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Vaccine passports – the first major political divide in the fight against COVID? – politicalbetting.

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,612

    kle4 said:

    Got another leaflet from the LDs today for the locals, 3 already (2 in one go admittedly). Very disappointed that there was only a bar chart on one of them, and it is both directly relevant to the election taking place, and entirely correct in its proportions.

    Good lord, is nothing sacred?
    It seems that, along with a former leader, the tribal knowledge in the LibDems of how to construct misleading statistical analyses has been appropriated by Facebook.
  • her hysterical announcements on many things are a joy to behold, with her fans hanging on her every word. Shes a left wing toby young with a phd
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    COVID is clearly structurally racist.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    kle4 said:

    Got another leaflet from the LDs today for the locals, 3 already (2 in one go admittedly). Very disappointed that there was only a bar chart on one of them, and it is both directly relevant to the election taking place, and entirely correct in its proportions.

    Good lord, is nothing sacred?
    In all honesty it may be simply efficiency driving this sort of thing, which is all the better - it's probably quicker to create an accurate bar chart than an inaccurate one.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    Delusion is the only word for it. How to stop people like this having a voice so far over and above what their inadequate logic-circuit deserves?
  • Cookie said:

    People have become inured to wails of racism. When everything is denounced as racist, nothing is.

    That's why the anti gets upped. The term 'white supremacist ' was really reserved for someone who rode horses in white sheets in the southern USA, rarely applied elsewhere. Now some see them everywhere.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,673

    COVID is clearly structurally racist.
    FFS now viruses are racist, is there anything left on the planet that is not racist nowadays.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,123
    Please tell me she has nothing to do with Oxford or indeed any university anywhere.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,341
    It all calls out for sober evaluation. No idea if the facts are correct, but if they are there are no obvious explanations with racist connotations, unless perhaps the good doctor wants to suggest that her medical sisters and brothers are giving preferential care to some and allowing others to die?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,123
    And another poll with the lead growing and well above 5% quoted yesterday as the typical lead. I've lost count.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    malcolmg said:

    COVID is clearly structurally racist.
    FFS now viruses are racist, is there anything left on the planet that is not racist nowadays.
    Racism perpetrated by non whites barely gets a mention
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,341
    Stocky said:

    Delusion is the only word for it. How to stop people like this having a voice so far over and above what their inadequate logic-circuit deserves?
    Certainly Dr Sewell is being gaslighted by people with little sense of irony.

  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    On topic. Speculation about vaccine passports reminds me of similar about “No Deal” Brexit - a debate over something which is clearly not going to happen. The notion of an app is especially ludicrous. I mean. C’mon.

    As with “No Deal”, the government are happy to sponsor the debate because it works for them. If people think they’ll need the jab to access normality they are more likely to get the jab. There are also people who are nervous about safety coming out of the pandemic and this talk reassures them that Johnson is not in cavalier mode. That he’s taking things seriously. It sounds all prudent and competent and thoughtful. It looks good that he’s mulling these sorts of things. Boris cares. Gets a resounding “lol” from me but plenty out there don’t share my assessment of the PM.

    But, no, vaxports won’t be happening and neither should they. For international travel, yes, but other than that, no way. The point of the vaccination rollout is to create sufficient population immunity to end the pandemic in the UK and consign Covid to the ranks of those diseases we live with the risk of catching because the risk is low. When we arrive at this point the pay off must be that normal life returns. Having to prove vaccination status in order to do a whole host of routine activities such as go down the pub is decidedly not normal life. This is not (for me) about fretting that “the state” will using a vax ID to track my movements, I find all that sentiment paranoid and irrational, but more that it would be a complete faff and a waste of time and money, delivering no tangible benefit, and indeed potentially doing harm by causing exclusion and division.

    So it’s a no from me.

    You say "For international travel, yes" - do you differentiate between: a) the UK government insisting that UK citizens MUST have a vaccine passport in order to leave the country and b) UK citizens being able to carry adequate evidence of vaccination to show to the foreign authorities if required by that country?

    I see a massive difference - I am in favour of b) but not a).
    Yes - (a) is not on at all. But their return is a different matter. Maybe need controls there.
    A covid test maybe??
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    malcolmg said:

    COVID is clearly structurally racist.
    FFS now viruses are racist, is there anything left on the planet that is not racist nowadays.
    Only on this planet? There's a whole universe out there to consider, you Earth racist!
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    felix said:

    And another poll with the lead growing and well above 5% quoted yesterday as the typical lead. I've lost count.
    It does seem strange that certain polls aren't included
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Being serious, if that 95% is even closet to accurate it's a startling statistic even assuming the proportion of ethinic minority doctors is likely far higher than the general population and they are on the front line. I'm at a loss at such a figure.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,341
    edited April 2021
    felix said:

    And another poll with the lead growing and well above 5% quoted yesterday as the typical lead. I've lost count.
    Allowing margin of error, all the recent polls cluster round and are only consistent with Tory 42, Lab 35/36. This one is the same.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    edited April 2021
    Stocky said:

    Delusion is the only word for it. How to stop people like this having a voice so far over and above what their inadequate logic-circuit deserves?
    What we need are some numbers.

    Ah, I have checked the source. It is from April 2020, and comprises 19 doctors! Cherrypicking statistics indeed.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    algarkirk said:

    It all calls out for sober evaluation. No idea if the facts are correct, but if they are there are no obvious explanations with racist connotations, unless perhaps the good doctor wants to suggest that her medical sisters and brothers are giving preferential care to some and allowing others to die?
    I guess the suggestion is that minority doctors have fewer opportunities to avoid heavy exposure to the virus?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    COVID is clearly structurally racist.
    FFS now viruses are racist, is there anything left on the planet that is not racist nowadays.
    Racism perpetrated by non whites barely gets a mention
    That’s white supremacy, apparently.
    https://twitter.com/eugenegu/status/1376753301014732803?s=21
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2021
    kle4 said:

    Being serious, if that 95% is even closet to accurate it's a startling statistic even assuming the proportion of ethinic minority doctors is likely far higher than the general population and they are on the front line. I'm at a loss at such a figure.

    Well it would obviously point to a genetic component to how COVID effects different people, which wouldn't seem that surprising given it is true of other diseases.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,612
    algarkirk said:

    It all calls out for sober evaluation. No idea if the facts are correct, but if they are there are no obvious explanations with racist connotations, unless perhaps the good doctor wants to suggest that her medical sisters and brothers are giving preferential care to some and allowing others to die?
    There have already been several investigations into the differential rates of illness and death within the medical community from COVID. That it effected some ethnic minorities more than others is clear.

