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Size does matter in Hartlepool – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,016
edited May 2021 in General
imageSize does matter in Hartlepool – politicalbetting.com

Ever since the Hartlepool by election has been called I’ve vacillated between a Tory gain and a easy Labour hold. If Richard Tice and the Brexit Party hadn’t stood in this seat in 2019 then this would have been a Tory gain at the 2019 general election so that is what I drove my belief that this should be a Tory gain at the by election particularly once it was confirmed Richard Tice wasn’t standing, however it isn’t December 2019 now.

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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,552
    Could the X factor in Hartlepoole, and elsewhere, be desire of a section of Tory and Conservative-leaning voters, to (as I think Casino Royale put it) to show their displeasure with certain aspects of the incumbent PM and his entourage, but without risking (at this juncture certainly) regime change?

    Has happened before at by-elections and locals, and will no doubt happen again. So why not now?
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,552
    Tarrant
    Wright 9,133
    Ellzey 4,723
    Sanchez 8,263
    91% counted

    Ellis
    W 4,498
    E 5,431
    S 1,835
    100% counted

    Navarro
    W 1,389
    E 688
    S 378
    100% counted

    Appears there is bit more there there in Tarrant than AP/NYT first thought. Though keep in mind, there will be a few votes (provisionals and some others) that will remain to be counted after tonight in all three counties. But not many.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,552
    IF the runoff is GOP versus GOP, then would expect Ellzey to come under significant pressure from Trumpsky, US House Republican Conference and other national & state GOP power centers, to fold his tent and end his campaign, despite fact his name's on the runoff ballot regardless (provided that Sanchez does NOT nip past him in the remaining votes).
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    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    Labour by under 2000 votes looks tasty but I reckon too close. Byelection turnout of say 40% (maybe 50%) and Labour would be chuffed by a majority of 2000....... if its wet & cold then turnout could be dire and anything to play for
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,552
    Susan Wright
    Republican
    15,020 19.2%

    Jake Ellzey
    Republican
    10,842 13.9

    Jana Lynne Sanchez
    Democrat
    10,476 13.4

    Brian Harrison
    Republican
    8,474 10.8

    Shawn Lassiter
    Democrat
    6,941 8.9

    John Castro
    Republican
    4,308 5.5

    Tammy Allison
    Democrat
    4,221 5.4

    Lydia Bean
    Democrat
    2,913 3.7

    Michael Wood
    Republican
    2,497 3.2

    Michael Ballantine
    Republican
    2,212 2.8

    Dan Rodimer
    Republican
    2,082 2.7

    Daryl Eddings
    Democrat
    1,641 2.1

    Mike Egan
    Republican
    1,541 2.0

    Patrick Moses
    Democrat
    1,183 1.5

    Manuel Salazar
    Democrat
    1,117 1.4

    Sery Kim
    Republican
    887 1.1

    Travis Rodermund
    Republican
    459 0.6

    Adrian Mizher
    Independent
    351 0.4

    Brian Stephenson
    Democrat
    271 0.3

    Phil Gray
    Libertarian
    264 0.3

    Matt Hinterlong
    Democrat
    252 0.3

    Jenny Sharon
    Republican
    150 0.2

    Chris Suprun
    Democrat
    102 0.1

    Total reported
    78,204
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,552
    Austin, Texas the most progressive / least conservative major city in the Lone Star State, has voted in favor of homeless camping ban.

    Also voted in favor of municipal ranked choice voting but against public financing of city elections via $25 "Democracy Vouchers" given to voters for donating to favored candidates (system has been used in Seattle for several election cycles, with more & more candidates & campaigns) Austin voters also approved measure transferring appointment power of new police oversight commissioner from city manager to city council.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,552
    edited May 2021
    From Texas Tribune -

    > Voters in Lubbock Texas in the Panhandle voted in favor of anti-abortion ordinance declaring the city the state's largest "sanctuary city for the unborn"
    > In Fort Worth mayoral race, Mattie Parker and Deborah Peoples will head to a runoff
    > Ron Nirenberg wins a third term as San Antonio Mayor
    > San Antonio measure stripping police of collective bargaining power could be a nail-biter

    Re: Fort Worth, mayor is elected on non-partisan basis (as in all Texas cities). Current mayor Betsy Price, a Republican, one of the few to currently govern a major American city. Two candidates topped the primary and will advance to the general: Mattie Parker, aide to Mayor Price and a fellow GOPer; and Deborah Peoples, chair of the Tarrant County Democratic Party.

    Texas Tribune: "The race marks a political inflection point for Fort Worth. It is the seat of a county — Tarrant — that was once the state’s biggest red county, but that status has fallen into question after it went blue at the top of the ticket in the two most recent statewide elections. The county went for Beto O’Rourke in 2018 and Joe Biden in 2020."

  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,552
    With 100% reporting (save for a few odds & ends)

    Susan Wright
    Republican
    15,052 19.2%

    Jake Ellzey
    Republican
    10,851 13.8

    Jana Lynne Sanchez
    Democrat
    10,497 13.4

    Brian Harrison
    Republican
    8,476 10.8

    Shawn Lassiter
    Democrat
    6,964 8.9%

    Total reported
    78,374

    AP/NYT has NOT called the race between Ellzey and Sanchez for 2nd place and a spot on the May 24th runoff ballot. So it must still be theoretically possible for her pass Ellzey. But I doubt it's gonna happen.

    Also doubt, based on tonight's results, that Sanchez could beat Wright later this month. Feel the same way about Ellzey.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,552
    Tarrant
    Wright 9,165
    Ellzey 4,732
    Sanchez 8,284
    100%

    Ellis
    W 4,498
    E 5,431
    S 1,835
    100%

    Navarro
    W 1,389
    E 688
    S 378
    100%
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,261

    Labour by under 2000 votes looks tasty but I reckon too close. Byelection turnout of say 40% (maybe 50%) and Labour would be chuffed by a majority of 2000....... if its wet & cold then turnout could be dire and anything to play for

    The worse the turnout, the better a bet it becomes
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    AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    That 5/2 looks like the value, small Lab majority on a low turnout.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    betting Post

    F1: with some reservations, I've backed Russell for points at 3.3. He qualified 11th on pace, he was just half a tenth off Q3, and he has tyre choice.

    What happened last time makes this a little reluctant but nothing else leapt out at me.

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2021/05/portugal-pre-race-2021.html
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to any others taste.

    Not sure about Carrie's standards for anything, on the evidence given so far.

    And, fixed the last line for you!

    And, good morning one and all.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    edited May 2021
    If Richard Tice and the Brexit Party hadn’t stood in this seat in 2019 then this would have been a Tory gain at the 2019 general election

    Shouldn’t there be a fairly significant caveat to that:

    if the Brexit party voters had voted Tory

    I can’t help but wonder how many Brexit party voters were those who felt unable to vote Tory, bearing in mind that we all knew the Faragista ego trip would win no seats while the larger the Tory majority, the easier Brexit would be.

    Edit - we will of course get some indication of this in Hartlepool and Wales. If Brexit voters do head towards the Blues, Labour are toast in Hartlepool and face being wiped out outside the core Valleys; they will probably also lose Torfaen.

    But I can’t see it happening.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,261
    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.

    Hardly the first time the clown would have blown money, usually ours, on things that never get used.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    betting Post

    F1: with some reservations, I've backed Russell for points at 3.3. He qualified 11th on pace, he was just half a tenth off Q3, and he has tyre choice.

    What happened last time makes this a little reluctant but nothing else leapt out at me.

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2021/05/portugal-pre-race-2021.html

    Yes, good bet. 11th place does usually move forward during the race because of the tyre restrictions on the top 10.

    Assuming he doesn’t bin it, take out one of the championship contenders in the car he wants to drive next season, get upset with everyone except himself and annoy all the bosses in the process.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Sandit, aye. Wasn't impressed with Russell's response. Racing incident, but the error was on his side.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,993
    AlistairM said:


    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    He has just procured and had painted (at vast expense and with taxpayers' money) a VVIP A321 - not to be confused with VIP A330 and its million quid paint job. There is zero chance he (and FLOTUK) are going to relinquish the post-covid junkets in that to the Goldman-Sachs Elf and his Mrs any time soon.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    edited May 2021

    Mr. Sandit, aye. Wasn't impressed with Russell's response. Racing incident, but the error was on his side.

    Toto’s quip that he’ll be entering George in next year’s Clio Cup championship was rather amusing though!

    Apparently, George flew back to England in the Mercedes bizjet after the race, I’m sure the pair of them had time for a relaxing chat about the situation!

    Edit: just noticed Bottas is 5 to win on BF Ex, which is a little high for the man starting on pole!
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    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.

