Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

The Boris vaccination poll “bounce” will evaporate unless those who’ve had both jabs start to see so

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited May 2021 in General
imageThe Boris vaccination poll “bounce” will evaporate unless those who’ve had both jabs start to see some benefit – politicalbetting.com

Undoubtedly the government’s vaccination progress has been a great success and clearly has had a big impact on curbing the spread of COVID amongst the most vulnerable. All the signs are that the vaccines pretty are robust with the new variants as Johnson was boasting about at PMQs on Wednesday. On top of that the real-life efficacy of AZC jab has proved to be far in excess of that achieved in the early trials.

Read the full story here

«13456

Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    First.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    edited May 2021
    Covid anecdote of the day. A friends car conked out, and she needed to call out the RAC. Chatting to the chap, he revealed that earlier that day he had been called out, and that motorist had just got back from India, but hadn't isolated as he had flown back via Turkey. Quite brazen about it too, as if he had got one over on the system.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    Yes, the boomers will whine like spoiled children, thinking only of themselves and not the young. Again. And yes, it may have an effect.

    Given age groupings to get to “fully vaccinated”, the family of 4 quoted by Telegraph will be two retired parents and their retired children. Slightly misleading but the key Telegraph demographic I guess.

    Or the children work in health or social care or have significant underlying conditions.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Foxy said:

    Covid anecdote of the day. A friends car conked out, and she needed to call out the RAC. Chatting to the chap, he revealed that earlier that day he had been called out, and that motorist had just got back from India, but hadn't isolated as he had flown back via Turkey. Quite brazen about it too, as if he had got one over on the system.

    That would be the red listed Turkey.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,962
    Foxy said:

    Covid anecdote of the day. A friends car conked out, and she needed to call out the RAC. Chatting to the chap, he revealed that earlier that day he had been called out, and that motorist had just got back from India, but hadn't isolated as he had flown back via Turkey. Quite brazen about it too, as if he had got one over on the system.

    That will be the same Turkey that is also on the Red List?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    Covid anecdote of the day. A friends car conked out, and she needed to call out the RAC. Chatting to the chap, he revealed that earlier that day he had been called out, and that motorist had just got back from India, but hadn't isolated as he had flown back via Turkey. Quite brazen about it too, as if he had got one over on the system.

    That would be the red listed Turkey.
    Turkey was only red listed on 17 May.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: Leclerc now shorter than Bottas and Perez for pole. However, if, like Mr. B, I'd backed him at significantly longer odds I think I'd be tempted to hold on. Sainz potential value as well.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    The traffic light system does not appear to be achieving what we need it to do. What steps could the government take? Quite frankly I do not understand why there are so many flights.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    Jonathan said:

    The traffic light system does not appear to be achieving what we need it to do. What steps could the government take? Quite frankly I do not understand why there are so many flights.

    I think the problems are that red and other countries mix in the airports, travellers from red countries can fly indirectly and that there is no real enforcement of self quarantine.

    It's the Isle of Wight for me as usual this summer.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    edited May 2021
    F1: well, that's annoying. I wrote up first and second practice results, so at leats it wasn't too time-consuming, but my document didn't save it, even though I'm near certain I did save it and no warning came up when I closed it.

    Humbug!

    Edited extra bit: ah ha! I sleepily saved it to a separate document. Which means my computer is not broken. Although I may need some more rest.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    Good morning from a cloudy Essex. Hoping to be able to watch play at our local cricket club this afternoon, though. Ground drains well, and no rain is forecast.

    If rules on socialising holidays are not relaxed as expected, I doubt whether there will be a 'severe' backlash. Among those I mix with anyway; I suspect the reaction will be 'he's done his best, it's those others.'
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    Yes, the boomers will whine like spoiled children, thinking only of themselves and not the young. Again. And yes, it may have an effect.

    Given age groupings to get to “fully vaccinated”, the family of 4 quoted by Telegraph will be two retired parents and their retired children. Slightly misleading but the key Telegraph demographic I guess.

    A tad on the young side for the Telegraph, I’m thinking. Do any of their readers have live parents?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    Good morning from a cloudy Essex. Hoping to be able to watch play at our local cricket club this afternoon, though. Ground drains well, and no rain is forecast.

    If rules on socialising holidays are not relaxed as expected, I doubt whether there will be a 'severe' backlash. Among those I mix with anyway; I suspect the reaction will be 'he's done his best, it's those others.'

    Very grey and moody here. But I have my first adventure - a weekend on North Island, the first time on the ferry since September, taking in friends and family and a hotel in rural Kent overnight. Very excited....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    So let me get this straight - we locked down the entire country for 16 months, disproportionately hurting the young despite the fact that this virus didn't hurt the young, in order to protect the old.

    But now the old are vaccinated they want to be able to jet off overseas while leaving the young behind still locked down because they didn't need the vaccine yet?

    Is that right?

    If you were saying you wanted to eg get out of lockdown and hug your grandchildren then I'd have some sympathy and agree 100000%, but to go overseas while saying that those who've sacrificed so much to keep you safe are left behind?

    I think there would be mileage in this story if we had widespread vaccine hesitancy, as a carrot for people to get the jab. But we don’t. So keeping travel restrictions in place for everyone for the moment is simpler, fairer and safer.

    It’s much more urgent to lift the remaining domestic restrictions. The remaining restraints in schools that are causing total chaos. The universities. The bizarrre decision by that twat Dowden to attempt to tighten the rules on music the other day. The remaining closed sectors of hospitality.

    Once they are all gone, foreign travel should be the last to come back. I hate to agree with Drakeford, but his advice to holiday in Wales this year was sound.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    edited May 2021

    So let me get this straight - we locked down the entire country for 16 months, disproportionately hurting the young despite the fact that this virus didn't hurt the young, in order to protect the old.

    But now the old are vaccinated they want to be able to jet off overseas while leaving the young behind still locked down because they didn't need the vaccine yet?

    Is that right?

    If you were saying you wanted to eg get out of lockdown and hug your grandchildren then I'd have some sympathy and agree 100000%, but to go overseas while saying that those who've sacrificed so much to keep you safe are left behind?

    We want to go and see those of our family, including grandchildren, who live abroad. But we want it to be safe to do so, and my wife especially doesn't want to spend several hours on a plane in a mask.

    We have a week booked on the Northumberland coast later this year. We're hoping for a fine Autumn, given we've not really had a Spring-like SpringQ
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288
    On thread. They might actually be very grateful to the Govt for creating herd immunity amongst its people. Given that most were supported financially by the Govt. I would have thought that gratefulness might last a bit longer than suggested. The only fly as I see it is a third lockdown and no holidays.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,962
    edited May 2021

    Good morning from a cloudy Essex. Hoping to be able to watch play at our local cricket club this afternoon, though. Ground drains well, and no rain is forecast.

    If rules on socialising holidays are not relaxed as expected, I doubt whether there will be a 'severe' backlash. Among those I mix with anyway; I suspect the reaction will be 'he's done his best, it's those others.'

    Grey, cloudy, damp in Devon - but at least the storm-force wind has abated.

    The garden looks a hell of a mess though. Twigs, branches and leaf debris everywhere.

    I may have to pay a man from the village a few shillings to do something about it...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    So let me get this straight - we locked down the entire country for 16 months, disproportionately hurting the young despite the fact that this virus didn't hurt the young, in order to protect the old.

    But now the old are vaccinated they want to be able to jet off overseas while leaving the young behind still locked down because they didn't need the vaccine yet?

    Is that right?

    If you were saying you wanted to eg get out of lockdown and hug your grandchildren then I'd have some sympathy and agree 100000%, but to go overseas while saying that those who've sacrificed so much to keep you safe are left behind?

    Yes, that's the counter-argument.

