Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

The King of the North succeeding Starmer? More like The King of Wishful Thinking – politicalbetting.

245

Comments

  • andypetukandypetuk Posts: 53
    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: Matt Hancock helped former Tory minister secure £180m PPE contract

    Brooks Newmark, who resigned in sexts scandal, lobbied him on behalf of Chinese supplier

    He got "urgent" help and had contract signed in days


    W @GeorgeGreenwood @Direthoughts
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0ed3468a-b5aa-11eb-a803-dd7acc9bc346?shareToken=d1c8fcc1c13ec77442ac22c16b1decb8

    And goggles were delivered quickly, at fair price and after normal processes were followed, and no rules were broken.

    Some of these contracts look iffy - but this one really doesn't.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 2,981
    Scott_xP said:

    Fishing said:

    And they do have a bunch of ideas (planning reform, Get Brexit Done, levelling up, protect the Union, etc.)

    Those are slogans, not plans.

    I didn't say they were plans, I said they were ideas.

    They are being embodied in plans.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,251
    edited May 16

    ydoethur said:

    Well, you may know both of those for ‘a fact’ but you would be completely wrong.

    There were a number of articles on Cameron from 2002 onwards in the Times and Telegraph suggesting he had what it would take. There was frequent mention of him by other MPs on TV and radio, usually bracketed with Osborne, Johnson and Gove. There was a documentary on Michael Howard in 2004 that mentioned him as a long term leadership contender. Gossip in the PCP suggested he and Gove might be realistic leadership contenders for a 2009 leadership election should Labour have won again.

    So if you didn’t know this it was because you weren’t paying attention.

    As it happens, he bobbed up much more quickly than expected, partly through his own gambling instincts, partly through that speech and partly because David Davis turned in such a dismal performance. But that doesn’t mean he emerged from nowhere.

    Similarly, Blair was tipped as a potential leader from the mid-1980s onwards, although he was thought to be behind Brown in the Buggins Turn stakes.

    And I say again, I don’t see or hear the same commentary about any current Labour MP.

    Thought you were right, so wanted to wanted to find some 2002/3 stories with DaveC future leader mentions..

    I searched google for "David Cameron" from 1/1/2002 to 1/1/2004 and found an article he wrote in the Guardian about Macedonia and an Oxford Mail story about local MP visiting a school. (Also, don't think he was the 18yo student David Cameron who set fire to his friend dressed as a mummy in toilet paper https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/student-set-fire-paper-mummy-2491691 )

    Extending my search to 2004 there was this from August
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-314340/Love-Tory-Conservatives-golden-girl-married-man.html
    Which is a story about his stepfather-in-law having an affair with his boss's political secretary who happens to be his son's godmather. Usual political incest stuff.
    Says of Cameron "In her role as political adviser, one figure Miss Whetstone has helped promote is David Cameron, 37, the Conservative MP for Witney in Oxfordshire and a happily married father-of-two (with whom she is not involved romantically).
    Eton-educated Cameron, who is in charge of policy co-ordination for the party, is the stepson-in-law of Viscount Astor, 52, a former government whip and Opposition spokesman in the House of Lords." No potential future leader stuff.
    Somewhat amusingly followed by this about Boris
    "Three weeks before publication of his first novel, Seventy Two Virgins, preening Spectator editor and Tory MP Boris Johnson has uncharacteristically come over all modest.
    For I hear that at the last minute he has cut from the book, which is heavily autobiographical - the hero is a bicycle-riding MP - a number of sex scenes and details of an affair.
    Why could this be? According to publishing sources, twice married Boris was concerned that readers might take the louche behaviour in the novel too literally."

    Did manage to find a July 2004 Standard article that's along the lines you're talking about..
    https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/could-public-school-toff-be-future-leader-6959153.html
    "Virtually unknown outside the Westminster village, MPs such as David Cameron and George Osborne are hailed by their friends as the answer to New Labour's dominance"

    Again rather amusingly followed by a Boris take..
    "Mr Johnson goes down a storm at Tory conference fringes, but his Dulux dog fringe is the main image the public have of him. His appearances on Have I Got News For You have obscured his political talents.
    Labour MPs are delighted at the idea that he could ever be a contender for leader. "It would be a dream come true if Boris became Tory leader. The man is a joke," one minister said recently."

    But nothing else, and I've been through all 13 pages of hits on google for the 3 years..

    Am I looking in the wrong place?
    Probably. They were mostly oped pieces in the Times and the Telegraph. I don’t think they show up in public searches from that far back.

    Edit - the first time I ever heard David Cameron’s name was in 2002. It was in a piece written by I think Rachel Sylvester who was lamenting the fact Duncan Smith’s Shadow cabinet consisted mostly of old, white not very capable people. She suggested a need to promote younger talent, specifically ‘Boris Johnson and the less well known but equally impressive David Cameron, both of whom are potential future leaders.’

    I was intrigued enough by the comparison to do some fact finding, but thereafter it was interesting to note how often his name kept cropping up. His rise in 2005 came as no surprise to me.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 4,486
    I see no reason why the leader of a devolved authority should not be elected leader of a major political party. If we are going to have devolution then many of the more capable politicians will be running the regions, and in any case he has an executive role, which is arguably better preparation for being prime minister than being an MP. Our constitution rests on conventions which can be changed.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,837
    Fishing said:

    I didn't say they were plans, I said they were ideas.

    "I have a great idea. Let's not destroy the Union"

    "Why would the Union be in peril?"

    "Because of my other idea, Brexit..."
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,482
    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    Fenman said:

    And a new aphorism will come to pass. A good Mayor does not a Prime minister make..

    Has he been a good mayor?

    I haven’t watched his recent career but he became a bit of a media darling when he refused to lockdown unless he got more compensation for his area.

    Perhaps standing up for his area. But IIRC he didn’t get any more money than other areas and more people died as a result of his actions.

    Is he objectively that good?
    It’s interesting how much of that could apply to Johnson...
    Good morning everyone.

    As Mr Dancer (IIRC) keeps pointing out Johnson is a 'lucky general'. He won the mayoral election the second time against a 'really past his best' Red Ken, then his throw of the dice put him against the EU; if he'd campaigned For, Cameron would have stayed in power and Johnson, if he'd been made, for example, Foreign Sec would have made the Horlicks of it that he did.

    And then he'd have retired to the fringes and HIGNFY. As it was he was on a winner, especially against a another 'past his sell by' Labour leader.

    Personally I'd like to see Ed Miliband come back. IMHO he got the leadership too early.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 29,607
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 4,486

    I see no reason why the leader of a devolved authority should not be elected leader of a major political party. If we are going to have devolution then many of the more capable politicians will be running the regions, and in any case he has an executive role, which is arguably better preparation for being prime minister than being an MP. Our constitution rests on conventions which can be changed.

    And indeed, if we had a sensible constitution, Mark Drakeford might be Labour's next candidate for Prime Minister.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,251

    I see no reason why the leader of a devolved authority should not be elected leader of a major political party. If we are going to have devolution then many of the more capable politicians will be running the regions, and in any case he has an executive role, which is arguably better preparation for being prime minister than being an MP. Our constitution rests on conventions which can be changed.

    And indeed, if we had a sensible constitution, Mark Drakeford might be Labour's next candidate for Prime Minister.
    It’s just as well we have a silly constitution then.
  • MetatronMetatron Posts: 193
    Is not Rachel Reeves a female version of Ed Milliband and given the type of people who joined the Labour Party to get Corbyn elected as leader she would be handicapped in a leadership contest.Both Angela Rayner and the Islamic female doctor whose name escapes me would beat Rachel in a leadership contest.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 12,870

    FF43 said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm surprised that Labour is polling so well when you see how barren they are of both talent and ideas, and how badly the centre-left is doing across Europe.

    You would think that would be more of an issue for the Conservatives. They are the government and their lack of talent and ideas are there for the seeing.
    It does not appear to be having any effect on the support HMG is receiving
    Indeed it doesn't. To @Fishing's point, voters don't seem to care about talent and ideas right now.
  • borisatsunborisatsun Posts: 188
    ydoethur said:



    Thought you were right, so wanted to wanted to find some 2002/3 stories with DaveC future leader mentions..

    I searched google for "David Cameron" from 1/1/2002 to 1/1/2004 and found an article he wrote in the Guardian about Macedonia and an Oxford Mail story about local MP visiting a school. (Also, don't think he was the 18yo student David Cameron who set fire to his friend dressed as a mummy in toilet paper https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/student-set-fire-paper-mummy-2491691 )

    Extending my search to 2004 there was this from August
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-314340/Love-Tory-Conservatives-golden-girl-married-man.html
    Which is a story about his stepfather-in-law having an affair with his boss's political secretary who happens to be his son's godmather. Usual political incest stuff.
    Says of Cameron "In her role as political adviser, one figure Miss Whetstone has helped promote is David Cameron, 37, the Conservative MP for Witney in Oxfordshire and a happily married father-of-two (with whom she is not involved romantically).
    Eton-educated Cameron, who is in charge of policy co-ordination for the party, is the stepson-in-law of Viscount Astor, 52, a former government whip and Opposition spokesman in the House of Lords." No potential future leader stuff.
    Somewhat amusingly followed by this about Boris
    "Three weeks before publication of his first novel, Seventy Two Virgins, preening Spectator editor and Tory MP Boris Johnson has uncharacteristically come over all modest.
    For I hear that at the last minute he has cut from the book, which is heavily autobiographical - the hero is a bicycle-riding MP - a number of sex scenes and details of an affair.
    Why could this be? According to publishing sources, twice married Boris was concerned that readers might take the louche behaviour in the novel too literally."

    Did manage to find a July 2004 Standard article that's along the lines you're talking about..
    https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/could-public-school-toff-be-future-leader-6959153.html
    "Virtually unknown outside the Westminster village, MPs such as David Cameron and George Osborne are hailed by their friends as the answer to New Labour's dominance"

    Again rather amusingly followed by a Boris take..
    "Mr Johnson goes down a storm at Tory conference fringes, but his Dulux dog fringe is the main image the public have of him. His appearances on Have I Got News For You have obscured his political talents.
    Labour MPs are delighted at the idea that he could ever be a contender for leader. "It would be a dream come true if Boris became Tory leader. The man is a joke," one minister said recently."

    But nothing else, and I've been through all 13 pages of hits on google for the 3 years..

    Am I looking in the wrong place?

    Probably. They were mostly oped pieces in the Times and the Telegraph. I don’t think they show up in public searches from that far back.

    Edit - the first time I ever heard David Cameron’s name was in 2002. It was in a piece written by I think Rachel Sylvester who was lamenting the fact Duncan Smith’s Shadow cabinet consisted mostly of old, white not very capable people. She suggested a need to promote younger talent, specifically ‘Boris Johnson and the less well known but equally impressive David Cameron, both of whom are potential future leaders.’

    I was intrigued enough by the comparison to do some fact finding, but thereafter it was interesting to note how often his name kept cropping up. His rise in 2005 came as no surprise to me.
    Times archive seems to be searchable. Found this from 2003 in a search for "David Davis"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-make-cherie-pay-for-shopping-spree-jxr7fkl8kxl
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,155
    With every potential candidate, you have to build in a 10% loss of support when the media get their teeth into them. It's easy for Tories to say now that they might support Labour (or at least see others doing so) if only we were led by X, but everyone in human history has some weak spots - something they did or said 20 years ago, or merely something about their personality - and the media will make a meal of them.

    The basic problem is that 25-30% of the electorate want an excitingly different, preferably socialist, PM - Corbyn, McDonnell, anyone who gets the enthusiasm going - and can only barely be bothered to vote for someone who isn't. 10-20% will consider voting Labour for someone with competent centrist credentials, even if they're not very exciting - that was Starmer's USP until the questions over his judgment last week (which may be quite transient). Labour wins if it has someone who sounds exciting enough to motivate most of the 30% (they don't need to be Corbynesque, just dynamic with a few attractive policies) while mild enough to reassure some of the 20%. The fallacy of both wings is to think that they can do without the other.

    I'm not minded to switch Starmer, personally. I think he has a reasonable shot if he can get through the current crisis of confidence combined with Government vaccine-powered popularity.

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,475
    ydoethur said:

    I see no reason why the leader of a devolved authority should not be elected leader of a major political party. If we are going to have devolution then many of the more capable politicians will be running the regions, and in any case he has an executive role, which is arguably better preparation for being prime minister than being an MP. Our constitution rests on conventions which can be changed.

    And indeed, if we had a sensible constitution, Mark Drakeford might be Labour's next candidate for Prime Minister.
    It’s just as well we have a silly constitution then.
    You need to be careful. Leon might reappear to.profess his love again.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,837
    "British silversmiths struggling to sell in EU after Brexit deal failed to recognise UK's hallmarks"

    Things forgotten by the Tories in their obscene haste to get a deal any deal, number 577.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/15/british-silversmiths-struggling-sell-eu-brexit-deal-failed-recognise/
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,888
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's another aspect of Burnham's CV which sits uncomfortably with his current ambitions.
    It was perfectly legit for him to choose to leave the House of Commons during the Corbyn Years. But it does have an air of moving to Switzerland for the duration of World War Two. To be launching squibs against Starmer from his current perch really isn't on.

    I'm not sure the current Labour Party is leadable by anyone.

    Rayner seems like she'd be a good laugh and is capable of impersonating a normal person. However, they'd be better off going for a squad based approach with very prominent frontbenchers like Jess Rodham Philips and Lisa Nandy taking turns to put the boot into Johnson 24/7. There isn't a pube's width of difference in policy between Labour and the tories so they need to concentrate on destroying Johnson as he is their problem.
    It's not difficult. Just recognise that attacking the incoherent, greedy bloke on the other side who keeps getting things wrong is more useful than attacking your boss.

    Even if you think your boss is a bit of a duffer.
    Especially if you think your boss is a bit of a duffer.
    On other the hand if she takes out Starmer (and she nearly did last week) then that demonstrates she's got the necessary bloodlust. She is more Johnsonesque in her political methods and presentation than either of them would admit.


    Yes, she is not afraid of being herself. She also is a very adept politician, managing to be promoted when told she was sacked! She clearly has a powerbase in the party to do so.

