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Betting opens for the May 6th locals on the BBC’s Projected National Shares for CON and LAB – politi

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,356
    Pulpstar said:

    Cookie said:

    NHS England recording 42 deaths today. Which is up on last Wednesday's 31, but given that we've just caught up on a four day weekend, not up as much as I thought.
    We were talking, this time last week, about today being the last day of three-figure deaths. From this start I don't think it'll get near that.

    It will be interesting to see how this fills in....

    image
    Looks like we're starting to approach died "with covid" rather than "from covid".
    28 days was chosen for a reason - an attempt to balance those numbers out.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1379781984604487681

    The main driver of the rollout, stronger English first doses than I was expecting.

    270,000. I'll take that after recent shockers. Got to get higher however

    Yes, somewhat better than yesterday's utter shitshow.

    But still nowhere near good enough!
    Why? Its not bad at all for a Tuesday. Its about what we'd expect most Tuesdays - and yes today is a Tuesday as Monday was a bank holiday.

    Tomorrow we should get higher.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,823

    Cookie said:

    NHS England recording 42 deaths today. Which is up on last Wednesday's 31, but given that we've just caught up on a four day weekend, not up as much as I thought.
    We were talking, this time last week, about today being the last day of three-figure deaths. From this start I don't think it'll get near that.

    It will be interesting to see how this fills in....

    image
    NHS England gives us the following:

    29/3 32
    30/3 29
    31/3 36
    1/4 22
    2/4 17
    3/4 16
    4/4 13
    5/4 7
    6/4 5

    Obviously the later the date the more incomplete the data. My rule of thumb is day 5 (17th April in this case) has 90% of total data; day 2 around 50%.
    So the trend is still determinedly downwards.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,236
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    @ all those getting very down and anxious -

    Is next week not big for you?

    Outdoor pubs, indoor leisure, all shops.

    If you take that, plus bend a few (unpoliced) rules on meeting and mixing, are you not getting close to normality?

    No.

    I don't want to go to an outdoor pub. I want to visit my grandparents and they aren't healthy enough to be spending time outdoors in the cold. They've had both vaccines but it will still be illegal to visit them in their living room before 17 May. 😠
    I did say "bend a few (unpoliced) rules".
    Visiting others indoors isn't "bending the rules" it is "breaking the law".

    If the only solution is to break the law, then the law is an ass.
    You wouldn't break the speed limits to avoid being late for something important?
    On my own? Yes.

    With my wife and children in the car? No.
    Having set off a bit late you wouldn't drive 35 in a 30 so as to drop your kids to school on time?

    Utter sanctimonious bullshit.

    Others might but I hardly believe a word you write about your private life. It's all transparent virtue-signalling.

    Sorry, Philip, but that's my take. You carry on though. It's all part of PB's rich mosaic.
    Bad example. Do you drive? I would think nothing of driving at 80-90 and higher on the motorway. I would definitely not speed in an urban area, by a school or not. There's a big difference.
    It was a good example. Yours is too. 85 on a motorway. We almost all do that sometimes. We almost all do 35 in a 30 sometimes too. How do I know this? Because I do and so does everybody I know. It's how it is. Hardly anybody religiously complies with all laws all of the time, but from this it does not follow that all such laws should be scrapped. This is the point I seek to make. Have in fact now made.
    Everybody you know speeds in urban environments? Is this some of that @ydoethur every teacher is planning on leaving the profession in the next two years PB hyperbole?

    Aside from the fact that you must have some scintillating dinner parties to discuss speeding in built-up zones, I really don't think that too many people do speed in such places. Dual carriageways, motorways, country roads all yes. In town in 30mph zones? Nuh-huh.
    it is almost impossible not to go up to 35mph on an empty Spaniard's Road, in Hampstead. Every Londoner with a car has done this
    Irrelevant Trivia of the Day.

    The Navy of Spain is still called the Spanish Armada.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,397

    Charles said:

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    moonshine said:

    Stocky said:

    Since other people have been sharing what is worrying them, I hope people don't mind if I do the same.

    I haven't seen my grandparents in a year and I'm absolutely terrified that I might not ever see them again. I'm lucky enough to still have all my grandparents, my wife has lost all of hers, so I know full well that old people don't live forever. They've been vaccinated but its still illegal to see them until May - there's no guarantee they'll make it until May, I don't want to say it but something could happen at any time and it scares me. I haven't seen any of them since last February and in last couple of decades since returning to live in the UK I'd never gone more than a few weeks without visitng them.

    But we won't go to visit them until its legal, my wife won't let me for the same reason that she wouldn't have any drinks at all while pregnant - not expecting anything to go wrong if being sensible, but couldn't live with ourselves if something did and we'd broken the rules/guidance even if it was coincidental. But still . . . its heartbreaking to not know them and to not know if we ever will again, and to lose valuable time of my kids getting to know their great grandparents while they're still with us.

    Banning families by law from meeting up indoors while there's no excess deaths is absolutely inhumane and its making me quite emotional sorry. I can't support this, its wrong, wrong, wrong.

    But I don't know what to do, this is never something we should have ever had to face.

    Necessary visits to people in need has always been allowed AFAIK. And who cares if it isn't. I'd go and I think your wife is wrong.
    Philip, the whole bloody country was breaking the law this weekend, me included. No need to be a martyr.
    Not up to him, if his wife isn't comfortable breaking the rules.
    It’s a sign of how warped our society has become in just one year that you can say this.

    The decision rests with Philip and his grandparents, no one else.
    It’s a rare man who will ignore his wife’s heartfelt objections!
    @Philip_Thompson, can you not arrange to procure a couple of testing kits? Use one on yourself before going (and go straight there without even a stop for petrol etc.) and use one after leaving before seeing your wife again. You haven't entirely eliminated the risk, but if you and your grandparents (and hopefully your other half) all think you've minimised it to a very small degree, a degree whereby taking in their post or their shopping presents a much greater risk to them than taking in you, then go for it.
    It's takes days for your symptons to appear which is why schools are testing twice weekly...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,205

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    @ all those getting very down and anxious -

    Is next week not big for you?

    Outdoor pubs, indoor leisure, all shops.

    If you take that, plus bend a few (unpoliced) rules on meeting and mixing, are you not getting close to normality?

    No.

    I don't want to go to an outdoor pub. I want to visit my grandparents and they aren't healthy enough to be spending time outdoors in the cold. They've had both vaccines but it will still be illegal to visit them in their living room before 17 May. 😠
    I did say "bend a few (unpoliced) rules".
    Visiting others indoors isn't "bending the rules" it is "breaking the law".

    If the only solution is to break the law, then the law is an ass.
    You wouldn't break the speed limits to avoid being late for something important?
    On my own? Yes.

    With my wife and children in the car? No.
    Having set off a bit late you wouldn't drive 35 in a 30 so as to drop your kids to school on time?

    Utter sanctimonious bullshit.

    Others might but I hardly believe a word you write about your private life. It's all transparent virtue-signalling.

    Sorry, Philip, but that's my take. You carry on though. It's all part of PB's rich mosaic.
    Bad example. Do you drive? I would think nothing of driving at 80-90 and higher on the motorway. I would definitely not speed in an urban area, by a school or not. There's a big difference.
    It was a good example. Yours is too. 85 on a motorway. We almost all do that sometimes. We almost all do 35 in a 30 sometimes too. How do I know this? Because I do and so does everybody I know. It's how it is. Hardly anybody religiously complies with all laws all of the time, but from this it does not follow that all such laws should be scrapped. This is the point I seek to make. Have in fact now made.
    It is a terrible example. Speeding on the school run, past kids who are walking to school - do you seriously do that?

    It isn't even possible to speed on the school run typically, since the roads are so congested with traffic at that time. But its bloody stupid to do so.

    85 on the motorway I said I'm comfortable doing. But on residential roads with children walking, on the school run like you said? No, absolutely not.
    We need a hero. We're holding out for a hero 'til the morning light.
    He's gotta be sure and it's gotta be soon. And he's gotta be driving alright ... driving alright.
    What are you smoking?

    Not speeding on residential roads or near schools doesn't make you a hero, it makes you sane.

    If you choose to speed next to a school then you're not a normal driver, you're a cunt.
    You sound upset, Philip. Don't let kinabalu get to you. He's not worth it.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    On the subject of TVR I am surprised there has not been more of a stink over the millions of tax payer's cash the Welsh government has fruitlessly poured into their latest doomed incarnation.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,477
    eek said:

    Charles said:

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    moonshine said:

    Stocky said:

    Since other people have been sharing what is worrying them, I hope people don't mind if I do the same.

    I haven't seen my grandparents in a year and I'm absolutely terrified that I might not ever see them again. I'm lucky enough to still have all my grandparents, my wife has lost all of hers, so I know full well that old people don't live forever. They've been vaccinated but its still illegal to see them until May - there's no guarantee they'll make it until May, I don't want to say it but something could happen at any time and it scares me. I haven't seen any of them since last February and in last couple of decades since returning to live in the UK I'd never gone more than a few weeks without visitng them.

    But we won't go to visit them until its legal, my wife won't let me for the same reason that she wouldn't have any drinks at all while pregnant - not expecting anything to go wrong if being sensible, but couldn't live with ourselves if something did and we'd broken the rules/guidance even if it was coincidental. But still . . . its heartbreaking to not know them and to not know if we ever will again, and to lose valuable time of my kids getting to know their great grandparents while they're still with us.

    Banning families by law from meeting up indoors while there's no excess deaths is absolutely inhumane and its making me quite emotional sorry. I can't support this, its wrong, wrong, wrong.

    But I don't know what to do, this is never something we should have ever had to face.

    Necessary visits to people in need has always been allowed AFAIK. And who cares if it isn't. I'd go and I think your wife is wrong.
    Philip, the whole bloody country was breaking the law this weekend, me included. No need to be a martyr.
    Not up to him, if his wife isn't comfortable breaking the rules.
    It’s a sign of how warped our society has become in just one year that you can say this.

    The decision rests with Philip and his grandparents, no one else.
    It’s a rare man who will ignore his wife’s heartfelt objections!
    @ Philip_Thompson, can you not arrange to procure a couple of testing kits? Use one on yourself before going (and go straight there without even a stop for petrol etc.) and use one after leaving before seeing your wife again. You haven't entirely eliminated the risk, but if you and your grandparents (and hopefully your other half) all think you've minimised it to a very small degree, a degree whereby taking in their post or their shopping presents a much greater risk to them than taking in you, then go for it.
    It's takes days for your symptons to appear which is why schools are testing twice weekly...
    Does it take days to get a result? I'm sorry I'm really not familiar with the testing apparatus, I assumed they were like a pregnancy test with a fairly instantaneous result.

    The principle remains the same though - do whatever is necessary to minimise the risk to a degree that if (God forbid) the worst happens, everyone would be confident that it wasn't Phil's visit that caused it.
  • MaffewMaffew Posts: 235


    It may be common in London, I don't know about there, but the idea that everyone everywhere in the country speeds in residential roads by schools? The idea that anyone who says they don't must be lying?

    Its preposterous.

