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On his wedding day Johnson sees rating hits on approval, competence, and likeability – politicalbett

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  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,772
    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    Re Batley & Spen

    Compare the Conservative votes from 2010 onwards

    2010 33.0%
    2015 31.2%
    2017 38.8%
    2019 36.0% +3.0% from 2010

    Not much evidence of growth there.

    Now compare with the neighbouring constituencies:

    Dewsbury
    2010 35.0%
    2015 39.1%
    2017 45.1%
    2019 46.4% +11.4% from 2010

    Calder Valley
    2010 39.4%
    2015 43.6%
    2017 46.1%
    2019 51.9% +12.5% from 2010

    Bradford South
    2010 29.1%
    2015 26.3%
    2017 38.2%
    2019 40.4% +11.3% from 2010

    Morley & Outwood
    2010 35.3%
    2015 38.9%
    2017 50.7%
    2019 56.7% +21.4% from 2010

    Wakefield
    2010 35.6%
    2015 34.2%
    2017 45.0%
    2019 47.3% +11.7% from 2010

    Huddersfield
    2010 27.8%
    2015 26.8%
    2017 33.0%
    2019 37.2% +9.6% from 2010

    It looks to me that the Conservatives have a ceiling of under 40% in Batley & Spen.

    Now you might mention the 12.2% who voted for the Heavy Wollens in 2019.

    But are the people who voted for a no hope protest party in a general election really going to switch to a governing party in a byelection ?

    Well the BXP voters in Hartlepool did you might say.

    But those Hartlepool BXP voters were voting for the party they thought could win in 2019 whereas the Heavy Wollen voters were deliberately making a protest vote during a general election.

    I think that Labour should be favourites.

    Interesting analysis.... I also note that the Yorkshire Party got 9% in the Mayoral elections...not sure if their B&S candidate is up to much but there is more volatility in the vote in my opinion which makes it tighter than many suggest. Labour as favourites is perhaps too generous but I wouldnt stake much on a Tory gain
    My dad voted for the Yorkshire Party in the GE, would you believe. We don't talk about it.
    A few things.

    From @another_richard analysis of the Yorkshire seats, it does seem as though the Heavy Woollens did take at least some of the progress out of the Tory vote in 2019. Looking at 2010-7, the Tories put on 5.8pc, certainly at the lower end of the selection for 2010-7 for those seats but not a million miles off.

    However, I’d still see the value in Labour given the circumstances etc.

    The one swing factor I think will be key will be the reaction to the Batley Grammar row. If the Woollens are UKIP-style in their views, then I can see them voting Tory off the back of that issue.
    From my reading of their site - on which their most prominent achievment appears to be raising the profile of opposition to halal meat - I would imagine they would take a dim view of the protests at Batley Grammar. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they would side with the Tories, who have hardly been unequivocal in their condemnation of the protests, I think?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,508
    ping said:

    Lol @ the Catholic Church

    They won’t marry even celibate gays because that’s “objectively disordered” but will happily marry a twice divorced ex-anglican who won’t admit how many kids he’s got.

    What a joke of a religion.

    As far as the Catholic Church is concerned if they did not participate in the Sacrament of Marriage (Get married in a Catholic service) then it doesn't count.

    To qualify to marry they have to:

    Both have been baptized Catholic
    One of them be practicing Catholic now.
    Neither have previously participated in the Sacrament of Marriage.

    I mean in the end it is all mumbo jumbo as far as I am concerned but they are following the rules as set out by the Church.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    Cookie said:

    Joyous & Civic!

    English tourists - Scotland is closed and doesn't want your money:

    Just what our "beautiful isles" don't need; more Torygraph readers.

    https://twitter.com/ruth_wishart/status/1398913746777612288?s=20

    In all tourist areas there is something of a tension between the need to bring in tourist spend and the understandable irritation that your area is full of tourists. But Scotland does seem to be going further than most in terms of the number and prominence of voices telling tourists that they aren't wanted.
    Especially given that Scotland's current covid rate is double that of England.
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 337
    Fishing said:

    Sean_F said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that completely underestimates the interaction of the departments, particularly in a time of crisis.

    Seemed to work well enough for hundreds of years, through several wars and at least one other pandemic.
    I think a study of the UK state response to national crises would probably show that the response to the Covid pandemic is far from an outlier. In simplistic terms - poor start, dodgy middle, strong finish. Generally leaving a longer lasting historical perception that the system worked out pretty well.
    It seems to match the way we have always fought wars as well - at least over the last two centuries.

    1 - Start off woefully unprepared because we are still planning on fighting the same way as last time. Because of course we kind of won.
    2 - Have a few really bad battles where a lot of men get killed unnecessarily because of outdated tactics.
    3 - Learn lessons very very rapidly and bring in senior leadership who not only get the new paradigms but also have the ability to think ahead and create their own innovations
    4 - Finish strongly with a victory that is completely misunderstood as meaning we got everything right and we now are secure with cutting edge strategy and tactics in case of future wars.

    Return to number 1 and do it all over again a couple of decades later.

    Crimea
    Boer War
    WW1
    WW2

    Every time we followed this same pattern.
    Or not so rapidly, in the case of WW1... Churchill moving his way around the Cabinet table?!
    I think you are being very generous about the British Army in WW2.... I am not sure British troops had a particularly strong victory apart from a few local battles... our friends from across the water, the commonwealth or the Urals did nearly all the heavy lifiting....
    From late 1942, the army performed well. The record of the Royal Navy was outstanding from the beginning.
    The crews of HMS Courageous and HMS Glorious might disagree with that slightly superficial analysis.
    The Navy did much better against the Germans and Italians than against the Japanese.
    Perhaps. HMS Courageous was sunk September 1939, Glorious in June 1940. The Royal Navy was light on aircraft carriers for some time.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    kinabalu said:

    Re Batley & Spen

    Compare the Conservative votes from 2010 onwards

    2010 33.0%
    2015 31.2%
    2017 38.8%
    2019 36.0% +3.0% from 2010

    Not much evidence of growth there.

    Now compare with the neighbouring constituencies:

    Dewsbury
    2010 35.0%
    2015 39.1%
    2017 45.1%
    2019 46.4% +11.4% from 2010

    Calder Valley
    2010 39.4%
    2015 43.6%
    2017 46.1%
    2019 51.9% +12.5% from 2010

    Bradford South
    2010 29.1%
    2015 26.3%
    2017 38.2%
    2019 40.4% +11.3% from 2010

    Morley & Outwood
    2010 35.3%
    2015 38.9%
    2017 50.7%
    2019 56.7% +21.4% from 2010

    Wakefield
    2010 35.6%
    2015 34.2%
    2017 45.0%
    2019 47.3% +11.7% from 2010

    Huddersfield
    2010 27.8%
    2015 26.8%
    2017 33.0%
    2019 37.2% +9.6% from 2010

    It looks to me that the Conservatives have a ceiling of under 40% in Batley & Spen.

    Now you might mention the 12.2% who voted for the Heavy Wollens in 2019.

    But are the people who voted for a no hope protest party in a general election really going to switch to a governing party in a byelection ?

    Well the BXP voters in Hartlepool did you might say.

    But those Hartlepool BXP voters were voting for the party they thought could win in 2019 whereas the Heavy Wollen voters were deliberately making a protest vote during a general election.

    I think that Labour should be favourites.

    I'm leaning to Labour here too.

    Re the Woollens, that's a hardcore racist vote, so whilst all votes count one, and all parties need votes, you'd have to ask yourself some hard questions if that bloc moves en masse to a party that you lead, are a member of, or support.
    What evidence is there that the Woolens are racists? Or that they're people who view UKIP as too soft?

    I see this accusation bandied about a lot - especially by those on the left - but I've not seen any evidence of it.

    These are people who abandoned UKIP when UKIP marched to racist policies post-referendum, and their website doesn't mention race at all.

    Abandoning UKIP when UKIP is going outright racist is a good thing not a bad one in my eyes.
    UKIP always was racist Philip. If I remember correctly you admitted voting for them. You voted for a party that we knew and you knew was overtly racist. It's founder, Alan Sked, has said on a number of times that Farage, the man that reshaped UKIP in his own image was a racist. Even the Daily Mail reported it.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2608676/UKIP-founder-calls-Farage-dim-racist-alcoholic-poll-says-MP.html
    You remember wrong.

    I have never voted for UKIP and I never would.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Fishing said:

    Sean_F said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that completely underestimates the interaction of the departments, particularly in a time of crisis.

    Seemed to work well enough for hundreds of years, through several wars and at least one other pandemic.
    I think a study of the UK state response to national crises would probably show that the response to the Covid pandemic is far from an outlier. In simplistic terms - poor start, dodgy middle, strong finish. Generally leaving a longer lasting historical perception that the system worked out pretty well.
    It seems to match the way we have always fought wars as well - at least over the last two centuries.

    1 - Start off woefully unprepared because we are still planning on fighting the same way as last time. Because of course we kind of won.
    2 - Have a few really bad battles where a lot of men get killed unnecessarily because of outdated tactics.
    3 - Learn lessons very very rapidly and bring in senior leadership who not only get the new paradigms but also have the ability to think ahead and create their own innovations
    4 - Finish strongly with a victory that is completely misunderstood as meaning we got everything right and we now are secure with cutting edge strategy and tactics in case of future wars.

    Return to number 1 and do it all over again a couple of decades later.

    Crimea
    Boer War
    WW1
    WW2

    Every time we followed this same pattern.
    Or not so rapidly, in the case of WW1... Churchill moving his way around the Cabinet table?!
    I think you are being very generous about the British Army in WW2.... I am not sure British troops had a particularly strong victory apart from a few local battles... our friends from across the water, the commonwealth or the Urals did nearly all the heavy lifiting....
    From late 1942, the army performed well. The record of the Royal Navy was outstanding from the beginning.
    The crews of HMS Courageous and HMS Glorious might disagree with that slightly superficial analysis.
    The Navy did much better against the Germans and Italians than against the Japanese.
    Perhaps. HMS Courageous was sunk September 1939, Glorious in June 1940. The Royal Navy was light on aircraft carriers for some time.
    Might not be too surprising. The IJN was very much trained, organised etc on British lines (the British built many of the IJN’s early battleships). Also, easy to let the Prince of Wales / Respite losses cloud the picture which was a one-off loss due to air power
  • TresTres Posts: 2,694
    Oh thank you again Mr Johnson for your marvellous Brexit.