    One interesting piece of data was this that seen among consultants as well. So not just the downtrodden junior staff.

    As with many things about COVID, I have not heard of any definitive conclusions.

    One thing I wondered about was *where* they caught COVID. The assumption is that is was infection in hospital - but do we know that? Or is related to home structures?

    Foxy?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Floater said:
    Even Orkney and Shetland lost to the SNP? Truly would be the end of an era.
  • Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
    Good poll for SNP
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    edited April 2021
    Sean_F said:

    Stocky said:

    Delusion is the only word for it. How to stop people like this having a voice so far over and above what their inadequate logic-circuit deserves?
    What we need are some numbers.
    I'g guessing maybe 5% tops of the population in the deluded self-hating lefty camp but boy are they punching greater than 5%.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311

    COVID is clearly structurally racist.
    This is the madness of the situation. The people who wrote the report are apparently controversial as they had stated that in order to confirm institutional or structural bias they would have to see evidence rather than proclamation. There are multiple reasons why doctors who died of COVID were 95% from ethnic minorities. It should not be controversial to state that some of the factors may be cultural or from personal choice. If there is evidence that the NHS is institutionally racist I am sure they would like to know and address any relevant issues
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
    Good poll for SNP
    They always are. Regrettably they range from good poll to embarrasingly dominant poll most days.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 948
    edited April 2021
    DavidL said:

    I don't see how people (i.e. the Government) can simultaneously argue that the vaccines are excellent in terms of effectiveness (particularly at reducing hospitalisation and death) and that take-up is also extremely high, much higher than had been hoped for, and yet vaccine passports are also still needed. There seems to be a failure of logic in that somewhere to me,

    Especially if you add to the mix of that the promise of removing all legal restrictions on social distancing on June 21 and also the promise that no such passports would be offered domestically until all the adult population had been offered a jab.

    I just don't see the inconsistency. Vaccination is such a good thing we want more of it. We want to encourage groups in our society who have been more resistant to comply. We want to incentivise them to comply.

    Vaccination is not an end in and of itself. It's purpose is to prevent spread of disease and illness and death from the disease.

    If there is sufficient take up to get strong herd immunity (which all the evidence suggests there will be), why should we worry about the 5% or so of people who don't want to be vaccinated.

    Vaccines, like pretty much all medication, have side effects - ie they aren't cost free to administer - I know several people who have had a week or so of feeling really rough after vaccination. My workplace has had far more lost time from vaccinations than anything to do with catching Covid or self-isolation etc. If (and it's a very big if) the German stuff about blood clots in young women from AZ is correct, I think that their chances of experiencing those sorts of clots are around the same order of magnitude as their chances of death if they catch Covid (both vanishingly small, but it's important to understand the relative risk).

    I think it's at least dubious, probably unethical, to heavily pressure groups at little or no risk from Covid to take a vaccine they don't need. I certainly won't be having one now as someone at negligible risk. When I'm in my 50s, I'll probably be jabbed if Covid is still a think - I'm not inherently anti-vax or anything, just don't see the cost/benefit calculation being in favour of a jab as a low risk individual in a society which will be well past the herd immunity threshold* by the time I'm offered a jab

    *the ONS survey earlier this week suggests we're almost there now.
  • sladeslade Posts: 1,921
    Excellent April 1st story in Liberal Democrat Voice. The Federal Annual Conference is to be held on cruise ship which will sail around the British Isles. Jane McDonald has been invited as a special guest.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    kamski said:

    algarkirk said:

    It all calls out for sober evaluation. No idea if the facts are correct, but if they are there are no obvious explanations with racist connotations, unless perhaps the good doctor wants to suggest that her medical sisters and brothers are giving preferential care to some and allowing others to die?
    I guess the suggestion is that minority doctors have fewer opportunities to avoid heavy exposure to the virus?
    So white doctors get first divs on PPE and can avod work on covid wards?

    Absolute bullshit

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    COVID is clearly structurally racist.
    FFS now viruses are racist, is there anything left on the planet that is not racist nowadays.
    Racism perpetrated by non whites barely gets a mention
    That’s white supremacy, apparently.
    https://twitter.com/eugenegu/status/1376753301014732803?s=21
    There's people out there who actually believe this bullshit, and some of them are dangerously close to the levers of power.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
    "Yes but the Scottish sub sample of a YouGov poll from 2 weeks ago shows a significant swing away from the SNP and therefore demonstrates that no material change has occurred since 2014 otherwise they'd be much further ahead. In any case Boris will rightly refuse any IndyRef2 in respect of the once in a generation referendum that happened in 2014."
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    slade said:

    Excellent April 1st story in Liberal Democrat Voice. The Federal Annual Conference is to be held on cruise ship which will sail around the British Isles. Jane McDonald has been invited as a special guest.

    Well, that would get the wife's vote :smiley:
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Still yet to receive any literature from the Lib Dems in my Lib Dem held ward on Newcastle City Council...

    I have had rubbish Labour literature however.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    kle4 said:

    Being serious, if that 95% is even closet to accurate it's a startling statistic even assuming the proportion of ethinic minority doctors is likely far higher than the general population and they are on the front line. I'm at a loss at such a figure.

    It's a figure from the very earliest stages of the pandemic, and represents 18 out of 19 doctor deaths.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,612

    algarkirk said:

    It all calls out for sober evaluation. No idea if the facts are correct, but if they are there are no obvious explanations with racist connotations, unless perhaps the good doctor wants to suggest that her medical sisters and brothers are giving preferential care to some and allowing others to die?
    There have already been several investigations into the differential rates of illness and death within the medical community from COVID. That it effected some ethnic minorities more than others is clear.

    One interesting piece of data was this that seen among consultants as well. So not just the downtrodden junior staff.

    As with many things about COVID, I have not heard of any definitive conclusions.

    One thing I wondered about was *where* they caught COVID. The assumption is that is was infection in hospital - but do we know that? Or is related to home structures?

    Foxy?
    Bit of digging on Google -

    https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1621
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2021

    algarkirk said:

    It all calls out for sober evaluation. No idea if the facts are correct, but if they are there are no obvious explanations with racist connotations, unless perhaps the good doctor wants to suggest that her medical sisters and brothers are giving preferential care to some and allowing others to die?
    There have already been several investigations into the differential rates of illness and death within the medical community from COVID. That it effected some ethnic minorities more than others is clear.

    One interesting piece of data was this that seen among consultants as well. So not just the downtrodden junior staff.

    As with many things about COVID, I have not heard of any definitive conclusions.

    One thing I wondered about was *where* they caught COVID. The assumption is that is was infection in hospital - but do we know that? Or is related to home structures?