    Obviously not everyone does. I don't. I believe you that you don't. However, lots of people do and there are plenty of stats out there on speeding (admittedly probably not granular enough to catch this specific scenario) that back that up.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Stocky said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    @ all those getting very down and anxious -

    Is next week not big for you?

    Outdoor pubs, indoor leisure, all shops.

    If you take that, plus bend a few (unpoliced) rules on meeting and mixing, are you not getting close to normality?

    No.

    I don't want to go to an outdoor pub. I want to visit my grandparents and they aren't healthy enough to be spending time outdoors in the cold. They've had both vaccines but it will still be illegal to visit them in their living room before 17 May. 😠
    I did say "bend a few (unpoliced) rules".
    Visiting others indoors isn't "bending the rules" it is "breaking the law".

    If the only solution is to break the law, then the law is an ass.
    You wouldn't break the speed limits to avoid being late for something important?
    On my own? Yes.

    With my wife and children in the car? No.
    In which case you believe it ok to risk other peoples' children then.
    We all make our own decisions.

    I wouldn't speed by a school, and I don't speed if its raining, but if I deem conditions are right I could do 80 to 90 on the motorway.
    Everyone in the third lane does over 80 on a motorway. It's the ambient speed - custom and practice. Same goes with visiting grandparents as far as I'm concerned!
    For those cars whose speedo in the third lane reads 80, they are probably doing about 72.
    I go by the sat nav. In both my cars going along at 82/83 means 80 assuming sat nav is more correct than the speedo.
    Yes, I found the same in both my previous Golf and current Corolla. At 80 I find that Google Maps says 75. Clearly there is a good margin for error in calibrating the speedo!
    It’s illegal (MoT failure) for the speedo to read under the true speed, so the manufacturers allow a fair bit of margin of error. Modern digital displays are considerably more accurate than old analogue devices, as are GPS devices on phones - given a straight road and good signal. Police cars have calibrated speedos, that have to be tested periodically.
    You may remember the Evul Lawyer who specialised in getting people off for speeding offences?

    He was so disruptive that the police tried investigating *him*

    His Evul Trick was to ask in court - "According to the manufacturer, your speed measuring device needs calibrating every x months. When was it last calibrated?"

    The police hadn't bothered, for the most part, to re-calibrate since purchase....
    My solicitor has got me off 3 out 6 speeding offences since we moved to the UK in 2016 including one that looked like certain jail. She has challenged calibration, training, record keeping, adherence to process, the medical fitness of the cops involved, the weather, etc.
    I need to fess up.

    I collected a brand new car on 1 March this year in Leicester. A few days later I had a speeding notification in the post - 36 in a 30. Bloody lockdown - nothing on the roads. I didn't see a speed camera.

    Anyway, the camera that nicked me is on the very road that the garage is on. I reckon I did less than half a mile in my new car before getting done for speeding.

    Is this a record?
    Very sadly many years ago a friend of a friend went to buy a Cerbera and crashed it into a tree killing himself on the way back from the dealers.
    At least he never got to see it rust.
    I had a Chimaera. Actually not as unreliable as people said. I flogged it well before any problems manifested.

    Edit: and weren't they all fibreglass or do other bits rust?
    The chassis is badly powdercoated steel which you can watch rust in real time. Is the Chimaera the one where you have to take a front wheel off to get at the battery?
    Well obvs I never got near any of that (PBI and all) so not sure.

    It was a lot of fun, that said. Two times I remember - once driving down to Toulon and playing cat and mouse with an M3 for most of the way; the other was sticking some L plates on it for a girlfriend to learn how to drive.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,397

    eek said:

    Charles said:

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    moonshine said:

    Stocky said:

    Since other people have been sharing what is worrying them, I hope people don't mind if I do the same.

    I haven't seen my grandparents in a year and I'm absolutely terrified that I might not ever see them again. I'm lucky enough to still have all my grandparents, my wife has lost all of hers, so I know full well that old people don't live forever. They've been vaccinated but its still illegal to see them until May - there's no guarantee they'll make it until May, I don't want to say it but something could happen at any time and it scares me. I haven't seen any of them since last February and in last couple of decades since returning to live in the UK I'd never gone more than a few weeks without visitng them.

    But we won't go to visit them until its legal, my wife won't let me for the same reason that she wouldn't have any drinks at all while pregnant - not expecting anything to go wrong if being sensible, but couldn't live with ourselves if something did and we'd broken the rules/guidance even if it was coincidental. But still . . . its heartbreaking to not know them and to not know if we ever will again, and to lose valuable time of my kids getting to know their great grandparents while they're still with us.

    Banning families by law from meeting up indoors while there's no excess deaths is absolutely inhumane and its making me quite emotional sorry. I can't support this, its wrong, wrong, wrong.

    But I don't know what to do, this is never something we should have ever had to face.

    Necessary visits to people in need has always been allowed AFAIK. And who cares if it isn't. I'd go and I think your wife is wrong.
    Philip, the whole bloody country was breaking the law this weekend, me included. No need to be a martyr.
    Not up to him, if his wife isn't comfortable breaking the rules.
    It’s a sign of how warped our society has become in just one year that you can say this.

    The decision rests with Philip and his grandparents, no one else.
    It’s a rare man who will ignore his wife’s heartfelt objections!
    @ Philip_Thompson, can you not arrange to procure a couple of testing kits? Use one on yourself before going (and go straight there without even a stop for petrol etc.) and use one after leaving before seeing your wife again. You haven't entirely eliminated the risk, but if you and your grandparents (and hopefully your other half) all think you've minimised it to a very small degree, a degree whereby taking in their post or their shopping presents a much greater risk to them than taking in you, then go for it.
    It's takes days for your symptons to appear which is why schools are testing twice weekly...
    Does it take days to get a result? I'm sorry I'm really not familiar with the testing apparatus, I assumed they were like a pregnancy test with a fairly instantaneous result.

    The principle remains the same though - do whatever is necessary to minimise the risk to a degree that if (God forbid) the worst happens, everyone would be confident that it wasn't Phil's visit that caused it.
    The result comes in minutes with the rapid antigen tests.

    but it takes days for any infection to get to the point that the test will catch the antibodies. Two tests on the same day is completely pointless unless you want to doublecheck that a positive result isn't a false alarm.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    @ all those getting very down and anxious -

    Is next week not big for you?

    Outdoor pubs, indoor leisure, all shops.

    If you take that, plus bend a few (unpoliced) rules on meeting and mixing, are you not getting close to normality?

    No.

    I don't want to go to an outdoor pub. I want to visit my grandparents and they aren't healthy enough to be spending time outdoors in the cold. They've had both vaccines but it will still be illegal to visit them in their living room before 17 May. 😠
    I did say "bend a few (unpoliced) rules".
    Visiting others indoors isn't "bending the rules" it is "breaking the law".

    If the only solution is to break the law, then the law is an ass.
    You wouldn't break the speed limits to avoid being late for something important?
    On my own? Yes.

    With my wife and children in the car? No.
    Having set off a bit late you wouldn't drive 35 in a 30 so as to drop your kids to school on time?

    Utter sanctimonious bullshit.

    Others might but I hardly believe a word you write about your private life. It's all transparent virtue-signalling.

    Sorry, Philip, but that's my take. You carry on though. It's all part of PB's rich mosaic.
    Bad example. Do you drive? I would think nothing of driving at 80-90 and higher on the motorway. I would definitely not speed in an urban area, by a school or not. There's a big difference.
    It was a good example. Yours is too. 85 on a motorway. We almost all do that sometimes. We almost all do 35 in a 30 sometimes too. How do I know this? Because I do and so does everybody I know. It's how it is. Hardly anybody religiously complies with all laws all of the time, but from this it does not follow that all such laws should be scrapped. This is the point I seek to make. Have in fact now made.
    It is a terrible example. Speeding on the school run, past kids who are walking to school - do you seriously do that?

    It isn't even possible to speed on the school run typically, since the roads are so congested with traffic at that time. But its bloody stupid to do so.

    85 on the motorway I said I'm comfortable doing. But on residential roads with children walking, on the school run like you said? No, absolutely not.
    We need a hero. We're holding out for a hero 'til the morning light.
    He's gotta be sure and it's gotta be soon. And he's gotta be driving alright ... driving alright.
    What are you smoking?

    Not speeding on residential roads or near schools doesn't make you a hero, it makes you sane.

    If you choose to speed next to a school then you're not a normal driver, you're a cunt.
    You sound upset, Philip. Don't let kinabalu get to you. He's not worth it.
    Good grief. Will you two ever stop winding each other up?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,205
    edited April 2021
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    @ all those getting very down and anxious -

    Is next week not big for you?

    Outdoor pubs, indoor leisure, all shops.

    If you take that, plus bend a few (unpoliced) rules on meeting and mixing, are you not getting close to normality?

    No.

    I don't want to go to an outdoor pub. I want to visit my grandparents and they aren't healthy enough to be spending time outdoors in the cold. They've had both vaccines but it will still be illegal to visit them in their living room before 17 May. 😠
    I did say "bend a few (unpoliced) rules".
    Visiting others indoors isn't "bending the rules" it is "breaking the law".

    If the only solution is to break the law, then the law is an ass.
    You wouldn't break the speed limits to avoid being late for something important?
    On my own? Yes.

    With my wife and children in the car? No.
    Having set off a bit late you wouldn't drive 35 in a 30 so as to drop your kids to school on time?

    Utter sanctimonious bullshit.

    Others might but I hardly believe a word you write about your private life. It's all transparent virtue-signalling.

    Sorry, Philip, but that's my take. You carry on though. It's all part of PB's rich mosaic.
    Bad example. Do you drive? I would think nothing of driving at 80-90 and higher on the motorway. I would definitely not speed in an urban area, by a school or not. There's a big difference.
    It was a good example. Yours is too. 85 on a motorway. We almost all do that sometimes. We almost all do 35 in a 30 sometimes too. How do I know this? Because I do and so does everybody I know. It's how it is. Hardly anybody religiously complies with all laws all of the time, but from this it does not follow that all such laws should be scrapped. This is the point I seek to make. Have in fact now made.
    Everybody you know speeds in urban environments? Is this some of that @ydoethur every teacher is planning on leaving the profession in the next two years PB hyperbole?

    Aside from the fact that you must have some scintillating dinner parties to discuss speeding in built-up zones, I really don't think that too many people do speed in such places. Dual carriageways, motorways, country roads all yes. In town in 30mph zones? Nuh-huh.
    it is almost impossible not to go up to 35mph on an empty Spaniard's Road, in Hampstead. Every Londoner with a car has done this
    The hardest limit is 20mph. Practically impossible to stick to.
    Yes, and Spaniard's Road is 20mph for most of its length. If it is empty then you literally can't do 20mph because you will get a car behind you, hooting, so you speed up
    What's striking about the Spaniards, carwise, is that narrow gap with room for only one stream of traffic, yet a kind of unwritten, hard-to-define driver etiquette means you never get stuck there for long. Or that's my experience anyway.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Charles said:

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    moonshine said:

    Stocky said:

    Since other people have been sharing what is worrying them, I hope people don't mind if I do the same.

