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The great Trump problem for the Republicans – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,168
edited March 2021 in General
The great Trump problem for the Republicans – politicalbetting.com

GUARDIAN EDITORIAL: Trump is unpopular enough to lose but popular enough to run in 2024 #TomorrowsPapersToday pic.twitter.com/WcA6Ba4SEf

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Comments

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    Trump AND Biden will be down and out by 2024!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    GIN1138 said:

    Trump AND Biden will be down and out by 2024!

    Yep, Next.
  • Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,764
    GIN1138 said:

    Trump AND Biden will be down and out by 2024!

    I don't think so.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,397

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    You what?

    Although there is a certain sort of bully who insists on that sort of thing. I seem to remember Robert Maxwell had a dislike for paper notes
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,101
    On present polling Trump is popular enough within the GOP to remain Kingmaker within the party and run again if he chooses in 2024 but not popular enough with the electorate as a whole in the US to win.

    If however by 2024 the Biden-Harris administration is unpopular and with an approval rating well below 50% he may not only run and win the nomination, he could win the general election too
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,764

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    A "cold weather banana republic" as Rawnsley described it yesterday.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    Gosh.

    Remember Mystic Gin predicted a fall from grace for Nicola in 2021 on NYE! ;)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    She'll have A Clear Conscience.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNKjShmHw7s
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,019
    Andy_JS said:
    Must be a slow news day as they've been doing this for months.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    What are the UK government procedures for retaining notes of such meetings ?

    In the US there’s a legal obligation to retain such written records - what are the rules here ?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    HYUFD said:

    On present polling Trump is popular enough within the GOP to remain Kingmaker within the party and run again if he chooses in 2024 but not popular enough with the electorate as a whole in the US to win.

    If however by 2024 the Biden-Harris administration is unpopular and with an approval rating well below 50% he may not only run and win the nomination, he could win the general election too

    So basically you're saying that if the polls say he could win, he could win.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,725

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    She'll have A Clear Conscience.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNKjShmHw7s
    That is shocking.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    HYUFD said:

    On present polling Trump is popular enough within the GOP to remain Kingmaker within the party and run again if he chooses in 2024 but not popular enough with the electorate as a whole in the US to win.

    If however by 2024 the Biden-Harris administration is unpopular and with an approval rating well below 50% he may not only run and win the nomination, he could win the general election too

    I should imagine Biden/Harris will miraculously put on several points if Trump is the opponent. Regardless of their popularity.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    Very handy if anyone needed a sacrificial lamb for some reason.

    Opening paragraph is oddly equivocal though

    SCOTLAND’S top civil servant may have destroyed notes of a meeting with Nicola Sturgeon linked to the Alex Salmond probe, documents obtained by The Scottish Sun suggest
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1366448131496361986?s=20


    So it had to be gouged out of him, and he only did it at the last minute, to save his skin. Do the SNP realise how bad this looks?!

    The whole thing is unbelievable and if the SNP hold onto their popularity they will be very lucky
    The SNP are the party of independence. Lots and lots and lots of people want independence. So they'll keep voting for the SNP regardless of the circumstances.

    This is uncontroversial. So long as the core policy remains in place they can get away with anything, and still scoop up at least 45% of the constituency vote.
    Time will tell but as has been pointed out a considerable number of SNP supporters were formerly labour and support the union, they just thought the SNP would govern Scotland better

    It is now uncertain just how many of these supporters will stay will the SNP and as I have said before, some of my Scots family members are SNP supporters but also pro the Union
    Yes, after many years of appearing sensible and competent compared to Westminster, suddenly the SNP look hugely inept, riven with internal wars, and incapable of being honest. This may make voters scrutinise the rest of their record, and think Hmmm, because their record is not very good

    That's the big damage from Salmondgate. It removes the SNP's and Sturgeon's supposed USP: calm and measured governance.
    Tories have an interesting line to tread on all this. They need to damage the SNP to the extent that it really hurts independence. But not to the extent that it trashes the SNP so that Labour can start getting material numbers of Westminster seats. A seriously wounded Sturgeon still in place is probably Boris's best outcome.
    Any true Tory would put Britain before party-politics and prefer to see Scotland returning Labour MPs than SNP MPs.
    Our electoral system encourages broad coalitions within the same party, rather than governing coalitions between parties. Whether you think FPTP is any good or not, that is one of its effects.

    There is no reason to suppose that all Conservatives, or Conservative voters, are necessarily devout Unionists.

    After all, there's rather a lot to like for the English right if the Union collapses. The departure of Scotland kicks away Labour's Zimmer frame. Much is made of how the Scottish Tories saved Theresa May's bacon in 2017, but if Scotland had returned no MPs at all then even she would've commanded an outright majority.
    The UK would also risk its place as a permanent member on the UN Security Council if it broke up and it would project a weaker image of the rUK internationally. No genuine Tory would ever back Scottish independence (plus Labour would still have won a majority in England and Wales in 1997, 2001 and 2005 anyway)
    Are the voters really that bothered about the Security Council seat? What use is it?

    Tony Blair's Labour Party was a very different beast to that which came within a hair's breadth of inflicting Jeremy Corbyn upon us. There is a perfectly plausible argument to be advanced that the end of the Union with (predominantly left-wing) Scotland is a price well worth paying, if it is certain or near certain to permanently reduce the hard left to a harmless rump. It might also, from a certain point of view, be a sad state of affairs, and you might dislike the whole idea intensely, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a certain logic to the position.

    Besides, Labour carefully crafted devolution to play to its political advantage, or what ultimately transpired to be a shockingly complacent and naive interpretation thereof. It would serve the party right if it were ultimately to be ruined by the project.
    I don't care what the voters views on it are, they are mostly more interested in domestic policy but the fact is our permanent membership of it is a key component of our power and prestige internationally, something it is the role of the Conservative and Unionist Party to preserve.

    Wilson also would have won in England in 1966 and England and Wales in 1964 and October 1974 and Attlee would have won in England alone in 1945 and England and Wales in 1950 too, it would be an unforgiveable folly for any Tory leader to lose Scotland, let alone advocate for it.

    That does not mean an English Parliament or regional assemblies cannot be considered too
    If Scotland goes independent England would claim to be the successor to the United Kingdom and get the permanent security council seat.

    Just as Russia already did the same thing when the USSR broke up. Russia was not the original permanent nation, the USSR was and the USSR no longer exists.

    Westminster would ensure this is resolved in the UN before Scotland goes independent and the UK has the right to veto any decision other than recognising England as the successor nation.
    Russia alone still had a population of over 100 million and one of the largest militaries in the world, England alone would not. If the UK broke up other nations like Japan, Germany and Brazil and India would use that as an excuse to press their case to take the UK's place amongst the other P5 members and in the General Assembly
    And London would listen to their case and veto it.

    You don't understand how this works, do you?
    If the UK breaks up the UK would no longer have the original seat as first granted to veto, a successor state would have to be chosen and England alone would have much less claim to it than Russia had in 1991 when its request to be treated as the successor state to the USSR on the UN security council was met without objection.
    Do you think this happens overnight in a vaccuum. There's a vote, the results are counted and the next day the UK ceases to exist. 🙄

    If the UK were to break up democratically it wouldn't happen overnight, it would be negotiated and agreed. Part of that agreement demanded by London would include recognising England as the successor state so that England gets the UNSC seat etc - the SNP don't want or expect that for themselves.

    Russia was accepted as continuity successor for the USSR as it was the logical successor and had half the population.

    England would be continuity successor for the UK as it is the logical successor and has 84% of the population.
    No, the UK would not cease to exist. Any more than it ceased to exist with the secession of Ireland in 1949.

    It is frustrating that people cannot grasp this basic point. Scotland would be a new country, not one of two successor states.
    The United Kingdom was created after the Union of England and Scotland in 1707, arguably it would cease to exist, being replaced by England and Wales and maybe Northern Ireland as the successor state
    No it wasn’t. That created the Kingdom of Great Britain. It was 1801 and the union with Ireland that created the United Kingdom.

    Honestly, call yourself an historian...this is so basic even the CIA gets it right. Heck, even Wikipedia does.
    Ireland left the Union 100 years, ago, so that Kingdom is no longer part of the UK, if Scotland also left which united the Kingdom of Scotland with the Kingdom of England (which includes Wales) there would be no Kingdoms left to unite as Wales is merely a Principality not a Kingdom and Northern Ireland is merely a province not a Kingdom either.
    Hyufd, I think you will find the kingdom of Ireland was redesignated the kingdom of Northern Ireland in 1927 and is still in being.

    It would be easier for you if you just accepted you were wrong and moved on, because you are and you are looking increasingly absurd.
    No, it was renamed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland rather than the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

    Northern Ireland however did not become a Kingdom in its own right, it is merely a province, the only Kingdoms left in the UK after Ireland's departure are the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Kingdom of England
    Northern Ireland is not a province. There are four provinces in Ireland: Ulster, Leinster, Connacht and (the best) Munster. None are coterminous with Northern Ireland.
    Poor old Meath gets left out.
    That's part of Leinster!
    Next you'll be telling me there's no Breifne either.

    All these poor overlooked overkingdoms.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    Nigelb said:

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    What are the UK government procedures for retaining notes of such meetings ?

    In the US there’s a legal obligation to retain such written records - what are the rules here ?
    What Boris says they are.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    Why wiping out flu this year may not have been a good thing after all.

    "Why the next flu season may be worse than ever: There have been barely any cases this winter thanks to Covid restrictions. But now experts fear this will leave us dangerously exposed"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9314063/Why-flu-season-worse-Experts-fear-year-leave-exposed.html
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,692
    Nigelb said:

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    What are the UK government procedures for retaining notes of such meetings ?

    In the US there’s a legal obligation to retain such written records - what are the rules here ?
    They're not short of shredders.

    image
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    HYUFD said:

    On present polling Trump is popular enough within the GOP to remain Kingmaker within the party and run again if he chooses in 2024 but not popular enough with the electorate as a whole in the US to win.

    If however by 2024 the Biden-Harris administration is unpopular and with an approval rating well below 50% he may not only run and win the nomination, he could win the general election too

    Trump remains enough support to run in 2024.

    However, I'm not convinced that a 78 year old Trump will be more appealing to voters than the 74 year old one was. And parties in the midst of a civil war are rarely attractive to voters.

    My working assumption is that the Republicans are back on the Trump train for now, but this plays badly in 2022, and that they fail to retake the House and fall back in the Senate.

    At this point, Trump loyalists like Hawley stab him in the back by saying "thanks for your service Donald but it's time we took over..."

    In 2022, a Trumpesque but not Trump Republican stands a good chance. HOWEVER, Trump is not a team player. He has shown zero desire to be kingmaker and every desire to be king. So who knows.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    https://twitter.com/HTScotPol/status/1034369196459732992?s=20
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,659
    edited March 2021
    Nigelb said:

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    What are the UK government procedures for retaining notes of such meetings ?

    In the US there’s a legal obligation to retain such written records - what are the rules here ?
    I believe the rule is that retention should happen for at least 7 years since the last update in a record/journal etc, but there's a list of things that need to be kept for National Archives records.

    There's also this.

    Processes must be in place to make sure that records pending audit, litigation or investigation are not destroyed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210
    Andy_JS said:

    Why wiping out flu this year may not have been a good thing after all.

    "Why the next flu season may be worse than ever: There have been barely any cases this winter thanks to Covid restrictions. But now experts fear this will leave us dangerously exposed"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9314063/Why-flu-season-worse-Experts-fear-year-leave-exposed.html

    Only if we didn’t get vaccinated...
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    kle4 said:

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    Very handy if anyone needed a sacrificial lamb for some reason.

    Opening paragraph is oddly equivocal though

    SCOTLAND’S top civil servant may have destroyed notes of a meeting with Nicola Sturgeon linked to the Alex Salmond probe, documents obtained by The Scottish Sun suggest
    It is completely implausible that a civil servant would do this.

    If she really did, then she needs to go on the grounds of gross incompetence.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,706
    Andy_JS said:

    Why wiping out flu this year may not have been a good thing after all.

    "Why the next flu season may be worse than ever: There have been barely any cases this winter thanks to Covid restrictions. But now experts fear this will leave us dangerously exposed"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9314063/Why-flu-season-worse-Experts-fear-year-leave-exposed.html

    Is that them getting the lockdown rationale in early
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    "Police handcuff and arrest man walking with his wife because he refused to give his details when he was stopped 22 miles from home

    Radek Kotlarek was on a walk with his wife and son when they were stopped
    Officers asked them why they were not at home and demanded personal details
    Radek refused and he was then handcuffed and arrested by the police officers "

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9313353/Outrage-police-handcuff-ARREST-man-walking-wife.html
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    She'll have A Clear Conscience.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNKjShmHw7s
    That is shocking.
    Agreed - Nigel Hawthorn was shockingly good, it gets me every time. Man was as genius.
  • A "cold weather banana republic" as Rawnsley described it yesterday.

    That's being generous. Some banana republics prosecute members of corrupt regimes, in Scotland we re-elect them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Andy_JS said:

    "Police handcuff and arrest man walking with his wife because he refused to give his details when he was stopped 22 miles from home

    Radek Kotlarek was on a walk with his wife and son when they were stopped
    Officers asked them why they were not at home and demanded personal details
    Radek refused and he was then handcuffed and arrested by the police officers "

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9313353/Outrage-police-handcuff-ARREST-man-walking-wife.html

    Not exactly a proportional response.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    Kamala V Ivanka would be entertaining in 2024! :d
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    This is why sofa government is the only way to go, no need for records.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited March 2021
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1366448131496361986?s=20


    So it had to be gouged out of him, and he only did it at the last minute, to save his skin. Do the SNP realise how bad this looks?!

    The whole thing is unbelievable and if the SNP hold onto their popularity they will be very lucky
    The SNP are the party of independence. Lots and lots and lots of people want independence. So they'll keep voting for the SNP regardless of the circumstances.

    This is uncontroversial. So long as the core policy remains in place they can get away with anything, and still scoop up at least 45% of the constituency vote.
    Time will tell but as has been pointed out a considerable number of SNP supporters were formerly labour and support the union, they just thought the SNP would govern Scotland better

    It is now uncertain just how many of these supporters will stay will the SNP and as I have said before, some of my Scots family members are SNP supporters but also pro the Union
    Yes, after many years of appearing sensible and competent compared to Westminster, suddenly the SNP look hugely inept, riven with internal wars, and incapable of being honest. This may make voters scrutinise the rest of their record, and think Hmmm, because their record is not very good

    That's the big damage from Salmondgate. It removes the SNP's and Sturgeon's supposed USP: calm and measured governance.
    Tories have an interesting line to tread on all this. They need to damage the SNP to the extent that it really hurts independence. But not to the extent that it trashes the SNP so that Labour can start getting material numbers of Westminster seats. A seriously wounded Sturgeon still in place is probably Boris's best outcome.
    Any true Tory would put Britain before party-politics and prefer to see Scotland returning Labour MPs than SNP MPs.
    Our electoral system encourages broad coalitions within the same party, rather than governing coalitions between parties. Whether you think FPTP is any good or not, that is one of its effects.

    There is no reason to suppose that all Conservatives, or Conservative voters, are necessarily devout Unionists.

    After all, there's rather a lot to like for the English right if the Union collapses. The departure of Scotland kicks away Labour's Zimmer frame. Much is made of how the Scottish Tories saved Theresa May's bacon in 2017, but if Scotland had returned no MPs at all then even she would've commanded an outright majority.
    The UK would also risk its place as a permanent member on the UN Security Council if it broke up and it would project a weaker image of the rUK internationally. No genuine Tory would ever back Scottish independence (plus Labour would still have won a majority in England and Wales in 1997, 2001 and 2005 anyway)
    Are the voters really that bothered about the Security Council seat? What use is it?

    Tony Blair's Labour Party was a very different beast to that which came within a hair's breadth of inflicting Jeremy Corbyn upon us. There is a perfectly plausible argument to be advanced that the end of the Union with (predominantly left-wing) Scotland is a price well worth paying, if it is certain or near certain to permanently reduce the hard left to a harmless rump. It might also, from a certain point of view, be a sad state of affairs, and you might dislike the whole idea intensely, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a certain logic to the position.

    Besides, Labour carefully crafted devolution to play to its political advantage, or what ultimately transpired to be a shockingly complacent and naive interpretation thereof. It would serve the party right if it were ultimately to be ruined by the project.
    I don't care what the voters views on it are, they are mostly more interested in domestic policy but the fact is our permanent membership of it is a key component of our power and prestige internationally, something it is the role of the Conservative and Unionist Party to preserve.

    Wilson also would have won in England in 1966 and England and Wales in 1964 and October 1974 and Attlee would have won in England alone in 1945 and England and Wales in 1950 too, it would be an unforgiveable folly for any Tory leader to lose Scotland, let alone advocate for it.

    That does not mean an English Parliament or regional assemblies cannot be considered too
    If Scotland goes independent England would claim to be the successor to the United Kingdom and get the permanent security council seat.

    Just as Russia already did the same thing when the USSR broke up. Russia was not the original permanent nation, the USSR was and the USSR no longer exists.

    Westminster would ensure this is resolved in the UN before Scotland goes independent and the UK has the right to veto any decision other than recognising England as the successor nation.
    Russia alone still had a population of over 100 million and one of the largest militaries in the world, England alone would not. If the UK broke up other nations like Japan, Germany and Brazil and India would use that as an excuse to press their case to take the UK's place amongst the other P5 members and in the General Assembly
    And London would listen to their case and veto it.

    You don't understand how this works, do you?
    If the UK breaks up the UK would no longer have the original seat as first granted to veto, a successor state would have to be chosen and England alone would have much less claim to it than Russia had in 1991 when its request to be treated as the successor state to the USSR on the UN security council was met without objection.
    Do you think this happens overnight in a vaccuum. There's a vote, the results are counted and the next day the UK ceases to exist. 🙄

    If the UK were to break up democratically it wouldn't happen overnight, it would be negotiated and agreed. Part of that agreement demanded by London would include recognising England as the successor state so that England gets the UNSC seat etc - the SNP don't want or expect that for themselves.

    Russia was accepted as continuity successor for the USSR as it was the logical successor and had half the population.

    England would be continuity successor for the UK as it is the logical successor and has 84% of the population.
    No, the UK would not cease to exist. Any more than it ceased to exist with the secession of Ireland in 1949.

    It is frustrating that people cannot grasp this basic point. Scotland would be a new country, not one of two successor states.
    The United Kingdom was created after the Union of England and Scotland in 1707, arguably it would cease to exist, being replaced by England and Wales and maybe Northern Ireland as the successor state
    No it wasn’t. That created the Kingdom of Great Britain. It was 1801 and the union with Ireland that created the United Kingdom.

    Honestly, call yourself an historian...this is so basic even the CIA gets it right. Heck, even Wikipedia does.
    Ireland left the Union 100 years, ago, so that Kingdom is no longer part of the UK, if Scotland also left which united the Kingdom of Scotland with the Kingdom of England (which includes Wales) there would be no Kingdoms left to unite as Wales is merely a Principality not a Kingdom and Northern Ireland is merely a province not a Kingdom either.
    Hyufd, I think you will find the kingdom of Ireland was redesignated the kingdom of Northern Ireland in 1927 and is still in being.

    It would be easier for you if you just accepted you were wrong and moved on, because you are and you are looking increasingly absurd.
    No, it was renamed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland rather than the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

    Northern Ireland however did not become a Kingdom in its own right, it is merely a province, the only Kingdoms left in the UK after Ireland's departure are the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Kingdom of England
    Northern Ireland is not a province. There are four provinces in Ireland: Ulster, Leinster, Connacht and (the best) Munster. None are coterminous with Northern Ireland.
    Northern Ireland is not a country or a Kingdom, the closest it is to a definition is a province or region
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom.
    Scotland is not a Kingdom.
    Wales is not a Kingdom.
    England is not a Kingdom.

    Great Britain and Northern Ireland is one United Kingdom.
    Which only came to being by uniting the Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, if only England was left there would thus be no United Kingdom left.
    The Kingdom of Northern Ireland??
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom
    Nor is England. 🤦‍♂️

    Nor is Scotland. 🤦‍♂️
    They are, just they have united together
    It's fascinating you say that, when you whole argument on the UN seat seems to be predicated on the assertion that uniting/disuniting fundamentally changes things and one cannot claim the entity that existed before is the same as the one after. And yet here uniting two kingdoms doesn't mean anything.
    If Scotland left that would be disuniting the UK, there would no longer be that union of the 2 kingdoms anymore and the UK of GB and NI that got the seat in 1945 would no longer exist
    Pick up a history book.

    There is no union of 2 kingdoms already. The 2 kingdoms were dissolved over 300 years ago.

    The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain (one single kingdom in the 18th century) and Northern Ireland anyway, Scotland doesn't enter into it.
    The 2 kingdoms were dissolved into 1 Kingdom which would cease to exist if Scotland left it, so the UK would no longer exist, with the Kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland which made up the UK with England no longer part of it.

    Same as England would cease to exist with Northumbria in the north of England, or Mercia in the Midlands or Wessex in the South chose to leave it
    No none of them would cease to exist. If Northumbria went independent the legacy state would be England.

    If Scotland goes independent the legacy state would be the United Kingdom.

    That's the way it works, unless there is no continuity state, but there would be.
    No it would not, if Northumbria went independent the legacy states would be Wessex and Mercia, there would no longer be an England.

