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Tracking Covid – politicalbetting.com

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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited January 2021
    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    People know how much I love my straws to cling to, but there is evidence that global cases have been on their most sustained downward trend since the pandemic started for the last couple of weeks now - largely driven by ourselves and the US. If (big if) that is right then it should be showing up in the mortality rates soon as well. Fingers crossed.


    Does that not however leave aside the possibility that there are a great many cases out there in countries with less efficient testing regimes that are not being identified?
    Yes but Worldometers is just a crude aggregation which, in this case, helps. It has simply been totting up all the cases from all countries regardless of testing efficiency. So if one assumes that countries with poor testing have consistently poor testing, which I don’t think an unreasonable assumption, then the quality of their inputs to the site will have been the same throughout. Accordingly the up slope will be as accurate or inaccurate as the downslope. There has to be a reason for the downslope and you are suggesting that might be because testing is becoming less accurate and finding fewer cases - which doesn’t seem right,
    I think my answer would be that if some countries are hardly testing at all then cases could be spiralling out of control without being noticed and testing becoming, by default, less accurate as it is finding a smaller percentage of cases.

    It is of course good that cases in the US and UK are declining but I don’t see any special reason for celebrating.
  • ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I wonder if it was the departure of Dominic Cummings that was the making of Boris Johnson.

    And where might we be if BoZo had sacked him in March..?
    Barnard Castle?
    March??
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    felix said:

    Just seen a local report - I live in SE Spain - that 11 of 12 people in an old people's home have died after receiving the Pfizer jab - probably through very lax protocols following vaccination. It has me wondering if there are many/any stories yet in the UK of significant post-vaccine infections or deaths. If so I have clearly missed them. Of course I realise these people may well be very vulnerable to illness regardless of vaccination.

    In Isabel Oakshott's words, it doesn't matter as they would have died anyway.
    You really are unpleasant
    That's what she said....
    No need to add to her unpleasantness
    I'm not adding, i'm highlighting her comments from Skynews the other night. I would never agree with anything that woman says
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited January 2021

    felix said:

    Just seen a local report - I live in SE Spain - that 11 of 12 people in an old people's home have died after receiving the Pfizer jab - probably through very lax protocols following vaccination. It has me wondering if there are many/any stories yet in the UK of significant post-vaccine infections or deaths. If so I have clearly missed them. Of course I realise these people may well be very vulnerable to illness regardless of vaccination.

    In Isabel Oakshott's words, it doesn't matter as they would have died anyway.
    You really are unpleasant
    That's what she said....
    No need to add to her unpleasantness
    I'm not adding, i'm highlighting her comments from Skynews the other night. I would never agree with anything that woman says
    It was of course an extraordinarily stupid comment, even by the very low standards of Miss Piggy, because we’re all going to die anyway.

    The point is, most of us see no reason to rush the process.
  • Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Interesting thread.

    I find the 1 in 8 know a close friend or family difficult to believe.

    By my early (for a sunday) maths, with ≈ 52m adults in UK, each one of the 100K dead must have been a close family or friend to 65 people.

    I guess it depends on individual's definition of close .

  • The converse of the OP is also true - no opposition should expect to walk to victory on the basis of Covid in 2020-21 especially when the election possibly ain't until 2024.

    I do think many in Labour, particularly the more vocal lot online and away from any relevance, will assume so, and continue to assume that memes and slogans will win the Great Twitter Election of ̶2̶0̶1̶0̶ ̶2̶0̶1̶5̶ ̶2̶0̶1̶7̶ ̶2̶0̶1̶9̶ 2024.

    It also seems reasonably likely that not all of the party leaders now will be the party leaders then.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    Just seen a local report - I live in SE Spain - that 11 of 12 people in an old people's home have died after receiving the Pfizer jab - probably through very lax protocols following vaccination. It has me wondering if there are many/any stories yet in the UK of significant post-vaccine infections or deaths. If so I have clearly missed them. Of course I realise these people may well be very vulnerable to illness regardless of vaccination.

    In Isabel Oakshott's words, it doesn't matter as they would have died anyway.
    You really are unpleasant
    That's what she said....
    No need to add to her unpleasantness
    I'm not adding, i'm highlighting her comments from Skynews the other night. I would never agree with anything that woman says
    It was of course an extraordinarily stupid comment, even by the very low standards of Miss Piggy, because we’re all going to die anyway.

    The point is, most of us see no reason to rush the process.
    I'll agree with that, some of us are uncomfortably close to the end of the motorway anyway.
  • MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    ‘one in eight Britons say they have lost a close friend or family member to [Covid-19].’

