Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

One in nine of those younger than 25 on the YouGov panel don’t even know who Tony Blair was – politi

135678

Comments

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 14,782

    dixiedean said:

    Step 3 from MONDAY goes ahead.

    Vaccination gap for over 50 year olds cut to 8 weeks

    Crumbs. That means I'm due on Thursday.
    No details I assume.
    NHS will be contacting everybody that it applies to.
    Cheers.
  • noisywinternoisywinter Posts: 246
    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is grim

    Israeli Jews chuckling as they talk about wiping out the Arabs. Not settlers, "normal" folk

    https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393015740291162120?s=20


    Unfortunately, I can believe this is true. I was in Israel ten years ago and I heard very racist stuff from kids, and I feared for the future, then

    “We conquered these places.... they are ours”.

    “Devine justice”.

    Yuck.

    It’s the same lines you get from IS in reverse.

    I do have some limited empathy on the basis that I might just want to carpet bomb Dublin, irrespective of who started the dispute, if the Irish lobbed rockets at us every night for a week; but empathy on an emotional level only. We need to walk them back from the ledge or this will just get worse and worse.
    When I was in Israel ten years ago I witnessed horrible racist chanting at football grounds. It's a major problem in Israeli football

    "Beitar Jerusalem fans: 'Here we are, we're the most racist football team in the country'"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJOV_cN-JP8

    It was largely kids age 12-20, and it was obvious what lay ahead. It is a perverse irony that some Jews have turned into Nazis
    Yes, I’ve always been careful about the sensitivity of that analogy, but it’s hard not to think of it more and more.

    Because this is the internet, and you’re only ever one step away from being called all sorts of names, I will also emphasise that I have no time at all for Hammas. But then the passing of the PLO and a chance for peace was kind of the Israeli’s fault too.
    The problem is that I don't really understand what Israel's endgame is.

    Being in perpetual war with your neigbours ends with your destruction, because you have to be lucky every time and they only have to be lucky once.

    Israel has nukes though...
    So the endgame is Israel using its nukes?!

    That should play out fine
    I don't know, but if they were about to be defeated, would they really not use them?
    I am pretty certain they would use them, and I'm pretty certain the Arab/Muslim world would find a way to respond in kind, destroying Israel forever

    Israel urgently needs to seek out peace. America's power in the region is fading, China has no pro-Israel lobby

    Trouble is, I don't think Israelis particularly want peace any more. They've given up on the idea. They want the Palestinians kicked out, that is their ultimate solution, see that video downthread. Everything Israel does points to this - make life for Palestinians so appalling they quit, and go "somewhere else".

    But it is madness
    They don’t trust the Palestinian leadership. They were very close to a deal in Oslo and then the PLO walked away. Since then there have been constant attacks.

    I think the Israelis handle things very badly. But they believe that if they show weakness they will be rolled over. So they fight.

    It’s not clear to me the way out of this mess. But Kushner did manage to get 3/4 minor states to sign peace agreements with Israel - baby steps but some progress.
    This is way beyond "not displaying weakness". This is not "fighting". Who the fuck are they fighting? They are lynching Arabs on Israeli streets and hurling down brimstone on Gaza

    Israeli society has been coarsened and brutalised by decades of occupation of its "inferior" neighbour. This is what horrible occupations do to the occupiers, they corrode their morality

    Hamas are loathsome, but Israel, now, is just as bad, and arguably much crueller

    Honestly, what a load of tripe. It's mainly Israeli Arabs who have been been rioting, including mob attacks and burning down synagogues.

    Who are they fighting? Have you noticed the thousands of rockets being fired at their cities?

    Not even worth responding to the comment they are worse than Hamas.

    By the way having followed the last few days it seems pretty clear that Hamas et al aren't reporting most of their dead terrorists. the military activity seems to have been pretty successful with not much rockets at Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in the last couple of days and Hamas repeatedly indicating wanting a ceasefire.

    As to your condescending comments about Israel, having been there quite a few times over the last 20 years it's noticeable how prosperous and just nice it is these days. Incredible country with impressive achievements and seems all in all a pretty nice place to live.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,459
    edited May 14

    Sam Coates making a dick of himself, asking question to somebody who isn't there.....

    It would be news if the journalists didn't make a dick of themselves at these news conferences, after 15 months...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 24,463

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is grim

    Israeli Jews chuckling as they talk about wiping out the Arabs. Not settlers, "normal" folk

    https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393015740291162120?s=20


    Unfortunately, I can believe this is true. I was in Israel ten years ago and I heard very racist stuff from kids, and I feared for the future, then

    “We conquered these places.... they are ours”.

    “Devine justice”.

    Yuck.

    It’s the same lines you get from IS in reverse.

    I do have some limited empathy on the basis that I might just want to carpet bomb Dublin, irrespective of who started the dispute, if the Irish lobbed rockets at us every night for a week; but empathy on an emotional level only. We need to walk them back from the ledge or this will just get worse and worse.
    When I was in Israel ten years ago I witnessed horrible racist chanting at football grounds. It's a major problem in Israeli football

    "Beitar Jerusalem fans: 'Here we are, we're the most racist football team in the country'"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJOV_cN-JP8

    It was largely kids age 12-20, and it was obvious what lay ahead. It is a perverse irony that some Jews have turned into Nazis
    Yes, I’ve always been careful about the sensitivity of that analogy, but it’s hard not to think of it more and more.

    Because this is the internet, and you’re only ever one step away from being called all sorts of names, I will also emphasise that I have no time at all for Hammas. But then the passing of the PLO and a chance for peace was kind of the Israeli’s fault too.
    As regards the fevered digital debate of this issue in the UK, I think both sides merit a tongue lashing and I'm minded to give them one here and now.

    You get some on the left with no direct connection to the conflict who immerse themselves in the Palestinian cause and talk about it incessantly as if this particular oppression by a US enabled Israel is THE most appalling thing that's happening in the world today, or has ever happened in all of history. There are a handful like this in my local Labour party. Or there were, don't know if the end of Jeremy has meant the end of them too.

    Now it could well be that this is driven by an anti-imperialist mindset rather than an antisemitic one (almost certainly is in most cases) but given most Jews live in Israel or America it's difficult - if you're also a bit thick and prone to conspiracy theory stuff - to stop the slide into something so close to antisemitism that it's antisemitism.

    Then you have the other side and oh dear what a cesspit. Supporting an evil undertaking (the systematic treatment of a people as if they were less than human) on the grounds of "Israel's right to defend itself". Or shrugging and saying "Six of one, half a dozen of the other" when, given the imbalance in casualties, you have to consider an Arab life to be worth a fraction of an Israeli one to get to such an equivalence.

    And yes, sorry in advance, since I know some on here have a fit of the vapours at the very mention of the R word, but race is a factor. It's no co-incidence that people with white supremacy sympathies are prominent amongst those who, come what may, defend Israel to the hilt. These people neither have a direct connection to the conflict. They are the mirror of the unhinged lefties above.

    In fact they are (for me) a good deal more unsavoury. Why? Because the unhinged lefties are usually tumbling into antisemitism through anti-imperialism plus lack of brains. Whereas these people are expressing their pre-existing, innate racism through the Arab Israeli conflict. PLUS lack of brains.
  • noisywinternoisywinter Posts: 246

    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is grim

    Israeli Jews chuckling as they talk about wiping out the Arabs. Not settlers, "normal" folk

    https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393015740291162120?s=20


    Unfortunately, I can believe this is true. I was in Israel ten years ago and I heard very racist stuff from kids, and I feared for the future, then

    “We conquered these places.... they are ours”.

    “Devine justice”.

    Yuck.

    It’s the same lines you get from IS in reverse.

    I do have some limited empathy on the basis that I might just want to carpet bomb Dublin, irrespective of who started the dispute, if the Irish lobbed rockets at us every night for a week; but empathy on an emotional level only. We need to walk them back from the ledge or this will just get worse and worse.
    When I was in Israel ten years ago I witnessed horrible racist chanting at football grounds. It's a major problem in Israeli football

    "Beitar Jerusalem fans: 'Here we are, we're the most racist football team in the country'"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJOV_cN-JP8

    It was largely kids age 12-20, and it was obvious what lay ahead. It is a perverse irony that some Jews have turned into Nazis
    Yes, I’ve always been careful about the sensitivity of that analogy, but it’s hard not to think of it more and more.

    Because this is the internet, and you’re only ever one step away from being called all sorts of names, I will also emphasise that I have no time at all for Hammas. But then the passing of the PLO and a chance for peace was kind of the Israeli’s fault too.
    The problem is that I don't really understand what Israel's endgame is.

    Being in perpetual war with your neigbours ends with your destruction, because you have to be lucky every time and they only have to be lucky once.

    Israel has nukes though...
    So the endgame is Israel using its nukes?!

    That should play out fine
    I don't know, but if they were about to be defeated, would they really not use them?
    I am pretty certain they would use them, and I'm pretty certain the Arab/Muslim world would find a way to respond in kind, destroying Israel forever

    Israel urgently needs to seek out peace. America's power in the region is fading, China has no pro-Israel lobby

    Trouble is, I don't think Israelis particularly want peace any more. They've given up on the idea. They want the Palestinians kicked out, that is their ultimate solution, see that video downthread. Everything Israel does points to this - make life for Palestinians so appalling they quit, and go "somewhere else".

    But it is madness
    They don’t trust the Palestinian leadership. They were very close to a deal in Oslo and then the PLO walked away. Since then there have been constant attacks.

    I think the Israelis handle things very badly. But they believe that if they show weakness they will be rolled over. So they fight.

    It’s not clear to me the way out of this mess. But Kushner did manage to get 3/4 minor states to sign peace agreements with Israel - baby steps but some progress.
    This is way beyond "not displaying weakness". This is not "fighting". Who the fuck are they fighting? They are lynching Arabs on Israeli streets and hurling down brimstone on Gaza

    Israeli society has been coarsened and brutalised by decades of occupation of its "inferior" neighbour. This is what horrible occupations do to the occupiers, they corrode their morality

    Hamas are loathsome, but Israel, now, is just as bad, and arguably much crueller

    Honestly, what a load of tripe. It's mainly Israeli Arabs who have been been rioting, including mob attacks and burning down synagogues.

    Who are they fighting? Have you noticed the thousands of rockets being fired at their cities?

    Not even worth responding to the comment they are worse than Hamas.

    By the way having followed the last few days it seems pretty clear that Hamas et al aren't reporting most of their dead terrorists. the military activity seems to have been pretty successful with not much rockets at Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in the last couple of days and Hamas repeatedly indicating wanting a ceasefire.

    As to your condescending comments about Israel, having been there quite a few times over the last 20 years it's noticeable how prosperous and just nice it is these days. Incredible country with impressive achievements and seems all in all a pretty nice place to live.
    I should add the international support for Israel in this conflict has been pretty universal apart from the usual suspects. Austria's parliament and foreign ministry are currently flying the Israel flag and the US has blocked security council discussions.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 14,782
    Well done Express Lady.
    If you delay June. How long for?
    And shouldn't we be banning young people from pubs?

    Brilliant journalism.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,483
    More and more bizarre

    Israeli "police" actually wearing the Totenkopf. Like the Waffen SS

    https://twitter.com/abgutman/status/1393215918055071744?s=20


    "Are we the baddies?"
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 45,068
    These journalists are making Boris look the grown up
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,186
    This is the Owen Jones post I was talking about

    https://twitter.com/ArchRose90/status/1393126703287963649/photo/1
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,500
    rcs1000 said:

    I'd say an even greater proportion of those who voted for him didn't know who he really was.

    They were warned.

    That Tory "demon eyes" poster was W-A-Y ahead of the curve.....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    edited May 14

    These journalists are making Boris look the grown up

    They never learn......

    I watched Freddie Sayers interview with Ben Houchan for Unherd last night...its like night and day, ask question, wait for response, clearly done research as sensible probing follow up.

    Result - viewer is informed of interviewees stance on a wide range of views. And also because of the nature of the conversation, very little resorting to but but the other lot are worse.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,785
    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,264
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    These aren't Covid-specific restrictions, they are just normal restrictions. People can't just walk up to the border and be let in regardless of what they are doing. In the Guardian article it was clearly stated that they were "looking for work". Go up to the US border and say that and you'll quickly find yourself on your way home.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,785
    edited May 14
    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    These aren't Covid-specific restrictions, they are just normal restrictions. People can't just walk up to the border and be let in regardless of what they are doing. In the Guardian article it was clearly stated that they were "looking for work". Go up to the US border and say that and you'll quickly find yourself on your way home.
    That's not strictly true. One can enter the US looking for work perfectly legally - for a job interview for example. But one cannot enter the US to actually work without an appropriate visa.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,264
    edited May 14
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    These aren't Covid-specific restrictions, they are just normal restrictions. People can't just walk up to the border and be let in regardless of what they are doing. In the Guardian article it was clearly stated that they were "looking for work". Go up to the US border and say that and you'll quickly find yourself on your way home.
    That's not strictly true. One can enter the US looking for work perfectly legally - for a job interview for example. But one cannot enter the US to actually work without an appropriate visa.
    And the same is true in the UK. However, 'looking for a job' is not a permitted reason to enter (edit, in the US and the UK).
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,412
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is grim

    Israeli Jews chuckling as they talk about wiping out the Arabs. Not settlers, "normal" folk

    https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393015740291162120?s=20


    Unfortunately, I can believe this is true. I was in Israel ten years ago and I heard very racist stuff from kids, and I feared for the future, then

    “We conquered these places.... they are ours”.

    “Devine justice”.

    Yuck.

    It’s the same lines you get from IS in reverse.

    I do have some limited empathy on the basis that I might just want to carpet bomb Dublin, irrespective of who started the dispute, if the Irish lobbed rockets at us every night for a week; but empathy on an emotional level only. We need to walk them back from the ledge or this will just get worse and worse.
    When I was in Israel ten years ago I witnessed horrible racist chanting at football grounds. It's a major problem in Israeli football

    "Beitar Jerusalem fans: 'Here we are, we're the most racist football team in the country'"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJOV_cN-JP8

    It was largely kids age 12-20, and it was obvious what lay ahead. It is a perverse irony that some Jews have turned into Nazis
    Yes, I’ve always been careful about the sensitivity of that analogy, but it’s hard not to think of it more and more.

