Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

After the longest wait for a by-election since GE1945 it looks like there’ll be two on the same say

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited March 26 in General
imageAfter the longest wait for a by-election since GE1945 it looks like there’ll be two on the same say – politicalbetting.com

The Wikipedia panel above shows the outcome of the general election in the Scottish constituency of Airdrie and Shottswhere where there will be a Westminster by-election in the first week of May. It looks as though the LAB defence of Hartlepool will take place on the same day.

Read the full story here

«13

Comments

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 13,058
    first
  • stodgestodge Posts: 8,279
    Looks like it's been quite exciting at the rugby.

    Congratulations to Wales.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 39,776
    What are these "by-elections" of which you speak?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 17,055
    Guido thinks Gray resigned too late for it to be 6 May:

    https://order-order.com/2021/03/26/blackfords-spectacular-by-election-own-goal/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,037
    edited March 26
    stodge said:

    Looks like it's been quite exciting at the rugby.

    Congratulations to Wales.

    Incredible win for Scotland, 4 minutes into injury time

    Much deserved
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 83,671
    The by election results are likely to be overshadowed by the local elections, Scottish and Welsh and London elections on the same day anyway
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,037
    3,400 deaths in Brazil. A new record.

    Yikes
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 32,962
    As was also found in Israel, some combination of the risk at the vaccination centres and changes in behaviour too soon after vaccination is leading to post-vaccine infections:

    One in 25 people hospitalised with Covid-19 since December have had at least one dose of vaccine, with the majority infected shortly before or soon after vaccination – before immunity would have had time to develop
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166
    stodge said:

    kle4 said:


    I'm surprised you've fallen for their flag distraction, to be honest. It cannot have taken much time from his schedule, and most people don't care about flags, so it seems pretty clear that it was a minor thing done principally to annoy the small number of people who do get worked up about it. Based on your response, it worked.

    As for the Left or Right loving telling people what to do on the basis they know best, without being wishy washy about it, I cannot say I'd think centrists are immune to that. It's pretty much the point of a political party that it tells people what to do because the party has come up with an idea they think is best.

    Oh sure, many individuals will make comments about 'the people' knowing best and not interferring as much as possible and all that, but end of the day all politicians propose major things to either force or encourage people to do things as they 'know best'/

    I'm not sure I've "fallen" for anything - the flags is of course cheap political points scoring but the fact the Conservatives wheel this out time and again and the stock response seems to be to ignore it rather than actively challenge it surrenders that part of the field. The insidious undercurrent becomes you can only be patriotic and Conservative which as we both know is absurd. There are plenty of patriots and internationalists beyond the centre right and yielding patriotism to one side of the debate doesn't sit well.

    As for the Left and Right being two cheeks of the same backside, I think deep down we all know that and as a good liberal authoritarian, I'm sure I'd enjoy forcing people to be tolerant. That being said, is that what Government should be about? Am I happy with a moral aspect to Government, am I happy with Government policy deliberately aligned to a series of social objectives (home ownership being one example)? Should Government be consciously or unconsciously in the business of social engineering or is it an unavoidable consequence of policy?

    Worth a debate another day.
    It is cheap political point scoring that they wheel out time and again, as you say, but I don't believe you are right when you say the stock response is to ignore it rather than actively challenge it and that that 'surrenders the field'. You feel obliged to challenge it, which falls into their trap and actually prevents the challenge, counter intuitively.

    Why do I think that is the trap? Because the whole point seems to be that by moaning about the Conservatives doing it it reinforces the undercurrent that only Tories are patriotic or wave the flag, which you are right that is absurd, rather than challenges that undercurrent as you want. Why help the Tories by pretending that them waving the flag a bunch is insidious, rather than 'challenging' it by not getting worked up, and being patriotic in our own way, if we want, and not react as though the Tories waving flags about is something sinister?

    Sure, the objection, the challenge, is the Tories are implying they are the only patriotic ones, but I feel like that is lost on a lot of people, who just go 'People are objecting to Tories waving the flag? I'm not a Tory, but what's the problem with that?' and then people have to explain that is not what they are doing, oh but ignore those extremists who are doing precisely that, and so on.

    It costs the Tories nothing to do it, and won't always work, but some opposition people make it work. I don't think Keir will run into a problem, and not because he has put a flag up occasionally, but because people won't buy it, like they didn't buy it when Goldsmith tried to smear Khan 5 years ago.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,328
    edited March 26
    IanB2 said:

    As was also found in Israel, some combination of the risk at the vaccination centres and changes in behaviour too soon after vaccination is leading to post-vaccine infections:

    One in 25 people hospitalised with Covid-19 since December have had at least one dose of vaccine, with the majority infected shortly before or soon after vaccination – before immunity would have had time to develop

    I don't think the UK government message has been strong enough on this. Yes JVT has mentioned it at the press conferences, but it really needs ramming home like 2m space type message.

    That thing they jabbed in your arm, it ain't doing anything for you for at least 3 weeks.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,307

    What are these "by-elections" of which you speak?

    These by-elections have many intrbational meanings

    USA buy-elections a function of who spews most dollars to attain political dominance.

    Many countries bye-elections are where a dictator or military junta selflessly take it upon themselves to govern the grateful populace permanently. Robert Mugabe and Xi jinping are examples

    UK by-elections are the odd we we appoint our rulers using a system of FPTP by election

    Hope that clears it up for you.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 8,279
    It seems, quite rightly, plans are already being put in place for a series of booster vaccinations in the autumn.

    We don't know how long immunity from the second dose of either Pfizer or Aztrazeneca will last. We know there are high levels of immunity 12 weeks after the first dose and within 7 days of the second dose they go higher still but for how long are or can such high levels be maintained?

    The first person in the UK was vaccinated on December 8th and we know only a small percentage have received both vaccinations but is the planned date of September for booster vaccinations based on anything other than guesswork immunity will fade after 6 months or is there some science behind it?

    Presumably, no one really knows when vaccinated people lose their immunity - hopefully they won't completely and hopefully we'll be spared any new surprise variants. The other expectation I have is or are better vaccines with more efficient and quicker immune responses which also last longer so we can move to an annual vaccination - possibly, in time, combined with the normal influenza vaccination to create one vaccination especially for older and more vulnerable people.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 40,100

    IanB2 said:

    As was also found in Israel, some combination of the risk at the vaccination centres and changes in behaviour too soon after vaccination is leading to post-vaccine infections:

    One in 25 people hospitalised with Covid-19 since December have had at least one dose of vaccine, with the majority infected shortly before or soon after vaccination – before immunity would have had time to develop

    I don't think the UK government message has been strong enough on this. Yes JVT has mentioned it at the press conferences, but it really needs ramming home like 2m space type message.

    That thing they jabbed in your arm, it ain't doing anything for you for at least 3 weeks.
    The moment has passed for the vulnerables surely? Most will have had the first dose at least two weeks ago now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166
    HYUFD said:

    The by election results are likely to be overshadowed by the local elections, Scottish and Welsh and London elections on the same day anyway

    That depends on the results - when playing the expectations game, the parties will all have something they can point to on all but the very worst of nights.

    Khan will get attention as it is London, even though it is an obvious win.

    Wales won't get massive attention unless the Tories really do run Labour close, or even come top.

    Locals will depend on overall number of losses/gains, but unless it's a clear calamity for someone will be easy for the other side to distract.

    Some other mayoralties will get some local notice, but most won't care.

    Scotland will get a lot of attention come what May, as either the SNP get their majority, Indy supporters get their majority, which are both big news for what they will then claim a mandate for, or Unionists somehow graba majority, which would be big news indeed.

    So yes, the by-elections will probably be a bit overshadowed, but a Tory win in Hartlepool on an otherwise mixed night would be a useful counter example, and Labour not breaking through by holding Hartlepool will get more attention than such a hold usually would, as it would be used to say Keir's tactics are working.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,328
    edited March 26
    And to think they were having cricket matches with 60k spectators when they people were being infected.

