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Boris, Boris vote supressor – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited May 11 in General
imageBoris, Boris vote supressor – politicalbetting.com

The Government’s plan to make it compulsory to provide photo ID before you can cast your vote would be a good idea if voter fraud was a problem and there is simply no evidence that it is.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,844
    !st
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 13,923
    Oh? I didn't know they were still dissecting criminals as part of the punishment. Naughty as voting twice is.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999
    Yup, I'll mention what I said yesterday, plenty of Tory agents and activists worry, given the age profile of Tory voters, that this will hurt the Tory vote as the old dears will forget to bring ID then might not be arsed to come back and vote.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999
    Plus this is a backdoor attempt at introducing a national identity card.

    Death to identity cards.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 13,923

    Yup, I'll mention what I said yesterday, plenty of Tory agents and activists worry, given the age profile of Tory voters, that this will hurt the Tory vote as the old dears will forget to bring ID then might not be arsed to come back and vote.

    Or be terrified they'll be prosected.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999
    Carnyx said:

    Yup, I'll mention what I said yesterday, plenty of Tory agents and activists worry, given the age profile of Tory voters, that this will hurt the Tory vote as the old dears will forget to bring ID then might not be arsed to come back and vote.

    Or be terrified they'll be prosected.
    That too.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,035
    Wouldn't it be interesting if a group of us were to block polling stations in Amersham & Chesham or Batley & Spen demanding that voters could only go through if they could present valid ID. It would be interesting to see the reaction.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999
    For example my mother doesn't drive, so no driving licence for her, her passport expired last September and she hasn't renewed it.

    Given how renewals work, there's going to be plenty of people in a similar situation, particularly at renewal time.

    This has the potential to be an actual poll tax.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 3,719

    Plus this is a backdoor attempt at introducing a national identity card.

    Death to identity cards.

    Is it that, or is it the government's political arm mindlessly copying the Republicans? After all, there was a prominent Conservative politician in 2008 who said he would
    "grind up his ID card in his Moulinex and sprinkle it over his cornflakes and eat it"
    I wonder whatever became of him?
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,078
    Most of the alleged voter fraud hotspots seem to be in safe Labour seats, so unlikely to swing an election.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 28,980
    Hey BJ, hey BJ, how many (legitimate) votes did you kill today?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999
    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 67,843
    As Nick Palmer suggested, hammer to crack a nut.

    A possibly even imaginary nut. We must smash everything if there is the potential for nuts.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,219

    Yup, I'll mention what I said yesterday, plenty of Tory agents and activists worry, given the age profile of Tory voters, that this will hurt the Tory vote as the old dears will forget to bring ID then might not be arsed to come back and vote.

    Though in practice many of these would be allowed to vote anyway, esp. in small communities where the election workers will recognize them by sight.

    Less true for urban areas, which is where the true Tory targets for vote suppression live and (currently) vote.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 10,353
    fpt on Sleeper Trains COZ ITS IMPORTANT


    The Caledonian Sleeper is insanely expensive compared to other routes (airlines, normal trains)

    Yet it is consistently sold out, even in First Class - and they have pretty crap trains, still, despite some updating

    The new thing in travel is Experience, not just arriving somewhere on a normal boring plane to sit on a beach. Going by sleeper - especially on a brilliant route like Euston-Fort William - is an amazing experience IN ITSELF.

    Other famous sleeper trains around the world - the Ghan for sure, maybe the Trans Siberian? - are also commercially successful. People want to have the experience
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 13,804

    For example my mother doesn't drive, so no driving licence for her, her passport expired last September and she hasn't renewed it.

    Given how renewals work, there's going to be plenty of people in a similar situation, particularly at renewal time.

    This has the potential to be an actual poll tax.

    I am in identical circumstances. I haven't renewed my passport because I can't go anywhere so haven't bothered.
    Fortunately, I have applied for a permanent postal vote. So I won't have to produce ID.
    Thus increasing the potential for fraud.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 13,923
    edited May 11
    Leon said:

    fpt on Sleeper Trains COZ ITS IMPORTANT


    The Caledonian Sleeper is insanely expensive compared to other routes (airlines, normal trains)

    Yet it is consistently sold out, even in First Class - and they have pretty crap trains, still, despite some updating

    The new thing in travel is Experience, not just arriving somewhere on a normal boring plane to sit on a beach. Going by sleeper - especially on a brilliant route like Euston-Fort William - is an amazing experience IN ITSELF.

    Other famous sleeper trains around the world - the Ghan for sure, maybe the Trans Siberian? - are also commercially successful. People want to have the experience

    Of course it is important.

    The only trouble is that to experience it I myself have to go to London. Or to what TUD would call An Gearasdan. Which rather defeats the aim.

    Happy memories of eating boiled eggs and toast in the restaurant car as dawn broke over Rannoch Moor in the 1970s ...

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,214

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 19,632

    Most of the alleged voter fraud hotspots seem to be in safe Labour seats, so unlikely to swing an election.

    I doubt it’s an issue in Westminster elections. I suspect it’s more of a problem in locals.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,219
    edited May 11

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    Here in WA State the voter signature on EVERY returned election ballot is checked against signature on file. Voters who forget to sign their return ballot envelopes OR whose sigs don't match their file sig are notified and given opportunity to correct the problem via the mail.

    Meaning that a properly-conducted postal vote can be LESS susceptible to fraud & abuse than in-person voting.

    Also note that every active registered voter in WA is automatically mailed a ballot for all elections in their jurisdiction. So NONE are turned away BEFORE they have a chance to submit their ballot and vote. Any challenge, and ultimate rejection takes place AFTER the person has voted.

    Incidentally, the greatest source of mismatching signatures is NOT Tammany Hall type fraud, which is as rare as hens teeth in WA State.

    Instead, it's wives signing for their husband's ballots or visa versa. Or parents doing same for the kids who are away at school. These get caught and are NOT counted. But not what you'd call criminal behavior, just human nature.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 16,964

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Eventually the Tories will lose power and then the left take power and then make it harder for Tories to vote then you'll have no moral ground to complain.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 10,353
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    fpt on Sleeper Trains COZ ITS IMPORTANT


    The Caledonian Sleeper is insanely expensive compared to other routes (airlines, normal trains)

    Yet it is consistently sold out, even in First Class - and they have pretty crap trains, still, despite some updating

    The new thing in travel is Experience, not just arriving somewhere on a normal boring plane to sit on a beach. Going by sleeper - especially on a brilliant route like Euston-Fort William - is an amazing experience IN ITSELF.

    Other famous sleeper trains around the world - the Ghan for sure, maybe the Trans Siberian? - are also commercially successful. People want to have the experience

    Of course it is important.

    The only trouble is that to experience it I myself have to go to London. Or to what TUD would call An Gearasdan. Which rather defeats the aim.

    Happy memories of eating boiled eggs and toast in the restaurant car as dawn broke over Rannoch Moor in the 1970s ...

    You embark in a midge-ridden toilet of a country, where people LITERALLY eat pebbles in an essentially Neolithic environment, beset with ague, and then you wake up in the glittering, modern, hi-tech, gleaming global-city capital of England, where we keep your Queen, and store all your treasures in the Bank of England, along with your sovereignty?

