I have no doubt @SouthamObserver is patriotic. But, speaking as a Tory who knows lots of soft Tories, I find this most convincing when he talks about his love of the countryside, the beauty of our landscape and our unique cultural features, which touch him deeply.
Nose wrinkling at the Union Jack as a bit nationalistic, and just talking of internationalism and openness instead, leaves me stone cold.
If you want an audience on the latter you must convince everyone your heart is in the same place on the former.
Is it all out war in the GOP? Is there really a possibility that Trump could be convicted? My answer would have been 'No' but Trump's firing of his legal team may have changed things. This argument taken from a Quora post makes some interesting points.
"Trump has been impeached for a 2nd time and there is a ‘trial’ in the US Senate which requires 67 votes to convict. Democrats have 50 and need 17 Republicans. Only 4, possibly 5, GOP were committed but no worries as the rest had the ‘not constitutional to impeach someone who is no longer in office’ fig leaf to acquit. That is until Trump decided to blow it up with the ‘election was stolen’ defense which means if Republican Senators vote to acquit as Trump is asserting the certification of Biden was illegal, they in effect have negated their votes to certify and he owns them forever.
McConnell cannot let that happen as everyone has said. Trump could have ‘taken the W’ but he decided to burn the Republicans and take control of the party now and not wait to do it slowly. This is a full on assault by Trump. Meanwhile McConnell has to prepare to fight to save himself and the ‘governing’ wing of the GOP and he chose to start with Marjorie Taylor-Greene whom Trump is backing. MTG is a QAnon and has made remarks on basically killing Pelosi among other ‘loony’ statements according to McConnell."
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
I have just been informed that Sir Captain Tom Moore family took him on holiday to the Caribbean at Christmas. Which seemed to me a quite dangerous thing to do in a pandemic, with a vulnerable 100 year old man.
Most 100 year old men live with extreme danger every day of their lives.
Not disagreeing with that. However what about his over 60 children. It is them that I do not think did not do the right thing.They would have organised it.
Stay at home but its OK to all go abroad if you take a hero in a pandemic.
Listening to 'More or less' in the background and not sure if I picked this up correctly so would appreciate feedback because if I have understood this correctly it makes the excellent efforts in tracking down the latest strain of virus potentially of limited benefit (although probably still worth doing).
I believe they stated that the genome sequencing takes 6 weeks, so the data they have relates to December.
I assumed, because the main stream media doesn't give any other details, that the latest variant would have been discovered from say tests that were from a few days to a week old.
Have I completely misunderstood?
Sequencing may take 6 weeks, but now we know it, we can find it in hours.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
Spot on. Starmer has no choice but to seek to correct the 'anti-British' narrative that took hold in the Corbyn years.
I'd ague that it went back even further. Remember all the stuff about Ed Miliband - his father was a (foreign) communist, so the implication from the tabloids was that he was obviously on the side of the Russians. Absurd, but it would have had cut through among some. Then along came Corbyn to exacerbate the 'Labour hates Britain' meme. Starmer wouldn't have to be doing the flag stuff without the history of the last 10 years.
It does go back quite a few years sadly - and of course it is linked very much to the dominance of the London party. Also probably some links to the party's reliance on ethnic votes in some of the big and not so big cities, which in recent years have among some of the more politicised tended to be less supportive of patriotism. The anti-patriotic mood did grow a lot stronger during the Corbyn era and despite his demise I suspect is still very strong within sime of the membership.
Actually, research indicates that ethnic minorities tend to have a comparatively strong feeling of Britishness:
It's not really surprising. There's no such thing as "British" in racial terms. It's a more inclusive and welcoming identity.
Yup, when I see a group of guys in Glasgow festooned in UJs, my immediate impulse is to ask them for a cuddle. I’m sure that impulse is even stronger if you’re from an ethnic minority.
You screwed up (accidently but in style) so we want to use that to solve our screw up and get the time we should have asked for in the first place to ensure we can work out what paperwork our demands created.
In fairness to Gove - and I’m not his biggest fan - I thought that was the point of negotiating?
Negotiations were finished in December remember - we left on December 31st.
Gove is now desperately using anything (and everything) to solve the mess the UK Government created by not asking for a transition period.
But we were also told they would be continuing as matters evolved - which they have, some for reasons that should have been obvious (and were obvious to everyone except the government, apparently) and others because of a huge unforced error by the EU. So, no I'm not unduly concerned about his attempt to use that as leverage, even though it would have been better had he done the job properly first time around.
Anyone realistic would always expect disruption and teething issues doing the biggest change in our trading terms in nearly half a century.
To have ongoing negotiations to resolve any issues that come up is entirely logical.
To use the other sides own goals to pressure them to resolve issues in a way beneficial to yourself is entirely logical.
Look where uncritical adherence to a party line can get you.
What's your point?
If any problems are swiftly identified, corrected and fixed then yes it would in my eyes fall under the category of "disruption and teething problems".
If you don't fix them, that becomes a more serious longterm concern.
Hence: "To have ongoing negotiations to resolve any issues that come up is entirely logical." I'm not expecting all issues to just magically go away.
The thing is, Philip, that while the UK has a lot of reasons for wanting to re-negotiate the EU itself does not.
Which is why Gove is so desperate to use the Article 16 howler because it's the only thing that has occurred in a month that gives Gove any reason to get the EU back at the table.
If you were right, then that shows Gove is good at his job at exercising the levers he has available to him. Well done Gove.
The European Union are waking up to what the British already knew. There are two communities in Northern Ireland and you can't permanently upset one of them without reprisals.
That the EU know they have a problem and they have lost any claim to the moral high ground means it is time to talk like adults and find a real solution. F**k the loyalist community is not a real solution. Mutual recognition of SPS so that SPS paperwork was abolished would be a very good starting point.
That's what they also need to do wrt Covid. Ignoring lessons from past Brit mistakes will cost lives, esp. when combined with priority to arsecovering, and anti-AZT politics.
This is the same as Dr Campbell is predicting for the US - that the "Kent" variant hasn't got going there yet, and when it does, case numbers and deaths will shoot sharply upwards.
It has to be said that recent US data suggests the opposite, that cases are still falling away, as they are here.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
I agree RP sees a bit bitter and twisted whatever SKS does .
I want to see Labour resurrected to a party that actually can win elections - Starmer was the absolute best option of a limited bunch. Pointing out that he isn't very good isn't being bitter and twisted - doing so when he was clearly doing very well might be, but he isn't.
I have no problem at all with Labour using the union jack and my point was that Blair did so successfully and convincingly. Its not criticism of Keir having flag backdrops, its that he's doing so because focus groups have told him that he needs to put on a show. Its fake.
I do not believe it is fake from SKS,. What do base that allegation on ? Are you saying SKS is not patriotic and wanting the best for this county. Mandalson was criticised at the time for using the British bulldog in the Blair era. Blair was said to be Bambi and to soft in opposition. Maybe this passed you buy.
Starmer is a north London MP who served comfortably under the worst excesses of Corbynism right through the entire anti-semitism period. He may well be a repentant sinner but he is yet to prove so. He still leads a party with a significant numner of MPs who are embarrassed by a very large section of their support base and who still tolerate the proportion whose allegiance to their country is somewhat limited. Even some of his shadow cabinet, including Nandy, Rayner and Green have let the mask slip in recent weeks. Starmer, like all politicians wants the best for his country - he has to convince people that his image matches enough of their views about what it means.
That's good but it's a shame it's not the Imperial one. I expect this is just for fill and finish as well, still important of course but not actually producing the active ingredient.
The GSK Sanofi partnership was a mistake and the government should have made Imperial and GSK partner for a second all domestic vaccine.
No, it looks to be full manufacturing license - and they have the majority of the worldwide rights to the follow on vaccine. GSK/Sanofi was an entirely reasonable deal, as it used the two companies existing strengths in vaccines, and was a sensible way of getting a program going quickly. Just a shame it didn't quite work.
And GSK would have been quite big enough to do a deal with imperial as well, had government backed it. I suspect they didn't at the time because it wasn't clear how quickly it could be developed.
You screwed up (accidently but in style) so we want to use that to solve our screw up and get the time we should have asked for in the first place to ensure we can work out what paperwork our demands created.
In fairness to Gove - and I’m not his biggest fan - I thought that was the point of negotiating?
Negotiations were finished in December remember - we left on December 31st.
Gove is now desperately using anything (and everything) to solve the mess the UK Government created by not asking for a transition period.
But we were also told they would be continuing as matters evolved - which they have, some for reasons that should have been obvious (and were obvious to everyone except the government, apparently) and others because of a huge unforced error by the EU. So, no I'm not unduly concerned about his attempt to use that as leverage, even though it would have been better had he done the job properly first time around.
Anyone realistic would always expect disruption and teething issues doing the biggest change in our trading terms in nearly half a century.
To have ongoing negotiations to resolve any issues that come up is entirely logical.
