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LOST IN THE WOODS: Labour’s Challenge for the 2020s – politicalbetting.com

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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,496
    Thanks RP for the header. Good format and length - that's not faint praise, it stymies many other a potential good article. Regarding the recommendations themselves, I feel the first few are presentational and could almost be one point. The real meat and potatoes are the Parliament for England idea, and the untethering of the Welsh and Scottish Parties idea. These are both things I agree could have legs for Labour, if done properly.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,082

    Cheers Rochdale, this is the sort of thing Labour should be looking at,

    https://twitter.com/rcolvile/status/1367425959327133701

    It makes me realise how fortunate I have been.

    Having said that

    2008/09 minimum wage £5.73

    £5.73 in 2020 money is £7.82

    2020/21 minimum wage is £8.72

    That's an 11.5% increase in real terms.
    The Coalition and Conservative Govts. since 2010 deserve considerable plaudits for pushing this up. They make Labour look very cheap. Almost Victorian mill-owner in comparison....
    Of course Labour were the ones who implemented the Minimum Wage to begin with, and to much Conservative opposition I believe.
    Only of interest to historians. The Conservatives have now run with making it work - and found the money to fund it properly.
    Well by that logic your weird comparison with "Victorian mill-owners" is also only of interest to historians.

    Come on man.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    The focus of that is very interesting, it's all services, services, services. Stuff that is impossible to agree within the structures of the EU.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited March 2021
    I must confess I wouldn't have expected Mario Draghi, of all the EU leaders, to be the one going mediaeval on vaccine manufacturers: During a phone call with European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen on Wednesday, Mr Draghi said it was necessary to "suffocate" big pharmaceutical companies to force them to respect the agreed delivery terms..

    The number of senior politicians who seem to have lost their minds recently beggars belief. Are they trying to drive pharmaceutical companies out of the EU?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,751
    edited March 2021
    GIN1138 said:

    Nigelb said:

    I posted this at the end of the last thread.
    It's not of any immediate alarm, but it's another indication of why we need to get the pandemic ended through vaccination as quickly as possible.

    https://twitter.com/Bergthalerlab/status/1367508214233841669

    I wonder if we'll all have to have regular booster jabs every 12 months or so to take account of the variants. A little bit like how they tweak to the Flu jab every year?
    Way too early to jump to that conclusion - but it is prudent to prepare (as ours and other governments are doing) for that eventuality.
    My guess (which is worth no more anyone else's) is that we won't need to.

    The cost of assuming that we will, and being proved wrong, is orders of magnitude less than assuming that we won't... and being proved wrong.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,082
    In personal vaccine news, I'm still waiting for my Group 6 appointment.
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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    I must confess I wouldn't have expected it Mario Draghi, of all the EU leaders, to be the one going mediaeval on vaccine manufacturers: During a phone call with European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen on Wednesday, Mr Draghi said it was necessary to "suffocate" big pharmaceutical companies to force them to respect the agreed delivery terms..

    The number of senior politicians who seem to have lost their minds recently beggars belief. Are they trying to drive pharmaceutical companies out of the EU?

    Sounds like it's more necessary that the EU is suffocated to force them to respect fair practice. This is nothing more than piracy and AZN should be looking for a way to distribute the doses within the EU but outside of their structures, with no doses going to Italy.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,235
    GIN1138 said:

    Nigelb said:

    I posted this at the end of the last thread.
    It's not of any immediate alarm, but it's another indication of why we need to get the pandemic ended through vaccination as quickly as possible.

    https://twitter.com/Bergthalerlab/status/1367508214233841669

    I wonder if we'll all have to have regular booster jabs every 12 months or so to take account of the variants. A little bit like how they tweak to the Flu jab every year?
    Quite likely I think. Especially if there exists reservoirs of Covid world-wide (almost certainly will be the case), hence why zero-Covid is likely to fail ultimately.
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    On topic, this article is bang on in my opinion, and the list of suggestions is absolutely right for an immediate battle plan. Starmer may even know most or all of this - Nandy was certainly pushing a lot of these ideas. However, the issue is there is almost complete disconnect between a large chunk of the activist base, who want exactly the opposite of all these things, and the voters they need. So until they manage to square that circle, the party has a problem.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,235
    GIN1138 said:

    Get in there, lass!
    Lass????? :D
    Truss
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    GIN1138 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "COVID-19: Italy and EU block Oxford vaccine shipment to Australia"

    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-italy-and-eu-block-oxford-vaccine-shipment-to-australia-12235848

    Why on earth is Australia relying on the EU for their vaccines?
    Because, and this tends to be forgotten, the US instituted an export ban on vaccines manufactured there. Which is why the UK is getting its Moderna vaccines from the new Swiss plant, and several months after they were contractually supposed to deliver.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    I must confess I wouldn't have expected it Mario Draghi, of all the EU leaders, to be the one going mediaeval on vaccine manufacturers: During a phone call with European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen on Wednesday, Mr Draghi said it was necessary to "suffocate" big pharmaceutical companies to force them to respect the agreed delivery terms..

    The number of senior politicians who seem to have lost their minds recently beggars belief. Are they trying to drive pharmaceutical companies out of the EU?

    It does seem that way. We've got a conveniently timed 130% superdeduction on capital investment as well. Kwasi, Liz and Rishi need to get on the phone to every major pharma company today.
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    kinabalu said:

    @RochdalePioneers

    Can what you suggest here - on tone and empathy - be combined with radical re-distributive policies, do you think?

    No, and I don;t think they should be. "Radical re-distributive policies" is translated by Labour activists as smash capitalism, and by Labour-skeptics as a threat to their own taxes / jobs.

    I don't think there is anything fundamentally broken in the economy that can't be fixed (the constitutional settlement is another thing entirely...). We have seen the Chancellor turbocharge one change I have called for - investment. The other major change is to pivot away from "benefits" and back to a social security safety net.

    More investment by more businesses equals more jobs and more consumption. Couple that with an end to the notion that any handout to the needy is a personal affront to the taxpayer and we can build something sustainable.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "COVID-19: Italy and EU block Oxford vaccine shipment to Australia"

    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-italy-and-eu-block-oxford-vaccine-shipment-to-australia-12235848

    Why on earth is Australia relying on the EU for their vaccines?
    Because, and this tends to be forgotten, the US instituted an export ban on vaccines manufactured there. Which is why the UK is getting its Moderna vaccines from the new Swiss plant, and several months after they were contractually supposed to deliver.
    I'm not sure that it's a specific export ban so much as it's monopoly purchase of supply due to subsidy agreements signed with Moderna as part of operation warp speed. Very much like our agreements with AZ, Novavax and Valneva where our domestic manufacturing agreements bind them to supply the UK government's full allocation first before exports are allowed.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    1. The EU tries to get AZN vaccines that are contractually due to other nations.
    2. They fail.
    3. They try to slander AZN to say it doesn't work so they don't want it anyway.
    4. It works.
    5. Evidence becomes unsurmountable that it works.
    6. The EU acknowledges that it works.
    7. The EU tries to get AZN vaccines that are contractually due to other nations.
    Have I got the timeline right?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,788
    "EU set to accuse Apple of distorting competition in music streaming" (via Google search)

    https://www.ft.com/content/d37c476c-b4cd-4b47-9ed2-d19ad2341ea8
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    I must confess I wouldn't have expected it Mario Draghi, of all the EU leaders, to be the one going mediaeval on vaccine manufacturers: During a phone call with European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen on Wednesday, Mr Draghi said it was necessary to "suffocate" big pharmaceutical companies to force them to respect the agreed delivery terms..