    I can see why she frightens the horses, but to be next leader she doesn't need their support, just the support of members and registered supporters. She should be quite short as next leader, shorter than she is.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,837
    Foxy said:

    Yes, she is not afraid of being herself. She also is a very adept politician, managing to be promoted when told she was sacked! She clearly has a powerbase in the party to do so.

    I can see why she frightens the horses, but to be next leader she doesn't need their support, just the support of members and registered supporters. She should be quite short as next leader, shorter than she is.


    ...
  • FishingFishing Posts: 2,981
    Scott_xP said:

    Fishing said:

    I didn't say they were plans, I said they were ideas.

    "I have a great idea. Let's not destroy the Union"

    "Why would the Union be in peril?"

    "Because of my other idea, Brexit..."
    Staying in the EU after 17million votes would have imperilled the Union, and democracy generally, far more.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,475
    Scott_xP said:

    "British silversmiths struggling to sell in EU after Brexit deal failed to recognise UK's hallmarks"

    Things forgotten by the Tories in their obscene haste to get a deal any deal, number 577.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/15/british-silversmiths-struggling-sell-eu-brexit-deal-failed-recognise/

    It must therefore work both ways.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,678
    andypetuk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: Matt Hancock helped former Tory minister secure £180m PPE contract

    Brooks Newmark, who resigned in sexts scandal, lobbied him on behalf of Chinese supplier

    He got "urgent" help and had contract signed in days


    W @GeorgeGreenwood @Direthoughts
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0ed3468a-b5aa-11eb-a803-dd7acc9bc346?shareToken=d1c8fcc1c13ec77442ac22c16b1decb8

    And goggles were delivered quickly, at fair price and after normal processes were followed, and no rules were broken.

    Some of these contracts look iffy - but this one really doesn't.
    I don't think Scott understands how business works.

    Now if we want to look at a scandal we can consider how dependent the NHS was on imports.

    Or perhaps we can consider how Cameron was trying, for personal gain, to get his sleazy friend Greensill into a totally unnecessary middle man role in NHS finances.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,251

    ydoethur said:



    Thought you were right, so wanted to wanted to find some 2002/3 stories with DaveC future leader mentions..

    I searched google for "David Cameron" from 1/1/2002 to 1/1/2004 and found an article he wrote in the Guardian about Macedonia and an Oxford Mail story about local MP visiting a school. (Also, don't think he was the 18yo student David Cameron who set fire to his friend dressed as a mummy in toilet paper https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/student-set-fire-paper-mummy-2491691 )

    Extending my search to 2004 there was this from August
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-314340/Love-Tory-Conservatives-golden-girl-married-man.html
    Which is a story about his stepfather-in-law having an affair with his boss's political secretary who happens to be his son's godmather. Usual political incest stuff.
    Says of Cameron "In her role as political adviser, one figure Miss Whetstone has helped promote is David Cameron, 37, the Conservative MP for Witney in Oxfordshire and a happily married father-of-two (with whom she is not involved romantically).
    Eton-educated Cameron, who is in charge of policy co-ordination for the party, is the stepson-in-law of Viscount Astor, 52, a former government whip and Opposition spokesman in the House of Lords." No potential future leader stuff.
    Somewhat amusingly followed by this about Boris
    "Three weeks before publication of his first novel, Seventy Two Virgins, preening Spectator editor and Tory MP Boris Johnson has uncharacteristically come over all modest.
    For I hear that at the last minute he has cut from the book, which is heavily autobiographical - the hero is a bicycle-riding MP - a number of sex scenes and details of an affair.
    Why could this be? According to publishing sources, twice married Boris was concerned that readers might take the louche behaviour in the novel too literally."

    Did manage to find a July 2004 Standard article that's along the lines you're talking about..
    https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/could-public-school-toff-be-future-leader-6959153.html
    "Virtually unknown outside the Westminster village, MPs such as David Cameron and George Osborne are hailed by their friends as the answer to New Labour's dominance"

    Again rather amusingly followed by a Boris take..
    "Mr Johnson goes down a storm at Tory conference fringes, but his Dulux dog fringe is the main image the public have of him. His appearances on Have I Got News For You have obscured his political talents.
    Labour MPs are delighted at the idea that he could ever be a contender for leader. "It would be a dream come true if Boris became Tory leader. The man is a joke," one minister said recently."

    But nothing else, and I've been through all 13 pages of hits on google for the 3 years..

    Am I looking in the wrong place?

    Probably. They were mostly oped pieces in the Times and the Telegraph. I don’t think they show up in public searches from that far back.

    Edit - the first time I ever heard David Cameron’s name was in 2002. It was in a piece written by I think Rachel Sylvester who was lamenting the fact Duncan Smith’s Shadow cabinet consisted mostly of old, white not very capable people. She suggested a need to promote younger talent, specifically ‘Boris Johnson and the less well known but equally impressive David Cameron, both of whom are potential future leaders.’

    I was intrigued enough by the comparison to do some fact finding, but thereafter it was interesting to note how often his name kept cropping up. His rise in 2005 came as no surprise to me.
    Times archive seems to be searchable. Found this from 2003 in a search for "David Davis"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-make-cherie-pay-for-shopping-spree-jxr7fkl8kxl
    There’s a full archive of the Times print edition available with some library cards as well. Not sure what date it finishes at.

    Amusing that in searching for an article on Cameron you’ve come up with one on Mrs Blair’s notorious greed. I was talking about that very story on here not that long ago.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,200
    edited May 16
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    In the same way that red wall voters aren’t going to automatically vote for Labour if their leader has a northern accent or flags in the background, they aren’t suddenly going to be drawn to Labour if their leader has an ex-military background. .

    Labour is not offering solutions to any of the issues or concerns voters have, that is their biggest problem. Voters are not dismissive of Labour because of Israel v Palestine, or because Starmer took the knee one time, but because they appear to be incompetent and out of ideas.

    No, but trying to be objective, those voters whose principal reason for not voting Labour is because they are too southern or Tory is because they are too white might at least given their party another look if it did have a leader that neutralised that concern. Which may not be many people but it is more than none.

    And symbols can be very important in political leadership in sending messages about wider changes.

    Cameron came from almost nowhere in a very short period, as I recall. The betting challenge is spotting Labour’s Cameron.
    Cameron was being tipped as a potential future leader from at least 2003 onwards, when he and George Osborne were Michael Howard’s PPS and were dubbed ‘the Tories’ Blair and Brown.’

    There isn’t any younger candidate in Labour who has that kind of buzz about them AFAICS.
    At the tail end of the last Labour Government, Jarvis was often touted as the future, the post David Milliband future. Then Ed and Corbyn happened, and the hangover from Corbyn could run and run. Don't forget Umuna (drummed out of the party by Corbyn) was the future too.

    I now concede, Starmer has shot his bolt, if Starmer is the Kinnock-style holding figure, he needs to get on and finish that side of business. He needs to rid the party of the kingmaker union barons like McCluskey (after all, his members all vote for Johnson in the privacy of the polling booth anyway). With Johnson's scurrilous dealings with donors providing wallpaper and holidays, the time has never been better to demand public funded, limited ceiling election campaigns.

    I cannot see a way back for Labour without an economic crash, particularly under Johnson. However, all the ingredients seem to be in place for that to happen, and happen with apocalyptic results. If this catastrophe can be held off until after the next election, probably only a year or two away, Johnson romps home.

    I am not sure any of the current crop of ladies (Jess, Rayner, Nandy) touted as leader cut the mustard, although many would make fine Senior Ministers. I do like Stella Creasey and the fact she is hated by the extreme Right must be in her favour.

    I had promised Floater and Blue that I would **** off, but as they don't seem to get up until after 10, I might have got way with it.

    P.S. Benn as a more secure holding figure? (I never thought I would be suggesting someone called Benn as Labour Leader!).
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,599
    TSE's header is persuasive on Burnham, whose odds are too short. But it's not persuasive on Rachel Reeves; I wouldn't bet on her at 100/1, let alone 20/1. Only an outsider to the LP would back her; the membership would not elect her. Even if she tears Sunak to shreds, which we hope she will, she wouldn't win a leadership contest against any of the other main contenders.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,251

    ydoethur said:

    I see no reason why the leader of a devolved authority should not be elected leader of a major political party. If we are going to have devolution then many of the more capable politicians will be running the regions, and in any case he has an executive role, which is arguably better preparation for being prime minister than being an MP. Our constitution rests on conventions which can be changed.

    And indeed, if we had a sensible constitution, Mark Drakeford might be Labour's next candidate for Prime Minister.
    It’s just as well we have a silly constitution then.
    You need to be careful. Leon might reappear to.profess his love again.
    It’s too early, he’s probably still hung over.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 12,870
    Fishing said:

    FF43 said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm surprised that Labour is polling so well when you see how barren they are of both talent and ideas, and how badly the centre-left is doing across Europe.

    You would think that would be more of an issue for the Conservatives. They are the government and their lack of talent and ideas are there for the seeing.
    I disagree. Talent is subjective, but I can see three or four ministers (Sunak, Truss, etc.) as PM. And they do have a bunch of ideas (planning reform, Get Brexit Done, levelling up, protect the Union, etc.) One may disagree with them, but they exist and are clearly attractive to some people. In the last 15 years, Labour hasn't even come up with a decent, memorable slogan that I recall. "British Jobs for British Workers" is ex-BNP and "Protect the NHS" is at least 40 years old now.
    Talent in politicking, absolutely. Great at slogans. Coherent, workable policies, not really. Your examples aren't such, except possibly planning reform.

    Labour isn't any better. It does actually have a talented policy wonk in Ed Milliband, whom they should probably use more. But as I say the issue is that talent and ideas aren't valued right now.
  • borisatsunborisatsun Posts: 188

    ydoethur said:



    Thought you were right, so wanted to wanted to find some 2002/3 stories with DaveC future leader mentions..

    I searched google for "David Cameron" from 1/1/2002 to 1/1/2004 and found an article he wrote in the Guardian about Macedonia and an Oxford Mail story about local MP visiting a school. (Also, don't think he was the 18yo student David Cameron who set fire to his friend dressed as a mummy in toilet paper https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/student-set-fire-paper-mummy-2491691 )

    Extending my search to 2004 there was this from August
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-314340/Love-Tory-Conservatives-golden-girl-married-man.html
    Which is a story about his stepfather-in-law having an affair with his boss's political secretary who happens to be his son's godmather. Usual political incest stuff.
    Says of Cameron "In her role as political adviser, one figure Miss Whetstone has helped promote is David Cameron, 37, the Conservative MP for Witney in Oxfordshire and a happily married father-of-two (with whom she is not involved romantically).
    Eton-educated Cameron, who is in charge of policy co-ordination for the party, is the stepson-in-law of Viscount Astor, 52, a former government whip and Opposition spokesman in the House of Lords." No potential future leader stuff.
    Somewhat amusingly followed by this about Boris
    "Three weeks before publication of his first novel, Seventy Two Virgins, preening Spectator editor and Tory MP Boris Johnson has uncharacteristically come over all modest.
    For I hear that at the last minute he has cut from the book, which is heavily autobiographical - the hero is a bicycle-riding MP - a number of sex scenes and details of an affair.
    Why could this be? According to publishing sources, twice married Boris was concerned that readers might take the louche behaviour in the novel too literally."

    Did manage to find a July 2004 Standard article that's along the lines you're talking about..
    https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/could-public-school-toff-be-future-leader-6959153.html
    "Virtually unknown outside the Westminster village, MPs such as David Cameron and George Osborne are hailed by their friends as the answer to New Labour's dominance"

    Again rather amusingly followed by a Boris take..
    "Mr Johnson goes down a storm at Tory conference fringes, but his Dulux dog fringe is the main image the public have of him. His appearances on Have I Got News For You have obscured his political talents.
    Labour MPs are delighted at the idea that he could ever be a contender for leader. "It would be a dream come true if Boris became Tory leader. The man is a joke," one minister said recently."

    But nothing else, and I've been through all 13 pages of hits on google for the 3 years..

    Am I looking in the wrong place?

    Probably. They were mostly oped pieces in the Times and the Telegraph. I don’t think they show up in public searches from that far back.

    Edit - the first time I ever heard David Cameron’s name was in 2002. It was in a piece written by I think Rachel Sylvester who was lamenting the fact Duncan Smith’s Shadow cabinet consisted mostly of old, white not very capable people. She suggested a need to promote younger talent, specifically ‘Boris Johnson and the less well known but equally impressive David Cameron, both of whom are potential future leaders.’

    I was intrigued enough by the comparison to do some fact finding, but thereafter it was interesting to note how often his name kept cropping up. His rise in 2005 came as no surprise to me.
    Times archive seems to be searchable. Found this from 2003 in a search for "David Davis"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-make-cherie-pay-for-shopping-spree-jxr7fkl8kxl
    And if I extend the search to include 2005, there are tons of stories from Times and Telegraph..
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/horror-as-cameron-brandishes-the-b-word-rfjm9v3xhsh
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1504993/You-were-the-future-once.html

    Is this the Rachel Sylvester article?

    "In his view his friend, David Cameron, with whom he cycles into work every day, is the solution. "At every election one party represents the past and another the future, David will represent the future," he says.
    Osborne and Cameron are often described as the Blair and Brown of the Tory party. The shadow chancellor, a relaxed optimist, is more like Mr Blair in character. But he decided that he was too young for the leadership."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1494588/The-future-belongs-to-us-predicts-Tory-partys-young-star.html

    From July 2005.

    And it doesn't sound to me like she's been writing the same for three years.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 6,718
    Good morning.

    Good header TSE. Agree completely.

    As I've posted before, I backed Reeves at 50/1 four weeks ago and 25/1 a week ago - and again today at 22/1 with Bet365.

    The other market I've been considering in the Year of Next General Election. With the FTPA out of the way can anyone explain why 2024 is such a strong favourite over 2023?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,592
    No tactical voting, eh?

    The survey also shows just under one in three prospective No voters – those saying they would vote no in a second independence referendum – and one in five of all voters voted tactically in May’s elections to stop another party – most likely the SNP – from winning.

