Mr. kinabalu, men are a majority of violent crime victims.
One problem with the blanket approach of 'men need to change' is that it's happy to acknowledge the fact that perpetrators of violent crimes (including rape) are likely to be men but there's scant regard given to the fact men are likelier to be victims of (non-sexual) violent crime.
Most people are happy to consider men potential criminals but more reluctant to see them as potential victims (this isn't as bad as it was, but used to be atrocious with regards to domestic abuse).
I looked at the London murder map this morning. 22 people have been murdered in London so far this year. 19 of the 22 were men. 2/3rds are under 40. I suspect there will be very few calls from politicians for any action about those murders. It's one of the saddest things about violent crime that we have essentially adopted a hierarchy of victimhood, and those most likely to be victims are the least valued by society. Frankly an awful lot of people will say that some of those murdered "got what they deserve". I don't have any solution, but I do wonder how much this attitude prevents tackling violent crime and making us all safer.
We don't know the details of the Everard case - how the police officer allegedly abducted her. It doesn't sound like it is a "normal" abduction / rape / murder case because of this added factor.
I fear that this will allow some men to dismiss it as a one-off. The method of the abduction / rape / murder may be a little unusual but the predilection of a small number of men to prey on women for the purposes of abduction / rape / murder is not.
What can I as a man with a wife and a daughter do about it? I can Speak Out. Nobody is saying "all men are rapists" because we aren't. But go and ask the women in your lives today if they have experienced fear when alone that the man following them, or the figure in the shadows, or the guys "having fun" by staring or making suggesting comments may be the one who preys on them. ALL the women I know have had this. All of them.
So yes, the onus is on the majority of men to stand up for and speak out for the women in their lives. So that the "its just a bit of fun" catcallers and starers and lewd comment minority stop. So that the tiny tiny minority of lunatics who want to abduct / rape / murder for sport have nowhere to hide.
I think the behaviour that you describe is bad in its own right.
The idea that it has anything to do with psychopathic rapists, though, is utterly absurd.
A counter-argument:
When Jo Cox was murdered by Thomas Mair in the run up to the Brexit vote, do you think his choice of victim was made at random? Of course not: he had been surrounded by increasingly vicious rhetoric that painted Remain MPs as traitors & fifth columnists. Those who spent their time online thundering on about traitorous Remainers clearly had no intention of inciting murder, yet when those words fell on susceptible ears we all know the result.
In a similar fashion, as RochdaleP says: the the "its just a bit of fun" catcallers and starers and lewd comment minority provide cover for those who are at risk of being tipped over the edge onto outright violence towards women. When those individuals find themselves surrounded by men who do those things, the message they hear repeated over and over again is that women are things, objects to be exploited. This is why it’s everybody’s responsibility to push back on that kind behaviour - not just because it’s unpleasant for the targets in and of itself, but also because it is the misogynist swamp in which the violent sociopaths swim - it’s the environment that tells them that their behaviour is OK, even approved of.
Drain the swamp.
No, I don't think Jo Cox was killed at random. She was assassinated. And you may have a point about the circumstances in which it happened.
We don't know the details of what's gone on in the current case, but it's possible (likely?) that this young woman was in the wrong place at the wrong time (though the killer may have identified her as a target before the night in question).
What makes some men behave like this? I don't know, but I'm not sure attributing it to catcalling is particularly helpful.
This man was a 49 year old officer in the MET. During his career, he will have been bathed and basted in PC ideology, and will be highly fluent in woke. The suggestion that in order not to go around abducting people the rest of society needs the same is inapposite to say the least.
You are both (wilfully?) misunderstanding the point I was making.
Nobody is attributing a murder directly to catcalling. What I (and others) are saying is that the smorgasbord of misogynistic behaviours that many men indulge in is creating the psychological space for some men to think that their more extreme behaviour towards women is OK, even approved of by other men. After all, the thinking goes, if they didn’t approve of it, why didn’t they say anything when I said those things about women down the pub?
Is it really "woke" to suggest that the endless low-grade sexual harrassment of women out on the street needs to stop? I don’t think it’s woke: I think it’s basic common decency. Something that, regardless of our political stance, we surely ought to be able to agree on.
What you are referring to isn't "woke" it is "sexism".
Sexism needs to stop. Ascribing sexism to all men is . . . sexist. Sexism belongs to the individuals who engage in it, not men.
Of course if someone is "awake" to social injustice then they should be aware of sexism.
Absolutely and they should not engage in sexism by making sweeping blanket statements about either men or women. To do so is sexist.
Something to think about: it is clearly the case that not all men are responsible for the sexual harassment that many women experience, yet for most of the women in question it is nevertheless always men doing it.
From their point of view, it looks an awful lot like men are the problem. Show a little empathy before you wade in with your "notallmen" sledgehammer?
Sorry but no. I do have empathy and I call out the sexists, but by moving away from calling out sexism and going to calling out everyone instead moves the onus away from the sexists who are the problem.
I would do the same with any group. If someone used a terrorist attack to attack all Muslims I'd view that as inappropriate - wouldn't you?
Call out sexists yes. Blame groups for the actions of individuals? No that is "-ism" and "-ism" is wrong.
I agree - the problem is that far too many men do not call out sexists or misogynists.
And do you think law-abiding Muslims do enough to counter Islamic terrorism?
Possibly the most absurd piece of whataboutery I have ever read.
No, it is about consistency.
Blaming law abiding Muslims for Islamic terrorism is racism. Blaming law abiding men for lone murderers is sexism.
Its worth noting the other person arrested in this case is a woman anyway. One man and one woman have been arrested. But yes, its all men's fault. 🙄
There's a woman on the TV now advising people to get to know their local Police Officer. I don't think I've seen a policeman, certainly on foot, round here for several years. They come when the ATM's stolen, that's about it.
I never see Police on foot outside of city centres.
I see police officers on foot in towns, not in the centre. They just fade into the background though.
Not in a city centre, I was in a very minor car accident a few years ago where a vehicle hit me from behind, coincidentally right next to a lone police officer walking on foot. He heard the collision and just calmly sauntered over to us and checked we both had insurance etc and that we exchanged details.
The damage was so minor we chose to settle it away from the insurance company anyway but it was odd to have a police officer walking right next us at the time it happened.
Odd? I would have said the chances were lower than the LibDems forming the next government.
Why are the media allowed to release the name and photo of a man who hasn't even been found guilty yet? I am astonished this is allowed in these cases.
In other news Tesla seem worried about being left behind in the UK market. I do wonder whether they regret picking Berlin now for their European site. Anyway it looks as though Tesla are scouting for land in the UK for an even larger gigafactory than what is under construction in Berlin. It's a shame we're two years late to the party, but it does seem as though the government is finally catching up to future needs of the UK economy, albeit a bit slowly.
I think Tesla have problems in Germany - they started building before permission was granted and it's not gone down well
was the first story google pointed me at but there will be a fair few more as I remember this from last year.
They did the same with the water rights, and that got sorted out. It's like everything else Tesla does - they take risks in order to move fast. Sometimes it doesn't work; most of the time it does.
But it's a reasonable assumption they'd have built it in the UK had we not Brexited.
From the look if it they still are planning to build in the UK, despite Brexit.
Not sure why you'd assume they'd build in the UK first had we not Brexited. Germany is the car manufacturing hub of Europe so they might rightly have assumed either way that Germany was the best place to invest in first. As it happens it looks like they're now planning to build in the UK anyway so what are you worrying about?
I thought the UK had never been a serious contender for a Tesla Gigafactory.
No he doesn't. Despite the attempted spin of a very partisan website with little more credibility than the Canary, what he actually says he never considered Britain because of Brexit and chose Germany for their own reasons.
That does not say he was considering Britain until Brexit.
Aiui, the Tesla decision on Germany was made for two reasons:
1 - To access Germany's very strong auto engineering base. 2 - So they could become a "domestic" manufacturer in the eyes of German consumers and compete with BMW/Audi/Mercedes on that basis rather than as an American company.
Basing itself in the UK was never really an option becuase of these two factors.
What has changed for the UK is that the UK is going to be the leading EV consumer market for the next decade because of the net zero pledge and government incentives for people to move to AEVs, the investment environment has changed because of the brexit deal and the proposed CPTPP deal both having rules of origin that encourage manufacturing to be based in the UK to avoid tariffs on EVs and Tesla realising that demand for their cars will be greater than supply even including what has been planned from the Berlin gigafactory so another one on Europe will be required. Building it in the UK which will benefit from a zero tariff/quota deal with the EU and a heavily reduced tariff/quota structure with most of APAC is probably a very big pull factor.
In other news Tesla seem worried about being left behind in the UK market. I do wonder whether they regret picking Berlin now for their European site. Anyway it looks as though Tesla are scouting for land in the UK for an even larger gigafactory than what is under construction in Berlin. It's a shame we're two years late to the party, but it does seem as though the government is finally catching up to future needs of the UK economy, albeit a bit slowly.
I think Tesla have problems in Germany - they started building before permission was granted and it's not gone down well
was the first story google pointed me at but there will be a fair few more as I remember this from last year.
They did the same with the water rights, and that got sorted out. It's like everything else Tesla does - they take risks in order to move fast. Sometimes it doesn't work; most of the time it does.
But it's a reasonable assumption they'd have built it in the UK had we not Brexited.
From the look if it they still are planning to build in the UK, despite Brexit.
Not sure why you'd assume they'd build in the UK first had we not Brexited. Germany is the car manufacturing hub of Europe so they might rightly have assumed either way that Germany was the best place to invest in first. As it happens it looks like they're now planning to build in the UK anyway so what are you worrying about?
I thought the UK had never been a serious contender for a Tesla Gigafactory.
"In an interview with Auto Express, Musk said he didn't consider the UK as an option for Tesla's European Gigafactory because of Brexit uncertainty."
"Musk added that his decision was influenced by Germany's strong track record on engineering."
(Though I think there's a bit of politicking in there.)
Looks like you read the Auto Express interview and got the wrong end of the stick. "Musk said he didn't consider the UK as an option for Tesla's European Gigafactory - because of Brexit uncertainty"
Don't know who the Tories could find to stand at such late notice but he needs to be withdrawn as a candidate. He's such a massive c***. Completely vindicates my decision to not vote for him and refusal of helping out the campaign. Think I might go out and campaign for the Lib Dem at this rate.
Ask Rory to come back to the Tory party?
Surely have Rory run in 2024 rather than waste his shot now.
2025 - it's not going to be a 3 year term is it.
I think as there were no elections last year due to Covid, the postponed elections that were due to be held in 2020 will still be next up in 2024.
We don't know the details of the Everard case - how the police officer allegedly abducted her. It doesn't sound like it is a "normal" abduction / rape / murder case because of this added factor.
