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Is Mark Drakeford the new Winston Churchill? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,167
edited April 2021 in General
imageIs Mark Drakeford the new Winston Churchill? – politicalbetting.com

Ladbrokes have a fascinating market on the Senedd seat of Cardiff West, looking at the odds above it seems a very easy Labour hold, you’d expect Mark Drakeford, the incumbent First Minister, to hold this seat thanks the excellent rollout of the vaccine he has overseen in Wales which has been seen in the polling.

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Comments

  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    First
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    I guess the reason Drakeford is so short is that he is expected to outperform his party as leader. His predecessor outperformed his party in 2011 when he first contested his seat as leader:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgend_(Senedd_Cymru_constituency)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,919
    tlg86 said:

    I guess the reason Drakeford is so short is that he is expected to outperform his party as leader. His predecessor outperformed his party in 2011 when he first contested his seat as leader:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgend_(Senedd_Cymru_constituency)

    That and there being a perceived ceiling on the Plaid vote owing to their fascination with the Welsh language.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited April 2021
    This is a brilliant betting post. Thank you to Mr (Mr?) TSE.

    I've just taken this up: betting on both the Cons and PC in Cardiff West. Got boosts on both stakes with Ladbrokes.

    I've also just had a small bet with Ladbrokes on the tories to win most seats in the Welsh assembly at 8/1. I think that's value too.
  • tlg86 said:

    I guess the reason Drakeford is so short is that he is expected to outperform his party as leader. His predecessor outperformed his party in 2011 when he first contested his seat as leader:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgend_(Senedd_Cymru_constituency)

    I'm always really twitchy about this idea of individuals outperforming parties. Most of my betting mistakes have come from thinking this works whereas invariably what happens on a national scale sweeps away whatever charisma or standing or incumbency may be in place.

    Looks to me like the tories are on a bit of a roll in Wales. Nationally too. The vaccine success is being linked not to Drakeford but to the UK's policy decisions which, this year, have been pretty good. Combine that with Spring time post-lockdown euphoria and I think the tories will do well next month, or, rather, do well for a mid-term Gov't anyway.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited April 2021
    Also on that Labour chat y'day I guess what I'm wondering is if Labour's pathway is to go anti-union pro-English but keep everything else that's left of centre. There's a good tradition of this. Although Corbyn came over as appearing to hate Britain, some of the other anti-Europeans had a kind of anti-federalist, pro-English worker, ethic about them. I'm thinking people like Eric Heffer. Len McCluskey is another.

    It's that which I think Labour need to tap into. Someone mentioned that they need their Remain supporters but I'm not sure that's true. What Labour need back are the Red Wall voters. So they need to go Blue Labour. English workers in the north and east.

    The Remainers will either stick with Labour or, in despair, vote LibDem or Green. Both of which are fine for Labour. It doesn't matter if they put yellow or green MPs into Parliament as long as Labour regain their old core. A coalition of Lab-LibDem-SNP-Green is probably Labour's best hope for route to power.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    The possible value seat in that area is Torfaen. Formerly a mining constituency, now gentrifying, substantial Brexit party vote as well.

    I also expect Vale of Glamorgan to go Tory and Bridgend to be at least competitive.

    The ones I can’t make my mind up over are the seats in Newport.

    But I will be amazed if Drakeford loses Cardiff West, and given he’s not put himself on the list it’s clear he doesn’t expect to. If Labour lose Cardiff West my tip for Tories - most seats is a certain winner.
  • Sadly Ladbrokes only have Cardiff West up ydoethur. Maybe other sites have other constituencies?

    Whilst on there I noticed the tories are 4/7 favourites to win Hartlepool. Wow. When did they become favourites there?

    Also spotted on the French Presidentials that Marine Le Pen is 3/1. I'm not really tempted but thought I'd mention it. Reasonable value.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Sadly Ladbrokes only have Cardiff West up ydoethur. Maybe other sites have other constituencies?

    Whilst on there I noticed the tories are 4/7 favourites to win Hartlepool. Wow. When did they become favourites there?

    Also spotted on the French Presidentials that Marine Le Pen is 3/1. I'm not really tempted but thought I'd mention it. Reasonable value.

    You can ask for markets to be put up, if you want.

    Tories were betting favourites in Hartlepool the moment the by-election was moved.

    Le Pen isn’t value in the French election because although she’s likely to make the final two, around 60% of the electorate will back her opponent - whoever that is - to keep her out.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,800
    edited April 2021
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: tip(s) may be delayed as there's a big spider in this room, just out of reach for me to crush. Damned thing.

    Edited extra bit: it has now vanished.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,749

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: tip(s) may be delayed as there's a big spider in this room, just out of reach for me to crush. Damned thing.

    Edited extra bit: it has now vanished.

    He’s popped down laddies
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,800
    Mr. Moonshine, he's welcome to sod off. *sighs*

    Anyway, making some progress. Weird that there's no safety car market on Ladbrokes. Think it must be an oversight.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,595



    Whilst on there I noticed the tories are 4/7 favourites to win Hartlepool. Wow. When did they become favourites there?

    Asked a Tory MP the other day if he thought they would win Hartlepool.

    "Probably."
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421



    Whilst on there I noticed the tories are 4/7 favourites to win Hartlepool. Wow. When did they become favourites there?

    Asked a Tory MP the other day if he thought they would win Hartlepool.

    "Probably."
    Did s/he say why?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,448
    edited April 2021

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: tip(s) may be delayed as there's a big spider in this room, just out of reach for me to crush. Damned thing.

    Edited extra bit: it has now vanished.

    Possibly appropriate warning, given gambling:

    'If you want to live and thrive
    Let a spider run alive'


    And Hello Everybody. Sunny, and JUST above freezing, this morning.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,800
    King Cole, one of the best short stories I ever wrote was me versus a spider.

    https://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/552983/
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,595
    ydoethur said:



    Whilst on there I noticed the tories are 4/7 favourites to win Hartlepool. Wow. When did they become favourites there?

    Asked a Tory MP the other day if he thought they would win Hartlepool.

    "Probably."
    Did s/he say why?
    Terrible choice of candidate by Labour.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,448

    King Cole, one of the best short stories I ever wrote was me versus a spider.

    https://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/552983/

    It's said that the way to keep spiders away is to scatter conkers about. We've had very few since putting a couple outside our front door. Need replacing in autumn, of course.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,202
    ydoethur said:

    Sadly Ladbrokes only have Cardiff West up ydoethur. Maybe other sites have other constituencies?

    Whilst on there I noticed the tories are 4/7 favourites to win Hartlepool. Wow. When did they become favourites there?

    Also spotted on the French Presidentials that Marine Le Pen is 3/1. I'm not really tempted but thought I'd mention it. Reasonable value.

    You can ask for markets to be put up, if you want.

    Tories were betting favourites in Hartlepool the moment the by-election was moved.

    Le Pen isn’t value in the French election because although she’s likely to make the final two, around 60% of the electorate will back her opponent - whoever that is - to keep her out.
    Re Le Pen, I think it's a mistake to to think of her like Farage.

    Her father was like Farage. She's more like... well, I don't really know.

    Perhaps a rather more pro-EU version of Johnson.

    He father wanted France to leave the EU / EEC.

    She wanted France to leave the Euro. And she campaigned on this in 2016. (Or, technically, for a referendum on leaving the Euro.)

    Now Le Pen wants the EU to be a Christian balwark to bolster Europe against Islam, and leaving the Euro is no longer in the FN manifesto.

    This has led to a bunch of parties springing up to the right of the FN. And I think means Ms Le Pen has more of a chance than people think of winning the Presidency. But it probably also means she won't be as revolutionary as might be expected, if she does win,

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,800
    The default formatting blogspot started using a year or two ago remains sodding tedious.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,749

    King Cole, one of the best short stories I ever wrote was me versus a spider.

    https://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/552983/

    It's said that the way to keep spiders away is to scatter conkers about. We've had very few since putting a couple outside our front door. Need replacing in autumn, of course.
    My Nan used to swear by this. When it came to nature she knew her stuff, she could even make an intoxicating drink from dandelions.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,800
    Betting Post
    F1: backed Russell for points at 3.75 and Mazepin to not be classified at 1.57.

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2021/04/imola-pre-race-2021.html

    Russell starts 12th, on pace, no flukes, and gets tyre choice. Overtaking's hard and pit stops long, so that will help, and he did well here last year.

    Mazepin spins. A lot. And Imola is not a forgiving place.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,448
    moonshine said:

    King Cole, one of the best short stories I ever wrote was me versus a spider.

    https://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/552983/

    It's said that the way to keep spiders away is to scatter conkers about. We've had very few since putting a couple outside our front door. Need replacing in autumn, of course.
    My Nan used to swear by this. When it came to nature she knew her stuff, she could even make an intoxicating drink from dandelions.
    Hence your nom de plume? One can of course ferment almost anything,particularly vegetable. Some commentator on the TV the other day was talking bewailing the lack of cowslips to make cowslip wine.

    When I started going to Lancashire I discover3ed that some of my prospective relations drank a (non-alcoholic) brew called dandelion and burdock.
  • Good thread and while I do not expect Drakeford to lose his seat he has recently caused annoyance by being behind England in opening up businesses and those living on the borders have been crossing into England to enjoy their pint while the business owners in Wales suffer and plead to open the Welsh econony

    Also labour have been in power for 22 years since devolution and poverty in Wales is as bad as ever as is the health service and education

    My granddaughter was top student in her year last year and has been told that due to deprivation in part of her post code and the poor achievement level of her school she is guaranteed a place in the university of her choice

    Wales needs a new start but I am not expecting a conservative led Senedd partly due to Andrew RT Davies who is a poor conservatives leader
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,601

    moonshine said:

    King Cole, one of the best short stories I ever wrote was me versus a spider.

    https://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/552983/

    It's said that the way to keep spiders away is to scatter conkers about. We've had very few since putting a couple outside our front door. Need replacing in autumn, of course.
    My Nan used to swear by this. When it came to nature she knew her stuff, she could even make an intoxicating drink from dandelions.
    Hence your nom de plume? One can of course ferment almost anything,particularly vegetable. Some commentator on the TV the other day was talking bewailing the lack of cowslips to make cowslip wine.