    The poll is confirmation of the scale of tactical voting on show during the election, which led to the SNP narrowly losing out on key marginal seats as historic vote shares swung behind the best-placed unionist challenger to a dominant SNP.


    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scots-split-on-snp-mandate-for-referendum-with-independence-top-priority-for-just-one-in-11-3238015
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,678
    Are there any Starmer fans left on PB ?

    Mike Smithson ?
    CorrectHorseBattery ?

    Not that he had many to begin with.

    Though he clearly did among Labour members.

    So is there a disconnect between the PB lefties and the Labour membership ?

    Well the PB lefties seem to be scattered throughout the country whereas the Labour membership is London dominated.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    In the same way that red wall voters aren’t going to automatically vote for Labour if their leader has a northern accent or flags in the background, they aren’t suddenly going to be drawn to Labour if their leader has an ex-military background. .

    Labour is not offering solutions to any of the issues or concerns voters have, that is their biggest problem. Voters are not dismissive of Labour because of Israel v Palestine, or because Starmer took the knee one time, but because they appear to be incompetent and out of ideas.

    No, but trying to be objective, those voters whose principal reason for not voting Labour is because they are too southern or Tory is because they are too white might at least given their party another look if it did have a leader that neutralised that concern. Which may not be many people but it is more than none.

    And symbols can be very important in political leadership in sending messages about wider changes.

    Cameron came from almost nowhere in a very short period, as I recall. The betting challenge is spotting Labour’s Cameron.
    Cameron was being tipped as a potential future leader from at least 2003 onwards, when he and George Osborne were Michael Howard’s PPS and were dubbed ‘the Tories’ Blair and Brown.’

    There isn’t any younger candidate in Labour who has that kind of buzz about them AFAICS.
    You're partly right but not wholly. Cameron was an outsider until 'that' speech to the party faithful in 2005. It was delivered without notes or a lectern and he paced the platform like an evangelical preacher. Until that moment he was trailing behind David Davis.

    The speech changed everything.

    It was a triumph.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2010/02/david-cameron-speech-leadership

    He was still being tipped in the press and the party as a potential future leader in 2003. It was admittedly generally thought that his time would be 2009/10 and not 2005 (albeit he had other ideas) but that doesn’t alter the conversations.

    Is there anyone in Labour who is currently being so tipped? I haven’t seen any names put forward in that way.
    This is revisionism I'm afraid.

    Cameron wasn't being widely tipped at all. I know this for a fact.

    Even in 2005 he was trailing in the race until that moment when he wowed the party faithful.

    Cameron was shadow education secretary, a minor role, and he was a shadow in more than one meaning of the word. There are plenty of similar shadows in the Labour party.

    It's always this way. The great leaders of the future seize the moment. It happened with Tony Blair who was NOT about to become leader until John Smith tragically dropped dead from a heart attack.
    I used to know a member of the selection committee who gave Cameron a seat. He described him as the “worst sort”. Spent pre-selection kissing all and sundrys arses and walked past them with his nose in the air once he had it. The story reminded me of the famous letter sent by an absentee MP for Southampton when they complained they never saw him.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,251
    edited May 16

    ydoethur said:



    Thought you were right, so wanted to wanted to find some 2002/3 stories with DaveC future leader mentions..

    I searched google for "David Cameron" from 1/1/2002 to 1/1/2004 and found an article he wrote in the Guardian about Macedonia and an Oxford Mail story about local MP visiting a school. (Also, don't think he was the 18yo student David Cameron who set fire to his friend dressed as a mummy in toilet paper https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/student-set-fire-paper-mummy-2491691 )

    Extending my search to 2004 there was this from August
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-314340/Love-Tory-Conservatives-golden-girl-married-man.html
    Which is a story about his stepfather-in-law having an affair with his boss's political secretary who happens to be his son's godmather. Usual political incest stuff.
    Says of Cameron "In her role as political adviser, one figure Miss Whetstone has helped promote is David Cameron, 37, the Conservative MP for Witney in Oxfordshire and a happily married father-of-two (with whom she is not involved romantically).
    Eton-educated Cameron, who is in charge of policy co-ordination for the party, is the stepson-in-law of Viscount Astor, 52, a former government whip and Opposition spokesman in the House of Lords." No potential future leader stuff.
    Somewhat amusingly followed by this about Boris
    "Three weeks before publication of his first novel, Seventy Two Virgins, preening Spectator editor and Tory MP Boris Johnson has uncharacteristically come over all modest.
    For I hear that at the last minute he has cut from the book, which is heavily autobiographical - the hero is a bicycle-riding MP - a number of sex scenes and details of an affair.
    Why could this be? According to publishing sources, twice married Boris was concerned that readers might take the louche behaviour in the novel too literally."

    Did manage to find a July 2004 Standard article that's along the lines you're talking about..
    https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/could-public-school-toff-be-future-leader-6959153.html
    "Virtually unknown outside the Westminster village, MPs such as David Cameron and George Osborne are hailed by their friends as the answer to New Labour's dominance"

    Again rather amusingly followed by a Boris take..
    "Mr Johnson goes down a storm at Tory conference fringes, but his Dulux dog fringe is the main image the public have of him. His appearances on Have I Got News For You have obscured his political talents.
    Labour MPs are delighted at the idea that he could ever be a contender for leader. "It would be a dream come true if Boris became Tory leader. The man is a joke," one minister said recently."

    But nothing else, and I've been through all 13 pages of hits on google for the 3 years..

    Am I looking in the wrong place?

    Probably. They were mostly oped pieces in the Times and the Telegraph. I don’t think they show up in public searches from that far back.

    Edit - the first time I ever heard David Cameron’s name was in 2002. It was in a piece written by I think Rachel Sylvester who was lamenting the fact Duncan Smith’s Shadow cabinet consisted mostly of old, white not very capable people. She suggested a need to promote younger talent, specifically ‘Boris Johnson and the less well known but equally impressive David Cameron, both of whom are potential future leaders.’

    I was intrigued enough by the comparison to do some fact finding, but thereafter it was interesting to note how often his name kept cropping up. His rise in 2005 came as no surprise to me.
    Times archive seems to be searchable. Found this from 2003 in a search for "David Davis"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-make-cherie-pay-for-shopping-spree-jxr7fkl8kxl
    And if I extend the search to include 2005, there are tons of stories from Times and Telegraph..
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/horror-as-cameron-brandishes-the-b-word-rfjm9v3xhsh
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1504993/You-were-the-future-once.html

    Is this the Rachel Sylvester article?

    "In his view his friend, David Cameron, with whom he cycles into work every day, is the solution. "At every election one party represents the past and another the future, David will represent the future," he says.
    Osborne and Cameron are often described as the Blair and Brown of the Tory party. The shadow chancellor, a relaxed optimist, is more like Mr Blair in character. But he decided that he was too young for the leadership."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1494588/The-future-belongs-to-us-predicts-Tory-partys-young-star.html

    From July 2005.

    And it doesn't sound to me like she's been writing the same for three years.
    No. Much earlier than that.

    I remember being actually surprised Cameron went to Education rather than Home Affairs in 2005, but I gather it was the role he preferred. When the candidates were declared, I made a reputation as a Nostradamus by saying to all my friends that he could do very well, albeit I still expected Davis to win.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,837

    I used to know a member of the selection committee who gave Cameron a seat. He described him as the “worst sort”.

    Worse than the MP who defected?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,837
    Yvette Cooper says that the lifting of holiday travel restrictions tomorrow should be cancelled

    She said we shouldn't be lifting restrictions at at time when there are so many new variants

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1393846968644997120
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,683

    ydoethur said:



    Thought you were right, so wanted to wanted to find some 2002/3 stories with DaveC future leader mentions..

    I searched google for "David Cameron" from 1/1/2002 to 1/1/2004 and found an article he wrote in the Guardian about Macedonia and an Oxford Mail story about local MP visiting a school. (Also, don't think he was the 18yo student David Cameron who set fire to his friend dressed as a mummy in toilet paper https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/student-set-fire-paper-mummy-2491691 )

    Extending my search to 2004 there was this from August
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-314340/Love-Tory-Conservatives-golden-girl-married-man.html
    Which is a story about his stepfather-in-law having an affair with his boss's political secretary who happens to be his son's godmather. Usual political incest stuff.
    Says of Cameron "In her role as political adviser, one figure Miss Whetstone has helped promote is David Cameron, 37, the Conservative MP for Witney in Oxfordshire and a happily married father-of-two (with whom she is not involved romantically).
    Eton-educated Cameron, who is in charge of policy co-ordination for the party, is the stepson-in-law of Viscount Astor, 52, a former government whip and Opposition spokesman in the House of Lords." No potential future leader stuff.
    Somewhat amusingly followed by this about Boris
    "Three weeks before publication of his first novel, Seventy Two Virgins, preening Spectator editor and Tory MP Boris Johnson has uncharacteristically come over all modest.
    For I hear that at the last minute he has cut from the book, which is heavily autobiographical - the hero is a bicycle-riding MP - a number of sex scenes and details of an affair.
    Why could this be? According to publishing sources, twice married Boris was concerned that readers might take the louche behaviour in the novel too literally."

    Did manage to find a July 2004 Standard article that's along the lines you're talking about..
    https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/could-public-school-toff-be-future-leader-6959153.html
    "Virtually unknown outside the Westminster village, MPs such as David Cameron and George Osborne are hailed by their friends as the answer to New Labour's dominance"

    Again rather amusingly followed by a Boris take..
    "Mr Johnson goes down a storm at Tory conference fringes, but his Dulux dog fringe is the main image the public have of him. His appearances on Have I Got News For You have obscured his political talents.
    Labour MPs are delighted at the idea that he could ever be a contender for leader. "It would be a dream come true if Boris became Tory leader. The man is a joke," one minister said recently."

    But nothing else, and I've been through all 13 pages of hits on google for the 3 years..

    Am I looking in the wrong place?

    Probably. They were mostly oped pieces in the Times and the Telegraph. I don’t think they show up in public searches from that far back.

    Edit - the first time I ever heard David Cameron’s name was in 2002. It was in a piece written by I think Rachel Sylvester who was lamenting the fact Duncan Smith’s Shadow cabinet consisted mostly of old, white not very capable people. She suggested a need to promote younger talent, specifically ‘Boris Johnson and the less well known but equally impressive David Cameron, both of whom are potential future leaders.’

    I was intrigued enough by the comparison to do some fact finding, but thereafter it was interesting to note how often his name kept cropping up. His rise in 2005 came as no surprise to me.
    Times archive seems to be searchable. Found this from 2003 in a search for "David Davis"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-make-cherie-pay-for-shopping-spree-jxr7fkl8kxl
    And if I extend the search to include 2005, there are tons of stories from Times and Telegraph..
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/horror-as-cameron-brandishes-the-b-word-rfjm9v3xhsh
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1504993/You-were-the-future-once.html

    Is this the Rachel Sylvester article?

    "In his view his friend, David Cameron, with whom he cycles into work every day, is the solution. "At every election one party represents the past and another the future, David will represent the future," he says.
    Osborne and Cameron are often described as the Blair and Brown of the Tory party. The shadow chancellor, a relaxed optimist, is more like Mr Blair in character. But he decided that he was too young for the leadership."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1494588/The-future-belongs-to-us-predicts-Tory-partys-young-star.html

    From July 2005.

    And it doesn't sound to me like she's been writing the same for three years.
    Essentially, Labour needs a leader who embodies - who is a symbol - that it has changed. SKS was, but only in terms of his politics, not being Corbyn - but his having served alongside Corbyn that only takes the party so far. Otherwise, there’s very little change, being another white middle aged male from Labour North London.

    Generational change, change of gender or sexuality, geographical change, significant change in politics; pick and mix.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,251

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    In the same way that red wall voters aren’t going to automatically vote for Labour if their leader has a northern accent or flags in the background, they aren’t suddenly going to be drawn to Labour if their leader has an ex-military background. .

    Labour is not offering solutions to any of the issues or concerns voters have, that is their biggest problem. Voters are not dismissive of Labour because of Israel v Palestine, or because Starmer took the knee one time, but because they appear to be incompetent and out of ideas.

    No, but trying to be objective, those voters whose principal reason for not voting Labour is because they are too southern or Tory is because they are too white might at least given their party another look if it did have a leader that neutralised that concern. Which may not be many people but it is more than none.

    And symbols can be very important in political leadership in sending messages about wider changes.

    Cameron came from almost nowhere in a very short period, as I recall. The betting challenge is spotting Labour’s Cameron.
    Cameron was being tipped as a potential future leader from at least 2003 onwards, when he and George Osborne were Michael Howard’s PPS and were dubbed ‘the Tories’ Blair and Brown.’

    There isn’t any younger candidate in Labour who has that kind of buzz about them AFAICS.
    You're partly right but not wholly. Cameron was an outsider until 'that' speech to the party faithful in 2005. It was delivered without notes or a lectern and he paced the platform like an evangelical preacher. Until that moment he was trailing behind David Davis.

    The speech changed everything.

    It was a triumph.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2010/02/david-cameron-speech-leadership

    He was still being tipped in the press and the party as a potential future leader in 2003. It was admittedly generally thought that his time would be 2009/10 and not 2005 (albeit he had other ideas) but that doesn’t alter the conversations.

    Is there anyone in Labour who is currently being so tipped? I haven’t seen any names put forward in that way.
    This is revisionism I'm afraid.

    Cameron wasn't being widely tipped at all. I know this for a fact.

    Even in 2005 he was trailing in the race until that moment when he wowed the party faithful.

    Cameron was shadow education secretary, a minor role, and he was a shadow in more than one meaning of the word. There are plenty of similar shadows in the Labour party.

    It's always this way. The great leaders of the future seize the moment. It happened with Tony Blair who was NOT about to become leader until John Smith tragically dropped dead from a heart attack.
    I used to know a member of the selection committee who gave Cameron a seat. He described him as the “worst sort”. Spent pre-selection kissing all and sundrys arses and walked past them with his nose in the air once he had it. The story reminded me of the famous letter sent by an absentee MP for Southampton when they complained they never saw him.
    I have a friend who used to work for him as a SPAD who says much the same. About the only good thing he could find to say about Cameron was that he wasn’t Osborne.