    The number of senior politicians who seem to have lost their minds recently beggars belief. Are they trying to drive pharmaceutical companies out of the EU?

    It does seem that way. We've got a conveniently timed 130% superdeduction on capital investment as well. Kwasi, Liz and Rishi need to get on the phone to every major pharma company today.
    Early days but potentially that 130% was a masterstroke.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,106
    More convoluted logic from Comedy Dave:
    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1367524971220774913
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,751
    TimT said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nigelb said:

    I posted this at the end of the last thread.
    It's not of any immediate alarm, but it's another indication of why we need to get the pandemic ended through vaccination as quickly as possible.

    https://twitter.com/Bergthalerlab/status/1367508214233841669

    I wonder if we'll all have to have regular booster jabs every 12 months or so to take account of the variants. A little bit like how they tweak to the Flu jab every year?
    NigelB: I just saw another paper, which you may have posted, where some of the co-authors are from Novavax, which implied the opposite - that the T-cell response was very hardy to viral mutation as they recognize a larger number of epitopes than do antibodies.

    Do you think the results of this study might, to some extent, be an artifact of doing a cell-free study, and looking at epitopes individually (if that is what they did), rather than at the total in vivo T-cell response?
    Absolutely - it's less likely to happen or be of significance than the antibody evasion demonstrated.
    I think the authors make the same point.
    It's only demonstrating that T-cell evasion can happen, not that it will.

    ...The majority of nonsynonymous mutations found in the validated CTL escapes had not reached fixation, i.e., were present at frequencies between 0.02 and 0.42 (Fig. 1B). This could be explained by the shorter duration of infection with SARS-CoV-2 compared to HIV or HCV. It may also reflect on the degree to which HLA polymorphism affects viral spreading within human populations. The impact of single anchor residue substitutions on the response of CD4+ T cells is still unclear.

    Our findings do not rule out that substitutions of residues facing the cognate T cell receptor may give rise to the emergence of CTL neoepitopes. Of note, we could show for the YLQ epitope that T cell clones that expanded in vitro in the presence of mutant peptides were identical to those expanded in response to the wild type peptide, suggesting a similar if not identical structural basis underlying TCR-epitope engagement.

    This study does not allow direct conclusions to be drawn concerning potential selection pressures which shape the mutational landscape of CD8+ T cell epitopes. This would invariably involve accounting for the HLA genotype of all individuals from whom SARS-CoV-2 genomes were sequenced. Moreover, how CTL escape mutations are maintained during transmission between individuals with differing HLA subtypes and how viruses carrying epitope mutations affect disease severity requires further investigation....
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,299

    kinabalu said:

    Labour's problems are amply demonstrated by its leader, a north London lawyer, getting it oh so wrong about levelling up yesterday. Put Darlington solidly in the blue column next time - and probably a raft of Red Wall seats too, if the Keir sneer is all they are going to get.

    Starmer didn't sneer about Darlington at all. The full quote was on the last thread - did you read it? He was making a valid point that any government that was deadly serious about levelling up would be doing much more radical reform than was contained in yesterday's budget. I don't have a problem with what Sunak announced on Darlington and other measures (and nor does Starmer), and it's a start, but the structural reforms needed to really equalise power, wealth and influence across the regions will take a lot more genuinely redistributive measures than the Tories would countenance, I suspect. At the moment, the shifting of resources to the north seems to be mainly focused on securing marginal seats. Mind you, I'm not sure that the current Labour Party would countenance the sort of changes needed to move power away from London either.
    Yes. Not to be po-faced but the standard of political debate is really heading south.
    Yes, I've been posting on here for a year now. (Before that I lurked, but was too busy to post because I had to earn a living - god knows how some people on here who still work find the time to post so much.) There remain many really interesting and thoughtful posters who contribute to debate, from all sides, and make me think. However, I'm pretty confident that there's been a notable increase over the last year in partisan point-scoring focusing on absolute trivia; it sort of mirrors the approach of a government in permanent campaigning, point-scoring mode, I guess. Far be it for me to suggest which side of the political spectrum most of the trivia comes from. And I'm not talking about the humorous posts, which are splendid - just the sort of fake news, attack the 'woke', gotcha posts.
    Only a year? I've done a 3 stretch. Yes, there is perhaps a sense of PB.com BTL trending with the climate. There's a whiff of one party rule and triumphalism after the Johnson landslide and the realization that almost regardless of events, he and they can bank on 40% core support (and thus be hot favourites under FPTP) because they own the dominant English political identity of Leave. "Bliss it was in that dawn to be alive, but to be a Tory Leaver was very heaven". There's a lot of this sentiment and it fuels bumption. Ah well. Tides turn. Could do with that "onlylivingboy" poster back. Seem to have lost our midfield playmaker there.
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:


    That's strange. PB Brains Trust I get it. But First Minister vs some random doctor?

    Who do you think has the better access to the bigger picture and advice?

    PB Brains Trust, obv.
    While this is clearly a joke, in fact there has been some very sound thinking and advice on this very forum. There are enough experts from a wide variety of disciplines to contribute. A bit like how parliament ought to be, but sadly isn't.
    If pb was in charge of the pandemic response, it would have been 'different', but also interesting...
    How `bout this for a PB.com cabinet:

    Prime Minister: Stodge
    Chancellor of the Exchequer: Contrarian
    Foreign Secretary: DavidL
    Home Secretary: Black Rook
    Justice: Kinabalu
    Health: Gallowgate
    Work and pensions: Nabavi
    Education: Ydoethur
    Department for International Trade: PT
    Defence: HYUFD
    Secretary of State for Scotland: MalcyG
    Chief Whip: Topping
    This a cabinet from the 1950s.

    Cyclefree is making the tea, right ?
    Don't worry. I've been sacked after a rumpus at the first meeting and she is now at Justice.
    The pb.com cabinet has now moved from the 1950s to the early 1960s.

    Much more work needed on EDI, pb.com is still way, way behind the wicked Tories
    Yes, and it needs root & branch reform not mere tinkering. We need to get more women and minorities (inc young people under 55) to want to enter PB.com in the first place. The barriers must be removed and at least for a period there could be value in giving things a firm push with some affirmative action.
    Haha.