    Because this is the internet, and you’re only ever one step away from being called all sorts of names, I will also emphasise that I have no time at all for Hammas. But then the passing of the PLO and a chance for peace was kind of the Israeli’s fault too.
    The problem is that I don't really understand what Israel's endgame is.

    Being in perpetual war with your neigbours ends with your destruction, because you have to be lucky every time and they only have to be lucky once.

    Israel has nukes though...
    So the endgame is Israel using its nukes?!

    That should play out fine
    I don't know, but if they were about to be defeated, would they really not use them?
    I am pretty certain they would use them, and I'm pretty certain the Arab/Muslim world would find a way to respond in kind, destroying Israel forever

    Israel urgently needs to seek out peace. America's power in the region is fading, China has no pro-Israel lobby

    Trouble is, I don't think Israelis particularly want peace any more. They've given up on the idea. They want the Palestinians kicked out, that is their ultimate solution, see that video downthread. Everything Israel does points to this - make life for Palestinians so appalling they quit, and go "somewhere else".

    But it is madness
    They don’t trust the Palestinian leadership. They were very close to a deal in Oslo and then the PLO walked away. Since then there have been constant attacks.

    I think the Israelis handle things very badly. But they believe that if they show weakness they will be rolled over. So they fight.

    It’s not clear to me the way out of this mess. But Kushner did manage to get 3/4 minor states to sign peace agreements with Israel - baby steps but some progress.
    This is way beyond "not displaying weakness". This is not "fighting". Who the fuck are they fighting? They are lynching Arabs on Israeli streets and hurling down brimstone on Gaza

    Israeli society has been coarsened and brutalised by decades of occupation of its "inferior" neighbour. This is what horrible occupations do to the occupiers, they corrode their morality

    Hamas are loathsome, but Israel, now, is just as bad, and arguably much crueller

    Honestly, what a load of tripe. It's mainly Israeli Arabs who have been been rioting, including mob attacks and burning down synagogues.

    Who are they fighting? Have you noticed the thousands of rockets being fired at their cities?

    Not even worth responding to the comment they are worse than Hamas.

    By the way having followed the last few days it seems pretty clear that Hamas et al aren't reporting most of their dead terrorists. the military activity seems to have been pretty successful with not much rockets at Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in the last couple of days and Hamas repeatedly indicating wanting a ceasefire.

    As to your condescending comments about Israel, having been there quite a few times over the last 20 years it's noticeable how prosperous and just nice it is these days. Incredible country with impressive achievements and seems all in all a pretty nice place to live.
    I should add the international support for Israel in this conflict has been pretty universal apart from the usual suspects. Austria's parliament and foreign ministry are currently flying the Israel flag and the US has blocked security council discussions.
    Nevertheless, in the territories occupied by Israel there is apartheid. Jewish citizens simply have more rights than Palestinian ones.

    I don't see how that doesn't foster a hatred of Israel.
    Certainly helped do the trick re: Catholics viz-a-viz British in Northern Ireland, before GFA & beyond.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,557
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa/y

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    edited May 14
    I love the way the Labour and the media, who struggle to even get the daily stats right latch on to some idea and push it, todays it all about all over 16s getting jabbed. Now as far as I know only over 18 years are cleared at the moment and like the we need to jab all the teachers push, I doubt they have done any or have access to any modelling on the effectiveness of different strategic approaches. But it doesn't stop them talking about it for hours.

    I presume we will at some point soon get a paper released on this and why the government have gone for reduction to 8 weeks for 2nd doses.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,186

    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is grim

    Israeli Jews chuckling as they talk about wiping out the Arabs. Not settlers, "normal" folk

    https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393015740291162120?s=20


    Unfortunately, I can believe this is true. I was in Israel ten years ago and I heard very racist stuff from kids, and I feared for the future, then

    “We conquered these places.... they are ours”.

    “Devine justice”.

    Yuck.

    It’s the same lines you get from IS in reverse.

    I do have some limited empathy on the basis that I might just want to carpet bomb Dublin, irrespective of who started the dispute, if the Irish lobbed rockets at us every night for a week; but empathy on an emotional level only. We need to walk them back from the ledge or this will just get worse and worse.
    When I was in Israel ten years ago I witnessed horrible racist chanting at football grounds. It's a major problem in Israeli football

    "Beitar Jerusalem fans: 'Here we are, we're the most racist football team in the country'"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJOV_cN-JP8

    It was largely kids age 12-20, and it was obvious what lay ahead. It is a perverse irony that some Jews have turned into Nazis
    Yes, I’ve always been careful about the sensitivity of that analogy, but it’s hard not to think of it more and more.

    Because this is the internet, and you’re only ever one step away from being called all sorts of names, I will also emphasise that I have no time at all for Hammas. But then the passing of the PLO and a chance for peace was kind of the Israeli’s fault too.
    The problem is that I don't really understand what Israel's endgame is.

    Being in perpetual war with your neigbours ends with your destruction, because you have to be lucky every time and they only have to be lucky once.

    Israel has nukes though...
    So the endgame is Israel using its nukes?!

    That should play out fine
    I don't know, but if they were about to be defeated, would they really not use them?
    I am pretty certain they would use them, and I'm pretty certain the Arab/Muslim world would find a way to respond in kind, destroying Israel forever

    Israel urgently needs to seek out peace. America's power in the region is fading, China has no pro-Israel lobby

    Trouble is, I don't think Israelis particularly want peace any more. They've given up on the idea. They want the Palestinians kicked out, that is their ultimate solution, see that video downthread. Everything Israel does points to this - make life for Palestinians so appalling they quit, and go "somewhere else".

    But it is madness
    They don’t trust the Palestinian leadership. They were very close to a deal in Oslo and then the PLO walked away. Since then there have been constant attacks.

    I think the Israelis handle things very badly. But they believe that if they show weakness they will be rolled over. So they fight.

    It’s not clear to me the way out of this mess. But Kushner did manage to get 3/4 minor states to sign peace agreements with Israel - baby steps but some progress.
    This is way beyond "not displaying weakness". This is not "fighting". Who the fuck are they fighting? They are lynching Arabs on Israeli streets and hurling down brimstone on Gaza

    Israeli society has been coarsened and brutalised by decades of occupation of its "inferior" neighbour. This is what horrible occupations do to the occupiers, they corrode their morality

    Hamas are loathsome, but Israel, now, is just as bad, and arguably much crueller

    Honestly, what a load of tripe. It's mainly Israeli Arabs who have been been rioting, including mob attacks and burning down synagogues.

    Who are they fighting? Have you noticed the thousands of rockets being fired at their cities?

    Not even worth responding to the comment they are worse than Hamas.

    By the way having followed the last few days it seems pretty clear that Hamas et al aren't reporting most of their dead terrorists. the military activity seems to have been pretty successful with not much rockets at Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in the last couple of days and Hamas repeatedly indicating wanting a ceasefire.

    As to your condescending comments about Israel, having been there quite a few times over the last 20 years it's noticeable how prosperous and just nice it is these days. Incredible country with impressive achievements and seems all in all a pretty nice place to live.
    I should add the international support for Israel in this conflict has been pretty universal apart from the usual suspects. Austria's parliament and foreign ministry are currently flying the Israel flag and the US has blocked security council discussions.
    A couple of Dem politicians excepted - guess who.......
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,785
    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    These aren't Covid-specific restrictions, they are just normal restrictions. People can't just walk up to the border and be let in regardless of what they are doing. In the Guardian article it was clearly stated that they were "looking for work". Go up to the US border and say that and you'll quickly find yourself on your way home.
    That's not strictly true. One can enter the US looking for work perfectly legally - for a job interview for example. But one cannot enter the US to actually work without an appropriate visa.
    And the same is true in the UK. However, 'looking for a job' is not a permitted reason to enter (edit, in the US and the UK).
    Fair enough.
  • noisywinternoisywinter Posts: 246
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is grim

    Israeli Jews chuckling as they talk about wiping out the Arabs. Not settlers, "normal" folk

    https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393015740291162120?s=20


    Unfortunately, I can believe this is true. I was in Israel ten years ago and I heard very racist stuff from kids, and I feared for the future, then

    “We conquered these places.... they are ours”.

    “Devine justice”.

    Yuck.

    It’s the same lines you get from IS in reverse.

    I do have some limited empathy on the basis that I might just want to carpet bomb Dublin, irrespective of who started the dispute, if the Irish lobbed rockets at us every night for a week; but empathy on an emotional level only. We need to walk them back from the ledge or this will just get worse and worse.
    When I was in Israel ten years ago I witnessed horrible racist chanting at football grounds. It's a major problem in Israeli football

    "Beitar Jerusalem fans: 'Here we are, we're the most racist football team in the country'"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJOV_cN-JP8

    It was largely kids age 12-20, and it was obvious what lay ahead. It is a perverse irony that some Jews have turned into Nazis
    Yes, I’ve always been careful about the sensitivity of that analogy, but it’s hard not to think of it more and more.

    Because this is the internet, and you’re only ever one step away from being called all sorts of names, I will also emphasise that I have no time at all for Hammas. But then the passing of the PLO and a chance for peace was kind of the Israeli’s fault too.
    The problem is that I don't really understand what Israel's endgame is.

    Being in perpetual war with your neigbours ends with your destruction, because you have to be lucky every time and they only have to be lucky once.

    Israel has nukes though...
    So the endgame is Israel using its nukes?!

    That should play out fine
    I don't know, but if they were about to be defeated, would they really not use them?
    I am pretty certain they would use them, and I'm pretty certain the Arab/Muslim world would find a way to respond in kind, destroying Israel forever

    Israel urgently needs to seek out peace. America's power in the region is fading, China has no pro-Israel lobby

    Trouble is, I don't think Israelis particularly want peace any more. They've given up on the idea. They want the Palestinians kicked out, that is their ultimate solution, see that video downthread. Everything Israel does points to this - make life for Palestinians so appalling they quit, and go "somewhere else".

    But it is madness
    They don’t trust the Palestinian leadership. They were very close to a deal in Oslo and then the PLO walked away. Since then there have been constant attacks.

    I think the Israelis handle things very badly. But they believe that if they show weakness they will be rolled over. So they fight.

    It’s not clear to me the way out of this mess. But Kushner did manage to get 3/4 minor states to sign peace agreements with Israel - baby steps but some progress.
    This is way beyond "not displaying weakness". This is not "fighting". Who the fuck are they fighting? They are lynching Arabs on Israeli streets and hurling down brimstone on Gaza

    Israeli society has been coarsened and brutalised by decades of occupation of its "inferior" neighbour. This is what horrible occupations do to the occupiers, they corrode their morality

    Hamas are loathsome, but Israel, now, is just as bad, and arguably much crueller

    Honestly, what a load of tripe. It's mainly Israeli Arabs who have been been rioting, including mob attacks and burning down synagogues.

    Who are they fighting? Have you noticed the thousands of rockets being fired at their cities?

    Not even worth responding to the comment they are worse than Hamas.

    By the way having followed the last few days it seems pretty clear that Hamas et al aren't reporting most of their dead terrorists. the military activity seems to have been pretty successful with not much rockets at Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in the last couple of days and Hamas repeatedly indicating wanting a ceasefire.

    As to your condescending comments about Israel, having been there quite a few times over the last 20 years it's noticeable how prosperous and just nice it is these days. Incredible country with impressive achievements and seems all in all a pretty nice place to live.
    I should add the international support for Israel in this conflict has been pretty universal apart from the usual suspects. Austria's parliament and foreign ministry are currently flying the Israel flag and the US has blocked security council discussions.
    Nevertheless, in the territories occupied by Israel there is apartheid. Jewish citizens simply have more rights than Palestinian ones.

    I don't see how that doesn't foster a hatred of Israel.
    In the west Bank? Well the Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens. There is no peace agreement. The restrictions on Palestinian movement etc are for justifiable security reasons. If the Palestinians want greater freedoms including a sovereign state then they should cut out the terror and sit down and make a deal. God knows they have had enough chances. Plus it's not too bad in the major west bank cities, I've been to ramallah and it's not bad at all.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,785

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa/y

    Hmmm... having just said "fair enough", it would appear that looking for work seems to be OK on that list, so long as you stay less than a month.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,557
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    These aren't Covid-specific restrictions, they are just normal restrictions. People can't just walk up to the border and be let in regardless of what they are doing. In the Guardian article it was clearly stated that they were "looking for work". Go up to the US border and say that and you'll quickly find yourself on your way home.
    That's not strictly true. One can enter the US looking for work perfectly legally - for a job interview for example. But one cannot enter the US to actually work without an appropriate visa.
    And the same is true in the UK. However, 'looking for a job' is not a permitted reason to enter (edit, in the US and the UK).
    Fair enough.
    This is the visa she should have had:

    https://www.gov.uk/overseas-domestic-worker-visa

    Took me 2 minutes to find.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,483
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is grim

    Israeli Jews chuckling as they talk about wiping out the Arabs. Not settlers, "normal" folk

    https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393015740291162120?s=20


    Unfortunately, I can believe this is true. I was in Israel ten years ago and I heard very racist stuff from kids, and I feared for the future, then

    “We conquered these places.... they are ours”.

    “Devine justice”.

    Yuck.

    It’s the same lines you get from IS in reverse.

    I do have some limited empathy on the basis that I might just want to carpet bomb Dublin, irrespective of who started the dispute, if the Irish lobbed rockets at us every night for a week; but empathy on an emotional level only. We need to walk them back from the ledge or this will just get worse and worse.
    When I was in Israel ten years ago I witnessed horrible racist chanting at football grounds. It's a major problem in Israeli football

    "Beitar Jerusalem fans: 'Here we are, we're the most racist football team in the country'"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJOV_cN-JP8

    It was largely kids age 12-20, and it was obvious what lay ahead. It is a perverse irony that some Jews have turned into Nazis
    Yes, I’ve always been careful about the sensitivity of that analogy, but it’s hard not to think of it more and more.