    When I started going to Lancashire I discover3ed that some of my prospective relations drank a (non-alcoholic) brew called dandelion and burdock.
    Dandelion and Burdock was my favourite drink as a youngster. That and Sarsaparilla.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,448

    Good thread and while I do not expect Drakeford to lose his seat he has recently caused annoyance by being behind England in opening up businesses and those living on the borders have been crossing into England to enjoy their pint while the business owners in Wales suffer and plead to open the Welsh econony

    Also labour have been in power for 22 years since devolution and poverty in Wales is as bad as ever as is the health service and education

    My granddaughter was top student in her year last year and has been told that due to deprivation in part of her post code and the poor achievement level of her school she is guaranteed a place in the university of her choice

    Wales needs a new start but I am not expecting a conservative led Senedd partly due to Andrew RT Davies who is a poor conservatives leader

    Congratulations to your granddaughter. Best wishes for a good university experience.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    edited April 2021

    Also on that Labour chat y'day I guess what I'm wondering is if Labour's pathway is to go anti-union pro-English but keep everything else that's left of centre. There's a good tradition of this. Although Corbyn came over as appearing to hate Britain, some of the other anti-Europeans had a kind of anti-federalist, pro-English worker, ethic about them. I'm thinking people like Eric Heffer. Len McCluskey is another.

    It's that which I think Labour need to tap into. Someone mentioned that they need their Remain supporters but I'm not sure that's true. What Labour need back are the Red Wall voters. So they need to go Blue Labour. English workers in the north and east.

    The Remainers will either stick with Labour or, in despair, vote LibDem or Green. Both of which are fine for Labour. It doesn't matter if they put yellow or green MPs into Parliament as long as Labour regain their old core. A coalition of Lab-LibDem-SNP-Green is probably Labour's best hope for route to power.

    What you are really saying is that Labour should go full behind hard Brexit, particularly in terms of a tougher line on immigration and forget Remainers to win back the Red Wall (they will still need Scottish and Welsh MPs support and the Union to win power).

    However that risks a repeat of the 2019 European elections results and them falling to third behind the LDs if their Remain vote goes LD while the Brexit party vote then is now voting for Boris and the Tories and likely to remain doing so
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Good thread and while I do not expect Drakeford to lose his seat he has recently caused annoyance by being behind England in opening up businesses and those living on the borders have been crossing into England to enjoy their pint while the business owners in Wales suffer and plead to open the Welsh econony

    Also labour have been in power for 22 years since devolution and poverty in Wales is as bad as ever as is the health service and education

    My granddaughter was top student in her year last year and has been told that due to deprivation in part of her post code and the poor achievement level of her school she is guaranteed a place in the university of her choice

    Wales needs a new start but I am not expecting a conservative led Senedd partly due to Andrew RT Davies who is a poor conservatives leader

    I think if Labour hold any constituency outside the valleys - and that includes Llanelli - that’s an underachievement by Plaid and the Tories.

    But they still might well hang on to one or two in the north east - Vale of Clwyd and Clwyd South both have local factors working in their favour - and the way Llanelli is churning right now the result is anyone’s guess.

    Old loyalties die hard, and then go suddenly, as we saw in 2015 and 2019. But I don’t see that Labour are at quite that stage in Wales yet.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,448
    HYUFD said:

    Also on that Labour chat y'day I guess what I'm wondering is if Labour's pathway is to go anti-union pro-English but keep everything else that's left of centre. There's a good tradition of this. Although Corbyn came over as appearing to hate Britain, some of the other anti-Europeans had a kind of anti-federalist, pro-English worker, ethic about them. I'm thinking people like Eric Heffer. Len McCluskey is another.

    It's that which I think Labour need to tap into. Someone mentioned that they need their Remain supporters but I'm not sure that's true. What Labour need back are the Red Wall voters. So they need to go Blue Labour. English workers in the north and east.

    The Remainers will either stick with Labour or, in despair, vote LibDem or Green. Both of which are fine for Labour. It doesn't matter if they put yellow or green MPs into Parliament as long as Labour regain their old core. A coalition of Lab-LibDem-SNP-Green is probably Labour's best hope for route to power.

    What you are really saying is that Labour should go full behind hard Brexit, particularly in terms of a tougher line on immigration and forget Remainers to win back the Red Wall (they will still need Scottish and Welsh MPs support and the Union to win power).

    However that risks a repeat of the 2019 European elections results and them falling to third behind the LDs if their Remain vote goes LD while the Brexit party vote then is now voting for Boris and the Tories and likely to remain doing so
    Wasn't there a suggestion at some time, that much of the Brexit vote was habitual non-voters? And consequently that which they wanted having been done, they'd go back to not voting at all?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    ydoethur said:



    Le Pen isn’t value in the French election because although she’s likely to make the final two, around 60% of the electorate will back her opponent - whoever that is - to keep her out.

    According to des sondages the only candidate Le Pen can beat in the final round is Hidalgo. So you'd basically be betting that Hidalgo will make it to the last two at the expense of Macron. That needs bigger odds than 3/1.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,813
    anyone think Liam Bryne is value at around 2/1 in the West Midlands get to wear a big chain race?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    I tell you what though, Labour have taken some pretty strange risks with their candidates. Despite fighting marginal seats, Drakeford, Rebecca Evans, Lesley Griffiths and Ken Skates are not on the regional lists. A bad night for Labour might see them lose a large chunk of their senior ministers.

    That would lead to an interesting situation. Would Vaughan Gething be negotiating with Plaid Cymru merely to try and fill the executive? Would Adam Price ask for the FM’s post as the price of his support?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:



    Le Pen isn’t value in the French election because although she’s likely to make the final two, around 60% of the electorate will back her opponent - whoever that is - to keep her out.

    According to des sondages the only candidate Le Pen can beat in the final round is Hidalgo. So you'd basically be betting that Hidalgo will make it to the last two at the expense of Macron. That needs bigger odds than 3/1.
    I cannot see how Hidalgo gets to the second round. In fact, I’m surprised she’s even considered likely for the first round. She makes Sadiq Khan look charismatic and effective.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    anyone think Liam Bryne is value at around 2/1 in the West Midlands get to wear a big chain race?

    No. He can win, but I’d want at least 4-1.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827
    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Whilst I think longer term sleaze can become an electoral issue, I am surprised Jenkin is considered an authority on the red wall.
  • Good thread and while I do not expect Drakeford to lose his seat he has recently caused annoyance by being behind England in opening up businesses and those living on the borders have been crossing into England to enjoy their pint while the business owners in Wales suffer and plead to open the Welsh econony

    Also labour have been in power for 22 years since devolution and poverty in Wales is as bad as ever as is the health service and education

    My granddaughter was top student in her year last year and has been told that due to deprivation in part of her post code and the poor achievement level of her school she is guaranteed a place in the university of her choice

    Wales needs a new start but I am not expecting a conservative led Senedd partly due to Andrew RT Davies who is a poor conservatives leader

    Congratulations to your granddaughter. Best wishes for a good university experience.
    Thanks OKC

    She is a very talented young lady who has the world at here feet
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827

    HYUFD said:

    Also on that Labour chat y'day I guess what I'm wondering is if Labour's pathway is to go anti-union pro-English but keep everything else that's left of centre. There's a good tradition of this. Although Corbyn came over as appearing to hate Britain, some of the other anti-Europeans had a kind of anti-federalist, pro-English worker, ethic about them. I'm thinking people like Eric Heffer. Len McCluskey is another.

    It's that which I think Labour need to tap into. Someone mentioned that they need their Remain supporters but I'm not sure that's true. What Labour need back are the Red Wall voters. So they need to go Blue Labour. English workers in the north and east.

    The Remainers will either stick with Labour or, in despair, vote LibDem or Green. Both of which are fine for Labour. It doesn't matter if they put yellow or green MPs into Parliament as long as Labour regain their old core. A coalition of Lab-LibDem-SNP-Green is probably Labour's best hope for route to power.

    What you are really saying is that Labour should go full behind hard Brexit, particularly in terms of a tougher line on immigration and forget Remainers to win back the Red Wall (they will still need Scottish and Welsh MPs support and the Union to win power).

    However that risks a repeat of the 2019 European elections results and them falling to third behind the LDs if their Remain vote goes LD while the Brexit party vote then is now voting for Boris and the Tories and likely to remain doing so
    Wasn't there a suggestion at some time, that much of the Brexit vote was habitual non-voters? And consequently that which they wanted having been done, they'd go back to not voting at all?
    Hence the unnecessary culture war.
  • ydoethur said:

    Good thread and while I do not expect Drakeford to lose his seat he has recently caused annoyance by being behind England in opening up businesses and those living on the borders have been crossing into England to enjoy their pint while the business owners in Wales suffer and plead to open the Welsh econony

    Also labour have been in power for 22 years since devolution and poverty in Wales is as bad as ever as is the health service and education

    My granddaughter was top student in her year last year and has been told that due to deprivation in part of her post code and the poor achievement level of her school she is guaranteed a place in the university of her choice

    Wales needs a new start but I am not expecting a conservative led Senedd partly due to Andrew RT Davies who is a poor conservatives leader

    I think if Labour hold any constituency outside the valleys - and that includes Llanelli - that’s an underachievement by Plaid and the Tories.

    But they still might well hang on to one or two in the north east - Vale of Clwyd and Clwyd South both have local factors working in their favour - and the way Llanelli is churning right now the result is anyone’s guess.

    Old loyalties die hard, and then go suddenly, as we saw in 2015 and 2019. But I don’t see that Labour are at quite that stage in Wales yet.
    I think that is a fair assessment

    However, the danger for labour is that they could over the next few years see that sudden event that renders them like they are in Scotland

    Labour would be wise not to take the Welsh for granted
  • ydoethur said:



    Whilst on there I noticed the tories are 4/7 favourites to win Hartlepool. Wow. When did they become favourites there?

    Asked a Tory MP the other day if he thought they would win Hartlepool.

    "Probably."
    Did s/he say why?
    Terrible choice of candidate by Labour.
    Yeah. Wtf were they thinking? Parachuting in an arch remainer who wanted to revoke the Brexit vote. Into one of the most Brexit seats in Britain.

