are upto 98% effective after two doses against serious illness.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    27s
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: Summer death toll could hit 40,000 #TomorrowsPapersToday

    If that is half way accurate, we are all f##ked....but I have a feeling their model is nonsense.
    Presumably assumes vaccination protection far less effective than currently thought (just in case), the upwards end of current transmissibility (with perhaps a bit extra chucked on top - just in case), a complete collapse of the health system (or course), and of course a population which has shown extreme enthusiasm for being locked down at the slightest opportunity suddenly discovering that it really quite likes being cooped up in crowded rooms at the height of summer.

    But it's ok - it's only a "reasonable worse case scenario" no doubt.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    BigRich said:

    Well, I have just done it, resigned form the conservative party. I know full well it will make no difference. but at least it separates me slightly from the Balls up.

    I'm sure many have contemplated similar.

    I'm sticking around; I want to be able to vote for Baker if necessary.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    Leon said:

    Oh god

    Biden was two hours late for his NATO presser. And then he did this


    https://twitter.com/EnronChairman/status/1404542019565928456?s=20


    I kinda like Sleepy Joe (apart from the creepy bits), and I feel sorry for a rather doddery but well meaning old man with a sad life story, but I really really doubt he can see out this term, let alone win another won. Bet accordingly

    What was he asked?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Mortimer said:

    BigRich said:

    Well, I have just done it, resigned form the conservative party. I know full well it will make no difference. but at least it separates me slightly from the Balls up.

    I'm sure many have contemplated similar.

    I'm sticking around; I want to be able to vote for Baker if necessary.
    Ditto.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Oh god

    Biden was two hours late for his NATO presser. And then he did this


    https://twitter.com/EnronChairman/status/1404542019565928456?s=20


    I kinda like Sleepy Joe (apart from the creepy bits), and I feel sorry for a rather doddery but well meaning old man with a sad life story, but I really really doubt he can see out this term, let alone win another won. Bet accordingly

    Mixing up Syria / Libia....when Trump did something like this CNN etc all went into meltdown...every late night show taking the piss etc....I have a feeling not a sausage when Sleepy Joe does this.
    They may well have done, but I think there was always plenty of material on Trump far worse than mixing up a few words. And also, whilst age may be a factor, there are known, longstanding and very explainable reasons why Biden mixes up words - all to do with his stammer. He's been doing it all his career. Given the choice between being caught by his stammer, and blurting out the wrong word (as a result of temporary blank spot or whatever) he goes for the latter.
    Oh FFS.

    I despise Trump (who, I think, also has some clear mental decline) and I was glad Biden won. Better a demented nice guy than a demented evil despot

    But it is facile to deny that Biden has cognitive issues. As Justin Trudea reportedly said at the G7, "he may be gone by 2022"
    If he's that doddery then presumably they'll still try to get him past halfway through his term. Would I be correct in my assumption that Kamala Harris can still stand for two full terms if she takes over with less than two years remaining?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,993
    Mortimer said:

    BigRich said:

    Well, I have just done it, resigned form the conservative party. I know full well it will make no difference. but at least it separates me slightly from the Balls up.

    I'm sure many have contemplated similar.

    I'm sticking around; I want to be able to vote for Baker if necessary.
    Steve Baker as leader?

    He might be right on covid restrictions, but he's a barking mad voter repellent.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    Mortimer said:

    BigRich said:

    Well, I have just done it, resigned form the conservative party. I know full well it will make no difference. but at least it separates me slightly from the Balls up.

    I'm sure many have contemplated similar.

    I'm sticking around; I want to be able to vote for Baker if necessary.
    I hovered over the keyboard for some time, for those reasons. and indeed I remained a member in the time of May, so That I could vote for a replacement. but I don't see it happening this time.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,215
    Why do Americans elect people in their late 70s and 80s, it is quite odd, and not healthy

    That is way too old to be the "leader of the free world" or any other hugely senior position

    Biden is just a few years younger than my dear old mum, who feels challenged by a half mile walk to Falmouth harbour. He has to fly around the world, and charm massively important people, and deal with other world leaders, and represent all of America, and presumably work 15 hour days - when all he wants is a nap, and maybe an omelette

    STOP DOING THIS, AMERICA
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    BigRich said:

    Well, I have just done it, resigned form the conservative party. I know full well it will make no difference. but at least it separates me slightly from the Balls up.

    I'm sure many have contemplated similar.

    I'm sticking around; I want to be able to vote for Baker if necessary.
    Steve Baker as leader?

    He might be right on covid restrictions, but he's a barking mad voter repellent.
    Temporary leader to get rid of restrictions and rule by SAGE. Gets to be PM and save the nation from the tyranny of experts. Someone else takes over before the election. Boris has shown, once again, that he's not a leader.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,993

    FPT:

    Mortimer said:

    France today:

    689 new cases
    63 new deaths
    325 new hospitalisations (+214) - England was 137
    71 new patients in intensive care (+45)

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/
    https://dashboard.covid19.data.gouv.fr/vue-d-ensemble?location=FRA

    Something doesn't look right to me.

    I really do wonder if we've been overcounting positive tested cases throughout. It would be so terribly British....
    More likely, given those numbers (and I had to go and check them at source; remarkably there are still over 12,000 Covid patients in French hospitals, and about 2,000 in intensive care) the French are grossly underreporting their cases.

    I know so little of the situation in France that I can only speculate as to why that would be. I do know some months back that it was reported that Wales was sequencing more Covid genomes in a week than France had managed in the whole of the pandemic, or some such extraordinary statistic. Is it simply that their testing infrastructure is poor and they're not detecting the vast bulk of their cases?

    In truth, a lot of tests are being conducted in France but the difference between there and the UK does nevertheless seem to be very substantial. Lacking any significant command of the French language I'm struggling slightly with that French Government website, but I think that those 689 confirmed cases must be some kind of special category in France, because the tests page seems to record about 3,800 positive tests today - but, here's the thing: the tests page also appears to suggest that the French have conducted just under 90 million tests in total so far, whereas we're now at 192 million. In terms of today alone, we have carried out just over a million tests whereas France has reported about 375,000.

    Put simply, you can't count positive cases to which you are blind.
    On the other hand, if they say "don't bother getting a test, if you don't have symptoms", then at least they are avoiding getting into a panic about asymptomatic cases in children.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?

    Moderna, Pfizer and AZ in trials for E484K mutation busting. It should be better against delta as it has a very similar E484Q mutation that looks to be the reason it has a low level of vaccine evasion.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226

    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?

    If they are, how long before SAGE tells Johnson he needs to hold off on Step 4 until all adults have had their boosters?

    I give it four weeks.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,082

    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?

    Do they need to be modified with the excellent results they already have ?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    27s
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: Summer death toll could hit 40,000 #TomorrowsPapersToday

    This is attributed to a warning from "scientists."

    It's bloody Warwick again, isn't it?

    Roll on the public inquiry. It's not just the Government that needs holding accountable. It's those to whom it has turned for advice, and been fed this kind of excrement.
    The job of newspapers is to sell newspapers.

    This is controversial and will scare and annoy people in equal measure.