    Because this is the internet, and you’re only ever one step away from being called all sorts of names, I will also emphasise that I have no time at all for Hammas. But then the passing of the PLO and a chance for peace was kind of the Israeli’s fault too.
    The problem is that I don't really understand what Israel's endgame is.

    Being in perpetual war with your neigbours ends with your destruction, because you have to be lucky every time and they only have to be lucky once.

    Israel has nukes though...
    So the endgame is Israel using its nukes?!

    That should play out fine
    I don't know, but if they were about to be defeated, would they really not use them?
    I am pretty certain they would use them, and I'm pretty certain the Arab/Muslim world would find a way to respond in kind, destroying Israel forever

    Israel urgently needs to seek out peace. America's power in the region is fading, China has no pro-Israel lobby

    Trouble is, I don't think Israelis particularly want peace any more. They've given up on the idea. They want the Palestinians kicked out, that is their ultimate solution, see that video downthread. Everything Israel does points to this - make life for Palestinians so appalling they quit, and go "somewhere else".

    But it is madness
    They don’t trust the Palestinian leadership. They were very close to a deal in Oslo and then the PLO walked away. Since then there have been constant attacks.

    I think the Israelis handle things very badly. But they believe that if they show weakness they will be rolled over. So they fight.

    It’s not clear to me the way out of this mess. But Kushner did manage to get 3/4 minor states to sign peace agreements with Israel - baby steps but some progress.
    This is way beyond "not displaying weakness". This is not "fighting". Who the fuck are they fighting? They are lynching Arabs on Israeli streets and hurling down brimstone on Gaza

    Israeli society has been coarsened and brutalised by decades of occupation of its "inferior" neighbour. This is what horrible occupations do to the occupiers, they corrode their morality

    Hamas are loathsome, but Israel, now, is just as bad, and arguably much crueller

    Honestly, what a load of tripe. It's mainly Israeli Arabs who have been been rioting, including mob attacks and burning down synagogues.

    Who are they fighting? Have you noticed the thousands of rockets being fired at their cities?

    Not even worth responding to the comment they are worse than Hamas.

    By the way having followed the last few days it seems pretty clear that Hamas et al aren't reporting most of their dead terrorists. the military activity seems to have been pretty successful with not much rockets at Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in the last couple of days and Hamas repeatedly indicating wanting a ceasefire.

    As to your condescending comments about Israel, having been there quite a few times over the last 20 years it's noticeable how prosperous and just nice it is these days. Incredible country with impressive achievements and seems all in all a pretty nice place to live.
    I should add the international support for Israel in this conflict has been pretty universal apart from the usual suspects. Austria's parliament and foreign ministry are currently flying the Israel flag and the US has blocked security council discussions.
    Nevertheless, in the territories occupied by Israel there is apartheid. Jewish citizens simply have more rights than Palestinian ones.

    I don't see how that doesn't foster a hatred of Israel.
    Quite so

    I generally avoid the whole Israel-Palestine debate, because it is the geopolitical equivalent of the trans-TERF wars.

    But yes, the way Israel treats Palestinians is essentially a form of apartheid. That is the only word. They are lesser "citizens". They can have their homes seized by Jewish Israelis, the opposite does not happen
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    We must be expecting big incoming deliveries and record daily jabs....

    https://twitter.com/whazell/status/1393252504150872071?s=19
  • PhilPhil Posts: 586
    Leon said:

    More and more bizarre

    Israeli "police" actually wearing the Totenkopf. Like the Waffen SS

    https://twitter.com/abgutman/status/1393215918055071744?s=20


    "Are we the baddies?"

    To be precise: this is the Punisher logo, oft worn by crypto-fascist types in US police forces, much to the disgust of it’s creator.

    See https://popula.com/2019/02/24/about-face/ for more on this.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,557
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa/y

    Hmmm... having just said "fair enough", it would appear that looking for work seems to be OK on that list, so long as you stay less than a month.
    Then she would have had a return ticket. But we know she already had a job lined up and hadn’t applied for the required visa.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,264
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa/y

    Hmmm... having just said "fair enough", it would appear that looking for work seems to be OK on that list, so long as you stay less than a month.
    I had looked at this yesterday, but what I saw suggested the exemptions were limited to things like conferences and job interviews.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,264
    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa/y

    Hmmm... having just said "fair enough", it would appear that looking for work seems to be OK on that list, so long as you stay less than a month.
    I had looked at this yesterday, but what I saw suggested the exemptions were limited to things like conferences and job interviews.
    Here's the list of permitted activities for a visitor without a visa. Looking for work not listed, which isn't too surprising given how nebulous it is.

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-visitor-permitted-activities
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    edited May 14
    The Guardian story smells like one of their classics where they miss out some crucial detail.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 18,775

    I love the way the Labour and the media, who struggle to even get the daily stats right latch on to some idea and push it, todays it all about all over 16s getting jabbed. Now as far as I know only over 18 years are cleared at the moment and like the we need to jab all the teachers push, I doubt they have done any or have access to any modelling on the effectiveness of different strategic approaches. But it doesn't stop them talking about it for hours.

    I presume we will at some point soon get a paper released on this and why the government have gone for reduction to 8 weeks for 2nd doses.

    Reasons to shorten the 2nd dose interval

    - Get the over 50s too maximum immunity faster
    - The T-cell thing that was mentioned in the Guardian report.
    - All of the above
    - ???
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,412
    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    These aren't Covid-specific restrictions, they are just normal restrictions. People can't just walk up to the border and be let in regardless of what they are doing. In the Guardian article it was clearly stated that they were "looking for work". Go up to the US border and say that and you'll quickly find yourself on your way home.
    Story does say the uncle admitted he made a mistake "not realising that work, paid or not, is not permissible post-Brexit without a visa."

    Would have been nice for the immigration authorities to let him know what was happening with his niece. But then they're not exactly famous for their niceness.

    Irony is, if she'd just said she was going to visit her uncle & family, likely would have gotten in. It was the uncles's letter that scuttled that.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/14/hostile-uk-border-regime-traumatises-visitors-from-eu
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643

    I love the way the Labour and the media, who struggle to even get the daily stats right latch on to some idea and push it, todays it all about all over 16s getting jabbed. Now as far as I know only over 18 years are cleared at the moment and like the we need to jab all the teachers push, I doubt they have done any or have access to any modelling on the effectiveness of different strategic approaches. But it doesn't stop them talking about it for hours.

    I presume we will at some point soon get a paper released on this and why the government have gone for reduction to 8 weeks for 2nd doses.

    Reasons to shorten the 2nd dose interval

    - Get the over 50s too maximum immunity faster
    - The T-cell thing that was mentioned in the Guardian report.
    - All of the above
    - ???
    I presume our esteemed journalists didn't ask this at the press conference?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,412
    edited May 14

    The Guardian story smells like one of their classics where they miss out some crucial detail.

    They actually mentioned the crucial detail. Of course there's still way she & family were treated.

    By any chance, do we have an actual UK immigration lawyer who is qualified to weigh in on this?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,459
    Bad luck for people in Glasgow and Moray. They won't be able to travel outside their local area on Monday.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    edited May 14

    The Guardian story smells like one of their classics where they miss out some crucial detail.

    They actually mentioned the crucial detail. Of course there's still way she & family were treated.
    There may be more. We have seen it repeatedly with the Guardian with these types of stories. They are like the Mail who spin stories the other way e.g. Focusing on some nonsense defence claim in a trial and the saying the judge bought it and they didn't get the max sentence, when there was a whole load of other things.

    The Guardian have form of excluding a detail that makes a story far less sympathetic emg tale.of the grandmother getting deported, on the face of it sounded really bad, but there were loads of bits missing from the tale, where became clear granny was no innocent, she deliberately and repeatedly broke the rules and her claims of what would she do in her home country, well she owned a flat there for 20 years.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,645
    edited May 14

    Journalist

    'If you have to delay the June deadline how long will it be'

    The quality and intelligence of these journalists questions makes you despair

    Journalists are interested in reporting the answer; the quality of the question is often incidental.

    They wanted to get the PM to talk about how long any delay might last, in the hope that he might drop some newsworthy clue amid the expected waffle about how it wasn’t possible to say. The dumb question asked is probably as good a way in as any. A more ‘intelligent’ question that acknowledged the impossibility of saying right now would simply invite an affirmative answer and extract no news.

    For similar reasons, very intelligent barristers often ask witnesses very dumb questions in court.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 14,586

    The Guardian story smells like one of their classics where they miss out some crucial detail.

    They actually mentioned the crucial detail. Of course there's still way she & family were treated.

    By any chance, do we have an actual UK immigration lawyer who is qualified to weigh in on this?
    BTW this has just appeared -

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/14/stop-locking-up-eu-citizens-in-removal-centres-uk-ministers-tell-border-officials
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,483
    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    More and more bizarre

    Israeli "police" actually wearing the Totenkopf. Like the Waffen SS

    https://twitter.com/abgutman/status/1393215918055071744?s=20


    "Are we the baddies?"

    To be precise: this is the Punisher logo, oft worn by crypto-fascist types in US police forces, much to the disgust of it’s creator.

    See https://popula.com/2019/02/24/about-face/ for more on this.
    Very interesting, thanks

    Elements in the Israeli military forces actively embracing their "crypto-Fascism" is an interesting new twist
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 45,068
    Andy_JS said:

    Bad luck for people in Glasgow and Moray. They won't be able to travel outside their local area on Monday.

    My wife's family live in Moray and they say it originated in the Academy and external school maintenance contractors were suspected of being the source of the outbreak in Elgin
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,475
    Long story of how WHO got the airborne nature of COVID wrong at the outset of the pandemic:

    https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,500
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa/y

    Hmmm... having just said "fair enough", it would appear that looking for work seems to be OK on that list, so long as you stay less than a month.
    In times of Covid?
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is grim

    Israeli Jews chuckling as they talk about wiping out the Arabs. Not settlers, "normal" folk

    https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393015740291162120?s=20


    Unfortunately, I can believe this is true. I was in Israel ten years ago and I heard very racist stuff from kids, and I feared for the future, then

    “We conquered these places.... they are ours”.

    “Devine justice”.

    Yuck.

    It’s the same lines you get from IS in reverse.

    I do have some limited empathy on the basis that I might just want to carpet bomb Dublin, irrespective of who started the dispute, if the Irish lobbed rockets at us every night for a week; but empathy on an emotional level only. We need to walk them back from the ledge or this will just get worse and worse.
    When I was in Israel ten years ago I witnessed horrible racist chanting at football grounds. It's a major problem in Israeli football

    "Beitar Jerusalem fans: 'Here we are, we're the most racist football team in the country'"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJOV_cN-JP8

    It was largely kids age 12-20, and it was obvious what lay ahead. It is a perverse irony that some Jews have turned into Nazis
    Yes, I’ve always been careful about the sensitivity of that analogy, but it’s hard not to think of it more and more.

    Because this is the internet, and you’re only ever one step away from being called all sorts of names, I will also emphasise that I have no time at all for Hammas. But then the passing of the PLO and a chance for peace was kind of the Israeli’s fault too.
    As regards the fevered digital debate of this issue in the UK, I think both sides merit a tongue lashing and I'm minded to give them one here and now.

    You get some on the left with no direct connection to the conflict who immerse themselves in the Palestinian cause and talk about it incessantly as if this particular oppression by a US enabled Israel is THE most appalling thing that's happening in the world today, or has ever happened in all of history. There are a handful like this in my local Labour party. Or there were, don't know if the end of Jeremy has meant the end of them too.

    Now it could well be that this is driven by an anti-imperialist mindset rather than an antisemitic one (almost certainly is in most cases) but given most Jews live in Israel or America it's difficult - if you're also a bit thick and prone to conspiracy theory stuff - to stop the slide into something so close to antisemitism that it's antisemitism.

    Then you have the other side and oh dear what a cesspit. Supporting an evil undertaking (the systematic treatment of a people as if they were less than human) on the grounds of "Israel's right to defend itself". Or shrugging and saying "Six of one, half a dozen of the other" when, given the imbalance in casualties, you have to consider an Arab life to be worth a fraction of an Israeli one to get to such an equivalence.

    And yes, sorry in advance, since I know some on here have a fit of the vapours at the very mention of the R word, but race is a factor. It's no co-incidence that people with white supremacy sympathies are prominent amongst those who, come what may, defend Israel to the hilt. These people neither have a direct connection to the conflict. They are the mirror of the unhinged lefties above.

    In fact they are (for me) a good deal more unsavoury. Why? Because the unhinged lefties are usually tumbling into antisemitism through anti-imperialism plus lack of brains. Whereas these people are expressing their pre-existing, innate racism through the Arab Israeli conflict. PLUS lack of brains.
    I pretty much agree with all of that, and linked to it I therefore lament the lack of any serious discussion on the issue. The West (and obviously, mostly still the US) still has the power to change things (a bit, at least). But we don’t and we won’t because of the domestic politics of it all.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 586
    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    These aren't Covid-specific restrictions, they are just normal restrictions. People can't just walk up to the border and be let in regardless of what they are doing. In the Guardian article it was clearly stated that they were "looking for work". Go up to the US border and say that and you'll quickly find yourself on your way home.
    That's not strictly true. One can enter the US looking for work perfectly legally - for a job interview for example. But one cannot enter the US to actually work without an appropriate visa.
    And the same is true in the UK. However, 'looking for a job' is not a permitted reason to enter (edit, in the US and the UK).
    You are permitted to enter the UK as a visitor in order to attend a pre-arranged job interview: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-visitor-permitted-activities “PA 4. A visitor may: (a) attend meetings, conferences, seminars, interviews;”

    Reading between the lines, some people are thinking that this means they can come to the UK to look for work. It doesn’t - you can only enter the UK as a visitor to attend a job interview that has already been arranged. From these accounts, you’d better have your paperwork from the company in question printed out & have contact phone numbers on hand if you don’t want to find yourself in Yarls Wood!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 45,068
    IanB2 said:

    Journalist

    'If you have to delay the June deadline how long will it be'

    The quality and intelligence of these journalists questions makes you despair

    Journalists are interested in reporting the answer; the quality of the question is often incidental.