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1375562851985858560?s=19
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166

    IanB2 said:

    As was also found in Israel, some combination of the risk at the vaccination centres and changes in behaviour too soon after vaccination is leading to post-vaccine infections:

    One in 25 people hospitalised with Covid-19 since December have had at least one dose of vaccine, with the majority infected shortly before or soon after vaccination – before immunity would have had time to develop

    I don't think the UK government message has been strong enough on this. Yes JVT has mentioned it at the press conferences, but it really needs ramming home like 2m space type message.

    That thing they jabbed in your arm, it ain't doing anything for you for at least 3 weeks.
    Don't they tell you when you get jabbed? Not sure anything would be more effective than that, so if it isn't working, not sure what would.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 14,625
    If they really want to kill it, perhaps they should get Marcus Rashford to Tweet against it - it's been 100% successful at forcing the Government into embarrassing U-turns so far.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 15,995
    edited March 26

    IanB2 said:

    As was also found in Israel, some combination of the risk at the vaccination centres and changes in behaviour too soon after vaccination is leading to post-vaccine infections:

    One in 25 people hospitalised with Covid-19 since December have had at least one dose of vaccine, with the majority infected shortly before or soon after vaccination – before immunity would have had time to develop

    I don't think the UK government message has been strong enough on this. Yes JVT has mentioned it at the press conferences, but it really needs ramming home like 2m space type message.

    That thing they jabbed in your arm, it ain't doing anything for you for at least 3 weeks.
    The moment has passed for the vulnerables surely? Most will have had the first dose at least two weeks ago now.
    Under 50s are vulnerable too. Maybe not as vulnerable but vulnerable nonetheless.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 39,776
    philiph said:

    What are these "by-elections" of which you speak?

    These by-elections have many intrbational meanings

    USA buy-elections a function of who spews most dollars to attain political dominance.

    Many countries bye-elections are where a dictator or military junta selflessly take it upon themselves to govern the grateful populace permanently. Robert Mugabe and Xi jinping are examples

    UK by-elections are the odd we we appoint our rulers using a system of FPTP by election

    Hope that clears it up for you.
    It had been so long since we had one, I'd forgotten.....
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 13,058
    stodge said:

    It seems, quite rightly, plans are already being put in place for a series of booster vaccinations in the autumn.

    We don't know how long immunity from the second dose of either Pfizer or Aztrazeneca will last. We know there are high levels of immunity 12 weeks after the first dose and within 7 days of the second dose they go higher still but for how long are or can such high levels be maintained?

    The first person in the UK was vaccinated on December 8th and we know only a small percentage have received both vaccinations but is the planned date of September for booster vaccinations based on anything other than guesswork immunity will fade after 6 months or is there some science behind it?

    Presumably, no one really knows when vaccinated people lose their immunity - hopefully they won't completely and hopefully we'll be spared any new surprise variants. The other expectation I have is or are better vaccines with more efficient and quicker immune responses which also last longer so we can move to an annual vaccination - possibly, in time, combined with the normal influenza vaccination to create one vaccination especially for older and more vulnerable people.

    My son is down for a booster in September
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166
    edited March 26

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166

    What are these "by-elections" of which you speak?

    It's when a councillor for Upper North West LanarkBanffnessShire gets chosen at the 5th count around 4am on a Friday morning.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 17,055

    And to think they were having cricket matches with 60k spectators when they people were being infected.

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1375562851985858560?s=19

    All those theories about Indians having more immunity...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,037
    edited March 26
    tlg86 said:

    And to think they were having cricket matches with 60k spectators when they people were being infected.

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1375562851985858560?s=19

    All those theories about Indians having more immunity...
    There was also a theory that India was ‘enjoying’ a weaker, less lethal variant

    Perhaps Kentish Covid has now made its introductions
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 36,533
    tlg86 said:

    And to think they were having cricket matches with 60k spectators when they people were being infected.

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1375562851985858560?s=19

    All those theories about Indians having more immunity...
    My friend told me, confidently, that it was all about vitamin D.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166

    And to think they were having cricket matches with 60k spectators when they people were being infected.

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1375562851985858560?s=19

    USA was getting 250k a day at one point, so long way to go, but the global decline in cases in Jan/Feb certainly behind us now.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,037
    edited March 26
    Brazil is scary. Not just the huge and rising death toll, apparently unstoppable, but things like this


    https://twitter.com/avivi/status/1375575135932006403?s=21


    https://twitter.com/dgbassani/status/1375571027380596736?s=21
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 36,533
    stodge said:

    It seems, quite rightly, plans are already being put in place for a series of booster vaccinations in the autumn.

    We don't know how long immunity from the second dose of either Pfizer or Aztrazeneca will last. We know there are high levels of immunity 12 weeks after the first dose and within 7 days of the second dose they go higher still but for how long are or can such high levels be maintained?

    The first person in the UK was vaccinated on December 8th and we know only a small percentage have received both vaccinations but is the planned date of September for booster vaccinations based on anything other than guesswork immunity will fade after 6 months or is there some science behind it?

    Presumably, no one really knows when vaccinated people lose their immunity - hopefully they won't completely and hopefully we'll be spared any new surprise variants. The other expectation I have is or are better vaccines with more efficient and quicker immune responses which also last longer so we can move to an annual vaccination - possibly, in time, combined with the normal influenza vaccination to create one vaccination especially for older and more vulnerable people.

    They keep tracking the people from the trials, and there are periodic updates released. So far, there is no sign of any increased infection from people vaccinated last summer.

    Bear in mind, that there won't be a step function, and that if immunity fades, it will be gradual.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 14,625
    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    And to think they were having cricket matches with 60k spectators when they people were being infected.

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1375562851985858560?s=19

    All those theories about Indians having more immunity...
    My friend told me, confidently, that it was all about vitamin D.

    Vitamin D would not have had any effect on case numbers, it would affect severity.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 36,533
    IanB2 said:

    As was also found in Israel, some combination of the risk at the vaccination centres and changes in behaviour too soon after vaccination is leading to post-vaccine infections:

    One in 25 people hospitalised with Covid-19 since December have had at least one dose of vaccine, with the majority infected shortly before or soon after vaccination – before immunity would have had time to develop

    There was a significant uptick in infection rates in the immediate aftermath of taking the vaccine... Almost certainly due to changed behavior.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,328
    The Nigerian numbers are the most suspicious to me. Either they are doing the most unsung job of keeping covid at Japanese type levels or something doesn't add up.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 40,100
    See if that loon with cow horns on his head can get past this guy...


    https://twitter.com/nytpolitics/status/1375576808033300488
  • isamisam Posts: 35,492
    Does anyone want to lay Labour at EVS in Hartlepool?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 36,533
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    That's nothing

    This town - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Büsingen_am_Hochrhein - is German, and is surrounded on all sides by Switzerland.

    They voted to combine with Switzerland, and the Swiss turned them down.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,752
    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    And to think they were having cricket matches with 60k spectators when they people were being infected.

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1375562851985858560?s=19

    All those theories about Indians having more immunity...
    There was also a theory that India was ‘enjoying’ a weaker, less lethal variant

    Perhaps Kentish Covid has now made its introductions
    They have their own mutation.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-56507988
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 36,533

    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    And to think they were having cricket matches with 60k spectators when they people were being infected.

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1375562851985858560?s=19

    All those theories about Indians having more immunity...
    My friend told me, confidently, that it was all about vitamin D.

    Vitamin D would not have had any effect on case numbers, it would affect severity.
    That's not true.

    Severity is highly correlated with the level of viral shedding.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't know if that is the best approach, but 20 years ago West Virginia had an obesity rate of 23%, the worst in the country. Just 20 years later that would make it the least obese state. We are following hot on the heels of the yanks.
    So what is the best approach, doc?
    For me, banning the sale of biscuits. Just cannot say no to the buggers.

    More seriously people have talked for years about more emphasis on sport in schools and the like, so either we've not done it, or it hasn't worked, and either way, why not?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,037
    A harrowing but necessary report from Brazil. Eerily similar to the worst scenes from Wuhan, Madrid, bergamo. But on a bigger scale


    https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2021/03/26/lead-matt-rivers-dnt-live-jake-tapper.cnn

    Burying corpses at night
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 23,469
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    Apparently the Maltese were rather profligate. In 1950 they had no debt and a grant of £20 million from the Colonial Office. But the politicians overspent to try and stay popular with the voters so by 1955 they needed more money.