    What could be more exciting for a Scotsman?

    Perhaps it is TOO exciting for someone advanced in years by Scottish standards, ie about 43?
  • borisatsunborisatsun Posts: 188

    dixiedean said:

    I see it's trains and speculation about nuclear strikes.
    Or Tuesday on PB.

    Some of us are trying to chat about wine and related stratigraphy!

    Has anyone watched "The Wine Show"?

    I'm not sure what channel it was on originally, but I've watched it on Amazon. I've found it a really fun and interesting introduction to loads of wines I knew nothing about.

    I think the presenters are excellent; Matthew Goode, James Puefoy, Joe Fattorini and Matthew Rhys all impressed me.

    And has anyone else seen Matthew Rhys in The Americans?

    Might be my favourite TV show ever..
    Timed this one really badly at the end of the last thread and would love to know if anyone else enjoyed The Wine Show or The Americans?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Especially as the current government is introducing some of the most hard left policies today.

    Mrs Thatcher is spinning in her grave at the plans for more state aid.

    A Conservative government, A Conservative government doing that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,013

    For example my mother doesn't drive, so no driving licence for her, her passport expired last September and she hasn't renewed it.

    Given how renewals work, there's going to be plenty of people in a similar situation, particularly at renewal time.

    This has the potential to be an actual poll tax.

    Older working class people less likely than middle class students to have ID?

    Quite possibly, and I would laugh till I pissed myself.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 10,353

    dixiedean said:

    I see it's trains and speculation about nuclear strikes.
    Or Tuesday on PB.

    Some of us are trying to chat about wine and related stratigraphy!

    Has anyone watched "The Wine Show"?

    I'm not sure what channel it was on originally, but I've watched it on Amazon. I've found it a really fun and interesting introduction to loads of wines I knew nothing about.

    I think the presenters are excellent; Matthew Goode, James Puefoy, Joe Fattorini and Matthew Rhys all impressed me.

    And has anyone else seen Matthew Rhys in The Americans?

    Might be my favourite TV show ever..
    Timed this one really badly at the end of the last thread and would love to know if anyone else enjoyed The Wine Show or The Americans?
    I don't know either well (I lost track of the Americans after season 1 and never seen the other), HOWEVER welcome to PB!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,417
    edited May 11

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Eventually the Tories will lose power and then the left take power and then make it harder for Tories to vote then you'll have no moral ground to complain.
    No they will just let 16 year olds and other groups who currently don't have the vote take part.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,265

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
  • borisatsunborisatsun Posts: 188
    And on topic..

    Boris, Boris, Vote Validator
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,219
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    fpt on Sleeper Trains COZ ITS IMPORTANT


    The Caledonian Sleeper is insanely expensive compared to other routes (airlines, normal trains)

    Yet it is consistently sold out, even in First Class - and they have pretty crap trains, still, despite some updating

    The new thing in travel is Experience, not just arriving somewhere on a normal boring plane to sit on a beach. Going by sleeper - especially on a brilliant route like Euston-Fort William - is an amazing experience IN ITSELF.

    Other famous sleeper trains around the world - the Ghan for sure, maybe the Trans Siberian? - are also commercially successful. People want to have the experience

    Of course it is important.

    The only trouble is that to experience it I myself have to go to London. Or to what TUD would call An Gearasdan. Which rather defeats the aim.

    Happy memories of eating boiled eggs and toast in the restaurant car as dawn broke over Rannoch Moor in the 1970s ...

    You embark in a midge-ridden toilet of a country, where people LITERALLY eat pebbles in an essentially Neolithic environment, beset with ague, and then you wake up in the glittering, modern, hi-tech, gleaming global-city capital of England, where we keep your Queen, and store all your treasures in the Bank of England, along with your sovereignty?

    What could be more exciting for a Scotsman?

    Perhaps it is TOO exciting for someone advanced in years by Scottish standards, ie about 43?
    As another English wiseguy once said, "The noblest prospect which a Scotchman ever sees, is the high road that leads him to England!"
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,265

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Eventually the Tories will lose power and then the left take power and then make it harder for Tories to vote then you'll have no moral ground to complain.
    No they will just let 16 year olds and other groups who currently don't have the vote take part.
    I'd expect them to reduce the availability of postal votes to those overseas.

    Make the older Tory vote stand in line to vote.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 16,964
    edited May 11
    Leon said:

    fpt on Sleeper Trains COZ ITS IMPORTANT


    The Caledonian Sleeper is insanely expensive compared to other routes (airlines, normal trains)

    Yet it is consistently sold out, even in First Class - and they have pretty crap trains, still, despite some updating

    The new thing in travel is Experience, not just arriving somewhere on a normal boring plane to sit on a beach. Going by sleeper - especially on a brilliant route like Euston-Fort William - is an amazing experience IN ITSELF.

    Other famous sleeper trains around the world - the Ghan for sure, maybe the Trans Siberian? - are also commercially successful. People want to have the experience

    Mrs P and I took the sleeper from Edinburgh to London in the February last year just BC*, at my suggestion and in spite her scepticism.

    She of course ended up loving it; I hardly slept a wink because of the constant shaking (that was the train, not Mrs P!).

    Still the idea of dinner in London, then onto the train, waking up alongside Loch Lomond, and pulling into Fort William at 10:00am appeals, sleep or no sleep.

    (*Before Covid, obvs.)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 16,895

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Eventually the Tories will lose power and then the left take power and then make it harder for Tories to vote then you'll have no moral ground to complain.
    Quite so. The Labour response would be straightforward - instruct the Boundary Commission to base population not on registered voters but on eligible population (cf. the census). It wouldn't make it harder for Tories to vote (I'd be against that just as much as this), but it would remove the bias to people with settled addresses, who are disproportionately older and more Tory.
  • eekeek Posts: 14,199

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Eventually the Tories will lose power and then the left take power and then make it harder for Tories to vote then you'll have no moral ground to complain.
    No they will just let 16 year olds and other groups who currently don't have the vote take part.
    I'd expect them to reduce the availability of postal votes to those overseas.

    Make the older Tory vote stand in line to vote.
    No mention of that in the discussion document
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 13,804
    Photo ID. So. Who decides it is you in the photo?
    Police and border guards are experienced and trained to recognise aging, different hair styles, etc.
    Poll workers will be neither.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,013

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Eventually the Tories will lose power and then the left take power and then make it harder for Tories to vote then you'll have no moral ground to complain.
    No they will just let 16 year olds and other groups who currently don't have the vote take part.
    Non Irish/Commonwealth with permanent residence?

    Not that they would nessicarily vote Labour...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,265
    dixiedean said:

    Photo ID. So. Who decides it is you in the photo?
    Police and border guards are experienced and trained to recognise aging, different hair styles, etc.
    Poll workers will be neither.

    Shop assistants and bartenders do it on a daily basis.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 28,980

    dixiedean said:

    I see it's trains and speculation about nuclear strikes.
    Or Tuesday on PB.

    Some of us are trying to chat about wine and related stratigraphy!

    Has anyone watched "The Wine Show"?

    I'm not sure what channel it was on originally, but I've watched it on Amazon. I've found it a really fun and interesting introduction to loads of wines I knew nothing about.