    The UK's biggest builders' merchant has warned customers of "considerable" cost increases to raw materials amid an industry-wide shortage. As first reported by the Times, Travis Perkins says the price of bagged cement will rise by 15%, chipboard by 10% and paint by 5% from Tuesday.
    I
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Cookie said:

    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    Re Batley & Spen

    Compare the Conservative votes from 2010 onwards

    2010 33.0%
    2015 31.2%
    2017 38.8%
    2019 36.0% +3.0% from 2010

    Not much evidence of growth there.

    Now compare with the neighbouring constituencies:

    Dewsbury
    2010 35.0%
    2015 39.1%
    2017 45.1%
    2019 46.4% +11.4% from 2010

    Calder Valley
    2010 39.4%
    2015 43.6%
    2017 46.1%
    2019 51.9% +12.5% from 2010

    Bradford South
    2010 29.1%
    2015 26.3%
    2017 38.2%
    2019 40.4% +11.3% from 2010

    Morley & Outwood
    2010 35.3%
    2015 38.9%
    2017 50.7%
    2019 56.7% +21.4% from 2010

    Wakefield
    2010 35.6%
    2015 34.2%
    2017 45.0%
    2019 47.3% +11.7% from 2010

    Huddersfield
    2010 27.8%
    2015 26.8%
    2017 33.0%
    2019 37.2% +9.6% from 2010

    It looks to me that the Conservatives have a ceiling of under 40% in Batley & Spen.

    Now you might mention the 12.2% who voted for the Heavy Wollens in 2019.

    But are the people who voted for a no hope protest party in a general election really going to switch to a governing party in a byelection ?

    Well the BXP voters in Hartlepool did you might say.

    But those Hartlepool BXP voters were voting for the party they thought could win in 2019 whereas the Heavy Wollen voters were deliberately making a protest vote during a general election.

    I think that Labour should be favourites.

    Interesting analysis.... I also note that the Yorkshire Party got 9% in the Mayoral elections...not sure if their B&S candidate is up to much but there is more volatility in the vote in my opinion which makes it tighter than many suggest. Labour as favourites is perhaps too generous but I wouldnt stake much on a Tory gain
    My dad voted for the Yorkshire Party in the GE, would you believe. We don't talk about it.
    A few things.

    From @another_richard analysis of the Yorkshire seats, it does seem as though the Heavy Woollens did take at least some of the progress out of the Tory vote in 2019. Looking at 2010-7, the Tories put on 5.8pc, certainly at the lower end of the selection for 2010-7 for those seats but not a million miles off.

    However, I’d still see the value in Labour given the circumstances etc.

    The one swing factor I think will be key will be the reaction to the Batley Grammar row. If the Woollens are UKIP-style in their views, then I can see them voting Tory off the back of that issue.
    From my reading of their site - on which their most prominent achievment appears to be raising the profile of opposition to halal meat - I would imagine they would take a dim view of the protests at Batley Grammar. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they would side with the Tories, who have hardly been unequivocal in their condemnation of the protests, I think?
    I think it’s hard to say but I think this issue will very much be raised and I suspect Labour is going to get itself in knots trying to keep its Muslim voters on side while sounding as though it is supporting the teacher. That runs the risk of the Woollens voting Tory to punish Labour.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,113

    kinabalu said:

    Re Batley & Spen

    Compare the Conservative votes from 2010 onwards

    2010 33.0%
    2015 31.2%
    2017 38.8%
    2019 36.0% +3.0% from 2010

    Not much evidence of growth there.

    Now compare with the neighbouring constituencies:

    Dewsbury
    2010 35.0%
    2015 39.1%
    2017 45.1%
    2019 46.4% +11.4% from 2010

    Calder Valley
    2010 39.4%
    2015 43.6%
    2017 46.1%
    2019 51.9% +12.5% from 2010

    Bradford South
    2010 29.1%
    2015 26.3%
    2017 38.2%
    2019 40.4% +11.3% from 2010

    Morley & Outwood
    2010 35.3%
    2015 38.9%
    2017 50.7%
    2019 56.7% +21.4% from 2010

    Wakefield
    2010 35.6%
    2015 34.2%
    2017 45.0%
    2019 47.3% +11.7% from 2010

    Huddersfield
    2010 27.8%
    2015 26.8%
    2017 33.0%
    2019 37.2% +9.6% from 2010

    It looks to me that the Conservatives have a ceiling of under 40% in Batley & Spen.

    Now you might mention the 12.2% who voted for the Heavy Wollens in 2019.

    But are the people who voted for a no hope protest party in a general election really going to switch to a governing party in a byelection ?

    Well the BXP voters in Hartlepool did you might say.

    But those Hartlepool BXP voters were voting for the party they thought could win in 2019 whereas the Heavy Wollen voters were deliberately making a protest vote during a general election.

    I think that Labour should be favourites.

    I'm leaning to Labour here too.

    Re the Woollens, that's a hardcore racist vote, so whilst all votes count one, and all parties need votes, you'd have to ask yourself some hard questions if that bloc moves en masse to a party that you lead, are a member of, or support.
    What evidence is there that the Woolens are racists? Or that they're people who view UKIP as too soft?

    I see this accusation bandied about a lot - especially by those on the left - but I've not seen any evidence of it.

    These are people who abandoned UKIP when UKIP marched to racist policies post-referendum, and their website doesn't mention race at all.

    Abandoning UKIP when UKIP is going outright racist is a good thing not a bad one in my eyes.
    UKIP always was racist Philip. If I remember correctly you admitted voting for them. You voted for a party that we knew and you knew was overtly racist. It's founder, Alan Sked, has said on a number of times that Farage, the man that reshaped UKIP in his own image was a racist. Even the Daily Mail reported it.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2608676/UKIP-founder-calls-Farage-dim-racist-alcoholic-poll-says-MP.html
    You remember wrong.

    I have never voted for UKIP and I never would.
    Didn't you vote Ukip in the last EU elections to send a message to get rid of May?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950
    edited May 2021

    Cookie said:

    Joyous & Civic!

    English tourists - Scotland is closed and doesn't want your money:

    Just what our "beautiful isles" don't need; more Torygraph readers.

    https://twitter.com/ruth_wishart/status/1398913746777612288?s=20

    In all tourist areas there is something of a tension between the need to bring in tourist spend and the understandable irritation that your area is full of tourists. But Scotland does seem to be going further than most in terms of the number and prominence of voices telling tourists that they aren't wanted.
    Especially given that Scotland's current covid rate is double that of England.
    In that case how thoughtful of ‘prominent voices’ not wanting impetuous Torygraph readers to put themselves in harm’s way.

    Perhaps a bit of restrained consideration might be in order if that could be imagined from a Telegraph reader. I’ve cancelled my own N.Uist holiday because I’m in a high Covid area and our booked accommodation for people from 6 households would break the current rules. So far I’ve managed not to collapse into a self pitying paroxysm against the anti Weegieists.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,785
    edited May 2021
    Had an interesting chat with a senior London NHS person last night, he said that the current rate of vaccination, especially first doses, is rate limited by demand in most of the country. They're weighing up whether they should switch up opening hours to prefer evenings and weekends for under 40s who are struggling to get those spots right now while weekday daytime appointments are going unused. He said we have got vaccine availability in London to double first doses but not enough evening appointments to do it.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,361

    Cookie said:

    Joyous & Civic!

    English tourists - Scotland is closed and doesn't want your money:

    Just what our "beautiful isles" don't need; more Torygraph readers.

    https://twitter.com/ruth_wishart/status/1398913746777612288?s=20

    In all tourist areas there is something of a tension between the need to bring in tourist spend and the understandable irritation that your area is full of tourists. But Scotland does seem to be going further than most in terms of the number and prominence of voices telling tourists that they aren't wanted.
    Especially given that Scotland's current covid rate is double that of England.
    In that case how thoughtful of ‘prominent voices’ not wanting impetuous Torygraph readers to put themselves in harm’s way.

    Perhaps a bit of consideration might be in order if that could be imagined from a Telegraph reader. I’ve cancelled my own N.Uist holiday because I’m in a high Covid area and our booked accommodation for people from 6 households would break the current rules. So far I’ve managed not to collapse into a self pitying paroxysm against the anti Weegieists.
    Ha ha, prejudice against people who read the wrong paper is ‘thoughtful’.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Cookie said:

    Joyous & Civic!

    English tourists - Scotland is closed and doesn't want your money:

    Just what our "beautiful isles" don't need; more Torygraph readers.

    https://twitter.com/ruth_wishart/status/1398913746777612288?s=20

    In all tourist areas there is something of a tension between the need to bring in tourist spend and the understandable irritation that your area is full of tourists. But Scotland does seem to be going further than most in terms of the number and prominence of voices telling tourists that they aren't wanted.
    Especially given that Scotland's current covid rate is double that of England.
    In that case how thoughtful of ‘prominent voices’ not wanting impetuous Torygraph readers to put themselves in harm’s way.

    Perhaps a bit of consideration might be in order if that could be imagined from a Telegraph reader. I’ve cancelled my own N.Uist holiday because I’m in a high Covid area and our booked accommodation for people from 6 households would break the current rules. So far I’ve managed not to collapse into a self pitying paroxysm against the anti Weegieists.
    It’s the barely disguised Anglophobia that does it. It would be less offensive if it was out in the open. They think we’re blind or something.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950
    edited May 2021
    Taz said:

    Cookie said:

    Joyous & Civic!

    English tourists - Scotland is closed and doesn't want your money:

    Just what our "beautiful isles" don't need; more Torygraph readers.

    https://twitter.com/ruth_wishart/status/1398913746777612288?s=20

    In all tourist areas there is something of a tension between the need to bring in tourist spend and the understandable irritation that your area is full of tourists. But Scotland does seem to be going further than most in terms of the number and prominence of voices telling tourists that they aren't wanted.
    Especially given that Scotland's current covid rate is double that of England.
    In that case how thoughtful of ‘prominent voices’ not wanting impetuous Torygraph readers to put themselves in harm’s way.

    Perhaps a bit of consideration might be in order if that could be imagined from a Telegraph reader. I’ve cancelled my own N.Uist holiday because I’m in a high Covid area and our booked accommodation for people from 6 households would break the current rules. So far I’ve managed not to collapse into a self pitying paroxysm against the anti Weegieists.
    Ha ha, prejudice against people who read the wrong paper is ‘thoughtful’.
    The Telegraph is a shitrag, I try to focus my prejudices on the paper rather than the readers (my dad was one, when it still had a claim to be serious newspaper), sometimes unsuccessfully.

    Much like the Tories and those who vote for them.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,113
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that completely underestimates the interaction of the departments, particularly in a time of crisis.