    Perhaps T May's John Lewis stuff could have been saved from the skip........
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Sandpit, aye, but his race performances have been off the mark so far.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Dura_Ace said:

    AlistairM said:


    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    He has just procured and had painted (at vast expense and with taxpayers' money) a VVIP A321 - not to be confused with VIP A330 and its million quid paint job. There is zero chance he (and FLOTUK) are going to relinquish the post-covid junkets in that to the Goldman-Sachs Elf and his Mrs any time soon.
    We come back again to the fact that no Prime Minister since Wilson has given up power before they had to. And he was only the third (at most) in the twentieth century, after Baldwin and possibly Salisbury, who was a lot more ill than he realised.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,261
    Simon Jenkins: By the end of next week, the bizarre “union of four nations”, much cited during Covid, could be seriously at risk. As throughout history, England is hopeless at managing such risks. Boris Johnson seized power by championing British nationalism, yet he has only contempt for the nationalism of others. Last November Johnson called granting more power to Scotland “a disaster”, declaring devolution to be “Tony Blair’s biggest mistake”. That may soon be another quote he will deny ever having said.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    IanB2 said:

    Simon Jenkins: By the end of next week, the bizarre “union of four nations”, much cited during Covid, could be seriously at risk. As throughout history, England is hopeless at managing such risks. Boris Johnson seized power by championing British nationalism, yet he has only contempt for the nationalism of others. Last November Johnson called granting more power to Scotland “a disaster”, declaring devolution to be “Tony Blair’s biggest mistake”. That may soon be another quote he will deny ever having said.

    Which would be ironic, as arguably it was a rare moment that Johnson was right.

    That is said on the basis the Iraq War would have happened whether we took part or not.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,314
    On topic, I'm not seeing the value in these bets.

    I'd want more than 5/1 to back Labour by 2,000+ votes.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    IanB2 said:

    Simon Jenkins: By the end of next week, the bizarre “union of four nations”, much cited during Covid, could be seriously at risk. As throughout history, England is hopeless at managing such risks. Boris Johnson seized power by championing British nationalism, yet he has only contempt for the nationalism of others. Last November Johnson called granting more power to Scotland “a disaster”, declaring devolution to be “Tony Blair’s biggest mistake”. That may soon be another quote he will deny ever having said.

    It’s sad that so many of the Commentariat seem to be gleefully talking up the dissolution of the country, purely as a means to get back at Johnson and Brexit.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,955

    On topic, I'm not seeing the value in these bets.

    I'd want more than 5/1 to back Labour by 2,000+ votes.

    In order of probability I'd say:

    Con by 2k or less
    Lab by 2k or less
    Con by 2k or more
    Anything else
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Simon Jenkins: By the end of next week, the bizarre “union of four nations”, much cited during Covid, could be seriously at risk. As throughout history, England is hopeless at managing such risks. Boris Johnson seized power by championing British nationalism, yet he has only contempt for the nationalism of others. Last November Johnson called granting more power to Scotland “a disaster”, declaring devolution to be “Tony Blair’s biggest mistake”. That may soon be another quote he will deny ever having said.

    It’s sad that so many of the Commentariat seem to be gleefully talking up the dissolution of the country, purely as a means to get back at Johnson and Brexit.
    I wonder whether Johnson might go for repeal of the Scottish Parliament Act.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,314
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, I'm not seeing the value in these bets.

    I'd want more than 5/1 to back Labour by 2,000+ votes.

    In order of probability I'd say:

    Con by 2k or less
    Lab by 2k or less
    Con by 2k or more
    Anything else
    Probably, yes, but it's a bit of a shot in the dark.

    We really are guessing so I'd want attractive odds that reflect that.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.

    Whenever he leaves he can go back to earning the big money.
    But he will find it pretty difficult if not impossible to become PM again.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,537
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Simon Jenkins: By the end of next week, the bizarre “union of four nations”, much cited during Covid, could be seriously at risk. As throughout history, England is hopeless at managing such risks. Boris Johnson seized power by championing British nationalism, yet he has only contempt for the nationalism of others. Last November Johnson called granting more power to Scotland “a disaster”, declaring devolution to be “Tony Blair’s biggest mistake”. That may soon be another quote he will deny ever having said.

    It’s sad that so many of the Commentariat seem to be gleefully talking up the dissolution of the country, purely as a means to get back at Johnson and Brexit.
    A touch of shoot the messenger about that comment.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Yeah I reckon the 5/1 is value. Labour are probably polling a bit better than in 2019 and if some polls are right, much better.

    I also don't think it's a given that those Brexit party voters all go Tory (or don't just stay home now Brexit is delivered).
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    AlistairM said:


    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    He has just procured and had painted (at vast expense and with taxpayers' money) a VVIP A321 - not to be confused with VIP A330 and its million quid paint job. There is zero chance he (and FLOTUK) are going to relinquish the post-covid junkets in that to the Goldman-Sachs Elf and his Mrs any time soon.
    We come back again to the fact that no Prime Minister since Wilson has given up power before they had to. And he was only the third (at most) in the twentieth century, after Baldwin and possibly Salisbury, who was a lot more ill than he realised.
    Eden?, though medical again, as indeed was Wilson.

    I remember turning a corner in Westminster in about 1983, and bumped into an old couple, the lady helping a very fragile looking old man. He looked familiar, and sure enough it was the Wilsons.

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,612
    Some fascinating detail in this, including the bafflingly surreal one that, while Scottish voters think the SNP Scottish Government has done badly on education, they think it has done well on immigration and defence.

    Could someone please have a stern word with Scottish voters?


    https://twitter.com/dhothersall/status/1388747777031692290?s=20
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Simon Jenkins: By the end of next week, the bizarre “union of four nations”, much cited during Covid, could be seriously at risk. As throughout history, England is hopeless at managing such risks. Boris Johnson seized power by championing British nationalism, yet he has only contempt for the nationalism of others. Last November Johnson called granting more power to Scotland “a disaster”, declaring devolution to be “Tony Blair’s biggest mistake”. That may soon be another quote he will deny ever having said.

    It’s sad that so many of the Commentariat seem to be gleefully talking up the dissolution of the country, purely as a means to get back at Johnson and Brexit.
    The Commentariat are an embittered bunch, failing to get to grips with a world where people no longer need to pay them for their detached, lofty opinions to which we should defer. The glitterati of the Twitterati will now do that for free, within seconds.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341
    rkrkrk said:

    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.

    Whenever he leaves he can go back to earning the big money.
    But he will find it pretty difficult if not impossible to become PM again.
    That is true. Retiring from Number 10 is a one-shot deal.

    On the other hand, does Boris want to get bogged down in the minutiae of post-Brexit trade, Scottish independence and Northern Ireland border issues? Boris has done, or at least announced, the fun stuff already. And he had to be leant on to run for a second term as Mayor.

    Boris is not old. He will turn 57 in June. But that is already older than David Cameron and Tony Blair when they retired.

    I do not expect Boris to contest the 2024 election. I should not be surprised if he steps down this year.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105

    Some fascinating detail in this, including the bafflingly surreal one that, while Scottish voters think the SNP Scottish Government has done badly on education, they think it has done well on immigration and defence.

    Could someone please have a stern word with Scottish voters?


    https://twitter.com/dhothersall/status/1388747777031692290?s=20

    Indy Scotland is going to be a place where the Scots are asked to believe six impossible things before breakfast.
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,783
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Simon Jenkins: By the end of next week, the bizarre “union of four nations”, much cited during Covid, could be seriously at risk. As throughout history, England is hopeless at managing such risks. Boris Johnson seized power by championing British nationalism, yet he has only contempt for the nationalism of others. Last November Johnson called granting more power to Scotland “a disaster”, declaring devolution to be “Tony Blair’s biggest mistake”. That may soon be another quote he will deny ever having said.

    It’s sad that so many of the Commentariat seem to be gleefully talking up the dissolution of the country, purely as a means to get back at Johnson and Brexit.
    What is sad is how glibly and cavalierly such concerns were brushed away back in 2016
    True if people cared so much for the UK they wouldn’t have voted for Brexit. Leavers need to own the consequences of their vote and stop either blaming the EU or Remainers for the all the problems that this has caused .
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592

    rkrkrk said:

    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.

    Whenever he leaves he can go back to earning the big money.
    But he will find it pretty difficult if not impossible to become PM again.
    That is true. Retiring from Number 10 is a one-shot deal.

    On the other hand, does Boris want to get bogged down in the minutiae of post-Brexit trade, Scottish independence and Northern Ireland border issues? Boris has done, or at least announced, the fun stuff already. And he had to be leant on to run for a second term as Mayor.

    Boris is not old. He will turn 57 in June. But that is already older than David Cameron and Tony Blair when they retired.

    I do not expect Boris to contest the 2024 election. I should not be surprised if he steps down this year.
    Starmer is slightly older than Johnson. Both are likely to to be the last Boomer party leaders.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Simon Jenkins: By the end of next week, the bizarre “union of four nations”, much cited during Covid, could be seriously at risk. As throughout history, England is hopeless at managing such risks. Boris Johnson seized power by championing British nationalism, yet he has only contempt for the nationalism of others. Last November Johnson called granting more power to Scotland “a disaster”, declaring devolution to be “Tony Blair’s biggest mistake”. That may soon be another quote he will deny ever having said.