    Foxy?
    Bit of digging on Google -

    https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1621
    ...Published 23 April 2020...so the couple of months into the pandemic.

    Sounds like the "dodgy doctor", the librarian from Northern Ireland, famed for his dodgy cherry picked stats, has some competition these days for that title.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849
    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    So the people who don’t like the report disagree with the people who do like the report. It’s “confrontational” to be told that someone disagrees with you I guess?

    But not confrontational to sound off to the press?
    The background of some of the people selected for the Commission pretty much predestined its daft conclusions. One member has views on foreign aid so extreme that Bill Gates reviewed her book as "promoting evil". Another is openly partisan in anti-Labour politics. A third talked about gay people as "tortured queens".

    This editorial summarises the views of many of us, not only those who routinely expound on these issues.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/31/the-guardian-view-on-boris-johnsons-race-review-you-cannot-be-serious

    It's simply a missed opportunity. It is clearly true that there are many causes of inequality, not only racism But it is laughable to dismiss it, since it alienates ordinary people who experience everyday hassle for being black - being routinely stopped to prove you own your car is a well-known example. It's one thing to put up with systematic unfairness without letting it dominate your life. It's something else for a Government-appointed body to tell you the problem doesn't exist.
    Yes, it's fascinating how many people have such strong views on a report they haven't read.
    The only acceptable report, in the eyes of some campaigners, would be one that brands modern Britain as an oppressive hellhole.

    And, the idea that this report "glorifies slavery" is completely off the wall.
    It doesn't glorify slavery. That's an exaggeration. It just tries to find the positives. It's crass and inappropriate in a report such as this - but I know why they've done it.

    Imagine you're giving a motivational pep talk to a black child. You will tell them not to assume things are rigged against them. Don't wallow in victimhood, it helps nobody. Ok, there might still be a degree of racism about, but things are better these days, so get out there, work hard, don't take no for an answer, you are as good as anyone and you can succeed. Don't go thinking you can't.

    That's great. It's the right message.

    But what people on the unthinking 'ra ra' right often do is conflate this with what you should say about the situation at society level. That racism should be downplayed - or "not obsessed about" - because otherwise people will use it an excuse for not trying and not sorting out certain other problems which have little to do with race.

    I see this an awful lot with many of the posters on here.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    Its a stark stat, but needs more detail such as (a) what proportion of doctors are from ethnic minorities (I'd expect more than the background population) (b) what pre-existing conditions did they have (some ethnic populations are more prone to certain risk factors) (c) where did they catch Covid (it may not have been in hospital or primary care, covid was pretty widespread in Feb and Mar 2020).
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311

    algarkirk said:

    It all calls out for sober evaluation. No idea if the facts are correct, but if they are there are no obvious explanations with racist connotations, unless perhaps the good doctor wants to suggest that her medical sisters and brothers are giving preferential care to some and allowing others to die?
    There have already been several investigations into the differential rates of illness and death within the medical community from COVID. That it effected some ethnic minorities more than others is clear.

    One interesting piece of data was this that seen among consultants as well. So not just the downtrodden junior staff.

    As with many things about COVID, I have not heard of any definitive conclusions.

    One thing I wondered about was *where* they caught COVID. The assumption is that is was infection in hospital - but do we know that? Or is related to home structures?

    Foxy?
    There are multiple possible cultural reasons.

    Are these doctors based more in low income areas, do they serve communities with poor engagement with government messages, are they more closely linked to or part of religious communities, or other cross community infection points? Do they live in multigenerational households, or are they expected to visit these?


  • kle4 said:

    Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
    Good poll for SNP
    They always are. Regrettably they range from good poll to embarrasingly dominant poll most days.
    I expect Sturgeon to have any overall majority on her own and will negate Salmond’s efforts anyway

    The more interesting point will be how support for independence ebbs and flows over the next couple of years
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,341

    COVID is clearly structurally racist.
    This is the madness of the situation. The people who wrote the report are apparently controversial as they had stated that in order to confirm institutional or structural bias they would have to see evidence rather than proclamation. There are multiple reasons why doctors who died of COVID were 95% from ethnic minorities. It should not be controversial to state that some of the factors may be cultural or from personal choice. If there is evidence that the NHS is institutionally racist I am sure they would like to know and address any relevant issues
    The concept of institutional racism, while not without meaning, is dangerous on its own. It is often used a
    mechanism to shift responsibility.

    For example, it isn't possible for schools to be 'IR' without teachers being racist.
    It isn't possible for the NHS to be 'IR' without doctors and nurses being racist.
    It isn't possible for the Met to be 'IR' without police officers being racist etc.

    A bit more individual humility might help.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    her hysterical announcements on many things are a joy to behold, with her fans hanging on her every word. Shes a left wing toby young with a phd
    She was also livid with our 12 week dose strategy which she's now gone quiet on. One wonders how she looks after her patients given how much of the day she dedicates to internetting.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    58% of voters as a whole support vaccine passports, as do 64% of Tory voters, 55% of Labour voters and 60% of LD voters.

    So Starmer and Davey are on the wrong side not only of voters as a whole on this but even their own party's voters

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1377558150660943873?s=20

    Good for them. It may not help them, and people may (indeed, on those numbers, do) disagree, but it shows them trying to lead and convince.

    As Guy Verhofstadt once said:

    Most of the political leaders [in continental Europe] are simply following nationalist and populist rhetoric, and that is for me not a democracy. A democracy, in my opinion, is a political leader developing a vision and then trying to convince the public opinion to follow his vision, and not what is happening now


    (People do tend to forget the 'trying to convince the public to follow' bit, which is important when not, well dictating)
    Yep I look a lot more favourably upon both Starmer and Davey as a result of their stand on this.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,612
    theProle said:

    DavidL said:

    I don't see how people (i.e. the Government) can simultaneously argue that the vaccines are excellent in terms of effectiveness (particularly at reducing hospitalisation and death) and that take-up is also extremely high, much higher than had been hoped for, and yet vaccine passports are also still needed. There seems to be a failure of logic in that somewhere to me,

    Especially if you add to the mix of that the promise of removing all legal restrictions on social distancing on June 21 and also the promise that no such passports would be offered domestically until all the adult population had been offered a jab.

    I just don't see the inconsistency. Vaccination is such a good thing we want more of it. We want to encourage groups in our society who have been more resistant to comply. We want to incentivise them to comply.

    Vaccination is not an end in and of itself. It's purpose is to prevent spread of disease and illness and death from the disease.

    If there is sufficient take up to get strong herd immunity (which all the evidence suggests there will be), why should we worry about the 5% or so of people who don't want to be vaccinated.