I fear that this will allow some men to dismiss it as a one-off. The method of the abduction / rape / murder may be a little unusual but the predilection of a small number of men to prey on women for the purposes of abduction / rape / murder is not.
What can I as a man with a wife and a daughter do about it? I can Speak Out. Nobody is saying "all men are rapists" because we aren't. But go and ask the women in your lives today if they have experienced fear when alone that the man following them, or the figure in the shadows, or the guys "having fun" by staring or making suggesting comments may be the one who preys on them. ALL the women I know have had this. All of them.
So yes, the onus is on the majority of men to stand up for and speak out for the women in their lives. So that the "its just a bit of fun" catcallers and starers and lewd comment minority stop. So that the tiny tiny minority of lunatics who want to abduct / rape / murder for sport have nowhere to hide.
I think the behaviour that you describe is bad in its own right.
The idea that it has anything to do with psychopathic rapists, though, is utterly absurd.
A counter-argument:
When Jo Cox was murdered by Thomas Mair in the run up to the Brexit vote, do you think his choice of victim was made at random? Of course not: he had been surrounded by increasingly vicious rhetoric that painted Remain MPs as traitors & fifth columnists. Those who spent their time online thundering on about traitorous Remainers clearly had no intention of inciting murder, yet when those words fell on susceptible ears we all know the result.
In a similar fashion, as RochdaleP says: the the "its just a bit of fun" catcallers and starers and lewd comment minority provide cover for those who are at risk of being tipped over the edge onto outright violence towards women. When those individuals find themselves surrounded by men who do those things, the message they hear repeated over and over again is that women are things, objects to be exploited. This is why it’s everybody’s responsibility to push back on that kind behaviour - not just because it’s unpleasant for the targets in and of itself, but also because it is the misogynist swamp in which the violent sociopaths swim - it’s the environment that tells them that their behaviour is OK, even approved of.
Drain the swamp.
No, I don't think Jo Cox was killed at random. She was assassinated. And you may have a point about the circumstances in which it happened.
We don't know the details of what's gone on in the current case, but it's possible (likely?) that this young woman was in the wrong place at the wrong time (though the killer may have identified her as a target before the night in question).
What makes some men behave like this? I don't know, but I'm not sure attributing it to catcalling is particularly helpful.
This man was a 49 year old officer in the MET. During his career, he will have been bathed and basted in PC ideology, and will be highly fluent in woke. The suggestion that in order not to go around abducting people the rest of society needs the same is inapposite to say the least.
Is not objectifying women "woke"? Is not making sexual comments at women "woke"? Is not catcalling and shaming women because of how they look "woke"?
You really do say the stupidest things at times.
I am sure I do, but I don't think the above is one of them.
Faced with the actions of a very sick individual (not a medical diagnosis, just a reflection on what he's done) we already have people agitating for a broad campaign espousing (and presumably enforcing) their values - ones which they just happened to be in favour of anyway. In this context it's worth noting that anyone in the position of this police officer is at the vanguard of these values being espoused and enforced, and it doesn't seem to have made a blind bit of difference.
I did not defend or commend any of the behaviours which you list.
The "values" that we are espousing are simple. Not objectifying women. Not sexually harassing women. Not catcalling and shaming women. Why are you against this?
If you think this is a culture war issue then fine. You are defending a culture where women live in fear.
I am not 'against', and I would be grateful if you wouldn't attempt to misrepresent my views. My point is that to get from a place where you feel the situation on all these things is bad (I don't, I think we're doing OK in this area), you presumably recommend action, to curb peoples' sexist thoughts and views. It is the growth in policing of thought that any liberal should be wary of by default.
By the way, I think I read a piece recently that it's now builders up on scaffolding who feel that they're the ones being objectified, not the other way around!
Quite right too. The Protocol doesn't work and it is in our interests to make that abundantly clear and find an alternative. Simply saying the UK agreed to it is neither here nor there, the UK is under no more of an obligation to make the Protocol work than France is to work towards all the rules they flout or "interpret" in the way that suits them best.
We absolutely should "interpret" the Protocol the way we mean it, they can do the same and if we can't meet in the middle we have an impasse. But only being tough works.
Why are the media allowed to release the name and photo of a man who hasn't even been found guilty yet? I am astonished this is allowed in these cases.
There always seems significant inconsistencies in the British media about when they do and don't, it seems totally random.
In other news Tesla seem worried about being left behind in the UK market. I do wonder whether they regret picking Berlin now for their European site. Anyway it looks as though Tesla are scouting for land in the UK for an even larger gigafactory than what is under construction in Berlin. It's a shame we're two years late to the party, but it does seem as though the government is finally catching up to future needs of the UK economy, albeit a bit slowly.
I think Tesla have problems in Germany - they started building before permission was granted and it's not gone down well
was the first story google pointed me at but there will be a fair few more as I remember this from last year.
They did the same with the water rights, and that got sorted out. It's like everything else Tesla does - they take risks in order to move fast. Sometimes it doesn't work; most of the time it does.
But it's a reasonable assumption they'd have built it in the UK had we not Brexited.
From the look if it they still are planning to build in the UK, despite Brexit.
Not sure why you'd assume they'd build in the UK first had we not Brexited. Germany is the car manufacturing hub of Europe so they might rightly have assumed either way that Germany was the best place to invest in first. As it happens it looks like they're now planning to build in the UK anyway so what are you worrying about?
I thought the UK had never been a serious contender for a Tesla Gigafactory.
No he doesn't. Despite the attempted spin of a very partisan website with little more credibility than the Canary, what he actually says he never considered Britain because of Brexit and chose Germany for their own reasons.
That does not say he was considering Britain until Brexit.
Aiui, the Tesla decision on Germany was made for two reasons:
1 - To access Germany's very strong auto engineering base. 2 - So they could become a "domestic" manufacturer in the eyes of German consumers and compete with BMW/Audi/Mercedes on that basis rather than as an American company.
Basing itself in the UK was never really an option becuase of these two factors.
What has changed for the UK is that the UK is going to be the leading EV consumer market for the next decade because of the net zero pledge and government incentives for people to move to AEVs, the investment environment has changed because of the brexit deal and the proposed CPTPP deal both having rules of origin that encourage manufacturing to be based in the UK to avoid tariffs on EVs and Tesla realising that demand for their cars will be greater than supply even including what has been planned from the Berlin gigafactory so another one on Europe will be required. Building it in the UK which will benefit from a zero tariff/quota deal with the EU and a heavily reduced tariff/quota structure with most of APAC is probably a very big pull factor.
It's almost as if we are going to end up as the sweet spot location for world trade.
Is it the case that the Scottish Greens are only fielding Regional List Candidates?
Am I correct that this is what they have done before?
They've always stood in at least one constituency I think. This time round they are standing a candidate in two constituencies in the Lothian region, Edinburgh Central and Edinburgh Northern and Leith, but not the other six.
Don't know about other regions.
Patrick Harvie normally stands in Edinburgh Kelvin.
On 2 occasions male passengers asked this lady to move because she was a woman. She dug her heels in and refused. EasyJet bribed her to move (albeit with just a hot drink) and she sues them because they didn’t back her up but sought conflict resolution.
If the men were uncomfortable then EasyJet could have found somewhere for them to move to. Absolutely shouldn't be down to the woman to make way.
I agree in principle that would be better (and that’s what they did on one occasion).
On the other they asked her to move 2 rows forward and gave her a hot drink for free.
The cabin crew are in a situation where two men are being unreasonable, an ok solution is available and they compensated the woman for moving.
I’m generally of the views that a reasonable solution given the facts on the ground and the pressure they are under to hit departure times.
The problem is whether it would put the woman under pressure to comply, for fear of being identified as the unreasonable one and booted off the flight.
It wasn't her problem to fix.
IIRC it was Singapore Airlines that had a better solution. Similar circumstance - some men complaining about a woman sitting nest to them.
The Singapore Airlines crew asked if the lady would like to move. To First Class.
EasyJet first class...
Quite.
Is that like easyjet 'speedy boarding'? I once was on a flight were almost all the passengers had paid for speedy boarding (save me, tight arse that I am). If everyone is going first, no-one is... Irony for me was this - it was at Bristol airport, using buses from the terminal to the plane. You can probably guess the ending... Yep - I was last onto the bus, but first off the bus and onto the plane...
We don't know the details of the Everard case - how the police officer allegedly abducted her. It doesn't sound like it is a "normal" abduction / rape / murder case because of this added factor.
I fear that this will allow some men to dismiss it as a one-off. The method of the abduction / rape / murder may be a little unusual but the predilection of a small number of men to prey on women for the purposes of abduction / rape / murder is not.
What can I as a man with a wife and a daughter do about it? I can Speak Out. Nobody is saying "all men are rapists" because we aren't. But go and ask the women in your lives today if they have experienced fear when alone that the man following them, or the figure in the shadows, or the guys "having fun" by staring or making suggesting comments may be the one who preys on them. ALL the women I know have had this. All of them.
So yes, the onus is on the majority of men to stand up for and speak out for the women in their lives. So that the "its just a bit of fun" catcallers and starers and lewd comment minority stop. So that the tiny tiny minority of lunatics who want to abduct / rape / murder for sport have nowhere to hide.
I think the behaviour that you describe is bad in its own right.
The idea that it has anything to do with psychopathic rapists, though, is utterly absurd.
A counter-argument:
When Jo Cox was murdered by Thomas Mair in the run up to the Brexit vote, do you think his choice of victim was made at random? Of course not: he had been surrounded by increasingly vicious rhetoric that painted Remain MPs as traitors & fifth columnists. Those who spent their time online thundering on about traitorous Remainers clearly had no intention of inciting murder, yet when those words fell on susceptible ears we all know the result.
In a similar fashion, as RochdaleP says: the the "its just a bit of fun" catcallers and starers and lewd comment minority provide cover for those who are at risk of being tipped over the edge onto outright violence towards women. When those individuals find themselves surrounded by men who do those things, the message they hear repeated over and over again is that women are things, objects to be exploited. This is why it’s everybody’s responsibility to push back on that kind behaviour - not just because it’s unpleasant for the targets in and of itself, but also because it is the misogynist swamp in which the violent sociopaths swim - it’s the environment that tells them that their behaviour is OK, even approved of.
Drain the swamp.
No, I don't think Jo Cox was killed at random. She was assassinated. And you may have a point about the circumstances in which it happened.
We don't know the details of what's gone on in the current case, but it's possible (likely?) that this young woman was in the wrong place at the wrong time (though the killer may have identified her as a target before the night in question).
What makes some men behave like this? I don't know, but I'm not sure attributing it to catcalling is particularly helpful.
This man was a 49 year old officer in the MET. During his career, he will have been bathed and basted in PC ideology, and will be highly fluent in woke. The suggestion that in order not to go around abducting people the rest of society needs the same is inapposite to say the least.