To use the other sides own goals to pressure them to resolve issues in a way beneficial to yourself is entirely logical.
Look where uncritical adherence to a party line can get you.
What's your point?
If any problems are swiftly identified, corrected and fixed then yes it would in my eyes fall under the category of "disruption and teething problems".
If you don't fix them, that becomes a more serious longterm concern.
Hence: "To have ongoing negotiations to resolve any issues that come up is entirely logical." I'm not expecting all issues to just magically go away.
The thing is, Philip, that while the UK has a lot of reasons for wanting to re-negotiate the EU itself does not.
Which is why Gove is so desperate to use the Article 16 howler because it's the only thing that has occurred in a month that gives Gove any reason to get the EU back at the table.
If you were right, then that shows Gove is good at his job at exercising the levers he has available to him. Well done Gove.
The European Union are waking up to what the British already knew. There are two communities in Northern Ireland and you can't permanently upset one of them without reprisals.
That the EU know they have a problem and they have lost any claim to the moral high ground means it is time to talk like adults and find a real solution. F**k the loyalist community is not a real solution. Mutual recognition of SPS so that SPS paperwork was abolished would be a very good starting point.
That's what they also need to do wrt Covid. Ignoring lessons from past Brit mistakes will cost lives, esp. when combined with priority to arsecovering, and anti-AZT politics.
In one sense the EU have been lucky. Kent Covid hit the UK in winter, when people were inside and we weren't aware it was coming. The EU are warned about the risk of it and the extra few months with it are probably going to be through the Spring and Summer were outside social distancing is more viable.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Is it all out war in the GOP? Is there really a possibility that Trump could be convicted? My answer would have been 'No' but Trump's firing of his legal team may have changed things. This argument taken from a Quora post makes some interesting points.
"Trump has been impeached for a 2nd time and there is a ‘trial’ in the US Senate which requires 67 votes to convict. Democrats have 50 and need 17 Republicans. Only 4, possibly 5, GOP were committed but no worries as the rest had the ‘not constitutional to impeach someone who is no longer in office’ fig leaf to acquit. That is until Trump decided to blow it up with the ‘election was stolen’ defense which means if Republican Senators vote to acquit as Trump is asserting the certification of Biden was illegal, they in effect have negated their votes to certify and he owns them forever.
McConnell cannot let that happen as everyone has said. Trump could have ‘taken the W’ but he decided to burn the Republicans and take control of the party now and not wait to do it slowly. This is a full on assault by Trump. Meanwhile McConnell has to prepare to fight to save himself and the ‘governing’ wing of the GOP and he chose to start with Marjorie Taylor-Greene whom Trump is backing. MTG is a QAnon and has made remarks on basically killing Pelosi among other ‘loony’ statements according to McConnell."
I thought the latest was that Trump has finally dropped his intention to use the trial to represent his accusations about the stolen election?
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
No one can credibly argue that now either. As for my message, I wouldn't put it in a PPB. But there are certain types whose votes should not be chased and whose worldview should not be pandered to. Patriotism, yes. But some of the pernicious nonsense that gets wrongly attached to that notion, no.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
I suspect that the first sentence was tongue in cheek knowing @kinabalu (how old are you really kinabalu?). After all, all parties rely on a subset of people voting for them who haven't a clue what they are doing sadly.
Re the 2nd para - things have moved on since then. We are more international, more multi racial, we even joined the EU. I think it is very difficult to compare patriotism now to 50 years ago, or 100 years ago. A 100 years ago it would be supporting the Empire and keeping the fuzzy wuzzies in their place. I think you would need to go to the extremes of patriotism to find that opinion relevant today.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
It's not just the EU flag. Trade union flags, Palestine, etc. There are plenty of flags on all sides. The strange thing is that in lots of countries e.g. France there is no problem or insinuations about self gratification related to the flag, whereas in the UK it seems to be different.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
That'll get 'em back!
The embodiment of the "F. off and vote Tory" mentality that served Corbyn's Labour party so well in 2019.
You screwed up (accidently but in style) so we want to use that to solve our screw up and get the time we should have asked for in the first place to ensure we can work out what paperwork our demands created.
I would actually like to understand more about the customs issues, both with exporting into NI and exporting to mainland Europe. Posters on PB are excellent with knowledge, but unfortunately the Brexit issue is too emotive to allow for descriptions of the issues that don't turn into incensed ranting.
My position on this at the moment is that I don't have an issue with us needing to provide more information/submit to more checks as a third nation, but that we should be able to make these processes quicker, simpler and easier over time. I understood that when we left, checks on our exports would be spot checks rather than 'everything' checks, and at present I don't know whether that is happening or not.
On the face of it, the tone of Gove's letter seems too combative - unless the plan is for a spat that results in unilateral action by us.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
No one can credibly argue that now either. As for my message, I wouldn't put it in a PPB. But there are certain types whose votes should not be chased and whose worldview should not be pandered to. Patriotism, yes. But some of the pernicious nonsense that gets wrongly attached to that notion, no.
Or to put it in a less incendiary way, one art of winning elections is to know which of your core voters you shouldn't pander to, so as to win more votes elsewhere. (See Blair, Cameron, Johnson...)
You screwed up (accidently but in style) so we want to use that to solve our screw up and get the time we should have asked for in the first place to ensure we can work out what paperwork our demands created.
In fairness to Gove - and I’m not his biggest fan - I thought that was the point of negotiating?
Negotiations were finished in December remember - we left on December 31st.
Gove is now desperately using anything (and everything) to solve the mess the UK Government created by not asking for a transition period.
But we were also told they would be continuing as matters evolved - which they have, some for reasons that should have been obvious (and were obvious to everyone except the government, apparently) and others because of a huge unforced error by the EU. So, no I'm not unduly concerned about his attempt to use that as leverage, even though it would have been better had he done the job properly first time around.
Anyone realistic would always expect disruption and teething issues doing the biggest change in our trading terms in nearly half a century.
To have ongoing negotiations to resolve any issues that come up is entirely logical.
To use the other sides own goals to pressure them to resolve issues in a way beneficial to yourself is entirely logical.
Look where uncritical adherence to a party line can get you.
What's your point?
If any problems are swiftly identified, corrected and fixed then yes it would in my eyes fall under the category of "disruption and teething problems".
If you don't fix them, that becomes a more serious longterm concern.
Hence: "To have ongoing negotiations to resolve any issues that come up is entirely logical." I'm not expecting all issues to just magically go away.
The thing is, Philip, that while the UK has a lot of reasons for wanting to re-negotiate the EU itself does not.
Which is why Gove is so desperate to use the Article 16 howler because it's the only thing that has occurred in a month that gives Gove any reason to get the EU back at the table.
The EU have to come back to the table because there's a realisation that, while the Irish government stood up for the interests of the Nationalist community in Northern Ireland, the Johnson Ministry abandoned its responsibilities to the Unionist community - and so Johnson's Brexit Deal doesn't represent a durable settlement.
There never was a logical solution that would respect the imperatives of all parties, as I set out in the Brexit trilemma article, and now the consequences of that are becoming apparent.
When you have no logical solutions you need to find the best illogical solution.
Fudge is the solution. Fudge is the spirit of the GFA. It is entirely plausible if the will is there.
You can't easily fudge something when the foundations the previous fudge is based on no longer exist.
The GFA was a fudge that worked because we were all in the EU and a Northern Ireland that is part in the UK and part in Eire was possible because we both part of the EU. And even that fudge took 10+ years to get into place.
So how do you create a new fudge in weeks when half the foundations have disintegrated.
Just because something isn't easy does not mean it isn't viable. Especially when we've had 5 years to put in place an alternative. The Irish were negotiating with the UK for alternative solutions until Theresa May unexpectedly lost her majority and the EU hardened their stance. It was a political choice, not a fact of life, to choose not to find an alternative sooner.
So if you need to find one in weeks then JFDI. Troubleshoot. Find a problem, figure out a solution, even if it is temporary.
Is SPS paperwork causing an issue? If so, figure out a way to make that go away. Maybe waive it until an alternative is put in place. Maybe agree mutual recognition so that the paperwork is no longer required.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
No one can credibly argue that now either. As for my message, I wouldn't put it in a PPB. But there are certain types whose votes should not be chased and whose worldview should not be pandered to. Patriotism, yes. But some of the pernicious nonsense that gets wrongly attached to that notion, no.
How many more general election defeats would you like to suffer before you accept the need to compromise with the electorate?
I have just been informed that Sir Captain Tom Moore family took him on holiday to the Caribbean at Christmas. Which seemed to me a quite dangerous thing to do in a pandemic, with a vulnerable 100 year old man.
I gather it was something he wanted to do. He has given us such inspiration in his last year that I'm sure he wouldn't mind his death being an object lesson in why the government has given the advice it gave.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
It's not just the EU flag. Trade union flags, Palestine, etc. There are plenty of flags on all sides. The strange thing is that in lots of countries e.g. France there is no problem or insinuations about self gratification related to the flag, whereas in the UK it seems to be different.