    If Scotland went independent the legacy state would be England, Wales and NI, there would no longer be a UK
    You can not be serious!

    Where in the law are Wessex and Mercia defined as legacy states? Probably in the same place as the "kingdom of England" is defined. 🙄

    If Northern Ireland went there'd be no UK, not that it matters since GB would be the continuity of the UK. If Scotland goes the name might remain UK.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,263
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Police handcuff and arrest man walking with his wife because he refused to give his details when he was stopped 22 miles from home

    Radek Kotlarek was on a walk with his wife and son when they were stopped
    Officers asked them why they were not at home and demanded personal details
    Radek refused and he was then handcuffed and arrested by the police officers "

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9313353/Outrage-police-handcuff-ARREST-man-walking-wife.html

    Not exactly a proportional response.
    It was even worse than that:

    https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/businessman-strip-searched-cops-after-19938639
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    Since we've been discussing AI over the last few days:

    "Deepfake videos of Tom Cruise watched by millions" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/deepfake-videos-of-tom-cruise-watched-by-millions-tr8lkmfdk
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,101
    edited March 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1366448131496361986?s=20


    So it had to be gouged out of him, and he only did it at the last minute, to save his skin. Do the SNP realise how bad this looks?!

    The whole thing is unbelievable and if the SNP hold onto their popularity they will be very lucky
    The SNP are the party of independence. Lots and lots and lots of people want independence. So they'll keep voting for the SNP regardless of the circumstances.

    This is uncontroversial. So long as the core policy remains in place they can get away with anything, and still scoop up at least 45% of the constituency vote.
    Time will tell but as has been pointed out a considerable number of SNP supporters were formerly labour and support the union, they just thought the SNP would govern Scotland better

    It is now uncertain just how many of these supporters will stay will the SNP and as I have said before, some of my Scots family members are SNP supporters but also pro the Union
    Yes, after many years of appearing sensible and competent compared to Westminster, suddenly the SNP look hugely inept, riven with internal wars, and incapable of being honest. This may make voters scrutinise the rest of their record, and think Hmmm, because their record is not very good

    That's the big damage from Salmondgate. It removes the SNP's and Sturgeon's supposed USP: calm and measured governance.
    Tories have an interesting line to tread on all this. They need to damage the SNP to the extent that it really hurts independence. But not to the extent that it trashes the SNP so that Labour can start getting material numbers of Westminster seats. A seriously wounded Sturgeon still in place is probably Boris's best outcome.
    Any true Tory would put Britain before party-politics and prefer to see Scotland returning Labour MPs than SNP MPs.
    Our electoral system encourages broad coalitions within the same party, rather than governing coalitions between parties. Whether you think FPTP is any good or not, that is one of its effects.

    There is no reason to suppose that all Conservatives, or Conservative voters, are necessarily devout Unionists.

    After all, there's rather a lot to like for the English right if the Union collapses. The departure of Scotland kicks away Labour's Zimmer frame. Much is made of how the Scottish Tories saved Theresa May's bacon in 2017, but if Scotland had returned no MPs at all then even she would've commanded an outright majority.
    The UK would also risk its place as a permanent member on the UN Security Council if it broke up and it would project a weaker image of the rUK internationally. No genuine Tory would ever back Scottish independence (plus Labour would still have won a majority in England and Wales in 1997, 2001 and 2005 anyway)
    Are the voters really that bothered about the Security Council seat? What use is it?

    Tony Blair's Labour Party was a very different beast to that which came within a hair's breadth of inflicting Jeremy Corbyn upon us. There is a perfectly plausible argument to be advanced that the end of the Union with (predominantly left-wing) Scotland is a price well worth paying, if it is certain or near certain to permanently reduce the hard left to a harmless rump. It might also, from a certain point of view, be a sad state of affairs, and you might dislike the whole idea intensely, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a certain logic to the position.

    Besides, Labour carefully crafted devolution to play to its political advantage, or what ultimately transpired to be a shockingly complacent and naive interpretation thereof. It would serve the party right if it were ultimately to be ruined by the project.
    I don't care what the voters views on it are, they are mostly more interested in domestic policy but the fact is our permanent membership of it is a key component of our power and prestige internationally, something it is the role of the Conservative and Unionist Party to preserve.

    Wilson also would have won in England in 1966 and England and Wales in 1964 and October 1974 and Attlee would have won in England alone in 1945 and England and Wales in 1950 too, it would be an unforgiveable folly for any Tory leader to lose Scotland, let alone advocate for it.

    That does not mean an English Parliament or regional assemblies cannot be considered too
    If Scotland goes independent England would claim to be the successor to the United Kingdom and get the permanent security council seat.

    Just as Russia already did the same thing when the USSR broke up. Russia was not the original permanent nation, the USSR was and the USSR no longer exists.

    Westminster would ensure this is resolved in the UN before Scotland goes independent and the UK has the right to veto any decision other than recognising England as the successor nation.
    Russia alone still had a population of over 100 million and one of the largest militaries in the world, England alone would not. If the UK broke up other nations like Japan, Germany and Brazil and India would use that as an excuse to press their case to take the UK's place amongst the other P5 members and in the General Assembly
    And London would listen to their case and veto it.

    You don't understand how this works, do you?
    If the UK breaks up the UK would no longer have the original seat as first granted to veto, a successor state would have to be chosen and England alone would have much less claim to it than Russia had in 1991 when its request to be treated as the successor state to the USSR on the UN security council was met without objection.
    Do you think this happens overnight in a vaccuum. There's a vote, the results are counted and the next day the UK ceases to exist. 🙄

    If the UK were to break up democratically it wouldn't happen overnight, it would be negotiated and agreed. Part of that agreement demanded by London would include recognising England as the successor state so that England gets the UNSC seat etc - the SNP don't want or expect that for themselves.

    Russia was accepted as continuity successor for the USSR as it was the logical successor and had half the population.

    England would be continuity successor for the UK as it is the logical successor and has 84% of the population.
    No, the UK would not cease to exist. Any more than it ceased to exist with the secession of Ireland in 1949.

    It is frustrating that people cannot grasp this basic point. Scotland would be a new country, not one of two successor states.
    The United Kingdom was created after the Union of England and Scotland in 1707, arguably it would cease to exist, being replaced by England and Wales and maybe Northern Ireland as the successor state
    No it wasn’t. That created the Kingdom of Great Britain. It was 1801 and the union with Ireland that created the United Kingdom.

    Honestly, call yourself an historian...this is so basic even the CIA gets it right. Heck, even Wikipedia does.
    Ireland left the Union 100 years, ago, so that Kingdom is no longer part of the UK, if Scotland also left which united the Kingdom of Scotland with the Kingdom of England (which includes Wales) there would be no Kingdoms left to unite as Wales is merely a Principality not a Kingdom and Northern Ireland is merely a province not a Kingdom either.
    Hyufd, I think you will find the kingdom of Ireland was redesignated the kingdom of Northern Ireland in 1927 and is still in being.

    It would be easier for you if you just accepted you were wrong and moved on, because you are and you are looking increasingly absurd.
    No, it was renamed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland rather than the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

    Northern Ireland however did not become a Kingdom in its own right, it is merely a province, the only Kingdoms left in the UK after Ireland's departure are the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Kingdom of England
    Northern Ireland is not a province. There are four provinces in Ireland: Ulster, Leinster, Connacht and (the best) Munster. None are coterminous with Northern Ireland.
    Northern Ireland is not a country or a Kingdom, the closest it is to a definition is a province or region
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom.
    Scotland is not a Kingdom.
    Wales is not a Kingdom.
    England is not a Kingdom.

    Great Britain and Northern Ireland is one United Kingdom.
    Which only came to being by uniting the Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, if only England was left there would thus be no United Kingdom left.
    The Kingdom of Northern Ireland??
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom
    Nor is England. 🤦‍♂️

    Nor is Scotland. 🤦‍♂️
    They are, just they have united together
    It's fascinating you say that, when you whole argument on the UN seat seems to be predicated on the assertion that uniting/disuniting fundamentally changes things and one cannot claim the entity that existed before is the same as the one after. And yet here uniting two kingdoms doesn't mean anything.
    If Scotland left that would be disuniting the UK, there would no longer be that union of the 2 kingdoms anymore and the UK of GB and NI that got the seat in 1945 would no longer exist
    Pick up a history book.

    There is no union of 2 kingdoms already. The 2 kingdoms were dissolved over 300 years ago.

    The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain (one single kingdom in the 18th century) and Northern Ireland anyway, Scotland doesn't enter into it.
    The 2 kingdoms were dissolved into 1 Kingdom which would cease to exist if Scotland left it, so the UK would no longer exist, with the Kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland which made up the UK with England no longer part of it.

    Same as England would cease to exist with Northumbria in the north of England, or Mercia in the Midlands or Wessex in the South chose to leave it
    No none of them would cease to exist. If Northumbria went independent the legacy state would be England.

    If Scotland goes independent the legacy state would be the United Kingdom.

    That's the way it works, unless there is no continuity state, but there would be.
    No it would not, if Northumbria went independent the legacy states would be Wessex and Mercia, there would no longer be an England.

    If Scotland went independent the legacy state would be England, Wales and NI, there would no longer be a UK
    You can not be serious!

    Where in the law are Wessex and Mercia defined as legacy states? Probably in the same place as the "kingdom of England" is defined. 🙄

    If Northern Ireland went there'd be no UK, not that it matters since GB would be the continuity of the UK. If Scotland goes the name might remain UK.
    England was only created by the unity of Northumbria with Wessex and Mercia in 953, without that union by definition there no longer is an England.

    If Scotland left there would be no UK, Northern Ireland is a province not a Kingdom as Ireland was
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Andy_JS said:

    Since we've been discussing AI over the last few days:

    "Deepfake videos of Tom Cruise watched by millions" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/deepfake-videos-of-tom-cruise-watched-by-millions-tr8lkmfdk

    Deepfake news.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,101
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Interesting header; of course, the Scottish Greens (who are slated to do well, much better than the LDs) are also a pro-independence party, so it's not just a matter of the SNP.

    It is, if there is no change to the current SNP and Green majority at Holyrood then the SNP have zero grounds to claim a 'material change in circumstances' due to Brexit for indyref2 (given the 2016 election was before Brexit) and in 2011 it was only the SNP majority Salmond won that led to the 2014 independence referendum
    Not so. If the pro-Independence parties maintain a majority then the material change of Brexit is more than enough justification for a referendum. They will have both the electoral support and the material reason to call one. Whether they will win is another matter but that is for the Scottish people to decide. They deserve to be given that chance.
    No. There was already an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood even before the Brexit vote. If the SNP cannot even match the majority they got in 2011 before the 2014 referendum after Brexit there is absolutely zero grounds for any indyref2 and this Tory government will correctly and easily refuse a legal indyref2 and the 2014 'once in a generation' referendum will be respected.
    If you don't think Brexit was a material change then why have you spent the last 4 years so adamant that it should be enacted? You and I both know that the Unionist side campaigned strongly on the fact that the only way to secure the future of Scotland within the EU was to vote against independence and now that we have Brexited, against the wishes of a very clear majority of Scots, it is only right that the question should be revisited.

    You may not wish Scotland to become independent but to deny them that choice is thoroughly undemocratic.
    No it isn't, it is entirely in accordance with the Scotland Act 1998 in which Union matters are reserved to Westminster.

    We Tories have a majority at Westminster, have been clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote and will not therefore allow a legal indyref2.

    If it was such a material change anyway Yes would be over 62% given 62% of Scots voted Remain in 2016, not just 43% ie even less than it got in 2014

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1365978299265150978?s=20
    If we had relied upon opinion polls as an indicator of whether or not to hold a referendum there would never have been a Brexit vote.

    Why are you so afraid of an Independence vote if you are so sure the Unionists would win?
    Yes, referendums are unpredictable, which is even more reason to refuse an indyref2 and respect the 'once in a generation' 2014 vote.

    As a non Tory you are entitled to your opinion but we Tories have a majority and we will say a firm no and refuse a legal indyref2 as we are entitled to do under the Scotland Act 1998
    And thereby make the eventual loss in a referendum all the more likely.

    If you were to grant the referendum and fight a positive campaign on the benefits of unionism you may stand a chance. By refusing a referendum you just make it all the more likely that Scotland will eventually vote for independence.
    Rubbish, it is SNP appeasers like you who will give in to the SNP at every opportunity and allow them constant referendums until they win who make independence far more likely. 2014 was a once in a generation referendum, end of conversation, that means no legal indyref2 until at least 15 to 20 years after the first, much as Canada only allowed Quebec a second independence referendum in 1995, 15 years after the first in 1980. A gap that was long enough for the second referendum to settle the matter as a genuine generation had elapsed, even if No only narrowly won.
    For the umpteenth time Canada didn't "allow" a second referendum after fifteen years. The Quebec voters took fifteen years to elect another government that wanted another referendum. 🙄

    Had the Canadians tried to tell the Québécois they weren't allowed another referendum then the second referendum when held won have been won handsomely by Yes. Instead Yes lost it despite calling the referendum on their own timescale which closed the issue.
    No evidence for that at all, Catalonia of course remains part of Spain having had no referendums at all.

    Any indyref2 would require devomax etc to ensure a No victory and if the government is not ready to do that then pointless allowing it
    Again the Canadian federal government did not "allow" the Quebec referendum. The Quebec government had it on their own timeline that they chose themselves. Do you understand that point, yes or no?

    The UK is not Spain.
    No sane and stable democracy can allow TWO referendums on the same subject within less than ten years: that subject being the break up of the nation. By your recipe the Nats should be allowed to call a vote whenever they like, if they have a majority. Why not one a year until 2024? You can have no logical objection. Six every decade? Until they win? What is your logical problem with that? Or do they only get one per election? Where in the law books does it say that?

    You are making it up.

    Allowing endless referendums is a recipe for perpetual instability, and economic chaos. The right to allow referendums was reserved to Westminster, in the Scotland Act, precisely for this reason. A referendum on secession is so huge it must be a very rare event, approved by all four nations of the UK, through MPs representing their voters, in the Commons. This, of course, includes Scottish MPs. This is not England allowing a referendum, or not, this is the Union, the UK, democratically deciding in its supreme house of parliament.

    If Sturgeon wins her majority and calls for a new indyref, let Boris put it to the Commons for a Free Vote, and let the MPs of the entire United Kingdom decide. That is British democracy
    Following that argument, would you have supported the European Parliament voting to decide whther to allow Brexit?
    Had the UK government demanded a referendum on membership in 1982 just 7 years after voting to stay in the EEC in 1975 the EEC would have had a case to block it yes
    Are you really saying that if the British people had voted in 1983 for a party with an explicit manifesto promise to leave the EU, that should just be ignored becase of the earlier referendum?
    Until another referendum had been held after a generation had elapsed since 1975, as it had by 2016, yes
    There's an old saying that no Parliament may bind its successors.

    Your view seems to be that one electorate can bind another.

    Let's go with a ridiculous example. In 2024, the LibDems win 70% of the popular vote and every seat in the House of Commons on a policy of having a referendum on EU membership.*

    In those circumstances, do we deny the electorate what they have voted for? Under what moral basis can the people of yesterday, deny the people of today the right to their own choices?

    * Note: this is not an actual prediction
    That is a different scenario as the UK would already have left the EU by that stage.

    The UK government however would have the final say on when a referendum should be allowed in terms of Scottish independence while it remains part of the UK
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1366448131496361986?s=20


    So it had to be gouged out of him, and he only did it at the last minute, to save his skin. Do the SNP realise how bad this looks?!

    The whole thing is unbelievable and if the SNP hold onto their popularity they will be very lucky
    The SNP are the party of independence. Lots and lots and lots of people want independence. So they'll keep voting for the SNP regardless of the circumstances.

    This is uncontroversial. So long as the core policy remains in place they can get away with anything, and still scoop up at least 45% of the constituency vote.
    Time will tell but as has been pointed out a considerable number of SNP supporters were formerly labour and support the union, they just thought the SNP would govern Scotland better

    It is now uncertain just how many of these supporters will stay will the SNP and as I have said before, some of my Scots family members are SNP supporters but also pro the Union
    Yes, after many years of appearing sensible and competent compared to Westminster, suddenly the SNP look hugely inept, riven with internal wars, and incapable of being honest. This may make voters scrutinise the rest of their record, and think Hmmm, because their record is not very good

    That's the big damage from Salmondgate. It removes the SNP's and Sturgeon's supposed USP: calm and measured governance.
    Tories have an interesting line to tread on all this. They need to damage the SNP to the extent that it really hurts independence. But not to the extent that it trashes the SNP so that Labour can start getting material numbers of Westminster seats. A seriously wounded Sturgeon still in place is probably Boris's best outcome.
    Any true Tory would put Britain before party-politics and prefer to see Scotland returning Labour MPs than SNP MPs.
    Our electoral system encourages broad coalitions within the same party, rather than governing coalitions between parties. Whether you think FPTP is any good or not, that is one of its effects.

    There is no reason to suppose that all Conservatives, or Conservative voters, are necessarily devout Unionists.

    After all, there's rather a lot to like for the English right if the Union collapses. The departure of Scotland kicks away Labour's Zimmer frame. Much is made of how the Scottish Tories saved Theresa May's bacon in 2017, but if Scotland had returned no MPs at all then even she would've commanded an outright majority.
    The UK would also risk its place as a permanent member on the UN Security Council if it broke up and it would project a weaker image of the rUK internationally. No genuine Tory would ever back Scottish independence (plus Labour would still have won a majority in England and Wales in 1997, 2001 and 2005 anyway)
    Are the voters really that bothered about the Security Council seat? What use is it?

    Tony Blair's Labour Party was a very different beast to that which came within a hair's breadth of inflicting Jeremy Corbyn upon us. There is a perfectly plausible argument to be advanced that the end of the Union with (predominantly left-wing) Scotland is a price well worth paying, if it is certain or near certain to permanently reduce the hard left to a harmless rump. It might also, from a certain point of view, be a sad state of affairs, and you might dislike the whole idea intensely, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a certain logic to the position.

    Besides, Labour carefully crafted devolution to play to its political advantage, or what ultimately transpired to be a shockingly complacent and naive interpretation thereof. It would serve the party right if it were ultimately to be ruined by the project.
    I don't care what the voters views on it are, they are mostly more interested in domestic policy but the fact is our permanent membership of it is a key component of our power and prestige internationally, something it is the role of the Conservative and Unionist Party to preserve.

    Wilson also would have won in England in 1966 and England and Wales in 1964 and October 1974 and Attlee would have won in England alone in 1945 and England and Wales in 1950 too, it would be an unforgiveable folly for any Tory leader to lose Scotland, let alone advocate for it.

    That does not mean an English Parliament or regional assemblies cannot be considered too
    If Scotland goes independent England would claim to be the successor to the United Kingdom and get the permanent security council seat.

    Just as Russia already did the same thing when the USSR broke up. Russia was not the original permanent nation, the USSR was and the USSR no longer exists.

    Westminster would ensure this is resolved in the UN before Scotland goes independent and the UK has the right to veto any decision other than recognising England as the successor nation.
    Russia alone still had a population of over 100 million and one of the largest militaries in the world, England alone would not. If the UK broke up other nations like Japan, Germany and Brazil and India would use that as an excuse to press their case to take the UK's place amongst the other P5 members and in the General Assembly
    And London would listen to their case and veto it.

    You don't understand how this works, do you?
    If the UK breaks up the UK would no longer have the original seat as first granted to veto, a successor state would have to be chosen and England alone would have much less claim to it than Russia had in 1991 when its request to be treated as the successor state to the USSR on the UN security council was met without objection.
    Do you think this happens overnight in a vaccuum. There's a vote, the results are counted and the next day the UK ceases to exist. 🙄

    If the UK were to break up democratically it wouldn't happen overnight, it would be negotiated and agreed. Part of that agreement demanded by London would include recognising England as the successor state so that England gets the UNSC seat etc - the SNP don't want or expect that for themselves.

    Russia was accepted as continuity successor for the USSR as it was the logical successor and had half the population.

    England would be continuity successor for the UK as it is the logical successor and has 84% of the population.
    No, the UK would not cease to exist. Any more than it ceased to exist with the secession of Ireland in 1949.

    It is frustrating that people cannot grasp this basic point. Scotland would be a new country, not one of two successor states.
    The United Kingdom was created after the Union of England and Scotland in 1707, arguably it would cease to exist, being replaced by England and Wales and maybe Northern Ireland as the successor state
    No it wasn’t. That created the Kingdom of Great Britain. It was 1801 and the union with Ireland that created the United Kingdom.

    Honestly, call yourself an historian...this is so basic even the CIA gets it right. Heck, even Wikipedia does.
    Ireland left the Union 100 years, ago, so that Kingdom is no longer part of the UK, if Scotland also left which united the Kingdom of Scotland with the Kingdom of England (which includes Wales) there would be no Kingdoms left to unite as Wales is merely a Principality not a Kingdom and Northern Ireland is merely a province not a Kingdom either.
    Hyufd, I think you will find the kingdom of Ireland was redesignated the kingdom of Northern Ireland in 1927 and is still in being.

