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The Tories biggest challenge at the next general election: Starmer isn’t Corbyn – politicalbetting.c

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  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,510
    edited February 2021

    BBC News - Covid-19: Travellers face £1,750 cost for England quarantine hotels
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55995645

    Certainly not cheap.

    There goes the importation of people to work for less than minimum wage.....
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Apol’s for quoting Marina Hyde yet again, but she does make me laugh...

    ‘We do get the occasional glimpse of the prime minister, who was wheeled out this week for a visit to Derby, where we were given yet another opportunity to see Boris Johnson dressed up in a white coat. I think he’s supposed to appear medical and scientific, but only ever succeeds in looking like he’s got a lovely bit of pork cheek he can do you for £3.50.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/09/covid-travel-rules-borders-boris-johnson-quarantine

    Typical modern lefty hack, who thinks that snark and sarcasm is a valid substitute for argument and persuasiveness.

    Gets loads of likes on Twitter, but does nothing to actually advance the debate.
    oh dear, did it smart?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,320
    So the trial starts. Or at least the debate about whether the trial is constitutional

    Live on CNN
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    eek said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Very disappointing to see England's week-on-week decline in vaccination numbers. I think England will need to call in some Scottish experts to help get their vaccination programme back on track.

    Not sure why the snark is necessary. It's only Scotland using the stockpile that has been accumulated.
    Absolutely loving the "Scottish government lying about how many Care Home Residents it has vaccinated" thought line at the moment.
    So, out of 36,000 Care Home residents in Scotland, only 144 have i) not given consent or ii) were not suitable because of current infection?
    There aren't 36,000 older care home resident in long term care in Scotland.



    As at 8:30am on Tuesday 9 February:

    29,908 care home residents (99.7% of residents in older adult care homes and 93% of residents in all care homes)


    Do you think they are lying about vaccinating 29,908 care home residents?
    Got a link?

    This says:

    On 31 March 2017, there were 35,989 adults in care homes

    https://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Health-and-Social-Community-Care/Publications/2018-09-11/2018-09-11-CHCensus-Summary.pdf

    Perhaps you have more up to date figures?

    0.3% refusal does seem very low.....

    0.3% refusal wasn't my biggest worry. A lot of residents (way more than 1 in 300) will have illnesses (such as pneumonia) which should exclude them from getting vaccinated.

    So what happened to them?
    They're excluded from the 30,000 it seems.

    It's patently bullshit. There isn't a slightest chance on earth that fewer than 0.3% are medically excluded from being vaccinated yet, let alone counting refusals.
    And indeed absences of informed consent, given the prevalence of dementia.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,395

    Down to 8th.

    Wonder how long it will be before PB Tories decide its a marathon not a sprint

    https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-vaccine-tracker/?areas=gbr&areas=isr&areas=usa&areas=eue&cumulative=1&populationAdjusted=1

    lol. Palau, Gibraltar, blah. Of course it is easy to vaccinate micronations
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain could be trapped in lockdown cycles for years in fight with Covid variants - but tougher measures for longer now will prevent new vaccine-resistant strains, SAGE scientists warn

    Prof Sir Ian Boyd said UK could be stuck in 'control and release for long time'
    Threw support behind longer lockdown to stop more variants from spawning
    Several other SAGE scientists came out in favour of extending current curbs"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9239863/Britain-trapped-lockdown-cycles-YEARS-SAGE-scientist-warns.html

    These sorts of nightmare scenarios might be fringe extremist doom-mongering, but then again they may not. We don't know what nasty tricks this wretched virus has left to pull - that's why so many of us now are so desperate for the clowns who run the country to finally stop dicking about and properly shutter the borders.

    The fewer people we have coming in and the more tightly they're controlled, the less the likelihood of a disaster being imported from abroad. This leaves us to vaccinate our way out of trouble at home: once domestic cases are ground down to very low levels then the threat of mutant Covid ruining everything is very much reduced, and our hitherto pitiful test, trace and isolate system might just have some chance of stopping it even if it breaks out.

    As it is, the UK is playing Russian roulette with every arrival coming into the country. We're a sitting duck.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,927
    Lennon said:

    Sandpit said:

    FF43 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    Not clear about the rules for Next PM after Johnson. Would that include a Starmer-led Labour Party winning the next GE? If so odds should be much better than 20%.

    Not if Boris quits before the election
    Indeed so. What I was unsure of is how the bet pays out assuming Johnson and Starmer are both still in place at the next election. If Starmer wins then he's next PM according to the rules? If Johnson wins, what happens? Is the bet still live?

    My base case is that both Johnson and Starmer do lead at the next election and that Johnson, as of now, is a bit more likely to win.
    Yes, your bet would still be live. This market is unaffected by elections, and is simply who’s the next PM.

    A bet placed in late 1979 or 1997 would have been live for a decade, which is worth bearing in mind in this market.
    Although interestingly I reckon that Brown would still have been favourite in late '97.
    That’s indeed quite probable. Brown and Hague would have been about the only conceivable options at that point.

    A long time to leave a short-odds bet running though.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Sandpit said:

    Apol’s for quoting Marina Hyde yet again, but she does make me laugh...

    ‘We do get the occasional glimpse of the prime minister, who was wheeled out this week for a visit to Derby, where we were given yet another opportunity to see Boris Johnson dressed up in a white coat. I think he’s supposed to appear medical and scientific, but only ever succeeds in looking like he’s got a lovely bit of pork cheek he can do you for £3.50.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/09/covid-travel-rules-borders-boris-johnson-quarantine

    Typical modern lefty hack, who thinks that snark and sarcasm is a valid substitute for argument and persuasiveness.

    Gets loads of likes on Twitter, but does nothing to actually advance the debate.
    oh dear, did it smart?
    I have to say the perception that the white coat makes him look like a butcher was original and funny.
  • Options
    LennonLennon Posts: 1,735

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Very disappointing to see England's week-on-week decline in vaccination numbers. I think England will need to call in some Scottish experts to help get their vaccination programme back on track.

    Not sure why the snark is necessary. It's only Scotland using the stockpile that has been accumulated.
    Absolutely loving the "Scottish government lying about how many Care Home Residents it has vaccinated" thought line at the moment.
    So, out of 36,000 Care Home residents in Scotland, only 144 have i) not given consent or ii) were not suitable because of current infection?
    There aren't 36,000 older care home resident in long term care in Scotland.



    As at 8:30am on Tuesday 9 February:

    29,908 care home residents (99.7% of residents in older adult care homes and 93% of residents in all care homes)


    Do you think they are lying about vaccinating 29,908 care home residents?
    Got a link?

    This says:

    On 31 March 2017, there were 35,989 adults in care homes

    https://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Health-and-Social-Community-Care/Publications/2018-09-11/2018-09-11-CHCensus-Summary.pdf

    Perhaps you have more up to date figures?

    0.3% refusal does seem very low.....

    0.3% refusal wasn't my biggest worry. A lot of residents (way more than 1 in 300) will have illnesses (such as pneumonia) which should exclude them from getting vaccinated.

    So what happened to them?
    They're excluded from the 30,000 it seems.

    It's patently bullshit. There isn't a slightest chance on earth that fewer than 0.3% are medically excluded from being vaccinated yet, let alone counting refusals.
    Is it really bullshit? When I was a manager I was trained to set targets that were SMART - of which the last three are 'achievable, relevant and targeted'. There is no point in including people who aren't vaccinable as a target in the current programme. The correct thing to do is to note them for another time - but right now they cannot be jabbed and don't count.
    Oh absolutely it would be SMART to vaccinate those you can but that's not the claim being made. If the claim is 99.7% of eligible residents excluding those who can't be vaccinated or have refused then that would be reasonable. But the claim is being made that it's 99.7% of residents, no exclusions.

    That's just not believable. It is not credible and it's not SMART since it's not achievable to target 99.7% of all residents with no exclusions within six weeks.
    Is that just what ius in the media sans qualifications, or the press releases, or the primary document? Haven't been looking into it in detail ...
    What I think happened is this.

    Numbers of nursing homes are relatively invariant. But the number of residents is. Arriving, leaving, dying..... Not to mention temporary residents...

    Someone asked - "How many people in nursing homes"
    Someone replied - "About 30k"

    Fifteen copy and pastas later - 30K is the number.

    When the result of the vaccination drive came in to just under 30K, someone divided the 2 numbers and thought - "brilliant success". And passed it on to their boss....
    And given the fluidity it's an ever changing number. Are you measuring the total number of vaccinations that have been given in a nursing home setting (which will then include those that have since left the nursing home for hospital or the cemetery); or the total number of people currently in a nursing home who have been vaccinated (in which case you need to include Bob who got the Vaccine in hospital last Tuesday and is now a nursing home resident); or any one of a number of slightly different variants... It's pointless trying to compare these sorts of things with an accuracy much greater than 'everyone was offered, the vast majority have accepted'
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,194
    edited February 2021
    Personally I don't care all that much about the origins of the virus. But what the **** were the WHO doing giving the press conference in China?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,883
    Leon said:

    Down to 8th.

    Wonder how long it will be before PB Tories decide its a marathon not a sprint

    https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-vaccine-tracker/?areas=gbr&areas=isr&areas=usa&areas=eue&cumulative=1&populationAdjusted=1

    lol. Palau, Gibraltar, blah. Of course it is easy to vaccinate micronations
    Like its easy to top the deaths per capita league table with 83 deaths

    We concur
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,883
    edited February 2021
    Hopefully today or tomorrow was/will be our last day ever with more than 1,000 Covid deaths in a 24hr period
  • Options
    LennonLennon Posts: 1,735
    Sandpit said:

    Lennon said:

    Sandpit said:

    FF43 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    Not clear about the rules for Next PM after Johnson. Would that include a Starmer-led Labour Party winning the next GE? If so odds should be much better than 20%.

    Not if Boris quits before the election
    Indeed so. What I was unsure of is how the bet pays out assuming Johnson and Starmer are both still in place at the next election. If Starmer wins then he's next PM according to the rules? If Johnson wins, what happens? Is the bet still live?

    My base case is that both Johnson and Starmer do lead at the next election and that Johnson, as of now, is a bit more likely to win.
    Yes, your bet would still be live. This market is unaffected by elections, and is simply who’s the next PM.

    A bet placed in late 1979 or 1997 would have been live for a decade, which is worth bearing in mind in this market.
    Although interestingly I reckon that Brown would still have been favourite in late '97.
    That’s indeed quite probable. Brown and Hague would have been about the only conceivable options at that point.

    A long time to leave a short-odds bet running though.
    Yeah, it's probably a nice example of a short-odds bet where the favourite remains favourite throughout and wins - but the (unknown at the start) length of the bet makes it a loser in terms of time-value of money.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Just seen this on Twitter not sure if true

    "Which political party, if any, do you think has the best team of leaders to deal with the country’s problems?"

    CON: 41%
    LAB: 21%
    SNP: 5%
    LD: 1%
    OTH: 2%

    Via
    @IpsosMORI
    , 29 January-4 February

    It comes from this mixed bag of a survey (I Googled it...)