    I think the presenters are excellent; Matthew Goode, James Puefoy, Joe Fattorini and Matthew Rhys all impressed me.

    And has anyone else seen Matthew Rhys in The Americans?

    Might be my favourite TV show ever..
    Timed this one really badly at the end of the last thread and would love to know if anyone else enjoyed The Wine Show or The Americans?
    Lost my way with The Americans but Matthew Rhys is great in Perry Mason if you haven't caught it
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999
    eek said:

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Eventually the Tories will lose power and then the left take power and then make it harder for Tories to vote then you'll have no moral ground to complain.
    No they will just let 16 year olds and other groups who currently don't have the vote take part.
    I'd expect them to reduce the availability of postal votes to those overseas.

    Make the older Tory vote stand in line to vote.
    No mention of that in the discussion document
    I'm talking about a future Labour government's plans.

    This would be the tat for the Tory tit.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,219
    Will be interesting to see, how many PBers who decried voter suppression in the USA will be on board with voter suppression in the UK?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 16,964

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    You still haven't addressed OGH's point that this is a solution looking for a problem.

    It's not as if there aren't massively more important things to be addressing (e.g. social care)
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    eek said:

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Eventually the Tories will lose power and then the left take power and then make it harder for Tories to vote then you'll have no moral ground to complain.
    No they will just let 16 year olds and other groups who currently don't have the vote take part.
    I'd expect them to reduce the availability of postal votes to those overseas.

    Make the older Tory vote stand in line to vote.
    No mention of that in the discussion document
    I'm talking about a future Labour government's plans.

    This would be the tat for the Tory tit.
    Because Labour's 2019 manifesto didn't already propose lowering the voting age to 16 and extending the franchise to millions of EU and non-EU residents alike in order to give themselves a permanent demographic advantage?

    They're going to do whatever they're going to do. So, therefore, should we.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 16,895
    By the way, it's worth noting that the COVID-19 case numbers have been rising for several days (+25% today over last week at 2474/day). However, the hospitalisation numbers are still trending down (1108/day, down 175 on last week). That could be a time lag, or confirmation that the vaccines are making most cases milder when they occur. So it could be encouraging - but worth watching. Deaths are up (+16 to 20), but the numbers are too small for that to be significant at this point.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,265

    Will be interesting to see, how many PBers who decried voter suppression in the USA will be on board with voter suppression in the UK?

    I am opposed to any and all voter suppression.

    This proposal should only go ahead if it is not for voter suppression purposes and it will not affect non fraudulent turnout.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,214

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Well, it is largely the left who have been and are whining about it. The left is an equivalent to the PB Tories in terms of description. I am not ascribing anyone .. to either. I fall into the anyone but Labour faction.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    I'd go for the parcel example the government cites.

    Here's the list of permissible ID that you need to pick up a parcel at your local post office.

    We’ll accept any of these:
    • Birth certificate
    • Building society book
    • Cheque book
    • Cheque guarantee card
    • Council tax payment book
    • Credit card
    • Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
    • Debit card
    • Full driving licence
    • Marriage certificate
    • Military photo ID
    • Police Warrant Card
    • Foreign national identity card
    • National Savings bank book
    • Valid passport
    • Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
    • Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
    • Trade union card

    https://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/collection-services
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 13,804
    And how come my son, who is 17, can apply for a driving licence and a passport, without producing a driver's licence or a passport as proof of his ID?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,265

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    You still haven't addressed OGH's point that this is a solution looking for a problem.

    It's not as if there aren't massively more important things to be addressing (e.g. social care)
    The Electoral Commission seem to think this is a solution for a real problem though, it's just according to TSE the method that has varied. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    If so then it's reluctantly valid so long as it doesn't suppress anyone and it doesn't introduce an ID Card.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,013

    By the way, it's worth noting that the COVID-19 case numbers have been rising for several days (+25% today over last week at 2474/day). However, the hospitalisation numbers are still trending down (1108/day, down 175 on last week). That could be a time lag, or confirmation that the vaccines are making most cases milder when they occur. So it could be encouraging - but worth watching. Deaths are up (+16 to 20), but the numbers are too small for that to be significant at this point.

    Hospitalisations do lag positive tests.

    The Indian variant figures are a bit worrying.

    https://twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1391780417993334785?s=19
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999

    eek said:

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Eventually the Tories will lose power and then the left take power and then make it harder for Tories to vote then you'll have no moral ground to complain.
    No they will just let 16 year olds and other groups who currently don't have the vote take part.
    I'd expect them to reduce the availability of postal votes to those overseas.

    Make the older Tory vote stand in line to vote.
    No mention of that in the discussion document
    I'm talking about a future Labour government's plans.

    This would be the tat for the Tory tit.
    Because Labour's 2019 manifesto didn't already propose lowering the voting age to 16 and extending the franchise to millions of EU and non-EU residents alike in order to give themselves a permanent demographic advantage?

    They're going to do whatever they're going to do. So, therefore, should we.
    You sound like an American Southerner complaining about giving the blacks the vote.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 13,804

    dixiedean said:

    Photo ID. So. Who decides it is you in the photo?
    Police and border guards are experienced and trained to recognise aging, different hair styles, etc.
    Poll workers will be neither.

    Shop assistants and bartenders do it on a daily basis.
    And regularly get it wrong.
    In slightly less important circumstances.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,265
    dixiedean said:

    And how come my son, who is 17, can apply for a driving licence and a passport, without producing a driver's licence or a passport as proof of his ID?

    Because it isn't difficult to get ID in this country.

    This isn't the USA where you have to take a day off work to go to the notoriously unhelpful DVLA to get ID.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 16,964

    By the way, it's worth noting that the COVID-19 case numbers have been rising for several days (+25% today over last week at 2474/day). However, the hospitalisation numbers are still trending down (1108/day, down 175 on last week). That could be a time lag, or confirmation that the vaccines are making most cases milder when they occur. So it could be encouraging - but worth watching. Deaths are up (+16 to 20), but the numbers are too small for that to be significant at this point.

    No one should be surprised that each lockdown easing pushes R up a bit. Against which, the continued vaccination roll-out will be suppressing R.

    The delicate balancing act is to not push R up too much too soon.

    The 'end-lockdown-now' brigade on here have gone a bit quiet it seems, so maybe they too have noticed the slight uptick.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 3,386

    By the way, it's worth noting that the COVID-19 case numbers have been rising for several days (+25% today over last week at 2474/day). However, the hospitalisation numbers are still trending down (1108/day, down 175 on last week). That could be a time lag, or confirmation that the vaccines are making most cases milder when they occur. So it could be encouraging - but worth watching. Deaths are up (+16 to 20), but the numbers are too small for that to be significant at this point.

    Last week was the day after bank holiday Monday, so not a good match. It does look like cases may be trending slightly up, as does the Zoe ap, but the link to hospitalisation and death should be broken now by the vaccination rates. Will be a tricky few weeks - need to keep control of the zero Covid cohorts...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,265

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    I'd go for the parcel example the government cites.

    Here's the list of permissible ID that you need to pick up a parcel at your local post office.