    It will therefore sell newspapers.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Oh god

    Biden was two hours late for his NATO presser. And then he did this


    https://twitter.com/EnronChairman/status/1404542019565928456?s=20


    I kinda like Sleepy Joe (apart from the creepy bits), and I feel sorry for a rather doddery but well meaning old man with a sad life story, but I really really doubt he can see out this term, let alone win another won. Bet accordingly

    Mixing up Syria / Libia....when Trump did something like this CNN etc all went into meltdown...every late night show taking the piss etc....I have a feeling not a sausage when Sleepy Joe does this.
    They may well have done, but I think there was always plenty of material on Trump far worse than mixing up a few words. And also, whilst age may be a factor, there are known, longstanding and very explainable reasons why Biden mixes up words - all to do with his stammer. He's been doing it all his career. Given the choice between being caught by his stammer, and blurting out the wrong word (as a result of temporary blank spot or whatever) he goes for the latter.
    Oh FFS.

    I despise Trump (who, I think, also has some clear mental decline) and I was glad Biden won. Better a demented nice guy than a demented evil despot

    But it is facile to deny that Biden has cognitive issues. As Justin Trudea reportedly said at the G7, "he may be gone by 2022"
    If he's that doddery then presumably they'll still try to get him past halfway through his term. Would I be correct in my assumption that Kamala Harris can still stand for two full terms if she takes over with less than two years remaining?
    That's my understanding, I don't know if its the mid point of the elections or inorgarations, but A week or so after that point, and I think she will be the next POTUS
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    BigRich said:

    Well, I have just done it, resigned form the conservative party. I know full well it will make no difference. but at least it separates me slightly from the Balls up.

    I'm sure many have contemplated similar.

    I'm sticking around; I want to be able to vote for Baker if necessary.
    Steve Baker as leader?

    He might be right on covid restrictions, but he's a barking mad voter repellent.
    Temporary leader to get rid of restrictions and rule by SAGE. Gets to be PM and save the nation from the tyranny of experts. Someone else takes over before the election. Boris has shown, once again, that he's not a leader.
    Baker has set himself up as the leader of the anti-lockdown faction - but when called in for "special briefings" with the scientists towards the end of last year he ended up as subservient as the rest of them.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    27s
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: Summer death toll could hit 40,000 #TomorrowsPapersToday

    If that is half way accurate, we are all f##ked....but I have a feeling their model is nonsense.
    I, who I would say is on the pessimistic end, believe that to be a garbage number.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?

    If they are, how long before SAGE tells Johnson he needs to hold off on Step 4 until all adults have had their boosters?

    I give it four weeks.
    Nah, they won't be ready until 2022, Pfizer have updated clients and told them that booster jabs are Q12022 delivery at the earliest. Moderna are saying late Q4 but we haven't bought any and even that's probably going to slip to Q12022 as regulators figure out what kind of trials they need for modified vaccines.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226

    If 300 a day are dying this summer....vaccines must be totally ineffective...but they just said they are upto 98% effective after two doses against serious illness.

    One of the things that ministers don't seem to notice is the models they are shown always seem to be using data that is so out of date compared to the real world it is a joke.

    iirc the last panic (or was it three panics ago, I forget?) was caused by assumptions about vaccine uptake and efficiency that were an utter joke.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    MaxPB said:

    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?

    If they are, how long before SAGE tells Johnson he needs to hold off on Step 4 until all adults have had their boosters?

    I give it four weeks.
    Nah, they won't be ready until 2022, Pfizer have updated clients and told them that booster jabs are Q12022 delivery at the earliest. Moderna are saying late Q4 but we haven't bought any and even that's probably going to slip to Q12022 as regulators figure out what kind of trials they need for modified vaccines.
    So full lockdown by October it is then...
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,820
    alex_ said:

    FPT:

    Mortimer said:

    France today:

    689 new cases
    63 new deaths
    325 new hospitalisations (+214) - England was 137
    71 new patients in intensive care (+45)

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/
    https://dashboard.covid19.data.gouv.fr/vue-d-ensemble?location=FRA

    Something doesn't look right to me.

    I really do wonder if we've been overcounting positive tested cases throughout. It would be so terribly British....
    More likely, given those numbers (and I had to go and check them at source; remarkably there are still over 12,000 Covid patients in French hospitals, and about 2,000 in intensive care) the French are grossly underreporting their cases.

    I know so little of the situation in France that I can only speculate as to why that would be. I do know some months back that it was reported that Wales was sequencing more Covid genomes in a week than France had managed in the whole of the pandemic, or some such extraordinary statistic. Is it simply that their testing infrastructure is poor and they're not detecting the vast bulk of their cases?

    In truth, a lot of tests are being conducted in France but the difference between there and the UK does nevertheless seem to be very substantial. Lacking any significant command of the French language I'm struggling slightly with that French Government website, but I think that those 689 confirmed cases must be some kind of special category in France, because the tests page seems to record about 3,800 positive tests today - but, here's the thing: the tests page also appears to suggest that the French have conducted just under 90 million tests in total so far, whereas we're now at 192 million. In terms of today alone, we have carried out just over a million tests whereas France has reported about 375,000.

    Put simply, you can't count positive cases to which you are blind.
    The French death stats only include people who die in hospitals, and have done for a long time. It wouldn't be surprising if their testing was massively skewed in that direction as well. Do they do any asymptomatic community testing like we do here?
    The French figures include hospital aswell as care home deaths , the care homes are added twice a week .The Monday figures for cases are always much lower because very little testing is done on Sundays. Anyone can get a test free of charge regardless of the reason. It’s better to look at test positivity to get a truer picture , that’s now at 1.5% , which is down from near 10% at the height of the spring wave .
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    If 300 a day are dying this summer....vaccines must be totally ineffective...but they just said they are upto 98% effective after two doses against serious illness.

    With the original Covid - much less infectious, granted, and a bit less deadly - deaths declined to something like ten per day by August. OTOH, that was with fewer restrictions than we have now and absolutely zero protection from vaccines.

    The idea that we could be back to hundreds of corpses a day within a few weeks, with the current measures in place and the vaccination program being both as far advanced and demonstrably effective as it is, is literally incredible.

    You can bet that this is the kind of modelling that's being fed to the Prime Minister, and he gives a very strong impression of accepting it almost unquestioningly, when the application of a little common sense and about five minutes studying his own Government's Covid dashboard would be more than enough to expose it as arrant nonsense.

    This is an appallingly run country, it really is.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    MaxPB said:

    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?

    If they are, how long before SAGE tells Johnson he needs to hold off on Step 4 until all adults have had their boosters?

    I give it four weeks.
    Nah, they won't be ready until 2022, Pfizer have updated clients and told them that booster jabs are Q12022 delivery at the earliest. Moderna are saying late Q4 but we haven't bought any and even that's probably going to slip to Q12022 as regulators figure out what kind of trials they need for modified vaccines.
    So what are we giving people in September?
  • Options
    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Oh god

    Biden was two hours late for his NATO presser. And then he did this


    https://twitter.com/EnronChairman/status/1404542019565928456?s=20


    I kinda like Sleepy Joe (apart from the creepy bits), and I feel sorry for a rather doddery but well meaning old man with a sad life story, but I really really doubt he can see out this term, let alone win another won. Bet accordingly

    In which case, bet on Harris for the nomination next time around: no matter how lacking in charisma she is, she'll be the sitting President.
    Yes, that seems right although it feels like the daggers are out for her as well; not just from the Republican side.