    And they thought the tories wouldn't make much of that?

    I mean what the hell's happened to Labour? Do they still not get what happened in 2016 and 2019? The idea that it's all now past won't even be true in 20 years time let alone in 2 weeks.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,919
    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Keep up. Tory sleaze is all down to Labour spies in the Civil Service, not actual Tory sleaze.

    A network of Labour Party 'spies' is operating at the heart of Whitehall, feeding secret information to Sir Keir Starmer's team to destabilise the Government, senior Tory sources claim.

    The moles – Labour-sympathising civil servants – are believed to have played a key role in triggering the lobbying scandal which has allowed Sir Keir's party to construct a narrative of 'Tory sleaze' by leaking details of David Cameron's contacts with Ministers and officials.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482297/Hunt-Labours-No-10-moles-Network-spies-feeding-information-Sir-Keir-Starmers-team.html
  • IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Keep up. Tory sleaze is all down to Labour spies in the Civil Service, not actual Tory sleaze.

    A network of Labour Party 'spies' is operating at the heart of Whitehall, feeding secret information to Sir Keir Starmer's team to destabilise the Government, senior Tory sources claim.

    The moles – Labour-sympathising civil servants – are believed to have played a key role in triggering the lobbying scandal which has allowed Sir Keir's party to construct a narrative of 'Tory sleaze' by leaking details of David Cameron's contacts with Ministers and officials.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482297/Hunt-Labours-No-10-moles-Network-spies-feeding-information-Sir-Keir-Starmers-team.html
    There could be truth in both those comments
  • IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Whilst I think longer term sleaze can become an electoral issue, I am surprised Jenkin is considered an authority on the red wall.

    It kind of comes across to me like another example of bitter blues. They're almost hoping to take down Boris but citing all the wrong reasons.

    One day Boris will fall. Every politician does. Especially those like Boris with feet of clay.

    But at the same time, Boris is continually underestimated. For all of his many faults he's a populist who wins.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464

    HYUFD said:

    Also on that Labour chat y'day I guess what I'm wondering is if Labour's pathway is to go anti-union pro-English but keep everything else that's left of centre. There's a good tradition of this. Although Corbyn came over as appearing to hate Britain, some of the other anti-Europeans had a kind of anti-federalist, pro-English worker, ethic about them. I'm thinking people like Eric Heffer. Len McCluskey is another.

    It's that which I think Labour need to tap into. Someone mentioned that they need their Remain supporters but I'm not sure that's true. What Labour need back are the Red Wall voters. So they need to go Blue Labour. English workers in the north and east.

    The Remainers will either stick with Labour or, in despair, vote LibDem or Green. Both of which are fine for Labour. It doesn't matter if they put yellow or green MPs into Parliament as long as Labour regain their old core. A coalition of Lab-LibDem-SNP-Green is probably Labour's best hope for route to power.

    What you are really saying is that Labour should go full behind hard Brexit, particularly in terms of a tougher line on immigration and forget Remainers to win back the Red Wall (they will still need Scottish and Welsh MPs support and the Union to win power).

    However that risks a repeat of the 2019 European elections results and them falling to third behind the LDs if their Remain vote goes LD while the Brexit party vote then is now voting for Boris and the Tories and likely to remain doing so
    Wasn't there a suggestion at some time, that much of the Brexit vote was habitual non-voters? And consequently that which they wanted having been done, they'd go back to not voting at all?
    According to ONS every year approx 650,000 pass away (die) so about 3 million voters have died since the BREXIT vote (and thats before COVID), I think trying to chase them all five years on is pretty pointless - best off on focussing on the new ones -
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,919

    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Keep up. Tory sleaze is all down to Labour spies in the Civil Service, not actual Tory sleaze.

    A network of Labour Party 'spies' is operating at the heart of Whitehall, feeding secret information to Sir Keir Starmer's team to destabilise the Government, senior Tory sources claim.

    The moles – Labour-sympathising civil servants – are believed to have played a key role in triggering the lobbying scandal which has allowed Sir Keir's party to construct a narrative of 'Tory sleaze' by leaking details of David Cameron's contacts with Ministers and officials.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482297/Hunt-Labours-No-10-moles-Network-spies-feeding-information-Sir-Keir-Starmers-team.html
    There could be truth in both those comments
    Starmer will balls it up. He'll make it about due process but what voters understand is folding stuff in brown envelopes. How much did this friend of this minister make from this contract? How much did that former prime minister stand to make for sending a text message?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Allegations that politicians and advisers at the centre of power today may be using public positions – intentionally or unintentionally – to benefit their private interests are surfacing and being trawled over in the media. “Johnson may have made a big mistake here with this big inquiry,” said one Tory MP. “Something this big and wide is the last thing any government needs.”

    The dangers for government are becoming clearer by the day. Matt Hancock, the health secretary, who met Cameron and Greensill for a drink during which they lobbied him over a potential contract, came under scrutiny over his shareholding in a family firm approved to bid for NHS contracts. He insists he has broken no rules.

    Two of Johnson’s most senior advisers – his deputy chief of staff Simone Finn, and Francis Maude, who has been conducting an unremunerated review of civil service reform for the prime minister – are facing questions over whether their private financial interests are advanced by their public roles.

    Cameron’s defenders say he has no interest in taking revenge for the Greensill leaks. But he may not need to. There is already a sense that if those who leaked against him were doing so from inside government, the tactic has misfired. “If they thought it would stop with Cameron then they were plain stupid. This could now end up exploding on their own government,” said a senior figure who has straddled the Cameron, Theresa May and Johnson premierships in Whitehall.

    There are now no fewer than seven disparate inquiries into Greensill and wider lobbying issues. Lobbying rules now look certain to be tightened. Suddenly, as a result of the Greensill-Cameron affair and the fallout from it, the political mood in Westminster has changed. The Tories are reeling while Labour – which had seemed to lack a line of attack since the turn of the year as Conservative fortunes rebounded thanks to the successful vaccine roll-out – has an issue to focus on that it knows could damage Johnson, his government and his party.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905

    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Keep up. Tory sleaze is all down to Labour spies in the Civil Service, not actual Tory sleaze.

    A network of Labour Party 'spies' is operating at the heart of Whitehall, feeding secret information to Sir Keir Starmer's team to destabilise the Government, senior Tory sources claim.

    The moles – Labour-sympathising civil servants – are believed to have played a key role in triggering the lobbying scandal which has allowed Sir Keir's party to construct a narrative of 'Tory sleaze' by leaking details of David Cameron's contacts with Ministers and officials.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482297/Hunt-Labours-No-10-moles-Network-spies-feeding-information-Sir-Keir-Starmers-team.html
    But that is good news, isn't it? Somebody has to keep the Conservative Party honest - or at least try to.

    In the Good Old Days it used to be the Conservative MPs - them and the sense of duty and innate honesty of the Conserative leaders.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited April 2021

    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Keep up. Tory sleaze is all down to Labour spies in the Civil Service, not actual Tory sleaze.

    A network of Labour Party 'spies' is operating at the heart of Whitehall, feeding secret information to Sir Keir Starmer's team to destabilise the Government, senior Tory sources claim.

    The moles – Labour-sympathising civil servants – are believed to have played a key role in triggering the lobbying scandal which has allowed Sir Keir's party to construct a narrative of 'Tory sleaze' by leaking details of David Cameron's contacts with Ministers and officials.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482297/Hunt-Labours-No-10-moles-Network-spies-feeding-information-Sir-Keir-Starmers-team.html
    There could be truth in both those comments
    Alternatively - as is being suggested - Boris or his allies might have been behind the leaks about Cameron, trying to settle old scores, and it has backfired by spiralling out of control.

    Anyone who has been watching the way information has emerged throughout the virus crisis already knows we have government communication by leak to the press. The only extra ingredient needed is the PM, or someone in his camp, deciding it is time to score a point or two off Cameron.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    ClippP said:

    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Keep up. Tory sleaze is all down to Labour spies in the Civil Service, not actual Tory sleaze.

    A network of Labour Party 'spies' is operating at the heart of Whitehall, feeding secret information to Sir Keir Starmer's team to destabilise the Government, senior Tory sources claim.

    The moles – Labour-sympathising civil servants – are believed to have played a key role in triggering the lobbying scandal which has allowed Sir Keir's party to construct a narrative of 'Tory sleaze' by leaking details of David Cameron's contacts with Ministers and officials.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482297/Hunt-Labours-No-10-moles-Network-spies-feeding-information-Sir-Keir-Starmers-team.html
    But that is good news, isn't it? Somebody has to keep the Conservative Party honest - or at least try to.

    In the Good Old Days it used to be the Conservative MPs - them and the sense of duty and innate honesty of the Conserative leaders.
    Hmmm. The good old days were not perhaps all they were cracked up to be. I would, for example, like to know where that £5 million Heath left in his will came from.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,919

    HYUFD said:

    Also on that Labour chat y'day I guess what I'm wondering is if Labour's pathway is to go anti-union pro-English but keep everything else that's left of centre. There's a good tradition of this. Although Corbyn came over as appearing to hate Britain, some of the other anti-Europeans had a kind of anti-federalist, pro-English worker, ethic about them. I'm thinking people like Eric Heffer. Len McCluskey is another.

    It's that which I think Labour need to tap into. Someone mentioned that they need their Remain supporters but I'm not sure that's true. What Labour need back are the Red Wall voters. So they need to go Blue Labour. English workers in the north and east.

    The Remainers will either stick with Labour or, in despair, vote LibDem or Green. Both of which are fine for Labour. It doesn't matter if they put yellow or green MPs into Parliament as long as Labour regain their old core. A coalition of Lab-LibDem-SNP-Green is probably Labour's best hope for route to power.

    What you are really saying is that Labour should go full behind hard Brexit, particularly in terms of a tougher line on immigration and forget Remainers to win back the Red Wall (they will still need Scottish and Welsh MPs support and the Union to win power).