    We’ll accept any of these:
    • Birth certificate
    • Building society book
    • Cheque book
    • Cheque guarantee card
    • Council tax payment book
    • Credit card
    • Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
    • Debit card
    • Full driving licence
    • Marriage certificate
    • Military photo ID
    • Police Warrant Card
    • Foreign national identity card
    • National Savings bank book
    • Valid passport
    • Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
    • Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
    • Trade union card

    https://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/collection-services
    No objections from me for that.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited May 11

    eek said:

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Eventually the Tories will lose power and then the left take power and then make it harder for Tories to vote then you'll have no moral ground to complain.
    No they will just let 16 year olds and other groups who currently don't have the vote take part.
    I'd expect them to reduce the availability of postal votes to those overseas.

    Make the older Tory vote stand in line to vote.
    No mention of that in the discussion document
    I'm talking about a future Labour government's plans.

    This would be the tat for the Tory tit.
    Because Labour's 2019 manifesto didn't already propose lowering the voting age to 16 and extending the franchise to millions of EU and non-EU residents alike in order to give themselves a permanent demographic advantage?

    They're going to do whatever they're going to do. So, therefore, should we.
    You sound like an American Southerner complaining about giving the blacks the vote.
    And you sound a bit dense. Votes are for citizens, not residents. Labour wanted to rig the system in their favour in the most shameless manner in modern history, but I don't recall you complaining about that.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 16,964
    dixiedean said:

    Photo ID. So. Who decides it is you in the photo?
    Police and border guards are experienced and trained to recognise aging, different hair styles, etc.
    Poll workers will be neither.

    What's so hard? Even I can see that your photo is Dixie Dean.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 13,804

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    I'd go for the parcel example the government cites.

    Here's the list of permissible ID that you need to pick up a parcel at your local post office.

    We’ll accept any of these:
    • Birth certificate
    • Building society book
    • Cheque book
    • Cheque guarantee card
    • Council tax payment book
    • Credit card
    • Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
    • Debit card
    • Full driving licence
    • Marriage certificate
    • Military photo ID
    • Police Warrant Card
    • Foreign national identity card
    • National Savings bank book
    • Valid passport
    • Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
    • Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
    • Trade union card

    https://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/collection-services
    You can apply for Universal Credit with a debit or credit card.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999

    eek said:

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Eventually the Tories will lose power and then the left take power and then make it harder for Tories to vote then you'll have no moral ground to complain.
    No they will just let 16 year olds and other groups who currently don't have the vote take part.
    I'd expect them to reduce the availability of postal votes to those overseas.

    Make the older Tory vote stand in line to vote.
    No mention of that in the discussion document
    I'm talking about a future Labour government's plans.

    This would be the tat for the Tory tit.
    Because Labour's 2019 manifesto didn't already propose lowering the voting age to 16 and extending the franchise to millions of EU and non-EU residents alike in order to give themselves a permanent demographic advantage?

    They're going to do whatever they're going to do. So, therefore, should we.
    You sound like an American Southerner complaining about giving the blacks the vote.
    And you sound a bit dense. Votes are for citizens, not residents. Labour wanted to rig the system in their favour in the most shameless manner in modern history, but I don't recall you complaining about that.
    I did actually.

    The Scottish experience persuaded me that 16 and 17 year olds should have the vote, but for EU citizens a vote in general elections is off, if they want the vote they can apply for citizenship.
  • GasmanGasman Posts: 125
    On topic, presumably you'll be campaigning to remove the ID requirement for voting in Northern Ireland, as a disgraceful piece of voter suppression.

    I do agree with TSE up thread that postal voting should be greatly restricted.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 13,804

    dixiedean said:

    And how come my son, who is 17, can apply for a driving licence and a passport, without producing a driver's licence or a passport as proof of his ID?

    Because it isn't difficult to get ID in this country.

    This isn't the USA where you have to take a day off work to go to the notoriously unhelpful DVLA to get ID.
    But then you are arguing against yourself.
    If it "isn't difficult to get ID" then it isn't a secure method against fraud.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,219

    dixiedean said:

    And how come my son, who is 17, can apply for a driving licence and a passport, without producing a driver's licence or a passport as proof of his ID?

    Because it isn't difficult to get ID in this country.

    This isn't the USA where you have to take a day off work to go to the notoriously unhelpful DVLA to get ID.
    So what you call ID is basically a joke, at least from a fraud-prevention stand point?

    Actual difficulty of obtaining govt-issued ID in USA is not that onerous for most people, depending on state & jurisdiction. Most get it when applying or renewing driving licenses, which most of us have & need due to high level of car ownership.

    BUT getting ID can be a challenge for some, both in time, expense AND access to appropriate govt. agency.

    AND any such barrier to voting will disproportionately affect less affluent, less educated and less mobile.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 7,934

    eek said:

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Eventually the Tories will lose power and then the left take power and then make it harder for Tories to vote then you'll have no moral ground to complain.
    No they will just let 16 year olds and other groups who currently don't have the vote take part.
    I'd expect them to reduce the availability of postal votes to those overseas.

    Make the older Tory vote stand in line to vote.
    No mention of that in the discussion document
    I'm talking about a future Labour government's plans.

    This would be the tat for the Tory tit.
    Because Labour's 2019 manifesto didn't already propose lowering the voting age to 16 and extending the franchise to millions of EU and non-EU residents alike in order to give themselves a permanent demographic advantage?

    They're going to do whatever they're going to do. So, therefore, should we.
    You sound like an American Southerner complaining about giving the blacks the vote.
    And you sound a bit dense. Votes are for citizens, not residents. Labour wanted to rig the system in their favour in the most shameless manner in modern history, but I don't recall you complaining about that.
    Hmm, let me think now, TSE or BluestBlue. Now which of these two posters would I associate with sounding “a bit dense” 😂
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,016

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    I'd go for the parcel example the government cites.

    Here's the list of permissible ID that you need to pick up a parcel at your local post office.

    We’ll accept any of these:
    • Birth certificate
    • Building society book
    • Cheque book
    • Cheque guarantee card
    • Council tax payment book
    • Credit card
    • Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
    • Debit card
    • Full driving licence
    • Marriage certificate
    • Military photo ID
    • Police Warrant Card
    • Foreign national identity card
    • National Savings bank book
    • Valid passport
    • Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
    • Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
    • Trade union card

    https://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/collection-services
    Most bank and credit cards dont even have your full name (not sure why?). Id guess most utility bills are paid online, typically by direct debit, so no way of knowing if it has been paid or not.
  • borisatsunborisatsun Posts: 188
    edited May 11
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    I see it's trains and speculation about nuclear strikes.
    Or Tuesday on PB.

    Some of us are trying to chat about wine and related stratigraphy!

    Has anyone watched "The Wine Show"?

    I'm not sure what channel it was on originally, but I've watched it on Amazon. I've found it a really fun and interesting introduction to loads of wines I knew nothing about.

    I think the presenters are excellent; Matthew Goode, James Puefoy, Joe Fattorini and Matthew Rhys all impressed me.

    And has anyone else seen Matthew Rhys in The Americans?