    Nevertheless the current situation - where the government is pretending foreign travel has been unlocked whilst in practice keeping it impossible for the vast majority of people to the vast majority of locations, with only those with a lot of time and money able to circumnavigate the regulations, is the worst of all worlds.

    Either allow us to travel, or don't - stop pretending that the current situation is of much help to anyone.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    Good morning from a cloudy Essex. Hoping to be able to watch play at our local cricket club this afternoon, though. Ground drains well, and no rain is forecast.

    If rules on socialising holidays are not relaxed as expected, I doubt whether there will be a 'severe' backlash. Among those I mix with anyway; I suspect the reaction will be 'he's done his best, it's those others.'

    Grey, cloudy, damp in Devon - but at least the storm-force wind has abated.

    The garden looks a hell of a mess though. Twigs, branches and leaf debris everywhere.

    I may have to pay a man from the village a few shillings to do something about it...
    Edward Lear applies:
    "It is the duty of the wealthy man
    To give employment to the artisan."
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    "nonsense over the amber list"?

    Green - you can go there

    Red - you can't go there

    Amber - well, you CAN go - but I wouldn't if I were you and don't come crying to us if your holibobs go tits up....

    It's about the return of taking personal responsibility.

    As much as the media wants to say "its so confusing" about being able to go to an amber country, but it not being recommended to do so - almost everyone surely understands instinctively that is what amber means.

    Red: Stop, Green: Go, Amber: You can go, but stop if its safe to do so and it could turn red.

    Even my four year old knows what the traffic light colours mean as she'll say what they mean from her booster seat whenever we reach the traffic lights!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited May 2021

    "nonsense over the amber list"?

    Green - you can go there

    Red - you can't go there

    Amber - well, you CAN go - but I wouldn't if I were you and don't come crying to us if your holibobs go tits up....

    It's about the return of taking personal responsibility.

    As much as the media wants to say "its so confusing" about being able to go to an amber country, but it not being recommended to do so - almost everyone surely understands instinctively that is what amber means.

    Red: Stop, Green: Go, Amber: You can go, but stop if its safe to do so and it could turn red.

    Even my four year old knows what the traffic light colours mean as she'll say what they mean from her booster seat whenever we reach the traffic lights!
    It’s basically the system the FO have used for travel advice for 40 years, tweaked for the pandemic.

    That said, I would have made all countries amber right now. Although vaccines mean there shouldn’t be a repeat of last summer where virus seeded from abroad scythed through reopened schools and unis, I would like to see most countries at our level of jabbing before flights resume.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    Good morning from a cloudy Essex. Hoping to be able to watch play at our local cricket club this afternoon, though. Ground drains well, and no rain is forecast.

    If rules on socialising holidays are not relaxed as expected, I doubt whether there will be a 'severe' backlash. Among those I mix with anyway; I suspect the reaction will be 'he's done his best, it's those others.'

    Grey, cloudy, damp in Devon - but at least the storm-force wind has abated.

    The garden looks a hell of a mess though. Twigs, branches and leaf debris everywhere.

    I may have to pay a man from the village a few shillings to do something about it...
    Edward Lear applies:
    "It is the duty of the wealthy man
    To give employment to the artisan."
    Hilare Belloc though wasn't it?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    ydoethur said:

    "nonsense over the amber list"?

    Green - you can go there

    Red - you can't go there

    Amber - well, you CAN go - but I wouldn't if I were you and don't come crying to us if your holibobs go tits up....

    It's about the return of taking personal responsibility.

    As much as the media wants to say "its so confusing" about being able to go to an amber country, but it not being recommended to do so - almost everyone surely understands instinctively that is what amber means.

    Red: Stop, Green: Go, Amber: You can go, but stop if its safe to do so and it could turn red.

    Even my four year old knows what the traffic light colours mean as she'll say what they mean from her booster seat whenever we reach the traffic lights!
    It’s basically the system the FO have used for travel advice for 40 years, tweaked for the pandemic.

    That said, I would have made all countries amber right now. Although vaccines mean there shouldn’t be a repeat of last summer where virus seeded from abroad scythed through reopened schools and unis, I would like to see most countries at our level of jabbing before flights resume.
    That's essentially what they did.

    Every country is amber by default, but then moved to green if the situation is good like ours, or red if especially bad.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    Some benefits? Well, I've noticed I'm still alive. The BBC is reporting that 32 and 33 year olds are being invited. My 26 year old has been called in here, where we appear to be working ahead of the game.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    ydoethur said:

    "nonsense over the amber list"?

    Green - you can go there

    Red - you can't go there

    Amber - well, you CAN go - but I wouldn't if I were you and don't come crying to us if your holibobs go tits up....

    It's about the return of taking personal responsibility.

    As much as the media wants to say "its so confusing" about being able to go to an amber country, but it not being recommended to do so - almost everyone surely understands instinctively that is what amber means.

    Red: Stop, Green: Go, Amber: You can go, but stop if its safe to do so and it could turn red.

    Even my four year old knows what the traffic light colours mean as she'll say what they mean from her booster seat whenever we reach the traffic lights!
    It’s basically the system the FO have used for travel advice for 40 years, tweaked for the pandemic.

    That said, I would have made all countries amber right now. Although vaccines mean there shouldn’t be a repeat of last summer where virus seeded from abroad scythed through reopened schools and unis, I would like to see most countries at our level of jabbing before flights resume.
    I am booked for Madeira in December, on a 10% deposit, which I did while in the red category, now it is green. Things change quickly. It was quite a bargain when I booked, less so now.

    From the 5Live phone in the other day, it does seem as if many holidays were carried forward a year, and the companies are saying to people to go, or to lose it.

    Compared to last year's weather Britain is not a great place to be holidaying at present. It reminds me of the soggy spring of the London Olympics. Remember the waterlogged Jubilee flotilla on the Thames that year?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Good morning from a cloudy Essex. Hoping to be able to watch play at our local cricket club this afternoon, though. Ground drains well, and no rain is forecast.

    If rules on socialising holidays are not relaxed as expected, I doubt whether there will be a 'severe' backlash. Among those I mix with anyway; I suspect the reaction will be 'he's done his best, it's those others.'

    It would be best to dispense with the ambiguity and simply tell people not to go - until the EU at least has caught up with our vaccination program, and we've had a chance to work our way through the young - and then open up to travel with the neighbours properly, without this dreadful rigmarole of testing, testing, testing, testing, more bloody testing, and house arrest.

    Public patience probably will hold, for the most part, although it would help no end if I was proven wrong in my dread suspicion that the entire Summer in Britain is going to be a total washout this year. We are now nearly at the end of May, and the weather is still stuck in March. Nor do I trust the "jam tomorrow" forecasts, that suggest things will be much less shit in a week. They've been issuing those since about Easter, but every time one rolls forward another week it turns out that the weather is still shit.

    It wouldn't surprise me if it were still 12°C and blowing a gale in August, TBH.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    Philip, what did you make of the article in today’s Telegraph about UAPs, trailed on its front page in the print edition? I can’t remember whether you approve or disapprove or the Telegraph as a “real” news outlet.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Surprised travel insurance is economic at the moment.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IanB2 said:

    So let me get this straight - we locked down the entire country for 16 months, disproportionately hurting the young despite the fact that this virus didn't hurt the young, in order to protect the old.

    But now the old are vaccinated they want to be able to jet off overseas while leaving the young behind still locked down because they didn't need the vaccine yet?

    Is that right?

    If you were saying you wanted to eg get out of lockdown and hug your grandchildren then I'd have some sympathy and agree 100000%, but to go overseas while saying that those who've sacrificed so much to keep you safe are left behind?

    Yes, that's the counter-argument.

    Nevertheless the current situation - where the government is pretending foreign travel has been unlocked whilst in practice keeping it impossible for the vast majority of people to the vast majority of locations, with only those with a lot of time and money able to circumnavigate the regulations, is the worst of all worlds.