    It’s sad that so many of the Commentariat seem to be gleefully talking up the dissolution of the country, purely as a means to get back at Johnson and Brexit.
    I wonder whether Johnson might go for repeal of the Scottish Parliament Act.
    I’m not quite sure he goes that far, but a wide-ranging constitutional convention is long overdue. The current asymmetric devolution arrangement, with no English Parliament, isn’t working.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    AlistairM said:


    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    He has just procured and had painted (at vast expense and with taxpayers' money) a VVIP A321 - not to be confused with VIP A330 and its million quid paint job. There is zero chance he (and FLOTUK) are going to relinquish the post-covid junkets in that to the Goldman-Sachs Elf and his Mrs any time soon.
    We come back again to the fact that no Prime Minister since Wilson has given up power before they had to. And he was only the third (at most) in the twentieth century, after Baldwin and possibly Salisbury, who was a lot more ill than he realised.
    Eden?, though medical again, as indeed was Wilson.

    I remember turning a corner in Westminster in about 1983, and bumped into an old couple, the lady helping a very fragile looking old man. He looked familiar, and sure enough it was the Wilsons.

    He has a nice resting place in Old Town churchyard on St. Mary's, Scilly.

    He regularly gets a bunch of twitchers wandering around his grave.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341
    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.

    Whenever he leaves he can go back to earning the big money.
    But he will find it pretty difficult if not impossible to become PM again.
    That is true. Retiring from Number 10 is a one-shot deal.

    On the other hand, does Boris want to get bogged down in the minutiae of post-Brexit trade, Scottish independence and Northern Ireland border issues? Boris has done, or at least announced, the fun stuff already. And he had to be leant on to run for a second term as Mayor.

    Boris is not old. He will turn 57 in June. But that is already older than David Cameron and Tony Blair when they retired.

    I do not expect Boris to contest the 2024 election. I should not be surprised if he steps down this year.
    Starmer is slightly older than Johnson. Both are likely to to be the last Boomer party leaders.
    That reminds me of an old observation by Ken Livingstone, talking about MPs' salaries. For most Conservatives, it's a pay cut. For most Labour MPs, it's the most they've earned in their lives.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    AlistairM said:


    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    He has just procured and had painted (at vast expense and with taxpayers' money) a VVIP A321 - not to be confused with VIP A330 and its million quid paint job. There is zero chance he (and FLOTUK) are going to relinquish the post-covid junkets in that to the Goldman-Sachs Elf and his Mrs any time soon.
    We come back again to the fact that no Prime Minister since Wilson has given up power before they had to. And he was only the third (at most) in the twentieth century, after Baldwin and possibly Salisbury, who was a lot more ill than he realised.
    Eden?, though medical again, as indeed was Wilson.

    I remember turning a corner in Westminster in about 1983, and bumped into an old couple, the lady helping a very fragile looking old man. He looked familiar, and sure enough it was the Wilsons.

    Eden was told that he would die if he continued in office. (Macmillan was told of course that he was terminally ill, a diagnosis that turned out to be wrong.)

    Wilson had early stage colon cancer and Alzheimer’s, but the main reason he left seems to have been he was fed up with the role and wanted to retire. He did not *have* to give up power at the time he did.

    I have to say I think there is a difference there.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    nico679 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Simon Jenkins: By the end of next week, the bizarre “union of four nations”, much cited during Covid, could be seriously at risk. As throughout history, England is hopeless at managing such risks. Boris Johnson seized power by championing British nationalism, yet he has only contempt for the nationalism of others. Last November Johnson called granting more power to Scotland “a disaster”, declaring devolution to be “Tony Blair’s biggest mistake”. That may soon be another quote he will deny ever having said.

    It’s sad that so many of the Commentariat seem to be gleefully talking up the dissolution of the country, purely as a means to get back at Johnson and Brexit.
    What is sad is how glibly and cavalierly such concerns were brushed away back in 2016
    True if people cared so much for the UK they wouldn’t have voted for Brexit. Leavers need to own the consequences of their vote and stop either blaming the EU or Remainers for the all the problems that this has caused .
    No surprises there.

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    AlistairM said:


    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    He has just procured and had painted (at vast expense and with taxpayers' money) a VVIP A321 - not to be confused with VIP A330 and its million quid paint job. There is zero chance he (and FLOTUK) are going to relinquish the post-covid junkets in that to the Goldman-Sachs Elf and his Mrs any time soon.
    We come back again to the fact that no Prime Minister since Wilson has given up power before they had to. And he was only the third (at most) in the twentieth century, after Baldwin and possibly Salisbury, who was a lot more ill than he realised.
    Eden?, though medical again, as indeed was Wilson.

    I remember turning a corner in Westminster in about 1983, and bumped into an old couple, the lady helping a very fragile looking old man. He looked familiar, and sure enough it was the Wilsons.

    He has a nice resting place in Old Town churchyard on St. Mary's, Scilly.

    He regularly gets a bunch of twitchers wandering around his grave.
    One thing Britain is very poor at is a role for ex PMs. John Major seems comfortable as an elder statesman, but none of the others ever seemed comfortable in the role.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.

    Whenever he leaves he can go back to earning the big money.
    But he will find it pretty difficult if not impossible to become PM again.
    That is true. Retiring from Number 10 is a one-shot deal.

    On the other hand, does Boris want to get bogged down in the minutiae of post-Brexit trade, Scottish independence and Northern Ireland border issues? Boris has done, or at least announced, the fun stuff already. And he had to be leant on to run for a second term as Mayor.

    Boris is not old. He will turn 57 in June. But that is already older than David Cameron and Tony Blair when they retired.

    I do not expect Boris to contest the 2024 election. I should not be surprised if he steps down this year.
    Starmer is slightly older than Johnson. Both are likely to to be the last Boomer party leaders.
    That reminds me of an old observation by Ken Livingstone, talking about MPs' salaries. For most Conservatives, it's a pay cut. For most Labour MPs, it's the most they've earned in their lives.
    That was probably true when he said it. I don’t think that’s necessarily true now. Starmer, for example, must have been on better money as DPP than he was as an ordinary MP. Nick Thomas-Symonds probably earned about the same as a senior Fellow of St Edmund Hall as he does now.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    This is an interesting proposal.

    Covid: Quarantine for Covid contacts could be scrapped
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56958885

    Admittedly, given they cause me to throw up I’d almost rather stay indoors for ten days than do a LFT every day, but given the inconvenience and expense of self isolating I can see why an alternative is needed.

    I’m also hoping this won’t be for long, as once everyone’s been offered a vaccine there won’t be much need to worry about it spreading.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,887

    Indy Scotland is going to be a place where the Scots are asked to believe six impossible things before breakfast.

    Brexiteers can show them how it's done
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Scott_xP said:

    Indy Scotland is going to be a place where the Scots are asked to believe six impossible things before breakfast.

    Brexiteers can show them how it's done
    Not so much Mock Turtle as Total Mocking.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    If Boris Johnson cannot afford to have children, he should stop siring them.

    Justin will shortly be along with a lecture on how the bastard should stop having more bastards...
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,887
    nico679 said:

    Leavers need to own the consequences of their vote and stop either blaming the EU or Remainers for the all the problems that this has caused .

    And I want a pony...
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,046

    Some fascinating detail in this, including the bafflingly surreal one that, while Scottish voters think the SNP Scottish Government has done badly on education, they think it has done well on immigration and defence.

    Could someone please have a stern word with Scottish voters?


    https://twitter.com/dhothersall/status/1388747777031692290?s=20

    Maybe people give the SNP a plus on defence because they like the policies even if they don't have the powers? Which is worrying because it suggests what the SNP is good at requires independence.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,887
    Two columns about truth in politics.

    First from @bbclaurak on @BorisJohnson which includes this warning that sources on the “bodies” quote that Johnson denied at dispatch box could contradict him under oath.

    And in the subject of perjury...1/2


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56624437 https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1388755968092160000/photo/1
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    edited May 2021
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.

    Whenever he leaves he can go back to earning the big money.
    But he will find it pretty difficult if not impossible to become PM again.
    That is true. Retiring from Number 10 is a one-shot deal.

    On the other hand, does Boris want to get bogged down in the minutiae of post-Brexit trade, Scottish independence and Northern Ireland border issues? Boris has done, or at least announced, the fun stuff already. And he had to be leant on to run for a second term as Mayor.

    Boris is not old. He will turn 57 in June. But that is already older than David Cameron and Tony Blair when they retired.

    I do not expect Boris to contest the 2024 election. I should not be surprised if he steps down this year.
    Starmer is slightly older than Johnson. Both are likely to to be the last Boomer party leaders.
    That reminds me of an old observation by Ken Livingstone, talking about MPs' salaries. For most Conservatives, it's a pay cut. For most Labour MPs, it's the most they've earned in their lives.
    That was probably true when he said it. I don’t think that’s necessarily true now. Starmer, for example, must have been on better money as DPP than he was as an ordinary MP. Nick Thomas-Symonds probably earned about the same as a senior Fellow of St Edmund Hall as he does now.
    Personally I’d make an MP salary higher, but with much tighter restrictions on outside earnings. Maybe £90k or so, which would also raise ministerial salaries.