    It would be easier for you if you just accepted you were wrong and moved on, because you are and you are looking increasingly absurd.
    No, it was renamed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland rather than the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

    Northern Ireland however did not become a Kingdom in its own right, it is merely a province, the only Kingdoms left in the UK after Ireland's departure are the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Kingdom of England
    Northern Ireland is not a province. There are four provinces in Ireland: Ulster, Leinster, Connacht and (the best) Munster. None are coterminous with Northern Ireland.
    Northern Ireland is not a country or a Kingdom, the closest it is to a definition is a province or region
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom.
    Scotland is not a Kingdom.
    Wales is not a Kingdom.
    England is not a Kingdom.

    Great Britain and Northern Ireland is one United Kingdom.
    Which only came to being by uniting the Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, if only England was left there would thus be no United Kingdom left.
    The Kingdom of Northern Ireland??
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom
    Nor is England. 🤦‍♂️

    Nor is Scotland. 🤦‍♂️
    They are, just they have united together
    It's fascinating you say that, when you whole argument on the UN seat seems to be predicated on the assertion that uniting/disuniting fundamentally changes things and one cannot claim the entity that existed before is the same as the one after. And yet here uniting two kingdoms doesn't mean anything.
    If Scotland left that would be disuniting the UK, there would no longer be that union of the 2 kingdoms anymore and the UK of GB and NI that got the seat in 1945 would no longer exist
    Pick up a history book.

    There is no union of 2 kingdoms already. The 2 kingdoms were dissolved over 300 years ago.

    The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain (one single kingdom in the 18th century) and Northern Ireland anyway, Scotland doesn't enter into it.
    The 2 kingdoms were dissolved into 1 Kingdom which would cease to exist if Scotland left it, so the UK would no longer exist, with the Kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland which made up the UK with England no longer part of it.

    Same as England would cease to exist with Northumbria in the north of England, or Mercia in the Midlands or Wessex in the South chose to leave it
    No none of them would cease to exist. If Northumbria went independent the legacy state would be England.

    If Scotland goes independent the legacy state would be the United Kingdom.

    That's the way it works, unless there is no continuity state, but there would be.
    No it would not, if Northumbria went independent the legacy states would be Wessex and Mercia, there would no longer be an England.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGrES89AKz4



  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,101
    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1366448131496361986?s=20


    So it had to be gouged out of him, and he only did it at the last minute, to save his skin. Do the SNP realise how bad this looks?!

    The whole thing is unbelievable and if the SNP hold onto their popularity they will be very lucky
    The SNP are the party of independence. Lots and lots and lots of people want independence. So they'll keep voting for the SNP regardless of the circumstances.

    This is uncontroversial. So long as the core policy remains in place they can get away with anything, and still scoop up at least 45% of the constituency vote.
    Time will tell but as has been pointed out a considerable number of SNP supporters were formerly labour and support the union, they just thought the SNP would govern Scotland better

    It is now uncertain just how many of these supporters will stay will the SNP and as I have said before, some of my Scots family members are SNP supporters but also pro the Union
    Yes, after many years of appearing sensible and competent compared to Westminster, suddenly the SNP look hugely inept, riven with internal wars, and incapable of being honest. This may make voters scrutinise the rest of their record, and think Hmmm, because their record is not very good

    That's the big damage from Salmondgate. It removes the SNP's and Sturgeon's supposed USP: calm and measured governance.
    Tories have an interesting line to tread on all this. They need to damage the SNP to the extent that it really hurts independence. But not to the extent that it trashes the SNP so that Labour can start getting material numbers of Westminster seats. A seriously wounded Sturgeon still in place is probably Boris's best outcome.
    Any true Tory would put Britain before party-politics and prefer to see Scotland returning Labour MPs than SNP MPs.
    Our electoral system encourages broad coalitions within the same party, rather than governing coalitions between parties. Whether you think FPTP is any good or not, that is one of its effects.

    There is no reason to suppose that all Conservatives, or Conservative voters, are necessarily devout Unionists.

    After all, there's rather a lot to like for the English right if the Union collapses. The departure of Scotland kicks away Labour's Zimmer frame. Much is made of how the Scottish Tories saved Theresa May's bacon in 2017, but if Scotland had returned no MPs at all then even she would've commanded an outright majority.
    The UK would also risk its place as a permanent member on the UN Security Council if it broke up and it would project a weaker image of the rUK internationally. No genuine Tory would ever back Scottish independence (plus Labour would still have won a majority in England and Wales in 1997, 2001 and 2005 anyway)
    Are the voters really that bothered about the Security Council seat? What use is it?

    Tony Blair's Labour Party was a very different beast to that which came within a hair's breadth of inflicting Jeremy Corbyn upon us. There is a perfectly plausible argument to be advanced that the end of the Union with (predominantly left-wing) Scotland is a price well worth paying, if it is certain or near certain to permanently reduce the hard left to a harmless rump. It might also, from a certain point of view, be a sad state of affairs, and you might dislike the whole idea intensely, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a certain logic to the position.

    Besides, Labour carefully crafted devolution to play to its political advantage, or what ultimately transpired to be a shockingly complacent and naive interpretation thereof. It would serve the party right if it were ultimately to be ruined by the project.
    I don't care what the voters views on it are, they are mostly more interested in domestic policy but the fact is our permanent membership of it is a key component of our power and prestige internationally, something it is the role of the Conservative and Unionist Party to preserve.

    Wilson also would have won in England in 1966 and England and Wales in 1964 and October 1974 and Attlee would have won in England alone in 1945 and England and Wales in 1950 too, it would be an unforgiveable folly for any Tory leader to lose Scotland, let alone advocate for it.

    That does not mean an English Parliament or regional assemblies cannot be considered too
    If Scotland goes independent England would claim to be the successor to the United Kingdom and get the permanent security council seat.

    Just as Russia already did the same thing when the USSR broke up. Russia was not the original permanent nation, the USSR was and the USSR no longer exists.

    Westminster would ensure this is resolved in the UN before Scotland goes independent and the UK has the right to veto any decision other than recognising England as the successor nation.
    Russia alone still had a population of over 100 million and one of the largest militaries in the world, England alone would not. If the UK broke up other nations like Japan, Germany and Brazil and India would use that as an excuse to press their case to take the UK's place amongst the other P5 members and in the General Assembly
    And London would listen to their case and veto it.

    You don't understand how this works, do you?
    If the UK breaks up the UK would no longer have the original seat as first granted to veto, a successor state would have to be chosen and England alone would have much less claim to it than Russia had in 1991 when its request to be treated as the successor state to the USSR on the UN security council was met without objection.
    Do you think this happens overnight in a vaccuum. There's a vote, the results are counted and the next day the UK ceases to exist. 🙄

    If the UK were to break up democratically it wouldn't happen overnight, it would be negotiated and agreed. Part of that agreement demanded by London would include recognising England as the successor state so that England gets the UNSC seat etc - the SNP don't want or expect that for themselves.

    Russia was accepted as continuity successor for the USSR as it was the logical successor and had half the population.

    England would be continuity successor for the UK as it is the logical successor and has 84% of the population.
    No, the UK would not cease to exist. Any more than it ceased to exist with the secession of Ireland in 1949.

    It is frustrating that people cannot grasp this basic point. Scotland would be a new country, not one of two successor states.
    The United Kingdom was created after the Union of England and Scotland in 1707, arguably it would cease to exist, being replaced by England and Wales and maybe Northern Ireland as the successor state
    No it wasn’t. That created the Kingdom of Great Britain. It was 1801 and the union with Ireland that created the United Kingdom.

    Honestly, call yourself an historian...this is so basic even the CIA gets it right. Heck, even Wikipedia does.
    Ireland left the Union 100 years, ago, so that Kingdom is no longer part of the UK, if Scotland also left which united the Kingdom of Scotland with the Kingdom of England (which includes Wales) there would be no Kingdoms left to unite as Wales is merely a Principality not a Kingdom and Northern Ireland is merely a province not a Kingdom either.
    Hyufd, I think you will find the kingdom of Ireland was redesignated the kingdom of Northern Ireland in 1927 and is still in being.

    It would be easier for you if you just accepted you were wrong and moved on, because you are and you are looking increasingly absurd.
    No, it was renamed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland rather than the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

    Northern Ireland however did not become a Kingdom in its own right, it is merely a province, the only Kingdoms left in the UK after Ireland's departure are the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Kingdom of England
    Northern Ireland is not a province. There are four provinces in Ireland: Ulster, Leinster, Connacht and (the best) Munster. None are coterminous with Northern Ireland.
    Northern Ireland is not a country or a Kingdom, the closest it is to a definition is a province or region
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom.
    Scotland is not a Kingdom.
    Wales is not a Kingdom.
    England is not a Kingdom.

    Great Britain and Northern Ireland is one United Kingdom.
    Which only came to being by uniting the Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, if only England was left there would thus be no United Kingdom left.
    The Kingdom of Northern Ireland??
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom
    Nor is England. 🤦‍♂️

    Nor is Scotland. 🤦‍♂️
    They are, just they have united together
    It's fascinating you say that, when you whole argument on the UN seat seems to be predicated on the assertion that uniting/disuniting fundamentally changes things and one cannot claim the entity that existed before is the same as the one after. And yet here uniting two kingdoms doesn't mean anything.
    If Scotland left that would be disuniting the UK, there would no longer be that union of the 2 kingdoms anymore and the UK of GB and NI that got the seat in 1945 would no longer exist
    Pick up a history book.

    There is no union of 2 kingdoms already. The 2 kingdoms were dissolved over 300 years ago.

    The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain (one single kingdom in the 18th century) and Northern Ireland anyway, Scotland doesn't enter into it.
    The 2 kingdoms were dissolved into 1 Kingdom which would cease to exist if Scotland left it, so the UK would no longer exist, with the Kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland which made up the UK with England no longer part of it.

    Same as England would cease to exist with Northumbria in the north of England, or Mercia in the Midlands or Wessex in the South chose to leave it
    No none of them would cease to exist. If Northumbria went independent the legacy state would be England.

    If Scotland goes independent the legacy state would be the United Kingdom.

    That's the way it works, unless there is no continuity state, but there would be.
    No it would not, if Northumbria went independent the legacy states would be Wessex and Mercia, there would no longer be an England.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGrES89AKz4



    Indeed, 'There'll always be a Wessex' does not quite have the same ring to it!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
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    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1366448131496361986?s=20


    So it had to be gouged out of him, and he only did it at the last minute, to save his skin. Do the SNP realise how bad this looks?!

    The whole thing is unbelievable and if the SNP hold onto their popularity they will be very lucky
    The SNP are the party of independence. Lots and lots and lots of people want independence. So they'll keep voting for the SNP regardless of the circumstances.

    This is uncontroversial. So long as the core policy remains in place they can get away with anything, and still scoop up at least 45% of the constituency vote.
    Time will tell but as has been pointed out a considerable number of SNP supporters were formerly labour and support the union, they just thought the SNP would govern Scotland better

    It is now uncertain just how many of these supporters will stay will the SNP and as I have said before, some of my Scots family members are SNP supporters but also pro the Union
    Yes, after many years of appearing sensible and competent compared to Westminster, suddenly the SNP look hugely inept, riven with internal wars, and incapable of being honest. This may make voters scrutinise the rest of their record, and think Hmmm, because their record is not very good

    That's the big damage from Salmondgate. It removes the SNP's and Sturgeon's supposed USP: calm and measured governance.
    Tories have an interesting line to tread on all this. They need to damage the SNP to the extent that it really hurts independence. But not to the extent that it trashes the SNP so that Labour can start getting material numbers of Westminster seats. A seriously wounded Sturgeon still in place is probably Boris's best outcome.
    Any true Tory would put Britain before party-politics and prefer to see Scotland returning Labour MPs than SNP MPs.
    Our electoral system encourages broad coalitions within the same party, rather than governing coalitions between parties. Whether you think FPTP is any good or not, that is one of its effects.

    There is no reason to suppose that all Conservatives, or Conservative voters, are necessarily devout Unionists.

    After all, there's rather a lot to like for the English right if the Union collapses. The departure of Scotland kicks away Labour's Zimmer frame. Much is made of how the Scottish Tories saved Theresa May's bacon in 2017, but if Scotland had returned no MPs at all then even she would've commanded an outright majority.
    The UK would also risk its place as a permanent member on the UN Security Council if it broke up and it would project a weaker image of the rUK internationally. No genuine Tory would ever back Scottish independence (plus Labour would still have won a majority in England and Wales in 1997, 2001 and 2005 anyway)
    Are the voters really that bothered about the Security Council seat? What use is it?

    Tony Blair's Labour Party was a very different beast to that which came within a hair's breadth of inflicting Jeremy Corbyn upon us. There is a perfectly plausible argument to be advanced that the end of the Union with (predominantly left-wing) Scotland is a price well worth paying, if it is certain or near certain to permanently reduce the hard left to a harmless rump. It might also, from a certain point of view, be a sad state of affairs, and you might dislike the whole idea intensely, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a certain logic to the position.

    Besides, Labour carefully crafted devolution to play to its political advantage, or what ultimately transpired to be a shockingly complacent and naive interpretation thereof. It would serve the party right if it were ultimately to be ruined by the project.
    I don't care what the voters views on it are, they are mostly more interested in domestic policy but the fact is our permanent membership of it is a key component of our power and prestige internationally, something it is the role of the Conservative and Unionist Party to preserve.

    Wilson also would have won in England in 1966 and England and Wales in 1964 and October 1974 and Attlee would have won in England alone in 1945 and England and Wales in 1950 too, it would be an unforgiveable folly for any Tory leader to lose Scotland, let alone advocate for it.

    That does not mean an English Parliament or regional assemblies cannot be considered too
    If Scotland goes independent England would claim to be the successor to the United Kingdom and get the permanent security council seat.

    Just as Russia already did the same thing when the USSR broke up. Russia was not the original permanent nation, the USSR was and the USSR no longer exists.

    Westminster would ensure this is resolved in the UN before Scotland goes independent and the UK has the right to veto any decision other than recognising England as the successor nation.
    Russia alone still had a population of over 100 million and one of the largest militaries in the world, England alone would not. If the UK broke up other nations like Japan, Germany and Brazil and India would use that as an excuse to press their case to take the UK's place amongst the other P5 members and in the General Assembly
    And London would listen to their case and veto it.

    You don't understand how this works, do you?
    If the UK breaks up the UK would no longer have the original seat as first granted to veto, a successor state would have to be chosen and England alone would have much less claim to it than Russia had in 1991 when its request to be treated as the successor state to the USSR on the UN security council was met without objection.
    Do you think this happens overnight in a vaccuum. There's a vote, the results are counted and the next day the UK ceases to exist. 🙄

    If the UK were to break up democratically it wouldn't happen overnight, it would be negotiated and agreed. Part of that agreement demanded by London would include recognising England as the successor state so that England gets the UNSC seat etc - the SNP don't want or expect that for themselves.

    Russia was accepted as continuity successor for the USSR as it was the logical successor and had half the population.

    England would be continuity successor for the UK as it is the logical successor and has 84% of the population.
    No, the UK would not cease to exist. Any more than it ceased to exist with the secession of Ireland in 1949.

    It is frustrating that people cannot grasp this basic point. Scotland would be a new country, not one of two successor states.
    The United Kingdom was created after the Union of England and Scotland in 1707, arguably it would cease to exist, being replaced by England and Wales and maybe Northern Ireland as the successor state
    No it wasn’t. That created the Kingdom of Great Britain. It was 1801 and the union with Ireland that created the United Kingdom.

    Honestly, call yourself an historian...this is so basic even the CIA gets it right. Heck, even Wikipedia does.
    Ireland left the Union 100 years, ago, so that Kingdom is no longer part of the UK, if Scotland also left which united the Kingdom of Scotland with the Kingdom of England (which includes Wales) there would be no Kingdoms left to unite as Wales is merely a Principality not a Kingdom and Northern Ireland is merely a province not a Kingdom either.
    Hyufd, I think you will find the kingdom of Ireland was redesignated the kingdom of Northern Ireland in 1927 and is still in being.

    It would be easier for you if you just accepted you were wrong and moved on, because you are and you are looking increasingly absurd.
    No, it was renamed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland rather than the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

    Northern Ireland however did not become a Kingdom in its own right, it is merely a province, the only Kingdoms left in the UK after Ireland's departure are the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Kingdom of England
    Northern Ireland is not a province. There are four provinces in Ireland: Ulster, Leinster, Connacht and (the best) Munster. None are coterminous with Northern Ireland.
    Northern Ireland is not a country or a Kingdom, the closest it is to a definition is a province or region
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom.
    Scotland is not a Kingdom.
    Wales is not a Kingdom.
    England is not a Kingdom.

    Great Britain and Northern Ireland is one United Kingdom.
    Which only came to being by uniting the Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, if only England was left there would thus be no United Kingdom left.
    The Kingdom of Northern Ireland??
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom
    Nor is England. 🤦‍♂️

    Nor is Scotland. 🤦‍♂️
    They are, just they have united together
    It's fascinating you say that, when you whole argument on the UN seat seems to be predicated on the assertion that uniting/disuniting fundamentally changes things and one cannot claim the entity that existed before is the same as the one after. And yet here uniting two kingdoms doesn't mean anything.
    If Scotland left that would be disuniting the UK, there would no longer be that union of the 2 kingdoms anymore and the UK of GB and NI that got the seat in 1945 would no longer exist
    Pick up a history book.

    There is no union of 2 kingdoms already. The 2 kingdoms were dissolved over 300 years ago.

    The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain (one single kingdom in the 18th century) and Northern Ireland anyway, Scotland doesn't enter into it.
    The 2 kingdoms were dissolved into 1 Kingdom which would cease to exist if Scotland left it, so the UK would no longer exist, with the Kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland which made up the UK with England no longer part of it.

    Same as England would cease to exist with Northumbria in the north of England, or Mercia in the Midlands or Wessex in the South chose to leave it
    No none of them would cease to exist. If Northumbria went independent the legacy state would be England.

    If Scotland goes independent the legacy state would be the United Kingdom.

    That's the way it works, unless there is no continuity state, but there would be.
    No it would not, if Northumbria went independent the legacy states would be Wessex and Mercia, there would no longer be an England.

    If Scotland went independent the legacy state would be England, Wales and NI, there would no longer be a UK
    You can not be serious!

    Where in the law are Wessex and Mercia defined as legacy states? Probably in the same place as the "kingdom of England" is defined. 🙄

    If Northern Ireland went there'd be no UK, not that it matters since GB would be the continuity of the UK. If Scotland goes the name might remain UK.
    England was only created by the unity of Northumbria with Wessex and Mercia in 953, without that union by definition there no longer is an England.

    If Scotland left there would be no UK, Northern Ireland is a province not a Kingdom as Ireland was
    No you are being preposterous, England is whatever it is. It doesn't matter what it was created with, it is an evolving creature that at the last point the Kingdom of England actually existed included Wales. If Wales goes independent does England cease to exist?

    The Kingdom of Mercia does not exist anymore. Northumbria going independent wouldn't bring it back automatically.

    The Kingdom of England does not exist anymore. Scotland going independent wouldn't bring it back automatically.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

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    Leon said:

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    Carnyx said:

    Interesting header; of course, the Scottish Greens (who are slated to do well, much better than the LDs) are also a pro-independence party, so it's not just a matter of the SNP.

    It is, if there is no change to the current SNP and Green majority at Holyrood then the SNP have zero grounds to claim a 'material change in circumstances' due to Brexit for indyref2 (given the 2016 election was before Brexit) and in 2011 it was only the SNP majority Salmond won that led to the 2014 independence referendum
    Not so. If the pro-Independence parties maintain a majority then the material change of Brexit is more than enough justification for a referendum. They will have both the electoral support and the material reason to call one. Whether they will win is another matter but that is for the Scottish people to decide. They deserve to be given that chance.
    No. There was already an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood even before the Brexit vote. If the SNP cannot even match the majority they got in 2011 before the 2014 referendum after Brexit there is absolutely zero grounds for any indyref2 and this Tory government will correctly and easily refuse a legal indyref2 and the 2014 'once in a generation' referendum will be respected.
    If you don't think Brexit was a material change then why have you spent the last 4 years so adamant that it should be enacted? You and I both know that the Unionist side campaigned strongly on the fact that the only way to secure the future of Scotland within the EU was to vote against independence and now that we have Brexited, against the wishes of a very clear majority of Scots, it is only right that the question should be revisited.

    You may not wish Scotland to become independent but to deny them that choice is thoroughly undemocratic.
    No it isn't, it is entirely in accordance with the Scotland Act 1998 in which Union matters are reserved to Westminster.

    We Tories have a majority at Westminster, have been clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote and will not therefore allow a legal indyref2.

    If it was such a material change anyway Yes would be over 62% given 62% of Scots voted Remain in 2016, not just 43% ie even less than it got in 2014

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1365978299265150978?s=20
    If we had relied upon opinion polls as an indicator of whether or not to hold a referendum there would never have been a Brexit vote.

    Why are you so afraid of an Independence vote if you are so sure the Unionists would win?
    Yes, referendums are unpredictable, which is even more reason to refuse an indyref2 and respect the 'once in a generation' 2014 vote.

    As a non Tory you are entitled to your opinion but we Tories have a majority and we will say a firm no and refuse a legal indyref2 as we are entitled to do under the Scotland Act 1998
    And thereby make the eventual loss in a referendum all the more likely.