    I haven't seen my grandparents in a year and I'm absolutely terrified that I might not ever see them again. I'm lucky enough to still have all my grandparents, my wife has lost all of hers, so I know full well that old people don't live forever. They've been vaccinated but its still illegal to see them until May - there's no guarantee they'll make it until May, I don't want to say it but something could happen at any time and it scares me. I haven't seen any of them since last February and in last couple of decades since returning to live in the UK I'd never gone more than a few weeks without visitng them.

    But we won't go to visit them until its legal, my wife won't let me for the same reason that she wouldn't have any drinks at all while pregnant - not expecting anything to go wrong if being sensible, but couldn't live with ourselves if something did and we'd broken the rules/guidance even if it was coincidental. But still . . . its heartbreaking to not know them and to not know if we ever will again, and to lose valuable time of my kids getting to know their great grandparents while they're still with us.

    Banning families by law from meeting up indoors while there's no excess deaths is absolutely inhumane and its making me quite emotional sorry. I can't support this, its wrong, wrong, wrong.

    But I don't know what to do, this is never something we should have ever had to face.

    Necessary visits to people in need has always been allowed AFAIK. And who cares if it isn't. I'd go and I think your wife is wrong.
    Philip, the whole bloody country was breaking the law this weekend, me included. No need to be a martyr.
    Not up to him, if his wife isn't comfortable breaking the rules.
    It’s a sign of how warped our society has become in just one year that you can say this.

    The decision rests with Philip and his grandparents, no one else.
    It’s a rare man who will ignore his wife’s heartfelt objections!
    @Philip_Thompson, can you not arrange to procure a couple of testing kits? Use one on yourself before going (and go straight there without even a stop for petrol etc.) and use one after leaving before seeing your wife again. You haven't entirely eliminated the risk, but if you and your grandparents (and hopefully your other half) all think you've minimised it to a very small degree, a degree whereby taking in their post or their shopping presents a much greater risk to them than taking in you, then go for it.
    That's good advice thank you.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204

    Pulpstar said:

    Cookie said:

    NHS England recording 42 deaths today. Which is up on last Wednesday's 31, but given that we've just caught up on a four day weekend, not up as much as I thought.
    We were talking, this time last week, about today being the last day of three-figure deaths. From this start I don't think it'll get near that.

    It will be interesting to see how this fills in....

    image
    Looks like we're starting to approach died "with covid" rather than "from covid".
    28 days was chosen for a reason - an attempt to balance those numbers out.
    Case rates are also falling so it's likely all deaths are still "from covid" - nevertheless pleasing to see.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,477

    Charles said:

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    moonshine said:

    Stocky said:

    Since other people have been sharing what is worrying them, I hope people don't mind if I do the same.

    I haven't seen my grandparents in a year and I'm absolutely terrified that I might not ever see them again. I'm lucky enough to still have all my grandparents, my wife has lost all of hers, so I know full well that old people don't live forever. They've been vaccinated but its still illegal to see them until May - there's no guarantee they'll make it until May, I don't want to say it but something could happen at any time and it scares me. I haven't seen any of them since last February and in last couple of decades since returning to live in the UK I'd never gone more than a few weeks without visitng them.

    But we won't go to visit them until its legal, my wife won't let me for the same reason that she wouldn't have any drinks at all while pregnant - not expecting anything to go wrong if being sensible, but couldn't live with ourselves if something did and we'd broken the rules/guidance even if it was coincidental. But still . . . its heartbreaking to not know them and to not know if we ever will again, and to lose valuable time of my kids getting to know their great grandparents while they're still with us.

    Banning families by law from meeting up indoors while there's no excess deaths is absolutely inhumane and its making me quite emotional sorry. I can't support this, its wrong, wrong, wrong.

    But I don't know what to do, this is never something we should have ever had to face.

    Necessary visits to people in need has always been allowed AFAIK. And who cares if it isn't. I'd go and I think your wife is wrong.
    Philip, the whole bloody country was breaking the law this weekend, me included. No need to be a martyr.
    Not up to him, if his wife isn't comfortable breaking the rules.
    It’s a sign of how warped our society has become in just one year that you can say this.

    The decision rests with Philip and his grandparents, no one else.
    It’s a rare man who will ignore his wife’s heartfelt objections!
    @Philip_Thompson, can you not arrange to procure a couple of testing kits? Use one on yourself before going (and go straight there without even a stop for petrol etc.) and use one after leaving before seeing your wife again. You haven't entirely eliminated the risk, but if you and your grandparents (and hopefully your other half) all think you've minimised it to a very small degree, a degree whereby taking in their post or their shopping presents a much greater risk to them than taking in you, then go for it.
    That's good advice thank you.
    No worries - see @eek's advice re tests, but doing one before you go would probably still help to ease minds.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    @ all those getting very down and anxious -

    Is next week not big for you?

    Outdoor pubs, indoor leisure, all shops.

    If you take that, plus bend a few (unpoliced) rules on meeting and mixing, are you not getting close to normality?

    No.

    I don't want to go to an outdoor pub. I want to visit my grandparents and they aren't healthy enough to be spending time outdoors in the cold. They've had both vaccines but it will still be illegal to visit them in their living room before 17 May. 😠
    I did say "bend a few (unpoliced) rules".
    Visiting others indoors isn't "bending the rules" it is "breaking the law".

    If the only solution is to break the law, then the law is an ass.
    You wouldn't break the speed limits to avoid being late for something important?
    On my own? Yes.

    With my wife and children in the car? No.
    Having set off a bit late you wouldn't drive 35 in a 30 so as to drop your kids to school on time?

    Utter sanctimonious bullshit.

    Others might but I hardly believe a word you write about your private life. It's all transparent virtue-signalling.

    Sorry, Philip, but that's my take. You carry on though. It's all part of PB's rich mosaic.
    Bad example. Do you drive? I would think nothing of driving at 80-90 and higher on the motorway. I would definitely not speed in an urban area, by a school or not. There's a big difference.
    It was a good example. Yours is too. 85 on a motorway. We almost all do that sometimes. We almost all do 35 in a 30 sometimes too. How do I know this? Because I do and so does everybody I know. It's how it is. Hardly anybody religiously complies with all laws all of the time, but from this it does not follow that all such laws should be scrapped. This is the point I seek to make. Have in fact now made.
    Everybody you know speeds in urban environments? Is this some of that @ydoethur every teacher is planning on leaving the profession in the next two years PB hyperbole?

    Aside from the fact that you must have some scintillating dinner parties to discuss speeding in built-up zones, I really don't think that too many people do speed in such places. Dual carriageways, motorways, country roads all yes. In town in 30mph zones? Nuh-huh.
    it is almost impossible not to go up to 35mph on an empty Spaniard's Road, in Hampstead. Every Londoner with a car has done this
    The hardest limit is 20mph. Practically impossible to stick to.
    Yes, and Spaniard's Road is 20mph for most of its length. If it is empty then you literally can't do 20mph because you will get a car behind you, hooting, so you speed up
    What's striking about the Spaniards, carwise, is that narrow gap with room for only one stream of traffic, yet a kind of unwritten, hard-to-define driver etiquette means you never get stuck there for long. Or that's my experience anyway.
    Yes, Londoners have an instinctive feel for that bottleneck. If you ever get stuck in a queue, it means some yokel is ill-advisedly trying to "drive" in the capital. Go home, hayseeds.

    Incidentally that same bottleneck is there because half of it is one of the few remaining turnpike houses in the country: ie a place where traffic HAD to stop in the 17th-18th century

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    I'm no fan of this government (a gross understatement), but I don't share the doom and gloom of so many on here.

    The government set out a roadmap with which most broadly agreed, in the context of a horrendous death and illness toll in January/February. It's now April. Yes, it was a cautious roadmap - understandable given the history of the virus and some uncertainty about the efficacy of vaccines. That uncertainty has diminished massively, but not completely. As far as I can tell, the government is sticking to the roadmap and restrictions will be eased next week, and more significantly on May 17th and then in June. If the government backtracks on the roadmap without good reason I'll join the complainants, but there's no sign of that yet.

    Meanwhile, while the restrictions are a complete pain, they are increasingly less arduous, especially as people interpret them more sensibly. We've started having visitors to the house, because we know infections locally are now very low. The police have not knocked on our door, nor will they. I leave the house several times a day. Next Monday, my daughter has booked a table at a beachfront bar from 2pm - 8pm; we shall visit in shifts of six.

    I just wonder if a bit of patience would be wise. We should man the barricades if/when it is clear that conspiracies about extending lockdown and enforcing ID cards are imminent, but not while they are still theoretical risks that I don't actually think will happen.

    Yes, I'm broadly with you. I think the problem for me is that I don't trust the government, particularly given its predilection for following lumpen opinion over science and principle. Johnson want to be liked, and I don't think that's doing us any favours. If the road map is adhered to (inc international travel 17 May (in conjunction with traffic light system) ) then I'll heave a huge sigh of relief.
    My view is almost the same but slightly nuanced re: Boris. I think Boris is a metro liberal at heart and his instincts are towards liberty. The same cannot be said, sadly, for many others in his party –the Patels and the rump Red Wallers, who love a bit of authoritarian lock'em and flog'em. The Tory version of the Sandy Rentool Tendency if you will.
    I reflect northern working class opinion.

    North London handwringers should take note.
    By North London hand wringers, presumably you mean "people who live in north London (like Anabobazina) who have a different worldview to me?"
    He does. And it includes me too. In spades it does. But Sandy is a Red Wall voice and we don't have that many.
    Sure, I'm not calling for him to leave! I just find his lock'em and flog'em mentality abhorrent. It's not that rare: authoritarianism of one shade or another is the dominant credo on PB.
    I'm pleased you don't want me to leave. And I wasn't intending to be personal with my reference to N. London handwringers. It was aimed more at those in the Labour Party who don't seem to have any idea what is important to voters up here - which I find frustrating.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,205
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    @ all those getting very down and anxious -

    Is next week not big for you?

    Outdoor pubs, indoor leisure, all shops.

    If you take that, plus bend a few (unpoliced) rules on meeting and mixing, are you not getting close to normality?

    No.

    I don't want to go to an outdoor pub. I want to visit my grandparents and they aren't healthy enough to be spending time outdoors in the cold. They've had both vaccines but it will still be illegal to visit them in their living room before 17 May. 😠
    I did say "bend a few (unpoliced) rules".
    Visiting others indoors isn't "bending the rules" it is "breaking the law".

    If the only solution is to break the law, then the law is an ass.
    You wouldn't break the speed limits to avoid being late for something important?
    On my own? Yes.

    With my wife and children in the car? No.
    Having set off a bit late you wouldn't drive 35 in a 30 so as to drop your kids to school on time?

    Utter sanctimonious bullshit.

    Others might but I hardly believe a word you write about your private life. It's all transparent virtue-signalling.

    Sorry, Philip, but that's my take. You carry on though. It's all part of PB's rich mosaic.
    Bad example. Do you drive? I would think nothing of driving at 80-90 and higher on the motorway. I would definitely not speed in an urban area, by a school or not. There's a big difference.
    It was a good example. Yours is too. 85 on a motorway. We almost all do that sometimes. We almost all do 35 in a 30 sometimes too. How do I know this? Because I do and so does everybody I know. It's how it is. Hardly anybody religiously complies with all laws all of the time, but from this it does not follow that all such laws should be scrapped. This is the point I seek to make. Have in fact now made.
    Everybody you know speeds in urban environments? Is this some of that @ydoethur every teacher is planning on leaving the profession in the next two years PB hyperbole?