Most police officers of my acquaintance (particularly those aged 40s or above) are not what I would call 'woke'!
Not sure how we got a discussion of 'woke' though. What RP describes is nothing to do with being 'woke' it's to do with blatant sexism/mysogyny and not turning a blind eye to it.
Quite. In general it would now appear that any attempt to analyse in any depth the societal factors contributing to problems disproportionately experienced by women or minorities is "woke". It's not a little pathetic.
And as for the subject somehow getting dragged onto Muslims - ??? C'mon.
Perhaps we should stick to the thread topic. What on earth was Brian Rose playing at?
In other news Tesla seem worried about being left behind in the UK market. I do wonder whether they regret picking Berlin now for their European site. Anyway it looks as though Tesla are scouting for land in the UK for an even larger gigafactory than what is under construction in Berlin. It's a shame we're two years late to the party, but it does seem as though the government is finally catching up to future needs of the UK economy, albeit a bit slowly.
I think Tesla have problems in Germany - they started building before permission was granted and it's not gone down well
was the first story google pointed me at but there will be a fair few more as I remember this from last year.
They did the same with the water rights, and that got sorted out. It's like everything else Tesla does - they take risks in order to move fast. Sometimes it doesn't work; most of the time it does.
But it's a reasonable assumption they'd have built it in the UK had we not Brexited.
From the look if it they still are planning to build in the UK, despite Brexit.
Not sure why you'd assume they'd build in the UK first had we not Brexited. Germany is the car manufacturing hub of Europe so they might rightly have assumed either way that Germany was the best place to invest in first. As it happens it looks like they're now planning to build in the UK anyway so what are you worrying about?
I thought the UK had never been a serious contender for a Tesla Gigafactory.
No he doesn't. Despite the attempted spin of a very partisan website with little more credibility than the Canary, what he actually says he never considered Britain because of Brexit and chose Germany for their own reasons.
That does not say he was considering Britain until Brexit.
Look, I don't want to argue with you. If Business Insider is too left wing, how about "Brexit uncertainty prompts Tesla to choose Germany over UK for first Europe plant" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2FbfLzda84 ... or any number of other news sources. Look at the facts and stop trying to spin things.
Mr. kinabalu, men are a majority of violent crime victims.
One problem with the blanket approach of 'men need to change' is that it's happy to acknowledge the fact that perpetrators of violent crimes (including rape) are likely to be men but there's scant regard given to the fact men are likelier to be victims of (non-sexual) violent crime.
Most people are happy to consider men potential criminals but more reluctant to see them as potential victims (this isn't as bad as it was, but used to be atrocious with regards to domestic abuse).
Men are twice as likely to be victims of violent crime - but about four times as likely to be perpetrators.
Testosterone.
Sadly yes - we are to an extent still victims of biology.
We don't know the details of the Everard case - how the police officer allegedly abducted her. It doesn't sound like it is a "normal" abduction / rape / murder case because of this added factor.
I fear that this will allow some men to dismiss it as a one-off. The method of the abduction / rape / murder may be a little unusual but the predilection of a small number of men to prey on women for the purposes of abduction / rape / murder is not.
What can I as a man with a wife and a daughter do about it? I can Speak Out. Nobody is saying "all men are rapists" because we aren't. But go and ask the women in your lives today if they have experienced fear when alone that the man following them, or the figure in the shadows, or the guys "having fun" by staring or making suggesting comments may be the one who preys on them. ALL the women I know have had this. All of them.
So yes, the onus is on the majority of men to stand up for and speak out for the women in their lives. So that the "its just a bit of fun" catcallers and starers and lewd comment minority stop. So that the tiny tiny minority of lunatics who want to abduct / rape / murder for sport have nowhere to hide.
I think the behaviour that you describe is bad in its own right.
The idea that it has anything to do with psychopathic rapists, though, is utterly absurd.
A counter-argument:
When Jo Cox was murdered by Thomas Mair in the run up to the Brexit vote, do you think his choice of victim was made at random? Of course not: he had been surrounded by increasingly vicious rhetoric that painted Remain MPs as traitors & fifth columnists. Those who spent their time online thundering on about traitorous Remainers clearly had no intention of inciting murder, yet when those words fell on susceptible ears we all know the result.
In a similar fashion, as RochdaleP says: the the "its just a bit of fun" catcallers and starers and lewd comment minority provide cover for those who are at risk of being tipped over the edge onto outright violence towards women. When those individuals find themselves surrounded by men who do those things, the message they hear repeated over and over again is that women are things, objects to be exploited. This is why it’s everybody’s responsibility to push back on that kind behaviour - not just because it’s unpleasant for the targets in and of itself, but also because it is the misogynist swamp in which the violent sociopaths swim - it’s the environment that tells them that their behaviour is OK, even approved of.
Drain the swamp.
No, I don't think Jo Cox was killed at random. She was assassinated. And you may have a point about the circumstances in which it happened.
We don't know the details of what's gone on in the current case, but it's possible (likely?) that this young woman was in the wrong place at the wrong time (though the killer may have identified her as a target before the night in question).
What makes some men behave like this? I don't know, but I'm not sure attributing it to catcalling is particularly helpful.
This man was a 49 year old officer in the MET. During his career, he will have been bathed and basted in PC ideology, and will be highly fluent in woke. The suggestion that in order not to go around abducting people the rest of society needs the same is inapposite to say the least.
Is not objectifying women "woke"? Is not making sexual comments at women "woke"? Is not catcalling and shaming women because of how they look "woke"?
You really do say the stupidest things at times.
I am sure I do, but I don't think the above is one of them.
Faced with the actions of a very sick individual (not a medical diagnosis, just a reflection on what he's done) we already have people agitating for a broad campaign espousing (and presumably enforcing) their values - ones which they just happened to be in favour of anyway. In this context it's worth noting that anyone in the position of this police officer is at the vanguard of these values being espoused and enforced, and it doesn't seem to have made a blind bit of difference.
I did not defend or commend any of the behaviours which you list.
The "values" that we are espousing are simple. Not objectifying women. Not sexually harassing women. Not catcalling and shaming women. Why are you against this?
Literally none of that would have stopped this murder.
"it's worth noting that anyone in the position of this police officer is at the vanguard of these values being espoused and enforced, and it doesn't seem to have made a blind bit of difference"
fire up the QUITE klaxon, lads, we're going to need it this afternoon.
Speaking on Radio 4’s Today programme, Phillips said random attacks on the street were a “rarity, if that is what this was”, but added: “The reality is that it’s not a rare crime. Since last week since when Sarah first went missing, six women and a little girl have been have been reported as being killed at the hands of men.
The problem, as ever, is what constitutes news. Sadly, a young black man being stabbed in London is not news. A young attractive woman being abducted on her way home very much is.
In other news Tesla seem worried about being left behind in the UK market. I do wonder whether they regret picking Berlin now for their European site. Anyway it looks as though Tesla are scouting for land in the UK for an even larger gigafactory than what is under construction in Berlin. It's a shame we're two years late to the party, but it does seem as though the government is finally catching up to future needs of the UK economy, albeit a bit slowly.
I think Tesla have problems in Germany - they started building before permission was granted and it's not gone down well
was the first story google pointed me at but there will be a fair few more as I remember this from last year.
They did the same with the water rights, and that got sorted out. It's like everything else Tesla does - they take risks in order to move fast. Sometimes it doesn't work; most of the time it does.
But it's a reasonable assumption they'd have built it in the UK had we not Brexited.
From the look if it they still are planning to build in the UK, despite Brexit.
Not sure why you'd assume they'd build in the UK first had we not Brexited. Germany is the car manufacturing hub of Europe so they might rightly have assumed either way that Germany was the best place to invest in first. As it happens it looks like they're now planning to build in the UK anyway so what are you worrying about?
I thought the UK had never been a serious contender for a Tesla Gigafactory.
No he doesn't. Despite the attempted spin of a very partisan website with little more credibility than the Canary, what he actually says he never considered Britain because of Brexit and chose Germany for their own reasons.
That does not say he was considering Britain until Brexit.
Look, I don't want to argue with you. If Business Insider is too left wing, how about "Brexit uncertainty prompts Tesla to choose Germany over UK for first Europe plant" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2FbfLzda84 ... or any number of other news sources. Look at the facts and stop trying to spin things.
Is "Euro News" an impartial news site on the question of Brexit? 🤔
Honestly I don't know. But why not see Musk's own words on it which include this section:
“We’ve decided to put the Tesla Gigafactory Europe in the Berlin area,” he said. “I come to Berlin a lot – Berlin rocks!”
“Some of the best cars in the world are made in Germany, everyone knows that German engineering is outstanding,” said Musk. “That’s part of the reason why we’re locating our Gigafactory Europe in Germany.
“We are also going to create an engineering and design centre in Berlin.”
In other news Tesla seem worried about being left behind in the UK market. I do wonder whether they regret picking Berlin now for their European site. Anyway it looks as though Tesla are scouting for land in the UK for an even larger gigafactory than what is under construction in Berlin. It's a shame we're two years late to the party, but it does seem as though the government is finally catching up to future needs of the UK economy, albeit a bit slowly.
I think Tesla have problems in Germany - they started building before permission was granted and it's not gone down well
was the first story google pointed me at but there will be a fair few more as I remember this from last year.
They did the same with the water rights, and that got sorted out. It's like everything else Tesla does - they take risks in order to move fast. Sometimes it doesn't work; most of the time it does.
But it's a reasonable assumption they'd have built it in the UK had we not Brexited.
From the look if it they still are planning to build in the UK, despite Brexit.
Not sure why you'd assume they'd build in the UK first had we not Brexited. Germany is the car manufacturing hub of Europe so they might rightly have assumed either way that Germany was the best place to invest in first. As it happens it looks like they're now planning to build in the UK anyway so what are you worrying about?
I thought the UK had never been a serious contender for a Tesla Gigafactory.
"In an interview with Auto Express, Musk said he didn't consider the UK as an option for Tesla's European Gigafactory because of Brexit uncertainty."
"Musk added that his decision was influenced by Germany's strong track record on engineering."
(Though I think there's a bit of politicking in there.)
Looks like you read the Auto Express interview and got the wrong end of the stick. "Musk said he didn't consider the UK as an option for Tesla's European Gigafactory - because of Brexit uncertainty"
Or in other words: Mr Musk also cited risks surrounding the UK's exit from the EU for his decision, according to AutoExpress. "Brexit [uncertainty] made it too risky to put a Gigafactory in the UK," he told the trade magazine. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50400068
In other news Tesla seem worried about being left behind in the UK market. I do wonder whether they regret picking Berlin now for their European site. Anyway it looks as though Tesla are scouting for land in the UK for an even larger gigafactory than what is under construction in Berlin. It's a shame we're two years late to the party, but it does seem as though the government is finally catching up to future needs of the UK economy, albeit a bit slowly.
