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After all these months since he ceased to be an MEP Farage has found a new role – politicalbetting.c

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited March 21 in General
After all these months since he ceased to be an MEP Farage has found a new role – politicalbetting.com

Suprise the Remoaner in your life with a personal message from me on Cameo. Check out my profile here: https://t.co/uPdkQjydNm pic.twitter.com/SO6nM5eWOH

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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 32,796
    Third
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 14,599
    Nice of you to give Farage a plug.
  • Shameful by Boris Johnson, betraying the armed forces and the manifesto in one swoop.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1373765153536278536
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 5,008
    edited March 21
    Not quite sure why this deserves a new thread.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 53,035
    alex_ said:

    Not quite sure why this deserves a new thread.

    New thread is to stop the old thread getting too long.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 1,474
    That looks like the worst episode of Countryfile of all time. Might even drop the "o".
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 26,402
    edited March 21

    Nice of you to give Farage a plug.

    Perhaps Leon could do the honours, gratis for services rendered to BrexitUK.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 53,035
    Leon said:
    So what they can't get in honest negotiation, they steal?

    And the argument that AZN hasn't fulfilled its obligation to the EU is complete bollocks. They've also not met their obligation to the UK.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,142
    Other than seeking to use the EU's overstepping on Article 16 for political advantage, I am genuinely extremely surprised Boris and co have not responded in kind to the wilder comments from various EU figures, especially the ones seeking to claim the UK is pushing vaccine nationalism.

    Have they actually learned self control, or is it just that, domestically, the EU helps Boris with Brexit issues every time they rail at the UK over vaccines so the government simply cannot get angry in return?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 4,727
    Leon said:
    This supports Max's thesis that this is just for show. Which is better news for Britain but truly terrible news for the EU, because it is a PR calamity on stilts. It will play well with some EU citizens for about 36 hours until they realise it is meaningless posturing, then it will all go south again

    And it makes an amiable EU/UK relationship near-impossible
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 6,488

    With the defence review coming up I have been discussing the latest pre-announcement announcements with a friend who is a former RAF strategic planner and intelligence officer. He recommended the following link to give some insight into the thinking within the MOD at the moment.

    https://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com/2021/03/into-grey-zone-uk-military-operations.html

    TPS is an astroturfing effort run from within the MoD that pushes the government line.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,086
    RobD said:

    alex_ said:

    Not quite sure why this deserves a new thread.

    New thread is to stop the old thread getting too long.
    It's not as if there's anything serious like a possible vaccine trade war with the EU in the offing...
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 10,979
    Farage has been busy mixing Bristol Molotov cocktails.

    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1373737990732800010

    One part bile, one part bitter.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 32,796
    That our government is now trying to lecture the EU on respecting agreements and international law lacks a little credibility, sadly.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,352
    Well it's kind of Nige to make the offer, but somehow I don't think this would go down well for my wife's birthday present.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 39,928
    IanB2 said:

    That our government is now trying to lecture the EU on respecting agreements and international law lacks a little credibility, sadly.

    Are you defending the EU idiotic behaviour
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 10,979

    Shameful by Boris Johnson, betraying the armed forces and the manifesto in one swoop.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1373765153536278536

    Wait til you find out about Duncan Sandys and Defence Reviews.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 39,695
    Can we run a sweep on how many personalised messages OGH gets from Farage?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 5,008
    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    This supports Max's thesis that this is just for show. Which is better news for Britain but truly terrible news for the EU, because it is a PR calamity on stilts. It will play well with some EU citizens for about 36 hours until they realise it is meaningless posturing, then it will all go south again
    Make your mind up.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 4,727
    edited March 21
    kle4 said:

    Other than seeking to use the EU's overstepping on Article 16 for political advantage, I am genuinely extremely surprised Boris and co have not responded in kind to the wilder comments from various EU figures, especially the ones seeking to claim the UK is pushing vaccine nationalism.

    Have they actually learned self control, or is it just that, domestically, the EU helps Boris with Brexit issues every time they rail at the UK over vaccines so the government simply cannot get angry in return?

    Bit of both, I think

    For a Brexiteering government, you could not have scripted 2021 better (in terms of politics, not the human suffering). Every Leaver argument (over sovereignty, bureaucracy, transparency) has been vindicated a thousand times over

    Tragic, but true. All Boris has to do is say nothing and look reasonable. I have a lot of Remainer friends, they are all deathly quiet, or actively angry at Brussels. Only the absolute loons are holding out
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 32,796

    IanB2 said:

    That our government is now trying to lecture the EU on respecting agreements and international law lacks a little credibility, sadly.

    Are you defending the EU idiotic behaviour
    Certainly not.

    Nevertheless our own government’s prior idiocy weakens our moral position considerably.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 5,008
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Other than seeking to use the EU's overstepping on Article 16 for political advantage, I am genuinely extremely surprised Boris and co have not responded in kind to the wilder comments from various EU figures, especially the ones seeking to claim the UK is pushing vaccine nationalism.

    Have they actually learned self control, or is it just that, domestically, the EU helps Boris with Brexit issues every time they rail at the UK over vaccines so the government simply cannot get angry in return?

    Bit of both, I think
    EU being unreasonable/crazy on vaccine stuff (whilst not actually having a severe impact on the UK rollout) helps with the other issues rumbling on - Verification of trade deal, Northern Ireland etc.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,199
    Clearly the EU has been busy briefing....they can't back down now as it will look even worse.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,142
    edited March 21

    Andy_JS said:
    Bristol police are some of the wokiest in the country.

    The city threatens to become the British Portland.
    You can be woke and still oppose the smashing up of police stations...
    You certainly can, though what people mean by woke differs, and the reason it seems to mostly be used as a perjorative (though interestingly it seems to have made a bit of a comeback in its intended meaning in 2020) is the steretypical 'woke' image is that of the extreme people, like 'political activist', 'social media influencer', or 'free speech advocate'.

    Pulpstar said:

    I am trying to work out which I might get first, my jab or an nvidia 3090....sounds like I might well be waiting until well into the summer for both.

    Which group are you in ?
    Gamers never leave their bedrooms - very low risk.
    Ridiculous - my gaming gear is in the living room, so I have to move a bit.

    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    It's a Guardian front page, as well

    https://twitter.com/guardiannews/status/1373756516084375562?s=20


    Certainly the main story for tomorrow. Brace

    The Guardian front page is what we were talking about earlier. It is a hypothetical based on the EU blocking non AZ exports. All the reports this evening have restricted the suggestion to blocking AZ (only) exports of undetermined nature.

    This is entirely consistent with the EU complaining consisently about AZ not meeting their delivery targets (and them claiming that they are in breach of contract for doing so). They have no logical grounds (given where they have pitched their tent) to pivot this to targeting companies, such as Pfizer, which are hitting their delivery targets.
    I know. I wasn't arguing about the facts of the "EU ban". I was just pointing out that this is going to be huge news.

    The EU has got a big splash in UK media, and that will spread.
    Maybe. Or it just makes the Guardian look stupid for splashing on the "wrong" story.

    Probably find their later editions change.
    This is definitely not the "wrong" story. This will be headline news tomorrow on TV. Guardian and FT just got there first; fair play to them for good journalism

    The story in the Guardian is about banning Pfizer exports, and a crippling blow to the UK vaccine rollout. The actual story and proposal is about blocking AZ exports (and there are strong doubts expressed whether this will have any impact on the rollout (i'm attracted by the theory that this is UK attempting to replace thh 5m doses from the Indian setback) and about whether the latter amounts to anything other than tokenism).