    If you were to grant the referendum and fight a positive campaign on the benefits of unionism you may stand a chance. By refusing a referendum you just make it all the more likely that Scotland will eventually vote for independence.
    Rubbish, it is SNP appeasers like you who will give in to the SNP at every opportunity and allow them constant referendums until they win who make independence far more likely. 2014 was a once in a generation referendum, end of conversation, that means no legal indyref2 until at least 15 to 20 years after the first, much as Canada only allowed Quebec a second independence referendum in 1995, 15 years after the first in 1980. A gap that was long enough for the second referendum to settle the matter as a genuine generation had elapsed, even if No only narrowly won.
    For the umpteenth time Canada didn't "allow" a second referendum after fifteen years. The Quebec voters took fifteen years to elect another government that wanted another referendum. 🙄

    Had the Canadians tried to tell the Québécois they weren't allowed another referendum then the second referendum when held won have been won handsomely by Yes. Instead Yes lost it despite calling the referendum on their own timescale which closed the issue.
    No evidence for that at all, Catalonia of course remains part of Spain having had no referendums at all.

    Any indyref2 would require devomax etc to ensure a No victory and if the government is not ready to do that then pointless allowing it
    Again the Canadian federal government did not "allow" the Quebec referendum. The Quebec government had it on their own timeline that they chose themselves. Do you understand that point, yes or no?

    The UK is not Spain.
    No sane and stable democracy can allow TWO referendums on the same subject within less than ten years: that subject being the break up of the nation. By your recipe the Nats should be allowed to call a vote whenever they like, if they have a majority. Why not one a year until 2024? You can have no logical objection. Six every decade? Until they win? What is your logical problem with that? Or do they only get one per election? Where in the law books does it say that?

    You are making it up.

    Allowing endless referendums is a recipe for perpetual instability, and economic chaos. The right to allow referendums was reserved to Westminster, in the Scotland Act, precisely for this reason. A referendum on secession is so huge it must be a very rare event, approved by all four nations of the UK, through MPs representing their voters, in the Commons. This, of course, includes Scottish MPs. This is not England allowing a referendum, or not, this is the Union, the UK, democratically deciding in its supreme house of parliament.

    If Sturgeon wins her majority and calls for a new indyref, let Boris put it to the Commons for a Free Vote, and let the MPs of the entire United Kingdom decide. That is British democracy
    Following that argument, would you have supported the European Parliament voting to decide whther to allow Brexit?
    Had the UK government demanded a referendum on membership in 1982 just 7 years after voting to stay in the EEC in 1975 the EEC would have had a case to block it yes
    Are you really saying that if the British people had voted in 1983 for a party with an explicit manifesto promise to leave the EU, that should just be ignored becase of the earlier referendum?
    Until another referendum had been held after a generation had elapsed since 1975, as it had by 2016, yes
    There's an old saying that no Parliament may bind its successors.

    Your view seems to be that one electorate can bind another.

    Let's go with a ridiculous example. In 2024, the LibDems win 70% of the popular vote and every seat in the House of Commons on a policy of having a referendum on EU membership.*

    In those circumstances, do we deny the electorate what they have voted for? Under what moral basis can the people of yesterday, deny the people of today the right to their own choices?

    * Note: this is not an actual prediction
    That is a different scenario as the UK would already have left the EU by that stage.

    The UK government however would have the final say on when a referendum should be allowed in terms of Scottish independence while it remains part of the UK
    Translation:

    That is a different scenario, so I will ignore it.

    I'll restate the Scotland point again.
    -----------

    It's not hard - if you believe in the supremacy of Westminster as you have often asserted, the answer is obviously no, the LDs could do as they wanted in that scenario. If because it is a different scenario the 4 decades thing doesn't count, then the answer would also still presumably be no.

    The scenario was also a referendum on EU membership, not a referendum to leave the EU.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,101
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

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    Carnyx said:

    Interesting header; of course, the Scottish Greens (who are slated to do well, much better than the LDs) are also a pro-independence party, so it's not just a matter of the SNP.

    It is, if there is no change to the current SNP and Green majority at Holyrood then the SNP have zero grounds to claim a 'material change in circumstances' due to Brexit for indyref2 (given the 2016 election was before Brexit) and in 2011 it was only the SNP majority Salmond won that led to the 2014 independence referendum
    Not so. If the pro-Independence parties maintain a majority then the material change of Brexit is more than enough justification for a referendum. They will have both the electoral support and the material reason to call one. Whether they will win is another matter but that is for the Scottish people to decide. They deserve to be given that chance.
    No. There was already an SNP and Green majority at Holyrood even before the Brexit vote. If the SNP cannot even match the majority they got in 2011 before the 2014 referendum after Brexit there is absolutely zero grounds for any indyref2 and this Tory government will correctly and easily refuse a legal indyref2 and the 2014 'once in a generation' referendum will be respected.
    If you don't think Brexit was a material change then why have you spent the last 4 years so adamant that it should be enacted? You and I both know that the Unionist side campaigned strongly on the fact that the only way to secure the future of Scotland within the EU was to vote against independence and now that we have Brexited, against the wishes of a very clear majority of Scots, it is only right that the question should be revisited.

    You may not wish Scotland to become independent but to deny them that choice is thoroughly undemocratic.
    No it isn't, it is entirely in accordance with the Scotland Act 1998 in which Union matters are reserved to Westminster.

    We Tories have a majority at Westminster, have been clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote and will not therefore allow a legal indyref2.

    If it was such a material change anyway Yes would be over 62% given 62% of Scots voted Remain in 2016, not just 43% ie even less than it got in 2014

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1365978299265150978?s=20
    If we had relied upon opinion polls as an indicator of whether or not to hold a referendum there would never have been a Brexit vote.

    Why are you so afraid of an Independence vote if you are so sure the Unionists would win?
    Yes, referendums are unpredictable, which is even more reason to refuse an indyref2 and respect the 'once in a generation' 2014 vote.

    As a non Tory you are entitled to your opinion but we Tories have a majority and we will say a firm no and refuse a legal indyref2 as we are entitled to do under the Scotland Act 1998
    And thereby make the eventual loss in a referendum all the more likely.

    If you were to grant the referendum and fight a positive campaign on the benefits of unionism you may stand a chance. By refusing a referendum you just make it all the more likely that Scotland will eventually vote for independence.
    Rubbish, it is SNP appeasers like you who will give in to the SNP at every opportunity and allow them constant referendums until they win who make independence far more likely. 2014 was a once in a generation referendum, end of conversation, that means no legal indyref2 until at least 15 to 20 years after the first, much as Canada only allowed Quebec a second independence referendum in 1995, 15 years after the first in 1980. A gap that was long enough for the second referendum to settle the matter as a genuine generation had elapsed, even if No only narrowly won.
    For the umpteenth time Canada didn't "allow" a second referendum after fifteen years. The Quebec voters took fifteen years to elect another government that wanted another referendum. 🙄

    Had the Canadians tried to tell the Québécois they weren't allowed another referendum then the second referendum when held won have been won handsomely by Yes. Instead Yes lost it despite calling the referendum on their own timescale which closed the issue.
    No evidence for that at all, Catalonia of course remains part of Spain having had no referendums at all.

    Any indyref2 would require devomax etc to ensure a No victory and if the government is not ready to do that then pointless allowing it
    Again the Canadian federal government did not "allow" the Quebec referendum. The Quebec government had it on their own timeline that they chose themselves. Do you understand that point, yes or no?

    The UK is not Spain.
    No sane and stable democracy can allow TWO referendums on the same subject within less than ten years: that subject being the break up of the nation. By your recipe the Nats should be allowed to call a vote whenever they like, if they have a majority. Why not one a year until 2024? You can have no logical objection. Six every decade? Until they win? What is your logical problem with that? Or do they only get one per election? Where in the law books does it say that?

    You are making it up.

    Allowing endless referendums is a recipe for perpetual instability, and economic chaos. The right to allow referendums was reserved to Westminster, in the Scotland Act, precisely for this reason. A referendum on secession is so huge it must be a very rare event, approved by all four nations of the UK, through MPs representing their voters, in the Commons. This, of course, includes Scottish MPs. This is not England allowing a referendum, or not, this is the Union, the UK, democratically deciding in its supreme house of parliament.

    If Sturgeon wins her majority and calls for a new indyref, let Boris put it to the Commons for a Free Vote, and let the MPs of the entire United Kingdom decide. That is British democracy
    Following that argument, would you have supported the European Parliament voting to decide whther to allow Brexit?
    Had the UK government demanded a referendum on membership in 1982 just 7 years after voting to stay in the EEC in 1975 the EEC would have had a case to block it yes
    Are you really saying that if the British people had voted in 1983 for a party with an explicit manifesto promise to leave the EU, that should just be ignored becase of the earlier referendum?
    Until another referendum had been held after a generation had elapsed since 1975, as it had by 2016, yes
    There's an old saying that no Parliament may bind its successors.

    Your view seems to be that one electorate can bind another.

    Let's go with a ridiculous example. In 2024, the LibDems win 70% of the popular vote and every seat in the House of Commons on a policy of having a referendum on EU membership.*

    In those circumstances, do we deny the electorate what they have voted for? Under what moral basis can the people of yesterday, deny the people of today the right to their own choices?

    * Note: this is not an actual prediction
    That is a different scenario as the UK would already have left the EU by that stage.

    The UK government however would have the final say on when a referendum should be allowed in terms of Scottish independence while it remains part of the UK
    Translation:

    That is a different scenario, so I will ignore it.

    I'll restate the Scotland point again.
    -----------

    It's not hard - if you believe in the supremacy of Westminster as you have often asserted, the answer is obviously no, the LDs could do as they wanted in that scenario. If because it is a different scenario the 4 decades thing doesn't count, then the answer would also still presumably be no.

    The scenario was also a referendum on EU membership, not a referendum to leave the EU.
    Which was only possible from an EU perspective once the EU had enabled the exit process under Article 50 of its constitution
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Johnson, such a grifter

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1366520391200628738?s=20


    "An ally of Mr Johnson last night defended the charity plan, saying: 'Downing Street is as iconic as Windsor Castle but is in danger of becoming tatty because the Civil Service does everything on the cheap."
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,101
    edited March 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1366448131496361986?s=20


    So it had to be gouged out of him, and he only did it at the last minute, to save his skin. Do the SNP realise how bad this looks?!

    The whole thing is unbelievable and if the SNP hold onto their popularity they will be very lucky
    The SNP are the party of independence. Lots and lots and lots of people want independence. So they'll keep voting for the SNP regardless of the circumstances.

    This is uncontroversial. So long as the core policy remains in place they can get away with anything, and still scoop up at least 45% of the constituency vote.
    Time will tell but as has been pointed out a considerable number of SNP supporters were formerly labour and support the union, they just thought the SNP would govern Scotland better

    It is now uncertain just how many of these supporters will stay will the SNP and as I have said before, some of my Scots family members are SNP supporters but also pro the Union
    Yes, after many years of appearing sensible and competent compared to Westminster, suddenly the SNP look hugely inept, riven with internal wars, and incapable of being honest. This may make voters scrutinise the rest of their record, and think Hmmm, because their record is not very good

    That's the big damage from Salmondgate. It removes the SNP's and Sturgeon's supposed USP: calm and measured governance.
    Tories have an interesting line to tread on all this. They need to damage the SNP to the extent that it really hurts independence. But not to the extent that it trashes the SNP so that Labour can start getting material numbers of Westminster seats. A seriously wounded Sturgeon still in place is probably Boris's best outcome.
    Any true Tory would put Britain before party-politics and prefer to see Scotland returning Labour MPs than SNP MPs.
    Our electoral system encourages broad coalitions within the same party, rather than governing coalitions between parties. Whether you think FPTP is any good or not, that is one of its effects.

    There is no reason to suppose that all Conservatives, or Conservative voters, are necessarily devout Unionists.

    After all, there's rather a lot to like for the English right if the Union collapses. The departure of Scotland kicks away Labour's Zimmer frame. Much is made of how the Scottish Tories saved Theresa May's bacon in 2017, but if Scotland had returned no MPs at all then even she would've commanded an outright majority.
    The UK would also risk its place as a permanent member on the UN Security Council if it broke up and it would project a weaker image of the rUK internationally. No genuine Tory would ever back Scottish independence (plus Labour would still have won a majority in England and Wales in 1997, 2001 and 2005 anyway)
    Are the voters really that bothered about the Security Council seat? What use is it?

    Tony Blair's Labour Party was a very different beast to that which came within a hair's breadth of inflicting Jeremy Corbyn upon us. There is a perfectly plausible argument to be advanced that the end of the Union with (predominantly left-wing) Scotland is a price well worth paying, if it is certain or near certain to permanently reduce the hard left to a harmless rump. It might also, from a certain point of view, be a sad state of affairs, and you might dislike the whole idea intensely, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a certain logic to the position.

    Besides, Labour carefully crafted devolution to play to its political advantage, or what ultimately transpired to be a shockingly complacent and naive interpretation thereof. It would serve the party right if it were ultimately to be ruined by the project.
    I don't care what the voters views on it are, they are mostly more interested in domestic policy but the fact is our permanent membership of it is a key component of our power and prestige internationally, something it is the role of the Conservative and Unionist Party to preserve.

    Wilson also would have won in England in 1966 and England and Wales in 1964 and October 1974 and Attlee would have won in England alone in 1945 and England and Wales in 1950 too, it would be an unforgiveable folly for any Tory leader to lose Scotland, let alone advocate for it.

    That does not mean an English Parliament or regional assemblies cannot be considered too
    If Scotland goes independent England would claim to be the successor to the United Kingdom and get the permanent security council seat.

    Just as Russia already did the same thing when the USSR broke up. Russia was not the original permanent nation, the USSR was and the USSR no longer exists.

    Westminster would ensure this is resolved in the UN before Scotland goes independent and the UK has the right to veto any decision other than recognising England as the successor nation.
    Russia alone still had a population of over 100 million and one of the largest militaries in the world, England alone would not. If the UK broke up other nations like Japan, Germany and Brazil and India would use that as an excuse to press their case to take the UK's place amongst the other P5 members and in the General Assembly
    And London would listen to their case and veto it.

    You don't understand how this works, do you?
    If the UK breaks up the UK would no longer have the original seat as first granted to veto, a successor state would have to be chosen and England alone would have much less claim to it than Russia had in 1991 when its request to be treated as the successor state to the USSR on the UN security council was met without objection.
    Do you think this happens overnight in a vaccuum. There's a vote, the results are counted and the next day the UK ceases to exist. 🙄

    If the UK were to break up democratically it wouldn't happen overnight, it would be negotiated and agreed. Part of that agreement demanded by London would include recognising England as the successor state so that England gets the UNSC seat etc - the SNP don't want or expect that for themselves.

    Russia was accepted as continuity successor for the USSR as it was the logical successor and had half the population.

    England would be continuity successor for the UK as it is the logical successor and has 84% of the population.
    No, the UK would not cease to exist. Any more than it ceased to exist with the secession of Ireland in 1949.

    It is frustrating that people cannot grasp this basic point. Scotland would be a new country, not one of two successor states.
    The United Kingdom was created after the Union of England and Scotland in 1707, arguably it would cease to exist, being replaced by England and Wales and maybe Northern Ireland as the successor state
    No it wasn’t. That created the Kingdom of Great Britain. It was 1801 and the union with Ireland that created the United Kingdom.

    Honestly, call yourself an historian...this is so basic even the CIA gets it right. Heck, even Wikipedia does.
    Ireland left the Union 100 years, ago, so that Kingdom is no longer part of the UK, if Scotland also left which united the Kingdom of Scotland with the Kingdom of England (which includes Wales) there would be no Kingdoms left to unite as Wales is merely a Principality not a Kingdom and Northern Ireland is merely a province not a Kingdom either.
    Hyufd, I think you will find the kingdom of Ireland was redesignated the kingdom of Northern Ireland in 1927 and is still in being.

    It would be easier for you if you just accepted you were wrong and moved on, because you are and you are looking increasingly absurd.
    No, it was renamed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland rather than the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

    Northern Ireland however did not become a Kingdom in its own right, it is merely a province, the only Kingdoms left in the UK after Ireland's departure are the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Kingdom of England
    Northern Ireland is not a province. There are four provinces in Ireland: Ulster, Leinster, Connacht and (the best) Munster. None are coterminous with Northern Ireland.
    Northern Ireland is not a country or a Kingdom, the closest it is to a definition is a province or region
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom.
    Scotland is not a Kingdom.
    Wales is not a Kingdom.
    England is not a Kingdom.

    Great Britain and Northern Ireland is one United Kingdom.
    Which only came to being by uniting the Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, if only England was left there would thus be no United Kingdom left.
    The Kingdom of Northern Ireland??
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom
    Nor is England. 🤦‍♂️

    Nor is Scotland. 🤦‍♂️
    They are, just they have united together
    It's fascinating you say that, when you whole argument on the UN seat seems to be predicated on the assertion that uniting/disuniting fundamentally changes things and one cannot claim the entity that existed before is the same as the one after. And yet here uniting two kingdoms doesn't mean anything.
    If Scotland left that would be disuniting the UK, there would no longer be that union of the 2 kingdoms anymore and the UK of GB and NI that got the seat in 1945 would no longer exist
    Pick up a history book.

    There is no union of 2 kingdoms already. The 2 kingdoms were dissolved over 300 years ago.

    The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain (one single kingdom in the 18th century) and Northern Ireland anyway, Scotland doesn't enter into it.
    The 2 kingdoms were dissolved into 1 Kingdom which would cease to exist if Scotland left it, so the UK would no longer exist, with the Kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland which made up the UK with England no longer part of it.

    Same as England would cease to exist with Northumbria in the north of England, or Mercia in the Midlands or Wessex in the South chose to leave it
    No none of them would cease to exist. If Northumbria went independent the legacy state would be England.

    If Scotland goes independent the legacy state would be the United Kingdom.

    That's the way it works, unless there is no continuity state, but there would be.
    No it would not, if Northumbria went independent the legacy states would be Wessex and Mercia, there would no longer be an England.

    If Scotland went independent the legacy state would be England, Wales and NI, there would no longer be a UK
    You can not be serious!

    Where in the law are Wessex and Mercia defined as legacy states? Probably in the same place as the "kingdom of England" is defined. 🙄

    If Northern Ireland went there'd be no UK, not that it matters since GB would be the continuity of the UK. If Scotland goes the name might remain UK.
    England was only created by the unity of Northumbria with Wessex and Mercia in 953, without that union by definition there no longer is an England.

    If Scotland left there would be no UK, Northern Ireland is a province not a Kingdom as Ireland was
    No you are being preposterous, England is whatever it is. It doesn't matter what it was created with, it is an evolving creature that at the last point the Kingdom of England actually existed included Wales. If Wales goes independent does England cease to exist?

    The Kingdom of Mercia does not exist anymore. Northumbria going independent wouldn't bring it back automatically.

    The Kingdom of England does not exist anymore. Scotland going independent wouldn't bring it back automatically.
    No, England is what it is only as a union of Northumbria, Mercia and Wessex which originally created it. Without them there would no longer be an England.

    If Wales went independent the Kingdom of England would change to remove Wales but England would not cease to exist as Wales was only added to it by Edward 1st 3 centuries after the original Kingdom of England was created
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited March 2021
    JonathanD said:

    Johnson, such a grifter

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1366520391200628738?s=20


    "An ally of Mr Johnson last night defended the charity plan, saying: 'Downing Street is as iconic as Windsor Castle but is in danger of becoming tatty because the Civil Service does everything on the cheap."

    I think that translates as “the civil service are killjoys who obey the law and we know we’d be laughed out the door if we tried to get this through a vote in Parliament to make it lawful”.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    JonathanD said:

    Johnson, such a grifter

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1366520391200628738?s=20


    "An ally of Mr Johnson last night defended the charity plan, saying: 'Downing Street is as iconic as Windsor Castle but is in danger of becoming tatty because the Civil Service does everything on the cheap."

    What's the issue?

    Number 10 doesn't belong to Johnson, though he may live there for many, many years to come, it belongs to the state. Any refurbishments done stay with the state.

    So there's no reason why the state shouldn't pay for it.

    But if donors want to pay for it instead of the tax payer then that's fine by me. Let our taxes be spent on something else.

    What's the problem?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,939
    Has Betfair got a market yet for the number of blinks per minute during her interrogation?
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,671
    Nigelb said:
    Foxes do that too, as do deer sometimes (but not in their normal gait).
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    There is something rotten in the state of Scotland
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    If it gets really bad, she could just shout "99!".....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    JonathanD said:

    Johnson, such a grifter

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1366520391200628738?s=20


    "An ally of Mr Johnson last night defended the charity plan, saying: 'Downing Street is as iconic as Windsor Castle but is in danger of becoming tatty because the Civil Service does everything on the cheap."

    What's the issue?

    Number 10 doesn't belong to Johnson, though he may live there for many, many years to come, it belongs to the state. Any refurbishments done stay with the state.

    So there's no reason why the state shouldn't pay for it.

    But if donors want to pay for it instead of the tax payer then that's fine by me. Let our taxes be spent on something else.

    What's the problem?
    Probably not a good idea for it to seem like he might owe people a personal favour for it. Better to avoid the accusation.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    I was wondering if someone could elucidate for me what the successor state of the UK would be if Scotland gained independence. [Innocent face]
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    JonathanD said:

    Johnson, such a grifter

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1366520391200628738?s=20


    "An ally of Mr Johnson last night defended the charity plan, saying: 'Downing Street is as iconic as Windsor Castle but is in danger of becoming tatty because the Civil Service does everything on the cheap."