Because there's nothing wrong with flags.
The problem is that some people hate their own country. They hate what the flag represents. They are ashamed of their own nation and loathe to see their own flag as a result.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
I think Labour are where the Conservatives were c.2004 - i.e. they haven't smelled the coffee yet. This is astonishing given that, in real time, they should be where Kinnock was in 1990 or Cameron was in 2008.
Far too many in Labour think that if they just sit back and wait the demographics will do the work for them, without them needing to compromise much, in one or two general elections time.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
It's not just the EU flag. Trade union flags, Palestine, etc. There are plenty of flags on all sides. The strange thing is that in lots of countries e.g. France there is no problem or insinuations about self gratification related to the flag, whereas in the UK it seems to be different.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
No one can credibly argue that now either. As for my message, I wouldn't put it in a PPB. But there are certain types whose votes should not be chased and whose worldview should not be pandered to. Patriotism, yes. But some of the pernicious nonsense that gets wrongly attached to that notion, no.
You screwed up (accidently but in style) so we want to use that to solve our screw up and get the time we should have asked for in the first place to ensure we can work out what paperwork our demands created.
In fairness to Gove - and I’m not his biggest fan - I thought that was the point of negotiating?
Negotiations were finished in December remember - we left on December 31st.
Gove is now desperately using anything (and everything) to solve the mess the UK Government created by not asking for a transition period.
But we were also told they would be continuing as matters evolved - which they have, some for reasons that should have been obvious (and were obvious to everyone except the government, apparently) and others because of a huge unforced error by the EU. So, no I'm not unduly concerned about his attempt to use that as leverage, even though it would have been better had he done the job properly first time around.
Anyone realistic would always expect disruption and teething issues doing the biggest change in our trading terms in nearly half a century.
To have ongoing negotiations to resolve any issues that come up is entirely logical.
To use the other sides own goals to pressure them to resolve issues in a way beneficial to yourself is entirely logical.
Look where uncritical adherence to a party line can get you.
What's your point?
If any problems are swiftly identified, corrected and fixed then yes it would in my eyes fall under the category of "disruption and teething problems".
If you don't fix them, that becomes a more serious longterm concern.
Hence: "To have ongoing negotiations to resolve any issues that come up is entirely logical." I'm not expecting all issues to just magically go away.
The thing is, Philip, that while the UK has a lot of reasons for wanting to re-negotiate the EU itself does not.
Which is why Gove is so desperate to use the Article 16 howler because it's the only thing that has occurred in a month that gives Gove any reason to get the EU back at the table.
The EU have to come back to the table because there's a realisation that, while the Irish government stood up for the interests of the Nationalist community in Northern Ireland, the Johnson Ministry abandoned its responsibilities to the Unionist community - and so Johnson's Brexit Deal doesn't represent a durable settlement.
There never was a logical solution that would respect the imperatives of all parties, as I set out in the Brexit trilemma article, and now the consequences of that are becoming apparent.
When you have no logical solutions you need to find the best illogical solution.
Fudge is the solution. Fudge is the spirit of the GFA. It is entirely plausible if the will is there.
There is a noble British tradition for fudge, yes. But I fear that belongs to an old Britain that is being pushed aside by the zeal of the new.
How many Brexit supporters on the Tory backbenches will respect the quantity of fudge necessary to finesse the border issue, rather than pick away at the contradictions, the implied loss of sovereignty, etc?
I don't see the room for fudge in our increasingly binary, digital world. There is no compromise now. Everything is a stick to beat your opponent with until they are bludgeoned into submission.
One of the consequences of Brexit was that the European Parliament lost a significant chunk of diversity - I wonder how many individual parliaments in Europe will be able to run similar campaigns?
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
I think Labour are where the Conservatives were c.2004 - i.e. they haven't smelled the coffee yet. This is astonishing given that, in real time, they should be where Kinnock was in 1990 or Cameron was in 2008.
Far too many in Labour think that if they just sit back and wait the demographics will do the work for them, without them needing to compromise much, in one or two general elections time.
They won't. It's a fantasy.
Tories c.2004 (IDS gone but still not ready to straighten up) or Labour 1985 - before Kinnock's Militant Speech.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
It's not just the EU flag. Trade union flags, Palestine, etc. There are plenty of flags on all sides. The strange thing is that in lots of countries e.g. France there is no problem or insinuations about self gratification related to the flag, whereas in the UK it seems to be different.
Because there's nothing wrong with flags.
The problem is that some people hate their own country. They hate what the flag represents. They are ashamed of their own nation and loathe to see their own flag as a result.
I don't think that's the issue. For a lot of people of a certain age the appearance of the Union Jack outside the limited contexts we are used to seeing it (on council / other public buildings) brings back memories of the National Front and other similar groups.
The flag as a symbol was stolen in the 70s/80s and not enough was done then to solve the damage its misappropriation then has done longer term.
If it wasn't there historically and doesn't need to be there I always have to stop and think wtf is it suddenly there?
FFS, Sky News report on paper on AZN.........grrhhhhhhhhhhhh......
They stated the scientific community divided over 3 month gap...ok, on Pfizer right, no, no mention of that....new paper says 3 month doesn't lower efficacy..grrrhhhh...no it finds it is optimal range...and in conclusion, this paper suggests government gamble might be right....no it says nothing about Pfizer.
i mean FFS...and this is from their supposed health correspondent.
This confusion (media favourite word) is worse than stuff like peoppe died yesterday reports.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
No one can credibly argue that now either. As for my message, I wouldn't put it in a PPB. But there are certain types whose votes should not be chased and whose worldview should not be pandered to. Patriotism, yes. But some of the pernicious nonsense that gets wrongly attached to that notion, no.
Or to put it in a less incendiary way, one art of winning elections is to know which of your core voters you shouldn't pander to, so as to win more votes elsewhere. (See Blair, Cameron, Johnson...)
'tis the reason the Tories never let their conference decide party policy.
I have just been informed that Sir Captain Tom Moore family took him on holiday to the Caribbean at Christmas. Which seemed to me a quite dangerous thing to do in a pandemic, with a vulnerable 100 year old man.
Why the assumption it wasn't his decision to go? It was clearly a bit risky, but maybe it was something he'd always wanted to do and this was an opportunity.
Is there a place for a national COVID-deaths memorial?
Thinking of eg Thiepval, National Memorial Arboretum, Vietnam Veterans Memorial etc as models.
Would give a place to focus, and also a place to mourn for individuals who's deaths we may have been forced to miss.
There was a piece in one of the newspapers the other day (Guardian?) saying if you look at history all this will quickly be forgotten and there wont be any kind of memorials unless someone puts some effort into setting up a campaign etc.
Listening to 'More or less' in the background and not sure if I picked this up correctly so would appreciate feedback because if I have understood this correctly it makes the excellent efforts in tracking down the latest strain of virus potentially of limited benefit (although probably still worth doing).
I believe they stated that the genome sequencing takes 6 weeks, so the data they have relates to December.
I assumed, because the main stream media doesn't give any other details, that the latest variant would have been discovered from say tests that were from a few days to a week old.
Have I completely misunderstood?
Sequencing may take 6 weeks, but now we know it, we can find it in hours.
Oh I agree. I just had no idea of the 6 week figure. Not seen it mentioned anywhere before. I had assumed that the new strain was detected say a week or so ago in these places. I had no idea it was 6+ weeks old
I think the efforts are definitely still worthwhile, but it does put it in another perspective in terms of possible transmission.
I wonder how many people on here knew we were talking about people tested in December?
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
It's not just the EU flag. Trade union flags, Palestine, etc. There are plenty of flags on all sides. The strange thing is that in lots of countries e.g. France there is no problem or insinuations about self gratification related to the flag, whereas in the UK it seems to be different.
Because there's nothing wrong with flags.
The problem is that some people hate their own country. They hate what the flag represents. They are ashamed of their own nation and loathe to see their own flag as a result.
FFS, Sky News report on paper on AZN.........grrhhhhhhhhhhhh......
They stated the scientific community divided over 3 month gap...ok, on Pfizer right, no, no mention of that....new paper says 3 month doesn't lower efficacy..grrrhhhh...no it finds it is optimal range...and in conclusion, this paper suggests government gamble might be right....no it says nothing about Pfizer.
i mean FFS...and this is from their supposed health correspondent.
This confusion (media favourite word) is worse than stuff like peoppe died yesterday reports.
I watched their report last night. It was so shit that I had to turn off the telly. Absolute amateurish garbage.
I’m running out of TV news sources: even C4 News is dire these days.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
No one can credibly argue that now either. As for my message, I wouldn't put it in a PPB. But there are certain types whose votes should not be chased and whose worldview should not be pandered to. Patriotism, yes. But some of the pernicious nonsense that gets wrongly attached to that notion, no.