    Either allow us to travel, or don't - stop pretending that the current situation is of much help to anyone.
    The fact that the vast majority of nations are behind us in defeating the virus is on their Government's not ours.

    Is it a criticism of our Government that we are ahead of other nations? Should people be able to travel to Spain and go clubbing in Spain, when they can't go clubbing in the UK and the virus is worse in Spain than the UK?

    Finish lifting domestic lockdowns first. After that go ahead with abroad.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    moonshine said:

    Philip, what did you make of the article in today’s Telegraph about UAPs, trailed on its front page in the print edition? I can’t remember whether you approve or disapprove or the Telegraph as a “real” news outlet.

    Not read it yet but I expect it to be heavily laden with words like "may" which is journalists code for we can write whatever rubbish we like because it may be true.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    On the subject of travel, I am doing a little armchair travel planning for the post pandemic world. I was planning to do the Trans-Mongolian Railway, a lifelong ambition, and add a bit of China before flying back. I was thinking of a few days in each of Beijing, Nanjing and Shanghai, by rail.

    How tricky is independent travel in China? I was thinking of practicalities around language, signs, buying tickets etc. Any PB advice?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    Jonathan said:

    Surprised travel insurance is economic at the moment.

    Read the small print re covid carefully!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,461
    edited May 2021
    Jonathan said:

    Surprised travel insurance is economic at the moment.

    Very economic to sell it and then when someone claims say sorry you are not covered, as its not on the govts FCDO list. Which of course is different to the red/amber/green lists. We really do make things ridiculously complicated, why are the FCDO and traffic light lists not merged?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Good morning from a cloudy Essex. Hoping to be able to watch play at our local cricket club this afternoon, though. Ground drains well, and no rain is forecast.

    If rules on socialising holidays are not relaxed as expected, I doubt whether there will be a 'severe' backlash. Among those I mix with anyway; I suspect the reaction will be 'he's done his best, it's those others.'

    It would be best to dispense with the ambiguity and simply tell people not to go - until the EU at least has caught up with our vaccination program, and we've had a chance to work our way through the young - and then open up to travel with the neighbours properly, without this dreadful rigmarole of testing, testing, testing, testing, more bloody testing, and house arrest.

    Public patience probably will hold, for the most part, although it would help no end if I was proven wrong in my dread suspicion that the entire Summer in Britain is going to be a total washout this year. We are now nearly at the end of May, and the weather is still stuck in March. Nor do I trust the "jam tomorrow" forecasts, that suggest things will be much less shit in a week. They've been issuing those since about Easter, but every time one rolls forward another week it turns out that the weather is still shit.

    It wouldn't surprise me if it were still 12°C and blowing a gale in August, TBH.
    When I checked a week ago the long range forecast was for the weather to remain below par until late June, then above it late June, July and early August. Not seen anything yet to change my mind on that, so one more month of shit to come.

    It's Groundhog Day.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    algarkirk said:

    So let me get this straight - we locked down the entire country for 16 months, disproportionately hurting the young despite the fact that this virus didn't hurt the young, in order to protect the old.

    But now the old are vaccinated they want to be able to jet off overseas while leaving the young behind still locked down because they didn't need the vaccine yet?

    Is that right?

    If you were saying you wanted to eg get out of lockdown and hug your grandchildren then I'd have some sympathy and agree 100000%, but to go overseas while saying that those who've sacrificed so much to keep you safe are left behind?

    I know lots of boomers and hardly one who intends to go abroad until everyone can do so freely. Top concerns are: welfare of younger family/friends, employment/education opportunity for younger people, keeping sensibly safe. Dull but true.

    I am the youngest of the Boomers, only months off being Gen X. I don't know anyone planning a summer holiday abroad. Either people are staying in the UK, cautiously awaiting events, or planning to visit family. My Greek, Spanish and other colleagues are keen to see their aging parents, so more family contact than holiday as such.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684
    IanB2 said:

    Good morning from a cloudy Essex. Hoping to be able to watch play at our local cricket club this afternoon, though. Ground drains well, and no rain is forecast.

    If rules on socialising holidays are not relaxed as expected, I doubt whether there will be a 'severe' backlash. Among those I mix with anyway; I suspect the reaction will be 'he's done his best, it's those others.'

    Very grey and moody here. But I have my first adventure - a weekend on North Island, the first time on the ferry since September, taking in friends and family and a hotel in rural Kent overnight. Very excited....
    Sunshine here, will get garden done today by looks of it
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    Good piece @MikeSmithson

    You mention the trio of ministers, but don't mention Gove. But all the in-depth pieces I see keep bringing his name up as the senior minister most pushing the 'lockdown everyone all the time' agenda.
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 337
    edited May 2021
    Foxy said:

    On the subject of travel, I am doing a little armchair travel planning for the post pandemic world. I was planning to do the Trans-Mongolian Railway, a lifelong ambition, and add a bit of China before flying back. I was thinking of a few days in each of Beijing, Nanjing and Shanghai, by rail.

    How tricky is independent travel in China? I was thinking of practicalities around language, signs, buying tickets etc. Any PB advice?

    It’s ok, at least in the main cities. Translation apps on phones make a huge difference.

    Edit: that said, I have a multi-year entry visa so getting in may be harder independently.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,468
    edited May 2021
    algarkirk said:

    So let me get this straight - we locked down the entire country for 16 months, disproportionately hurting the young despite the fact that this virus didn't hurt the young, in order to protect the old.

    But now the old are vaccinated they want to be able to jet off overseas while leaving the young behind still locked down because they didn't need the vaccine yet?

    Is that right?

    If you were saying you wanted to eg get out of lockdown and hug your grandchildren then I'd have some sympathy and agree 100000%, but to go overseas while saying that those who've sacrificed so much to keep you safe are left behind?

    I know lots of boomers and hardly one who intends to go abroad until everyone can do so freely. Top concerns are: welfare of younger family/friends, employment/education opportunity for younger people, keeping sensibly safe. Dull but true.

    Yep. Problem is you will always find a selfish few who hit the news. I never understand the desire to go somewhere hot, lie on some grit and swim in sewage and brine, but it seems essential for some.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 5,997
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    So let me get this straight - we locked down the entire country for 16 months, disproportionately hurting the young despite the fact that this virus didn't hurt the young, in order to protect the old.

    But now the old are vaccinated they want to be able to jet off overseas while leaving the young behind still locked down because they didn't need the vaccine yet?

    Is that right?

    If you were saying you wanted to eg get out of lockdown and hug your grandchildren then I'd have some sympathy and agree 100000%, but to go overseas while saying that those who've sacrificed so much to keep you safe are left behind?

    I know lots of boomers and hardly one who intends to go abroad until everyone can do so freely. Top concerns are: welfare of younger family/friends, employment/education opportunity for younger people, keeping sensibly safe. Dull but true.

    I am the youngest of the Boomers, only months off being Gen X. I don't know anyone planning a summer holiday abroad. Either people are staying in the UK, cautiously awaiting events, or planning to visit family. My Greek, Spanish and other colleagues are keen to see their aging parents, so more family contact than holiday as such.

    I don't usually go abroad in the summer anyway. But for my sort of holiday I need my target country to be fully open to enjoy it - no curfews, table bookings, masks, museums etc open and public transport running properly. So I will leave it until later anyway. And I have two holidays in the UK which will undoubtedly be more expensive than where I normally go. I am hoping for a proper holiday in October, hoping we are not going back into winter quarters by then. Having said that, my new, blue passport is apparently in the post and I might go for a quick trip at short notice.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    Animal Rebellion: "The only sustainable and realistic way to feed ten billion people is with a plant-based food system."

    I agree. However I see the problem as being the billions of people, not the diet. Hopefully Covid has made everyone sterile and done the planet a favour.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    kjh said:

    algarkirk said:

    So let me get this straight - we locked down the entire country for 16 months, disproportionately hurting the young despite the fact that this virus didn't hurt the young, in order to protect the old.

