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Contagion – the 2011 Matt Damon movie that’s said to be driving Hancock’s COVID strategy – political

SystemSystem Posts: 12,168
edited February 2021 in General
imageContagion – the 2011 Matt Damon movie that’s said to be driving Hancock’s COVID strategy – politicalbetting.com

There’s a great piece in the Guardian on the influence that the 2011 Matt Damon movie, Contagion, has had on the government’s approach to COVID – a story that was first covered by SkyNews.

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    First
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    2nd like Gwyneth Paltrow
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,672
    edited February 2021
    Southampton not having a great night I see.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    One group that would be beneficial for us to have done on an ongoing basis are hauliers that drive in and out the country. Foreign cabin crew/pilots too.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    How Boris Johnson sustains his saviour of the universe by means of vaccine provision for another three years is beyond me. His biggest headache is the economic carnage heading towards us.
  • Mr 'we'll do whatever it takes to save the euro' takes over in italy?

    hmmmm...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,234
    About 8th.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    Certainly not first - just like Ursula! :(
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,672
    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, agree with that - with the proviso, which I am sure you'd accept, that anyone who cannot have the vaccine for certified medical reasons is exempt.

    If the virus continues to mutate and spread I think we are going to have to have tighter rules on what you can and cannot do if you choose not to be vaccinated. Certain occupations should require practitioners to vaccinated, travel, hotels, employers may all have to empowered to require vaccination.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Tenth. Like someone who comes in after ninth.
  • For someone who was thought to be struggling early on in the pandemic, Hancock has long seemed like he has grown into the role.

    But the farsighted focus on the vaccine from the early days - and the "brave" (and right) decision to veto Oxford partnering with Merck and insisting upon a British outfit instead of an American one Trump could put controls on - was undoubtedly a masterstroke a long time in the making.

    It isn't over until the fat lady sings, but it does feel with this vaccine like she is very much warming up her vocal chords. Fingers crossed we can put this bastard bug behind us soon.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,672
    Not sure the Saints can get back into this game tbh.
  • FPT
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    55% of Scots and a majority of Labour voters voted to stay in the UK in 2014, SLab also need Tory tactical votes to beat the SNP.

    They are never going to win back Nat, UK haters like you
    55% of Scots did NOT vote to stay in the UK. You're making it up. Changing the facts. And in any case missing the point. I am talking about the substantial minority (third) of Labour voters hwo didn't vote for the Union Flag in 2014. I've not seen any discussion of that.

    2014 result was:

    No 55%
    Yes 45%
    Of those who were (a) entitled and (b) actually voted and (c) didn't spoil the ballot. Not all Scots.
    So it is your contention that far less than 45% voted for Independence in 2014?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,477
    Every time I'm sort of coming around to there being a point to Matt Hancock, something of deep concern pops up.
  • Nein to the EU - 9 to United
  • Well there goes our Goal Difference lead over United, in just one game.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    Southampton not having a great night I see.

    I think you can say that but some very doubtful decisions by Mike Dean certainly put some icing on the cake.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,706
    Good job Hancock isn't a big fan of Outbreak then by the sounds
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,314

    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, agree with that - with the proviso, which I am sure you'd accept, that anyone who cannot have the vaccine for certified medical reasons is exempt.

    If the virus continues to mutate and spread I think we are going to have to have tighter rules on what you can and cannot do if you choose not to be vaccinated. Certain occupations should require practitioners to vaccinated, travel, hotels, employers may all have to empowered to require vaccination.
    Agreed. For instance, I am sure that if Daughter is ever allowed to reopen before she goes bust she would want her employees to be vaccinated. Indeed, it may well become a H&S requirement.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    For someone who was thought to be struggling early on in the pandemic, Hancock has long seemed like he has grown into the role.

    But the farsighted focus on the vaccine from the early days - and the "brave" (and right) decision to veto Oxford partnering with Merck and insisting upon a British outfit instead of an American one Trump could put controls on - was undoubtedly a masterstroke a long time in the making.

    It isn't over until the fat lady sings, but it does feel with this vaccine like she is very much warming up her vocal chords. Fingers crossed we can put this bastard bug behind us soon.

    Have to say the nationalistic outlook of Hancock which pushed him to pick a UK company willing to give supply guarantees is definitely something Hunt wouldn't have done as Health Secretary, I'm sure we'd have waved through the partnership with Merck and we'd have been stuffed by the Americans stealing our vaccines or laying claim to them.
  • DavidL said:

    Southampton not having a great night I see.

    I think you can say that but some very doubtful decisions by Mike Dean certainly put some icing on the cake.
    Say it isn't so.

    Next you'll be saying that Howard Webb wasn't always impartial.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    Welsh voters are getting restive too, where independence has minority support, but increasingly cross party. Not sure the Union Jack stuff will go down any better there.

    https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1356588063787466752?s=19
    If wrapping himself in the Union Flag is the best that Starmer has to offer we might as well buckle up for a long, hard clown-car ride from Johnson.

    If I was Starmer I would work on the premise that Scotland and Northern Ireland are lost. If that happens, Wales won't want to be outdone too, so sometime later off we go.

    So for starters, Starmer needs to look at how the red wall Tories, particularly in England feel aggrieved. They hate the notion that Labour are seen to be funding the idle and the feckless, and to their tax paying/ service receipt detriment. So aggressively attacking generational unemployment is a winner, to attack this I would look at a Finland style basic income experiment, but in exchange for the basic income the long term unemployed must undertake civic duties. Those functions that through local authority budget cuts no longer exist. Litter picking, social welfare and care functions. A civic national service, to drum in the work ethic could be brought in to give confidence and experience to NEETS.

    Education across the UK is a disaster, not least in Labour Wales. It needs to be funded properly, and league tables andtargets that can be achieved by smoke and mirrors removed.

    Easier said than done, NHS provision has to be tacitly rationed.

    If Starmer wants to wrap himself in the flag, industrial policy needs to focus back on self sufficiency. No local authority or public service should be driving around in vehicles that do not have a certain percentage of domestic input for example, why are most police patrol cars from Bavaria?

    Housing? Local authorities funding Rachman landlords has to stop. Like the post war, we build our way out of recession with good quality social housing. Create communities. Quality housing that if residents decide they want to abuse, they get turfed out into low quality Rachman properties.

    Racial integration should be encouraged, and xenophobia, educated out of xenophobes.