    Unless something changes, it's clearly the 'wrong' story, both in facts about what the EU is proposing and consequences for the UK.
    No, we just don't know, The EU has already explicitly threatened to block "vaccine exports" to the UK, Given that this must mean Pfizer (only AZ ingredients, if anything, go EU>UK) we need to be concerned. Very concerned.

    Today the EU is obviously briefing British journalists that they might just go for precursors, OR they might do the whole Pfizer thing. Is it brinkmanship? The Nixon strategy? What?

    This is not the wrong story. This is THE story. It threatens to blow up the UK/EU relationship for a decade or two. It is monumental.

    Arguably, just by putting this story out there, the EU has fucked its reputation in the UK, even with many Remainers, for a loooooong time. Because it comes after all their other insanities. It can't be dismissed as a one-off

    What I don’t understand it that the EU keeps ramping the rhetoric up.

    It really doesn’t care. All that matters is the project.
    People ramp up rhetoric either because they are desperate or in need of a distraction (as there's no advantage otherwise, even if you are sincerely furious).

    Problem is stuff like this takes on a life of its own, and what may begin as a performance becomes real and you can quickly cause far greater damage than you intended.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 39,928
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    That our government is now trying to lecture the EU on respecting agreements and international law lacks a little credibility, sadly.

    Are you defending the EU idiotic behaviour
    Certainly not.

    Nevertheless our own government’s prior idiocy weakens our moral position considerably.
    I think you will find the public disagrees with you if this happens
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,086
    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    This supports Max's thesis that this is just for show. Which is better news for Britain but truly terrible news for the EU, because it is a PR calamity on stilts. It will play well with some EU citizens for about 36 hours until they realise it is meaningless posturing, then it will all go south again

    And it makes an amiable EU/UK relationship near-impossible
    Yes, I'm not making any judgements on the non-vaccine downsides becuase there's too many to go into. Specific to vaccines and our own vaccine programme I don't think this makes any difference and I'm not sure by what mechanism the EU specifically will reject AZ requests to export vaccines produced by Halix. Under their own treaties that is a national competence and the Netherlands is one of the countries that is against export bans and has made clear like Belgium that they aren't going to sacrifice their own pharma industry to bail out the EU's failings. The EU will need to agree some kind of unanimous treaty amendment to hand this power to the EU. Again, I'm sceptical that this is going to happen at the virtual summit, Belgium, Sweden and the Netherlands have got far, far too much to lose.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,176
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    That our government is now trying to lecture the EU on respecting agreements and international law lacks a little credibility, sadly.

    Are you defending the EU idiotic behaviour
    Certainly not.

    Nevertheless our own government’s prior idiocy weakens our moral position considerably.
    How many critically-needed medicines have we stolen from the EU in the past? Is it zero?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 4,727
    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    This supports Max's thesis that this is just for show. Which is better news for Britain but truly terrible news for the EU, because it is a PR calamity on stilts. It will play well with some EU citizens for about 36 hours until they realise it is meaningless posturing, then it will all go south again
    Make your mind up.

    No one can be blamed for being a tad confused by the EU's behaviour. It is the political equivalent of self-harming, late onset, paranoid schizophrenia
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,142
    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    This supports Max's thesis that this is just for show. Which is better news for Britain but truly terrible news for the EU, because it is a PR calamity on stilts. It will play well with some EU citizens for about 36 hours until they realise it is meaningless posturing, then it will all go south again
    Make your mind up.

    Like asking gravity not to draw things together.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 1,034
    Dura_Ace said:

    With the defence review coming up I have been discussing the latest pre-announcement announcements with a friend who is a former RAF strategic planner and intelligence officer. He recommended the following link to give some insight into the thinking within the MOD at the moment.

    https://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com/2021/03/into-grey-zone-uk-military-operations.html

    TPS is an astroturfing effort run from within the MoD that pushes the government line.
    What do you recommend as alternative Ace?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 36,860
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    This supports Max's thesis that this is just for show. Which is better news for Britain but truly terrible news for the EU, because it is a PR calamity on stilts. It will play well with some EU citizens for about 36 hours until they realise it is meaningless posturing, then it will all go south again

    And it makes an amiable EU/UK relationship near-impossible
    Yes, I'm not making any judgements on the non-vaccine downsides becuase there's too many to go into. Specific to vaccines and our own vaccine programme I don't think this makes any difference and I'm not sure by what mechanism the EU specifically will reject AZ requests to export vaccines produced by Halix. Under their own treaties that is a national competence and the Netherlands is one of the countries that is against export bans and has made clear like Belgium that they aren't going to sacrifice their own pharma industry to bail out the EU's failings. The EU will need to agree some kind of unanimous treaty amendment to hand this power to the EU. Again, I'm sceptical that this is going to happen at the virtual summit, Belgium, Sweden and the Netherlands have got far, far too much to lose.
    The EU itself could earn the title of being the sick man of Europe if they go on like this.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,142

    Well it's kind of Nige to make the offer, but somehow I don't think this would go down well for my wife's birthday present.

    Clearly more of an anniversary thing. I think 'shameless cash grabbing politico' is the traditional gift in the 14th year.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 5,008
    Dura_Ace said:

    With the defence review coming up I have been discussing the latest pre-announcement announcements with a friend who is a former RAF strategic planner and intelligence officer. He recommended the following link to give some insight into the thinking within the MOD at the moment.

    https://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com/2021/03/into-grey-zone-uk-military-operations.html

    TPS is an astroturfing effort run from within the MoD that pushes the government line.
    Given that the link was recommended to give some insight into current MOD thinking, that is hardly a disqualifying accusation!



  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,086
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    That our government is now trying to lecture the EU on respecting agreements and international law lacks a little credibility, sadly.

    Are you defending the EU idiotic behaviour
    Certainly not.

    Nevertheless our own government’s prior idiocy weakens our moral position considerably.
    It really doesn't. The attempt to draw a false equivalence by pro-EU remainers is a bit sad.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 4,598
    fpt

    I've just been reading Francis Fukuyama's wrongly maligned The End Of History And The Last Man. The final 'Last Man' section asks how satisfied we will actually all be with secure liberal democracy. On the uprisings of 1968 I quote:

    'Those students who temporarily took over Paris and brought down General de Gaulle had no rational reason to rebel, as they were for the most part pampered offspring of one of the freest and most prosperous societies on earth. But it was precisely the absence of struggle and sacrifice in their middle class lives that led them to take to the streets and take on the police. While many of them were infatuated with unworkable fragments of ideas about Maoism, they had no particularly coherent vision of a better society. The substance of their protest however was a matter of indifference; what they rejected was life in a society in which ideals had somehow become impossible.'
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,142

    IanB2 said:

    That our government is now trying to lecture the EU on respecting agreements and international law lacks a little credibility, sadly.

    Are you defending the EU idiotic behaviour
    Nothing in his comment suggested that. But while our particular government may not be ideally placed to comment on such matters - and notably has done seemingly the bare minimum in doing so - their own credibility in such comments is not really a factor in determining the reasonableness of others, since two wrongs do not make a right.