    That works out at c.80 family members/close friends per deceased, which I’m sceptical about.

    Data + Journalist = Bollocks.
    How about doing some research before spouting your usual bollocks.

    It was based on a YouGov poll.

    The figures were produced by the statisticians who work for YouGov, some of them have even worked for the ONS, which is pretty good.

    It was also backed up by other evidence, such as 'The average number of Facebook friends for an adult is now 338. The median number of Facebook friends is 200.'
    They should have used the Facebook concept of "Close Friends", not "Friends" - the latter being fairly meaningless.
    The other factor that may have zoomed over the heads of some people is that they are using the government's figures which has a 28 day cut off point, people will make their own judgment on whether someone who died after that 28 day cut off period.

    But if you really want to precise, one in twenty adults know a family member who has died from Covid-19, that's still a worrying figure for the Tory party, when you factor in 66% of all voters and 42% of Tory voters think the there is more the government could reasonably have done to combat the disease.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Roger said:

    Just wait till the dust settles. This narcissist who adores dressing up with more costume changes than Danny La Rue will be out on his arse. Just the tiniest bit of reflection by the voters after the immediate dangers have passed and he'll be lucky if he isn't exiled let alone be permitted to remain PM

    Are you talking about Johnson?

    He'll face the electorate in 2024 and probably win a very tight race and do another 3/4 of a term is my guess at this point.
  • Are Labour still pushing to kill grandparents, or have they dropped that policy yet?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Are Labour still pushing to kill grandparents, or have they dropped that policy yet?

    Is this Labour’s answer to the ‘bedroom tax?‘
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    Dura_Ace said:

    felix said:

    Just seen a local report - I live in SE Spain - that 11 of 12 people in an old people's home have died after receiving the Pfizer jab - probably through very lax protocols following vaccination. It has me wondering if there are many/any stories yet in the UK of significant post-vaccine infections or deaths. If so I have clearly missed them. Of course I realise these people may well be very vulnerable to illness regardless of vaccination.

    In Isabel Oakshott's words, it doesn't matter as they would have died anyway.
    You really are unpleasant
    That's what she said....
    At least IO was spared the horror of house hunting in Hartlepool when Tice's bid to be the MP went dicks up.
    The thought of Miss Piggy with lice....
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677


    It also seems reasonably likely that not all of the party leaders now will be the party leaders then.

    I think it's close to certain that they will be the party leaders. Johnson is going nowhere; he's even won BigG back. Labour let Corbyn lose two GEs so SKS will get at least one.
  • Interesting thread.

    I find the 1 in 8 know a close friend or family difficult to believe.

    By my early (for a sunday) maths, with ≈ 52m adults in UK, each one of the 100K dead must have been a close family or friend to 65 people.

    I guess it depends on individual's definition of close .

    People have family and friends outside out of the UK!
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I wonder if it was the departure of Dominic Cummings that was the making of Boris Johnson.

    And where might we be if BoZo had sacked him in March..?
    Barnard Castle?
    March??
    specsavers??
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462

    tlg86 said:

    ‘one in eight Britons say they have lost a close friend or family member to [Covid-19].’

    That works out at c.80 family members/close friends per deceased, which I’m sceptical about.

    Data + Journalist = Bollocks.
    How about doing some research before spouting your usual bollocks.

    It was based on a YouGov poll.

    The figures were produced by the statisticians who work for YouGov, some of them have even worked for the ONS, which is pretty good.

    It was also backed up by other evidence, such as 'The average number of Facebook friends for an adult is now 338. The median number of Facebook friends is 200.'
    I wouldn't call a Facebook friend a 'close friend'. I'm always being invited to make a friend of someone who is a friend of a friend, and I very often can't work out whose friend they might be. And no, I almost never sign them up.
    I think I know some 25-30 people who have tested positive, but although some are extended family I would only describe two or three as being 'close;'.
    I know a couple of people who caught the virus in hospital, and died, but they were very ill anyway. (eg 90+ and with a serious heart condition.)
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,440

    Interesting thread.

    I find the 1 in 8 know a close friend or family difficult to believe.

    By my early (for a sunday) maths, with ≈ 52m adults in UK, each one of the 100K dead must have been a close family or friend to 65 people.

    I guess it depends on individual's definition of close .

    Also ignores clustering. Eg families losing more than one person. The number is wrong, or at best based on a very generous definition of close.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    Just seen a local report - I live in SE Spain - that 11 of 12 people in an old people's home have died after receiving the Pfizer jab - probably through very lax protocols following vaccination. It has me wondering if there are many/any stories yet in the UK of significant post-vaccine infections or deaths. If so I have clearly missed them. Of course I realise these people may well be very vulnerable to illness regardless of vaccination.