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/strong-approval-governments-vaccine-programme-johnson-preferred-lead-pandemic-response

    It would appear that Rishi Sunak still reigns supreme as the nation's favourite politician, if you think there's any real meaning to these kinds of polls. Starmer also earns a net positive rating, and Hancock has almost reached the stratospheric heights of zero. The latter is probably a product of the hugely positive attitudes displayed toward the vaccine rollout.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,320
    Dems opening argument is that if you can't impeach a retired president, they would be free to commit an impeachable offence in their last few months, which cannot be right or constitutional.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131

    Hopefully today or tomorrow was/will be our last day ever with more than 1,000 Covid deaths in a 24hr period

    Positive tests in the past seven days were at just 2.6% of the total tests undertaken. Getting harder to find....
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,320
    edited February 2021
    Exhibit A from the Dems: video of Trump's pre-riot speech and scenes from the protest and riot

    With extensive sections of McConnell's speech
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,927
    Lennon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lennon said:

    Sandpit said:

    FF43 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    Not clear about the rules for Next PM after Johnson. Would that include a Starmer-led Labour Party winning the next GE? If so odds should be much better than 20%.

    Not if Boris quits before the election
    Indeed so. What I was unsure of is how the bet pays out assuming Johnson and Starmer are both still in place at the next election. If Starmer wins then he's next PM according to the rules? If Johnson wins, what happens? Is the bet still live?

    My base case is that both Johnson and Starmer do lead at the next election and that Johnson, as of now, is a bit more likely to win.
    Yes, your bet would still be live. This market is unaffected by elections, and is simply who’s the next PM.

    A bet placed in late 1979 or 1997 would have been live for a decade, which is worth bearing in mind in this market.
    Although interestingly I reckon that Brown would still have been favourite in late '97.
    That’s indeed quite probable. Brown and Hague would have been about the only conceivable options at that point.

    A long time to leave a short-odds bet running though.
    Yeah, it's probably a nice example of a short-odds bet where the favourite remains favourite throughout and wins - but the (unknown at the start) length of the bet makes it a loser in terms of time-value of money.
    Yes, a great example. He’d likely have been odds-on favourite for most of that decade, and won eventually, but it would be a poor bet purely because of the time element.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,762
    https://twitter.com/nickgutteridge/status/1359194488409911296

    As of now I expect the EU to reject Data Adequacy for the UK. The UK had a reputation of gilding the lily on EU regulations as a member. That wasn't the case with data protection, where the UK was barely compliant. As an outsider the UK will be held to a higher standard than as a member.

    This will be a big, big problem for UK businesses. The UK recently published a Data Strategy that waffled somewhat on "Brexit opportunities" but didn't have any Plan B to an EU Data Adequacy decision.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,395

    Andy_JS said:

    "Britain could be trapped in lockdown cycles for years in fight with Covid variants - but tougher measures for longer now will prevent new vaccine-resistant strains, SAGE scientists warn

    Prof Sir Ian Boyd said UK could be stuck in 'control and release for long time'
    Threw support behind longer lockdown to stop more variants from spawning
    Several other SAGE scientists came out in favour of extending current curbs"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9239863/Britain-trapped-lockdown-cycles-YEARS-SAGE-scientist-warns.html

    These sorts of nightmare scenarios might be fringe extremist doom-mongering, but then again they may not. We don't know what nasty tricks this wretched virus has left to pull - that's why so many of us now are so desperate for the clowns who run the country to finally stop dicking about and properly shutter the borders.

    The fewer people we have coming in and the more tightly they're controlled, the less the likelihood of a disaster being imported from abroad. This leaves us to vaccinate our way out of trouble at home: once domestic cases are ground down to very low levels then the threat of mutant Covid ruining everything is very much reduced, and our hitherto pitiful test, trace and isolate system might just have some chance of stopping it even if it breaks out.

    As it is, the UK is playing Russian roulette with every arrival coming into the country. We're a sitting duck.
    It's already here. And it's already rampant in central Europe. The SA Bug is a Reality.

    I think we're moderately fucked. For the rest of the year at least. Lockdown or quasi lockdown until late Autumn, meanwhile praying that no more variants come along. We should still escape this year - but this is edgy, now.

    Extreme Worst Case Scenario: new variants keep coming along, too fast for us to stall, and we are stuck in this tail-chasing cycle for years, and human society is irretrievably diminished for decades: easy travel never returns, borders go up everywhere, globalisation goes into sharp reverse, a few minor wars break out. Might be good for the planet tho. Gaia has her revenge.

    Mega Extreme worst case scenario just for the lolz: it evolves into something like Avian flu, with 60% fatality and huge infectivity. A new Black Death.

    OK, time for a gin
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,395
    Lennon said:
    Ah, there it is, right on time.

    The Extreme Worst Case Scenario. may actually be the Reasonable Worst etc
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,654
    edited February 2021
    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Very disappointing to see England's week-on-week decline in vaccination numbers. I think England will need to call in some Scottish experts to help get their vaccination programme back on track.

    Not sure why the snark is necessary. It's only Scotland using the stockpile that has been accumulated.
    Absolutely loving the "Scottish government lying about how many Care Home Residents it has vaccinated" thought line at the moment.
    So, out of 36,000 Care Home residents in Scotland, only 144 have i) not given consent or ii) were not suitable because of current infection?
    There aren't 36,000 older care home resident in long term care in Scotland.



    As at 8:30am on Tuesday 9 February:

    29,908 care home residents (99.7% of residents in older adult care homes and 93% of residents in all care homes)


    Do you think they are lying about vaccinating 29,908 care home residents?
    That number really is suspicious. 29908/0.997 = 29,998. Almost exactly the 30,000 population estimate given in the document on the Scottish government website.

    https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccinations-data---technical-note/
    Guessing the Denominator would absolutely be standard operating procedure for the Scottish Govt.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,956
    edited February 2021

    Hopefully today or tomorrow was/will be our last day ever with more than 1,000 Covid deaths in a 24hr period

    Positive tests in the past seven days were at just 2.6% of the total tests undertaken. Getting harder to find....
    Our test capability is very good, only Denmark in the EU is ahead of us on that aspect. Denmark probably wishes it had gone with its own vaccine procurement scheme tbh.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Very disappointing to see England's week-on-week decline in vaccination numbers. I think England will need to call in some Scottish experts to help get their vaccination programme back on track.

    Not sure why the snark is necessary. It's only Scotland using the stockpile that has been accumulated.
    Absolutely loving the "Scottish government lying about how many Care Home Residents it has vaccinated" thought line at the moment.
    So, out of 36,000 Care Home residents in Scotland, only 144 have i) not given consent or ii) were not suitable because of current infection?
    There aren't 36,000 older care home resident in long term care in Scotland.



    As at 8:30am on Tuesday 9 February:

    29,908 care home residents (99.7% of residents in older adult care homes and 93% of residents in all care homes)


    Do you think they are lying about vaccinating 29,908 care home residents?
    Got a link?

    This says:

    On 31 March 2017, there were 35,989 adults in care homes

    https://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Health-and-Social-Community-Care/Publications/2018-09-11/2018-09-11-CHCensus-Summary.pdf

    Perhaps you have more up to date figures?

    0.3% refusal does seem very low.....

    Did you read 3 lines down in your PDF. 35,989 covers all forms of care homes not just OAP care homes.

    The figure under debate is the vaccination of older adults in long term care.

    From your PDF
    At 31 March 2017, there were 31,223 long stay residents in care homes for older people,

    Given the amount of deaths due to mismanagement of Covid last year 30,000osh residents fitting that criteria sounds plausible.

    Do you think the Scottish government is lying about the number of older adults in long term care that they have vaccinated that it reports in its daily briefing? https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-daily-data-for-scotland/
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,349
    Starmer is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn but he has his own problems. He's dull. He has no obvious sense of humour or the ridiculous, he's a bit to worthy and earnest about things that the vast majority really don't care about and he has no obvious vision (or at least he is doing a seriously good job of hiding it if he does). He also hung around with Corbyn for a bit long and tolerated some pretty disgusting behaviour without feeling the need to resign.

    So not such an easy or compelling target but not someone whom the Tories should fear either. He's certainly no Blair and he has no heavyweight like Brown backing him up either. I am sure I have told the story before about a young Osborne and Finklestein going to the Labour party conference about 1994 and getting royally drunk after hearing Blair speak. They were both convinced that they could never beat him and, guess what, they never did. The equivalent attendee at this year's Labour conference is more likely to be worried about staying awake and retaining the will to live.

    I think the odds are fair enough tbh.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Very disappointing to see England's week-on-week decline in vaccination numbers. I think England will need to call in some Scottish experts to help get their vaccination programme back on track.

    Not sure why the snark is necessary. It's only Scotland using the stockpile that has been accumulated.
    Absolutely loving the "Scottish government lying about how many Care Home Residents it has vaccinated" thought line at the moment.
    So, out of 36,000 Care Home residents in Scotland, only 144 have i) not given consent or ii) were not suitable because of current infection?
    There aren't 36,000 older care home resident in long term care in Scotland.



    As at 8:30am on Tuesday 9 February:

    29,908 care home residents (99.7% of residents in older adult care homes and 93% of residents in all care homes)


    Do you think they are lying about vaccinating 29,908 care home residents?
    Got a link?

    This says:

    On 31 March 2017, there were 35,989 adults in care homes

    https://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Health-and-Social-Community-Care/Publications/2018-09-11/2018-09-11-CHCensus-Summary.pdf

    Perhaps you have more up to date figures?

    0.3% refusal does seem very low.....

    Did you read 3 lines down in your PDF. 35,989 covers all forms of care homes not just OAP care homes.

    The figure under debate is the vaccination of older adults in long term care.

    From your PDF
    At 31 March 2017, there were 31,223 long stay residents in care homes for older people,

    Given the amount of deaths due to mismanagement of Covid last year 30,000osh residents fitting that criteria sounds plausible.

    Do you think the Scottish government is lying about the number of older adults in long term care that they have vaccinated that it reports in its daily briefing? https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-daily-data-for-scotland/
    No, the only question is the denominator.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,320
    edited February 2021
    Video continues. Dems rightly considering that reminding Senators of the events of that day is worth using a lot of their time.

    A lot of vivid footage some of which I haven't seen before.

    Footage concludes with one of Trump's tweets at the time.

    "If that's not an impeachable offence, then there's no such thing"
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,349

    Lets hope Scotland keeps up this performance:

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1359180957111234565?s=20

    1.4% of the population in a single day is a truly remarkable performance. Matched across the UK we would be touching a million.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,883

    Hopefully today or tomorrow was/will be our last day ever with more than 1,000 Covid deaths in a 24hr period

    Positive tests in the past seven days were at just 2.6% of the total tests undertaken. Getting harder to find....
    Yep lets hope we don't release restrictions too early. Need death per day under 100 IMO

    About 4 weeks time that might be achievable

    Then I think any additional waves will peak at much lower rates than this one.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,270
    DavidL said:

    Starmer is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn but he has his own problems. He's dull. He has no obvious sense of humour or the ridiculous, he's a bit to worthy and earnest about things that the vast majority really don't care about and he has no obvious vision (or at least he is doing a seriously good job of hiding it if he does). He also hung around with Corbyn for a bit long and tolerated some pretty disgusting behaviour without feeling the need to resign.

    So not such an easy or compelling target but not someone whom the Tories should fear either. He's certainly no Blair and he has no heavyweight like Brown backing him up either. I am sure I have told the story before about a young Osborne and Finklestein going to the Labour party conference about 1994 and getting royally drunk after hearing Blair speak. They were both convinced that they could never beat him and, guess what, they never did. The equivalent attendee at this year's Labour conference is more likely to be worried about staying awake and retaining the will to live.

    I think the odds are fair enough tbh.

    Mike is right about the odds.

    Starmer is OK, but he does need to cull the dead wood from the Shadow Cabinet, and replace it with some pre-Corbyn big hitters (well of those few remaining that Corbyn didn't eject from the party).
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Very disappointing to see England's week-on-week decline in vaccination numbers. I think England will need to call in some Scottish experts to help get their vaccination programme back on track.