    So our gov being awful on something can be true, but not really relevant in a specific moment.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,370
    I have to say, while I don't have any particular objection to Farage earning money this way I do find it weird that anyone would pay for it. Not just because it is him. I wouldn't pay £75 (or £5 for that matter) for a personalised video message from literally any political figure. They aren't cool or funny, that's just not the sort of person they are.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,352
    Our EU friends have lost their minds. Either it's just inane, Boris-style bluster, in which case they are trashing their credibility for no purpose, or they are serious, in which case it's a massive exercise in self-harm. Either way it's all downside and no upside.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,199

    Our EU friends have lost their minds. Either it's just inane, Boris-style bluster, in which case they are trashing their credibility for no purpose, or they are serious, in which case it's a massive exercise in self-harm. Either way it's all downside and no upside.

    With friends like this....who needs enemies.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 4,727
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    This supports Max's thesis that this is just for show. Which is better news for Britain but truly terrible news for the EU, because it is a PR calamity on stilts. It will play well with some EU citizens for about 36 hours until they realise it is meaningless posturing, then it will all go south again

    And it makes an amiable EU/UK relationship near-impossible
    Yes, I'm not making any judgements on the non-vaccine downsides becuase there's too many to go into. Specific to vaccines and our own vaccine programme I don't think this makes any difference and I'm not sure by what mechanism the EU specifically will reject AZ requests to export vaccines produced by Halix. Under their own treaties that is a national competence and the Netherlands is one of the countries that is against export bans and has made clear like Belgium that they aren't going to sacrifice their own pharma industry to bail out the EU's failings. The EU will need to agree some kind of unanimous treaty amendment to hand this power to the EU. Again, I'm sceptical that this is going to happen at the virtual summit, Belgium, Sweden and the Netherlands have got far, far too much to lose.
    I tend to agree BUT the Netherlands has form in terms of finally folding to Paris/Berlin. They hated the Covid bail-out fund but agreed in the end.

    I think they're stuck between the logic of what you say (they can see this is mad) but also the frantic panic of German and French politicians: the CDU staring at an historic meltdown, Macron terrified he might go out in the 1st round, or might even lose to Le Pen. By contrast, Rutte has scraped another term, probably, so is not afraid of his voters

    But he is afraid of Germany and France
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 5,008
    Just a quick question about the issue of national approvals for vaccine exports. Are there actually any hard rules preventing EU countries from doing side deals on approved vaccines? If it looked like Netherland and/or Belgium were wavering at all and thinking about it, could the UK offer them, say, 10-20% of the shipment? (basically pro-rata). It would probably massively increase their existing supplies if they got to keep the lot.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,142
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    That our government is now trying to lecture the EU on respecting agreements and international law lacks a little credibility, sadly.

    Are you defending the EU idiotic behaviour
    Certainly not.

    Nevertheless our own government’s prior idiocy weakens our moral position considerably.
    No it doesn't. Children are taught that Person A doing wrong doesn't make it ok for Person B. And the moral position of us and the EU exists regardless of the past actions of either - so having the moral high ground before doesn't mean someone cannot lose it now, nor that not having it before means they cannot have it now.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,086

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    This supports Max's thesis that this is just for show. Which is better news for Britain but truly terrible news for the EU, because it is a PR calamity on stilts. It will play well with some EU citizens for about 36 hours until they realise it is meaningless posturing, then it will all go south again

    And it makes an amiable EU/UK relationship near-impossible
    Yes, I'm not making any judgements on the non-vaccine downsides becuase there's too many to go into. Specific to vaccines and our own vaccine programme I don't think this makes any difference and I'm not sure by what mechanism the EU specifically will reject AZ requests to export vaccines produced by Halix. Under their own treaties that is a national competence and the Netherlands is one of the countries that is against export bans and has made clear like Belgium that they aren't going to sacrifice their own pharma industry to bail out the EU's failings. The EU will need to agree some kind of unanimous treaty amendment to hand this power to the EU. Again, I'm sceptical that this is going to happen at the virtual summit, Belgium, Sweden and the Netherlands have got far, far too much to lose.
    The EU itself could earn the title of being the sick man of Europe if they go on like this.
    I just think it's all a bit mental. The solution in January was "how much money and who wants it" to every single pharma company in the world to help increase AZ, Pfizer and Moderna supplies. There seemed to be some positive moves for Pfizer but the amount of money was tiny and delivery schedules far too long.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 4,727

    Our EU friends have lost their minds. Either it's just inane, Boris-style bluster, in which case they are trashing their credibility for no purpose, or they are serious, in which case it's a massive exercise in self-harm. Either way it's all downside and no upside.

    It is quite sad for Merkel. So many years of dull but worthy competence, solid, dutiful and capable - but this is her swan song.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,244

    Nice of you to give Farage a plug.

    I thought Leon hands out the plugs round here.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 5,008
    O/T - anyone know why Spain haven't released any numbers for 3 days now? Are they struggling for new ideas in manipulating their numbers downwards?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,142

    Our EU friends have lost their minds. Either it's just inane, Boris-style bluster, in which case they are trashing their credibility for no purpose, or they are serious, in which case it's a massive exercise in self-harm. Either way it's all downside and no upside.

    It's just weird - people haven't seemingly reported massive amounts of public discontent in the EU despite some grumbling, their level of vaccinations has been going up, and the supply is set to be much larger quite soon.

    So the risks of a messy legal argument with the UK (which they seem to have been seeking for over a month, in trying to draw the UK into their contractual dispute with AZ via Article 16 and accusations of vaccine nationalism) really seem to outweigh any potential benefits. Bluster and sabre rattling can have a purpose, but that was already going on, why escalate it further?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,142
    alex_ said:

    O/T - anyone know why Spain haven't released any numbers for 3 days now? Are they struggling for new ideas in manipulating their numbers downwards?

    Seems to have been relatively common for them to do several days worth in a go, particularly in not reporting over the weekend I think.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,086
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    This supports Max's thesis that this is just for show. Which is better news for Britain but truly terrible news for the EU, because it is a PR calamity on stilts. It will play well with some EU citizens for about 36 hours until they realise it is meaningless posturing, then it will all go south again

    And it makes an amiable EU/UK relationship near-impossible
    Yes, I'm not making any judgements on the non-vaccine downsides becuase there's too many to go into. Specific to vaccines and our own vaccine programme I don't think this makes any difference and I'm not sure by what mechanism the EU specifically will reject AZ requests to export vaccines produced by Halix. Under their own treaties that is a national competence and the Netherlands is one of the countries that is against export bans and has made clear like Belgium that they aren't going to sacrifice their own pharma industry to bail out the EU's failings. The EU will need to agree some kind of unanimous treaty amendment to hand this power to the EU. Again, I'm sceptical that this is going to happen at the virtual summit, Belgium, Sweden and the Netherlands have got far, far too much to lose.
    I tend to agree BUT the Netherlands has form in terms of finally folding to Paris/Berlin. They hated the Covid bail-out fund but agreed in the end.