    In truth, PB could do with more women, younger folk, and people who don’t live in a semi-detached in the Midlands.
    I bet hardly anyone on pb.com lives in as luxurious a dwelling as a semi-detached in the Midlands 😉

    My guess is the typical pb-er has the merest pittance.

    Barely enough for a house in North London, a flat in Mayfair, a little weekend place in the country, a couple of good cars, a villa in the South of France and a handful of Isa stocks & share portfolios.
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    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,846

    algarkirk said:

    Thank you Rochdale Pioneers for this piece.

    In my view the clue is in the name: Labour.

    It’s about jobs, meaningful jobs.
    And support from state services that allow all to live in dignity.

    Rishi’s budget actually continues the austerity of the 2010s, and doesn’t really do anything for jobs with the exception of the corporate investment subsidy.

    Keir does get this I think, if my scanning of his budget response is fair - but he hasn’t figured out how to communicate that properly to the public in a compelling way.

    Austerity is not quite the word for a Conservative government whose expenditure is £850 bn, a huge proportion of which is borrowed, and vast sums of which are redistributed to less well off people.



    Austerity to public services.
    Austerity in wage growth.
    Private sector wages won't grow as long as employers have an effectively infinite labour pool to fish in. I am a senior software engineer and can tell you when you go job hunting the wages companies offer now are on par with the wages they offered in 2002 outside of a couple of very niche specialities.

    It used to be if your company decided against payrises then you could get one by changing job. No longer true anymore at least in my role. Think on that....I currently earn the same amount as I did in 2002. So do most of my colleagues. Yet we are constantly being told there is a shortage of it workers.

    The only people I know who work in the private sector that have seen payrises are all minimum wage workers due to minimum wage being uprated.

    Brexit for many was a chance to cut down the size of the labour pool. It was remainer Rose after all that said we should remain in the eu else wages might rise
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    Interesting article btw, @RochdalePioneers, lots to think about for Labour. They do seem a bit lost at sea because the Tories have stolen all of their policies but aren't losing any voters on their right wing due to lack of competition.

    At this point in time I could seriously see the Tories storming to another landslide victory with 100+ seat majority.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,654
    Good sharp piece.

    Appreciated.
  • Options
    TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    Nigelb said:

    TimT said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nigelb said:

    I posted this at the end of the last thread.
    It's not of any immediate alarm, but it's another indication of why we need to get the pandemic ended through vaccination as quickly as possible.

    https://twitter.com/Bergthalerlab/status/1367508214233841669

    I wonder if we'll all have to have regular booster jabs every 12 months or so to take account of the variants. A little bit like how they tweak to the Flu jab every year?
    NigelB: I just saw another paper, which you may have posted, where some of the co-authors are from Novavax, which implied the opposite - that the T-cell response was very hardy to viral mutation as they recognize a larger number of epitopes than do antibodies.

    Do you think the results of this study might, to some extent, be an artifact of doing a cell-free study, and looking at epitopes individually (if that is what they did), rather than at the total in vivo T-cell response?
    Absolutely - it's less likely to happen or be of significance than the antibody evasion demonstrated.
    I think the authors make the same point.
    It's only demonstrating that T-cell evasion can happen, not that it will.

    ...The majority of nonsynonymous mutations found in the validated CTL escapes had not reached fixation, i.e., were present at frequencies between 0.02 and 0.42 (Fig. 1B). This could be explained by the shorter duration of infection with SARS-CoV-2 compared to HIV or HCV. It may also reflect on the degree to which HLA polymorphism affects viral spreading within human populations. The impact of single anchor residue substitutions on the response of CD4+ T cells is still unclear.

    Our findings do not rule out that substitutions of residues facing the cognate T cell receptor may give rise to the emergence of CTL neoepitopes. Of note, we could show for the YLQ epitope that T cell clones that expanded in vitro in the presence of mutant peptides were identical to those expanded in response to the wild type peptide, suggesting a similar if not identical structural basis underlying TCR-epitope engagement.

    This study does not allow direct conclusions to be drawn concerning potential selection pressures which shape the mutational landscape of CD8+ T cell epitopes. This would invariably involve accounting for the HLA genotype of all individuals from whom SARS-CoV-2 genomes were sequenced. Moreover, how CTL escape mutations are maintained during transmission between individuals with differing HLA subtypes and how viruses carrying epitope mutations affect disease severity requires further investigation....
    Thanks
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,008
    MaxPB said:

    Interesting article btw, @RochdalePioneers, lots to think about for Labour. They do seem a bit lost at sea because the Tories have stolen all of their policies but aren't losing any voters on their right wing due to lack of competition.

    At this point in time I could seriously see the Tories storming to another landslide victory with 100+ seat majority.

    2024 (well actually 2023) vote Tory for a chance that a Government department could be moved to your area.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,654

    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:


    That's strange. PB Brains Trust I get it. But First Minister vs some random doctor?

    Who do you think has the better access to the bigger picture and advice?

    PB Brains Trust, obv.
    While this is clearly a joke, in fact there has been some very sound thinking and advice on this very forum. There are enough experts from a wide variety of disciplines to contribute. A bit like how parliament ought to be, but sadly isn't.
    If pb was in charge of the pandemic response, it would have been 'different', but also interesting...
    How `bout this for a PB.com cabinet:

    Prime Minister: Stodge
    Chancellor of the Exchequer: Contrarian
    Foreign Secretary: DavidL
    Home Secretary: Black Rook
    Justice: Kinabalu
    Health: Gallowgate
    Work and pensions: Nabavi
    Education: Ydoethur
    Department for International Trade: PT
    Defence: HYUFD
    Secretary of State for Scotland: MalcyG
    Chief Whip: Topping
    This a cabinet from the 1950s.

    Cyclefree is making the tea, right ?
    More likely crossing the T.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131

    Cheers Rochdale, this is the sort of thing Labour should be looking at,

    https://twitter.com/rcolvile/status/1367425959327133701

    It makes me realise how fortunate I have been.

    Having said that

    2008/09 minimum wage £5.73

    £5.73 in 2020 money is £7.82

    2020/21 minimum wage is £8.72

    That's an 11.5% increase in real terms.
    The Coalition and Conservative Govts. since 2010 deserve considerable plaudits for pushing this up. They make Labour look very cheap. Almost Victorian mill-owner in comparison....
    Of course Labour were the ones who implemented the Minimum Wage to begin with, and to much Conservative opposition I believe.
    Only of interest to historians. The Conservatives have now run with making it work - and found the money to fund it properly.
    Government doesn’t fund the Minimum Wage, except as an employer.
    I can't find the stats, but I expect there aren't that many public sector Minimum Wage jobs, so admittedly, it doesn't cost much to lead by example. But the Govt. insisting the private sector pays it rather suggests the Conservatives aren't exactly in the pockets of big business any longer...
  • Options
    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,906

    MaxPB said:

    I must confess I wouldn't have expected it Mario Draghi, of all the EU leaders, to be the one going mediaeval on vaccine manufacturers: During a phone call with European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen on Wednesday, Mr Draghi said it was necessary to "suffocate" big pharmaceutical companies to force them to respect the agreed delivery terms..