    There were discussions about Dominion status but apparently neither the British nor the Maltese liked that solution so Dom Mintoff suggested the solution whereby Malta would become part of the UK with 3 seats in Parliament. Basically they would have had the same status as Northern Ireland. This was approved by 77% of the electorate but on a 59% turnout. But the British decided that Malta would be too expensive - they needed an immediate £5 million bail out - and so decided not to proceed with the plans. This was in part driven by the different outlook of the UK and its decline as a naval power which made Malta less important. Instead Malta became independent in 1964.

    I still marvel at the fact that the British chose to reject the referendum result which inevitably was seen by many in Malta as a snub. Not least because the British Government had been joint conveners of the referendum.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    That's nothing

    This town - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Büsingen_am_Hochrhein - is German, and is surrounded on all sides by Switzerland.

    They voted to combine with Switzerland, and the Swiss turned them down.
    I remember reading once about the border of India and Bangladesh, with what was apparently an exclave within an exclave within an exclave, or some such. Sounded like a nightmare.

    Fascinating things, and do rather make a mockery of when people rather simplistic suggest X should be part of Y because it is on the same island/penninsula, as though borders have to make sense.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,752
    edited March 26
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't know if that is the best approach, but 20 years ago West Virginia had an obesity rate of 23%, the worst in the country. Just 20 years later that would make it the least obese state. We are following hot on the heels of the yanks.
    So what is the best approach, doc?
    For me, banning the sale of biscuits. Just cannot say no to the buggers.

    More seriously people have talked for years about more emphasis on sport in schools and the like, so either we've not done it, or it hasn't worked, and either way, why not?
    To be honest, not much seems to work. People like junk food and are lazy buggers if given the chance. Against that human nature were doomed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    Apparently the Maltese were rather profligate. In 1950 they had no debt and a grant of £20 million from the Colonial Office. But the politicians overspent to try and stay popular with the voters so by 1955 they needed more money.

    There were discussions about Dominion status but apparently neither the British nor the Maltese liked that solution so Dom Mintoff suggested the solution whereby Malta would become part of the UK with 3 seats in Parliament. Basically they would have had the same status as Northern Ireland. This was approved by 77% of the electorate but on a 59% turnout. But the British decided that Malta would be too expensive - they needed an immediate £5 million bail out - and so decided not to proceed with the plans. This was in part driven by the different outlook of the UK and its decline as a naval power which made Malta less important. Instead Malta became independent in 1964.

    I still marvel at the fact that the British chose to reject the referendum result which inevitably was seen by many in Malta as a snub. Not least because the British Government had been joint conveners of the referendum.
    Such a shame. Another reason to curse my parents' generation! (granted they were merely childten at the time)
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 2,790
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Looks like it's been quite exciting at the rugby.

    Congratulations to Wales.

    Incredible win for Scotland, 4 minutes into injury time

    Much deserved
    Difficult. A triple whammy. I didn't want the frogs nor the Jocks to win, and I didn't want Wales to win the title... but they were the best team overall. C'est la vie...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't know if that is the best approach, but 20 years ago West Virginia had an obesity rate of 23%, the worst in the country. Just 20 years later that would make it the least obese state. We are following hot on the heels of the yanks.
    So what is the best approach, doc?
    For me, banning the sale of biscuits. Just cannot say no to the buggers.

    More seriously people have talked for years about more emphasis on sport in schools and the like, so either we've not done it, or it hasn't worked, and either way, why not?
    To be honest, not much seems to work. People like junk food and are lazy buggers if given the chance. Against that human nature were doomed.
    Well, when we're all subsisting on soylent green we'll find it easier to stay slim I imagine.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,328
    edited March 26
    With the likes of Deliveroo you don't even need to leave your home to buy your calorie dense take away. You now can click a couple of buttons and 2000 calorie megabucket will appear 30 mins later.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,037
    If you’re intubated in Brazil, you have a 88% chance of dying

    https://twitter.com/poder360/status/1375427313064632328?s=21
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 36,501
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    That's nothing

    This town - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Büsingen_am_Hochrhein - is German, and is surrounded on all sides by Switzerland.

    They voted to combine with Switzerland, and the Swiss turned them down.
    I remember reading once about the border of India and Bangladesh, with what was apparently an exclave within an exclave within an exclave, or some such. Sounded like a nightmare.

    Fascinating things, and do rather make a mockery of when people rather simplistic suggest X should be part of Y because it is on the same island/penninsula, as though borders have to make sense.
    India and Bangladesh sorted out their exclaves a few years ago.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India–Bangladesh_enclaves
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,568
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't know if that is the best approach, but 20 years ago West Virginia had an obesity rate of 23%, the worst in the country. Just 20 years later that would make it the least obese state. We are following hot on the heels of the yanks.
    So what is the best approach, doc?
    For me, banning the sale of biscuits. Just cannot say no to the buggers.

    More seriously people have talked for years about more emphasis on sport in schools and the like, so either we've not done it, or it hasn't worked, and either way, why not?
    To be honest, not much seems to work. People like junk food and are lazy buggers if given the chance. Against that human nature were doomed.
    It seems to me that we don’t really understand food properly.

    I remember in school learning how to bake Cornish pasties —- but not how to properly chop vegetables, why a sofrito is used in almost every recipe, and the best ways to treat carrot.

    That was 30 years ago, in another country, but doubt its any better now (and is probably worse).
  • isamisam Posts: 35,492
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't know if that is the best approach, but 20 years ago West Virginia had an obesity rate of 23%, the worst in the country. Just 20 years later that would make it the least obese state. We are following hot on the heels of the yanks.
    So what is the best approach, doc?
    For me, banning the sale of biscuits. Just cannot say no to the buggers.

    More seriously people have talked for years about more emphasis on sport in schools and the like, so either we've not done it, or it hasn't worked, and either way, why not?
    To be honest, not much seems to work. People like junk food and are lazy buggers if given the chance. Against that human nature were doomed.
    My idea is to have the info showing levels of fat/sugar/salt made to be 25% of the labelling. I never eat anything without looking at those numbers, but my missus and parents don’t seem to look at them at all
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 6,568
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    Apparently the Maltese were rather profligate. In 1950 they had no debt and a grant of £20 million from the Colonial Office. But the politicians overspent to try and stay popular with the voters so by 1955 they needed more money.

    There were discussions about Dominion status but apparently neither the British nor the Maltese liked that solution so Dom Mintoff suggested the solution whereby Malta would become part of the UK with 3 seats in Parliament. Basically they would have had the same status as Northern Ireland. This was approved by 77% of the electorate but on a 59% turnout. But the British decided that Malta would be too expensive - they needed an immediate £5 million bail out - and so decided not to proceed with the plans. This was in part driven by the different outlook of the UK and its decline as a naval power which made Malta less important. Instead Malta became independent in 1964.

    I still marvel at the fact that the British chose to reject the referendum result which inevitably was seen by many in Malta as a snub. Not least because the British Government had been joint conveners of the referendum.
    Such a shame. Another reason to curse my parents' generation! (granted they were merely childten at the time)
    My father was invalided out of the navy as a young man, after contracting an infection in Malta in the mid 1950s.

    70 years later he is still collecting a modest naval pension.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166
    Best border trivia is surely that bit between Egypt and Sudan which is supposedly last genuinely unclaimed land. Something to do with each side claiming ownership of a different bit of land from competing colonial agreements, and to claim the bit they want means they don't get this other bit, which is just nothing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/03/welcome-to-the-land-that-no-country-wants-bir-tawil
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,037

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    Apparently the Maltese were rather profligate. In 1950 they had no debt and a grant of £20 million from the Colonial Office. But the politicians overspent to try and stay popular with the voters so by 1955 they needed more money.

    There were discussions about Dominion status but apparently neither the British nor the Maltese liked that solution so Dom Mintoff suggested the solution whereby Malta would become part of the UK with 3 seats in Parliament. Basically they would have had the same status as Northern Ireland. This was approved by 77% of the electorate but on a 59% turnout. But the British decided that Malta would be too expensive - they needed an immediate £5 million bail out - and so decided not to proceed with the plans. This was in part driven by the different outlook of the UK and its decline as a naval power which made Malta less important. Instead Malta became independent in 1964.