Or to put it in a less incendiary way, one art of winning elections is to know which of your core voters you shouldn't pander to, so as to win more votes elsewhere. (See Blair, Cameron, Johnson...)
'tis the reason the Tories never let their conference decide party policy.
Or, indeed, the party leader for a long time. Sound chaps, those old-school Tories.
I seem to recall some PBers have mentioned Kemi Badenoch as a rising star. The piece on her on Woman’s Hour just now (which she refused to participate in) suggests that judgment was somewhat misplaced.
Reflecting on passports, I think there could (perhaps should) be a field in the pasport biometric record, or perhaps in a visa wrt to COVID jab status.
If no field, no entry.
I wonder whether there will be implications for Shengen?
I think ideally it should happen, but in todays nationalistic age how is this going to really work? Over 65 and taken AZ, cant travel to France or Germany? Taken Sinopharm, not recognised in the US, maybe not here? And so on.
Morning all.
Quite a thought that, especially when travelling to the Chinese 'sphere of influence' such as SE Asia. At some time soon, the WHO is going to have to get sa grip on what works, what doesn't and perchance publish a list. Or something!
They all work at stopping hospitalisation which is good enough for me. Id be happy to take any of the ones approved in multiple countries. But there wont be agreement on this, the same people who are most outraged by the German and French idiocy on AZ are equally idiotic about Chinese and Russian vaccines. Even the BBC and Guardian struggle to admit that they even exist, let alone were approved before our first in the world approval. Sadly flags matter more than science here.
The reason Russian and Chinese vaccines are not trusted by - by me, anyway - is that there is zero transparency in their countries. How could I possibly have any confidence at all in their medicines regulators or any trial or testing reports coming out of there given that there is no scope for free inquiry or truth-telling?
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
That'll get 'em back!
We don't want em back unless they share Labour values. Anybody who has Tory values should vote Tory. I know it's not as binary as that, but just to make the point. You can focus group to the nth degree but there comes a point where you should remember the fundamentals. These are our values. Do you share them? These are our policies. Do you like them? You don't? Well don't vote for us then.
One of the consequences of Brexit was that the European Parliament lost a significant chunk of diversity - I wonder how many individual parliaments in Europe will be able to run similar campaigns?
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
It's not just the EU flag. Trade union flags, Palestine, etc. There are plenty of flags on all sides. The strange thing is that in lots of countries e.g. France there is no problem or insinuations about self gratification related to the flag, whereas in the UK it seems to be different.
Because there's nothing wrong with flags.
The problem is that some people hate their own country. They hate what the flag represents. They are ashamed of their own nation and loathe to see their own flag as a result.
I don't think that's the issue. For a lot of people of a certain age the appearance of the Union Jack outside the limited contexts we are used to seeing it (on council / other public buildings) brings back memories of the National Front and other similar groups.
The flag as a symbol was stolen in the 70s/80s and not enough was done then to solve the damage its misappropriation then has done longer term.
If it wasn't there historically and doesn't need to be there I always have to stop and think wtf is it suddenly there?
For reference when it comes to this I always go back to Morrissey being glassed off at Madstock - where everything was fine until he picks up and waves the St George flag.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
That'll get 'em back!
We don't want em back unless they share Labour values. Anybody who has Tory values should vote Tory. I know it's not as binary as that, but just to make the point. You can focus group to the nth degree but there comes a point where you should remember the fundamentals. These are our values. Do you share them? These are our policies. Do you like them? You don't? Well don't vote for us then.
And then you don't get into power and you don't get to implement any of them. The fox may know many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
You screwed up (accidently but in style) so we want to use that to solve our screw up and get the time we should have asked for in the first place to ensure we can work out what paperwork our demands created.
In fairness to Gove - and I’m not his biggest fan - I thought that was the point of negotiating?
Negotiations were finished in December remember - we left on December 31st.
Gove is now desperately using anything (and everything) to solve the mess the UK Government created by not asking for a transition period.
But we were also told they would be continuing as matters evolved - which they have, some for reasons that should have been obvious (and were obvious to everyone except the government, apparently) and others because of a huge unforced error by the EU. So, no I'm not unduly concerned about his attempt to use that as leverage, even though it would have been better had he done the job properly first time around.
Anyone realistic would always expect disruption and teething issues doing the biggest change in our trading terms in nearly half a century.
To have ongoing negotiations to resolve any issues that come up is entirely logical.
To use the other sides own goals to pressure them to resolve issues in a way beneficial to yourself is entirely logical.
Look where uncritical adherence to a party line can get you.
What's your point?
If any problems are swiftly identified, corrected and fixed then yes it would in my eyes fall under the category of "disruption and teething problems".
If you don't fix them, that becomes a more serious longterm concern.
Hence: "To have ongoing negotiations to resolve any issues that come up is entirely logical." I'm not expecting all issues to just magically go away.
The thing is, Philip, that while the UK has a lot of reasons for wanting to re-negotiate the EU itself does not.
Which is why Gove is so desperate to use the Article 16 howler because it's the only thing that has occurred in a month that gives Gove any reason to get the EU back at the table.
The EU have to come back to the table because there's a realisation that, while the Irish government stood up for the interests of the Nationalist community in Northern Ireland, the Johnson Ministry abandoned its responsibilities to the Unionist community - and so Johnson's Brexit Deal doesn't represent a durable settlement.
There never was a logical solution that would respect the imperatives of all parties, as I set out in the Brexit trilemma article, and now the consequences of that are becoming apparent.
When you have no logical solutions you need to find the best illogical solution.
Fudge is the solution. Fudge is the spirit of the GFA. It is entirely plausible if the will is there.
There is a noble British tradition for fudge, yes. But I fear that belongs to an old Britain that is being pushed aside by the zeal of the new.
How many Brexit supporters on the Tory backbenches will respect the quantity of fudge necessary to finesse the border issue, rather than pick away at the contradictions, the implied loss of sovereignty, etc?
I don't see the room for fudge in our increasingly binary, digital world. There is no compromise now. Everything is a stick to beat your opponent with until they are bludgeoned into submission.
That's the problem, people have sought a binary submissive solution rather than fudging it.
A fudge solution shouldn't involve a "loss of sovereignty". The GFA didn't result in a "loss of sovereignty" for the UK or Eire. It works by treating all communities with respect - and yes if that results in contradictions then ignore them.
The UK or NI being forced into the EU's regime isn't fudge, it is subjugation. It is as you put it bludgeoning them into submission. The solution is mutual respect and recognition. Accept that standards may be different, but you'll recognise them anyway. Accept and mutually recognise each others SPS etc and don't require paperwork.
That is a problem for the "integrity of the Single Market" because there's no hard border then between the EU and the UK. Well tough, that's the price to pay for peace. NI then has an open border with the Republic and with GB simultaneously.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
I think Labour are where the Conservatives were c.2004 - i.e. they haven't smelled the coffee yet. This is astonishing given that, in real time, they should be where Kinnock was in 1990 or Cameron was in 2008.
Far too many in Labour think that if they just sit back and wait the demographics will do the work for them, without them needing to compromise much, in one or two general elections time.
They won't. It's a fantasy.
Tories c.2004 (IDS gone but still not ready to straighten up) or Labour 1985 - before Kinnock's Militant Speech.
I've got the Oxford Dictionary of Political Quotations, from 2005, and its entry for that speech has Neil saying 'a Labour Council' only once, which is a bit odd - his repetition of the phrase is the most famous bit.
Is there a place for a national COVID-deaths memorial?
Thinking of eg Thiepval, National Memorial Arboretum, Vietnam Veterans Memorial etc as models.
Would give a place to focus, and also a place to mourn for individuals who's deaths we may have been forced to miss.
There was a piece in one of the newspapers the other day (Guardian?) saying if you look at history all this will quickly be forgotten and there wont be any kind of memorials unless someone puts some effort into setting up a campaign etc.
Like WW1 was the first war to properly live on, there's video this time. That changes things.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
That'll get 'em back!
We don't want em back unless they share Labour values. Anybody who has Tory values should vote Tory. I know it's not as binary as that, but just to make the point. You can focus group to the nth degree but there comes a point where you should remember the fundamentals. These are our values. Do you share them? These are our policies. Do you like them? You don't? Well don't vote for us then.
I have just been informed that Sir Captain Tom Moore family took him on holiday to the Caribbean at Christmas. Which seemed to me a quite dangerous thing to do in a pandemic, with a vulnerable 100 year old man.
Why the assumption it wasn't his decision to go? It was clearly a bit risky, but maybe it was something he'd always wanted to do and this was an opportunity.
It was expressly on his bucket list - he wanted to go. There is no evidence he was infected on his trip, the timing would suggest not.
Reflecting on passports, I think there could (perhaps should) be a field in the pasport biometric record, or perhaps in a visa wrt to COVID jab status.
If no field, no entry.
I wonder whether there will be implications for Shengen?