    Not sure why the snark is necessary. It's only Scotland using the stockpile that has been accumulated.
    Absolutely loving the "Scottish government lying about how many Care Home Residents it has vaccinated" thought line at the moment.
    So, out of 36,000 Care Home residents in Scotland, only 144 have i) not given consent or ii) were not suitable because of current infection?
    There aren't 36,000 older care home resident in long term care in Scotland.



    As at 8:30am on Tuesday 9 February:

    29,908 care home residents (99.7% of residents in older adult care homes and 93% of residents in all care homes)


    Do you think they are lying about vaccinating 29,908 care home residents?
    Got a link?

    This says:

    On 31 March 2017, there were 35,989 adults in care homes

    https://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Health-and-Social-Community-Care/Publications/2018-09-11/2018-09-11-CHCensus-Summary.pdf

    Perhaps you have more up to date figures?

    0.3% refusal does seem very low.....

    Did you read 3 lines down in your PDF. 35,989 covers all forms of care homes not just OAP care homes.

    The figure under debate is the vaccination of older adults in long term care.

    From your PDF
    At 31 March 2017, there were 31,223 long stay residents in care homes for older people,

    Given the amount of deaths due to mismanagement of Covid last year 30,000osh residents fitting that criteria sounds plausible.

    Do you think the Scottish government is lying about the number of older adults in long term care that they have vaccinated that it reports in its daily briefing? https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-daily-data-for-scotland/
    No, the only question is the denominator.
    It's not 36,000 that's for sure.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796
    DavidL said:

    Starmer is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn but he has his own problems. He's dull. He has no obvious sense of humour or the ridiculous, he's a bit to worthy and earnest about things that the vast majority really don't care about and he has no obvious vision (or at least he is doing a seriously good job of hiding it if he does). He also hung around with Corbyn for a bit long and tolerated some pretty disgusting behaviour without feeling the need to resign.

    So not such an easy or compelling target but not someone whom the Tories should fear either. He's certainly no Blair and he has no heavyweight like Brown backing him up either. I am sure I have told the story before about a young Osborne and Finklestein going to the Labour party conference about 1994 and getting royally drunk after hearing Blair speak. They were both convinced that they could never beat him and, guess what, they never did. The equivalent attendee at this year's Labour conference is more likely to be worried about staying awake and retaining the will to live.

    I think the odds are fair enough tbh.

    I'd agree with your conclusions. I'm astonished that you describe Brown as a heavyweight - unless you mean useless great lump. I suspect he revises tying his shoelaces.


    For Starmer to become next PM he needs to survive 3 more years, he needs Boris to do so too, and then he needs to win an election. There are of course other routes, but 20% chance is at best right and probably too big.
  • Options
    I actually disagree with OGH here. Moreover, I'm a layer of Starmer as next PM at current prices.

    Labour's problems go far deeper than Corbyn, and being "Not Corbyn" is an insufficient answer to them for the reasons I explored on Sunday.

    Corbyn was a symptom as well as a cause; a denial of the reasons Labour won office, and then lost it, in the first place. The bigger problem is the deeply-tarnished Labour brand, what it stands for, what it's learnt, and what it will do in office. Corbyn just made it much worse, and added some fantastical delusions into the mix as well.

    Starmer is personally likeable and has drawn-level with Johnson as "Best PM" in the past; the trouble is that he's been shrinking in those leads and there's a huge pool of undecideds on him, now, that are starting to firm up.

    He won't be Corbyn Mark II, but he could easily become Miliband Mark II.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    tlg86 said:

    Personally I don't care all that much about the origins of the virus. But what the **** were the WHO doing giving the press conference in China?

    I don't either, but the reasons given for ruling out lab escape are so insultingly thin and stupid that the whole thing is obviously just a Don't let's be beastly to the Chinese exercise. So might as well go the whole hog and say so on their territory.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,320
    edited February 2021
    Dems now quoting English history - that former government officials could brought to trial, citing case of Warren Hastings, former governor general of Benghal - as precedent : the case cited "as a model for us" by one of the authors of the US constitution
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited February 2021

    twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1359200495613673474

    "It has still about the same transmissibility, but it seems that this mutation might enable it to escape immunity to some extent, which means that it's possible it could evade the vaccine."

    Yay.....No way we are going back to normal in 2021.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898
    edited February 2021
    IanB2 said:

    Dems now quoting English history - that former government officials could brought to trial, citing case of Warren Hastings, former governor general of Benghal - as precedent

    Didn't that take years and he was acquitted? Not the most favourable precedent.

    But the idea you can get away with impeachable actions in your last period in office is really odd, if you accept impeachment as a proccess at all.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,349

    DavidL said:

    Starmer is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn but he has his own problems. He's dull. He has no obvious sense of humour or the ridiculous, he's a bit to worthy and earnest about things that the vast majority really don't care about and he has no obvious vision (or at least he is doing a seriously good job of hiding it if he does). He also hung around with Corbyn for a bit long and tolerated some pretty disgusting behaviour without feeling the need to resign.

    So not such an easy or compelling target but not someone whom the Tories should fear either. He's certainly no Blair and he has no heavyweight like Brown backing him up either. I am sure I have told the story before about a young Osborne and Finklestein going to the Labour party conference about 1994 and getting royally drunk after hearing Blair speak. They were both convinced that they could never beat him and, guess what, they never did. The equivalent attendee at this year's Labour conference is more likely to be worried about staying awake and retaining the will to live.

    I think the odds are fair enough tbh.

    Mike is right about the odds.

    Starmer is OK, but he does need to cull the dead wood from the Shadow Cabinet, and replace it with some pre-Corbyn big hitters (well of those few remaining that Corbyn didn't eject from the party).
    Well fill your boots. Personally I think that Labour under SKS has leaped ahead of the Monster Raving Loony Party, probably stepped over the dead body of the odd Lib Dem and stands as a just about ready to take over in the event of a total Tory meltdown. That's not impossible but I think 20% is not that exciting even if you ignore the high risk that Boris may have been replaced by then (making the bet a loser), especially in a melt down scenario.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited February 2021
    What we really have to hope for is these pre-infect / early post-infection sprays work and a much more effective treatment is found to work from those things currently being trialled.

    AFAIK, these approaches have nothing to do with targeting the spike protein, so are unaffected by the current mutations.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,883



    He won't be Corbyn Mark II, but he could easily become Miliband Mark II.

    The nearest Labour came to power was 2017 not 2015 so being EICIPM means Lab do better than 2019 but worse than 2017
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,349
    Omnium said:

    DavidL said:

    Starmer is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn but he has his own problems. He's dull. He has no obvious sense of humour or the ridiculous, he's a bit to worthy and earnest about things that the vast majority really don't care about and he has no obvious vision (or at least he is doing a seriously good job of hiding it if he does). He also hung around with Corbyn for a bit long and tolerated some pretty disgusting behaviour without feeling the need to resign.

    So not such an easy or compelling target but not someone whom the Tories should fear either. He's certainly no Blair and he has no heavyweight like Brown backing him up either. I am sure I have told the story before about a young Osborne and Finklestein going to the Labour party conference about 1994 and getting royally drunk after hearing Blair speak. They were both convinced that they could never beat him and, guess what, they never did. The equivalent attendee at this year's Labour conference is more likely to be worried about staying awake and retaining the will to live.

    I think the odds are fair enough tbh.

    I'd agree with your conclusions. I'm astonished that you describe Brown as a heavyweight - unless you mean useless great lump. I suspect he revises tying his shoelaces.


    For Starmer to become next PM he needs to survive 3 more years, he needs Boris to do so too, and then he needs to win an election. There are of course other routes, but 20% chance is at best right and probably too big.
    I am not a fan of Brown but in opposition with the prawn cocktail offensive in the City he was a formidable operator and sounded like he knew what he was talking about, even if he was just reading out Ed Balls' scripts. Annaliese Dodds? Just won't do.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,320
    Dems argue that the first ever US impeachment case was of Blunt, a former official, who had tried to sell Florida.
  • Options
    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Very disappointing to see England's week-on-week decline in vaccination numbers. I think England will need to call in some Scottish experts to help get their vaccination programme back on track.

    Not sure why the snark is necessary. It's only Scotland using the stockpile that has been accumulated.
    Absolutely loving the "Scottish government lying about how many Care Home Residents it has vaccinated" thought line at the moment.
    So, out of 36,000 Care Home residents in Scotland, only 144 have i) not given consent or ii) were not suitable because of current infection?
    There aren't 36,000 older care home resident in long term care in Scotland.



    As at 8:30am on Tuesday 9 February:

    29,908 care home residents (99.7% of residents in older adult care homes and 93% of residents in all care homes)


    Do you think they are lying about vaccinating 29,908 care home residents?
    Got a link?

    This says:

    On 31 March 2017, there were 35,989 adults in care homes

    https://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Health-and-Social-Community-Care/Publications/2018-09-11/2018-09-11-CHCensus-Summary.pdf

    Perhaps you have more up to date figures?

    0.3% refusal does seem very low.....

    Did you read 3 lines down in your PDF. 35,989 covers all forms of care homes not just OAP care homes.

    The figure under debate is the vaccination of older adults in long term care.

    From your PDF
    At 31 March 2017, there were 31,223 long stay residents in care homes for older people,

    Given the amount of deaths due to mismanagement of Covid last year 30,000osh residents fitting that criteria sounds plausible.

    Do you think the Scottish government is lying about the number of older adults in long term care that they have vaccinated that it reports in its daily briefing? https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-daily-data-for-scotland/
    No, the only question is the denominator.
    It's not 36,000 that's for sure.
    Actually it could be given the high churn in care homes. It could even be higher.

    One factor many don't realise is that many nursing homes operate as a halfway house between the NHS and the Community. Patients are routinely discharged from the NHS into a home for a fortnight, then discharged back home. If each of these residents are counted over the six week period it's entirely possible that over time the quantity of residents is HIGHER than the residents on any individual day.

    The same bed could have been occupied three times during a six week period.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,299
    The Starmer next PM bet is all about whether you think Johnson goes before the election. If like me you think - you virtually know - he doesn't then Starmer at 20% is great value. It just is.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,320
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Dems now quoting English history - that former government officials could brought to trial, citing case of Warren Hastings, former governor general of Benghal - as precedent

    Didn't that take years and he was acquitted? Not the most favourable precedent.

    But the idea you can get away with impeachable actions in your last period in office is really odd, if you accept impeachment as a proccess at all.
    The argument they are establishing today is limited to the question as to whether you can, under the constitution, impeach a former official. Hence the Hastings case, together with the comments about it by the founders, has relevance.
  • Options

    twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1359200495613673474

    "It has still about the same transmissibility, but it seems that this mutation might enable it to escape immunity to some extent, which means that it's possible it could evade the vaccine."

    Yay.....No way we are going back to normal in 2021.
    I've got tickets to see Blondie with Garbage as the support act in November 2021.

    I soooooooo want to go to that gig.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,270
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Starmer is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn but he has his own problems. He's dull. He has no obvious sense of humour or the ridiculous, he's a bit to worthy and earnest about things that the vast majority really don't care about and he has no obvious vision (or at least he is doing a seriously good job of hiding it if he does). He also hung around with Corbyn for a bit long and tolerated some pretty disgusting behaviour without feeling the need to resign.

    So not such an easy or compelling target but not someone whom the Tories should fear either. He's certainly no Blair and he has no heavyweight like Brown backing him up either. I am sure I have told the story before about a young Osborne and Finklestein going to the Labour party conference about 1994 and getting royally drunk after hearing Blair speak. They were both convinced that they could never beat him and, guess what, they never did. The equivalent attendee at this year's Labour conference is more likely to be worried about staying awake and retaining the will to live.