    In Isabel Oakshott's words, it doesn't matter as they would have died anyway.
    You really are unpleasant
    That's what she said....
    No need to add to her unpleasantness
    I'm not adding, i'm highlighting her comments from Skynews the other night. I would never agree with anything that woman says
    It was of course an extraordinarily stupid comment, even by the very low standards of Miss Piggy, because we’re all going to die anyway.

    The point is, most of us see no reason to rush the process.
    I'll agree with that, some of us are uncomfortably close to the end of the motorway anyway.
    I give you Ecclesiastes 9:12:

    Moreover, no one knows when their hour will come:

    As fish are caught in a cruel net,
    or birds are taken in a snare,
    so people are trapped by evil times
    that fall unexpectedly upon them.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Floater said:
    "Hard Left". Straight out of the Trump lexicon.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380

    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    Just seen a local report - I live in SE Spain - that 11 of 12 people in an old people's home have died after receiving the Pfizer jab - probably through very lax protocols following vaccination. It has me wondering if there are many/any stories yet in the UK of significant post-vaccine infections or deaths. If so I have clearly missed them. Of course I realise these people may well be very vulnerable to illness regardless of vaccination.

    In Isabel Oakshott's words, it doesn't matter as they would have died anyway.
    You really are unpleasant
    That's what she said....
    No need to add to her unpleasantness
    I'm not adding, i'm highlighting her comments from Skynews the other night. I would never agree with anything that woman says
    It was of course an extraordinarily stupid comment, even by the very low standards of Miss Piggy, because we’re all going to die anyway.

    The point is, most of us see no reason to rush the process.
    I'll agree with that, some of us are uncomfortably close to the end of the motorway anyway.
    Same for me, I am a junction or two away Pont Abraham too, but I am still hoping for a few miles on the A48 and A40 before hitting the B roads, yet.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Floater said:
    Who are the NEA and why would it help them if we closed schools forever?
  • tlg86 said:

    ‘one in eight Britons say they have lost a close friend or family member to [Covid-19].’

    That works out at c.80 family members/close friends per deceased, which I’m sceptical about.

    Data + Journalist = Bollocks.
    How about doing some research before spouting your usual bollocks.

    It was based on a YouGov poll.

    The figures were produced by the statisticians who work for YouGov, some of them have even worked for the ONS, which is pretty good.

    It was also backed up by other evidence, such as 'The average number of Facebook friends for an adult is now 338. The median number of Facebook friends is 200.'
    I wouldn't call a Facebook friend a 'close friend'. I'm always being invited to make a friend of someone who is a friend of a friend, and I very often can't work out whose friend they might be. And no, I almost never sign them up.
    I think I know some 25-30 people who have tested positive, but although some are extended family I would only describe two or three as being 'close;'.
    I know a couple of people who caught the virus in hospital, and died, but they were very ill anyway. (eg 90+ and with a serious heart condition.)
    Neither would I do, but even if fewer than a third of your friends on facebook are close you're near 60 close friends, add in family, and it is near the c.80 family members/close friends that TLG86 was talking about.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    People know how much I love my straws to cling to, but there is evidence that global cases have been on their most sustained downward trend since the pandemic started for the last couple of weeks now - largely driven by ourselves and the US. If (big if) that is right then it should be showing up in the mortality rates soon as well. Fingers crossed.


    Does that not however leave aside the possibility that there are a great many cases out there in countries with less efficient testing regimes that are not being identified?
    Yes but Worldometers is just a crude aggregation which, in this case, helps. It has simply been totting up all the cases from all countries regardless of testing efficiency. So if one assumes that countries with poor testing have consistently poor testing, which I don’t think an unreasonable assumption, then the quality of their inputs to the site will have been the same throughout. Accordingly the up slope will be as accurate or inaccurate as the downslope. There has to be a reason for the downslope and you are suggesting that might be because testing is becoming less accurate and finding fewer cases - which doesn’t seem right,
    I think my answer would be that if some countries are hardly testing at all then cases could be spiralling out of control without being noticed and testing becoming, by default, less accurate as it is finding a smaller percentage of cases.