    There is no money in the pot post-Covid, so direct taxation has to rise, but it needs to be fair and equitable for everyone. The wealthy need to take some burden, but they do not need to be screwed. Inheritence tax is an issue. Hard working red wallers would prefer to leave their legacy to their children, not to fund the families of low level drug dealers and their multiple children from multiple mothers. So leave it alone! Legal taxation avoidance schemes by individuals to big business should be removed. If Amazon want to trade here, they are taxed like everyone else.

    I have been saying Starmer doesn't have to nail all his colours to the mast just yet, but so far, positive ideas are very, very thin on the ground.
    Some sensible ideas apart from your first 2 paragraphs. For starters Starmer is not going to win England if he is not seen as a patriot, all elected Labour PMs, Attlee, Wilson and Blair were proud to be seen with the Union Jack. Those seen as insufficiently patriotic like Corbyn and Foot were trounced.

    It is the height of defeatism to suggest the Union is lost and in any case in Wales the reverse is the case, the fastest growing momentum is to abolish the Senedd completely, not for independence on the latest polling.
    You no longer live in Wales. I can assure you that people I know who have always supported the Union, are more conflicted than we have ever been. I can stand myself with that group. If Scotland leave, the lock gate is breached. Welsh people will not want to be seen as English serfs.

    As for the Union flag, it has been hijacked from a symbol of unity to one of xenophobia. Starmer can by all means demonstrate his patriotism. A Union Jack waistcoat butters no parsnips!

    When I was much younger, I harbourered political aspirations, now all evaporated, and long ago. I used to drive an Alfa Romeo GTV6. I changed it for a white Ford Capri (made in Cologne, but politically British) I had a little Union Flag on the right hand side under the rear bumper. It was statement that I was a patriot. I was a patriot then and I remain a patriot. The little Union Flag on the German Ford was bollocks them, and it would be bollocks now.
    The union jack is now a symbol of xenophobia?
    Yep, and ghastly taste as well.


    But my Union Jack underwear is still cool?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,672

    How Boris Johnson sustains his saviour of the universe by means of vaccine provision for another three years is beyond me. His biggest headache is the economic carnage heading towards us.

    It would require the virus to be regularly mutating so that a nimble and rapid vaccination and re-vaccination programme is essential to avoid perma-lockdown.

    All of which might just transpire. 😬
  • For someone who was thought to be struggling early on in the pandemic, Hancock has long seemed like he has grown into the role.

    But the farsighted focus on the vaccine from the early days - and the "brave" (and right) decision to veto Oxford partnering with Merck and insisting upon a British outfit instead of an American one Trump could put controls on - was undoubtedly a masterstroke a long time in the making.

    It isn't over until the fat lady sings, but it does feel with this vaccine like she is very much warming up her vocal chords. Fingers crossed we can put this bastard bug behind us soon.

    Is there a wider significance to the Merck veto? Perhaps a realisation by HMG that a full trade deal would be very much on America's terms and a damn sight worse than what we'd just Brexited.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Boris idolises Churchill. Once the crisis is over, perhaps he will follow his example.
  • :lol:

    Top trolling from BBC News at 10.

    Straight from long piece by Fergus Walsh on how effective the AZ/Oxford vaccine is... to an update on how the French refuse to use it for anyone over 65.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,672
    edited February 2021
    Eight players on the scoresheet has to be some kind of record, shirley?

    Ok - one was an own goal. Bednarek will want to forget this one - og and red card, eh?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    edited February 2021
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, agree with that - with the proviso, which I am sure you'd accept, that anyone who cannot have the vaccine for certified medical reasons is exempt.

    If the virus continues to mutate and spread I think we are going to have to have tighter rules on what you can and cannot do if you choose not to be vaccinated. Certain occupations should require practitioners to vaccinated, travel, hotels, employers may all have to empowered to require vaccination.
    Agreed. For instance, I am sure that if Daughter is ever allowed to reopen before she goes bust she would want her employees to be vaccinated. Indeed, it may well become a H&S requirement.
    As a counter point, I suspect it won't happen universally because of human nature:

    1) There will be a minority of employers who are anti-vaxxers in the UK. Similarly, there will be lots of employers who aren't especially bothered about checking. There would also be general apathy from lots of the public.

    2) After a short while (I suspect more than a year but less than two) no-one in the developed world will pay a blind bit of notice to covid regulations because we'll be substantially back to normal.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    How Boris Johnson sustains his saviour of the universe by means of vaccine provision for another three years is beyond me. His biggest headache is the economic carnage heading towards us.

    Yep. The leap to "gives the Tories another election victory" is somewhat of a stretch.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710

    Well there goes our Goal Difference lead over United, in just one game.

    Equalled our barnstorming rout of the Saints 18 months ago. It took them a while to recover.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Sorry to divert to Scotland, but remember that argument from last night, where it was claimed Scottish schools were pumping out Nationalist indoctrination, up to the point where they put the SNP logo on history literature for Scottish primary schoolkids?

    Many of us (me included) thought it was so ridiculous it was probably a hoax. Scotland is not North Korea, etc. And yet I did notice none of the PB Nats actually denied it, which was curious.

    Turns out: it's true

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/schools-family/1941916/school-lessons-featuring-snp-logo-and-independence-campaign-politically-biased/

    The propaganda has now been withdrawn, with this excuse from the Office of Josef Goebbels, sorry, the makers:

    "However, we recognise that including the SNP logo in this resource and not including the political party of Donald Dewar was not consistent and so we have now amended this.”
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    edited February 2021

    :lol:

    Top trolling from BBC News at 10.

    Straight from long piece by Fergus Walsh on how effective the AZ/Oxford vaccine is... to an update on how the French refuse to use it for anyone over 65.

    The graphs and tables in the paper look extremely convincing. Very impressive overall. Also good to see that there are 17.3% of the study over 55.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    kle4 said:






    LOL! Whatever happened to Mike Reid ? :D
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,932

    :lol:

    Top trolling from BBC News at 10.

    Straight from long piece by Fergus Walsh on how effective the AZ/Oxford vaccine is... to an update on how the French refuse to use it for anyone over 65.

    Cant be long before they reverse that decision.
  • RobD said:

    :lol:

    Top trolling from BBC News at 10.

    Straight from long piece by Fergus Walsh on how effective the AZ/Oxford vaccine is... to an update on how the French refuse to use it for anyone over 65.