    But yes she would be a shoo-in.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    nico679 said:

    alex_ said:

    FPT:

    Mortimer said:

    France today:

    689 new cases
    63 new deaths
    325 new hospitalisations (+214) - England was 137
    71 new patients in intensive care (+45)

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/
    https://dashboard.covid19.data.gouv.fr/vue-d-ensemble?location=FRA

    Something doesn't look right to me.

    I really do wonder if we've been overcounting positive tested cases throughout. It would be so terribly British....
    More likely, given those numbers (and I had to go and check them at source; remarkably there are still over 12,000 Covid patients in French hospitals, and about 2,000 in intensive care) the French are grossly underreporting their cases.

    I know so little of the situation in France that I can only speculate as to why that would be. I do know some months back that it was reported that Wales was sequencing more Covid genomes in a week than France had managed in the whole of the pandemic, or some such extraordinary statistic. Is it simply that their testing infrastructure is poor and they're not detecting the vast bulk of their cases?

    In truth, a lot of tests are being conducted in France but the difference between there and the UK does nevertheless seem to be very substantial. Lacking any significant command of the French language I'm struggling slightly with that French Government website, but I think that those 689 confirmed cases must be some kind of special category in France, because the tests page seems to record about 3,800 positive tests today - but, here's the thing: the tests page also appears to suggest that the French have conducted just under 90 million tests in total so far, whereas we're now at 192 million. In terms of today alone, we have carried out just over a million tests whereas France has reported about 375,000.

    Put simply, you can't count positive cases to which you are blind.
    The French death stats only include people who die in hospitals, and have done for a long time. It wouldn't be surprising if their testing was massively skewed in that direction as well. Do they do any asymptomatic community testing like we do here?
    The French figures include hospital aswell as care home deaths , the care homes are added twice a week .The Monday figures for cases are always much lower because very little testing is done on Sundays. Anyone can get a test free of charge regardless of the reason. It’s better to look at test positivity to get a truer picture , that’s now at 1.5% , which is down from near 10% at the height of the spring wave .
    OK, i didn't realise that thanks. Apologies to France.
  • Options
    PhilPhil Posts: 1,940
    If we’re going to need boosters to stave off mass deaths (again), then we need to get really good at keeping vaccine production high & sticking needles in arms as fast as possible.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited June 2021
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    MaxPB said:

    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?

    If they are, how long before SAGE tells Johnson he needs to hold off on Step 4 until all adults have had their boosters?

    I give it four weeks.
    Nah, they won't be ready until 2022, Pfizer have updated clients and told them that booster jabs are Q12022 delivery at the earliest. Moderna are saying late Q4 but we haven't bought any and even that's probably going to slip to Q12022 as regulators figure out what kind of trials they need for modified vaccines.
    So what are we giving people in September?
    Same as now, hoping for a big immune response to overcome binding efficiency dilution. Novavax also seems to handle mutations better than the rest and one day we may even get 60m of those.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Leon said:

    Why do Americans elect people in their late 70s and 80s, it is quite odd, and not healthy

    That is way too old to be the "leader of the free world" or any other hugely senior position

    Biden is just a few years younger than my dear old mum, who feels challenged by a half mile walk to Falmouth harbour. He has to fly around the world, and charm massively important people, and deal with other world leaders, and represent all of America, and presumably work 15 hour days - when all he wants is a nap, and maybe an omelette

    STOP DOING THIS, AMERICA

    They don't keep doing it. They've done it twice in a row, but for decades before then all POTUS's had been quite young when first elected in comparison: Clinton, W Bush, Obama were all much fresher faced.

    There is a tendency in politics when changing leader to overreact to the flaws of the predecessor.
    George Bush - succeeded Reagan but lied about not raising taxes, not trusted on the economy in 92.
    Clinton - "Its the economy, stupid" won in 92, but considered very sleazy and immoral by 2000.
    W Bush - Religious right born again "compassionate conservative" Christian in 2000, despised as a neocon warhawk by the left in 08
    Obama - "Hope" in 08, black and not a real American for the birther lunatics in 16
    Trump - Orange is the new black in 16, inexperienced in politics hated by anyone not a white supremacist and a completely unstable farce in 2020.
    Biden - Calm, collected, decades of experience and a safe pair of hands in 2020.

    Every POTUS winning against an opponent overcorrects the priors flaw. Biden's flaw is his age, oddly Trump's wasn't his age, so expect his successor to be quite young following an overcorrection next time.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,215
    I wonder if there is an optimum age to become a Very Senior Politician

    On a hunch, I'd say yes, just as there is an optimum age to be a top lyric poet (early 20s), mathematician (20s), goalkeeper (around 30?), novelist (30s-60s), flint knapper (78!), and so on

    A great politician needs at least some of the vigour of youth, combined with the wisdom and neutrality of age, plus the advanced social network of midlife. And the experience gained thereby

    As Margaret Thatcher was clearly our greatest ever prime minister I'm taking her as an examplar. She was 54 when she became prime minister. Young enough to work insane hours, old enough to have acquired great social networks, much life experience - and to judge people, shrewdly (a skill that really does only come with age)

    54 then, That's it. That's the ideal age to take the top job. I'm not far beyond this so if anyone wants to suggest that I become PM in the Covid Coalition I won't resist.

    Frankly, I would have done better than Boris since late January 2020
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,796
    edited June 2021
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    BigRich said:

    Well, I have just done it, resigned form the conservative party. I know full well it will make no difference. but at least it separates me slightly from the Balls up.

    I'm sure many have contemplated similar.

    I'm sticking around; I want to be able to vote for Baker if necessary.
    Steve Baker as leader?

    He might be right on covid restrictions, but he's a barking mad voter repellent.
    Temporary leader to get rid of restrictions and rule by SAGE. Gets to be PM and save the nation from the tyranny of experts. Someone else takes over before the election. Boris has shown, once again, that he's not a leader.
    You must all be joking and realise that you essentially inhabiting in a fantasy world.
    Boris wins elections and has saved the Conservative party from disaster.
    Over half of the population support the lockdown, it is a popular policy

  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?

    If they are, how long before SAGE tells Johnson he needs to hold off on Step 4 until all adults have had their boosters?

    I give it four weeks.
    Nah, they won't be ready until 2022, Pfizer have updated clients and told them that booster jabs are Q12022 delivery at the earliest. Moderna are saying late Q4 but we haven't bought any and even that's probably going to slip to Q12022 as regulators figure out what kind of trials they need for modified vaccines.
    So full lockdown by October it is then...
    It wouldn't surprise me at all, regardless of what kind of boosters are or are not available.

    FWIW, I'm pretty sure I recall Windbag wibbling about boosters at his presser this evening, but if there is a campaign it looks like it's going to end up consisting of unmodified AZ and keeping our fingers crossed that the variant issues don't get significantly worse. If Max is right then we can forget about mRNA and Novavax might not arrive this side of the heat death of the universe.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,668
    I've just noticed that the UK has just overtaken the USA in the proportion of the population fully vaccinated.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?