    It is of course good that cases in the US and UK are declining but I don’t see any special reason for celebrating.
    I’m not sure it’s true that many countries are hardly testing at all. 100% agree that we have no cause for celebration, as I said in my post above I am a professional straw clutcher, but it’s not just us and the States. Even where other new variants have been found cases have plateaued (Brazil) or are falling quite sharply (South Africa). If you want a classic case of Farr’s Law seemingly in action, look at mortality in India.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    Do you mean opening up the dogmeat industry with Vietnam?
    A nice bit of racist posting for Sunday. Classy.
  • Rachel Reeves on Sophy trying to justify labour's teacher policy when her Welsh colleague, Mark Drakeford, rejects the policy saying he will only follow JCVI advice

  • ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I wonder if it was the departure of Dominic Cummings that was the making of Boris Johnson.

    And where might we be if BoZo had sacked him in March..?
    Barnard Castle?
    March??
    specsavers??
    The specsavers drive was in April, no?*

    Why would Boris have sacked him in March

    *April 12.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Its largely been a game of two halves, hasn't it? In the first half there were some unnecessary errors that cost lives, the moving of infected patients out of hospitals and into care homes, the complete failure to protect our borders, the shambles of the tracing app, the ridiculous complexity of tiers reducing compliance and understanding, overall not great although the scale and effectiveness of the economic interventions in furlough, grants, bounce back loans grants for the self employed etc were good points

    In the second half some of the seeds planted in the first have blossomed. The early and massive investment in vaccine and vaccine production in the UK has paid off in a staggering way, after the early shambles our testing is on a massive scale, our roll out of vaccines is proceeding exceptionally, the perception of overall performance is improving albeit we are still screwing up quarantine.

    Overall, the success with the vaccines edges me to a B+ or just maybe an A-. Could have been much better, could have been a lot worse.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462

    Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    With some exceptions we won't have the cultural ties. One of the reasons I object to leaving the EU is the ease of association and such things as the Erasmus project, Leaving that was just petty.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    edited January 2021

    Rachel Reeves on Sophy trying to justify labour's teacher policy when her Welsh colleague, Mark Drakeford, rejects the policy saying he will only follow JCVI advice

    "Labour's version of the 'bedroom tax'"

    for more hot takes, stay tuned!!
  • Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    Then you are letting your admirable loyalty to the Conservative Party get in the way of considering the possible downsides to the government's choices.

    Yes, CTPP is big, and yes, it deepens some existing trade relationships. But it's also a blooming long way away, which makes it less useful. We don't know how those two factors interact, so we don't know whether this is a win, lose or draw for the UK. Prediction is difficult, especially about the future.

    So if this turns into a net loss for the UK, or requires us to swallow things that we otherwise wouldn't (on farming standards, say), what do we do next?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:
    Assuming the EU vaccine program doesn't suddenly start going gangbusters and project the EU nations to the top of the league table, there has to be a reasonable chance of the EU Commission facing a vote of confidence in late spring.

    Remember that the Parliament cannot vote confidence in any Commissioner individually, only the Commission as a whole.
    Very clever rule. Makes what was already a tough process near impossible I'd say.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Roger said:

    Just wait till the dust settles. This narcissist who adores dressing up with more costume changes than Danny La Rue will be out on his arse. Just the tiniest bit of reflection by the voters after the immediate dangers have passed and he'll be lucky if he isn't exiled let alone be permitted to remain PM

    Yes - Macron is in trouble. Ironic that Trumps closest friend could be joining him soon.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    Just seen a local report - I live in SE Spain - that 11 of 12 people in an old people's home have died after receiving the Pfizer jab - probably through very lax protocols following vaccination. It has me wondering if there are many/any stories yet in the UK of significant post-vaccine infections or deaths. If so I have clearly missed them. Of course I realise these people may well be very vulnerable to illness regardless of vaccination.

    In Isabel Oakshott's words, it doesn't matter as they would have died anyway.
    You really are unpleasant
    That's what she said....
    No need to add to her unpleasantness
    I'm not adding, i'm highlighting her comments from Skynews the other night. I would never agree with anything that woman says
    It was of course an extraordinarily stupid comment, even by the very low standards of Miss Piggy, because we’re all going to die anyway.

    The point is, most of us see no reason to rush the process.
    I'll agree with that, some of us are uncomfortably close to the end of the motorway anyway.
    Same for me, I am a junction or two away Pont Abraham too, but I am still hoping for a few miles on the A48 and A40 before hitting the B roads, yet.
    omg yes, Pont Abraham is bad enough, even now as it's been turned into our "lorry Park" I hope to reach the A477 by the end.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    Nice story in The Sunday Times of how a St Austell doctors' practice unexpectedly got an extra consignment of Pfizer vaccine. They managed to get the word out, folks in, vaccine used within 24 hours.