    What's the issue?

    Number 10 doesn't belong to Johnson, though he may live there for many, many years to come, it belongs to the state. Any refurbishments done stay with the state.

    So there's no reason why the state shouldn't pay for it.

    But if donors want to pay for it instead of the tax payer then that's fine by me. Let our taxes be spent on something else.

    What's the problem?
    lol, very good for being able to say that with a straight face.

    I think the problem is fairly obvious, especially for someone with Johnsons past performance. BJ turning this country into a third rate banana republic at speed.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    What are the UK government procedures for retaining notes of such meetings ?

    In the US there’s a legal obligation to retain such written records - what are the rules here ?
    what the minutes record that Boris says they are.
    Fixed it for you
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited March 2021
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1366448131496361986?s=20


    So it had to be gouged out of him, and he only did it at the last minute, to save his skin. Do the SNP realise how bad this looks?!

    The whole thing is unbelievable and if the SNP hold onto their popularity they will be very lucky
    The SNP are the party of independence. Lots and lots and lots of people want independence. So they'll keep voting for the SNP regardless of the circumstances.

    This is uncontroversial. So long as the core policy remains in place they can get away with anything, and still scoop up at least 45% of the constituency vote.
    Time will tell but as has been pointed out a considerable number of SNP supporters were formerly labour and support the union, they just thought the SNP would govern Scotland better

    It is now uncertain just how many of these supporters will stay will the SNP and as I have said before, some of my Scots family members are SNP supporters but also pro the Union
    Yes, after many years of appearing sensible and competent compared to Westminster, suddenly the SNP look hugely inept, riven with internal wars, and incapable of being honest. This may make voters scrutinise the rest of their record, and think Hmmm, because their record is not very good

    That's the big damage from Salmondgate. It removes the SNP's and Sturgeon's supposed USP: calm and measured governance.
    Tories have an interesting line to tread on all this. They need to damage the SNP to the extent that it really hurts independence. But not to the extent that it trashes the SNP so that Labour can start getting material numbers of Westminster seats. A seriously wounded Sturgeon still in place is probably Boris's best outcome.
    Any true Tory would put Britain before party-politics and prefer to see Scotland returning Labour MPs than SNP MPs.
    Our electoral system encourages broad coalitions within the same party, rather than governing coalitions between parties. Whether you think FPTP is any good or not, that is one of its effects.

    There is no reason to suppose that all Conservatives, or Conservative voters, are necessarily devout Unionists.

    After all, there's rather a lot to like for the English right if the Union collapses. The departure of Scotland kicks away Labour's Zimmer frame. Much is made of how the Scottish Tories saved Theresa May's bacon in 2017, but if Scotland had returned no MPs at all then even she would've commanded an outright majority.
    The UK would also risk its place as a permanent member on the UN Security Council if it broke up and it would project a weaker image of the rUK internationally. No genuine Tory would ever back Scottish independence (plus Labour would still have won a majority in England and Wales in 1997, 2001 and 2005 anyway)
    Are the voters really that bothered about the Security Council seat? What use is it?

    Tony Blair's Labour Party was a very different beast to that which came within a hair's breadth of inflicting Jeremy Corbyn upon us. There is a perfectly plausible argument to be advanced that the end of the Union with (predominantly left-wing) Scotland is a price well worth paying, if it is certain or near certain to permanently reduce the hard left to a harmless rump. It might also, from a certain point of view, be a sad state of affairs, and you might dislike the whole idea intensely, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a certain logic to the position.

    Besides, Labour carefully crafted devolution to play to its political advantage, or what ultimately transpired to be a shockingly complacent and naive interpretation thereof. It would serve the party right if it were ultimately to be ruined by the project.
    I don't care what the voters views on it are, they are mostly more interested in domestic policy but the fact is our permanent membership of it is a key component of our power and prestige internationally, something it is the role of the Conservative and Unionist Party to preserve.

    Wilson also would have won in England in 1966 and England and Wales in 1964 and October 1974 and Attlee would have won in England alone in 1945 and England and Wales in 1950 too, it would be an unforgiveable folly for any Tory leader to lose Scotland, let alone advocate for it.

    That does not mean an English Parliament or regional assemblies cannot be considered too
    If Scotland goes independent England would claim to be the successor to the United Kingdom and get the permanent security council seat.

    Just as Russia already did the same thing when the USSR broke up. Russia was not the original permanent nation, the USSR was and the USSR no longer exists.

    Westminster would ensure this is resolved in the UN before Scotland goes independent and the UK has the right to veto any decision other than recognising England as the successor nation.
    Russia alone still had a population of over 100 million and one of the largest militaries in the world, England alone would not. If the UK broke up other nations like Japan, Germany and Brazil and India would use that as an excuse to press their case to take the UK's place amongst the other P5 members and in the General Assembly
    And London would listen to their case and veto it.

    You don't understand how this works, do you?
    If the UK breaks up the UK would no longer have the original seat as first granted to veto, a successor state would have to be chosen and England alone would have much less claim to it than Russia had in 1991 when its request to be treated as the successor state to the USSR on the UN security council was met without objection.
    Do you think this happens overnight in a vaccuum. There's a vote, the results are counted and the next day the UK ceases to exist. 🙄

    If the UK were to break up democratically it wouldn't happen overnight, it would be negotiated and agreed. Part of that agreement demanded by London would include recognising England as the successor state so that England gets the UNSC seat etc - the SNP don't want or expect that for themselves.

    Russia was accepted as continuity successor for the USSR as it was the logical successor and had half the population.

    England would be continuity successor for the UK as it is the logical successor and has 84% of the population.
    No, the UK would not cease to exist. Any more than it ceased to exist with the secession of Ireland in 1949.

    It is frustrating that people cannot grasp this basic point. Scotland would be a new country, not one of two successor states.
    The United Kingdom was created after the Union of England and Scotland in 1707, arguably it would cease to exist, being replaced by England and Wales and maybe Northern Ireland as the successor state
    No it wasn’t. That created the Kingdom of Great Britain. It was 1801 and the union with Ireland that created the United Kingdom.

    Honestly, call yourself an historian...this is so basic even the CIA gets it right. Heck, even Wikipedia does.
    Ireland left the Union 100 years, ago, so that Kingdom is no longer part of the UK, if Scotland also left which united the Kingdom of Scotland with the Kingdom of England (which includes Wales) there would be no Kingdoms left to unite as Wales is merely a Principality not a Kingdom and Northern Ireland is merely a province not a Kingdom either.
    Hyufd, I think you will find the kingdom of Ireland was redesignated the kingdom of Northern Ireland in 1927 and is still in being.

    It would be easier for you if you just accepted you were wrong and moved on, because you are and you are looking increasingly absurd.
    No, it was renamed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland rather than the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

    Northern Ireland however did not become a Kingdom in its own right, it is merely a province, the only Kingdoms left in the UK after Ireland's departure are the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Kingdom of England
    Northern Ireland is not a province. There are four provinces in Ireland: Ulster, Leinster, Connacht and (the best) Munster. None are coterminous with Northern Ireland.
    Northern Ireland is not a country or a Kingdom, the closest it is to a definition is a province or region
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom.
    Scotland is not a Kingdom.
    Wales is not a Kingdom.
    England is not a Kingdom.

    Great Britain and Northern Ireland is one United Kingdom.
    Which only came to being by uniting the Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, if only England was left there would thus be no United Kingdom left.
    The Kingdom of Northern Ireland??
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom
    Nor is England. 🤦‍♂️

    Nor is Scotland. 🤦‍♂️
    They are, just they have united together
    It's fascinating you say that, when you whole argument on the UN seat seems to be predicated on the assertion that uniting/disuniting fundamentally changes things and one cannot claim the entity that existed before is the same as the one after. And yet here uniting two kingdoms doesn't mean anything.
    If Scotland left that would be disuniting the UK, there would no longer be that union of the 2 kingdoms anymore and the UK of GB and NI that got the seat in 1945 would no longer exist
    Pick up a history book.

    There is no union of 2 kingdoms already. The 2 kingdoms were dissolved over 300 years ago.

    The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain (one single kingdom in the 18th century) and Northern Ireland anyway, Scotland doesn't enter into it.
    The 2 kingdoms were dissolved into 1 Kingdom which would cease to exist if Scotland left it, so the UK would no longer exist, with the Kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland which made up the UK with England no longer part of it.

    Same as England would cease to exist with Northumbria in the north of England, or Mercia in the Midlands or Wessex in the South chose to leave it
    No none of them would cease to exist. If Northumbria went independent the legacy state would be England.

    If Scotland goes independent the legacy state would be the United Kingdom.

    That's the way it works, unless there is no continuity state, but there would be.
    No it would not, if Northumbria went independent the legacy states would be Wessex and Mercia, there would no longer be an England.

    If Scotland went independent the legacy state would be England, Wales and NI, there would no longer be a UK
    You can not be serious!

    Where in the law are Wessex and Mercia defined as legacy states? Probably in the same place as the "kingdom of England" is defined. 🙄

    If Northern Ireland went there'd be no UK, not that it matters since GB would be the continuity of the UK. If Scotland goes the name might remain UK.
    England was only created by the unity of Northumbria with Wessex and Mercia in 953, without that union by definition there no longer is an England.

    If Scotland left there would be no UK, Northern Ireland is a province not a Kingdom as Ireland was
    No you are being preposterous, England is whatever it is. It doesn't matter what it was created with, it is an evolving creature that at the last point the Kingdom of England actually existed included Wales. If Wales goes independent does England cease to exist?

    The Kingdom of Mercia does not exist anymore. Northumbria going independent wouldn't bring it back automatically.

    The Kingdom of England does not exist anymore. Scotland going independent wouldn't bring it back automatically.
    No, England is what it is only as a union of Northumbria, Mercia and Wessex which originally created it. Without them there would no longer be an England.

    If Wales went independent the Kingdom of England would change to remove Wales but England would not cease to exist as Wales was only added to it by Edward 1st 3 centuries after the original Kingdom of England was created
    Many countries around the globe aren't what they are when they were created. That doesn't mean they ceased to be.

    England could lose Northumbria and if the rest of the country wanted to be called England and Northumbria had no issue with that there'd be no dispute. History be damned it would be part of the history books.

    Much of what made up Germany when it was founded in 1871 is not a part of modern day Germany. Parts of Germany (1871) is now in Poland, Lithuania, France and other countries. It doesn't matter, the modern state is still called Germany even if much of 1871 Germany is now in other countries.

    Germany losing elements of itself, even founding parts, didn't end the name. Nor would England losing Northumbria.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    Does anyone have any Scottish popcorn left?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    Charles said:

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    There is something rotten in the state of Scotland
    A Scotland rots from the Sturgeon down.

    I think I've got that right.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    JonathanD said:

    JonathanD said:

    Johnson, such a grifter

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1366520391200628738?s=20


    "An ally of Mr Johnson last night defended the charity plan, saying: 'Downing Street is as iconic as Windsor Castle but is in danger of becoming tatty because the Civil Service does everything on the cheap."

    What's the issue?

    Number 10 doesn't belong to Johnson, though he may live there for many, many years to come, it belongs to the state. Any refurbishments done stay with the state.

    So there's no reason why the state shouldn't pay for it.

    But if donors want to pay for it instead of the tax payer then that's fine by me. Let our taxes be spent on something else.

    What's the problem?
    lol, very good for being able to say that with a straight face.

    I think the problem is fairly obvious, especially for someone with Johnsons past performance. BJ turning this country into a third rate banana republic at speed.
    By bringing in a scheme that works for the White House?

    So the USA is a third rate banana republic?
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,671
    RobD said:

    Does anyone have any Scottish popcorn left?

    Scottish popcorn? Is that deep fried?

    (Sorry)
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Charles said:

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    There is something rotten in the state of Scotland
    A Scotland rots from the Sturgeon down.

    I think I've got that right.
    How the hell is she still in post
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    RobD said:

    Does anyone have any Scottish popcorn left?

    Scottish popcorn? Is that deep fried?

    (Sorry)
    No, just heavily redacted.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    Johnson has mostly done a good job in recent months IMO. But I still think he should resign for failing to close the borders last March/April. Sometimes one mistake eclipses everything else.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    Floater said:

    Charles said:

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    There is something rotten in the state of Scotland
    A Scotland rots from the Sturgeon down.

    I think I've got that right.
    How the hell is she still in post
    Comedy value?

    Well, someone's having a laugh.....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson has mostly done a good job in recent months IMO. But I still think he should resign for failing to close the borders last March/April. Sometimes one mistake eclipses everything else.

    The world has moved on. Vaccines are the story now and the way out of this.

    Besides he's learnt the lessons and the borders are currently closed. Its illegal to go on a holiday overseas currently, you can only travel for an "essential" reason though no doubt people take the piss.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    JonathanD said:

    Johnson, such a grifter

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1366520391200628738?s=20


    "An ally of Mr Johnson last night defended the charity plan, saying: 'Downing Street is as iconic as Windsor Castle but is in danger of becoming tatty because the Civil Service does everything on the cheap."

    What's the issue?

    Number 10 doesn't belong to Johnson, though he may live there for many, many years to come, it belongs to the state. Any refurbishments done stay with the state.

    So there's no reason why the state shouldn't pay for it.

    But if donors want to pay for it instead of the tax payer then that's fine by me. Let our taxes be spent on something else.

    What's the problem?
    I don't think the story

    JonathanD said:

    JonathanD said:

    Johnson, such a grifter

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1366520391200628738?s=20


    "An ally of Mr Johnson last night defended the charity plan, saying: 'Downing Street is as iconic as Windsor Castle but is in danger of becoming tatty because the Civil Service does everything on the cheap."

    What's the issue?

    Number 10 doesn't belong to Johnson, though he may live there for many, many years to come, it belongs to the state. Any refurbishments done stay with the state.

    So there's no reason why the state shouldn't pay for it.

    But if donors want to pay for it instead of the tax payer then that's fine by me. Let our taxes be spent on something else.

    What's the problem?
    lol, very good for being able to say that with a straight face.

    I think the problem is fairly obvious, especially for someone with Johnsons past performance. BJ turning this country into a third rate banana republic at speed.
    By bringing in a scheme that works for the White House?

    So the USA is a third rate banana republic?
    Depends. Was it a scheme introduced by Trump?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210

    Nigelb said:

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    What are the UK government procedures for retaining notes of such meetings ?

    In the US there’s a legal obligation to retain such written records - what are the rules here ?
    I believe the rule is that retention should happen for at least 7 years since the last update in a record/journal etc, but there's a list of things that need to be kept for National Archives records.

    There's also this.

    Processes must be in place to make sure that records pending audit, litigation or investigation are not destroyed.
    That all makes sense. This is the National Archives guidance document:
    https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/information-management/popapersguidance2009.pdf

    And, of course, there's also the Ministerial Code.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    alex_ said:

    JonathanD said:

    Johnson, such a grifter

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1366520391200628738?s=20


    "An ally of Mr Johnson last night defended the charity plan, saying: 'Downing Street is as iconic as Windsor Castle but is in danger of becoming tatty because the Civil Service does everything on the cheap."

    What's the issue?

    Number 10 doesn't belong to Johnson, though he may live there for many, many years to come, it belongs to the state. Any refurbishments done stay with the state.

    So there's no reason why the state shouldn't pay for it.

    But if donors want to pay for it instead of the tax payer then that's fine by me. Let our taxes be spent on something else.

    What's the problem?
    I don't think the story

    JonathanD said:

    JonathanD said:

    Johnson, such a grifter

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1366520391200628738?s=20


    "An ally of Mr Johnson last night defended the charity plan, saying: 'Downing Street is as iconic as Windsor Castle but is in danger of becoming tatty because the Civil Service does everything on the cheap."

    What's the issue?

    Number 10 doesn't belong to Johnson, though he may live there for many, many years to come, it belongs to the state. Any refurbishments done stay with the state.

    So there's no reason why the state shouldn't pay for it.

    But if donors want to pay for it instead of the tax payer then that's fine by me. Let our taxes be spent on something else.

    What's the problem?
    lol, very good for being able to say that with a straight face.

    I think the problem is fairly obvious, especially for someone with Johnsons past performance. BJ turning this country into a third rate banana republic at speed.
    By bringing in a scheme that works for the White House?

    So the USA is a third rate banana republic?
    Depends. Was it a scheme introduced by Trump?
    No.

    Originally LBJ in the 60s, but the current scheme was largely revamped by First Lady Carter in the 70s.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,101

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1366448131496361986?s=20


    So it had to be gouged out of him, and he only did it at the last minute, to save his skin. Do the SNP realise how bad this looks?!

    The whole thing is unbelievable and if the SNP hold onto their popularity they will be very lucky
    The SNP are the party of independence. Lots and lots and lots of people want independence. So they'll keep voting for the SNP regardless of the circumstances.

    This is uncontroversial. So long as the core policy remains in place they can get away with anything, and still scoop up at least 45% of the constituency vote.
    Time will tell but as has been pointed out a considerable number of SNP supporters were formerly labour and support the union, they just thought the SNP would govern Scotland better

    It is now uncertain just how many of these supporters will stay will the SNP and as I have said before, some of my Scots family members are SNP supporters but also pro the Union
    Yes, after many years of appearing sensible and competent compared to Westminster, suddenly the SNP look hugely inept, riven with internal wars, and incapable of being honest. This may make voters scrutinise the rest of their record, and think Hmmm, because their record is not very good

    That's the big damage from Salmondgate. It removes the SNP's and Sturgeon's supposed USP: calm and measured governance.
    Tories have an interesting line to tread on all this. They need to damage the SNP to the extent that it really hurts independence. But not to the extent that it trashes the SNP so that Labour can start getting material numbers of Westminster seats. A seriously wounded Sturgeon still in place is probably Boris's best outcome.
    Any true Tory would put Britain before party-politics and prefer to see Scotland returning Labour MPs than SNP MPs.
    Our electoral system encourages broad coalitions within the same party, rather than governing coalitions between parties. Whether you think FPTP is any good or not, that is one of its effects.

    There is no reason to suppose that all Conservatives, or Conservative voters, are necessarily devout Unionists.

    After all, there's rather a lot to like for the English right if the Union collapses. The departure of Scotland kicks away Labour's Zimmer frame. Much is made of how the Scottish Tories saved Theresa May's bacon in 2017, but if Scotland had returned no MPs at all then even she would've commanded an outright majority.
    The UK would also risk its place as a permanent member on the UN Security Council if it broke up and it would project a weaker image of the rUK internationally. No genuine Tory would ever back Scottish independence (plus Labour would still have won a majority in England and Wales in 1997, 2001 and 2005 anyway)
    Are the voters really that bothered about the Security Council seat? What use is it?

    Tony Blair's Labour Party was a very different beast to that which came within a hair's breadth of inflicting Jeremy Corbyn upon us. There is a perfectly plausible argument to be advanced that the end of the Union with (predominantly left-wing) Scotland is a price well worth paying, if it is certain or near certain to permanently reduce the hard left to a harmless rump. It might also, from a certain point of view, be a sad state of affairs, and you might dislike the whole idea intensely, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a certain logic to the position.

    Besides, Labour carefully crafted devolution to play to its political advantage, or what ultimately transpired to be a shockingly complacent and naive interpretation thereof. It would serve the party right if it were ultimately to be ruined by the project.
    I don't care what the voters views on it are, they are mostly more interested in domestic policy but the fact is our permanent membership of it is a key component of our power and prestige internationally, something it is the role of the Conservative and Unionist Party to preserve.

    Wilson also would have won in England in 1966 and England and Wales in 1964 and October 1974 and Attlee would have won in England alone in 1945 and England and Wales in 1950 too, it would be an unforgiveable folly for any Tory leader to lose Scotland, let alone advocate for it.

    That does not mean an English Parliament or regional assemblies cannot be considered too
    If Scotland goes independent England would claim to be the successor to the United Kingdom and get the permanent security council seat.

    Just as Russia already did the same thing when the USSR broke up. Russia was not the original permanent nation, the USSR was and the USSR no longer exists.

    Westminster would ensure this is resolved in the UN before Scotland goes independent and the UK has the right to veto any decision other than recognising England as the successor nation.
    Russia alone still had a population of over 100 million and one of the largest militaries in the world, England alone would not. If the UK broke up other nations like Japan, Germany and Brazil and India would use that as an excuse to press their case to take the UK's place amongst the other P5 members and in the General Assembly
    And London would listen to their case and veto it.

    You don't understand how this works, do you?
    If the UK breaks up the UK would no longer have the original seat as first granted to veto, a successor state would have to be chosen and England alone would have much less claim to it than Russia had in 1991 when its request to be treated as the successor state to the USSR on the UN security council was met without objection.
    Do you think this happens overnight in a vaccuum. There's a vote, the results are counted and the next day the UK ceases to exist. 🙄

    If the UK were to break up democratically it wouldn't happen overnight, it would be negotiated and agreed. Part of that agreement demanded by London would include recognising England as the successor state so that England gets the UNSC seat etc - the SNP don't want or expect that for themselves.

    Russia was accepted as continuity successor for the USSR as it was the logical successor and had half the population.