    They wanted to get the PM to talk about how long any delay might last, in the hope that he might drop some newsworthy clue amid the expected waffle about how it wasn’t possible to say. The dumb question asked is probably as good a way in as any. A more ‘intelligent’ question that acknowledged the impossibility of saying right now would simply invite an affirmative answer and extract no news.
    To be honest better no news then wasting everyone's time and intelligence
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,264
    Phil said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    These aren't Covid-specific restrictions, they are just normal restrictions. People can't just walk up to the border and be let in regardless of what they are doing. In the Guardian article it was clearly stated that they were "looking for work". Go up to the US border and say that and you'll quickly find yourself on your way home.
    That's not strictly true. One can enter the US looking for work perfectly legally - for a job interview for example. But one cannot enter the US to actually work without an appropriate visa.
    And the same is true in the UK. However, 'looking for a job' is not a permitted reason to enter (edit, in the US and the UK).
    You are permitted to enter the UK as a visitor in order to attend a pre-arranged job interview: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-visitor-permitted-activities “PA 4. A visitor may: (a) attend meetings, conferences, seminars, interviews;”

    Reading between the lines, some people are thinking that this means they can come to the UK to look for work. It doesn’t - you can only enter the UK as a visitor to attend a job interview that has already been arranged. From these accounts, you’d better have your paperwork from the company in question printed out & have contact phone numbers on hand if you don’t want to find yourself in Yarls Wood!
    That's my reading of it too, that it's a very specific exemption for attending an interview with an invitation from the company.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,557
    Update on that superspreader event demo yesterday in Sturgeon’s constituency - the men involved have been here illegally for 10 years:

    https://twitter.com/PeterAdamSmith/status/1393172932457897985?s=20
  • glwglw Posts: 7,688

    I love the way the Labour and the media, who struggle to even get the daily stats right latch on to some idea and push it, todays it all about all over 16s getting jabbed. Now as far as I know only over 18 years are cleared at the moment and like the we need to jab all the teachers push, I doubt they have done any or have access to any modelling on the effectiveness of different strategic approaches. But it doesn't stop them talking about it for hours.

    I presume we will at some point soon get a paper released on this and why the government have gone for reduction to 8 weeks for 2nd doses.

    They never seem to grasp that the JCVI et al. are asking the very same questions about how to optimally use the vaccines to get the most benefit. And yet if Andy Burnham or someone similar comes up with some bright idea they all jump on the bandwagon. I can only assume the medics have a similar response to such advice as I get when I hear politicians wittering on about computing related issues.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 193
    Phil said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    These aren't Covid-specific restrictions, they are just normal restrictions. People can't just walk up to the border and be let in regardless of what they are doing. In the Guardian article it was clearly stated that they were "looking for work". Go up to the US border and say that and you'll quickly find yourself on your way home.
    That's not strictly true. One can enter the US looking for work perfectly legally - for a job interview for example. But one cannot enter the US to actually work without an appropriate visa.
    And the same is true in the UK. However, 'looking for a job' is not a permitted reason to enter (edit, in the US and the UK).
    You are permitted to enter the UK as a visitor in order to attend a pre-arranged job interview: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-visitor-permitted-activities “PA 4. A visitor may: (a) attend meetings, conferences, seminars, interviews;”

    Reading between the lines, some people are thinking that this means they can come to the UK to look for work. It doesn’t - you can only enter the UK as a visitor to attend a job interview that has already been arranged. From these accounts, you’d better have your paperwork from the company in question printed out & have contact phone numbers on hand if you don’t want to find yourself in Yarls Wood!
    So, in practical terms, better to just lie and say you're on holiday, if you don't have an interview but want to scout out the job market.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    Andy_JS said:

    Bad luck for people in Glasgow and Moray. They won't be able to travel outside their local area on Monday.

    The rest of Scotland can be heard cheering....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,264
    carnforth said:

    Phil said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    These aren't Covid-specific restrictions, they are just normal restrictions. People can't just walk up to the border and be let in regardless of what they are doing. In the Guardian article it was clearly stated that they were "looking for work". Go up to the US border and say that and you'll quickly find yourself on your way home.
    That's not strictly true. One can enter the US looking for work perfectly legally - for a job interview for example. But one cannot enter the US to actually work without an appropriate visa.
    And the same is true in the UK. However, 'looking for a job' is not a permitted reason to enter (edit, in the US and the UK).
    You are permitted to enter the UK as a visitor in order to attend a pre-arranged job interview: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-visitor-permitted-activities “PA 4. A visitor may: (a) attend meetings, conferences, seminars, interviews;”

    Reading between the lines, some people are thinking that this means they can come to the UK to look for work. It doesn’t - you can only enter the UK as a visitor to attend a job interview that has already been arranged. From these accounts, you’d better have your paperwork from the company in question printed out & have contact phone numbers on hand if you don’t want to find yourself in Yarls Wood!
    So, in practical terms, better to just lie and say you're on holiday, if you don't have an interview but want to scout out the job market.
    Yeah, but have they not heard of the internet?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,193

    I love the way the Labour and the media, who struggle to even get the daily stats right latch on to some idea and push it, todays it all about all over 16s getting jabbed. Now as far as I know only over 18 years are cleared at the moment and like the we need to jab all the teachers push, I doubt they have done any or have access to any modelling on the effectiveness of different strategic approaches. But it doesn't stop them talking about it for hours.

    I presume we will at some point soon get a paper released on this and why the government have gone for reduction to 8 weeks for 2nd doses.

    Reasons to shorten the 2nd dose interval

    - Get the over 50s too maximum immunity faster
    - The T-cell thing that was mentioned in the Guardian report.
    - All of the above
    - ???
    Wouldn't it be more effective to get first vaccinations into as many as people to reduce the numbers who might a) have serious problems if contracting the Indian Variant and b) could potentially transmit the Variant?

    There's something here doesn't make sense - what is it about this particular Variant that has suddenly caused a change in vaccination policy which has been consistent since New Year? Is it perhaps more serious than we have been led to believe?

    The line to now has been the degree of immunity existing 11 weeks after a fist vaccination is high (the reason we moved from the 3 weeks recommended by Pfizer to 12 weeks). Now, it seems the push is to get second vaccinations into those most at risk but the emphasis until now has been to get first vaccinations into as many people as before.

    It's been 9 weeks since my first vaccination and I'm due my second in a fortnight - am I going to be contacted for an earlier appointment? It all smacks of something more serious we're not being told.

    Needless to say, postponing Monday's next stage of "freedom" would have been politically suicidal for Johnson so we're going to have to go with it and see what (if anything) happens. Too many people have vested too much in the final lifting of restrictions on 21/6 for it not to happen.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    edited May 14
    glw said:

    I love the way the Labour and the media, who struggle to even get the daily stats right latch on to some idea and push it, todays it all about all over 16s getting jabbed. Now as far as I know only over 18 years are cleared at the moment and like the we need to jab all the teachers push, I doubt they have done any or have access to any modelling on the effectiveness of different strategic approaches. But it doesn't stop them talking about it for hours.

    I presume we will at some point soon get a paper released on this and why the government have gone for reduction to 8 weeks for 2nd doses.

    They never seem to grasp that the JCVI et al. are asking the very same questions about how to optimally use the vaccines to get the most benefit. And yet if Andy Burnham or someone similar comes up with some bright idea they all jump on the bandwagon. I can only assume the medics have a similar response to such advice as I get when I hear politicians wittering on about computing related issues.
    The distain from the vaccine task force for the media was absolutely clear in that CH4 documentary. They pretty much said their fake news nearly derailed the whole thing and also spread misinformation / fear over trivial things like vial supply (which the UK again had purchased huge qualities in April 2020).

    One of the top people said they very nearly didn't take the role, because he knew he would be spending billions in public money on an educated gamble, but should it not work the media would ruin his life
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,146

    There's a widespread expectation among Westminster-based journalists and foreign correspondents reporting from London that a huge constitutional bust up between Sturgeon and Johnson is inevitable. But it's not clear the British government has to do anything 1/9
    ....

    In either event, the constitutional clash between London and Edinburgh doesn't happen. The 2nd referendum is stopped by Scots in Scottish courts by Scottish judges, with the Johnson government looking on. Not quite the SNP playbook. 9/9


    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1393201453863419909?s=20

    Though I think this is probably right, there is the possibility that sec 33 of the Act means that only the AG or Scottish law officers can challenge a Scottish act as being outwith its powers. Also the four week period for doing so means that there is danger in doing nothing.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/section/33


  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,645

    IanB2 said:

    Journalist

    'If you have to delay the June deadline how long will it be'

    The quality and intelligence of these journalists questions makes you despair

    Journalists are interested in reporting the answer; the quality of the question is often incidental.

    They wanted to get the PM to talk about how long any delay might last, in the hope that he might drop some newsworthy clue amid the expected waffle about how it wasn’t possible to say. The dumb question asked is probably as good a way in as any. A more ‘intelligent’ question that acknowledged the impossibility of saying right now would simply invite an affirmative answer and extract no news.
    To be honest better no news then wasting everyone's time and intelligence
    Those with the intelligence to think to the next level aren’t having their time wasted.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,557
    Carnyx said:

    The Guardian story smells like one of their classics where they miss out some crucial detail.

    They actually mentioned the crucial detail. Of course there's still way she & family were treated.

    By any chance, do we have an actual UK immigration lawyer who is qualified to weigh in on this?
    BTW this has just appeared -

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/14/stop-locking-up-eu-citizens-in-removal-centres-uk-ministers-tell-border-officials
    “where possible a removal will take place imminently and the individual will remain at the airport until the flight”.
  • glwglw Posts: 7,688
    stodge said:

    There's something here doesn't make sense - what is it about this particular Variant that has suddenly caused a change in vaccination policy which has been consistent since New Year? Is it perhaps more serious than we have been led to believe?

    If it really is 50% more transmissible than even the Kent variant then the issue must be the number of cases balloons rapidly, even if mortality is similar with the Indian variant. I would guess that they are keen to get the most vulnerable fully vaccinated before the case numbers really take off. So it's a timing issue more than anything. i.e. The post lockdown surge is anticipated to occur sooner with the Indian variant.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 2,367
    stodge said:

    I love the way the Labour and the media, who struggle to even get the daily stats right latch on to some idea and push it, todays it all about all over 16s getting jabbed. Now as far as I know only over 18 years are cleared at the moment and like the we need to jab all the teachers push, I doubt they have done any or have access to any modelling on the effectiveness of different strategic approaches. But it doesn't stop them talking about it for hours.

    I presume we will at some point soon get a paper released on this and why the government have gone for reduction to 8 weeks for 2nd doses.

    Reasons to shorten the 2nd dose interval

    - Get the over 50s too maximum immunity faster
    - The T-cell thing that was mentioned in the Guardian report.
    - All of the above
    - ???
    Wouldn't it be more effective to get first vaccinations into as many as people to reduce the numbers who might a) have serious problems if contracting the Indian Variant and b) could potentially transmit the Variant?

    There's something here doesn't make sense - what is it about this particular Variant that has suddenly caused a change in vaccination policy which has been consistent since New Year? Is it perhaps more serious than we have been led to believe?

    The line to now has been the degree of immunity existing 11 weeks after a fist vaccination is high (the reason we moved from the 3 weeks recommended by Pfizer to 12 weeks). Now, it seems the push is to get second vaccinations into those most at risk but the emphasis until now has been to get first vaccinations into as many people as before.

    It's been 9 weeks since my first vaccination and I'm due my second in a fortnight - am I going to be contacted for an earlier appointment? It all smacks of something more serious we're not being told.

    Needless to say, postponing Monday's next stage of "freedom" would have been politically suicidal for Johnson so we're going to have to go with it and see what (if anything) happens. Too many people have vested too much in the final lifting of restrictions on 21/6 for it not to happen.
    The 8 week move feels utterly bonkers if it affects the speed of first dose roll out, so the only way I can rationalise is that they now have sufficient Az to race through 2nd doses with, and which are more or less useless for first doses now, so they might as well crack on and use it. I just hope they're building overall jabbing capacity so we can start doing 4 or 5 hundred thousand of each in a day and get this thing over with.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,449

    RH1992 said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    As much as I agree that it's heavy handed (if you ask me the Home Office is rotten to the core and needs to be dismantled and rebuilt from scratch), why would the European negotiating teams be "taking notes"?

    We're not in the EU and we have our own immigration policy. We're treating them how we would treat non-EU nationals now. We have no obligation to give them special treatment and I object to The Guardian complaining about the plight of white Europeans having to stay a night in detention when people fleeing persecution have been locked up in these places for weeks or months on end unfairly.
    No Britons have been detained offsite from ports or airport in EU detention centres so far, let alone for a week ; that's why the Europeans will be taking notes.

    It does also serve an additional useful purpose of showing the routine treatment for many others from around the world, too, though, as you say, often irrespective of whether they are genuine refugees or not.
    Are you sure about that? Germany routinely puts people in prison while awaiting deportation.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,475

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is grim

    Israeli Jews chuckling as they talk about wiping out the Arabs. Not settlers, "normal" folk

    https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393015740291162120?s=20


    Unfortunately, I can believe this is true. I was in Israel ten years ago and I heard very racist stuff from kids, and I feared for the future, then

    “We conquered these places.... they are ours”.

    “Devine justice”.

    Yuck.

    It’s the same lines you get from IS in reverse.

    I do have some limited empathy on the basis that I might just want to carpet bomb Dublin, irrespective of who started the dispute, if the Irish lobbed rockets at us every night for a week; but empathy on an emotional level only. We need to walk them back from the ledge or this will just get worse and worse.
    When I was in Israel ten years ago I witnessed horrible racist chanting at football grounds. It's a major problem in Israeli football

    "Beitar Jerusalem fans: 'Here we are, we're the most racist football team in the country'"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJOV_cN-JP8

    It was largely kids age 12-20, and it was obvious what lay ahead. It is a perverse irony that some Jews have turned into Nazis
    Yes, I’ve always been careful about the sensitivity of that analogy, but it’s hard not to think of it more and more.