    In doing so, they jabbed more people in that period than in all of Latvia, Lithuania and Ecuador combined. Which is rather sobering.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Floater said:
    Here is the actual press release:

    https://neu.org.uk/coronavirus-neu-national-recovery-plan-education

    The TL:DR version is:

    1) Schools are not safe, partly because the government is obsessed with declaring them safe rather then making them so;

    2) Although they do (contra earlier indications) want teachers vaccinated before reopening, they point out that won’t stop infections among children if we just go straight back, so they are advising a rota system instead;

    3) There will need to be additional support for those who are poorest or who have SEN to help them catch up.

    Can’t really argue with much of that, although as I’ve said I don’t see the point of vaccinating healthy teachers ahead of vulnerable parents.

    They then do go off on a left wing rant about restructuring society, but that doesn’t invalidate their opening.
  • Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    With some exceptions we won't have the cultural ties. One of the reasons I object to leaving the EU is the ease of association and such things as the Erasmus project, Leaving that was just petty.
    I do not agree

    The EU was asking too high a price and we now have the wider Turing replacement which offers a worldwide programme
  • DavidL said:

    Its largely been a game of two halves, hasn't it? In the first half there were some unnecessary errors that cost lives, the moving of infected patients out of hospitals and into care homes, the complete failure to protect our borders, the shambles of the tracing app, the ridiculous complexity of tiers reducing compliance and understanding, overall not great although the scale and effectiveness of the economic interventions in furlough, grants, bounce back loans grants for the self employed etc were good points

    In the second half some of the seeds planted in the first have blossomed. The early and massive investment in vaccine and vaccine production in the UK has paid off in a staggering way, after the early shambles our testing is on a massive scale, our roll out of vaccines is proceeding exceptionally, the perception of overall performance is improving albeit we are still screwing up quarantine.

    Overall, the success with the vaccines edges me to a B+ or just maybe an A-. Could have been much better, could have been a lot worse.

    The communications throughout has been pretty awful, making possibly understandable mistakes indefensible and, as you say, policies that were so complicated that it actively hindered what they were trying to achieve.

    They've still not worked out the right approach for it, giving it the weight and sensitivity it warrants but also knocking the many, many nonsenses on the head, promptly and efficiently.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Andrew Rawsley:

    There’s suddenly a lot of interest in Tory circles in the work of Daniel Kahneman, the Nobel prize-winning psychologist and behaviouralist. They are attracted to the professor’s thesis about how people recall difficult periods in their lives: they disproportionately remember, and therefore place the greatest weight, on how a harrowing episode came to an end. The contention is that even a deeply grim crisis can be thought of positively if the conclusion to it is an uplifting one.

    Tory strategists are calculating that this is a trait of human nature that can be exploited to their party’s benefit. They reckon that a successful vaccination programme will induce voters to forget the government’s contribution to all the distress and death that came before it. The challenge for the Tories’ opponents will be stopping Boris Johnson from getting away with this.


    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/31/the-bad-taste-question-about-covid-that-everyone-at-westminster-is-asking?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=&__twitter_impression=true
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Nice story in The Sunday Times of how a St Austell doctors' practice unexpectedly got an extra consignment of Pfizer vaccine. They managed to get the word out, folks in, vaccine used within 24 hours.

    In doing so, they jabbed more people in that period than in all of Latvia, Lithuania and Ecuador combined. Which is rather sobering.

    Seems an odd combination to pick. Did you mean Estonia?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:
    Who are the NEA and why would it help them if we closed schools forever?
    Fantastic news!

    Since Andrew Neil has thrown off the burdensome shackles of BBC non-partisanship rules, it seems he can make up any old right wing bollocks that takes his fancy.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    With some exceptions we won't have the cultural ties. One of the reasons I object to leaving the EU is the ease of association and such things as the Erasmus project, Leaving that was just petty.
    What was just petty was the EU trying to triple the fees for our continued use of the Erasmus scheme. A ploy which went about as well as their vaccines strategy.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Just wait till the dust settles. This narcissist who adores dressing up with more costume changes than Danny La Rue will be out on his arse. Just the tiniest bit of reflection by the voters after the immediate dangers have passed and he'll be lucky if he isn't exiled let alone be permitted to remain PM

    Yes - Macron is in trouble. Ironic that Trumps closest friend could be joining him soon.
    I thought Salmond was found not guilty?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:
    Here is the actual press release:

    https://neu.org.uk/coronavirus-neu-national-recovery-plan-education

    The TL:DR version is:

    1) Schools are not safe, partly because the government is obsessed with declaring them safe rather then making them so;

    2) Although they do (contra earlier indications) want teachers vaccinated before reopening, they point out that won’t stop infections among children if we just go straight back, so they are advising a rota system instead;

    3) There will need to be additional support for those who are poorest or who have SEN to help them catch up.