    I think they're stuck between the logic of what you say (they can see this is mad) but also the frantic panic of German and French politicians: the CDU staring at an historic meltdown, Macron terrified he might go out in the 1st round, or might even lose to Le Pen. By contrast, Rutte has scraped another term, probably, so is not afraid of his voters

    But he is afraid of Germany and France
    Rutte has just won another election, he's safe for a long time. The dynamic has changed for him and it's Merkel and Macron that are in trouble. It's not even about being a creditor nation, the EU is asking countries that have got significant international business to simply throw away billions in future investment. Nations such as the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark and other mid sized European countries that rely on being globally facing will club together and refuse, their national economic models depend on attracting global companies and investment.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 3,345
    Do PBers know IF Nigel Farage is aware of the tremendous success of the "Trumpy Bear" in the US, peddled to the MAGA hordes over US airwaves? Named in conscious imitation of the Teddy Bear, which of course in homage to the great hunter, Theodore Roosevelt, who once famously spared a little bear (after slaughtering momma, papa, siblings & other kinfolk).

    WHY cannot NF further monetize himself, by making peddling a cute, cuddly plush toy named after himself? Why not indeed?

    And IF he takes up my idea, will only cost him my standard commission of 13.6147% per diem compounded hourly.

    Perhaps the Nigel Numbat? Or maybe the Farage Ferret?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 36,437
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Other than seeking to use the EU's overstepping on Article 16 for political advantage, I am genuinely extremely surprised Boris and co have not responded in kind to the wilder comments from various EU figures, especially the ones seeking to claim the UK is pushing vaccine nationalism.

    Have they actually learned self control, or is it just that, domestically, the EU helps Boris with Brexit issues every time they rail at the UK over vaccines so the government simply cannot get angry in return?

    Bit of both, I think

    For a Brexiteering government, you could not have scripted 2021 better (in terms of politics, not the human suffering). Every Leaver argument (over sovereignty, bureaucracy, transparency) has been vindicated a thousand times over

    Tragic, but true. All Boris has to do is say nothing and look reasonable. I have a lot of Remainer friends, they are all deathly quiet, or actively angry at Brussels. Only the absolute loons are holding out
    The appalling bit about EU behaviour is that it does nothing to increase their supply of vaccines (and may actively harm it, because it means that pharmaceutical companies will avoid dependence on the EU in their supply chains), while pissing off neighbours and allies.

    It's displacement activity, so that they can pretend to themselves that they are doing something.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,142

    Shameful by Boris Johnson, betraying the armed forces and the manifesto in one swoop.

    Some manifesto commitments are more sacred than others. Which ones are sacred is a mysterious and inscrutable secret.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 36,437
    alex_ said:

    O/T - anyone know why Spain haven't released any numbers for 3 days now? Are they struggling for new ideas in manipulating their numbers downwards?

    Spain has been a bit erratic at releasing figures throughout the pandemic. They've also revised statistics a bunch of times.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 83,578

    Shameful by Boris Johnson, betraying the armed forces and the manifesto in one swoop.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1373765153536278536

    For once TSE you are right.

    If this is correct it is an outrageous betrayal of our armed forces and our national security to cut them yet further in an unstable world and I know most of my fellow Tory members will be appalled too
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,142
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    This supports Max's thesis that this is just for show. Which is better news for Britain but truly terrible news for the EU, because it is a PR calamity on stilts. It will play well with some EU citizens for about 36 hours until they realise it is meaningless posturing, then it will all go south again

    And it makes an amiable EU/UK relationship near-impossible
    Yes, I'm not making any judgements on the non-vaccine downsides becuase there's too many to go into. Specific to vaccines and our own vaccine programme I don't think this makes any difference and I'm not sure by what mechanism the EU specifically will reject AZ requests to export vaccines produced by Halix. Under their own treaties that is a national competence and the Netherlands is one of the countries that is against export bans and has made clear like Belgium that they aren't going to sacrifice their own pharma industry to bail out the EU's failings. The EU will need to agree some kind of unanimous treaty amendment to hand this power to the EU. Again, I'm sceptical that this is going to happen at the virtual summit, Belgium, Sweden and the Netherlands have got far, far too much to lose.
    I tend to agree BUT the Netherlands has form in terms of finally folding to Paris/Berlin. They hated the Covid bail-out fund but agreed in the end.

    I think they're stuck between the logic of what you say (they can see this is mad) but also the frantic panic of German and French politicians: the CDU staring at an historic meltdown, Macron terrified he might go out in the 1st round, or might even lose to Le Pen. By contrast, Rutte has scraped another term, probably, so is not afraid of his voters

    But he is afraid of Germany and France
    Rutte has just won another election, he's safe for a long time. The dynamic has changed for him and it's Merkel and Macron that are in trouble. It's not even about being a creditor nation, the EU is asking countries that have got significant international business to simply throw away billions in future investment. Nations such as the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark and other mid sized European countries that rely on being globally facing will club together and refuse, their national economic models depend on attracting global companies and investment.
    Unless companies start making unequivocal statements about these actions threatening those future billions, will that get through to the leaders? Would it even then? We know for a fact that companies saying 'Don't do this, it'll cost you a lot' doesn't sway people or leaders.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,142
    HYUFD said:

    Shameful by Boris Johnson, betraying the armed forces and the manifesto in one swoop.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1373765153536278536

    For once TSE you are right.

    If this is correct it is an outrageous betrayal of our armed forces and our national security to cut them yet further in an unstable world and I know most of my fellow Tory members will be appalled too
    Not a comment for people to dismiss lightly, given your loyal efforts in general.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 36,860
    If you look back at the negotiations on the trade deal, the EU was trying to use the same tactics as with financial services to force the relocation of pharma business. Stories like this have a different complexion now.
    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1282111081146650624
  • LeonLeon Posts: 4,727
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Other than seeking to use the EU's overstepping on Article 16 for political advantage, I am genuinely extremely surprised Boris and co have not responded in kind to the wilder comments from various EU figures, especially the ones seeking to claim the UK is pushing vaccine nationalism.

    Have they actually learned self control, or is it just that, domestically, the EU helps Boris with Brexit issues every time they rail at the UK over vaccines so the government simply cannot get angry in return?

    Bit of both, I think

    For a Brexiteering government, you could not have scripted 2021 better (in terms of politics, not the human suffering). Every Leaver argument (over sovereignty, bureaucracy, transparency) has been vindicated a thousand times over

    Tragic, but true. All Boris has to do is say nothing and look reasonable. I have a lot of Remainer friends, they are all deathly quiet, or actively angry at Brussels. Only the absolute loons are holding out
    The appalling bit about EU behaviour is that it does nothing to increase their supply of vaccines (and may actively harm it, because it means that pharmaceutical companies will avoid dependence on the EU in their supply chains), while pissing off neighbours and allies.

    It's displacement activity, so that they can pretend to themselves that they are doing something.
    I sometimes wonder if Putin has successfully placed his agents in exalted roles in all the chancelleries of Europe. Probably in Whitehall, as well, to be fair

    How else do you explain the behaviour of, say, Jens Spahn, the German Health Minister? Leaking the 8% AZ lie, then banning AZ, now ordering Sputnik....