    Vaccines, like pretty much all medication, have side effects - ie they aren't cost free to administer - I know several people who have had a week or so of feeling really rough after vaccination. My workplace has had far more lost time from vaccinations than anything to do with catching Covid or self-isolation etc. If (and it's a very big if) the German stuff about blood clots in young women from AZ is correct, I think that their chances of experiencing those sorts of clots are around the same order of magnitude as their chances of death if they catch Covid (both vanishingly small, but it's important to understand the relative risk).

    I think it's at least dubious, probably unethical, to heavily pressure groups at little or no risk from Covid to take a vaccine they don't need. I certainly won't be having one now as someone at negligible risk. When I'm in my 50s, I'll probably be jabbed if Covid is still a think - I'm not inherently anti-vax or anything, just don't see the cost/benefit calculation being in favour of a jab as a low risk individual in a society which will be well past the herd immunity threshold* by the time I'm offered a jab

    *the ONS survey earlier this week suggests we're almost there now.
    The ONS survey does not suggest we are past the herd immunity "threshold"

    Unless you mean by "threshold" the level required to have some effect on the transmission of the virus.

    We have a considerable way to go on that - probably would need a 70-80% take-up in the population as a whole to get to the position where COVID would die out, buy itself, without any restrictions.

    What is critical here is that the vaccination doesn't just effect what happens to you, the vaccinated person. It effects your probability of passing COVID to someone else. Which is what herd immunity is about.

    Which is why vaccinating everyone is important. A 90% take-up in the adult population would be a 73% take-up in the population as a whole.

    This in turn is why the Pfizer trial for vaccinating children is good news - if we can vaccinate children down to 5 as well, a 90% take up becomes an 84% vaccination rate for the population as a whole.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Brom said:

    her hysterical announcements on many things are a joy to behold, with her fans hanging on her every word. Shes a left wing toby young with a phd
    She was also livid with our 12 week dose strategy which she's now gone quiet on. One wonders how she looks after her patients given how much of the day she dedicates to internetting.
    These people remind of fake mediums, nobody holds them to account for all the times they have banged on about just how terrible / flawed something is, only for their claims to turn out to be totally wrong...by the time they are proved wrong they have moved onto the next outrage.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    So the people who don’t like the report disagree with the people who do like the report. It’s “confrontational” to be told that someone disagrees with you I guess?

    But not confrontational to sound off to the press?
    The background of some of the people selected for the Commission pretty much predestined its daft conclusions. One member has views on foreign aid so extreme that Bill Gates reviewed her book as "promoting evil". Another is openly partisan in anti-Labour politics. A third talked about gay people as "tortured queens".

    This editorial summarises the views of many of us, not only those who routinely expound on these issues.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/31/the-guardian-view-on-boris-johnsons-race-review-you-cannot-be-serious

    It's simply a missed opportunity. It is clearly true that there are many causes of inequality, not only racism But it is laughable to dismiss it, since it alienates ordinary people who experience everyday hassle for being black - being routinely stopped to prove you own your car is a well-known example. It's one thing to put up with systematic unfairness without letting it dominate your life. It's something else for a Government-appointed body to tell you the problem doesn't exist.
    Yes, it's fascinating how many people have such strong views on a report they haven't read.
    The only acceptable report, in the eyes of some campaigners, would be one that brands modern Britain as an oppressive hellhole.

    And, the idea that this report "glorifies slavery" is completely off the wall.
    It doesn't glorify slavery. That's an exaggeration. It just tries to find the positives. It's crass and inappropriate in a report such as this - but I know why they've done it.

    Imagine you're giving a motivational pep talk to a black child. You will tell them not to assume things are rigged against them. Don't wallow in victimhood, it helps nobody. Ok, there might still be a degree of racism about, but things are better these days, so get out there, work hard, don't take no for an answer, you are as good as anyone and you can succeed. Don't go thinking you can't.

    That's great. It's the right message.

    But what people on the unthinking 'ra ra' right often do is conflate this with what you should say about the situation at society level. That racism should be downplayed - or "not obsessed about" - because otherwise people will use it an excuse for not trying and not sorting out certain other problems which have little to do with race.

    I see this an awful lot with many of the posters on here.
    The problem that I see clearly is that for some evidence doesn't matter. If you see everything through a prism of oppression then even the innocuous takes on a sinister undertone.

    I once got accused of being rude to someone I was in disagreement with as I signed off my email 'Regards'. The fact that I signed off every email I sent that way - it was part of my email signature - didn't even resolve the issue. People have often decided on their support agreement based on the person not the facts.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2021
    AlistairM said:
    38% rejoin is still very high.....EU willing to throw your granny under the bus, while happy to cozy up to Russia and China...and still 38%.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,136
    kle4 said:

    Floater said:
    Even Orkney and Shetland lost to the SNP? Truly would be the end of an era.
    Indeed. We've been in the Tertiary, now it's the Anthropocene, and we'd need a new geological term.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    AlistairM said:
    38% rejoin is still very high.....EU willing to throw your granny under the bus, while happy to cozy up to Russia and China...and still 38%.
    Leave only won by 4%, now oppose rejoining the EU leads by 8%
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Floater said:

    kamski said:

    algarkirk said:

    It all calls out for sober evaluation. No idea if the facts are correct, but if they are there are no obvious explanations with racist connotations, unless perhaps the good doctor wants to suggest that her medical sisters and brothers are giving preferential care to some and allowing others to die?
    I guess the suggestion is that minority doctors have fewer opportunities to avoid heavy exposure to the virus?
    So white doctors get first divs on PPE and can avod work on covid wards?