    England would be continuity successor for the UK as it is the logical successor and has 84% of the population.
    No, the UK would not cease to exist. Any more than it ceased to exist with the secession of Ireland in 1949.

    It is frustrating that people cannot grasp this basic point. Scotland would be a new country, not one of two successor states.
    The United Kingdom was created after the Union of England and Scotland in 1707, arguably it would cease to exist, being replaced by England and Wales and maybe Northern Ireland as the successor state
    No it wasn’t. That created the Kingdom of Great Britain. It was 1801 and the union with Ireland that created the United Kingdom.

    Honestly, call yourself an historian...this is so basic even the CIA gets it right. Heck, even Wikipedia does.
    Ireland left the Union 100 years, ago, so that Kingdom is no longer part of the UK, if Scotland also left which united the Kingdom of Scotland with the Kingdom of England (which includes Wales) there would be no Kingdoms left to unite as Wales is merely a Principality not a Kingdom and Northern Ireland is merely a province not a Kingdom either.
    Hyufd, I think you will find the kingdom of Ireland was redesignated the kingdom of Northern Ireland in 1927 and is still in being.

    It would be easier for you if you just accepted you were wrong and moved on, because you are and you are looking increasingly absurd.
    No, it was renamed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland rather than the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

    Northern Ireland however did not become a Kingdom in its own right, it is merely a province, the only Kingdoms left in the UK after Ireland's departure are the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Kingdom of England
    Northern Ireland is not a province. There are four provinces in Ireland: Ulster, Leinster, Connacht and (the best) Munster. None are coterminous with Northern Ireland.
    Northern Ireland is not a country or a Kingdom, the closest it is to a definition is a province or region
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom.
    Scotland is not a Kingdom.
    Wales is not a Kingdom.
    England is not a Kingdom.

    Great Britain and Northern Ireland is one United Kingdom.
    Which only came to being by uniting the Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, if only England was left there would thus be no United Kingdom left.
    The Kingdom of Northern Ireland??
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom
    Nor is England. 🤦‍♂️

    Nor is Scotland. 🤦‍♂️
    They are, just they have united together
    It's fascinating you say that, when you whole argument on the UN seat seems to be predicated on the assertion that uniting/disuniting fundamentally changes things and one cannot claim the entity that existed before is the same as the one after. And yet here uniting two kingdoms doesn't mean anything.
    If Scotland left that would be disuniting the UK, there would no longer be that union of the 2 kingdoms anymore and the UK of GB and NI that got the seat in 1945 would no longer exist
    Pick up a history book.

    There is no union of 2 kingdoms already. The 2 kingdoms were dissolved over 300 years ago.

    The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain (one single kingdom in the 18th century) and Northern Ireland anyway, Scotland doesn't enter into it.
    The 2 kingdoms were dissolved into 1 Kingdom which would cease to exist if Scotland left it, so the UK would no longer exist, with the Kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland which made up the UK with England no longer part of it.

    Same as England would cease to exist with Northumbria in the north of England, or Mercia in the Midlands or Wessex in the South chose to leave it
    No none of them would cease to exist. If Northumbria went independent the legacy state would be England.

    If Scotland goes independent the legacy state would be the United Kingdom.

    That's the way it works, unless there is no continuity state, but there would be.
    No it would not, if Northumbria went independent the legacy states would be Wessex and Mercia, there would no longer be an England.

    If Scotland went independent the legacy state would be England, Wales and NI, there would no longer be a UK
    You can not be serious!

    Where in the law are Wessex and Mercia defined as legacy states? Probably in the same place as the "kingdom of England" is defined. 🙄

    If Northern Ireland went there'd be no UK, not that it matters since GB would be the continuity of the UK. If Scotland goes the name might remain UK.
    England was only created by the unity of Northumbria with Wessex and Mercia in 953, without that union by definition there no longer is an England.

    If Scotland left there would be no UK, Northern Ireland is a province not a Kingdom as Ireland was
    No you are being preposterous, England is whatever it is. It doesn't matter what it was created with, it is an evolving creature that at the last point the Kingdom of England actually existed included Wales. If Wales goes independent does England cease to exist?

    The Kingdom of Mercia does not exist anymore. Northumbria going independent wouldn't bring it back automatically.

    The Kingdom of England does not exist anymore. Scotland going independent wouldn't bring it back automatically.
    No, England is what it is only as a union of Northumbria, Mercia and Wessex which originally created it. Without them there would no longer be an England.

    If Wales went independent the Kingdom of England would change to remove Wales but England would not cease to exist as Wales was only added to it by Edward 1st 3 centuries after the original Kingdom of England was created
    Many countries around the globe aren't what they are when they were created. That doesn't mean they ceased to be.

    England could lose Northumbria and if the rest of the country wanted to be called England and Northumbria had no issue with that there'd be no dispute. History be damned it would be part of the history books.

    Much of what made up Germany when it was founded in 1871 is not a part of modern day Germany. Parts of Germany (1871) is now in Poland, Lithuania, France and other countries. It doesn't matter, the modern state is still called Germany even if much of 1871 Germany is now in other countries.

    Germany losing elements of itself, even founding parts, didn't end the name. Nor would England losing Northumbria.
    No, if you lose the core foundations of your nation you are no longer a nation.

    Germany today has at least part of all the Kingdoms, Duchies and cities that originally created it in 1871 and in most cases all of them.

    If England however lost all of the old Northumbria, Wessex or Mercia it would no longer be England, much as the United States would no longer really be the USA if it lost the 13 colonies that originally created it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210

    JonathanD said:

    JonathanD said:

    Johnson, such a grifter

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1366520391200628738?s=20


    "An ally of Mr Johnson last night defended the charity plan, saying: 'Downing Street is as iconic as Windsor Castle but is in danger of becoming tatty because the Civil Service does everything on the cheap."

    What's the issue?

    Number 10 doesn't belong to Johnson, though he may live there for many, many years to come, it belongs to the state. Any refurbishments done stay with the state.

    So there's no reason why the state shouldn't pay for it.

    But if donors want to pay for it instead of the tax payer then that's fine by me. Let our taxes be spent on something else.

    What's the problem?
    lol, very good for being able to say that with a straight face.

    I think the problem is fairly obvious, especially for someone with Johnsons past performance. BJ turning this country into a third rate banana republic at speed.
    By bringing in a scheme that works for the White House?

    So the USA is a third rate banana republic?
    Looking at their campaign finance laws, yes.
    Or would you like to adopt those, too ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    There has to be a material risk that Sturgeon ends up a laughing stock.

    As Salmond laughs last, whilst feeding from the extensive cold buffet of revenge.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited March 2021
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1366448131496361986?s=20


    So it had to be gouged out of him, and he only did it at the last minute, to save his skin. Do the SNP realise how bad this looks?!

    The whole thing is unbelievable and if the SNP hold onto their popularity they will be very lucky
    The SNP are the party of independence. Lots and lots and lots of people want independence. So they'll keep voting for the SNP regardless of the circumstances.

    This is uncontroversial. So long as the core policy remains in place they can get away with anything, and still scoop up at least 45% of the constituency vote.
    Time will tell but as has been pointed out a considerable number of SNP supporters were formerly labour and support the union, they just thought the SNP would govern Scotland better

    It is now uncertain just how many of these supporters will stay will the SNP and as I have said before, some of my Scots family members are SNP supporters but also pro the Union
    Yes, after many years of appearing sensible and competent compared to Westminster, suddenly the SNP look hugely inept, riven with internal wars, and incapable of being honest. This may make voters scrutinise the rest of their record, and think Hmmm, because their record is not very good

    That's the big damage from Salmondgate. It removes the SNP's and Sturgeon's supposed USP: calm and measured governance.
    Tories have an interesting line to tread on all this. They need to damage the SNP to the extent that it really hurts independence. But not to the extent that it trashes the SNP so that Labour can start getting material numbers of Westminster seats. A seriously wounded Sturgeon still in place is probably Boris's best outcome.
    Any true Tory would put Britain before party-politics and prefer to see Scotland returning Labour MPs than SNP MPs.
    Our electoral system encourages broad coalitions within the same party, rather than governing coalitions between parties. Whether you think FPTP is any good or not, that is one of its effects.

    There is no reason to suppose that all Conservatives, or Conservative voters, are necessarily devout Unionists.

    After all, there's rather a lot to like for the English right if the Union collapses. The departure of Scotland kicks away Labour's Zimmer frame. Much is made of how the Scottish Tories saved Theresa May's bacon in 2017, but if Scotland had returned no MPs at all then even she would've commanded an outright majority.
    The UK would also risk its place as a permanent member on the UN Security Council if it broke up and it would project a weaker image of the rUK internationally. No genuine Tory would ever back Scottish independence (plus Labour would still have won a majority in England and Wales in 1997, 2001 and 2005 anyway)
    Are the voters really that bothered about the Security Council seat? What use is it?

    Tony Blair's Labour Party was a very different beast to that which came within a hair's breadth of inflicting Jeremy Corbyn upon us. There is a perfectly plausible argument to be advanced that the end of the Union with (predominantly left-wing) Scotland is a price well worth paying, if it is certain or near certain to permanently reduce the hard left to a harmless rump. It might also, from a certain point of view, be a sad state of affairs, and you might dislike the whole idea intensely, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a certain logic to the position.

    Besides, Labour carefully crafted devolution to play to its political advantage, or what ultimately transpired to be a shockingly complacent and naive interpretation thereof. It would serve the party right if it were ultimately to be ruined by the project.
    I don't care what the voters views on it are, they are mostly more interested in domestic policy but the fact is our permanent membership of it is a key component of our power and prestige internationally, something it is the role of the Conservative and Unionist Party to preserve.

    Wilson also would have won in England in 1966 and England and Wales in 1964 and October 1974 and Attlee would have won in England alone in 1945 and England and Wales in 1950 too, it would be an unforgiveable folly for any Tory leader to lose Scotland, let alone advocate for it.

    That does not mean an English Parliament or regional assemblies cannot be considered too
    If Scotland goes independent England would claim to be the successor to the United Kingdom and get the permanent security council seat.

    Just as Russia already did the same thing when the USSR broke up. Russia was not the original permanent nation, the USSR was and the USSR no longer exists.

    Westminster would ensure this is resolved in the UN before Scotland goes independent and the UK has the right to veto any decision other than recognising England as the successor nation.
    Russia alone still had a population of over 100 million and one of the largest militaries in the world, England alone would not. If the UK broke up other nations like Japan, Germany and Brazil and India would use that as an excuse to press their case to take the UK's place amongst the other P5 members and in the General Assembly
    And London would listen to their case and veto it.

    You don't understand how this works, do you?
    If the UK breaks up the UK would no longer have the original seat as first granted to veto, a successor state would have to be chosen and England alone would have much less claim to it than Russia had in 1991 when its request to be treated as the successor state to the USSR on the UN security council was met without objection.
    Do you think this happens overnight in a vaccuum. There's a vote, the results are counted and the next day the UK ceases to exist. 🙄

    If the UK were to break up democratically it wouldn't happen overnight, it would be negotiated and agreed. Part of that agreement demanded by London would include recognising England as the successor state so that England gets the UNSC seat etc - the SNP don't want or expect that for themselves.

    Russia was accepted as continuity successor for the USSR as it was the logical successor and had half the population.

    England would be continuity successor for the UK as it is the logical successor and has 84% of the population.
    No, the UK would not cease to exist. Any more than it ceased to exist with the secession of Ireland in 1949.

    It is frustrating that people cannot grasp this basic point. Scotland would be a new country, not one of two successor states.
    The United Kingdom was created after the Union of England and Scotland in 1707, arguably it would cease to exist, being replaced by England and Wales and maybe Northern Ireland as the successor state
    No it wasn’t. That created the Kingdom of Great Britain. It was 1801 and the union with Ireland that created the United Kingdom.

    Honestly, call yourself an historian...this is so basic even the CIA gets it right. Heck, even Wikipedia does.
    Ireland left the Union 100 years, ago, so that Kingdom is no longer part of the UK, if Scotland also left which united the Kingdom of Scotland with the Kingdom of England (which includes Wales) there would be no Kingdoms left to unite as Wales is merely a Principality not a Kingdom and Northern Ireland is merely a province not a Kingdom either.
    Hyufd, I think you will find the kingdom of Ireland was redesignated the kingdom of Northern Ireland in 1927 and is still in being.

    It would be easier for you if you just accepted you were wrong and moved on, because you are and you are looking increasingly absurd.
    No, it was renamed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland rather than the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

    Northern Ireland however did not become a Kingdom in its own right, it is merely a province, the only Kingdoms left in the UK after Ireland's departure are the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Kingdom of England
    Northern Ireland is not a province. There are four provinces in Ireland: Ulster, Leinster, Connacht and (the best) Munster. None are coterminous with Northern Ireland.
    Northern Ireland is not a country or a Kingdom, the closest it is to a definition is a province or region
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom.
    Scotland is not a Kingdom.
    Wales is not a Kingdom.
    England is not a Kingdom.

    Great Britain and Northern Ireland is one United Kingdom.
    Which only came to being by uniting the Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, if only England was left there would thus be no United Kingdom left.
    The Kingdom of Northern Ireland??
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom
    Nor is England. 🤦‍♂️

    Nor is Scotland. 🤦‍♂️
    They are, just they have united together
    It's fascinating you say that, when you whole argument on the UN seat seems to be predicated on the assertion that uniting/disuniting fundamentally changes things and one cannot claim the entity that existed before is the same as the one after. And yet here uniting two kingdoms doesn't mean anything.
    If Scotland left that would be disuniting the UK, there would no longer be that union of the 2 kingdoms anymore and the UK of GB and NI that got the seat in 1945 would no longer exist
    Pick up a history book.

    There is no union of 2 kingdoms already. The 2 kingdoms were dissolved over 300 years ago.

    The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain (one single kingdom in the 18th century) and Northern Ireland anyway, Scotland doesn't enter into it.
    The 2 kingdoms were dissolved into 1 Kingdom which would cease to exist if Scotland left it, so the UK would no longer exist, with the Kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland which made up the UK with England no longer part of it.

    Same as England would cease to exist with Northumbria in the north of England, or Mercia in the Midlands or Wessex in the South chose to leave it
    No none of them would cease to exist. If Northumbria went independent the legacy state would be England.

    If Scotland goes independent the legacy state would be the United Kingdom.

    That's the way it works, unless there is no continuity state, but there would be.
    No it would not, if Northumbria went independent the legacy states would be Wessex and Mercia, there would no longer be an England.

    If Scotland went independent the legacy state would be England, Wales and NI, there would no longer be a UK
    You can not be serious!

    Where in the law are Wessex and Mercia defined as legacy states? Probably in the same place as the "kingdom of England" is defined. 🙄

    If Northern Ireland went there'd be no UK, not that it matters since GB would be the continuity of the UK. If Scotland goes the name might remain UK.
    England was only created by the unity of Northumbria with Wessex and Mercia in 953, without that union by definition there no longer is an England.

    If Scotland left there would be no UK, Northern Ireland is a province not a Kingdom as Ireland was
    No you are being preposterous, England is whatever it is. It doesn't matter what it was created with, it is an evolving creature that at the last point the Kingdom of England actually existed included Wales. If Wales goes independent does England cease to exist?

    The Kingdom of Mercia does not exist anymore. Northumbria going independent wouldn't bring it back automatically.

    The Kingdom of England does not exist anymore. Scotland going independent wouldn't bring it back automatically.
    No, England is what it is only as a union of Northumbria, Mercia and Wessex which originally created it. Without them there would no longer be an England.

    If Wales went independent the Kingdom of England would change to remove Wales but England would not cease to exist as Wales was only added to it by Edward 1st 3 centuries after the original Kingdom of England was created
    Many countries around the globe aren't what they are when they were created. That doesn't mean they ceased to be.

    England could lose Northumbria and if the rest of the country wanted to be called England and Northumbria had no issue with that there'd be no dispute. History be damned it would be part of the history books.

    Much of what made up Germany when it was founded in 1871 is not a part of modern day Germany. Parts of Germany (1871) is now in Poland, Lithuania, France and other countries. It doesn't matter, the modern state is still called Germany even if much of 1871 Germany is now in other countries.

    Germany losing elements of itself, even founding parts, didn't end the name. Nor would England losing Northumbria.
    No, if you lose the core foundations of your nation you are no longer a nation.

    Germany today has at least part of all the Kingdoms, Duchies and cities that originally created it in 1871 and in most cases all of them.

    If England however lost all of the old Northumbria, Wessex or Mercia it would no longer be England, much as the United States would no longer really be the USA if it lost the 13 colonies that originally created it.
    You're stark raving mad.

    The idea England could be compelled to become the Kingdom of Mercia is the most delusional thing I think I've ever heard you say - and that's a lot. All because you're too pigheaded stubborn to admit you're wrong.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1366448131496361986?s=20


    So it had to be gouged out of him, and he only did it at the last minute, to save his skin. Do the SNP realise how bad this looks?!

    The whole thing is unbelievable and if the SNP hold onto their popularity they will be very lucky
    The SNP are the party of independence. Lots and lots and lots of people want independence. So they'll keep voting for the SNP regardless of the circumstances.

    This is uncontroversial. So long as the core policy remains in place they can get away with anything, and still scoop up at least 45% of the constituency vote.
    Time will tell but as has been pointed out a considerable number of SNP supporters were formerly labour and support the union, they just thought the SNP would govern Scotland better

    It is now uncertain just how many of these supporters will stay will the SNP and as I have said before, some of my Scots family members are SNP supporters but also pro the Union
    Yes, after many years of appearing sensible and competent compared to Westminster, suddenly the SNP look hugely inept, riven with internal wars, and incapable of being honest. This may make voters scrutinise the rest of their record, and think Hmmm, because their record is not very good

    That's the big damage from Salmondgate. It removes the SNP's and Sturgeon's supposed USP: calm and measured governance.
    Tories have an interesting line to tread on all this. They need to damage the SNP to the extent that it really hurts independence. But not to the extent that it trashes the SNP so that Labour can start getting material numbers of Westminster seats. A seriously wounded Sturgeon still in place is probably Boris's best outcome.
    Any true Tory would put Britain before party-politics and prefer to see Scotland returning Labour MPs than SNP MPs.
    Our electoral system encourages broad coalitions within the same party, rather than governing coalitions between parties. Whether you think FPTP is any good or not, that is one of its effects.

    There is no reason to suppose that all Conservatives, or Conservative voters, are necessarily devout Unionists.

    After all, there's rather a lot to like for the English right if the Union collapses. The departure of Scotland kicks away Labour's Zimmer frame. Much is made of how the Scottish Tories saved Theresa May's bacon in 2017, but if Scotland had returned no MPs at all then even she would've commanded an outright majority.
    The UK would also risk its place as a permanent member on the UN Security Council if it broke up and it would project a weaker image of the rUK internationally. No genuine Tory would ever back Scottish independence (plus Labour would still have won a majority in England and Wales in 1997, 2001 and 2005 anyway)
    Are the voters really that bothered about the Security Council seat? What use is it?

    Tony Blair's Labour Party was a very different beast to that which came within a hair's breadth of inflicting Jeremy Corbyn upon us. There is a perfectly plausible argument to be advanced that the end of the Union with (predominantly left-wing) Scotland is a price well worth paying, if it is certain or near certain to permanently reduce the hard left to a harmless rump. It might also, from a certain point of view, be a sad state of affairs, and you might dislike the whole idea intensely, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a certain logic to the position.

    Besides, Labour carefully crafted devolution to play to its political advantage, or what ultimately transpired to be a shockingly complacent and naive interpretation thereof. It would serve the party right if it were ultimately to be ruined by the project.
    I don't care what the voters views on it are, they are mostly more interested in domestic policy but the fact is our permanent membership of it is a key component of our power and prestige internationally, something it is the role of the Conservative and Unionist Party to preserve.

    Wilson also would have won in England in 1966 and England and Wales in 1964 and October 1974 and Attlee would have won in England alone in 1945 and England and Wales in 1950 too, it would be an unforgiveable folly for any Tory leader to lose Scotland, let alone advocate for it.

    That does not mean an English Parliament or regional assemblies cannot be considered too
    If Scotland goes independent England would claim to be the successor to the United Kingdom and get the permanent security council seat.

    Just as Russia already did the same thing when the USSR broke up. Russia was not the original permanent nation, the USSR was and the USSR no longer exists.

    Westminster would ensure this is resolved in the UN before Scotland goes independent and the UK has the right to veto any decision other than recognising England as the successor nation.
    Russia alone still had a population of over 100 million and one of the largest militaries in the world, England alone would not. If the UK broke up other nations like Japan, Germany and Brazil and India would use that as an excuse to press their case to take the UK's place amongst the other P5 members and in the General Assembly
    And London would listen to their case and veto it.

    You don't understand how this works, do you?
    If the UK breaks up the UK would no longer have the original seat as first granted to veto, a successor state would have to be chosen and England alone would have much less claim to it than Russia had in 1991 when its request to be treated as the successor state to the USSR on the UN security council was met without objection.
    Do you think this happens overnight in a vaccuum. There's a vote, the results are counted and the next day the UK ceases to exist. 🙄

    If the UK were to break up democratically it wouldn't happen overnight, it would be negotiated and agreed. Part of that agreement demanded by London would include recognising England as the successor state so that England gets the UNSC seat etc - the SNP don't want or expect that for themselves.