    Cant be long before they reverse that decision.
    Admitting that they were wrong is... not a French strength, I'd say?

    --AS
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,932
    Leon said:

    Sorry to divert to Scotland, but remember that argument from last night, where it was claimed Scottish schools were pumping out Nationalist indoctrination, up to the point where they put the SNP logo on history literature for Scottish primary schoolkids?

    Many of us (me included) thought it was so ridiculous it was probably a hoax. Scotland is not North Korea, etc. And yet I did notice none of the PB Nats actually denied it, which was curious.

    Turns out: it's true

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/schools-family/1941916/school-lessons-featuring-snp-logo-and-independence-campaign-politically-biased/

    The propaganda has now been withdrawn, with this excuse from the Office of Josef Goebbels, sorry, the makers:

    "However, we recognise that including the SNP logo in this resource and not including the political party of Donald Dewar was not consistent and so we have now amended this.”

    Good lord, lol.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    Good job Hancock isn't a big fan of Outbreak then by the sounds

    People, under no circumstances show that man The Walking Dead.....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,932

    RobD said:

    :lol:

    Top trolling from BBC News at 10.

    Straight from long piece by Fergus Walsh on how effective the AZ/Oxford vaccine is... to an update on how the French refuse to use it for anyone over 65.

    Cant be long before they reverse that decision.
    Admitting that they were wrong is... not a French strength, I'd say?

    --AS
    They'd be utterly insane not to use a highly-effective vaccine on the most at risk groups.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, for sure. Airlines will demand it, for a start. Who wants to share the stifling air of a plane with someone who has refused to take the jab?

    You will not be able to fly without a vaccine passport. Airlines that guarantee this ("we demand vaccine passports! You are safer with us!") will have a HUGE advantage over those that don't. Ergo, it will happen.
  • Eight players on the scoresheet has to be some kind of record, shirley?

    Ok - one was an own goal. Bednarek will want to forget this one og and red card, eh?

    Bednarek scored -7 in the Premier League Fantasy Football.
    I hope nobody had him as their captain.
    I had the good sense to bench him this week.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    I see Mike Penalty Dean has extended his already impressive lead at the top of the Premier League all time Man of the Match rankings. Best signing Ferguson ever made.

    Bastard even managed to send off another two Arsenal players without even being in present at the match.
  • Good job Hancock isn't a big fan of Outbreak then by the sounds

    Or 'Survivors'
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,932
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, for sure. Airlines will demand it, for a start. Who wants to share the stifling air of a plane with someone who has refused to take the jab?

    You will not be able to fly without a vaccine passport. Airlines that guarantee this ("we demand vaccine passports! You are safer with us!") will have a HUGE advantage over those that don't. Ergo, it will happen.
    Pfizer gets you into First, AZN into business, and Sputnik into cattle class?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,672
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, agree with that - with the proviso, which I am sure you'd accept, that anyone who cannot have the vaccine for certified medical reasons is exempt.

    If the virus continues to mutate and spread I think we are going to have to have tighter rules on what you can and cannot do if you choose not to be vaccinated. Certain occupations should require practitioners to vaccinated, travel, hotels, employers may all have to empowered to require vaccination.
    Agreed. For instance, I am sure that if Daughter is ever allowed to reopen before she goes bust she would want her employees to be vaccinated. Indeed, it may well become a H&S requirement.
    Yes that's probably a good route. Ditto a requirement for travel insurance (including the 'free' insurance banks offer wrapped up in 'reward' accounts). That will get the numbers up.
  • MattW said:

    About 8th.

    Is that an '8' like the German media use the number '8'?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,234
    edited February 2021
    GIN1138 said:

    Certainly not first - just like Ursula! :(

    Can we not name a constellation after Ursula.

    Say a set of stars that has collapsed.

    Is it not the case that Ursula Minima is still available?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Sorry to divert to Scotland, but remember that argument from last night, where it was claimed Scottish schools were pumping out Nationalist indoctrination, up to the point where they put the SNP logo on history literature for Scottish primary schoolkids?

    Many of us (me included) thought it was so ridiculous it was probably a hoax. Scotland is not North Korea, etc. And yet I did notice none of the PB Nats actually denied it, which was curious.

    Turns out: it's true

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/schools-family/1941916/school-lessons-featuring-snp-logo-and-independence-campaign-politically-biased/

    The propaganda has now been withdrawn, with this excuse from the Office of Josef Goebbels, sorry, the makers:

    "However, we recognise that including the SNP logo in this resource and not including the political party of Donald Dewar was not consistent and so we have now amended this.”

    Good lord, lol.
    It is stupefying, is it not? Primary schoolchildren. And they thought this was OK. It went under the radar. Scotland is DISEASED by Nationalism
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,234

    MattW said:

    About 8th.

    Is that an '8' like the German media use the number '8'?
    Engineering approximation.

    Ish.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, for sure. Airlines will demand it, for a start. Who wants to share the stifling air of a plane with someone who has refused to take the jab?

    You will not be able to fly without a vaccine passport. Airlines that guarantee this ("we demand vaccine passports! You are safer with us!") will have a HUGE advantage over those that don't. Ergo, it will happen.
    Given the popularity of budget airlines, even during a pandemic, I'm going to disagree.

    I actively avoid Ryanair because I find their general approach to customer service unattractive. I am a rarity amongst my mates.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,587
    edited February 2021
    FPT:
    Selebian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone over 70 who hasn't had a jab yet can now arrange one. You don't have to wait for a letter.

    Can you give more info? Can’t see anything on the nhs website for instance. Mother in law is over 70 and not called yet.
    https://twitter.com/going4golds/status/1356243874835001345
    Thing I can't understand: we spend ages telling our elderly parents (at least, I do) not to click on random links to random websites, but to check it's actually legitimate, e.g. in this case an nhs.uk address. The above does take you through to an nhs.uk website, but the clickable link, labelled mygp.me? Any shyster could have set that up. We know there are Covid vaccination scams doing the rounds. What's wrong with jab.nhs.uk or similar if you want a short, snappy link?
    Sorry if you don't like the links but I just happened to notice it on Peter Gold's Twitter page so I thought it would be useful to post it on here. He's leader of the opposition on Tower Hamlets council and councillor for the area next to Canary Wharf, Island Gardens.

    https://democracy.towerhamlets.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=604
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    edited February 2021
    GIN1138 said:

    kle4 said:




    LOL! Whatever happened to Mike Reid ? :D

    ++++++++

    He established and still part-owns an EXTREMELY successful media conglomerate. £££££££. So, he's done OK
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    edited February 2021
    Leon said:




    He established and still part-owns an EXTREMELY successful media conglomerate. £££££££. So, he's done OK

    Really? Wonder how Simon Bates and DLT have done?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    For someone who was thought to be struggling early on in the pandemic, Hancock has long seemed like he has grown into the role.