    Aside from the fact that you must have some scintillating dinner parties to discuss speeding in built-up zones, I really don't think that too many people do speed in such places. Dual carriageways, motorways, country roads all yes. In town in 30mph zones? Nuh-huh.
    Occasionally exceeds the speed limit by a modest amount - is how I'd put it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    On the subject of libertarianism, this is Superb


    https://twitter.com/GarySanchezRBW/status/1379141881876123651?s=20
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,205
    edited April 2021

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    @ all those getting very down and anxious -

    Is next week not big for you?

    Outdoor pubs, indoor leisure, all shops.

    If you take that, plus bend a few (unpoliced) rules on meeting and mixing, are you not getting close to normality?

    No.

    I don't want to go to an outdoor pub. I want to visit my grandparents and they aren't healthy enough to be spending time outdoors in the cold. They've had both vaccines but it will still be illegal to visit them in their living room before 17 May. 😠
    I did say "bend a few (unpoliced) rules".
    Visiting others indoors isn't "bending the rules" it is "breaking the law".

    If the only solution is to break the law, then the law is an ass.
    You wouldn't break the speed limits to avoid being late for something important?
    On my own? Yes.

    With my wife and children in the car? No.
    Having set off a bit late you wouldn't drive 35 in a 30 so as to drop your kids to school on time?

    Utter sanctimonious bullshit.

    Others might but I hardly believe a word you write about your private life. It's all transparent virtue-signalling.

    Sorry, Philip, but that's my take. You carry on though. It's all part of PB's rich mosaic.
    Bad example. Do you drive? I would think nothing of driving at 80-90 and higher on the motorway. I would definitely not speed in an urban area, by a school or not. There's a big difference.
    Thank you Topping. Yes, motorway speeding is far safer than residential speeding.

    Especially when kids are walking along the road. I can not think of a worse example of when speeding would be appropriate than the school run.
    Why are you thanking him? You said that you WOULD speed in a residential area if it were just you in the car.

    ???

    Busted again, aren't you? Wriggling around on a petard of your own construction. Again.
    No I didn't say that. Read again. I don't know why you're being nasty as I never said that.

    If I was driving across country to an important meeting then I might speed on the motorway to get there. Speeding on the motorway saves time, if its safe to do so. Speeding on residential roads does not.
    You'd take a sensible, risk-appropriate view based on the road, the conditions, the circumstances. Voila. Let's go to print with that as a piece of motherhood and apple pie.

    My point being, people don't comply with all laws all of the time, but this is no argument for saying that all such laws (the ones which are often broken) are "an ass".

    Twas a long long road, with many a winding curve - but we are there.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    Leon said:

    On the subject of libertarianism, this is Superb


    https://twitter.com/GarySanchezRBW/status/1379141881876123651?s=20

    Should someone have to have a medical license before performing brain surgery?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    I'm no fan of this government (a gross understatement), but I don't share the doom and gloom of so many on here.

    The government set out a roadmap with which most broadly agreed, in the context of a horrendous death and illness toll in January/February. It's now April. Yes, it was a cautious roadmap - understandable given the history of the virus and some uncertainty about the efficacy of vaccines. That uncertainty has diminished massively, but not completely. As far as I can tell, the government is sticking to the roadmap and restrictions will be eased next week, and more significantly on May 17th and then in June. If the government backtracks on the roadmap without good reason I'll join the complainants, but there's no sign of that yet.

    Meanwhile, while the restrictions are a complete pain, they are increasingly less arduous, especially as people interpret them more sensibly. We've started having visitors to the house, because we know infections locally are now very low. The police have not knocked on our door, nor will they. I leave the house several times a day. Next Monday, my daughter has booked a table at a beachfront bar from 2pm - 8pm; we shall visit in shifts of six.

    I just wonder if a bit of patience would be wise. We should man the barricades if/when it is clear that conspiracies about extending lockdown and enforcing ID cards are imminent, but not while they are still theoretical risks that I don't actually think will happen.

    Yes, I'm broadly with you. I think the problem for me is that I don't trust the government, particularly given its predilection for following lumpen opinion over science and principle. Johnson want to be liked, and I don't think that's doing us any favours. If the road map is adhered to (inc international travel 17 May (in conjunction with traffic light system) ) then I'll heave a huge sigh of relief.
    My view is almost the same but slightly nuanced re: Boris. I think Boris is a metro liberal at heart and his instincts are towards liberty. The same cannot be said, sadly, for many others in his party –the Patels and the rump Red Wallers, who love a bit of authoritarian lock'em and flog'em. The Tory version of the Sandy Rentool Tendency if you will.
    I reflect northern working class opinion.

    North London handwringers should take note.
    By North London hand wringers, presumably you mean "people who live in north London (like Anabobazina) who have a different worldview to me?"
    He does. And it includes me too. In spades it does. But Sandy is a Red Wall voice and we don't have that many.
    Sure, I'm not calling for him to leave! I just find his lock'em and flog'em mentality abhorrent. It's not that rare: authoritarianism of one shade or another is the dominant credo on PB.
    I'm pleased you don't want me to leave. And I wasn't intending to be personal with my reference to N. London handwringers. It was aimed more at those in the Labour Party who don't seem to have any idea what is important to voters up here - which I find frustrating.
    Of course you don't speak for everyone "up here".
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    On the subject of libertarianism, this is Superb


    https://twitter.com/GarySanchezRBW/status/1379141881876123651?s=20

    Should someone have to have a medical license before performing brain surgery?
    Toaster Licence guy, YAYYY!

    Well maybe we should have some kind of basic competency test for driv - BOOOO!!!!

    It's like one of the best ever Simpsons gags, but real
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    https://twitter.com/zerohedge/status/1379793646652887047?s=20

    If the EMA aren't banning it, then surely the UK won't
  • MattW said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    @ all those getting very down and anxious -

    Is next week not big for you?

    Outdoor pubs, indoor leisure, all shops.

    If you take that, plus bend a few (unpoliced) rules on meeting and mixing, are you not getting close to normality?

    No.

    I don't want to go to an outdoor pub. I want to visit my grandparents and they aren't healthy enough to be spending time outdoors in the cold. They've had both vaccines but it will still be illegal to visit them in their living room before 17 May. 😠
    I did say "bend a few (unpoliced) rules".
    Visiting others indoors isn't "bending the rules" it is "breaking the law".

    If the only solution is to break the law, then the law is an ass.
    You wouldn't break the speed limits to avoid being late for something important?
    On my own? Yes.

    With my wife and children in the car? No.
    Having set off a bit late you wouldn't drive 35 in a 30 so as to drop your kids to school on time?

    Utter sanctimonious bullshit.

    Others might but I hardly believe a word you write about your private life. It's all transparent virtue-signalling.

    Sorry, Philip, but that's my take. You carry on though. It's all part of PB's rich mosaic.
    Bad example. Do you drive? I would think nothing of driving at 80-90 and higher on the motorway. I would definitely not speed in an urban area, by a school or not. There's a big difference.
    It was a good example. Yours is too. 85 on a motorway. We almost all do that sometimes. We almost all do 35 in a 30 sometimes too. How do I know this? Because I do and so does everybody I know. It's how it is. Hardly anybody religiously complies with all laws all of the time, but from this it does not follow that all such laws should be scrapped. This is the point I seek to make. Have in fact now made.
    Everybody you know speeds in urban environments? Is this some of that @ydoethur every teacher is planning on leaving the profession in the next two years PB hyperbole?

    Aside from the fact that you must have some scintillating dinner parties to discuss speeding in built-up zones, I really don't think that too many people do speed in such places. Dual carriageways, motorways, country roads all yes. In town in 30mph zones? Nuh-huh.
    it is almost impossible not to go up to 35mph on an empty Spaniard's Road, in Hampstead. Every Londoner with a car has done this
    Irrelevant Trivia of the Day.

    The Navy of Spain is still called the Spanish Armada.
    Isn't that just because "armada" is basically just Spanish for "navy"?

    I don't really get what's surprising about that fact. I mean the Royal Navy is still called the Royal Navy.

    Also, I don't think what we call the Spanish Armada meaning the 1588 fleet was called that in Spain as it wasn't the whole of the Spanish Navy (although it was a lot of ships). I believe it was called (ironically) the Great & Fortunate Armada.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    On the subject of libertarianism, this is Superb


    https://twitter.com/GarySanchezRBW/status/1379141881876123651?s=20

    Should someone have to have a medical license before performing brain surgery?
    Toaster Licence guy, YAYYY!

    Well maybe we should have some kind of basic competency test for driv - BOOOO!!!!

    It's like one of the best ever Simpsons gags, but real
    Gary Johnson being out-libbed. Wow.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Stocky said:

    What is it about PB.com that makes the hours unproductively slip by? It's like fishing.

    Yes, and sometimes it's a real struggle to reel 'em in.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    edited April 2021

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    @ all those getting very down and anxious -

    Is next week not big for you?

    Outdoor pubs, indoor leisure, all shops.

    If you take that, plus bend a few (unpoliced) rules on meeting and mixing, are you not getting close to normality?

    No.

    I don't want to go to an outdoor pub. I want to visit my grandparents and they aren't healthy enough to be spending time outdoors in the cold. They've had both vaccines but it will still be illegal to visit them in their living room before 17 May. 😠
    I did say "bend a few (unpoliced) rules".
    Visiting others indoors isn't "bending the rules" it is "breaking the law".

    If the only solution is to break the law, then the law is an ass.
    You wouldn't break the speed limits to avoid being late for something important?
    On my own? Yes.

    With my wife and children in the car? No.
    Having set off a bit late you wouldn't drive 35 in a 30 so as to drop your kids to school on time?

    Utter sanctimonious bullshit.

    Others might but I hardly believe a word you write about your private life. It's all transparent virtue-signalling.

    Sorry, Philip, but that's my take. You carry on though. It's all part of PB's rich mosaic.
    Bad example. Do you drive? I would think nothing of driving at 80-90 and higher on the motorway. I would definitely not speed in an urban area, by a school or not. There's a big difference.
    It was a good example. Yours is too. 85 on a motorway. We almost all do that sometimes. We almost all do 35 in a 30 sometimes too. How do I know this? Because I do and so does everybody I know. It's how it is. Hardly anybody religiously complies with all laws all of the time, but from this it does not follow that all such laws should be scrapped. This is the point I seek to make. Have in fact now made.
    Everybody you know speeds in urban environments? Is this some of that @ydoethur every teacher is planning on leaving the profession in the next two years PB hyperbole?

    Aside from the fact that you must have some scintillating dinner parties to discuss speeding in built-up zones, I really don't think that too many people do speed in such places. Dual carriageways, motorways, country roads all yes. In town in 30mph zones? Nuh-huh.
    it is almost impossible not to go up to 35mph on an empty Spaniard's Road, in Hampstead. Every Londoner with a car has done this
    Irrelevant Trivia of the Day.

    The Navy of Spain is still called the Spanish Armada.
    Isn't that just because "armada" is basically just Spanish for "navy"?