    If they are, how long before SAGE tells Johnson he needs to hold off on Step 4 until all adults have had their boosters?

    I give it four weeks.
    Nah, they won't be ready until 2022, Pfizer have updated clients and told them that booster jabs are Q12022 delivery at the earliest. Moderna are saying late Q4 but we haven't bought any and even that's probably going to slip to Q12022 as regulators figure out what kind of trials they need for modified vaccines.
    So full lockdown by October it is then...
    It wouldn't surprise me at all, regardless of what kind of boosters are or are not available.

    FWIW, I'm pretty sure I recall Windbag wibbling about boosters at his presser this evening, but if there is a campaign it looks like it's going to end up consisting of unmodified AZ and keeping our fingers crossed that the variant issues don't get significantly worse. If Max is right then we can forget about mRNA and Novavax might not arrive this side of the heat death of the universe.
    We've got 60m Pfizer doses for H2 and ostensibly 50m CureVac for Q2 also. We'll have about 40m leftover from Pfizer for booster shots. I have no idea why the government hasn't bought all of the Moderna it can. It should be approaching Moderna for UK based manufacturing and giving them all of the subsidies in the world. We need to replace AZ as the long term vaccine and Moderna feels like a good fit.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    alex_ said:
    Ah, I guessed wrong. It's not Warwick, it's LSHTM. Another institution with a lot to answer for.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I've just noticed that the UK has just overtaken the USA in the proportion of the population fully vaccinated.

    And we're only accelerating further into the lead too, fast.

    Yet we're going to get 40k deaths. PMSL.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?

    If they are, how long before SAGE tells Johnson he needs to hold off on Step 4 until all adults have had their boosters?

    I give it four weeks.
    Nah, they won't be ready until 2022, Pfizer have updated clients and told them that booster jabs are Q12022 delivery at the earliest. Moderna are saying late Q4 but we haven't bought any and even that's probably going to slip to Q12022 as regulators figure out what kind of trials they need for modified vaccines.
    So full lockdown by October it is then...
    It wouldn't surprise me at all, regardless of what kind of boosters are or are not available.

    FWIW, I'm pretty sure I recall Windbag wibbling about boosters at his presser this evening, but if there is a campaign it looks like it's going to end up consisting of unmodified AZ and keeping our fingers crossed that the variant issues don't get significantly worse. If Max is right then we can forget about mRNA and Novavax might not arrive this side of the heat death of the universe.
    We've got 60m Pfizer doses for H2 and ostensibly 50m CureVac for Q2 also. We'll have about 40m leftover from Pfizer for booster shots. I have no idea why the government hasn't bought all of the Moderna it can. It should be approaching Moderna for UK based manufacturing and giving them all of the subsidies in the world. We need to replace AZ as the long term vaccine and Moderna feels like a good fit.
    They are reserving Moderna usage for only VVVIPs.....did I tell anybody I have my 2nd dose of it next week...
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-57465899 all adults offered in Wales apparently.

    Jab takeup right now at 87.84% of ONS-19 adults.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?

    If they are, how long before SAGE tells Johnson he needs to hold off on Step 4 until all adults have had their boosters?

    I give it four weeks.
    Nah, they won't be ready until 2022, Pfizer have updated clients and told them that booster jabs are Q12022 delivery at the earliest. Moderna are saying late Q4 but we haven't bought any and even that's probably going to slip to Q12022 as regulators figure out what kind of trials they need for modified vaccines.
    So full lockdown by October it is then...
    It wouldn't surprise me at all, regardless of what kind of boosters are or are not available.

    FWIW, I'm pretty sure I recall Windbag wibbling about boosters at his presser this evening, but if there is a campaign it looks like it's going to end up consisting of unmodified AZ and keeping our fingers crossed that the variant issues don't get significantly worse. If Max is right then we can forget about mRNA and Novavax might not arrive this side of the heat death of the universe.
    We've got 60m Pfizer doses for H2 and ostensibly 50m CureVac for Q2 also. We'll have about 40m leftover from Pfizer for booster shots. I have no idea why the government hasn't bought all of the Moderna it can. It should be approaching Moderna for UK based manufacturing and giving them all of the subsidies in the world. We need to replace AZ as the long term vaccine and Moderna feels like a good fit.
    It does seem that mRNA is the future, the lack of investment into mRNA is beginning to look like a real problem.

    Or is No-vax mRNA?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,639
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    BigRich said:

    Well, I have just done it, resigned form the conservative party. I know full well it will make no difference. but at least it separates me slightly from the Balls up.

    I'm sure many have contemplated similar.

    I'm sticking around; I want to be able to vote for Baker if necessary.
    Steve Baker as leader?

    He might be right on covid restrictions, but he's a barking mad voter repellent.
    Yes, but since when has been barking mad and voter repellent been a problem for leadership challengers?
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,082
    nico679 said:

    alex_ said:

    FPT:

    Mortimer said:

    France today:

    689 new cases
    63 new deaths
    325 new hospitalisations (+214) - England was 137
    71 new patients in intensive care (+45)

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/
    https://dashboard.covid19.data.gouv.fr/vue-d-ensemble?location=FRA

    Something doesn't look right to me.

    I really do wonder if we've been overcounting positive tested cases throughout. It would be so terribly British....
    More likely, given those numbers (and I had to go and check them at source; remarkably there are still over 12,000 Covid patients in French hospitals, and about 2,000 in intensive care) the French are grossly underreporting their cases.

    I know so little of the situation in France that I can only speculate as to why that would be. I do know some months back that it was reported that Wales was sequencing more Covid genomes in a week than France had managed in the whole of the pandemic, or some such extraordinary statistic. Is it simply that their testing infrastructure is poor and they're not detecting the vast bulk of their cases?

    In truth, a lot of tests are being conducted in France but the difference between there and the UK does nevertheless seem to be very substantial. Lacking any significant command of the French language I'm struggling slightly with that French Government website, but I think that those 689 confirmed cases must be some kind of special category in France, because the tests page seems to record about 3,800 positive tests today - but, here's the thing: the tests page also appears to suggest that the French have conducted just under 90 million tests in total so far, whereas we're now at 192 million. In terms of today alone, we have carried out just over a million tests whereas France has reported about 375,000.

    Put simply, you can't count positive cases to which you are blind.
    The French death stats only include people who die in hospitals, and have done for a long time. It wouldn't be surprising if their testing was massively skewed in that direction as well. Do they do any asymptomatic community testing like we do here?
    The French figures include hospital aswell as care home deaths , the care homes are added twice a week .The Monday figures for cases are always much lower because very little testing is done on Sundays. Anyone can get a test free of charge regardless of the reason. It’s better to look at test positivity to get a truer picture , that’s now at 1.5% , which is down from near 10% at the height of the spring wave .
    Its hard to reconcile that with the hospital numbers.

    We shall have to see if that jump in new hospitalisations continues.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,993

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?

    If they are, how long before SAGE tells Johnson he needs to hold off on Step 4 until all adults have had their boosters?