    I think the odds are fair enough tbh.

    Mike is right about the odds.

    Starmer is OK, but he does need to cull the dead wood from the Shadow Cabinet, and replace it with some pre-Corbyn big hitters (well of those few remaining that Corbyn didn't eject from the party).
    Well fill your boots. Personally I think that Labour under SKS has leaped ahead of the Monster Raving Loony Party, probably stepped over the dead body of the odd Lib Dem and stands as a just about ready to take over in the event of a total Tory meltdown. That's not impossible but I think 20% is not that exciting even if you ignore the high risk that Boris may have been replaced by then (making the bet a loser), especially in a melt down scenario.
    Excuse me! The Lib Dems are merely resting.
  • Options
    BBC News - Covid: Premier Inn 'investigate' lockdown staff party claim
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55998272

    Wales...party.... can't have one without a sheep?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,868

    BBC News - Covid: Premier Inn 'investigate' lockdown staff party claim
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55998272

    Wales...party.... can't have one without a sheep?

    I thought you were talking about political parties!
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,585
    edited February 2021
    DavidL said:

    Starmer is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn but he has his own problems. He's dull. He has no obvious sense of humour or the ridiculous, he's a bit to worthy and earnest about things that the vast majority really don't care about and he has no obvious vision (or at least he is doing a seriously good job of hiding it if he does). He also hung around with Corbyn for a bit long and tolerated some pretty disgusting behaviour without feeling the need to resign.

    So not such an easy or compelling target but not someone whom the Tories should fear either. He's certainly no Blair and he has no heavyweight like Brown backing him up either. I am sure I have told the story before about a young Osborne and Finklestein going to the Labour party conference about 1994 and getting royally drunk after hearing Blair speak. They were both convinced that they could never beat him and, guess what, they never did. The equivalent attendee at this year's Labour conference is more likely to be worried about staying awake and retaining the will to live.

    I think the odds are fair enough tbh.

    The lack of heavyweight support is striking, while the presence of pretty brutal opposition from his own party's left is a force to be reckoned with. No-one will switch to vote Labour by watching Richard Burgon, but a few might switch from Labour.

    When your big talkers are the left, and the heavyweights are all on the back benches - and not many of those, it will get noticed.

    And Angela Rayner, while she has qualities, is not going to win votes from Tories.

    Needless to say Tory voters won't switch to a party with members who regard them as 'Scum' and 'Vermin' and pretends not to understand why rational centrists might vote for them.

    he can't win without lots and lots of Tory switchers.

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,349

    twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1359200495613673474

    "It has still about the same transmissibility, but it seems that this mutation might enable it to escape immunity to some extent, which means that it's possible it could evade the vaccine."

    Yay.....No way we are going back to normal in 2021.
    I've got tickets to see Blondie with Garbage as the support act in November 2021.

    I soooooooo want to go to that gig.
    My daughters saw her at T in the park some years ago now. All the big bands were there including Coldplay but it was Deborah Harry they kept talking about. Just blew them away.
  • Options

    twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1359200495613673474

    "It has still about the same transmissibility, but it seems that this mutation might enable it to escape immunity to some extent, which means that it's possible it could evade the vaccine."

    Yay.....No way we are going back to normal in 2021.
    I've got tickets to see Blondie with Garbage as the support act in November 2021.

    I soooooooo want to go to that gig.
    I still have tickets for 5-6 gigs I was supposed to be going to in 2020, which have been rescheduled once or twice already.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,270
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Starmer is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn but he has his own problems. He's dull. He has no obvious sense of humour or the ridiculous, he's a bit to worthy and earnest about things that the vast majority really don't care about and he has no obvious vision (or at least he is doing a seriously good job of hiding it if he does). He also hung around with Corbyn for a bit long and tolerated some pretty disgusting behaviour without feeling the need to resign.

    So not such an easy or compelling target but not someone whom the Tories should fear either. He's certainly no Blair and he has no heavyweight like Brown backing him up either. I am sure I have told the story before about a young Osborne and Finklestein going to the Labour party conference about 1994 and getting royally drunk after hearing Blair speak. They were both convinced that they could never beat him and, guess what, they never did. The equivalent attendee at this year's Labour conference is more likely to be worried about staying awake and retaining the will to live.

    I think the odds are fair enough tbh.

    Mike is right about the odds.

    Starmer is OK, but he does need to cull the dead wood from the Shadow Cabinet, and replace it with some pre-Corbyn big hitters (well of those few remaining that Corbyn didn't eject from the party).
    Well fill your boots. Personally I think that Labour under SKS has leaped ahead of the Monster Raving Loony Party, probably stepped over the dead body of the odd Lib Dem and stands as a just about ready to take over in the event of a total Tory meltdown. That's not impossible but I think 20% is not that exciting even if you ignore the high risk that Boris may have been replaced by then (making the bet a loser), especially in a melt down scenario.
    P.S. Monster Raving Loony Party? Is that a party run by a man with wild comedic hair, wearing an ill-fitting suit, who salutes like Benny Hill's Fred Scuttle character?
  • Options
    ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    I actually disagree with OGH here. Moreover, I'm a layer of Starmer as next PM at current prices.

    Labour's problems go far deeper than Corbyn, and being "Not Corbyn" is an insufficient answer to them for the reasons I explored on Sunday.

    Corbyn was a symptom as well as a cause; a denial of the reasons Labour won office, and then lost it, in the first place. The bigger problem is the deeply-tarnished Labour brand, what it stands for, what it's learnt, and what it will do in office. Corbyn just made it much worse, and added some fantastical delusions into the mix as well.

    Starmer is personally likeable and has drawn-level with Johnson as "Best PM" in the past; the trouble is that he's been shrinking in those leads and there's a huge pool of undecideds on him, now, that are starting to firm up.

    He won't be Corbyn Mark II, but he could easily become Miliband Mark II.

    Starmer's mountain is far too high to climb in one go. We're talking overturning an 80 seat majority with a majority of his own. He has a battle on multiple fronts to win back the red-wall whilst also winning the Swindon Norths and Nuneaton's (now with huge Con majorites) whilst simultaneously hanging on to his metropolitan seats. He's no Blair. That is evident - a little too stained with Corbyn dog-dirt, with little or no young pizazz that Blair effortlessly showed.

    A hung parliament with SNP support is his worst nightmare for a myriad of reasons, and one which would lead to another election very quickly.

    Labour would be best aiming at two pushes. And by the second Labour may have worked out who will need to lead them.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,349

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Very disappointing to see England's week-on-week decline in vaccination numbers. I think England will need to call in some Scottish experts to help get their vaccination programme back on track.

    Not sure why the snark is necessary. It's only Scotland using the stockpile that has been accumulated.
    Absolutely loving the "Scottish government lying about how many Care Home Residents it has vaccinated" thought line at the moment.
    So, out of 36,000 Care Home residents in Scotland, only 144 have i) not given consent or ii) were not suitable because of current infection?
    There aren't 36,000 older care home resident in long term care in Scotland.



    As at 8:30am on Tuesday 9 February:

    29,908 care home residents (99.7% of residents in older adult care homes and 93% of residents in all care homes)


    Do you think they are lying about vaccinating 29,908 care home residents?
    Got a link?

    This says:

    On 31 March 2017, there were 35,989 adults in care homes

    https://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Health-and-Social-Community-Care/Publications/2018-09-11/2018-09-11-CHCensus-Summary.pdf

    Perhaps you have more up to date figures?

    0.3% refusal does seem very low.....

    Did you read 3 lines down in your PDF. 35,989 covers all forms of care homes not just OAP care homes.

    The figure under debate is the vaccination of older adults in long term care.

    From your PDF
    At 31 March 2017, there were 31,223 long stay residents in care homes for older people,

    Given the amount of deaths due to mismanagement of Covid last year 30,000osh residents fitting that criteria sounds plausible.

    Do you think the Scottish government is lying about the number of older adults in long term care that they have vaccinated that it reports in its daily briefing? https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-daily-data-for-scotland/
    No, the only question is the denominator.
    It's not 36,000 that's for sure.
    Actually it could be given the high churn in care homes. It could even be higher.

    One factor many don't realise is that many nursing homes operate as a halfway house between the NHS and the Community. Patients are routinely discharged from the NHS into a home for a fortnight, then discharged back home. If each of these residents are counted over the six week period it's entirely possible that over time the quantity of residents is HIGHER than the residents on any individual day.

    The same bed could have been occupied three times during a six week period.
    Plus a fairly stunning percentage of residents die within a couple of years of getting there in normal times. Unless they have made an executive decision to vaccinate everyone without asking or getting the written consent of the holders of welfare attorneys for the mentally disabled there is simply no way that they reached such a high percentage of residents vaccinated.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,585
    kinabalu said:

    The Starmer next PM bet is all about whether you think Johnson goes before the election. If like me you think - you virtually know - he doesn't then Starmer at 20% is great value. It just is.

    He is only value if the voters will look at him and say 'Yes, he is PM material'. They won't. On current information Rishi or Boris would beat him. And if it's Rishi, the bet is lost anyway.

  • Options



    He won't be Corbyn Mark II, but he could easily become Miliband Mark II.

    The nearest Labour came to power was 2017 not 2015 so being EICIPM means Lab do better than 2019 but worse than 2017
    Yes, this fantasy is your biggest problem.

    The 2017GE is absolutely the worst thing to have ever happened to Labour as it confirmed all the whackiest delusions out there.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,349



    He won't be Corbyn Mark II, but he could easily become Miliband Mark II.

    The nearest Labour came to power was 2017 not 2015 so being EICIPM means Lab do better than 2019 but worse than 2017
    Yes, this fantasy is your biggest problem.

    The 2017GE is absolutely the worst thing to have ever happened to Labour as it confirmed all the whackiest delusions out there.
    And it was really all about how unbelievably crap May was.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    DavidL said:

    Starmer is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn but he has his own problems. He's dull. He has no obvious sense of humour or the ridiculous, he's a bit to worthy and earnest about things that the vast majority really don't care about and he has no obvious vision (or at least he is doing a seriously good job of hiding it if he does). He also hung around with Corbyn for a bit long and tolerated some pretty disgusting behaviour without feeling the need to resign.

    So not such an easy or compelling target but not someone whom the Tories should fear either. He's certainly no Blair and he has no heavyweight like Brown backing him up either. I am sure I have told the story before about a young Osborne and Finklestein going to the Labour party conference about 1994 and getting royally drunk after hearing Blair speak. They were both convinced that they could never beat him and, guess what, they never did. The equivalent attendee at this year's Labour conference is more likely to be worried about staying awake and retaining the will to live.

    I think the odds are fair enough tbh.

    Mike is right about the odds.

    Starmer is OK, but he does need to cull the dead wood from the Shadow Cabinet, and replace it with some pre-Corbyn big hitters (well of those few remaining that Corbyn didn't eject from the party).
    I disagree he needs to use the best new talent like the shadow home Secretary Nick Thomas Symonds.
    He does not need to make it Milliband mark 2 which did not win.
    The public in the main do not care and can hardly name a cabinet member or shadow cabinet member in normal times .
    As in all GE the main focus is the leader ,he is doing fine especially in a pandemic when the government is able to speak to the public everyday which drowns out any other issues.
    So it would be a waste of time to announce them.
    The magic money tree has finally been broken apart as the conservatives have broken this.
    Which will mean they can not easily make this attack work again.
    )
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,270

    BBC News - Covid: Premier Inn 'investigate' lockdown staff party claim
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55998272

    Wales...party.... can't have one without a sheep?