    Can’t really argue with much of that, although as I’ve said I don’t see the point of vaccinating healthy teachers ahead of vulnerable parents.

    They then do go off on a left wing rant about restructuring society, but that doesn’t invalidate their opening.
    So basically - no need for teachers to queue jump - would that be fair?

    Also kids will not be vaccinated - so are we waiting for herd immunity for adults?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Overnight all of Trump's legal team for the senate trial quit.

    I am thinking that is not a good sign.

    Isn’t it? It sounds like a very good sign to me. It suggests they think the Senate’s going to screw the orange haired motherf****** like a whore paid by the orgasm.
    Maybe less of that kind of analogy? It would be good to get some more gender diversity on here and that sort of thing doesn’t help. There are a lot of equally colourful analogies out there. Admittedly I can’t think of one immediately but still...
    You may be right, although it assumes people fit the stereotype of what analogies men and women utilise.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    With some exceptions we won't have the cultural ties. One of the reasons I object to leaving the EU is the ease of association and such things as the Erasmus project, Leaving that was just petty.
    Cultural ties? To anti-vaxxers running the show in Paris? German politicians talking of showing their 'weapons' in a vaccine war? The EC smashing Article 16 without consultation? What kind of cultural ties do you mean? There is also a faint hint of the 'we aren't like those people from distant lands' notable today. I'm not comfortable with it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. Mark, be fair.

    If the EU hadn't wanted us to join their vaccination scheme on such punitive terms, and driven us from any prospect of joining, we might be in the same boat as them right now.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462

    Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    With some exceptions we won't have the cultural ties. One of the reasons I object to leaving the EU is the ease of association and such things as the Erasmus project, Leaving that was just petty.
    I do not agree

    The EU was asking too high a price and we now have the wider Turing replacement which offers a worldwide programme
    Has anyone seen anything about the Turing project apart from an announcement?
    I was involved with student exchange projects at several times in my working life and, generally speaking, ease of travel and being reasonably nearby was an advantage
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    DavidL said:

    Its largely been a game of two halves, hasn't it? In the first half there were some unnecessary errors that cost lives, the moving of infected patients out of hospitals and into care homes, the complete failure to protect our borders, the shambles of the tracing app, the ridiculous complexity of tiers reducing compliance and understanding, overall not great although the scale and effectiveness of the economic interventions in furlough, grants, bounce back loans grants for the self employed etc were good points

    In the second half some of the seeds planted in the first have blossomed. The early and massive investment in vaccine and vaccine production in the UK has paid off in a staggering way, after the early shambles our testing is on a massive scale, our roll out of vaccines is proceeding exceptionally, the perception of overall performance is improving albeit we are still screwing up quarantine.

    Overall, the success with the vaccines edges me to a B+ or just maybe an A-. Could have been much better, could have been a lot worse.

    The communications throughout has been pretty awful, making possibly understandable mistakes indefensible and, as you say, policies that were so complicated that it actively hindered what they were trying to achieve.

    They've still not worked out the right approach for it, giving it the weight and sensitivity it warrants but also knocking the many, many nonsenses on the head, promptly and efficiently.
    I wouldn't disagree. For every short simple message such as Face space hands there has been conflicting messaging and at times a reluctance to see the obvious because it was unpalatable (eg Christmas). The way schools and exams have been handled both north and south of the borders has bordered on a disgrace. But you don't need to study the likes of Kahneman to realise that a strong finish may well be what counts.
  • Nunu3Nunu3 Posts: 225
    Honestly if Scotland was independent in the EU right now, it would be in the shit. Their vaccination numbers are already lagging.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380

    Andrew Rawsley:

    There’s suddenly a lot of interest in Tory circles in the work of Daniel Kahneman, the Nobel prize-winning psychologist and behaviouralist. They are attracted to the professor’s thesis about how people recall difficult periods in their lives: they disproportionately remember, and therefore place the greatest weight, on how a harrowing episode came to an end. The contention is that even a deeply grim crisis can be thought of positively if the conclusion to it is an uplifting one.

    Tory strategists are calculating that this is a trait of human nature that can be exploited to their party’s benefit. They reckon that a successful vaccination programme will induce voters to forget the government’s contribution to all the distress and death that came before it. The challenge for the Tories’ opponents will be stopping Boris Johnson from getting away with this.


    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/31/the-bad-taste-question-about-covid-that-everyone-at-westminster-is-asking?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=&__twitter_impression=true

    Or it could just be wishful thinking.