    But equally, being a smarmy git is no hindrance in politics.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,251
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:



    Thought you were right, so wanted to wanted to find some 2002/3 stories with DaveC future leader mentions..

    I searched google for "David Cameron" from 1/1/2002 to 1/1/2004 and found an article he wrote in the Guardian about Macedonia and an Oxford Mail story about local MP visiting a school. (Also, don't think he was the 18yo student David Cameron who set fire to his friend dressed as a mummy in toilet paper https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/student-set-fire-paper-mummy-2491691 )

    Extending my search to 2004 there was this from August
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-314340/Love-Tory-Conservatives-golden-girl-married-man.html
    Which is a story about his stepfather-in-law having an affair with his boss's political secretary who happens to be his son's godmather. Usual political incest stuff.
    Says of Cameron "In her role as political adviser, one figure Miss Whetstone has helped promote is David Cameron, 37, the Conservative MP for Witney in Oxfordshire and a happily married father-of-two (with whom she is not involved romantically).
    Eton-educated Cameron, who is in charge of policy co-ordination for the party, is the stepson-in-law of Viscount Astor, 52, a former government whip and Opposition spokesman in the House of Lords." No potential future leader stuff.
    Somewhat amusingly followed by this about Boris
    "Three weeks before publication of his first novel, Seventy Two Virgins, preening Spectator editor and Tory MP Boris Johnson has uncharacteristically come over all modest.
    For I hear that at the last minute he has cut from the book, which is heavily autobiographical - the hero is a bicycle-riding MP - a number of sex scenes and details of an affair.
    Why could this be? According to publishing sources, twice married Boris was concerned that readers might take the louche behaviour in the novel too literally."

    Did manage to find a July 2004 Standard article that's along the lines you're talking about..
    https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/could-public-school-toff-be-future-leader-6959153.html
    "Virtually unknown outside the Westminster village, MPs such as David Cameron and George Osborne are hailed by their friends as the answer to New Labour's dominance"

    Again rather amusingly followed by a Boris take..
    "Mr Johnson goes down a storm at Tory conference fringes, but his Dulux dog fringe is the main image the public have of him. His appearances on Have I Got News For You have obscured his political talents.
    Labour MPs are delighted at the idea that he could ever be a contender for leader. "It would be a dream come true if Boris became Tory leader. The man is a joke," one minister said recently."

    But nothing else, and I've been through all 13 pages of hits on google for the 3 years..

    Am I looking in the wrong place?

    Probably. They were mostly oped pieces in the Times and the Telegraph. I don’t think they show up in public searches from that far back.

    Edit - the first time I ever heard David Cameron’s name was in 2002. It was in a piece written by I think Rachel Sylvester who was lamenting the fact Duncan Smith’s Shadow cabinet consisted mostly of old, white not very capable people. She suggested a need to promote younger talent, specifically ‘Boris Johnson and the less well known but equally impressive David Cameron, both of whom are potential future leaders.’

    I was intrigued enough by the comparison to do some fact finding, but thereafter it was interesting to note how often his name kept cropping up. His rise in 2005 came as no surprise to me.
    Times archive seems to be searchable. Found this from 2003 in a search for "David Davis"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-make-cherie-pay-for-shopping-spree-jxr7fkl8kxl
    And if I extend the search to include 2005, there are tons of stories from Times and Telegraph..
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/horror-as-cameron-brandishes-the-b-word-rfjm9v3xhsh
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1504993/You-were-the-future-once.html

    Is this the Rachel Sylvester article?

    "In his view his friend, David Cameron, with whom he cycles into work every day, is the solution. "At every election one party represents the past and another the future, David will represent the future," he says.
    Osborne and Cameron are often described as the Blair and Brown of the Tory party. The shadow chancellor, a relaxed optimist, is more like Mr Blair in character. But he decided that he was too young for the leadership."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1494588/The-future-belongs-to-us-predicts-Tory-partys-young-star.html

    From July 2005.

    And it doesn't sound to me like she's been writing the same for three years.
    Essentially, Labour needs a leader who embodies - who is a symbol - that it has changed. SKS was, but only in terms of his politics, not being Corbyn - but his having served alongside Corbyn that only takes the party so far. Otherwise, there’s very little change, being another white middle aged male from Labour North London.

    Generational change, change of gender or sexuality, geographical change, significant change in politics; pick and mix.
    A change to sanity after Corbyn and Macdonnell is fairly welcome, however.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,056
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's another aspect of Burnham's CV which sits uncomfortably with his current ambitions.
    It was perfectly legit for him to choose to leave the House of Commons during the Corbyn Years. But it does have an air of moving to Switzerland for the duration of World War Two. To be launching squibs against Starmer from his current perch really isn't on.

    I'm not sure the current Labour Party is leadable by anyone.

    Rayner seems like she'd be a good laugh and is capable of impersonating a normal person. However, they'd be better off going for a squad based approach with very prominent frontbenchers like Jess Rodham Philips and Lisa Nandy taking turns to put the boot into Johnson 24/7. There isn't a pube's width of difference in policy between Labour and the tories so they need to concentrate on destroying Johnson as he is their problem.
    It's not difficult. Just recognise that attacking the incoherent, greedy bloke on the other side who keeps getting things wrong is more useful than attacking your boss.

    Even if you think your boss is a bit of a duffer.
    Especially if you think your boss is a bit of a duffer.
    On other the hand if she takes out Starmer (and she nearly did last week) then that demonstrates she's got the necessary bloodlust. She is more Johnsonesque in her political methods and presentation than either of them would admit.


    Yes, she is not afraid of being herself. She also is a very adept politician, managing to be promoted when told she was sacked! She clearly has a powerbase in the party to do so.

    I can see why she frightens the horses, but to be next leader she doesn't need their support, just the support of members and registered supporters. She should be quite short as next leader, shorter than she is.

    What does she actually stand for ? She’s clearly on a path for future greatness. I’m not sure what she actually stands for in labour terms. Touted as a left winger under Corbyn, seems to be less so now
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,965

    andypetuk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: Matt Hancock helped former Tory minister secure £180m PPE contract

    Brooks Newmark, who resigned in sexts scandal, lobbied him on behalf of Chinese supplier

    He got "urgent" help and had contract signed in days


    W @GeorgeGreenwood @Direthoughts
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0ed3468a-b5aa-11eb-a803-dd7acc9bc346?shareToken=d1c8fcc1c13ec77442ac22c16b1decb8

    And goggles were delivered quickly, at fair price and after normal processes were followed, and no rules were broken.

    Some of these contracts look iffy - but this one really doesn't.
    I don't think Scott understands how business works.

    Now if we want to look at a scandal we can consider how dependent the NHS was on imports.

    Or perhaps we can consider how Cameron was trying, for personal gain, to get his sleazy friend Greensill into a totally unnecessary middle man role in NHS finances.
    Political sobriquets always come true.

    Never has 'Dodgy Dave' looked more dodgy.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 6,151
    I have some doubts that Labour would have been better off under Burnham - he found himself showboating on the wrong side of the argument during the lockdowns, and managed to get away with it. If he'd been LOTO and been doing that I think more people would be questioning his actions. Starmer has been very good in this crisis in that he has been prepared to advocate some tough decisions ahead of the Government even when those are the hard and potentially unpopular choices.

    Reeves has an opportunity to advance her cause significantly in coming months, but I can't quite see her as leader. The field is wide open though - if you exclude the possible returning Mayors and Older Brothers, which I think I rather do, then there are perhaps 20 possibilities. Not many of the possibilities would be good choices though, and some would be simply diabolical.

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 10,389
    R

    O

    S

    E

    N

    A
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,200

    Are there any Starmer fans left on PB ?

    Mike Smithson ?
    CorrectHorseBattery ?

    Not that he had many to begin with.

    Though he clearly did among Labour members.

    So is there a disconnect between the PB lefties and the Labour membership ?

    Well the PB lefties seem to be scattered throughout the country whereas the Labour membership is London dominated.

    Like Labour membership, the number of PB lefties is declining exponentially.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,056
    Metatron said:

    Is not Rachel Reeves a female version of Ed Milliband and given the type of people who joined the Labour Party to get Corbyn elected as leader she would be handicapped in a leadership contest.Both Angela Rayner and the Islamic female doctor whose name escapes me would beat Rachel in a leadership contest.

    Rosena Allin-Khan.

    She seems quietly capable. One to watch for sure.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,683
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:



    Thought you were right, so wanted to wanted to find some 2002/3 stories with DaveC future leader mentions..

    I searched google for "David Cameron" from 1/1/2002 to 1/1/2004 and found an article he wrote in the Guardian about Macedonia and an Oxford Mail story about local MP visiting a school. (Also, don't think he was the 18yo student David Cameron who set fire to his friend dressed as a mummy in toilet paper https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/student-set-fire-paper-mummy-2491691 )

    Extending my search to 2004 there was this from August
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-314340/Love-Tory-Conservatives-golden-girl-married-man.html
    Which is a story about his stepfather-in-law having an affair with his boss's political secretary who happens to be his son's godmather. Usual political incest stuff.
    Says of Cameron "In her role as political adviser, one figure Miss Whetstone has helped promote is David Cameron, 37, the Conservative MP for Witney in Oxfordshire and a happily married father-of-two (with whom she is not involved romantically).
    Eton-educated Cameron, who is in charge of policy co-ordination for the party, is the stepson-in-law of Viscount Astor, 52, a former government whip and Opposition spokesman in the House of Lords." No potential future leader stuff.
    Somewhat amusingly followed by this about Boris
    "Three weeks before publication of his first novel, Seventy Two Virgins, preening Spectator editor and Tory MP Boris Johnson has uncharacteristically come over all modest.
    For I hear that at the last minute he has cut from the book, which is heavily autobiographical - the hero is a bicycle-riding MP - a number of sex scenes and details of an affair.
    Why could this be? According to publishing sources, twice married Boris was concerned that readers might take the louche behaviour in the novel too literally."

    Did manage to find a July 2004 Standard article that's along the lines you're talking about..
    https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/could-public-school-toff-be-future-leader-6959153.html
    "Virtually unknown outside the Westminster village, MPs such as David Cameron and George Osborne are hailed by their friends as the answer to New Labour's dominance"

    Again rather amusingly followed by a Boris take..
    "Mr Johnson goes down a storm at Tory conference fringes, but his Dulux dog fringe is the main image the public have of him. His appearances on Have I Got News For You have obscured his political talents.
    Labour MPs are delighted at the idea that he could ever be a contender for leader. "It would be a dream come true if Boris became Tory leader. The man is a joke," one minister said recently."

    But nothing else, and I've been through all 13 pages of hits on google for the 3 years..

    Am I looking in the wrong place?

    Probably. They were mostly oped pieces in the Times and the Telegraph. I don’t think they show up in public searches from that far back.

    Edit - the first time I ever heard David Cameron’s name was in 2002. It was in a piece written by I think Rachel Sylvester who was lamenting the fact Duncan Smith’s Shadow cabinet consisted mostly of old, white not very capable people. She suggested a need to promote younger talent, specifically ‘Boris Johnson and the less well known but equally impressive David Cameron, both of whom are potential future leaders.’

    I was intrigued enough by the comparison to do some fact finding, but thereafter it was interesting to note how often his name kept cropping up. His rise in 2005 came as no surprise to me.
    Times archive seems to be searchable. Found this from 2003 in a search for "David Davis"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-make-cherie-pay-for-shopping-spree-jxr7fkl8kxl
    And if I extend the search to include 2005, there are tons of stories from Times and Telegraph..
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/horror-as-cameron-brandishes-the-b-word-rfjm9v3xhsh
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1504993/You-were-the-future-once.html

    Is this the Rachel Sylvester article?

    "In his view his friend, David Cameron, with whom he cycles into work every day, is the solution. "At every election one party represents the past and another the future, David will represent the future," he says.
    Osborne and Cameron are often described as the Blair and Brown of the Tory party. The shadow chancellor, a relaxed optimist, is more like Mr Blair in character. But he decided that he was too young for the leadership."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1494588/The-future-belongs-to-us-predicts-Tory-partys-young-star.html

    From July 2005.

    And it doesn't sound to me like she's been writing the same for three years.
    Essentially, Labour needs a leader who embodies - who is a symbol - that it has changed. SKS was, but only in terms of his politics, not being Corbyn - but his having served alongside Corbyn that only takes the party so far. Otherwise, there’s very little change, being another white middle aged male from Labour North London.

    Generational change, change of gender or sexuality, geographical change, significant change in politics; pick and mix.
    A change to sanity after Corbyn and Macdonnell is fairly welcome, however.
    Not welcome enough it would seem
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,056

    andypetuk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: Matt Hancock helped former Tory minister secure £180m PPE contract

    Brooks Newmark, who resigned in sexts scandal, lobbied him on behalf of Chinese supplier

    He got "urgent" help and had contract signed in days


    W @GeorgeGreenwood @Direthoughts
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0ed3468a-b5aa-11eb-a803-dd7acc9bc346?shareToken=d1c8fcc1c13ec77442ac22c16b1decb8

    And goggles were delivered quickly, at fair price and after normal processes were followed, and no rules were broken.

    Some of these contracts look iffy - but this one really doesn't.
    I don't think Scott understands how business works.

    Now if we want to look at a scandal we can consider how dependent the NHS was on imports.

    Or perhaps we can consider how Cameron was trying, for personal gain, to get his sleazy friend Greensill into a totally unnecessary middle man role in NHS finances.
    Political sobriquets always come true.

    Never has 'Dodgy Dave' looked more dodgy.
    Shocking fall for a man who was going to clean up sleaze in politics.

    Can’t say I have any sympathy for him.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,599

    Are there any Starmer fans left on PB ?

    Mike Smithson ?
    CorrectHorseBattery ?

    Not that he had many to begin with.

    Though he clearly did among Labour members.

    So is there a disconnect between the PB lefties and the Labour membership ?

    Well the PB lefties seem to be scattered throughout the country whereas the Labour membership is London dominated.

    There's only a handful of PB lefties, aren't there? I think most of the Labour members here voted for Lisa Nandy, but accept that Starmer won so will give him another year.