    Absolute bullshit

    She probably thinks this is represenative of NHS management.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQnEBSwdAXw
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    HYUFD said:

    AlistairM said:
    38% rejoin is still very high.....EU willing to throw your granny under the bus, while happy to cozy up to Russia and China...and still 38%.
    Leave only won by 4%, now oppose rejoining the EU leads by 8%
    Yes but this is peak EU are making themselves look absolutely terrible.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited April 2021

    Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
    It is not even a Holyrood poll, though of course it does not matter even if the SNP got 100% there will be no legal indyref2 allowed by this UK Tory government. 2014 was a once in a generation vote
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    Brom said:

    her hysterical announcements on many things are a joy to behold, with her fans hanging on her every word. Shes a left wing toby young with a phd
    She was also livid with our 12 week dose strategy which she's now gone quiet on. One wonders how she looks after her patients given how much of the day she dedicates to internetting.
    To be fair there is more to discuss on that regarding the balance of risks.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,341
    edited April 2021
    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Floater said:
    Even Orkney and Shetland lost to the SNP? Truly would be the end of an era.
    Indeed. We've been in the Tertiary, now it's the Anthropocene, and we'd need a new geological term.
    Scotland has its very own doesn't it: Jurassic

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287

    HYUFD said:

    AlistairM said:
    38% rejoin is still very high.....EU willing to throw your granny under the bus, while happy to cozy up to Russia and China...and still 38%.
    Leave only won by 4%, now oppose rejoining the EU leads by 8%
    Yes but this is peak EU are making themselves look absolutely terrible.
    Being seen in their true colours...
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Here's what the EU is planning. It looks very sensible. (If the UK had any sense, which it doesn't, we'd join their scheme).

    https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/1377561374822440960
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    HYUFD said:

    Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
    It is not even a Holyrood poll, though of course it does not matter even if the SNP got 100% there will be no legal indyref2 allowed by this UK Tory government. 2014 was a once in a generation vote
    I think that's a bingo from me.
  • CursingStoneCursingStone Posts: 421
    edited April 2021
    felix said:

    Please tell me she has nothing to do with Oxford or indeed any university anywhere.
    Cambridge also not holding its reputation well. Posting such inflammatory stuff would probably require the assistance of the aforementioned Toby Young's Free Speech Union. That poor woman who acted for Disney got fired for a clumsy holocaust comparison which was little more than a less articulate "First they came for the ........ ".

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1377578586689961986?s=20
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080

    Brom said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Middle class white guy off twitter thinking he understands race better than Tony Sewell. Not a great look.
    Problem is, many black and mixed race people also disagree with Tony Sewell. I don’t get the impression from conversations with my family and friends, as well as my social media feeds that he has credibility within black communities in this country.
    I think it is an excellent debate to have, and will get around to reading the report. That some of the single issue campaigners are getting a bit of pushback is excellent. It will help keep them honest.

    On this report it is quite noticeable that the people complaining have pivoted away from evidence to anecdotes aka "Lived Experience".

  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Sean_F said:

    Stocky said:

    Delusion is the only word for it. How to stop people like this having a voice so far over and above what their inadequate logic-circuit deserves?
    What we need are some numbers.

    Ah, I have checked the source. It is from April 2020, and comprises 19 doctors! Cherrypicking statistics indeed.
    Get out of here with your facts.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    AlistairM said:
    38% rejoin is still very high.....EU willing to throw your granny under the bus, while happy to cozy up to Russia and China...and still 38%.
    Leave only won by 4%, now oppose rejoining the EU leads by 8%
    Yes but this is peak EU are making themselves look absolutely terrible.
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1377361545785663490?s=20

    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1377361674324254721?s=20
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited April 2021

    felix said:

    Please tell me she has nothing to do with Oxford or indeed any university anywhere.
    Cambridge also not holding its reputation well. Posting such inflammatory stuff would probably require the assistance of the aforementioned Toby Young's Free Speech Union. That poor woman who acted for Disney got fired for a clumsy holocaust comparison which was little more than a less articulate "First they came for the ........ ".

    https://twitter.com/PriyamvadaGopal/status/1377563423756664832?s=20
    The rage... the bitter, bitter rage :lol:
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    edited April 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
    It is not even a Holyrood poll, though of course it does not matter even if the SNP got 100% there will be no legal indyref2 allowed by this UK Tory government. 2014 was a once in a generation vote
    I expect a sec 30 request from the Scottish Parliament in 2022 and also expect Boris to have more sense than your inflammatory views and either commission a review or put it to a free vote in the HOC
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,612

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    So the people who don’t like the report disagree with the people who do like the report. It’s “confrontational” to be told that someone disagrees with you I guess?

    But not confrontational to sound off to the press?
    The background of some of the people selected for the Commission pretty much predestined its daft conclusions. One member has views on foreign aid so extreme that Bill Gates reviewed her book as "promoting evil". Another is openly partisan in anti-Labour politics. A third talked about gay people as "tortured queens".

    This editorial summarises the views of many of us, not only those who routinely expound on these issues.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/31/the-guardian-view-on-boris-johnsons-race-review-you-cannot-be-serious

    It's simply a missed opportunity. It is clearly true that there are many causes of inequality, not only racism But it is laughable to dismiss it, since it alienates ordinary people who experience everyday hassle for being black - being routinely stopped to prove you own your car is a well-known example. It's one thing to put up with systematic unfairness without letting it dominate your life. It's something else for a Government-appointed body to tell you the problem doesn't exist.
    Yes, it's fascinating how many people have such strong views on a report they haven't read.
    The only acceptable report, in the eyes of some campaigners, would be one that brands modern Britain as an oppressive hellhole.

    And, the idea that this report "glorifies slavery" is completely off the wall.
    It doesn't glorify slavery. That's an exaggeration. It just tries to find the positives. It's crass and inappropriate in a report such as this - but I know why they've done it.

    Imagine you're giving a motivational pep talk to a black child. You will tell them not to assume things are rigged against them. Don't wallow in victimhood, it helps nobody. Ok, there might still be a degree of racism about, but things are better these days, so get out there, work hard, don't take no for an answer, you are as good as anyone and you can succeed. Don't go thinking you can't.

    That's great. It's the right message.

    But what people on the unthinking 'ra ra' right often do is conflate this with what you should say about the situation at society level. That racism should be downplayed - or "not obsessed about" - because otherwise people will use it an excuse for not trying and not sorting out certain other problems which have little to do with race.

    I see this an awful lot with many of the posters on here.
    The problem that I see clearly is that for some evidence doesn't matter. If you see everything through a prism of oppression then even the innocuous takes on a sinister undertone.

    I once got accused of being rude to someone I was in disagreement with as I signed off my email 'Regards'. The fact that I signed off every email I sent that way - it was part of my email signature - didn't even resolve the issue. People have often decided on their support agreement based on the person not the facts.
    Ah, but the *perception* was that an "incident of rudeness" had occurred. Therefore one had.

    Remember the story of the rapper on the London estate?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2021

    Here's what the EU is planning. It looks very sensible. (If the UK had any sense, which it doesn't, we'd join their scheme).

    https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/1377561374822440960

    Would they even let us join? 3rd country status and all that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited April 2021

    HYUFD said:

    Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
    It is not even a Holyrood poll, though of course it does not matter even if the SNP got 100% there will be no legal indyref2 allowed by this UK Tory government. 2014 was a once in a generation vote
    I think that's a bingo from me.
    Beijing is of course now removing all non pro China legislators from the Hong Kong legislature and replacing them with pro China patriots, the Scottish Nationalists should thank themselves lucky that the UK government is only refusing indyref2, not following the Chinese government and replacing all Nationalist MSPs with Unionists
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,341

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    58% of voters as a whole support vaccine passports, as do 64% of Tory voters, 55% of Labour voters and 60% of LD voters.