    But the farsighted focus on the vaccine from the early days - and the "brave" (and right) decision to veto Oxford partnering with Merck and insisting upon a British outfit instead of an American one Trump could put controls on - was undoubtedly a masterstroke a long time in the making.

    It isn't over until the fat lady sings, but it does feel with this vaccine like she is very much warming up her vocal chords. Fingers crossed we can put this bastard bug behind us soon.

    Is there a wider significance to the Merck veto? Perhaps a realisation by HMG that a full trade deal would be very much on America's terms and a damn sight worse than what we'd just Brexited.
    The Government continues to make positive noises about a US trade deal, but one has to wonder whether, if they can gain membership of the Pacific trade bloc (as was discussed here last night,) then they might just sit there and keep their fingers crossed that Biden decides to follow suit?

    Obtaining trade deal lite by the back door might end up suiting the Government much better than years of tortuous negotiations (infinitely complicated by all kinds of special interest pleading in Congress) to try to seal a full-fat bilateral accord?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    edited February 2021

    How Boris Johnson sustains his saviour of the universe by means of vaccine provision for another three years is beyond me. His biggest headache is the economic carnage heading towards us.

    It would require the virus to be regularly mutating so that a nimble and rapid vaccination and re-vaccination programme is essential to avoid perma-lockdown.

    All of which might just transpire. 😬
    Now, if that were to occur, the media would be crucifying Johnson for providing us with duff vaccines.

    For the moment he is entitled to his adulation, if only, as he is the incumbent. We are also entitled to an explanation of the 100,000 fatalities on his watch, if only, as he is the incumbent.

    I genuinely don't see how he blags his way out of the economic situation once the "spaffing" of public money on income protection schemes stops. He has lady luck on his side, so maybe everything, across the world, will be fine, and we carry on with business as normal...but how? Paying last July and January's self assessment bill last week was an unpleasant experience in itself.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    edited February 2021
    Also of interest, the 55+ immune response looks good except in the UK study, in the Brazil and SA trial it was as good as younger cohorts. Even in the UK study it still looks reasonably good, but in the other two it looks excellent.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    For someone who was thought to be struggling early on in the pandemic, Hancock has long seemed like he has grown into the role.

    But the farsighted focus on the vaccine from the early days - and the "brave" (and right) decision to veto Oxford partnering with Merck and insisting upon a British outfit instead of an American one Trump could put controls on - was undoubtedly a masterstroke a long time in the making.

    It isn't over until the fat lady sings, but it does feel with this vaccine like she is very much warming up her vocal chords. Fingers crossed we can put this bastard bug behind us soon.

    Is there a wider significance to the Merck veto? Perhaps a realisation by HMG that a full trade deal would be very much on America's terms and a damn sight worse than what we'd just Brexited.
    The Government continues to make positive noises about a US trade deal, but one has to wonder whether, if they can gain membership of the Pacific trade bloc (as was discussed here last night,) then they might just sit there and keep their fingers crossed that Biden decides to follow suit?

    Obtaining trade deal lite by the back door might end up suiting the Government much better than years of tortuous negotiations (infinitely complicated by all kinds of special interest pleading in Congress) to try to seal a full-fat bilateral accord?
    I couldn't agree more.

    I don't see any bilateral US-UK trade deal. It isn't really in our interest.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    edited February 2021
    GIN1138 said:

    kle4 said:




    So many former hosts of Saturday Superstore decended into right wing conspiratorial theories. As I recall David Icke was Reid's co-host.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,996
    edited February 2021
    Leon said:

    GIN1138 said:

    kle4 said:




    LOL! Whatever happened to Mike Reid ? :D
    ++++++++

    He established and still part-owns an EXTREMELY successful media conglomerate. £££££££. So, he's done OK

    And a creative genius to boot.

    https://youtu.be/lYOBZ3Seeio
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, for sure. Airlines will demand it, for a start. Who wants to share the stifling air of a plane with someone who has refused to take the jab?

    You will not be able to fly without a vaccine passport. Airlines that guarantee this ("we demand vaccine passports! You are safer with us!") will have a HUGE advantage over those that don't. Ergo, it will happen.
    Given the popularity of budget airlines, even during a pandemic, I'm going to disagree.

    I actively avoid Ryanair because I find their general approach to customer service unattractive. I am a rarity amongst my mates.
    You are a rarity. I would happily pay a premium to know that my plane will carry no anti-vaxxers. Planes are established vectors. Recycled air? For hours and hours? Who on earth is so keen to get to Malaga or Dubai or Bangkok they will accept the risk of death or horrible disease - or giving that disease to loved ones - just to save £50, or even £500?

    Very very few. A proof of vaccination will be required to fly, in the end, by virtually all airlines, I suspect. The few airlines that don't will be *brave* and probably go under because they will be known as the Plague Airlines where you can still get the bug.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    GIN1138 said:

    kle4 said:




    LOL! Whatever happened to Mike Reid ? :D

    He will sing you a calypso, if you ask him necely.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, agree with that - with the proviso, which I am sure you'd accept, that anyone who cannot have the vaccine for certified medical reasons is exempt.

    If the virus continues to mutate and spread I think we are going to have to have tighter rules on what you can and cannot do if you choose not to be vaccinated. Certain occupations should require practitioners to vaccinated, travel, hotels, employers may all have to empowered to require vaccination.
    Agreed. For instance, I am sure that if Daughter is ever allowed to reopen before she goes bust she would want her employees to be vaccinated. Indeed, it may well become a H&S requirement.
    Our workplace has already hinted that all staff must be vaccinated by September, I do wonder what might happen to those who choose not to.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,932
    So simple even Macron could understand it.

    Maybe.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,587
    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    I've changed my mind on this. Used to be more sceptical but with the success of the vaccination scheme it seems like the right thing to do.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,477
    Mortimer said:

    For someone who was thought to be struggling early on in the pandemic, Hancock has long seemed like he has grown into the role.