    I still marvel at the fact that the British chose to reject the referendum result which inevitably was seen by many in Malta as a snub. Not least because the British Government had been joint conveners of the referendum.
    The Seychelles wanted to be British, as well, and again we turned them down.

    THE SEYCHELLES

    One of the most beautiful island chains on earth
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166

    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    That's nothing

    This town - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Büsingen_am_Hochrhein - is German, and is surrounded on all sides by Switzerland.

    They voted to combine with Switzerland, and the Swiss turned them down.
    I remember reading once about the border of India and Bangladesh, with what was apparently an exclave within an exclave within an exclave, or some such. Sounded like a nightmare.

    Fascinating things, and do rather make a mockery of when people rather simplistic suggest X should be part of Y because it is on the same island/penninsula, as though borders have to make sense.
    India and Bangladesh sorted out their exclaves a few years ago.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India–Bangladesh_enclaves
    Well done them for being grown ups and sorting it out.

    This is the one I was thinking of - the world's only third order enclave, a piece of India within a piece of Bangladesh within a piece of India within Bangladesh.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahala_Khagrabari
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 23,469
    kle4 said:

    Best border trivia is surely that bit between Egypt and Sudan which is supposedly last genuinely unclaimed land. Something to do with each side claiming ownership of a different bit of land from competing colonial agreements, and to claim the bit they want means they don't get this other bit, which is just nothing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/03/welcome-to-the-land-that-no-country-wants-bir-tawil

    There was a good story back in 2018 about Belgium and the Netherlands doing a land swap on the River Meuse

    https://www.dw.com/en/belgium-and-netherlands-swap-land-in-the-new-year/a-41988494
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 14,625
    edited March 26
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    And to think they were having cricket matches with 60k spectators when they people were being infected.

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1375562851985858560?s=19

    All those theories about Indians having more immunity...
    My friend told me, confidently, that it was all about vitamin D.

    Vitamin D would not have had any effect on case numbers, it would affect severity.
    That's not true.

    Severity is highly correlated with the level of viral shedding.
    But low severity could result in far more asymptomatic cases and therefore more social activity when infectious, so it cannot be assumed automatically that it would depress case levels.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 15,914
    There are more twists and turns yet in this pandemic. I wonder if the government has contingency if the vaccines prove ineffective to a new strain.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166

    kle4 said:

    Best border trivia is surely that bit between Egypt and Sudan which is supposedly last genuinely unclaimed land. Something to do with each side claiming ownership of a different bit of land from competing colonial agreements, and to claim the bit they want means they don't get this other bit, which is just nothing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/03/welcome-to-the-land-that-no-country-wants-bir-tawil

    There was a good story back in 2018 about Belgium and the Netherlands doing a land swap on the River Meuse

    https://www.dw.com/en/belgium-and-netherlands-swap-land-in-the-new-year/a-41988494
    The uninhabited peninsulas garnered a dark reputation over time. Residents complained that the small areas were used for illegal parties, drug deals, and prostitution, according to Dutch broadcaster NOS.

    Around four years ago, things came to a head after a couple walking on one of the peninsulas stumbled across a headless body.

    They informed the Dutch authorities, but police in the Netherlands were unable to investigate as the body was found on Belgian territory.

    On the other side, Belgian authorities had a difficult time getting to the crime scene. Belgian police are not allowed to cross into the Netherlands without receiving special permission, so they had to travel by boat.


    Well, that's the next The Bridge style drama sorted.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,752
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    Apparently the Maltese were rather profligate. In 1950 they had no debt and a grant of £20 million from the Colonial Office. But the politicians overspent to try and stay popular with the voters so by 1955 they needed more money.

    There were discussions about Dominion status but apparently neither the British nor the Maltese liked that solution so Dom Mintoff suggested the solution whereby Malta would become part of the UK with 3 seats in Parliament. Basically they would have had the same status as Northern Ireland. This was approved by 77% of the electorate but on a 59% turnout. But the British decided that Malta would be too expensive - they needed an immediate £5 million bail out - and so decided not to proceed with the plans. This was in part driven by the different outlook of the UK and its decline as a naval power which made Malta less important. Instead Malta became independent in 1964.

    I still marvel at the fact that the British chose to reject the referendum result which inevitably was seen by many in Malta as a snub. Not least because the British Government had been joint conveners of the referendum.
    The Seychelles wanted to be British, as well, and again we turned them down.

    THE SEYCHELLES

    One of the most beautiful island chains on earth
    The French got this right, giving colonies the choice between full status as parts of France or independence, so the sun still never sets on France.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 36,501
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    That's nothing

    This town - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Büsingen_am_Hochrhein - is German, and is surrounded on all sides by Switzerland.

    They voted to combine with Switzerland, and the Swiss turned them down.
    I remember reading once about the border of India and Bangladesh, with what was apparently an exclave within an exclave within an exclave, or some such. Sounded like a nightmare.

    Fascinating things, and do rather make a mockery of when people rather simplistic suggest X should be part of Y because it is on the same island/penninsula, as though borders have to make sense.
    India and Bangladesh sorted out their exclaves a few years ago.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India–Bangladesh_enclaves
    Well done them for being grown ups and sorting it out.

    This is the one I was thinking of - the world's only third order enclave, a piece of India within a piece of Bangladesh within a piece of India within Bangladesh.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahala_Khagrabari
    I know, crazy!

    Dahagram - similar name! - is now the only remaining (Bangladeshi) enclave.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 40,996
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    Apparently the Maltese were rather profligate. In 1950 they had no debt and a grant of £20 million from the Colonial Office. But the politicians overspent to try and stay popular with the voters so by 1955 they needed more money.

    There were discussions about Dominion status but apparently neither the British nor the Maltese liked that solution so Dom Mintoff suggested the solution whereby Malta would become part of the UK with 3 seats in Parliament. Basically they would have had the same status as Northern Ireland. This was approved by 77% of the electorate but on a 59% turnout. But the British decided that Malta would be too expensive - they needed an immediate £5 million bail out - and so decided not to proceed with the plans. This was in part driven by the different outlook of the UK and its decline as a naval power which made Malta less important. Instead Malta became independent in 1964.

    I still marvel at the fact that the British chose to reject the referendum result which inevitably was seen by many in Malta as a snub. Not least because the British Government had been joint conveners of the referendum.
    The Seychelles wanted to be British, as well, and again we turned them down.

    THE SEYCHELLES

    One of the most beautiful island chains on earth
    Please. Stop.

    I can only double-face palm so many times.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,037
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    Apparently the Maltese were rather profligate. In 1950 they had no debt and a grant of £20 million from the Colonial Office. But the politicians overspent to try and stay popular with the voters so by 1955 they needed more money.

    There were discussions about Dominion status but apparently neither the British nor the Maltese liked that solution so Dom Mintoff suggested the solution whereby Malta would become part of the UK with 3 seats in Parliament. Basically they would have had the same status as Northern Ireland. This was approved by 77% of the electorate but on a 59% turnout. But the British decided that Malta would be too expensive - they needed an immediate £5 million bail out - and so decided not to proceed with the plans. This was in part driven by the different outlook of the UK and its decline as a naval power which made Malta less important. Instead Malta became independent in 1964.

    I still marvel at the fact that the British chose to reject the referendum result which inevitably was seen by many in Malta as a snub. Not least because the British Government had been joint conveners of the referendum.
    The Seychelles wanted to be British, as well, and again we turned them down.

    THE SEYCHELLES

    One of the most beautiful island chains on earth
    The French got this right, giving colonies the choice between full status as parts of France or independence, so the sun still never sets on France.
    There are murmurings towards independence in some of the outremer. I can see New Caledonia going, maybe chunks of Polynesia. And Martinique is a very unhappy place, kept quiet with subsidy

    But yes they did a much better job of hanging on to nice bits of the world, which is galling when we conquered so much more. On the other they can’t get over the fact everywhere speaks English, so history has a way of evening out...
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 3,353
    edited March 26
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    My guess is that HM's govt of the day (Tory) did NOT want to pay for raising Maltese living standards to UK levels (part of the proposal).

