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The Greensill/Cameron affair comes as postal vote are about to go out for the May 6th elections – po

SystemSystem Posts: 12,168
edited April 2021 in General
The Greensill/Cameron affair comes as postal vote are about to go out for the May 6th elections – politicalbetting.com

The Greensill/Cameron web of lobbying is growing.Who else do we need to add? pic.twitter.com/dOqQ1ajjLt

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    edited April 2021
    With the success of how they managed COVID and GOT BREXIT DONE the Tories are not just on for a Stella night, heaping the pressure on Starmer, but Labour can now write off the next General Election too. Starmer will be replaced then or before then, what do Labour do, skip a generation to someone we have hardly heard of?

    Meanwhile in the big news story, Daily Star has more on the aliens who have, allegedly, made a deal with Trump.

    Maybe the deal was to have replaced Biden with a robot, Biden does come across as someone losing his faculties at an alarming rate.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    tlg86 said:

    First. Not sure if there’s any polling on this, but I doubt it’s registering to be honest. At most I suspect it’s damaging Cameron’s already damaged reputation.

    There’s obviously an ongoing issue around lobbying. Part of the problem, of course, is that the questionable relationships only reveal themselves as obviously dubious at a later date.

    I think that's spot on.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    The Greensill/Cameron affair world-beating vaccine rollout and easing of restrictions comes as postal vote are about to go out for the May 6th elections...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,448
    edited April 2021
    Good morning everyone. Gym's re-opened and I'll be heading there in an hour. Have to book spaces; can't just walk in, but after having a pint on Monday and Eldest Granddaughter promising a visit at the weekend....... things chez Cole are looking up in the later stages of the pandemic.

    Still no intention of voting Tory, though!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    @rafaelbehr: On Cameron's political afterlife and the parts of British politics that are decay but treated like decor https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/13/britain-free-corruption-decay-david-cameron
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    Scott_xP said:

    @rafaelbehr: On Cameron's political afterlife and the parts of British politics that are decay but treated like decor https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/13/britain-free-corruption-decay-david-cameron

    Blair used to be the most despised former PM. Cameron says "Hold my beer"
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Sandpit said:

    The Greensill/Cameron affair world-beating vaccine rollout and easing of restrictions comes as postal vote are about to go out for the May 6th elections...

    Booked in for Monday but second dose not until July 😢
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,796
    gealbhan said:

    With the success of how they managed COVID and GOT BREXIT DONE the Tories are not just on for a Stella night, heaping the pressure on Starmer, but Labour can now write off the next General Election too. Starmer will be replaced then or before then, what do Labour do, skip a generation to someone we have hardly heard of?

    Meanwhile in the big news story, Daily Star has more on the aliens who have, allegedly, made a deal with Trump.

    Maybe the deal was to have replaced Biden with a robot, Biden does come across as someone losing his faculties at an alarming rate.

    This is a wired post. Biden losing faculties at an alarming rate? True it was an issue during the election but what has happened recently? Success of getting Brexit done? Again it is done, but not to acknowledge issues is bizarre. And how they managed covid is a streach. The big positive is the vaccination programme and being the most recent event will have a big impact and has been impressive. The rest is a biased imagination.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    Today's @UKLabour motion establishing a parliamentary committee into lobbying and Greensill would be binding if it passed, unlike most opposition day debates in Parliament. If govt abstains as usual it goes through so they have to take a position.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    Asked if the Greensill scandal is giving the government a reputation for “sleaze”, ex civil servant Jill Rutter warns: “it’s clocking up a record which may come back to haunt it. It’s a government that doesn’t think it has to play by the rules.” #today
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,796
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    The Greensill/Cameron affair world-beating vaccine rollout and easing of restrictions comes as postal vote are about to go out for the May 6th elections...

    Booked in for Monday but second dose not until July 😢
    Charles are you a young whippersnapper? I don't know why but I had you down as closer to my generation.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kjh said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    The Greensill/Cameron affair world-beating vaccine rollout and easing of restrictions comes as postal vote are about to go out for the May 6th elections...

    Booked in for Monday but second dose not until July 😢
    Charles are you a young whippersnapper? I don't know why but I had you down as closer to my generation.
    When I met @SeanT he commented I was 20 years younger than he expected....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,856

    Good morning everyone. Gym's re-opened and I'll be heading there in an hour. Have to book spaces; can't just walk in, but after having a pint on Monday and Eldest Granddaughter promising a visit at the weekend....... things chez Cole are looking up in the later stages of the pandemic.

    Still no intention of voting Tory, though!

    Strange, have you not had your vaccine yet? Should have been operative by now.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    The Tories were never likely to get 38% in the first place anyway.

    Its worth remembering that in 2017 when 38% was recorded in the Locals, the polls were putting the Tories on 45%.

    The Tories are like-for-like polling down on 2017 so 36% or 37% would be more realistic.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Today's @UKLabour motion establishing a parliamentary committee into lobbying and Greensill would be binding if it passed, unlike most opposition day debates in Parliament. If govt abstains as usual it goes through so they have to take a position.

    Boris will reaffirm the independent enquiry reporting back to him in June and I expect there is an element of this he may be quite enjoying as Cameron and his government are at the heart of this

    Labour will lose and I expect most of the ordinary voters casting their votes will not be influenced by yet another lobbying scandal

    This is a forum for the politically engaged and at times seems to talk to itself, rather than reflect public opinion
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Scott_xP said:

    Today's @UKLabour motion establishing a parliamentary committee into lobbying and Greensill would be binding if it passed, unlike most opposition day debates in Parliament. If govt abstains as usual it goes through so they have to take a position.

    Boris will reaffirm the independent enquiry reporting back to him in June and I expect there is an element of this he may be quite enjoying as Cameron and his government are at the heart of this

    Labour will lose and I expect most of the ordinary voters casting their votes will not be influenced by yet another lobbying scandal

    This is a forum for the politically engaged and at times seems to talk to itself, rather than reflect public opinion
    At times?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,856
    edited April 2021
    What we saw yesterday was an emergency briefing by Nicola that moved a few deckchairs around fairly pointlessly but got her back dominating the news and a variety of "good news" announcements by Boris. The coincidence of this and the issuing of postal votes that Mike notes...isn't. Those in government both north and south of the border are playing fast and loose with any concept of purdah on government announcements and are using Covid as the excuse. It will probably do them good and oppositions are struggling to be heard.

    As for Greensill I doubt 1% will understand it although it does revive the traditional Tory sleaze meme. I very much doubt it is going to have a material impact despite some pretty shabby behaviour by Cameron at least.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    @kateferguson4: Tory MPs are being whipped to vote against Labour’s motion to have a full-blown parliamentary inquiry into lobbying, Rachel Reeves says
  • eekeek Posts: 28,392
    Scott_xP said:

    @kateferguson4: Tory MPs are being whipped to vote against Labour’s motion to have a full-blown parliamentary inquiry into lobbying, Rachel Reeves says

    I actually thought this story would have zero impact (Cameron has gone and you can make him like desperate without trying) and then the Tories do something completely stupid.

    Just let the inquiry kick off but restrict it's remit.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710

    Scott_xP said:

    Today's @UKLabour motion establishing a parliamentary committee into lobbying and Greensill would be binding if it passed, unlike most opposition day debates in Parliament. If govt abstains as usual it goes through so they have to take a position.

    Boris will reaffirm the independent enquiry reporting back to him in June and I expect there is an element of this he may be quite enjoying as Cameron and his government are at the heart of this

    Labour will lose and I expect most of the ordinary voters casting their votes will not be influenced by yet another lobbying scandal

    This is a forum for the politically engaged and at times seems to talk to itself, rather than reflect public opinion
    Oh, I am sure that you are right. The reports conclusions are already written, and the evidence will be made to fit, as per the Sewell report on race.

    Johnson may want to embarrass Cameron but has no intention of stopping wealthy chums from picking the public purse. His sole aim is to remain in power, and the purpose is to enjoy the baubles.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    @DavidL are you expecting the SNP to get a majority?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,595
    DavidL said:

    What we saw yesterday was an emergency briefing by Nicola that moved a few deckchairs around fairly pointlessly but got her back dominating the news and a variety of "good news" announcements by Boris. The coincidence of this and the issuing of postal votes that Mike notes...isn't. Those in government both north and south of the border are playing fast and loose with any concept of purdah on government announcements and are using Covid as the excuse. It will probably do them good and oppositions are struggling to be heard.