    But now the old are vaccinated they want to be able to jet off overseas while leaving the young behind still locked down because they didn't need the vaccine yet?

    Is that right?

    If you were saying you wanted to eg get out of lockdown and hug your grandchildren then I'd have some sympathy and agree 100000%, but to go overseas while saying that those who've sacrificed so much to keep you safe are left behind?

    I know lots of boomers and hardly one who intends to go abroad until everyone can do so freely. Top concerns are: welfare of younger family/friends, employment/education opportunity for younger people, keeping sensibly safe. Dull but true.

    Yep. Problem is you will always find a selfish few who hit the news. I never understand the desire to go somewhere hot, lie on some grit and swim in sewage and brine, but it seems essential for some.
    I am not a beach person, more interested in sightseeing, culture, food and natural history on holidays, but clearly for many the highlight of the year is a couple of weeks on the beach in the sun, clubbing with friends etc.

    It is the posh and the poor who mostly holiday in the UK as far as I can see.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    Well said Mike

    This situation is an absolute nonsense. I am encouraging everyone who has been vaccinated to travel wherever they like and to ignore this increasingly dystopian State.

    Travel is one of life's greatest pleasures. It broadens the horizons, renews the body and feeds the soul.

  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760

    Good piece @MikeSmithson

    You mention the trio of ministers, but don't mention Gove. But all the in-depth pieces I see keep bringing his name up as the senior minister most pushing the 'lockdown everyone all the time' agenda.

    Yes Gove is one of the architects of this menace
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,461
    kjh said:

    algarkirk said:

    So let me get this straight - we locked down the entire country for 16 months, disproportionately hurting the young despite the fact that this virus didn't hurt the young, in order to protect the old.

    But now the old are vaccinated they want to be able to jet off overseas while leaving the young behind still locked down because they didn't need the vaccine yet?

    Is that right?

    If you were saying you wanted to eg get out of lockdown and hug your grandchildren then I'd have some sympathy and agree 100000%, but to go overseas while saying that those who've sacrificed so much to keep you safe are left behind?

    I know lots of boomers and hardly one who intends to go abroad until everyone can do so freely. Top concerns are: welfare of younger family/friends, employment/education opportunity for younger people, keeping sensibly safe. Dull but true.

    Yep. Problem is you will always find a selfish few who hit the news. I never understand the desire to go somewhere hot, lie on some grit and swim in sewage and brine, but it seems essential for some.
    SAD is a real mental disorder, so for many such holidays, that give access to sunlight, are, if not essential, life changing. Not sure how true it is but heard the Nordic countries used to offer free Mediterranean holidays for those with severe SAD.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,589

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: Leclerc now shorter than Bottas and Perez for pole. However, if, like Mr. B, I'd backed him at significantly longer odds I think I'd be tempted to hold on. Sainz potential value as well.

    Had a couple of quid on Sainz, too.
    Don’t believe this ‘Monaco is boring’ guff... :smile:
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. B, the qualifying will be entertaining.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    Good piece @MikeSmithson

    You mention the trio of ministers, but don't mention Gove. But all the in-depth pieces I see keep bringing his name up as the senior minister most pushing the 'lockdown everyone all the time' agenda.

    Yes Gove is one of the architects of this menace
    One of the nice things about recent events is that everyone now agrees with what I’ve been saying for seven years - Gove is a twat.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,461
    The limiting factor for me on foreign travel this summer is not the cost, the quarantine, the testing but the airport. They are grim places full of the overly stressed turning into idiots at the best of times, but 6 hour queues wearing a mask, no thanks.

    I'd expect the airports continue to struggle all summer as each time they fix the current problem, additional countries will get moved to the green lists and the airports wont keep up with capacity changes.
  • MaffewMaffew Posts: 235
    Foxy said:

    On the subject of travel, I am doing a little armchair travel planning for the post pandemic world. I was planning to do the Trans-Mongolian Railway, a lifelong ambition, and add a bit of China before flying back. I was thinking of a few days in each of Beijing, Nanjing and Shanghai, by rail.

    How tricky is independent travel in China? I was thinking of practicalities around language, signs, buying tickets etc. Any PB advice?

    I've been to China a few times, always travelling independently. Admittedly not on the Trans-Mongolian, but I have travelled in by train from Hong Kong on the Guangdong Through Train.

    I never had any real problems getting round. In the big cities (which includes Beijing, Nanjing and Shanghai) it's pretty easy. The underground networks are excellent and have English signage. Same for major railway stations. Hotels catering for international tourists are also fine.

    For long distance travel by train you'll be fine as long as you make sure you have planned ahead properly, print outs etc. (I'm sure you're aware of him, but the man in seat 61's site is very helpful for this).

    Where things are harder is restaurants and getting around locally outside the big cities. People are generally nice and will try to be helpful, but don't expect English menus, English speakers etc.

    When I visited the three cities you're considering I spoke sod all Chinese and got by ok. Later on I spoke enough Chinese to get by and that was very helpful, but not vital.

    If you have any questions about it, feel free to drop me a private message.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288
    edited May 2021
    Foxy said:

    Good morning from a cloudy Essex. Hoping to be able to watch play at our local cricket club this afternoon, though. Ground drains well, and no rain is forecast.

    If rules on socialising holidays are not relaxed as expected, I doubt whether there will be a 'severe' backlash. Among those I mix with anyway; I suspect the reaction will be 'he's done his best, it's those others.'

    Grey, cloudy, damp in Devon - but at least the storm-force wind has abated.

    The garden looks a hell of a mess though. Twigs, branches and leaf debris everywhere.

    I may have to pay a man from the village a few shillings to do something about it...
    Edward Lear applies:
    "It is the duty of the wealthy man
    To give employment to the artisan."
    Hilare Belloc though wasn't it?
    ...wWo is buried a Roman Catholic Church in West Sussex not far from Horsham , the name of which escapes me.
  • Gadfly said:
    Never heard of him but as soon as I saw “comic” in his Twitter name I thought bad things about him.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    I see the Unionist vote in NI is increasingly split 3 ways. Could make for an interesting election next year, with the DUP not in the top 2.

    https://twitter.com/SuzyJourno/status/1395997752916643843?s=19
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    "It is striking that France is reopening so fully when new cases are still running at more than 15,000 a day,"

    Telegraph

    Are we about to see another test of whether lockdowns actually make much difference?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited May 2021

    "nonsense over the amber list"?

    Green - you can go there

    Red - you can't go there

    Amber - well, you CAN go - but I wouldn't if I were you and don't come crying to us if your holibobs go tits up....

    It's about the return of taking personal responsibility.

    As much as the media wants to say "its so confusing" about being able to go to an amber country, but it not being recommended to do so - almost everyone surely understands instinctively that is what amber means.

    Red: Stop, Green: Go, Amber: You can go, but stop if its safe to do so and it could turn red.

    Even my four year old knows what the traffic light colours mean as she'll say what they mean from her booster seat whenever we reach the traffic lights!
    Not disagreeing with what you say, but i don't think places have to go through amber to get to red. Especially as the "green" countries are still being linked to presumed/low prevalence/case numbers NOT progression of vaccination. In the right circumstances a country could easily go from green to red in a week.

    If the status was linked to vaccination progress then you could have realistic confidence that there wouldn't be dramatic changes in the case numbers or that there is a "hidden" level of infectivity circulating. And vaccination progress has fairly transparent and consistent reporting around the world. Still using case numbers as the guide gives excessive reliance on the testing and reporting practices of other countries.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    I too would like to do the Trans-Mongolian or Trans-Siberian and then hook a right onto the Lhasa express: the highest railway in the world I believe, in whose carriages oxygen has to be pumped.

    https://www.chinatibettrain.com/train.htm

  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311

    "nonsense over the amber list"?