    But the farsighted focus on the vaccine from the early days - and the "brave" (and right) decision to veto Oxford partnering with Merck and insisting upon a British outfit instead of an American one Trump could put controls on - was undoubtedly a masterstroke a long time in the making.

    It isn't over until the fat lady sings, but it does feel with this vaccine like she is very much warming up her vocal chords. Fingers crossed we can put this bastard bug behind us soon.

    Is there a wider significance to the Merck veto? Perhaps a realisation by HMG that a full trade deal would be very much on America's terms and a damn sight worse than what we'd just Brexited.
    The Government continues to make positive noises about a US trade deal, but one has to wonder whether, if they can gain membership of the Pacific trade bloc (as was discussed here last night,) then they might just sit there and keep their fingers crossed that Biden decides to follow suit?

    Obtaining trade deal lite by the back door might end up suiting the Government much better than years of tortuous negotiations (infinitely complicated by all kinds of special interest pleading in Congress) to try to seal a full-fat bilateral accord?
    I couldn't agree more.

    I don't see any bilateral US-UK trade deal. It isn't really in our interest.
    +100

    Also, 22 nasty bits of the original CPTPP (or whatever it is) deal that were America's priorities, the rest of the group dropped when America decided to not to join. So the ideal situation is that the die is now cast, and America can take or leave membership (without putting its crap bits back on the table).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, agree with that - with the proviso, which I am sure you'd accept, that anyone who cannot have the vaccine for certified medical reasons is exempt.

    If the virus continues to mutate and spread I think we are going to have to have tighter rules on what you can and cannot do if you choose not to be vaccinated. Certain occupations should require practitioners to vaccinated, travel, hotels, employers may all have to empowered to require vaccination.
    Agreed. For instance, I am sure that if Daughter is ever allowed to reopen before she goes bust she would want her employees to be vaccinated. Indeed, it may well become a H&S requirement.
    Our workplace has already hinted that all staff must be vaccinated by September, I do wonder what might happen to those who choose not to.
    Let 'em die. Fuck this. Enough. Take the jab or go live in a hermit's cave


    That's the choice
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    RobD said:

    So simple even Macron could understand it.

    Maybe.
    He didn't misunderstand anything. The coordination of his sort of comment indicates calculating strategy.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, for sure. Airlines will demand it, for a start. Who wants to share the stifling air of a plane with someone who has refused to take the jab?

    You will not be able to fly without a vaccine passport. Airlines that guarantee this ("we demand vaccine passports! You are safer with us!") will have a HUGE advantage over those that don't. Ergo, it will happen.
    Given the popularity of budget airlines, even during a pandemic, I'm going to disagree.

    I actively avoid Ryanair because I find their general approach to customer service unattractive. I am a rarity amongst my mates.
    You are a rarity. I would happily pay a premium to know that my plane will carry no anti-vaxxers. Planes are established vectors. Recycled air? For hours and hours? Who on earth is so keen to get to Malaga or Dubai or Bangkok they will accept the risk of death or horrible disease - or giving that disease to loved ones - just to save £50, or even £500?

    Very very few. A proof of vaccination will be required to fly, in the end, by virtually all airlines, I suspect. The few airlines that don't will be *brave* and probably go under because they will be known as the Plague Airlines where you can still get the bug.
    I fear your approach to risk is based on contemporary cognitive bias - i.e. we're in the midst of a pandemic. Once you're vaccinated, and the vast majority of the public in the developed world are, views will change rapidly.

    People still have unprotected sex, despite the risks of horrific disease.

    I bet travel writers, such as SeanT formerly of this parish, wouldn't be put off by what will be a decreasingly small risk of illness from travel on public transport.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    For someone who was thought to be struggling early on in the pandemic, Hancock has long seemed like he has grown into the role.

    But the farsighted focus on the vaccine from the early days - and the "brave" (and right) decision to veto Oxford partnering with Merck and insisting upon a British outfit instead of an American one Trump could put controls on - was undoubtedly a masterstroke a long time in the making.

    It isn't over until the fat lady sings, but it does feel with this vaccine like she is very much warming up her vocal chords. Fingers crossed we can put this bastard bug behind us soon.

    Is there a wider significance to the Merck veto? Perhaps a realisation by HMG that a full trade deal would be very much on America's terms and a damn sight worse than what we'd just Brexited.
    The Government continues to make positive noises about a US trade deal, but one has to wonder whether, if they can gain membership of the Pacific trade bloc (as was discussed here last night,) then they might just sit there and keep their fingers crossed that Biden decides to follow suit?

    Obtaining trade deal lite by the back door might end up suiting the Government much better than years of tortuous negotiations (infinitely complicated by all kinds of special interest pleading in Congress) to try to seal a full-fat bilateral accord?
    This is almost certainly government strategy. It can then get a trade deal with the US and not have to deal with chlorinated chicken etc...
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    edited February 2021
    Don’t Soton have form on these 9-0 shellackings? Didn’t Leicester beat them nine-nothing earlier this season or last season?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    MaxPB said:

    Also of interest, the 55+ immune response looks good except in the UK study, in the Brazil and SA trial it was as good as younger cohorts. Even in the UK study it still looks reasonably good, but in the other two it looks excellent.

    I think Brazil and SA studies had a 4 or 6 week gap between doses, the UK arm 12. There were a number of other differences, but that was the main one.
  • MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, agree with that - with the proviso, which I am sure you'd accept, that anyone who cannot have the vaccine for certified medical reasons is exempt.

    If the virus continues to mutate and spread I think we are going to have to have tighter rules on what you can and cannot do if you choose not to be vaccinated. Certain occupations should require practitioners to vaccinated, travel, hotels, employers may all have to empowered to require vaccination.
    Agreed. For instance, I am sure that if Daughter is ever allowed to reopen before she goes bust she would want her employees to be vaccinated. Indeed, it may well become a H&S requirement.
    Our workplace has already hinted that all staff must be vaccinated by September, I do wonder what might happen to those who choose not to.
    For employees - no sick pay.

    For patients - charged cost of care.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, for sure. Airlines will demand it, for a start. Who wants to share the stifling air of a plane with someone who has refused to take the jab?

    You will not be able to fly without a vaccine passport. Airlines that guarantee this ("we demand vaccine passports! You are safer with us!") will have a HUGE advantage over those that don't. Ergo, it will happen.
    Given the popularity of budget airlines, even during a pandemic, I'm going to disagree.