    I suspect after an investigation that won't be the last leaving party requiring organisation.
  • Options

    twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1359200495613673474

    "It has still about the same transmissibility, but it seems that this mutation might enable it to escape immunity to some extent, which means that it's possible it could evade the vaccine."

    Yay.....No way we are going back to normal in 2021.
    I've got tickets to see Blondie with Garbage as the support act in November 2021.

    I soooooooo want to go to that gig.
    I still have tickets for 5-6 gigs I was supposed to be going to in 2020, which have been rescheduled once or twice already.
    Same. Really am looking forward to seeing New Order.
  • Options
    Omnium said:

    DavidL said:

    Starmer is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn but he has his own problems. He's dull. He has no obvious sense of humour or the ridiculous, he's a bit to worthy and earnest about things that the vast majority really don't care about and he has no obvious vision (or at least he is doing a seriously good job of hiding it if he does). He also hung around with Corbyn for a bit long and tolerated some pretty disgusting behaviour without feeling the need to resign.

    So not such an easy or compelling target but not someone whom the Tories should fear either. He's certainly no Blair and he has no heavyweight like Brown backing him up either. I am sure I have told the story before about a young Osborne and Finklestein going to the Labour party conference about 1994 and getting royally drunk after hearing Blair speak. They were both convinced that they could never beat him and, guess what, they never did. The equivalent attendee at this year's Labour conference is more likely to be worried about staying awake and retaining the will to live.

    I think the odds are fair enough tbh.

    I'd agree with your conclusions. I'm astonished that you describe Brown as a heavyweight - unless you mean useless great lump. I suspect he revises tying his shoelaces.


    For Starmer to become next PM he needs to survive 3 more years, he needs Boris to do so too, and then he needs to win an election. There are of course other routes, but 20% chance is at best right and probably too big.
    I think you're forgetting just how revered Gordon was in his day. In fact there were many, even on the Right, who regarded Tone as merely a kind of warmup act, a brief interlude of slickness before the austere majesty of the Brown epoch could begin. Were his admirers simply deluded or did Brown start to unravel himself? I don't know!
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1359200495613673474

    "It has still about the same transmissibility, but it seems that this mutation might enable it to escape immunity to some extent, which means that it's possible it could evade the vaccine."

    Yay.....No way we are going back to normal in 2021.
    I've got tickets to see Blondie with Garbage as the support act in November 2021.

    I soooooooo want to go to that gig.
    My daughters saw her at T in the park some years ago now. All the big bands were there including Coldplay but it was Deborah Harry they kept talking about. Just blew them away.
    She can sing.

    I'm coming to Glasgow to see her and Shirley Manson.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,349

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Starmer is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn but he has his own problems. He's dull. He has no obvious sense of humour or the ridiculous, he's a bit to worthy and earnest about things that the vast majority really don't care about and he has no obvious vision (or at least he is doing a seriously good job of hiding it if he does). He also hung around with Corbyn for a bit long and tolerated some pretty disgusting behaviour without feeling the need to resign.

    So not such an easy or compelling target but not someone whom the Tories should fear either. He's certainly no Blair and he has no heavyweight like Brown backing him up either. I am sure I have told the story before about a young Osborne and Finklestein going to the Labour party conference about 1994 and getting royally drunk after hearing Blair speak. They were both convinced that they could never beat him and, guess what, they never did. The equivalent attendee at this year's Labour conference is more likely to be worried about staying awake and retaining the will to live.

    I think the odds are fair enough tbh.

    Mike is right about the odds.

    Starmer is OK, but he does need to cull the dead wood from the Shadow Cabinet, and replace it with some pre-Corbyn big hitters (well of those few remaining that Corbyn didn't eject from the party).
    Well fill your boots. Personally I think that Labour under SKS has leaped ahead of the Monster Raving Loony Party, probably stepped over the dead body of the odd Lib Dem and stands as a just about ready to take over in the event of a total Tory meltdown. That's not impossible but I think 20% is not that exciting even if you ignore the high risk that Boris may have been replaced by then (making the bet a loser), especially in a melt down scenario.
    P.S. Monster Raving Loony Party? Is that a party run by a man with wild comedic hair, wearing an ill-fitting suit, who salutes like Benny Hill's Fred Scuttle character?
    LOL. Who could you possibly be thinking of?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,868
    dixiedean said:

    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Very disappointing to see England's week-on-week decline in vaccination numbers. I think England will need to call in some Scottish experts to help get their vaccination programme back on track.

    Not sure why the snark is necessary. It's only Scotland using the stockpile that has been accumulated.
    Absolutely loving the "Scottish government lying about how many Care Home Residents it has vaccinated" thought line at the moment.
    So, out of 36,000 Care Home residents in Scotland, only 144 have i) not given consent or ii) were not suitable because of current infection?
    There aren't 36,000 older care home resident in long term care in Scotland.



    As at 8:30am on Tuesday 9 February:

    29,908 care home residents (99.7% of residents in older adult care homes and 93% of residents in all care homes)


    Do you think they are lying about vaccinating 29,908 care home residents?
    Got a link?

    This says:

    On 31 March 2017, there were 35,989 adults in care homes

    https://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Health-and-Social-Community-Care/Publications/2018-09-11/2018-09-11-CHCensus-Summary.pdf

    Perhaps you have more up to date figures?

    0.3% refusal does seem very low.....

    0.3% refusal wasn't my biggest worry. A lot of residents (way more than 1 in 300) will have illnesses (such as pneumonia) which should exclude them from getting vaccinated.

    So what happened to them?
    They're excluded from the 30,000 it seems.

    It's patently bullshit. There isn't a slightest chance on earth that fewer than 0.3% are medically excluded from being vaccinated yet, let alone counting refusals.
    Is it really bullshit? When I was a manager I was trained to set targets that were SMART - of which the last three are 'achievable, relevant and targeted'. There is no point in including people who aren't vaccinable as a target in the current programme. The correct thing to do is to note them for another time - but right now they cannot be jabbed and don't count.
    Point of order. Isn't the T timed?
    Doi you know, I can't remember. Surely 'timed' came under the specific and measurable bit? But it's much the same thing anyway - a tagret has to be temporal in part.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,883

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Starmer is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn but he has his own problems. He's dull. He has no obvious sense of humour or the ridiculous, he's a bit to worthy and earnest about things that the vast majority really don't care about and he has no obvious vision (or at least he is doing a seriously good job of hiding it if he does). He also hung around with Corbyn for a bit long and tolerated some pretty disgusting behaviour without feeling the need to resign.

    So not such an easy or compelling target but not someone whom the Tories should fear either. He's certainly no Blair and he has no heavyweight like Brown backing him up either. I am sure I have told the story before about a young Osborne and Finklestein going to the Labour party conference about 1994 and getting royally drunk after hearing Blair speak. They were both convinced that they could never beat him and, guess what, they never did. The equivalent attendee at this year's Labour conference is more likely to be worried about staying awake and retaining the will to live.

    I think the odds are fair enough tbh.

    Mike is right about the odds.

    Starmer is OK, but he does need to cull the dead wood from the Shadow Cabinet, and replace it with some pre-Corbyn big hitters (well of those few remaining that Corbyn didn't eject from the party).
    Well fill your boots. Personally I think that Labour under SKS has leaped ahead of the Monster Raving Loony Party, probably stepped over the dead body of the odd Lib Dem and stands as a just about ready to take over in the event of a total Tory meltdown. That's not impossible but I think 20% is not that exciting even if you ignore the high risk that Boris may have been replaced by then (making the bet a loser), especially in a melt down scenario.
    Excuse me! The Lib Dems are merely resting.
    wouldn't voom if you put four million volts through them??

    ex party!!
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,927
    DavidL said:

    twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1359200495613673474

    "It has still about the same transmissibility, but it seems that this mutation might enable it to escape immunity to some extent, which means that it's possible it could evade the vaccine."

    Yay.....No way we are going back to normal in 2021.
    I've got tickets to see Blondie with Garbage as the support act in November 2021.

    I soooooooo want to go to that gig.
    My daughters saw her at T in the park some years ago now. All the big bands were there including Coldplay but it was Deborah Harry they kept talking about. Just blew them away.
    A big classic pop act is often the surprising hit at these festivals. Glastonbury have seen the likes of Dolly Parton and Kylie Minogue as recent headliners.

    You’d never have thought of the crowds as being pop music fans, but everyone knows all the songs and the artists make a huge effort with the stage show.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131

    I reckon 20% on Starmer being next PM is very generous. I'd put it at around 50%, with the proviso that Covid is over as a health issue, though not an economic one.

    Corbyn has gone. Brexit is done - the outcome will still be an issue, but not Brexit itself. The far, far left are either leaving Labour or being marginalised. Because of Covid, neither Starmer nor his team have had a decent hearing yet on anything other than the crisis. Starmer is no fool: policy development is well under way. The Tories' support is flattered by the pandemic and boosted by vaccination; it's not that deep, and once the health crisis is over the nation will be less inclined to give the government the benefit of the doubt. Tories have been in power a long time. And if the Shadow Cabinet has weaknesses, these are no greater, and I would suggest less, than those in the actual Cabinet. Oh, and people like JRM wittering on about 'happy fish' will lose the Tories votes. Oh, and Boris's appeal will wear a bit thin by 2024.

    I'm almost persuading myself that Starmer has a better than evens chance of next PM.

    It sounds like you are pricing Starmers chance of being PM after the next GE, or even his chance of being PM after the next GE vs B Johnson. This is a huge error as the market is next PM.

    If Starmer does spectacularly well, Johnson will likely be replaced by another Tory, well before the election and the bet loses.
    If Starmer does moderately well, he will struggle with FPTP.

    To win the bet you have either Starmer hits the sweet spot where Johnson can hang on and Starmer can just deny the Tories a majority, or that he does really well only in the campaign itself, once it is too late for the Tories to switch leaders.

    20% is about right, if anything a lay for the above reasons.
    The Tories will go into the next election with the leader best placed to win. Simple as that.

    Hard to say at this stage whether that will still be Boris, or if he has had enough/is shown the door by the Men in Grey Suits, to be replaced by Rishi, Hancock or Liz Truss.

  • Options

    I actually disagree with OGH here. Moreover, I'm a layer of Starmer as next PM at current prices.

    Labour's problems go far deeper than Corbyn, and being "Not Corbyn" is an insufficient answer to them for the reasons I explored on Sunday.

    Corbyn was a symptom as well as a cause; a denial of the reasons Labour won office, and then lost it, in the first place. The bigger problem is the deeply-tarnished Labour brand, what it stands for, what it's learnt, and what it will do in office. Corbyn just made it much worse, and added some fantastical delusions into the mix as well.

    Starmer is personally likeable and has drawn-level with Johnson as "Best PM" in the past; the trouble is that he's been shrinking in those leads and there's a huge pool of undecideds on him, now, that are starting to firm up.

    He won't be Corbyn Mark II, but he could easily become Miliband Mark II.

    Starmer's mountain is far too high to climb in one go. We're talking overturning an 80 seat majority with a majority of his own. He has a battle on multiple fronts to win back the red-wall whilst also winning the Swindon Norths and Nuneaton's (now with huge Con majorites) whilst simultaneously hanging on to his metropolitan seats. He's no Blair. That is evident - a little too stained with Corbyn dog-dirt, with little or no young pizazz that Blair effortlessly showed.

    A hung parliament with SNP support is his worst nightmare for a myriad of reasons, and one which would lead to another election very quickly.