    However that risks a repeat of the 2019 European elections results and them falling to third behind the LDs if their Remain vote goes LD while the Brexit party vote then is now voting for Boris and the Tories and likely to remain doing so
    Wasn't there a suggestion at some time, that much of the Brexit vote was habitual non-voters? And consequently that which they wanted having been done, they'd go back to not voting at all?
    Hence the unnecessary culture war.
    What Cummings realised was that many Brexit voters were not hard core Brexiteers. Rather they were people who'd lost out during the globalisation years and were looking for someone to blame. Take Back Control. Brexit was in large part a cleverly-orchestrated NOTA vote. Hence the "levelling up" agenda, as well as the culture war.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,800
    Mr. Doethur, could be worse.

    When Arafat died his legacy had a greater value than the West Bank's GDP.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    FPT:

    To summarise various demands this evening about new housing:

    1) New houses are too small and should be the same size as other countries or those built in the 1930s
    2) All services need to be within a ten minute walk of new houses
    3) No houses should be built on fields from now on (or since the 1960s for that matter)

    Now match these demands with what houses people actually want to live in and what they can afford to pay for.

    Of course, different people were raising each issue. For example, I support 1, think 2 is nice and don't care about 3 as long as AONBs are protected. Self-build, like in most European countries with much higher rates of housebuilding than ours, is part of the answer to having houses people want to live in and of the right size, since few people will spend years being houses they don't want, or that are too small for them.
  • IanB2 said:

    Allegations that politicians and advisers at the centre of power today may be using public positions – intentionally or unintentionally – to benefit their private interests are surfacing and being trawled over in the media. “Johnson may have made a big mistake here with this big inquiry,” said one Tory MP. “Something this big and wide is the last thing any government needs.”

    The dangers for government are becoming clearer by the day. Matt Hancock, the health secretary, who met Cameron and Greensill for a drink during which they lobbied him over a potential contract, came under scrutiny over his shareholding in a family firm approved to bid for NHS contracts. He insists he has broken no rules.

    Two of Johnson’s most senior advisers – his deputy chief of staff Simone Finn, and Francis Maude, who has been conducting an unremunerated review of civil service reform for the prime minister – are facing questions over whether their private financial interests are advanced by their public roles.

    Cameron’s defenders say he has no interest in taking revenge for the Greensill leaks. But he may not need to. There is already a sense that if those who leaked against him were doing so from inside government, the tactic has misfired. “If they thought it would stop with Cameron then they were plain stupid. This could now end up exploding on their own government,” said a senior figure who has straddled the Cameron, Theresa May and Johnson premierships in Whitehall.

    There are now no fewer than seven disparate inquiries into Greensill and wider lobbying issues. Lobbying rules now look certain to be tightened. Suddenly, as a result of the Greensill-Cameron affair and the fallout from it, the political mood in Westminster has changed. The Tories are reeling while Labour – which had seemed to lack a line of attack since the turn of the year as Conservative fortunes rebounded thanks to the successful vaccine roll-out – has an issue to focus on that it knows could damage Johnson, his government and his party.

    It would be interesting to know who this person is who straddled the Cameron, May and Johnson government and of course Labour will try to make political capital out of it

    However, they may face their own problems over corruption in the coming months, not least when details of the issues in Liverpool are made public
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited April 2021

    IanB2 said:

    Allegations that politicians and advisers at the centre of power today may be using public positions – intentionally or unintentionally – to benefit their private interests are surfacing and being trawled over in the media. “Johnson may have made a big mistake here with this big inquiry,” said one Tory MP. “Something this big and wide is the last thing any government needs.”

    The dangers for government are becoming clearer by the day. Matt Hancock, the health secretary, who met Cameron and Greensill for a drink during which they lobbied him over a potential contract, came under scrutiny over his shareholding in a family firm approved to bid for NHS contracts. He insists he has broken no rules.

    Two of Johnson’s most senior advisers – his deputy chief of staff Simone Finn, and Francis Maude, who has been conducting an unremunerated review of civil service reform for the prime minister – are facing questions over whether their private financial interests are advanced by their public roles.

    Cameron’s defenders say he has no interest in taking revenge for the Greensill leaks. But he may not need to. There is already a sense that if those who leaked against him were doing so from inside government, the tactic has misfired. “If they thought it would stop with Cameron then they were plain stupid. This could now end up exploding on their own government,” said a senior figure who has straddled the Cameron, Theresa May and Johnson premierships in Whitehall.

    There are now no fewer than seven disparate inquiries into Greensill and wider lobbying issues. Lobbying rules now look certain to be tightened. Suddenly, as a result of the Greensill-Cameron affair and the fallout from it, the political mood in Westminster has changed. The Tories are reeling while Labour – which had seemed to lack a line of attack since the turn of the year as Conservative fortunes rebounded thanks to the successful vaccine roll-out – has an issue to focus on that it knows could damage Johnson, his government and his party.

    It would be interesting to know who this person is who straddled the Cameron, May and Johnson government and of course Labour will try to make political capital out of it

    However, they may face their own problems over corruption in the coming months, not least when details of the issues in Liverpool are made public
    Well, if there’s a minister involved, there’s only one that served all of them, and he also notably fell out with all of them.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,725

    Mr. Doethur, could be worse.

    When Arafat died his legacy had a greater value than the West Bank's GDP.

    A legacy of death.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,725
    ydoethur said:

    ClippP said:

    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Keep up. Tory sleaze is all down to Labour spies in the Civil Service, not actual Tory sleaze.

    A network of Labour Party 'spies' is operating at the heart of Whitehall, feeding secret information to Sir Keir Starmer's team to destabilise the Government, senior Tory sources claim.

    The moles – Labour-sympathising civil servants – are believed to have played a key role in triggering the lobbying scandal which has allowed Sir Keir's party to construct a narrative of 'Tory sleaze' by leaking details of David Cameron's contacts with Ministers and officials.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482297/Hunt-Labours-No-10-moles-Network-spies-feeding-information-Sir-Keir-Starmers-team.html
    But that is good news, isn't it? Somebody has to keep the Conservative Party honest - or at least try to.

    In the Good Old Days it used to be the Conservative MPs - them and the sense of duty and innate honesty of the Conserative leaders.
    Hmmm. The good old days were not perhaps all they were cracked up to be. I would, for example, like to know where that £5 million Heath left in his will came from.
    Did he collect green shield stamps?
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Keep up. Tory sleaze is all down to Labour spies in the Civil Service, not actual Tory sleaze.

    A network of Labour Party 'spies' is operating at the heart of Whitehall, feeding secret information to Sir Keir Starmer's team to destabilise the Government, senior Tory sources claim.

    The moles – Labour-sympathising civil servants – are believed to have played a key role in triggering the lobbying scandal which has allowed Sir Keir's party to construct a narrative of 'Tory sleaze' by leaking details of David Cameron's contacts with Ministers and officials.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482297/Hunt-Labours-No-10-moles-Network-spies-feeding-information-Sir-Keir-Starmers-team.html
    There could be truth in both those comments
    Alternatively - as is being suggested - Boris or his allies might have been behind the leaks about Cameron, trying to settle old scores, and it has backfired by spiralling out of control.

    Anyone who has been watching the way information has emerged throughout the virus crisis already knows we have government communication by leak to the press. The only extra ingredient needed is the PM, or someone in his camp, deciding it is time to score a point or two off Cameron.
    There may be some truth in that but the 8 enquiries are almost certain to find corruption within the civil service over several governments, and some unlikely politicians and other notaries may well find themselves in the spotlight

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,800
    Mr. JohnL, it's amusing to hear culture war being claimed as a right wing invention, when the extent of right wing involvement is largely a reactionary to some crazy bullshit being imported from the far left in America.

    It isn't the right wing that had a kneeling fetish for overtly Marxist, anti-nuclear family, anti-capitalists.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827

    HYUFD said:

    Also on that Labour chat y'day I guess what I'm wondering is if Labour's pathway is to go anti-union pro-English but keep everything else that's left of centre. There's a good tradition of this. Although Corbyn came over as appearing to hate Britain, some of the other anti-Europeans had a kind of anti-federalist, pro-English worker, ethic about them. I'm thinking people like Eric Heffer. Len McCluskey is another.

    It's that which I think Labour need to tap into. Someone mentioned that they need their Remain supporters but I'm not sure that's true. What Labour need back are the Red Wall voters. So they need to go Blue Labour. English workers in the north and east.

    The Remainers will either stick with Labour or, in despair, vote LibDem or Green. Both of which are fine for Labour. It doesn't matter if they put yellow or green MPs into Parliament as long as Labour regain their old core. A coalition of Lab-LibDem-SNP-Green is probably Labour's best hope for route to power.

    What you are really saying is that Labour should go full behind hard Brexit, particularly in terms of a tougher line on immigration and forget Remainers to win back the Red Wall (they will still need Scottish and Welsh MPs support and the Union to win power).

    However that risks a repeat of the 2019 European elections results and them falling to third behind the LDs if their Remain vote goes LD while the Brexit party vote then is now voting for Boris and the Tories and likely to remain doing so
    Wasn't there a suggestion at some time, that much of the Brexit vote was habitual non-voters? And consequently that which they wanted having been done, they'd go back to not voting at all?
    Hence the unnecessary culture war.
    What Cummings realised was that many Brexit voters were not hard core Brexiteers. Rather they were people who'd lost out during the globalisation years and were looking for someone to blame. Take Back Control. Brexit was in large part a cleverly-orchestrated NOTA vote. Hence the "levelling up" agenda, as well as the culture war.
    I actually support the levelling up agenda, but wish it had been done differently. The scapegoating of London as an enemy of the country is divisive. And many of the poorest parts of the country that need levelling up are actually in London. Having said that greater focus on the north is definitely overdue and will benefit the whole country longer term if it is followed through correctly.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,725

    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Keep up. Tory sleaze is all down to Labour spies in the Civil Service, not actual Tory sleaze.

    A network of Labour Party 'spies' is operating at the heart of Whitehall, feeding secret information to Sir Keir Starmer's team to destabilise the Government, senior Tory sources claim.