    I give it four weeks.
    Nah, they won't be ready until 2022, Pfizer have updated clients and told them that booster jabs are Q12022 delivery at the earliest. Moderna are saying late Q4 but we haven't bought any and even that's probably going to slip to Q12022 as regulators figure out what kind of trials they need for modified vaccines.
    So full lockdown by October it is then...
    It wouldn't surprise me at all, regardless of what kind of boosters are or are not available.

    FWIW, I'm pretty sure I recall Windbag wibbling about boosters at his presser this evening, but if there is a campaign it looks like it's going to end up consisting of unmodified AZ and keeping our fingers crossed that the variant issues don't get significantly worse. If Max is right then we can forget about mRNA and Novavax might not arrive this side of the heat death of the universe.
    We've got 60m Pfizer doses for H2 and ostensibly 50m CureVac for Q2 also. We'll have about 40m leftover from Pfizer for booster shots. I have no idea why the government hasn't bought all of the Moderna it can. It should be approaching Moderna for UK based manufacturing and giving them all of the subsidies in the world. We need to replace AZ as the long term vaccine and Moderna feels like a good fit.
    It does seem that mRNA is the future, the lack of investment into mRNA is beginning to look like a real problem.

    Or is No-vax mRNA?
    Novavax is not mRNA
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    Alistair said:

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    27s
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: Summer death toll could hit 40,000 #TomorrowsPapersToday

    If that is half way accurate, we are all f##ked....but I have a feeling their model is nonsense.
    I, who I would say is on the pessimistic end, believe that to be a garbage number.
    Based on the very scientific method of taking your guess that the current hotspots look like they could be 50% as bad as the autumn wave and eyeballing the national graph from last year I came up with a number of 10k.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2021

    nico679 said:

    alex_ said:

    FPT:

    Mortimer said:

    France today:

    689 new cases
    63 new deaths
    325 new hospitalisations (+214) - England was 137
    71 new patients in intensive care (+45)

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/
    https://dashboard.covid19.data.gouv.fr/vue-d-ensemble?location=FRA

    Something doesn't look right to me.

    I really do wonder if we've been overcounting positive tested cases throughout. It would be so terribly British....
    More likely, given those numbers (and I had to go and check them at source; remarkably there are still over 12,000 Covid patients in French hospitals, and about 2,000 in intensive care) the French are grossly underreporting their cases.

    I know so little of the situation in France that I can only speculate as to why that would be. I do know some months back that it was reported that Wales was sequencing more Covid genomes in a week than France had managed in the whole of the pandemic, or some such extraordinary statistic. Is it simply that their testing infrastructure is poor and they're not detecting the vast bulk of their cases?

    In truth, a lot of tests are being conducted in France but the difference between there and the UK does nevertheless seem to be very substantial. Lacking any significant command of the French language I'm struggling slightly with that French Government website, but I think that those 689 confirmed cases must be some kind of special category in France, because the tests page seems to record about 3,800 positive tests today - but, here's the thing: the tests page also appears to suggest that the French have conducted just under 90 million tests in total so far, whereas we're now at 192 million. In terms of today alone, we have carried out just over a million tests whereas France has reported about 375,000.

    Put simply, you can't count positive cases to which you are blind.
    The French death stats only include people who die in hospitals, and have done for a long time. It wouldn't be surprising if their testing was massively skewed in that direction as well. Do they do any asymptomatic community testing like we do here?
    The French figures include hospital aswell as care home deaths , the care homes are added twice a week .The Monday figures for cases are always much lower because very little testing is done on Sundays. Anyone can get a test free of charge regardless of the reason. It’s better to look at test positivity to get a truer picture , that’s now at 1.5% , which is down from near 10% at the height of the spring wave .
    Its hard to reconcile that with the hospital numbers.

    We shall have to see if that jump in new hospitalisations continues.
    It looks like a statistical quirk from a weekend effect in all the numbers.

    Their weekly average of new admissions has been around 3k for a while. 2697 as of 6 June (OurWorldInData) so 365 in a day is not a jump in admission from there.
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    darkage said:


    Over half of the population support the lockdown, it is a popular policy

    In the "data not dates" soundbite, the data isn't polling data...
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?

    If they are, how long before SAGE tells Johnson he needs to hold off on Step 4 until all adults have had their boosters?

    I give it four weeks.
    Nah, they won't be ready until 2022, Pfizer have updated clients and told them that booster jabs are Q12022 delivery at the earliest. Moderna are saying late Q4 but we haven't bought any and even that's probably going to slip to Q12022 as regulators figure out what kind of trials they need for modified vaccines.
    So full lockdown by October it is then...
    It wouldn't surprise me at all, regardless of what kind of boosters are or are not available.

    FWIW, I'm pretty sure I recall Windbag wibbling about boosters at his presser this evening, but if there is a campaign it looks like it's going to end up consisting of unmodified AZ and keeping our fingers crossed that the variant issues don't get significantly worse. If Max is right then we can forget about mRNA and Novavax might not arrive this side of the heat death of the universe.
    We've got 60m Pfizer doses for H2 and ostensibly 50m CureVac for Q2 also. We'll have about 40m leftover from Pfizer for booster shots. I have no idea why the government hasn't bought all of the Moderna it can. It should be approaching Moderna for UK based manufacturing and giving them all of the subsidies in the world. We need to replace AZ as the long term vaccine and Moderna feels like a good fit.
    It does seem that mRNA is the future, the lack of investment into mRNA is beginning to look like a real problem.

    Or is No-vax mRNA?
    Novavax is viral protein+adjuvant. It's also a really great technology but more difficult to scale up as it needs a process that includes moth egg cultivation but that will be replaced by a more reliable chemical process at some point once they've figured out the issues.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?

    If they are, how long before SAGE tells Johnson he needs to hold off on Step 4 until all adults have had their boosters?

    I give it four weeks.
    Nah, they won't be ready until 2022, Pfizer have updated clients and told them that booster jabs are Q12022 delivery at the earliest. Moderna are saying late Q4 but we haven't bought any and even that's probably going to slip to Q12022 as regulators figure out what kind of trials they need for modified vaccines.
    So full lockdown by October it is then...
    It wouldn't surprise me at all, regardless of what kind of boosters are or are not available.

    FWIW, I'm pretty sure I recall Windbag wibbling about boosters at his presser this evening, but if there is a campaign it looks like it's going to end up consisting of unmodified AZ and keeping our fingers crossed that the variant issues don't get significantly worse. If Max is right then we can forget about mRNA and Novavax might not arrive this side of the heat death of the universe.
    We've got 60m Pfizer doses for H2 and ostensibly 50m CureVac for Q2 also. We'll have about 40m leftover from Pfizer for booster shots. I have no idea why the government hasn't bought all of the Moderna it can. It should be approaching Moderna for UK based manufacturing and giving them all of the subsidies in the world. We need to replace AZ as the long term vaccine and Moderna feels like a good fit.
    It does seem that mRNA is the future, the lack of investment into mRNA is beginning to look like a real problem.

    Or is No-vax mRNA?
    Novavax is not mRNA
    So the UK doesn't have any domestic mRNA?