    Also suspect fact that Maltese are "Levintine" and NOT Anglo-Saxon (or Celt) MIGHT have had something to do with it. Despite their more-than-loyal record during WW2.

    Does anyone here actually knows what the real deal was?

    Addendum - Just saw the comment by RT downthred.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 11,105
    Check out Liberland.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberland

    Basically territory claimed by neither Croatia or Serbia. Due to the Danube having shifted course.
  • isamisam Posts: 35,492
    Jonathan said:

    There are more twists and turns yet in this pandemic. I wonder if the government has contingency if the vaccines prove ineffective to a new strain.

    That reads to me like you’re banking on people saying you’re hoping it goes wrong, so you can argue you’re not!
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 2,280
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    Apparently the Maltese were rather profligate. In 1950 they had no debt and a grant of £20 million from the Colonial Office. But the politicians overspent to try and stay popular with the voters so by 1955 they needed more money.

    There were discussions about Dominion status but apparently neither the British nor the Maltese liked that solution so Dom Mintoff suggested the solution whereby Malta would become part of the UK with 3 seats in Parliament. Basically they would have had the same status as Northern Ireland. This was approved by 77% of the electorate but on a 59% turnout. But the British decided that Malta would be too expensive - they needed an immediate £5 million bail out - and so decided not to proceed with the plans. This was in part driven by the different outlook of the UK and its decline as a naval power which made Malta less important. Instead Malta became independent in 1964.

    I still marvel at the fact that the British chose to reject the referendum result which inevitably was seen by many in Malta as a snub. Not least because the British Government had been joint conveners of the referendum.
    The Seychelles wanted to be British, as well, and again we turned them down.

    THE SEYCHELLES

    One of the most beautiful island chains on earth
    The people of Diego Garcia just wanted to stay where they were, but we evicted them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,037

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    Apparently the Maltese were rather profligate. In 1950 they had no debt and a grant of £20 million from the Colonial Office. But the politicians overspent to try and stay popular with the voters so by 1955 they needed more money.

    There were discussions about Dominion status but apparently neither the British nor the Maltese liked that solution so Dom Mintoff suggested the solution whereby Malta would become part of the UK with 3 seats in Parliament. Basically they would have had the same status as Northern Ireland. This was approved by 77% of the electorate but on a 59% turnout. But the British decided that Malta would be too expensive - they needed an immediate £5 million bail out - and so decided not to proceed with the plans. This was in part driven by the different outlook of the UK and its decline as a naval power which made Malta less important. Instead Malta became independent in 1964.

    I still marvel at the fact that the British chose to reject the referendum result which inevitably was seen by many in Malta as a snub. Not least because the British Government had been joint conveners of the referendum.
    The Seychelles wanted to be British, as well, and again we turned them down.

    THE SEYCHELLES

    One of the most beautiful island chains on earth
    Please. Stop.

    I can only double-face palm so many times.
    Also, Mauritius. We kinda forced independence on them. They weren’t that keen.

    It’s not as beautiful as the Seychelles but the seas are magnificent and the food is some of the best in the world

    Sigh

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 15,855
    kle4 said:



    Well done them for being grown ups and sorting it out.

    This is the one I was thinking of - the world's only third order enclave, a piece of India within a piece of Bangladesh within a piece of India within Bangladesh.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahala_Khagrabari

    Another inspiring example is S(ch)lesvig-Holstein. It was swapped back and forth between Denmark and Germany as fortunes rose and fell. After WW1, the Allies offered the Danes as much of it as they wanted. The Danes said nah, this is getting silly, let's have a referendum in each part. Part voted to be in Denmark, part to be in Germany. During WW2, Danish Nazis agitated for reinclusion, but it wasn't a priority for Hitler, so nothing happened. After the war, the Danes again had the option to seize the lost segment back, and turned it down. Although there are minority interest parties on both sides, virtually nobody now wants any change at all.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 15,914
    isam said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are more twists and turns yet in this pandemic. I wonder if the government has contingency if the vaccines prove ineffective to a new strain.

    That reads to me like you’re banking on people saying you’re hoping it goes wrong, so you can argue you’re not!
    Eh? Just concerned. All those stories from Brazil, India or the continent make me wonder if we’re quite as protected as we think we are. Nature finds a way.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,328
    edited March 26
    Jonathan said:

    isam said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are more twists and turns yet in this pandemic. I wonder if the government has contingency if the vaccines prove ineffective to a new strain.

    That reads to me like you’re banking on people saying you’re hoping it goes wrong, so you can argue you’re not!
    Eh? Just concerned. All those stories from Brazil, India or the continent make me wonder if we’re quite as protected as we think we are. Nature finds a way.
    Updated vaccines are coming for the end of summer and big push putting in place systems to get time for updated vaccines down to a matter of weeks from design to deployment.

    Media reports tonight that also work on combined flu / covid jab coming.

    And of course work on huge home built production capacity coming online in next few months
  • isamisam Posts: 35,492
    Jonathan said:

    isam said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are more twists and turns yet in this pandemic. I wonder if the government has contingency if the vaccines prove ineffective to a new strain.

    That reads to me like you’re banking on people saying you’re hoping it goes wrong, so you can argue you’re not!
    Eh? Just concerned. All those stories from Brazil, India or the continent make me wonder if we’re quite as protected as we think we are. Nature finds a way.
    Oh I see, of course
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,037
    ‘Heavy policing’. Right. Some men moved. And then some horses moved

    Has he been to America? They do quite ‘heavy policing’, it often involves shooting people dead
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,328
    edited March 26
    Leon said:

    ‘Heavy policing’. Right. Some men moved. And then some horses moved

    Has he been to America? They do quite ‘heavy policing’, it often involves shooting people dead
    The guy is a biased independent journalist...but is always filming the frontline.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 14,625
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    Apparently the Maltese were rather profligate. In 1950 they had no debt and a grant of £20 million from the Colonial Office. But the politicians overspent to try and stay popular with the voters so by 1955 they needed more money.

    There were discussions about Dominion status but apparently neither the British nor the Maltese liked that solution so Dom Mintoff suggested the solution whereby Malta would become part of the UK with 3 seats in Parliament. Basically they would have had the same status as Northern Ireland. This was approved by 77% of the electorate but on a 59% turnout. But the British decided that Malta would be too expensive - they needed an immediate £5 million bail out - and so decided not to proceed with the plans. This was in part driven by the different outlook of the UK and its decline as a naval power which made Malta less important. Instead Malta became independent in 1964.

    I still marvel at the fact that the British chose to reject the referendum result which inevitably was seen by many in Malta as a snub. Not least because the British Government had been joint conveners of the referendum.
    The Seychelles wanted to be British, as well, and again we turned them down.

    THE SEYCHELLES

    One of the most beautiful island chains on earth
    The French got this right, giving colonies the choice between full status as parts of France or independence, so the sun still never sets on France.
    By all accounts the ones that did get independence got a rather watered down version of it, with France holding most of the strings. I find it interesting that a left-winger is so full of applause for this example of colonial fortitude.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,752
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    Apparently the Maltese were rather profligate. In 1950 they had no debt and a grant of £20 million from the Colonial Office. But the politicians overspent to try and stay popular with the voters so by 1955 they needed more money.

    There were discussions about Dominion status but apparently neither the British nor the Maltese liked that solution so Dom Mintoff suggested the solution whereby Malta would become part of the UK with 3 seats in Parliament. Basically they would have had the same status as Northern Ireland. This was approved by 77% of the electorate but on a 59% turnout. But the British decided that Malta would be too expensive - they needed an immediate £5 million bail out - and so decided not to proceed with the plans. This was in part driven by the different outlook of the UK and its decline as a naval power which made Malta less important. Instead Malta became independent in 1964.

    I still marvel at the fact that the British chose to reject the referendum result which inevitably was seen by many in Malta as a snub. Not least because the British Government had been joint conveners of the referendum.
    The Seychelles wanted to be British, as well, and again we turned them down.