    Because this is the internet, and you’re only ever one step away from being called all sorts of names, I will also emphasise that I have no time at all for Hammas. But then the passing of the PLO and a chance for peace was kind of the Israeli’s fault too.
    As regards the fevered digital debate of this issue in the UK, I think both sides merit a tongue lashing and I'm minded to give them one here and now.

    You get some on the left with no direct connection to the conflict who immerse themselves in the Palestinian cause and talk about it incessantly as if this particular oppression by a US enabled Israel is THE most appalling thing that's happening in the world today, or has ever happened in all of history. There are a handful like this in my local Labour party. Or there were, don't know if the end of Jeremy has meant the end of them too.

    Now it could well be that this is driven by an anti-imperialist mindset rather than an antisemitic one (almost certainly is in most cases) but given most Jews live in Israel or America it's difficult - if you're also a bit thick and prone to conspiracy theory stuff - to stop the slide into something so close to antisemitism that it's antisemitism.

    Then you have the other side and oh dear what a cesspit. Supporting an evil undertaking (the systematic treatment of a people as if they were less than human) on the grounds of "Israel's right to defend itself". Or shrugging and saying "Six of one, half a dozen of the other" when, given the imbalance in casualties, you have to consider an Arab life to be worth a fraction of an Israeli one to get to such an equivalence.

    And yes, sorry in advance, since I know some on here have a fit of the vapours at the very mention of the R word, but race is a factor. It's no co-incidence that people with white supremacy sympathies are prominent amongst those who, come what may, defend Israel to the hilt. These people neither have a direct connection to the conflict. They are the mirror of the unhinged lefties above.

    In fact they are (for me) a good deal more unsavoury. Why? Because the unhinged lefties are usually tumbling into antisemitism through anti-imperialism plus lack of brains. Whereas these people are expressing their pre-existing, innate racism through the Arab Israeli conflict. PLUS lack of brains.
    I pretty much agree with all of that, and linked to it I therefore lament the lack of any serious discussion on the issue. The West (and obviously, mostly still the US) still has the power to change things (a bit, at least). But we don’t and we won’t because of the domestic politics of it all.
    Another plus one. Was involved in a Track 2 meeting many aeons ago. It is not just the British political factions talking past each other. As one Egyptian told me: "Egypt has been around for thousands of years - if we cease to exist for a few decades we know we will be back. Israel has been in existence on 50 years. They don't have our confidence."

    The issue is, how do we get the parties to put their long and complicated history and associated psychological baggage to one side and focus on what can work going forward.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,264

    RH1992 said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    As much as I agree that it's heavy handed (if you ask me the Home Office is rotten to the core and needs to be dismantled and rebuilt from scratch), why would the European negotiating teams be "taking notes"?

    We're not in the EU and we have our own immigration policy. We're treating them how we would treat non-EU nationals now. We have no obligation to give them special treatment and I object to The Guardian complaining about the plight of white Europeans having to stay a night in detention when people fleeing persecution have been locked up in these places for weeks or months on end unfairly.
    No Britons have been detained offsite from ports or airport in EU detention centres so far, let alone for a week ; that's why the Europeans will be taking notes.

    It does also serve an additional useful purpose of showing the routine treatment for many others from around the world, too, though, as you say, often irrespective of whether they are genuine refugees or not.
    Are you sure about that? Germany routinely puts people in prison while awaiting deportation.
    In summary, EU good, UK bad. ;)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,785
    Off topic, but excellent light reading - the FBI's file on Larry Flynt is well worth a read:

    https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7evg4/larry-flynt-fbi-file-hustler

    A statement in the file from an unnamed informant claimed Flynt had sought help from an alcoholic mercenary and a private investigator to wire his wheelchair with explosives so he could blow himself up during his 1983 Supreme Court hearing and take all the justices with him.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,483
    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is grim

    Israeli Jews chuckling as they talk about wiping out the Arabs. Not settlers, "normal" folk

    https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393015740291162120?s=20


    Unfortunately, I can believe this is true. I was in Israel ten years ago and I heard very racist stuff from kids, and I feared for the future, then

    “We conquered these places.... they are ours”.

    “Devine justice”.

    Yuck.

    It’s the same lines you get from IS in reverse.

    I do have some limited empathy on the basis that I might just want to carpet bomb Dublin, irrespective of who started the dispute, if the Irish lobbed rockets at us every night for a week; but empathy on an emotional level only. We need to walk them back from the ledge or this will just get worse and worse.
    When I was in Israel ten years ago I witnessed horrible racist chanting at football grounds. It's a major problem in Israeli football

    "Beitar Jerusalem fans: 'Here we are, we're the most racist football team in the country'"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJOV_cN-JP8

    It was largely kids age 12-20, and it was obvious what lay ahead. It is a perverse irony that some Jews have turned into Nazis
    Yes, I’ve always been careful about the sensitivity of that analogy, but it’s hard not to think of it more and more.

    Because this is the internet, and you’re only ever one step away from being called all sorts of names, I will also emphasise that I have no time at all for Hammas. But then the passing of the PLO and a chance for peace was kind of the Israeli’s fault too.
    As regards the fevered digital debate of this issue in the UK, I think both sides merit a tongue lashing and I'm minded to give them one here and now.

    You get some on the left with no direct connection to the conflict who immerse themselves in the Palestinian cause and talk about it incessantly as if this particular oppression by a US enabled Israel is THE most appalling thing that's happening in the world today, or has ever happened in all of history. There are a handful like this in my local Labour party. Or there were, don't know if the end of Jeremy has meant the end of them too.

    Now it could well be that this is driven by an anti-imperialist mindset rather than an antisemitic one (almost certainly is in most cases) but given most Jews live in Israel or America it's difficult - if you're also a bit thick and prone to conspiracy theory stuff - to stop the slide into something so close to antisemitism that it's antisemitism.

    Then you have the other side and oh dear what a cesspit. Supporting an evil undertaking (the systematic treatment of a people as if they were less than human) on the grounds of "Israel's right to defend itself". Or shrugging and saying "Six of one, half a dozen of the other" when, given the imbalance in casualties, you have to consider an Arab life to be worth a fraction of an Israeli one to get to such an equivalence.

    And yes, sorry in advance, since I know some on here have a fit of the vapours at the very mention of the R word, but race is a factor. It's no co-incidence that people with white supremacy sympathies are prominent amongst those who, come what may, defend Israel to the hilt. These people neither have a direct connection to the conflict. They are the mirror of the unhinged lefties above.

    In fact they are (for me) a good deal more unsavoury. Why? Because the unhinged lefties are usually tumbling into antisemitism through anti-imperialism plus lack of brains. Whereas these people are expressing their pre-existing, innate racism through the Arab Israeli conflict. PLUS lack of brains.
    I pretty much agree with all of that, and linked to it I therefore lament the lack of any serious discussion on the issue. The West (and obviously, mostly still the US) still has the power to change things (a bit, at least). But we don’t and we won’t because of the domestic politics of it all.
    Another plus one. Was involved in a Track 2 meeting many aeons ago. It is not just the British political factions talking past each other. As one Egyptian told me: "Egypt has been around for thousands of years - if we cease to exist for a few decades we know we will be back. Israel has been in existence on 50 years. They don't have our confidence."

    The issue is, how do we get the parties to put their long and complicated history and associated psychological baggage to one side and focus on what can work going forward.
    The general silence of liberal America on Gaza is quite something to behold. Black Lives Matter but Palestinian Lives..... Don't?

    This is especially perplexing when Israel is doing to Palestine pretty much exactly what Derek Chauvin did to George Floyd. A slow, steady asphyxiation, laced with contempt, apparently untroubled by the consequences
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,042
    Leon said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    More and more bizarre

    Israeli "police" actually wearing the Totenkopf. Like the Waffen SS

    https://twitter.com/abgutman/status/1393215918055071744?s=20


    "Are we the baddies?"

    To be precise: this is the Punisher logo, oft worn by crypto-fascist types in US police forces, much to the disgust of it’s creator.

    See https://popula.com/2019/02/24/about-face/ for more on this.
    Very interesting, thanks

    Elements in the Israeli military forces actively embracing their "crypto-Fascism" is an interesting new twist
    It might have been useful to have the the other three Tweets in the thread in the original post...

    Israel Police statement: "it's a detective squad that was dispatched to Jaffa as part of the targeted effort to prevent unrest and keep the public's peace and security. The sticker on one of the vests wasn't of the police so it was removed."
    https://twitter.com/abgutman/status/1393216788192759808

    How do you, as a Jew, wear a skull tag -- a symbol of the SS -- on a militarized uniform? (And no, I'm not making a comparison)
    https://twitter.com/abgutman/status/1393219294864068609/photo/2

    I know it's the punisher logo. I know it's not the SS logo. A skull on a uniform has a certain connotation. If Hamas fighters started to use the Punisher's logo you bet Israeli media would have made that connection.
    https://twitter.com/abgutman/status/1393221955789205506

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,785
    For the record, if said young lady said (as it appears she did) that she was coming to the UK to work without a visa, then it was absolutely the right thing to refuse her entry.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,470
    algarkirk said:

    There's a widespread expectation among Westminster-based journalists and foreign correspondents reporting from London that a huge constitutional bust up between Sturgeon and Johnson is inevitable. But it's not clear the British government has to do anything 1/9
    ....

    In either event, the constitutional clash between London and Edinburgh doesn't happen. The 2nd referendum is stopped by Scots in Scottish courts by Scottish judges, with the Johnson government looking on. Not quite the SNP playbook. 9/9


    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1393201453863419909?s=20

    Though I think this is probably right, there is the possibility that sec 33 of the Act means that only the AG or Scottish law officers can challenge a Scottish act as being outwith its powers. Also the four week period for doing so means that there is danger in doing nothing.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/section/33


    We’re still talking about Indy ref? It is clear the SNP aren’t all clear, or confident, on next steps.

    It’s also clear the SNP have a challenge in overcoming some of the basic financials / structures post Indy.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,500
    RobD said:

    RH1992 said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    As much as I agree that it's heavy handed (if you ask me the Home Office is rotten to the core and needs to be dismantled and rebuilt from scratch), why would the European negotiating teams be "taking notes"?

    We're not in the EU and we have our own immigration policy. We're treating them how we would treat non-EU nationals now. We have no obligation to give them special treatment and I object to The Guardian complaining about the plight of white Europeans having to stay a night in detention when people fleeing persecution have been locked up in these places for weeks or months on end unfairly.
    No Britons have been detained offsite from ports or airport in EU detention centres so far, let alone for a week ; that's why the Europeans will be taking notes.

    It does also serve an additional useful purpose of showing the routine treatment for many others from around the world, too, though, as you say, often irrespective of whether they are genuine refugees or not.
    Are you sure about that? Germany routinely puts people in prison while awaiting deportation.
    In summary, EU good, UK bad. ;)
    Try travelling around Africa without the right visas.....
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 2,367
    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is grim

    Israeli Jews chuckling as they talk about wiping out the Arabs. Not settlers, "normal" folk

    https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393015740291162120?s=20


    Unfortunately, I can believe this is true. I was in Israel ten years ago and I heard very racist stuff from kids, and I feared for the future, then

    “We conquered these places.... they are ours”.

    “Devine justice”.

    Yuck.

    It’s the same lines you get from IS in reverse.

    I do have some limited empathy on the basis that I might just want to carpet bomb Dublin, irrespective of who started the dispute, if the Irish lobbed rockets at us every night for a week; but empathy on an emotional level only. We need to walk them back from the ledge or this will just get worse and worse.
    When I was in Israel ten years ago I witnessed horrible racist chanting at football grounds. It's a major problem in Israeli football

    "Beitar Jerusalem fans: 'Here we are, we're the most racist football team in the country'"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJOV_cN-JP8

    It was largely kids age 12-20, and it was obvious what lay ahead. It is a perverse irony that some Jews have turned into Nazis
    Yes, I’ve always been careful about the sensitivity of that analogy, but it’s hard not to think of it more and more.

    Because this is the internet, and you’re only ever one step away from being called all sorts of names, I will also emphasise that I have no time at all for Hammas. But then the passing of the PLO and a chance for peace was kind of the Israeli’s fault too.
    As regards the fevered digital debate of this issue in the UK, I think both sides merit a tongue lashing and I'm minded to give them one here and now.

    You get some on the left with no direct connection to the conflict who immerse themselves in the Palestinian cause and talk about it incessantly as if this particular oppression by a US enabled Israel is THE most appalling thing that's happening in the world today, or has ever happened in all of history. There are a handful like this in my local Labour party. Or there were, don't know if the end of Jeremy has meant the end of them too.

    Now it could well be that this is driven by an anti-imperialist mindset rather than an antisemitic one (almost certainly is in most cases) but given most Jews live in Israel or America it's difficult - if you're also a bit thick and prone to conspiracy theory stuff - to stop the slide into something so close to antisemitism that it's antisemitism.

    Then you have the other side and oh dear what a cesspit. Supporting an evil undertaking (the systematic treatment of a people as if they were less than human) on the grounds of "Israel's right to defend itself". Or shrugging and saying "Six of one, half a dozen of the other" when, given the imbalance in casualties, you have to consider an Arab life to be worth a fraction of an Israeli one to get to such an equivalence.

    And yes, sorry in advance, since I know some on here have a fit of the vapours at the very mention of the R word, but race is a factor. It's no co-incidence that people with white supremacy sympathies are prominent amongst those who, come what may, defend Israel to the hilt. These people neither have a direct connection to the conflict. They are the mirror of the unhinged lefties above.

    In fact they are (for me) a good deal more unsavoury. Why? Because the unhinged lefties are usually tumbling into antisemitism through anti-imperialism plus lack of brains. Whereas these people are expressing their pre-existing, innate racism through the Arab Israeli conflict. PLUS lack of brains.
    I pretty much agree with all of that, and linked to it I therefore lament the lack of any serious discussion on the issue. The West (and obviously, mostly still the US) still has the power to change things (a bit, at least). But we don’t and we won’t because of the domestic politics of it all.
    Another plus one. Was involved in a Track 2 meeting many aeons ago. It is not just the British political factions talking past each other. As one Egyptian told me: "Egypt has been around for thousands of years - if we cease to exist for a few decades we know we will be back. Israel has been in existence on 50 years. They don't have our confidence."