    We should get that rectified.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    alex_ said:
    Thanks,

    I see form that that its predicting 700 deaths a day, unless we delay unlocking by 4 weeks, then it will peek at 500.


    So as we are not delaying unlocking by 4 weeks, it should be 500. remember that number, and then keep them accountable for it.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    darkage said:


    Over half of the population support the lockdown, it is a popular policy

    In the "data not dates" soundbite, the data isn't polling data...
    [Citation Needed]
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,993
    Greetings all from Napa.

    Tomorrow is Covid freedom day in California.

    I just thought I should mention that.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    I've just noticed that the UK has just overtaken the USA in the proportion of the population fully vaccinated.

    And we're only accelerating further into the lead too, fast.

    Yet we're going to get 40k deaths. PMSL.
    Yes, apparently the vaccines are completely useless. Those PHE reports showing that they're incredible are all fake news.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?

    If they are, how long before SAGE tells Johnson he needs to hold off on Step 4 until all adults have had their boosters?

    I give it four weeks.
    Nah, they won't be ready until 2022, Pfizer have updated clients and told them that booster jabs are Q12022 delivery at the earliest. Moderna are saying late Q4 but we haven't bought any and even that's probably going to slip to Q12022 as regulators figure out what kind of trials they need for modified vaccines.
    So full lockdown by October it is then...
    It wouldn't surprise me at all, regardless of what kind of boosters are or are not available.

    FWIW, I'm pretty sure I recall Windbag wibbling about boosters at his presser this evening, but if there is a campaign it looks like it's going to end up consisting of unmodified AZ and keeping our fingers crossed that the variant issues don't get significantly worse. If Max is right then we can forget about mRNA and Novavax might not arrive this side of the heat death of the universe.
    We've got 60m Pfizer doses for H2 and ostensibly 50m CureVac for Q2 also. We'll have about 40m leftover from Pfizer for booster shots. I have no idea why the government hasn't bought all of the Moderna it can. It should be approaching Moderna for UK based manufacturing and giving them all of the subsidies in the world. We need to replace AZ as the long term vaccine and Moderna feels like a good fit.
    It does seem that mRNA is the future, the lack of investment into mRNA is beginning to look like a real problem.

    Or is No-vax mRNA?
    Novavax is not mRNA
    So the UK doesn't have any domestic mRNA?

    We should get that rectified.
    We do, CureVac gen2 is now GSK and it's been earmarked for UK manufacturing.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Pulpstar said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-57465899 all adults offered in Wales apparently.

    Jab takeup right now at 87.84% of ONS-19 adults.

    54,615 to get to 90%
    180,762 to get to 95%
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,405
    MaxPB said:

    I've just noticed that the UK has just overtaken the USA in the proportion of the population fully vaccinated.

    And we're only accelerating further into the lead too, fast.

    Yet we're going to get 40k deaths. PMSL.
    Yes, apparently the vaccines are completely useless. Those PHE reports showing that they're incredible are all fake news.
    No No No...

    The fake vaccines are brilliantly effective in protecting us from fake positives for fake COVID, fake hospitalisation and fake death.

    Drink your broth....
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    rcs1000 said:

    Greetings all from Napa.

    Tomorrow is Covid freedom day in California.

    I just thought I should mention that.

    What's San Diego like as a place to live? I've been a few times but never for a long period of time.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    BigRich said:

    alex_ said:
    Thanks,

    I see form that that its predicting 700 deaths a day, unless we delay unlocking by 4 weeks, then it will peek at 500.


    So as we are not delaying unlocking by 4 weeks, it should be 500. remember that number, and then keep them accountable for it.
    That's the change to the upper bound of the estimates. As far as I can tell the news isn't carrying the midpoint or lower bound.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Alistair said:

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    27s
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: Summer death toll could hit 40,000 #TomorrowsPapersToday

    If that is half way accurate, we are all f##ked....but I have a feeling their model is nonsense.
    I, who I would say is on the pessimistic end, believe that to be a garbage number.
    Based on the very scientific method of taking your guess that the current hotspots look like they could be 50% as bad as the autumn wave and eyeballing the national graph from last year I came up with a number of 10k.
    Where on earth are you getting anything like 50% from?

    Bolton: October 46 deaths, November (101), December (74), Jan (100), Feb (75)

    Bolton: March/April/May/June (37 deaths)
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    rcs1000 said:

    Greetings all from Napa.

    Tomorrow is Covid freedom day in California.

    I just thought I should mention that.

    Which wineries are you visiting?
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited June 2021

    alex_ said:
    Ah, I guessed wrong. It's not Warwick, it's LSHTM. Another institution with a lot to answer for.
    I'm reading the Indy write-up of this ridiculous model. It's a real peach. Note especially the following:

    The LSHTM study submitted to Sage on 8 June said that a summer wave of infections comparable to those seen in spring and autumn 2020 could be expected, with a peak in August or September.

    Well how very convenient. We must hunker down until the Autumn! The modellers will then claim that they've saved the NHS from collapse, release the blood curdling warnings of what will happen because of the cold weather and all the rest of the Autumnal excuses, and we'll be into the lockdown that they oh so desperately want to force upon us for the whole bloody Winter.

    More than half of the hospitalisations and deaths are expected to occur in unvaccinated individuals, with deaths concentrated in the over-75 age group, said the paper.

    What proportion of the over 75s have already been double jabbed? At a guess, something like 95%? Now, leaving aside the philosophical question of why we should suffer endless restrictions to protect a small minority of very, very selfish old crocs who put themselves in harms' way like this, how is the disease going to get at so many of them so quickly, against the backdrop of mass vaccination of most of the populace, good weather, and the fact that Delta has already been around for two months and has signally failed to cause any measurable increase in Covid deaths?

    It's also at this point that we must once again recall that previous SAGE predictions of the impact of unlocking during the Spring have been hugely wide of the mark.

    If the disease were as transmissible and lethal as these made up on the spot models, possessing as they do the predictive powers of Mystic Meg's bag of runes, suggest then we might as well give up and unlock anyway, because we're not going to be able to save any of these people. It will eventually seek and destroy the lot of them.

    As it is, let's just say I remain less than wholly convinced...
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    alex_ said:

    Alistair said:

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    27s
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: Summer death toll could hit 40,000 #TomorrowsPapersToday

    If that is half way accurate, we are all f##ked....but I have a feeling their model is nonsense.
    I, who I would say is on the pessimistic end, believe that to be a garbage number.
    Based on the very scientific method of taking your guess that the current hotspots look like they could be 50% as bad as the autumn wave and eyeballing the national graph from last year I came up with a number of 10k.
    Where on earth are you getting anything like 50% from?

    Bolton: October 46 deaths, November (101), December (74), Jan (100), Feb (75)

    Bolton: March/April/May/June (37 deaths)
    From this:
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    DougSeal said:

    It’s a difficult decision to make but hospitalisations and, significantly, ventilation beds in the NW are looking ominous. Hopefully things won’t be as bad this time round but a tough decision to make.


    I said earlier today that the key figures wasn't cases, hospital occupancy or even admissions.

    I said it was mechanical ventilation numbers.