I think ideally it should happen, but in todays nationalistic age how is this going to really work? Over 65 and taken AZ, cant travel to France or Germany? Taken Sinopharm, not recognised in the US, maybe not here? And so on.
Morning all.
Quite a thought that, especially when travelling to the Chinese 'sphere of influence' such as SE Asia. At some time soon, the WHO is going to have to get sa grip on what works, what doesn't and perchance publish a list. Or something!
They all work at stopping hospitalisation which is good enough for me. Id be happy to take any of the ones approved in multiple countries. But there wont be agreement on this, the same people who are most outraged by the German and French idiocy on AZ are equally idiotic about Chinese and Russian vaccines. Even the BBC and Guardian struggle to admit that they even exist, let alone were approved before our first in the world approval. Sadly flags matter more than science here.
The reason Russian and Chinese vaccines are not trusted by - by me, anyway - is that there is zero transparency in their countries. How could I possibly have any confidence at all in their medicines regulators or any trial or testing reports coming out of there given that there is no scope for free inquiry or truth-telling?
It's about the chain of trust. In Russia and China, some of the links in the chain are pretty broken.
For Russia, for example
- I would trust the scientists to do their job - I have no trust in the honesty of the Russian government. - I have concerns about quality control in Russian industry
But that isn't "patriotism". That's just the basic offer to the voters of any party seeking power. There is no over-arching love of country that underpins that offer.
Good thing too. Over-arching love of country is for shitheads, quite frankly.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
I think Labour are where the Conservatives were c.2004 - i.e. they haven't smelled the coffee yet. This is astonishing given that, in real time, they should be where Kinnock was in 1990 or Cameron was in 2008.
Far too many in Labour think that if they just sit back and wait the demographics will do the work for them, without them needing to compromise much, in one or two general elections time.
They won't. It's a fantasy.
15 years ago a lot of pundits were saying the Tories would struggle to ever again get back into government due to changing demographics. They were right as far as London is concerned, which is probably where most of them were/are living.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
No one can credibly argue that now either. As for my message, I wouldn't put it in a PPB. But there are certain types whose votes should not be chased and whose worldview should not be pandered to. Patriotism, yes. But some of the pernicious nonsense that gets wrongly attached to that notion, no.
How many more general election defeats would you like to suffer before you accept the need to compromise with the electorate?
Compromise is fine. So is more empathetic communication. And squeezing out the last of the "anti-west" dogma from the Corbyn time. But what's not fine is a sellout of core values. If there's a serious values gap I'd rather the party tried to move people than move towards them.
I have just been informed that Sir Captain Tom Moore family took him on holiday to the Caribbean at Christmas. Which seemed to me a quite dangerous thing to do in a pandemic, with a vulnerable 100 year old man.
No write-off, the physicist Hans Bethe was writing research papers well into his nineties.
Sir Captain Tom Moore raised £33m for charity.
One of the most amazing things Ive seen was refreshing his website every 10 seconds and seeing the amount raised going up by hundreds of thousands of pounds each time.
Even though Tom has been gathered into the dark wings of Azreal, the Mohammedan angel of the sepulchre, take succour in the notion that you live in a country where the health system is funded by a centenarian walking round his garden,
Reflecting on passports, I think there could (perhaps should) be a field in the pasport biometric record, or perhaps in a visa wrt to COVID jab status.
If no field, no entry.
I wonder whether there will be implications for Shengen?
I think ideally it should happen, but in todays nationalistic age how is this going to really work? Over 65 and taken AZ, cant travel to France or Germany? Taken Sinopharm, not recognised in the US, maybe not here? And so on.
Morning all.
Quite a thought that, especially when travelling to the Chinese 'sphere of influence' such as SE Asia. At some time soon, the WHO is going to have to get sa grip on what works, what doesn't and perchance publish a list. Or something!
They all work at stopping hospitalisation which is good enough for me. Id be happy to take any of the ones approved in multiple countries. But there wont be agreement on this, the same people who are most outraged by the German and French idiocy on AZ are equally idiotic about Chinese and Russian vaccines. Even the BBC and Guardian struggle to admit that they even exist, let alone were approved before our first in the world approval. Sadly flags matter more than science here.
The reason Russian and Chinese vaccines are not trusted by - by me, anyway - is that there is zero transparency in their countries. How could I possibly have any confidence at all in their medicines regulators or any trial or testing reports coming out of there given that there is no scope for free inquiry or truth-telling?
It's about the chain of trust. In Russia and China, some of the links in the chain are pretty broken.
For Russia, for example
- I would trust the scientists to do their job - I have no trust in the honesty of the Russian government. - I have concerns about quality control in Russian industry
On the subject of voting labour, or indeed other parties can I just say as a voter one thing that grinds my gears and makes me disinclined to vote for you is the use of the word "fair". This isn't meant to be a rant or jibe so don't take it as so.
Simply when I see "fair wage" or "fair share of tax" etc...its meaningless at best and at worst makes me think its going to mean I pay a lot more tax. I am not saying you should not have policies on those things just however say what you mean....what is a fair wage for say a supermarket shelf stacker....what is fair tax 22% basic? 25% basic?
If you use the word fair what I read as a voter is "We don't want to put a figure on it so we don't scare you". That actually scares me more
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
I think Labour are where the Conservatives were c.2004 - i.e. they haven't smelled the coffee yet. This is astonishing given that, in real time, they should be where Kinnock was in 1990 or Cameron was in 2008.
Far too many in Labour think that if they just sit back and wait the demographics will do the work for them, without them needing to compromise much, in one or two general elections time.
They won't. It's a fantasy.
Tories c.2004 (IDS gone but still not ready to straighten up) or Labour 1985 - before Kinnock's Militant Speech.
I've got the Oxford Dictionary of Political Quotations, from 2005, and its entry for that speech has Neil saying 'a Labour Council' only once, which is a bit odd - his repetition of the phrase is the most famous bit.
I can't see Starmer doing the same thing which Kinnock did.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
That'll get 'em back!
We don't want em back unless they share Labour values. Anybody who has Tory values should vote Tory. I know it's not as binary as that, but just to make the point. You can focus group to the nth degree but there comes a point where you should remember the fundamentals. These are our values. Do you share them? These are our policies. Do you like them? You don't? Well don't vote for us then.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
No one can credibly argue that now either. As for my message, I wouldn't put it in a PPB. But there are certain types whose votes should not be chased and whose worldview should not be pandered to. Patriotism, yes. But some of the pernicious nonsense that gets wrongly attached to that notion, no.
How many more general election defeats would you like to suffer before you accept the need to compromise with the electorate?
Compromise is fine. So is more empathetic communication. And squeezing out the last of the "anti-west" dogma from the Corbyn time. But what's not fine is a sellout of core values. If there's a serious values gap I'd rather the party tried to move people than move towards them.
I think the problem is defining what the Core values of the Labour party now are. Starmer hasn't done that or his vision of it yet. As it's been commentated, being 'better than Corbyn' or 'better than the Tories' isn't going to cut it much longer.
The middle class types that run Labour need to understand, and reflect, the nuances of working class patriotism. There is middle ground between rootless globalist cosmopolitans and flag wankers.
Working class people are proud to be British, and English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish. They support national teams and sports people. Their hearts fill with pride at the thought of the British armed forces crushing Jerry, and the Argies, and the Sand N*****s. The older ones have a rose tinted view of Empire.
Labour need to understand that stuff, and it will be uncomfortable for many of the party, but to convey the nuance - yes the Empire was a hugely impressive construct, and made Britain wealthy but it was constructed in a different time, with different social mores, that are unacceptable today - ie slavery, colonialism, racism. They were acceptable at the time, but not anymore. There is a balance to be struck between blind patriotism and tearing down statues.
They need to come up with a convincing rebuttal to the English nationalism that has become the lifeblood of the Tories, that has fuelled Brexit and threatens the UK.
It's the nuance that is difficult to get across. Perhaps it was ever thus. The masses do like their blind patriotism.
That is a really good post.
Those in the LP whose main aim is to win elections (e.g. Blair and now Starmer) know very well that they cannot do so without the votes of a swathe of the electorate which is actually ideologically conservative. This cohort has always voted Labour (until last time) often on class war terms as "instructed" by their trade unions and their parents` voting habits.
I have just been informed that Sir Captain Tom Moore family took him on holiday to the Caribbean at Christmas. Which seemed to me a quite dangerous thing to do in a pandemic, with a vulnerable 100 year old man.
No write-off, the physicist Hans Bethe was writing research papers well into his nineties.
Sir Captain Tom Moore raised £33m for charity.
One of the most amazing things Ive seen was refreshing his website every 10 seconds and seeing the amount raised going up by hundreds of thousands of pounds each time.
Even though Tom has been gathered into the dark wings of Azreal, the Mohammedan angel of the sepulchre, take succour in the notion that you live in a country where the health system is funded by a centenarian walking round his garden,
Well, that and £130Bn+ of government provided money, through the tax system.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
No one can credibly argue that now either. As for my message, I wouldn't put it in a PPB. But there are certain types whose votes should not be chased and whose worldview should not be pandered to. Patriotism, yes. But some of the pernicious nonsense that gets wrongly attached to that notion, no.