    Seemed to work well enough for hundreds of years, through several wars and at least one other pandemic.
    I think a study of the UK state response to national crises would probably show that the response to the Covid pandemic is far from an outlier. In simplistic terms - poor start, dodgy middle, strong finish. Generally leaving a longer lasting historical perception that the system worked out pretty well.
    It seems to match the way we have always fought wars as well - at least over the last two centuries.

    1 - Start off woefully unprepared because we are still planning on fighting the same way as last time. Because of course we kind of won.
    2 - Have a few really bad battles where a lot of men get killed unnecessarily because of outdated tactics.
    3 - Learn lessons very very rapidly and bring in senior leadership who not only get the new paradigms but also have the ability to think ahead and create their own innovations
    4 - Finish strongly with a victory that is completely misunderstood as meaning we got everything right and we now are secure with cutting edge strategy and tactics in case of future wars.

    Return to number 1 and do it all over again a couple of decades later.

    Crimea
    Boer War
    WW1
    WW2

    Every time we followed this same pattern.
    Or not so rapidly, in the case of WW1... Churchill moving his way around the Cabinet table?!
    I think you are being very generous about the British Army in WW2.... I am not sure British troops had a particularly strong victory apart from a few local battles... our friends from across the water, the commonwealth or the Urals did nearly all the heavy lifiting....
    The main British contribution to WW2 was not losing. But quite an important one.
    There is the story that in 1945, the Soviets interrogated the top Wehrmacht general, von Rundstedt, and asked which was the most crucial battle of the war, expecting him to say Stalingrad or some such. He told them, the Battle of Britain.

    As you say, Britain fighting on was key to the war. America was still neutral, and Germany would not have been fighting a two- or three-front war so could turn all its might against the Soviet Union, which might have been compelled to make peace and cede the Ukraine.
    I don’t think Russia could have lost outright, after winning the Battle of Moscow, but as you say, the Germans might well have secured an advantageous peace in the East.
    A Germany that wasn't fighting on two fronts might well have won the Battle of Moscow, particularly if they had started the invasion a month or so earlier.


    I’m reading a superb book about Churchill and this period of the war - 1940-41 - the Blitz to Barbarossa. It’s called The Splendid and the Vile. A number 1 NYT bestseller and deservedly so

    It makes the point, firmly, that Britain staying in the war was crucial to America entering the war. If Britain had succumbed in 40-41, America would have stayed neutral, Hitler would have taken Moscow. Endex
    That is a genuinely excellent book.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,812
    edited May 2021
    DougSeal said:

    Cookie said:

    Joyous & Civic!

    English tourists - Scotland is closed and doesn't want your money:

    Just what our "beautiful isles" don't need; more Torygraph readers.

    https://twitter.com/ruth_wishart/status/1398913746777612288?s=20

    In all tourist areas there is something of a tension between the need to bring in tourist spend and the understandable irritation that your area is full of tourists. But Scotland does seem to be going further than most in terms of the number and prominence of voices telling tourists that they aren't wanted.
    Especially given that Scotland's current covid rate is double that of England.
    In that case how thoughtful of ‘prominent voices’ not wanting impetuous Torygraph readers to put themselves in harm’s way.

    Perhaps a bit of consideration might be in order if that could be imagined from a Telegraph reader. I’ve cancelled my own N.Uist holiday because I’m in a high Covid area and our booked accommodation for people from 6 households would break the current rules. So far I’ve managed not to collapse into a self pitying paroxysm against the anti Weegieists.
    It’s the barely disguised Anglophobia that does it. It would be less offensive if it was out in the open. They think we’re blind or something.
    Plenty of Tels are sold in Scotland.

    Edit: And Wales, and for all I know in the 6 Counties.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,113
    On the subject of the second world war, can I recommend everyone reads Ian Toll's incredible trilogy on the Pacific War.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,210
    Tres said:

    Oh thank you again Mr Johnson for your marvellous Brexit.

    The UK's biggest builders' merchant has warned customers of "considerable" cost increases to raw materials amid an industry-wide shortage. As first reported by the Times, Travis Perkins says the price of bagged cement will rise by 15%, chipboard by 10% and paint by 5% from Tuesday.
    I

    No, not in this case. The shortages of various materials is due to massive demand, combined with some rather interesting behaviour from the major (UK) producers.

    They are, essentially, refusing to increase production to meet what they see as a short term demand spike. The increase in prices has absolutely nothing to do with the their decisions and is completely outside their control. No sir, absolutely not...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,591
    The SNP discover the London Underground:
    image
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that completely underestimates the interaction of the departments, particularly in a time of crisis.

    Seemed to work well enough for hundreds of years, through several wars and at least one other pandemic.
    I think a study of the UK state response to national crises would probably show that the response to the Covid pandemic is far from an outlier. In simplistic terms - poor start, dodgy middle, strong finish. Generally leaving a longer lasting historical perception that the system worked out pretty well.
    It seems to match the way we have always fought wars as well - at least over the last two centuries.

    1 - Start off woefully unprepared because we are still planning on fighting the same way as last time. Because of course we kind of won.
    2 - Have a few really bad battles where a lot of men get killed unnecessarily because of outdated tactics.
    3 - Learn lessons very very rapidly and bring in senior leadership who not only get the new paradigms but also have the ability to think ahead and create their own innovations
    4 - Finish strongly with a victory that is completely misunderstood as meaning we got everything right and we now are secure with cutting edge strategy and tactics in case of future wars.

    Return to number 1 and do it all over again a couple of decades later.

    Crimea
    Boer War
    WW1
    WW2

    Every time we followed this same pattern.
    Or not so rapidly, in the case of WW1... Churchill moving his way around the Cabinet table?!
    I think you are being very generous about the British Army in WW2.... I am not sure British troops had a particularly strong victory apart from a few local battles... our friends from across the water, the commonwealth or the Urals did nearly all the heavy lifiting....
    From late 1942, the army performed well. The record of the Royal Navy was outstanding from the beginning.
    The crews of HMS Courageous and HMS Glorious might disagree with that slightly superficial analysis.
    With names like those how bad could they have been?
    It was a boom year for shipbuilding the year HMS Average and HMS OK In A Pinch set sail.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585

    Cookie said:

    Joyous & Civic!

    English tourists - Scotland is closed and doesn't want your money:

    Just what our "beautiful isles" don't need; more Torygraph readers.

    https://twitter.com/ruth_wishart/status/1398913746777612288?s=20

    In all tourist areas there is something of a tension between the need to bring in tourist spend and the understandable irritation that your area is full of tourists. But Scotland does seem to be going further than most in terms of the number and prominence of voices telling tourists that they aren't wanted.
    Especially given that Scotland's current covid rate is double that of England.
    In that case how thoughtful of ‘prominent voices’ not wanting impetuous Torygraph readers to put themselves in harm’s way.

    Perhaps a bit of restrained consideration might be in order if that could be imagined from a Telegraph reader. I’ve cancelled my own N.Uist holiday because I’m in a high Covid area and our booked accommodation for people from 6 households would break the current rules. So far I’ve managed not to collapse into a self pitying paroxysm against the anti Weegieists.
    Its always a good tell when you dip into the 'weegieists' vocabulary.

    Interesting how all the zero covid talk has stopped from Scotland don't you think.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,210

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that completely underestimates the interaction of the departments, particularly in a time of crisis.

    Seemed to work well enough for hundreds of years, through several wars and at least one other pandemic.
    I think a study of the UK state response to national crises would probably show that the response to the Covid pandemic is far from an outlier. In simplistic terms - poor start, dodgy middle, strong finish. Generally leaving a longer lasting historical perception that the system worked out pretty well.
    It seems to match the way we have always fought wars as well - at least over the last two centuries.

    1 - Start off woefully unprepared because we are still planning on fighting the same way as last time. Because of course we kind of won.
    2 - Have a few really bad battles where a lot of men get killed unnecessarily because of outdated tactics.
    3 - Learn lessons very very rapidly and bring in senior leadership who not only get the new paradigms but also have the ability to think ahead and create their own innovations
    4 - Finish strongly with a victory that is completely misunderstood as meaning we got everything right and we now are secure with cutting edge strategy and tactics in case of future wars.

    Return to number 1 and do it all over again a couple of decades later.

    Crimea
    Boer War
    WW1
    WW2

    Every time we followed this same pattern.
    Or not so rapidly, in the case of WW1... Churchill moving his way around the Cabinet table?!
    I think you are being very generous about the British Army in WW2.... I am not sure British troops had a particularly strong victory apart from a few local battles... our friends from across the water, the commonwealth or the Urals did nearly all the heavy lifiting....
    From late 1942, the army performed well. The record of the Royal Navy was outstanding from the beginning.
    The crews of HMS Courageous and HMS Glorious might disagree with that slightly superficial analysis.
    With names like those how bad could they have been?
    It was a boom year for shipbuilding the year HMS Average and HMS OK In A Pinch set sail.
    {HMS Invincible (1907) has entered the chat}
    {HMS Indefatigable (1909) has entered the chat}
    {HMS Irresistible (1898) has entered the chat}
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,113
    MaxPB said:

    Had an interesting chat with a senior London NHS person last night, he said that the current rate of vaccination, especially first doses, is rate limited by demand in most of the country. They're weighing up whether they should switch up opening hours to prefer evenings and weekends for under 40s who are struggling to get those spots right now while weekday daytime appointments are going unused. He said we have got vaccine availability in London to double first doses but not enough evening appointments to do it.

    Why not just follow the US model and: (a) allow anyone to book appointments, as everyone benefits when anyone is jabbed, and (b) allow pharmacies to distribute too, so that there are additional routes to market?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    MaxPB said:

    Had an interesting chat with a senior London NHS person last night, he said that the current rate of vaccination, especially first doses, is rate limited by demand in most of the country. They're weighing up whether they should switch up opening hours to prefer evenings and weekends for under 40s who are struggling to get those spots right now while weekday daytime appointments are going unused. He said we have got vaccine availability in London to double first doses but not enough evening appointments to do it.

    That would make sense.

    Or perhaps increase the number of locations to reduce travel time.

    I wonder how much lower car ownership among the young, especially in London, has an effect.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that completely underestimates the interaction of the departments, particularly in a time of crisis.

    Seemed to work well enough for hundreds of years, through several wars and at least one other pandemic.
    I think a study of the UK state response to national crises would probably show that the response to the Covid pandemic is far from an outlier. In simplistic terms - poor start, dodgy middle, strong finish. Generally leaving a longer lasting historical perception that the system worked out pretty well.
    It seems to match the way we have always fought wars as well - at least over the last two centuries.