    Labour would be best aiming at two pushes. And by the second Labour may have worked out who will need to lead them.
    I'm really not sure about this. The electorate is both divided and very volatile these days and it doesn't really work on a bite and hold approach. If it goes for Labour it will go in a big way and I think he could get there (or a good hundred gains) in one go.

    If it doesn't, he will just get 30-40 gains max, and more or less stay there as Labour have since 2010. The risk is that a nutjob takes over from Starmer, and they then go backwards again.

    What I don't think will happen is something in between in a two-stage approach. Labour either breaks out, or it doesn't.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,585
    edited February 2021

    I actually disagree with OGH here. Moreover, I'm a layer of Starmer as next PM at current prices.

    Labour's problems go far deeper than Corbyn, and being "Not Corbyn" is an insufficient answer to them for the reasons I explored on Sunday.

    Corbyn was a symptom as well as a cause; a denial of the reasons Labour won office, and then lost it, in the first place. The bigger problem is the deeply-tarnished Labour brand, what it stands for, what it's learnt, and what it will do in office. Corbyn just made it much worse, and added some fantastical delusions into the mix as well.

    Starmer is personally likeable and has drawn-level with Johnson as "Best PM" in the past; the trouble is that he's been shrinking in those leads and there's a huge pool of undecideds on him, now, that are starting to firm up.

    He won't be Corbyn Mark II, but he could easily become Miliband Mark II.

    Starmer's mountain is far too high to climb in one go. We're talking overturning an 80 seat majority with a majority of his own. He has a battle on multiple fronts to win back the red-wall whilst also winning the Swindon Norths and Nuneaton's (now with huge Con majorites) whilst simultaneously hanging on to his metropolitan seats. He's no Blair. That is evident - a little too stained with Corbyn dog-dirt, with little or no young pizazz that Blair effortlessly showed.

    A hung parliament with SNP support is his worst nightmare for a myriad of reasons, and one which would lead to another election very quickly.

    Labour would be best aiming at two pushes. And by the second Labour may have worked out who will need to lead them.
    Try naming 10 heavyweights to form the core of a Labour cabinet in government. Or even 5. Most people can't name the shadow foreign secretary or home secretary. There are lots more biggish beasts among the left and the 'given up' moderates than there are from the future cabinet possibles.

    BTW a hung parliament with SNP is likely his best hope. A paradox: the more likely it is, the more the English centre will vote to stop it (ie Tory). Another paradox: SKS would have to offer a 2nd referendum, and hope the SNP lose. It's not a voter friendly position.

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,349
    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    Personally I don't care all that much about the origins of the virus. But what the **** were the WHO doing giving the press conference in China?

    I don't either, but the reasons given for ruling out lab escape are so insultingly thin and stupid that the whole thing is obviously just a Don't let's be beastly to the Chinese exercise. So might as well go the whole hog and say so on their territory.
    I think Biden is minded to come back to the WHO as proof that the insanity of Trump has ended and the US is once again a reliable partner but farcical rubbish like this won't make his job any easier.
  • Options

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Starmer is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn but he has his own problems. He's dull. He has no obvious sense of humour or the ridiculous, he's a bit to worthy and earnest about things that the vast majority really don't care about and he has no obvious vision (or at least he is doing a seriously good job of hiding it if he does). He also hung around with Corbyn for a bit long and tolerated some pretty disgusting behaviour without feeling the need to resign.

    So not such an easy or compelling target but not someone whom the Tories should fear either. He's certainly no Blair and he has no heavyweight like Brown backing him up either. I am sure I have told the story before about a young Osborne and Finklestein going to the Labour party conference about 1994 and getting royally drunk after hearing Blair speak. They were both convinced that they could never beat him and, guess what, they never did. The equivalent attendee at this year's Labour conference is more likely to be worried about staying awake and retaining the will to live.

    I think the odds are fair enough tbh.

    Mike is right about the odds.

    Starmer is OK, but he does need to cull the dead wood from the Shadow Cabinet, and replace it with some pre-Corbyn big hitters (well of those few remaining that Corbyn didn't eject from the party).
    Well fill your boots. Personally I think that Labour under SKS has leaped ahead of the Monster Raving Loony Party, probably stepped over the dead body of the odd Lib Dem and stands as a just about ready to take over in the event of a total Tory meltdown. That's not impossible but I think 20% is not that exciting even if you ignore the high risk that Boris may have been replaced by then (making the bet a loser), especially in a melt down scenario.
    Excuse me! The Lib Dems are merely resting.
    wouldn't voom if you put four million volts through them??

    ex party!!
    ... but maybe a nice By-Election might do it?
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Very disappointing to see England's week-on-week decline in vaccination numbers. I think England will need to call in some Scottish experts to help get their vaccination programme back on track.

    Not sure why the snark is necessary. It's only Scotland using the stockpile that has been accumulated.
    Absolutely loving the "Scottish government lying about how many Care Home Residents it has vaccinated" thought line at the moment.
    So, out of 36,000 Care Home residents in Scotland, only 144 have i) not given consent or ii) were not suitable because of current infection?
    There aren't 36,000 older care home resident in long term care in Scotland.



    As at 8:30am on Tuesday 9 February:

    29,908 care home residents (99.7% of residents in older adult care homes and 93% of residents in all care homes)


    Do you think they are lying about vaccinating 29,908 care home residents?
    Got a link?

    This says:

    On 31 March 2017, there were 35,989 adults in care homes

    https://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Health-and-Social-Community-Care/Publications/2018-09-11/2018-09-11-CHCensus-Summary.pdf

    Perhaps you have more up to date figures?

    0.3% refusal does seem very low.....

    Did you read 3 lines down in your PDF. 35,989 covers all forms of care homes not just OAP care homes.

    The figure under debate is the vaccination of older adults in long term care.

    From your PDF
    At 31 March 2017, there were 31,223 long stay residents in care homes for older people,

    Given the amount of deaths due to mismanagement of Covid last year 30,000osh residents fitting that criteria sounds plausible.

    Do you think the Scottish government is lying about the number of older adults in long term care that they have vaccinated that it reports in its daily briefing? https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-daily-data-for-scotland/
    No, the only question is the denominator.
    It's not 36,000 that's for sure.
    Actually it could be given the high churn in care homes. It could even be higher.

    One factor many don't realise is that many nursing homes operate as a halfway house between the NHS and the Community. Patients are routinely discharged from the NHS into a home for a fortnight, then discharged back home. If each of these residents are counted over the six week period it's entirely possible that over time the quantity of residents is HIGHER than the residents on any individual day.

    The same bed could have been occupied three times during a six week period.
    And that's not "long term care"
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,320
    Dems argue that if being out of office exempted you from the sanction of disqualification from future office, a president about to impeached could resign immediately before the verdict was about to be passed, to evade sanction.
  • Options
    DavidL said:



    He won't be Corbyn Mark II, but he could easily become Miliband Mark II.

    The nearest Labour came to power was 2017 not 2015 so being EICIPM means Lab do better than 2019 but worse than 2017
    Yes, this fantasy is your biggest problem.

    The 2017GE is absolutely the worst thing to have ever happened to Labour as it confirmed all the whackiest delusions out there.
    And it was really all about how unbelievably crap May was.
    It was a unique set of circumstances. It was a snap election. We had blind polling. We had people using Labour a vehicle to stop Brexit. Theresa May was found out during the campaign, and yet Corbyn hadn't been yet, and many wanted to inhibit her.

    What Labour got right was a pitch to end austerity and a strong retail offer. And the Tories have now learnt that lesson and captured that.

    And don't forget that even in GE2017 Labour still lost by a clear margin in votes and seats - it could have been much worse too; the red wall had started to fracture but had yet to crumble.

    Rather than clinging onto that dream of what could have been they should look to GE2019, which is a true test of where that approach leads and how the political landscape has changed since.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,349

    DavidL said:

    twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1359200495613673474

    "It has still about the same transmissibility, but it seems that this mutation might enable it to escape immunity to some extent, which means that it's possible it could evade the vaccine."

    Yay.....No way we are going back to normal in 2021.
    I've got tickets to see Blondie with Garbage as the support act in November 2021.

    I soooooooo want to go to that gig.
    My daughters saw her at T in the park some years ago now. All the big bands were there including Coldplay but it was Deborah Harry they kept talking about. Just blew them away.
    She can sing.

    I'm coming to Glasgow to see her and Shirley Manson.
    And once upon a time, the right time for me, she was the sexiest looking woman in the world.

    True story, she was asked about the posters and whether it concerned her that she had, erm, helped so many teenage boys through difficult times. Not at all, she explained. Even when Blondie was briefly the largest selling band in the world she was still making more money off the posters.
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1359200495613673474

    "It has still about the same transmissibility, but it seems that this mutation might enable it to escape immunity to some extent, which means that it's possible it could evade the vaccine."

    Yay.....No way we are going back to normal in 2021.
    I've got tickets to see Blondie with Garbage as the support act in November 2021.

    I soooooooo want to go to that gig.
    I still have tickets for 5-6 gigs I was supposed to be going to in 2020, which have been rescheduled once or twice already.
    Same. Really am looking forward to seeing New Order.
    LOL I would not hold your breath....
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,992
    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Very disappointing to see England's week-on-week decline in vaccination numbers. I think England will need to call in some Scottish experts to help get their vaccination programme back on track.

    Not sure why the snark is necessary. It's only Scotland using the stockpile that has been accumulated.
    Absolutely loving the "Scottish government lying about how many Care Home Residents it has vaccinated" thought line at the moment.
    So, out of 36,000 Care Home residents in Scotland, only 144 have i) not given consent or ii) were not suitable because of current infection?
    There aren't 36,000 older care home resident in long term care in Scotland.



    As at 8:30am on Tuesday 9 February:

    29,908 care home residents (99.7% of residents in older adult care homes and 93% of residents in all care homes)


    Do you think they are lying about vaccinating 29,908 care home residents?
    Got a link?

    This says:

    On 31 March 2017, there were 35,989 adults in care homes

    https://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Health-and-Social-Community-Care/Publications/2018-09-11/2018-09-11-CHCensus-Summary.pdf

    Perhaps you have more up to date figures?

    0.3% refusal does seem very low.....

    0.3% refusal wasn't my biggest worry. A lot of residents (way more than 1 in 300) will have illnesses (such as pneumonia) which should exclude them from getting vaccinated.

    So what happened to them?
    They're excluded from the 30,000 it seems.

    It's patently bullshit. There isn't a slightest chance on earth that fewer than 0.3% are medically excluded from being vaccinated yet, let alone counting refusals.
    Is it really bullshit? When I was a manager I was trained to set targets that were SMART - of which the last three are 'achievable, relevant and targeted'. There is no point in including people who aren't vaccinable as a target in the current programme. The correct thing to do is to note them for another time - but right now they cannot be jabbed and don't count.
    Point of order. Isn't the T timed?
    Doi you know, I can't remember. Surely 'timed' came under the specific and measurable bit? But it's much the same thing anyway - a tagret has to be temporal in part.
    It was hammered into me in my PGCE.
    Which was 20 years ago.
    I suppose it could be targeted in other situations. In education it ain't much use if it's targeted outwith your students.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,395
    edited February 2021
    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    Personally I don't care all that much about the origins of the virus. But what the **** were the WHO doing giving the press conference in China?

    I don't either, but the reasons given for ruling out lab escape are so insultingly thin and stupid that the whole thing is obviously just a Don't let's be beastly to the Chinese exercise. So might as well go the whole hog and say so on their territory.
    I think Biden is minded to come back to the WHO as proof that the insanity of Trump has ended and the US is once again a reliable partner but farcical rubbish like this won't make his job any easier.
    I've been searching but I can't find ANY actual new evidence from WHO about the lab-origin theory. Just the bald assertion that they've decided it is "very unlikely"

    What is their argument?