    I don't really get what's surprising about that fact. I mean the Royal Navy is still called the Royal Navy.

    Also, I don't think what we call the Spanish Armada meaning the 1588 fleet was called that in Spain as it wasn't the whole of the Spanish Navy (although it was a lot of ships). I believe it was called (ironically) the Great & Fortunate Armada.
    "Great and Fortunate Armada"?!

    What did they seriously expect to happen? There's tempting Fate and then there's running up to Fate and wildly shoving a cucumber up his butt

    Lost all sympathy
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/zerohedge/status/1379793646652887047?s=20

    If the EMA aren't banning it, then surely the UK won't

    I honestly remember reading the same 'news' a week, or a fortnight ago, or possibly both a week ago and a fortnight ago. Are we actually in a Groundhog Day loop, rather than simply feeling as if we are?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    On the subject of libertarianism, this is Superb


    https://twitter.com/GarySanchezRBW/status/1379141881876123651?s=20

    Should someone have to have a medical license before performing brain surgery?
    Toaster Licence guy, YAYYY!

    Well maybe we should have some kind of basic competency test for driv - BOOOO!!!!

    It's like one of the best ever Simpsons gags, but real
    Gary Johnson being out-libbed. Wow.
    Please tell me that didn't actually happen!
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    I'm no fan of this government (a gross understatement), but I don't share the doom and gloom of so many on here.

    The government set out a roadmap with which most broadly agreed, in the context of a horrendous death and illness toll in January/February. It's now April. Yes, it was a cautious roadmap - understandable given the history of the virus and some uncertainty about the efficacy of vaccines. That uncertainty has diminished massively, but not completely. As far as I can tell, the government is sticking to the roadmap and restrictions will be eased next week, and more significantly on May 17th and then in June. If the government backtracks on the roadmap without good reason I'll join the complainants, but there's no sign of that yet.

    Meanwhile, while the restrictions are a complete pain, they are increasingly less arduous, especially as people interpret them more sensibly. We've started having visitors to the house, because we know infections locally are now very low. The police have not knocked on our door, nor will they. I leave the house several times a day. Next Monday, my daughter has booked a table at a beachfront bar from 2pm - 8pm; we shall visit in shifts of six.

    I just wonder if a bit of patience would be wise. We should man the barricades if/when it is clear that conspiracies about extending lockdown and enforcing ID cards are imminent, but not while they are still theoretical risks that I don't actually think will happen.

    Yes, I'm broadly with you. I think the problem for me is that I don't trust the government, particularly given its predilection for following lumpen opinion over science and principle. Johnson want to be liked, and I don't think that's doing us any favours. If the road map is adhered to (inc international travel 17 May (in conjunction with traffic light system) ) then I'll heave a huge sigh of relief.
    My view is almost the same but slightly nuanced re: Boris. I think Boris is a metro liberal at heart and his instincts are towards liberty. The same cannot be said, sadly, for many others in his party –the Patels and the rump Red Wallers, who love a bit of authoritarian lock'em and flog'em. The Tory version of the Sandy Rentool Tendency if you will.
    I reflect northern working class opinion.

    North London handwringers should take note.
    By North London hand wringers, presumably you mean "people who live in north London (like Anabobazina) who have a different worldview to me?"
    He does. And it includes me too. In spades it does. But Sandy is a Red Wall voice and we don't have that many.
    Sure, I'm not calling for him to leave! I just find his lock'em and flog'em mentality abhorrent. It's not that rare: authoritarianism of one shade or another is the dominant credo on PB.
    I'm pleased you don't want me to leave. And I wasn't intending to be personal with my reference to N. London handwringers. It was aimed more at those in the Labour Party who don't seem to have any idea what is important to voters up here - which I find frustrating.
    Of course you don't speak for everyone "up here".
    No. Probably a good thing!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,205

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    I'm no fan of this government (a gross understatement), but I don't share the doom and gloom of so many on here.

    The government set out a roadmap with which most broadly agreed, in the context of a horrendous death and illness toll in January/February. It's now April. Yes, it was a cautious roadmap - understandable given the history of the virus and some uncertainty about the efficacy of vaccines. That uncertainty has diminished massively, but not completely. As far as I can tell, the government is sticking to the roadmap and restrictions will be eased next week, and more significantly on May 17th and then in June. If the government backtracks on the roadmap without good reason I'll join the complainants, but there's no sign of that yet.

    Meanwhile, while the restrictions are a complete pain, they are increasingly less arduous, especially as people interpret them more sensibly. We've started having visitors to the house, because we know infections locally are now very low. The police have not knocked on our door, nor will they. I leave the house several times a day. Next Monday, my daughter has booked a table at a beachfront bar from 2pm - 8pm; we shall visit in shifts of six.

    I just wonder if a bit of patience would be wise. We should man the barricades if/when it is clear that conspiracies about extending lockdown and enforcing ID cards are imminent, but not while they are still theoretical risks that I don't actually think will happen.

    Yes, I'm broadly with you. I think the problem for me is that I don't trust the government, particularly given its predilection for following lumpen opinion over science and principle. Johnson want to be liked, and I don't think that's doing us any favours. If the road map is adhered to (inc international travel 17 May (in conjunction with traffic light system) ) then I'll heave a huge sigh of relief.
    My view is almost the same but slightly nuanced re: Boris. I think Boris is a metro liberal at heart and his instincts are towards liberty. The same cannot be said, sadly, for many others in his party –the Patels and the rump Red Wallers, who love a bit of authoritarian lock'em and flog'em. The Tory version of the Sandy Rentool Tendency if you will.
    I reflect northern working class opinion.

    North London handwringers should take note.
    By North London hand wringers, presumably you mean "people who live in north London (like Anabobazina) who have a different worldview to me?"
    He does. And it includes me too. In spades it does. But Sandy is a Red Wall voice and we don't have that many.
    I'm a Red Wall voice by birth and upbringing, but for the last 20 years have lived in the Epicentre of Right-On Wokeness.

    As a result, I have several identity crises.
    Exact same. I live in Hampstead now but I'm from the coalfields of South Yorkshire and both my g'dads were miners. 1st to go to uni. Etc etc. Somewhere on this journey I have lost my identity. Except not really, cos I'm not sure I had one.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/zerohedge/status/1379793646652887047?s=20

    If the EMA aren't banning it, then surely the UK won't

    Won't be explicitly banned I expect, but with our automated booking system G12 & perhaps G11 females might be steered toward other brands.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Leon said:

    On the subject of libertarianism, this is Superb


    https://twitter.com/GarySanchezRBW/status/1379141881876123651?s=20

    LOL! Yes I'd side with Gary Johnson there.

    Some people confuse libertarianism with anarchy.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    I don't understand how that scumbag only got 30 months in jail for killing that girl while speeding. He'll be out in a year. Don't think that sentence properly reflects the seriousness of the crime or that someone was killed. Should have got 10 years minimum no parole.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/zerohedge/status/1379793646652887047?s=20

    If the EMA aren't banning it, then surely the UK won't

    I honestly remember reading the same 'news' a week, or a fortnight ago, or possibly both a week ago and a fortnight ago. Are we actually in a Groundhog Day loop, rather than simply feeling as if we are?
    I'm honestly not sure. I just keep counting down the days until I can get a haircut.
  • MaffewMaffew Posts: 235
    MaxPB said:

    I don't understand how that scumbag only got 30 months in jail for killing that girl while speeding. He'll be out in a year. Don't think that sentence properly reflects the seriousness of the crime or that someone was killed. Should have got 10 years minimum no parole.

    Penalties for killing people while driving are incredibly low. If you want to kill someone, do it in car.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/zerohedge/status/1379793646652887047?s=20

    If the EMA aren't banning it, then surely the UK won't

    I honestly remember reading the same 'news' a week, or a fortnight ago, or possibly both a week ago and a fortnight ago. Are we actually in a Groundhog Day loop, rather than simply feeling as if we are?
    You are correct - it is caused, I think, by the different way some authorities, especially in some European countries, assess risk. Some seem overly wedded to the 'precautionary principle' while forgetting it's really all about relativity. It seems that both Covid and to a much lesser extent some vaccines have a clotting link. Like everything else in life we must weigh the odds and and take the least bad choice.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,823
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    NHS England recording 42 deaths today. Which is up on last Wednesday's 31, but given that we've just caught up on a four day weekend, not up as much as I thought.
    We were talking, this time last week, about today being the last day of three-figure deaths. From this start I don't think it'll get near that.

    It will be interesting to see how this fills in....

    image
    NHS England gives us the following:

    29/3 32
    30/3 29
    31/3 36
    1/4 22
    2/4 17
    3/4 16
    4/4 13
    5/4 7
    6/4 5

    Obviously the later the date the more incomplete the data. My rule of thumb is day 5 (4th April in this case) has 90% of total data; day 2 around 50%.
    So the trend is still determinedly downwards.
    edit - got the date wrong. Now corrected.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    edited April 2021
    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,356
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/zerohedge/status/1379793646652887047?s=20

    If the EMA aren't banning it, then surely the UK won't

    I honestly remember reading the same 'news' a week, or a fortnight ago, or possibly both a week ago and a fortnight ago. Are we actually in a Groundhog Day loop, rather than simply feeling as if we are?
    I'm honestly not sure. I just keep counting down the days until I can get a haircut.
    In the original script for Groundhog Day, he was supposed to be stuck in there for 10,000 years.....
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/zerohedge/status/1379793646652887047?s=20

    If the EMA aren't banning it, then surely the UK won't

    I honestly remember reading the same 'news' a week, or a fortnight ago, or possibly both a week ago and a fortnight ago. Are we actually in a Groundhog Day loop, rather than simply feeling as if we are?
    I'm honestly not sure. I just keep counting down the days until I can get a haircut.
    You may regret it Samson.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/zerohedge/status/1379793646652887047?s=20

    If the EMA aren't banning it, then surely the UK won't

    I honestly remember reading the same 'news' a week, or a fortnight ago, or possibly both a week ago and a fortnight ago. Are we actually in a Groundhog Day loop, rather than simply feeling as if we are?
    I'm honestly not sure. I just keep counting down the days until I can get a haircut.
    In the original script for Groundhog Day, he was supposed to be stuck in there for 10,000 years.....
    Damn, that would have been pretty dark at the end.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    Where would that leave under 30s who have had a first dose of it ?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    Sounds as though there will be other vaccines available by the time under 30s are offered it, so it wouldn't be much of an issue.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    I'm no fan of this government (a gross understatement), but I don't share the doom and gloom of so many on here.

    The government set out a roadmap with which most broadly agreed, in the context of a horrendous death and illness toll in January/February. It's now April. Yes, it was a cautious roadmap - understandable given the history of the virus and some uncertainty about the efficacy of vaccines. That uncertainty has diminished massively, but not completely. As far as I can tell, the government is sticking to the roadmap and restrictions will be eased next week, and more significantly on May 17th and then in June. If the government backtracks on the roadmap without good reason I'll join the complainants, but there's no sign of that yet.