    Even if the theory floats, I still can't see the Tories avoiding being holed below the waterline, once Sunak runs out of cheques to write.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,101
    edited January 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    Then you are letting your admirable loyalty to the Conservative Party get in the way of considering the possible downsides to the government's choices.

    Yes, CTPP is big, and yes, it deepens some existing trade relationships. But it's also a blooming long way away, which makes it less useful. We don't know how those two factors interact, so we don't know whether this is a win, lose or draw for the UK. Prediction is difficult, especially about the future.

    So if this turns into a net loss for the UK, or requires us to swallow things that we otherwise wouldn't (on farming standards, say), what do we do next?
    At present there is a lot of grieving for the loss of EU membership, though maybe less after this last few days debacle, but nothing remains the same and we cannot foresee the future to the extent you are suggesting, but I believe even the EU will have to change away from more Europe to have any chance of surviving in its present form
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    edited January 2021
    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Just wait till the dust settles. This narcissist who adores dressing up with more costume changes than Danny La Rue will be out on his arse. Just the tiniest bit of reflection by the voters after the immediate dangers have passed and he'll be lucky if he isn't exiled let alone be permitted to remain PM

    Yes - Macron is in trouble. Ironic that Trumps closest friend could be joining him soon.
    I thought Salmond was found not guilty?
    Sssshhh - you'll bring out the nats - much too early for the mossie bites!
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    DavidL said:

    Its largely been a game of two halves, hasn't it? In the first half there were some unnecessary errors that cost lives, the moving of infected patients out of hospitals and into care homes, the complete failure to protect our borders, the shambles of the tracing app, the ridiculous complexity of tiers reducing compliance and understanding, overall not great although the scale and effectiveness of the economic interventions in furlough, grants, bounce back loans grants for the self employed etc were good points

    In the second half some of the seeds planted in the first have blossomed. The early and massive investment in vaccine and vaccine production in the UK has paid off in a staggering way, after the early shambles our testing is on a massive scale, our roll out of vaccines is proceeding exceptionally, the perception of overall performance is improving albeit we are still screwing up quarantine.

    Overall, the success with the vaccines edges me to a B+ or just maybe an A-. Could have been much better, could have been a lot worse.

    They (government or NHS I could not say) are still trying to move infected patients out of hospital to care homes - my father was one of them and this was as recently as about 3 weeks ago.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462
    felix said:

    Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    With some exceptions we won't have the cultural ties. One of the reasons I object to leaving the EU is the ease of association and such things as the Erasmus project, Leaving that was just petty.
    Cultural ties? To anti-vaxxers running the show in Paris? German politicians talking of showing their 'weapons' in a vaccine war? The EC smashing Article 16 without consultation? What kind of cultural ties do you mean? There is also a faint hint of the 'we aren't like those people from distant lands' notable today. I'm not comfortable with it.
    Well, can't object to 'cultural ties' with Australia, New Zealand etc can I! Was talking to a (now) Kiwi cousin yesterday!
    Fortunately politicians come and go and there's so much we have in common with the rest of Europe.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    With some exceptions we won't have the cultural ties. One of the reasons I object to leaving the EU is the ease of association and such things as the Erasmus project, Leaving that was just petty.
    I do not agree

    The EU was asking too high a price and we now have the wider Turing replacement which offers a worldwide programme
    Has anyone seen anything about the Turing project apart from an announcement?
    I was involved with student exchange projects at several times in my working life and, generally speaking, ease of travel and being reasonably nearby was an advantage
    On that argument everyone would stay home and sod the cultural exchange.
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    Micheal Martin on Marr trying to dance a fine line of lightly scalding the EU without seeming disloyal to the EU vaccine programme or disloyal to the Commission's dispute with AZ. Claiming the EU gave AZ a lot of money for research and production just like the UK.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited January 2021

    Andrew Rawsley:

    There’s suddenly a lot of interest in Tory circles in the work of Daniel Kahneman, the Nobel prize-winning psychologist and behaviouralist. They are attracted to the professor’s thesis about how people recall difficult periods in their lives: they disproportionately remember, and therefore place the greatest weight, on how a harrowing episode came to an end. The contention is that even a deeply grim crisis can be thought of positively if the conclusion to it is an uplifting one.

    Tory strategists are calculating that this is a trait of human nature that can be exploited to their party’s benefit. They reckon that a successful vaccination programme will induce voters to forget the government’s contribution to all the distress and death that came before it. The challenge for the Tories’ opponents will be stopping Boris Johnson from getting away with this.