Or to put it in a less incendiary way, one art of winning elections is to know which of your core voters you shouldn't pander to, so as to win more votes elsewhere. (See Blair, Cameron, Johnson...)
That's right. I want Labour to win the next election. Another loss would be so depressing I'd prefer not to think about it. Can we rebuild the Red Wall without losing support in metropolitan areas? Can we get the old base back without losing the new base? I really hope so but it's not just a matter of flags. Flags might even backfire. Let's not forget our egalitarian and internationalist values in chasing after Andy Capp. That's the point I'm making really.
Reflecting on passports, I think there could (perhaps should) be a field in the pasport biometric record, or perhaps in a visa wrt to COVID jab status.
If no field, no entry.
I wonder whether there will be implications for Shengen?
I think ideally it should happen, but in todays nationalistic age how is this going to really work? Over 65 and taken AZ, cant travel to France or Germany? Taken Sinopharm, not recognised in the US, maybe not here? And so on.
Morning all.
Quite a thought that, especially when travelling to the Chinese 'sphere of influence' such as SE Asia. At some time soon, the WHO is going to have to get sa grip on what works, what doesn't and perchance publish a list. Or something!
They all work at stopping hospitalisation which is good enough for me. Id be happy to take any of the ones approved in multiple countries. But there wont be agreement on this, the same people who are most outraged by the German and French idiocy on AZ are equally idiotic about Chinese and Russian vaccines. Even the BBC and Guardian struggle to admit that they even exist, let alone were approved before our first in the world approval. Sadly flags matter more than science here.
The reason Russian and Chinese vaccines are not trusted by - by me, anyway - is that there is zero transparency in their countries. How could I possibly have any confidence at all in their medicines regulators or any trial or testing reports coming out of there given that there is no scope for free inquiry or truth-telling?
It's about the chain of trust. In Russia and China, some of the links in the chain are pretty broken.
For Russia, for example
- I would trust the scientists to do their job - I have no trust in the honesty of the Russian government. - I have concerns about quality control in Russian industry
For china, even the first one may be a problem
Some Chinese scientists defied the state, publicly, on COVID. That is, they knowingly committed career suicide, to uphold their integrity.
For some to do this, argues that there are many Chinese scientists with high ethical standards.
Sadly the events of the past week seem to have revealed a very deep hostility towards the UK emanating both from the Commission, Macron and one or two others. Of course any tit for tat analysis might justify this given the past 4 years but the moral high ground has been shaken and I doubt the EU realise it. It bodes ill for relationships for the future and I cannot see how it will help citizens on either side of the channel. I would have preferred to see both sides making the best of a bad situation but the inability to be sensible in the midst of a world health crisis puts all of Europe in a bad light.
I think the last weekend will turn out to be very important in the long run for a number of reasons.
Firstly it has been hard to define exactly what is concerning about the democratic deficit at the heart of the EU. But the centralised failures for vaccine ordering, and then the attempts to both procure more of and undermine the AZ vaccine show it for what it is, an imperfect political grouping. The countries show solidarity except when the don't, particularly when they have an election next year.
Secondly all the criticism the government received for the Internal Markets bill particularly that it was a breach of trust has been totally undermined by the EU invoking article 16 without consultation. It demonstrates why the government was contemplating such legislation.
Thirdly this feeds into international relations. Other countries such as Canada are now worried that the EU will not be a reliable trade partner for vaccines just as we are expanding our capabilities. We can also show President Biden that we are not trying to undermine peace in Ireland, if is the EU. Some enlightened self interest here in offering Ireland priority vaccines as they are in the CTA would also enhance this. Whilst Irish politicians have indicated they are not interested, if an offer is actually made will they really want exclude themselves from a vaccine supply.
Finally, this is going to play out until the EU gets its vaccine programmes rolling. This looks to be at least 3 months behind the UK with problems on take up too. If so the UK could have substantially vaccinated all eligible citizens by August it may to the EU into early next year, with perhaps significant further deaths next winter.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
I suspect that the first sentence was tongue in cheek knowing @kinabalu (how old are you really kinabalu?). After all, all parties rely on a subset of people voting for them who haven't a clue what they are doing sadly.
Re the 2nd para - things have moved on since then. We are more international, more multi racial, we even joined the EU. I think it is very difficult to compare patriotism now to 50 years ago, or 100 years ago. A 100 years ago it would be supporting the Empire and keeping the fuzzy wuzzies in their place. I think you would need to go to the extremes of patriotism to find that opinion relevant today.
Good points in your 2nd para. That 'Old Labour' belonged to that Old World.
As for tongue-in-cheek. No it wasn't really. It was more a colourful way to make a serious point that I do actually feel quite strongly about. The risk to Labour of chasing the Red Wall and forgetting the modern metro left.
Me? Born in the early 60s. Find it impossible to just say my exact age under interrogation. It would feel like a defeat.
This is all very disappointing because I seem to recall reading on here that the Northern Ireland Protocol would be an obvious template for a future Scottish trading relationship.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
I suspect that the first sentence was tongue in cheek knowing @kinabalu (how old are you really kinabalu?). After all, all parties rely on a subset of people voting for them who haven't a clue what they are doing sadly.
Re the 2nd para - things have moved on since then. We are more international, more multi racial, we even joined the EU. I think it is very difficult to compare patriotism now to 50 years ago, or 100 years ago. A 100 years ago it would be supporting the Empire and keeping the fuzzy wuzzies in their place. I think you would need to go to the extremes of patriotism to find that opinion relevant today.
Good points in your 2nd para. That 'Old Labour' belonged to that Old World.
As for tongue-in-cheek. No it wasn't really. It was more a colourful way to make a serious point that I do actually feel quite strongly about. The risk to Labour of chasing the Red Wall and forgetting the modern metro left.
Me? Born in the early 60s. Find it impossible to just say my exact age under interrogation. It would feel like a defeat.
Will you at least confess to being born on 23rd April? It isn't like anyone would hold it against you.
Mr. kinabalu, who would take over from Labour in metropolitan areas, though?
If I were Labour, I'd be concerned about the North of England somewhat, and Scotland a lot.
There is some security there. And of course the Red Wall and Scotland are very important. But there are the Greens on the Left. The LDs for social liberalism and unashamed pro-Europe internationalism. Then there is the enthusiasm - turnout - factor, especially among younger voters. So there is a risk here, is what I'm saying. Nobody else seems to make the point - it's all Red Wall this and Red Wall that, drop woke, embrace patriotism, fly the flag bla bla bla - so it falls to me.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
I think Labour are where the Conservatives were c.2004 - i.e. they haven't smelled the coffee yet. This is astonishing given that, in real time, they should be where Kinnock was in 1990 or Cameron was in 2008.
Far too many in Labour think that if they just sit back and wait the demographics will do the work for them, without them needing to compromise much, in one or two general elections time.
They won't. It's a fantasy.
15 years ago a lot of pundits were saying the Tories would struggle to ever again get back into government due to changing demographics. They were right as far as London is concerned, which is probably where most of them were/are living.
The same was said of Manchester, Liverpool and Newcastle-Upon-Tyne.
The truth is that such ultra-urban city seats don't matter much anymore to the prospects of the Conservatives winning a majority - they just sweep everywhere else.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
No one can credibly argue that now either. As for my message, I wouldn't put it in a PPB. But there are certain types whose votes should not be chased and whose worldview should not be pandered to. Patriotism, yes. But some of the pernicious nonsense that gets wrongly attached to that notion, no.
How many more general election defeats would you like to suffer before you accept the need to compromise with the electorate?
Compromise is fine. So is more empathetic communication. And squeezing out the last of the "anti-west" dogma from the Corbyn time. But what's not fine is a sellout of core values. If there's a serious values gap I'd rather the party tried to move people than move towards them.
I really struggle to see how openly loving your own country is a sellout of your core values.
If one of your core values is nose-wrinkling at that (or worse) then don't expect to be elected to office.
I have just been informed that Sir Captain Tom Moore family took him on holiday to the Caribbean at Christmas. Which seemed to me a quite dangerous thing to do in a pandemic, with a vulnerable 100 year old man.
Most 100 year old men live with extreme danger every day of their lives.
Not disagreeing with that. However what about his over 60 children. It is them that I do not think did not do the right thing.They would have organised it.
Stay at home but its OK to all go abroad if you take a hero in a pandemic.
Over 60 children! Blimy: makes Boris look like a monk.
I don't really know why Gove is being particularly terse with the EU, or why he's referenced their Article 16 blunder other than to say it's illustrative of the complexities. If his end game is that he's going to act unilaterally (which I have no issue with as a last resort), better to start off amicably and be seen to be unreasonably rebuffed I would have said. Who knows what he's up to.