    As for Greensill I doubt 1% will understand it although it does revive the traditional Tory sleaze meme. I very much doubt it is going to have a material impact despite some pretty shabby behaviour by Cameron at least.

    It isn't a "scandal" because the shabby behaviour looks to be limited to Cameron and his regime - and not to have any tie into Boris's current regime who "did the right thing". Those who still really, really like Cameron and still vote Conservative are a very small sub-set of the electorate.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,595

    The Tories were never likely to get 38% in the first place anyway.

    Its worth remembering that in 2017 when 38% was recorded in the Locals, the polls were putting the Tories on 45%.

    The Tories are like-for-like polling down on 2017 so 36% or 37% would be more realistic.

    But who is going to fill the void? UKIP/Brexit/Refuk? Nah. LibDems? Maybe a little. Independents? Some. Labour? What possible incentive is there for the politically semi-engaged to go vote Labour on My 6th? Starmer? His team? His policies? Tories will nationally be north of 38%. The voters we are talking to are very happy with us....
  • Scott_xP said:

    @kateferguson4: Tory MPs are being whipped to vote against Labour’s motion to have a full-blown parliamentary inquiry into lobbying, Rachel Reeves says

    You are either naive or just silly to be honest

    Of course they will be whipped

    There is an independent enquiry and labour playing politics requires an equal response
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Scott_xP said:

    @kateferguson4: Tory MPs are being whipped to vote against Labour’s motion to have a full-blown parliamentary inquiry into lobbying, Rachel Reeves says

    You are either naive or just silly to be honest

    Of course they will be whipped

    There is an independent enquiry and labour playing politics requires an equal response
    He's literally just copy and pasting a Tweet.
  • Scott_xP said:

    @kateferguson4: Tory MPs are being whipped to vote against Labour’s motion to have a full-blown parliamentary inquiry into lobbying, Rachel Reeves says

    You are either naive or just silly to be honest

    Of course they will be whipped

    There is an independent enquiry and labour playing politics requires an equal response
    He's literally just copy and pasting a Tweet.
    That is his modus operandi but if you paste a tweet do not be surprised to receive a response
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    The Tories were never likely to get 38% in the first place anyway.

    Its worth remembering that in 2017 when 38% was recorded in the Locals, the polls were putting the Tories on 45%.

    The Tories are like-for-like polling down on 2017 so 36% or 37% would be more realistic.

    But who is going to fill the void? UKIP/Brexit/Refuk? Nah. LibDems? Maybe a little. Independents? Some. Labour? What possible incentive is there for the politically semi-engaged to go vote Labour on My 6th? Starmer? His team? His policies? Tories will nationally be north of 38%. The voters we are talking to are very happy with us....
    The usual mix of "Residents Association", "Independents", Liberal Democrats etc that crop up at pothole elections but get no interest in proper ones.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    DavidL said:

    What we saw yesterday was an emergency briefing by Nicola that moved a few deckchairs around fairly pointlessly but got her back dominating the news and a variety of "good news" announcements by Boris. The coincidence of this and the issuing of postal votes that Mike notes...isn't. Those in government both north and south of the border are playing fast and loose with any concept of purdah on government announcements and are using Covid as the excuse. It will probably do them good and oppositions are struggling to be heard.

    As for Greensill I doubt 1% will understand it although it does revive the traditional Tory sleaze meme. I very much doubt it is going to have a material impact despite some pretty shabby behaviour by Cameron at least.

    It isn't a "scandal" because the shabby behaviour looks to be limited to Cameron and his regime - and not to have any tie into Boris's current regime who "did the right thing". Those who still really, really like Cameron and still vote Conservative are a very small sub-set of the electorate.
    If you still really like Cameron and still vote Conservative, you're going to keep voting Conservative irrespective of what DC gets up to in his retirement from active politics.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827
    I would expect Greensill to have less than 0.5% impact on the forthcoming elections so hardly crucial and closer to negligible.

    Where the combined sleaze factor comes into play electorally is it will amplify the impact when the govt is eventually unpopular.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    It's 3 weeks until election day and I'm still yet to hear from the Lib Dems.

    Their candidate don't seem to have any web presence at all either.

    The party must be in dire straits round here...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,761
    Another day and right on cue we have another scientist talking about need for another lockdowns if there is a variant problem:

    "Rapid spread of coronavirus variants could necessitate the reimposition of lockdown measures, a scientist advising the Government said.

    Professor Peter Openshaw said his fellow scientists were "very concerned" after a cluster of cases of the South African coronavirus variant were found in London."

    Telegraph blog.

    Once again no doubt talking in a "personal capacity".

    I know from my own extended family that these public utterances are just causing undue worry amongst older folk who have been vaccinated.

    Stop it.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827

    Four years after leaving office a former PM was trying to influence some of the current cabinet but failed. Am I summing up this 'scandal' correctly? Is this it?

    I am totally against bribery and corruption if there is any but the fact that lobbying is supposed to be regulated means that it is accepted and legal. I presume when such rules were introduced it could have been banned!

    There is significant corruption around the world that probably would affect and election - vaccine corruption where politicians, their friends or people they want get vaccinated first.

    I can't tell if this is tongue in cheek or not given Cameron did get his vaccination early!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    edited April 2021
    Labour's vote for a Commons inquiry on lobbying will fail today, but discomfort is growing on Tory benches over the Boardman review not going far enough. Sir Bernard Jenkin already on record, telling me: “We also need to address the wider relationship between business and Govt".

    Another senior Tory says they need to halt the revolving door before it toxifies the party in the eyes of the Red Wall again. The MP: “We have a culture where ministers and officials are working out how they’re going to retire while they’re still in office. It has to stop".
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Four years after leaving office a former PM was trying to influence some of the current cabinet but failed. Am I summing up this 'scandal' correctly? Is this it?

    I am totally against bribery and corruption if there is any but the fact that lobbying is supposed to be regulated means that it is accepted and legal. I presume when such rules were introduced it could have been banned!

    There is significant corruption around the world that probably would affect and election - vaccine corruption where politicians, their friends or people they want get vaccinated first.

    The actual details are irrelevant. It just adds to the carrion stench of venality that surrounds the government.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:

    Labour's vote for a Commons inquiry on lobbying will fail today, but discomfort is growing on Tory benches over the Boardman review not going far enough. Sir Bernard Jenkin already on record, telling me: “We also need to address the wider relationship between business and Govt".

    Another senior Tory says they need to halt the revolving door before it toxifies the party in the eyes of the Red Wall again. The MP: “We have a culture where ministers and officials are working out how they’re going to retire while they’re still in office. It has to stop".

    You've been talking to Sir Bernard Jenkin yourself Scott?

    Or are you copying someone else's text without accreditation?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Dominic Cummings was right - the senior Civil Service is rotten and needs a total clearout.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    I know. How DARE Andrew appear in public.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,761
    This is a good analysis by
    @harrytlambert
    : Lab seats vulnerable if it loses Hartlepool

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1382046522460794883

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,201
    kjh said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    The Greensill/Cameron affair world-beating vaccine rollout and easing of restrictions comes as postal vote are about to go out for the May 6th elections...

    Booked in for Monday but second dose not until July 😢
    Charles are you a young whippersnapper? I don't know why but I had you down as closer to my generation.
    Then you'll be old enough to remember the phenomenon of the young fogey...
  • MaffewMaffew Posts: 235

    Another day and right on cue we have another scientist talking about need for another lockdowns if there is a variant problem:

    "Rapid spread of coronavirus variants could necessitate the reimposition of lockdown measures, a scientist advising the Government said.

    Professor Peter Openshaw said his fellow scientists were "very concerned" after a cluster of cases of the South African coronavirus variant were found in London."

    Telegraph blog.

    Once again no doubt talking in a "personal capacity".

    I know from my own extended family that these public utterances are just causing undue worry amongst older folk who have been vaccinated.

    Stop it.

    Not just older folk. Every time I see one of those it makes my stress levels spike massively.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    I drove through the city centre last night and all the makeshift beer gardens and outdoor eating areas were absolutely heaving. Great to see.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000

    I drove through the city centre last night and all the makeshift beer gardens and outdoor eating areas were absolutely heaving. Great to see.