    I actively avoid Ryanair because I find their general approach to customer service unattractive. I am a rarity amongst my mates.
    You are a rarity. I would happily pay a premium to know that my plane will carry no anti-vaxxers. Planes are established vectors. Recycled air? For hours and hours? Who on earth is so keen to get to Malaga or Dubai or Bangkok they will accept the risk of death or horrible disease - or giving that disease to loved ones - just to save £50, or even £500?

    Very very few. A proof of vaccination will be required to fly, in the end, by virtually all airlines, I suspect. The few airlines that don't will be *brave* and probably go under because they will be known as the Plague Airlines where you can still get the bug.
    I fear your approach to risk is based on contemporary cognitive bias - i.e. we're in the midst of a pandemic. Once you're vaccinated, and the vast majority of the public in the developed world are, views will change rapidly.

    People still have unprotected sex, despite the risks of horrific disease.

    I bet travel writers, such as SeanT formerly of this parish, wouldn't be put off by what will be a decreasingly small risk of illness from travel on public transport.
    I am clearly not SeanT, but the noises I hear from friends in the travel industry say the opposite: that vaccine passports are the only way out of this crisis, for an industry on the brink of collapse

    They will give real reassurance, they are possibly the only way you will get the masses back into planes. Remember, most people exaggerate threats, not the opposite. Sure, the super rich, super smart or super young will either disregard risk, or cleverly avoid it, but they are not the majority, by any means. Look at the massive support for total lockdown.

    Vax visas are coming, in some form
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,234
    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Sorry to divert to Scotland, but remember that argument from last night, where it was claimed Scottish schools were pumping out Nationalist indoctrination, up to the point where they put the SNP logo on history literature for Scottish primary schoolkids?

    Many of us (me included) thought it was so ridiculous it was probably a hoax. Scotland is not North Korea, etc. And yet I did notice none of the PB Nats actually denied it, which was curious.

    Turns out: it's true

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/schools-family/1941916/school-lessons-featuring-snp-logo-and-independence-campaign-politically-biased/

    The propaganda has now been withdrawn, with this excuse from the Office of Josef Goebbels, sorry, the makers:

    "However, we recognise that including the SNP logo in this resource and not including the political party of Donald Dewar was not consistent and so we have now amended this.”

    Good lord, lol.
    It is stupefying, is it not? Primary schoolchildren. And they thought this was OK. It went under the radar. Scotland is DISEASED by Nationalism
    One interesting thing is that the publisher is based in Sheffield, and there's quite a little empire.

    https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/search?q=twinkl
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    edited February 2021

    Leon said:

    GIN1138 said:

    kle4 said:




    LOL! Whatever happened to Mike Reid ? :D
    ++++++++

    He established and still part-owns an EXTREMELY successful media conglomerate. £££££££. So, he's done OK
    And a creative genius to boot.

    https://youtu.be/lYOBZ3Seeio


    Mike Reid has lived on, way after his broadcasting career bombed...as Smashy and/or Nicey. Indeed isn't that Smashy and Nicey in the above Union Flag picture?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, for sure. Airlines will demand it, for a start. Who wants to share the stifling air of a plane with someone who has refused to take the jab?

    You will not be able to fly without a vaccine passport. Airlines that guarantee this ("we demand vaccine passports! You are safer with us!") will have a HUGE advantage over those that don't. Ergo, it will happen.
    Given the popularity of budget airlines, even during a pandemic, I'm going to disagree.

    I actively avoid Ryanair because I find their general approach to customer service unattractive. I am a rarity amongst my mates.
    You are a rarity. I would happily pay a premium to know that my plane will carry no anti-vaxxers. Planes are established vectors. Recycled air? For hours and hours? Who on earth is so keen to get to Malaga or Dubai or Bangkok they will accept the risk of death or horrible disease - or giving that disease to loved ones - just to save £50, or even £500?

    Very very few. A proof of vaccination will be required to fly, in the end, by virtually all airlines, I suspect. The few airlines that don't will be *brave* and probably go under because they will be known as the Plague Airlines where you can still get the bug.
    I fear your approach to risk is based on contemporary cognitive bias - i.e. we're in the midst of a pandemic. Once you're vaccinated, and the vast majority of the public in the developed world are, views will change rapidly.

    People still have unprotected sex, despite the risks of horrific disease.

    I bet travel writers, such as SeanT formerly of this parish, wouldn't be put off by what will be a decreasingly small risk of illness from travel on public transport.
    I am clearly not SeanT, but the noises I hear from friends in the travel industry say the opposite: that vaccine passports are the only way out of this crisis, for an industry on the brink of collapse

    They will give real reassurance, they are possibly the only way you will get the masses back into planes.

    ***Remember, most people exaggerate threats, not the opposite***


    Sure, the super rich, super smart or super young will either disregard risk, or cleverly avoid it, but they are not the majority, by any means. Look at the massive support for total lockdown.

    Vax visas are coming, in some form
    An expert speaks! 😀
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also of interest, the 55+ immune response looks good except in the UK study, in the Brazil and SA trial it was as good as younger cohorts. Even in the UK study it still looks reasonably good, but in the other two it looks excellent.

    I think Brazil and SA studies had a 4 or 6 week gap between doses, the UK arm 12. There were a number of other differences, but that was the main one.
    It doesn't look like any of the over 55 cohort were in the 12 week spacing part of the study just under 6 weeks and 6-8 weeks.

    This whole trial really does seem to have buggered up the over 55s part, but the immune responses do look good.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,922
    edited February 2021

    GIN1138 said:

    kle4 said:




    LOL! Whatever happened to Mike Reid ? :D
    He will sing you a calypso, if you ask him necely.
    Six foot one
    Bags of fun
    Breakfast show on Radio One
    Has anybody seen Mike Read?

    He's 73. Tempus fugit.

    (Mike Reid with an i rather than an a was the comedian who played Frank Butcher in Eastenders. He died more than ten years ago.)
  • People who know what they're talking about: is the dip around 6/7 weeks something that can plausibly happen, or is it more likely random noise and an indication that the confidence interval is still awfully big?

    (If I were a Euro-drug regulator, which I'm obviously not, I'd be taking this and saying "had we had this last week, we could have all saved ourselves a lot of trouble". And then use my country's share of the 40 million doses to jab my country's share of 40 million people once instead of twice in quick succession.)
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    GIN1138 said:

    kle4 said:




    LOL! Whatever happened to Mike Reid ? :D
    He will sing you a calypso, if you ask him necely.