    And that I was fairly relaxed.

    However I didn't realise the NW mechanical ventilation numbers were rising so fast. Still about half the speed of autumn so not pant shitting just yet but unequivocally cause for concern.

    Boris should resign obviously.
    That scale is extremely misleading, worthy of that Hames fellow from last year. It shows the current wave as a proportion of the previous wave, on a logarithmic scale. It should be on a linear scale becuase both series (wave 2 and wave 3) are exponential.
    I am basing my pessimism off of looking at the absolute numbers not that chart.
    The raw numbers don't seem to show anything like the rate of increase they did last September:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
    In the Northwest they are progressing about about half of autumn.

    As I said, not trouser shitting.

    But the danger is that the Northwest becomes the rest of the country.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    UK-Aus deal agreed on broad terms
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,636
    edited June 2021
    Rod Liddle on GB News. (Smoking a cigarette on camera, via Zoom. Don't think I've ever seen that on BBC or Sky).
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    Has there been any update on modified vaccines? Are we still going to start in September with boosters?

    If they are, how long before SAGE tells Johnson he needs to hold off on Step 4 until all adults have had their boosters?

    I give it four weeks.
    Nah, they won't be ready until 2022, Pfizer have updated clients and told them that booster jabs are Q12022 delivery at the earliest. Moderna are saying late Q4 but we haven't bought any and even that's probably going to slip to Q12022 as regulators figure out what kind of trials they need for modified vaccines.
    So full lockdown by October it is then...
    It wouldn't surprise me at all, regardless of what kind of boosters are or are not available.

    FWIW, I'm pretty sure I recall Windbag wibbling about boosters at his presser this evening, but if there is a campaign it looks like it's going to end up consisting of unmodified AZ and keeping our fingers crossed that the variant issues don't get significantly worse. If Max is right then we can forget about mRNA and Novavax might not arrive this side of the heat death of the universe.
    We've got 60m Pfizer doses for H2 and ostensibly 50m CureVac for Q2 also. We'll have about 40m leftover from Pfizer for booster shots. I have no idea why the government hasn't bought all of the Moderna it can. It should be approaching Moderna for UK based manufacturing and giving them all of the subsidies in the world. We need to replace AZ as the long term vaccine and Moderna feels like a good fit.
    It does seem that mRNA is the future, the lack of investment into mRNA is beginning to look like a real problem.

    Or is No-vax mRNA?
    Novavax is viral protein+adjuvant. It's also a really great technology but more difficult to scale up as it needs a process that includes moth egg cultivation but that will be replaced by a more reliable chemical process at some point once they've figured out the issues.
    Sadly one gets the distinct impression that "figuring out the issues" will come at some point after most of us have died of old age.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,405

    alex_ said:
    Ah, I guessed wrong. It's not Warwick, it's LSHTM. Another institution with a lot to answer for.
    I'm reading the Indy write-up of this ridiculous model. It's a real peach. Note especially the following:

    The LSHTM study submitted to Sage on 8 June said that a summer wave of infections comparable to those seen in spring and autumn 2020 could be expected, with a peak in August or September.

    Well how very convenient. We must hunker down until the Autumn! The modellers will then claim that they've saved the NHS from collapse, release the blood curdling warnings of what will happen because of the cold weather and all the rest of the Autumnal excuses, and we'll be into the lockdown that they oh so desperately want to force upon us for the whole bloody Winter.

    More than half of the hospitalisations and deaths are expected to occur in unvaccinated individuals, with deaths concentrated in the over-75 age group, said the paper.

    What proportion of the over 75s have already been double jabbed? At a guess, something like 95%? Now, leaving aside the philosophical question of why we should suffer endless restrictions to protect a small minority of very, very selfish old crocs who put themselves in harms' way like this, how is the disease going to get at so many of them so quickly, against the backdrop of mass vaccination of most of the populace, good weather, and the fact that Delta has already been around for two months and has signally failed to cause any measurable increase in Covid deaths?

    It's also at this point that we must once again recall that previous SAGE predictions of the impact of unlocking during the Spring have been hugely wide of the mark.

    If the disease were as transmissible and lethal as these made up on the spot models, possessing as they do the predictive powers of Mystic Meg's bag of runes, suggest then we might as well give up and unlock anyway, because we're not going to be able to save any of these people. It will eventually seek and destroy the lot of them.

    As it is, let's just say I remain less than wholly convinced...
    One point - quite a few of the elderly non-vaccinated may have not been given the vaccine for medical reasons.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:
    Ah, I guessed wrong. It's not Warwick, it's LSHTM. Another institution with a lot to answer for.
    I'm reading the Indy write-up of this ridiculous model. It's a real peach. Not especially the following:

    The LSHTM study submitted to Sage on 8 June said that a summer wave of infections comparable to those seen in spring and autumn 2020 could be expected, with a peak in August or September.

    Well how very convenient. We must hunker down until the Autumn! The modellers will then claim that they've saved the NHS from collapse, release the blood curdling warnings of what will happen because of the cold weather and all the rest of the Autumnal excuses, and we'll be into the lockdown that they oh so desperately want to force upon us for the whole bloody Winter.

    More than half of the hospitalisations and deaths are expected to occur in unvaccinated individuals, with deaths concentrated in the over-75 age group, said the paper.

    What proportion of the over 75s have already been double jabbed? At a guess, something like 95%? Now, leaving aside the philosophical question of why we should suffer endless restrictions to protect a small minority of very, very selfish old crocs who put themselves in harms' way like this, how is the disease going to get at so many of them so quickly, against the backdrop of mass vaccination of most of the populace, good weather, and the fact that Delta has already been around for two months and has signally failed to cause any measurable increase in Covid deaths?

    It's also at this point that we must once again recall that previous SAGE predictions of the impact of unlocking during the Spring have been hugely wide of the mark.

    If the disease were as transmissible and lethal as these made up on the spot models, possessing as they do the predictive powers of Mystic Meg's bag of runes, suggest then we might as well give up and unlock anyway, because we're not going to be able to save any of these people. It will eventually seek and destroy the lot of them.

    As it is, let's just say I remain less than wholly convinced...
    I always wonder how they determine the peak points in their curves on these models. Presumably these peaks are theoretically based on an assumption that at some point infectious individuals will start to face it increasingly difficult to run into previously uninfected individuals. But beyond the basic theory how do they come up with the figure? Unless they start off with an expected number to be infected, and work backwards.

    As you say, the difference between 500 a day and 700 a day is basically meaningless if you start from the assumption that the virus will find a way to breach the wall of vaccinated individuals and worm it's way to the vulnerable ones. It will just take a little bit longer.

    Made sense when the models were all based on the old "flatten the curve to prevent the overwhelming of the NHS" policy. But if that is no longer the policy the why does it matter whether the 40k die over 8 weeks or 12? And as you say, any 75+ year olds not vaxxed now, aint getting vaxxed.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    Alistair said:

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    27s
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: Summer death toll could hit 40,000 #TomorrowsPapersToday

    If that is half way accurate, we are all f##ked....but I have a feeling their model is nonsense.
    I, who I would say is on the pessimistic end, believe that to be a garbage number.
    Based on the very scientific method of taking your guess that the current hotspots look like they could be 50% as bad as the autumn wave and eyeballing the national graph from last year I came up with a number of 10k.
    Where on earth are you getting anything like 50% from?