    1 - Start off woefully unprepared because we are still planning on fighting the same way as last time. Because of course we kind of won.
    2 - Have a few really bad battles where a lot of men get killed unnecessarily because of outdated tactics.
    3 - Learn lessons very very rapidly and bring in senior leadership who not only get the new paradigms but also have the ability to think ahead and create their own innovations
    4 - Finish strongly with a victory that is completely misunderstood as meaning we got everything right and we now are secure with cutting edge strategy and tactics in case of future wars.

    Return to number 1 and do it all over again a couple of decades later.

    Crimea
    Boer War
    WW1
    WW2

    Every time we followed this same pattern.
    Or not so rapidly, in the case of WW1... Churchill moving his way around the Cabinet table?!
    I think you are being very generous about the British Army in WW2.... I am not sure British troops had a particularly strong victory apart from a few local battles... our friends from across the water, the commonwealth or the Urals did nearly all the heavy lifiting....
    From late 1942, the army performed well. The record of the Royal Navy was outstanding from the beginning.
    The crews of HMS Courageous and HMS Glorious might disagree with that slightly superficial analysis.
    With names like those how bad could they have been?
    It was a boom year for shipbuilding the year HMS Average and HMS OK In A Pinch set sail.
    There were several boats named HMS Spiteful, and a fighter, the Supermarine Spiteful. In the unlikely event that the UK ever designs a frontline fighter again, that moniker should definitely be top of the list.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,047
    Good to see the news focuses on the most important details

    The partner of the son of Lord Ashcroft, the millionaire businessman and pollster, is in custody in Belize after a police officer was shot dead.


    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-57298507
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Had an interesting chat with a senior London NHS person last night, he said that the current rate of vaccination, especially first doses, is rate limited by demand in most of the country. They're weighing up whether they should switch up opening hours to prefer evenings and weekends for under 40s who are struggling to get those spots right now while weekday daytime appointments are going unused. He said we have got vaccine availability in London to double first doses but not enough evening appointments to do it.

    Why not just follow the US model and: (a) allow anyone to book appointments, as everyone benefits when anyone is jabbed, and (b) allow pharmacies to distribute too, so that there are additional routes to market?
    Yep - we must be close to just throwing open the bookings surely?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    Tres said:

    Oh thank you again Mr Johnson for your marvellous Brexit.

    The UK's biggest builders' merchant has warned customers of "considerable" cost increases to raw materials amid an industry-wide shortage. As first reported by the Times, Travis Perkins says the price of bagged cement will rise by 15%, chipboard by 10% and paint by 5% from Tuesday.
    I

    Brexit must be marvellous if its causing price rises and stock shortages throughout the world.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,047


    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that completely underestimates the interaction of the departments, particularly in a time of crisis.

    Seemed to work well enough for hundreds of years, through several wars and at least one other pandemic.
    I think a study of the UK state response to national crises would probably show that the response to the Covid pandemic is far from an outlier. In simplistic terms - poor start, dodgy middle, strong finish. Generally leaving a longer lasting historical perception that the system worked out pretty well.
    It seems to match the way we have always fought wars as well - at least over the last two centuries.

    1 - Start off woefully unprepared because we are still planning on fighting the same way as last time. Because of course we kind of won.
    2 - Have a few really bad battles where a lot of men get killed unnecessarily because of outdated tactics.
    3 - Learn lessons very very rapidly and bring in senior leadership who not only get the new paradigms but also have the ability to think ahead and create their own innovations
    4 - Finish strongly with a victory that is completely misunderstood as meaning we got everything right and we now are secure with cutting edge strategy and tactics in case of future wars.

    Return to number 1 and do it all over again a couple of decades later.

    Crimea
    Boer War
    WW1
    WW2

    Every time we followed this same pattern.
    Or not so rapidly, in the case of WW1... Churchill moving his way around the Cabinet table?!
    I think you are being very generous about the British Army in WW2.... I am not sure British troops had a particularly strong victory apart from a few local battles... our friends from across the water, the commonwealth or the Urals did nearly all the heavy lifiting....
    From late 1942, the army performed well. The record of the Royal Navy was outstanding from the beginning.
    The crews of HMS Courageous and HMS Glorious might disagree with that slightly superficial analysis.
    With names like those how bad could they have been?
    It was a boom year for shipbuilding the year HMS Average and HMS OK In A Pinch set sail.
    There were several boats named HMS Spiteful, and a fighter, the Supermarine Spiteful. In the unlikely event that the UK ever designs a frontline fighter again, that moniker should definitely be top of the list.
    No HMS White Elephant? For service in SE Asia.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950

    Cookie said:

    Joyous & Civic!

    English tourists - Scotland is closed and doesn't want your money:

    Just what our "beautiful isles" don't need; more Torygraph readers.

    https://twitter.com/ruth_wishart/status/1398913746777612288?s=20

    In all tourist areas there is something of a tension between the need to bring in tourist spend and the understandable irritation that your area is full of tourists. But Scotland does seem to be going further than most in terms of the number and prominence of voices telling tourists that they aren't wanted.
    Especially given that Scotland's current covid rate is double that of England.
    In that case how thoughtful of ‘prominent voices’ not wanting impetuous Torygraph readers to put themselves in harm’s way.

    Perhaps a bit of restrained consideration might be in order if that could be imagined from a Telegraph reader. I’ve cancelled my own N.Uist holiday because I’m in a high Covid area and our booked accommodation for people from 6 households would break the current rules. So far I’ve managed not to collapse into a self pitying paroxysm against the anti Weegieists.
    Its always a good tell when you dip into the 'weegieists' vocabulary.

    Interesting how all the zero covid talk has stopped from Scotland don't you think.
    A tell of what? Do elucidate.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,210

    The SNP discover the London Underground:
    image

    They've been using those colours since I can remember....

    From a browse about, this livery has been in use since the 1970s?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,210

    MaxPB said:

    Had an interesting chat with a senior London NHS person last night, he said that the current rate of vaccination, especially first doses, is rate limited by demand in most of the country. They're weighing up whether they should switch up opening hours to prefer evenings and weekends for under 40s who are struggling to get those spots right now while weekday daytime appointments are going unused. He said we have got vaccine availability in London to double first doses but not enough evening appointments to do it.

    That would make sense.

    Or perhaps increase the number of locations to reduce travel time.

    I wonder how much lower car ownership among the young, especially in London, has an effect.
    The vaccinations centres seem plentiful. And sensibly close to tube stations and major bus routes.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,210

    Tres said:

    Oh thank you again Mr Johnson for your marvellous Brexit.

    The UK's biggest builders' merchant has warned customers of "considerable" cost increases to raw materials amid an industry-wide shortage. As first reported by the Times, Travis Perkins says the price of bagged cement will rise by 15%, chipboard by 10% and paint by 5% from Tuesday.
    I

    Brexit must be marvellous if its causing price rises and stock shortages throughout the world.
    The steel issue is worldwide - though exacerbated in the UK by a couple of the importers.

    Alot of cement and paint is produced domestically.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,242
    kle4 said:


    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that completely underestimates the interaction of the departments, particularly in a time of crisis.

    Seemed to work well enough for hundreds of years, through several wars and at least one other pandemic.
    I think a study of the UK state response to national crises would probably show that the response to the Covid pandemic is far from an outlier. In simplistic terms - poor start, dodgy middle, strong finish. Generally leaving a longer lasting historical perception that the system worked out pretty well.
    It seems to match the way we have always fought wars as well - at least over the last two centuries.

    1 - Start off woefully unprepared because we are still planning on fighting the same way as last time. Because of course we kind of won.
    2 - Have a few really bad battles where a lot of men get killed unnecessarily because of outdated tactics.
    3 - Learn lessons very very rapidly and bring in senior leadership who not only get the new paradigms but also have the ability to think ahead and create their own innovations
    4 - Finish strongly with a victory that is completely misunderstood as meaning we got everything right and we now are secure with cutting edge strategy and tactics in case of future wars.

    Return to number 1 and do it all over again a couple of decades later.

    Crimea
    Boer War
    WW1
    WW2

    Every time we followed this same pattern.
    Or not so rapidly, in the case of WW1... Churchill moving his way around the Cabinet table?!
    I think you are being very generous about the British Army in WW2.... I am not sure British troops had a particularly strong victory apart from a few local battles... our friends from across the water, the commonwealth or the Urals did nearly all the heavy lifiting....
    From late 1942, the army performed well. The record of the Royal Navy was outstanding from the beginning.
    The crews of HMS Courageous and HMS Glorious might disagree with that slightly superficial analysis.
    With names like those how bad could they have been?
    It was a boom year for shipbuilding the year HMS Average and HMS OK In A Pinch set sail.
    There were several boats named HMS Spiteful, and a fighter, the Supermarine Spiteful. In the unlikely event that the UK ever designs a frontline fighter again, that moniker should definitely be top of the list.
    No HMS White Elephant? For service in SE Asia.
    The next one should be called HMS Irreplaceable and anchored somewhere safe where it won't get scratched.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,047
    edited May 2021

    kle4 said:


    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that completely underestimates the interaction of the departments, particularly in a time of crisis.

    Seemed to work well enough for hundreds of years, through several wars and at least one other pandemic.
    I think a study of the UK state response to national crises would probably show that the response to the Covid pandemic is far from an outlier. In simplistic terms - poor start, dodgy middle, strong finish. Generally leaving a longer lasting historical perception that the system worked out pretty well.
    It seems to match the way we have always fought wars as well - at least over the last two centuries.

    1 - Start off woefully unprepared because we are still planning on fighting the same way as last time. Because of course we kind of won.
    2 - Have a few really bad battles where a lot of men get killed unnecessarily because of outdated tactics.
    3 - Learn lessons very very rapidly and bring in senior leadership who not only get the new paradigms but also have the ability to think ahead and create their own innovations
    4 - Finish strongly with a victory that is completely misunderstood as meaning we got everything right and we now are secure with cutting edge strategy and tactics in case of future wars.

    Return to number 1 and do it all over again a couple of decades later.

    Crimea
    Boer War
    WW1
    WW2

    Every time we followed this same pattern.
    Or not so rapidly, in the case of WW1... Churchill moving his way around the Cabinet table?!
    I think you are being very generous about the British Army in WW2.... I am not sure British troops had a particularly strong victory apart from a few local battles... our friends from across the water, the commonwealth or the Urals did nearly all the heavy lifiting....
    From late 1942, the army performed well. The record of the Royal Navy was outstanding from the beginning.
    The crews of HMS Courageous and HMS Glorious might disagree with that slightly superficial analysis.
    With names like those how bad could they have been?
    It was a boom year for shipbuilding the year HMS Average and HMS OK In A Pinch set sail.
    There were several boats named HMS Spiteful, and a fighter, the Supermarine Spiteful. In the unlikely event that the UK ever designs a frontline fighter again, that moniker should definitely be top of the list.
    No HMS White Elephant? For service in SE Asia.
    The next one should be called HMS Irreplaceable and anchored somewhere safe where it won't get scratched.
    Never mind morality, war should be avoided because it's bloody expensive.