    Any news on David ‘Kid’ Jensen?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also of interest, the 55+ immune response looks good except in the UK study, in the Brazil and SA trial it was as good as younger cohorts. Even in the UK study it still looks reasonably good, but in the other two it looks excellent.

    I think Brazil and SA studies had a 4 or 6 week gap between doses, the UK arm 12. There were a number of other differences, but that was the main one.
    It doesn't look like any of the over 55 cohort were in the 12 week spacing part of the study just under 6 weeks and 6-8 weeks.

    This whole trial really does seem to have buggered up the over 55s part, but the immune responses do look good.
    Well, we are about to get the result of a 10 million strong randomised trial of AZ and Pfizer on an advanced nation of nearly 70 million, so, brace.

    Data Incoming.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,207
    As a reminder, the Italians got rid of the "bonus" seats for coming first in the election. It is therefore very close to being perfectly proportional.

    And Lega Nord + FdI is about 40%, and M5S + PD is about 40%. And then you have the communists, the greens, and the remnants of FI.

    Basically, it's a f*cking mess, and nobody will have enough support to actually do anything because every party is protecting some vested interests.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,314
    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, for sure. Airlines will demand it, for a start. Who wants to share the stifling air of a plane with someone who has refused to take the jab?

    You will not be able to fly without a vaccine passport. Airlines that guarantee this ("we demand vaccine passports! You are safer with us!") will have a HUGE advantage over those that don't. Ergo, it will happen.
    Given the popularity of budget airlines, even during a pandemic, I'm going to disagree.

    I actively avoid Ryanair because I find their general approach to customer service unattractive. I am a rarity amongst my mates.
    You are a rarity. I would happily pay a premium to know that my plane will carry no anti-vaxxers. Planes are established vectors. Recycled air? For hours and hours? Who on earth is so keen to get to Malaga or Dubai or Bangkok they will accept the risk of death or horrible disease - or giving that disease to loved ones - just to save £50, or even £500?

    Very very few. A proof of vaccination will be required to fly, in the end, by virtually all airlines, I suspect. The few airlines that don't will be *brave* and probably go under because they will be known as the Plague Airlines where you can still get the bug.
    I fear your approach to risk is based on contemporary cognitive bias - i.e. we're in the midst of a pandemic. Once you're vaccinated, and the vast majority of the public in the developed world are, views will change rapidly.

    People still have unprotected sex, despite the risks of horrific disease.

    I bet travel writers, such as SeanT formerly of this parish, wouldn't be put off by what will be a decreasingly small risk of illness from travel on public transport.
    Unprotected sex only causes problems for the people involved. Being a Covid carrier harms lots of people. That's the difference.

    You can take risks for yourself. Taking risks where the risks are borne by others is a very different matter. Society is allowed to say that, if you do, there are limits on what you can and cannot do. Specifically, a country should be allowed to say that vaccination is a condition of entry. Having a communicable disease has long been a bar for entry (see the US and Canada and TB) so this is not some new development.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,996
    edited February 2021
    Fuck, I hadn’t realised it was Dershowitz who nominated Kushner for the Nobel (or known that’s how it works).

    https://twitter.com/jjz1600/status/1356689851668713473?s=21
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,672
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also of interest, the 55+ immune response looks good except in the UK study, in the Brazil and SA trial it was as good as younger cohorts. Even in the UK study it still looks reasonably good, but in the other two it looks excellent.

    I think Brazil and SA studies had a 4 or 6 week gap between doses, the UK arm 12. There were a number of other differences, but that was the main one.
    It doesn't look like any of the over 55 cohort were in the 12 week spacing part of the study just under 6 weeks and 6-8 weeks.

    This whole trial really does seem to have buggered up the over 55s part, but the immune responses do look good.
    There are a number of large scale AZ trials going on at the moment, focused on the over 55s. I think the UK one must have at least 3 or 4 million participants by now... results on the efficacy of one dose should begin to emerge in the next few weeks; efficacy of two doses 12 weeks later. 🤞
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,104
    edited February 2021
    Draghi, the ultimate technocrat v Salvini, the ultimate populist
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380

    GIN1138 said:

    kle4 said:




    LOL! Whatever happened to Mike Reid ? :D
    He will sing you a calypso, if you ask him necely.
    Any news on David ‘Kid’ Jensen?

    I believe he is enduring Parkinson's but battling on. A better quality of Radio 1 legend than Reid.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,104
    Kudos to Hancock who clearly got us ahead of the field on vaccines, whatever earlier mistakes the government made on delaying lockdown and the stoppage of flights they have been ahead of the game on vaccination
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also of interest, the 55+ immune response looks good except in the UK study, in the Brazil and SA trial it was as good as younger cohorts. Even in the UK study it still looks reasonably good, but in the other two it looks excellent.

    I think Brazil and SA studies had a 4 or 6 week gap between doses, the UK arm 12. There were a number of other differences, but that was the main one.
    It doesn't look like any of the over 55 cohort were in the 12 week spacing part of the study just under 6 weeks and 6-8 weeks.

    This whole trial really does seem to have buggered up the over 55s part, but the immune responses do look good.
    Well, we are about to get the result of a 10 million strong randomised trial of AZ and Pfizer on an advanced nation of nearly 70 million, so, brace.

    Data Incoming.
    Not randomised.
  • MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, agree with that - with the proviso, which I am sure you'd accept, that anyone who cannot have the vaccine for certified medical reasons is exempt.

    If the virus continues to mutate and spread I think we are going to have to have tighter rules on what you can and cannot do if you choose not to be vaccinated. Certain occupations should require practitioners to vaccinated, travel, hotels, employers may all have to empowered to require vaccination.
    Agreed. For instance, I am sure that if Daughter is ever allowed to reopen before she goes bust she would want her employees to be vaccinated. Indeed, it may well become a H&S requirement.
    Our workplace has already hinted that all staff must be vaccinated by September, I do wonder what might happen to those who choose not to.
    For employees - no sick pay.

    For patients - charged cost of care.
    One wrinkle of low vaccine takeup amongst (some) BAME communities is that employers requiring vaccination certificates might be guilty of racial discrimination.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,932
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also of interest, the 55+ immune response looks good except in the UK study, in the Brazil and SA trial it was as good as younger cohorts. Even in the UK study it still looks reasonably good, but in the other two it looks excellent.