    Green - you can go there

    Red - you can't go there

    Amber - well, you CAN go - but I wouldn't if I were you and don't come crying to us if your holibobs go tits up....

    It's about the return of taking personal responsibility.

    As much as the media wants to say "its so confusing" about being able to go to an amber country, but it not being recommended to do so - almost everyone surely understands instinctively that is what amber means.

    Red: Stop, Green: Go, Amber: You can go, but stop if its safe to do so and it could turn red.

    Even my four year old knows what the traffic light colours mean as she'll say what they mean from her booster seat whenever we reach the traffic lights!
    Well she's better than most adults. My suggestion is that it changes to red green and black. It is possible to go through a red light in special circa I.e. police car or ambulance as long as it is safe.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Foxy said:

    Covid anecdote of the day. A friends car conked out, and she needed to call out the RAC. Chatting to the chap, he revealed that earlier that day he had been called out, and that motorist had just got back from India, but hadn't isolated as he had flown back via Turkey. Quite brazen about it too, as if he had got one over on the system.

    This is why Turkey was red listed along with the Seychelles.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760

    The limiting factor for me on foreign travel this summer is not the cost, the quarantine, the testing but the airport. They are grim places full of the overly stressed turning into idiots at the best of times, but 6 hour queues wearing a mask, no thanks.

    I'd expect the airports continue to struggle all summer as each time they fix the current problem, additional countries will get moved to the green lists and the airports wont keep up with capacity changes.

    I normally love airports so I guess my starting point is to ask if you normally dislike them?

    The shops are open again and I think things will start running more smoothly. Red Terminal 3 is a very good starting point for making it less stressful.

    Mind you, I'm a business traveller so I always use business lounges which makes the whole experience very pleasant.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    Foxy said:

    On the subject of travel, I am doing a little armchair travel planning for the post pandemic world. I was planning to do the Trans-Mongolian Railway, a lifelong ambition, and add a bit of China before flying back. I was thinking of a few days in each of Beijing, Nanjing and Shanghai, by rail.

    How tricky is independent travel in China? I was thinking of practicalities around language, signs, buying tickets etc. Any PB advice?

    My tip would be to only go on holiday to democracies.

    However, a rail journey with a Trans Mongolian sounds like fun.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited May 2021
    Covid anecdote of the day 2

    Believe in personal freedom for the vaccinated?

    Hold your phone up to the QR Track & Trace scanner and proceed. No one ever checks if you actually have the App installed .... ;) It's a ruse which is doing the rounds as I heard it from three separate people on Wednesday. And it works.

    Or so I'm, cough, told.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    Covid anecdote of the day. A friends car conked out, and she needed to call out the RAC. Chatting to the chap, he revealed that earlier that day he had been called out, and that motorist had just got back from India, but hadn't isolated as he had flown back via Turkey. Quite brazen about it too, as if he had got one over on the system.

    This is why Turkey was red listed along with the Seychelles.
    I bumped into someone in town the other day who was asking for directions. She happily told me she had arrived from a red country and was quarantining. She wasn't wearing a mask either.

    I'm afraid that after I'd told her the way I just laughed, more at the Kafkaesque absurdity of the encounter.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,461

    The limiting factor for me on foreign travel this summer is not the cost, the quarantine, the testing but the airport. They are grim places full of the overly stressed turning into idiots at the best of times, but 6 hour queues wearing a mask, no thanks.

    I'd expect the airports continue to struggle all summer as each time they fix the current problem, additional countries will get moved to the green lists and the airports wont keep up with capacity changes.

    I normally love airports so I guess my starting point is to ask if you normally dislike them?

    The shops are open again and I think things will start running more smoothly. Red Terminal 3 is a very good starting point for making it less stressful.

    Mind you, I'm a business traveller so I always use business lounges which makes the whole experience very pleasant.
    Love airports wow! Business class is definitely a lot less stressful but the airport bit is never enjoyable even with the lounges. The worst bits are the interminable waiting and queuing and the baggage carousel, where (almost) literally no-one understands that if we all stayed behind the lines clearly marked on the floor it would work so much smoother.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    I haven’t seen the Yougov data published but an 18 point Tory lead would be the biggest in over a year.

    Until the second jab rollout is completed and furlough is finished I can continue to expect double figure leads.

    The bigger question right now is what will be finished first - the vaccine rollout or Starmer’s political career?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    malcolmg said:

    IanB2 said:

    Good morning from a cloudy Essex. Hoping to be able to watch play at our local cricket club this afternoon, though. Ground drains well, and no rain is forecast.

    If rules on socialising holidays are not relaxed as expected, I doubt whether there will be a 'severe' backlash. Among those I mix with anyway; I suspect the reaction will be 'he's done his best, it's those others.'

    Very grey and moody here. But I have my first adventure - a weekend on North Island, the first time on the ferry since September, taking in friends and family and a hotel in rural Kent overnight. Very excited....
    Sunshine here, will get garden done today by looks of it
    Cracking here too, might even haul the bbq out.

    https://twitter.com/deckymc63/status/1395998671083380744?s=21
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited May 2021

    The limiting factor for me on foreign travel this summer is not the cost, the quarantine, the testing but the airport. They are grim places full of the overly stressed turning into idiots at the best of times, but 6 hour queues wearing a mask, no thanks.

    I'd expect the airports continue to struggle all summer as each time they fix the current problem, additional countries will get moved to the green lists and the airports wont keep up with capacity changes.

    I normally love airports so I guess my starting point is to ask if you normally dislike them?

    The shops are open again and I think things will start running more smoothly. Red Terminal 3 is a very good starting point for making it less stressful.

    Mind you, I'm a business traveller so I always use business lounges which makes the whole experience very pleasant.
    Love airports wow! Business class is definitely a lot less stressful but the airport bit is never enjoyable
    Well there you go. You don't like airports, covid or not.

    I love them even when I'm flying cattle class. I love the people watching, the visceral excitement, the shops, the thrill of the unknown.

    I always allow plenty of time so I can soak it all up and enjoy it. Love love love the places.

    Even when I'm using a business lounge I always allow masses of time to wander around beforehand and vicariously live the thrill of a thousand other journeys.

    p.s. but my name is not Richard Curtis.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    The limiting factor for me on foreign travel this summer is not the cost, the quarantine, the testing but the airport. They are grim places full of the overly stressed turning into idiots at the best of times, but 6 hour queues wearing a mask, no thanks.

    I'd expect the airports continue to struggle all summer as each time they fix the current problem, additional countries will get moved to the green lists and the airports wont keep up with capacity changes.

    Theoretically green list arrivals should have a very smooth experience. Eventually I think Heathrow will run three terminals for each arrival list. Green list passengers will get to flow through as a normal experience with e-gates, no masks and a pre-COVID experience of flying, amber will be as now with queues and checks, red will be plane to border control to hotel.

    What really needs to happen is merging of green and amber and a cut off date that only allows double jabbed people to arrive in the UK regardless of red/amber/green. Maybe at some point in July when 80-90% will have had it twice and 50-60% of Europeans and Americans in the same place. Fully vaccinated people should eventually be exempt from everything except a day 2 and day 10 lateral flow test, maybe one one departure. Everyone who isn't double jabbed has to come on special quarantine flights with other unvaccinated peopl and do the hotel stay.

    I think Europe and America needs to go down this road and just wait for the rest of the world to catch up.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    Brom said:

    I haven’t seen the Yougov data published but an 18 point Tory lead would be the biggest in over a year.

    For those of us who missed it, where did this amazing snippet come from? And when? Any links?
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    algarkirk said:

    So let me get this straight - we locked down the entire country for 16 months, disproportionately hurting the young despite the fact that this virus didn't hurt the young, in order to protect the old.

    But now the old are vaccinated they want to be able to jet off overseas while leaving the young behind still locked down because they didn't need the vaccine yet?