    THE SEYCHELLES

    One of the most beautiful island chains on earth
    The French got this right, giving colonies the choice between full status as parts of France or independence, so the sun still never sets on France.
    There are murmurings towards independence in some of the outremer. I can see New Caledonia going, maybe chunks of Polynesia. And Martinique is a very unhappy place, kept quiet with subsidy

    But yes they did a much better job of hanging on to nice bits of the world, which is galling when we conquered so much more. On the other they can’t get over the fact everywhere speaks English, so history has a way of evening out...
    Some years ago I was in Noumea, which is like a French Mediterranean town with a giant Nickel smelter, processing local ore. New Caledonia is quite mountainous, so the airport to fly out was an hours drive. I was too skint for a taxi so took the local bus to catch our flight. Mrs Foxy and I were the only white people on the bus, the rest being Melanesian nickel workers who had started the weekend early by drinking their wages.

    It was a very hostile atmosphere, with brooding stares at us. Eventually one of our fellow passengers spoke to us. We apologised for not understanding him as we spoke little French. Instantly the atmosphere changed. Once the passengers realised we were not French, it was fine, and we were plied with fruit and cane sprit. They waved us off happily at the airport

    The airport was closed and no buses back, but that is another story!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 40,996
    Leon said:

    ‘Heavy policing’. Right. Some men moved. And then some horses moved

    Has he been to America? They do quite ‘heavy policing’, it often involves shooting people dead
    You don't get Twitter: heavy policing = policing.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 19,575
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't know if that is the best approach, but 20 years ago West Virginia had an obesity rate of 23%, the worst in the country. Just 20 years later that would make it the least obese state. We are following hot on the heels of the yanks.
    So what is the best approach, doc?
    For me, banning the sale of biscuits. Just cannot say no to the buggers.

    More seriously people have talked for years about more emphasis on sport in schools and the like, so either we've not done it, or it hasn't worked, and either way, why not?
    To be honest, not much seems to work. People like junk food and are lazy buggers if given the chance. Against that human nature were doomed.
    Food is too tasty, cheap and convenient for the good of our health and fitness.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 14,625
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't know if that is the best approach, but 20 years ago West Virginia had an obesity rate of 23%, the worst in the country. Just 20 years later that would make it the least obese state. We are following hot on the heels of the yanks.
    So what is the best approach, doc?
    For me, banning the sale of biscuits. Just cannot say no to the buggers.

    More seriously people have talked for years about more emphasis on sport in schools and the like, so either we've not done it, or it hasn't worked, and either way, why not?
    To be honest, not much seems to work. People like junk food and are lazy buggers if given the chance. Against that human nature were doomed.
    Human nature is why we survive, not why we're doomed. I think the issue is fake foods. Nothing wrong with liking sweet things - sweetness tells you the fruit is at maximum ripeness and full of vitamins and minerals. The trouble is we can now take sweetness out of the fruit and put it in a Mars Bar.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 15,914

    Jonathan said:

    isam said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are more twists and turns yet in this pandemic. I wonder if the government has contingency if the vaccines prove ineffective to a new strain.

    That reads to me like you’re banking on people saying you’re hoping it goes wrong, so you can argue you’re not!
    Eh? Just concerned. All those stories from Brazil, India or the continent make me wonder if we’re quite as protected as we think we are. Nature finds a way.
    Updated vaccines are coming for the end of summer and big push putting in place systems to get time for updated vaccines down to a matter of weeks from design to deployment.

    Media reports tonight that also work on combined flu / covid jab coming.

    And of course work on huge home built production capacity coming online in next few months
    That’s positive. Does sound like a never ending arms race. I guess I’m just nervous. Lots of cases, lots of chances to mutate.

    I wonder what would happen in this country if heaven forbid, Boris, Whitty et al. had to come out and say that the first gen vaccines were ineffective against the Mumbai variant and the lockdown had to continue indefinitely. The country would crack. I wonder what, if anything, the government could do in that scenario.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,037
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    Apparently the Maltese were rather profligate. In 1950 they had no debt and a grant of £20 million from the Colonial Office. But the politicians overspent to try and stay popular with the voters so by 1955 they needed more money.

    There were discussions about Dominion status but apparently neither the British nor the Maltese liked that solution so Dom Mintoff suggested the solution whereby Malta would become part of the UK with 3 seats in Parliament. Basically they would have had the same status as Northern Ireland. This was approved by 77% of the electorate but on a 59% turnout. But the British decided that Malta would be too expensive - they needed an immediate £5 million bail out - and so decided not to proceed with the plans. This was in part driven by the different outlook of the UK and its decline as a naval power which made Malta less important. Instead Malta became independent in 1964.

    I still marvel at the fact that the British chose to reject the referendum result which inevitably was seen by many in Malta as a snub. Not least because the British Government had been joint conveners of the referendum.
    The Seychelles wanted to be British, as well, and again we turned them down.

    THE SEYCHELLES

    One of the most beautiful island chains on earth
    The French got this right, giving colonies the choice between full status as parts of France or independence, so the sun still never sets on France.
    There are murmurings towards independence in some of the outremer. I can see New Caledonia going, maybe chunks of Polynesia. And Martinique is a very unhappy place, kept quiet with subsidy

    But yes they did a much better job of hanging on to nice bits of the world, which is galling when we conquered so much more. On the other they can’t get over the fact everywhere speaks English, so history has a way of evening out...
    Some years ago I was in Noumea, which is like a French Mediterranean town with a giant Nickel smelter, processing local ore. New Caledonia is quite mountainous, so the airport to fly out was an hours drive. I was too skint for a taxi so took the local bus to catch our flight. Mrs Foxy and I were the only white people on the bus, the rest being Melanesian nickel workers who had started the weekend early by drinking their wages.

    It was a very hostile atmosphere, with brooding stares at us. Eventually one of our fellow passengers spoke to us. We apologised for not understanding him as we spoke little French. Instantly the atmosphere changed. Once the passengers realised we were not French, it was fine, and we were plied with fruit and cane sprit. They waved us off happily at the airport

    The airport was closed and no buses back, but that is another story!
    Fascinating. I’ve had similar experiences in other parts of the domtoms. They accept French subsidy but they really don’t like the French or like being thought of as French. Strange. The French Caribbean is particularly noticeable for this.

    The English speaking Caribbean generally lives up to its stereotype: relaxed, hedonistic, super friendly. Have another banana. Lots of smiles. Many islands have drug or crime issues but they are universal. The smiles are sincere

    Far fewer smiles on French islands. Surly resentment is the tone.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,752

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    Apparently the Maltese were rather profligate. In 1950 they had no debt and a grant of £20 million from the Colonial Office. But the politicians overspent to try and stay popular with the voters so by 1955 they needed more money.

    There were discussions about Dominion status but apparently neither the British nor the Maltese liked that solution so Dom Mintoff suggested the solution whereby Malta would become part of the UK with 3 seats in Parliament. Basically they would have had the same status as Northern Ireland. This was approved by 77% of the electorate but on a 59% turnout. But the British decided that Malta would be too expensive - they needed an immediate £5 million bail out - and so decided not to proceed with the plans. This was in part driven by the different outlook of the UK and its decline as a naval power which made Malta less important. Instead Malta became independent in 1964.

    I still marvel at the fact that the British chose to reject the referendum result which inevitably was seen by many in Malta as a snub. Not least because the British Government had been joint conveners of the referendum.
    The Seychelles wanted to be British, as well, and again we turned them down.

    THE SEYCHELLES

    One of the most beautiful island chains on earth
    The French got this right, giving colonies the choice between full status as parts of France or independence, so the sun still never sets on France.
    By all accounts the ones that did get independence got a rather watered down version of it, with France holding most of the strings. I find it interesting that a left-winger is so full of applause for this example of colonial fortitude.
    Choosing to be full citizens with voting rights and representation, and equal legal status is different to being a colony. It is not something that we offered our colonies, indeed still don't.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166
    edited March 26
    Leon said:

    Imagine how much more fun UK elections would be if we kept all these old colonies and incorporated those we still have.