    I am almost serious
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 36,437
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    This supports Max's thesis that this is just for show. Which is better news for Britain but truly terrible news for the EU, because it is a PR calamity on stilts. It will play well with some EU citizens for about 36 hours until they realise it is meaningless posturing, then it will all go south again

    And it makes an amiable EU/UK relationship near-impossible
    Yes, I'm not making any judgements on the non-vaccine downsides becuase there's too many to go into. Specific to vaccines and our own vaccine programme I don't think this makes any difference and I'm not sure by what mechanism the EU specifically will reject AZ requests to export vaccines produced by Halix. Under their own treaties that is a national competence and the Netherlands is one of the countries that is against export bans and has made clear like Belgium that they aren't going to sacrifice their own pharma industry to bail out the EU's failings. The EU will need to agree some kind of unanimous treaty amendment to hand this power to the EU. Again, I'm sceptical that this is going to happen at the virtual summit, Belgium, Sweden and the Netherlands have got far, far too much to lose.
    The EU itself could earn the title of being the sick man of Europe if they go on like this.
    I just think it's all a bit mental. The solution in January was "how much money and who wants it" to every single pharma company in the world to help increase AZ, Pfizer and Moderna supplies. There seemed to be some positive moves for Pfizer but the amount of money was tiny and delivery schedules far too long.
    Yes.

    If they'd done that they could have had massive supplies coming on sooner rather than later.

    I wonder if the big CureVac* order is part of the problem, with a desire to have an EU solution to CV19.

    * I hear CureVac is efficacious but with a lot of adverse reactions - it will be interesting if they can sell it to a vaccine sceptical public.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,142
    Nigelb said:

    Nice of you to give Farage a plug.

    I thought Leon hands out the plugs round here.
    Sells, not hands out, otherwise he'd really be buggered.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,086
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Other than seeking to use the EU's overstepping on Article 16 for political advantage, I am genuinely extremely surprised Boris and co have not responded in kind to the wilder comments from various EU figures, especially the ones seeking to claim the UK is pushing vaccine nationalism.

    Have they actually learned self control, or is it just that, domestically, the EU helps Boris with Brexit issues every time they rail at the UK over vaccines so the government simply cannot get angry in return?

    Bit of both, I think

    For a Brexiteering government, you could not have scripted 2021 better (in terms of politics, not the human suffering). Every Leaver argument (over sovereignty, bureaucracy, transparency) has been vindicated a thousand times over

    Tragic, but true. All Boris has to do is say nothing and look reasonable. I have a lot of Remainer friends, they are all deathly quiet, or actively angry at Brussels. Only the absolute loons are holding out
    The appalling bit about EU behaviour is that it does nothing to increase their supply of vaccines (and may actively harm it, because it means that pharmaceutical companies will avoid dependence on the EU in their supply chains), while pissing off neighbours and allies.

    It's displacement activity, so that they can pretend to themselves that they are doing something.
    Yes, this is the most stupid part. There's no upside for the EU here at all. Even if they blocked the purported 5 or 10 million Halix doses that the UK has theoretically requested it doesn't make them EU doses. They'd need to actually expropriate them which is another step towards becoming a South American kleptostate.

    The whole thing is a disaster that could have been fixed with €10-12bn in January for manufacturing subsidies.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 13,012

    Our EU friends have lost their minds. Either it's just inane, Boris-style bluster, in which case they are trashing their credibility for no purpose, or they are serious, in which case it's a massive exercise in self-harm. Either way it's all downside and no upside.

    With friends like this....who needs enemies.
    Let us be very clear - if they do this they are not friends any longer
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,142
    edited March 21
    alex_ said:

    I'm wondering if this whole current issue is a manufactured stunt by the EU. Apparently the EU contract requires AZ to manufacture vaccines in advance, so that when they get formal approval they can ship immediately. So is this what is going on at Halix? AZ have been manufacturing vaccine there in advance of formal approval of the site for vaccine production. That approval is set to be achieved on Thursday.

    Coincidentally the EU meeting on vaccines is on Thursday. So on Thursday maybe the EU are going to announce that they "insist" that all vaccine supplies held at Halix are distributed to the EU. AZ will oblige, by doing nothing more than fulfilling a contractual obligation. The EU will claim they've faced them down (and imply that they've redirected vaccine previously destined for the UK). But it will all be smoke and mirrors, and strangely won't impact on the UK rollout at all.

    Sounds plausible. Like last time when they demanded loads more vaccines and AZ rustled up a very few more, giving the EU a 'win'. Allows them to magnanimously stand down from threatened action and proclaim their principled but tough stand on AZ bore fruit, showing the importance of adhering to contracts and, to their intended audience, holding the moral high ground still.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 36,437

    fpt

    I've just been reading Francis Fukuyama's wrongly maligned The End Of History And The Last Man. The final 'Last Man' section asks how satisfied we will actually all be with secure liberal democracy. On the uprisings of 1968 I quote:

    'Those students who temporarily took over Paris and brought down General de Gaulle had no rational reason to rebel, as they were for the most part pampered offspring of one of the freest and most prosperous societies on earth. But it was precisely the absence of struggle and sacrifice in their middle class lives that led them to take to the streets and take on the police. While many of them were infatuated with unworkable fragments of ideas about Maoism, they had no particularly coherent vision of a better society. The substance of their protest however was a matter of indifference; what they rejected was life in a society in which ideals had somehow become impossible.'

    That's a great quote.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 53,035
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Other than seeking to use the EU's overstepping on Article 16 for political advantage, I am genuinely extremely surprised Boris and co have not responded in kind to the wilder comments from various EU figures, especially the ones seeking to claim the UK is pushing vaccine nationalism.

    Have they actually learned self control, or is it just that, domestically, the EU helps Boris with Brexit issues every time they rail at the UK over vaccines so the government simply cannot get angry in return?

    Bit of both, I think

    For a Brexiteering government, you could not have scripted 2021 better (in terms of politics, not the human suffering). Every Leaver argument (over sovereignty, bureaucracy, transparency) has been vindicated a thousand times over

    Tragic, but true. All Boris has to do is say nothing and look reasonable. I have a lot of Remainer friends, they are all deathly quiet, or actively angry at Brussels. Only the absolute loons are holding out
    The appalling bit about EU behaviour is that it does nothing to increase their supply of vaccines (and may actively harm it, because it means that pharmaceutical companies will avoid dependence on the EU in their supply chains), while pissing off neighbours and allies.

    It's displacement activity, so that they can pretend to themselves that they are doing something.
    Yes, this is the most stupid part. There's no upside for the EU here at all. Even if they blocked the purported 5 or 10 million Halix doses that the UK has theoretically requested it doesn't make them EU doses. They'd need to actually expropriate them which is another step towards becoming a South American kleptostate.

    The whole thing is a disaster that could have been fixed with €10-12bn in January for manufacturing subsidies.
    Good point. If they ban the export they will just be sitting in storage.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 36,437
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    This supports Max's thesis that this is just for show. Which is better news for Britain but truly terrible news for the EU, because it is a PR calamity on stilts. It will play well with some EU citizens for about 36 hours until they realise it is meaningless posturing, then it will all go south again

    And it makes an amiable EU/UK relationship near-impossible
    Yes, I'm not making any judgements on the non-vaccine downsides becuase there's too many to go into. Specific to vaccines and our own vaccine programme I don't think this makes any difference and I'm not sure by what mechanism the EU specifically will reject AZ requests to export vaccines produced by Halix. Under their own treaties that is a national competence and the Netherlands is one of the countries that is against export bans and has made clear like Belgium that they aren't going to sacrifice their own pharma industry to bail out the EU's failings. The EU will need to agree some kind of unanimous treaty amendment to hand this power to the EU. Again, I'm sceptical that this is going to happen at the virtual summit, Belgium, Sweden and the Netherlands have got far, far too much to lose.
    (And Ireland for pharma generally.)