    Nightmare for wheelchair users
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Scott_xP said:

    I drove through the city centre last night and all the makeshift beer gardens and outdoor eating areas were absolutely heaving. Great to see.

    Nightmare for wheelchair users
    It'll be back to normal soon I guess. Nobody "enjoys" eating or drinking out in the freezing cold.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,612
    To put the 38% into context these are what the governing party achieved at local elections:

    1980 40% Con
    1981 38%
    1982 40%
    1983 39%
    1984 38%
    1985 32%
    1986 34%
    1987 38%
    1988 39%
    1989 36%
    1990 33%
    1991 35%
    1992 46%
    1993 31%
    1994 28%
    1995 25%
    1996 29%
    1998 37% Lab
    1999 36%
    2000 30%
    2002 33%
    2003 30%
    2004 26%
    2006 26%
    2007 26%
    2008 24%
    2009 22%
    2011 38% Con
    2012 33%
    2013 26%
    2014 30%
    2016 32%
    2017 39%
    2018 37%
    2019 31%

    From page 64 of report here:

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7529/
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000

    Nobody "enjoys" eating or drinking out in the freezing cold.

    Even in Newcastle :)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    This is a good analysis by
    @harrytlambert
    : Lab seats vulnerable if it loses Hartlepool

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1382046522460794883

    Fascinating. 15 gains by the Tories on this swing, which some like @kinabalu is saying should be considered the 'status quo'.

    If they're right then the status quo going into the next election ought to be a 110 seat majority, not an 80 seat majority.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    Dura_Ace said:

    Four years after leaving office a former PM was trying to influence some of the current cabinet but failed. Am I summing up this 'scandal' correctly? Is this it?

    I am totally against bribery and corruption if there is any but the fact that lobbying is supposed to be regulated means that it is accepted and legal. I presume when such rules were introduced it could have been banned!

    There is significant corruption around the world that probably would affect and election - vaccine corruption where politicians, their friends or people they want get vaccinated first.

    The actual details are irrelevant. It just adds to the carrion stench of venality that surrounds the government.
    But I don't understand - if such a stench were significant and affecting elections then wouldn't the poll ratings be significantly affected too.

    I just cannot think of how I would sum this up to someone down the pub as to why it is an issue. I've got friends who can't stand Boris - who nothing he does can be seen without some sort of either conspiracy level intelligence or incompetence. I've got others who are generally supportive. I can't really see what I am supposed to get upset about. It's not a scandal if something is legal but people think the law should be changed.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    To put the 38% into context these are what the governing party achieved at local elections:

    1980 40% Con
    1981 38%
    1982 40%
    1983 39%
    1984 38%
    1985 32%
    1986 34%
    1987 38%
    1988 39%
    1989 36%
    1990 33%
    1991 35%
    1992 46%
    1993 31%
    1994 28%
    1995 25%
    1996 29%
    1998 37% Lab
    1999 36%
    2000 30%
    2002 33%
    2003 30%
    2004 26%
    2006 26%
    2007 26%
    2008 24%
    2009 22%
    2011 38% Con
    2012 33%
    2013 26%
    2014 30%
    2016 32%
    2017 39%
    2018 37%
    2019 31%

    From page 64 of report here:

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7529/

    Interesting they have 2017 as 39% when the BBC figure is 38%

    So barring general election turnout in 1992, the last time a governing party got 40% was back in 1982.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    edited April 2021
    gealbhan said:

    With the success of how they managed COVID and GOT BREXIT DONE the Tories are not just on for a Stella night, heaping the pressure on Starmer, but Labour can now write off the next General Election too. Starmer will be replaced then or before then, what do Labour do, skip a generation to someone we have hardly heard of?

    Meanwhile in the big news story, Daily Star has more on the aliens who have, allegedly, made a deal with Trump.

    Maybe the deal was to have replaced Biden with a robot, Biden does come across as someone losing his faculties at an alarming rate.

    You are ignoring the fact when the county council seats up this year were last up in 2017 the Tories had an 11% lead, most current polls have the Tories lead on less than that so Labour should actually make gains, at least at county level.

    Given Corbyn survived losing 382 Labour county councillors and control of 7 county councils in 2017 Starmer will certainly survive making Labour gains at county level.

    Given too Labour only got 27% in the 2017 counties and 31% in the 2016 district elections which were when the local seats up this year were last up, even the 34% Yougov has Labour now on would be an improvement (other pollsters have Labour on 36%).

    In fact given the LDs 15% in 2016 and 18% in 2017 and are now polling under 10% they may face the biggest losses, on paper at least, though they tend to do better locally than nationally
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,856

    @DavidL are you expecting the SNP to get a majority?

    Its going to be close. I think (hope) that they will fall just short but their little green helpers will get them over the line once again. I expect the Tories to fall back a bit, possibly to 3rd and Labour to pick up a bit but not necessarily win many more seats.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983
    Oh and me from last night:

    Sound of Metal is excellent. The film is proper film making and amongst others from it Riz deserves the Oscar.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    To put the 38% into context these are what the governing party achieved at local elections:

    1980 40% Con
    1981 38%
    1982 40%
    1983 39%
    1984 38%
    1985 32%
    1986 34%
    1987 38%
    1988 39%
    1989 36%
    1990 33%
    1991 35%
    1992 46%
    1993 31%
    1994 28%
    1995 25%
    1996 29%
    1998 37% Lab
    1999 36%
    2000 30%
    2002 33%
    2003 30%
    2004 26%
    2006 26%
    2007 26%
    2008 24%
    2009 22%
    2011 38% Con
    2012 33%
    2013 26%
    2014 30%
    2016 32%
    2017 39%
    2018 37%
    2019 31%

    From page 64 of report here:

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7529/

    The big difference between now and 2017 is that UKIP are not the force they were. In 2017 Curtice had them on a national projected share of 25%
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    With the success of how they managed COVID and GOT BREXIT DONE the Tories are not just on for a Stella night, heaping the pressure on Starmer, but Labour can now write off the next General Election too. Starmer will be replaced then or before then, what do Labour do, skip a generation to someone we have hardly heard of?

    Meanwhile in the big news story, Daily Star has more on the aliens who have, allegedly, made a deal with Trump.

    Maybe the deal was to have replaced Biden with a robot, Biden does come across as someone losing his faculties at an alarming rate.

    You are ignoring the fact when the county council seats up this year were last up in 2017 the Tories had an 11% lead, most current polls have the Tories lead on less than that so Labour should actually make gains, at least at county level.

    Given Corbyn survived losing 382 Labour county councillors and control of 7 county councils in 2017 Starmer will certainly survive making Labour gains at county level.

    Given too Labour only got 27% in the 2017 counties and 31% in the 2016 district elections which were when the local seats up this year were last up, even the 34% Yougov has Labour now on would be an improvement (other pollsters have Labour on 36%).

    In fact given the LDs 15% in 2016 and 18% in 2017 and are now polling under 10% they may face the biggest losses, on paper at least, though they tend to do better locally than nationally
    @HYUFD makes good points. He looks at data
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,420
    edited April 2021


    This is a forum for the politically engaged and at times seems to talk to itself, rather than reflect public opinion.

    Obviously people express their own opinion instead of other people's. Quite why you criticise them for that is beyond me.

    Insofar as our discussions have any point, it might be to anticipate how public opinion could change in the future - and thereby affect betting outcomes. Inevitably when considering future hypotheticals there is the danger of wishful thinking, but there are some posters who can tell the difference.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,221
    edited April 2021
    FPT:
    MattW said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This - https://twitter.com/gabriel_pogrund/status/1381978831809081350?s=21 - the civil service head of procurement joining Greensill while still a civil servant

    MattW said:

    Cookie said:

    A postscript to the squirrel story earlier to turn something we could all agree was a sad but possibly unavoidable situation into something half of us can get good and cross about: apparently the requirement to euthanise the squirrels was brought in by the EU in 2019, to the great disappointment of the RSPCA. Apparently.

    That is bunk - sorry.

    Grey Squirrels are subject to Section 14 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act as originally passed in *1981* as animals for which it is an offence to release into the wild.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/69/section/14/enacted

    They are listed in Schedule 9.

    If rescue charities have been releasing them - if they have - is a scandal.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/69/schedule/9/enacted

    It's as stupid as the RSPCA releasing foxes, though that is I think legal.