    So Starmer and Davey are on the wrong side not only of voters as a whole on this but even their own party's voters

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1377558150660943873?s=20

    Good for them. It may not help them, and people may (indeed, on those numbers, do) disagree, but it shows them trying to lead and convince.

    As Guy Verhofstadt once said:

    Most of the political leaders [in continental Europe] are simply following nationalist and populist rhetoric, and that is for me not a democracy. A democracy, in my opinion, is a political leader developing a vision and then trying to convince the public opinion to follow his vision, and not what is happening now


    (People do tend to forget the 'trying to convince the public to follow' bit, which is important when not, well dictating)
    Yep I look a lot more favourably upon both Starmer and Davey as a result of their stand on this.
    Once people realise that the question means: 'Do you want to have to have the state's permission before you can buy potatoes or change your library book' attitudes may change.

    I hope that Labour's stand - hooray - will be enough with Tory libertarians to put the government off - if they really are so minded, which I find hard to credit.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    AlistairM said:
    38% rejoin is still very high.....EU willing to throw your granny under the bus, while happy to cozy up to Russia and China...and still 38%.
    Don't worry, a few more red busses will solve that.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849
    edited April 2021

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    So the people who don’t like the report disagree with the people who do like the report. It’s “confrontational” to be told that someone disagrees with you I guess?

    But not confrontational to sound off to the press?
    The background of some of the people selected for the Commission pretty much predestined its daft conclusions. One member has views on foreign aid so extreme that Bill Gates reviewed her book as "promoting evil". Another is openly partisan in anti-Labour politics. A third talked about gay people as "tortured queens".

    This editorial summarises the views of many of us, not only those who routinely expound on these issues.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/31/the-guardian-view-on-boris-johnsons-race-review-you-cannot-be-serious

    It's simply a missed opportunity. It is clearly true that there are many causes of inequality, not only racism But it is laughable to dismiss it, since it alienates ordinary people who experience everyday hassle for being black - being routinely stopped to prove you own your car is a well-known example. It's one thing to put up with systematic unfairness without letting it dominate your life. It's something else for a Government-appointed body to tell you the problem doesn't exist.
    Yes, it's fascinating how many people have such strong views on a report they haven't read.
    The only acceptable report, in the eyes of some campaigners, would be one that brands modern Britain as an oppressive hellhole.

    And, the idea that this report "glorifies slavery" is completely off the wall.
    It doesn't glorify slavery. That's an exaggeration. It just tries to find the positives. It's crass and inappropriate in a report such as this - but I know why they've done it.

    Imagine you're giving a motivational pep talk to a black child. You will tell them not to assume things are rigged against them. Don't wallow in victimhood, it helps nobody. Ok, there might still be a degree of racism about, but things are better these days, so get out there, work hard, don't take no for an answer, you are as good as anyone and you can succeed. Don't go thinking you can't.

    That's great. It's the right message.

    But what people on the unthinking 'ra ra' right often do is conflate this with what you should say about the situation at society level. That racism should be downplayed - or "not obsessed about" - because otherwise people will use it an excuse for not trying and not sorting out certain other problems which have little to do with race.

    I see this an awful lot with many of the posters on here.
    The problem that I see clearly is that for some evidence doesn't matter. If you see everything through a prism of oppression then even the innocuous takes on a sinister undertone.

    I once got accused of being rude to someone I was in disagreement with as I signed off my email 'Regards'. The fact that I signed off every email I sent that way - it was part of my email signature - didn't even resolve the issue. People have often decided on their support agreement based on the person not the facts.
    True enough. But that's not the point I'm making. I'm saying that with racism there can be a conflict between what might be a positive and healthy message to give to an individual and an honest analysis at societal level.

    I would also point out that the progress we have undoubtedly made on this issue over recent decades has not been because we have not talked much about it. Quite the opposite, I'd suggest.

    So there are dangers if the consensus on racism becomes that it's pretty much a thing of the past and it's time to stop "banging on" about it. Seductive as that might be to many people.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080

    felix said:

    Please tell me she has nothing to do with Oxford or indeed any university anywhere.
    Cambridge also not holding its reputation well. Posting such inflammatory stuff would probably require the assistance of the aforementioned Toby Young's Free Speech Union. That poor woman who acted for Disney got fired for a clumsy holocaust comparison which was little more than a less articulate "First they came for the ........ ".

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1377578586689961986?s=20
    "Professor of Postcolonial Studies in the Faculty of English at the University of Cambridge"

    Various Twitter controversies. Attention seeker.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Here's what the EU is planning. It looks very sensible. (If the UK had any sense, which it doesn't, we'd join their scheme).

    https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/1377561374822440960

    Would they even let us join? 3rd country status and all that.
    Dunno. But it would make sense to make this an international effort, especially given the importance of UK tourists to several of their economies.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2021

    Here's what the EU is planning. It looks very sensible. (If the UK had any sense, which it doesn't, we'd join their scheme).

    https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/1377561374822440960

    Would they even let us join? 3rd country status and all that.
    Dunno. But it would make sense to make this an international effort, especially given the importance of UK tourists to several of their economies.
    You see the mistake you have made there is presuming the EC will act logically....at the moment, it seems the smallest thing relating to the UK and they start acting like Basil Fawlty.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
    It is not even a Holyrood poll, though of course it does not matter even if the SNP got 100% there will be no legal indyref2 allowed by this UK Tory government. 2014 was a once in a generation vote
    I think that's a bingo from me.
    Beijing is of course now removing all non pro China legislators from the Hong Kong legislature and replacing them with pro China patriots, the Scottish Nationalists should thank themselves lucky that the UK government is only refusing indyref2, not following the Chinese government and replacing all Nationalist MSPs with Unionists
    :D that's a banker...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    'The Scottish Libertarian website claims: "We all know that government is a cancer."'

    Vote for me to become part of the cancer would be a courageous electoral slogan.

    https://twitter.com/Daily_Record/status/1377577733090238465?s=20
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Here's what the EU is planning. It looks very sensible. (If the UK had any sense, which it doesn't, we'd join their scheme).

    https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/1377561374822440960

    Would they even let us join? 3rd country status and all that.
    Dunno. But it would make sense to make this an international effort, especially given the importance of UK tourists to several of their economies.
    You see the mistake you have made there is presuming the EC will act logically....at the moment, it seems the smallest thing relating to the UK and they start acting like Basil Fawlty.
    Guilty as charged, m'lud.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,341

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    So the people who don’t like the report disagree with the people who do like the report. It’s “confrontational” to be told that someone disagrees with you I guess?