    Meanwhile, while the restrictions are a complete pain, they are increasingly less arduous, especially as people interpret them more sensibly. We've started having visitors to the house, because we know infections locally are now very low. The police have not knocked on our door, nor will they. I leave the house several times a day. Next Monday, my daughter has booked a table at a beachfront bar from 2pm - 8pm; we shall visit in shifts of six.

    I just wonder if a bit of patience would be wise. We should man the barricades if/when it is clear that conspiracies about extending lockdown and enforcing ID cards are imminent, but not while they are still theoretical risks that I don't actually think will happen.

    Yes, I'm broadly with you. I think the problem for me is that I don't trust the government, particularly given its predilection for following lumpen opinion over science and principle. Johnson want to be liked, and I don't think that's doing us any favours. If the road map is adhered to (inc international travel 17 May (in conjunction with traffic light system) ) then I'll heave a huge sigh of relief.
    My view is almost the same but slightly nuanced re: Boris. I think Boris is a metro liberal at heart and his instincts are towards liberty. The same cannot be said, sadly, for many others in his party –the Patels and the rump Red Wallers, who love a bit of authoritarian lock'em and flog'em. The Tory version of the Sandy Rentool Tendency if you will.
    I reflect northern working class opinion.

    North London handwringers should take note.
    By North London hand wringers, presumably you mean "people who live in north London (like Anabobazina) who have a different worldview to me?"
    He does. And it includes me too. In spades it does. But Sandy is a Red Wall voice and we don't have that many.
    I'm a Red Wall voice by birth and upbringing, but for the last 20 years have lived in the Epicentre of Right-On Wokeness.

    As a result, I have several identity crises.
    Exact same. I live in Hampstead now but I'm from the coalfields of South Yorkshire and both my g'dads were miners. 1st to go to uni. Etc etc. Somewhere on this journey I have lost my identity. Except not really, cos I'm not sure I had one.
    Being working class by origin but being able to live a middle class lifestyle does create a complex identity.

    Buying organic mushy peas from Waitrose. That sums it up.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    This is going to destroy vaccine acceptance in the EU, and maybe harm it badly in the UK

    What if they find the same in Pfizer, J&J, Novavax? Very rare side effects? Do we stop all vaccines, because 1 in 600,000 keel over?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,356
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    NHS England recording 42 deaths today. Which is up on last Wednesday's 31, but given that we've just caught up on a four day weekend, not up as much as I thought.
    We were talking, this time last week, about today being the last day of three-figure deaths. From this start I don't think it'll get near that.

    It will be interesting to see how this fills in....

    image
    NHS England gives us the following:

    29/3 32
    30/3 29
    31/3 36
    1/4 22
    2/4 17
    3/4 16
    4/4 13
    5/4 7
    6/4 5

    Obviously the later the date the more incomplete the data. My rule of thumb is day 5 (4th April in this case) has 90% of total data; day 2 around 50%.
    So the trend is still determinedly downwards.
    edit - got the date wrong. Now corrected.
    We all get the "fill in" data in 1 hour....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    Where would that leave under 30s who have had a first dose of it ?
    Saying they should still have it

    I give up. The UK is now going further than the EMA. Why?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,397
    edited April 2021
    Leon said:

    This is going to destroy vaccine acceptance in the EU, and maybe harm it badly in the UK

    What if they find the same in Pfizer, J&J, Novavax? Very rare side effects? Do we stop all vaccines, because 1 in 600,000 keel over?

    Nope because the risk is lower than the risk of covid.

    but if you've got a set of vaccines and some have side effects that only impact certain age groups due to drug combinations (i.e. the pill) it makes sense to use those vaccines on other patients and pick a different vaccine for that age group.

    Moderna is now available and will probably be a common one for those under 50 who have not already been vaccinated.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,356
    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/zerohedge/status/1379793646652887047?s=20

    If the EMA aren't banning it, then surely the UK won't

    I honestly remember reading the same 'news' a week, or a fortnight ago, or possibly both a week ago and a fortnight ago. Are we actually in a Groundhog Day loop, rather than simply feeling as if we are?
    I'm honestly not sure. I just keep counting down the days until I can get a haircut.
    In the original script for Groundhog Day, he was supposed to be stuck in there for 10,000 years.....
    Damn, that would have been pretty dark at the end.
    It was - the original script went alot further down the dark route. His suicide attempts were just the start....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    Where would that leave under 30s who have had a first dose of it ?
    Saying they should still have it

    I give up. The UK is now going further than the EMA. Why?
    If the report is true, its worth recalling that deaths in the UK have been reduced to virtually zero now. Not the case in Europe.

    What are the odds of an under-30 in the UK from getting sick and dying of Covid right now?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,421
    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    We have enough other vaccines that we can use AZ on people where the risks are closer to zero, and other vaccines for young women.

    Seems like the sensible thing to do, even if only likely to avoid a dozen blood clot deaths, as it shouldn't delay a single vaccination.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    This is going to destroy vaccine acceptance in the EU, and maybe harm it badly in the UK

    What if they find the same in Pfizer, J&J, Novavax? Very rare side effects? Do we stop all vaccines, because 1 in 600,000 keel over?

    Nope because the risk is lower than the risk of covid.
    Of course it is, so why the UK move (if true)?

    A very rare side effect is no reason to cease delivering an excellent vaccine DURING A TERRIBLE PLAGUE
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    Sounds as though there will be other vaccines available by the time under 30s are offered it, so it wouldn't be much of an issue.
    I thought Azn was going to be the workhorse for the developing world?
  • Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    Where would that leave under 30s who have had a first dose of it ?
    Saying they should still have it

    I give up. The UK is now going further than the EMA. Why?
    Listening to the EMA live press conference

    Has the UK announced their decision as it is not reported by Sky yet
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    Where would that leave under 30s who have had a first dose of it ?
    Saying they should still have it

    I give up. The UK is now going further than the EMA. Why?
    If the report is true, its worth recalling that deaths in the UK have been reduced to virtually zero now. Not the case in Europe.

    What are the odds of an under-30 in the UK from getting sick and dying of Covid right now?
    What's the odds of them getting offered a vaccine any time soon?!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,923
    MaxPB said:

    I don't understand how that scumbag only got 30 months in jail for killing that girl while speeding. He'll be out in a year. Don't think that sentence properly reflects the seriousness of the crime or that someone was killed. Should have got 10 years minimum no parole.

    What should be the penalty for speeding at 10mph above the limit? That's the problem.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    This is going to destroy vaccine acceptance in the EU, and maybe harm it badly in the UK

    What if they find the same in Pfizer, J&J, Novavax? Very rare side effects? Do we stop all vaccines, because 1 in 600,000 keel over?

    Nope because the risk is lower than the risk of covid.
    Of course it is, so why the UK move (if true)?

    A very rare side effect is no reason to cease delivering an excellent vaccine DURING A TERRIBLE PLAGUE
    The risks of Covid in the UK are a lot, lot lower than the risk of Covid in Europe. I trust the MHRA, if they've made a decision they'll have done so for the right reasons, if they haven't fair enough too.

    The odds of a healthy under-30 catching Covid and dying from it now in the UK must be very, very low.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Leon said:

    This is going to destroy vaccine acceptance in the EU, and maybe harm it badly in the UK

    What if they find the same in Pfizer, J&J, Novavax? Very rare side effects? Do we stop all vaccines, because 1 in 600,000 keel over?

    Surely all the people that needed the vaccines, I mean really needed them, have already been vaccinated. In most cases, double vaccinated.

    Do healthy people under 35 really need a covid vaccine at all?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,205

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    I'm no fan of this government (a gross understatement), but I don't share the doom and gloom of so many on here.

    The government set out a roadmap with which most broadly agreed, in the context of a horrendous death and illness toll in January/February. It's now April. Yes, it was a cautious roadmap - understandable given the history of the virus and some uncertainty about the efficacy of vaccines. That uncertainty has diminished massively, but not completely. As far as I can tell, the government is sticking to the roadmap and restrictions will be eased next week, and more significantly on May 17th and then in June. If the government backtracks on the roadmap without good reason I'll join the complainants, but there's no sign of that yet.

    Meanwhile, while the restrictions are a complete pain, they are increasingly less arduous, especially as people interpret them more sensibly. We've started having visitors to the house, because we know infections locally are now very low. The police have not knocked on our door, nor will they. I leave the house several times a day. Next Monday, my daughter has booked a table at a beachfront bar from 2pm - 8pm; we shall visit in shifts of six.

    I just wonder if a bit of patience would be wise. We should man the barricades if/when it is clear that conspiracies about extending lockdown and enforcing ID cards are imminent, but not while they are still theoretical risks that I don't actually think will happen.

    Yes, I'm broadly with you. I think the problem for me is that I don't trust the government, particularly given its predilection for following lumpen opinion over science and principle. Johnson want to be liked, and I don't think that's doing us any favours. If the road map is adhered to (inc international travel 17 May (in conjunction with traffic light system) ) then I'll heave a huge sigh of relief.
    My view is almost the same but slightly nuanced re: Boris. I think Boris is a metro liberal at heart and his instincts are towards liberty. The same cannot be said, sadly, for many others in his party –the Patels and the rump Red Wallers, who love a bit of authoritarian lock'em and flog'em. The Tory version of the Sandy Rentool Tendency if you will.
    I reflect northern working class opinion.

    North London handwringers should take note.
    By North London hand wringers, presumably you mean "people who live in north London (like Anabobazina) who have a different worldview to me?"
    He does. And it includes me too. In spades it does. But Sandy is a Red Wall voice and we don't have that many.
    I'm a Red Wall voice by birth and upbringing, but for the last 20 years have lived in the Epicentre of Right-On Wokeness.

    As a result, I have several identity crises.
    Exact same. I live in Hampstead now but I'm from the coalfields of South Yorkshire and both my g'dads were miners. 1st to go to uni. Etc etc. Somewhere on this journey I have lost my identity. Except not really, cos I'm not sure I had one.
    Being working class by origin but being able to live a middle class lifestyle does create a complex identity.

    Buying organic mushy peas from Waitrose. That sums it up.
    I don't do that specifically, but you're right. I both have affection for and at the same time dislike both working class and middle class attitudes - often at the same time. It's like trying to walk with your knickers round your ankles. Possible but so much easier if they weren't.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited April 2021

    MaxPB said:

    I don't understand how that scumbag only got 30 months in jail for killing that girl while speeding. He'll be out in a year. Don't think that sentence properly reflects the seriousness of the crime or that someone was killed. Should have got 10 years minimum no parole.

    What should be the penalty for speeding at 10mph above the limit? That's the problem.
    The penalty for killing someone should be very high.

    Plus he drove off from the scene and didn't call 999. Had he stopped at the scene, called 999 and attempted to give CPR then that should be mitigation - but for killing someone and driving off the penalty should be massive.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,397
    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    This is going to destroy vaccine acceptance in the EU, and maybe harm it badly in the UK

    What if they find the same in Pfizer, J&J, Novavax? Very rare side effects? Do we stop all vaccines, because 1 in 600,000 keel over?

    Nope because the risk is lower than the risk of covid.
    Of course it is, so why the UK move (if true)?