I think Tesla have problems in Germany - they started building before permission was granted and it's not gone down well
was the first story google pointed me at but there will be a fair few more as I remember this from last year.
They did the same with the water rights, and that got sorted out. It's like everything else Tesla does - they take risks in order to move fast. Sometimes it doesn't work; most of the time it does.
But it's a reasonable assumption they'd have built it in the UK had we not Brexited.
From the look if it they still are planning to build in the UK, despite Brexit.
Not sure why you'd assume they'd build in the UK first had we not Brexited. Germany is the car manufacturing hub of Europe so they might rightly have assumed either way that Germany was the best place to invest in first. As it happens it looks like they're now planning to build in the UK anyway so what are you worrying about?
I thought the UK had never been a serious contender for a Tesla Gigafactory.
No he doesn't. Despite the attempted spin of a very partisan website with little more credibility than the Canary, what he actually says he never considered Britain because of Brexit and chose Germany for their own reasons.
That does not say he was considering Britain until Brexit.
Aiui, the Tesla decision on Germany was made for two reasons:
1 - To access Germany's very strong auto engineering base. 2 - So they could become a "domestic" manufacturer in the eyes of German consumers and compete with BMW/Audi/Mercedes on that basis rather than as an American company.
Basing itself in the UK was never really an option becuase of these two factors.
What has changed for the UK is that the UK is going to be the leading EV consumer market for the next decade because of the net zero pledge and government incentives for people to move to AEVs, the investment environment has changed because of the brexit deal and the proposed CPTPP deal both having rules of origin that encourage manufacturing to be based in the UK to avoid tariffs on EVs and Tesla realising that demand for their cars will be greater than supply even including what has been planned from the Berlin gigafactory so another one on Europe will be required. Building it in the UK which will benefit from a zero tariff/quota deal with the EU and a heavily reduced tariff/quota structure with most of APAC is probably a very big pull factor.
It's almost as if we are going to end up as the sweet spot location for world trade.
It's almost as if we are going to have our cake and eat it too.
In other news Tesla seem worried about being left behind in the UK market. I do wonder whether they regret picking Berlin now for their European site. Anyway it looks as though Tesla are scouting for land in the UK for an even larger gigafactory than what is under construction in Berlin. It's a shame we're two years late to the party, but it does seem as though the government is finally catching up to future needs of the UK economy, albeit a bit slowly.
I think Tesla have problems in Germany - they started building before permission was granted and it's not gone down well
was the first story google pointed me at but there will be a fair few more as I remember this from last year.
They did the same with the water rights, and that got sorted out. It's like everything else Tesla does - they take risks in order to move fast. Sometimes it doesn't work; most of the time it does.
But it's a reasonable assumption they'd have built it in the UK had we not Brexited.
From the look if it they still are planning to build in the UK, despite Brexit.
Not sure why you'd assume they'd build in the UK first had we not Brexited. Germany is the car manufacturing hub of Europe so they might rightly have assumed either way that Germany was the best place to invest in first. As it happens it looks like they're now planning to build in the UK anyway so what are you worrying about?
I thought the UK had never been a serious contender for a Tesla Gigafactory.
"In an interview with Auto Express, Musk said he didn't consider the UK as an option for Tesla's European Gigafactory because of Brexit uncertainty."
"Musk added that his decision was influenced by Germany's strong track record on engineering."
(Though I think there's a bit of politicking in there.)
Looks like you read the Auto Express interview and got the wrong end of the stick. "Musk said he didn't consider the UK as an option for Tesla's European Gigafactory - because of Brexit uncertainty"
Or in other words: Mr Musk also cited risks surrounding the UK's exit from the EU for his decision, according to AutoExpress. "Brexit [uncertainty] made it too risky to put a Gigafactory in the UK," he told the trade magazine. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50400068
Too risky to put it in the UK != it would have been in the UK were it not for the risk.
Just to be clear, I don't think Muslims are responsible for other people doing anything in the name of Islam.
I was just pointing out the rank hypocrisy of some on here.
I have rarely come across a comparison so facile and dim as this one - the notion that if you see a link between the objectification of women and the level of crime against them, then to avoid being a "rank hypocrite" you must hold all Muslims responsible for Islamist atrocities.
Speaking on Radio 4’s Today programme, Phillips said random attacks on the street were a “rarity, if that is what this was”, but added: “The reality is that it’s not a rare crime. Since last week since when Sarah first went missing, six women and a little girl have been have been reported as being killed at the hands of men.
The problem, as ever, is what constitutes news. Sadly, a young black man being stabbed in London is not news. A young attractive woman being abducted on her way home very much is.
I'm not sure how you solve that.
Especially if it's in an area journalists can imagine their loved ones being. So Clapham is a big story.
In other news Tesla seem worried about being left behind in the UK market. I do wonder whether they regret picking Berlin now for their European site. Anyway it looks as though Tesla are scouting for land in the UK for an even larger gigafactory than what is under construction in Berlin. It's a shame we're two years late to the party, but it does seem as though the government is finally catching up to future needs of the UK economy, albeit a bit slowly.
I think Tesla have problems in Germany - they started building before permission was granted and it's not gone down well
was the first story google pointed me at but there will be a fair few more as I remember this from last year.
They did the same with the water rights, and that got sorted out. It's like everything else Tesla does - they take risks in order to move fast. Sometimes it doesn't work; most of the time it does.
But it's a reasonable assumption they'd have built it in the UK had we not Brexited.
From the look if it they still are planning to build in the UK, despite Brexit.
Not sure why you'd assume they'd build in the UK first had we not Brexited. Germany is the car manufacturing hub of Europe so they might rightly have assumed either way that Germany was the best place to invest in first. As it happens it looks like they're now planning to build in the UK anyway so what are you worrying about?
I thought the UK had never been a serious contender for a Tesla Gigafactory.
"In an interview with Auto Express, Musk said he didn't consider the UK as an option for Tesla's European Gigafactory because of Brexit uncertainty."
"Musk added that his decision was influenced by Germany's strong track record on engineering."
(Though I think there's a bit of politicking in there.)
Looks like you read the Auto Express interview and got the wrong end of the stick. "Musk said he didn't consider the UK as an option for Tesla's European Gigafactory - because of Brexit uncertainty"
Or in other words: Mr Musk also cited risks surrounding the UK's exit from the EU for his decision, according to AutoExpress. "Brexit [uncertainty] made it too risky to put a Gigafactory in the UK," he told the trade magazine. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50400068
Too risky to put it in the UK != it would have been in the UK were it not for the risk.
Do you see the difference yet?
Nice backtracking. I'm just quoting Elon Musk. You're one of those people who never admits they're wrong.
In other news Tesla seem worried about being left behind in the UK market. I do wonder whether they regret picking Berlin now for their European site. Anyway it looks as though Tesla are scouting for land in the UK for an even larger gigafactory than what is under construction in Berlin. It's a shame we're two years late to the party, but it does seem as though the government is finally catching up to future needs of the UK economy, albeit a bit slowly.
I think Tesla have problems in Germany - they started building before permission was granted and it's not gone down well
was the first story google pointed me at but there will be a fair few more as I remember this from last year.
They did the same with the water rights, and that got sorted out. It's like everything else Tesla does - they take risks in order to move fast. Sometimes it doesn't work; most of the time it does.
But it's a reasonable assumption they'd have built it in the UK had we not Brexited.
From the look if it they still are planning to build in the UK, despite Brexit.
Not sure why you'd assume they'd build in the UK first had we not Brexited. Germany is the car manufacturing hub of Europe so they might rightly have assumed either way that Germany was the best place to invest in first. As it happens it looks like they're now planning to build in the UK anyway so what are you worrying about?
I thought the UK had never been a serious contender for a Tesla Gigafactory.
No he doesn't. Despite the attempted spin of a very partisan website with little more credibility than the Canary, what he actually says he never considered Britain because of Brexit and chose Germany for their own reasons.
That does not say he was considering Britain until Brexit.
Aiui, the Tesla decision on Germany was made for two reasons:
1 - To access Germany's very strong auto engineering base. 2 - So they could become a "domestic" manufacturer in the eyes of German consumers and compete with BMW/Audi/Mercedes on that basis rather than as an American company.
Basing itself in the UK was never really an option becuase of these two factors.
What has changed for the UK is that the UK is going to be the leading EV consumer market for the next decade because of the net zero pledge and government incentives for people to move to AEVs, the investment environment has changed because of the brexit deal and the proposed CPTPP deal both having rules of origin that encourage manufacturing to be based in the UK to avoid tariffs on EVs and Tesla realising that demand for their cars will be greater than supply even including what has been planned from the Berlin gigafactory so another one on Europe will be required. Building it in the UK which will benefit from a zero tariff/quota deal with the EU and a heavily reduced tariff/quota structure with most of APAC is probably a very big pull factor.
It's almost as if we are going to end up as the sweet spot location for world trade.
It's almost as if we are going to have our cake and eat it too.
But that would mean the EU had monumentally had fucked up. Probably to the point of it looking like they were having a hissy fit.
Thankfully there are no such signs, our relationship with the EU being one of sweetness and light, doing all they can to facilitate being great neighbours...
In other news Tesla seem worried about being left behind in the UK market. I do wonder whether they regret picking Berlin now for their European site. Anyway it looks as though Tesla are scouting for land in the UK for an even larger gigafactory than what is under construction in Berlin. It's a shame we're two years late to the party, but it does seem as though the government is finally catching up to future needs of the UK economy, albeit a bit slowly.
I think Tesla have problems in Germany - they started building before permission was granted and it's not gone down well
was the first story google pointed me at but there will be a fair few more as I remember this from last year.
They did the same with the water rights, and that got sorted out. It's like everything else Tesla does - they take risks in order to move fast. Sometimes it doesn't work; most of the time it does.
But it's a reasonable assumption they'd have built it in the UK had we not Brexited.
From the look if it they still are planning to build in the UK, despite Brexit.
Not sure why you'd assume they'd build in the UK first had we not Brexited. Germany is the car manufacturing hub of Europe so they might rightly have assumed either way that Germany was the best place to invest in first. As it happens it looks like they're now planning to build in the UK anyway so what are you worrying about?
I thought the UK had never been a serious contender for a Tesla Gigafactory.
No he doesn't. Despite the attempted spin of a very partisan website with little more credibility than the Canary, what he actually says he never considered Britain because of Brexit and chose Germany for their own reasons.
That does not say he was considering Britain until Brexit.
Look, I don't want to argue with you. If Business Insider is too left wing, how about "Brexit uncertainty prompts Tesla to choose Germany over UK for first Europe plant" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2FbfLzda84 ... or any number of other news sources. Look at the facts and stop trying to spin things.