    The issue is, how do we get the parties to put their long and complicated history and associated psychological baggage to one side and focus on what can work going forward.
    The general silence of liberal America on Gaza is quite something to behold. Black Lives Matter but Palestinian Lives..... Don't?

    This is especially perplexing when Israel is doing to Palestine pretty much exactly what Derek Chauvin did to George Floyd. A slow, steady asphyxiation, laced with contempt, apparently untroubled by the consequences
    The problem is surrounding Arab countries only too happy to encourage Hamas to provoke Israel, and then Israely leadership who know what the rest of the world think of them whether they respond or not. Ultimately there is a stable equilibrium on both sides for the Arabs to keep poking and Israel to keep hitting back, and the people stuck in the middle getting hurt have no real say in the process.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,785

    Carnyx said:

    The Guardian story smells like one of their classics where they miss out some crucial detail.

    They actually mentioned the crucial detail. Of course there's still way she & family were treated.

    By any chance, do we have an actual UK immigration lawyer who is qualified to weigh in on this?
    BTW this has just appeared -

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/14/stop-locking-up-eu-citizens-in-removal-centres-uk-ministers-tell-border-officials
    “where possible a removal will take place imminently and the individual will remain at the airport until the flight”.
    Which is exactly how it should work - *and* it moves the burden for checking passengers prior to arrival onto the airlines.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 24,463
    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    ...

    People like Beckett cannot see Priti Patel, Sajid Javid, Trever Phillips etc... as minorities because minorities support their views. It's a really ugly blind spot.


    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1393160472908771332?s=20

    The far left think Thatcher didn’t really count as a female PM too. Ethnic minorities and women need to know their place
    I think what they really can't stand is that she got to the top an stayed there for 11 years on merit, without quotas, female-only shortlists or positive discirmination of any kind.

    And that she had more balls than any of them.
    Overthinking it a bit. It was mainly her politics wot done it. Although there was, no question, some misogyny thrown in. Same with all high profile women. Also medium and low profile ones. Behave like (we think) a woman should or you'll get a roasting. Fact, you might get one anyway.
    Er, unfortunate wording, 'roasting' - presumably not intended.
    Completely unintended yes. I wasn't aware of any meaning other than the one I was going for.
  • FossFoss Posts: 422
    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is grim

    Israeli Jews chuckling as they talk about wiping out the Arabs. Not settlers, "normal" folk

    https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393015740291162120?s=20


    Unfortunately, I can believe this is true. I was in Israel ten years ago and I heard very racist stuff from kids, and I feared for the future, then

    “We conquered these places.... they are ours”.

    “Devine justice”.

    Yuck.

    It’s the same lines you get from IS in reverse.

    I do have some limited empathy on the basis that I might just want to carpet bomb Dublin, irrespective of who started the dispute, if the Irish lobbed rockets at us every night for a week; but empathy on an emotional level only. We need to walk them back from the ledge or this will just get worse and worse.
    When I was in Israel ten years ago I witnessed horrible racist chanting at football grounds. It's a major problem in Israeli football

    "Beitar Jerusalem fans: 'Here we are, we're the most racist football team in the country'"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJOV_cN-JP8

    It was largely kids age 12-20, and it was obvious what lay ahead. It is a perverse irony that some Jews have turned into Nazis
    Yes, I’ve always been careful about the sensitivity of that analogy, but it’s hard not to think of it more and more.

    Because this is the internet, and you’re only ever one step away from being called all sorts of names, I will also emphasise that I have no time at all for Hammas. But then the passing of the PLO and a chance for peace was kind of the Israeli’s fault too.
    As regards the fevered digital debate of this issue in the UK, I think both sides merit a tongue lashing and I'm minded to give them one here and now.

    You get some on the left with no direct connection to the conflict who immerse themselves in the Palestinian cause and talk about it incessantly as if this particular oppression by a US enabled Israel is THE most appalling thing that's happening in the world today, or has ever happened in all of history. There are a handful like this in my local Labour party. Or there were, don't know if the end of Jeremy has meant the end of them too.

    Now it could well be that this is driven by an anti-imperialist mindset rather than an antisemitic one (almost certainly is in most cases) but given most Jews live in Israel or America it's difficult - if you're also a bit thick and prone to conspiracy theory stuff - to stop the slide into something so close to antisemitism that it's antisemitism.

    Then you have the other side and oh dear what a cesspit. Supporting an evil undertaking (the systematic treatment of a people as if they were less than human) on the grounds of "Israel's right to defend itself". Or shrugging and saying "Six of one, half a dozen of the other" when, given the imbalance in casualties, you have to consider an Arab life to be worth a fraction of an Israeli one to get to such an equivalence.

    And yes, sorry in advance, since I know some on here have a fit of the vapours at the very mention of the R word, but race is a factor. It's no co-incidence that people with white supremacy sympathies are prominent amongst those who, come what may, defend Israel to the hilt. These people neither have a direct connection to the conflict. They are the mirror of the unhinged lefties above.

    In fact they are (for me) a good deal more unsavoury. Why? Because the unhinged lefties are usually tumbling into antisemitism through anti-imperialism plus lack of brains. Whereas these people are expressing their pre-existing, innate racism through the Arab Israeli conflict. PLUS lack of brains.
    I pretty much agree with all of that, and linked to it I therefore lament the lack of any serious discussion on the issue. The West (and obviously, mostly still the US) still has the power to change things (a bit, at least). But we don’t and we won’t because of the domestic politics of it all.
    Another plus one. Was involved in a Track 2 meeting many aeons ago. It is not just the British political factions talking past each other. As one Egyptian told me: "Egypt has been around for thousands of years - if we cease to exist for a few decades we know we will be back. Israel has been in existence on 50 years. They don't have our confidence."

    The issue is, how do we get the parties to put their long and complicated history and associated psychological baggage to one side and focus on what can work going forward.
    The general silence of liberal America on Gaza is quite something to behold. Black Lives Matter but Palestinian Lives..... Don't?

    This is especially perplexing when Israel is doing to Palestine pretty much exactly what Derek Chauvin did to George Floyd. A slow, steady asphyxiation, laced with contempt, apparently untroubled by the consequences
    Complain too much and Biden will find himself stuck in America's next Afghanistan.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 14,782
    Was talking with a Jewish Israeli friend yesterday. He said, "Both sides have a little bit of right on their side.
    But a heck of a lot more wrong."
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 24,463
    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    There's a widespread expectation among Westminster-based journalists and foreign correspondents reporting from London that a huge constitutional bust up between Sturgeon and Johnson is inevitable. But it's not clear the British government has to do anything 1/9
    ....

    In either event, the constitutional clash between London and Edinburgh doesn't happen. The 2nd referendum is stopped by Scots in Scottish courts by Scottish judges, with the Johnson government looking on. Not quite the SNP playbook. 9/9


    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1393201453863419909?s=20

    Very plausable
    Doesn't surprise me, esp after the prorogation case (which had Unionists astounded as the UKSC wouldn't override Scots law as she is spoke in Parliament Square - remember).

    The law does need to be checked and tested, but the issue always was that the law itself was incompatible with the mandates conferred on the Scottish Pmt. Which will put the ball in the Westminster court sooner or later.
    The MSPs *can’t* get a mandate that is ultra vires. It simply isn’t a mandate.

    It’s like a candidate for PCC in Yorkshire making a declaration of war on Germany the centrepiece of his manifesto. Even if he’s elected it doesn’t mean he has a mandate to declare war on Germany
    That's right, if you are relying solely on a legal technicality, but it expresses what is wanted - a change in the law, and that is in the political realm [edit]. And I'm off to finish what I am doing as we are now at the same old logjam.
    Around 50% want a further referendum. Not an overwhelming case.
    More than half the Scottish Pmt. And most of the Scottish representation in HoC. Which is the way things work in a representative democracy. Which is where we were before. So I'll change the subject now and admire the blue sky asnd puffy white clouds outside.
    Not in ultra vires matters

    - Holyrood has no authority in this matter. It’s composition is irrelevant
    - Westminster doesn’t have a nationalist majority
    - The case that the SNP can make is that there is a moral imperative for Westminster to grant a referendum because there is overwhelming demand. But if you add all the votes cast in the latest election is about 50/50.
    This doesn't work. It's weak. Does Johnson's mandate come from 360 odd seats or 43% of the vote?

    There IS a democratic mandate to seek a Sindy vote. Westminster DOES have the legal power to frustrate it.

    That's the situation.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,459
    Channel 4 News — academic arguing for the lockdown to be extended.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 29,590
    Shoulda been involved in the slave trade, lads.

    https://twitter.com/thedaillew/status/1393242588820475906?s=21
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    Andy_JS said:

    Channel 4 News — academic arguing for the lockdown to be extended.

    Member of Independent Sage?
  • eekeek Posts: 14,824
    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    There's a widespread expectation among Westminster-based journalists and foreign correspondents reporting from London that a huge constitutional bust up between Sturgeon and Johnson is inevitable. But it's not clear the British government has to do anything 1/9
    ....

    In either event, the constitutional clash between London and Edinburgh doesn't happen. The 2nd referendum is stopped by Scots in Scottish courts by Scottish judges, with the Johnson government looking on. Not quite the SNP playbook. 9/9


    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1393201453863419909?s=20

    Very plausable
    Doesn't surprise me, esp after the prorogation case (which had Unionists astounded as the UKSC wouldn't override Scots law as she is spoke in Parliament Square - remember).

    The law does need to be checked and tested, but the issue always was that the law itself was incompatible with the mandates conferred on the Scottish Pmt. Which will put the ball in the Westminster court sooner or later.
    The MSPs *can’t* get a mandate that is ultra vires. It simply isn’t a mandate.

    It’s like a candidate for PCC in Yorkshire making a declaration of war on Germany the centrepiece of his manifesto. Even if he’s elected it doesn’t mean he has a mandate to declare war on Germany
    That's right, if you are relying solely on a legal technicality, but it expresses what is wanted - a change in the law, and that is in the political realm [edit]. And I'm off to finish what I am doing as we are now at the same old logjam.
    Around 50% want a further referendum. Not an overwhelming case.
    More than half the Scottish Pmt. And most of the Scottish representation in HoC. Which is the way things work in a representative democracy. Which is where we were before. So I'll change the subject now and admire the blue sky asnd puffy white clouds outside.
    Not in ultra vires matters

    - Holyrood has no authority in this matter. It’s composition is irrelevant
    - Westminster doesn’t have a nationalist majority
    - The case that the SNP can make is that there is a moral imperative for Westminster to grant a referendum because there is overwhelming demand. But if you add all the votes cast in the latest election is about 50/50.
    This doesn't work. It's weak. Does Johnson's mandate come from 360 odd seats or 43% of the vote?

    There IS a democratic mandate to seek a Sindy vote. Westminster DOES have the legal power to frustrate it.

    That's the situation.
    But it would be a lot easier all round if it was frustrated within Scotland in such a way that the Westminster was not involved
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 24,463

    TimS said:

    Only time I ever voted Labour in a GE was in the 1997 landslide. Sadly also the only time I was (unbeknownst to the naive young me) in a Lib Dem-Tory marginal. Since which time I've lived in safe Labour seats and voted Lib Dem.

    There are many of you. Although I never did, I can think of several current Tories (soft and hard) who voted for Blair in 1997 and 2001... @AndyJS @Pulpstar @Big_G_NorthWales @isam @Philip_Thompson .. and although sadly no longer with us @plato (RIP). @Cyclefree feels like a floating voter to me.

    I'll believe Labour are on the cusp of power again when a couple of those start talking warmly about them.
    Interesting post. Looks a hard sell then.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,797
    Andy_JS said:

    Channel 4 News — academic arguing for the lockdown to be extended.

    What do some of these academics see as the COVID endgame?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,070
    maaarsh said:

    stodge said:

    I love the way the Labour and the media, who struggle to even get the daily stats right latch on to some idea and push it, todays it all about all over 16s getting jabbed. Now as far as I know only over 18 years are cleared at the moment and like the we need to jab all the teachers push, I doubt they have done any or have access to any modelling on the effectiveness of different strategic approaches. But it doesn't stop them talking about it for hours.

    I presume we will at some point soon get a paper released on this and why the government have gone for reduction to 8 weeks for 2nd doses.

    Reasons to shorten the 2nd dose interval

    - Get the over 50s too maximum immunity faster
    - The T-cell thing that was mentioned in the Guardian report.
    - All of the above
    - ???
    Wouldn't it be more effective to get first vaccinations into as many as people to reduce the numbers who might a) have serious problems if contracting the Indian Variant and b) could potentially transmit the Variant?

    There's something here doesn't make sense - what is it about this particular Variant that has suddenly caused a change in vaccination policy which has been consistent since New Year? Is it perhaps more serious than we have been led to believe?

    The line to now has been the degree of immunity existing 11 weeks after a fist vaccination is high (the reason we moved from the 3 weeks recommended by Pfizer to 12 weeks). Now, it seems the push is to get second vaccinations into those most at risk but the emphasis until now has been to get first vaccinations into as many people as before.

    It's been 9 weeks since my first vaccination and I'm due my second in a fortnight - am I going to be contacted for an earlier appointment? It all smacks of something more serious we're not being told.

    Needless to say, postponing Monday's next stage of "freedom" would have been politically suicidal for Johnson so we're going to have to go with it and see what (if anything) happens. Too many people have vested too much in the final lifting of restrictions on 21/6 for it not to happen.
    The 8 week move feels utterly bonkers if it affects the speed of first dose roll out, so the only way I can rationalise is that they now have sufficient Az to race through 2nd doses with, and which are more or less useless for first doses now, so they might as well crack on and use it. I just hope they're building overall jabbing capacity so we can start doing 4 or 5 hundred thousand of each in a day and get this thing over with.
    It's not going to. The second dose debt falls mostly on AZ, under 40s are getting Pfizer and Moderna.
  • FossFoss Posts: 422
    alex_ said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Channel 4 News — academic arguing for the lockdown to be extended.