    I'm hoping if he goes that Nandy would replace him. A Jacinda Ardern figure. Warm, bright, funny and northern, with the capacity to have broad appeal.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,111
    Scott_xP said:

    Yvette Cooper says that the lifting of holiday travel restrictions tomorrow should be cancelled

    She said we shouldn't be lifting restrictions at at time when there are so many new variants

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1393846968644997120

    A policy for Starmer. He's too weak to say it though. He should be calling for a full ban on incoming travel with everyone going into managed quarantine and hammering Boris on letting the Indian variant get into the country.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 2,981
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:



    Thought you were right, so wanted to wanted to find some 2002/3 stories with DaveC future leader mentions..

    I searched google for "David Cameron" from 1/1/2002 to 1/1/2004 and found an article he wrote in the Guardian about Macedonia and an Oxford Mail story about local MP visiting a school. (Also, don't think he was the 18yo student David Cameron who set fire to his friend dressed as a mummy in toilet paper https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/student-set-fire-paper-mummy-2491691 )

    Extending my search to 2004 there was this from August
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-314340/Love-Tory-Conservatives-golden-girl-married-man.html
    Which is a story about his stepfather-in-law having an affair with his boss's political secretary who happens to be his son's godmather. Usual political incest stuff.
    Says of Cameron "In her role as political adviser, one figure Miss Whetstone has helped promote is David Cameron, 37, the Conservative MP for Witney in Oxfordshire and a happily married father-of-two (with whom she is not involved romantically).
    Eton-educated Cameron, who is in charge of policy co-ordination for the party, is the stepson-in-law of Viscount Astor, 52, a former government whip and Opposition spokesman in the House of Lords." No potential future leader stuff.
    Somewhat amusingly followed by this about Boris
    "Three weeks before publication of his first novel, Seventy Two Virgins, preening Spectator editor and Tory MP Boris Johnson has uncharacteristically come over all modest.
    For I hear that at the last minute he has cut from the book, which is heavily autobiographical - the hero is a bicycle-riding MP - a number of sex scenes and details of an affair.
    Why could this be? According to publishing sources, twice married Boris was concerned that readers might take the louche behaviour in the novel too literally."

    Did manage to find a July 2004 Standard article that's along the lines you're talking about..
    https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/could-public-school-toff-be-future-leader-6959153.html
    "Virtually unknown outside the Westminster village, MPs such as David Cameron and George Osborne are hailed by their friends as the answer to New Labour's dominance"

    Again rather amusingly followed by a Boris take..
    "Mr Johnson goes down a storm at Tory conference fringes, but his Dulux dog fringe is the main image the public have of him. His appearances on Have I Got News For You have obscured his political talents.
    Labour MPs are delighted at the idea that he could ever be a contender for leader. "It would be a dream come true if Boris became Tory leader. The man is a joke," one minister said recently."

    But nothing else, and I've been through all 13 pages of hits on google for the 3 years..

    Am I looking in the wrong place?

    Probably. They were mostly oped pieces in the Times and the Telegraph. I don’t think they show up in public searches from that far back.

    Edit - the first time I ever heard David Cameron’s name was in 2002. It was in a piece written by I think Rachel Sylvester who was lamenting the fact Duncan Smith’s Shadow cabinet consisted mostly of old, white not very capable people. She suggested a need to promote younger talent, specifically ‘Boris Johnson and the less well known but equally impressive David Cameron, both of whom are potential future leaders.’

    I was intrigued enough by the comparison to do some fact finding, but thereafter it was interesting to note how often his name kept cropping up. His rise in 2005 came as no surprise to me.
    Times archive seems to be searchable. Found this from 2003 in a search for "David Davis"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-make-cherie-pay-for-shopping-spree-jxr7fkl8kxl
    And if I extend the search to include 2005, there are tons of stories from Times and Telegraph..
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/horror-as-cameron-brandishes-the-b-word-rfjm9v3xhsh
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1504993/You-were-the-future-once.html

    Is this the Rachel Sylvester article?

    "In his view his friend, David Cameron, with whom he cycles into work every day, is the solution. "At every election one party represents the past and another the future, David will represent the future," he says.
    Osborne and Cameron are often described as the Blair and Brown of the Tory party. The shadow chancellor, a relaxed optimist, is more like Mr Blair in character. But he decided that he was too young for the leadership."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1494588/The-future-belongs-to-us-predicts-Tory-partys-young-star.html

    From July 2005.

    And it doesn't sound to me like she's been writing the same for three years.
    Essentially, Labour needs a leader who embodies - who is a symbol - that it has changed. SKS was, but only in terms of his politics, not being Corbyn - but his having served alongside Corbyn that only takes the party so far. Otherwise, there’s very little change, being another white middle aged male from Labour North London.

    I genuinely don't think voters care about the identity politics stuff. If Starmer had articulated any realistic, memorable ideas for making the country a better place, it wouldn't matter where he comes from or what colour his skin is. But he hasn't, and hasn't even pretended to.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 45,117
    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yvette Cooper says that the lifting of holiday travel restrictions tomorrow should be cancelled

    She said we shouldn't be lifting restrictions at at time when there are so many new variants

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1393846968644997120

    A policy for Starmer. He's too weak to say it though. He should be calling for a full ban on incoming travel with everyone going into managed quarantine and hammering Boris on letting the Indian variant get into the country.
    It was interesting on Marr this morning that a member of Sage, when asked about the time delay re India, said it may have delayed it a little but it would not have stopped it

    I assume that a good number of those returning from India were UK residents, and it is simply not possible to stop them returning home
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,251
    edited May 16
    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yvette Cooper says that the lifting of holiday travel restrictions tomorrow should be cancelled

    She said we shouldn't be lifting restrictions at at time when there are so many new variants

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1393846968644997120

    A policy for Starmer. He's too weak to say it though. He should be calling for a full ban on incoming travel with everyone going into managed quarantine and hammering Boris on letting the Indian variant get into the country.
    Yes. I think the one mistake made repeatedly and unnecessarily throughout this crisis has been allowing widespread international travel. It’s total madness.

    All the other decisions that have been made - even many of the ones that have been wrong, e.g. the failure to cancel exams soon enough - there has at least been a logical explanation for them that can be seen as reasonable. But lack of quarantine? Just stupid. Starmer should hammer this morning, noon and night.

    Work beckons. Have a good morning.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,475
    Taz said:

    Metatron said:

    Is not Rachel Reeves a female version of Ed Milliband and given the type of people who joined the Labour Party to get Corbyn elected as leader she would be handicapped in a leadership contest.Both Angela Rayner and the Islamic female doctor whose name escapes me would beat Rachel in a leadership contest.

    Rosena Allin-Khan.

    She seems quietly capable. One to watch for sure.
    You cannot be serious.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,683

    Are there any Starmer fans left on PB ?

    Mike Smithson ?
    CorrectHorseBattery ?

    Not that he had many to begin with.

    Though he clearly did among Labour members.

    So is there a disconnect between the PB lefties and the Labour membership ?

    Well the PB lefties seem to be scattered throughout the country whereas the Labour membership is London dominated.

    There's only a handful of PB lefties, aren't there? I think most of the Labour members here voted for Lisa Nandy, but accept that Starmer won so will give him another year.

    I'm hoping if he goes that Nandy would replace him. A Jacinda Ardern figure. Warm, bright, funny and northern, with the capacity to have broad appeal.
    I would have voted for Nandy. Although I recall shortly after the election she did something that would have given me second thoughts, although I can’t remember what it was?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,678

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yvette Cooper says that the lifting of holiday travel restrictions tomorrow should be cancelled

    She said we shouldn't be lifting restrictions at at time when there are so many new variants

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1393846968644997120

    A policy for Starmer. He's too weak to say it though. He should be calling for a full ban on incoming travel with everyone going into managed quarantine and hammering Boris on letting the Indian variant get into the country.
    It was interesting on Marr this morning that a member of Sage, when asked about the time delay re India, said it may have delayed it a little but it would not have stopped it

    I assume that a good number of those returning from India were UK residents, and it is simply not possible to stop them returning home
    Australia has.

    What the government should have done in March 2020 was said that anyone who leaves this country does so at their own risk.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,683
    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:



    Thought you were right, so wanted to wanted to find some 2002/3 stories with DaveC future leader mentions..

    I searched google for "David Cameron" from 1/1/2002 to 1/1/2004 and found an article he wrote in the Guardian about Macedonia and an Oxford Mail story about local MP visiting a school. (Also, don't think he was the 18yo student David Cameron who set fire to his friend dressed as a mummy in toilet paper https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/student-set-fire-paper-mummy-2491691 )

    Extending my search to 2004 there was this from August
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-314340/Love-Tory-Conservatives-golden-girl-married-man.html
    Which is a story about his stepfather-in-law having an affair with his boss's political secretary who happens to be his son's godmather. Usual political incest stuff.
    Says of Cameron "In her role as political adviser, one figure Miss Whetstone has helped promote is David Cameron, 37, the Conservative MP for Witney in Oxfordshire and a happily married father-of-two (with whom she is not involved romantically).
    Eton-educated Cameron, who is in charge of policy co-ordination for the party, is the stepson-in-law of Viscount Astor, 52, a former government whip and Opposition spokesman in the House of Lords." No potential future leader stuff.
    Somewhat amusingly followed by this about Boris
    "Three weeks before publication of his first novel, Seventy Two Virgins, preening Spectator editor and Tory MP Boris Johnson has uncharacteristically come over all modest.
    For I hear that at the last minute he has cut from the book, which is heavily autobiographical - the hero is a bicycle-riding MP - a number of sex scenes and details of an affair.
    Why could this be? According to publishing sources, twice married Boris was concerned that readers might take the louche behaviour in the novel too literally."

    Did manage to find a July 2004 Standard article that's along the lines you're talking about..
    https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/could-public-school-toff-be-future-leader-6959153.html
    "Virtually unknown outside the Westminster village, MPs such as David Cameron and George Osborne are hailed by their friends as the answer to New Labour's dominance"

    Again rather amusingly followed by a Boris take..
    "Mr Johnson goes down a storm at Tory conference fringes, but his Dulux dog fringe is the main image the public have of him. His appearances on Have I Got News For You have obscured his political talents.
    Labour MPs are delighted at the idea that he could ever be a contender for leader. "It would be a dream come true if Boris became Tory leader. The man is a joke," one minister said recently."

    But nothing else, and I've been through all 13 pages of hits on google for the 3 years..

    Am I looking in the wrong place?

    Probably. They were mostly oped pieces in the Times and the Telegraph. I don’t think they show up in public searches from that far back.

    Edit - the first time I ever heard David Cameron’s name was in 2002. It was in a piece written by I think Rachel Sylvester who was lamenting the fact Duncan Smith’s Shadow cabinet consisted mostly of old, white not very capable people. She suggested a need to promote younger talent, specifically ‘Boris Johnson and the less well known but equally impressive David Cameron, both of whom are potential future leaders.’

    I was intrigued enough by the comparison to do some fact finding, but thereafter it was interesting to note how often his name kept cropping up. His rise in 2005 came as no surprise to me.
    Times archive seems to be searchable. Found this from 2003 in a search for "David Davis"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-make-cherie-pay-for-shopping-spree-jxr7fkl8kxl
    And if I extend the search to include 2005, there are tons of stories from Times and Telegraph..
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/horror-as-cameron-brandishes-the-b-word-rfjm9v3xhsh
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1504993/You-were-the-future-once.html

    Is this the Rachel Sylvester article?

    "In his view his friend, David Cameron, with whom he cycles into work every day, is the solution. "At every election one party represents the past and another the future, David will represent the future," he says.
    Osborne and Cameron are often described as the Blair and Brown of the Tory party. The shadow chancellor, a relaxed optimist, is more like Mr Blair in character. But he decided that he was too young for the leadership."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1494588/The-future-belongs-to-us-predicts-Tory-partys-young-star.html

    From July 2005.

    And it doesn't sound to me like she's been writing the same for three years.
    Essentially, Labour needs a leader who embodies - who is a symbol - that it has changed. SKS was, but only in terms of his politics, not being Corbyn - but his having served alongside Corbyn that only takes the party so far. Otherwise, there’s very little change, being another white middle aged male from Labour North London.

    I genuinely don't think voters care about the identity politics stuff. If Starmer had articulated any realistic, memorable ideas for making the country a better place, it wouldn't matter where he comes from or what colour his skin is. But he hasn't, and hasn't even pretended to.

    I was thinking about the leadership as a symbol of change (think Ruth in Scotland) rather than about identity politics per se.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 43,685
    Interesting piece. Is the Left sufficiently on the wane in Labour to allow the election of Reeves?

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 45,117
    Hancock on Marr

    18 in hospital in Bolton and most were eligible for the vaccine and have not had it

    5 in hospital having had one vaccination
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,592
    NEW: @MattHancock reveals

    - 18 people in hospital in Bolton with #coronavirus were eligible to get vaccinated but didn’t

    - 5 people have had one jab

    - 1 person had both jabs but is frail


    https://twitter.com/DarrenGBNews/status/1393850888591138818?s=20
  • borisatsunborisatsun Posts: 188
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:



    Thought you were right, so wanted to wanted to find some 2002/3 stories with DaveC future leader mentions..

    I searched google for "David Cameron" from 1/1/2002 to 1/1/2004 and found an article he wrote in the Guardian about Macedonia and an Oxford Mail story about local MP visiting a school. (Also, don't think he was the 18yo student David Cameron who set fire to his friend dressed as a mummy in toilet paper https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/student-set-fire-paper-mummy-2491691 )

    Extending my search to 2004 there was this from August
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-314340/Love-Tory-Conservatives-golden-girl-married-man.html
    Which is a story about his stepfather-in-law having an affair with his boss's political secretary who happens to be his son's godmather. Usual political incest stuff.
    Says of Cameron "In her role as political adviser, one figure Miss Whetstone has helped promote is David Cameron, 37, the Conservative MP for Witney in Oxfordshire and a happily married father-of-two (with whom she is not involved romantically).
    Eton-educated Cameron, who is in charge of policy co-ordination for the party, is the stepson-in-law of Viscount Astor, 52, a former government whip and Opposition spokesman in the House of Lords." No potential future leader stuff.
    Somewhat amusingly followed by this about Boris
    "Three weeks before publication of his first novel, Seventy Two Virgins, preening Spectator editor and Tory MP Boris Johnson has uncharacteristically come over all modest.
    For I hear that at the last minute he has cut from the book, which is heavily autobiographical - the hero is a bicycle-riding MP - a number of sex scenes and details of an affair.
    Why could this be? According to publishing sources, twice married Boris was concerned that readers might take the louche behaviour in the novel too literally."