    The number of senior politicians who seem to have lost their minds recently beggars belief. Are they trying to drive pharmaceutical companies out of the EU?

    It does seem that way. We've got a conveniently timed 130% superdeduction on capital investment as well. Kwasi, Liz and Rishi need to get on the phone to every major pharma company today.
    Early days but potentially that 130% was a masterstroke.
    1.3 x 19% is just under 25%

    Is the super-deduction just an attempt to avoid investment being delayed until the tax rise kicks in, when there will be a higher rate to offset? Albeit that there isn't currently a blanket 100% deduction at present.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited March 2021
    On topic: @RochdalePioneers makes a very good case. As others have pointed out in the past, it's somewhat similar in the US. See here, especially for the point about how ethnic minorities aren't necessarily enthused by the worldview of white liberals, even on race-related issues:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1367424038780489729
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,008
    edited March 2021

    Endillion said:

    On topic, this article is bang on in my opinion, and the list of suggestions is absolutely right for an immediate battle plan. Starmer may even know most or all of this - Nandy was certainly pushing a lot of these ideas. However, the issue is there is almost complete disconnect between a large chunk of the activist base, who want exactly the opposite of all these things, and the voters they need. So until they manage to square that circle, the party has a problem.

    Its a catastrophic development for the party. There has always been a division between "proper" working class and the university class, but now there seems to be a zealous zeal from the middle class university educated membership who see any hint of bread and butter issues that concern working people as a betrayal.

    What makes it worse is that the rapid onset of this insanity is a direct bounce away from Blair and Blairism. It doesn't matter that Tough on Crime, Tough on the Causes of Crime was a perfect policy - cut to the issue, presented simply, liked and understood by voters. If Blair did it then it must be wrong cos he's a Tory war criminal.
    I think it's actually worse then you are making out.

    Look at Teesside and the other areas where Labour were in power for 40+ years prior to 2015/20 say.

    And then think what argument you could use if you were the Labour candidate against say Ben Houchen who has delivered everything he's promised (and more).

    Talking local won't work in those areas as talking local may (will) remind people that Labour did nowt for years (especially with austerity post 2010) and things only improved after Labour was removed from power.

    And yes Austerity was a Tory (Osbourne) policy but the Labour party were the people who cut everything locally.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898
    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:


    That's strange. PB Brains Trust I get it. But First Minister vs some random doctor?

    Who do you think has the better access to the bigger picture and advice?

    PB Brains Trust, obv.
    While this is clearly a joke, in fact there has been some very sound thinking and advice on this very forum. There are enough experts from a wide variety of disciplines to contribute. A bit like how parliament ought to be, but sadly isn't.
    If pb was in charge of the pandemic response, it would have been 'different', but also interesting...
    How `bout this for a PB.com cabinet:

    Prime Minister: Stodge
    Chancellor of the Exchequer: Contrarian
    Foreign Secretary: DavidL
    Home Secretary: Black Rook
    Justice: Kinabalu
    Health: Gallowgate
    Work and pensions: Nabavi
    Education: Ydoethur
    Department for International Trade: PT
    Defence: HYUFD
    Secretary of State for Scotland: MalcyG
    Chief Whip: Topping
    Fair play not putting yourself in as PM
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,868
    edited March 2021

    Endillion said:

    On topic, this article is bang on in my opinion, and the list of suggestions is absolutely right for an immediate battle plan. Starmer may even know most or all of this - Nandy was certainly pushing a lot of these ideas. However, the issue is there is almost complete disconnect between a large chunk of the activist base, who want exactly the opposite of all these things, and the voters they need. So until they manage to square that circle, the party has a problem.

    Its a catastrophic development for the party. There has always been a division between "proper" working class and the university class, but now there seems to be a zealous zeal from the middle class university educated membership who see any hint of bread and butter issues that concern working people as a betrayal.

    What makes it worse is that the rapid onset of this insanity is a direct bounce away from Blair and Blairism. It doesn't matter that Tough on Crime, Tough on the Causes of Crime was a perfect policy - cut to the issue, presented simply, liked and understood by voters. If Blair did it then it must be wrong cos he's a Tory war criminal.
    It'll be interesting to see what you make of Slab - there is more scope in Scotland for the woke MC types to join credible alternative parties (ie ones which actually have [edit: significant] parliamentary representation). As the gender wars in the SNP and the Scottish Greens may indicate.

    The impression I got of SLAB poilling a few years ago was that it was reliant on the elderly working class. Very skewed distribution, like the Tories, but I am not sure if that is still true.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131
    edited March 2021
    Oof!

    (Tory lead over Labour at the 2019 election was 11.5% - now 13%, Tory lead over LibDems 32% - now 39%)
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    MaxPB said:

    I must confess I wouldn't have expected it Mario Draghi, of all the EU leaders, to be the one going mediaeval on vaccine manufacturers: During a phone call with European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen on Wednesday, Mr Draghi said it was necessary to "suffocate" big pharmaceutical companies to force them to respect the agreed delivery terms..

    The number of senior politicians who seem to have lost their minds recently beggars belief. Are they trying to drive pharmaceutical companies out of the EU?

    It does seem that way. We've got a conveniently timed 130% superdeduction on capital investment as well. Kwasi, Liz and Rishi need to get on the phone to every major pharma company today.
    Early days but potentially that 130% was a masterstroke.
    1.3 x 19% is just under 25%

    Is the super-deduction just an attempt to avoid investment being delayed until the tax rise kicks in, when there will be a higher rate to offset? Albeit that there isn't currently a blanket 100% deduction at present.
    No, it means that a company that invests £10m will get £13m off their tax bill. It's a 30% capital investment credit at the moment it's 25% I think. This is a step change for capital investment in the UK and it needs to be made permanent.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,183
    Nigelb said:

    TimT said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nigelb said:

    I posted this at the end of the last thread.
    It's not of any immediate alarm, but it's another indication of why we need to get the pandemic ended through vaccination as quickly as possible.

    https://twitter.com/Bergthalerlab/status/1367508214233841669

    I wonder if we'll all have to have regular booster jabs every 12 months or so to take account of the variants. A little bit like how they tweak to the Flu jab every year?
    NigelB: I just saw another paper, which you may have posted, where some of the co-authors are from Novavax, which implied the opposite - that the T-cell response was very hardy to viral mutation as they recognize a larger number of epitopes than do antibodies.