    Might be my favourite TV show ever..
    Timed this one really badly at the end of the last thread and would love to know if anyone else enjoyed The Wine Show or The Americans?
    I don't know either well (I lost track of the Americans after season 1 and never seen the other), HOWEVER welcome to PB!
    I just bought all six series of The Americans on Amazon and watched them in a fortnight. I found it by looking up Matthew Rhys after seeing him on the Wine Show.

    The premise of the show, KGB agents living as Americans in the USA in the 80s, drew me in before I watched the pilot.

    The pilot's use of Fleetwood Mac's "Tusk" (I believe a world record holding song for the number of musicians on a charting song, due to the number in the marching band they recorded with) is amazing.

    I found the whole thing superbly paced, really well cast and acted, believably and intriguingly scripted. I'm not sure why you gave up after the first series!

    But my favourite thing about it is that main characters Philip Jennings and Martha (the FBI secretary he's conning and screwing) are perfectly acted by a Welshman and a Mackem.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    I'd go for the parcel example the government cites.

    Here's the list of permissible ID that you need to pick up a parcel at your local post office.

    We’ll accept any of these:
    • Birth certificate
    • Building society book
    • Cheque book
    • Cheque guarantee card
    • Council tax payment book
    • Credit card
    • Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
    • Debit card
    • Full driving licence
    • Marriage certificate
    • Military photo ID
    • Police Warrant Card
    • Foreign national identity card
    • National Savings bank book
    • Valid passport
    • Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
    • Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
    • Trade union card

    https://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/collection-services
    Most bank and credit cards dont even have your full name (not sure why?). Id guess most utility bills are paid online, typically by direct debit, so no way of knowing if it has been paid or not.
    My major issue with debit cards at the moment is the brilliant idea of putting your full sort code and account number on the front of your card*.

    That won't help fraudsters/thieves if you misplace your card.

    *My new TSB card has nothing on the front and everything listed on the back, including the account number and sort code.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,265
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    And how come my son, who is 17, can apply for a driving licence and a passport, without producing a driver's licence or a passport as proof of his ID?

    Because it isn't difficult to get ID in this country.

    This isn't the USA where you have to take a day off work to go to the notoriously unhelpful DVLA to get ID.
    But then you are arguing against yourself.
    If it "isn't difficult to get ID" then it isn't a secure method against fraud.
    It's not a perfect method but it's a good enough method to ensure the person is who they say they are - and I said I'd accept the entire Post Office list too.

    Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good enough.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 16,964

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    I'd go for the parcel example the government cites.

    Here's the list of permissible ID that you need to pick up a parcel at your local post office.

    We’ll accept any of these:
    • Birth certificate
    • Building society book
    • Cheque book
    • Cheque guarantee card
    • Council tax payment book
    • Credit card
    • Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
    • Debit card
    • Full driving licence
    • Marriage certificate
    • Military photo ID
    • Police Warrant Card
    • Foreign national identity card
    • National Savings bank book
    • Valid passport
    • Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
    • Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
    • Trade union card

    https://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/collection-services
    Most bank and credit cards dont even have your full name (not sure why?). Id guess most utility bills are paid online, typically by direct debit, so no way of knowing if it has been paid or not.
    My major issue with debit cards at the moment is the brilliant idea of putting your full sort code and account number on the front of your card*.

    That won't help fraudsters/thieves if you misplace your card.

    *My new TSB card has nothing on the front and everything listed on the back, including the account number and sort code.
    Cheques have always had your sort code and account number printed on them of course.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 9,755
    edited May 11

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    The Electoral Commission seems to have been more concerned with the prevention of possible future personation than with any evidence it was widespread. From their 2014 report (my emphasis):-

    Requiring voters to show identification in polling stations
    Polling station voting in Great Britain remains vulnerable to personation fraud because there are currently few checks available to prevent someone claiming to be an elector and voting in their name. This part of the system could become more vulnerable to fraud as other processes (including electoral registration and postal or proxy voting) become more secure. We have therefore concluded that there should be a requirement for electors across Great Britain to present an acceptable form of identification prior to voting at the polling station.

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdf_file/Electoral-fraud-review-final-report.pdf
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,265

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    I'd go for the parcel example the government cites.

    Here's the list of permissible ID that you need to pick up a parcel at your local post office.

    We’ll accept any of these:
    • Birth certificate
    • Building society book
    • Cheque book
    • Cheque guarantee card
    • Council tax payment book
    • Credit card
    • Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
    • Debit card
    • Full driving licence
    • Marriage certificate
    • Military photo ID
    • Police Warrant Card
    • Foreign national identity card
    • National Savings bank book
    • Valid passport
    • Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
    • Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
    • Trade union card

    https://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/collection-services
    Most bank and credit cards dont even have your full name (not sure why?). Id guess most utility bills are paid online, typically by direct debit, so no way of knowing if it has been paid or not.
    My major issue with debit cards at the moment is the brilliant idea of putting your full sort code and account number on the front of your card*.

    That won't help fraudsters/thieves if you misplace your card.

    *My new TSB card has nothing on the front and everything listed on the back, including the account number and sort code.
    The other problem with cards is they're obsolete.

    I've stopped carrying a wallet quite frequently. I pay with my phone or my watch.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    I'd go for the parcel example the government cites.

    Here's the list of permissible ID that you need to pick up a parcel at your local post office.

    We’ll accept any of these:
    • Birth certificate
    • Building society book
    • Cheque book
    • Cheque guarantee card
    • Council tax payment book
    • Credit card
    • Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
    • Debit card
    • Full driving licence
    • Marriage certificate
    • Military photo ID
    • Police Warrant Card
    • Foreign national identity card
    • National Savings bank book
    • Valid passport
    • Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
    • Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
    • Trade union card

    https://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/collection-services
    Most bank and credit cards dont even have your full name (not sure why?). Id guess most utility bills are paid online, typically by direct debit, so no way of knowing if it has been paid or not.
    My major issue with debit cards at the moment is the brilliant idea of putting your full sort code and account number on the front of your card*.

    That won't help fraudsters/thieves if you misplace your card.

    *My new TSB card has nothing on the front and everything listed on the back, including the account number and sort code.
    Cheques have always had your sort code and account number printed on them of course.
    What is a cheque book?

    I don't think people take their cheque book everywhere like a debit card.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,265

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    The Electoral Commission seems to have been more concerned with the prevention of possible future personation than with any evidence it was widespread. From their 2014 report (my emphasis):-

    Requiring voters to show identification in polling stations
    Polling station voting in Great Britain remains vulnerable to personation fraud because there are currently few checks available to prevent someone claiming to be an elector and voting in their name. This part of the system could become more vulnerable to fraud as other processes (including electoral registration and postal or proxy voting) become more secure. We have therefore concluded that there should be a requirement for electors across Great Britain to present an acceptable form of identification prior to voting at the polling station.

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdf_file/Electoral-fraud-review-final-report.pdf
    Indeed. So they have concluded that there should be a requirement for electors across Great Britain to present an acceptable form of identification prior to voting at the polling station.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    I'd go for the parcel example the government cites.

    Here's the list of permissible ID that you need to pick up a parcel at your local post office.