    Especially since we tend to frown on the pillaging thesedays.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,210
    MaxPB said:

    Had an interesting chat with a senior London NHS person last night, he said that the current rate of vaccination, especially first doses, is rate limited by demand in most of the country. They're weighing up whether they should switch up opening hours to prefer evenings and weekends for under 40s who are struggling to get those spots right now while weekday daytime appointments are going unused. He said we have got vaccine availability in London to double first doses but not enough evening appointments to do it.

    As we move down the age groups, enthusiasm does not seem to be the same. I doubt we are going to get to 95% across all the cohorts....
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    The SNP discover the London Underground:
    image

    They've been using those colours since I can remember....

    From a browse about, this livery has been in use since the 1970s?
    1990s. Before that it was unpainted aluminium and before that red. The Underground “roundel” has always been red white and blue since it was adopted in early 20th century. Other colour combinations of the roundel and liveries were and still are used for other forms of transport operated by TfL and its predecessors.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585

    Cookie said:

    Joyous & Civic!

    English tourists - Scotland is closed and doesn't want your money:

    Just what our "beautiful isles" don't need; more Torygraph readers.

    https://twitter.com/ruth_wishart/status/1398913746777612288?s=20

    In all tourist areas there is something of a tension between the need to bring in tourist spend and the understandable irritation that your area is full of tourists. But Scotland does seem to be going further than most in terms of the number and prominence of voices telling tourists that they aren't wanted.
    Especially given that Scotland's current covid rate is double that of England.
    In that case how thoughtful of ‘prominent voices’ not wanting impetuous Torygraph readers to put themselves in harm’s way.

    Perhaps a bit of restrained consideration might be in order if that could be imagined from a Telegraph reader. I’ve cancelled my own N.Uist holiday because I’m in a high Covid area and our booked accommodation for people from 6 households would break the current rules. So far I’ve managed not to collapse into a self pitying paroxysm against the anti Weegieists.
    Its always a good tell when you dip into the 'weegieists' vocabulary.

    Interesting how all the zero covid talk has stopped from Scotland don't you think.
    A tell of what? Do elucidate.
    Nothing more than having touched a nerve.

    Consider current covid levels.

    A bit difficult to get the pompoms out and start singing how Scotland is great and if it isn't its all Westminster's fault.

    Something has gone a little wrong in west-central Scotland and without the Indian variant explanation which Lancashire has.

    Perhaps its nothing more serious than west-central Scotland (and Lancashire for that matter) getting more rain and so more indoors covid spreading in recent weeks.

    But I'm curious to know what it was and so should you be.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,210
    rpjs said:

    The SNP discover the London Underground:
    image

    They've been using those colours since I can remember....

    From a browse about, this livery has been in use since the 1970s?
    1990s. Before that it was unpainted aluminium and before that red. The Underground “roundel” has always been red white and blue since it was adopted in early 20th century. Other colour combinations of the roundel and liveries were and still are used for other forms of transport operated by TfL and its predecessors.
    Really - I visited London as a child and don't remember unpainted aluminium in the 80s??
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585

    The SNP discover the London Underground:
    image

    More Fifth Republic than Third Reich.

    Though people who identify themselves with a flag tend to see other flag motiffs elsewhere. Even where they're not.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950

    Cookie said:

    Joyous & Civic!

    English tourists - Scotland is closed and doesn't want your money:

    Just what our "beautiful isles" don't need; more Torygraph readers.

    https://twitter.com/ruth_wishart/status/1398913746777612288?s=20

    In all tourist areas there is something of a tension between the need to bring in tourist spend and the understandable irritation that your area is full of tourists. But Scotland does seem to be going further than most in terms of the number and prominence of voices telling tourists that they aren't wanted.
    Especially given that Scotland's current covid rate is double that of England.
    In that case how thoughtful of ‘prominent voices’ not wanting impetuous Torygraph readers to put themselves in harm’s way.

    Perhaps a bit of restrained consideration might be in order if that could be imagined from a Telegraph reader. I’ve cancelled my own N.Uist holiday because I’m in a high Covid area and our booked accommodation for people from 6 households would break the current rules. So far I’ve managed not to collapse into a self pitying paroxysm against the anti Weegieists.
    Its always a good tell when you dip into the 'weegieists' vocabulary.

    Interesting how all the zero covid talk has stopped from Scotland don't you think.
    A tell of what? Do elucidate.
    Nothing more than having touched a nerve.

    Consider current covid levels.

    A bit difficult to get the pompoms out and start singing how Scotland is great and if it isn't its all Westminster's fault.

    Something has gone a little wrong in west-central Scotland and without the Indian variant explanation which Lancashire has.

    Perhaps its nothing more serious than west-central Scotland (and Lancashire for that matter) getting more rain and so more indoors covid spreading in recent weeks.

    But I'm curious to know what it was and so should you be.
    Passive aggressive randoms on the internet telling me what I should be curious about has never really worked for me.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950
    Dilyn should be worried


  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,113

    Dilyn should be worried


    Ummm...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397

    rpjs said:

    The SNP discover the London Underground:
    image

    They've been using those colours since I can remember....

    From a browse about, this livery has been in use since the 1970s?
    1990s. Before that it was unpainted aluminium and before that red. The Underground “roundel” has always been red white and blue since it was adopted in early 20th century. Other colour combinations of the roundel and liveries were and still are used for other forms of transport operated by TfL and its predecessors.
    Really - I visited London as a child and don't remember unpainted aluminium in the 80s??
    I lived there in the 80's and that's what I recall.
    Although maybe the different lines were different? The Jubilee line was pretty new and had more modern stock so maybe they were painted?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585

    Cookie said:

    Joyous & Civic!

    English tourists - Scotland is closed and doesn't want your money:

    Just what our "beautiful isles" don't need; more Torygraph readers.

    https://twitter.com/ruth_wishart/status/1398913746777612288?s=20

    In all tourist areas there is something of a tension between the need to bring in tourist spend and the understandable irritation that your area is full of tourists. But Scotland does seem to be going further than most in terms of the number and prominence of voices telling tourists that they aren't wanted.
    Especially given that Scotland's current covid rate is double that of England.
    In that case how thoughtful of ‘prominent voices’ not wanting impetuous Torygraph readers to put themselves in harm’s way.

    Perhaps a bit of restrained consideration might be in order if that could be imagined from a Telegraph reader. I’ve cancelled my own N.Uist holiday because I’m in a high Covid area and our booked accommodation for people from 6 households would break the current rules. So far I’ve managed not to collapse into a self pitying paroxysm against the anti Weegieists.
    Its always a good tell when you dip into the 'weegieists' vocabulary.

    Interesting how all the zero covid talk has stopped from Scotland don't you think.
    A tell of what? Do elucidate.
    Nothing more than having touched a nerve.

    Consider current covid levels.

    A bit difficult to get the pompoms out and start singing how Scotland is great and if it isn't its all Westminster's fault.

    Something has gone a little wrong in west-central Scotland and without the Indian variant explanation which Lancashire has.

    Perhaps its nothing more serious than west-central Scotland (and Lancashire for that matter) getting more rain and so more indoors covid spreading in recent weeks.

    But I'm curious to know what it was and so should you be.
    Passive aggressive randoms on the internet telling me what I should be curious about has never really worked for me.
    So not curious as to why covid rates have risen in Scotland ?

    Fair enough but its you who has cancelled a holiday because of it.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    edited May 2021

    The SNP discover the London Underground:
    image

    They've been using those colours since I can remember....

    From a browse about, this livery has been in use since the 1970s?
    When I first started working in London, in 1980, there were different liveries on different lines, based, it seemed, on age of the rolling stock. The Jubilee line had nice new silver rolling stock, but at least two of the older lines (Bakerloo, Northern) had the very old, all red stock, and the District and Picadilly lines had the unpainted aluminium.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    rpjs said:

    The SNP discover the London Underground:
    image

    They've been using those colours since I can remember....

    From a browse about, this livery has been in use since the 1970s?
    1990s. Before that it was unpainted aluminium and before that red. The Underground “roundel” has always been red white and blue since it was adopted in early 20th century. Other colour combinations of the roundel and liveries were and still are used for other forms of transport operated by TfL and its predecessors.
    Really - I visited London as a child and don't remember unpainted aluminium in the 80s??
    I lived in London and commuted on the tube for a while on Northern line (1980 onwards) - The trains were plain silver as far as I can recall
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,772

    Tres said:

    Oh thank you again Mr Johnson for your marvellous Brexit.

    The UK's biggest builders' merchant has warned customers of "considerable" cost increases to raw materials amid an industry-wide shortage. As first reported by the Times, Travis Perkins says the price of bagged cement will rise by 15%, chipboard by 10% and paint by 5% from Tuesday.
    I

    Brexit must be marvellous if its causing price rises and stock shortages throughout the world.
    Also not unconnected to lockdown and people having to a) spend more time in their house and b) having nothing else to spend d their money on.
    Abandoned who has recently spent any time trying to secure a builder can attest.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,113
    DougSeal said:
    Finally, proof of the Intelligent Design hypothesis.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,785
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Had an interesting chat with a senior London NHS person last night, he said that the current rate of vaccination, especially first doses, is rate limited by demand in most of the country. They're weighing up whether they should switch up opening hours to prefer evenings and weekends for under 40s who are struggling to get those spots right now while weekday daytime appointments are going unused. He said we have got vaccine availability in London to double first doses but not enough evening appointments to do it.

    Why not just follow the US model and: (a) allow anyone to book appointments, as everyone benefits when anyone is jabbed, and (b) allow pharmacies to distribute too, so that there are additional routes to market?
    Yes, I said that too. Just open up to 18+ to get higher capacity utilisation and also switch appointment hours from the current 8am-8pm to 11am to 11pm.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,867
    The more or less weekly INSA poll in Germany:

    CDU/CSU-EPP: 25% (+1)
    GRÜNE-G/EFA: 22% (-1)
    SPD-S&D: 16% (-1)
    FDP-RE: 13%
    AfD-ID: 12%
    LINKE-LEFT: 7% (+1)

    Changes from 17/5-21/5 so all within MoE.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Floater said:

    rpjs said:

    The SNP discover the London Underground:
    image

    They've been using those colours since I can remember....