    What do some of these academics see as the COVID endgame?
    Accelerationism?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,264
    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    There's a widespread expectation among Westminster-based journalists and foreign correspondents reporting from London that a huge constitutional bust up between Sturgeon and Johnson is inevitable. But it's not clear the British government has to do anything 1/9
    ....

    In either event, the constitutional clash between London and Edinburgh doesn't happen. The 2nd referendum is stopped by Scots in Scottish courts by Scottish judges, with the Johnson government looking on. Not quite the SNP playbook. 9/9


    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1393201453863419909?s=20

    Very plausable
    Doesn't surprise me, esp after the prorogation case (which had Unionists astounded as the UKSC wouldn't override Scots law as she is spoke in Parliament Square - remember).

    The law does need to be checked and tested, but the issue always was that the law itself was incompatible with the mandates conferred on the Scottish Pmt. Which will put the ball in the Westminster court sooner or later.
    The MSPs *can’t* get a mandate that is ultra vires. It simply isn’t a mandate.

    It’s like a candidate for PCC in Yorkshire making a declaration of war on Germany the centrepiece of his manifesto. Even if he’s elected it doesn’t mean he has a mandate to declare war on Germany
    That's right, if you are relying solely on a legal technicality, but it expresses what is wanted - a change in the law, and that is in the political realm [edit]. And I'm off to finish what I am doing as we are now at the same old logjam.
    Around 50% want a further referendum. Not an overwhelming case.
    More than half the Scottish Pmt. And most of the Scottish representation in HoC. Which is the way things work in a representative democracy. Which is where we were before. So I'll change the subject now and admire the blue sky asnd puffy white clouds outside.
    Not in ultra vires matters

    - Holyrood has no authority in this matter. It’s composition is irrelevant
    - Westminster doesn’t have a nationalist majority
    - The case that the SNP can make is that there is a moral imperative for Westminster to grant a referendum because there is overwhelming demand. But if you add all the votes cast in the latest election is about 50/50.
    This doesn't work. It's weak. Does Johnson's mandate come from 360 odd seats or 43% of the vote?

    There IS a democratic mandate to seek a Sindy vote. Westminster DOES have the legal power to frustrate it.

    That's the situation.
    From his majority of seats

    Essentially the only legal course the SNP has is to persuade Westminster to approve a referendum. My argument is that is dependent on the recent age of voters who supported parties that wanted a referendum. I don’t think that is unreasonable.

    Whether 50/50 is a strong case is a judgement call. I don’t believe it is
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,412
    carnforth said:

    Phil said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    Sadly, it isn't legal for this lady to come to the UK to visit her uncle at the moment, because of the pandemic.

    It's not always possible to put a person on the next flight back at the moment, because there are not many flights each day.

    Colnbrook immigration centre is right next to heathrow.

    What would you have them do? Make her sleep in the airport on a bench overnight? Let her in anyway despite the coronavirus risk?
    Once again, the only thing that will interest the Europeans is that they haven't been sending people offsite to detention centres for a week. They will probably reciprocate.
    I have no objection to EU countries reciprocating. Why should they not?

    What have the Europeans been doing with British people who turn up without a proper reason? Just letting them in to their country anyway? Making them sleep in the airport?
    My partner's aunt and uncle have travelled between their homes in England and France on an approximately monthly basis, depending on the relative state of the pandemic, and their own particular whims and convenience.
    They have at no stage quarantined, nor been questioned by any bugger in authority at all.
    Quite so. You can be sure if there'd been anything remotely comparable it would have been all over the tabloid front pages already, too.
    There have been plenty of cases of Brits being refused entry, you just have to search for them.
    Isn't that Brits who told the immigration staff that they were resident in Spain, who had not followed the proper procedures for getting a residence card?

    And, for the record, I would much rather be refused entry, spend the night at the airport and fly home, than spend a week in Colnbrook detention centre. Which - according to Wikipedia - is "built to Class B prison standards".
    Yeah, denied entry because they had insufficient evidence for their trip. Exactly as what happened here. Hard to get outraged over such behaviour when it happens all the time. As for the long stay before their return flight, that does suggest there is more to that particular case than is being reported.
    Look, we don't know the full details, and it's entirely possible there is more to the story.

    But:

    (1) Immigration detention centres are not like hotel quarantines - they are much more like prisons. There's a world of difference between refusing entry to someone who came without proper documentation (when it is the airline's duty to get them back) and putting someone in a one of these centres for a week.

    (2) I've posted the link to the government's travel to the UK site. There are no restrictions on Italians entering the UK posted on there. Now it's possible that there are restrictions that are not published on the "what you need to know before travelling to the UK website", but it is notable that she clearly didn't know them, and nor did the airline.
    Of course there are restrictions on Italians entering the UK. The story was about people trying to enter to look for jobs. While EU citizens might have been able to do that last year, they can't do that now.
    @RobD - post me a link to the UK Government website showing the restrictions then.

    Because I've searched, and I've not found one.

    And https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control doesn't show any restrictions, beyond a requirement for Covid tests prior to departure, a requirement to self quarantine, and two negative Covid tests.

    NOW. It's entirely possible I've missed restrictions. And there are certainly restrictons on Brits travelling abroad.

    But the UK Government does not appear to have any published restrictions on the reasons why an Italian might travel to the UK.
    These aren't Covid-specific restrictions, they are just normal restrictions. People can't just walk up to the border and be let in regardless of what they are doing. In the Guardian article it was clearly stated that they were "looking for work". Go up to the US border and say that and you'll quickly find yourself on your way home.
    That's not strictly true. One can enter the US looking for work perfectly legally - for a job interview for example. But one cannot enter the US to actually work without an appropriate visa.
    And the same is true in the UK. However, 'looking for a job' is not a permitted reason to enter (edit, in the US and the UK).
    You are permitted to enter the UK as a visitor in order to attend a pre-arranged job interview: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-visitor-permitted-activities “PA 4. A visitor may: (a) attend meetings, conferences, seminars, interviews;”

    Reading between the lines, some people are thinking that this means they can come to the UK to look for work. It doesn’t - you can only enter the UK as a visitor to attend a job interview that has already been arranged. From these accounts, you’d better have your paperwork from the company in question printed out & have contact phone numbers on hand if you don’t want to find yourself in Yarls Wood!
    So, in practical terms, better to just lie and say you're on holiday, if you don't have an interview but want to scout out the job market.
    OR in the case of the young Italian we've been discussing, her uncle should have sent her a letter scheduling her for an interview? Plus maybe a series of meetings, conferences and seminars regarding the nature of the work and her qualifications for the job?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,186

    RobD said:

    RH1992 said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    As much as I agree that it's heavy handed (if you ask me the Home Office is rotten to the core and needs to be dismantled and rebuilt from scratch), why would the European negotiating teams be "taking notes"?

    We're not in the EU and we have our own immigration policy. We're treating them how we would treat non-EU nationals now. We have no obligation to give them special treatment and I object to The Guardian complaining about the plight of white Europeans having to stay a night in detention when people fleeing persecution have been locked up in these places for weeks or months on end unfairly.
    No Britons have been detained offsite from ports or airport in EU detention centres so far, let alone for a week ; that's why the Europeans will be taking notes.

    It does also serve an additional useful purpose of showing the routine treatment for many others from around the world, too, though, as you say, often irrespective of whether they are genuine refugees or not.
    Are you sure about that? Germany routinely puts people in prison while awaiting deportation.
    In summary, EU good, UK bad. ;)
    Try travelling around Africa without the right visas.....
    Bloke I work with managed to travel to Germany on his girlfriends passport - he is a big rugby playing hairy bugger :smiley:

  • CookieCookie Posts: 4,226
    alex_ said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Channel 4 News — academic arguing for the lockdown to be extended.

    What do some of these academics see as the COVID endgame?
    Bringing down the Conservative government.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,264
    Floater said:

    RobD said:

    RH1992 said:

    "The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said.

    An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

    There is growing anger over what campaigners and MEPs have said is a “disproportionate” and “heavy-handed” implementation of post-Brexit immigration restrictions on EU citizens.

    On Friday the EU’s co-chair of the post Brexit UK-EU partnership council, Maroš Šefčovič, told a group of Romanian MEPs he would be raising it with the UK authorities.

    Giuseppe Pichierri, who has worked for the NHS for 15 years, told the Guardian he had waited for hours at Heathrow airport on 17 April with his four-year-old daughter to collect his 24-year-old niece Marta Lomartire with balloons and cards.

    But she did not show. She had been stopped, quizzed and issued with an expulsion order before being locked up in Colnbrook detention centre for the night.

    Pichierri took his tearful daughter home and was called in the middle of the night and told Lomartire was being taken into detention. “We were never approached or told where she was,” he said. The following day, despite being on call at Kingston hospital, he tracked her down to Colnbrook and had to travel to the detention centre to meet Lomartire, who was scared and upset."

    The ugly face of Brexit - and the best way to thank NHS workers. You can be certain the European negotiating teams are taking notes, as mentioned in the article, and as I mentioned yesterday.

    As much as I agree that it's heavy handed (if you ask me the Home Office is rotten to the core and needs to be dismantled and rebuilt from scratch), why would the European negotiating teams be "taking notes"?

    We're not in the EU and we have our own immigration policy. We're treating them how we would treat non-EU nationals now. We have no obligation to give them special treatment and I object to The Guardian complaining about the plight of white Europeans having to stay a night in detention when people fleeing persecution have been locked up in these places for weeks or months on end unfairly.
    No Britons have been detained offsite from ports or airport in EU detention centres so far, let alone for a week ; that's why the Europeans will be taking notes.

    It does also serve an additional useful purpose of showing the routine treatment for many others from around the world, too, though, as you say, often irrespective of whether they are genuine refugees or not.
    Are you sure about that? Germany routinely puts people in prison while awaiting deportation.
    In summary, EU good, UK bad. ;)
    Try travelling around Africa without the right visas.....
    Bloke I work with managed to travel to Germany on his girlfriends passport - he is a big rugby playing hairy bugger :smiley:

    Depends what his girlfriend looks like I suppose…
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,412
    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is grim

    Israeli Jews chuckling as they talk about wiping out the Arabs. Not settlers, "normal" folk

    https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393015740291162120?s=20


    Unfortunately, I can believe this is true. I was in Israel ten years ago and I heard very racist stuff from kids, and I feared for the future, then

    “We conquered these places.... they are ours”.

    “Devine justice”.

    Yuck.

    It’s the same lines you get from IS in reverse.

    I do have some limited empathy on the basis that I might just want to carpet bomb Dublin, irrespective of who started the dispute, if the Irish lobbed rockets at us every night for a week; but empathy on an emotional level only. We need to walk them back from the ledge or this will just get worse and worse.
    When I was in Israel ten years ago I witnessed horrible racist chanting at football grounds. It's a major problem in Israeli football

    "Beitar Jerusalem fans: 'Here we are, we're the most racist football team in the country'"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJOV_cN-JP8

    It was largely kids age 12-20, and it was obvious what lay ahead. It is a perverse irony that some Jews have turned into Nazis
    Yes, I’ve always been careful about the sensitivity of that analogy, but it’s hard not to think of it more and more.

    Because this is the internet, and you’re only ever one step away from being called all sorts of names, I will also emphasise that I have no time at all for Hammas. But then the passing of the PLO and a chance for peace was kind of the Israeli’s fault too.
    As regards the fevered digital debate of this issue in the UK, I think both sides merit a tongue lashing and I'm minded to give them one here and now.

    You get some on the left with no direct connection to the conflict who immerse themselves in the Palestinian cause and talk about it incessantly as if this particular oppression by a US enabled Israel is THE most appalling thing that's happening in the world today, or has ever happened in all of history. There are a handful like this in my local Labour party. Or there were, don't know if the end of Jeremy has meant the end of them too.

    Now it could well be that this is driven by an anti-imperialist mindset rather than an antisemitic one (almost certainly is in most cases) but given most Jews live in Israel or America it's difficult - if you're also a bit thick and prone to conspiracy theory stuff - to stop the slide into something so close to antisemitism that it's antisemitism.

    Then you have the other side and oh dear what a cesspit. Supporting an evil undertaking (the systematic treatment of a people as if they were less than human) on the grounds of "Israel's right to defend itself". Or shrugging and saying "Six of one, half a dozen of the other" when, given the imbalance in casualties, you have to consider an Arab life to be worth a fraction of an Israeli one to get to such an equivalence.

    And yes, sorry in advance, since I know some on here have a fit of the vapours at the very mention of the R word, but race is a factor. It's no co-incidence that people with white supremacy sympathies are prominent amongst those who, come what may, defend Israel to the hilt. These people neither have a direct connection to the conflict. They are the mirror of the unhinged lefties above.

    In fact they are (for me) a good deal more unsavoury. Why? Because the unhinged lefties are usually tumbling into antisemitism through anti-imperialism plus lack of brains. Whereas these people are expressing their pre-existing, innate racism through the Arab Israeli conflict. PLUS lack of brains.
    I pretty much agree with all of that, and linked to it I therefore lament the lack of any serious discussion on the issue. The West (and obviously, mostly still the US) still has the power to change things (a bit, at least). But we don’t and we won’t because of the domestic politics of it all.
    Another plus one. Was involved in a Track 2 meeting many aeons ago. It is not just the British political factions talking past each other. As one Egyptian told me: "Egypt has been around for thousands of years - if we cease to exist for a few decades we know we will be back. Israel has been in existence on 50 years. They don't have our confidence."

    The issue is, how do we get the parties to put their long and complicated history and associated psychological baggage to one side and focus on what can work going forward.
    The general silence of liberal America on Gaza is quite something to behold. Black Lives Matter but Palestinian Lives..... Don't?

    This is especially perplexing when Israel is doing to Palestine pretty much exactly what Derek Chauvin did to George Floyd. A slow, steady asphyxiation, laced with contempt, apparently untroubled by the consequences
    You do have a point.