    Is that right?

    If you were saying you wanted to eg get out of lockdown and hug your grandchildren then I'd have some sympathy and agree 100000%, but to go overseas while saying that those who've sacrificed so much to keep you safe are left behind?

    I know lots of boomers and hardly one who intends to go abroad until everyone can do so freely. Top concerns are: welfare of younger family/friends, employment/education opportunity for younger people, keeping sensibly safe. Dull but true.

    I have some sympathy for those who want to go abroad to visit family. What I cannot understand is the demand for a holiday. You can holiday here. It might be cold and wet, and expensive. But it is still a holiday. Mike seems to have caught the journalists disease of being obsessed with when we can go on holiday and not understanding sets of rules when they introduce the slightest bit of complexity to become in his words nonsense.

    It will not be that long until everyone is double immunised. Most older people I know are not overly concerned about going to Spain, and I have heard it from some retired people that it would be unfair for them to go away when others haven't even had a vaccine yet. It may hurt the Tories more if the selfish bastard brigade correlate with their voters - perhaps we will actually get some polling on this.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    edited May 2021
    Foxy said:

    I see the Unionist vote in NI is increasingly split 3 ways. Could make for an interesting election next year, with the DUP not in the top 2.

    https://twitter.com/SuzyJourno/status/1395997752916643843?s=19

    Beat me to it.
    Almost a certainty that O’Neill would be FM in that scenario surely, which would have big symbolic importance in itself?

    Edit: checked Wiki and it would be a certainty as largest party at Stormont nominates FM
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,461
    MaxPB said:

    The limiting factor for me on foreign travel this summer is not the cost, the quarantine, the testing but the airport. They are grim places full of the overly stressed turning into idiots at the best of times, but 6 hour queues wearing a mask, no thanks.

    I'd expect the airports continue to struggle all summer as each time they fix the current problem, additional countries will get moved to the green lists and the airports wont keep up with capacity changes.

    Theoretically green list arrivals should have a very smooth experience. Eventually I think Heathrow will run three terminals for each arrival list. Green list passengers will get to flow through as a normal experience with e-gates, no masks and a pre-COVID experience of flying, amber will be as now with queues and checks, red will be plane to border control to hotel.

    What really needs to happen is merging of green and amber and a cut off date that only allows double jabbed people to arrive in the UK regardless of red/amber/green. Maybe at some point in July when 80-90% will have had it twice and 50-60% of Europeans and Americans in the same place. Fully vaccinated people should eventually be exempt from everything except a day 2 and day 10 lateral flow test, maybe one one departure. Everyone who isn't double jabbed has to come on special quarantine flights with other unvaccinated peopl and do the hotel stay.

    I think Europe and America needs to go down this road and just wait for the rest of the world to catch up.
    Surely the current govt plan of considering the mix of infection rates and vaccination rates is superior to considering either alone?

    Isnt a double jabbed person from India currently a bigger risk than a person not vaccinated from Australia?

    At some point as infection rates in India drop (or Australia rise) that flips, so the decision should be based on the mix of vaccination and infection. One the govt have got right first time!
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited May 2021
    The answer with an airport is to allow plenty of time, kick back and soak it up. Start to feel the unwind. Watch people: see them interacting. You'll see every human emotion going. Experience their fears, their thrills, their stresses, their sadness, their joys.

    Savour your moment too. International travel will be even more precious after this pandemic.

    Travel is when I come alive, and airports too even when they throw curve-balls at you. Most of my life is humdrum until I draw up at Arrivals. Then the fun starts.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288

    Well said Mike

    This situation is an absolute nonsense. I am encouraging everyone who has been vaccinated to travel wherever they like and to ignore this increasingly dystopian State.

    Travel is one of life's greatest pleasures. It broadens the horizons, renews the body and feeds the soul.

    ..and of you contract Covid 19 on your travels, do go bleating youth Govt yo get you home because they won't...
    Brom said:

    I haven’t seen the Yougov data published but an 18 point Tory lead would be the biggest in over a year.

    Until the second jab rollout is completed and furlough is finished I can continue to expect double figure leads.

    The bigger question right now is what will be finished first - the vaccine rollout or Starmer’s political career?

    18pts ??????
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of travel, I am doing a little armchair travel planning for the post pandemic world. I was planning to do the Trans-Mongolian Railway, a lifelong ambition, and add a bit of China before flying back. I was thinking of a few days in each of Beijing, Nanjing and Shanghai, by rail.

    How tricky is independent travel in China? I was thinking of practicalities around language, signs, buying tickets etc. Any PB advice?

    My tip would be to only go on holiday to democracies.

    However, a rail journey with a Trans Mongolian sounds like fun.
    I understand that view, but when travelling I am not visiting the government, just the country. By their very nature of non-democracies it is not the choice of the people that they are not living in a democracy.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760

    Well said Mike

    This situation is an absolute nonsense. I am encouraging everyone who has been vaccinated to travel wherever they like and to ignore this increasingly dystopian State.

    Travel is one of life's greatest pleasures. It broadens the horizons, renews the body and feeds the soul.

    ..and of you contract Covid 19 on your travels, do go bleating youth Govt yo get you home because they won't...
    Brom said:

    I haven’t seen the Yougov data published but an 18 point Tory lead would be the biggest in over a year.

    Until the second jab rollout is completed and furlough is finished I can continue to expect double figure leads.

    The bigger question right now is what will be finished first - the vaccine rollout or Starmer’s political career?

    18pts ??????
    I won't. I'm double vaccinated. Low to zero risk.

    Every time I travel internationally I open myself up to a thousand risks. It's part of the excitement. Covid will be but one of those thousand, and not a particularly important one.
  • MaffewMaffew Posts: 235
    MaxPB said:

    The limiting factor for me on foreign travel this summer is not the cost, the quarantine, the testing but the airport. They are grim places full of the overly stressed turning into idiots at the best of times, but 6 hour queues wearing a mask, no thanks.

    I'd expect the airports continue to struggle all summer as each time they fix the current problem, additional countries will get moved to the green lists and the airports wont keep up with capacity changes.

    Theoretically green list arrivals should have a very smooth experience. Eventually I think Heathrow will run three terminals for each arrival list. Green list passengers will get to flow through as a normal experience with e-gates, no masks and a pre-COVID experience of flying, amber will be as now with queues and checks, red will be plane to border control to hotel.

    What really needs to happen is merging of green and amber and a cut off date that only allows double jabbed people to arrive in the UK regardless of red/amber/green. Maybe at some point in July when 80-90% will have had it twice and 50-60% of Europeans and Americans in the same place. Fully vaccinated people should eventually be exempt from everything except a day 2 and day 10 lateral flow test, maybe one one departure. Everyone who isn't double jabbed has to come on special quarantine flights with other unvaccinated peopl and do the hotel stay.

    I think Europe and America needs to go down this road and just wait for the rest of the world to catch up.
    Out of interest, are you thinking that there'll be scope to move second jabs forward? I've got my first booked next week and it would only let me book my second for mid August.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    @foxy In Shanghai and Beijing you’d be fine in smart places. But really you just get the Google Translate App and that does it all for you with the camera for menus and speaker for drivers. Whether I’d personally recommend China? Some people like it. It’s a big old world out there and I can think of perhaps 150 countries I would rather go to than ever go back to China. Don’t let that stop you though, the Trans Siberian Railway does sound good.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    The limiting factor for me on foreign travel this summer is not the cost, the quarantine, the testing but the airport. They are grim places full of the overly stressed turning into idiots at the best of times, but 6 hour queues wearing a mask, no thanks.

    I'd expect the airports continue to struggle all summer as each time they fix the current problem, additional countries will get moved to the green lists and the airports wont keep up with capacity changes.