    You'd also think that Spain will have had to have given assurances to Moderna, otherwise there is no chance that they will do fill there.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 13,012
    kle4 said:

    alex_ said:

    I'm wondering if this whole current issue is a manufactured stunt by the EU. Apparently the EU contract requires AZ to manufacture vaccines in advance, so that when they get formal approval they can ship immediately. So is this what is going on at Halix? AZ have been manufacturing vaccine there in advance of formal approval of the site for vaccine production. That approval is set to be achieved on Thursday.

    Coincidentally the EU meeting on vaccines is on Thursday. So on Thursday maybe the EU are going to announce that they "insist" that all vaccine supplies held at Halix are distributed to the EU. AZ will oblige, by doing nothing more than fulfilling a contractual obligation. The EU will claim they've faced them down (and imply that they've redirected vaccine previously destined for the UK). But it will all be smoke and mirrors, and strangely won't impact on the UK rollout at all.

    Sounds plausible. Like last time when they demanded loads more vaccines and AZ rustled up a very few more, giving the EU a 'win'.
    Which the EU just put in a cupboard somewhere.......
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 5,008
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    This supports Max's thesis that this is just for show. Which is better news for Britain but truly terrible news for the EU, because it is a PR calamity on stilts. It will play well with some EU citizens for about 36 hours until they realise it is meaningless posturing, then it will all go south again

    And it makes an amiable EU/UK relationship near-impossible
    Yes, I'm not making any judgements on the non-vaccine downsides becuase there's too many to go into. Specific to vaccines and our own vaccine programme I don't think this makes any difference and I'm not sure by what mechanism the EU specifically will reject AZ requests to export vaccines produced by Halix. Under their own treaties that is a national competence and the Netherlands is one of the countries that is against export bans and has made clear like Belgium that they aren't going to sacrifice their own pharma industry to bail out the EU's failings. The EU will need to agree some kind of unanimous treaty amendment to hand this power to the EU. Again, I'm sceptical that this is going to happen at the virtual summit, Belgium, Sweden and the Netherlands have got far, far too much to lose.
    The EU itself could earn the title of being the sick man of Europe if they go on like this.
    I just think it's all a bit mental. The solution in January was "how much money and who wants it" to every single pharma company in the world to help increase AZ, Pfizer and Moderna supplies. There seemed to be some positive moves for Pfizer but the amount of money was tiny and delivery schedules far too long.
    Yes.

    If they'd done that they could have had massive supplies coming on sooner rather than later.

    I wonder if the big CureVac* order is part of the problem, with a desire to have an EU solution to CV19.

    * I hear CureVac is efficacious but with a lot of adverse reactions - it will be interesting if they can sell it to a vaccine sceptical public.
    Since this whole vaccine mess started, the EU have given the impression of being more interested in ways to leverage an increase in vaccines over the following few weeks, rather than invest in a massive uplift and guarantee in vaccines coming on line in a month or so. Despite the latter being the realistically achievable solution and still with massive benefits. By constantly focussing on today, they are ensuring that tomorrow never comes.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,086
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    This supports Max's thesis that this is just for show. Which is better news for Britain but truly terrible news for the EU, because it is a PR calamity on stilts. It will play well with some EU citizens for about 36 hours until they realise it is meaningless posturing, then it will all go south again

    And it makes an amiable EU/UK relationship near-impossible
    Yes, I'm not making any judgements on the non-vaccine downsides becuase there's too many to go into. Specific to vaccines and our own vaccine programme I don't think this makes any difference and I'm not sure by what mechanism the EU specifically will reject AZ requests to export vaccines produced by Halix. Under their own treaties that is a national competence and the Netherlands is one of the countries that is against export bans and has made clear like Belgium that they aren't going to sacrifice their own pharma industry to bail out the EU's failings. The EU will need to agree some kind of unanimous treaty amendment to hand this power to the EU. Again, I'm sceptical that this is going to happen at the virtual summit, Belgium, Sweden and the Netherlands have got far, far too much to lose.
    The EU itself could earn the title of being the sick man of Europe if they go on like this.
    I just think it's all a bit mental. The solution in January was "how much money and who wants it" to every single pharma company in the world to help increase AZ, Pfizer and Moderna supplies. There seemed to be some positive moves for Pfizer but the amount of money was tiny and delivery schedules far too long.
    Yes.

    If they'd done that they could have had massive supplies coming on sooner rather than later.

    I wonder if the big CureVac* order is part of the problem, with a desire to have an EU solution to CV19.

    * I hear CureVac is efficacious but with a lot of adverse reactions - it will be interesting if they can sell it to a vaccine sceptical public.
    Yes, the CureVac and Sanofi orders are definitely the main problems with the EU scheme IMO, and an over reliance on AZ from approved vaccines because it's cheap and brings down the average portfolio price. I'm also told that the Sanofi and CureVac doses were purchased at a much lower cost than Pfizer and Moderna.

    The obsession in the commission around cost saving has been a real disaster.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 36,437
    It's incredible to think that the UK will soon pass Israel (perhaps Tuesday or Wednesday) for number of people having had at least one dose.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,086

    If you look back at the negotiations on the trade deal, the EU was trying to use the same tactics as with financial services to force the relocation of pharma business. Stories like this have a different complexion now.
    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1282111081146650624

    As that Australian guy put it, they create all these economically unsound regulations and then export their uncompetitiveness to the rest of the world.

    I've never been in favour of no deal, I'm now starting to see the attraction of just dropping the EU trade deal completely in 5 years and giving our 1 year of notice unless the EU agrees to wide ranging mutual recognition within the treaty rather than these tight band equivalence or uncompetitive unilateral alignment.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 14,599

    Shameful by Boris Johnson, betraying the armed forces and the manifesto in one swoop.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1373765153536278536

    I agree.

    Adding totally useless nukes, taking away actually useful soldiers, is indefensible, should be overturned, and should be used as a stick to beat Johnson and anyone who defends to that decision with.

    Can nukes help with our vaccine rollout? Thought not.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 1,034
    RobD said:

    Leon said:
    So what they can't get in honest negotiation, they steal?

    And the argument that AZN hasn't fulfilled its obligation to the EU is complete bollocks. They've also not met their obligation to the UK.
    (Aside from bluest blues sense of humour that is always very good) I am starting to doubt PB as a reliable source of good nature and knowledge. I am starting to sense you don’t really want the EU’s political difficulties go away, least of all actually help them out of a political jam? Because there is nothing much being posted here that is going to help them.

    The root cause of EU irrational behaviour is the pressure being put on both heads of state and commission, by media and public, due to performance on this issue by those heads of state and commission. The problem here on PB is you respond in terms of law, this is example of crap contract, this example of water tight contract, and this means IPR resides here, not there. And with science, where you can cancel a moonshot because it’s better to have no answer rather than go with a wrong answer. But in politics you can’t. It’s about saying you have answers and taking action. In politics you can’t even say “no, we made no plans for early election” when you plainly did.