    We’ll accept any of these:
    • Birth certificate
    • Building society book
    • Cheque book
    • Cheque guarantee card
    • Council tax payment book
    • Credit card
    • Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
    • Debit card
    • Full driving licence
    • Marriage certificate
    • Military photo ID
    • Police Warrant Card
    • Foreign national identity card
    • National Savings bank book
    • Valid passport
    • Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
    • Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
    • Trade union card

    https://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/collection-services
    Most bank and credit cards dont even have your full name (not sure why?). Id guess most utility bills are paid online, typically by direct debit, so no way of knowing if it has been paid or not.
    My major issue with debit cards at the moment is the brilliant idea of putting your full sort code and account number on the front of your card*.

    That won't help fraudsters/thieves if you misplace your card.

    *My new TSB card has nothing on the front and everything listed on the back, including the account number and sort code.
    The other problem with cards is they're obsolete.

    I've stopped carrying a wallet quite frequently. I pay with my phone or my watch.
    Same, heck I can even withdraw money from my RBS account at a cash machine without need for my debit card.

    But not everyone is as tech savvy as us.

    I think because of my day job I'm alert to all the scams out there, or rather the volume of them, which is astonishing.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 14,634

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    I'd go for the parcel example the government cites.

    Here's the list of permissible ID that you need to pick up a parcel at your local post office.

    We’ll accept any of these:
    • Birth certificate
    • Building society book
    • Cheque book
    • Cheque guarantee card
    • Council tax payment book
    • Credit card
    • Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
    • Debit card
    • Full driving licence
    • Marriage certificate
    • Military photo ID
    • Police Warrant Card
    • Foreign national identity card
    • National Savings bank book
    • Valid passport
    • Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
    • Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
    • Trade union card

    https://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/collection-services
    Most bank and credit cards dont even have your full name (not sure why?). Id guess most utility bills are paid online, typically by direct debit, so no way of knowing if it has been paid or not.
    My major issue with debit cards at the moment is the brilliant idea of putting your full sort code and account number on the front of your card*.

    That won't help fraudsters/thieves if you misplace your card.

    *My new TSB card has nothing on the front and everything listed on the back, including the account number and sort code.
    Are you suggesting that fraudsters and thieves aren't able to turn the card over?
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,312
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    I see it's trains and speculation about nuclear strikes.
    Or Tuesday on PB.

    Some of us are trying to chat about wine and related stratigraphy!

    Has anyone watched "The Wine Show"?

    I'm not sure what channel it was on originally, but I've watched it on Amazon. I've found it a really fun and interesting introduction to loads of wines I knew nothing about.

    I think the presenters are excellent; Matthew Goode, James Puefoy, Joe Fattorini and Matthew Rhys all impressed me.

    And has anyone else seen Matthew Rhys in The Americans?

    Might be my favourite TV show ever..
    Timed this one really badly at the end of the last thread and would love to know if anyone else enjoyed The Wine Show or The Americans?
    I don't know either well (I lost track of the Americans after season 1 and never seen the other), HOWEVER welcome to PB!
    I was hooked on the The Americans from the first episode- genuinely a landmark series.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999
    edited May 11

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    I'd go for the parcel example the government cites.

    Here's the list of permissible ID that you need to pick up a parcel at your local post office.

    We’ll accept any of these:
    • Birth certificate
    • Building society book
    • Cheque book
    • Cheque guarantee card
    • Council tax payment book
    • Credit card
    • Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
    • Debit card
    • Full driving licence
    • Marriage certificate
    • Military photo ID
    • Police Warrant Card
    • Foreign national identity card
    • National Savings bank book
    • Valid passport
    • Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
    • Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
    • Trade union card

    https://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/collection-services
    Most bank and credit cards dont even have your full name (not sure why?). Id guess most utility bills are paid online, typically by direct debit, so no way of knowing if it has been paid or not.
    My major issue with debit cards at the moment is the brilliant idea of putting your full sort code and account number on the front of your card*.

    That won't help fraudsters/thieves if you misplace your card.

    *My new TSB card has nothing on the front and everything listed on the back, including the account number and sort code.
    Are you suggesting that fraudsters and thieves aren't able to turn the card over?
    It makes cloning the card difficult,

    The numbers aren't raised on cards like they are on most debit/credit cards.

    They are not embossed.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999
    sarissa said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    I see it's trains and speculation about nuclear strikes.
    Or Tuesday on PB.

    Some of us are trying to chat about wine and related stratigraphy!

    Has anyone watched "The Wine Show"?

    I'm not sure what channel it was on originally, but I've watched it on Amazon. I've found it a really fun and interesting introduction to loads of wines I knew nothing about.

    I think the presenters are excellent; Matthew Goode, James Puefoy, Joe Fattorini and Matthew Rhys all impressed me.

    And has anyone else seen Matthew Rhys in The Americans?

    Might be my favourite TV show ever..
    Timed this one really badly at the end of the last thread and would love to know if anyone else enjoyed The Wine Show or The Americans?
    I don't know either well (I lost track of the Americans after season 1 and never seen the other), HOWEVER welcome to PB!
    I was hooked on the The Americans from the first episode- genuinely a landmark series.
    It was the wigs and make up they wore that got me hooked.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 16,964
    Voter ID, vaccination passports... we're headed for ID cards, aren't we?

    "Papers please..."
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 6,985

    dixiedean said:

    I see it's trains and speculation about nuclear strikes.
    Or Tuesday on PB.

    Some of us are trying to chat about wine and related stratigraphy!

    Has anyone watched "The Wine Show"?

    I'm not sure what channel it was on originally, but I've watched it on Amazon. I've found it a really fun and interesting introduction to loads of wines I knew nothing about.

    I think the presenters are excellent; Matthew Goode, James Puefoy, Joe Fattorini and Matthew Rhys all impressed me.

    And has anyone else seen Matthew Rhys in The Americans?

    Might be my favourite TV show ever..
    Timed this one really badly at the end of the last thread and would love to know if anyone else enjoyed The Wine Show or The Americans?
    Lost my way with The Americans but Matthew Rhys is great in Perry Mason if you haven't caught it
    The Americans was great TV. Good ending.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,355

    They are embossed.

    You mean not embossed
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999

    Voter ID, vaccination passports... we're headed for ID cards, aren't we?

    "Papers please..."

    Ja.

    A former Labour MP tweets.

    Labour should outflank the Tories on this and call for a free National ID card for everyone. Labour legislated for ID cards in 2009 but it was stopped by the 2010 Tory/Lib Dem Cameron/Clegg coalition. It would ensure equity, combat identity theft and answer voter fraud concerns.

    https://twitter.com/MikeGapes/status/1392223300429008897

    That was in reply to a tweet pointing out

    3.5 million voters in the UK have no form of photo ID and 11 million have no passport or driving licence – poor and BME groups in particular.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,265

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    I'd go for the parcel example the government cites.

    Here's the list of permissible ID that you need to pick up a parcel at your local post office.

    We’ll accept any of these:
    • Birth certificate
    • Building society book
    • Cheque book
    • Cheque guarantee card
    • Council tax payment book
    • Credit card
    • Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
    • Debit card
    • Full driving licence
    • Marriage certificate
    • Military photo ID
    • Police Warrant Card
    • Foreign national identity card
    • National Savings bank book
    • Valid passport
    • Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
    • Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
    • Trade union card

    https://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/collection-services
    Most bank and credit cards dont even have your full name (not sure why?). Id guess most utility bills are paid online, typically by direct debit, so no way of knowing if it has been paid or not.
    My major issue with debit cards at the moment is the brilliant idea of putting your full sort code and account number on the front of your card*.