    There’s a separate issue of pay being too high in many other public sector roles, which also needs to be addressed. Six-figure salaries need to come with a risk attached, or be paid relative to performance.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192

    From Texas Tribune -

    > Voters in Lubbock Texas in the Panhandle voted in favor of anti-abortion ordinance declaring the city the state's largest "sanctuary city for the unborn"
    > In Fort Worth mayoral race, Mattie Parker and Deborah Peoples will head to a runoff
    > Ron Nirenberg wins a third term as San Antonio Mayor
    > San Antonio measure stripping police of collective bargaining power could be a nail-biter

    Re: Fort Worth, mayor is elected on non-partisan basis (as in all Texas cities). Current mayor Betsy Price, a Republican, one of the few to currently govern a major American city. Two candidates topped the primary and will advance to the general: Mattie Parker, aide to Mayor Price and a fellow GOPer; and Deborah Peoples, chair of the Tarrant County Democratic Party.

    Texas Tribune: "The race marks a political inflection point for Fort Worth. It is the seat of a county — Tarrant — that was once the state’s biggest red county, but that status has fallen into question after it went blue at the top of the ticket in the two most recent statewide elections. The county went for Beto O’Rourke in 2018 and Joe Biden in 2020."

    Sanctuary City for the Unborn? Despite the unbelievers stealing the election from the righteous, looks like in parts of America there is still hope that one day they will have Gilead.
  • Options
    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,977

    Some fascinating detail in this, including the bafflingly surreal one that, while Scottish voters think the SNP Scottish Government has done badly on education, they think it has done well on immigration and defence.

    Could someone please have a stern word with Scottish voters?


    https://twitter.com/dhothersall/status/1388747777031692290?s=20

    Maybe people give the SNP a plus on defence because they like the policies even if they don't have the powers? Which is worrying because it suggests what the SNP is good at requires independence.
    That could well be the case

    Have we all done our predictions on here for e Scottish elections yet? I still think SNP will fall short of a majority, but will be very tight.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,887
    A good Dominic Lawson column in Sunday Times arguing that 1990s Tory sleaze was far worse — recalling the perjurers Archer, Aitken and Clark, whom he calls a “genuinely evil” man who should have been prosecuted over Matrix Churchill. 2/2

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ea684bbc-aa8f-11eb-acd8-e39d812fcf8b?shareToken=43ec488f85d872a9a7f0142180f8c1a1 https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1388757719621029889/photo/1
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,417
    ydoethur said:

    If Boris Johnson cannot afford to have children, he should stop siring them.

    Justin will shortly be along with a lecture on how the bastard should stop having more bastards...
    To be fair (though not to Justin), there is a genuine problem there.

    Remember the Free School Meal/Foodbox row? One of the arguments, voiced a lot by generic newish Conservative MPs for Redwall North, was that people shouldn't have children they can't afford. It was OK for Boris's spunk to burst out everywhere, because he was paying his way.

    That argument has lost a fair bit of its force after the last few days.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,376
    Dominic Cummings is eager for Rishi Sunak to become prime minister so that his gang of Vote Leave campaigners have a “new host” for their ambitions.....

    ...Johnson’s aides are concerned that Cummings has stockpiled further damaging material to engineer the prime minister’s political demise.

    Incendiary claims about Johnson’s reaction to the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox as polling day approached in the Brexit referendum in June 2016 are doing the rounds in Westminster.

    According to those who have heard the story, Johnson was upset at the effect Cox’s death would have on him politically. Aides travelling with him that day say this is untrue and he was “very sombre”.

    Senior Tories are also concerned that Johnson’s private thoughts about his cabinet and fellow MPs could be revealed.

    A prominent Eurosceptic said: “That would undermine support in Westminster, and it’s MPs, not voters, who can get rid of him.” Under Conservative Party rules, about 55 Tory MPs would need to submit a letter to the chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee to force a vote of no confidence.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vengeful-dominic-cummings-wants-rishi-sunak-in-no-10-7kzbfcg7w
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,887
    Sandpit said:

    It’s sad that so many of the Commentariat seem to be gleefully talking up the dissolution of the country, purely as a means to get back at Johnson and Brexit.

    It's really sad that the breakup of the United Kingdom is an inevitable consequence of Brexit

    Little Englanders for the win...
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,340

    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to any others taste.

    Not sure about Carrie's standards for anything, on the evidence given so far.

    And, fixed the last line for you!

    And, good morning one and all.
    It is very rare that one persons taste is the same as another. A new neighbour recently ripped out a beautiful new kitchen @ circa 15k that had recently been installed about a year previously because she didn't like it, and spent probably 25k on a new one. Utter madness imho but there you go.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,887
    Interesting story from the Sunday Telegraph that Downing Street will consider increasing spending in Scotland - but only if people vote for pro-independence parties. Odd time to admit that! 😅
    https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/1388605708887805954
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.

    Whenever he leaves he can go back to earning the big money.
    But he will find it pretty difficult if not impossible to become PM again.
    That is true. Retiring from Number 10 is a one-shot deal.

    On the other hand, does Boris want to get bogged down in the minutiae of post-Brexit trade, Scottish independence and Northern Ireland border issues? Boris has done, or at least announced, the fun stuff already. And he had to be leant on to run for a second term as Mayor.

    Boris is not old. He will turn 57 in June. But that is already older than David Cameron and Tony Blair when they retired.

    I do not expect Boris to contest the 2024 election. I should not be surprised if he steps down this year.
    Starmer is slightly older than Johnson. Both are likely to to be the last Boomer party leaders.
    That reminds me of an old observation by Ken Livingstone, talking about MPs' salaries. For most Conservatives, it's a pay cut. For most Labour MPs, it's the most they've earned in their lives.
    That was probably true when he said it. I don’t think that’s necessarily true now. Starmer, for example, must have been on better money as DPP than he was as an ordinary MP. Nick Thomas-Symonds probably earned about the same as a senior Fellow of St Edmund Hall as he does now.
    Personally I’d make an MP salary higher, but with much tighter restrictions on outside earnings. Maybe £90k or so, which would also raise ministerial salaries.

    There’s a separate issue of pay being too high in many other public sector roles, which also needs to be addressed. Six-figure salaries need to come with a risk attached, or be paid relative to performance.
    That’s a good point. For example, the last chief executive of Carmarthenshire County Council, Mark James, was on £175,000 a year, plus expenses (which were substantial as he was in and out of court all the time on corruption allegations).

    For what is a pretty minor role, I cannot understand why he was worth that much. Even if he hadn’t been completely useless and a crook.

    The new one is paid less, but it’s still £145,000 to start. Not far off what the PM earns for a far easier job.

    Maybe the salary of a headteacher - which is a much more demanding role - would be applicable.

    But even at that, we should be paying the Prime Minister more. FFS, do we really *want* somebody comparable to a provincial council clerk in the role?
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192
    ydoethur said:

    If Richard Tice and the Brexit Party hadn’t stood in this seat in 2019 then this would have been a Tory gain at the 2019 general election

    Shouldn’t there be a fairly significant caveat to that:

    if the Brexit party voters had voted Tory

    I can’t help but wonder how many Brexit party voters were those who felt unable to vote Tory, bearing in mind that we all knew the Faragista ego trip would win no seats while the larger the Tory majority, the easier Brexit would be.

    Edit - we will of course get some indication of this in Hartlepool and Wales. If Brexit voters do head towards the Blues, Labour are toast in Hartlepool and face being wiped out outside the core Valleys; they will probably also lose Torfaen.

    But I can’t see it happening.

    Don't forget that the BXP strategy was explicitly to stop Tory gains with a view of keeping the Tories honest and on track for the hardest trade deal possible post-Brexit. So I'm not sure that we can read too much into the motivation of Lab > BXP switchers and what that means now.

    In practice these voters have got No Deal in name only. We have signed a deal with the EU which doesn't work so badly that we have had to drop most of the requirements that let us run a border. So they should be angry about that - and might be had they not been told by their part of the media what an excellent Brexit we've had and how its all working perfectly.
  • Options
    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.

    Whenever he leaves he can go back to earning the big money.
    But he will find it pretty difficult if not impossible to become PM again.
    That is true. Retiring from Number 10 is a one-shot deal.

    On the other hand, does Boris want to get bogged down in the minutiae of post-Brexit trade, Scottish independence and Northern Ireland border issues? Boris has done, or at least announced, the fun stuff already. And he had to be leant on to run for a second term as Mayor.

    Boris is not old. He will turn 57 in June. But that is already older than David Cameron and Tony Blair when they retired.