    So we come to the clear difference between many of you posting here and me. I would like to see the problems on the continent causing the pressure on the commission and heads of state go away, and I am beginning to doubt now if so many of you think like me. For lesson from the Bible influence comes from friendship, you help others to receive help yourselves. but rather like the front of tomorrow’s Metro and Daily Express, you don’t appreciate finding solution to their political difficulty and helping with it as in any way important to us here? Like, our end of the boat is dry and out the water, their end is taking in water and going down, but that’s not our problem. But we are sharing the same boat?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 14,112
    I hope the Government is moving heaven and earth to come up with viable contingency plans. A 2 month delay to our vaccine roll out cannot happen.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,086
    alex_ said:

    I'm wondering if this whole current issue is a manufactured stunt by the EU. Apparently the EU contract requires AZ to manufacture vaccines in advance, so that when they get formal approval they can ship immediately. So is this what is going on at Halix? AZ have been manufacturing vaccine there in advance of formal approval of the site for vaccine production. That approval is set to be achieved on Thursday.

    Coincidentally the EU meeting on vaccines is on Thursday. So on Thursday maybe the EU are going to announce that they "insist" that all vaccine supplies held at Halix are distributed to the EU. AZ will oblige, by doing nothing more than fulfilling a contractual obligation. The EU will claim they've faced them down (and imply that they've redirected vaccine previously destined for the UK). But it will all be smoke and mirrors, and strangely won't impact on the UK rollout at all.

    It's definitely something I could see being calculated as how they can "win" over the UK in the very short term. But it's still not going to make a huge difference.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 4,727
    alex_ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    This supports Max's thesis that this is just for show. Which is better news for Britain but truly terrible news for the EU, because it is a PR calamity on stilts. It will play well with some EU citizens for about 36 hours until they realise it is meaningless posturing, then it will all go south again

    And it makes an amiable EU/UK relationship near-impossible
    Yes, I'm not making any judgements on the non-vaccine downsides becuase there's too many to go into. Specific to vaccines and our own vaccine programme I don't think this makes any difference and I'm not sure by what mechanism the EU specifically will reject AZ requests to export vaccines produced by Halix. Under their own treaties that is a national competence and the Netherlands is one of the countries that is against export bans and has made clear like Belgium that they aren't going to sacrifice their own pharma industry to bail out the EU's failings. The EU will need to agree some kind of unanimous treaty amendment to hand this power to the EU. Again, I'm sceptical that this is going to happen at the virtual summit, Belgium, Sweden and the Netherlands have got far, far too much to lose.
    The EU itself could earn the title of being the sick man of Europe if they go on like this.
    I just think it's all a bit mental. The solution in January was "how much money and who wants it" to every single pharma company in the world to help increase AZ, Pfizer and Moderna supplies. There seemed to be some positive moves for Pfizer but the amount of money was tiny and delivery schedules far too long.
    Yes.

    If they'd done that they could have had massive supplies coming on sooner rather than later.

    I wonder if the big CureVac* order is part of the problem, with a desire to have an EU solution to CV19.

    * I hear CureVac is efficacious but with a lot of adverse reactions - it will be interesting if they can sell it to a vaccine sceptical public.
    Since this whole vaccine mess started, the EU have given the impression of being more interested in ways to leverage an increase in vaccines over the following few weeks, rather than invest in a massive uplift and guarantee in vaccines coming on line in a month or so. Despite the latter being the realistically achievable solution and still with massive benefits. By constantly focussing on today, they are ensuring that tomorrow never comes.
    Same with their PR. They have consistently gone for the immediate headline rather than thinking at least 48 hours ahead.

    eg Imposing a new hard frontier in Ireland probably *sounded* great in Brussels over a glass of dark monkish ale - tough, firm, rigorous - but if they'd talked to someone sane and mapped it out over the next day or two, they'd have realised it was barmy, if not dangerous.

    They need to clear our the entire Commission, all of them. They have competent people, Barnier for instance. But the obsession with elevating mediocrities that can't menace the national leaders is killing them.

    OK, night night, PB, night night
  • RobDRobD Posts: 53,035
    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:
    So what they can't get in honest negotiation, they steal?

    And the argument that AZN hasn't fulfilled its obligation to the EU is complete bollocks. They've also not met their obligation to the UK.
    (Aside from bluest blues sense of humour that is always very good) I am starting to doubt PB as a reliable source of good nature and knowledge. I am starting to sense you don’t really want the EU’s political difficulties go away, least of all actually help them out of a political jam? Because there is nothing much being posted here that is going to help them.

    The root cause of EU irrational behaviour is the pressure being put on both heads of state and commission, by media and public, due to performance on this issue by those heads of state and commission. The problem here on PB is you respond in terms of law, this is example of crap contract, this example of water tight contract, and this means IPR resides here, not there. And with science, where you can cancel a moonshot because it’s better to have no answer rather than go with a wrong answer. But in politics you can’t. It’s about saying you have answers and taking action. In politics you can’t even say “no, we made no plans for early election” when you plainly did.

    So we come to the clear difference between many of you posting here and me. I would like to see the problems on the continent causing the pressure on the commission and heads of state go away, and I am beginning to doubt now if so many of you think like me. For lesson from the Bible influence comes from friendship, you help others to receive help yourselves. but rather like the front of tomorrow’s Metro and Daily Express, you don’t appreciate finding solution to their political difficulty and helping with it as in any way important to us here? Like, our end of the boat is dry and out the water, their end is taking in water and going down, but that’s not our problem. But we are sharing the same boat?
    If the way by which they make those difficulties go away is by snatching UK vaccines, then yes, I hope they never end. They need to grow up and actually think of constructive measures to get out of the complete mess they've landed themselves in.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,086

    I hope the Government is moving heaven and earth to come up with viable contingency plans. A 2 month delay to our vaccine roll out cannot happen.

    As I said on the previous thread, I imagine there are loads of calls being made to Washington right now about it to ensure continuous supply for the UK from there by Pfizer while the UK helps Pfizer US ramp up its manufacturing capacity with the Croda lipid nanoparticles being redirected to Pfizer US.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 14,599
    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:
    So what they can't get in honest negotiation, they steal?

    And the argument that AZN hasn't fulfilled its obligation to the EU is complete bollocks. They've also not met their obligation to the UK.
    (Aside from bluest blues sense of humour that is always very good) I am starting to doubt PB as a reliable source of good nature and knowledge. I am starting to sense you don’t really want the EU’s political difficulties go away, least of all actually help them out of a political jam? Because there is nothing much being posted here that is going to help them.

    The root cause of EU irrational behaviour is the pressure being put on both heads of state and commission, by media and public, due to performance on this issue by those heads of state and commission. The problem here on PB is you respond in terms of law, this is example of crap contract, this example of water tight contract, and this means IPR resides here, not there. And with science, where you can cancel a moonshot because it’s better to have no answer rather than go with a wrong answer. But in politics you can’t. It’s about saying you have answers and taking action. In politics you can’t even say “no, we made no plans for early election” when you plainly did.