    I think Brazil and SA studies had a 4 or 6 week gap between doses, the UK arm 12. There were a number of other differences, but that was the main one.
    It doesn't look like any of the over 55 cohort were in the 12 week spacing part of the study just under 6 weeks and 6-8 weeks.

    This whole trial really does seem to have buggered up the over 55s part, but the immune responses do look good.
    Well, we are about to get the result of a 10 million strong randomised trial of AZ and Pfizer on an advanced nation of nearly 70 million, so, brace.

    Data Incoming.
    Not randomised.
    Doesn't need to be when it is that big. You can subsample to your heart's content.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,207

    For someone who was thought to be struggling early on in the pandemic, Hancock has long seemed like he has grown into the role.

    But the farsighted focus on the vaccine from the early days - and the "brave" (and right) decision to veto Oxford partnering with Merck and insisting upon a British outfit instead of an American one Trump could put controls on - was undoubtedly a masterstroke a long time in the making.

    It isn't over until the fat lady sings, but it does feel with this vaccine like she is very much warming up her vocal chords. Fingers crossed we can put this bastard bug behind us soon.

    Is there a wider significance to the Merck veto? Perhaps a realisation by HMG that a full trade deal would be very much on America's terms and a damn sight worse than what we'd just Brexited.
    The Government continues to make positive noises about a US trade deal, but one has to wonder whether, if they can gain membership of the Pacific trade bloc (as was discussed here last night,) then they might just sit there and keep their fingers crossed that Biden decides to follow suit?

    Obtaining trade deal lite by the back door might end up suiting the Government much better than years of tortuous negotiations (infinitely complicated by all kinds of special interest pleading in Congress) to try to seal a full-fat bilateral accord?
    Biden won't follow suit, because the US doesn't enter into equal free trade agreements*: they already have one sided deals with Canada, Mexico, South Korea and Australia, so what would the US gain?

    * By equal I'm talking about enforcement systems. The ISDS tribunals are all heavily skewed towards the US, and I simply can't see CPTPP rewritten to make it so America ran dispute resolution.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also of interest, the 55+ immune response looks good except in the UK study, in the Brazil and SA trial it was as good as younger cohorts. Even in the UK study it still looks reasonably good, but in the other two it looks excellent.

    I think Brazil and SA studies had a 4 or 6 week gap between doses, the UK arm 12. There were a number of other differences, but that was the main one.
    It doesn't look like any of the over 55 cohort were in the 12 week spacing part of the study just under 6 weeks and 6-8 weeks.

    This whole trial really does seem to have buggered up the over 55s part, but the immune responses do look good.
    Well, we are about to get the result of a 10 million strong randomised trial of AZ and Pfizer on an advanced nation of nearly 70 million, so, brace.

    Data Incoming.
    Not randomised.
    Modestly randomised. Pedant
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    HYUFD said:

    Kudos to Hancock who clearly got us ahead of the field on vaccines, whatever earlier mistakes the government made on delaying lockdown and the stoppage of flights they have been ahead of the game on vaccination

    Surely the vaccines success is down to Boris. I am sure I saw him inventing one in a laboratory in Oxford...or was he road testing a fridge for vaccine storage. I can't recall.
  • MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also of interest, the 55+ immune response looks good except in the UK study, in the Brazil and SA trial it was as good as younger cohorts. Even in the UK study it still looks reasonably good, but in the other two it looks excellent.

    I think Brazil and SA studies had a 4 or 6 week gap between doses, the UK arm 12. There were a number of other differences, but that was the main one.
    It doesn't look like any of the over 55 cohort were in the 12 week spacing part of the study just under 6 weeks and 6-8 weeks.

    This whole trial really does seem to have buggered up the over 55s part, but the immune responses do look good.
    That's the sad thing. A fair chunk of the unpleasantness of the last fortnight wouldn't have happened, had the trials done their job better.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380

    Fuck, I hadn’t realised it was Dershowitz who nominated Kushner for the Nobel (or known that’s how it works).

    https://twitter.com/jjz1600/status/1356689851668713473?s=21

    Perhaps you could nominate Boris!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,672
    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Second.

    We are going to have to say that no-one leaves or enters this country without proof of vaccination.

    If the French anti-vaxxers don't want to take the vaccine, that's up to them but they cannot enter our country if so.

    Vaccination is not a 100% guarantee against Covid and the unvaccinated could become a reserve for the spread of mutant strains.

    Yes, for sure. Airlines will demand it, for a start. Who wants to share the stifling air of a plane with someone who has refused to take the jab?

    You will not be able to fly without a vaccine passport. Airlines that guarantee this ("we demand vaccine passports! You are safer with us!") will have a HUGE advantage over those that don't. Ergo, it will happen.
    Given the popularity of budget airlines, even during a pandemic, I'm going to disagree.

    I actively avoid Ryanair because I find their general approach to customer service unattractive. I am a rarity amongst my mates.
    You are a rarity. I would happily pay a premium to know that my plane will carry no anti-vaxxers. Planes are established vectors. Recycled air? For hours and hours? Who on earth is so keen to get to Malaga or Dubai or Bangkok they will accept the risk of death or horrible disease - or giving that disease to loved ones - just to save £50, or even £500?

    Very very few. A proof of vaccination will be required to fly, in the end, by virtually all airlines, I suspect. The few airlines that don't will be *brave* and probably go under because they will be known as the Plague Airlines where you can still get the bug.
    I fear your approach to risk is based on contemporary cognitive bias - i.e. we're in the midst of a pandemic. Once you're vaccinated, and the vast majority of the public in the developed world are, views will change rapidly.

    People still have unprotected sex, despite the risks of horrific disease.

    I bet travel writers, such as SeanT formerly of this parish, wouldn't be put off by what will be a decreasingly small risk of illness from travel on public transport.
    I am clearly not SeanT, but the noises I hear from friends in the travel industry say the opposite: that vaccine passports are the only way out of this crisis, for an industry on the brink of collapse

    They will give real reassurance, they are possibly the only way you will get the masses back into planes. Remember, most people exaggerate threats, not the opposite. Sure, the super rich, super smart or super young will either disregard risk, or cleverly avoid it, but they are not the majority, by any means. Look at the massive support for total lockdown.

    Vax visas are coming, in some form
    Why would the super smart disregard the risk or avoid getting a vaccine?
This discussion has been closed.