    EDIT: Jesus, I found it

    "Asked why, WHO's Embarek said accidental releases are extremely rare and that the team’s review of the Wuhan institute’s lab operations indicated it would be hard for anything to escape from it."

    OMFG
  • Options
    ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    I actually disagree with OGH here. Moreover, I'm a layer of Starmer as next PM at current prices.

    Labour's problems go far deeper than Corbyn, and being "Not Corbyn" is an insufficient answer to them for the reasons I explored on Sunday.

    Corbyn was a symptom as well as a cause; a denial of the reasons Labour won office, and then lost it, in the first place. The bigger problem is the deeply-tarnished Labour brand, what it stands for, what it's learnt, and what it will do in office. Corbyn just made it much worse, and added some fantastical delusions into the mix as well.

    Starmer is personally likeable and has drawn-level with Johnson as "Best PM" in the past; the trouble is that he's been shrinking in those leads and there's a huge pool of undecideds on him, now, that are starting to firm up.

    He won't be Corbyn Mark II, but he could easily become Miliband Mark II.

    Starmer's mountain is far too high to climb in one go. We're talking overturning an 80 seat majority with a majority of his own. He has a battle on multiple fronts to win back the red-wall whilst also winning the Swindon Norths and Nuneaton's (now with huge Con majorites) whilst simultaneously hanging on to his metropolitan seats. He's no Blair. That is evident - a little too stained with Corbyn dog-dirt, with little or no young pizazz that Blair effortlessly showed.

    A hung parliament with SNP support is his worst nightmare for a myriad of reasons, and one which would lead to another election very quickly.

    Labour would be best aiming at two pushes. And by the second Labour may have worked out who will need to lead them.
    I'm really not sure about this. The electorate is both divided and very volatile these days and it doesn't really work on a bite and hold approach. If it goes for Labour it will go in a big way and I think he could get there (or a good hundred gains) in one go.

    If it doesn't, he will just get 30-40 gains max, and more or less stay there as Labour have since 2010. The risk is that a nutjob takes over from Starmer, and they then go backwards again.

    What I don't think will happen is something in between in a two-stage approach. Labour either breaks out, or it doesn't.
    I see your point. Ironically 30 or 40 gains would be preferable to gaining say "only" 70 or 80. There's that dangerous squishy middle ground he needs to avoid to prevent having enough seats to have the PM "discussion" but not having to reply on the SNP (assuming Scotland stays yellow of course) to make it so. He needs enough to use the Lib Dems.

    So 30-40 "making progress", 70-80 "Off to Holyrood to kiss Sturgeons hand, shit what do we do now, we're dead meat", 100-110 "Lib-Lab here we go", 120+ "Keep the Red flag flying".

    I don't see 120+. 100-110 very difficult unless Cons collapse. Would he really want to be in the 70-80 area??
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,927
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    Personally I don't care all that much about the origins of the virus. But what the **** were the WHO doing giving the press conference in China?

    I don't either, but the reasons given for ruling out lab escape are so insultingly thin and stupid that the whole thing is obviously just a Don't let's be beastly to the Chinese exercise. So might as well go the whole hog and say so on their territory.
    I think Biden is minded to come back to the WHO as proof that the insanity of Trump has ended and the US is once again a reliable partner but farcical rubbish like this won't make his job any easier.
    I've been searching but I can't find ANY actual new evidence from WHO about the lab-origin theory. Just the bald assertion that they've decided it is "very unlikely"

    What is their argument?
    The Chinese said it didn’t happen, so it didn’t happen.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,585

    I reckon 20% on Starmer being next PM is very generous. I'd put it at around 50%, with the proviso that Covid is over as a health issue, though not an economic one.

    Corbyn has gone. Brexit is done - the outcome will still be an issue, but not Brexit itself. The far, far left are either leaving Labour or being marginalised. Because of Covid, neither Starmer nor his team have had a decent hearing yet on anything other than the crisis. Starmer is no fool: policy development is well under way. The Tories' support is flattered by the pandemic and boosted by vaccination; it's not that deep, and once the health crisis is over the nation will be less inclined to give the government the benefit of the doubt. Tories have been in power a long time. And if the Shadow Cabinet has weaknesses, these are no greater, and I would suggest less, than those in the actual Cabinet. Oh, and people like JRM wittering on about 'happy fish' will lose the Tories votes. Oh, and Boris's appeal will wear a bit thin by 2024.

    I'm almost persuading myself that Starmer has a better than evens chance of next PM.

    It sounds like you are pricing Starmers chance of being PM after the next GE, or even his chance of being PM after the next GE vs B Johnson. This is a huge error as the market is next PM.

    If Starmer does spectacularly well, Johnson will likely be replaced by another Tory, well before the election and the bet loses.
    If Starmer does moderately well, he will struggle with FPTP.

    To win the bet you have either Starmer hits the sweet spot where Johnson can hang on and Starmer can just deny the Tories a majority, or that he does really well only in the campaign itself, once it is too late for the Tories to switch leaders.

    20% is about right, if anything a lay for the above reasons.
    The Tories will go into the next election with the leader best placed to win. Simple as that.

    Hard to say at this stage whether that will still be Boris, or if he has had enough/is shown the door by the Men in Grey Suits, to be replaced by Rishi, Hancock or Liz Truss.

    Hancock v SKS would be the borathon of the century. There are some dream fights between wannabe PMs though - Rishi v Thornberry, Patel v Burgon, JRM v Pidcock, JRM v Eagle (A), Boris v Ian Lavery.....

  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,868
    dixiedean said:

    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Very disappointing to see England's week-on-week decline in vaccination numbers. I think England will need to call in some Scottish experts to help get their vaccination programme back on track.

    Not sure why the snark is necessary. It's only Scotland using the stockpile that has been accumulated.
    Absolutely loving the "Scottish government lying about how many Care Home Residents it has vaccinated" thought line at the moment.
    So, out of 36,000 Care Home residents in Scotland, only 144 have i) not given consent or ii) were not suitable because of current infection?
    There aren't 36,000 older care home resident in long term care in Scotland.



    As at 8:30am on Tuesday 9 February:

    29,908 care home residents (99.7% of residents in older adult care homes and 93% of residents in all care homes)


    Do you think they are lying about vaccinating 29,908 care home residents?
    Got a link?

    This says:

    On 31 March 2017, there were 35,989 adults in care homes

    https://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Health-and-Social-Community-Care/Publications/2018-09-11/2018-09-11-CHCensus-Summary.pdf

    Perhaps you have more up to date figures?

    0.3% refusal does seem very low.....

    0.3% refusal wasn't my biggest worry. A lot of residents (way more than 1 in 300) will have illnesses (such as pneumonia) which should exclude them from getting vaccinated.

    So what happened to them?
    They're excluded from the 30,000 it seems.

    It's patently bullshit. There isn't a slightest chance on earth that fewer than 0.3% are medically excluded from being vaccinated yet, let alone counting refusals.
    Is it really bullshit? When I was a manager I was trained to set targets that were SMART - of which the last three are 'achievable, relevant and targeted'. There is no point in including people who aren't vaccinable as a target in the current programme. The correct thing to do is to note them for another time - but right now they cannot be jabbed and don't count.
    Point of order. Isn't the T timed?
    Doi you know, I can't remember. Surely 'timed' came under the specific and measurable bit? But it's much the same thing anyway - a tagret has to be temporal in part.
    It was hammered into me in my PGCE.
    Which was 20 years ago.
    I suppose it could be targeted in other situations. In education it ain't much use if it's targeted outwith your students.
    Just checked. It's the goals or targets that are SMART with the T timely or time-bound. I do wonder about my memory sometimes - but at least the targeting was still there somewhere ...
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Apol’s for quoting Marina Hyde yet again, but she does make me laugh...

    ‘We do get the occasional glimpse of the prime minister, who was wheeled out this week for a visit to Derby, where we were given yet another opportunity to see Boris Johnson dressed up in a white coat. I think he’s supposed to appear medical and scientific, but only ever succeeds in looking like he’s got a lovely bit of pork cheek he can do you for £3.50.’

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/09/covid-travel-rules-borders-boris-johnson-quarantine

    Typical modern lefty hack, who thinks that snark and sarcasm is a valid substitute for argument and persuasiveness.

    Gets loads of likes on Twitter, but does nothing to actually advance the debate.
    I’ll put you down as a ‘maybe’.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,349
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    Personally I don't care all that much about the origins of the virus. But what the **** were the WHO doing giving the press conference in China?

    I don't either, but the reasons given for ruling out lab escape are so insultingly thin and stupid that the whole thing is obviously just a Don't let's be beastly to the Chinese exercise. So might as well go the whole hog and say so on their territory.
    I think Biden is minded to come back to the WHO as proof that the insanity of Trump has ended and the US is once again a reliable partner but farcical rubbish like this won't make his job any easier.
    I've been searching but I can't find ANY actual new evidence from WHO about the lab-origin theory. Just the bald assertion that they've decided it is "very unlikely"

    What is their argument?
    The Chinese said it didn’t happen, so it didn’t happen.
    Oi! It didn't happen SIR. Where's your respect? And what's happened to your internet connection?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited February 2021
    After all the talk yesterday of BBC vs the big streaming companies...Disney+ already has 86 million subscribers. They project 260 million by 2024.

    https://youtu.be/MVuBMhXhLks
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,270
    Yorkcity said:

    DavidL said:

    Starmer is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn but he has his own problems. He's dull. He has no obvious sense of humour or the ridiculous, he's a bit to worthy and earnest about things that the vast majority really don't care about and he has no obvious vision (or at least he is doing a seriously good job of hiding it if he does). He also hung around with Corbyn for a bit long and tolerated some pretty disgusting behaviour without feeling the need to resign.

    So not such an easy or compelling target but not someone whom the Tories should fear either. He's certainly no Blair and he has no heavyweight like Brown backing him up either. I am sure I have told the story before about a young Osborne and Finklestein going to the Labour party conference about 1994 and getting royally drunk after hearing Blair speak. They were both convinced that they could never beat him and, guess what, they never did. The equivalent attendee at this year's Labour conference is more likely to be worried about staying awake and retaining the will to live.

    I think the odds are fair enough tbh.

    Mike is right about the odds.

    Starmer is OK, but he does need to cull the dead wood from the Shadow Cabinet, and replace it with some pre-Corbyn big hitters (well of those few remaining that Corbyn didn't eject from the party).
    I disagree he needs to use the best new talent like the shadow home Secretary Nick Thomas Symonds.
    He does not need to make it Milliband mark 2 which did not win.
    The public in the main do not care and can hardly name a cabinet member or shadow cabinet member in normal times .
    As in all GE the main focus is the leader ,he is doing fine especially in a pandemic when the government is able to speak to the public everyday which drowns out any other issues.
    So it would be a waste of time to announce them.
    The magic money tree has finally been broken apart as the conservatives have broken this.
    Which will mean they can not easily make this attack work again.
    )
    For starters Dodds is a wallflower. Why not give Yvette an outing?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,270

    I reckon 20% on Starmer being next PM is very generous. I'd put it at around 50%, with the proviso that Covid is over as a health issue, though not an economic one.

    Corbyn has gone. Brexit is done - the outcome will still be an issue, but not Brexit itself. The far, far left are either leaving Labour or being marginalised. Because of Covid, neither Starmer nor his team have had a decent hearing yet on anything other than the crisis. Starmer is no fool: policy development is well under way. The Tories' support is flattered by the pandemic and boosted by vaccination; it's not that deep, and once the health crisis is over the nation will be less inclined to give the government the benefit of the doubt. Tories have been in power a long time. And if the Shadow Cabinet has weaknesses, these are no greater, and I would suggest less, than those in the actual Cabinet. Oh, and people like JRM wittering on about 'happy fish' will lose the Tories votes. Oh, and Boris's appeal will wear a bit thin by 2024.