    Did manage to find a July 2004 Standard article that's along the lines you're talking about..
    https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/could-public-school-toff-be-future-leader-6959153.html
    "Virtually unknown outside the Westminster village, MPs such as David Cameron and George Osborne are hailed by their friends as the answer to New Labour's dominance"

    Again rather amusingly followed by a Boris take..
    "Mr Johnson goes down a storm at Tory conference fringes, but his Dulux dog fringe is the main image the public have of him. His appearances on Have I Got News For You have obscured his political talents.
    Labour MPs are delighted at the idea that he could ever be a contender for leader. "It would be a dream come true if Boris became Tory leader. The man is a joke," one minister said recently."

    But nothing else, and I've been through all 13 pages of hits on google for the 3 years..

    Am I looking in the wrong place?

    Probably. They were mostly oped pieces in the Times and the Telegraph. I don’t think they show up in public searches from that far back.

    Edit - the first time I ever heard David Cameron’s name was in 2002. It was in a piece written by I think Rachel Sylvester who was lamenting the fact Duncan Smith’s Shadow cabinet consisted mostly of old, white not very capable people. She suggested a need to promote younger talent, specifically ‘Boris Johnson and the less well known but equally impressive David Cameron, both of whom are potential future leaders.’

    I was intrigued enough by the comparison to do some fact finding, but thereafter it was interesting to note how often his name kept cropping up. His rise in 2005 came as no surprise to me.
    Times archive seems to be searchable. Found this from 2003 in a search for "David Davis"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-make-cherie-pay-for-shopping-spree-jxr7fkl8kxl
    And if I extend the search to include 2005, there are tons of stories from Times and Telegraph..
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/horror-as-cameron-brandishes-the-b-word-rfjm9v3xhsh
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1504993/You-were-the-future-once.html

    Is this the Rachel Sylvester article?

    "In his view his friend, David Cameron, with whom he cycles into work every day, is the solution. "At every election one party represents the past and another the future, David will represent the future," he says.
    Osborne and Cameron are often described as the Blair and Brown of the Tory party. The shadow chancellor, a relaxed optimist, is more like Mr Blair in character. But he decided that he was too young for the leadership."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1494588/The-future-belongs-to-us-predicts-Tory-partys-young-star.html

    From July 2005.

    And it doesn't sound to me like she's been writing the same for three years.
    No. Much earlier than that.

    I remember being actually surprised Cameron went to Education rather than Home Affairs in 2005, but I gather it was the role he preferred. When the candidates were declared, I made a reputation as a Nostradamus by saying to all my friends that he could do very well, albeit I still expected Davis to win.
    Found this from Nov 2004
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1477634/Too-posh-to-be-Tory-young-pretenders.html

    By searching just Telegraph stuff (using site:telegraph.co.uk in the search) I can find their stories from 2000 to 2003. But nothing I can see about Cameron.
  • Scott_xP said:

    I used to know a member of the selection committee who gave Cameron a seat. He described him as the “worst sort”.

    Worse than the MP who defected?
    He despised him. A very upright and honest gentleman who expected everyone else to behave in a similar manner.

  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,965
    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yvette Cooper says that the lifting of holiday travel restrictions tomorrow should be cancelled

    She said we shouldn't be lifting restrictions at at time when there are so many new variants

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1393846968644997120

    A policy for Starmer. He's too weak to say it though. He should be calling for a full ban on incoming travel with everyone going into managed quarantine and hammering Boris on letting the Indian variant get into the country.
    And the Tories will respond -- correctly -- that if Labour want to do this, why are they not doing it in the one country that they actually govern ? Wales.

    Drakeford can close the Welsh-English border (most international visitors to Wales will fly to Bristol, Manchester, London).

    The border was closed earlier this year. If Labour believe this is important, why are they not doing it in Wales ?

    Restrictions on travel -- as we see on pb.com -- are only popular when they are imposed on other people.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,155

    Are there any Starmer fans left on PB ?

    Mike Smithson ?
    CorrectHorseBattery ?

    Not that he had many to begin with.

    Though he clearly did among Labour members.

    So is there a disconnect between the PB lefties and the Labour membership ?

    Well the PB lefties seem to be scattered throughout the country whereas the Labour membership is London dominated.

    I voted for Starmer, and as I said downthread I think he should be given a while longer to make a fair judgment.

    And the idea that Labour membership is concentrated in London has been debunked here before.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    In the same way that red wall voters aren’t going to automatically vote for Labour if their leader has a northern accent or flags in the background, they aren’t suddenly going to be drawn to Labour if their leader has an ex-military background. .

    Labour is not offering solutions to any of the issues or concerns voters have, that is their biggest problem. Voters are not dismissive of Labour because of Israel v Palestine, or because Starmer took the knee one time, but because they appear to be incompetent and out of ideas.

    No, but trying to be objective, those voters whose principal reason for not voting Labour is because they are too southern or Tory is because they are too white might at least given their party another look if it did have a leader that neutralised that concern. Which may not be many people but it is more than none.

    And symbols can be very important in political leadership in sending messages about wider changes.

    Cameron came from almost nowhere in a very short period, as I recall. The betting challenge is spotting Labour’s Cameron.
    Cameron was being tipped as a potential future leader from at least 2003 onwards, when he and George Osborne were Michael Howard’s PPS and were dubbed ‘the Tories’ Blair and Brown.’

    There isn’t any younger candidate in Labour who has that kind of buzz about them AFAICS.
    You're partly right but not wholly. Cameron was an outsider until 'that' speech to the party faithful in 2005. It was delivered without notes or a lectern and he paced the platform like an evangelical preacher. Until that moment he was trailing behind David Davis.

    The speech changed everything.

    It was a triumph.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2010/02/david-cameron-speech-leadership

    He was still being tipped in the press and the party as a potential future leader in 2003. It was admittedly generally thought that his time would be 2009/10 and not 2005 (albeit he had other ideas) but that doesn’t alter the conversations.

    Is there anyone in Labour who is currently being so tipped? I haven’t seen any names put forward in that way.
    This is revisionism I'm afraid.

    Cameron wasn't being widely tipped at all. I know this for a fact.

    Even in 2005 he was trailing in the race until that moment when he wowed the party faithful.

    Cameron was shadow education secretary, a minor role, and he was a shadow in more than one meaning of the word. There are plenty of similar shadows in the Labour party.

    It's always this way. The great leaders of the future seize the moment. It happened with Tony Blair who was NOT about to become leader until John Smith tragically dropped dead from a heart attack.
    I used to know a member of the selection committee who gave Cameron a seat. He described him as the “worst sort”. Spent pre-selection kissing all and sundrys arses and walked past them with his nose in the air once he had it. The story reminded me of the famous letter sent by an absentee MP for Southampton when they complained they never saw him.
    I have a friend who used to work for him as a SPAD who says much the same. About the only good thing he could find to say about Cameron was that he wasn’t Osborne.

    But equally, being a smarmy git is no hindrance in politics.
    Now that is funny!

    However for the smarmy gits when they tumble down there are ever so many waiting to put their size 10 hobnails right in their gonads.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,678

    NEW: @MattHancock reveals

    - 18 people in hospital in Bolton with #coronavirus were eligible to get vaccinated but didn’t

    - 5 people have had one jab

    - 1 person had both jabs but is frail


    https://twitter.com/DarrenGBNews/status/1393850888591138818?s=20

    It would be good to see that as proportions of each group.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,683

    Are there any Starmer fans left on PB ?

    Mike Smithson ?
    CorrectHorseBattery ?

    Not that he had many to begin with.

    Though he clearly did among Labour members.

    So is there a disconnect between the PB lefties and the Labour membership ?

    Well the PB lefties seem to be scattered throughout the country whereas the Labour membership is London dominated.

    I voted for Starmer, and as I said downthread I think he should be given a while longer to make a fair judgment.

    And the idea that Labour membership is concentrated in London has been debunked here before.
    AIUI Labour’s membership is heavily weighted towards London, but so is the other parties’?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,678

    Are there any Starmer fans left on PB ?

    Mike Smithson ?
    CorrectHorseBattery ?

    Not that he had many to begin with.

    Though he clearly did among Labour members.

    So is there a disconnect between the PB lefties and the Labour membership ?

    Well the PB lefties seem to be scattered throughout the country whereas the Labour membership is London dominated.

    I voted for Starmer, and as I said downthread I think he should be given a while longer to make a fair judgment.

    And the idea that Labour membership is concentrated in London has been debunked here before.
    Has it ? Do you have the actual data ?

    I've read here that half of Labour members are London based.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,475

    Are there any Starmer fans left on PB ?

    Mike Smithson ?
    CorrectHorseBattery ?

    Not that he had many to begin with.

    Though he clearly did among Labour members.

    So is there a disconnect between the PB lefties and the Labour membership ?

    Well the PB lefties seem to be scattered throughout the country whereas the Labour membership is London dominated.

    I voted for Starmer, and as I said downthread I think he should be given a while longer to make a fair judgment.

    And the idea that Labour membership is concentrated in London has been debunked here before.
    Why would you vote for Starmer who is far removed from your type of Labour Party?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,599

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yvette Cooper says that the lifting of holiday travel restrictions tomorrow should be cancelled

    She said we shouldn't be lifting restrictions at at time when there are so many new variants

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1393846968644997120

    A policy for Starmer. He's too weak to say it though. He should be calling for a full ban on incoming travel with everyone going into managed quarantine and hammering Boris on letting the Indian variant get into the country.
    It was interesting on Marr this morning that a member of Sage, when asked about the time delay re India, said it may have delayed it a little but it would not have stopped it

    I assume that a good number of those returning from India were UK residents, and it is simply not possible to stop them returning home
    Maybe not, but it should be possible to ensure that UK residents returning from India quarantine and do not mix with anybody for 10/14 days or whatever it is. This doesn't seem to be happening.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 2,981
    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:



    Thought you were right, so wanted to wanted to find some 2002/3 stories with DaveC future leader mentions..

    I searched google for "David Cameron" from 1/1/2002 to 1/1/2004 and found an article he wrote in the Guardian about Macedonia and an Oxford Mail story about local MP visiting a school. (Also, don't think he was the 18yo student David Cameron who set fire to his friend dressed as a mummy in toilet paper https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/student-set-fire-paper-mummy-2491691 )

    Extending my search to 2004 there was this from August
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-314340/Love-Tory-Conservatives-golden-girl-married-man.html
    Which is a story about his stepfather-in-law having an affair with his boss's political secretary who happens to be his son's godmather. Usual political incest stuff.
    Says of Cameron "In her role as political adviser, one figure Miss Whetstone has helped promote is David Cameron, 37, the Conservative MP for Witney in Oxfordshire and a happily married father-of-two (with whom she is not involved romantically).
    Eton-educated Cameron, who is in charge of policy co-ordination for the party, is the stepson-in-law of Viscount Astor, 52, a former government whip and Opposition spokesman in the House of Lords." No potential future leader stuff.
    Somewhat amusingly followed by this about Boris
    "Three weeks before publication of his first novel, Seventy Two Virgins, preening Spectator editor and Tory MP Boris Johnson has uncharacteristically come over all modest.
    For I hear that at the last minute he has cut from the book, which is heavily autobiographical - the hero is a bicycle-riding MP - a number of sex scenes and details of an affair.
    Why could this be? According to publishing sources, twice married Boris was concerned that readers might take the louche behaviour in the novel too literally."

    Did manage to find a July 2004 Standard article that's along the lines you're talking about..
    https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/could-public-school-toff-be-future-leader-6959153.html
    "Virtually unknown outside the Westminster village, MPs such as David Cameron and George Osborne are hailed by their friends as the answer to New Labour's dominance"

    Again rather amusingly followed by a Boris take..
    "Mr Johnson goes down a storm at Tory conference fringes, but his Dulux dog fringe is the main image the public have of him. His appearances on Have I Got News For You have obscured his political talents.
    Labour MPs are delighted at the idea that he could ever be a contender for leader. "It would be a dream come true if Boris became Tory leader. The man is a joke," one minister said recently."

    But nothing else, and I've been through all 13 pages of hits on google for the 3 years..

    Am I looking in the wrong place?

    Probably. They were mostly oped pieces in the Times and the Telegraph. I don’t think they show up in public searches from that far back.

    Edit - the first time I ever heard David Cameron’s name was in 2002. It was in a piece written by I think Rachel Sylvester who was lamenting the fact Duncan Smith’s Shadow cabinet consisted mostly of old, white not very capable people. She suggested a need to promote younger talent, specifically ‘Boris Johnson and the less well known but equally impressive David Cameron, both of whom are potential future leaders.’

    I was intrigued enough by the comparison to do some fact finding, but thereafter it was interesting to note how often his name kept cropping up. His rise in 2005 came as no surprise to me.
    Times archive seems to be searchable. Found this from 2003 in a search for "David Davis"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-make-cherie-pay-for-shopping-spree-jxr7fkl8kxl
    And if I extend the search to include 2005, there are tons of stories from Times and Telegraph..
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/horror-as-cameron-brandishes-the-b-word-rfjm9v3xhsh
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1504993/You-were-the-future-once.html

    Is this the Rachel Sylvester article?

    "In his view his friend, David Cameron, with whom he cycles into work every day, is the solution. "At every election one party represents the past and another the future, David will represent the future," he says.
    Osborne and Cameron are often described as the Blair and Brown of the Tory party. The shadow chancellor, a relaxed optimist, is more like Mr Blair in character. But he decided that he was too young for the leadership."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1494588/The-future-belongs-to-us-predicts-Tory-partys-young-star.html

    From July 2005.