    One distinction, is that the black lives that Black Lives Matter and the millions of all kinds and colors in the USA who support BLM to some degree - these are the lives of our fellow Americans, living in our own country and society.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,459
    LDs are 17/21 to win Chesham. Seems a bit steep...

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.183248117
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,483
    The video does not provide evidence to support this claim, but if it is right, something hideous is unfolding INSIDE Israel

    "Scenes of absolute horror as Israeli mobs descend upon the streets of Haifa, attacking Palestinians and destroying Palestinians’ cars."

    https://twitter.com/theIMEU/status/1393263608084287491?s=20
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 24,463
    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is grim

    Israeli Jews chuckling as they talk about wiping out the Arabs. Not settlers, "normal" folk

    https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393015740291162120?s=20


    Unfortunately, I can believe this is true. I was in Israel ten years ago and I heard very racist stuff from kids, and I feared for the future, then

    “We conquered these places.... they are ours”.

    “Devine justice”.

    Yuck.

    It’s the same lines you get from IS in reverse.

    I do have some limited empathy on the basis that I might just want to carpet bomb Dublin, irrespective of who started the dispute, if the Irish lobbed rockets at us every night for a week; but empathy on an emotional level only. We need to walk them back from the ledge or this will just get worse and worse.
    When I was in Israel ten years ago I witnessed horrible racist chanting at football grounds. It's a major problem in Israeli football

    "Beitar Jerusalem fans: 'Here we are, we're the most racist football team in the country'"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJOV_cN-JP8

    It was largely kids age 12-20, and it was obvious what lay ahead. It is a perverse irony that some Jews have turned into Nazis
    Yes, I’ve always been careful about the sensitivity of that analogy, but it’s hard not to think of it more and more.

    Because this is the internet, and you’re only ever one step away from being called all sorts of names, I will also emphasise that I have no time at all for Hammas. But then the passing of the PLO and a chance for peace was kind of the Israeli’s fault too.
    As regards the fevered digital debate of this issue in the UK, I think both sides merit a tongue lashing and I'm minded to give them one here and now.

    You get some on the left with no direct connection to the conflict who immerse themselves in the Palestinian cause and talk about it incessantly as if this particular oppression by a US enabled Israel is THE most appalling thing that's happening in the world today, or has ever happened in all of history. There are a handful like this in my local Labour party. Or there were, don't know if the end of Jeremy has meant the end of them too.

    Now it could well be that this is driven by an anti-imperialist mindset rather than an antisemitic one (almost certainly is in most cases) but given most Jews live in Israel or America it's difficult - if you're also a bit thick and prone to conspiracy theory stuff - to stop the slide into something so close to antisemitism that it's antisemitism.

    Then you have the other side and oh dear what a cesspit. Supporting an evil undertaking (the systematic treatment of a people as if they were less than human) on the grounds of "Israel's right to defend itself". Or shrugging and saying "Six of one, half a dozen of the other" when, given the imbalance in casualties, you have to consider an Arab life to be worth a fraction of an Israeli one to get to such an equivalence.

    And yes, sorry in advance, since I know some on here have a fit of the vapours at the very mention of the R word, but race is a factor. It's no co-incidence that people with white supremacy sympathies are prominent amongst those who, come what may, defend Israel to the hilt. These people neither have a direct connection to the conflict. They are the mirror of the unhinged lefties above.

    In fact they are (for me) a good deal more unsavoury. Why? Because the unhinged lefties are usually tumbling into antisemitism through anti-imperialism plus lack of brains. Whereas these people are expressing their pre-existing, innate racism through the Arab Israeli conflict. PLUS lack of brains.
    I pretty much agree with all of that, and linked to it I therefore lament the lack of any serious discussion on the issue. The West (and obviously, mostly still the US) still has the power to change things (a bit, at least). But we don’t and we won’t because of the domestic politics of it all.
    Another plus one. Was involved in a Track 2 meeting many aeons ago. It is not just the British political factions talking past each other. As one Egyptian told me: "Egypt has been around for thousands of years - if we cease to exist for a few decades we know we will be back. Israel has been in existence on 50 years. They don't have our confidence."

    The issue is, how do we get the parties to put their long and complicated history and associated psychological baggage to one side and focus on what can work going forward.
    The general silence of liberal America on Gaza is quite something to behold. Black Lives Matter but Palestinian Lives..... Don't?

    This is especially perplexing when Israel is doing to Palestine pretty much exactly what Derek Chauvin did to George Floyd. A slow, steady asphyxiation, laced with contempt, apparently untroubled by the consequences
    The AOC left are vocal. Who do you mean - just general liberal "types"?

    Very good comparison btw.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,139
    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    There's a widespread expectation among Westminster-based journalists and foreign correspondents reporting from London that a huge constitutional bust up between Sturgeon and Johnson is inevitable. But it's not clear the British government has to do anything 1/9
    ....

    In either event, the constitutional clash between London and Edinburgh doesn't happen. The 2nd referendum is stopped by Scots in Scottish courts by Scottish judges, with the Johnson government looking on. Not quite the SNP playbook. 9/9


    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1393201453863419909?s=20

    Very plausable
    Doesn't surprise me, esp after the prorogation case (which had Unionists astounded as the UKSC wouldn't override Scots law as she is spoke in Parliament Square - remember).

    The law does need to be checked and tested, but the issue always was that the law itself was incompatible with the mandates conferred on the Scottish Pmt. Which will put the ball in the Westminster court sooner or later.
    The MSPs *can’t* get a mandate that is ultra vires. It simply isn’t a mandate.

    It’s like a candidate for PCC in Yorkshire making a declaration of war on Germany the centrepiece of his manifesto. Even if he’s elected it doesn’t mean he has a mandate to declare war on Germany
    That's right, if you are relying solely on a legal technicality, but it expresses what is wanted - a change in the law, and that is in the political realm [edit]. And I'm off to finish what I am doing as we are now at the same old logjam.
    Around 50% want a further referendum. Not an overwhelming case.
    More than half the Scottish Pmt. And most of the Scottish representation in HoC. Which is the way things work in a representative democracy. Which is where we were before. So I'll change the subject now and admire the blue sky asnd puffy white clouds outside.
    Not in ultra vires matters

    - Holyrood has no authority in this matter. It’s composition is irrelevant
    - Westminster doesn’t have a nationalist majority
    - The case that the SNP can make is that there is a moral imperative for Westminster to grant a referendum because there is overwhelming demand. But if you add all the votes cast in the latest election is about 50/50.
    This doesn't work. It's weak. Does Johnson's mandate come from 360 odd seats or 43% of the vote?

    There IS a democratic mandate to seek a Sindy vote. Westminster DOES have the legal power to frustrate it.

    That's the situation.
    From his majority of seats

    Essentially the only legal course the SNP has is to persuade Westminster to approve a referendum. My argument is that is dependent on the recent age of voters who supported parties that wanted a referendum. I don’t think that is unreasonable.

    Whether 50/50 is a strong case is a judgement call. I don’t believe it is
    The Brexit referendum was passed by a Governemtn that won just 36% of the vote. Presumably that shouldn’t have happened either?
  • Shoulda been involved in the slave trade, lads.

    https://twitter.com/thedaillew/status/1393242588820475906?s=21

    What does it say? I appear to be blocked.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,785
    Andy_JS said:

    LDs are 17/21 to win Chesham. Seems a bit steep...

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.183248117

    That is too steep.

    It's also a classic example of a good value loser. I'd expect the LDs will lose 48-42 to the Conservatives, so bets ay 16-1 (in limited size) are probably the right thing to do.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 14,586
    eek said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    There's a widespread expectation among Westminster-based journalists and foreign correspondents reporting from London that a huge constitutional bust up between Sturgeon and Johnson is inevitable. But it's not clear the British government has to do anything 1/9
    ....

    In either event, the constitutional clash between London and Edinburgh doesn't happen. The 2nd referendum is stopped by Scots in Scottish courts by Scottish judges, with the Johnson government looking on. Not quite the SNP playbook. 9/9


    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1393201453863419909?s=20

    Very plausable
    Doesn't surprise me, esp after the prorogation case (which had Unionists astounded as the UKSC wouldn't override Scots law as she is spoke in Parliament Square - remember).

    The law does need to be checked and tested, but the issue always was that the law itself was incompatible with the mandates conferred on the Scottish Pmt. Which will put the ball in the Westminster court sooner or later.
    The MSPs *can’t* get a mandate that is ultra vires. It simply isn’t a mandate.

    It’s like a candidate for PCC in Yorkshire making a declaration of war on Germany the centrepiece of his manifesto. Even if he’s elected it doesn’t mean he has a mandate to declare war on Germany
    That's right, if you are relying solely on a legal technicality, but it expresses what is wanted - a change in the law, and that is in the political realm [edit]. And I'm off to finish what I am doing as we are now at the same old logjam.
    Around 50% want a further referendum. Not an overwhelming case.
    More than half the Scottish Pmt. And most of the Scottish representation in HoC. Which is the way things work in a representative democracy. Which is where we were before. So I'll change the subject now and admire the blue sky asnd puffy white clouds outside.
    Not in ultra vires matters

    - Holyrood has no authority in this matter. It’s composition is irrelevant
    - Westminster doesn’t have a nationalist majority
    - The case that the SNP can make is that there is a moral imperative for Westminster to grant a referendum because there is overwhelming demand. But if you add all the votes cast in the latest election is about 50/50.
    This doesn't work. It's weak. Does Johnson's mandate come from 360 odd seats or 43% of the vote?

    There IS a democratic mandate to seek a Sindy vote. Westminster DOES have the legal power to frustrate it.

    That's the situation.
    But it would be a lot easier all round if it was frustrated within Scotland in such a way that the Westminster was not involved
    Westminster has to be involved, because the laws in question emanate from Westminster.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,524
    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    There's a widespread expectation among Westminster-based journalists and foreign correspondents reporting from London that a huge constitutional bust up between Sturgeon and Johnson is inevitable. But it's not clear the British government has to do anything 1/9
    ....

    In either event, the constitutional clash between London and Edinburgh doesn't happen. The 2nd referendum is stopped by Scots in Scottish courts by Scottish judges, with the Johnson government looking on. Not quite the SNP playbook. 9/9


    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1393201453863419909?s=20

    Very plausable
    Doesn't surprise me, esp after the prorogation case (which had Unionists astounded as the UKSC wouldn't override Scots law as she is spoke in Parliament Square - remember).

    The law does need to be checked and tested, but the issue always was that the law itself was incompatible with the mandates conferred on the Scottish Pmt. Which will put the ball in the Westminster court sooner or later.
    The MSPs *can’t* get a mandate that is ultra vires. It simply isn’t a mandate.

    It’s like a candidate for PCC in Yorkshire making a declaration of war on Germany the centrepiece of his manifesto. Even if he’s elected it doesn’t mean he has a mandate to declare war on Germany
    That's right, if you are relying solely on a legal technicality, but it expresses what is wanted - a change in the law, and that is in the political realm [edit]. And I'm off to finish what I am doing as we are now at the same old logjam.
    Around 50% want a further referendum. Not an overwhelming case.
    More than half the Scottish Pmt. And most of the Scottish representation in HoC. Which is the way things work in a representative democracy. Which is where we were before. So I'll change the subject now and admire the blue sky asnd puffy white clouds outside.
    Not in ultra vires matters

    - Holyrood has no authority in this matter. It’s composition is irrelevant
    - Westminster doesn’t have a nationalist majority
    - The case that the SNP can make is that there is a moral imperative for Westminster to grant a referendum because there is overwhelming demand. But if you add all the votes cast in the latest election is about 50/50.
    Right, but what does "ultra vires" mean in this context? Obviously it's clear that an Act of Holyrood actually declaring Scotland independent of the United Kingdom would not be lawful under the Scotland Act, but is that the case for legislation authorizing a referendum? Historically, local government in the UK has been very constrained as to what it can authorize the expenditure of public money on, with, in general, any expenditure on a matter not specifically authorized by statute being ultra vires and the councillors subject to surcharge to reclaim such monies spent.

    In recent years though, legislation has been passed to allow local authorities to assume a general power of competence in which the formula is reversed: they may spend public money on any matter of benefit to their community unless specifically forbidden to by statute. IIRC, this power was first enacted by Westminster for English authorities, but at least one of the devolved assemblies (NI, I think) has enacted it for its local authorities. So, if a devolved assembly can confer a general power of competence upon its local authorities, then surely it follows that it itself possesses such a power?

    So in that case, is it ultra vires for Scotland to hold a referendum? It could be argued that all the Scottish government would be doing is asking its electorate for authorization to negotiate an extension of the Scottish Parliament's powers with the UK government. As the Scotland Act (and the legislation for Wales and NI too) has been amended several times since 1998 to give Scotland more powers, and presumably the Scottish government must have spent public money on the process of requesting and negotiating such powers, how is the expenditure on an independence referendum any different?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 14,586
    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    ...

    People like Beckett cannot see Priti Patel, Sajid Javid, Trever Phillips etc... as minorities because minorities support their views. It's a really ugly blind spot.


    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1393160472908771332?s=20

    The far left think Thatcher didn’t really count as a female PM too. Ethnic minorities and women need to know their place
    I think what they really can't stand is that she got to the top an stayed there for 11 years on merit, without quotas, female-only shortlists or positive discirmination of any kind.

    And that she had more balls than any of them.
    Overthinking it a bit. It was mainly her politics wot done it. Although there was, no question, some misogyny thrown in. Same with all high profile women. Also medium and low profile ones. Behave like (we think) a woman should or you'll get a roasting. Fact, you might get one anyway.
    Er, unfortunate wording, 'roasting' - presumably not intended.
    Completely unintended yes. I wasn't aware of any meaning other than the one I was going for.
    Isn't it annoying when some smart alec with a dirtier mind points such things out to one?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 14,586

    Shoulda been involved in the slave trade, lads.

    https://twitter.com/thedaillew/status/1393242588820475906?s=21

    What does it say? I appear to be blocked.

    Try refreshing it. Seems to work sometime.
This discussion has been closed.