    If I am wrong anyone, please do correct me.
    The legislation was introduced, I believe, in an attempt to save the red squirrels, which were seen as a more national breed. They're now extremely rare and it makes sense to be decent to all squirrels, which in my view give much more pleasure to watch than almost any other natural species.

    It's not a view shared by everyone, I admit. I remember asking in a pet shop if they have some bird-proof squirrel-feeders rather than the other way round, and getting a very quizzical look. :)
    A total menace to gardeners. Every year they steal my bulbs. Or try to. We have ongoing battles every autumn trying to outwit each other.
    Decent cat or decent air rifle, perhaps.
    Thinking further, there are actually quite a lot of Reds in the Lakes:

    image

    There are also quite a lot of places now where Greys are being culled to keep them down.

  • HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    With the success of how they managed COVID and GOT BREXIT DONE the Tories are not just on for a Stella night, heaping the pressure on Starmer, but Labour can now write off the next General Election too. Starmer will be replaced then or before then, what do Labour do, skip a generation to someone we have hardly heard of?

    Meanwhile in the big news story, Daily Star has more on the aliens who have, allegedly, made a deal with Trump.

    Maybe the deal was to have replaced Biden with a robot, Biden does come across as someone losing his faculties at an alarming rate.

    You are ignoring the fact when the county council seats up this year were last up in 2017 the Tories had an 11% lead, most current polls have the Tories lead on less than that so Labour should actually make gains, at least at county level.

    Given Corbyn survived losing 382 Labour county councillors and control of 7 county councils in 2017 Starmer will certainly survive making Labour gains at county level.

    Given too Labour only got 27% in the 2017 counties and 31% in the 2016 district elections which were when the local seats up this year were last up, even the 34% Yougov has Labour now on would be an improvement (other pollsters have Labour on 36%).

    In fact given the LDs 15% in 2016 and 18% in 2017 and are now polling under 10% they may face the biggest losses, on paper at least, though they tend to do better locally than nationally
    Irrespective of this I expect Starmer to survive as there is simply nobody else, not even on the horizon
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329

    Four years after leaving office a former PM was trying to influence some of the current cabinet but failed. Am I summing up this 'scandal' correctly? Is this it?

    I am totally against bribery and corruption if there is any but the fact that lobbying is supposed to be regulated means that it is accepted and legal. I presume when such rules were introduced it could have been banned!

    There is significant corruption around the world that probably would affect and election - vaccine corruption where politicians, their friends or people they want get vaccinated first.

    I can't tell if this is tongue in cheek or not given Cameron did get his vaccination early!
    Thought I'd missed another 'scandal'. So I googled and Cameron tweeted pictures of the event thanking the NHS and encouraging others to get vaccinated. Again it doesn't have the smell of corruption to me.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    edited April 2021
    Horrible feeling we’re being mentally prepared for many more months of restrictions

    Endless talk of variants. Safferbug in Clapham. Supervariant in Brazil. Scary new variant in India (which is surging into a terrifying second wave)

    Meanwhile vaccines are suddenly less important... and we must expect new waves and 50,000 deaths. Hmm

    Cui bono? I don’t believe the government wants us locked down forever; I do believe there is a group of scientists who are properly scared, and they are spooking the politicians

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585

    This is a good analysis by
    @harrytlambert
    : Lab seats vulnerable if it loses Hartlepool

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1382046522460794883

    Fascinating. 15 gains by the Tories on this swing, which some like @kinabalu is saying should be considered the 'status quo'.

    If they're right then the status quo going into the next election ought to be a 110 seat majority, not an 80 seat majority.
    boundary changes probably add another 20
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,378

    Scott_xP said:

    @kateferguson4: Tory MPs are being whipped to vote against Labour’s motion to have a full-blown parliamentary inquiry into lobbying, Rachel Reeves says

    You are either naive or just silly to be honest

    Of course they will be whipped

    There is an independent enquiry and labour playing politics requires an equal response
    Labour playing politics? They are the Opposition. We have seen precious little opposition from them since 2016, and you are by implication whining that they should behave and leave your boys alone

    Although Cameron's name is to the fore there would appear to be the fingerprints of several serving Cabinet Ministers all over this unseemly mess.

    But then, Boris will be Boris, and his friends can be a bit lairy too. Besides which the voters love them all anyway, and just want to go to the pub. So why the fuss?.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    With the success of how they managed COVID and GOT BREXIT DONE the Tories are not just on for a Stella night, heaping the pressure on Starmer, but Labour can now write off the next General Election too. Starmer will be replaced then or before then, what do Labour do, skip a generation to someone we have hardly heard of?

    Meanwhile in the big news story, Daily Star has more on the aliens who have, allegedly, made a deal with Trump.

    Maybe the deal was to have replaced Biden with a robot, Biden does come across as someone losing his faculties at an alarming rate.

    You are ignoring the fact when the county council seats up this year were last up in 2017 the Tories had an 11% lead, most current polls have the Tories lead on less than that so Labour should actually make gains, at least at county level.

    Given Corbyn survived losing 382 Labour county councillors and control of 7 county councils in 2017 Starmer will certainly survive making Labour gains at county level.

    Given too Labour only got 27% in the 2017 counties and 31% in the 2016 district elections which were when the local seats up this year were last up, even the 34% Yougov has Labour now on would be an improvement (other pollsters have Labour on 36%).

    In fact given the LDs 15% in 2016 and 18% in 2017 and are now polling under 10% they may face the biggest losses, on paper at least, though they tend to do better locally than nationally
    Irrespective of this I expect Starmer to survive as there is simply nobody else, not even on the horizon
    What do you mean "irrespective of this"? @HY is saying that Starmer will survive given historic vote shares and performance.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098

    This is a good analysis by
    @harrytlambert
    : Lab seats vulnerable if it loses Hartlepool

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1382046522460794883

    Fascinating. 15 gains by the Tories on this swing, which some like @kinabalu is saying should be considered the 'status quo'.

    If they're right then the status quo going into the next election ought to be a 110 seat majority, not an 80 seat majority.
    Slightly misleading given Hartlepool had the highest Brexit Party vote in the UK in 2019 and you would expect a lot of BXP votes to now go Tory
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    With the success of how they managed COVID and GOT BREXIT DONE the Tories are not just on for a Stella night, heaping the pressure on Starmer, but Labour can now write off the next General Election too. Starmer will be replaced then or before then, what do Labour do, skip a generation to someone we have hardly heard of?

    Meanwhile in the big news story, Daily Star has more on the aliens who have, allegedly, made a deal with Trump.

    Maybe the deal was to have replaced Biden with a robot, Biden does come across as someone losing his faculties at an alarming rate.

    You are ignoring the fact when the county council seats up this year were last up in 2017 the Tories had an 11% lead, most current polls have the Tories lead on less than that so Labour should actually make gains, at least at county level.

    Given Corbyn survived losing 382 Labour county councillors and control of 7 county councils in 2017 Starmer will certainly survive making Labour gains at county level.

    Given too Labour only got 27% in the 2017 counties and 31% in the 2016 district elections which were when the local seats up this year were last up, even the 34% Yougov has Labour now on would be an improvement (other pollsters have Labour on 36%).

    In fact given the LDs 15% in 2016 and 18% in 2017 and are now polling under 10% they may face the biggest losses, on paper at least, though they tend to do better locally than nationally
    @HYUFD makes good points. He looks at data
    Although I notice that last night he also discussed how the process for Scotland becoming independent could resemble the American Civil War.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,612

    To put the 38% into context these are what the governing party achieved at local elections:

    1980 40% Con
    1981 38%
    1982 40%
    1983 39%
    1984 38%
    1985 32%
    1986 34%
    1987 38%
    1988 39%
    1989 36%
    1990 33%
    1991 35%
    1992 46%
    1993 31%
    1994 28%
    1995 25%
    1996 29%
    1998 37% Lab
    1999 36%
    2000 30%
    2002 33%
    2003 30%
    2004 26%
    2006 26%
    2007 26%
    2008 24%
    2009 22%
    2011 38% Con
    2012 33%
    2013 26%
    2014 30%
    2016 32%
    2017 39%
    2018 37%
    2019 31%

    From page 64 of report here:

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7529/

    The big difference between now and 2017 is that UKIP are not the force they were. In 2017 Curtice had them on a national projected share of 25%
    You're misremembering Mike, UKIP barely featured after the 2016 Referendum and in 2017 had exactly 1 (one) councillor elected and lost 145:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_local_elections

    In 2017 UKIP got 4% of the vote in the local elections.