    That won't help fraudsters/thieves if you misplace your card.

    *My new TSB card has nothing on the front and everything listed on the back, including the account number and sort code.
    Are you suggesting that fraudsters and thieves aren't able to turn the card over?
    It makes cloning the card difficult,

    The numbers aren't raised on cards like they are on most debit/credit cards.

    They are embossed.
    Who clones a card via the raised numbers nowadays?

    Surely it's all about the chip, or if you want a copy of the cards details then you could take an image of the card with a phone in a fraction of a second. The raised numbers are irrelevant for a photo.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999
    Scott_xP said:

    They are embossed.

    You mean not embossed
    Yeah, I'm missing out more words than usual.

    A sign that I need to go to bed.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 37,868
    Leon said:

    fpt on Sleeper Trains COZ ITS IMPORTANT


    The Caledonian Sleeper is insanely expensive compared to other routes (airlines, normal trains)

    Yet it is consistently sold out, even in First Class - and they have pretty crap trains, still, despite some updating

    The new thing in travel is Experience, not just arriving somewhere on a normal boring plane to sit on a beach. Going by sleeper - especially on a brilliant route like Euston-Fort William - is an amazing experience IN ITSELF.

    Other famous sleeper trains around the world - the Ghan for sure, maybe the Trans Siberian? - are also commercially successful. People want to have the experience

    Why do you want to SLEEP during a train journey? I'd rather do the journey in stages during the daytime so I can take in the scenery and sights.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,214

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    I'd go for the parcel example the government cites.

    Here's the list of permissible ID that you need to pick up a parcel at your local post office.

    We’ll accept any of these:
    • Birth certificate
    • Building society book
    • Cheque book
    • Cheque guarantee card
    • Council tax payment book
    • Credit card
    • Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
    • Debit card
    • Full driving licence
    • Marriage certificate
    • Military photo ID
    • Police Warrant Card
    • Foreign national identity card
    • National Savings bank book
    • Valid passport
    • Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
    • Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
    • Trade union card

    https://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/collection-services
    Most bank and credit cards dont even have your full name (not sure why?). Id guess most utility bills are paid online, typically by direct debit, so no way of knowing if it has been paid or not.
    My major issue with debit cards at the moment is the brilliant idea of putting your full sort code and account number on the front of your card*.

    That won't help fraudsters/thieves if you misplace your card.

    *My new TSB card has nothing on the front and everything listed on the back, including the account number and sort code.
    The other problem with cards is they're obsolete.

    I've stopped carrying a wallet quite frequently. I pay with my phone or my watch.
    I virtually never pay by cheque. Online yes since tge ability to conform.tge payee...but never by phone and I don't have watch technology. I don't trust either.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 30,310
    I have to say I'm extremely unbothered by this. Ireland manage to conduct elections and require ID to vote without any issues. In fact we're one of very few countries that doesn't require any ID to vote.

    I'd compare our voting system to a financial system regulated by BaFin. We're not finding anything because we're not actively looking, that doesn't mean it isn't there.

    Specific free voter ID cards which have no other utility would be fine. The only concern I have is that this government or a future one will use them as a basis for a national ID card system. Again I'm much less against them now than I was previously and I do see some utility for a static ID card having had one in Switzerland for a couple of years but we'd end up with some nightmare of social credit and checking in with local councils using the data to fine people for putting the wrong type of rubbish in their recycling bins.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 3,719

    eek said:

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Eventually the Tories will lose power and then the left take power and then make it harder for Tories to vote then you'll have no moral ground to complain.
    No they will just let 16 year olds and other groups who currently don't have the vote take part.
    I'd expect them to reduce the availability of postal votes to those overseas.

    Make the older Tory vote stand in line to vote.
    No mention of that in the discussion document
    I'm talking about a future Labour government's plans.

    This would be the tat for the Tory tit.
    Because Labour's 2019 manifesto didn't already propose lowering the voting age to 16 and extending the franchise to millions of EU and non-EU residents alike in order to give themselves a permanent demographic advantage?

    They're going to do whatever they're going to do. So, therefore, should we.
    You sound like an American Southerner complaining about giving the blacks the vote.
    And you sound a bit dense. Votes are for citizens, not residents. Labour wanted to rig the system in their favour in the most shameless manner in modern history, but I don't recall you complaining about that.
    Hmm, let me think now, TSE or BluestBlue. Now which of these two posters would I associate with sounding “a bit dense” 😂
    There's only one I would describe as the wisest fool, in Christendom or elsewhere.

    Seriously- I'm going to think of this as a measurement problem. (It's the same issue that opinion polling has, actually.)

    The job of elections is to measure the Will of the People. In particular, who, overall, do the electors of X town want to represent them on the council or in Parliament?

    There are potential flaws in the current system of voting. It's pretty hard to register non-existent people, but dead people do stay on the roll for a bit. Maybe there's an abuse there. Perhaps we should find a tactful way of linking the register of deaths to the electoral roll. But if personation were happening in any significant numbers, we'd know about it- because lots of people would turn up and find that their vote had already happened. Not much evidence of that.

    We could solve that problem with a requirement for ID. But any requirement for ID will mean that some people don't vote. If the requirements are onerous (and if it includes going to a council office in person in office hours, that counts as onerous) then quite a few people won't vote. Worse than that, they won't be a random slice of the population. And in that case, the election results might do a worse job of reflecting the WOTP than before.

    Frankly, it would serve the government right if it means that rootless cosmopolitans can vote (because they all have passports) and some proudly patriotic government supporters can't.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 14,634
    Here's a question - do people routinely carry their driving licence with them? Mine lives in a cupboard.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 10,353
    An acquaintance of mine wrote about her experience of Long Covid

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9292521/100-days-long-Covid-torture-counting.html


    It is not fun. Please god let this Indian variant Feck Off
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,219
    tlg86 said:

    Most of the alleged voter fraud hotspots seem to be in safe Labour seats, so unlikely to swing an election.

    I doubt it’s an issue in Westminster elections. I suspect it’s more of a problem in locals.
    Evidence of these hotspots?

    Reminds me of discussions about how Mayor Daley "stole" the 1960 presidential election for Richard Nixon, by allegedly swinging the vote his way in Cook County.

    Without knowing (or bothering to mention) that

    > the only real in-depth study of actual votes concluded that while there was some funny business in the Windy City, it was NOT aimed at getting JFK elected (rather at defeating a Daley foe for Cook County Prosecuting Attorney, far more important to His Honor) and was not sufficient to change the statewide outcome.

    > particular since there was a documented history of vote rigging by the Republicans in downstate Illinois, not everywhere certainly, but hardly rare right up through the mid-60s.

    For example of #2, friend of mine was a Democratic poll watcher while a student at U of Illinois, and was assigned to a somewhat notorious poll site. When he arrived early on Election Day (mid 60s) before polls opened, the Republican poll inspector was already there, along with a closed ballot box.

    So my friend asked to have the box opened so he could inspect it, as per state law.