    I'm almost persuading myself that Starmer has a better than evens chance of next PM.

    It sounds like you are pricing Starmers chance of being PM after the next GE, or even his chance of being PM after the next GE vs B Johnson. This is a huge error as the market is next PM.

    If Starmer does spectacularly well, Johnson will likely be replaced by another Tory, well before the election and the bet loses.
    If Starmer does moderately well, he will struggle with FPTP.

    To win the bet you have either Starmer hits the sweet spot where Johnson can hang on and Starmer can just deny the Tories a majority, or that he does really well only in the campaign itself, once it is too late for the Tories to switch leaders.

    20% is about right, if anything a lay for the above reasons.
    The Tories will go into the next election with the leader best placed to win. Simple as that.

    Hard to say at this stage whether that will still be Boris, or if he has had enough/is shown the door by the Men in Grey Suits, to be replaced by Rishi, Hancock or Liz Truss.

    Wow! I like your list of political Titans to replace Johnson. Can I add Williamson and Jenrick to your list?
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1359200495613673474

    "It has still about the same transmissibility, but it seems that this mutation might enable it to escape immunity to some extent, which means that it's possible it could evade the vaccine."

    Yay.....No way we are going back to normal in 2021.
    I've got tickets to see Blondie with Garbage as the support act in November 2021.

    I soooooooo want to go to that gig.
    My daughters saw her at T in the park some years ago now. All the big bands were there including Coldplay but it was Deborah Harry they kept talking about. Just blew them away.
    She can sing.

    I'm coming to Glasgow to see her and Shirley Manson.
    And once upon a time, the right time for me, she was the sexiest looking woman in the world.

    True story, she was asked about the posters and whether it concerned her that she had, erm, helped so many teenage boys through difficult times. Not at all, she explained. Even when Blondie was briefly the largest selling band in the world she was still making more money off the posters.
    Through hard times, surely?
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited February 2021
    After today's data, even the scientists like Tim Spector are questioning why Johnson does not think of re-opening schools earlier than March 08.

    That is where we are.

    All the 'do you think the government LIKES doing this!!!!!' mob on here.....

    Well, there is some evidence that, yes, they clearly do. Power gets to people, guys.

    Forever lockdown....suggested tin foil hatted insane ranters like......er..... recovery group leader Mark Harper MP.

  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,585

    DavidL said:



    He won't be Corbyn Mark II, but he could easily become Miliband Mark II.

    The nearest Labour came to power was 2017 not 2015 so being EICIPM means Lab do better than 2019 but worse than 2017
    Yes, this fantasy is your biggest problem.

    The 2017GE is absolutely the worst thing to have ever happened to Labour as it confirmed all the whackiest delusions out there.
    And it was really all about how unbelievably crap May was.
    It was a unique set of circumstances. It was a snap election. We had blind polling. We had people using Labour a vehicle to stop Brexit. Theresa May was found out during the campaign, and yet Corbyn hadn't been yet, and many wanted to inhibit her.

    What Labour got right was a pitch to end austerity and a strong retail offer. And the Tories have now learnt that lesson and captured that.

    And don't forget that even in GE2017 Labour still lost by a clear margin in votes and seats - it could have been much worse too; the red wall had started to fracture but had yet to crumble.

    Rather than clinging onto that dream of what could have been they should look to GE2019, which is a true test of where that approach leads and how the political landscape has changed since.
    Yes, May v Corbyn was embarrassing. Like Trump v Clinton only without the stage management.

    The lesson is simple. If Labour could not win against the worst campaign in the world, ever, apparently designed and planned by North Korean robots with a manifesto written by the Monty Python team, with life long Tories turning out with gritted teeth to keep Corbyn out of No 10, they have a real credibility problem.

  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,363

    Yorkcity said:

    DavidL said:

    Starmer is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn but he has his own problems. He's dull. He has no obvious sense of humour or the ridiculous, he's a bit to worthy and earnest about things that the vast majority really don't care about and he has no obvious vision (or at least he is doing a seriously good job of hiding it if he does). He also hung around with Corbyn for a bit long and tolerated some pretty disgusting behaviour without feeling the need to resign.

    So not such an easy or compelling target but not someone whom the Tories should fear either. He's certainly no Blair and he has no heavyweight like Brown backing him up either. I am sure I have told the story before about a young Osborne and Finklestein going to the Labour party conference about 1994 and getting royally drunk after hearing Blair speak. They were both convinced that they could never beat him and, guess what, they never did. The equivalent attendee at this year's Labour conference is more likely to be worried about staying awake and retaining the will to live.

    I think the odds are fair enough tbh.

    Mike is right about the odds.

    Starmer is OK, but he does need to cull the dead wood from the Shadow Cabinet, and replace it with some pre-Corbyn big hitters (well of those few remaining that Corbyn didn't eject from the party).
    I disagree he needs to use the best new talent like the shadow home Secretary Nick Thomas Symonds.
    He does not need to make it Milliband mark 2 which did not win.
    The public in the main do not care and can hardly name a cabinet member or shadow cabinet member in normal times .
    As in all GE the main focus is the leader ,he is doing fine especially in a pandemic when the government is able to speak to the public everyday which drowns out any other issues.
    So it would be a waste of time to announce them.
    The magic money tree has finally been broken apart as the conservatives have broken this.
    Which will mean they can not easily make this attack work again.
    )
    For starters Dodds is a wallflower. Why not give Yvette an outing?
    If you want the Tories to win, by all means why not! She is all hot air and has HIPS added to her lack of credit.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131

    I reckon 20% on Starmer being next PM is very generous. I'd put it at around 50%, with the proviso that Covid is over as a health issue, though not an economic one.

    Corbyn has gone. Brexit is done - the outcome will still be an issue, but not Brexit itself. The far, far left are either leaving Labour or being marginalised. Because of Covid, neither Starmer nor his team have had a decent hearing yet on anything other than the crisis. Starmer is no fool: policy development is well under way. The Tories' support is flattered by the pandemic and boosted by vaccination; it's not that deep, and once the health crisis is over the nation will be less inclined to give the government the benefit of the doubt. Tories have been in power a long time. And if the Shadow Cabinet has weaknesses, these are no greater, and I would suggest less, than those in the actual Cabinet. Oh, and people like JRM wittering on about 'happy fish' will lose the Tories votes. Oh, and Boris's appeal will wear a bit thin by 2024.

    I'm almost persuading myself that Starmer has a better than evens chance of next PM.

    It sounds like you are pricing Starmers chance of being PM after the next GE, or even his chance of being PM after the next GE vs B Johnson. This is a huge error as the market is next PM.

    If Starmer does spectacularly well, Johnson will likely be replaced by another Tory, well before the election and the bet loses.
    If Starmer does moderately well, he will struggle with FPTP.

    To win the bet you have either Starmer hits the sweet spot where Johnson can hang on and Starmer can just deny the Tories a majority, or that he does really well only in the campaign itself, once it is too late for the Tories to switch leaders.

    20% is about right, if anything a lay for the above reasons.
    The Tories will go into the next election with the leader best placed to win. Simple as that.

    Hard to say at this stage whether that will still be Boris, or if he has had enough/is shown the door by the Men in Grey Suits, to be replaced by Rishi, Hancock or Liz Truss.

    Wow! I like your list of political Titans to replace Johnson. Can I add Williamson and Jenrick to your list?
    What is going to crush you is they'd still beat Starmer...
  • Options
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Very disappointing to see England's week-on-week decline in vaccination numbers. I think England will need to call in some Scottish experts to help get their vaccination programme back on track.

    Not sure why the snark is necessary. It's only Scotland using the stockpile that has been accumulated.
    Absolutely loving the "Scottish government lying about how many Care Home Residents it has vaccinated" thought line at the moment.
    So, out of 36,000 Care Home residents in Scotland, only 144 have i) not given consent or ii) were not suitable because of current infection?
    There aren't 36,000 older care home resident in long term care in Scotland.



    As at 8:30am on Tuesday 9 February:

    29,908 care home residents (99.7% of residents in older adult care homes and 93% of residents in all care homes)


    Do you think they are lying about vaccinating 29,908 care home residents?
    Got a link?

    This says:

    On 31 March 2017, there were 35,989 adults in care homes

    https://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Health-and-Social-Community-Care/Publications/2018-09-11/2018-09-11-CHCensus-Summary.pdf

    Perhaps you have more up to date figures?

    0.3% refusal does seem very low.....

    Did you read 3 lines down in your PDF. 35,989 covers all forms of care homes not just OAP care homes.

    The figure under debate is the vaccination of older adults in long term care.

    From your PDF
    At 31 March 2017, there were 31,223 long stay residents in care homes for older people,

    Given the amount of deaths due to mismanagement of Covid last year 30,000osh residents fitting that criteria sounds plausible.

    Do you think the Scottish government is lying about the number of older adults in long term care that they have vaccinated that it reports in its daily briefing? https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-daily-data-for-scotland/
    No, the only question is the denominator.
    It's not 36,000 that's for sure.
    Actually it could be given the high churn in care homes. It could even be higher.

    One factor many don't realise is that many nursing homes operate as a halfway house between the NHS and the Community. Patients are routinely discharged from the NHS into a home for a fortnight, then discharged back home. If each of these residents are counted over the six week period it's entirely possible that over time the quantity of residents is HIGHER than the residents on any individual day.

    The same bed could have been occupied three times during a six week period.
    And that's not "long term care"
    True. But they certainly could have been counted in the nominator while being excluded from the denominator.

    Medically excluded and refused consent totalling 0.3% fails the sniff test. Nobody should have claimed that without someone stopping to say "that doesn't sound plausible". More than 1:300 will be medically excluded let alone refusing consent which will be non negligible.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,762
    edited February 2021
    I wouldn't particularly focus on Starmer's cabinet, which, as is, has vastly more talent in it than Johnson's. I get the impression the star of the "exception that proves the incompetence rule", ie Sunak, is on the wane. Incidentally Sunak is ahead of Starmer in the next PM stakes. A lay, I think.

    A propos. A remarkable 4% of people in Northern Ireland think Brandon "No Sea Border" Lewis is doing a somewhat good job in the Province. A contrast with his capable predecessor Julian Smith, who was sacked from Johnson's cabinet on grounds of competence.

    https://twitter.com/LucidTalk/status/1357469057591705600
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,131
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    Personally I don't care all that much about the origins of the virus. But what the **** were the WHO doing giving the press conference in China?

    I don't either, but the reasons given for ruling out lab escape are so insultingly thin and stupid that the whole thing is obviously just a Don't let's be beastly to the Chinese exercise. So might as well go the whole hog and say so on their territory.
    I think Biden is minded to come back to the WHO as proof that the insanity of Trump has ended and the US is once again a reliable partner but farcical rubbish like this won't make his job any easier.
    I've been searching but I can't find ANY actual new evidence from WHO about the lab-origin theory. Just the bald assertion that they've decided it is "very unlikely"

    What is their argument?

    EDIT: Jesus, I found it

    "Asked why, WHO's Embarek said accidental releases are extremely rare and that the team’s review of the Wuhan institute’s lab operations indicated it would be hard for anything to escape from it."

    OMFG
    Yup. As forensic as that.....

    And taking no account of the upgrades they had seen - that had all been built in the past year before their recent inspection.
This discussion has been closed.