    I do not expect Boris to contest the 2024 election. I should not be surprised if he steps down this year.
    Starmer is slightly older than Johnson. Both are likely to to be the last Boomer party leaders.
    That reminds me of an old observation by Ken Livingstone, talking about MPs' salaries. For most Conservatives, it's a pay cut. For most Labour MPs, it's the most they've earned in their lives.
    That was probably true when he said it. I don’t think that’s necessarily true now. Starmer, for example, must have been on better money as DPP than he was as an ordinary MP. Nick Thomas-Symonds probably earned about the same as a senior Fellow of St Edmund Hall as he does now.
    Personally I’d make an MP salary higher, but with much tighter restrictions on outside earnings. Maybe £90k or so, which would also raise ministerial salaries.

    There’s a separate issue of pay being too high in many other public sector roles, which also needs to be addressed. Six-figure salaries need to come with a risk attached, or be paid relative to performance.
    That’s a good point. For example, the last chief executive of Carmarthenshire County Council, Mark James, was on £175,000 a year, plus expenses (which were substantial as he was in and out of court all the time on corruption allegations).

    For what is a pretty minor role, I cannot understand why he was worth that much. Even if he hadn’t been completely useless and a crook.

    The new one is paid less, but it’s still £145,000 to start. Not far off what the PM earns for a far easier job.

    Maybe the salary of a headteacher - which is a much more demanding role - would be applicable.

    But even at that, we should be paying the Prime Minister more. FFS, do we really *want* somebody comparable to a provincial council clerk in the role?
    I think British PMs are more than bankable after they leave office - not sure how much G Brown has earned but all others are millionaires..... Johnson's problem is he seems to enjoy a little too much having his cake and eating it (as he bragged during the Brexit years)
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192

    ydoethur said:

    If Boris Johnson cannot afford to have children, he should stop siring them.

    Justin will shortly be along with a lecture on how the bastard should stop having more bastards...
    To be fair (though not to Justin), there is a genuine problem there.

    Remember the Free School Meal/Foodbox row? One of the arguments, voiced a lot by generic newish Conservative MPs for Redwall North, was that people shouldn't have children they can't afford. It was OK for Boris's spunk to burst out everywhere, because he was paying his way.

    That argument has lost a fair bit of its force after the last few days.
    Every now and then someone accuses me of being some kind of prude for attacking Shagger over his string of mistresses and discarded children. This isn't about sex - if he is an over-sexed lothario then he should be single and use rubbers.

    What I have a problem with is a man who cannot be trusted - and ask Carrie about Shagger's affair with the [superinjunction] to ask if he can be trusted. Perhaps that is why we have had the transformation in their relationship. It is only after he betrayed her with the thing that cannot be mentioned that she has driven all this - the £200k flat refurb, the end of Cummings and his forthcoming revenge, the growing financial scandals.

    If he discarded her and the child as he usually does. he wouldn't be in this much shit.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Dominic Cummings is eager for Rishi Sunak to become prime minister so that his gang of Vote Leave campaigners have a “new host” for their ambitions.....

    ...Johnson’s aides are concerned that Cummings has stockpiled further damaging material to engineer the prime minister’s political demise.

    Incendiary claims about Johnson’s reaction to the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox as polling day approached in the Brexit referendum in June 2016 are doing the rounds in Westminster.

    According to those who have heard the story, Johnson was upset at the effect Cox’s death would have on him politically. Aides travelling with him that day say this is untrue and he was “very sombre”.

    Senior Tories are also concerned that Johnson’s private thoughts about his cabinet and fellow MPs could be revealed.

    A prominent Eurosceptic said: “That would undermine support in Westminster, and it’s MPs, not voters, who can get rid of him.” Under Conservative Party rules, about 55 Tory MPs would need to submit a letter to the chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee to force a vote of no confidence.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vengeful-dominic-cummings-wants-rishi-sunak-in-no-10-7kzbfcg7w

    If Cummings can’t keep private things private, why would anyone trust him in future? Not a hugely intelligent career move.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.

    Whenever he leaves he can go back to earning the big money.
    But he will find it pretty difficult if not impossible to become PM again.
    That is true. Retiring from Number 10 is a one-shot deal.

    On the other hand, does Boris want to get bogged down in the minutiae of post-Brexit trade, Scottish independence and Northern Ireland border issues? Boris has done, or at least announced, the fun stuff already. And he had to be leant on to run for a second term as Mayor.

    Boris is not old. He will turn 57 in June. But that is already older than David Cameron and Tony Blair when they retired.

    I do not expect Boris to contest the 2024 election. I should not be surprised if he steps down this year.
    Starmer is slightly older than Johnson. Both are likely to to be the last Boomer party leaders.
    That reminds me of an old observation by Ken Livingstone, talking about MPs' salaries. For most Conservatives, it's a pay cut. For most Labour MPs, it's the most they've earned in their lives.
    That was probably true when he said it. I don’t think that’s necessarily true now. Starmer, for example, must have been on better money as DPP than he was as an ordinary MP. Nick Thomas-Symonds probably earned about the same as a senior Fellow of St Edmund Hall as he does now.
    Personally I’d make an MP salary higher, but with much tighter restrictions on outside earnings. Maybe £90k or so, which would also raise ministerial salaries.

    There’s a separate issue of pay being too high in many other public sector roles, which also needs to be addressed. Six-figure salaries need to come with a risk attached, or be paid relative to performance.
    That’s a good point. For example, the last chief executive of Carmarthenshire County Council, Mark James, was on £175,000 a year, plus expenses (which were substantial as he was in and out of court all the time on corruption allegations).

    For what is a pretty minor role, I cannot understand why he was worth that much. Even if he hadn’t been completely useless and a crook.

    The new one is paid less, but it’s still £145,000 to start. Not far off what the PM earns for a far easier job.

    Maybe the salary of a headteacher - which is a much more demanding role - would be applicable.

    But even at that, we should be paying the Prime Minister more. FFS, do we really *want* somebody comparable to a provincial council clerk in the role?
    Do we want someone primarily motivated by income in the role?🤔

    The PMs salary is 6 times Median income, with additional perks including free accommodation in Westminster, an annual decorating allowance beyond annual income (seemingly not taxed as a BIK) a stately home as a second home, plus MPs expenses. That seems pretty generous to me. The £150 000 is just pocket money.

    Additionally, there is no problem with Ms Symmonds getting a job if she wants to decorate the flat at one go, rather than do a few rooms at a time.

    That is not hard up, not by any stretch of the term, and it is right and proper that the PM has to watch his personal spending. After all the rest of us do.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341

    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to any others taste.

    Not sure about Carrie's standards for anything, on the evidence given so far.

    And, fixed the last line for you!

    And, good morning one and all.
    It is very rare that one persons taste is the same as another. A new neighbour recently ripped out a beautiful new kitchen @ circa 15k that had recently been installed about a year previously because she didn't like it, and spent probably 25k on a new one. Utter madness imho but there you go.
    I gather there is quite a trade in second-hand but more-or-less unused kitchens.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,887
    Foxy said:

    Do we want someone primarily motivated by income in the role?

    It couldn't be worse than whatever motivates BoZo
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592

    Some fascinating detail in this, including the bafflingly surreal one that, while Scottish voters think the SNP Scottish Government has done badly on education, they think it has done well on immigration and defence.

    Could someone please have a stern word with Scottish voters?


    https://twitter.com/dhothersall/status/1388747777031692290?s=20

    Maybe people give the SNP a plus on defence because they like the policies even if they don't have the powers? Which is worrying because it suggests what the SNP is good at requires independence.
    That could well be the case

    Have we all done our predictions on here for e Scottish elections yet? I still think SNP will fall short of a majority, but will be very tight.
    I think SLAB will be in second place in the popular vote, and possibly seats. Voting SLAB is the way to kick both Sturgeon and Johnson in the arse.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341
    edited May 2021
    Jonathan said:

    Dominic Cummings is eager for Rishi Sunak to become prime minister so that his gang of Vote Leave campaigners have a “new host” for their ambitions.....

    ...Johnson’s aides are concerned that Cummings has stockpiled further damaging material to engineer the prime minister’s political demise.

    Incendiary claims about Johnson’s reaction to the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox as polling day approached in the Brexit referendum in June 2016 are doing the rounds in Westminster.

    According to those who have heard the story, Johnson was upset at the effect Cox’s death would have on him politically. Aides travelling with him that day say this is untrue and he was “very sombre”.

    Senior Tories are also concerned that Johnson’s private thoughts about his cabinet and fellow MPs could be revealed.

    A prominent Eurosceptic said: “That would undermine support in Westminster, and it’s MPs, not voters, who can get rid of him.” Under Conservative Party rules, about 55 Tory MPs would need to submit a letter to the chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee to force a vote of no confidence.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vengeful-dominic-cummings-wants-rishi-sunak-in-no-10-7kzbfcg7w

    If Cummings can’t keep private things private, why would anyone trust him in future? Not a hugely intelligent career move.
    Does Cummings care about career moves? He spends years at a time sitting around reading books, which does not sound like an expensive lifestyle.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    Jonathan said:

    Dominic Cummings is eager for Rishi Sunak to become prime minister so that his gang of Vote Leave campaigners have a “new host” for their ambitions.....

    ...Johnson’s aides are concerned that Cummings has stockpiled further damaging material to engineer the prime minister’s political demise.