I have just been informed that Sir Captain Tom Moore family took him on holiday to the Caribbean at Christmas. Which seemed to me a quite dangerous thing to do in a pandemic, with a vulnerable 100 year old man.
Most 100 year old men live with extreme danger every day of their lives.
Not disagreeing with that. However what about his over 60 children. It is them that I do not think did not do the right thing.They would have organised it.
Stay at home but its OK to all go abroad if you take a hero in a pandemic.
Over 60 children! Blimy: makes Boris look like a monk.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
We will have to disagree on whether people voted to erect barriers to trade and to make themselves less free. As I say, we should not let the Tories own patriotism and decide what it means. Doing so causes immense harm and puts the very future of the country at risk.
What's Labour's version of patriotism, when it flies the EU flag? There is no alternative proposition on offer from them. What it doesn't offer is listening to the voters represented by the Unon flag and implementing their wishes. Instead, the Labour Party wrap themselves in the flag of a wannabe new nation, where we have no democratic levers against those in power. As we have just very clearly seen.
And the man most visible for recent years in bending the knee to THAT flag leads the Labour Party. He was the guy trying every trick in the book to supplant one flag for another.
You think people will just forget that?
The people who obsess about that crap are not fit to vote Labour. We have standards.
Saying that people are "not fit to vote Labour", would probably guarantee that large numbers of people who might vote Labour will not do so.
No one could have credibly argued that Labour was unpatriotic under Attlee, Gaitskell, Wilson, or Callaghan.
No one can credibly argue that now either. As for my message, I wouldn't put it in a PPB. But there are certain types whose votes should not be chased and whose worldview should not be pandered to. Patriotism, yes. But some of the pernicious nonsense that gets wrongly attached to that notion, no.
How many more general election defeats would you like to suffer before you accept the need to compromise with the electorate?
Compromise is fine. So is more empathetic communication. And squeezing out the last of the "anti-west" dogma from the Corbyn time. But what's not fine is a sellout of core values. If there's a serious values gap I'd rather the party tried to move people than move towards them.
I really struggle to see how openly loving your own country is a sellout of your core values.
If one of your core values is nose-wrinkling at that (or worse) then don't expect to be elected to office.
Patriotism has always been downplayed in this country. When Wilde declared it to be the last resort of a scoundrel he was playing to an appreciative audience. Jingoism in its day was roundly condemned for its vulgarity. We have a National Health Service, not a 'British' one. We invented postage stamps - so uniquely among nations we omit to remind the recipient who we are. We clap when Australians hit boundaries. Etc. Etc.
Morning all! Have we already talked about Labour's plans to de-twat themselves by slapping on lots of union jacks? It reads like a brilliant piece of dumb focus group research, "ex-voters actually like this country, bizarrely, so lets dress up like them to make them like us".
If Tony Blair was leader, and was convincing on that front with a front-bench of eager reformers, then yes, that's the strategy. Sadly Keir "we're here to hear" Starmer is leader, half the front bench are "who?" and the back benches are stuffed full of nutters.
I was a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. I really struggle to understand what it is about and who it thinks it is speaking to - and this dumb "stick a flag in the background" effort will convince nobody. Had Keith purged the nutters, said mea maxima culpa and spent the last year actually reforming the party in the background then maybe.
Not letting the Tories own patriotism - especially after all the harm they have done with it - is a good thing. That's where I start from on this. Beyond that, wrapping the flag around higher public spending, fair wages for essential workers, a strong NHS, a better deal for schools, a decent and dignified care system, more affordable housing, tolerance, openness and solidarity is absolutely what Labour should be doing. These are all values that most voters will identify with. The Corbyn years caused immense harm to Labour's image as a party that actually liked the country it wanted to govern. You have to start somewhere in changing that. And in terms of party control, Starmer is pretty much there. He now owns the NEC and the PLP. The nutters are leaving, as the fall in membership demonstrates. Still a long, long way to go. But progress is being made.
It's not the Tories owning patriotism that is the issue. It is Labour owning - for decades - national self-loathing. Sticking a few flags on a PPB isn't going to convince anybody that behind their hands, Labour isn't laughing at the insincerity of its own actions.
The embodiment of Labour's problem here is Emily Thornberry tweeting about the ridiculousness of draping flags over your house. Anyone want to assess her private views on this new policy. a) Yes Leader, I'm right behind you. I love a flag. I love OUR flag or b) pfffft - what bullshit?
You make my point for me. Disliking the Tory version of patriotism is not self-loathing. It is disliking the Tory version of patriotism - one that has led us to where we are today: a horribly divided country which erects barriers to trade and celebrates removing freedoms from its citizens. Patriotism doesn't have to be like that.
Gloriously showing why Labour will get stuffed next time too. The citizens voted to remove those freedoms from its citizens. It was the result of democracy.
And SKS and the Labour movement love flags, for sure. We have seen them emblazoned everywhere. They fly flags VERY proudly. Unfortunately, for the past five years, that flag has been gold stars on a blue background.
If you want to stop dividing this country, stop flying the flag of a foreign power all over your social media presence, Remainers. That is a weird type of patriotism you've got there....
It's not just the EU flag. Trade union flags, Palestine, etc. There are plenty of flags on all sides. The strange thing is that in lots of countries e.g. France there is no problem or insinuations about self gratification related to the flag, whereas in the UK it seems to be different.
Exactly my point. There are probably just as many strong supporters at a international swimming gala or the rugby match but most often images of the English flag are attached to images of snarling football fans or snarling NF members
The middle class types that run Labour need to understand, and reflect, the nuances of working class patriotism. There is middle ground between rootless globalist cosmopolitans and flag wankers.
Working class people are proud to be British, and English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish. They support national teams and sports people. Their hearts fill with pride at the thought of the British armed forces crushing Jerry, and the Argies, and the Sand N*****s. The older ones have a rose tinted view of Empire.
Labour need to understand that stuff, and it will be uncomfortable for many of the party, but to convey the nuance - yes the Empire was a hugely impressive construct, and made Britain wealthy but it was constructed in a different time, with different social mores, that are unacceptable today - ie slavery, colonialism, racism. They were acceptable at the time, but not anymore. There is a balance to be struck between blind patriotism and tearing down statues.
They need to come up with a convincing rebuttal to the English nationalism that has become the lifeblood of the Tories, that has fuelled Brexit and threatens the UK.
It's the nuance that is difficult to get across. Perhaps it was ever thus. The masses do like their blind patriotism.
That is a really good post.
Those in the LP whose main aim is to win elections (e.g. Blair and now Starmer) know very well that they cannot do so without the votes of a swathe of the electorate which is actually ideologically conservative. This cohort has always voted Labour (until last time) often on class war terms as "instructed" by their trade unions and their parents` voting habits.
There is another side to that in that most of the metropolitan upper layer of Lab are convinced that *they* are working class.
So that will be some people in big houses in London with net worth of millions.
Leaving aside that I like teasing them about it, how do the twain meet?
Is there a place for a national COVID-deaths memorial?
Thinking of eg Thiepval, National Memorial Arboretum, Vietnam Veterans Memorial etc as models.
Would give a place to focus, and also a place to mourn for individuals who's deaths we may have been forced to miss.
There was a piece in one of the newspapers the other day (Guardian?) saying if you look at history all this will quickly be forgotten and there wont be any kind of memorials unless someone puts some effort into setting up a campaign etc.
I just don't believe that.
Consider how many go to see eg WW1 graves in France.
Or if you prefer even consider the rise of peculiar "contact the dead" stuff (eg table turning) in the 1920s and 1930s when so many had lost loved ones in WW1 with no tangible record.
Or look at the interest in family history, so that people can find their place in the world.
Remembrance is important. There are also, for example, many many parish churches which run once-a-year low key services for people who have had children die in eg birth or young. They are popular.
Mr. kinabalu, who would take over from Labour in metropolitan areas, though?
If I were Labour, I'd be concerned about the North of England somewhat, and Scotland a lot.
There is some security there. And of course the Red Wall and Scotland are very important. But there are the Greens on the Left. The LDs for social liberalism and unashamed pro-Europe internationalism. Then there is the enthusiasm - turnout - factor, especially among younger voters. So there is a risk here, is what I'm saying. Nobody else seems to make the point - it's all Red Wall this and Red Wall that, drop woke, embrace patriotism, fly the flag bla bla bla - so it falls to me.
One (small) opportunity might be LD voters in Red Wall and similar, if Sir Klingon can reach them. It is possible that they have committed hari-kiri in these areas.
Round here LD councillors wiped themselves out for 10 miles+ in every direction in 2019 afaics.
Comments
Nose wrinkling at the Union Jack as a bit nationalistic, and just talking of internationalism and openness instead, leaves me stone cold.
If you want an audience on the latter you must convince everyone your heart is in the same place on the former.
My answer would have been 'No' but Trump's firing of his legal team may have changed things.
This argument taken from a Quora post makes some interesting points.