    Do you think the results of this study might, to some extent, be an artifact of doing a cell-free study, and looking at epitopes individually (if that is what they did), rather than at the total in vivo T-cell response?
    Absolutely - it's less likely to happen or be of significance than the antibody evasion demonstrated.
    I think the authors make the same point.
    It's only demonstrating that T-cell evasion can happen, not that it will.

    ...The majority of nonsynonymous mutations found in the validated CTL escapes had not reached fixation, i.e., were present at frequencies between 0.02 and 0.42 (Fig. 1B). This could be explained by the shorter duration of infection with SARS-CoV-2 compared to HIV or HCV. It may also reflect on the degree to which HLA polymorphism affects viral spreading within human populations. The impact of single anchor residue substitutions on the response of CD4+ T cells is still unclear.

    Our findings do not rule out that substitutions of residues facing the cognate T cell receptor may give rise to the emergence of CTL neoepitopes. Of note, we could show for the YLQ epitope that T cell clones that expanded in vitro in the presence of mutant peptides were identical to those expanded in response to the wild type peptide, suggesting a similar if not identical structural basis underlying TCR-epitope engagement.

    This study does not allow direct conclusions to be drawn concerning potential selection pressures which shape the mutational landscape of CD8+ T cell epitopes. This would invariably involve accounting for the HLA genotype of all individuals from whom SARS-CoV-2 genomes were sequenced. Moreover, how CTL escape mutations are maintained during transmission between individuals with differing HLA subtypes and how viruses carrying epitope mutations affect disease severity requires further investigation....
    Thanks for the clarification on that. I thought that was the case but I lack the scientific training to be sure!
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561

    Andy_JS said:

    "COVID-19: Italy and EU block Oxford vaccine shipment to Australia"

    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-italy-and-eu-block-oxford-vaccine-shipment-to-australia-12235848

    Can't help feeling that the rumoured EU er.... comment to Australia on the UK application for CPTPP is going to have the opposite effect intended....
    Which comment was this? I must have missed it.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    Mental. I'm honestly shocked that Labour are getting no look in despite the Tories delivering 125k excess deaths in a year and putting taxes up quite significantly for individuals.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    MaxPB said:


    No, it means that a company that invests £10m will get £13m off their tax bill. It's a 30% capital investment credit at the moment it's 25% I think. This is a step change for capital investment in the UK and it needs to be made permanent.

    No, they'll get £13m off their taxable profits, not their tax bill. It's not THAT generous!
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,363
    Starmer isn't the charmer they thought he might be. He is as dull as ditchwater. Labour need Rumpole.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898
    edited March 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Actually, I like to think if we were still in the EU we would indeed have persuaded them to behave in a more reasonable way, so I suppose I agree with Layla Moran on this.
    But the argument makes no sense when it was being argued, and I accept I was one of them, that the UK going it alone would end up with a worse outcome than the EU on this issue.

    She was surely one of the people outraged about our lack of involvement in the EU scheme on the basis we would face a worse outcome, therefore if she did argue that, her reasoning was that the UK was worse at such negotiations.

    Accordingly, how can it be subsequently argued to also believe we would have improved their response?
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,013
    It is interesting that the Greens are now persistently in third place and around 7 per cent. Anecdotally, the leading edge of anti-Starmer dissidents have chosen the Greens as the next vehicle. If the flags and fudge continue, this could go a little higher - it's not like young people have a lot to lose by shifting from one small opposition party to another.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,751
    How do you give a first dose to more than 100% of a cohort ?

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1367487132416290819
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    They're a bit flummoxed by not wanting to dilute the existing agreement which pushes the UK even further out of the EU's sphere of influence. I don't see that they have a choice but to just let it slide because tariffs on UK exports to the EU make an already low value deal for the UK even worse.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,751
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Interesting article btw, @RochdalePioneers, lots to think about for Labour. They do seem a bit lost at sea because the Tories have stolen all of their policies but aren't losing any voters on their right wing due to lack of competition.

    At this point in time I could seriously see the Tories storming to another landslide victory with 100+ seat majority.

    2024 (well actually 2023) vote Tory for a chance that a Government department could be moved to your area.
    There goes the NIMBY vote.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898

    Sort of on topic, the fresh new face of SLab. I'm afraid the prospect of Goggsy Broon speechifying put me off watching it all the way through, but I imagine Anas was smart enough not to include a union flag.

    https://twitter.com/PeterArnottGlas/status/1367503700864950283?s=20

    He name dropped Gordon Brown not Keir Starmer in his victory speech, so that makes sense.
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    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561
    EPG said:

    It is interesting that the Greens are now persistently in third place and around 7 per cent. Anecdotally, the leading edge of anti-Starmer dissidents have chosen the Greens as the next vehicle. If the flags and fudge continue, this could go a little higher - it's not like young people have a lot to lose by shifting from one small opposition party to another.
    Always nice to see Tory leads more than twice as big as Lib Dem shares.
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,317
    Extraordinary. If the Tories were in opposition you'd say that was an excellent poll for them. All Labour can tell themselves is that the alchemist Boris won't be around for ever. Perhaps they might be able to make some inroads against his successor, whenever that will be.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Excellent header from @RochdalePioneers, with very little for me to disagree with. The harsh truth facing Labour is that for the party to win, its activists, intellectuals, and most passionate supporters have to lose.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Oh gawd, we are going to be stuck Boris for another 8 years aren't we.....
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    edited March 2021

    MaxPB said:


    No, it means that a company that invests £10m will get £13m off their tax bill. It's a 30% capital investment credit at the moment it's 25% I think. This is a step change for capital investment in the UK and it needs to be made permanent.

    No, they'll get £13m off their taxable profits, not their tax bill. It's not THAT generous!
    The way he announced it yesterday implied the former but maybe it was tricky wording and the actual money set aside per year - £13bn - also seems to imply that it's a gigantic policy.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,106
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Actually, I like to think if we were still in the EU we would indeed have persuaded them to behave in a more reasonable way, so I suppose I agree with Layla Moran on this.
    But the argument makes no sense when it was being argued, and I accept I was one of them, that the UK going it alone would end up with a worse outcome than the EU on this issue.

    She was surely one of the people outraged about our lack of involvement in the EU scheme on the basis we would face a worse outcome, therefore if she did argue that, her reasoning was that the UK was worse at such negotiations.

    Accordingly, how can it be subsequently argued to also believe we would have improved their response?
    This is the argument she was making at the time.
    https://twitter.com/LaylaMoran/status/1279079605916311553
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898
    edited March 2021
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:


    That's strange. PB Brains Trust I get it. But First Minister vs some random doctor?

    Who do you think has the better access to the bigger picture and advice?