    Russia was accepted as continuity successor for the USSR as it was the logical successor and had half the population.

    England would be continuity successor for the UK as it is the logical successor and has 84% of the population.
    No, the UK would not cease to exist. Any more than it ceased to exist with the secession of Ireland in 1949.

    It is frustrating that people cannot grasp this basic point. Scotland would be a new country, not one of two successor states.
    The United Kingdom was created after the Union of England and Scotland in 1707, arguably it would cease to exist, being replaced by England and Wales and maybe Northern Ireland as the successor state
    No it wasn’t. That created the Kingdom of Great Britain. It was 1801 and the union with Ireland that created the United Kingdom.

    Honestly, call yourself an historian...this is so basic even the CIA gets it right. Heck, even Wikipedia does.
    Ireland left the Union 100 years, ago, so that Kingdom is no longer part of the UK, if Scotland also left which united the Kingdom of Scotland with the Kingdom of England (which includes Wales) there would be no Kingdoms left to unite as Wales is merely a Principality not a Kingdom and Northern Ireland is merely a province not a Kingdom either.
    Hyufd, I think you will find the kingdom of Ireland was redesignated the kingdom of Northern Ireland in 1927 and is still in being.

    It would be easier for you if you just accepted you were wrong and moved on, because you are and you are looking increasingly absurd.
    No, it was renamed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland rather than the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

    Northern Ireland however did not become a Kingdom in its own right, it is merely a province, the only Kingdoms left in the UK after Ireland's departure are the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Kingdom of England
    Northern Ireland is not a province. There are four provinces in Ireland: Ulster, Leinster, Connacht and (the best) Munster. None are coterminous with Northern Ireland.
    Northern Ireland is not a country or a Kingdom, the closest it is to a definition is a province or region
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom.
    Scotland is not a Kingdom.
    Wales is not a Kingdom.
    England is not a Kingdom.

    Great Britain and Northern Ireland is one United Kingdom.
    Which only came to being by uniting the Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, if only England was left there would thus be no United Kingdom left.
    The Kingdom of Northern Ireland??
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom
    Nor is England. 🤦‍♂️

    Nor is Scotland. 🤦‍♂️
    They are, just they have united together
    It's fascinating you say that, when you whole argument on the UN seat seems to be predicated on the assertion that uniting/disuniting fundamentally changes things and one cannot claim the entity that existed before is the same as the one after. And yet here uniting two kingdoms doesn't mean anything.
    If Scotland left that would be disuniting the UK, there would no longer be that union of the 2 kingdoms anymore and the UK of GB and NI that got the seat in 1945 would no longer exist
    Pick up a history book.

    There is no union of 2 kingdoms already. The 2 kingdoms were dissolved over 300 years ago.

    The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain (one single kingdom in the 18th century) and Northern Ireland anyway, Scotland doesn't enter into it.
    The 2 kingdoms were dissolved into 1 Kingdom which would cease to exist if Scotland left it, so the UK would no longer exist, with the Kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland which made up the UK with England no longer part of it.

    Same as England would cease to exist with Northumbria in the north of England, or Mercia in the Midlands or Wessex in the South chose to leave it
    No none of them would cease to exist. If Northumbria went independent the legacy state would be England.

    If Scotland goes independent the legacy state would be the United Kingdom.

    That's the way it works, unless there is no continuity state, but there would be.
    No it would not, if Northumbria went independent the legacy states would be Wessex and Mercia, there would no longer be an England.

    If Scotland went independent the legacy state would be England, Wales and NI, there would no longer be a UK
    You can not be serious!

    Where in the law are Wessex and Mercia defined as legacy states? Probably in the same place as the "kingdom of England" is defined. 🙄

    If Northern Ireland went there'd be no UK, not that it matters since GB would be the continuity of the UK. If Scotland goes the name might remain UK.
    England was only created by the unity of Northumbria with Wessex and Mercia in 953, without that union by definition there no longer is an England.

    If Scotland left there would be no UK, Northern Ireland is a province not a Kingdom as Ireland was
    No you are being preposterous, England is whatever it is. It doesn't matter what it was created with, it is an evolving creature that at the last point the Kingdom of England actually existed included Wales. If Wales goes independent does England cease to exist?

    The Kingdom of Mercia does not exist anymore. Northumbria going independent wouldn't bring it back automatically.

    The Kingdom of England does not exist anymore. Scotland going independent wouldn't bring it back automatically.
    No, England is what it is only as a union of Northumbria, Mercia and Wessex which originally created it. Without them there would no longer be an England.

    If Wales went independent the Kingdom of England would change to remove Wales but England would not cease to exist as Wales was only added to it by Edward 1st 3 centuries after the original Kingdom of England was created
    Many countries around the globe aren't what they are when they were created. That doesn't mean they ceased to be.

    England could lose Northumbria and if the rest of the country wanted to be called England and Northumbria had no issue with that there'd be no dispute. History be damned it would be part of the history books.

    Much of what made up Germany when it was founded in 1871 is not a part of modern day Germany. Parts of Germany (1871) is now in Poland, Lithuania, France and other countries. It doesn't matter, the modern state is still called Germany even if much of 1871 Germany is now in other countries.

    Germany losing elements of itself, even founding parts, didn't end the name. Nor would England losing Northumbria.
    No, if you lose the core foundations of your nation you are no longer a nation.

    Germany today has at least part of all the Kingdoms, Duchies and cities that originally created it in 1871 and in most cases all of them.

    If England however lost all of the old Northumbria, Wessex or Mercia it would no longer be England, much as the United States would no longer really be the USA if it lost the 13 colonies that originally created it.
    You're stark raving mad.

    The idea England could be compelled to become the Kingdom of Mercia is the most delusional thing I think I've ever heard you say - and that's a lot. All because you're too pigheaded stubborn to admit you're wrong.
    He's just trolling you.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1366448131496361986?s=20


    So it had to be gouged out of him, and he only did it at the last minute, to save his skin. Do the SNP realise how bad this looks?!

    The whole thing is unbelievable and if the SNP hold onto their popularity they will be very lucky
    The SNP are the party of independence. Lots and lots and lots of people want independence. So they'll keep voting for the SNP regardless of the circumstances.

    This is uncontroversial. So long as the core policy remains in place they can get away with anything, and still scoop up at least 45% of the constituency vote.
    Time will tell but as has been pointed out a considerable number of SNP supporters were formerly labour and support the union, they just thought the SNP would govern Scotland better

    It is now uncertain just how many of these supporters will stay will the SNP and as I have said before, some of my Scots family members are SNP supporters but also pro the Union
    Yes, after many years of appearing sensible and competent compared to Westminster, suddenly the SNP look hugely inept, riven with internal wars, and incapable of being honest. This may make voters scrutinise the rest of their record, and think Hmmm, because their record is not very good

    That's the big damage from Salmondgate. It removes the SNP's and Sturgeon's supposed USP: calm and measured governance.
    Tories have an interesting line to tread on all this. They need to damage the SNP to the extent that it really hurts independence. But not to the extent that it trashes the SNP so that Labour can start getting material numbers of Westminster seats. A seriously wounded Sturgeon still in place is probably Boris's best outcome.
    Any true Tory would put Britain before party-politics and prefer to see Scotland returning Labour MPs than SNP MPs.
    Our electoral system encourages broad coalitions within the same party, rather than governing coalitions between parties. Whether you think FPTP is any good or not, that is one of its effects.

    There is no reason to suppose that all Conservatives, or Conservative voters, are necessarily devout Unionists.

    After all, there's rather a lot to like for the English right if the Union collapses. The departure of Scotland kicks away Labour's Zimmer frame. Much is made of how the Scottish Tories saved Theresa May's bacon in 2017, but if Scotland had returned no MPs at all then even she would've commanded an outright majority.
    The UK would also risk its place as a permanent member on the UN Security Council if it broke up and it would project a weaker image of the rUK internationally. No genuine Tory would ever back Scottish independence (plus Labour would still have won a majority in England and Wales in 1997, 2001 and 2005 anyway)
    Are the voters really that bothered about the Security Council seat? What use is it?

    Tony Blair's Labour Party was a very different beast to that which came within a hair's breadth of inflicting Jeremy Corbyn upon us. There is a perfectly plausible argument to be advanced that the end of the Union with (predominantly left-wing) Scotland is a price well worth paying, if it is certain or near certain to permanently reduce the hard left to a harmless rump. It might also, from a certain point of view, be a sad state of affairs, and you might dislike the whole idea intensely, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a certain logic to the position.

    Besides, Labour carefully crafted devolution to play to its political advantage, or what ultimately transpired to be a shockingly complacent and naive interpretation thereof. It would serve the party right if it were ultimately to be ruined by the project.
    I don't care what the voters views on it are, they are mostly more interested in domestic policy but the fact is our permanent membership of it is a key component of our power and prestige internationally, something it is the role of the Conservative and Unionist Party to preserve.

    Wilson also would have won in England in 1966 and England and Wales in 1964 and October 1974 and Attlee would have won in England alone in 1945 and England and Wales in 1950 too, it would be an unforgiveable folly for any Tory leader to lose Scotland, let alone advocate for it.

    That does not mean an English Parliament or regional assemblies cannot be considered too
    If Scotland goes independent England would claim to be the successor to the United Kingdom and get the permanent security council seat.

    Just as Russia already did the same thing when the USSR broke up. Russia was not the original permanent nation, the USSR was and the USSR no longer exists.

    Westminster would ensure this is resolved in the UN before Scotland goes independent and the UK has the right to veto any decision other than recognising England as the successor nation.
    Russia alone still had a population of over 100 million and one of the largest militaries in the world, England alone would not. If the UK broke up other nations like Japan, Germany and Brazil and India would use that as an excuse to press their case to take the UK's place amongst the other P5 members and in the General Assembly
    And London would listen to their case and veto it.

    You don't understand how this works, do you?
    If the UK breaks up the UK would no longer have the original seat as first granted to veto, a successor state would have to be chosen and England alone would have much less claim to it than Russia had in 1991 when its request to be treated as the successor state to the USSR on the UN security council was met without objection.
    Do you think this happens overnight in a vaccuum. There's a vote, the results are counted and the next day the UK ceases to exist. 🙄

    If the UK were to break up democratically it wouldn't happen overnight, it would be negotiated and agreed. Part of that agreement demanded by London would include recognising England as the successor state so that England gets the UNSC seat etc - the SNP don't want or expect that for themselves.

    Russia was accepted as continuity successor for the USSR as it was the logical successor and had half the population.

    England would be continuity successor for the UK as it is the logical successor and has 84% of the population.
    No, the UK would not cease to exist. Any more than it ceased to exist with the secession of Ireland in 1949.

    It is frustrating that people cannot grasp this basic point. Scotland would be a new country, not one of two successor states.
    The United Kingdom was created after the Union of England and Scotland in 1707, arguably it would cease to exist, being replaced by England and Wales and maybe Northern Ireland as the successor state
    No it wasn’t. That created the Kingdom of Great Britain. It was 1801 and the union with Ireland that created the United Kingdom.

    Honestly, call yourself an historian...this is so basic even the CIA gets it right. Heck, even Wikipedia does.
    Ireland left the Union 100 years, ago, so that Kingdom is no longer part of the UK, if Scotland also left which united the Kingdom of Scotland with the Kingdom of England (which includes Wales) there would be no Kingdoms left to unite as Wales is merely a Principality not a Kingdom and Northern Ireland is merely a province not a Kingdom either.
    Hyufd, I think you will find the kingdom of Ireland was redesignated the kingdom of Northern Ireland in 1927 and is still in being.

    It would be easier for you if you just accepted you were wrong and moved on, because you are and you are looking increasingly absurd.
    No, it was renamed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland rather than the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

    Northern Ireland however did not become a Kingdom in its own right, it is merely a province, the only Kingdoms left in the UK after Ireland's departure are the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Kingdom of England
    Northern Ireland is not a province. There are four provinces in Ireland: Ulster, Leinster, Connacht and (the best) Munster. None are coterminous with Northern Ireland.
    Northern Ireland is not a country or a Kingdom, the closest it is to a definition is a province or region
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom.
    Scotland is not a Kingdom.
    Wales is not a Kingdom.
    England is not a Kingdom.

    Great Britain and Northern Ireland is one United Kingdom.
    Which only came to being by uniting the Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, if only England was left there would thus be no United Kingdom left.
    The Kingdom of Northern Ireland??
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom
    Nor is England. 🤦‍♂️

    Nor is Scotland. 🤦‍♂️
    They are, just they have united together
    It's fascinating you say that, when you whole argument on the UN seat seems to be predicated on the assertion that uniting/disuniting fundamentally changes things and one cannot claim the entity that existed before is the same as the one after. And yet here uniting two kingdoms doesn't mean anything.
    If Scotland left that would be disuniting the UK, there would no longer be that union of the 2 kingdoms anymore and the UK of GB and NI that got the seat in 1945 would no longer exist
    Pick up a history book.

    There is no union of 2 kingdoms already. The 2 kingdoms were dissolved over 300 years ago.

    The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain (one single kingdom in the 18th century) and Northern Ireland anyway, Scotland doesn't enter into it.
    The 2 kingdoms were dissolved into 1 Kingdom which would cease to exist if Scotland left it, so the UK would no longer exist, with the Kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland which made up the UK with England no longer part of it.

    Same as England would cease to exist with Northumbria in the north of England, or Mercia in the Midlands or Wessex in the South chose to leave it
    No none of them would cease to exist. If Northumbria went independent the legacy state would be England.

    If Scotland goes independent the legacy state would be the United Kingdom.

    That's the way it works, unless there is no continuity state, but there would be.
    No it would not, if Northumbria went independent the legacy states would be Wessex and Mercia, there would no longer be an England.

    If Scotland went independent the legacy state would be England, Wales and NI, there would no longer be a UK
    You can not be serious!

    Where in the law are Wessex and Mercia defined as legacy states? Probably in the same place as the "kingdom of England" is defined. 🙄

    If Northern Ireland went there'd be no UK, not that it matters since GB would be the continuity of the UK. If Scotland goes the name might remain UK.
    England was only created by the unity of Northumbria with Wessex and Mercia in 953, without that union by definition there no longer is an England.

    If Scotland left there would be no UK, Northern Ireland is a province not a Kingdom as Ireland was
    No you are being preposterous, England is whatever it is. It doesn't matter what it was created with, it is an evolving creature that at the last point the Kingdom of England actually existed included Wales. If Wales goes independent does England cease to exist?

    The Kingdom of Mercia does not exist anymore. Northumbria going independent wouldn't bring it back automatically.

    The Kingdom of England does not exist anymore. Scotland going independent wouldn't bring it back automatically.
    No, England is what it is only as a union of Northumbria, Mercia and Wessex which originally created it. Without them there would no longer be an England.

    If Wales went independent the Kingdom of England would change to remove Wales but England would not cease to exist as Wales was only added to it by Edward 1st 3 centuries after the original Kingdom of England was created
    Many countries around the globe aren't what they are when they were created. That doesn't mean they ceased to be.

    England could lose Northumbria and if the rest of the country wanted to be called England and Northumbria had no issue with that there'd be no dispute. History be damned it would be part of the history books.

    Much of what made up Germany when it was founded in 1871 is not a part of modern day Germany. Parts of Germany (1871) is now in Poland, Lithuania, France and other countries. It doesn't matter, the modern state is still called Germany even if much of 1871 Germany is now in other countries.

    Germany losing elements of itself, even founding parts, didn't end the name. Nor would England losing Northumbria.
    No, if you lose the core foundations of your nation you are no longer a nation.

    Germany today has at least part of all the Kingdoms, Duchies and cities that originally created it in 1871 and in most cases all of them.

    If England however lost all of the old Northumbria, Wessex or Mercia it would no longer be England, much as the United States would no longer really be the USA if it lost the 13 colonies that originally created it.
    You're stark raving mad.

    The idea England could be compelled to become the Kingdom of Mercia is the most delusional thing I think I've ever heard you say - and that's a lot. All because you're too pigheaded stubborn to admit you're wrong.
    He's just trolling you.
    You're right. I should stop feeding the troll.

    Goodnight all.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,692
    A growing number of left-wing French voters say they wouldn't vote for Macron over Le Pen, even in the second round.

    https://www.liberation.fr/politique/macron-le-pen-le-barrage-mal-barre-20210226_27LAT6ZRAVA7RFZOYPDDEAIX7E/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,101

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1366448131496361986?s=20


    So it had to be gouged out of him, and he only did it at the last minute, to save his skin. Do the SNP realise how bad this looks?!

    The whole thing is unbelievable and if the SNP hold onto their popularity they will be very lucky
    The SNP are the party of independence. Lots and lots and lots of people want independence. So they'll keep voting for the SNP regardless of the circumstances.

    This is uncontroversial. So long as the core policy remains in place they can get away with anything, and still scoop up at least 45% of the constituency vote.
    Time will tell but as has been pointed out a considerable number of SNP supporters were formerly labour and support the union, they just thought the SNP would govern Scotland better

    It is now uncertain just how many of these supporters will stay will the SNP and as I have said before, some of my Scots family members are SNP supporters but also pro the Union
    Yes, after many years of appearing sensible and competent compared to Westminster, suddenly the SNP look hugely inept, riven with internal wars, and incapable of being honest. This may make voters scrutinise the rest of their record, and think Hmmm, because their record is not very good

    That's the big damage from Salmondgate. It removes the SNP's and Sturgeon's supposed USP: calm and measured governance.
    Tories have an interesting line to tread on all this. They need to damage the SNP to the extent that it really hurts independence. But not to the extent that it trashes the SNP so that Labour can start getting material numbers of Westminster seats. A seriously wounded Sturgeon still in place is probably Boris's best outcome.
    Any true Tory would put Britain before party-politics and prefer to see Scotland returning Labour MPs than SNP MPs.
    Our electoral system encourages broad coalitions within the same party, rather than governing coalitions between parties. Whether you think FPTP is any good or not, that is one of its effects.

    There is no reason to suppose that all Conservatives, or Conservative voters, are necessarily devout Unionists.

    After all, there's rather a lot to like for the English right if the Union collapses. The departure of Scotland kicks away Labour's Zimmer frame. Much is made of how the Scottish Tories saved Theresa May's bacon in 2017, but if Scotland had returned no MPs at all then even she would've commanded an outright majority.
    The UK would also risk its place as a permanent member on the UN Security Council if it broke up and it would project a weaker image of the rUK internationally. No genuine Tory would ever back Scottish independence (plus Labour would still have won a majority in England and Wales in 1997, 2001 and 2005 anyway)
    Are the voters really that bothered about the Security Council seat? What use is it?

    Tony Blair's Labour Party was a very different beast to that which came within a hair's breadth of inflicting Jeremy Corbyn upon us. There is a perfectly plausible argument to be advanced that the end of the Union with (predominantly left-wing) Scotland is a price well worth paying, if it is certain or near certain to permanently reduce the hard left to a harmless rump. It might also, from a certain point of view, be a sad state of affairs, and you might dislike the whole idea intensely, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a certain logic to the position.

    Besides, Labour carefully crafted devolution to play to its political advantage, or what ultimately transpired to be a shockingly complacent and naive interpretation thereof. It would serve the party right if it were ultimately to be ruined by the project.
    I don't care what the voters views on it are, they are mostly more interested in domestic policy but the fact is our permanent membership of it is a key component of our power and prestige internationally, something it is the role of the Conservative and Unionist Party to preserve.

    Wilson also would have won in England in 1966 and England and Wales in 1964 and October 1974 and Attlee would have won in England alone in 1945 and England and Wales in 1950 too, it would be an unforgiveable folly for any Tory leader to lose Scotland, let alone advocate for it.

    That does not mean an English Parliament or regional assemblies cannot be considered too
    If Scotland goes independent England would claim to be the successor to the United Kingdom and get the permanent security council seat.

    Just as Russia already did the same thing when the USSR broke up. Russia was not the original permanent nation, the USSR was and the USSR no longer exists.

    Westminster would ensure this is resolved in the UN before Scotland goes independent and the UK has the right to veto any decision other than recognising England as the successor nation.
    Russia alone still had a population of over 100 million and one of the largest militaries in the world, England alone would not. If the UK broke up other nations like Japan, Germany and Brazil and India would use that as an excuse to press their case to take the UK's place amongst the other P5 members and in the General Assembly
    And London would listen to their case and veto it.

    You don't understand how this works, do you?
    If the UK breaks up the UK would no longer have the original seat as first granted to veto, a successor state would have to be chosen and England alone would have much less claim to it than Russia had in 1991 when its request to be treated as the successor state to the USSR on the UN security council was met without objection.
    Do you think this happens overnight in a vaccuum. There's a vote, the results are counted and the next day the UK ceases to exist. 🙄

    If the UK were to break up democratically it wouldn't happen overnight, it would be negotiated and agreed. Part of that agreement demanded by London would include recognising England as the successor state so that England gets the UNSC seat etc - the SNP don't want or expect that for themselves.

    Russia was accepted as continuity successor for the USSR as it was the logical successor and had half the population.

    England would be continuity successor for the UK as it is the logical successor and has 84% of the population.
    No, the UK would not cease to exist. Any more than it ceased to exist with the secession of Ireland in 1949.