    In 2016 UKIP got 12% of the vote in the local elections.

    The difference being roughly the increase in the Conservative vote from 2016 to 2017.

    So there should be scope for the Conservatives to make gains from 2016 but not from 2017.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    edited April 2021
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    With the success of how they managed COVID and GOT BREXIT DONE the Tories are not just on for a Stella night, heaping the pressure on Starmer, but Labour can now write off the next General Election too. Starmer will be replaced then or before then, what do Labour do, skip a generation to someone we have hardly heard of?

    Meanwhile in the big news story, Daily Star has more on the aliens who have, allegedly, made a deal with Trump.

    Maybe the deal was to have replaced Biden with a robot, Biden does come across as someone losing his faculties at an alarming rate.

    You are ignoring the fact when the county council seats up this year were last up in 2017 the Tories had an 11% lead, most current polls have the Tories lead on less than that so Labour should actually make gains, at least at county level.

    Given Corbyn survived losing 382 Labour county councillors and control of 7 county councils in 2017 Starmer will certainly survive making Labour gains at county level.

    Given too Labour only got 27% in the 2017 counties and 31% in the 2016 district elections which were when the local seats up this year were last up, even the 34% Yougov has Labour now on would be an improvement (other pollsters have Labour on 36%).

    In fact given the LDs 15% in 2016 and 18% in 2017 and are now polling under 10% they may face the biggest losses, on paper at least, though they tend to do better locally than nationally
    @HYUFD makes good points. He looks at data
    Although I notice that last night he also discussed how the process for Scotland becoming independent could resemble the American Civil War.
    Out of context, I was responding to a Black Rook point which was that no US states could ever secede from the Union
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited April 2021
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    With the success of how they managed COVID and GOT BREXIT DONE the Tories are not just on for a Stella night, heaping the pressure on Starmer, but Labour can now write off the next General Election too. Starmer will be replaced then or before then, what do Labour do, skip a generation to someone we have hardly heard of?

    Meanwhile in the big news story, Daily Star has more on the aliens who have, allegedly, made a deal with Trump.

    Maybe the deal was to have replaced Biden with a robot, Biden does come across as someone losing his faculties at an alarming rate.

    You are ignoring the fact when the county council seats up this year were last up in 2017 the Tories had an 11% lead, most current polls have the Tories lead on less than that so Labour should actually make gains, at least at county level.

    Given Corbyn survived losing 382 Labour county councillors and control of 7 county councils in 2017 Starmer will certainly survive making Labour gains at county level.

    Given too Labour only got 27% in the 2017 counties and 31% in the 2016 district elections which were when the local seats up this year were last up, even the 34% Yougov has Labour now on would be an improvement (other pollsters have Labour on 36%).

    In fact given the LDs 15% in 2016 and 18% in 2017 and are now polling under 10% they may face the biggest losses, on paper at least, though they tend to do better locally than nationally
    @HYUFD makes good points. He looks at data
    Although I notice that last night he also discussed how the process for Scotland becoming independent could resemble the American Civil War.
    Out of context, I was responding to a Black Rook point which was that no US states could ever secede from the Union
    Well, yes, and in practice he was right. There is an urban myth that Texas - which, uniquely, was an independent republic when it acceded as a State - has a get out clause, but in practice there is no mechanism for a state to secede.

    I’m just thinking that given recent comments on your part where you talk about sending all our remaining soldiers and tanks to Scotland to hold it by force, you should be wary of such parallels.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,378

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    With the success of how they managed COVID and GOT BREXIT DONE the Tories are not just on for a Stella night, heaping the pressure on Starmer, but Labour can now write off the next General Election too. Starmer will be replaced then or before then, what do Labour do, skip a generation to someone we have hardly heard of?

    Meanwhile in the big news story, Daily Star has more on the aliens who have, allegedly, made a deal with Trump.

    Maybe the deal was to have replaced Biden with a robot, Biden does come across as someone losing his faculties at an alarming rate.

    You are ignoring the fact when the county council seats up this year were last up in 2017 the Tories had an 11% lead, most current polls have the Tories lead on less than that so Labour should actually make gains, at least at county level.

    Given Corbyn survived losing 382 Labour county councillors and control of 7 county councils in 2017 Starmer will certainly survive making Labour gains at county level.

    Given too Labour only got 27% in the 2017 counties and 31% in the 2016 district elections which were when the local seats up this year were last up, even the 34% Yougov has Labour now on would be an improvement (other pollsters have Labour on 36%).

    In fact given the LDs 15% in 2016 and 18% in 2017 and are now polling under 10% they may face the biggest losses, on paper at least, though they tend to do better locally than nationally
    Irrespective of this I expect Starmer to survive as there is simply nobody else, not even on the horizon
    Indeed Labour, nor any other opposition party have anyone of any substance waiting in the wings, whereas we in the Conservative Party have political Titans like Gove, Williamson, Jenrick, Raab and Patel to pass the baton onto.

    A confident future is guaranteed.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,221
    edited April 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    Today's @UKLabour motion establishing a parliamentary committee into lobbying and Greensill would be binding if it passed, unlike most opposition day debates in Parliament. If govt abstains as usual it goes through so they have to take a position.

    It seems to that the Opposition Proposal, and the Govt Actions, are both off-beam.

    Lobby is far wider in scope than paid lobbying businesses and ex-Ministers moneygrubbing.

    For example, the likes of Oxfam have in house lobbyists, and an APPG can be purchased for chump-change if all else has failed.

    The scope is wrong. Ironically one group that need to be included are the members of the "Alliance for Lobbying Transparency".

    https://commonsbusiness.parliament.uk/document/46725/html#_idTextAnchor004
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,601
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    With the success of how they managed COVID and GOT BREXIT DONE the Tories are not just on for a Stella night, heaping the pressure on Starmer, but Labour can now write off the next General Election too. Starmer will be replaced then or before then, what do Labour do, skip a generation to someone we have hardly heard of?

    Meanwhile in the big news story, Daily Star has more on the aliens who have, allegedly, made a deal with Trump.

    Maybe the deal was to have replaced Biden with a robot, Biden does come across as someone losing his faculties at an alarming rate.

    You are ignoring the fact when the county council seats up this year were last up in 2017 the Tories had an 11% lead, most current polls have the Tories lead on less than that so Labour should actually make gains, at least at county level.

    Given Corbyn survived losing 382 Labour county councillors and control of 7 county councils in 2017 Starmer will certainly survive making Labour gains at county level.

    Given too Labour only got 27% in the 2017 counties and 31% in the 2016 district elections which were when the local seats up this year were last up, even the 34% Yougov has Labour now on would be an improvement (other pollsters have Labour on 36%).

    In fact given the LDs 15% in 2016 and 18% in 2017 and are now polling under 10% they may face the biggest losses, on paper at least, though they tend to do better locally than nationally
    @HYUFD makes good points. He looks at data
    Although I notice that last night he also discussed how the process for Scotland becoming independent could resemble the American Civil War.
    @HYUFD wears two hats.

    When he wears his Jekyll hat, he is data driven and really very sensible and worth following.
    When he wears his HYde hat, he just lets rip with his fantasies. He's still worth following for the entertainment value.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,612

    To put the 38% into context these are what the governing party achieved at local elections:

    1980 40% Con
    1981 38%
    1982 40%
    1983 39%
    1984 38%
    1985 32%
    1986 34%
    1987 38%
    1988 39%
    1989 36%
    1990 33%
    1991 35%
    1992 46%
    1993 31%
    1994 28%
    1995 25%
    1996 29%
    1998 37% Lab
    1999 36%
    2000 30%
    2002 33%
    2003 30%
    2004 26%
    2006 26%
    2007 26%
    2008 24%
    2009 22%
    2011 38% Con
    2012 33%
    2013 26%
    2014 30%
    2016 32%
    2017 39%
    2018 37%
    2019 31%

    From page 64 of report here:

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7529/

    Interesting they have 2017 as 39% when the BBC figure is 38%

    So barring general election turnout in 1992, the last time a governing party got 40% was back in 1982.
    The BBC numbers are a quick and rough estimate calculated on the night.