Is "Euro News" an impartial news site on the question of Brexit? 🤔
Honestly I don't know. But why not see Musk's own words on it which include this section:
“We’ve decided to put the Tesla Gigafactory Europe in the Berlin area,” he said. “I come to Berlin a lot – Berlin rocks!”
“Some of the best cars in the world are made in Germany, everyone knows that German engineering is outstanding,” said Musk. “That’s part of the reason why we’re locating our Gigafactory Europe in Germany.
“We are also going to create an engineering and design centre in Berlin.”
Of course he said that. He;d have said a similar thing to UK workers if he'd decided to build in the UK.
Maybe the new regime will involve journos being on top of their brief, getting access to Ministers and firing incisive questions at them, aimed at getting to the heart of the issues of the day.
Racists have a long history of denying being racists.
Surely the default response of any racist on being asked if they are racist is that they aren't racist.
The default response of anyone who thinks they aren't racist is way more likely to be - what did I say that makes you think that?
I know in my case it would be.
The best way of determining that someone is not a racist is when they accept that everyone is a little bit racist sometimes. (but that does not mean they go around committing hate crimes).
All the recent polls have shown no moving into a lead and the recent debacle with the SNP does seem to be damaging them.
It matters not a jot whether there are slightly fewer Nats, if all this means is that there's just a slightly greater number of Sock Puppets instead. A pro-independence majority is a pro-independence majority is a pro-independence majority.
All the recent polls have shown no moving into a lead and the recent debacle with the SNP does seem to be damaging them.
It matters not a jot whether there are slightly fewer Nats, if all this means is that there's just a slightly greater number of Sock Puppets instead. A pro-independence majority is a pro-independence majority is a pro-independence majority.
You are transfixed that independence will happen and the evidence indicates that is not a certainty by any means
In other news Tesla seem worried about being left behind in the UK market. I do wonder whether they regret picking Berlin now for their European site. Anyway it looks as though Tesla are scouting for land in the UK for an even larger gigafactory than what is under construction in Berlin. It's a shame we're two years late to the party, but it does seem as though the government is finally catching up to future needs of the UK economy, albeit a bit slowly.
I think Tesla have problems in Germany - they started building before permission was granted and it's not gone down well
was the first story google pointed me at but there will be a fair few more as I remember this from last year.
They did the same with the water rights, and that got sorted out. It's like everything else Tesla does - they take risks in order to move fast. Sometimes it doesn't work; most of the time it does.
But it's a reasonable assumption they'd have built it in the UK had we not Brexited.
From the look if it they still are planning to build in the UK, despite Brexit.
Not sure why you'd assume they'd build in the UK first had we not Brexited. Germany is the car manufacturing hub of Europe so they might rightly have assumed either way that Germany was the best place to invest in first. As it happens it looks like they're now planning to build in the UK anyway so what are you worrying about?
I thought the UK had never been a serious contender for a Tesla Gigafactory.
"In an interview with Auto Express, Musk said he didn't consider the UK as an option for Tesla's European Gigafactory because of Brexit uncertainty."
"Musk added that his decision was influenced by Germany's strong track record on engineering."
(Though I think there's a bit of politicking in there.)
Looks like you read the Auto Express interview and got the wrong end of the stick. "Musk said he didn't consider the UK as an option for Tesla's European Gigafactory - because of Brexit uncertainty"
Or in other words: Mr Musk also cited risks surrounding the UK's exit from the EU for his decision, according to AutoExpress. "Brexit [uncertainty] made it too risky to put a Gigafactory in the UK," he told the trade magazine. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50400068
Too risky to put it in the UK != it would have been in the UK were it not for the risk.
I said "UK was never a strong contender for the first Gigafactory in Europe".
A quote says that is because of Brexit uncertainty and Germany being the biggest motor industry in Europe.
Yep - so UK was never a strong contender for the first GF in Europe, and there are the reasons.
ENDS - as they say in telegrams.
Though the chatter about it now being potentially on is interesting. I wonder what happens after the 5 year agreement (I think) in the FTA wrt % content of cars.
Racists have a long history of denying being racists.
Surely the default response of any racist on being asked if they are racist is that they aren't racist.
The default response of anyone who thinks they aren't racist is way more likely to be - what did I say that makes you think that?
I know in my case it would be.
Leaving aside the fact that a response to a serious accusation of "it's false" is entirely valid, why would William even bother to ask why the questioner said that? Questioner and responder both already know.
We don't know the details of the Everard case - how the police officer allegedly abducted her. It doesn't sound like it is a "normal" abduction / rape / murder case because of this added factor.
I fear that this will allow some men to dismiss it as a one-off. The method of the abduction / rape / murder may be a little unusual but the predilection of a small number of men to prey on women for the purposes of abduction / rape / murder is not.
What can I as a man with a wife and a daughter do about it? I can Speak Out. Nobody is saying "all men are rapists" because we aren't. But go and ask the women in your lives today if they have experienced fear when alone that the man following them, or the figure in the shadows, or the guys "having fun" by staring or making suggesting comments may be the one who preys on them. ALL the women I know have had this. All of them.
So yes, the onus is on the majority of men to stand up for and speak out for the women in their lives. So that the "its just a bit of fun" catcallers and starers and lewd comment minority stop. So that the tiny tiny minority of lunatics who want to abduct / rape / murder for sport have nowhere to hide.
I think the behaviour that you describe is bad in its own right.
The idea that it has anything to do with psychopathic rapists, though, is utterly absurd.
A counter-argument:
When Jo Cox was murdered by Thomas Mair in the run up to the Brexit vote, do you think his choice of victim was made at random? Of course not: he had been surrounded by increasingly vicious rhetoric that painted Remain MPs as traitors & fifth columnists. Those who spent their time online thundering on about traitorous Remainers clearly had no intention of inciting murder, yet when those words fell on susceptible ears we all know the result.
In a similar fashion, as RochdaleP says: the the "its just a bit of fun" catcallers and starers and lewd comment minority provide cover for those who are at risk of being tipped over the edge onto outright violence towards women. When those individuals find themselves surrounded by men who do those things, the message they hear repeated over and over again is that women are things, objects to be exploited. This is why it’s everybody’s responsibility to push back on that kind behaviour - not just because it’s unpleasant for the targets in and of itself, but also because it is the misogynist swamp in which the violent sociopaths swim - it’s the environment that tells them that their behaviour is OK, even approved of.
Drain the swamp.
No, I don't think Jo Cox was killed at random. She was assassinated. And you may have a point about the circumstances in which it happened.
We don't know the details of what's gone on in the current case, but it's possible (likely?) that this young woman was in the wrong place at the wrong time (though the killer may have identified her as a target before the night in question).
What makes some men behave like this? I don't know, but I'm not sure attributing it to catcalling is particularly helpful.
This man was a 49 year old officer in the MET. During his career, he will have been bathed and basted in PC ideology, and will be highly fluent in woke. The suggestion that in order not to go around abducting people the rest of society needs the same is inapposite to say the least.
You are both (wilfully?) misunderstanding the point I was making.
Nobody is attributing a murder directly to catcalling. What I (and others) are saying is that the smorgasbord of misogynistic behaviours that many men indulge in is creating the psychological space for some men to think that their more extreme behaviour towards women is OK, even approved of by other men. After all, the thinking goes, if they didn’t approve of it, why didn’t they say anything when I said those things about women down the pub?
Is it really "woke" to suggest that the endless low-grade sexual harrassment of women out on the street needs to stop? I don’t think it’s woke: I think it’s basic common decency. Something that, regardless of our political stance, we surely ought to be able to agree on.
What you are referring to isn't "woke" it is "sexism".
Sexism needs to stop. Ascribing sexism to all men is . . . sexist. Sexism belongs to the individuals who engage in it, not men.
Of course if someone is "awake" to social injustice then they should be aware of sexism.
Absolutely and they should not engage in sexism by making sweeping blanket statements about either men or women. To do so is sexist.
Something to think about: it is clearly the case that not all men are responsible for the sexual harassment that many women experience, yet for most of the women in question it is nevertheless always men doing it.
From their point of view, it looks an awful lot like men are the problem. Show a little empathy before you wade in with your "notallmen" sledgehammer?
Sorry but no. I do have empathy and I call out the sexists, but by moving away from calling out sexism and going to calling out everyone instead moves the onus away from the sexists who are the problem.
I would do the same with any group. If someone used a terrorist attack to attack all Muslims I'd view that as inappropriate - wouldn't you?
Call out sexists yes. Blame groups for the actions of individuals? No that is "-ism" and "-ism" is wrong.
I agree - the problem is that far too many men do not call out sexists or misogynists.
And do you think law-abiding Muslims do enough to counter Islamic terrorism?
Possibly the most absurd piece of whataboutery I have ever read.
No, it is about consistency.
Blaming law abiding Muslims for Islamic terrorism is racism. Blaming law abiding men for lone murderers is sexism.
Its worth noting the other person arrested in this case is a woman anyway. One man and one woman have been arrested. But yes, its all men's fault. 🙄
Perhaps the most asinine comment you have ever clicked "post" on. Makes the case for a "late delete" option utterly compelling.
Still, if the mainstream media coverage of "Men" ever gets like this -
NHS England now dividing positive cases into confirmed LFD, unconfirmed LFD, PCR. The unconfirmed LFDs can either be LFD followed by a negative PCR test or no test at all.
Is it the case that the Scottish Greens are only fielding Regional List Candidates?
Am I correct that this is what they have done before?
No and No
Their contesting Edinburgh Central in 2016 let Ruth Davidson come through the middle, which may be thought of as a good or a bad thing depending on your pov.
It may be thought of as a good thing this time. It would keep Angus Robertson out, and serve the SNP leadership right for their treatment of Joanna Cherry.
I can't think of any reason good enough to vote Tory with possible exception of the only other candidate being Farage or worse.
Lol - I think you are wavering....give it a couple of months
All the recent polls have shown no moving into a lead and the recent debacle with the SNP does seem to be damaging them.
It matters not a jot whether there are slightly fewer Nats, if all this means is that there's just a slightly greater number of Sock Puppets instead. A pro-independence majority is a pro-independence majority is a pro-independence majority.
You are transfixed that independence will happen and the evidence indicates that is not a certainty by any means
Possibly not, but then again I was making a point about the parliamentary mathematics in this instance and not the likelihood or otherwise of secession.
All the recent polls have shown no moving into a lead and the recent debacle with the SNP does seem to be damaging them.
It matters not a jot whether there are slightly fewer Nats, if all this means is that there's just a slightly greater number of Sock Puppets instead. A pro-independence majority is a pro-independence majority is a pro-independence majority.