    It is frustrating that people cannot grasp this basic point. Scotland would be a new country, not one of two successor states.
    The United Kingdom was created after the Union of England and Scotland in 1707, arguably it would cease to exist, being replaced by England and Wales and maybe Northern Ireland as the successor state
    No it wasn’t. That created the Kingdom of Great Britain. It was 1801 and the union with Ireland that created the United Kingdom.

    Honestly, call yourself an historian...this is so basic even the CIA gets it right. Heck, even Wikipedia does.
    Ireland left the Union 100 years, ago, so that Kingdom is no longer part of the UK, if Scotland also left which united the Kingdom of Scotland with the Kingdom of England (which includes Wales) there would be no Kingdoms left to unite as Wales is merely a Principality not a Kingdom and Northern Ireland is merely a province not a Kingdom either.
    Hyufd, I think you will find the kingdom of Ireland was redesignated the kingdom of Northern Ireland in 1927 and is still in being.

    It would be easier for you if you just accepted you were wrong and moved on, because you are and you are looking increasingly absurd.
    No, it was renamed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland rather than the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

    Northern Ireland however did not become a Kingdom in its own right, it is merely a province, the only Kingdoms left in the UK after Ireland's departure are the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Kingdom of England
    Northern Ireland is not a province. There are four provinces in Ireland: Ulster, Leinster, Connacht and (the best) Munster. None are coterminous with Northern Ireland.
    Northern Ireland is not a country or a Kingdom, the closest it is to a definition is a province or region
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom.
    Scotland is not a Kingdom.
    Wales is not a Kingdom.
    England is not a Kingdom.

    Great Britain and Northern Ireland is one United Kingdom.
    Which only came to being by uniting the Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, if only England was left there would thus be no United Kingdom left.
    The Kingdom of Northern Ireland??
    Northern Ireland is not a Kingdom
    Nor is England. 🤦‍♂️

    Nor is Scotland. 🤦‍♂️
    They are, just they have united together
    It's fascinating you say that, when you whole argument on the UN seat seems to be predicated on the assertion that uniting/disuniting fundamentally changes things and one cannot claim the entity that existed before is the same as the one after. And yet here uniting two kingdoms doesn't mean anything.
    If Scotland left that would be disuniting the UK, there would no longer be that union of the 2 kingdoms anymore and the UK of GB and NI that got the seat in 1945 would no longer exist
    Pick up a history book.

    There is no union of 2 kingdoms already. The 2 kingdoms were dissolved over 300 years ago.

    The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain (one single kingdom in the 18th century) and Northern Ireland anyway, Scotland doesn't enter into it.
    The 2 kingdoms were dissolved into 1 Kingdom which would cease to exist if Scotland left it, so the UK would no longer exist, with the Kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland which made up the UK with England no longer part of it.

    Same as England would cease to exist with Northumbria in the north of England, or Mercia in the Midlands or Wessex in the South chose to leave it
    No none of them would cease to exist. If Northumbria went independent the legacy state would be England.

    If Scotland goes independent the legacy state would be the United Kingdom.

    That's the way it works, unless there is no continuity state, but there would be.
    No it would not, if Northumbria went independent the legacy states would be Wessex and Mercia, there would no longer be an England.

    If Scotland went independent the legacy state would be England, Wales and NI, there would no longer be a UK
    You can not be serious!

    Where in the law are Wessex and Mercia defined as legacy states? Probably in the same place as the "kingdom of England" is defined. 🙄

    If Northern Ireland went there'd be no UK, not that it matters since GB would be the continuity of the UK. If Scotland goes the name might remain UK.
    England was only created by the unity of Northumbria with Wessex and Mercia in 953, without that union by definition there no longer is an England.

    If Scotland left there would be no UK, Northern Ireland is a province not a Kingdom as Ireland was
    No you are being preposterous, England is whatever it is. It doesn't matter what it was created with, it is an evolving creature that at the last point the Kingdom of England actually existed included Wales. If Wales goes independent does England cease to exist?

    The Kingdom of Mercia does not exist anymore. Northumbria going independent wouldn't bring it back automatically.

    The Kingdom of England does not exist anymore. Scotland going independent wouldn't bring it back automatically.
    No, England is what it is only as a union of Northumbria, Mercia and Wessex which originally created it. Without them there would no longer be an England.

    If Wales went independent the Kingdom of England would change to remove Wales but England would not cease to exist as Wales was only added to it by Edward 1st 3 centuries after the original Kingdom of England was created
    Many countries around the globe aren't what they are when they were created. That doesn't mean they ceased to be.

    England could lose Northumbria and if the rest of the country wanted to be called England and Northumbria had no issue with that there'd be no dispute. History be damned it would be part of the history books.

    Much of what made up Germany when it was founded in 1871 is not a part of modern day Germany. Parts of Germany (1871) is now in Poland, Lithuania, France and other countries. It doesn't matter, the modern state is still called Germany even if much of 1871 Germany is now in other countries.

    Germany losing elements of itself, even founding parts, didn't end the name. Nor would England losing Northumbria.
    No, if you lose the core foundations of your nation you are no longer a nation.

    Germany today has at least part of all the Kingdoms, Duchies and cities that originally created it in 1871 and in most cases all of them.

    If England however lost all of the old Northumbria, Wessex or Mercia it would no longer be England, much as the United States would no longer really be the USA if it lost the 13 colonies that originally created it.
    You're stark raving mad.

    The idea England could be compelled to become the Kingdom of Mercia is the most delusional thing I think I've ever heard you say - and that's a lot. All because you're too pigheaded stubborn to admit you're wrong.
    The hypothesis was based on the North of England ie the old Northumbria, leaving England, in which case England would no longer be England as 1/3 of it would have seceded, even if the old Mercia and Wessex remained and wished to stay united they would not be England but Mercia and Wessex
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited March 2021

    A growing number of left-wing French voters say they wouldn't vote for Macron over Le Pen, even in the second round.

    https://www.liberation.fr/politique/macron-le-pen-le-barrage-mal-barre-20210226_27LAT6ZRAVA7RFZOYPDDEAIX7E/

    It's an interesting question - was the debate with Gérald Darmanin the moment Le Pen lost her USP and became redundant, or was it the ultimate detoxification, erasing the taboo that has kept her and her party from power by blurring the formerly sharp divide between her and the mainstream? The answer will no doubt seem very obvious in hindsight.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Christ on a bike, an absolutely shocking twitter thread and revelations.

    https://twitter.com/DanVevers/status/1366501963563757572

    I suspect Leslie Evans will be soon gone.

    What are the UK government procedures for retaining notes of such meetings ?

    In the US there’s a legal obligation to retain such written records - what are the rules here ?
    I believe the rule is that retention should happen for at least 7 years since the last update in a record/journal etc, but there's a list of things that need to be kept for National Archives records.

    There's also this.

    Processes must be in place to make sure that records pending audit, litigation or investigation are not destroyed.
    That all makes sense. This is the National Archives guidance document:
    https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/information-management/popapersguidance2009.pdf

    And, of course, there's also the Ministerial Code.
    I wonder if it makes a difference if they are handwritten notes? I know during my time as a civil servant with the UK then the UN, I'd destroy my handwritten notes once they were transcribed into type-written form. God help anyone else trying to make sense of my handwritten notes.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,822
    TimT said:

    I was wondering if someone could elucidate for me what the successor state of the UK would be if Scotland gained independence. [Innocent face]

    Well, clearly the rest of the UK would go on being the UK.
    (And if Scotland goes, presumably NI goes too.)

    Now as an Englishman of Anglo-Scots descent, I have no particular problem with that. I like Scotland, but also like Ireland, and I don't have to be in a political union with it to go on liking it. It's not going to be any less adjacent upon gaining independence. It'll still be two and a half hours up the M6. England will be financially richer without Scotland, but strategically poorer - we will no longer control such a swathe of the North Atlantic. But the point is, if Scotland wants to go it alone, it's really up to them.

    But the big question remains - does 'England and Wales' still go on being called the UK? Or 'England and Wales'? And what does the flag look like - some kind of St. George's Cross / Welsh Dragon hybrid? I love the Welsh flag - it is one of the best flags in the world - but it would be odd to have the red dragon which, I believe, symbolises the fight against the white dragon of the English, on a flag representing Wales AND England. The only real way to resolve all this would be for England to declare independence from Wales.

    In all seriousness, while I'd mentally bid adieu to Scotland some time ago - and I haven't actually been since the noughties (are the English still welcome in Scotland these days?) - the last few weeks has awoken a nostalgic unionism. Maybe I liked Britain better when it was all one country. Before 1997 I rarely used the word England; I called myself British, and only ever used England when talking about sport. I had a board game when I was young - the Great Game of Britain - in which one travelled by train around the UK visiting either major visitor attractions or places significant to the history of rail. It never occurred to me in those days not to think of Scotland, Wales and NI as part of the same country. Scottish culture was part of my culture; a trip to Inverness no more or less exotic or exciting than a trip to Great Yarmouth or Penzance or Bangor. The sound of the bagpipes was unmistakably Scottish, but also unmistakably British. Nowadays, my mental map of home stops at the River Tweed. I half wonder if there is a way to return to the days - if they really existed - when we were one country. Sadly, I suspect not - the direction of devolution is one-way, the Scottish establishment and culture now seems firmly in the hands of the nationalists, and English unionism gave up caring some time ago.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Cookie said:

    TimT said:

    I was wondering if someone could elucidate for me what the successor state of the UK would be if Scotland gained independence. [Innocent face]

    Well, clearly the rest of the UK would go on being the UK.
    (And if Scotland goes, presumably NI goes too.)

    Now as an Englishman of Anglo-Scots descent, I have no particular problem with that. I like Scotland, but also like Ireland, and I don't have to be in a political union with it to go on liking it. It's not going to be any less adjacent upon gaining independence. It'll still be two and a half hours up the M6. England will be financially richer without Scotland, but strategically poorer - we will no longer control such a swathe of the North Atlantic. But the point is, if Scotland wants to go it alone, it's really up to them.

    But the big question remains - does 'England and Wales' still go on being called the UK? Or 'England and Wales'? And what does the flag look like - some kind of St. George's Cross / Welsh Dragon hybrid? I love the Welsh flag - it is one of the best flags in the world - but it would be odd to have the red dragon which, I believe, symbolises the fight against the white dragon of the English, on a flag representing Wales AND England. The only real way to resolve all this would be for England to declare independence from Wales.

    In all seriousness, while I'd mentally bid adieu to Scotland some time ago - and I haven't actually been since the noughties (are the English still welcome in Scotland these days?) - the last few weeks has awoken a nostalgic unionism. Maybe I liked Britain better when it was all one country. Before 1997 I rarely used the word England; I called myself British, and only ever used England when talking about sport. I had a board game when I was young - the Great Game of Britain - in which one travelled by train around the UK visiting either major visitor attractions or places significant to the history of rail. It never occurred to me in those days not to think of Scotland, Wales and NI as part of the same country. Scottish culture was part of my culture; a trip to Inverness no more or less exotic or exciting than a trip to Great Yarmouth or Penzance or Bangor. The sound of the bagpipes was unmistakably Scottish, but also unmistakably British. Nowadays, my mental map of home stops at the River Tweed. I half wonder if there is a way to return to the days - if they really existed - when we were one country. Sadly, I suspect not - the direction of devolution is one-way, the Scottish establishment and culture now seems firmly in the hands of the nationalists, and English unionism gave up caring some time ago.
    Sorry to put you through all that, Cookie. It was meant as an impish joke at HYUFD being HYUFD.

    BTW, I agree with pretty much all you said. Perhaps the rUK flag for England and Wales should be one of the two dragons fighting?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    A growing number of left-wing French voters say they wouldn't vote for Macron over Le Pen, even in the second round.

    https://www.liberation.fr/politique/macron-le-pen-le-barrage-mal-barre-20210226_27LAT6ZRAVA7RFZOYPDDEAIX7E/

    It's an interesting question - was the debate with Gérald Darmanin the moment Le Pen lost her USP and became redundant, or was it the ultimate detoxification, erasing the taboo that has kept her and her party from power by blurring the formerly sharp divide between her and the mainstream? The answer will no doubt seem very obvious in hindsight.
    I remember her utterly bewildered look when he was asking the question.
  • JonathanD said:

    Johnson, such a grifter

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1366520391200628738?s=20


    "An ally of Mr Johnson last night defended the charity plan, saying: 'Downing Street is as iconic as Windsor Castle but is in danger of becoming tatty because the Civil Service does everything on the cheap."

    What's the issue?

    Number 10 doesn't belong to Johnson, though he may live there for many, many years to come, it belongs to the state. Any refurbishments done stay with the state.

    So there's no reason why the state shouldn't pay for it.

    But if donors want to pay for it instead of the tax payer then that's fine by me. Let our taxes be spent on something else.

    What's the problem?
    The reason this sort of scheme shouldn't be touched with a bargepole is that the PM is essentially soliciting gifts that, to a large extent, benefit him and his family personally.

    You'd have to be pretty naive to think personal favours to the PM are done for purely altruistic reasons and, while you can't stop people being nice to you, getting into the game of asking people to buy you stuff is inviting trouble.

    Your argument that otherwise it would fall on the taxpayer is weak. The donors could pay to have a local school hall refurbished - that would otherwise fall on the taxpayer. The reason they'd rather pay for scatter cushions for Johnson is obvious.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,822
    TimT said:

    Cookie said:

    TimT said:

    I was wondering if someone could elucidate for me what the successor state of the UK would be if Scotland gained independence. [Innocent face]

    Well, clearly the rest of the UK would go on being the UK.
    (And if Scotland goes, presumably NI goes too.)

    Now as an Englishman of Anglo-Scots descent, I have no particular problem with that. I like Scotland, but also like Ireland, and I don't have to be in a political union with it to go on liking it. It's not going to be any less adjacent upon gaining independence. It'll still be two and a half hours up the M6. England will be financially richer without Scotland, but strategically poorer - we will no longer control such a swathe of the North Atlantic. But the point is, if Scotland wants to go it alone, it's really up to them.

    But the big question remains - does 'England and Wales' still go on being called the UK? Or 'England and Wales'? And what does the flag look like - some kind of St. George's Cross / Welsh Dragon hybrid? I love the Welsh flag - it is one of the best flags in the world - but it would be odd to have the red dragon which, I believe, symbolises the fight against the white dragon of the English, on a flag representing Wales AND England. The only real way to resolve all this would be for England to declare independence from Wales.

    In all seriousness, while I'd mentally bid adieu to Scotland some time ago - and I haven't actually been since the noughties (are the English still welcome in Scotland these days?) - the last few weeks has awoken a nostalgic unionism. Maybe I liked Britain better when it was all one country. Before 1997 I rarely used the word England; I called myself British, and only ever used England when talking about sport. I had a board game when I was young - the Great Game of Britain - in which one travelled by train around the UK visiting either major visitor attractions or places significant to the history of rail. It never occurred to me in those days not to think of Scotland, Wales and NI as part of the same country. Scottish culture was part of my culture; a trip to Inverness no more or less exotic or exciting than a trip to Great Yarmouth or Penzance or Bangor. The sound of the bagpipes was unmistakably Scottish, but also unmistakably British. Nowadays, my mental map of home stops at the River Tweed. I half wonder if there is a way to return to the days - if they really existed - when we were one country. Sadly, I suspect not - the direction of devolution is one-way, the Scottish establishment and culture now seems firmly in the hands of the nationalists, and English unionism gave up caring some time ago.
    Sorry to put you through all that, Cookie. It was meant as an impish joke at HYUFD being HYUFD.

    BTW, I agree with pretty much all you said. Perhaps the rUK flag for England and Wales should be one of the two dragons fighting?
    That's OK - I suspected something like that. But it's a subject I have been spending some time (probably years!) mulling - emotionally, personally, what is my country, and what does it encompass. Once upon a time it certainly included Scotland. Now I'm not sure if it does. And I don't know how I feel about that, for reasons both trivial (the flag, the name) and profound (where, really, is home? What geography stirs the soul? How has the land raised you?)

    On the flag issue, I had thought of the two dragons! It wouldn't necessarily be a terribly inspiring national metaphor, if you drilled into it beyond any level of superficiality. But it would look fucking awesome.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    RobD said:

    A growing number of left-wing French voters say they wouldn't vote for Macron over Le Pen, even in the second round.

    https://www.liberation.fr/politique/macron-le-pen-le-barrage-mal-barre-20210226_27LAT6ZRAVA7RFZOYPDDEAIX7E/

    It's an interesting question - was the debate with Gérald Darmanin the moment Le Pen lost her USP and became redundant, or was it the ultimate detoxification, erasing the taboo that has kept her and her party from power by blurring the formerly sharp divide between her and the mainstream? The answer will no doubt seem very obvious in hindsight.
    I remember her utterly bewildered look when he was asking the question.
    She seemed genuinely stunned - but whether that was because she couldn't believe her luck could be so good or so bad wasn't quite clear.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    And more. Scotland is in a kind of post-democratic meltdown


    https://twitter.com/geoffaberdein/status/1366500150210928642?s=20
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    JonathanD said:

    Johnson, such a grifter

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1366520391200628738?s=20


    "An ally of Mr Johnson last night defended the charity plan, saying: 'Downing Street is as iconic as Windsor Castle but is in danger of becoming tatty because the Civil Service does everything on the cheap."

    What's the issue?

    Number 10 doesn't belong to Johnson, though he may live there for many, many years to come, it belongs to the state. Any refurbishments done stay with the state.

    So there's no reason why the state shouldn't pay for it.

    But if donors want to pay for it instead of the tax payer then that's fine by me. Let our taxes be spent on something else.

    What's the problem?
    The reason this sort of scheme shouldn't be touched with a bargepole is that the PM is essentially soliciting gifts that, to a large extent, benefit him and his family personally.

    You'd have to be pretty naive to think personal favours to the PM are done for purely altruistic reasons and, while you can't stop people being nice to you, getting into the game of asking people to buy you stuff is inviting trouble.

    Your argument that otherwise it would fall on the taxpayer is weak. The donors could pay to have a local school hall refurbished - that would otherwise fall on the taxpayer. The reason they'd rather pay for scatter cushions for Johnson is obvious.
    Some people really have too little to worry about.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,822
    Cookie said:

    TimT said:

    Cookie said:

    TimT said:

    I was wondering if someone could elucidate for me what the successor state of the UK would be if Scotland gained independence. [Innocent face]

    Well, clearly the rest of the UK would go on being the UK.
    (And if Scotland goes, presumably NI goes too.)

    Now as an Englishman of Anglo-Scots descent, I have no particular problem with that. I like Scotland, but also like Ireland, and I don't have to be in a political union with it to go on liking it. It's not going to be any less adjacent upon gaining independence. It'll still be two and a half hours up the M6. England will be financially richer without Scotland, but strategically poorer - we will no longer control such a swathe of the North Atlantic. But the point is, if Scotland wants to go it alone, it's really up to them.

    But the big question remains - does 'England and Wales' still go on being called the UK? Or 'England and Wales'? And what does the flag look like - some kind of St. George's Cross / Welsh Dragon hybrid? I love the Welsh flag - it is one of the best flags in the world - but it would be odd to have the red dragon which, I believe, symbolises the fight against the white dragon of the English, on a flag representing Wales AND England. The only real way to resolve all this would be for England to declare independence from Wales.

    In all seriousness, while I'd mentally bid adieu to Scotland some time ago - and I haven't actually been since the noughties (are the English still welcome in Scotland these days?) - the last few weeks has awoken a nostalgic unionism. Maybe I liked Britain better when it was all one country. Before 1997 I rarely used the word England; I called myself British, and only ever used England when talking about sport. I had a board game when I was young - the Great Game of Britain - in which one travelled by train around the UK visiting either major visitor attractions or places significant to the history of rail. It never occurred to me in those days not to think of Scotland, Wales and NI as part of the same country. Scottish culture was part of my culture; a trip to Inverness no more or less exotic or exciting than a trip to Great Yarmouth or Penzance or Bangor. The sound of the bagpipes was unmistakably Scottish, but also unmistakably British. Nowadays, my mental map of home stops at the River Tweed. I half wonder if there is a way to return to the days - if they really existed - when we were one country. Sadly, I suspect not - the direction of devolution is one-way, the Scottish establishment and culture now seems firmly in the hands of the nationalists, and English unionism gave up caring some time ago.
    Sorry to put you through all that, Cookie. It was meant as an impish joke at HYUFD being HYUFD.

    BTW, I agree with pretty much all you said. Perhaps the rUK flag for England and Wales should be one of the two dragons fighting?
    That's OK - I suspected something like that. But it's a subject I have been spending some time (probably years!) mulling - emotionally, personally, what is my country, and what does it encompass. Once upon a time it certainly included Scotland. Now I'm not sure if it does. And I don't know how I feel about that, for reasons both trivial (the flag, the name) and profound (where, really, is home? What geography stirs the soul? How has the land raised you?)

    On the flag issue, I had thought of the two dragons! It wouldn't necessarily be a terribly inspiring national metaphor, if you drilled into it beyond any level of superficiality. But it would look fucking awesome.
    On a similar subject, have you read Watling Street by John Higgs? It's excellent - a long essay on what it means to be from this island - though his view is Anglo-Welsh and discusses Scotland only very briefly. It was a joy to read - it came out shortly after the EU referendum, and was the first thing I'd read on the subject which dealt with the culture and the meanings of the vote in scabrous detail without it ever really being apparent which side the author was on. Which made a refreshing change.
This discussion has been closed.