    The HoC numbers are calculated by Rallings and Thrasher are calculated afterwards when all the data is available.

    The 1992 local elections took place a month after the general election while the opposition parties were demoralised.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    Early availability of first vaccination for 45-49 year olds a bit sparse at the moment, nearest centres showing for my wife are in outer Leeds, 10 miles away. Given her navigation anxiety and need to go a second time, still holding on a little to keep an eye out for something closer. Just 3 available locations in the whole of Greater Manchester at present (also in our closest list). Am sure it will improve quite quickly or we'll get a more local invite from the CCG/doctors', but a bit frustrating, especially Mrs Rata thinks all services should be optimally designed just for her and has got her shouty trousers on about it all.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    With the success of how they managed COVID and GOT BREXIT DONE the Tories are not just on for a Stella night, heaping the pressure on Starmer, but Labour can now write off the next General Election too. Starmer will be replaced then or before then, what do Labour do, skip a generation to someone we have hardly heard of?

    Meanwhile in the big news story, Daily Star has more on the aliens who have, allegedly, made a deal with Trump.

    Maybe the deal was to have replaced Biden with a robot, Biden does come across as someone losing his faculties at an alarming rate.

    You are ignoring the fact when the county council seats up this year were last up in 2017 the Tories had an 11% lead, most current polls have the Tories lead on less than that so Labour should actually make gains, at least at county level.

    Given Corbyn survived losing 382 Labour county councillors and control of 7 county councils in 2017 Starmer will certainly survive making Labour gains at county level.

    Given too Labour only got 27% in the 2017 counties and 31% in the 2016 district elections which were when the local seats up this year were last up, even the 34% Yougov has Labour now on would be an improvement (other pollsters have Labour on 36%).

    In fact given the LDs 15% in 2016 and 18% in 2017 and are now polling under 10% they may face the biggest losses, on paper at least, though they tend to do better locally than nationally
    @HYUFD makes good points. He looks at data
    Although I notice that last night he also discussed how the process for Scotland becoming independent could resemble the American Civil War.
    @HYUFD wears two hats.

    When he wears his Jekyll hat, he is data driven and really very sensible and worth following.
    When he wears his HYde hat, he just lets rip with his fantasies. He's still worth following for the entertainment value.
    When you wargame Scottish indy, there is a plausible route to a Catalan style outcome of botched UDI and some cracked heads. Tanks less likely
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Leon said:

    Horrible feeling we’re being mentally prepared for many more months of restrictions

    Endless talk of variants. Safferbug in Clapham. Supervariant in Brazil. Scary new variant in India (which is surging into a terrifying second wave)

    Meanwhile vaccines are suddenly less important... and we must expect new waves and 50,000 deaths. Hmm

    Cui bono? I don’t believe the government wants us locked down forever; I do believe there is a group of scientists who are properly scared, and they are spooking the politicians

    One answer we don't know is how much the Government, and other Governments, really believe about the causes of Covid. If they believe - despite public commentary - that this thing was actually manufactured in a Chinese lab, and not a natural outbreak, then you can see why they might be a tad concerned.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,612
    Leon said:

    Horrible feeling we’re being mentally prepared for many more months of restrictions

    Endless talk of variants. Safferbug in Clapham. Supervariant in Brazil. Scary new variant in India (which is surging into a terrifying second wave)

    Meanwhile vaccines are suddenly less important... and we must expect new waves and 50,000 deaths. Hmm

    Cui bono? I don’t believe the government wants us locked down forever; I do believe there is a group of scientists who are properly scared, and they are spooking the politicians

    But nobody is scared enough to have proper border control.

    It seems that the only control they want is over what British people do in Britain.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,428
    Leon said:

    Horrible feeling we’re being mentally prepared for many more months of restrictions

    Endless talk of variants. Safferbug in Clapham. Supervariant in Brazil. Scary new variant in India (which is surging into a terrifying second wave)

    Meanwhile vaccines are suddenly less important... and we must expect new waves and 50,000 deaths. Hmm

    Cui bono? I don’t believe the government wants us locked down forever; I do believe there is a group of scientists who are properly scared, and they are spooking the politicians

    I think more likely the press are looking for stories to sell papers, they do love a doom story.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    edited April 2021
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    With the success of how they managed COVID and GOT BREXIT DONE the Tories are not just on for a Stella night, heaping the pressure on Starmer, but Labour can now write off the next General Election too. Starmer will be replaced then or before then, what do Labour do, skip a generation to someone we have hardly heard of?

    Meanwhile in the big news story, Daily Star has more on the aliens who have, allegedly, made a deal with Trump.

    Maybe the deal was to have replaced Biden with a robot, Biden does come across as someone losing his faculties at an alarming rate.

    You are ignoring the fact when the county council seats up this year were last up in 2017 the Tories had an 11% lead, most current polls have the Tories lead on less than that so Labour should actually make gains, at least at county level.

    Given Corbyn survived losing 382 Labour county councillors and control of 7 county councils in 2017 Starmer will certainly survive making Labour gains at county level.

    Given too Labour only got 27% in the 2017 counties and 31% in the 2016 district elections which were when the local seats up this year were last up, even the 34% Yougov has Labour now on would be an improvement (other pollsters have Labour on 36%).

    In fact given the LDs 15% in 2016 and 18% in 2017 and are now polling under 10% they may face the biggest losses, on paper at least, though they tend to do better locally than nationally
    @HYUFD makes good points. He looks at data
    Although I notice that last night he also discussed how the process for Scotland becoming independent could resemble the American Civil War.
    Out of context, I was responding to a Black Rook point which was that no US states could ever secede from the Union
    Well, yes, and in practice he was right. There is an urban myth that Texas - which, uniquely, was an independent republic when it acceded as a State - has a get out clause, but in practice there is no mechanism for a state to secede.

    I’m just thinking that given recent comments on your part where you talk about sending all our remaining soldiers and tanks to Scotland to hold it by force, you should be wary of such parallels.
    The US fought a civil war to keep the southern states from seceding, that is the point.

    If states or nations have the will to break away from the Union the Federal government equally has to have the will to stop that, constitutions alone would not be enough.

    However that does not have to be by force, as I also said the carrot like the devomax Canada gave Quebec could also be used
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,238
    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    With the success of how they managed COVID and GOT BREXIT DONE the Tories are not just on for a Stella night, heaping the pressure on Starmer, but Labour can now write off the next General Election too. Starmer will be replaced then or before then, what do Labour do, skip a generation to someone we have hardly heard of?

    Meanwhile in the big news story, Daily Star has more on the aliens who have, allegedly, made a deal with Trump.

    Maybe the deal was to have replaced Biden with a robot, Biden does come across as someone losing his faculties at an alarming rate.

    You are ignoring the fact when the county council seats up this year were last up in 2017 the Tories had an 11% lead, most current polls have the Tories lead on less than that so Labour should actually make gains, at least at county level.

    Given Corbyn survived losing 382 Labour county councillors and control of 7 county councils in 2017 Starmer will certainly survive making Labour gains at county level.

    Given too Labour only got 27% in the 2017 counties and 31% in the 2016 district elections which were when the local seats up this year were last up, even the 34% Yougov has Labour now on would be an improvement (other pollsters have Labour on 36%).

    In fact given the LDs 15% in 2016 and 18% in 2017 and are now polling under 10% they may face the biggest losses, on paper at least, though they tend to do better locally than nationally
    @HYUFD makes good points. He looks at data
    Although I notice that last night he also discussed how the process for Scotland becoming independent could resemble the American Civil War.
    @HYUFD wears two hats.

    When he wears his Jekyll hat, he is data driven and really very sensible and worth following.
    When he wears his HYde hat, he just lets rip with his fantasies. He's still worth following for the entertainment value.
    The other admirable thing about @HYUFD is that, unlike a lot of right-of-centre posters here, he doesn't assume that 2023/4 and (probably) 2028/9 are in the bag for BoJo and the Conservatives.

    One of the differences between past or current practitioners and keyboard warriors, I suspect. Knowing to fear the power of trivial events (dear boy).
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,761
    edited April 2021
    Leon said:

    Horrible feeling we’re being mentally prepared for many more months of restrictions

    Endless talk of variants. Safferbug in Clapham. Supervariant in Brazil. Scary new variant in India (which is surging into a terrifying second wave)

    Meanwhile vaccines are suddenly less important... and we must expect new waves and 50,000 deaths. Hmm

    Cui bono? I don’t believe the government wants us locked down forever; I do believe there is a group of scientists who are properly scared, and they are spooking the politicians

    At some point it seems to me politicians are going to have to say 'no' to the science advisors. Enough is enough. You say we must learn to live with it as an endemic disease, so we are going to do just that.