You are transfixed that independence will happen and the evidence indicates that is not a certainty by any means
He also hasn't spotted that the Greens have either remained the same or gone slightly down in this poll. Suggesting that those moving away from the SNP are moving toward other parties.
In other news Tesla seem worried about being left behind in the UK market. I do wonder whether they regret picking Berlin now for their European site. Anyway it looks as though Tesla are scouting for land in the UK for an even larger gigafactory than what is under construction in Berlin. It's a shame we're two years late to the party, but it does seem as though the government is finally catching up to future needs of the UK economy, albeit a bit slowly.
I think Tesla have problems in Germany - they started building before permission was granted and it's not gone down well
was the first story google pointed me at but there will be a fair few more as I remember this from last year.
They did the same with the water rights, and that got sorted out. It's like everything else Tesla does - they take risks in order to move fast. Sometimes it doesn't work; most of the time it does.
But it's a reasonable assumption they'd have built it in the UK had we not Brexited.
From the look if it they still are planning to build in the UK, despite Brexit.
Not sure why you'd assume they'd build in the UK first had we not Brexited. Germany is the car manufacturing hub of Europe so they might rightly have assumed either way that Germany was the best place to invest in first. As it happens it looks like they're now planning to build in the UK anyway so what are you worrying about?
I thought the UK had never been a serious contender for a Tesla Gigafactory.
"In an interview with Auto Express, Musk said he didn't consider the UK as an option for Tesla's European Gigafactory because of Brexit uncertainty."
"Musk added that his decision was influenced by Germany's strong track record on engineering."
(Though I think there's a bit of politicking in there.)
Looks like you read the Auto Express interview and got the wrong end of the stick. "Musk said he didn't consider the UK as an option for Tesla's European Gigafactory - because of Brexit uncertainty"
Or in other words: Mr Musk also cited risks surrounding the UK's exit from the EU for his decision, according to AutoExpress. "Brexit [uncertainty] made it too risky to put a Gigafactory in the UK," he told the trade magazine. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50400068
Too risky to put it in the UK != it would have been in the UK were it not for the risk.
Do you see the difference yet?
Nice backtracking. I'm just quoting Elon Musk. You're one of those people who never admits they're wrong.
I'm just quoting him too and was not wrong. No backtracking necessary.
Yes he says that Brexit uncertainty* is part of why he didn't consider the UK, but he also never once said or hinted that it would have been the UK were it not for the uncertainty. He also gives many positive reasons as to why he chose Germany, that would have still applied had he considered the UK.
I could say I'm not going to consider sleeping with Angelina Jolie because I'm married, that doesn't mean if I was not married I would be going to sleep with Angelina Jolie. The UK was simply never considered.
* This is part of why I always thought extending Article 50 indefinitely as others like @Richard_Nabavi were keen on was a terrible, terrible idea. Uncertainty is crippling. The uncertainty is gone now, so now we are being considered. That is good. Brexit wasn't the issue, the uncertainty was and indefinitely extending Article 50 extended the uncertainty.
All the recent polls have shown no moving into a lead and the recent debacle with the SNP does seem to be damaging them.
It matters not a jot whether there are slightly fewer Nats, if all this means is that there's just a slightly greater number of Sock Puppets instead. A pro-independence majority is a pro-independence majority is a pro-independence majority.
There is already an SNP and Green majority now, the 2014 referendum only occurred because of the outright SNP majority in 2011.
Scots also oppose an indyref2 this year by 50% to 36% even if the SNP win a majority in May and by 51% to 32% if the SNP do not get a majority. Scots also oppose a referendum next year by 48% to 33%. Only 42% of Scots even support an indyref2 in the next 5 years.
A tale of two COVID waves - showing how test, track & trace, can work.
Main differences between the two waves - first wave 13 deaths, second wave 1 (so far, sole remaining positive COVID case is in hospital). Largely because oldies/care homes already had been jabbed. Also first wave first case identified on March 9th, lockdown introduced 10 days later. Second wave lockdown introduced day after source-unknown cluster identified. Additionally testing massively ramped up - to equivalent UK capacity of 1.5 - 2.0 million a day - this led to identification of 74% of the positive cases directly, slowing the spread (many of them were asymptomatic, but still infectious) - net result is although more infectious/deadly B.117 variant in second wave spread faster (whole households infected, vs individual members first time round) wave ended faster in 35 days vs 52.
Other factors common to both waves - rigorously enforced quarantine and fines up to £10,000 for breaches - notably far fewer in the second wave.
But also 63,000 people on an island with strict controls.
"Downing Street refuses to say it stands by Shaun Bailey after Sarah Everard comments
Number 10 was asked multiple times if the Prime Minister stood by Shaun Bailey Allegra Stratton: ‘You have to go to Shaun’s team and have this conversation with him’"
Why are the media allowed to release the name and photo of a man who hasn't even been found guilty yet? I am astonished this is allowed in these cases.
They clearly shouldn't, but we live in a social media age where things get out, far more than they would have 20 years ago. Its not right, but it happens.
"Downing Street refuses to say it stands by Shaun Bailey after Sarah Everard comments
Number 10 was asked multiple times if the Prime Minister stood by Shaun Bailey Allegra Stratton: ‘You have to go to Shaun’s team and have this conversation with him’"
The Tesla decision. It can both be true that Berlin / Germany was a pull factor and Brexit a push factor. Lets be honest about it - it would be a brave decision to chose to invest $lots into a factory for continental export into Britain right now. Lets also be honest about how obvious a European pick Germany is.
Had we not got the current trading FUBAR its still perfectly likely that Berlin would have more appeal than Sunderland. Can't think why...
All the recent polls have shown no moving into a lead and the recent debacle with the SNP does seem to be damaging them.
It matters not a jot whether there are slightly fewer Nats, if all this means is that there's just a slightly greater number of Sock Puppets instead. A pro-independence majority is a pro-independence majority is a pro-independence majority.
You are transfixed that independence will happen and the evidence indicates that is not a certainty by any means
He also hasn't spotted that the Greens have either remained the same or gone slightly down in this poll. Suggesting that those moving away from the SNP are moving toward other parties.
It's a slow process, but a very encouraging one.
The answer to that comes in two parts; firstly there will be hardline fringe pro-independence parties that didn't exist last time complicating the figures; and secondly, in any event, only one poll matters, so we shall see...
We don't know the details of the Everard case - how the police officer allegedly abducted her. It doesn't sound like it is a "normal" abduction / rape / murder case because of this added factor.
I fear that this will allow some men to dismiss it as a one-off. The method of the abduction / rape / murder may be a little unusual but the predilection of a small number of men to prey on women for the purposes of abduction / rape / murder is not.
What can I as a man with a wife and a daughter do about it? I can Speak Out. Nobody is saying "all men are rapists" because we aren't. But go and ask the women in your lives today if they have experienced fear when alone that the man following them, or the figure in the shadows, or the guys "having fun" by staring or making suggesting comments may be the one who preys on them. ALL the women I know have had this. All of them.
So yes, the onus is on the majority of men to stand up for and speak out for the women in their lives. So that the "its just a bit of fun" catcallers and starers and lewd comment minority stop. So that the tiny tiny minority of lunatics who want to abduct / rape / murder for sport have nowhere to hide.
I think the behaviour that you describe is bad in its own right.
The idea that it has anything to do with psychopathic rapists, though, is utterly absurd.
A counter-argument:
When Jo Cox was murdered by Thomas Mair in the run up to the Brexit vote, do you think his choice of victim was made at random? Of course not: he had been surrounded by increasingly vicious rhetoric that painted Remain MPs as traitors & fifth columnists. Those who spent their time online thundering on about traitorous Remainers clearly had no intention of inciting murder, yet when those words fell on susceptible ears we all know the result.
In a similar fashion, as RochdaleP says: the the "its just a bit of fun" catcallers and starers and lewd comment minority provide cover for those who are at risk of being tipped over the edge onto outright violence towards women. When those individuals find themselves surrounded by men who do those things, the message they hear repeated over and over again is that women are things, objects to be exploited. This is why it’s everybody’s responsibility to push back on that kind behaviour - not just because it’s unpleasant for the targets in and of itself, but also because it is the misogynist swamp in which the violent sociopaths swim - it’s the environment that tells them that their behaviour is OK, even approved of.
Drain the swamp.
No, I don't think Jo Cox was killed at random. She was assassinated. And you may have a point about the circumstances in which it happened.
We don't know the details of what's gone on in the current case, but it's possible (likely?) that this young woman was in the wrong place at the wrong time (though the killer may have identified her as a target before the night in question).
What makes some men behave like this? I don't know, but I'm not sure attributing it to catcalling is particularly helpful.
This man was a 49 year old officer in the MET. During his career, he will have been bathed and basted in PC ideology, and will be highly fluent in woke. The suggestion that in order not to go around abducting people the rest of society needs the same is inapposite to say the least.
You are both (wilfully?) misunderstanding the point I was making.
Nobody is attributing a murder directly to catcalling. What I (and others) are saying is that the smorgasbord of misogynistic behaviours that many men indulge in is creating the psychological space for some men to think that their more extreme behaviour towards women is OK, even approved of by other men. After all, the thinking goes, if they didn’t approve of it, why didn’t they say anything when I said those things about women down the pub?
Is it really "woke" to suggest that the endless low-grade sexual harrassment of women out on the street needs to stop? I don’t think it’s woke: I think it’s basic common decency. Something that, regardless of our political stance, we surely ought to be able to agree on.
What you are referring to isn't "woke" it is "sexism".
Sexism needs to stop. Ascribing sexism to all men is . . . sexist. Sexism belongs to the individuals who engage in it, not men.
Of course if someone is "awake" to social injustice then they should be aware of sexism.
Absolutely and they should not engage in sexism by making sweeping blanket statements about either men or women. To do so is sexist.
Something to think about: it is clearly the case that not all men are responsible for the sexual harassment that many women experience, yet for most of the women in question it is nevertheless always men doing it.
From their point of view, it looks an awful lot like men are the problem. Show a little empathy before you wade in with your "notallmen" sledgehammer?
Sorry but no. I do have empathy and I call out the sexists, but by moving away from calling out sexism and going to calling out everyone instead moves the onus away from the sexists who are the problem.
I would do the same with any group. If someone used a terrorist attack to attack all Muslims I'd view that as inappropriate - wouldn't you?
Call out sexists yes. Blame groups for the actions of individuals? No that is "-ism" and "-ism" is wrong.
I agree - the problem is that far too many men do not call out sexists or misogynists.
And do you think law-abiding Muslims do enough to counter Islamic terrorism?
Possibly the most absurd piece of whataboutery I have ever read.
No, it is about consistency.
Blaming law abiding Muslims for Islamic terrorism is racism. Blaming law abiding men for lone murderers is sexism.