    A very rare side effect is no reason to cease delivering an excellent vaccine DURING A TERRIBLE PLAGUE
    Answered in my update to my post - as other options are now available there is little need to use AZ when there is a better option for that age group
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,356

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    Where would that leave under 30s who have had a first dose of it ?
    Saying they should still have it

    I give up. The UK is now going further than the EMA. Why?
    If the report is true, its worth recalling that deaths in the UK have been reduced to virtually zero now. Not the case in Europe.

    What are the odds of an under-30 in the UK from getting sick and dying of Covid right now?
    Well, CFR for 0-44 is something 0.04% at the moment.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    We have enough other vaccines that we can use AZ on people where the risks are closer to zero, and other vaccines for young women.

    Seems like the sensible thing to do, even if only likely to avoid a dozen blood clot deaths, as it shouldn't delay a single vaccination.
    It sends a terrible signal. It says Yes the vaccine can kill you

    Great. Well done

    Instead they should be emphasising how safe it is, but all medicines have side effects, and this is a very rare but serious one and should and will be monitored, nonetheless people should still take any vaccine offered, as the risk of death or serious harm from Covid is much greater

    it beggars belief that the EMA is being more sensible
  • Sky saying UK reporting those under 30 should be offered Pfizer or Moderna but not yet announced
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    Where would that leave under 30s who have had a first dose of it ?
    Saying they should still have it

    I give up. The UK is now going further than the EMA. Why?
    Listening to the EMA live press conference

    Has the UK announced their decision as it is not reported by Sky yet
    Confirmed by Sky
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,101
    edited April 2021
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    Where would that leave under 30s who have had a first dose of it ?
    Saying they should still have it

    I give up. The UK is now going further than the EMA. Why?
    Listening to the EMA live press conference

    Has the UK announced their decision as it is not reported by Sky yet
    Confirmed by Sky
    Yes but not officially yet though I expect it to be correct
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,765
    Leon said:

    This is going to destroy vaccine acceptance in the EU, and maybe harm it badly in the UK

    What if they find the same in Pfizer, J&J, Novavax? Very rare side effects? Do we stop all vaccines, because 1 in 600,000 keel over?

    All meds have very rare side effects. Some stuff I'm on includes 'sudden death' in the huge list of rare or unknown frequency reactions.

    If a GP gives me a med they may mention one or two extremely common effects e.g. 'oh this one might give you a headache for a day or two at first'. They have never in my experience started on about the rare and uncommon ones.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    Where would that leave under 30s who have had a first dose of it ?
    Saying they should still have it

    I give up. The UK is now going further than the EMA. Why?
    If the report is true, its worth recalling that deaths in the UK have been reduced to virtually zero now. Not the case in Europe.

    What are the odds of an under-30 in the UK from getting sick and dying of Covid right now?
    Well, CFR for 0-44 is something 0.04% at the moment.
    So 1/2,500 if infected.

    Though the odds of getting infected now must be rather low right now too too.

    If the clots disproportionately affect the young, Covid disproportionately doesn't, and case rates are very low, then its logical to use something else instead for them.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    I'm not sure it makes a difference though, the under 30s (more likely under 40s) are all going to get the new vaccines anyway. There really won't be much of a change.

    What it does mean is that the jab and go vaccine (J&J) might have the same issues as have already been noted in the US. I think the government was planning to have a vaccine drive using the J&J one for young people and using it as a gateway to be able to travel internationally in a "get jabbed, three weeks later you can fly" sort of way but with Moderna, Pfizer and Novavax there is a 5-6 week minimum time before full immunity is reached.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    This is going to destroy vaccine acceptance in the EU, and maybe harm it badly in the UK

    What if they find the same in Pfizer, J&J, Novavax? Very rare side effects? Do we stop all vaccines, because 1 in 600,000 keel over?

    Nope because the risk is lower than the risk of covid.
    Of course it is, so why the UK move (if true)?

    A very rare side effect is no reason to cease delivering an excellent vaccine DURING A TERRIBLE PLAGUE
    The risks of Covid in the UK are a lot, lot lower than the risk of Covid in Europe. I trust the MHRA, if they've made a decision they'll have done so for the right reasons, if they haven't fair enough too.

    The odds of a healthy under-30 catching Covid and dying from it now in the UK must be very, very low.
    30 cases of blood clot in 18 million doses

    If you get Covid age 18-29 the chances of death are higher, the chances of disease/hospitalisation are much higher, the chances of passing the disease on are obviously higher

    Nuts
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,236
    Here's that short segment wrt Moderna Rollout in West Wales.
    Charles said:

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    moonshine said:

    Stocky said:

    Since other people have been sharing what is worrying them, I hope people don't mind if I do the same.

    I haven't seen my grandparents in a year and I'm absolutely terrified that I might not ever see them again. I'm lucky enough to still have all my grandparents, my wife has lost all of hers, so I know full well that old people don't live forever. They've been vaccinated but its still illegal to see them until May - there's no guarantee they'll make it until May, I don't want to say it but something could happen at any time and it scares me. I haven't seen any of them since last February and in last couple of decades since returning to live in the UK I'd never gone more than a few weeks without visitng them.

    But we won't go to visit them until its legal, my wife won't let me for the same reason that she wouldn't have any drinks at all while pregnant - not expecting anything to go wrong if being sensible, but couldn't live with ourselves if something did and we'd broken the rules/guidance even if it was coincidental. But still . . . its heartbreaking to not know them and to not know if we ever will again, and to lose valuable time of my kids getting to know their great grandparents while they're still with us.

    Banning families by law from meeting up indoors while there's no excess deaths is absolutely inhumane and its making me quite emotional sorry. I can't support this, its wrong, wrong, wrong.

    But I don't know what to do, this is never something we should have ever had to face.

    Necessary visits to people in need has always been allowed AFAIK. And who cares if it isn't. I'd go and I think your wife is wrong.
    Philip, the whole bloody country was breaking the law this weekend, me included. No need to be a martyr.
    Not up to him, if his wife isn't comfortable breaking the rules.
    It’s a sign of how warped our society has become in just one year that you can say this.

    The decision rests with Philip and his grandparents, no one else.
    It’s a rare man who will ignore his wife’s heartfelt objections!
    That's all a bit

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    @ all those getting very down and anxious -

    Is next week not big for you?

    Outdoor pubs, indoor leisure, all shops.

    If you take that, plus bend a few (unpoliced) rules on meeting and mixing, are you not getting close to normality?

    No.

    I don't want to go to an outdoor pub. I want to visit my grandparents and they aren't healthy enough to be spending time outdoors in the cold. They've had both vaccines but it will still be illegal to visit them in their living room before 17 May. 😠
    I did say "bend a few (unpoliced) rules".
    Visiting others indoors isn't "bending the rules" it is "breaking the law".

    If the only solution is to break the law, then the law is an ass.
    You wouldn't break the speed limits to avoid being late for something important?
    On my own? Yes.

    With my wife and children in the car? No.
    Having set off a bit late you wouldn't drive 35 in a 30 so as to drop your kids to school on time?

    Utter sanctimonious bullshit.

    Others might but I hardly believe a word you write about your private life. It's all transparent virtue-signalling.

    Sorry, Philip, but that's my take. You carry on though. It's all part of PB's rich mosaic.
    Bad example. Do you drive? I would think nothing of driving at 80-90 and higher on the motorway. I would definitely not speed in an urban area, by a school or not. There's a big difference.
    It was a good example. Yours is too. 85 on a motorway. We almost all do that sometimes. We almost all do 35 in a 30 sometimes too. How do I know this? Because I do and so does everybody I know. It's how it is. Hardly anybody religiously complies with all laws all of the time, but from this it does not follow that all such laws should be scrapped. This is the point I seek to make. Have in fact now made.
    Everybody you know speeds in urban environments? Is this some of that @ydoethur every teacher is planning on leaving the profession in the next two years PB hyperbole?

    Aside from the fact that you must have some scintillating dinner parties to discuss speeding in built-up zones, I really don't think that too many people do speed in such places. Dual carriageways, motorways, country roads all yes. In town in 30mph zones? Nuh-huh.
    it is almost impossible not to go up to 35mph on an empty Spaniard's Road, in Hampstead. Every Londoner with a car has done this
    Irrelevant Trivia of the Day.

    The Navy of Spain is still called the Spanish Armada.
    Isn't that just because "armada" is basically just Spanish for "navy"?

    I don't really get what's surprising about that fact. I mean the Royal Navy is still called the Royal Navy.

    Also, I don't think what we call the Spanish Armada meaning the 1588 fleet was called that in Spain as it wasn't the whole of the Spanish Navy (although it was a lot of ships). I believe it was called (ironically) the Great & Fortunate Armada.
    Probably. Not one that I had noted, however.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Sky now saying the roadmap is pushed back. Fantastic
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    Leon said:

    Sky now saying the roadmap is pushed back. Fantastic

    ?! Noone ex G6 under 30 was likely to have the vaccine before 20th June anyway lol
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    I'm not sure it makes a difference though, the under 30s (more likely under 40s) are all going to get the new vaccines anyway. There really won't be much of a change.

    What it does mean is that the jab and go vaccine (J&J) might have the same issues as have already been noted in the US. I think the government was planning to have a vaccine drive using the J&J one for young people and using it as a gateway to be able to travel internationally in a "get jabbed, three weeks later you can fly" sort of way but with Moderna, Pfizer and Novavax there is a 5-6 week minimum time before full immunity is reached.
    Roadmap extended. Sky says. They are now expecting a lot of young people already jabbed to refuse a second jab, so they will have to start again

    I do not understand. Either the side effects are much more troubling than they admit, or they have all gone insane
  • I think it is important to actually listen to the UK regulators announcement when it is made and the language used

    The present discussion is in light of the expected recommendations
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Sky now saying the roadmap is pushed back. Fantastic

    ?! Noone ex G6 under 30 was likely to have the vaccine before 20th June anyway lol
    What if all the under 30s already jabbed say no to the 2nd jab. What if the remaining oldsters refuse, this is all about human behaviour
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Leon said:

    Sky now saying the roadmap is pushed back. Fantastic

    careful. Are they citing a government source for that?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    My 29 year old colleague had AZ. And survived.

    She has discovered a good way to avoid the blood clot risk from the birth control pill. Lesbianism.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    Here's Penfold and his pals
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    The roadmap shouldnt be harmed too much as come July when the under 30s get jabbed we'll have moderna, novavax and maybe even J&J. As someone in the 30-40 category Id happily get AZ tomorrow if offered it!
  • Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    I'm not sure it makes a difference though, the under 30s (more likely under 40s) are all going to get the new vaccines anyway. There really won't be much of a change.

    What it does mean is that the jab and go vaccine (J&J) might have the same issues as have already been noted in the US. I think the government was planning to have a vaccine drive using the J&J one for young people and using it as a gateway to be able to travel internationally in a "get jabbed, three weeks later you can fly" sort of way but with Moderna, Pfizer and Novavax there is a 5-6 week minimum time before full immunity is reached.
    Roadmap extended. Sky says. They are now expecting a lot of young people already jabbed to refuse a second jab, so they will have to start again

    I do not understand. Either the side effects are much more troubling than they admit, or they have all gone insane
    Press conference Live now

    Maybe let's listen to them rather than Sky speculation
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    I'm no fan of this government (a gross understatement), but I don't share the doom and gloom of so many on here.