    The moles – Labour-sympathising civil servants – are believed to have played a key role in triggering the lobbying scandal which has allowed Sir Keir's party to construct a narrative of 'Tory sleaze' by leaking details of David Cameron's contacts with Ministers and officials.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482297/Hunt-Labours-No-10-moles-Network-spies-feeding-information-Sir-Keir-Starmers-team.html
    There could be truth in both those comments
    Starmer will balls it up. He'll make it about due process but what voters understand is folding stuff in brown envelopes. How much did this friend of this minister make from this contract? How much did that former prime minister stand to make for sending a text message?
    Do you have any evidence of folding stuff in brown envelopes? It would need a hell of a lot of brown envelopes....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Right on cue...the Sunday Rawnsley:

    It is in danger of becoming received wisdom that the Greensill affair is an example of “Tory sleaze” similar to that which polluted the party’s reputation in the late 1990s. They do not compare. The Greensill affair is several orders of magnitude more serious. A former prime minister is at the heart of this scandal that points to something rotten about how we are governed and is now embroiling not just politicians, but also the civil service.

    Conversations with MPs, officials and others suggest to me that Greensill is just the tip of a fatberg. Many MPs and advisers – Mr Cameron being one of them – were corporate lobbyists before they got a perch at Westminster. Many ex-MPs and former advisers work in paid advocacy. This is a very hectic revolving door.

    There are now more than half a dozen inquiries of various kinds. The government will probably be forced to rewrite some of the rules. Yet I struggle to believe that there will be a thorough clean-up so long as Boris Johnson is prime minister. Much as he may be relishing the humiliation of “Dave”, a rival since they were at Eton together, anything concerning conflicts of interests asks questions about the current tenant of Number 10. He sees nothing wrong with Jennifer Arcuri securing financial sponsorship for her business from City Hall when he was mayor of London and they were lovers. We still don’t know the identity of the mystery benefactors who paid for the expensive makeover of the Downing Street flat. Robert Jenrick remains seated in the cabinet despite expediting an “unlawful” planning decision that saved Richard Desmond, the property developer and Tory donor, £45m in taxes. The government continues to resist a comprehensive accounting of which friends and contacts of Tory ministers, MPs, peers and advisers were given first-class berths aboard the Covid-contracts gravy train, the crony express. Five months have passed since the resignation of Sir Alex Allan as the invigilator of the ministerial code in protest at Mr Johnson’s refusal to accept his findings about bullying by Priti Patel. The position of ethics prefect remains vacant, which tells you all you need to know about how much priority the prime minister gives to policing the integrity of his government.

    This Augean stable needs mucking out, but it is unlikely that Mr Johnson will be a vigorous shovel.
  • ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Allegations that politicians and advisers at the centre of power today may be using public positions – intentionally or unintentionally – to benefit their private interests are surfacing and being trawled over in the media. “Johnson may have made a big mistake here with this big inquiry,” said one Tory MP. “Something this big and wide is the last thing any government needs.”

    The dangers for government are becoming clearer by the day. Matt Hancock, the health secretary, who met Cameron and Greensill for a drink during which they lobbied him over a potential contract, came under scrutiny over his shareholding in a family firm approved to bid for NHS contracts. He insists he has broken no rules.

    Two of Johnson’s most senior advisers – his deputy chief of staff Simone Finn, and Francis Maude, who has been conducting an unremunerated review of civil service reform for the prime minister – are facing questions over whether their private financial interests are advanced by their public roles.

    Cameron’s defenders say he has no interest in taking revenge for the Greensill leaks. But he may not need to. There is already a sense that if those who leaked against him were doing so from inside government, the tactic has misfired. “If they thought it would stop with Cameron then they were plain stupid. This could now end up exploding on their own government,” said a senior figure who has straddled the Cameron, Theresa May and Johnson premierships in Whitehall.

    There are now no fewer than seven disparate inquiries into Greensill and wider lobbying issues. Lobbying rules now look certain to be tightened. Suddenly, as a result of the Greensill-Cameron affair and the fallout from it, the political mood in Westminster has changed. The Tories are reeling while Labour – which had seemed to lack a line of attack since the turn of the year as Conservative fortunes rebounded thanks to the successful vaccine roll-out – has an issue to focus on that it knows could damage Johnson, his government and his party.

    It would be interesting to know who this person is who straddled the Cameron, May and Johnson government and of course Labour will try to make political capital out of it

    However, they may face their own problems over corruption in the coming months, not least when details of the issues in Liverpool are made public
    Well, if there’s a minister involved, there’s only one that served all of them, and he also notably fell out with all of them.
    Intriguing
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,192
    edited April 2021
    ydoethur said:

    ClippP said:

    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Keep up. Tory sleaze is all down to Labour spies in the Civil Service, not actual Tory sleaze.

    A network of Labour Party 'spies' is operating at the heart of Whitehall, feeding secret information to Sir Keir Starmer's team to destabilise the Government, senior Tory sources claim.

    The moles – Labour-sympathising civil servants – are believed to have played a key role in triggering the lobbying scandal which has allowed Sir Keir's party to construct a narrative of 'Tory sleaze' by leaking details of David Cameron's contacts with Ministers and officials.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482297/Hunt-Labours-No-10-moles-Network-spies-feeding-information-Sir-Keir-Starmers-team.html
    But that is good news, isn't it? Somebody has to keep the Conservative Party honest - or at least try to.

    In the Good Old Days it used to be the Conservative MPs - them and the sense of duty and innate honesty of the Conserative leaders.
    Hmmm. The good old days were not perhaps all they were cracked up to be. I would, for example, like to know where that £5 million Heath left in his will came from.
    Wikipedia suggests part of the answer.
    ... maintained business links with a number of companies including a Saudi think tank, two investment funds and a Chinese freight operator, mainly as an adviser on China or a member of the governing board.[79] According to Chris Patten, the last Governor of Hong Kong, his commercial interests in China could have been one of the reasons why he denounced the democratic reforms introduced in the run-up to the handover of Hong Kong...
    Also, he was a backbencher for a quarter of a century after losing power, and had no dependents. In that context, £5m isn’t a huge amount of money for an ex PM.

    (Also, a fellow organist, recall, so not entirely bad.)
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    edited April 2021
    ydoethur said:

    ClippP said:

    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Keep up. Tory sleaze is all down to Labour spies in the Civil Service, not actual Tory sleaze.

    A network of Labour Party 'spies' is operating at the heart of Whitehall, feeding secret information to Sir Keir Starmer's team to destabilise the Government, senior Tory sources claim.

    The moles – Labour-sympathising civil servants – are believed to have played a key role in triggering the lobbying scandal which has allowed Sir Keir's party to construct a narrative of 'Tory sleaze' by leaking details of David Cameron's contacts with Ministers and officials.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482297/Hunt-Labours-No-10-moles-Network-spies-feeding-information-Sir-Keir-Starmers-team.html
    But that is good news, isn't it? Somebody has to keep the Conservative Party honest - or at least try to.

    In the Good Old Days it used to be the Conservative MPs - them and the sense of duty and innate honesty of the Conserative leaders.
    Hmmm. The good old days were not perhaps all they were cracked up to be. I would, for example, like to know where that £5 million Heath left in his will came from.
    He could be like his fellow supporters of European unity, Napoleon and Hitler, who left large legacies in their wills without the funds to pay for them?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    George Eustice, who is apparently one of Johnson's human shields, has been booked in for a pegging by Sophy to explain why everything is 𝓙𝓤𝓢𝓣 𝓕𝓘𝓝𝓔 with The Cockster's NHS company. However whatever nonsense he is spaffing all over her enormous glass desk is completely drowned by the spectacle of his frankly astonishing comb over. We're talking Netenyahu in the 90s here. Amazing.
  • IanB2 said:

    Right on cue...the Sunday Rawnsley:

    It is in danger of becoming received wisdom that the Greensill affair is an example of “Tory sleaze” similar to that which polluted the party’s reputation in the late 1990s. They do not compare. The Greensill affair is several orders of magnitude more serious. A former prime minister is at the heart of this scandal that points to something rotten about how we are governed and is now embroiling not just politicians, but also the civil service.

    Conversations with MPs, officials and others suggest to me that Greensill is just the tip of a fatberg. Many MPs and advisers – Mr Cameron being one of them – were corporate lobbyists before they got a perch at Westminster. Many ex-MPs and former advisers work in paid advocacy. This is a very hectic revolving door.

    There are now more than half a dozen inquiries of various kinds. The government will probably be forced to rewrite some of the rules. Yet I struggle to believe that there will be a thorough clean-up so long as Boris Johnson is prime minister. Much as he may be relishing the humiliation of “Dave”, a rival since they were at Eton together, anything concerning conflicts of interests asks questions about the current tenant of Number 10. He sees nothing wrong with Jennifer Arcuri securing financial sponsorship for her business from City Hall when he was mayor of London and they were lovers. We still don’t know the identity of the mystery benefactors who paid for the expensive makeover of the Downing Street flat. Robert Jenrick remains seated in the cabinet despite expediting an “unlawful” planning decision that saved Richard Desmond, the property developer and Tory donor, £45m in taxes. The government continues to resist a comprehensive accounting of which friends and contacts of Tory ministers, MPs, peers and advisers were given first-class berths aboard the Covid-contracts gravy train, the crony express. Five months have passed since the resignation of Sir Alex Allan as the invigilator of the ministerial code in protest at Mr Johnson’s refusal to accept his findings about bullying by Priti Patel. The position of ethics prefect remains vacant, which tells you all you need to know about how much priority the prime minister gives to policing the integrity of his government.

    This Augean stable needs mucking out, but it is unlikely that Mr Johnson will be a vigorous shovel.

    It will be interesting to see if this does affect the polling but of course it is only just over two weeks to the May elections which should provide an answer, and indeed is a big moment for Starmer and Labour
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827
    edited April 2021
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Allegations that politicians and advisers at the centre of power today may be using public positions – intentionally or unintentionally – to benefit their private interests are surfacing and being trawled over in the media. “Johnson may have made a big mistake here with this big inquiry,” said one Tory MP. “Something this big and wide is the last thing any government needs.”

    The dangers for government are becoming clearer by the day. Matt Hancock, the health secretary, who met Cameron and Greensill for a drink during which they lobbied him over a potential contract, came under scrutiny over his shareholding in a family firm approved to bid for NHS contracts. He insists he has broken no rules.