    ‘It’s a tight race in Gozo, malta’

    ‘Labour doing well here in grand cayman island’

    ‘Reporting now from the famous beach of la digue, in the Seychelles, where the lib dems are putting up a stiff fight’

    ‘Breaking news from South Georgia: a lost deposit for the guano party, which is in coalition with UKIP’

    The local parties in Gibraltar apparently didn't stand in European Parliament elections (presumably as little point given it was part of the SW England region), and instead endorsed the UK parties accordingly - 2014 saw a 49% swing to the LDs, and over the course of the period they could vote in them the Conservative vote dropped from 69.52% in 2004 to 2.7% in 2019, below even that of the Brexit Party.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_European_Parliament_election_in_Gibraltar
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 14,625
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    Apparently the Maltese were rather profligate. In 1950 they had no debt and a grant of £20 million from the Colonial Office. But the politicians overspent to try and stay popular with the voters so by 1955 they needed more money.

    There were discussions about Dominion status but apparently neither the British nor the Maltese liked that solution so Dom Mintoff suggested the solution whereby Malta would become part of the UK with 3 seats in Parliament. Basically they would have had the same status as Northern Ireland. This was approved by 77% of the electorate but on a 59% turnout. But the British decided that Malta would be too expensive - they needed an immediate £5 million bail out - and so decided not to proceed with the plans. This was in part driven by the different outlook of the UK and its decline as a naval power which made Malta less important. Instead Malta became independent in 1964.

    I still marvel at the fact that the British chose to reject the referendum result which inevitably was seen by many in Malta as a snub. Not least because the British Government had been joint conveners of the referendum.
    The Seychelles wanted to be British, as well, and again we turned them down.

    THE SEYCHELLES

    One of the most beautiful island chains on earth
    The French got this right, giving colonies the choice between full status as parts of France or independence, so the sun still never sets on France.
    By all accounts the ones that did get independence got a rather watered down version of it, with France holding most of the strings. I find it interesting that a left-winger is so full of applause for this example of colonial fortitude.
    Choosing to be full citizens with voting rights and representation, and equal legal status is different to being a colony. It is not something that we offered our colonies, indeed still don't.
    Fair point.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166
    edited March 26

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't know if that is the best approach, but 20 years ago West Virginia had an obesity rate of 23%, the worst in the country. Just 20 years later that would make it the least obese state. We are following hot on the heels of the yanks.
    So what is the best approach, doc?
    For me, banning the sale of biscuits. Just cannot say no to the buggers.

    More seriously people have talked for years about more emphasis on sport in schools and the like, so either we've not done it, or it hasn't worked, and either way, why not?
    To be honest, not much seems to work. People like junk food and are lazy buggers if given the chance. Against that human nature were doomed.
    Human nature is why we survive, not why we're doomed. I think the issue is fake foods. Nothing wrong with liking sweet things - sweetness tells you the fruit is at maximum ripeness and full of vitamins and minerals. The trouble is we can now take sweetness out of the fruit and put it in a Mars Bar.
    Yes, but that's human nature too - to maximise the things we like. We're just a lot better at it now, to the point it can kill us.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,752
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gibraltar, which is perhaps the first country in the world to vaccinate all adults, had 1 new case today

    1

    Why can't we all go on holidays there?

    It's a British territory, so it should have the same rules as the channel isles quite frankly.
    I assume that you're joking.

    It's a market town with a small mountain attached. Somewhat lacking in space for about sixteen million fat Brits to flop about on beaches and get pissed.
    We definitely got the wrong end of the Treaty of Amiens - we kept Gibraltar, Spain got Menorca.
    Gibraltar is strategic days. Still has value now and through that and the Cyprus bases we can basically lock down oversight of the Med.
    Some suggestions that the Government might have another go at the failed experiment with Malta, and attempt to formally integrate Gibraltar into the UK. Would give it representation in Parliament, although it would retain a very high degree of autonomy.

    Such a novel arrangement might, perhaps, be called DevoMax, and getting it to work in a way acceptable to all concerned could provide a model to use in the future...
    I am still amazed at the fact that the Maltese voted to integrate with the UK in 1956 and we turned them down.
    I had never heard of such a thing until the other day and am flabbergasted by the revelation. I hope they had a damn good reason, it isn't every day people ask to join you and don't have some menacing power nearby telling you not to do it.
    Apparently the Maltese were rather profligate. In 1950 they had no debt and a grant of £20 million from the Colonial Office. But the politicians overspent to try and stay popular with the voters so by 1955 they needed more money.

    There were discussions about Dominion status but apparently neither the British nor the Maltese liked that solution so Dom Mintoff suggested the solution whereby Malta would become part of the UK with 3 seats in Parliament. Basically they would have had the same status as Northern Ireland. This was approved by 77% of the electorate but on a 59% turnout. But the British decided that Malta would be too expensive - they needed an immediate £5 million bail out - and so decided not to proceed with the plans. This was in part driven by the different outlook of the UK and its decline as a naval power which made Malta less important. Instead Malta became independent in 1964.

    I still marvel at the fact that the British chose to reject the referendum result which inevitably was seen by many in Malta as a snub. Not least because the British Government had been joint conveners of the referendum.
    The Seychelles wanted to be British, as well, and again we turned them down.

    THE SEYCHELLES

    One of the most beautiful island chains on earth
    The French got this right, giving colonies the choice between full status as parts of France or independence, so the sun still never sets on France.
    There are murmurings towards independence in some of the outremer. I can see New Caledonia going, maybe chunks of Polynesia. And Martinique is a very unhappy place, kept quiet with subsidy

    But yes they did a much better job of hanging on to nice bits of the world, which is galling when we conquered so much more. On the other they can’t get over the fact everywhere speaks English, so history has a way of evening out...
    Some years ago I was in Noumea, which is like a French Mediterranean town with a giant Nickel smelter, processing local ore. New Caledonia is quite mountainous, so the airport to fly out was an hours drive. I was too skint for a taxi so took the local bus to catch our flight. Mrs Foxy and I were the only white people on the bus, the rest being Melanesian nickel workers who had started the weekend early by drinking their wages.

    It was a very hostile atmosphere, with brooding stares at us. Eventually one of our fellow passengers spoke to us. We apologised for not understanding him as we spoke little French. Instantly the atmosphere changed. Once the passengers realised we were not French, it was fine, and we were plied with fruit and cane sprit. They waved us off happily at the airport

    The airport was closed and no buses back, but that is another story!
    Fascinating. I’ve had similar experiences in other parts of the domtoms. They accept French subsidy but they really don’t like the French or like being thought of as French. Strange. The French Caribbean is particularly noticeable for this.

    The English speaking Caribbean generally lives up to its stereotype: relaxed, hedonistic, super friendly. Have another banana. Lots of smiles. Many islands have drug or crime issues but they are universal. The smiles are sincere

    Far fewer smiles on French islands. Surly resentment is the tone.
    I have heard that of Martinique.

    New Caledonia is rather a special case, with a reasonable sized white town and a melanesian hinterland. Each is effectively self governing now, which has reduced friction.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 23,469



    My guess is that HM's govt of the day (Tory) did NOT want to pay for raising Maltese living standards to UK levels (part of the proposal).

    Also suspect fact that Maltese are "Levintine" and NOT Anglo-Saxon (or Celt) MIGHT have had something to do with it. Despite their more-than-loyal record during WW2.

    Does anyone here actually knows what the real deal was?

    Addendum - Just saw the comment by RT downthread.

    The full details of the proposal can be found here:

    https://vassallohistory.wordpress.com/parliament/referenda/

    If you scroll down they have the original proposal.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,037
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Imagine how much more fun UK elections would be if we kept all these old colonies and incorporated those we still have.

    ‘It’s a tight race in Gozo, malta’

    ‘Labour doing well here in grand cayman island’

    ‘Reporting now from the famous beach of la digue, in the Seychelles, where the lib dems are putting up a stiff fight’

    ‘Breaking news from South Georgia: a lost deposit for the guano party, which is in coalition with UKIP’

    The local parties in Gibraltar apparently didn't stand in European Parliament elections (presumably as little point given it was part of the SW England region), and instead endorsed the UK parties accordingly - 2014 saw a 49% swing to the LDs, and over the course of the period they could vote in them the Conservative vote dropped from 69.52% in 2004 to 2.7% in 2019, below even that of the Brexit Party.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_European_Parliament_election_in_Gibraltar
    We really should incorporate- if they want - all the remaining fragments of the empire. Falklands, Caribbean, Indian Ocean, Bermuda, Gibraltar, Pitcairn, Tristan. South Georgia.