    We cannot afford, mentally or economically, another three month national full lockdown next winter. In the very worse case we should advise the very vulnerable to lockdown and the rest get on with life including schools remaining open.

    I fear though we are already being soften up for one.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,428
    rcs1000 said:

    Another day and right on cue we have another scientist talking about need for another lockdowns if there is a variant problem:

    "Rapid spread of coronavirus variants could necessitate the reimposition of lockdown measures, a scientist advising the Government said.

    Professor Peter Openshaw said his fellow scientists were "very concerned" after a cluster of cases of the South African coronavirus variant were found in London."

    Telegraph blog.

    Once again no doubt talking in a "personal capacity".

    I know from my own extended family that these public utterances are just causing undue worry amongst older folk who have been vaccinated.

    Stop it.

    The problem is that "panic" garners clicks and shares and discussion like this.

    Last week there were two stories:

    (1) Pfizer announced that, based on long term trial data, it's vaccine was 90+% effective against the SA variant. (As in there was a 10- or 20-1 ratio between the number of people in the placebo and the trial group that ended up with a case of SA Covid.) This is, I think you will agree, excellent news.

    (2) An Israeli study noted that of the - extremely small number of people in hospital with Covid - more of them had SA variant CV19 than other variants. The study basically said this suggested that vaccine was less effective against the variant. Two words from this report ("break through") were then taken to suggest Pfizer was somehow innefective against SA variant Covid.

    The second - panic filled and largely inaccurate - story got all the headlines, while the first was basically ignored.
    Indeed one interpretation of the latter is that the sa variant is the main one in circulation. Don’t know if true, but certainly possible.
    What worries me more is the drift away from avoiding hospitalisation and death, to a more zero Covid approach. If the vaccines meant no one needed hospital (and ignoring long Covid for the sake of brevity) then I wouldn’t care if we all caught Covid in any given year. And there would be no need for any other measures. Yet I sense some would now to head for elimination by the back door.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098

    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    With the success of how they managed COVID and GOT BREXIT DONE the Tories are not just on for a Stella night, heaping the pressure on Starmer, but Labour can now write off the next General Election too. Starmer will be replaced then or before then, what do Labour do, skip a generation to someone we have hardly heard of?

    Meanwhile in the big news story, Daily Star has more on the aliens who have, allegedly, made a deal with Trump.

    Maybe the deal was to have replaced Biden with a robot, Biden does come across as someone losing his faculties at an alarming rate.

    You are ignoring the fact when the county council seats up this year were last up in 2017 the Tories had an 11% lead, most current polls have the Tories lead on less than that so Labour should actually make gains, at least at county level.

    Given Corbyn survived losing 382 Labour county councillors and control of 7 county councils in 2017 Starmer will certainly survive making Labour gains at county level.

    Given too Labour only got 27% in the 2017 counties and 31% in the 2016 district elections which were when the local seats up this year were last up, even the 34% Yougov has Labour now on would be an improvement (other pollsters have Labour on 36%).

    In fact given the LDs 15% in 2016 and 18% in 2017 and are now polling under 10% they may face the biggest losses, on paper at least, though they tend to do better locally than nationally
    @HYUFD makes good points. He looks at data
    Although I notice that last night he also discussed how the process for Scotland becoming independent could resemble the American Civil War.
    @HYUFD wears two hats.

    When he wears his Jekyll hat, he is data driven and really very sensible and worth following.
    When he wears his HYde hat, he just lets rip with his fantasies. He's still worth following for the entertainment value.
    The other admirable thing about @HYUFD is that, unlike a lot of right-of-centre posters here, he doesn't assume that 2023/4 and (probably) 2028/9 are in the bag for BoJo and the Conservatives.

    One of the differences between past or current practitioners and keyboard warriors, I suspect. Knowing to fear the power of trivial events (dear boy).
    Yes it is dangerous for Tories to be complacent, there is no great love for Starmer but he does not repel swing voters like Corbyn did either, so if things go bad economically before 2024 we would have a problem
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Horrible feeling we’re being mentally prepared for many more months of restrictions

    Endless talk of variants. Safferbug in Clapham. Supervariant in Brazil. Scary new variant in India (which is surging into a terrifying second wave)

    Meanwhile vaccines are suddenly less important... and we must expect new waves and 50,000 deaths. Hmm

    Cui bono? I don’t believe the government wants us locked down forever; I do believe there is a group of scientists who are properly scared, and they are spooking the politicians

    One answer we don't know is how much the Government, and other Governments, really believe about the causes of Covid. If they believe - despite public commentary - that this thing was actually manufactured in a Chinese lab, and not a natural outbreak, then you can see why they might be a tad concerned.
    The likeliest explanation is an accidental leak from that lab. I’ve not seen any convincing evidence, however, that the virus has been genetically altered, manufactured or ‘weaponised’. It’s just a bloody nasty virus, from a bat - exactly the type of virus being studied at the Wuhan Institute of Virology
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited April 2021
    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Horrible feeling we’re being mentally prepared for many more months of restrictions

    Endless talk of variants. Safferbug in Clapham. Supervariant in Brazil. Scary new variant in India (which is surging into a terrifying second wave)

    Meanwhile vaccines are suddenly less important... and we must expect new waves and 50,000 deaths. Hmm

    Cui bono? I don’t believe the government wants us locked down forever; I do believe there is a group of scientists who are properly scared, and they are spooking the politicians

    One answer we don't know is how much the Government, and other Governments, really believe about the causes of Covid. If they believe - despite public commentary - that this thing was actually manufactured in a Chinese lab, and not a natural outbreak, then you can see why they might be a tad concerned.
    Really? I would personally have been less concerned, as it would probably be more stable than a naturally mutating virus.

    Unless you think the Chinese would try and release another one that would evade the vaccines. But I don’t think even Xi would be so stupid as to hope to get away with that twice.

    I don’t think it was manufactured in a lab, though. It’s doing exactly what China doesn’t want it to do - killing off the elderly in the west and leaving the younger economic producers untouched. An attempt to extend their power would have been the other way around.

    If it had genuinely rampaged through China killing more than 350,000, then I might have wondered if it was a rather drastic attempted solution to their demographic problem. But as it didn’t, and as it seems to have taken them by surprise as well given their confused and incoherent response, I’m thinking it’s unlikely.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    This is a good analysis by
    @harrytlambert
    : Lab seats vulnerable if it loses Hartlepool

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1382046522460794883

    Fascinating. 15 gains by the Tories on this swing, which some like @kinabalu is saying should be considered the 'status quo'.

    If they're right then the status quo going into the next election ought to be a 110 seat majority, not an 80 seat majority.
    I think Labour is heading towards the position of the SPD in Germany and set to head into stagnation. Cultural values are probably the biggest driver of votes and the Conservatives have the, mmm, cultural conservative (ex-Muslim / Black African) to themselves. Add in economically well off types who don't really care about Brexit and / or sh1t scared of the culture wars coming to the UK, and that is a majority for decades to come. The only thing that has stopped Labour imploding is the Greens are absolutely useless at turning themselves into a national party. If they bucked up in terms of organisation, they would be in a good position to emulate the Greens in Germany and take support from Labour. At that point, you do wonder if the Muslim voters in particular start considering setting up their own party.
  • To put the 38% into context these are what the governing party achieved at local elections:

    1980 40% Con
    1981 38%
    1982 40%
    1983 39%
    1984 38%
    1985 32%
    1986 34%
    1987 38%
    1988 39%
    1989 36%
    1990 33%
    1991 35%
    1992 46%
    1993 31%
    1994 28%
    1995 25%
    1996 29%
    1998 37% Lab
    1999 36%
    2000 30%
    2002 33%
    2003 30%
    2004 26%
    2006 26%
    2007 26%
    2008 24%
    2009 22%
    2011 38% Con
    2012 33%
    2013 26%
    2014 30%
    2016 32%
    2017 39%
    2018 37%
    2019 31%

    From page 64 of report here:

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7529/

    Interesting they have 2017 as 39% when the BBC figure is 38%

    So barring general election turnout in 1992, the last time a governing party got 40% was back in 1982.
    Fake news, the 1992 locals did NOT take place on the same day as the 1992 general election.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    Horrible feeling we’re being mentally prepared for many more months of restrictions

    Endless talk of variants. Safferbug in Clapham. Supervariant in Brazil. Scary new variant in India (which is surging into a terrifying second wave)

    Meanwhile vaccines are suddenly less important... and we must expect new waves and 50,000 deaths. Hmm

    Cui bono? I don’t believe the government wants us locked down forever; I do believe there is a group of scientists who are properly scared, and they are spooking the politicians

    At some point it seems to me politicians are going to have to say 'no' to the science advisors. Enough is enough. You say we must learn to live with it as an endemic disease, so we are going to do just that.