    Two of Johnson’s most senior advisers – his deputy chief of staff Simone Finn, and Francis Maude, who has been conducting an unremunerated review of civil service reform for the prime minister – are facing questions over whether their private financial interests are advanced by their public roles.

    Cameron’s defenders say he has no interest in taking revenge for the Greensill leaks. But he may not need to. There is already a sense that if those who leaked against him were doing so from inside government, the tactic has misfired. “If they thought it would stop with Cameron then they were plain stupid. This could now end up exploding on their own government,” said a senior figure who has straddled the Cameron, Theresa May and Johnson premierships in Whitehall.

    There are now no fewer than seven disparate inquiries into Greensill and wider lobbying issues. Lobbying rules now look certain to be tightened. Suddenly, as a result of the Greensill-Cameron affair and the fallout from it, the political mood in Westminster has changed. The Tories are reeling while Labour – which had seemed to lack a line of attack since the turn of the year as Conservative fortunes rebounded thanks to the successful vaccine roll-out – has an issue to focus on that it knows could damage Johnson, his government and his party.

    It would be interesting to know who this person is who straddled the Cameron, May and Johnson government and of course Labour will try to make political capital out of it

    However, they may face their own problems over corruption in the coming months, not least when details of the issues in Liverpool are made public
    Well, if there’s a minister involved, there’s only one that served all of them, and he also notably fell out with all of them.
    There must be more than one, I guess you mean Gove, but think Javid and Truss were cabinet ministers for all three, Hancock, Leadsom and Patel ministers for all three, probably others as well.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    George Eustice, who is apparently one of Johnson's human shields, has been booked in for a pegging by Sophy to explain why everything is 𝓙𝓤𝓢𝓣 𝓕𝓘𝓝𝓔 with The Cockster's NHS company. However whatever nonsense he is spaffing all over her enormous glass desk is completely drowned by the spectacle of his frankly astonishing comb over. We're talking Netenyahu in the 90s here. Amazing.

    You may think it is clever but your reference to Sophy Ridge, who is pregnant, is pure misogyny and frankly abusive to her
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827

    IanB2 said:

    Right on cue...the Sunday Rawnsley:

    It is in danger of becoming received wisdom that the Greensill affair is an example of “Tory sleaze” similar to that which polluted the party’s reputation in the late 1990s. They do not compare. The Greensill affair is several orders of magnitude more serious. A former prime minister is at the heart of this scandal that points to something rotten about how we are governed and is now embroiling not just politicians, but also the civil service.

    Conversations with MPs, officials and others suggest to me that Greensill is just the tip of a fatberg. Many MPs and advisers – Mr Cameron being one of them – were corporate lobbyists before they got a perch at Westminster. Many ex-MPs and former advisers work in paid advocacy. This is a very hectic revolving door.

    There are now more than half a dozen inquiries of various kinds. The government will probably be forced to rewrite some of the rules. Yet I struggle to believe that there will be a thorough clean-up so long as Boris Johnson is prime minister. Much as he may be relishing the humiliation of “Dave”, a rival since they were at Eton together, anything concerning conflicts of interests asks questions about the current tenant of Number 10. He sees nothing wrong with Jennifer Arcuri securing financial sponsorship for her business from City Hall when he was mayor of London and they were lovers. We still don’t know the identity of the mystery benefactors who paid for the expensive makeover of the Downing Street flat. Robert Jenrick remains seated in the cabinet despite expediting an “unlawful” planning decision that saved Richard Desmond, the property developer and Tory donor, £45m in taxes. The government continues to resist a comprehensive accounting of which friends and contacts of Tory ministers, MPs, peers and advisers were given first-class berths aboard the Covid-contracts gravy train, the crony express. Five months have passed since the resignation of Sir Alex Allan as the invigilator of the ministerial code in protest at Mr Johnson’s refusal to accept his findings about bullying by Priti Patel. The position of ethics prefect remains vacant, which tells you all you need to know about how much priority the prime minister gives to policing the integrity of his government.

    This Augean stable needs mucking out, but it is unlikely that Mr Johnson will be a vigorous shovel.

    It will be interesting to see if this does affect the polling but of course it is only just over two weeks to the May elections which should provide an answer, and indeed is a big moment for Starmer and Labour
    Sleaze is a slow burn, and has little impact when the government is popular. It won't impact the May elections much, but it will amplify any problems the government faces by 2024.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Allegations that politicians and advisers at the centre of power today may be using public positions – intentionally or unintentionally – to benefit their private interests are surfacing and being trawled over in the media. “Johnson may have made a big mistake here with this big inquiry,” said one Tory MP. “Something this big and wide is the last thing any government needs.”

    The dangers for government are becoming clearer by the day. Matt Hancock, the health secretary, who met Cameron and Greensill for a drink during which they lobbied him over a potential contract, came under scrutiny over his shareholding in a family firm approved to bid for NHS contracts. He insists he has broken no rules.

    Two of Johnson’s most senior advisers – his deputy chief of staff Simone Finn, and Francis Maude, who has been conducting an unremunerated review of civil service reform for the prime minister – are facing questions over whether their private financial interests are advanced by their public roles.

    Cameron’s defenders say he has no interest in taking revenge for the Greensill leaks. But he may not need to. There is already a sense that if those who leaked against him were doing so from inside government, the tactic has misfired. “If they thought it would stop with Cameron then they were plain stupid. This could now end up exploding on their own government,” said a senior figure who has straddled the Cameron, Theresa May and Johnson premierships in Whitehall.

    There are now no fewer than seven disparate inquiries into Greensill and wider lobbying issues. Lobbying rules now look certain to be tightened. Suddenly, as a result of the Greensill-Cameron affair and the fallout from it, the political mood in Westminster has changed. The Tories are reeling while Labour – which had seemed to lack a line of attack since the turn of the year as Conservative fortunes rebounded thanks to the successful vaccine roll-out – has an issue to focus on that it knows could damage Johnson, his government and his party.

    It would be interesting to know who this person is who straddled the Cameron, May and Johnson government and of course Labour will try to make political capital out of it

    However, they may face their own problems over corruption in the coming months, not least when details of the issues in Liverpool are made public
    Well, if there’s a minister involved, there’s only one that served all of them, and he also notably fell out with all of them.
    There must be more than one, I guess you mean Gove, but think Javid and Truss were cabinet ministers for all three, Hancock, Leadsom and Patel ministers for all three, probably others as well.
    I took the quote to mean a senior civil servant, speaking off the record.
  • IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Allegations that politicians and advisers at the centre of power today may be using public positions – intentionally or unintentionally – to benefit their private interests are surfacing and being trawled over in the media. “Johnson may have made a big mistake here with this big inquiry,” said one Tory MP. “Something this big and wide is the last thing any government needs.”

    The dangers for government are becoming clearer by the day. Matt Hancock, the health secretary, who met Cameron and Greensill for a drink during which they lobbied him over a potential contract, came under scrutiny over his shareholding in a family firm approved to bid for NHS contracts. He insists he has broken no rules.

    Two of Johnson’s most senior advisers – his deputy chief of staff Simone Finn, and Francis Maude, who has been conducting an unremunerated review of civil service reform for the prime minister – are facing questions over whether their private financial interests are advanced by their public roles.

    Cameron’s defenders say he has no interest in taking revenge for the Greensill leaks. But he may not need to. There is already a sense that if those who leaked against him were doing so from inside government, the tactic has misfired. “If they thought it would stop with Cameron then they were plain stupid. This could now end up exploding on their own government,” said a senior figure who has straddled the Cameron, Theresa May and Johnson premierships in Whitehall.

    There are now no fewer than seven disparate inquiries into Greensill and wider lobbying issues. Lobbying rules now look certain to be tightened. Suddenly, as a result of the Greensill-Cameron affair and the fallout from it, the political mood in Westminster has changed. The Tories are reeling while Labour – which had seemed to lack a line of attack since the turn of the year as Conservative fortunes rebounded thanks to the successful vaccine roll-out – has an issue to focus on that it knows could damage Johnson, his government and his party.

    It would be interesting to know who this person is who straddled the Cameron, May and Johnson government and of course Labour will try to make political capital out of it

    However, they may face their own problems over corruption in the coming months, not least when details of the issues in Liverpool are made public
    Well, if there’s a minister involved, there’s only one that served all of them, and he also notably fell out with all of them.
    There must be more than one, I guess you mean Gove, but think Javid and Truss were cabinet ministers for all three, Hancock, Leadsom and Patel ministers for all three, probably others as well.
    I took the quote to mean a senior civil servant, speaking off the record.
    I really think civil servants are going to face serious questions over the Greensill affair, and will no doubt be under the spotlight in the 8 enquiries
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Allegations that politicians and advisers at the centre of power today may be using public positions – intentionally or unintentionally – to benefit their private interests are surfacing and being trawled over in the media. “Johnson may have made a big mistake here with this big inquiry,” said one Tory MP. “Something this big and wide is the last thing any government needs.”

    The dangers for government are becoming clearer by the day. Matt Hancock, the health secretary, who met Cameron and Greensill for a drink during which they lobbied him over a potential contract, came under scrutiny over his shareholding in a family firm approved to bid for NHS contracts. He insists he has broken no rules.

    Two of Johnson’s most senior advisers – his deputy chief of staff Simone Finn, and Francis Maude, who has been conducting an unremunerated review of civil service reform for the prime minister – are facing questions over whether their private financial interests are advanced by their public roles.

    Cameron’s defenders say he has no interest in taking revenge for the Greensill leaks. But he may not need to. There is already a sense that if those who leaked against him were doing so from inside government, the tactic has misfired. “If they thought it would stop with Cameron then they were plain stupid. This could now end up exploding on their own government,” said a senior figure who has straddled the Cameron, Theresa May and Johnson premierships in Whitehall.

    There are now no fewer than seven disparate inquiries into Greensill and wider lobbying issues. Lobbying rules now look certain to be tightened. Suddenly, as a result of the Greensill-Cameron affair and the fallout from it, the political mood in Westminster has changed. The Tories are reeling while Labour – which had seemed to lack a line of attack since the turn of the year as Conservative fortunes rebounded thanks to the successful vaccine roll-out – has an issue to focus on that it knows could damage Johnson, his government and his party.