    PB Brains Trust, obv.
    While this is clearly a joke, in fact there has been some very sound thinking and advice on this very forum. There are enough experts from a wide variety of disciplines to contribute. A bit like how parliament ought to be, but sadly isn't.
    If pb was in charge of the pandemic response, it would have been 'different', but also interesting...
    How `bout this for a PB.com cabinet:

    Prime Minister: Stodge
    Chancellor of the Exchequer: Contrarian
    Foreign Secretary: DavidL
    Home Secretary: Black Rook
    Justice: Kinabalu
    Health: Gallowgate
    Work and pensions: Nabavi
    Education: Ydoethur
    Department for International Trade: PT
    Defence: HYUFD
    Secretary of State for Scotland: MalcyG
    Chief Whip: Topping
    This a cabinet from the 1950s.

    Cyclefree is making the tea, right ?
    Don't worry. I've been sacked after a rumpus at the first meeting and she is now at Justice.
    Mr Meeks for Brexit Secretary?

    No such position.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,008
    edited March 2021

    MaxPB said:


    No, it means that a company that invests £10m will get £13m off their tax bill. It's a 30% capital investment credit at the moment it's 25% I think. This is a step change for capital investment in the UK and it needs to be made permanent.

    No, they'll get £13m off their taxable profits, not their tax bill. It's not THAT generous!
    https://www.cityam.com/budget-2021-how-does-the-new-tax-super-deduction-work/

    £10m investment
    £13m deduction on taxable profits
    tax bill reduced by £2.5m
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,363
    MaxPB said:

    Mental. I'm honestly shocked that Labour are getting no look in despite the Tories delivering 125k excess deaths in a year and putting taxes up quite significantly for individuals.
    The Tories did not deliver 125k excess deaths.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    Pfizer’s jab is pricey and must be stored in freezers. In contrast, AstraZeneca’s is cheap and needs only normal refrigeration. If the AstraZeneca vaccine also matches Pfizer’s efficacy, which now appears likely, it could play a leading role in ending the pandemic—so long as people do not reject it based on ill-founded swipes from the likes of Mr Macron.

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/03/06/new-data-show-that-leading-covid-19-vaccines-have-similarly-high-efficacy
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,008

    Pfizer’s jab is pricey and must be stored in freezers. In contrast, AstraZeneca’s is cheap and needs only normal refrigeration. If the AstraZeneca vaccine also matches Pfizer’s efficacy, which now appears likely, it could play a leading role in ending the pandemic—so long as people do not reject it based on ill-founded swipes from the likes of Mr Macron.

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/03/06/new-data-show-that-leading-covid-19-vaccines-have-similarly-high-efficacy

    pfizer's jab may not actually require those expensive freezers - that's one of the things they are currently trialing now they have more time.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Wow.

    I always say to ignore midterm polls, but that is absolutely incredible.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Actually, I like to think if we were still in the EU we would indeed have persuaded them to behave in a more reasonable way, so I suppose I agree with Layla Moran on this.
    But the argument makes no sense when it was being argued, and I accept I was one of them, that the UK going it alone would end up with a worse outcome than the EU on this issue.

    She was surely one of the people outraged about our lack of involvement in the EU scheme on the basis we would face a worse outcome, therefore if she did argue that, her reasoning was that the UK was worse at such negotiations.

    Accordingly, how can it be subsequently argued to also believe we would have improved their response?
    This is the argument she was making at the time.
    https://twitter.com/LaylaMoran/status/1279079605916311553
    As expected - thus to argue about our expectise helping is deeply insincere, when she argued we needed to be in to save us from our own incompetence (granted we have plenty).

    Now, maybe she has changed her mind on that given how things have turned out. But given how confident she was that they would correct things for us, how can she believe the reverse would happened?

    She doesn't.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    Nigelb said:

    How do you give a first dose to more than 100% of a cohort ?

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1367487132416290819

    People getting older and ONS population stats being out of date.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,510

    Cheers Rochdale, this is the sort of thing Labour should be looking at,

    https://twitter.com/rcolvile/status/1367425959327133701

    It makes me realise how fortunate I have been.

    Having said that

    2008/09 minimum wage £5.73

    £5.73 in 2020 money is £7.82

    2020/21 minimum wage is £8.72

    That's an 11.5% increase in real terms.
    The Coalition and Conservative Govts. since 2010 deserve considerable plaudits for pushing this up. They make Labour look very cheap. Almost Victorian mill-owner in comparison....
    Of course Labour were the ones who implemented the Minimum Wage to begin with, and to much Conservative opposition I believe.
    Only of interest to historians. The Conservatives have now run with making it work - and found the money to fund it properly.
    Government doesn’t fund the Minimum Wage, except as an employer.
    I can't find the stats, but I expect there aren't that many public sector Minimum Wage jobs, so admittedly, it doesn't cost much to lead by example. But the Govt. insisting the private sector pays it rather suggests the Conservatives aren't exactly in the pockets of big business any longer...
    IIRC there are quite a lot of cleaning/security guard/delivery jobs that are paid directly or indirectly (via a contractor) by the government.
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561

    MaxPB said:

    Mental. I'm honestly shocked that Labour are getting no look in despite the Tories delivering 125k excess deaths in a year and putting taxes up quite significantly for individuals.
    The Tories did not deliver 125k excess deaths.
    And people who object to putting taxes up aren't going to vote Labour.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,008

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Actually, I like to think if we were still in the EU we would indeed have persuaded them to behave in a more reasonable way, so I suppose I agree with Layla Moran on this.
    But the argument makes no sense when it was being argued, and I accept I was one of them, that the UK going it alone would end up with a worse outcome than the EU on this issue.

    She was surely one of the people outraged about our lack of involvement in the EU scheme on the basis we would face a worse outcome, therefore if she did argue that, her reasoning was that the UK was worse at such negotiations.

    Accordingly, how can it be subsequently argued to also believe we would have improved their response?
    This is the argument she was making at the time.
    https://twitter.com/LaylaMoran/status/1279079605916311553
    Once again - most thing are a compromise between quality, price and delivery speed.

    We chose quality and delivery speed - the EU didn't.

    Which is why we are likely to fine come June / July time and the EU will have problems until at least the Autumn.
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    I told you, labour would be better off with Corbyn.

    At least he could accuse Sunak of stealing his policies.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,183
    Nigelb said:

    How do you give a first dose to more than 100% of a cohort ?

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1367487132416290819

    There are more in the cohort than anticipated because the records are out of date - they might even be based on the census.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Nigelb said:

    How do you give a first dose to more than 100% of a cohort ?

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1367487132416290819

    Nurse with the shakes?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,751

    Cheers Rochdale, this is the sort of thing Labour should be looking at,

    https://twitter.com/rcolvile/status/1367425959327133701

    It makes me realise how fortunate I have been.