    We could even put in a late bid for PNG, Tuvalu, the Solomons
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    isam said:

    Jonathan said:

    There are more twists and turns yet in this pandemic. I wonder if the government has contingency if the vaccines prove ineffective to a new strain.

    That reads to me like you’re banking on people saying you’re hoping it goes wrong, so you can argue you’re not!
    Eh? Just concerned. All those stories from Brazil, India or the continent make me wonder if we’re quite as protected as we think we are. Nature finds a way.
    Updated vaccines are coming for the end of summer and big push putting in place systems to get time for updated vaccines down to a matter of weeks from design to deployment.

    Media reports tonight that also work on combined flu / covid jab coming.

    And of course work on huge home built production capacity coming online in next few months
    That’s positive. Does sound like a never ending arms race. I guess I’m just nervous. Lots of cases, lots of chances to mutate.

    I wonder what would happen in this country if heaven forbid, Boris, Whitty et al. had to come out and say that the first gen vaccines were ineffective against the Mumbai variant and the lockdown had to continue indefinitely. The country would crack. I wonder what, if anything, the government could do in that scenario.
    Listening to a very persuasive woman the other day.

    The Corona virus that is causing Covid is essentially a virus that is stable in the bat population, bats have adapts and developed the required proteins to be almost immune and the virus mutates very very slowly in bats as it has been in that species for an incredibly long time.

    The virus has jumped to humans and is now going through rapid mutations to adapt to be best suited in humans, evolution through natural selection and all that.

    At some point the virus will find a mutation that best suits it's new human hosts, until that time mutations will continue at pace and possibly become more rapid until the virus adapts to it's new host an settles down.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166
    Looking up electoral facts has tossed up an EU body I had never heard of before.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Committee_of_the_Regions
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 14,625
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't know if that is the best approach, but 20 years ago West Virginia had an obesity rate of 23%, the worst in the country. Just 20 years later that would make it the least obese state. We are following hot on the heels of the yanks.
    So what is the best approach, doc?
    For me, banning the sale of biscuits. Just cannot say no to the buggers.

    More seriously people have talked for years about more emphasis on sport in schools and the like, so either we've not done it, or it hasn't worked, and either way, why not?
    To be honest, not much seems to work. People like junk food and are lazy buggers if given the chance. Against that human nature were doomed.
    Human nature is why we survive, not why we're doomed. I think the issue is fake foods. Nothing wrong with liking sweet things - sweetness tells you the fruit is at maximum ripeness and full of vitamins and minerals. The trouble is we can now take sweetness out of the fruit and put it in a Mars Bar.
    Yes, but that's human nature too - to maximise the things we like. We're just a lot better at it now, to the point it can kill us.
    Yes, in the wider sense that's true. However, I feel what Foxy was saying was that humans' propensity to prefer leisure to effort and fatty and sweet food (paraphrasing here - I know he said 'junk') to carrot sticks is our downfall - whereas they're actually evolutionary instincts that have served us well for thousands of years. I don't think we can 'win' when we see getting healthy as a battle against our own instincts. For me it isn't that, it's listening to our bodies, and trying to go back to what it actually is that they are asking us for.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,166
    edited March 26
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Imagine how much more fun UK elections would be if we kept all these old colonies and incorporated those we still have.

    ‘It’s a tight race in Gozo, malta’

    ‘Labour doing well here in grand cayman island’

    ‘Reporting now from the famous beach of la digue, in the Seychelles, where the lib dems are putting up a stiff fight’

    ‘Breaking news from South Georgia: a lost deposit for the guano party, which is in coalition with UKIP’

    The local parties in Gibraltar apparently didn't stand in European Parliament elections (presumably as little point given it was part of the SW England region), and instead endorsed the UK parties accordingly - 2014 saw a 49% swing to the LDs, and over the course of the period they could vote in them the Conservative vote dropped from 69.52% in 2004 to 2.7% in 2019, below even that of the Brexit Party.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_European_Parliament_election_in_Gibraltar
    We really should incorporate- if they want - all the remaining fragments of the empire. Falklands, Caribbean, Indian Ocean, Bermuda, Gibraltar, Pitcairn, Tristan. South Georgia.

    We could even put in a late bid for PNG, Tuvalu, the Solomons
    Well, Tuvalu, I believe the smallest independent state by population (I don't count Vatican City), did reject abolition of the monarchy only 13 years ago, but it'd be an odd thing to go Indy and then change your mind.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,328
    edited March 26
    Over-70s will start to get booster Covid vaccines from September to protect them from new virus variants

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/03/26/exclusive-over-70s-get-booster-covid-vaccines-september/
  • CookieCookie Posts: 2,521

    kle4 said:



    Well done them for being grown ups and sorting it out.

    This is the one I was thinking of - the world's only third order enclave, a piece of India within a piece of Bangladesh within a piece of India within Bangladesh.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahala_Khagrabari

    Another inspiring example is S(ch)lesvig-Holstein. It was swapped back and forth between Denmark and Germany as fortunes rose and fell. After WW1, the Allies offered the Danes as much of it as they wanted. The Danes said nah, this is getting silly, let's have a referendum in each part. Part voted to be in Denmark, part to be in Germany. During WW2, Danish Nazis agitated for reinclusion, but it wasn't a priority for Hitler, so nothing happened. After the war, the Danes again had the option to seize the lost segment back, and turned it down. Although there are minority interest parties on both sides, virtually nobody now wants any change at all.
    I once took it on myself to find out the history of Denmark. I bought a book off the internet, which turned out to have been written in the 1850s in Danish and translated into English. The book concluded that after a long and difficult history, everything in Denmark is now brilliant and God Save the King.
    I'm all for an uplifting ending. I wish some of today's academic tomes could take a more furiously optimistic approach.
    Anyway, the point of all this is that up until 1855 at least, Danish history appeared to consist of expending vast amounts of time and resources over several generations trying to integrate Schleswig-Holstein into the Danish state, only to lose it again almost immediately, over and over again.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 14,625
    There was a Treaty of Schleswig-Holstein was there not? Did it in history. I cannot for the life of me remember who what where how or why.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 14,294
    I’ve decided to apply for the CPS solicitors grad scheme. It could be really interesting I reckon.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 10,374
    edited March 26
    Talking of disappointing places in the UK, an awful lot of the south-east — which is wealthy on paper — is pretty awful in reality. Places like Woking for example. The problem is the population density in those areas. The opposite is true of a lot of places outside the south-east.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,037
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Imagine how much more fun UK elections would be if we kept all these old colonies and incorporated those we still have.

    ‘It’s a tight race in Gozo, malta’

    ‘Labour doing well here in grand cayman island’

    ‘Reporting now from the famous beach of la digue, in the Seychelles, where the lib dems are putting up a stiff fight’

    ‘Breaking news from South Georgia: a lost deposit for the guano party, which is in coalition with UKIP’

    The local parties in Gibraltar apparently didn't stand in European Parliament elections (presumably as little point given it was part of the SW England region), and instead endorsed the UK parties accordingly - 2014 saw a 49% swing to the LDs, and over the course of the period they could vote in them the Conservative vote dropped from 69.52% in 2004 to 2.7% in 2019, below even that of the Brexit Party.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_European_Parliament_election_in_Gibraltar
    We really should incorporate- if they want - all the remaining fragments of the empire. Falklands, Caribbean, Indian Ocean, Bermuda, Gibraltar, Pitcairn, Tristan. South Georgia.

    We could even put in a late bid for PNG, Tuvalu, the Solomons
    Well, Tuvalu, I believe the smallest independent state by population (I don't count Vatican City), did reject abolition of the monarchy only 13 years ago, but it'd be an odd thing to go Indy and then change your mind.
    Papua New Guinea would be the big one. 9 million people. Vast incredible beautiful challenging island. Many stunning offshore islands.

    Lots of social problems, but also a land of enormous potential.

    A good partner and project for post brexit Britain.

    It was expected, when they went Indy, they would become a republic. They didn’t. They prefer the crown and links to Britain. Let us make them the fifth constituent nation in the UK
Sign In or Register to comment.