    It would be interesting to know who this person is who straddled the Cameron, May and Johnson government and of course Labour will try to make political capital out of it

    However, they may face their own problems over corruption in the coming months, not least when details of the issues in Liverpool are made public
    Well, if there’s a minister involved, there’s only one that served all of them, and he also notably fell out with all of them.
    There must be more than one, I guess you mean Gove, but think Javid and Truss were cabinet ministers for all three, Hancock, Leadsom and Patel ministers for all three, probably others as well.
    I took the quote to mean a senior civil servant, speaking off the record.
    It wouldn't surprise me but wholly inappropriate if so. Firstly civil servants should be supporting tackling corruption regardless of its political impact. Secondly civil servants shouldn't get involved in blatant politicking.

    Of course, it may just be an "enterprising" journalist who simply made up the quote themselves in the best traditions of our PM.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,595
    ydoethur said:

    ClippP said:

    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Keep up. Tory sleaze is all down to Labour spies in the Civil Service, not actual Tory sleaze.

    A network of Labour Party 'spies' is operating at the heart of Whitehall, feeding secret information to Sir Keir Starmer's team to destabilise the Government, senior Tory sources claim.

    The moles – Labour-sympathising civil servants – are believed to have played a key role in triggering the lobbying scandal which has allowed Sir Keir's party to construct a narrative of 'Tory sleaze' by leaking details of David Cameron's contacts with Ministers and officials.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482297/Hunt-Labours-No-10-moles-Network-spies-feeding-information-Sir-Keir-Starmers-team.html
    But that is good news, isn't it? Somebody has to keep the Conservative Party honest - or at least try to.

    In the Good Old Days it used to be the Conservative MPs - them and the sense of duty and innate honesty of the Conserative leaders.
    Hmmm. The good old days were not perhaps all they were cracked up to be. I would, for example, like to know where that £5 million Heath left in his will came from.
    He sold industrial quantities of bile....
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,725

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Allegations that politicians and advisers at the centre of power today may be using public positions – intentionally or unintentionally – to benefit their private interests are surfacing and being trawled over in the media. “Johnson may have made a big mistake here with this big inquiry,” said one Tory MP. “Something this big and wide is the last thing any government needs.”

    The dangers for government are becoming clearer by the day. Matt Hancock, the health secretary, who met Cameron and Greensill for a drink during which they lobbied him over a potential contract, came under scrutiny over his shareholding in a family firm approved to bid for NHS contracts. He insists he has broken no rules.

    Two of Johnson’s most senior advisers – his deputy chief of staff Simone Finn, and Francis Maude, who has been conducting an unremunerated review of civil service reform for the prime minister – are facing questions over whether their private financial interests are advanced by their public roles.

    Cameron’s defenders say he has no interest in taking revenge for the Greensill leaks. But he may not need to. There is already a sense that if those who leaked against him were doing so from inside government, the tactic has misfired. “If they thought it would stop with Cameron then they were plain stupid. This could now end up exploding on their own government,” said a senior figure who has straddled the Cameron, Theresa May and Johnson premierships in Whitehall.

    There are now no fewer than seven disparate inquiries into Greensill and wider lobbying issues. Lobbying rules now look certain to be tightened. Suddenly, as a result of the Greensill-Cameron affair and the fallout from it, the political mood in Westminster has changed. The Tories are reeling while Labour – which had seemed to lack a line of attack since the turn of the year as Conservative fortunes rebounded thanks to the successful vaccine roll-out – has an issue to focus on that it knows could damage Johnson, his government and his party.

    It would be interesting to know who this person is who straddled the Cameron, May and Johnson government and of course Labour will try to make political capital out of it

    However, they may face their own problems over corruption in the coming months, not least when details of the issues in Liverpool are made public
    Well, if there’s a minister involved, there’s only one that served all of them, and he also notably fell out with all of them.
    There must be more than one, I guess you mean Gove, but think Javid and Truss were cabinet ministers for all three, Hancock, Leadsom and Patel ministers for all three, probably others as well.
    I took the quote to mean a senior civil servant, speaking off the record.
    I really think civil servants are going to face serious questions over the Greensill affair, and will no doubt be under the spotlight in the 8 enquiries
    Perish the thought that we have any civil servants who aren't entirely honest..
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    edited April 2021
    ydoethur said:

    ClippP said:

    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Keep up. Tory sleaze is all down to Labour spies in the Civil Service, not actual Tory sleaze.

    A network of Labour Party 'spies' is operating at the heart of Whitehall, feeding secret information to Sir Keir Starmer's team to destabilise the Government, senior Tory sources claim.

    The moles – Labour-sympathising civil servants – are believed to have played a key role in triggering the lobbying scandal which has allowed Sir Keir's party to construct a narrative of 'Tory sleaze' by leaking details of David Cameron's contacts with Ministers and officials.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482297/Hunt-Labours-No-10-moles-Network-spies-feeding-information-Sir-Keir-Starmers-team.html
    But that is good news, isn't it? Somebody has to keep the Conservative Party honest - or at least try to.

    In the Good Old Days it used to be the Conservative MPs - them and the sense of duty and innate honesty of the Conserative leaders.
    Hmmm. The good old days were not perhaps all they were cracked up to be. I would, for example, like to know where that £5 million Heath left in his will came from.
    I mean the very good old days, Dr Ydoethur. When Conservatives were honest.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595

    Betting Post
    F1: backed Russell for points at 3.75 and Mazepin to not be classified at 1.57.

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2021/04/imola-pre-race-2021.html

    Russell starts 12th, on pace, no flukes, and gets tyre choice. Overtaking's hard and pit stops long, so that will help, and he did well here last year.

    Mazepin spins. A lot. And Imola is not a forgiving place.

    Err, didn’t Russell bin it all on his own, while under the safety car, last year?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    edited April 2021
    ydoethur said:


    Hmmm. The good old days were not perhaps all they were cracked up to be. I would, for example, like to know where that £5 million Heath left in his will came from.

    Heath still remains a bit of enigma. They should do a biopic of him. Brian out of Coronation Street could play him with some authenticity I feel.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,378
    Great header. I have for a while thought we were looking at an Andrew RT Davies First Ministership. Despite what the polls say, Johnson vaccinated the nation, and Drakeford closed the pubs (and they are still closed) is the anecdotal response from voters. There is a lot of personal animosity towards 'teetotal' Drakeford on the latter point. I am hoping however that the Conservative corruption crisis will at least avert that calamity.

    My.money is now on a Labour/PC arrangement, but Drakeford could certainly be a casualty and the Conservatives being biggest party in both votes and seats is not beyond the realms of probability.
  • Great header. I have for a while thought we were looking at an Andrew RT Davies First Ministership. Despite what the polls say, Johnson vaccinated the nation, and Drakeford closed the pubs (and they are still closed) is the anecdotal response from voters. There is a lot of personal animosity towards 'teetotal' Drakeford on the latter point. I am hoping however that the Conservative corruption crisis will at least avert that calamity.

    My.money is now on a Labour/PC arrangement, but Drakeford could certainly be a casualty and the Conservatives being biggest party in both votes and seats is not beyond the realms of probability.

    Fairly much how I see it
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,725

    ydoethur said:

    ClippP said:

    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Keep up. Tory sleaze is all down to Labour spies in the Civil Service, not actual Tory sleaze.

    A network of Labour Party 'spies' is operating at the heart of Whitehall, feeding secret information to Sir Keir Starmer's team to destabilise the Government, senior Tory sources claim.

    The moles – Labour-sympathising civil servants – are believed to have played a key role in triggering the lobbying scandal which has allowed Sir Keir's party to construct a narrative of 'Tory sleaze' by leaking details of David Cameron's contacts with Ministers and officials.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482297/Hunt-Labours-No-10-moles-Network-spies-feeding-information-Sir-Keir-Starmers-team.html
    But that is good news, isn't it? Somebody has to keep the Conservative Party honest - or at least try to.

    In the Good Old Days it used to be the Conservative MPs - them and the sense of duty and innate honesty of the Conserative leaders.
    Hmmm. The good old days were not perhaps all they were cracked up to be. I would, for example, like to know where that £5 million Heath left in his will came from.
    He sold industrial quantities of bile....
    Nobody bought his bile iirc. They just ignored him and let him swim in it. That's why he ended up a lonely old man and left his house to a nation that didn't want it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,800
    Mr. Sandpit, if memory serves there was a weird safety car situation whereby the front chaps, on a straight, were going very slowly, the chaps behind accelerated and then realised they'd screwed up too late. Russell's pace was good.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,346

    moonshine said:

    King Cole, one of the best short stories I ever wrote was me versus a spider.

    https://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/552983/

    It's said that the way to keep spiders away is to scatter conkers about. We've had very few since putting a couple outside our front door. Need replacing in autumn, of course.
    My Nan used to swear by this. When it came to nature she knew her stuff, she could even make an intoxicating drink from dandelions.
    Hence your nom de plume? One can of course ferment almost anything,particularly vegetable. Some commentator on the TV the other day was talking bewailing the lack of cowslips to make cowslip wine.

    When I started going to Lancashire I discover3ed that some of my prospective relations drank a (non-alcoholic) brew called dandelion and burdock.
    OKC that was my favourite as a boy. You still get it in shops but just a few posh ones nowadays. Used to love an ice cream float with it as well.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    ClippP said:

    ydoethur said:

    ClippP said:

    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Keep up. Tory sleaze is all down to Labour spies in the Civil Service, not actual Tory sleaze.

    A network of Labour Party 'spies' is operating at the heart of Whitehall, feeding secret information to Sir Keir Starmer's team to destabilise the Government, senior Tory sources claim.

    The moles – Labour-sympathising civil servants – are believed to have played a key role in triggering the lobbying scandal which has allowed Sir Keir's party to construct a narrative of 'Tory sleaze' by leaking details of David Cameron's contacts with Ministers and officials.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482297/Hunt-Labours-No-10-moles-Network-spies-feeding-information-Sir-Keir-Starmers-team.html
    But that is good news, isn't it? Somebody has to keep the Conservative Party honest - or at least try to.