    Incendiary claims about Johnson’s reaction to the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox as polling day approached in the Brexit referendum in June 2016 are doing the rounds in Westminster.

    According to those who have heard the story, Johnson was upset at the effect Cox’s death would have on him politically. Aides travelling with him that day say this is untrue and he was “very sombre”.

    Senior Tories are also concerned that Johnson’s private thoughts about his cabinet and fellow MPs could be revealed.

    A prominent Eurosceptic said: “That would undermine support in Westminster, and it’s MPs, not voters, who can get rid of him.” Under Conservative Party rules, about 55 Tory MPs would need to submit a letter to the chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee to force a vote of no confidence.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vengeful-dominic-cummings-wants-rishi-sunak-in-no-10-7kzbfcg7w

    If Cummings can’t keep private things private, why would anyone trust him in future? Not a hugely intelligent career move.
    Cummings has said very little except for his statement. This is ‘friends of the PM’ worried that Cummings has a pile of dirt from his time in No.10.

    Presumably the same friends of the PM who falsely accused Cummings of leaking stuff a couple of weeks ago, and dragged the former advisor’s name into the mud in the first place?
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192
    Jonathan said:

    Dominic Cummings is eager for Rishi Sunak to become prime minister so that his gang of Vote Leave campaigners have a “new host” for their ambitions.....

    ...Johnson’s aides are concerned that Cummings has stockpiled further damaging material to engineer the prime minister’s political demise.

    Incendiary claims about Johnson’s reaction to the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox as polling day approached in the Brexit referendum in June 2016 are doing the rounds in Westminster.

    According to those who have heard the story, Johnson was upset at the effect Cox’s death would have on him politically. Aides travelling with him that day say this is untrue and he was “very sombre”.

    Senior Tories are also concerned that Johnson’s private thoughts about his cabinet and fellow MPs could be revealed.

    A prominent Eurosceptic said: “That would undermine support in Westminster, and it’s MPs, not voters, who can get rid of him.” Under Conservative Party rules, about 55 Tory MPs would need to submit a letter to the chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee to force a vote of no confidence.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vengeful-dominic-cummings-wants-rishi-sunak-in-no-10-7kzbfcg7w

    If Cummings can’t keep private things private, why would anyone trust him in future? Not a hugely intelligent career move.
    He will claim that he is a whistleblower - and has the evidence to back it all up.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592

    Jonathan said:

    Dominic Cummings is eager for Rishi Sunak to become prime minister so that his gang of Vote Leave campaigners have a “new host” for their ambitions.....

    ...Johnson’s aides are concerned that Cummings has stockpiled further damaging material to engineer the prime minister’s political demise.

    Incendiary claims about Johnson’s reaction to the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox as polling day approached in the Brexit referendum in June 2016 are doing the rounds in Westminster.

    According to those who have heard the story, Johnson was upset at the effect Cox’s death would have on him politically. Aides travelling with him that day say this is untrue and he was “very sombre”.

    Senior Tories are also concerned that Johnson’s private thoughts about his cabinet and fellow MPs could be revealed.

    A prominent Eurosceptic said: “That would undermine support in Westminster, and it’s MPs, not voters, who can get rid of him.” Under Conservative Party rules, about 55 Tory MPs would need to submit a letter to the chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee to force a vote of no confidence.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vengeful-dominic-cummings-wants-rishi-sunak-in-no-10-7kzbfcg7w

    If Cummings can’t keep private things private, why would anyone trust him in future? Not a hugely intelligent career move.
    Does Cummings care about career moves? He spends years sitting around reading books, which does not sound like an expensive lifestyle.
    I dunno.

    He might fancy making Colonel, like Philby did.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341

    If Boris Johnson cannot afford to have children, he should stop siring them.

    How old are Boris's children? He will get an effective payrise whenever one of them leaves their expensive public school (unless Marina signs the cheques).
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,868

    Some fascinating detail in this, including the bafflingly surreal one that, while Scottish voters think the SNP Scottish Government has done badly on education, they think it has done well on immigration and defence.

    Could someone please have a stern word with Scottish voters?


    https://twitter.com/dhothersall/status/1388747777031692290?s=20

    Indy Scotland is going to be a place where the Scots are asked to believe six impossible things before breakfast.
    You unionists really are full of green cheese, hate your colony having aspirations.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192
    Foxy said:

    Some fascinating detail in this, including the bafflingly surreal one that, while Scottish voters think the SNP Scottish Government has done badly on education, they think it has done well on immigration and defence.

    Could someone please have a stern word with Scottish voters?


    https://twitter.com/dhothersall/status/1388747777031692290?s=20

    Maybe people give the SNP a plus on defence because they like the policies even if they don't have the powers? Which is worrying because it suggests what the SNP is good at requires independence.
    That could well be the case

    Have we all done our predictions on here for e Scottish elections yet? I still think SNP will fall short of a majority, but will be very tight.
    I think SLAB will be in second place in the popular vote, and possibly seats. Voting SLAB is the way to kick both Sturgeon and Johnson in the arse.
    ScotCons are on for losing seats. Last night the Lord of Epping Forest insisted they help no seats in NE fishing towns - because their 4 MSPs here are only list members. With polls showing them losing somewhere round that number of seats, I think HYUFD's prediction is likely accurate - Tories are going to be punished up here for lying to the community.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.

    Whenever he leaves he can go back to earning the big money.
    But he will find it pretty difficult if not impossible to become PM again.
    That is true. Retiring from Number 10 is a one-shot deal.

    On the other hand, does Boris want to get bogged down in the minutiae of post-Brexit trade, Scottish independence and Northern Ireland border issues? Boris has done, or at least announced, the fun stuff already. And he had to be leant on to run for a second term as Mayor.

    Boris is not old. He will turn 57 in June. But that is already older than David Cameron and Tony Blair when they retired.

    I do not expect Boris to contest the 2024 election. I should not be surprised if he steps down this year.
    Starmer is slightly older than Johnson. Both are likely to to be the last Boomer party leaders.
    That reminds me of an old observation by Ken Livingstone, talking about MPs' salaries. For most Conservatives, it's a pay cut. For most Labour MPs, it's the most they've earned in their lives.
    That was probably true when he said it. I don’t think that’s necessarily true now. Starmer, for example, must have been on better money as DPP than he was as an ordinary MP. Nick Thomas-Symonds probably earned about the same as a senior Fellow of St Edmund Hall as he does now.
    Personally I’d make an MP salary higher, but with much tighter restrictions on outside earnings. Maybe £90k or so, which would also raise ministerial salaries.

    There’s a separate issue of pay being too high in many other public sector roles, which also needs to be addressed. Six-figure salaries need to come with a risk attached, or be paid relative to performance.
    That’s a good point. For example, the last chief executive of Carmarthenshire County Council, Mark James, was on £175,000 a year, plus expenses (which were substantial as he was in and out of court all the time on corruption allegations).

    For what is a pretty minor role, I cannot understand why he was worth that much. Even if he hadn’t been completely useless and a crook.

    The new one is paid less, but it’s still £145,000 to start. Not far off what the PM earns for a far easier job.

    Maybe the salary of a headteacher - which is a much more demanding role - would be applicable.

    But even at that, we should be paying the Prime Minister more. FFS, do we really *want* somebody comparable to a provincial council clerk in the role?
    Do we want someone primarily motivated by income in the role?🤔
    No.

    But here’s another question.

    Do we want people of ability and experience in high profile roles outside government to decide the drop in their income means they can’t afford to be an MP or minister?
  • Options
    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    Foxy said:

    Some fascinating detail in this, including the bafflingly surreal one that, while Scottish voters think the SNP Scottish Government has done badly on education, they think it has done well on immigration and defence.

    Could someone please have a stern word with Scottish voters?


    https://twitter.com/dhothersall/status/1388747777031692290?s=20

    Maybe people give the SNP a plus on defence because they like the policies even if they don't have the powers? Which is worrying because it suggests what the SNP is good at requires independence.
    That could well be the case

    Have we all done our predictions on here for e Scottish elections yet? I still think SNP will fall short of a majority, but will be very tight.
    I think SLAB will be in second place in the popular vote, and possibly seats. Voting SLAB is the way to kick both Sturgeon and Johnson in the arse.
    I agree re Scottish Labour they have a good leader it seems, I've not followed the story but would be interested to see how he Scottish Tory vote performs...from my aging scottish relatives, spaffing 58k on kitchens plus other Toryisms (esp BJ) wont have gone down well at all, is there any indications of the SCon vote sliding..?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    edited May 2021

    Jonathan said:

    Dominic Cummings is eager for Rishi Sunak to become prime minister so that his gang of Vote Leave campaigners have a “new host” for their ambitions.....

    ...Johnson’s aides are concerned that Cummings has stockpiled further damaging material to engineer the prime minister’s political demise.

    Incendiary claims about Johnson’s reaction to the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox as polling day approached in the Brexit referendum in June 2016 are doing the rounds in Westminster.