Its worth noting the other person arrested in this case is a woman anyway. One man and one woman have been arrested. But yes, its all men's fault. 🙄
Perhaps the most asinine comment you have ever clicked "post" on. Makes the case for a "late delete" option utterly compelling.
Still, if the mainstream media coverage of "Men" ever gets like this -
Maybe you should have stopped and thought for a second.
I have a long standing opinion that the way the Express and Mail etc report is a bad thing.
So you're using what I use bad as an analogy for what I call bad . . . just what point did you think I was making? Just what point did you think you were making?
The Express blaming all Muslims for terror is bad. Idiots on Twitter blaming all men for murders is bad.
Blame for violence belongs with the individual. I call out the Express and idiots on Twitter and anyone else that engages in such discriminatory behaviour equally - do you? Or perhaps you should "late delete" or better yet "apologise" for such a silly post?
In other news Tesla seem worried about being left behind in the UK market. I do wonder whether they regret picking Berlin now for their European site. Anyway it looks as though Tesla are scouting for land in the UK for an even larger gigafactory than what is under construction in Berlin. It's a shame we're two years late to the party, but it does seem as though the government is finally catching up to future needs of the UK economy, albeit a bit slowly.
I think Tesla have problems in Germany - they started building before permission was granted and it's not gone down well
was the first story google pointed me at but there will be a fair few more as I remember this from last year.
They did the same with the water rights, and that got sorted out. It's like everything else Tesla does - they take risks in order to move fast. Sometimes it doesn't work; most of the time it does.
But it's a reasonable assumption they'd have built it in the UK had we not Brexited.
From the look if it they still are planning to build in the UK, despite Brexit.
Not sure why you'd assume they'd build in the UK first had we not Brexited. Germany is the car manufacturing hub of Europe so they might rightly have assumed either way that Germany was the best place to invest in first. As it happens it looks like they're now planning to build in the UK anyway so what are you worrying about?
I thought the UK had never been a serious contender for a Tesla Gigafactory.
No he doesn't. Despite the attempted spin of a very partisan website with little more credibility than the Canary, what he actually says he never considered Britain because of Brexit and chose Germany for their own reasons.
That does not say he was considering Britain until Brexit.
Aiui, the Tesla decision on Germany was made for two reasons:
1 - To access Germany's very strong auto engineering base. 2 - So they could become a "domestic" manufacturer in the eyes of German consumers and compete with BMW/Audi/Mercedes on that basis rather than as an American company.
Basing itself in the UK was never really an option becuase of these two factors.
What has changed for the UK is that the UK is going to be the leading EV consumer market for the next decade because of the net zero pledge and government incentives for people to move to AEVs, the investment environment has changed because of the brexit deal and the proposed CPTPP deal both having rules of origin that encourage manufacturing to be based in the UK to avoid tariffs on EVs and Tesla realising that demand for their cars will be greater than supply even including what has been planned from the Berlin gigafactory so another one on Europe will be required. Building it in the UK which will benefit from a zero tariff/quota deal with the EU and a heavily reduced tariff/quota structure with most of APAC is probably a very big pull factor.
Agreed 100%.
Very good news it is too it seems if so.
Interesting that I have a friend who has just dumped his Tesla for an electric iPace, because it is not good enough.
We don't know the details of the Everard case - how the police officer allegedly abducted her. It doesn't sound like it is a "normal" abduction / rape / murder case because of this added factor.
I fear that this will allow some men to dismiss it as a one-off. The method of the abduction / rape / murder may be a little unusual but the predilection of a small number of men to prey on women for the purposes of abduction / rape / murder is not.
What can I as a man with a wife and a daughter do about it? I can Speak Out. Nobody is saying "all men are rapists" because we aren't. But go and ask the women in your lives today if they have experienced fear when alone that the man following them, or the figure in the shadows, or the guys "having fun" by staring or making suggesting comments may be the one who preys on them. ALL the women I know have had this. All of them.
So yes, the onus is on the majority of men to stand up for and speak out for the women in their lives. So that the "its just a bit of fun" catcallers and starers and lewd comment minority stop. So that the tiny tiny minority of lunatics who want to abduct / rape / murder for sport have nowhere to hide.
I think the behaviour that you describe is bad in its own right.
The idea that it has anything to do with psychopathic rapists, though, is utterly absurd.
A counter-argument:
When Jo Cox was murdered by Thomas Mair in the run up to the Brexit vote, do you think his choice of victim was made at random? Of course not: he had been surrounded by increasingly vicious rhetoric that painted Remain MPs as traitors & fifth columnists. Those who spent their time online thundering on about traitorous Remainers clearly had no intention of inciting murder, yet when those words fell on susceptible ears we all know the result.
In a similar fashion, as RochdaleP says: the the "its just a bit of fun" catcallers and starers and lewd comment minority provide cover for those who are at risk of being tipped over the edge onto outright violence towards women. When those individuals find themselves surrounded by men who do those things, the message they hear repeated over and over again is that women are things, objects to be exploited. This is why it’s everybody’s responsibility to push back on that kind behaviour - not just because it’s unpleasant for the targets in and of itself, but also because it is the misogynist swamp in which the violent sociopaths swim - it’s the environment that tells them that their behaviour is OK, even approved of.
Drain the swamp.
No, I don't think Jo Cox was killed at random. She was assassinated. And you may have a point about the circumstances in which it happened.
We don't know the details of what's gone on in the current case, but it's possible (likely?) that this young woman was in the wrong place at the wrong time (though the killer may have identified her as a target before the night in question).
What makes some men behave like this? I don't know, but I'm not sure attributing it to catcalling is particularly helpful.
This man was a 49 year old officer in the MET. During his career, he will have been bathed and basted in PC ideology, and will be highly fluent in woke. The suggestion that in order not to go around abducting people the rest of society needs the same is inapposite to say the least.
Is not objectifying women "woke"? Is not making sexual comments at women "woke"? Is not catcalling and shaming women because of how they look "woke"?
You really do say the stupidest things at times.
I am sure I do, but I don't think the above is one of them.
Faced with the actions of a very sick individual (not a medical diagnosis, just a reflection on what he's done) we already have people agitating for a broad campaign espousing (and presumably enforcing) their values - ones which they just happened to be in favour of anyway. In this context it's worth noting that anyone in the position of this police officer is at the vanguard of these values being espoused and enforced, and it doesn't seem to have made a blind bit of difference.
I did not defend or commend any of the behaviours which you list.
The "values" that we are espousing are simple. Not objectifying women. Not sexually harassing women. Not catcalling and shaming women. Why are you against this?
Literally none of that would have stopped this murder.
"it's worth noting that anyone in the position of this police officer is at the vanguard of these values being espoused and enforced, and it doesn't seem to have made a blind bit of difference"
fire up the QUITE klaxon, lads, we're going to need it this afternoon.
Those PhDs you supervise - what happens if any of them make a point beyond the blindingly banal? Do you pass them to somebody else?
Quite right too. The Protocol doesn't work and it is in our interests to make that abundantly clear and find an alternative. Simply saying the UK agreed to it is neither here nor there, the UK is under no more of an obligation to make the Protocol work than France is to work towards all the rules they flout or "interpret" in the way that suits them best.
We absolutely should "interpret" the Protocol the way we mean it, they can do the same and if we can't meet in the middle we have an impasse. But only being tough works.
Agree. the background difficulty is that the GFA is predicated on the false and unstated assumption that RoI and UK are always under the same big umbrella for all practical everyday purposes, ie the EU.
The next difficulty is that in the Referendum campaign it suited Brexiteers to minimise or overlook the problem, and Remainers did not dare to say the thing which is closest to their view: The Irish situation makes it impossible to leave and that is a huge reason why we must remain - suck it up.
In a common sense world one of the obvious courses would be open - UK and RoI agree to remain or leave in tandem; unite Ireland and let it decide together on EU membership etc; UK to leave EU but remain in EFTA/EEA; have a soft Brexit with regulatory alignment and mutuality on ag/fish etc.
But we don't live in that sort of world. Boris and co (rightly I think) decided that Brexit had to be done while denying that they had made the only terms available, which were impossible, knowing that a forced further set of negotiations were essential. The difference being that we have now left and are still a huge market. the other difference is that the UK would never put up a border with RoI but, I think, the EU would but is desperate not to.
That's the Nats narrowly missing an overall Maj. Also has YES behind by 49/51
A 19 majority for independence is a comprehensive majority for a second referendum, even if it would be won by Yes which would likely settle the issue at last.
That's the Nats narrowly missing an overall Maj. Also has YES behind by 49/51
A 19 majority for independence is a comprehensive majority for a second referendum, even if it would be won by Yes which would likely settle the issue at last.
lol.. The government will deny a vote (yes yes yes, you disagree). The Nats failing to get a majority (should that happen, still a long way to go) will be helpful in justifying that. "Look, THE party for independence only got X votes and seats", "it's not a majority opinion, Scots care more about other things first, fixing the economy after plague, etc".
This is realpolitik. I do accept that if Sturgeon had got some Home Rule Ireland type vote 70%+ votes and seats for her Nationalist party, then morally the case would be harder to argue against (HMG would still try)
But the SNP stumbling at the fence? A win for Westminster
Plus see all the various polls saying Scots don't want a vote til 2023 at least, Scots don't want a wildcat referendum
I said a couple of weeks ago that the SNP not getting a majority was a VALUE bet. The odds then were (IIRC) about 5/1 against them failing. I was right, it was VALUE.
The question is do we accept responsibility for what we've done, but not for who we are ?
That's a good way of putting it. But this doesn't mean that arguing a probable link between the widespread objectification of women in society and the level of violent crime against them is tantamount to "blaming all men for crimes against women". Or (even more absurdly) that when you make such an argument you are in some way seeking to blame the specific crime that's currently in the news on anyone but the perpetrator.
The question is do we accept responsibility for what we've done, but not for who we are ?
That's a good way of putting it. But this doesn't mean that arguing a probable link between the widespread objectification of women in society and the level of violent crime against them is tantamount to "blaming all men for crimes against women". Or (even more absurdly) that when you make such an argument you are in some way seeking to blame the specific crime that's currently in the news on anyone but the perpetrator.
Are you saying you are in favour of Express style headlines then?
I've said I'm against them. Where do you stand? Are you pro Express and pro Mail blaming the perpetrators group rather than the perpetrator?
I'm assuming it's a route that people are forced down because of Covid closures etc. Seems to be a particular bugbear for some folk, that Brexity vicar who's always on the radio was comparing them to the Berlin Wall recently.
That's the Nats narrowly missing an overall Maj. Also has YES behind by 49/51
A 19 majority for independence is a comprehensive majority for a second referendum, even if it would be won by Yes which would likely settle the issue at last.
No it isn't, there is already an SNP and Green majority now.