    Having said that

    2008/09 minimum wage £5.73

    £5.73 in 2020 money is £7.82

    2020/21 minimum wage is £8.72

    That's an 11.5% increase in real terms.
    The Coalition and Conservative Govts. since 2010 deserve considerable plaudits for pushing this up. They make Labour look very cheap. Almost Victorian mill-owner in comparison....
    Of course Labour were the ones who implemented the Minimum Wage to begin with, and to much Conservative opposition I believe.
    Only of interest to historians. The Conservatives have now run with making it work - and found the money to fund it properly.
    Government doesn’t fund the Minimum Wage, except as an employer.
    I can't find the stats, but I expect there aren't that many public sector Minimum Wage jobs, so admittedly, it doesn't cost much to lead by example. But the Govt. insisting the private sector pays it rather suggests the Conservatives aren't exactly in the pockets of big business any longer...
    Most minimum wage employees aren't employed by big business, though - they are disproportionately employed by smaller businesses.

    Hospitality and retail are the largest sectoral employers. Cleaners make up quite a large proportion - but are employed across all sectors.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,883

    MaxPB said:

    Mental. I'm honestly shocked that Labour are getting no look in despite the Tories delivering 125k excess deaths in a year and putting taxes up quite significantly for individuals.
    The Tories did not deliver 125k excess deaths.
    They did and they havent finished yet

    World beating death rates down to Tory mismanagement of the crisis and 10 years of Austerity meaning our infrastructure going into it was terrible

    Needs to be said every day like Labours recession

    Theres an idea
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Oh gawd, we are going to be stuck Boris for another 8 years aren't we.....

    Probably only another six or seven. He could hand over to Sunak before the 2028 or 2029 election.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898
    MaxPB said:

    Mental. I'm honestly shocked that Labour are getting no look in despite the Tories delivering 125k excess deaths in a year and putting taxes up quite significantly for individuals.
    Like PhilipThompson I don't give much weight to midterm polls (and we're not quite midterm) but it is still pretty remarkable even if the vaccine period is seeing a reversion to rally round the flag, as it were. Labour seemed to be edging closer not that many months ago, but it's an awkward time for Keir.

    I thought had the locals gone ahead last year it would have been very good for the Tories, and that the delay would see them suffer a lot. But not, comparitively, it might be a decent night.
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561

    Excellent header from @RochdalePioneers, with very little for me to disagree with. The harsh truth facing Labour is that for the party to win, its activists, intellectuals, and most passionate supporters have to lose.

    Also, the Conservatives have to cock up monumentally and unmistakably.

    Oh and Labour have to get a leader with charisma.
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    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,906
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I must confess I wouldn't have expected it Mario Draghi, of all the EU leaders, to be the one going mediaeval on vaccine manufacturers: During a phone call with European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen on Wednesday, Mr Draghi said it was necessary to "suffocate" big pharmaceutical companies to force them to respect the agreed delivery terms..

    The number of senior politicians who seem to have lost their minds recently beggars belief. Are they trying to drive pharmaceutical companies out of the EU?

    It does seem that way. We've got a conveniently timed 130% superdeduction on capital investment as well. Kwasi, Liz and Rishi need to get on the phone to every major pharma company today.
    Early days but potentially that 130% was a masterstroke.
    1.3 x 19% is just under 25%

    Is the super-deduction just an attempt to avoid investment being delayed until the tax rise kicks in, when there will be a higher rate to offset? Albeit that there isn't currently a blanket 100% deduction at present.
    No, it means that a company that invests £10m will get £13m off their tax bill. It's a 30% capital investment credit at the moment it's 25% I think. This is a step change for capital investment in the UK and it needs to be made permanent.
    Lets say I invest £10m now and don't take it as profit. Tax saving: £1.9m
    Lets say I invest £10m in 2 years time when the tax rate is 25%. Tax saving: £2.5m

    Factor: roughly 1.3

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,751
    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimT said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Nigelb said:

    I posted this at the end of the last thread.
    It's not of any immediate alarm, but it's another indication of why we need to get the pandemic ended through vaccination as quickly as possible.

    https://twitter.com/Bergthalerlab/status/1367508214233841669

    I wonder if we'll all have to have regular booster jabs every 12 months or so to take account of the variants. A little bit like how they tweak to the Flu jab every year?
    NigelB: I just saw another paper, which you may have posted, where some of the co-authors are from Novavax, which implied the opposite - that the T-cell response was very hardy to viral mutation as they recognize a larger number of epitopes than do antibodies.

    Do you think the results of this study might, to some extent, be an artifact of doing a cell-free study, and looking at epitopes individually (if that is what they did), rather than at the total in vivo T-cell response?
    Absolutely - it's less likely to happen or be of significance than the antibody evasion demonstrated.
    I think the authors make the same point.
    It's only demonstrating that T-cell evasion can happen, not that it will.

    ...The majority of nonsynonymous mutations found in the validated CTL escapes had not reached fixation, i.e., were present at frequencies between 0.02 and 0.42 (Fig. 1B). This could be explained by the shorter duration of infection with SARS-CoV-2 compared to HIV or HCV. It may also reflect on the degree to which HLA polymorphism affects viral spreading within human populations. The impact of single anchor residue substitutions on the response of CD4+ T cells is still unclear.

    Our findings do not rule out that substitutions of residues facing the cognate T cell receptor may give rise to the emergence of CTL neoepitopes. Of note, we could show for the YLQ epitope that T cell clones that expanded in vitro in the presence of mutant peptides were identical to those expanded in response to the wild type peptide, suggesting a similar if not identical structural basis underlying TCR-epitope engagement.

    This study does not allow direct conclusions to be drawn concerning potential selection pressures which shape the mutational landscape of CD8+ T cell epitopes. This would invariably involve accounting for the HLA genotype of all individuals from whom SARS-CoV-2 genomes were sequenced. Moreover, how CTL escape mutations are maintained during transmission between individuals with differing HLA subtypes and how viruses carrying epitope mutations affect disease severity requires further investigation....
    Thanks for the clarification on that. I thought that was the case but I lack the scientific training to be sure!
    You and I both. :smile:
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    The EU? Commitment to free trade? What alternative reality have I woken up into?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,510
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Actually, I like to think if we were still in the EU we would indeed have persuaded them to behave in a more reasonable way, so I suppose I agree with Layla Moran on this.
    But the argument makes no sense when it was being argued, and I accept I was one of them, that the UK going it alone would end up with a worse outcome than the EU on this issue.

    She was surely one of the people outraged about our lack of involvement in the EU scheme on the basis we would face a worse outcome, therefore if she did argue that, her reasoning was that the UK was worse at such negotiations.

    Accordingly, how can it be subsequently argued to also believe we would have improved their response?
    This is the argument she was making at the time.
    https://twitter.com/LaylaMoran/status/1279079605916311553
    As expected - thus to argue about our expectise helping is deeply insincere, when she argued we needed to be in to save us from our own incompetence (granted we have plenty).