    And it doesn't sound to me like she's been writing the same for three years.
    Essentially, Labour needs a leader who embodies - who is a symbol - that it has changed. SKS was, but only in terms of his politics, not being Corbyn - but his having served alongside Corbyn that only takes the party so far. Otherwise, there’s very little change, being another white middle aged male from Labour North London.

    I genuinely don't think voters care about the identity politics stuff. If Starmer had articulated any realistic, memorable ideas for making the country a better place, it wouldn't matter where he comes from or what colour his skin is. But he hasn't, and hasn't even pretended to.

    I was thinking about the leadership as a symbol of change (think Ruth in Scotland) rather than about identity politics per se.
    I think Ruth was popular because of her personality, in particular because of her optimism and lack of pomposity, not because of her identity.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,111

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yvette Cooper says that the lifting of holiday travel restrictions tomorrow should be cancelled

    She said we shouldn't be lifting restrictions at at time when there are so many new variants

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1393846968644997120

    A policy for Starmer. He's too weak to say it though. He should be calling for a full ban on incoming travel with everyone going into managed quarantine and hammering Boris on letting the Indian variant get into the country.
    It was interesting on Marr this morning that a member of Sage, when asked about the time delay re India, said it may have delayed it a little but it would not have stopped it

    I assume that a good number of those returning from India were UK residents, and it is simply not possible to stop them returning home
    No one is saying we should stop them from returning, we need to put everyone into the 14 day hotel quarantine.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,854
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yvette Cooper says that the lifting of holiday travel restrictions tomorrow should be cancelled

    She said we shouldn't be lifting restrictions at at time when there are so many new variants

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1393846968644997120

    A policy for Starmer. He's too weak to say it though. He should be calling for a full ban on incoming travel with everyone going into managed quarantine and hammering Boris on letting the Indian variant get into the country.
    It was interesting on Marr this morning that a member of Sage, when asked about the time delay re India, said it may have delayed it a little but it would not have stopped it

    I assume that a good number of those returning from India were UK residents, and it is simply not possible to stop them returning home
    No one is saying we should stop them from returning, we need to put everyone into the 14 day hotel quarantine.
    Yes. This isn't complicated. We're not refusing entry to British citizens. We're merely minimizing the risk of importing additional cases.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,482
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yvette Cooper says that the lifting of holiday travel restrictions tomorrow should be cancelled

    She said we shouldn't be lifting restrictions at at time when there are so many new variants

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1393846968644997120

    A policy for Starmer. He's too weak to say it though. He should be calling for a full ban on incoming travel with everyone going into managed quarantine and hammering Boris on letting the Indian variant get into the country.
    It was interesting on Marr this morning that a member of Sage, when asked about the time delay re India, said it may have delayed it a little but it would not have stopped it

    I assume that a good number of those returning from India were UK residents, and it is simply not possible to stop them returning home
    No one is saying we should stop them from returning, we need to put everyone into the 14 day hotel quarantine.
    Thailand, for example, had few problems until refugees from chaotic Myanmar started coming across the border in numbers.
    Until then all arrivals were quarantined. End of.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,854

    Are there any Starmer fans left on PB ?

    Mike Smithson ?
    CorrectHorseBattery ?

    Not that he had many to begin with.

    Though he clearly did among Labour members.

    So is there a disconnect between the PB lefties and the Labour membership ?

    Well the PB lefties seem to be scattered throughout the country whereas the Labour membership is London dominated.

    Starmer was the best option available to the Labour Party in 2020.

    But, in many ways, it was a little like asking so... what's your favourite STD?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 2,981

    Are there any Starmer fans left on PB ?

    Mike Smithson ?
    CorrectHorseBattery ?

    Not that he had many to begin with.

    Though he clearly did among Labour members.

    So is there a disconnect between the PB lefties and the Labour membership ?

    Well the PB lefties seem to be scattered throughout the country whereas the Labour membership is London dominated.

    I voted for Starmer, and as I said downthread I think he should be given a while longer to make a fair judgment.

    And the idea that Labour membership is concentrated in London has been debunked here before.
    Why would you vote for Starmer who is far removed from your type of Labour Party?
    I can't speak for Nick, but most Labour members I know supported him becase they thought he was a heavyweight winner.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,683
    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:



    Thought you were right, so wanted to wanted to find some 2002/3 stories with DaveC future leader mentions..

    I searched google for "David Cameron" from 1/1/2002 to 1/1/2004 and found an article he wrote in the Guardian about Macedonia and an Oxford Mail story about local MP visiting a school. (Also, don't think he was the 18yo student David Cameron who set fire to his friend dressed as a mummy in toilet paper https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/student-set-fire-paper-mummy-2491691 )

    Extending my search to 2004 there was this from August
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-314340/Love-Tory-Conservatives-golden-girl-married-man.html
    Which is a story about his stepfather-in-law having an affair with his boss's political secretary who happens to be his son's godmather. Usual political incest stuff.
    Says of Cameron "In her role as political adviser, one figure Miss Whetstone has helped promote is David Cameron, 37, the Conservative MP for Witney in Oxfordshire and a happily married father-of-two (with whom she is not involved romantically).
    Eton-educated Cameron, who is in charge of policy co-ordination for the party, is the stepson-in-law of Viscount Astor, 52, a former government whip and Opposition spokesman in the House of Lords." No potential future leader stuff.
    Somewhat amusingly followed by this about Boris
    "Three weeks before publication of his first novel, Seventy Two Virgins, preening Spectator editor and Tory MP Boris Johnson has uncharacteristically come over all modest.
    For I hear that at the last minute he has cut from the book, which is heavily autobiographical - the hero is a bicycle-riding MP - a number of sex scenes and details of an affair.
    Why could this be? According to publishing sources, twice married Boris was concerned that readers might take the louche behaviour in the novel too literally."

    Did manage to find a July 2004 Standard article that's along the lines you're talking about..
    https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/could-public-school-toff-be-future-leader-6959153.html
    "Virtually unknown outside the Westminster village, MPs such as David Cameron and George Osborne are hailed by their friends as the answer to New Labour's dominance"

    Again rather amusingly followed by a Boris take..
    "Mr Johnson goes down a storm at Tory conference fringes, but his Dulux dog fringe is the main image the public have of him. His appearances on Have I Got News For You have obscured his political talents.
    Labour MPs are delighted at the idea that he could ever be a contender for leader. "It would be a dream come true if Boris became Tory leader. The man is a joke," one minister said recently."

    But nothing else, and I've been through all 13 pages of hits on google for the 3 years..

    Am I looking in the wrong place?

    Probably. They were mostly oped pieces in the Times and the Telegraph. I don’t think they show up in public searches from that far back.

    Edit - the first time I ever heard David Cameron’s name was in 2002. It was in a piece written by I think Rachel Sylvester who was lamenting the fact Duncan Smith’s Shadow cabinet consisted mostly of old, white not very capable people. She suggested a need to promote younger talent, specifically ‘Boris Johnson and the less well known but equally impressive David Cameron, both of whom are potential future leaders.’

    I was intrigued enough by the comparison to do some fact finding, but thereafter it was interesting to note how often his name kept cropping up. His rise in 2005 came as no surprise to me.
    Times archive seems to be searchable. Found this from 2003 in a search for "David Davis"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-make-cherie-pay-for-shopping-spree-jxr7fkl8kxl
    And if I extend the search to include 2005, there are tons of stories from Times and Telegraph..
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/horror-as-cameron-brandishes-the-b-word-rfjm9v3xhsh
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1504993/You-were-the-future-once.html

    Is this the Rachel Sylvester article?

    "In his view his friend, David Cameron, with whom he cycles into work every day, is the solution. "At every election one party represents the past and another the future, David will represent the future," he says.
    Osborne and Cameron are often described as the Blair and Brown of the Tory party. The shadow chancellor, a relaxed optimist, is more like Mr Blair in character. But he decided that he was too young for the leadership."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1494588/The-future-belongs-to-us-predicts-Tory-partys-young-star.html

    From July 2005.

    And it doesn't sound to me like she's been writing the same for three years.
    Essentially, Labour needs a leader who embodies - who is a symbol - that it has changed. SKS was, but only in terms of his politics, not being Corbyn - but his having served alongside Corbyn that only takes the party so far. Otherwise, there’s very little change, being another white middle aged male from Labour North London.

    I genuinely don't think voters care about the identity politics stuff. If Starmer had articulated any realistic, memorable ideas for making the country a better place, it wouldn't matter where he comes from or what colour his skin is. But he hasn't, and hasn't even pretended to.

    I was thinking about the leadership as a symbol of change (think Ruth in Scotland) rather than about identity politics per se.
    I think Ruth was popular because of her personality, in particular because of her optimism and lack of pomposity, not because of her identity.
    I think that is missing the impact that the Scottish Tories were led by an out lesbian, and that they had chosen her, had in itself. As a symbol that it was no longer the ‘old’ staid Scottish Party, rather than anything to do with identity politics in itself.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,111

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yvette Cooper says that the lifting of holiday travel restrictions tomorrow should be cancelled

    She said we shouldn't be lifting restrictions at at time when there are so many new variants

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1393846968644997120

    A policy for Starmer. He's too weak to say it though. He should be calling for a full ban on incoming travel with everyone going into managed quarantine and hammering Boris on letting the Indian variant get into the country.
    It was interesting on Marr this morning that a member of Sage, when asked about the time delay re India, said it may have delayed it a little but it would not have stopped it

    I assume that a good number of those returning from India were UK residents, and it is simply not possible to stop them returning home
    Maybe not, but it should be possible to ensure that UK residents returning from India quarantine and do not mix with anybody for 10/14 days or whatever it is. This doesn't seem to be happening.
    Exactly, we should put in 14 day quarantine for all arrivals regardless of where they are coming in from. As vaccine programmes advance we can selectively ease that and build in exemptions for vaccinated people who test negative on arrival with a PCR test with a follow up test 5 days later etc...

    This was, once again, a completely avoidable problem. The second wave was also completely avoidable. We let the virus back into the country after defeating it in June/July. We have done so again after 5 months of long, hard lockdown. All of that work may now be undone because the government just can't find the cojones to close the border once and for all until other countries catch up with our vaccination rates.
  • borisatsunborisatsun Posts: 188
    Interview with Rosena Allin Khan from 2015, at her boxing gym.

    https://www.joe.co.uk/outside-westminster/rosena-allin-khan-interview-209738

    Not sure how good a party leader she'd be.

    But she'd beat the living crap out of Sir Keir in a fist fight.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,475
    Fishing said:

    Are there any Starmer fans left on PB ?

    Mike Smithson ?
    CorrectHorseBattery ?

    Not that he had many to begin with.

    Though he clearly did among Labour members.

    So is there a disconnect between the PB lefties and the Labour membership ?

    Well the PB lefties seem to be scattered throughout the country whereas the Labour membership is London dominated.

    I voted for Starmer, and as I said downthread I think he should be given a while longer to make a fair judgment.

    And the idea that Labour membership is concentrated in London has been debunked here before.
    Why would you vote for Starmer who is far removed from your type of Labour Party?
    I can't speak for Nick, but most Labour members I know supported him becase they thought he was a heavyweight winner.
    Amazing...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    edited May 16

    Hancock on Marr

    18 in hospital in Bolton and most were eligible for the vaccine and have not had it

    5 in hospital having had one vaccination

    Question is of the 5 with one jab, how long after having been vaccinated did they catch covid. Seems to me, a bit like the death after having COVID months before, less than 3 weeks, we really shouldn't be counting them as vaccinated in any way.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,258

    Scott_xP said:

    "British silversmiths struggling to sell in EU after Brexit deal failed to recognise UK's hallmarks"

    Things forgotten by the Tories in their obscene haste to get a deal any deal, number 577.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/15/british-silversmiths-struggling-sell-eu-brexit-deal-failed-recognise/

    It must therefore work both ways.
    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/hallmarking-requirements-and-the-eu
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,599
    IanB2 said:

    Are there any Starmer fans left on PB ?

    Mike Smithson ?
    CorrectHorseBattery ?

    Not that he had many to begin with.

    Though he clearly did among Labour members.

    So is there a disconnect between the PB lefties and the Labour membership ?

    Well the PB lefties seem to be scattered throughout the country whereas the Labour membership is London dominated.

    There's only a handful of PB lefties, aren't there? I think most of the Labour members here voted for Lisa Nandy, but accept that Starmer won so will give him another year.

    I'm hoping if he goes that Nandy would replace him. A Jacinda Ardern figure. Warm, bright, funny and northern, with the capacity to have broad appeal.
    I would have voted for Nandy. Although I recall shortly after the election she did something that would have given me second thoughts, although I can’t remember what it was?
    Not sure, but might have been something on the trans debate leading to accusations of excessive wokeness.

    It's also worth noting that Nandy was strongly opposed to a second Brexit referendum, and was one of the handful of Labour MPs on the Get Brexit Done side, even though she voted to remain. Respect the will of the people etc.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,548
    edited May 16


    There's only a handful of PB lefties, aren't there? I think most of the Labour members here voted for Lisa Nandy, but accept that Starmer won so will give him another year.

    That's my exact take.

    Electorally I think he's doing as well as could be expected. I think they could use a bit more feistiness (which is why I voted for Nandy) and I thought he was way too timid in responding to the government bollocksing up the early rona response, but since they then proceeded to make a success of the vaccine roll-out I doubt if that would have made much difference.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,513
    algarkirk said:

    I admire Burnham and think he would be a very decent leader, though it isn't going to happen. However it would be a huge mistake to think that because you are very popular in Liverpool/Manchester that this translates to the rest of the north, let alone the rest of the country. The big divides now include very urban v smaller towns and rural.

    Everyone knows that London is one country and the south east quite another (look at polling figures, which are startling). The north is the same.

    The Greater Manchester red wall seats are not really that different to the Teesside and Wearside red wall seats really, and Burnham is a net positive for Labour in these kind of seats, as I believe various posters have shown over the last week or two.

    But I think you're right overall.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,683

    Are there any Starmer fans left on PB ?

    Mike Smithson ?
    CorrectHorseBattery ?