    According to those who have heard the story, Johnson was upset at the effect Cox’s death would have on him politically. Aides travelling with him that day say this is untrue and he was “very sombre”.

    Senior Tories are also concerned that Johnson’s private thoughts about his cabinet and fellow MPs could be revealed.

    A prominent Eurosceptic said: “That would undermine support in Westminster, and it’s MPs, not voters, who can get rid of him.” Under Conservative Party rules, about 55 Tory MPs would need to submit a letter to the chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee to force a vote of no confidence.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vengeful-dominic-cummings-wants-rishi-sunak-in-no-10-7kzbfcg7w

    If Cummings can’t keep private things private, why would anyone trust him in future? Not a hugely intelligent career move.
    He will claim that he is a whistleblower - and has the evidence to back it all up.
    Because whistleblowers are also highly popular among prospective employers...

    Edit. - not that I am especially exercised about Cummings’ fate or think he is a whistleblower.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Cost of redecoration of flat ~ 100k, paid for -- after a bit of fuss -- apparently by the PM. Cost to taxpayers -- zero. Total amount of postings on blogs and words in newspapers ~ billions.

    Cost of mahossive Greensill Capital / Gupta corruption to taxpayers ~ up to 5 billion (source: Guardian). Total amount of postings on blogs and words in newspapers ~ at most a few hundred.

    It is Filthy, Greedy Cameron who should be under the spotlight.

    It is proof that most people are not actually interested in tackling serious fraud or corruption. They are only interested in using corruption as a party political stick.

    Now that Cameron is no longer a front line politician -- and despite his behaviour being massively more expensive for the taxpayer -- no-one is very interested.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,314
    I think Jim Callaghan, John Major and Gordon Brown were all comfortable after losing office.

    Ted Heath, Margaret Thatcher and, to a lesser extent, Theresa May were not. Cameron seems slightly at a loose end to me. Blair is an unusual one in that he's not in office but still acts as if he is.

    I think there's a difference between losing to the electorate (which politicians can and do accept) and being kicked out by your own party.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,261
    The Sunday Rawnsley: Why sleaze investigations are becoming more menacing for Boris Johnson

    He dismisses all the questions about his behaviour as a “whole farrago of nonsense”. This is what poker players would call a tell. Those familiar with his pathology will know that he often dials up the bluster when he has something to hide. The worse the misconduct he is trying to conceal, the rantier he tends to get.

    He could clear it up today and save everyone a lot of time by showing when he paid the bill. There must be a reason he won’t do this and the reason must be an extremely compelling one given that he’d apparently prefer to endure days of rotten headlines in the run-up to this Thursday’s big set of elections rather than give us full disclosure.

    There is a shoulder-shrugging view that none of this much matters. The cynical dismissiveness of many Tories is itself a symptom of the problem we have with integrity in public life.

    This is a ridiculous nest of conflicts of interest. It becomes an absolutely ludicrous one when the prime minister himself is the subject of investigation. Even if Lord Geidt or Mr Case conclude that their boss has broken the rules and even if they are willing to say so, there is nothing but shame to prevent him from tossing aside their verdicts and declaring himself not guilty. And we know shame is a sensation that this prime minister is impervious to.

    This is why it is so essential that properly independent investigators are on the case. That’s a court in which Boris Johnson can’t be his own judge and jury.



  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    If Boris Johnson cannot afford to have children, he should stop siring them.

    How old are Boris's children? He will get an effective payrise whenever one of them leaves their expensive public school (unless Marina signs the cheques).
    Not sure I agree. Most of my colleagues find it’s more expensive to put them through uni (albeit most of them weren’t paying school fees).
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,868
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.

    Whenever he leaves he can go back to earning the big money.
    But he will find it pretty difficult if not impossible to become PM again.
    That is true. Retiring from Number 10 is a one-shot deal.

    On the other hand, does Boris want to get bogged down in the minutiae of post-Brexit trade, Scottish independence and Northern Ireland border issues? Boris has done, or at least announced, the fun stuff already. And he had to be leant on to run for a second term as Mayor.

    Boris is not old. He will turn 57 in June. But that is already older than David Cameron and Tony Blair when they retired.

    I do not expect Boris to contest the 2024 election. I should not be surprised if he steps down this year.
    Starmer is slightly older than Johnson. Both are likely to to be the last Boomer party leaders.
    That reminds me of an old observation by Ken Livingstone, talking about MPs' salaries. For most Conservatives, it's a pay cut. For most Labour MPs, it's the most they've earned in their lives.
    That was probably true when he said it. I don’t think that’s necessarily true now. Starmer, for example, must have been on better money as DPP than he was as an ordinary MP. Nick Thomas-Symonds probably earned about the same as a senior Fellow of St Edmund Hall as he does now.
    Personally I’d make an MP salary higher, but with much tighter restrictions on outside earnings. Maybe £90k or so, which would also raise ministerial salaries.

    There’s a separate issue of pay being too high in many other public sector roles, which also needs to be addressed. Six-figure salaries need to come with a risk attached, or be paid relative to performance.
    That’s a good point. For example, the last chief executive of Carmarthenshire County Council, Mark James, was on £175,000 a year, plus expenses (which were substantial as he was in and out of court all the time on corruption allegations).

    For what is a pretty minor role, I cannot understand why he was worth that much. Even if he hadn’t been completely useless and a crook.

    The new one is paid less, but it’s still £145,000 to start. Not far off what the PM earns for a far easier job.

    Maybe the salary of a headteacher - which is a much more demanding role - would be applicable.

    But even at that, we should be paying the Prime Minister more. FFS, do we really *want* somebody comparable to a provincial council clerk in the role?
    He is already being paid multiple times what he is worth, a petty crook who should be tarred and feathered and run out of town. He gets everything free and poor soul has to survive on 150K pocket money , poor diddums.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,314
    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Simon Jenkins: By the end of next week, the bizarre “union of four nations”, much cited during Covid, could be seriously at risk. As throughout history, England is hopeless at managing such risks. Boris Johnson seized power by championing British nationalism, yet he has only contempt for the nationalism of others. Last November Johnson called granting more power to Scotland “a disaster”, declaring devolution to be “Tony Blair’s biggest mistake”. That may soon be another quote he will deny ever having said.

    It’s sad that so many of the Commentariat seem to be gleefully talking up the dissolution of the country, purely as a means to get back at Johnson and Brexit.
    Aesop's Sour Grapes. A section of the commentariat regard the break up of the UK and economic collapse as a fitting punishment for being outvoted by people they hate.
    It's all they've got, otherwise they'd have to accept they were wrong and admit their vote was purely a values one.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.

    Whenever he leaves he can go back to earning the big money.
    But he will find it pretty difficult if not impossible to become PM again.
    That is true. Retiring from Number 10 is a one-shot deal.

    On the other hand, does Boris want to get bogged down in the minutiae of post-Brexit trade, Scottish independence and Northern Ireland border issues? Boris has done, or at least announced, the fun stuff already. And he had to be leant on to run for a second term as Mayor.

    Boris is not old. He will turn 57 in June. But that is already older than David Cameron and Tony Blair when they retired.

    I do not expect Boris to contest the 2024 election. I should not be surprised if he steps down this year.
    Starmer is slightly older than Johnson. Both are likely to to be the last Boomer party leaders.
    That reminds me of an old observation by Ken Livingstone, talking about MPs' salaries. For most Conservatives, it's a pay cut. For most Labour MPs, it's the most they've earned in their lives.
    That was probably true when he said it. I don’t think that’s necessarily true now. Starmer, for example, must have been on better money as DPP than he was as an ordinary MP. Nick Thomas-Symonds probably earned about the same as a senior Fellow of St Edmund Hall as he does now.
    Personally I’d make an MP salary higher, but with much tighter restrictions on outside earnings. Maybe £90k or so, which would also raise ministerial salaries.

    There’s a separate issue of pay being too high in many other public sector roles, which also needs to be addressed. Six-figure salaries need to come with a risk attached, or be paid relative to performance.
    That’s a good point. For example, the last chief executive of Carmarthenshire County Council, Mark James, was on £175,000 a year, plus expenses (which were substantial as he was in and out of court all the time on corruption allegations).

    For what is a pretty minor role, I cannot understand why he was worth that much. Even if he hadn’t been completely useless and a crook.

    The new one is paid less, but it’s still £145,000 to start. Not far off what the PM earns for a far easier job.

    Maybe the salary of a headteacher - which is a much more demanding role - would be applicable.

    But even at that, we should be paying the Prime Minister more. FFS, do we really *want* somebody comparable to a provincial council clerk in the role?
    Do we want someone primarily motivated by income in the role?🤔
    No.

    But here’s another question.

    Do we want people of ability and experience in high profile roles outside government to decide the drop in their income means they can’t afford to be an MP or minister?
    Yes, I am quite happy that we do. We have enough posh lawyers and millionaire businesspeople in Parliament. What we need is more social class and regional diversity. There are probably fewer working class people now in Parliament than at any other time in the last century.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,887
    Cost of flat refurb?
    -Let’s find a donor

    Cost of childcare?
    -Let’s find a donor

    Cost of personal trainer?
    -Let’s find a donor

    How Boris Johnson operates

    - @thesundaytimes

    - https://twitter.com/paul__johnson/status/1388765839525097480
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.