    Now, maybe she has changed her mind on that given how things have turned out. But given how confident she was that they would correct things for us, how can she believe the reverse would happened?

    She doesn't.
    It has also become clear what position was being offered to the UK in the EU vaccine procurement - provide money and have no say about

    - which vaccines were selected
    - where they would be produced
    - when they would arrive

    Not sure how, if we had joined, the outcome would have been any different.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Oh gawd, we are going to be stuck Boris for another 8 years aren't we.....

    I keep telling people, but they don't believe...
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898
    It's not really a surprise though - the dream of the EU was always different to the reality. Taken as a whole I still believe in my volte-face that long term it would have been better to remain, but it is losing some moral high ground, so the smugness of some of its commissioners and spokespeople really should be dialled back.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,751
    .
    eek said:

    Pfizer’s jab is pricey and must be stored in freezers. In contrast, AstraZeneca’s is cheap and needs only normal refrigeration. If the AstraZeneca vaccine also matches Pfizer’s efficacy, which now appears likely, it could play a leading role in ending the pandemic—so long as people do not reject it based on ill-founded swipes from the likes of Mr Macron.

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/03/06/new-data-show-that-leading-covid-19-vaccines-have-similarly-high-efficacy

    pfizer's jab may not actually require those expensive freezers - that's one of the things they are currently trialing now they have more time.
    It still needs freezers, even if only conventional commercial ones. That imposes significant limits on where it can be used.
    There's also a large cost differential, which matters a lot on a global scale.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,751
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    How do you give a first dose to more than 100% of a cohort ?

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1367487132416290819

    People getting older and ONS population stats being out of date.
    I'm not looking for boring answers. :smile:
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    MaxPB said:

    Mental. I'm honestly shocked that Labour are getting no look in despite the Tories delivering 125k excess deaths in a year and putting taxes up quite significantly for individuals.
    The Tories did not deliver 125k excess deaths.
    They did and they havent finished yet

    World beating death rates down to Tory mismanagement of the crisis and 10 years of Austerity meaning our infrastructure going into it was terrible

    Needs to be said every day like Labours recession

    Theres an idea
    You are seriously suggesting zero deaths was a possibility?
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,013
    In shocking news, the Spectator and Daily Express don't like the EU. What next, the Spectator not hiring avowed anti-Semites as social diarists?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131
    Looking ahead to the local elections, if you use that YouGov poll as the result (I know, but bear with me), then:

    compared to 2016, the Conservatives would have a 1% swing from Labour and a 9% swing from the LibDems

    compared to 2017, the Conservatives would have a 7% swing from Labour and a 12% swing from the LibDems

    Both Sir Ed and Sir Keir may want to look away.

    Of course, as more people get jabbed, as the country opens up, as Covid recedes by early May, these numbers may understate the Conservative lead....
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898
    I don't think that means a great deal about its actual worth, but it does demonstrate Rishi has done a good political job in selling it.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,862
    Pagan2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Thank you Rochdale Pioneers for this piece.

    In my view the clue is in the name: Labour.

    It’s about jobs, meaningful jobs.
    And support from state services that allow all to live in dignity.

    Rishi’s budget actually continues the austerity of the 2010s, and doesn’t really do anything for jobs with the exception of the corporate investment subsidy.

    Keir does get this I think, if my scanning of his budget response is fair - but he hasn’t figured out how to communicate that properly to the public in a compelling way.

    Austerity is not quite the word for a Conservative government whose expenditure is £850 bn, a huge proportion of which is borrowed, and vast sums of which are redistributed to less well off people.



    Austerity to public services.
    Austerity in wage growth.
    Private sector wages won't grow as long as employers have an effectively infinite labour pool to fish in. I am a senior software engineer and can tell you when you go job hunting the wages companies offer now are on par with the wages they offered in 2002 outside of a couple of very niche specialities.

    It used to be if your company decided against payrises then you could get one by changing job. No longer true anymore at least in my role. Think on that....I currently earn the same amount as I did in 2002. So do most of my colleagues. Yet we are constantly being told there is a shortage of it workers.

    The only people I know who work in the private sector that have seen payrises are all minimum wage workers due to minimum wage being uprated.

    Brexit for many was a chance to cut down the size of the labour pool. It was remainer Rose after all that said we should remain in the eu else wages might rise
    No, I disagree.
    The reason wages haven’t risen are a combination of -

    Globalisation, including offshoring
    A bias toward capital and away from labour
    The flourishing of zero-contract gig workers
    Stalled productivity growth in corporate UK

    As far as I am concerned, European immigration was actually a great boost for U.K. productivity and actually tended to increase wages for native born employees.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898

    Oh gawd, we are going to be stuck Boris for another 8 years aren't we.....

    Probably only another six or seven. He could hand over to Sunak before the 2028 or 2029 election.
    I know it is always said, but really, who would want to be the one taking over 18 years into power?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131

    MaxPB said:

    Mental. I'm honestly shocked that Labour are getting no look in despite the Tories delivering 125k excess deaths in a year and putting taxes up quite significantly for individuals.
    The Tories did not deliver 125k excess deaths.
    They did and they havent finished yet

    World beating death rates down to Tory mismanagement of the crisis and 10 years of Austerity meaning our infrastructure going into it was terrible

    Needs to be said every day like Labours recession

    Theres an idea
    On the other side of the ledger, there have been massively fewer flu deaths. Do they get a credit for them, in your blame game?

    Thought not.
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    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited March 2021
    Getting big business - instead of individuals and families alone - to share the burden of closing the deficit looks like a political masterstroke. As some of us may have observed yesterday.
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,013

    Looking ahead to the local elections, if you use that YouGov poll as the result (I know, but bear with me), then:

    compared to 2016, the Conservatives would have a 1% swing from Labour and a 9% swing from the LibDems

    compared to 2017, the Conservatives would have a 7% swing from Labour and a 12% swing from the LibDems

    Both Sir Ed and Sir Keir may want to look away.

    Of course, as more people get jabbed, as the country opens up, as Covid recedes by early May, these numbers may understate the Conservative lead....

    You could easily see those numbers repeated at a GE, assuming some people get sick of bullying/contracts sleaze but others appreciate the end of lockdown. Probably a Lib Dem wipeout, Greens with a couple of seats, and fifty (?) new Conservative MPs deep in Labour territory in England.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131
    kle4 said:

    Oh gawd, we are going to be stuck Boris for another 8 years aren't we.....

    Probably only another six or seven. He could hand over to Sunak before the 2028 or 2029 election.
    I know it is always said, but really, who would want to be the one taking over 18 years into power?
    The first five were Coalition.

    They don't count.

    And the May years were a sort of Coalition with the DUP. They don't count.

    We have only had a little over 3 years of Conservative majority Govt. since those 13 years of Labour.
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