In 2011 the SNP won a majority, that was the only reason Westminster even considered allowing an indyref2 in 2014.
Scots oppose an indyref2 this year by 50% to 36% even if the SNP win a majority in May and by 51% to 32% if the SNP do not get a majority. Scots also oppose a referendum next year by 48% to 33%. Only 42% of Scots even support an indyref2 in the next 5 years.
That's the Nats narrowly missing an overall Maj. Also has YES behind by 49/51
A 19 majority for independence is a comprehensive majority for a second referendum, even if it would be won by Yes which would likely settle the issue at last.
lol.. The government will deny a vote (yes yes yes, you disagree). The Nats failing to get a majority (should that happen, still a long way to go) will be helpful in justifying that. "Look, THE party for independence only got X votes and seats", "it's not a majority opinion, Scots care more about other things first, fixing the economy after plague, etc".
This is realpolitik. I do accept that if Sturgeon had got some Home Rule Ireland type vote 70%+ votes and seats for her Nationalist party, then morally the case would be harder to argue against (HMG would still try)
But the SNP stumbling at the fence? A win for Westminster
Plus see all the various polls saying Scots don't want a vote til 2023 at least, Scots don't want a wildcat referendum
I said a couple of weeks ago that the SNP not getting a majority was a VALUE bet. The odds then were (IIRC) about 5/1 against them failing. I was right, it was VALUE.
I don't disagree the government will deny a vote.
I think it might but that the government would be wrong to do so.
A 19 majority for Independence is still a comprehensive Nat majority.
I'm happy to call out my own party when I think it's in the wrong.
The Tesla decision. It can both be true that Berlin / Germany was a pull factor and Brexit a push factor. Lets be honest about it - it would be a brave decision to chose to invest $lots into a factory for continental export into Britain right now. Lets also be honest about how obvious a European pick Germany is.
Had we not got the current trading FUBAR its still perfectly likely that Berlin would have more appeal than Sunderland. Can't think why...
Especially when Sunderland wasn't the proposed location - Redcar was...
Comments
Blaming law abiding Muslims for Islamic terrorism is racism.
Blaming law abiding men for lone murderers is sexism.
Its worth noting the other person arrested in this case is a woman anyway. One man and one woman have been arrested. But yes, its all men's fault. 🙄
I was just pointing out the rank hypocrisy of some on here.
https://www.politico.eu/article/denmark-suspends-rollout-of-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-following-cases-of-severe-blood-clots/
Very good news it is too it seems if so.
Since Johnson is devious and dishonest, hence untrustworthy, they could be right.
"Musk said he didn't consider the UK as an option for Tesla's European Gigafactory
- because of Brexit uncertainty"
By the way, I think I read a piece recently that it's now builders up on scaffolding who feel that they're the ones being objectified, not the other way around!
We absolutely should "interpret" the Protocol the way we mean it, they can do the same and if we can't meet in the middle we have an impasse. But only being tough works.
https://youtu.be/7FJH6gveFjo
1st doses 14,921
2nd doses 15,508
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1369978992829337602?s=20
And as for the subject somehow getting dragged onto Muslims - ??? C'mon.
Perhaps we should stick to the thread topic. What on earth was Brian Rose playing at?
"Brexit uncertainty prompts Tesla to choose Germany over UK for first Europe plant"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2FbfLzda84
... or any number of other news sources.
Look at the facts and stop trying to spin things.
"it's worth noting that anyone in the position of this police officer is at the vanguard of these values being espoused and enforced, and it doesn't seem to have made a blind bit of difference"
fire up the QUITE klaxon, lads, we're going to need it this afternoon.
Speaking on Radio 4’s Today programme, Phillips said random attacks on the street were a “rarity, if that is what this was”, but added: “The reality is that it’s not a rare crime. Since last week since when Sarah first went missing, six women and a little girl have been have been reported as being killed at the hands of men.
The problem, as ever, is what constitutes news. Sadly, a young black man being stabbed in London is not news. A young attractive woman being abducted on her way home very much is.
I'm not sure how you solve that.
Honestly I don't know. But why not see Musk's own words on it which include this section:
“We’ve decided to put the Tesla Gigafactory Europe in the Berlin area,” he said. “I come to Berlin a lot – Berlin rocks!”
“Some of the best cars in the world are made in Germany, everyone knows that German engineering is outstanding,” said Musk. “That’s part of the reason why we’re locating our Gigafactory Europe in Germany.
“We are also going to create an engineering and design centre in Berlin.”
Mr Musk also cited risks surrounding the UK's exit from the EU for his decision, according to AutoExpress.
"Brexit [uncertainty] made it too risky to put a Gigafactory in the UK," he told the trade magazine.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50400068
Do you see the difference yet?
So Clapham is a big story.
https://twitter.com/RaynerSkyNews/status/1369979749624279042?s=19
I'm just quoting Elon Musk.
You're one of those people who never admits they're wrong.
Racists have a long history of denying being racists.
Thankfully there are no such signs, our relationship with the EU being one of sweetness and light, doing all they can to facilitate being great neighbours...
"make women feel safer and lessen discrimination'
Bonkers - lessen discrimination by discriminating against all men - also would ruin the commute if we ever return to office.....
What am I saying......
The default response of anyone who thinks they aren't racist is way more likely to be - what did I say that makes you think that?
I know in my case it would be.
https://twitter.com/MdUbershot/status/1369984677931540481?s=20
Ubershot is presumably a lover of Britain and its history, but only some bits of it.
I said "UK was never a strong contender for the first Gigafactory in Europe".
A quote says that is because of Brexit uncertainty and Germany being the biggest motor industry in Europe.
Yep - so UK was never a strong contender for the first GF in Europe, and there are the reasons.
ENDS - as they say in telegrams.
Though the chatter about it now being potentially on is interesting. I wonder what happens after the 5 year agreement (I think) in the FTA wrt % content of cars.
'It seems so many people haven't learned the lessons from the Christopher Jefferies experience.'
Still, if the mainstream media coverage of "Men" ever gets like this -
The unconfirmed LFDs can either be LFD followed by a negative PCR test or no test at all.
It's a slow process, but a very encouraging one.
Yes he says that Brexit uncertainty* is part of why he didn't consider the UK, but he also never once said or hinted that it would have been the UK were it not for the uncertainty. He also gives many positive reasons as to why he chose Germany, that would have still applied had he considered the UK.
I could say I'm not going to consider sleeping with Angelina Jolie because I'm married, that doesn't mean if I was not married I would be going to sleep with Angelina Jolie. The UK was simply never considered.
* This is part of why I always thought extending Article 50 indefinitely as others like @Richard_Nabavi were keen on was a terrible, terrible idea. Uncertainty is crippling. The uncertainty is gone now, so now we are being considered. That is good. Brexit wasn't the issue, the uncertainty was and indefinitely extending Article 50 extended the uncertainty.
Scots also oppose an indyref2 this year by 50% to 36% even if the SNP win a majority in May and by 51% to 32% if the SNP do not get a majority. Scots also oppose a referendum next year by 48% to 33%. Only 42% of Scots even support an indyref2 in the next 5 years.
Only 36% of Scots support an indyref2 without Westminster consent.
https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5jtqxj3u8b/TimesResults_Scotland_210308_W1.pdf
Frances Barber: Hold my beer (or gin or Chardonnay or...)
https://twitter.com/TheTrashiesUK/status/1369991604057034759?s=20
https://twitter.com/GreenJennyJones/status/1369781660401758209
"Downing Street refuses to say it stands by Shaun Bailey after Sarah Everard comments
Number 10 was asked multiple times if the Prime Minister stood by Shaun Bailey
Allegra Stratton: ‘You have to go to Shaun’s team and have this conversation with him’"
https://tinyurl.com/eeae32eb
Had we not got the current trading FUBAR its still perfectly likely that Berlin would have more appeal than Sunderland. Can't think why...
Tweet about how the average person is not able to handle the power of a chicken.
No, sorry, this
https://twitter.com/ProfPMiddleton/status/1369962078711205889?s=20
That's the Nats narrowly missing an overall Maj. Also has YES behind by 49/51
I have a long standing opinion that the way the Express and Mail etc report is a bad thing.
So you're using what I use bad as an analogy for what I call bad . . . just what point did you think I was making? Just what point did you think you were making?
The Express blaming all Muslims for terror is bad.
Idiots on Twitter blaming all men for murders is bad.
Blame for violence belongs with the individual. I call out the Express and idiots on Twitter and anyone else that engages in such discriminatory behaviour equally - do you? Or perhaps you should "late delete" or better yet "apologise" for such a silly post?
Has depressing amounts of spare cash.
The next difficulty is that in the Referendum campaign it suited Brexiteers to minimise or overlook the problem, and Remainers did not dare to say the thing which is closest to their view: The Irish situation makes it impossible to leave and that is a huge reason why we must remain - suck it up.
In a common sense world one of the obvious courses would be open - UK and RoI agree to remain or leave in tandem; unite Ireland and let it decide together on EU membership etc; UK to leave EU but remain in EFTA/EEA; have a soft Brexit with regulatory alignment and mutuality on ag/fish etc.
But we don't live in that sort of world. Boris and co (rightly I think) decided that Brexit had to be done while denying that they had made the only terms available, which were impossible, knowing that a forced further set of negotiations were essential. The difference being that we have now left and are still a huge market. the other difference is that the UK would never put up a border with RoI but, I think, the EU would but is desperate not to.
Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.
I'll ask again. Are you saying Prince William is a racist? Or just implying it?
This is realpolitik. I do accept that if Sturgeon had got some Home Rule Ireland type vote 70%+ votes and seats for her Nationalist party, then morally the case would be harder to argue against (HMG would still try)
But the SNP stumbling at the fence? A win for Westminster
Plus see all the various polls saying Scots don't want a vote til 2023 at least, Scots don't want a wildcat referendum
I said a couple of weeks ago that the SNP not getting a majority was a VALUE bet. The odds then were (IIRC) about 5/1 against them failing. I was right, it was VALUE.
I've said I'm against them. Where do you stand? Are you pro Express and pro Mail blaming the perpetrators group rather than the perpetrator?
In 2011 the SNP won a majority, that was the only reason Westminster even considered allowing an indyref2 in 2014.
Scots oppose an indyref2 this year by 50% to 36% even if the SNP win a majority in May and by 51% to 32% if the SNP do not get a majority. Scots also oppose a referendum next year by 48% to 33%. Only 42% of Scots even support an indyref2 in the next 5 years.
Only 36% of Scots support an indyref2 without Westminster consent.
https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5jtqxj3u8b/TimesResults_Scotland_210308_W1.pdf
I think it might but that the government would be wrong to do so.
A 19 majority for Independence is still a comprehensive Nat majority.
I'm happy to call out my own party when I think it's in the wrong.