    But not confrontational to sound off to the press?
    The background of some of the people selected for the Commission pretty much predestined its daft conclusions. One member has views on foreign aid so extreme that Bill Gates reviewed her book as "promoting evil". Another is openly partisan in anti-Labour politics. A third talked about gay people as "tortured queens".

    This editorial summarises the views of many of us, not only those who routinely expound on these issues.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/31/the-guardian-view-on-boris-johnsons-race-review-you-cannot-be-serious

    It's simply a missed opportunity. It is clearly true that there are many causes of inequality, not only racism But it is laughable to dismiss it, since it alienates ordinary people who experience everyday hassle for being black - being routinely stopped to prove you own your car is a well-known example. It's one thing to put up with systematic unfairness without letting it dominate your life. It's something else for a Government-appointed body to tell you the problem doesn't exist.
    Yes, it's fascinating how many people have such strong views on a report they haven't read.
    The only acceptable report, in the eyes of some campaigners, would be one that brands modern Britain as an oppressive hellhole.

    And, the idea that this report "glorifies slavery" is completely off the wall.
    It doesn't glorify slavery. That's an exaggeration. It just tries to find the positives. It's crass and inappropriate in a report such as this - but I know why they've done it.

    Imagine you're giving a motivational pep talk to a black child. You will tell them not to assume things are rigged against them. Don't wallow in victimhood, it helps nobody. Ok, there might still be a degree of racism about, but things are better these days, so get out there, work hard, don't take no for an answer, you are as good as anyone and you can succeed. Don't go thinking you can't.

    That's great. It's the right message.

    But what people on the unthinking 'ra ra' right often do is conflate this with what you should say about the situation at society level. That racism should be downplayed - or "not obsessed about" - because otherwise people will use it an excuse for not trying and not sorting out certain other problems which have little to do with race.

    I see this an awful lot with many of the posters on here.
    The problem that I see clearly is that for some evidence doesn't matter. If you see everything through a prism of oppression then even the innocuous takes on a sinister undertone.

    I once got accused of being rude to someone I was in disagreement with as I signed off my email 'Regards'. The fact that I signed off every email I sent that way - it was part of my email signature - didn't even resolve the issue. People have often decided on their support agreement based on the person not the facts.
    Ah, but the *perception* was that an "incident of rudeness" had occurred. Therefore one had.

    Remember the story of the rapper on the London estate?
    Once the idea takes off that an individual perception of a certain sort - say of racism - is the incontestable definition of a racist action (and to some extent it has) then there is no rational neutral space left for evaluating actions. This is tyranny and the opposite of enlightenment.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
    It is not even a Holyrood poll, though of course it does not matter even if the SNP got 100% there will be no legal indyref2 allowed by this UK Tory government. 2014 was a once in a generation vote
    I think that's a bingo from me.
    Beijing is of course now removing all non pro China legislators from the Hong Kong legislature and replacing them with pro China patriots, the Scottish Nationalists should thank themselves lucky that the UK government is only refusing indyref2, not following the Chinese government and replacing all Nationalist MSPs with Unionists
    Were it anyone else I'd say that the suggestion that not acting like one of the most repressive regimes on earth was the bar for reasonable conduct was a joke.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
    It is not even a Holyrood poll, though of course it does not matter even if the SNP got 100% there will be no legal indyref2 allowed by this UK Tory government. 2014 was a once in a generation vote
    I think that's a bingo from me.
    Beijing is of course now removing all non pro China legislators from the Hong Kong legislature and replacing them with pro China patriots, the Scottish Nationalists should thank themselves lucky that the UK government is only refusing indyref2, not following the Chinese government and replacing all Nationalist MSPs with Unionists
    The Scots should "thank themselves lucky" that the UK isn't Communist China. 🤔

    There's no luck about that. We are a democratic nation which is why elections matter.

    If the Scots vote for a second referendum that is their choice. Communist China is not the model I wish my nation to be compared against even if it is yours.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    felix said:

    Please tell me she has nothing to do with Oxford or indeed any university anywhere.
    Cambridge also not holding its reputation well. Posting such inflammatory stuff would probably require the assistance of the aforementioned Toby Young's Free Speech Union. That poor woman who acted for Disney got fired for a clumsy holocaust comparison which was little more than a less articulate "First they came for the ........ ".

    https://twitter.com/PriyamvadaGopal/status/1377563423756664832?s=20
    The rage... the bitter, bitter rage :lol:
    People are giving it to her with both barrels.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    edited April 2021
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
    It is not even a Holyrood poll, though of course it does not matter even if the SNP got 100% there will be no legal indyref2 allowed by this UK Tory government. 2014 was a once in a generation vote
    I think that's a bingo from me.
    Beijing is of course now removing all non pro China legislators from the Hong Kong legislature and replacing them with pro China patriots, the Scottish Nationalists should thank themselves lucky that the UK government is only refusing indyref2, not following the Chinese government and replacing all Nationalist MSPs with Unionists
    You are insane and as a member of the conservative party I condemn your remarks, especially as you hold a position in our party
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,341
    MattW said:

    felix said:

    Please tell me she has nothing to do with Oxford or indeed any university anywhere.
    Cambridge also not holding its reputation well. Posting such inflammatory stuff would probably require the assistance of the aforementioned Toby Young's Free Speech Union. That poor woman who acted for Disney got fired for a clumsy holocaust comparison which was little more than a less articulate "First they came for the ........ ".

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1377578586689961986?s=20
    "Professor of Postcolonial Studies in the Faculty of English at the University of Cambridge"

    Various Twitter controversies. Attention seeker.
    This is Godwin's law and I claim my £5 prize.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
    It is not even a Holyrood poll, though of course it does not matter even if the SNP got 100% there will be no legal indyref2 allowed by this UK Tory government. 2014 was a once in a generation vote
    I think that's a bingo from me.
    Beijing is of course now removing all non pro China legislators from the Hong Kong legislature and replacing them with pro China patriots, the Scottish Nationalists should thank themselves lucky that the UK government is only refusing indyref2, not following the Chinese government and replacing all Nationalist MSPs with Unionists
    You are insane and as a member of the conservative party I condemn your remarks, especially as you hold a position in our party
    Tough, we are not giving in to the Nationalists
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2021

    Here's what the EU is planning. It looks very sensible. (If the UK had any sense, which it doesn't, we'd join their scheme).

    https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/1377561374822440960

    Would they even let us join? 3rd country status and all that.
    Dunno. But it would make sense to make this an international effort, especially given the importance of UK tourists to several of their economies.
    You see the mistake you have made there is presuming the EC will act logically....at the moment, it seems the smallest thing relating to the UK and they start acting like Basil Fawlty.
    Guilty as charged, m'lud.
    A good example is these electronic visas the EU are bringing in. Logically, it would be sensible to consider just how much British tourism contributes to the economies of Southern Europe and come up with an exemption in the same way as US / Canada exempt each other from their own versions of travel visa schemes, in order to make it as frictionless as possible for Bob and Barbara from Bolton to go to Grand Canaria.