    From a browse about, this livery has been in use since the 1970s?
    1990s. Before that it was unpainted aluminium and before that red. The Underground “roundel” has always been red white and blue since it was adopted in early 20th century. Other colour combinations of the roundel and liveries were and still are used for other forms of transport operated by TfL and its predecessors.
    Really - I visited London as a child and don't remember unpainted aluminium in the 80s??
    I lived in London and commuted on the tube for a while on Northern line (1980 onwards) - The trains were plain silver as far as I can recall
    Yes. They were introducing the new (current) rolling stock when I moved to London in 1997 ish. The plain silver trains (with a guard) were being replaced with the red, white and blue ones currently in use at that time.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    TimT said:

    The SNP discover the London Underground:
    image

    They've been using those colours since I can remember....

    From a browse about, this livery has been in use since the 1970s?
    When I first started working in London, in 1980, there were different liveries on different lines, based, it seemed, on age of the rolling stock. The Jubilee line had nice new silver rolling stock, but at least two of the older lines (Bakerloo, Northern) had the very old, all red stock, and the District and Picadilly lines had the unpainted aluminium.
    TimT said:

    The SNP discover the London Underground:
    image

    They've been using those colours since I can remember....

    From a browse about, this livery has been in use since the 1970s?
    When I first started working in London, in 1980, there were different liveries on different lines, based, it seemed, on age of the rolling stock. The Jubilee line had nice new silver rolling stock, but at least two of the older lines (Bakerloo, Northern) had the very old, all red stock, and the District and Picadilly lines had the unpainted aluminium.
    And in some cases, mixtures. In the 70s visiting my grandparents whose garden backed onto the Piccadilly, we could gamble based on whether the next train would be red, white or aluminium, and all came by.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,785
    Maffew said:

    Just been vaccinated at London Bridge. Moderna. Feel delighted for it. Hope no side effects hit before the 1 hour cycle to my friend's (he doesn't mind putting me up an extra night if I'm done in).

    Even better, my wife who is a little under 30 came with me with an eye on getting hers at the same time if possible and is being done as I type.

    Great news, my wife got her text yesterday and she's 29. Going to the Islington business centre tomorrow which my friend said was a Moderna centre. He also advised both of us to cancel our current second dose bookings about two weeks after and rebook as it will allow us to rebook with a 6-8 week gap after the first dose rather than 12 weeks. So might be something worth doing as well.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Had an interesting chat with a senior London NHS person last night, he said that the current rate of vaccination, especially first doses, is rate limited by demand in most of the country. They're weighing up whether they should switch up opening hours to prefer evenings and weekends for under 40s who are struggling to get those spots right now while weekday daytime appointments are going unused. He said we have got vaccine availability in London to double first doses but not enough evening appointments to do it.

    Why not just follow the US model and: (a) allow anyone to book appointments, as everyone benefits when anyone is jabbed, and (b) allow pharmacies to distribute too, so that there are additional routes to market?
    Yes, I said that too. Just open up to 18+ to get higher capacity utilisation and also switch appointment hours from the current 8am-8pm to 11am to 11pm.
    The local pharmacies in my small town (more like a village) now offer you the choice of vaccine (J&J, Moderna, or Pfizer) at your walk-up convenience. No lines.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Floater said:

    rpjs said:

    The SNP discover the London Underground:
    image

    They've been using those colours since I can remember....

    From a browse about, this livery has been in use since the 1970s?
    1990s. Before that it was unpainted aluminium and before that red. The Underground “roundel” has always been red white and blue since it was adopted in early 20th century. Other colour combinations of the roundel and liveries were and still are used for other forms of transport operated by TfL and its predecessors.
    Really - I visited London as a child and don't remember unpainted aluminium in the 80s??
    I lived in London and commuted on the tube for a while on Northern line (1980 onwards) - The trains were plain silver as far as I can recall
    That was the unpainted aluminium. IIRC they regularly washed the trains in an acid solution to keep the “shine”. Most NYC Subway trains are similarly unpainted but the latest have a blue and gold “flash” mandated by Gov. Cuomo because the MTA is a state authority.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Had an interesting chat with a senior London NHS person last night, he said that the current rate of vaccination, especially first doses, is rate limited by demand in most of the country. They're weighing up whether they should switch up opening hours to prefer evenings and weekends for under 40s who are struggling to get those spots right now while weekday daytime appointments are going unused. He said we have got vaccine availability in London to double first doses but not enough evening appointments to do it.

    Why not just follow the US model and: (a) allow anyone to book appointments, as everyone benefits when anyone is jabbed, and (b) allow pharmacies to distribute too, so that there are additional routes to market?
    Yep - we must be close to just throwing open the bookings surely?
    As NI did last week
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    edited May 2021
    stodge said:

    The more or less weekly INSA poll in Germany:

    CDU/CSU-EPP: 25% (+1)
    GRÜNE-G/EFA: 22% (-1)
    SPD-S&D: 16% (-1)
    FDP-RE: 13%
    AfD-ID: 12%
    LINKE-LEFT: 7% (+1)

    Changes from 17/5-21/5 so all within MoE.

    The SPD coming 5th at the election can't be ruled out.

    Latest averages:

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundestagswahl_2021/Umfragen_und_Prognosen#Mittelwerte_der_jeweils_aktuellen_Umfrage_aller_Institute
  • MaffewMaffew Posts: 235
    MaxPB said:

    Maffew said:

    Just been vaccinated at London Bridge. Moderna. Feel delighted for it. Hope no side effects hit before the 1 hour cycle to my friend's (he doesn't mind putting me up an extra night if I'm done in).

    Even better, my wife who is a little under 30 came with me with an eye on getting hers at the same time if possible and is being done as I type.

    Great news, my wife got her text yesterday and she's 29. Going to the Islington business centre tomorrow which my friend said was a Moderna centre. He also advised both of us to cancel our current second dose bookings about two weeks after and rebook as it will allow us to rebook with a 6-8 week gap after the first dose rather than 12 weeks. So might be something worth doing as well.
    Funnily enough the Islington Business Centre is where I've got my second dose booked.

    Thanks for the advice on second dose bookings, I'll look to do that.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    Had an interesting chat with a senior London NHS person last night, he said that the current rate of vaccination, especially first doses, is rate limited by demand in most of the country. They're weighing up whether they should switch up opening hours to prefer evenings and weekends for under 40s who are struggling to get those spots right now while weekday daytime appointments are going unused. He said we have got vaccine availability in London to double first doses but not enough evening appointments to do it.

    Mrs Stodge and I received our second vaccinations at Excel on Friday. It wasn't busy - a lot of couples going in to be vaccinated together (how romantic) but capacity certainly not an issue. Indeed, one of the volunteers said the venue was being closed "in the next fortnight" with a new vaccination centre at Stratford.

    This suggests a change in approach as you suggest to a vaccination offering more suited to the "busy young" so more evening and weekend appointments (sorry, hospitality industry, if your key demographic is briefly absent).

    No side effects from a second dose of AZ - here's me thinking it contained a secret chemical additive to make you vote Conservative - so thanks very much Boris, you really are the greatest Prime Minister this country has ever had.

    I think I might go and have a lie down.
    Great news.

    One of the Nightingale hospitals was supposed to be located at the Excel. The NEC was another.

    This is what I don't like about the media. They were talking endlessly about the Nightingale hospitals at one point, but I have no idea what happened to them. They just forget about particular stories.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,785

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Had an interesting chat with a senior London NHS person last night, he said that the current rate of vaccination, especially first doses, is rate limited by demand in most of the country. They're weighing up whether they should switch up opening hours to prefer evenings and weekends for under 40s who are struggling to get those spots right now while weekday daytime appointments are going unused. He said we have got vaccine availability in London to double first doses but not enough evening appointments to do it.

    Why not just follow the US model and: (a) allow anyone to book appointments, as everyone benefits when anyone is jabbed, and (b) allow pharmacies to distribute too, so that there are additional routes to market?
    Yep - we must be close to just throwing open the bookings surely?
    Yeah but PHE and the JVCI seem to be quite rigid on the age group method, but I think what will happen is the group sizes will get bigger and we'll have shorter gaps between opening them up.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    DougSeal said:

    Floater said:

    rpjs said:

    The SNP discover the London Underground:
    image

    They've been using those colours since I can remember....

    From a browse about, this livery has been in use since the 1970s?
    1990s. Before that it was unpainted aluminium and before that red. The Underground “roundel” has always been red white and blue since it was adopted in early 20th century. Other colour combinations of the roundel and liveries were and still are used for other forms of transport operated by TfL and its predecessors.
    Really - I visited London as a child and don't remember unpainted aluminium in the 80s??
    I lived in London and commuted on the tube for a while on Northern line (1980 onwards) - The trains were plain silver as far as I can recall
    Yes. They were introducing the new (current) rolling stock when I moved to London in 1997 ish. The plain silver trains (with a guard) were being replaced with the red, white and blue ones currently in use at that time.
    Some of the older trains acquired the red-white-blue livery on refurbishment from the late 90s. The trains currently on the Piccadilly and Bakerloo lines are from the 70s and started off unpainted (they’re due to to be replaced over the next few years as per the pic that started this thread). The primary reason why LU switched to a painted livery is that it’s easier to remove graffiti from.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,210
    Andy_JS said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    Had an interesting chat with a senior London NHS person last night, he said that the current rate of vaccination, especially first doses, is rate limited by demand in most of the country. They're weighing up whether they should switch up opening hours to prefer evenings and weekends for under 40s who are struggling to get those spots right now while weekday daytime appointments are going unused. He said we have got vaccine availability in London to double first doses but not enough evening appointments to do it.

    Mrs Stodge and I received our second vaccinations at Excel on Friday. It wasn't busy - a lot of couples going in to be vaccinated together (how romantic) but capacity certainly not an issue. Indeed, one of the volunteers said the venue was being closed "in the next fortnight" with a new vaccination centre at Stratford.

    This suggests a change in approach as you suggest to a vaccination offering more suited to the "busy young" so more evening and weekend appointments (sorry, hospitality industry, if your key demographic is briefly absent).

    No side effects from a second dose of AZ - here's me thinking it contained a secret chemical additive to make you vote Conservative - so thanks very much Boris, you really are the greatest Prime Minister this country has ever had.

    I think I might go and have a lie down.
    Great news.

    One of the Nightingale hospitals was supposed to be located at the Excel. The NEC was another.

    This is what I don't like about the media. They were talking endlessly about the Nightingale hospitals at one point, but I have no idea what happened to them. They just forget about particular stories.
    They weren't needed, fortunately.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:
    Finally, proof of the Intelligent Design hypothesis.