    Theoretically green list arrivals should have a very smooth experience. Eventually I think Heathrow will run three terminals for each arrival list. Green list passengers will get to flow through as a normal experience with e-gates, no masks and a pre-COVID experience of flying, amber will be as now with queues and checks, red will be plane to border control to hotel.

    What really needs to happen is merging of green and amber and a cut off date that only allows double jabbed people to arrive in the UK regardless of red/amber/green. Maybe at some point in July when 80-90% will have had it twice and 50-60% of Europeans and Americans in the same place. Fully vaccinated people should eventually be exempt from everything except a day 2 and day 10 lateral flow test, maybe one one departure. Everyone who isn't double jabbed has to come on special quarantine flights with other unvaccinated peopl and do the hotel stay.

    I think Europe and America needs to go down this road and just wait for the rest of the world to catch up.
    Surely the current govt plan of considering the mix of infection rates and vaccination rates is superior to considering either alone?

    Isnt a double jabbed person from India currently a bigger risk than a person not vaccinated from Australia?

    At some point as infection rates in India drop (or Australia rise) that flips, so the decision should be based on the mix of vaccination and infection. One the govt have got right first time!
    That's why you'd still have a red list. It would actually be tightening the current restrictions quite significantly as right now an Aussie can come here as a green listed person, under a vaccine passport system they'd only be able come under green list conditions if they had been double jabbed. Otherwise they're on the quarantine flight with red list people. Same for Japan, NZ and other countries with low incidence rates but very poor vaccine programmes.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited May 2021

    The limiting factor for me on foreign travel this summer is not the cost, the quarantine, the testing but the airport. They are grim places full of the overly stressed turning into idiots at the best of times, but 6 hour queues wearing a mask, no thanks.

    I'd expect the airports continue to struggle all summer as each time they fix the current problem, additional countries will get moved to the green lists and the airports wont keep up with capacity changes.

    I normally love airports so I guess my starting point is to ask if you normally dislike them?

    The shops are open again and I think things will start running more smoothly. Red Terminal 3 is a very good starting point for making it less stressful.

    Mind you, I'm a business traveller so I always use business lounges which makes the whole experience very pleasant.
    Love airports wow! Business class is definitely a lot less stressful but the airport bit is never enjoyable even with the lounges. The worst bits are the interminable waiting and queuing and the baggage carousel, where (almost) literally no-one understands that if we all stayed behind the lines clearly marked on the floor it would work so much smoother.
    There are lots of places that other/most people hate but i really rather enjoy. Airports, supermarkets, travelling on public transport (particularly in London), shopping at Christmas...

    I think it's just the mass of crowds, people from all walks of life in one place - everywhere you look a hidden story. Ironic in a way because i'm a natural introvert who doesn't actually enjoy meeting people (so often feel isolated at eg. parties or events where doing so is a necessary precondition to enjoyment).

    I think it helps that i am the sort of person that never goes out of my way to be in a hurry, or find reasons to increase my stress level, which means i can take that bit of time to just observe the world going by without getting caught up in the frustrations or stress that many are experiencing*. There might be an occasional laugh or joke with a complete stranger about a situation you find yourself in or observe - where both are of one thought/mind, and of course there's always the potential for a bit of shared complaining and cursing at the stupidity of others/authority/bureaucracy if necessary. But generally if i can just sit somewhere with a cup of coffee, a book or the internet - that's enough for me.

    *of course it all goes out of the window the moment i am up against a hard deadline and running seriously late - at that point panic and anxiety rapidly kick in. My basic approach in most situations is guided by fear of the latter. Get there early. Have plenty of time. And leave the stress to others. And to some extent gain enjoyment out of the fact that they are stressed and i am not.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    Strictly speaking Trans-Siberian and Trans-Mongolian are two different lines.

    https://www.thetranssiberiantravelcompany.com/planning-route-options/

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    edited May 2021
    Maffew said:

    MaxPB said:

    The limiting factor for me on foreign travel this summer is not the cost, the quarantine, the testing but the airport. They are grim places full of the overly stressed turning into idiots at the best of times, but 6 hour queues wearing a mask, no thanks.

    I'd expect the airports continue to struggle all summer as each time they fix the current problem, additional countries will get moved to the green lists and the airports wont keep up with capacity changes.

    Theoretically green list arrivals should have a very smooth experience. Eventually I think Heathrow will run three terminals for each arrival list. Green list passengers will get to flow through as a normal experience with e-gates, no masks and a pre-COVID experience of flying, amber will be as now with queues and checks, red will be plane to border control to hotel.

    What really needs to happen is merging of green and amber and a cut off date that only allows double jabbed people to arrive in the UK regardless of red/amber/green. Maybe at some point in July when 80-90% will have had it twice and 50-60% of Europeans and Americans in the same place. Fully vaccinated people should eventually be exempt from everything except a day 2 and day 10 lateral flow test, maybe one one departure. Everyone who isn't double jabbed has to come on special quarantine flights with other unvaccinated peopl and do the hotel stay.

    I think Europe and America needs to go down this road and just wait for the rest of the world to catch up.
    Out of interest, are you thinking that there'll be scope to move second jabs forward? I've got my first booked next week and it would only let me book my second for mid August.
    Yes, I expect that August date is just a placeholder based on 12 weeks. I'd be shocked if anyone who got Pfizer in May was waiting beyond the middle July for a second dose, probably earlier.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of travel, I am doing a little armchair travel planning for the post pandemic world. I was planning to do the Trans-Mongolian Railway, a lifelong ambition, and add a bit of China before flying back. I was thinking of a few days in each of Beijing, Nanjing and Shanghai, by rail.

    How tricky is independent travel in China? I was thinking of practicalities around language, signs, buying tickets etc. Any PB advice?

    My tip would be to only go on holiday to democracies.

    However, a rail journey with a Trans Mongolian sounds like fun.
    I understand that view, but when travelling I am not visiting the government, just the country. By their very nature of non-democracies it is not the choice of the people that they are not living in a democracy.
    Very true. However, I am also thinking of the risk of getting on the wrong side of the authorities. We've seen cases where people taking photographs at airports, kissing in a restaurant, etc have found themselves locked up by an authoritarian regime.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    alex_ said:

    The limiting factor for me on foreign travel this summer is not the cost, the quarantine, the testing but the airport. They are grim places full of the overly stressed turning into idiots at the best of times, but 6 hour queues wearing a mask, no thanks.

    I'd expect the airports continue to struggle all summer as each time they fix the current problem, additional countries will get moved to the green lists and the airports wont keep up with capacity changes.

    I normally love airports so I guess my starting point is to ask if you normally dislike them?

    The shops are open again and I think things will start running more smoothly. Red Terminal 3 is a very good starting point for making it less stressful.

    Mind you, I'm a business traveller so I always use business lounges which makes the whole experience very pleasant.
    Love airports wow! Business class is definitely a lot less stressful but the airport bit is never enjoyable even with the lounges. The worst bits are the interminable waiting and queuing and the baggage carousel, where (almost) literally no-one understands that if we all stayed behind the lines clearly marked on the floor it would work so much smoother.
    There are lots of places that other/most people hate but i really rather enjoy. Airports, supermarkets, travelling on public transport (particularly in London), shopping at Christmas...

    I think it's just the mass of crowds, people from all walks of life in one place - everywhere you look a hidden story. Ironic in a way because i'm a natural introvert who doesn't actually enjoy meeting people (so often feel isolated at eg. parties or events where doing so is a necessary precondition to enjoyment).

    I think it helps that i am the sort of person that never goes out of my way to be in a hurry, or find reasons to increase my stress level, which means i can take that bit of time to just observe the world going by without getting caught up in the frustrations or stress that many are experiencing*. There might be an occasional laugh or joke with a complete stranger about a situation you find yourself in or observe - where both are of one thought/mind, and of course there's always the potential for a bit of shared complaining if necessary. But generally if i can just sit somewhere with a cup of coffee, a book or the internet - that's enough for me.