    Bolton: October 46 deaths, November (101), December (74), Jan (100), Feb (75)

    Bolton: March/April/May/June (37 deaths)
    From this:
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    DougSeal said:

    It’s a difficult decision to make but hospitalisations and, significantly, ventilation beds in the NW are looking ominous. Hopefully things won’t be as bad this time round but a tough decision to make.


    I said earlier today that the key figures wasn't cases, hospital occupancy or even admissions.

    I said it was mechanical ventilation numbers.

    And that I was fairly relaxed.

    However I didn't realise the NW mechanical ventilation numbers were rising so fast. Still about half the speed of autumn so not pant shitting just yet but unequivocally cause for concern.

    Boris should resign obviously.
    That scale is extremely misleading, worthy of that Hames fellow from last year. It shows the current wave as a proportion of the previous wave, on a logarithmic scale. It should be on a linear scale becuase both series (wave 2 and wave 3) are exponential.
    I am basing my pessimism off of looking at the absolute numbers not that chart.
    The raw numbers don't seem to show anything like the rate of increase they did last September:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
    In the Northwest they are progressing about about half of autumn.

    As I said, not trouser shitting.

    But the danger is that the Northwest becomes the rest of the country.
    But that's hospitals. Not deaths.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    alex_ said:

    UK-Aus deal agreed on broad terms

    Liz Truss for PM.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,966
    Leon said:

    I wonder if there is an optimum age to become a Very Senior Politician

    On a hunch, I'd say yes, just as there is an optimum age to be a top lyric poet (early 20s), mathematician (20s), goalkeeper (around 30?), novelist (30s-60s), flint knapper (78!), and so on

    A great politician needs at least some of the vigour of youth, combined with the wisdom and neutrality of age, plus the advanced social network of midlife. And the experience gained thereby

    As Margaret Thatcher was clearly our greatest ever prime minister I'm taking her as an examplar. She was 54 when she became prime minister. Young enough to work insane hours, old enough to have acquired great social networks, much life experience - and to judge people, shrewdly (a skill that really does only come with age)

    54 then, That's it. That's the ideal age to take the top job. I'm not far beyond this so if anyone wants to suggest that I become PM in the Covid Coalition I won't resist.

    Frankly, I would have done better than Boris since late January 2020

    54?
    I stand ready to serve. Any time before late November.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Alistair said:

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    27s
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: Summer death toll could hit 40,000 #TomorrowsPapersToday

    If that is half way accurate, we are all f##ked....but I have a feeling their model is nonsense.
    I, who I would say is on the pessimistic end, believe that to be a garbage number.
    Based on the very scientific method of taking your guess that the current hotspots look like they could be 50% as bad as the autumn wave and eyeballing the national graph from last year I came up with a number of 10k.
    Where on earth are you getting anything like 50% from?

    Bolton: October 46 deaths, November (101), December (74), Jan (100), Feb (75)

    Bolton: March/April/May/June (37 deaths)
    From this:
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    DougSeal said:

    It’s a difficult decision to make but hospitalisations and, significantly, ventilation beds in the NW are looking ominous. Hopefully things won’t be as bad this time round but a tough decision to make.


    I said earlier today that the key figures wasn't cases, hospital occupancy or even admissions.

    I said it was mechanical ventilation numbers.

    And that I was fairly relaxed.

    However I didn't realise the NW mechanical ventilation numbers were rising so fast. Still about half the speed of autumn so not pant shitting just yet but unequivocally cause for concern.

    Boris should resign obviously.
    That scale is extremely misleading, worthy of that Hames fellow from last year. It shows the current wave as a proportion of the previous wave, on a logarithmic scale. It should be on a linear scale becuase both series (wave 2 and wave 3) are exponential.
    I am basing my pessimism off of looking at the absolute numbers not that chart.
    The raw numbers don't seem to show anything like the rate of increase they did last September:

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
    In the Northwest they are progressing about about half of autumn.

    As I said, not trouser shitting.

    But the danger is that the Northwest becomes the rest of the country.
    But that's hospitals. Not deaths.
    I think it's mechanical ventilation numbers, so a relatively good proxy for deaths.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited June 2021

    alex_ said:
    Ah, I guessed wrong. It's not Warwick, it's LSHTM. Another institution with a lot to answer for.
    I'm reading the Indy write-up of this ridiculous model. It's a real peach. Note especially the following:

    The LSHTM study submitted to Sage on 8 June said that a summer wave of infections comparable to those seen in spring and autumn 2020 could be expected, with a peak in August or September.

    Well how very convenient. We must hunker down until the Autumn! The modellers will then claim that they've saved the NHS from collapse, release the blood curdling warnings of what will happen because of the cold weather and all the rest of the Autumnal excuses, and we'll be into the lockdown that they oh so desperately want to force upon us for the whole bloody Winter.

    More than half of the hospitalisations and deaths are expected to occur in unvaccinated individuals, with deaths concentrated in the over-75 age group, said the paper.

    What proportion of the over 75s have already been double jabbed? At a guess, something like 95%? Now, leaving aside the philosophical question of why we should suffer endless restrictions to protect a small minority of very, very selfish old crocs who put themselves in harms' way like this, how is the disease going to get at so many of them so quickly, against the backdrop of mass vaccination of most of the populace, good weather, and the fact that Delta has already been around for two months and has signally failed to cause any measurable increase in Covid deaths?

    It's also at this point that we must once again recall that previous SAGE predictions of the impact of unlocking during the Spring have been hugely wide of the mark.

    If the disease were as transmissible and lethal as these made up on the spot models, possessing as they do the predictive powers of Mystic Meg's bag of runes, suggest then we might as well give up and unlock anyway, because we're not going to be able to save any of these people. It will eventually seek and destroy the lot of them.

    As it is, let's just say I remain less than wholly convinced...
    One point - quite a few of the elderly non-vaccinated may have not been given the vaccine for medical reasons.
    I do feel very sorry for the small minority of people who would really like the vaccines but can't have them - not just certain of the frail elderly but also some immunosuppressed persons, cancer patients and so on - but we've never mandated that the whole population should live in some kind of public health limbo to protect them from germs before, and we shouldn't start now.

    EDIT: although that's one of the major excuses that I am afraid the Susan Michies of this world will deploy sooner rather than later: masks and social distancing forever, to create a hyperclean and as close to germ-free environment as possible.

    The fact that this would likely have catastrophic long term consequences for human immune systems doesn't bother these people one iota, quite the reverse. The weaker they become, the more interventions would become necessary.

    We'd all be spending our entire lives walking around in hazmat suits in twenty years' time.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,636
    "Priti Patel has criticised the England football team for taking the knee at the European Championships, accusing them of engaging in gesture politics.

    In contrast to Boris Johnson urging the country not to boo England players for their protest, his home secretary said that it was the fans’ choice whether they did so." (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/priti-patel-will-not-condemn-booing-fans-kgmln2765
This discussion has been closed.