    Robert, I did not see your question to me yesterday until too late, on the origins issue.

    On the initial data, I thought the natural origins via the wet market was most likely. Since then, earlier origins are clear, so that I have discounted.

    Based on current evidence, each of the following are plausible, but we are simply ignorant as to which of them it is, which means we cannot ascribe likelihoods and hence ordered ratings of likelihoods: natural origin, accidental release of the natural virus from storage in WVI, or accidental release of an accidentally evolved virus through passage of a non-human virus through human cell lines.

    I still believe the scientists (and here we have to focus on not just virologist, but respiratory disease virologists, and coronavirus virologists in particular) I have known for years on the issue of natural vs man-made. In that context, I would consider accidentally lab-evolved to be natural, AND deliberately evolved virus through directed evolution in the lab. But for other numerous reasons, I do not believe directed evolution is what we are looking at here.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,001
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    But did they create the chicken or the egg first?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,785

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Had an interesting chat with a senior London NHS person last night, he said that the current rate of vaccination, especially first doses, is rate limited by demand in most of the country. They're weighing up whether they should switch up opening hours to prefer evenings and weekends for under 40s who are struggling to get those spots right now while weekday daytime appointments are going unused. He said we have got vaccine availability in London to double first doses but not enough evening appointments to do it.

    Why not just follow the US model and: (a) allow anyone to book appointments, as everyone benefits when anyone is jabbed, and (b) allow pharmacies to distribute too, so that there are additional routes to market?
    Yep - we must be close to just throwing open the bookings surely?
    Yeah but PHE and the JVCI seem to be quite rigid on the age group method, but I think what will happen is the group sizes will get bigger and we'll have shorter gaps between opening them up.
    Rigidly sticking to the age group method was right when the alternative was slowing things down with a plethora of granular prioritisation rules, but wrong when the alternative is speeding things up.
    Agreed, as I said, I advised my friend that opening up to all 18+ and changing opening hours to 11am-11pm would be really useful for bringing capacity utilisation up again as it was with 50+ groups.
  • Spent the early part of today at a mahoosive car boot sale in the north west. Maybe 15-20% with masks on and most of them with the masks under the chin.
    Perhaps a small sign of the kicking the govt will get if we don’t open up on the 21st.

    Sold loads of stuff and had very nice chats with lots of nice people.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,812
    edited May 2021

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Had an interesting chat with a senior London NHS person last night, he said that the current rate of vaccination, especially first doses, is rate limited by demand in most of the country. They're weighing up whether they should switch up opening hours to prefer evenings and weekends for under 40s who are struggling to get those spots right now while weekday daytime appointments are going unused. He said we have got vaccine availability in London to double first doses but not enough evening appointments to do it.

    Why not just follow the US model and: (a) allow anyone to book appointments, as everyone benefits when anyone is jabbed, and (b) allow pharmacies to distribute too, so that there are additional routes to market?
    Yep - we must be close to just throwing open the bookings surely?
    Yeah but PHE and the JVCI seem to be quite rigid on the age group method, but I think what will happen is the group sizes will get bigger and we'll have shorter gaps between opening them up.
    Rigidly sticking to the age group method was right when the alternative was slowing things down with a plethora of granular prioritisation rules, but wrong when the alternative is speeding things up.
    The Scots seem to be doing both - really targeting the 30 somethings now but opening up to the youngsters by engouraging them to register. The latter are more mobile/less likely to have an accurate/up to date GP registration etc.

    Edit: don't know about opening hours however.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,867

    Andy_JS said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    Had an interesting chat with a senior London NHS person last night, he said that the current rate of vaccination, especially first doses, is rate limited by demand in most of the country. They're weighing up whether they should switch up opening hours to prefer evenings and weekends for under 40s who are struggling to get those spots right now while weekday daytime appointments are going unused. He said we have got vaccine availability in London to double first doses but not enough evening appointments to do it.

    Mrs Stodge and I received our second vaccinations at Excel on Friday. It wasn't busy - a lot of couples going in to be vaccinated together (how romantic) but capacity certainly not an issue. Indeed, one of the volunteers said the venue was being closed "in the next fortnight" with a new vaccination centre at Stratford.

    This suggests a change in approach as you suggest to a vaccination offering more suited to the "busy young" so more evening and weekend appointments (sorry, hospitality industry, if your key demographic is briefly absent).

    No side effects from a second dose of AZ - here's me thinking it contained a secret chemical additive to make you vote Conservative - so thanks very much Boris, you really are the greatest Prime Minister this country has ever had.

    I think I might go and have a lie down.
    Great news.

    One of the Nightingale hospitals was supposed to be located at the Excel. The NEC was another.

    This is what I don't like about the media. They were talking endlessly about the Nightingale hospitals at one point, but I have no idea what happened to them. They just forget about particular stories.
    They weren't needed, fortunately.
    All the hospital infrastructure is long gone but those vast exhibition halls sitting unused were perfect for the mass vaccinations.

    The capacity of such spaces could be considerable but on the two occasions I visited, a lot of it wasn't being used.

    I hope someone is checking where all the vaccinations have been administered and how they have been booked - I booked both appointments as soon as the NHS website opened to my age in March and it was an 11-week gap between vaccinations.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,344
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    I think that completely underestimates the interaction of the departments, particularly in a time of crisis.

    Seemed to work well enough for hundreds of years, through several wars and at least one other pandemic.
    I think a study of the UK state response to national crises would probably show that the response to the Covid pandemic is far from an outlier. In simplistic terms - poor start, dodgy middle, strong finish. Generally leaving a longer lasting historical perception that the system worked out pretty well.
    It seems to match the way we have always fought wars as well - at least over the last two centuries.

    1 - Start off woefully unprepared because we are still planning on fighting the same way as last time. Because of course we kind of won.
    2 - Have a few really bad battles where a lot of men get killed unnecessarily because of outdated tactics.
    3 - Learn lessons very very rapidly and bring in senior leadership who not only get the new paradigms but also have the ability to think ahead and create their own innovations
    4 - Finish strongly with a victory that is completely misunderstood as meaning we got everything right and we now are secure with cutting edge strategy and tactics in case of future wars.

    Return to number 1 and do it all over again a couple of decades later.

    Crimea
    Boer War
    WW1
    WW2

    Every time we followed this same pattern.
    Or not so rapidly, in the case of WW1... Churchill moving his way around the Cabinet table?!
    I think you are being very generous about the British Army in WW2.... I am not sure British troops had a particularly strong victory apart from a few local battles... our friends from across the water, the commonwealth or the Urals did nearly all the heavy lifiting....
    The main British contribution to WW2 was not losing. But quite an important one.
    There is the story that in 1945, the Soviets interrogated the top Wehrmacht general, von Rundstedt, and asked which was the most crucial battle of the war, expecting him to say Stalingrad or some such. He told them, the Battle of Britain.

    As you say, Britain fighting on was key to the war. America was still neutral, and Germany would not have been fighting a two- or three-front war so could turn all its might against the Soviet Union, which might have been compelled to make peace and cede the Ukraine.
    I don’t think Russia could have lost outright, after winning the Battle of Moscow, but as you say, the Germans might well have secured an advantageous peace in the East.
    Could the Russians even have won the Battle of Moscow without the Arctic convoys from Britain and America, and if it had faced the entire German armed forces?
    Yes.

    But actually, the key battle wasn’t Moscow, or even Leningrad. It was Stalingrad, and there was no realistic way the Germans could win that even if they had captured the city. I seem to remember a figure of 300km of defensive works on the east bank of the Volga. Imagine trying to fight through defensive positions that stretched from London to York against an enemy with comparable tech, a 3-1 edge in numbers and an indifference to the numbers of casualties.
    Wasn't the initial reason for taking Stalingrad to be able to block the Volga as a transport route and form a defensive position on the west bank ?
    The reason for taking Stalingrad was it would have opened the way to the oilfields of the Caucasus, which Germany desperately needed to control to get oil. Bearing in mind the other major sources of oil at the time were the Middle East (in effect controlled by the British) and the United States (which was controlled by, amazingly, the United States).

    But the route to them had been blocked.
    The Germans did take some oilfields, but they did not have technicians to get the oil flowing again, after the Soviets sabotaged them. This was typical of Nazi economic “thinking.”
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,344
    In general, I think Barbarossa was hare-brained, and the High Command bear as much responsibility as Hitler. Red Army capabilities were grossly underestimated, Russian weather conditions were hand-waved, and logistical issues ignored. One can’t overstate the importance of logistics.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    The SNP discover the London Underground:
    image

    it runs on time??
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,210
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    Had an interesting chat with a senior London NHS person last night, he said that the current rate of vaccination, especially first doses, is rate limited by demand in most of the country. They're weighing up whether they should switch up opening hours to prefer evenings and weekends for under 40s who are struggling to get those spots right now while weekday daytime appointments are going unused. He said we have got vaccine availability in London to double first doses but not enough evening appointments to do it.

    Mrs Stodge and I received our second vaccinations at Excel on Friday. It wasn't busy - a lot of couples going in to be vaccinated together (how romantic) but capacity certainly not an issue. Indeed, one of the volunteers said the venue was being closed "in the next fortnight" with a new vaccination centre at Stratford.

    This suggests a change in approach as you suggest to a vaccination offering more suited to the "busy young" so more evening and weekend appointments (sorry, hospitality industry, if your key demographic is briefly absent).

    No side effects from a second dose of AZ - here's me thinking it contained a secret chemical additive to make you vote Conservative - so thanks very much Boris, you really are the greatest Prime Minister this country has ever had.

    I think I might go and have a lie down.
    Great news.

    One of the Nightingale hospitals was supposed to be located at the Excel. The NEC was another.

    This is what I don't like about the media. They were talking endlessly about the Nightingale hospitals at one point, but I have no idea what happened to them. They just forget about particular stories.
    They weren't needed, fortunately.
    All the hospital infrastructure is long gone but those vast exhibition halls sitting unused were perfect for the mass vaccinations.

    The capacity of such spaces could be considerable but on the two occasions I visited, a lot of it wasn't being used.

    I hope someone is checking where all the vaccinations have been administered and how they have been booked - I booked both appointments as soon as the NHS website opened to my age in March and it was an 11-week gap between vaccinations.
    Most of the vaccinations have been delivered at smaller, more local sites.
  • Tres said:

    Oh thank you again Mr Johnson for your marvellous Brexit.