    His request was refused - until the inspector had taken the box to another room to "consult"with the other GOP poll officials. When the returned with the box, it was open - and empty!

    Result: first time that precinct voted Democratic in living memory.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited May 11

    eek said:

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Eventually the Tories will lose power and then the left take power and then make it harder for Tories to vote then you'll have no moral ground to complain.
    No they will just let 16 year olds and other groups who currently don't have the vote take part.
    I'd expect them to reduce the availability of postal votes to those overseas.

    Make the older Tory vote stand in line to vote.
    No mention of that in the discussion document
    I'm talking about a future Labour government's plans.

    This would be the tat for the Tory tit.
    Because Labour's 2019 manifesto didn't already propose lowering the voting age to 16 and extending the franchise to millions of EU and non-EU residents alike in order to give themselves a permanent demographic advantage?

    They're going to do whatever they're going to do. So, therefore, should we.
    You sound like an American Southerner complaining about giving the blacks the vote.
    And you sound a bit dense. Votes are for citizens, not residents. Labour wanted to rig the system in their favour in the most shameless manner in modern history, but I don't recall you complaining about that.
    I did actually.

    The Scottish experience persuaded me that 16 and 17 year olds should have the vote, but for EU citizens a vote in general elections is off, if they want the vote they can apply for citizenship.
    So you do see how vast the implications of their plans were. If Labour had won the election, they would have immediately enfranchised every person over the age of 16 in this country, thus shifting the balance of power well to the left of what either of us would like to see for the foreseeable future. This got almost no news coverage during the election, despite the fact that it approached Brexit itself in its potential consequences.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 37,868

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    I'd go for the parcel example the government cites.

    Here's the list of permissible ID that you need to pick up a parcel at your local post office.

    We’ll accept any of these:
    • Birth certificate
    • Building society book
    • Cheque book
    • Cheque guarantee card
    • Council tax payment book
    • Credit card
    • Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
    • Debit card
    • Full driving licence
    • Marriage certificate
    • Military photo ID
    • Police Warrant Card
    • Foreign national identity card
    • National Savings bank book
    • Valid passport
    • Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
    • Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
    • Trade union card

    https://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/collection-services
    Most bank and credit cards dont even have your full name (not sure why?). Id guess most utility bills are paid online, typically by direct debit, so no way of knowing if it has been paid or not.
    My major issue with debit cards at the moment is the brilliant idea of putting your full sort code and account number on the front of your card*.

    That won't help fraudsters/thieves if you misplace your card.

    *My new TSB card has nothing on the front and everything listed on the back, including the account number and sort code.
    The other problem with cards is they're obsolete.

    I've stopped carrying a wallet quite frequently. I pay with my phone or my watch.
    Suppose you lose or forget your phone?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 16,964

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    I'd go for the parcel example the government cites.

    Here's the list of permissible ID that you need to pick up a parcel at your local post office.

    We’ll accept any of these:
    • Birth certificate
    • Building society book
    • Cheque book
    • Cheque guarantee card
    • Council tax payment book
    • Credit card
    • Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
    • Debit card
    • Full driving licence
    • Marriage certificate
    • Military photo ID
    • Police Warrant Card
    • Foreign national identity card
    • National Savings bank book
    • Valid passport
    • Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
    • Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
    • Trade union card

    https://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/collection-services
    Most bank and credit cards dont even have your full name (not sure why?). Id guess most utility bills are paid online, typically by direct debit, so no way of knowing if it has been paid or not.
    My major issue with debit cards at the moment is the brilliant idea of putting your full sort code and account number on the front of your card*.

    That won't help fraudsters/thieves if you misplace your card.

    *My new TSB card has nothing on the front and everything listed on the back, including the account number and sort code.
    Cheques have always had your sort code and account number printed on them of course.
    What is a cheque book?

    I don't think people take their cheque book everywhere like a debit card.
    Er... my 89 year old father-in-law still does.

    But my point is that sort code and account number has never been protected information. Nor should they be: knowing somebody's sort code and account number should not, and does not, give you access to empty their account.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,265

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Er... does 'the left' = @TSE these days? My how the world changes.
    Yes.

    If this is about Republicans why have the Electoral Commission been in favour of this since 2014? I've not seen a good answer for that instead it's copying American debates primarily.
    Because the original electoral commission plans had a variety of permissible ID, the new plans want exclusively photo ID or a approval from the local council beforehand.
    Good answer.

    So pushing for an amendment for more forms of ID seems like a good thing to do then?
    I'd go for the parcel example the government cites.

    Here's the list of permissible ID that you need to pick up a parcel at your local post office.

    We’ll accept any of these:
    • Birth certificate
    • Building society book
    • Cheque book
    • Cheque guarantee card
    • Council tax payment book
    • Credit card
    • Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
    • Debit card
    • Full driving licence
    • Marriage certificate
    • Military photo ID
    • Police Warrant Card
    • Foreign national identity card
    • National Savings bank book
    • Valid passport
    • Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
    • Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
    • Trade union card

    https://www.postoffice.co.uk/mail/collection-services
    Most bank and credit cards dont even have your full name (not sure why?). Id guess most utility bills are paid online, typically by direct debit, so no way of knowing if it has been paid or not.
    My major issue with debit cards at the moment is the brilliant idea of putting your full sort code and account number on the front of your card*.

    That won't help fraudsters/thieves if you misplace your card.

    *My new TSB card has nothing on the front and everything listed on the back, including the account number and sort code.
    The other problem with cards is they're obsolete.

    I've stopped carrying a wallet quite frequently. I pay with my phone or my watch.
    I virtually never pay by cheque. Online yes since tge ability to conform.tge payee...but never by phone and I don't have watch technology. I don't trust either.
    I trust phone technology much more than I trust cards, and it's more convenient by far. Use my fingerprint to unlock the phone, choose which card I'm using, tap the contactless, done.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 37,868

    eek said:

    If the PM was really interested in cracking down on electoral fraud he'd make obtaining a postal vote much harder but that's not going to happen given how many Tories use postals.

    The more the left whine at the injustice of it all and how it is going to adversely affect the voters Boris courts, the more likely one is attracted to looking at the doublethink aspect to their attack.
    Eventually the Tories will lose power and then the left take power and then make it harder for Tories to vote then you'll have no moral ground to complain.
    No they will just let 16 year olds and other groups who currently don't have the vote take part.
    I'd expect them to reduce the availability of postal votes to those overseas.

    Make the older Tory vote stand in line to vote.
    No mention of that in the discussion document
    I'm talking about a future Labour government's plans.

    This would be the tat for the Tory tit.
    Because Labour's 2019 manifesto didn't already propose lowering the voting age to 16 and extending the franchise to millions of EU and non-EU residents alike in order to give themselves a permanent demographic advantage?

    They're going to do whatever they're going to do. So, therefore, should we.
    You sound like an American Southerner complaining about giving the blacks the vote.
    And you sound a bit dense. Votes are for citizens, not residents. Labour wanted to rig the system in their favour in the most shameless manner in modern history, but I don't recall you complaining about that.
    Hmm, let me think now, TSE or BluestBlue. Now which of these two posters would I associate with sounding “a bit dense” 😂
    TSE has a Northern accent :lol:

    :lol::lol:
This discussion has been closed.