    Not that he had many to begin with.

    Though he clearly did among Labour members.

    So is there a disconnect between the PB lefties and the Labour membership ?

    Well the PB lefties seem to be scattered throughout the country whereas the Labour membership is London dominated.

    I voted for Starmer, and as I said downthread I think he should be given a while longer to make a fair judgment.

    And the idea that Labour membership is concentrated in London has been debunked here before.
    Why would you vote for Starmer who is far removed from your type of Labour Party?
    Nick is probably regretting not voting for our Angela.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,513

    R

    O

    S

    E

    N

    A

    I like her, but I'm a bleeding heart metropolitan liberal city boy. Does she have any appeal to the red wall?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,258

    So who is the answer to this?

    'in my lifetime there’s been only one politician who has been politically bullet proof when it comes to the NHS'

    I notice that TSE is tease minus a couple of vowels.

    Probably David Cameron because of his late son, Ivan.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,837
    rcs1000 said:

    Starmer was the best option available to the Labour Party in 2020.

    But, in many ways, it was a little like asking so... what's your favourite STD?

    Or your favourite Radiohead album...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,837
    Matt Hancock: “This data is the wrong way of looking at it.”
    🧐 https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1393852883079151623/photo/1
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,111
    Also, I still don't think the Indian variant is going to be an issue. We've advanced our vaccine programme to a stage where there just won't be the same level of hospitalisations that there would have been had this hit us like the Kent one in November when there was no vaccine.

    I honestly wouldn't be surprised if all AZ two dose people are offered a third Pfizer jab in the summer once the initial programme is finished just to be sure that people are fully protected against variants as the Pfizer vaccine seems to have better variant fighting without needing a reformulation.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,678

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yvette Cooper says that the lifting of holiday travel restrictions tomorrow should be cancelled

    She said we shouldn't be lifting restrictions at at time when there are so many new variants

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1393846968644997120

    A policy for Starmer. He's too weak to say it though. He should be calling for a full ban on incoming travel with everyone going into managed quarantine and hammering Boris on letting the Indian variant get into the country.
    It was interesting on Marr this morning that a member of Sage, when asked about the time delay re India, said it may have delayed it a little but it would not have stopped it

    I assume that a good number of those returning from India were UK residents, and it is simply not possible to stop them returning home
    Maybe not, but it should be possible to ensure that UK residents returning from India quarantine and do not mix with anybody for 10/14 days or whatever it is. This doesn't seem to be happening.
    The idea of home quarantine was highly dubious at the best of times.

    But reached another level of risk when applied to communities with high density, multi-generational homes.

    Not to mention that people willing to travel during a global pandemic were already the people most likely to risk getting infected and to risk infecting others subsequently.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Starmer was the best option available to the Labour Party in 2020.

    But, in many ways, it was a little like asking so... what's your favourite STD?

    Or your favourite Radiohead album...
    The droning noise produced by Starmer and Tom Yorke aren't dissimilar....
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 811

    Scott_xP said:

    "British silversmiths struggling to sell in EU after Brexit deal failed to recognise UK's hallmarks"

    Things forgotten by the Tories in their obscene haste to get a deal any deal, number 577.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/15/british-silversmiths-struggling-sell-eu-brexit-deal-failed-recognise/

    It must therefore work both ways.
    So the plan is to bankrupt UK antique silver dealers in order to punish the EU for the incompetence of the UK negotiation?

    :weary: Yeah that´ll work
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,475
    IanB2 said:

    Are there any Starmer fans left on PB ?

    Mike Smithson ?
    CorrectHorseBattery ?

    Not that he had many to begin with.

    Though he clearly did among Labour members.

    So is there a disconnect between the PB lefties and the Labour membership ?

    Well the PB lefties seem to be scattered throughout the country whereas the Labour membership is London dominated.

    I voted for Starmer, and as I said downthread I think he should be given a while longer to make a fair judgment.

    And the idea that Labour membership is concentrated in London has been debunked here before.
    Why would you vote for Starmer who is far removed from your type of Labour Party?
    Nick is probably regretting not voting for our Angela.
    Huge LOL.. BTW its absolutely chucking it down here in W Sussex
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 14,613
    edited May 16
    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:



    Thought you were right, so wanted to wanted to find some 2002/3 stories with DaveC future leader mentions..

    I searched google for "David Cameron" from 1/1/2002 to 1/1/2004 and found an article he wrote in the Guardian about Macedonia and an Oxford Mail story about local MP visiting a school. (Also, don't think he was the 18yo student David Cameron who set fire to his friend dressed as a mummy in toilet paper https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/student-set-fire-paper-mummy-2491691 )

    Extending my search to 2004 there was this from August
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-314340/Love-Tory-Conservatives-golden-girl-married-man.html
    Which is a story about his stepfather-in-law having an affair with his boss's political secretary who happens to be his son's godmather. Usual political incest stuff.
    Says of Cameron "In her role as political adviser, one figure Miss Whetstone has helped promote is David Cameron, 37, the Conservative MP for Witney in Oxfordshire and a happily married father-of-two (with whom she is not involved romantically).
    Eton-educated Cameron, who is in charge of policy co-ordination for the party, is the stepson-in-law of Viscount Astor, 52, a former government whip and Opposition spokesman in the House of Lords." No potential future leader stuff.
    Somewhat amusingly followed by this about Boris
    "Three weeks before publication of his first novel, Seventy Two Virgins, preening Spectator editor and Tory MP Boris Johnson has uncharacteristically come over all modest.
    For I hear that at the last minute he has cut from the book, which is heavily autobiographical - the hero is a bicycle-riding MP - a number of sex scenes and details of an affair.
    Why could this be? According to publishing sources, twice married Boris was concerned that readers might take the louche behaviour in the novel too literally."

    Did manage to find a July 2004 Standard article that's along the lines you're talking about..
    https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/could-public-school-toff-be-future-leader-6959153.html
    "Virtually unknown outside the Westminster village, MPs such as David Cameron and George Osborne are hailed by their friends as the answer to New Labour's dominance"

    Again rather amusingly followed by a Boris take..
    "Mr Johnson goes down a storm at Tory conference fringes, but his Dulux dog fringe is the main image the public have of him. His appearances on Have I Got News For You have obscured his political talents.
    Labour MPs are delighted at the idea that he could ever be a contender for leader. "It would be a dream come true if Boris became Tory leader. The man is a joke," one minister said recently."

    But nothing else, and I've been through all 13 pages of hits on google for the 3 years..

    Am I looking in the wrong place?

    Probably. They were mostly oped pieces in the Times and the Telegraph. I don’t think they show up in public searches from that far back.

    Edit - the first time I ever heard David Cameron’s name was in 2002. It was in a piece written by I think Rachel Sylvester who was lamenting the fact Duncan Smith’s Shadow cabinet consisted mostly of old, white not very capable people. She suggested a need to promote younger talent, specifically ‘Boris Johnson and the less well known but equally impressive David Cameron, both of whom are potential future leaders.’

    I was intrigued enough by the comparison to do some fact finding, but thereafter it was interesting to note how often his name kept cropping up. His rise in 2005 came as no surprise to me.
    Times archive seems to be searchable. Found this from 2003 in a search for "David Davis"
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-make-cherie-pay-for-shopping-spree-jxr7fkl8kxl
    And if I extend the search to include 2005, there are tons of stories from Times and Telegraph..
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/horror-as-cameron-brandishes-the-b-word-rfjm9v3xhsh
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1504993/You-were-the-future-once.html

    Is this the Rachel Sylvester article?

    "In his view his friend, David Cameron, with whom he cycles into work every day, is the solution. "At every election one party represents the past and another the future, David will represent the future," he says.
    Osborne and Cameron are often described as the Blair and Brown of the Tory party. The shadow chancellor, a relaxed optimist, is more like Mr Blair in character. But he decided that he was too young for the leadership."
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1494588/The-future-belongs-to-us-predicts-Tory-partys-young-star.html

    From July 2005.

    And it doesn't sound to me like she's been writing the same for three years.
    Essentially, Labour needs a leader who embodies - who is a symbol - that it has changed. SKS was, but only in terms of his politics, not being Corbyn - but his having served alongside Corbyn that only takes the party so far. Otherwise, there’s very little change, being another white middle aged male from Labour North London.

    I genuinely don't think voters care about the identity politics stuff. If Starmer had articulated any realistic, memorable ideas for making the country a better place, it wouldn't matter where he comes from or what colour his skin is. But he hasn't, and hasn't even pretended to.

    I was thinking about the leadership as a symbol of change (think Ruth in Scotland) rather than about identity politics per se.
    I think Ruth was popular because of her personality, in particular because of her optimism and lack of pomposity, not because of her identity.
    I think that is missing the impact that the Scottish Tories were led by an out lesbian, and that they had chosen her, had in itself. As a symbol that it was no longer the ‘old’ staid Scottish Party, rather than anything to do with identity politics in itself.
    I don't think her personal life was so much the point as that she was/is- like Mr Johnson - an experienced journalist and it showed for instance in her [edit] emphasis, compared to her predecessors, on photo opportunities (very like him). She also reorganised the Scottish party in her image to some extent, lots of young people in suits rather than older ones in tweeds.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,691
    For me, SKS's future really turns on Batley & Spens. If Labour hold on there then he will probably not only get Nick's additional year, he will very likely lead Labour into the next election. But it's hard to see him survive another byelection defeat.

    At the moment the Tories are favourites in that seat. I think it's a much, much tougher nut to crack than Hartlepool but the odds are marginally in favour of there being a Labour leadership contest this year at the moment. The field is uninspiring at best which is presumably why people are looking at people who will not even be eligible like the King of the North.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 14,613

    IanB2 said:

    Are there any Starmer fans left on PB ?

    Mike Smithson ?
    CorrectHorseBattery ?

    Not that he had many to begin with.

    Though he clearly did among Labour members.

    So is there a disconnect between the PB lefties and the Labour membership ?

    Well the PB lefties seem to be scattered throughout the country whereas the Labour membership is London dominated.

    I voted for Starmer, and as I said downthread I think he should be given a while longer to make a fair judgment.

    And the idea that Labour membership is concentrated in London has been debunked here before.
    Why would you vote for Starmer who is far removed from your type of Labour Party?
    Nick is probably regretting not voting for our Angela.
    Huge LOL.. BTW its absolutely chucking it down here in W Sussex
    Blue sky, sun and white puffy clouds in SE Scotland here. But light rain after lunch.
  • andypetukandypetuk Posts: 53
    Stocky said:

    Good morning.

    Good header TSE. Agree completely.

    As I've posted before, I backed Reeves at 50/1 four weeks ago and 25/1 a week ago - and again today at 22/1 with Bet365.

    The other market I've been considering in the Year of Next General Election. With the FTPA out of the way can anyone explain why 2024 is such a strong favourite over 2023?

    2023 is possible, but 2024 seems far more likely.

    Assuming that Johnson would not want another December election, any date in 2023 will mean less than four years. This will be attacked as opportunistic.

    The repeal of FTPA gives flexibility for any date in 2024. This would be in the fifth year of the term and difficult to argue against in the same way.

    If the polls were looking very favourable, 2023 would be tempting - but even then spring 2024 feels more likely.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,617

    Hancock on Marr

    18 in hospital in Bolton and most were eligible for the vaccine and have not had it

    5 in hospital having had one vaccination

    Question is of the 5 with one jab, how long after having been vaccinated did they catch covid. Seems to me, a bit like the death after having COVID months before, less than 3 weeks, we really shouldn't be counting them as vaccinated in any way.
    Why is this government so incapable of communicating clear detail? Yesterday it was “a majority” in hospital had not been vaccinated. Today as you point out, there’s crucial info missing from the statement.

    And why is the supposed preeminent political interviewer of the age incapable of thinking of these follow up questions?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,513
    edited May 16
    Stocky said:

    Good morning.

    Good header TSE. Agree completely.

    As I've posted before, I backed Reeves at 50/1 four weeks ago and 25/1 a week ago - and again today at 22/1 with Bet365.

    The other market I've been considering in the Year of Next General Election. With the FTPA out of the way can anyone explain why 2024 is such a strong favourite over 2023?

    The FTPA is a non-consideration considering the government can hold an election whenever they want, regardless of whether it is still in force.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 10,389

    NEW: @MattHancock reveals

    - 18 people in hospital in Bolton with #coronavirus were eligible to get vaccinated but didn’t

    - 5 people have had one jab

    - 1 person had both jabs but is frail


    https://twitter.com/DarrenGBNews/status/1393850888591138818?s=20

    The Power of Small Numbers.

    I’m not a professional mathematician but my amateur back of a fag packet statistics tells me that based on those numbers the chances of the Indian variant being vaccine resistant are vanishingly low.

    Hancock in chipper mood on the telly this morning. Sophy Ridge uncharacteristically annoying and (deliberately?) innumerate. I had to turn her off!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643

    NEW: @MattHancock reveals

    - 18 people in hospital in Bolton with #coronavirus were eligible to get vaccinated but didn’t

    - 5 people have had one jab

    - 1 person had both jabs but is frail


    https://twitter.com/DarrenGBNews/status/1393850888591138818?s=20

    The Power of Small Numbers.

    I’m not a professional mathematician but my amateur back of a fag packet statistics tells me that based on those numbers the chances of the Indian variant being vaccine resistant are vanishingly low.

    Hancock in chipper mood on the telly this morning. Sophy Ridge uncharacteristically annoying and (deliberately?) innumerate. I had to turn her off!
    Media, innumerate, say it ain't so....
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 10,389
    MaxPB said:

    Also, I still don't think the Indian variant is going to be an issue. We've advanced our vaccine programme to a stage where there just won't be the same level of hospitalisations that there would have been had this hit us like the Kent one in November when there was no vaccine.

    I honestly wouldn't be surprised if all AZ two dose people are offered a third Pfizer jab in the summer once the initial programme is finished just to be sure that people are fully protected against variants as the Pfizer vaccine seems to have better variant fighting without needing a reformulation.

    Hancock is very chipper this morning. He’s seen the numbers on Indian efficacy and vaccine stocks and thinks we are all good. You may well be proved right yet again.
This discussion has been closed.