    So we come to the clear difference between many of you posting here and me. I would like to see the problems on the continent causing the pressure on the commission and heads of state go away, and I am beginning to doubt now if so many of you think like me. For lesson from the Bible influence comes from friendship, you help others to receive help yourselves. but rather like the front of tomorrow’s Metro and Daily Express, you don’t appreciate finding solution to their political difficulty and helping with it as in any way important to us here? Like, our end of the boat is dry and out the water, their end is taking in water and going down, but that’s not our problem. But we are sharing the same boat?
    Don't you find it stimulating and useful to discuss things with people who think about things differently to you? I do.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,086
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    This supports Max's thesis that this is just for show. Which is better news for Britain but truly terrible news for the EU, because it is a PR calamity on stilts. It will play well with some EU citizens for about 36 hours until they realise it is meaningless posturing, then it will all go south again

    And it makes an amiable EU/UK relationship near-impossible
    Yes, I'm not making any judgements on the non-vaccine downsides becuase there's too many to go into. Specific to vaccines and our own vaccine programme I don't think this makes any difference and I'm not sure by what mechanism the EU specifically will reject AZ requests to export vaccines produced by Halix. Under their own treaties that is a national competence and the Netherlands is one of the countries that is against export bans and has made clear like Belgium that they aren't going to sacrifice their own pharma industry to bail out the EU's failings. The EU will need to agree some kind of unanimous treaty amendment to hand this power to the EU. Again, I'm sceptical that this is going to happen at the virtual summit, Belgium, Sweden and the Netherlands have got far, far too much to lose.
    (And Ireland for pharma generally.)

    You'd also think that Spain will have had to have given assurances to Moderna, otherwise there is no chance that they will do fill there.
    Yes, Ireland too will be pretty disagreeable with giving away this competency to the EU. I'm not sure about Spain, they seem to have a bunch of chumps in charge.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,199
    edited March 21
    Floater said:

    Our EU friends have lost their minds. Either it's just inane, Boris-style bluster, in which case they are trashing their credibility for no purpose, or they are serious, in which case it's a massive exercise in self-harm. Either way it's all downside and no upside.

    With friends like this....who needs enemies.
    Let us be very clear - if they do this they are not friends any longer
    Just threatening to do this....I am not sure I would expect my mates to do it, especially not ones that keep trying to tell me they are still bezzie mates despite a recent falling out.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,385
    rcs1000 said:

    It's incredible to think that the UK will soon pass Israel (perhaps Tuesday or Wednesday) for number of people having had at least one dose.

    All down to the decision to go with a first jab first policy in the UK. That's the biggest reason we psychologically feel we are so far ahead of the EU as well I would guess. It still seems remarkable that no other country has had the guts to go with a 12 week dosing gap.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,458
    If the recent events don’t push the Brexit yougov tracker into ‘right to leave’ territory it does make you wonder if half the country are irreversibly stubborn fools who’s only source of news is The Guardian and Twitter. Although in fairness now even the Guardian are leading with the EU vaccine blockade. The FBPE lot must be privately thinking about that classic Mitchell and Webb meme “Are we the baddies?”.

    Surely in the end diplomacy will resolve this before lives get lost and things become more ridiculous. The thrashing around by Von der Leyen and co is rapidly diminishing the global status of Europe to somewhere between Myanmar and Venezuala.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 53,035
    JonathanD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It's incredible to think that the UK will soon pass Israel (perhaps Tuesday or Wednesday) for number of people having had at least one dose.

    All down to the decision to go with a first jab first policy in the UK. That's the biggest reason we psychologically feel we are so far ahead of the EU as well I would guess. It still seems remarkable that no other country has had the guts to go with a 12 week dosing gap.
    Well they should with AZN, as that's the recommended gap!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 64,142
    JonathanD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It's incredible to think that the UK will soon pass Israel (perhaps Tuesday or Wednesday) for number of people having had at least one dose.

    All down to the decision to go with a first jab first policy in the UK. That's the biggest reason we psychologically feel we are so far ahead of the EU as well I would guess. It still seems remarkable that no other country has had the guts to go with a 12 week dosing gap.
    I guess since we started out mass rollout in mid Jan they are still waiting on precise data about the impact on the Pfizer delayed approach? But it did seem one of those gambles that was worth the risks particularly given our own position in January, and with some other places surging again, if not quite that much, seems like more would have followed suit. I think some places have spaced them out, but not by as much?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 19,528
    rcs1000 said:

    It's incredible to think that the UK will soon pass Israel (perhaps Tuesday or Wednesday) for number of people having had at least one dose.
    Is that total population or adult population ?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 14,112
    Brom said:

    If the recent events don’t push the Brexit yougov tracker into ‘right to leave’ territory it does make you wonder if half the country are irreversibly stubborn fools who’s only source of news is The Guardian and Twitter. Although in fairness now even the Guardian are leading with the EU vaccine blockade. The FBPE lot must be privately thinking about that classic Mitchell and Webb meme “Are we the baddies?”.

    Surely in the end diplomacy will resolve this before lives get lost and things become more ridiculous. The thrashing around by Von der Leyen and co is rapidly diminishing the global status of Europe to somewhere between Myanmar and Venezuala.

    Eh?

    I don't think we were "right to leave" but I'm certainly not happy with how the EU are acting and I'm certainly not angling to rejoin any time soon.

    There's a difference.

    You don't have to turn everything into a Remain vs Leave thing ffs.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 19,528
    English suburbia looks very pretty in late March with the blossom and bulbs in flower.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 16,321
    Floater said:

    Our EU friends have lost their minds. Either it's just inane, Boris-style bluster, in which case they are trashing their credibility for no purpose, or they are serious, in which case it's a massive exercise in self-harm. Either way it's all downside and no upside.

    With friends like this....who needs enemies.
    Let us be very clear - if they do this they are not friends any longer
    We could unfriend them on Facebook.

    That will show em

    FFS what has happened to posters today.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 2,273
    gealbhan said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:
    So what they can't get in honest negotiation, they steal?

    And the argument that AZN hasn't fulfilled its obligation to the EU is complete bollocks. They've also not met their obligation to the UK.
    (Aside from bluest blues sense of humour that is always very good) I am starting to doubt PB as a reliable source of good nature and knowledge. I am starting to sense you don’t really want the EU’s political difficulties go away, least of all actually help them out of a political jam? Because there is nothing much being posted here that is going to help them.

    The root cause of EU irrational behaviour is the pressure being put on both heads of state and commission, by media and public, due to performance on this issue by those heads of state and commission. The problem here on PB is you respond in terms of law, this is example of crap contract, this example of water tight contract, and this means IPR resides here, not there. And with science, where you can cancel a moonshot because it’s better to have no answer rather than go with a wrong answer. But in politics you can’t. It’s about saying you have answers and taking action. In politics you can’t even say “no, we made no plans for early election” when you plainly did.

    So we come to the clear difference between many of you posting here and me. I would like to see the problems on the continent causing the pressure on the commission and heads of state go away, and I am beginning to doubt now if so many of you think like me. For lesson from the Bible influence comes from friendship, you help others to receive help yourselves. but rather like the front of tomorrow’s Metro and Daily Express, you don’t appreciate finding solution to their political difficulty and helping with it as in any way important to us here? Like, our end of the boat is dry and out the water, their end is taking in water and going down, but that’s not our problem. But we are sharing the same boat?
    Isn't the Bible full of rules you are meant to stick to?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 36,437
    This is very good: https://xkcd.com/2439/
  • RobDRobD Posts: 53,035

    Floater said:

    Our EU friends have lost their minds. Either it's just inane, Boris-style bluster, in which case they are trashing their credibility for no purpose, or they are serious, in which case it's a massive exercise in self-harm. Either way it's all downside and no upside.

    With friends like this....who needs enemies.
    Let us be very clear - if they do this they are not friends any longer
    We could unfriend them on Facebook.

    That will show em

    FFS what has happened to posters today.
    You think that effectively stealing vaccines from the UK is okay?
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