    The UK's biggest builders' merchant has warned customers of "considerable" cost increases to raw materials amid an industry-wide shortage. As first reported by the Times, Travis Perkins says the price of bagged cement will rise by 15%, chipboard by 10% and paint by 5% from Tuesday.
    I

    Same thing is happening in Europe because, gasp, high demand and limited supply is a global problem and is hitting many industries right now. Builders should be glad they're not in the electronics business; a bunch of parts we depend on are simply not available at any price, and others have seen price rises exceeding 50x.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,119
    edited May 2021
    ..
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,210
    Sean_F said:

    In general, I think Barbarossa was hare-brained, and the High Command bear as much responsibility as Hitler. Red Army capabilities were grossly underestimated, Russian weather conditions were hand-waved, and logistical issues ignored. One can’t overstate the importance of logistics.

    Lots of "something will turn up". The logistics experts in the German High Command mathematically proved what was going to happen - the response was "live off the land". Which helped kick off the Wehrmacht record of war crimes in the East, with looting, murder etc....
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,867



    Most of the vaccinations have been delivered at smaller, more local sites.

    I was happy to go a relatively short distance and the catchment for Excel within East London is considerbale.

    As you say, and with particular relevance for the elderly, getting the vaccinations as close to where people lived was always going to be the most effective.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,344
    edited May 2021

    Sean_F said:

    In general, I think Barbarossa was hare-brained, and the High Command bear as much responsibility as Hitler. Red Army capabilities were grossly underestimated, Russian weather conditions were hand-waved, and logistical issues ignored. One can’t overstate the importance of logistics.

    Lots of "something will turn up". The logistics experts in the German High Command mathematically proved what was going to happen - the response was "live off the land". Which helped kick off the Wehrmacht record of war crimes in the East, with looting, murder etc....
    For a long time after the war, NATO indulged self-serving arguments from ex-Wehrmacht generals that they’d have beaten the Soviets if it wasn’t for that idiot Hitler. Alan Clark was probably the first historian to skewer those arguments.

    It was pretty unusual for an anti-communist historian to give high praise to the Red Army in the 1960’s.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    Sean_F said:

    In general, I think Barbarossa was hare-brained, and the High Command bear as much responsibility as Hitler. Red Army capabilities were grossly underestimated, Russian weather conditions were hand-waved, and logistical issues ignored. One can’t overstate the importance of logistics.

    Isn't there a saying that amateurs study strategy while professionals study logistics?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    Sean_F said:

    In general, I think Barbarossa was hare-brained, and the High Command bear as much responsibility as Hitler. Red Army capabilities were grossly underestimated, Russian weather conditions were hand-waved, and logistical issues ignored. One can’t overstate the importance of logistics.

    I've read they believed that western Russia had a similar road network to western Europe.

    Whereas they believed that minor roads in Britain were nothing more than dirt-tracks.

    The German high command seemed to have been surprisingly ignorant of many things.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285

    Sean_F said:

    In general, I think Barbarossa was hare-brained, and the High Command bear as much responsibility as Hitler. Red Army capabilities were grossly underestimated, Russian weather conditions were hand-waved, and logistical issues ignored. One can’t overstate the importance of logistics.

    Lots of "something will turn up". The logistics experts in the German High Command mathematically proved what was going to happen - the response was "live off the land". Which helped kick off the Wehrmacht record of war crimes in the East, with looting, murder etc....
    To be fair, it worked for Sherman. On the other hand, that Georgia probably had a lot more food than the one the Germans were going for...
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Sean_F said:

    In general, I think Barbarossa was hare-brained, and the High Command bear as much responsibility as Hitler. Red Army capabilities were grossly underestimated, Russian weather conditions were hand-waved, and logistical issues ignored. One can’t overstate the importance of logistics.

    Lots of "something will turn up". The logistics experts in the German High Command mathematically proved what was going to happen - the response was "live off the land". Which helped kick off the Wehrmacht record of war crimes in the East, with looting, murder etc....
    To be fair, it worked for Sherman. On the other hand, that Georgia probably had a lot more food than the one the Germans were going for...
    But Sherman would undoubtedly be guilty of war crimes if he were operating under todays International Humanitarian Law.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,344
    edited May 2021
    TimT said:

    Sean_F said:

    In general, I think Barbarossa was hare-brained, and the High Command bear as much responsibility as Hitler. Red Army capabilities were grossly underestimated, Russian weather conditions were hand-waved, and logistical issues ignored. One can’t overstate the importance of logistics.

    Lots of "something will turn up". The logistics experts in the German High Command mathematically proved what was going to happen - the response was "live off the land". Which helped kick off the Wehrmacht record of war crimes in the East, with looting, murder etc....
    To be fair, it worked for Sherman. On the other hand, that Georgia probably had a lot more food than the one the Germans were going for...
    But Sherman would undoubtedly be guilty of war crimes if he were operating under todays International Humanitarian Law.
    Almost every commander in history is guilty of war crimes, by today’s standards, and we’d commit war crimes too, if it was really necessary.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    TimT said:

    Sean_F said:

    In general, I think Barbarossa was hare-brained, and the High Command bear as much responsibility as Hitler. Red Army capabilities were grossly underestimated, Russian weather conditions were hand-waved, and logistical issues ignored. One can’t overstate the importance of logistics.

    Lots of "something will turn up". The logistics experts in the German High Command mathematically proved what was going to happen - the response was "live off the land". Which helped kick off the Wehrmacht record of war crimes in the East, with looting, murder etc....
    To be fair, it worked for Sherman. On the other hand, that Georgia probably had a lot more food than the one the Germans were going for...
    But Sherman would undoubtedly be guilty of war crimes if he were operating under todays International Humanitarian Law.
    But it wasn't an international war.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,344

    Sean_F said:

    In general, I think Barbarossa was hare-brained, and the High Command bear as much responsibility as Hitler. Red Army capabilities were grossly underestimated, Russian weather conditions were hand-waved, and logistical issues ignored. One can’t overstate the importance of logistics.

    I've read they believed that western Russia had a similar road network to western Europe.

    Whereas they believed that minor roads in Britain were nothing more than dirt-tracks.

    The German high command seemed to have been surprisingly ignorant of many things.
    They also didn’t realise that Russia had different railway gauges to their own.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,344

    Sean_F said:

    In general, I think Barbarossa was hare-brained, and the High Command bear as much responsibility as Hitler. Red Army capabilities were grossly underestimated, Russian weather conditions were hand-waved, and logistical issues ignored. One can’t overstate the importance of logistics.

    Isn't there a saying that amateurs study strategy while professionals study logistics?
    Very much so. The side that gets the logistics right will almost always prevail over the side that does not.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541

    Spent the early part of today at a mahoosive car boot sale in the north west. Maybe 15-20% with masks on and most of them with the masks under the chin.
    Perhaps a small sign of the kicking the govt will get if we don’t open up on the 21st.

    Sold loads of stuff and had very nice chats with lots of nice people.

    One thing I don't understand is people who wear masks but not properly.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392

    Spent the early part of today at a mahoosive car boot sale in the north west. Maybe 15-20% with masks on and most of them with the masks under the chin.
    Perhaps a small sign of the kicking the govt will get if we don’t open up on the 21st.

    Sold loads of stuff and had very nice chats with lots of nice people.

    Been to a massive flea market in Shepton mallet today. Estimate <5 % wearing masks. All outside of course, and very little COVID in the area. Felt very very normal, including the huge traffic jam to get in...
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    TimT said:

    Sean_F said:

    In general, I think Barbarossa was hare-brained, and the High Command bear as much responsibility as Hitler. Red Army capabilities were grossly underestimated, Russian weather conditions were hand-waved, and logistical issues ignored. One can’t overstate the importance of logistics.

    Lots of "something will turn up". The logistics experts in the German High Command mathematically proved what was going to happen - the response was "live off the land". Which helped kick off the Wehrmacht record of war crimes in the East, with looting, murder etc....
    To be fair, it worked for Sherman. On the other hand, that Georgia probably had a lot more food than the one the Germans were going for...
    But Sherman would undoubtedly be guilty of war crimes if he were operating under todays International Humanitarian Law.
    But it wasn't an international war.
    The Additional Protocols to the Geneva Conventions cover that sort of war.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    Is this train British enough for everyone...

    https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8451/7929498654_c288cd88f6_b.jpg
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,414
    edited May 2021

    TimT said:

    Sean_F said:

    In general, I think Barbarossa was hare-brained, and the High Command bear as much responsibility as Hitler. Red Army capabilities were grossly underestimated, Russian weather conditions were hand-waved, and logistical issues ignored. One can’t overstate the importance of logistics.

    Lots of "something will turn up". The logistics experts in the German High Command mathematically proved what was going to happen - the response was "live off the land". Which helped kick off the Wehrmacht record of war crimes in the East, with looting, murder etc....
    To be fair, it worked for Sherman. On the other hand, that Georgia probably had a lot more food than the one the Germans were going for...
    But Sherman would undoubtedly be guilty of war crimes if he were operating under todays International Humanitarian Law.
    But it wasn't an international war.
    You could probably still find people in Georgia, the Carolinas etc who would assert that it was.

    And afternoon all. Just had a pleasant couple of hours watching the local cricket team. The club bar was open too.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    TimT said:

    TimT said:

    Sean_F said:

    In general, I think Barbarossa was hare-brained, and the High Command bear as much responsibility as Hitler. Red Army capabilities were grossly underestimated, Russian weather conditions were hand-waved, and logistical issues ignored. One can’t overstate the importance of logistics.

    Lots of "something will turn up". The logistics experts in the German High Command mathematically proved what was going to happen - the response was "live off the land". Which helped kick off the Wehrmacht record of war crimes in the East, with looting, murder etc....
    To be fair, it worked for Sherman. On the other hand, that Georgia probably had a lot more food than the one the Germans were going for...
    But Sherman would undoubtedly be guilty of war crimes if he were operating under todays International Humanitarian Law.
    But it wasn't an international war.
    The Additional Protocols to the Geneva Conventions cover that sort of war.
    Sherman was destroying the ability of the enemy to wage war. Very similar in some ways to the RAF's bombing campaign over Germany, but with fewer casualties.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,402
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    In general, I think Barbarossa was hare-brained, and the High Command bear as much responsibility as Hitler. Red Army capabilities were grossly underestimated, Russian weather conditions were hand-waved, and logistical issues ignored. One can’t overstate the importance of logistics.

    Isn't there a saying that amateurs study strategy while professionals study logistics?
    Very much so. The side that gets the logistics right will almost always prevail over the side that does not.
    That applies to civilian professional life as well.

    It's one reason the army is good at assisting the civil power in emergencies and, indeed, it's essential to success in major infrastructure projects as well.
This discussion has been closed.