    You can say but the UK voted to leave the EU and they are within their rights to consider the UK no different from any other country and that's true, they don't owe us any favours. However, logically all those Spanish tourist businesses I am sure would benefit from continuing to make it as easy as possible to visit, not that I think put this scheme in place will turn off loads of people, but probably have a bit of effect on those thinking of a unplanned last minute weekend away.
  • Floater said:

    kamski said:

    algarkirk said:

    It all calls out for sober evaluation. No idea if the facts are correct, but if they are there are no obvious explanations with racist connotations, unless perhaps the good doctor wants to suggest that her medical sisters and brothers are giving preferential care to some and allowing others to die?
    I guess the suggestion is that minority doctors have fewer opportunities to avoid heavy exposure to the virus?
    So white doctors get first divs on PPE and can avod work on covid wards?

    Absolute bullshit

    She probably thinks this is represenative of NHS management.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQnEBSwdAXw
    Chef "have you not heard of the Emancipation Proclamation?"
    General "I dont listen to hip hop"
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Scott_xP said:
    Channel 4 is a neutral public service broadcaster.
    I’m going to have to confront you on that point
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
    It is not even a Holyrood poll, though of course it does not matter even if the SNP got 100% there will be no legal indyref2 allowed by this UK Tory government. 2014 was a once in a generation vote
    I think that's a bingo from me.
    Beijing is of course now removing all non pro China legislators from the Hong Kong legislature and replacing them with pro China patriots, the Scottish Nationalists should thank themselves lucky that the UK government is only refusing indyref2, not following the Chinese government and replacing all Nationalist MSPs with Unionists
    You are insane and as a member of the conservative party I condemn your remarks, especially as you hold a position in our party
    Tough, we are not giving in to the Nationalists
    Have you cleared your statement with your local party
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,612
    algarkirk said:

    MattW said:

    felix said:

    Please tell me she has nothing to do with Oxford or indeed any university anywhere.
    Cambridge also not holding its reputation well. Posting such inflammatory stuff would probably require the assistance of the aforementioned Toby Young's Free Speech Union. That poor woman who acted for Disney got fired for a clumsy holocaust comparison which was little more than a less articulate "First they came for the ........ ".

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1377578586689961986?s=20
    "Professor of Postcolonial Studies in the Faculty of English at the University of Cambridge"

    Various Twitter controversies. Attention seeker.
    This is Godwin's law and I claim my £5 prize.

    Nein Reichmarks for you!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited April 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
    It is not even a Holyrood poll, though of course it does not matter even if the SNP got 100% there will be no legal indyref2 allowed by this UK Tory government. 2014 was a once in a generation vote
    I think that's a bingo from me.
    Beijing is of course now removing all non pro China legislators from the Hong Kong legislature and replacing them with pro China patriots, the Scottish Nationalists should thank themselves lucky that the UK government is only refusing indyref2, not following the Chinese government and replacing all Nationalist MSPs with Unionists
    You are insane and as a member of the conservative party I condemn your remarks, especially as you hold a position in our party
    Tough, we are not giving in to the Nationalists
    Have you cleared your statement with your local party
    It is the official policy of the UK wide party never mind just the local party

    https://twitter.com/STVNews/status/1355851689736216576?s=20

    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1324616486397370368?s=20
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,612

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not one for HYUFD’s unique Scottish sub sample method of divination.
    It is not even a Holyrood poll, though of course it does not matter even if the SNP got 100% there will be no legal indyref2 allowed by this UK Tory government. 2014 was a once in a generation vote
    I think that's a bingo from me.
    Beijing is of course now removing all non pro China legislators from the Hong Kong legislature and replacing them with pro China patriots, the Scottish Nationalists should thank themselves lucky that the UK government is only refusing indyref2, not following the Chinese government and replacing all Nationalist MSPs with Unionists
    You are insane and as a member of the conservative party I condemn your remarks, especially as you hold a position in our party
    Are you suggesting that being stark raving bonkers is an impediment to a political career? Isn't that ableist?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Here's what the EU is planning. It looks very sensible. (If the UK had any sense, which it doesn't, we'd join their scheme).

    https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/1377561374822440960

    Would they even let us join? 3rd country status and all that.
    Dunno. But it would make sense to make this an international effort, especially given the importance of UK tourists to several of their economies.
    You see the mistake you have made there is presuming the EC will act logically....at the moment, it seems the smallest thing relating to the UK and they start acting like Basil Fawlty.
    Guilty as charged, m'lud.
    A good example is these electronic visas the EU are bringing in. Logically, it would be sensible to consider just how much British tourism contributes to the economies of Southern Europe and come up with an exemption in the same way as US / Canada exempt each other from their own versions of travel visa schemes, in order to make it as frictionless as possible for Bob and Barbara from Bolton to go to Grand Canaria.
    Agreed, although I think it's actually quite likely that there will an exemption by the time the scheme starts.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,722
    Brom said:

    her hysterical announcements on many things are a joy to behold, with her fans hanging on her every word. Shes a left wing toby young with a phd
    She was also livid with our 12 week dose strategy which she's now gone quiet on. One wonders how she looks after her patients given how much of the day she dedicates to internetting.
    Are you saying 95% of the doctors who died from Covid were from ethnic minorities.

    95%.

    Or not?
  • algarkirk said:

    MattW said:

    felix said:

    Please tell me she has nothing to do with Oxford or indeed any university anywhere.
    Cambridge also not holding its reputation well. Posting such inflammatory stuff would probably require the assistance of the aforementioned Toby Young's Free Speech Union. That poor woman who acted for Disney got fired for a clumsy holocaust comparison which was little more than a less articulate "First they came for the ........ ".

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1377578586689961986?s=20
    "Professor of Postcolonial Studies in the Faculty of English at the University of Cambridge"

    Various Twitter controversies. Attention seeker.
    This is Godwin's law and I claim my £5 prize.

    Goodwin's Law in one move...
This discussion has been closed.