    Whenever he leaves he can go back to earning the big money.
    But he will find it pretty difficult if not impossible to become PM again.
    That is true. Retiring from Number 10 is a one-shot deal.

    On the other hand, does Boris want to get bogged down in the minutiae of post-Brexit trade, Scottish independence and Northern Ireland border issues? Boris has done, or at least announced, the fun stuff already. And he had to be leant on to run for a second term as Mayor.

    Boris is not old. He will turn 57 in June. But that is already older than David Cameron and Tony Blair when they retired.

    I do not expect Boris to contest the 2024 election. I should not be surprised if he steps down this year.
    Starmer is slightly older than Johnson. Both are likely to to be the last Boomer party leaders.
    That reminds me of an old observation by Ken Livingstone, talking about MPs' salaries. For most Conservatives, it's a pay cut. For most Labour MPs, it's the most they've earned in their lives.
    That was probably true when he said it. I don’t think that’s necessarily true now. Starmer, for example, must have been on better money as DPP than he was as an ordinary MP. Nick Thomas-Symonds probably earned about the same as a senior Fellow of St Edmund Hall as he does now.
    Personally I’d make an MP salary higher, but with much tighter restrictions on outside earnings. Maybe £90k or so, which would also raise ministerial salaries.

    There’s a separate issue of pay being too high in many other public sector roles, which also needs to be addressed. Six-figure salaries need to come with a risk attached, or be paid relative to performance.
    That’s a good point. For example, the last chief executive of Carmarthenshire County Council, Mark James, was on £175,000 a year, plus expenses (which were substantial as he was in and out of court all the time on corruption allegations).

    For what is a pretty minor role, I cannot understand why he was worth that much. Even if he hadn’t been completely useless and a crook.

    The new one is paid less, but it’s still £145,000 to start. Not far off what the PM earns for a far easier job.

    Maybe the salary of a headteacher - which is a much more demanding role - would be applicable.

    But even at that, we should be paying the Prime Minister more. FFS, do we really *want* somebody comparable to a provincial council clerk in the role?
    He is already being paid multiple times what he is worth, a petty crook who should be tarred and feathered and run out of town. He gets everything free and poor soul has to survive on 150K pocket money , poor diddums.
    Interestingly, Sturgeon gets about the same - £151,000.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,417
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Dominic Cummings is eager for Rishi Sunak to become prime minister so that his gang of Vote Leave campaigners have a “new host” for their ambitions.....

    ...Johnson’s aides are concerned that Cummings has stockpiled further damaging material to engineer the prime minister’s political demise.

    Incendiary claims about Johnson’s reaction to the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox as polling day approached in the Brexit referendum in June 2016 are doing the rounds in Westminster.

    According to those who have heard the story, Johnson was upset at the effect Cox’s death would have on him politically. Aides travelling with him that day say this is untrue and he was “very sombre”.

    Senior Tories are also concerned that Johnson’s private thoughts about his cabinet and fellow MPs could be revealed.

    A prominent Eurosceptic said: “That would undermine support in Westminster, and it’s MPs, not voters, who can get rid of him.” Under Conservative Party rules, about 55 Tory MPs would need to submit a letter to the chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee to force a vote of no confidence.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vengeful-dominic-cummings-wants-rishi-sunak-in-no-10-7kzbfcg7w

    If Cummings can’t keep private things private, why would anyone trust him in future? Not a hugely intelligent career move.
    He will claim that he is a whistleblower - and has the evidence to back it all up.
    Because whistleblowers are also highly popular among prospective employers...

    Edit. - not that I am especially exercised about Cummings’ fate or think he is a whistleblower.
    Doesn't he regard himself as an aristocratic gentleman-scholar?

    Has he ever actually had a proper job?
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    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192
    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley: Why sleaze investigations are becoming more menacing for Boris Johnson

    He dismisses all the questions about his behaviour as a “whole farrago of nonsense”. This is what poker players would call a tell. Those familiar with his pathology will know that he often dials up the bluster when he has something to hide. The worse the misconduct he is trying to conceal, the rantier he tends to get.

    He could clear it up today and save everyone a lot of time by showing when he paid the bill. There must be a reason he won’t do this and the reason must be an extremely compelling one given that he’d apparently prefer to endure days of rotten headlines in the run-up to this Thursday’s big set of elections rather than give us full disclosure.

    There is a shoulder-shrugging view that none of this much matters. The cynical dismissiveness of many Tories is itself a symptom of the problem we have with integrity in public life.

    This is a ridiculous nest of conflicts of interest. It becomes an absolutely ludicrous one when the prime minister himself is the subject of investigation. Even if Lord Geidt or Mr Case conclude that their boss has broken the rules and even if they are willing to say so, there is nothing but shame to prevent him from tossing aside their verdicts and declaring himself not guilty. And we know shame is a sensation that this prime minister is impervious to.

    This is why it is so essential that properly independent investigators are on the case. That’s a court in which Boris Johnson can’t be his own judge and jury.



    What is wrong with Johnson being his own judge and jury ask fanbois like pub man and Bluest Blue? He should have the same rights as the man in the street and that includes the "law doesn't apply to me because it is stupid and do you know who I am" defence.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,376


    Cost of redecoration of flat ~ 100k, paid for -- after a bit of fuss -- apparently by the PM. Cost to taxpayers -- zero. Total amount of postings on blogs and words in newspapers ~ billions.

    Cost of mahossive Greensill Capital / Gupta corruption to taxpayers ~ up to 5 billion (source: Guardian). Total amount of postings on blogs and words in newspapers ~ at most a few hundred.

    It is Filthy, Greedy Cameron who should be under the spotlight.

    It is proof that most people are not actually interested in tackling serious fraud or corruption. They are only interested in using corruption as a party political stick.

    Now that Cameron is no longer a front line politician -- and despite his behaviour being massively more expensive for the taxpayer -- no-one is very interested.

    The taxpayer have so far paid £30k for the flat, and are likely to pay £150k during this parliament for the redecoration of the flat.

    There's another cost to the taxpayer which I flagged up earlier on this week and the Sunday Times have picked up on now.

    Boris Johnson was given a loan by the Tory Party, it needed declaring on tax returns as a benefit in kind and there's tax implications, it appears Boris Johnson didn't declare it on his tax return in January, so....
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,868
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AlistairM said:

    From reading the last thread it is clear that Boris can't afford to stay PM. He was just about financially viable before being PM when he could have other sources of income such as his Telegraph column. Without that the can't afford his lifestyle, particularly with Carrie's very high standards for interior decor.

    I think there is a reasonable likelihood that Boris will step down after the country opens up again. Claim to be the PM who led the vaccine programme and start on the newly re-opened speech circuit making millions.

    If he did so then the money spent on the Downing Street flat will turn out to be a collosal waste of money as I doubt it is to many others taste.

    Whenever he leaves he can go back to earning the big money.
    But he will find it pretty difficult if not impossible to become PM again.
    That is true. Retiring from Number 10 is a one-shot deal.

    On the other hand, does Boris want to get bogged down in the minutiae of post-Brexit trade, Scottish independence and Northern Ireland border issues? Boris has done, or at least announced, the fun stuff already. And he had to be leant on to run for a second term as Mayor.

    Boris is not old. He will turn 57 in June. But that is already older than David Cameron and Tony Blair when they retired.

    I do not expect Boris to contest the 2024 election. I should not be surprised if he steps down this year.
    Starmer is slightly older than Johnson. Both are likely to to be the last Boomer party leaders.
    That reminds me of an old observation by Ken Livingstone, talking about MPs' salaries. For most Conservatives, it's a pay cut. For most Labour MPs, it's the most they've earned in their lives.
    That was probably true when he said it. I don’t think that’s necessarily true now. Starmer, for example, must have been on better money as DPP than he was as an ordinary MP. Nick Thomas-Symonds probably earned about the same as a senior Fellow of St Edmund Hall as he does now.
    Personally I’d make an MP salary higher, but with much tighter restrictions on outside earnings. Maybe £90k or so, which would also raise ministerial salaries.

    There’s a separate issue of pay being too high in many other public sector roles, which also needs to be addressed. Six-figure salaries need to come with a risk attached, or be paid relative to performance.
    You would let them keep the free houses , free food and almost anything they need claimed as expenses down to paper clips and a pint of milk, wives and family being employed on big salaries, gold plated pensions, etc. They are very well looked after indeed.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:



    Additionally, there is no problem with Ms Symmonds getting a job if she wants to decorate the flat at one go, rather than do a few rooms at a time.

    She has one as Head of Something Or Other at an animal charity. Presumably her nightly exposure to Johnson on the vinegars was good preparation for working with gorillas.
    Really Mr Ace, you are a bit of a monkey sometimes :smile:
This discussion has been closed.