"Trump has been impeached for a 2nd time and there is a ‘trial’ in the US Senate which requires 67 votes to convict. Democrats have 50 and need 17 Republicans.
Only 4, possibly 5, GOP were committed but no worries as the rest had the ‘not constitutional to impeach someone who is no longer in office’ fig leaf to acquit. That is until Trump decided to blow it up with the ‘election was stolen’ defense which means if Republican Senators vote to acquit as Trump is asserting the certification of Biden was illegal, they in effect have negated their votes to certify and he owns them forever.
McConnell cannot let that happen as everyone has said. Trump could have ‘taken the W’ but he decided to burn the Republicans and take control of the party now and not wait to do it slowly. This is a full on assault by Trump.
Meanwhile McConnell has to prepare to fight to save himself and the ‘governing’ wing of the GOP and he chose to start with Marjorie Taylor-Greene whom Trump is backing. MTG is a QAnon and has made remarks on basically killing Pelosi among other ‘loony’ statements according to McConnell."
However what about his over 60 children.
It is them that I do not think did not do the right thing.They would have organised it.
Stay at home but its OK to all go abroad if you take a hero in a pandemic.
It has to be said that recent US data suggests the opposite, that cases are still falling away, as they are here.
GSK/Sanofi was an entirely reasonable deal, as it used the two companies existing strengths in vaccines, and was a sensible way of getting a program going quickly. Just a shame it didn't quite work.
And GSK would have been quite big enough to do a deal with imperial as well, had government backed it. I suspect they didn't at the time because it wasn't clear how quickly it could be developed.
Re the 2nd para - things have moved on since then. We are more international, more multi racial, we even joined the EU. I think it is very difficult to compare patriotism now to 50 years ago, or 100 years ago. A 100 years ago it would be supporting the Empire and keeping the fuzzy wuzzies in their place. I think you would need to go to the extremes of patriotism to find that opinion relevant today.
Is there a place for a national COVID-deaths memorial?
Thinking of eg Thiepval, National Memorial Arboretum, Vietnam Veterans Memorial etc as models.
Would give a place to focus, and also a place to mourn for individuals who's deaths we may have been forced to miss.
My position on this at the moment is that I don't have an issue with us needing to provide more information/submit to more checks as a third nation, but that we should be able to make these processes quicker, simpler and easier over time. I understood that when we left, checks on our exports would be spot checks rather than 'everything' checks, and at present I don't know whether that is happening or not.
On the face of it, the tone of Gove's letter seems too combative - unless the plan is for a spat that results in unilateral action by us.
So if you need to find one in weeks then JFDI. Troubleshoot. Find a problem, figure out a solution, even if it is temporary.
Is SPS paperwork causing an issue? If so, figure out a way to make that go away. Maybe waive it until an alternative is put in place. Maybe agree mutual recognition so that the paperwork is no longer required.
All it takes is the will to find a solution.
Good morning, everyone.
The problem is that some people hate their own country. They hate what the flag represents. They are ashamed of their own nation and loathe to see their own flag as a result.
Far too many in Labour think that if they just sit back and wait the demographics will do the work for them, without them needing to compromise much, in one or two general elections time.
They won't. It's a fantasy.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/methode/times/prod/web/bin/3a8e4506-5881-11e8-9ed6-2a2b8ba208a7.jpg?crop=2202,1239,0,115
How many Brexit supporters on the Tory backbenches will respect the quantity of fudge necessary to finesse the border issue, rather than pick away at the contradictions, the implied loss of sovereignty, etc?
I don't see the room for fudge in our increasingly binary, digital world. There is no compromise now. Everything is a stick to beat your opponent with until they are bludgeoned into submission.
https://twitter.com/Afzal4Gorton/status/1356754273455980544?s=20
When is Keir Starmer going to do something like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWLN7rIby9s
The flag as a symbol was stolen in the 70s/80s and not enough was done then to solve the damage its misappropriation then has done longer term.
If it wasn't there historically and doesn't need to be there I always have to stop and think wtf is it suddenly there?
They stated the scientific community divided over 3 month gap...ok, on Pfizer right, no, no mention of that....new paper says 3 month doesn't lower efficacy..grrrhhhh...no it finds it is optimal range...and in conclusion, this paper suggests government gamble might be right....no it says nothing about Pfizer.
i mean FFS...and this is from their supposed health correspondent.
This confusion (media favourite word) is worse than stuff like peoppe died yesterday reports.
I think the efforts are definitely still worthwhile, but it does put it in another perspective in terms of possible transmission.
I wonder how many people on here knew we were talking about people tested in December?
I’m running out of TV news sources: even C4 News is dire these days.
https://twitter.com/emmabarnett/status/1356874386880557056?s=21
https://twitter.com/kemibadenoch/status/1355130565633126401?s=21
A fudge solution shouldn't involve a "loss of sovereignty". The GFA didn't result in a "loss of sovereignty" for the UK or Eire. It works by treating all communities with respect - and yes if that results in contradictions then ignore them.
The UK or NI being forced into the EU's regime isn't fudge, it is subjugation. It is as you put it bludgeoning them into submission. The solution is mutual respect and recognition. Accept that standards may be different, but you'll recognise them anyway. Accept and mutually recognise each others SPS etc and don't require paperwork.
That is a problem for the "integrity of the Single Market" because there's no hard border then between the EU and the UK. Well tough, that's the price to pay for peace. NI then has an open border with the Republic and with GB simultaneously.
For Russia, for example
- I would trust the scientists to do their job
- I have no trust in the honesty of the Russian government.
- I have concerns about quality control in Russian industry
and thread:
https://twitter.com/HarryYorke1/status/1356911337457221633?s=20
Simply when I see "fair wage" or "fair share of tax" etc...its meaningless at best and at worst makes me think its going to mean I pay a lot more tax. I am not saying you should not have policies on those things just however say what you mean....what is a fair wage for say a supermarket shelf stacker....what is fair tax 22% basic? 25% basic?
If you use the word fair what I read as a voter is "We don't want to put a figure on it so we don't scare you". That actually scares me more
Those in the LP whose main aim is to win elections (e.g. Blair and now Starmer) know very well that they cannot do so without the votes of a swathe of the electorate which is actually ideologically conservative. This cohort has always voted Labour (until last time) often on class war terms as "instructed" by their trade unions and their parents` voting habits.
‘Och, that was most satisfactory.’
If I were Labour, I'd be concerned about the North of England somewhat, and Scotland a lot.
For some to do this, argues that there are many Chinese scientists with high ethical standards.
Firstly it has been hard to define exactly what is concerning about the democratic deficit at the heart of the EU. But the centralised failures for vaccine ordering, and then the attempts to both procure more of and undermine the AZ vaccine show it for what it is, an imperfect political grouping. The countries show solidarity except when the don't, particularly when they have an election next year.
Secondly all the criticism the government received for the Internal Markets bill particularly that it was a breach of trust has been totally undermined by the EU invoking article 16 without consultation. It demonstrates why the government was contemplating such legislation.
Thirdly this feeds into international relations. Other countries such as Canada are now worried that the EU will not be a reliable trade partner for vaccines just as we are expanding our capabilities. We can also show President Biden that we are not trying to undermine peace in Ireland, if is the EU. Some enlightened self interest here in offering Ireland priority vaccines as they are in the CTA would also enhance this. Whilst Irish politicians have indicated they are not interested, if an offer is actually made will they really want exclude themselves from a vaccine supply.
Finally, this is going to play out until the EU gets its vaccine programmes rolling. This looks to be at least 3 months behind the UK with problems on take up too. If so the UK could have substantially vaccinated all eligible citizens by August it may to the EU into early next year, with perhaps significant further deaths next winter.
As for tongue-in-cheek. No it wasn't really. It was more a colourful way to make a serious point that I do actually feel quite strongly about. The risk to Labour of chasing the Red Wall and forgetting the modern metro left.
Me? Born in the early 60s. Find it impossible to just say my exact age under interrogation. It would feel like a defeat.
The truth is that such ultra-urban city seats don't matter much anymore to the prospects of the Conservatives winning a majority - they just sweep everywhere else.
https://order-order.com/2021/02/03/exclusive-video-patriotic-starmer-boasting-he-wants-to-abolish-the-monarchy/
If one of your core values is nose-wrinkling at that (or worse) then don't expect to be elected to office.
So that will be some people in big houses in London with net worth of millions.
Leaving aside that I like teasing them about it, how do the twain meet?
Consider how many go to see eg WW1 graves in France.
Or if you prefer even consider the rise of peculiar "contact the dead" stuff (eg table turning) in the 1920s and 1930s when so many had lost loved ones in WW1 with no tangible record.
Or look at the interest in family history, so that people can find their place in the world.
Remembrance is important. There are also, for example, many many parish churches which run once-a-year low key services for people who have had children die in eg birth or young. They are popular.
Round here LD councillors wiped themselves out for 10 miles+ in every direction in 2019 afaics.