    We cannot afford, mentally or economically, another three month national full lockdown next winter. In the very worse case we should advise the very vulnerable to lockdown and the rest get on with life including schools remaining open.

    I fear though we are already being soften up for one.

    Me too
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,351
    edited April 2021

    rcs1000 said:

    Another day and right on cue we have another scientist talking about need for another lockdowns if there is a variant problem:

    "Rapid spread of coronavirus variants could necessitate the reimposition of lockdown measures, a scientist advising the Government said.

    Professor Peter Openshaw said his fellow scientists were "very concerned" after a cluster of cases of the South African coronavirus variant were found in London."

    Telegraph blog.

    Once again no doubt talking in a "personal capacity".

    I know from my own extended family that these public utterances are just causing undue worry amongst older folk who have been vaccinated.

    Stop it.

    The problem is that "panic" garners clicks and shares and discussion like this.

    Last week there were two stories:

    (1) Pfizer announced that, based on long term trial data, it's vaccine was 90+% effective against the SA variant. (As in there was a 10- or 20-1 ratio between the number of people in the placebo and the trial group that ended up with a case of SA Covid.) This is, I think you will agree, excellent news.

    (2) An Israeli study noted that of the - extremely small number of people in hospital with Covid - more of them had SA variant CV19 than other variants. The study basically said this suggested that vaccine was less effective against the variant. Two words from this report ("break through") were then taken to suggest Pfizer was somehow innefective against SA variant Covid.

    The second - panic filled and largely inaccurate - story got all the headlines, while the first was basically ignored.
    Indeed one interpretation of the latter is that the sa variant is the main one in circulation. Don’t know if true, but certainly possible.
    What worries me more is the drift away from avoiding hospitalisation and death, to a more zero Covid approach. If the vaccines meant no one needed hospital (and ignoring long Covid for the sake of brevity) then I wouldn’t care if we all caught Covid in any given year. And there would be no need for any other measures. Yet I sense some would now to head for elimination by the back door.
    The variants stories look very like the classic "Cancer scare" stories that are used to generate fear as part of a bottom feeding media strategy by news outlets.

    You missed the ruction yesterday? Boris telling Sky that he wasn't pursuing a zero COVID strategy? That is, that unlocking would increase cases, hospitalisations and possibly deaths.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    To put the 38% into context these are what the governing party achieved at local elections:

    1980 40% Con
    1981 38%
    1982 40%
    1983 39%
    1984 38%
    1985 32%
    1986 34%
    1987 38%
    1988 39%
    1989 36%
    1990 33%
    1991 35%
    1992 46%
    1993 31%
    1994 28%
    1995 25%
    1996 29%
    1998 37% Lab
    1999 36%
    2000 30%
    2002 33%
    2003 30%
    2004 26%
    2006 26%
    2007 26%
    2008 24%
    2009 22%
    2011 38% Con
    2012 33%
    2013 26%
    2014 30%
    2016 32%
    2017 39%
    2018 37%
    2019 31%

    From page 64 of report here:

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7529/

    The big difference between now and 2017 is that UKIP are not the force they were. In 2017 Curtice had them on a national projected share of 25%
    What figures are you using there?

    The BBC projected share in 2017 local elections was
    Con 38
    Lab 27
    LD 18

    So that doesn't leave 25% leftover for UKIP.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    ydoethur said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Horrible feeling we’re being mentally prepared for many more months of restrictions

    Endless talk of variants. Safferbug in Clapham. Supervariant in Brazil. Scary new variant in India (which is surging into a terrifying second wave)

    Meanwhile vaccines are suddenly less important... and we must expect new waves and 50,000 deaths. Hmm

    Cui bono? I don’t believe the government wants us locked down forever; I do believe there is a group of scientists who are properly scared, and they are spooking the politicians

    One answer we don't know is how much the Government, and other Governments, really believe about the causes of Covid. If they believe - despite public commentary - that this thing was actually manufactured in a Chinese lab, and not a natural outbreak, then you can see why they might be a tad concerned.
    Really? I would personally have been less concerned, as it would probably be more stable than a naturally mutating virus.

    Unless you think the Chinese would try and release another one that would evade the vaccines. But I don’t think even Xi would be so stupid as to hope to get away with that twice.

    I don’t think it was manufactured in a lab, though. It’s doing exactly what China doesn’t want it to do - killing off the elderly in the west and leaving the younger economic producers untouched. An attempt to extend their power would have been the other way around.

    If it had genuinely rampaged through China killing more than 350,000, then I might have wondered if it was a rather drastic attempted solution to their demographic problem. But as it didn’t, and as it seems to have taken them by surprise as well given their confused and incoherent response, I’m thinking it’s unlikely.
    Given how much less efficacious the Chinese Sinopharm vaccine is than the Western vaccines, CV19 has also done a great job of persuading many developing countries that a good relationship with the West *is* important. Chinese dollar diplomacy has become a whole lot less effective in the last year.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    To put the 38% into context these are what the governing party achieved at local elections:

    1980 40% Con
    1981 38%
    1982 40%
    1983 39%
    1984 38%
    1985 32%
    1986 34%
    1987 38%
    1988 39%
    1989 36%
    1990 33%
    1991 35%
    1992 46%
    1993 31%
    1994 28%
    1995 25%
    1996 29%
    1998 37% Lab
    1999 36%
    2000 30%
    2002 33%
    2003 30%
    2004 26%
    2006 26%
    2007 26%
    2008 24%
    2009 22%
    2011 38% Con
    2012 33%
    2013 26%
    2014 30%
    2016 32%
    2017 39%
    2018 37%
    2019 31%

    From page 64 of report here:

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7529/

    Interesting they have 2017 as 39% when the BBC figure is 38%

    So barring general election turnout in 1992, the last time a governing party got 40% was back in 1982.
    Fake news, the 1992 locals did NOT take place on the same day as the 1992 general election.
    Thanks. Before my time.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited April 2021

    To put the 38% into context these are what the governing party achieved at local elections:

    1980 40% Con
    1981 38%
    1982 40%
    1983 39%
    1984 38%
    1985 32%
    1986 34%
    1987 38%
    1988 39%
    1989 36%
    1990 33%
    1991 35%
    1992 46%
    1993 31%
    1994 28%
    1995 25%
    1996 29%
    1998 37% Lab
    1999 36%
    2000 30%
    2002 33%
    2003 30%
    2004 26%
    2006 26%
    2007 26%
    2008 24%
    2009 22%
    2011 38% Con
    2012 33%
    2013 26%
    2014 30%
    2016 32%
    2017 39%
    2018 37%
    2019 31%

    From page 64 of report here:

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7529/

    Interesting they have 2017 as 39% when the BBC figure is 38%

    So barring general election turnout in 1992, the last time a governing party got 40% was back in 1982.
    Fake news, the 1992 locals did NOT take place on the same day as the 1992 general election.
    Here’s a question though, thinking of how that was a month after the general.

    Does the campaigning for a general election in itself drive up turnout for the local elections? The first intimation I had that there were elections round here (other than PB, obviously) was when I got my polling card yesterday. Otherwise, everywhere is dead silent. No posters, no TV broadcasts, no leaflets - OK, so no canvassers anyway at the moment, but still, nothing at all is a bit limp.

    Yes, I live in a safe Labour ward and therefore am probably assumed to be not worth canvassing. But you can understand when they’re this low key why people don’t bother to or even realise they could/should turn out.

    Edit - and I note @Gallowgate hasn’t been contacted by the challengers in his ward either.
This discussion has been closed.