    In the Good Old Days it used to be the Conservative MPs - them and the sense of duty and innate honesty of the Conserative leaders.
    Hmmm. The good old days were not perhaps all they were cracked up to be. I would, for example, like to know where that £5 million Heath left in his will came from.
    I mean the very good old days, Dr Ydoethur. When Conservatives were honest.
    Evidently you don't remember the Slater Walker scandals?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,346

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Allegations that politicians and advisers at the centre of power today may be using public positions – intentionally or unintentionally – to benefit their private interests are surfacing and being trawled over in the media. “Johnson may have made a big mistake here with this big inquiry,” said one Tory MP. “Something this big and wide is the last thing any government needs.”

    The dangers for government are becoming clearer by the day. Matt Hancock, the health secretary, who met Cameron and Greensill for a drink during which they lobbied him over a potential contract, came under scrutiny over his shareholding in a family firm approved to bid for NHS contracts. He insists he has broken no rules.

    Two of Johnson’s most senior advisers – his deputy chief of staff Simone Finn, and Francis Maude, who has been conducting an unremunerated review of civil service reform for the prime minister – are facing questions over whether their private financial interests are advanced by their public roles.

    Cameron’s defenders say he has no interest in taking revenge for the Greensill leaks. But he may not need to. There is already a sense that if those who leaked against him were doing so from inside government, the tactic has misfired. “If they thought it would stop with Cameron then they were plain stupid. This could now end up exploding on their own government,” said a senior figure who has straddled the Cameron, Theresa May and Johnson premierships in Whitehall.

    There are now no fewer than seven disparate inquiries into Greensill and wider lobbying issues. Lobbying rules now look certain to be tightened. Suddenly, as a result of the Greensill-Cameron affair and the fallout from it, the political mood in Westminster has changed. The Tories are reeling while Labour – which had seemed to lack a line of attack since the turn of the year as Conservative fortunes rebounded thanks to the successful vaccine roll-out – has an issue to focus on that it knows could damage Johnson, his government and his party.

    It would be interesting to know who this person is who straddled the Cameron, May and Johnson government and of course Labour will try to make political capital out of it

    However, they may face their own problems over corruption in the coming months, not least when details of the issues in Liverpool are made public
    Well, if there’s a minister involved, there’s only one that served all of them, and he also notably fell out with all of them.
    There must be more than one, I guess you mean Gove, but think Javid and Truss were cabinet ministers for all three, Hancock, Leadsom and Patel ministers for all three, probably others as well.
    I took the quote to mean a senior civil servant, speaking off the record.
    I really think civil servants are going to face serious questions over the Greensill affair, and will no doubt be under the spotlight in the 8 enquiries
    Both them and the cabinet are a bunch of crooks. Should be a shedload of them in the jail by now.
    People who vote for these scumbags again are easily pleased.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Mark Drakeford looks out of time to me.

    The way he looks, sounds and dresses is at least 40 years out of date; like he's a junior minister that's been plucked out of Wilson's cabinet of 1975 and temporally transported to 2021.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,595

    Mark Drakeford looks out of time to me.

    The way he looks, sounds and dresses is at least 40 years out of date; like he's a junior minister that's been plucked out of Wilson's cabinet of 1975 and temporally transported to 2021.

    Cardiff....Torchwood...Dr. Who....

    NOW it makes sense!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    edited April 2021

    Mr. Sandpit, if memory serves there was a weird safety car situation whereby the front chaps, on a straight, were going very slowly, the chaps behind accelerated and then realised they'd screwed up too late. Russell's pace was good.

    That accident was at Mugello last year, where at the safety car restart, the back of the midfield didn’t see cars in front going slowly. Russell crashed on his own behind the SC at Imola.

    I agree that he has a good shout for points today though.
  • malcolmg said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Allegations that politicians and advisers at the centre of power today may be using public positions – intentionally or unintentionally – to benefit their private interests are surfacing and being trawled over in the media. “Johnson may have made a big mistake here with this big inquiry,” said one Tory MP. “Something this big and wide is the last thing any government needs.”

    The dangers for government are becoming clearer by the day. Matt Hancock, the health secretary, who met Cameron and Greensill for a drink during which they lobbied him over a potential contract, came under scrutiny over his shareholding in a family firm approved to bid for NHS contracts. He insists he has broken no rules.

    Two of Johnson’s most senior advisers – his deputy chief of staff Simone Finn, and Francis Maude, who has been conducting an unremunerated review of civil service reform for the prime minister – are facing questions over whether their private financial interests are advanced by their public roles.

    Cameron’s defenders say he has no interest in taking revenge for the Greensill leaks. But he may not need to. There is already a sense that if those who leaked against him were doing so from inside government, the tactic has misfired. “If they thought it would stop with Cameron then they were plain stupid. This could now end up exploding on their own government,” said a senior figure who has straddled the Cameron, Theresa May and Johnson premierships in Whitehall.

    There are now no fewer than seven disparate inquiries into Greensill and wider lobbying issues. Lobbying rules now look certain to be tightened. Suddenly, as a result of the Greensill-Cameron affair and the fallout from it, the political mood in Westminster has changed. The Tories are reeling while Labour – which had seemed to lack a line of attack since the turn of the year as Conservative fortunes rebounded thanks to the successful vaccine roll-out – has an issue to focus on that it knows could damage Johnson, his government and his party.

    It would be interesting to know who this person is who straddled the Cameron, May and Johnson government and of course Labour will try to make political capital out of it

    However, they may face their own problems over corruption in the coming months, not least when details of the issues in Liverpool are made public
    Well, if there’s a minister involved, there’s only one that served all of them, and he also notably fell out with all of them.
    There must be more than one, I guess you mean Gove, but think Javid and Truss were cabinet ministers for all three, Hancock, Leadsom and Patel ministers for all three, probably others as well.
    I took the quote to mean a senior civil servant, speaking off the record.
    I really think civil servants are going to face serious questions over the Greensill affair, and will no doubt be under the spotlight in the 8 enquiries
    Both them and the cabinet are a bunch of crooks. Should be a shedload of them in the jail by now.
    People who vote for these scumbags again are easily pleased.
    Not sure how we vote for the civil servants Malc
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    On topic, stupendous tip by @TSE - very well spotted.

    A very likely loser but it feels more like a 8/1 shot to me, so I've gone in at 25/1.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,595
    ClippP said:

    ydoethur said:

    ClippP said:

    IanB2 said:

    Boris Johnson will lose the trust of former Labour voters who helped put him in Downing Street unless he tackles the burgeoning sleaze crisis now threatening to engulf his government and the Whitehall machine, a leading Tory says today.

    The warning from Sir Bernard Jenkin, chair of the powerful Commons liaison committee, is evidence of mounting concern in Conservative ranks about the potential electoral damage to the Tory party, particularly in so called “red wall” seats, from any further revelations like the David Cameron lobbying scandal.

    Keep up. Tory sleaze is all down to Labour spies in the Civil Service, not actual Tory sleaze.

    A network of Labour Party 'spies' is operating at the heart of Whitehall, feeding secret information to Sir Keir Starmer's team to destabilise the Government, senior Tory sources claim.

    The moles – Labour-sympathising civil servants – are believed to have played a key role in triggering the lobbying scandal which has allowed Sir Keir's party to construct a narrative of 'Tory sleaze' by leaking details of David Cameron's contacts with Ministers and officials.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482297/Hunt-Labours-No-10-moles-Network-spies-feeding-information-Sir-Keir-Starmers-team.html
    But that is good news, isn't it? Somebody has to keep the Conservative Party honest - or at least try to.

    In the Good Old Days it used to be the Conservative MPs - them and the sense of duty and innate honesty of the Conserative leaders.
    Hmmm. The good old days were not perhaps all they were cracked up to be. I would, for example, like to know where that £5 million Heath left in his will came from.
    I mean the very good old days, Dr Ydoethur. When Conservatives were honest.
    So pre-Reginald Maudling then?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,800
    edited April 2021
    Mr. Sandpit, ah.

    Sorry, I got the thirty-seven Italian Grands Prix of 2020 mixed up :pensive:

    However, my point stands on his good pace in qualifying, and the tyre advantage.

    Edited extra bit: off until after the race.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    CNN: Washington DC's reputation for influential lobbyists is obviously justified. If it wasn't, Trump's anti-swamp rhetoric wouldn't have found such a keen audience. But in reality, for all the money that exists in American politics, the UK trails behind when it comes to stamping down on this type of grubbiness.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Have we done this one yet? I'm losing track.

    https://twitter.com/AVMikhailova/status/1383526585916002311
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,856

    On topic, stupendous tip by @TSE - very well spotted.

    A very likely loser but it feels more like a 8/1 shot to me, so I've gone in at 25/1.

    To be honest not really seeing it. I expect Drakeford to increase his majority and win comfortably despite a good night (following day?) for the Tories in Wales.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,448
    Dura_Ace said:

    Have we done this one yet? I'm losing track.

    https://twitter.com/AVMikhailova/status/1383526585916002311

    Not another AV thread, surely!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IanB2 said:

    CNN: Washington DC's reputation for influential lobbyists is obviously justified. If it wasn't, Trump's anti-swamp rhetoric wouldn't have found such a keen audience. But in reality, for all the money that exists in American politics, the UK trails behind when it comes to stamping down on this type of grubbiness.

    When the people at CNN have writers bloc do they just have a note on the wall saying "say something derogatory about Britain" as a fallback?

    The notion that the UK is behind America when it comes to stamping down on grubbiness is utterly farcical.

    They're not remotely in the same league, in comparison between the two America is more Butch Cassidy and the UK is a toddler with chocolate on his face claiming he hasn't eaten the cake.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    If anyone is watching ridge right now - really interesting to see how flustered Sturgeon becomes at some modestly difficult questions
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,378

    Mark Drakeford looks out of time to me.

    The way he looks, sounds and dresses is at least 40 years out of date; like he's a junior minister that's been plucked out of Wilson's cabinet of 1975 and temporally transported to 2021.

    That is a surprisingly astute and accurate analysis. But for comparison have you seen RT? He would fit into new money gentry of the 1870s.
This discussion has been closed.