    The government set out a roadmap with which most broadly agreed, in the context of a horrendous death and illness toll in January/February. It's now April. Yes, it was a cautious roadmap - understandable given the history of the virus and some uncertainty about the efficacy of vaccines. That uncertainty has diminished massively, but not completely. As far as I can tell, the government is sticking to the roadmap and restrictions will be eased next week, and more significantly on May 17th and then in June. If the government backtracks on the roadmap without good reason I'll join the complainants, but there's no sign of that yet.

    Meanwhile, while the restrictions are a complete pain, they are increasingly less arduous, especially as people interpret them more sensibly. We've started having visitors to the house, because we know infections locally are now very low. The police have not knocked on our door, nor will they. I leave the house several times a day. Next Monday, my daughter has booked a table at a beachfront bar from 2pm - 8pm; we shall visit in shifts of six.

    I just wonder if a bit of patience would be wise. We should man the barricades if/when it is clear that conspiracies about extending lockdown and enforcing ID cards are imminent, but not while they are still theoretical risks that I don't actually think will happen.

    Yes, I'm broadly with you. I think the problem for me is that I don't trust the government, particularly given its predilection for following lumpen opinion over science and principle. Johnson want to be liked, and I don't think that's doing us any favours. If the road map is adhered to (inc international travel 17 May (in conjunction with traffic light system) ) then I'll heave a huge sigh of relief.
    My view is almost the same but slightly nuanced re: Boris. I think Boris is a metro liberal at heart and his instincts are towards liberty. The same cannot be said, sadly, for many others in his party –the Patels and the rump Red Wallers, who love a bit of authoritarian lock'em and flog'em. The Tory version of the Sandy Rentool Tendency if you will.
    I reflect northern working class opinion.

    North London handwringers should take note.
    By North London hand wringers, presumably you mean "people who live in north London (like Anabobazina) who have a different worldview to me?"
    He does. And it includes me too. In spades it does. But Sandy is a Red Wall voice and we don't have that many.
    I'm a Red Wall voice by birth and upbringing, but for the last 20 years have lived in the Epicentre of Right-On Wokeness.

    As a result, I have several identity crises.
    Exact same. I live in Hampstead now but I'm from the coalfields of South Yorkshire and both my g'dads were miners. 1st to go to uni. Etc etc. Somewhere on this journey I have lost my identity. Except not really, cos I'm not sure I had one.
    If being a 'Somewhere' means I had to continue to live in the shit northern satellite town that I spent much of my childhood in, I prefer being a North London 'Nowhere'.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    This is going to destroy vaccine acceptance in the EU, and maybe harm it badly in the UK

    What if they find the same in Pfizer, J&J, Novavax? Very rare side effects? Do we stop all vaccines, because 1 in 600,000 keel over?

    Nope because the risk is lower than the risk of covid.
    Of course it is, so why the UK move (if true)?

    A very rare side effect is no reason to cease delivering an excellent vaccine DURING A TERRIBLE PLAGUE
    The risks of Covid in the UK are a lot, lot lower than the risk of Covid in Europe. I trust the MHRA, if they've made a decision they'll have done so for the right reasons, if they haven't fair enough too.

    The odds of a healthy under-30 catching Covid and dying from it now in the UK must be very, very low.
    30 cases of blood clot in 18 million doses

    If you get Covid age 18-29 the chances of death are higher, the chances of disease/hospitalisation are much higher, the chances of passing the disease on are obviously higher

    Nuts
    I guess the rationale is that it isn't AZ or no jab, it is AZ or another vaccine. Different evaluation.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,671
    edited April 2021
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    I'm not sure it makes a difference though, the under 30s (more likely under 40s) are all going to get the new vaccines anyway. There really won't be much of a change.

    What it does mean is that the jab and go vaccine (J&J) might have the same issues as have already been noted in the US. I think the government was planning to have a vaccine drive using the J&J one for young people and using it as a gateway to be able to travel internationally in a "get jabbed, three weeks later you can fly" sort of way but with Moderna, Pfizer and Novavax there is a 5-6 week minimum time before full immunity is reached.
    Roadmap extended. Sky says. They are now expecting a lot of young people already jabbed to refuse a second jab, so they will have to start again

    I do not understand. Either the side effects are much more troubling than they admit, or they have all gone insane
    Why would they have to 'start again'? Couldn't they just give them a Moderna or Novavax jab as a mixed mode second dose?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,356
    edited April 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Sky now saying the roadmap is pushed back. Fantastic

    ?! Noone ex G6 under 30 was likely to have the vaccine before 20th June anyway lol
    30-16 is 12.5 million for England
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Van Tam setting us up for bad news
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    AZ fans please explain

    Under 30s in England will be offered an alternative to Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    AZ fans please explain

    Under 30s in England will be offered an alternative to Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine

    Because our regulators have gone nuts
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    AZ fans please explain

    Under 30s in England will be offered an alternative to Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine

    Because there are alternatives. Are you saying we shouldn't use AZ at all or something?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    EMA saying doctors should warn of "very rare side effects" of AZ, no talk of a ban yet

    However UK likely to restrict it for under 30s - Sky

    This is ridiculous; the risks are tiny

    Where would that leave under 30s who have had a first dose of it ?
    Saying they should still have it

    I give up. The UK is now going further than the EMA. Why?
    Have we rejoined the EU or summat? :lol:
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    This is great news for the billions of people worldwide who were relying on not-for-profit AZ, the vaccine workhorse of the planet

    Most of them will now refuse. AZ is finished
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870

    My 29 year old colleague had AZ. And survived.

    She has discovered a good way to avoid the blood clot risk from the birth control pill. Lesbianism.

    She also needs to avoid syringes and pickle jars :lol:
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    This is going to destroy vaccine acceptance in the EU, and maybe harm it badly in the UK

    What if they find the same in Pfizer, J&J, Novavax? Very rare side effects? Do we stop all vaccines, because 1 in 600,000 keel over?

    Nope because the risk is lower than the risk of covid.
    Of course it is, so why the UK move (if true)?

    A very rare side effect is no reason to cease delivering an excellent vaccine DURING A TERRIBLE PLAGUE
    The risks of Covid in the UK are a lot, lot lower than the risk of Covid in Europe. I trust the MHRA, if they've made a decision they'll have done so for the right reasons, if they haven't fair enough too.

    The odds of a healthy under-30 catching Covid and dying from it now in the UK must be very, very low.
    30 cases of blood clot in 18 million doses

    If you get Covid age 18-29 the chances of death are higher, the chances of disease/hospitalisation are much higher, the chances of passing the disease on are obviously higher

    Nuts
    Not nuts.

    You can't compare the odds of getting injected with the odds of dying if injected with the odds of dying if infected, that's incorrect.

    If you are injected you are definitely injected so definitely at risk of whatever side effects there are (which are potentially higher amongst the young).

    If you are not injected, you might not get infected. You might have already been infected and already be immune, you might get a different vaccine, or you might simply be lucky enough to never be infected. So you need to multiple the odds of what happens if you get sick, with the odds of getting sick.

    For vaccination its simply Pr (Vaccine.Risk)

    For not using the vaccine its Pr (△ Covid.InfectionOdds) * Pr (Covid.InfectionRisk)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,923

    MaxPB said:

    I don't understand how that scumbag only got 30 months in jail for killing that girl while speeding. He'll be out in a year. Don't think that sentence properly reflects the seriousness of the crime or that someone was killed. Should have got 10 years minimum no parole.

    What should be the penalty for speeding at 10mph above the limit? That's the problem.
    The penalty for killing someone should be very high.

    Plus he drove off from the scene and didn't call 999. Had he stopped at the scene, called 999 and attempted to give CPR then that should be mitigation - but for killing someone and driving off the penalty should be massive.
    The trouble is that the difference in penalties between doing 10mph over the limit with and without killing someone is vast. Ironically, this might even incentivise driving off. How do we arrange penalties so that speeding without killing someone is as serious as firing a pistol at someone but missing?

    But that is how a lawyer would think. Every problem needs a new law. The real question is how do we change behaviour. How do we persuade people to drive safely?
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    I'm no fan of this government (a gross understatement), but I don't share the doom and gloom of so many on here.

    The government set out a roadmap with which most broadly agreed, in the context of a horrendous death and illness toll in January/February. It's now April. Yes, it was a cautious roadmap - understandable given the history of the virus and some uncertainty about the efficacy of vaccines. That uncertainty has diminished massively, but not completely. As far as I can tell, the government is sticking to the roadmap and restrictions will be eased next week, and more significantly on May 17th and then in June. If the government backtracks on the roadmap without good reason I'll join the complainants, but there's no sign of that yet.

    Meanwhile, while the restrictions are a complete pain, they are increasingly less arduous, especially as people interpret them more sensibly. We've started having visitors to the house, because we know infections locally are now very low. The police have not knocked on our door, nor will they. I leave the house several times a day. Next Monday, my daughter has booked a table at a beachfront bar from 2pm - 8pm; we shall visit in shifts of six.

    I just wonder if a bit of patience would be wise. We should man the barricades if/when it is clear that conspiracies about extending lockdown and enforcing ID cards are imminent, but not while they are still theoretical risks that I don't actually think will happen.

    Yes, I'm broadly with you. I think the problem for me is that I don't trust the government, particularly given its predilection for following lumpen opinion over science and principle. Johnson want to be liked, and I don't think that's doing us any favours. If the road map is adhered to (inc international travel 17 May (in conjunction with traffic light system) ) then I'll heave a huge sigh of relief.
    My view is almost the same but slightly nuanced re: Boris. I think Boris is a metro liberal at heart and his instincts are towards liberty. The same cannot be said, sadly, for many others in his party –the Patels and the rump Red Wallers, who love a bit of authoritarian lock'em and flog'em. The Tory version of the Sandy Rentool Tendency if you will.
    I reflect northern working class opinion.

    North London handwringers should take note.
    By North London hand wringers, presumably you mean "people who live in north London (like Anabobazina) who have a different worldview to me?"
    He does. And it includes me too. In spades it does. But Sandy is a Red Wall voice and we don't have that many.
    I'm a Red Wall voice by birth and upbringing, but for the last 20 years have lived in the Epicentre of Right-On Wokeness.

    As a result, I have several identity crises.
    Exact same. I live in Hampstead now but I'm from the coalfields of South Yorkshire and both my g'dads were miners. 1st to go to uni. Etc etc. Somewhere on this journey I have lost my identity. Except not really, cos I'm not sure I had one.
    Being working class by origin but being able to live a middle class lifestyle does create a complex identity.

    Buying organic mushy peas from Waitrose. That sums it up.
    My wife, who is a strong labour supporter, but privately educated very middle class. My observations, as a young urchin from a rough council estate..

    - When go on holiday middle class people put their dogs in kennels, instead of farming them off to friends...
    - At some point gone on holiday to a Centre Parcs, but would be horrified at the thought of going to Butlins.
    - Believe that Frey Bentos pies are the type of food poor people eat and we shouldnt judge their bad decisions.
    - A knife and fork must be placed on a plate together in parallel and at a slight angle when you've finished your meal.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Benefits continue to outweigh the risks.

    Saying the "right" thing.
This discussion has been closed.