    *of course it all goes out of the window the moment i am up against a hard deadline and running seriously late - at that point panic and anxiety rapidly kick in. My basic approach in most situations is guided by fear of the latter. Get there early. Have plenty of time. And leave the stress to others. And to some extent gain enjoyment out of the fact that they are stressed and i am not.
    What a great post.

    Said it perfectly.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    On the subject of travel, I am doing a little armchair travel planning for the post pandemic world. I was planning to do the Trans-Mongolian Railway, a lifelong ambition, and add a bit of China before flying back. I was thinking of a few days in each of Beijing, Nanjing and Shanghai, by rail.

    How tricky is independent travel in China? I was thinking of practicalities around language, signs, buying tickets etc. Any PB advice?

    My tip would be to only go on holiday to democracies.

    However, a rail journey with a Trans Mongolian sounds like fun.
    I understand that view, but when travelling I am not visiting the government, just the country. By their very nature of non-democracies it is not the choice of the people that they are not living in a democracy.
    Very true. However, I am also thinking of the risk of getting on the wrong side of the authorities. We've seen cases where people taking photographs at airports, kissing in a restaurant, etc have found themselves locked up by an authoritarian regime.
    That possibility is by no means confined to non-democracies. Don't go photographing any airplanes in Greece...
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,016

    "nonsense over the amber list"?

    Green - you can go there

    Red - you can't go there

    Amber - well, you CAN go - but I wouldn't if I were you and don't come crying to us if your holibobs go tits up....

    It's about the return of taking personal responsibility.

    Had the message for all the amber countries always been what you say then great! But the government (or are they now just a range of tits in job-titled jackets?) have been banging on and on about unlocking and holidays with stories fed to their client press wapping great big page 1 leads about it.

    What makes it even stupider is that we create a green list that includes countries you CANNOT travel to like Singapore. Surely a basic requirement of a green status is that you can actually travel there.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    alex_ said:

    The limiting factor for me on foreign travel this summer is not the cost, the quarantine, the testing but the airport. They are grim places full of the overly stressed turning into idiots at the best of times, but 6 hour queues wearing a mask, no thanks.

    I'd expect the airports continue to struggle all summer as each time they fix the current problem, additional countries will get moved to the green lists and the airports wont keep up with capacity changes.

    I normally love airports so I guess my starting point is to ask if you normally dislike them?

    The shops are open again and I think things will start running more smoothly. Red Terminal 3 is a very good starting point for making it less stressful.

    Mind you, I'm a business traveller so I always use business lounges which makes the whole experience very pleasant.
    Love airports wow! Business class is definitely a lot less stressful but the airport bit is never enjoyable even with the lounges. The worst bits are the interminable waiting and queuing and the baggage carousel, where (almost) literally no-one understands that if we all stayed behind the lines clearly marked on the floor it would work so much smoother.
    There are lots of places that other/most people hate but i really rather enjoy. Airports, supermarkets, travelling on public transport (particularly in London), shopping at Christmas...

    I think it's just the mass of crowds, people from all walks of life in one place - everywhere you look a hidden story. Ironic in a way because i'm a natural introvert who doesn't actually enjoy meeting people (so often feel isolated at eg. parties or events where doing so is a necessary precondition to enjoyment).

    I think it helps that i am the sort of person that never goes out of my way to be in a hurry, or find reasons to increase my stress level, which means i can take that bit of time to just observe the world going by without getting caught up in the frustrations or stress that many are experiencing*. There might be an occasional laugh or joke with a complete stranger about a situation you find yourself in or observe - where both are of one thought/mind, and of course there's always the potential for a bit of shared complaining and cursing at the stupidity of others/authority/bureaucracy if necessary. But generally if i can just sit somewhere with a cup of coffee, a book or the internet - that's enough for me.

    *of course it all goes out of the window the moment i am up against a hard deadline and running seriously late - at that point panic and anxiety rapidly kick in. My basic approach in most situations is guided by fear of the latter. Get there early. Have plenty of time. And leave the stress to others. And to some extent gain enjoyment out of the fact that they are stressed and i am not.
    Solo travel is great for introverts, and I too quite ejoy the mundane bits such as using public transport (in non covid times). It is great for people watching, but you do not have to engage in conversation, and when you do it is semi scripted.

    I like foreign supermarkets, hospitals*, and rail travel. Each is an insight into how people live that a package misses out.

    *in a professional capacity! When on my work related trips.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,016

    So let me get this straight - we locked down the entire country for 16 months, disproportionately hurting the young despite the fact that this virus didn't hurt the young, in order to protect the old.

    But now the old are vaccinated they want to be able to jet off overseas while leaving the young behind still locked down because they didn't need the vaccine yet?

    Is that right?

    If you were saying you wanted to eg get out of lockdown and hug your grandchildren then I'd have some sympathy and agree 100000%, but to go overseas while saying that those who've sacrificed so much to keep you safe are left behind?

    It isn't the olds trying to fly off, its everyone. Punters want their summer holiday, they deserve their summer holiday and they have been promised a summer holiday by the government. So you can't start coming out with arbitrary rule changes now because we're already mentally there on the beach.

    Don't worry, the madness is at both ends. Communitat Valenciana is lobbying to be added onto a green list despite still having a curfew and mandatory mask wearing inside and out. Off their bloody tits they are. Come to Benidorm. Here is your mask for wearing on the beach.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited May 2021

    "nonsense over the amber list"?

    Green - you can go there

    Red - you can't go there

    Amber - well, you CAN go - but I wouldn't if I were you and don't come crying to us if your holibobs go tits up....

    It's about the return of taking personal responsibility.

    Had the message for all the amber countries always been what you say then great! But the government (or are they now just a range of tits in job-titled jackets?) have been banging on and on about unlocking and holidays with stories fed to their client press wapping great big page 1 leads about it.

    What makes it even stupider is that we create a green list that includes countries you CANNOT travel to like Singapore. Surely a basic requirement of a green status is that you can actually travel there.
    I suppose one could point out that whilst might reasonably conclude otherwise from the presentation and media reporting, for most of this pandemic Government guidance hasn't been targeted at the British - but at those who might want to come here from abroad.

    Hence the majority of measures being about what you could/should do on arrival, not the requirements on departure. One could be forgiven for thinking that impact on holidays, and ability (or not) of people to go on them has often just been a derivative consequence.

    And if you think about it, some of the requirements to leave the country make no sense. Why should the British government have (or had?) a requirement for people to have negative COVID tests prior to departure? (I think that's correct - apologies if wrong). If the fear is of people catching/bringing in variants from abroad, then whether you have the virus on departure is really pretty irrelevant.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    "nonsense over the amber list"?

    Green - you can go there

    Red - you can't go there

    Amber - well, you CAN go - but I wouldn't if I were you and don't come crying to us if your holibobs go tits up....

    It's about the return of taking personal responsibility.

    Had the message for all the amber countries always been what you say then great! But the government (or are they now just a range of tits in job-titled jackets?) have been banging on and on about unlocking and holidays with stories fed to their client press wapping great big page 1 leads about it.

    What makes it even stupider is that we create a green list that includes countries you CANNOT travel to like Singapore. Surely a basic requirement of a green status is that you can actually travel there.
    Not really, the list system is for incoming travellers. It's not necessarily about coming back, it is just about coming to the UK.

    Take the example of a long term resident in Singapore who is a British citizen, they can now come to the UK with few checks and then fly back to Singapore as they are a long term resident.

    Eventually the UK will be added to other green lists because our vaccine programme is advancing very rapidly. I know for sure that a lot of East Asian countries have got the UK pencilled in for green listing. We've been told that resuming business flying to Japan is weeks away rather than months now and that's based on the Japanese government green listing UK vaccinated arrivals.
This discussion has been closed.