    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/31/the-bad-taste-question-about-covid-that-everyone-at-westminster-is-asking?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=&__twitter_impression=true

    Someone down thread spoke of straw clutching. I know you try hard to find the silver lining but digging that one up must have taken a research department that would dwarf Saatchi's Worldwide
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    head meets desk repeatedly - fecking morons

    https://twitter.com/latimes/status/1355661567598223361
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462
    felix said:

    Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    With some exceptions we won't have the cultural ties. One of the reasons I object to leaving the EU is the ease of association and such things as the Erasmus project, Leaving that was just petty.
    I do not agree

    The EU was asking too high a price and we now have the wider Turing replacement which offers a worldwide programme
    Has anyone seen anything about the Turing project apart from an announcement?
    I was involved with student exchange projects at several times in my working life and, generally speaking, ease of travel and being reasonably nearby was an advantage
    On that argument everyone would stay home and sod the cultural exchange.
    Nonsense. On stilts.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    With some exceptions we won't have the cultural ties. One of the reasons I object to leaving the EU is the ease of association and such things as the Erasmus project, Leaving that was just petty.
    I do not agree

    The EU was asking too high a price and we now have the wider Turing replacement which offers a worldwide programme
    Has anyone seen anything about the Turing project apart from an announcement?
    I was involved with student exchange projects at several times in my working life and, generally speaking, ease of travel and being reasonably nearby was an advantage
    My daughter voted remain and her very positive experiences on Erasmus played a large part in that but she has also been quite enthused about the Turing scheme. In her time there were exchange schemes with both the US and the far east but they didn't have the same funding attached and you needed to be pretty well heeled to take advantage. The scheme seems to be based upon Erasmus with a similar level of funding but without the geographical restrictions.

    Of course there is still some uncertainty about how the EU institutions will respond to requests for students to do a year there for students not on Erasmus. It really shouldn't be a problem because they had non EU students before but after the vaccine fiasco little can be taken for granted.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    RH1992 said:

    Micheal Martin on Marr trying to dance a fine line of lightly scalding the EU

    With his coffee, or does he have a kettle?

  • Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    With some exceptions we won't have the cultural ties. One of the reasons I object to leaving the EU is the ease of association and such things as the Erasmus project, Leaving that was just petty.
    I do not agree

    The EU was asking too high a price and we now have the wider Turing replacement which offers a worldwide programme
    Has anyone seen anything about the Turing project apart from an announcement?
    I was involved with student exchange projects at several times in my working life and, generally speaking, ease of travel and being reasonably nearby was an advantage
    I think that many of tomorrow's students having the opportunity to study in the US will be very grateful for the Turing scheme which takes Erasmus and applies it worldwide
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,833
    edited January 2021

    Andrew Rawsley:

    There’s suddenly a lot of interest in Tory circles in the work of Daniel Kahneman, the Nobel prize-winning psychologist and behaviouralist. They are attracted to the professor’s thesis about how people recall difficult periods in their lives: they disproportionately remember, and therefore place the greatest weight, on how a harrowing episode came to an end. The contention is that even a deeply grim crisis can be thought of positively if the conclusion to it is an uplifting one.

    Tory strategists are calculating that this is a trait of human nature that can be exploited to their party’s benefit. They reckon that a successful vaccination programme will induce voters to forget the government’s contribution to all the distress and death that came before it. The challenge for the Tories’ opponents will be stopping Boris Johnson from getting away with this.


    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/31/the-bad-taste-question-about-covid-that-everyone-at-westminster-is-asking?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=&__twitter_impression=true

    Kahneman should be required reading for all. What is the episode that brings the covid story to an end and therefore people remember most? Vaccinations or facing the economic reality when govt support taps are turned off? I don't know but could make a case for either, it will probably vary a lot by person and personal circumstances.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited January 2021
    Just a reminder that over 25% of all UK Covid deaths have happened in the last month. The various UK administrations fucked up winter so badly I can barely. Contain my anger.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    RH1992 said:

    Micheal Martin on Marr trying to dance a fine line of lightly scalding the EU without seeming disloyal to the EU vaccine programme or disloyal to the Commission's dispute with AZ. Claiming the EU gave AZ a lot of money for research and production just like the UK.

    And they've had major production delays and delivery failings, just like the UK. Funny they seem to keep forgetting that during their tantrums.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited January 2021
    Floater said:

    head meets desk repeatedly - fecking morons

    https://twitter.com/latimes/status/1355661567598223361

    Morons may simply be stupid. They're pillocks. Bit more judgement against them with that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Floater said:

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:
    Here is the actual press release:

    https://neu.org.uk/coronavirus-neu-national-recovery-plan-education

    The TL:DR version is:

    1) Schools are not safe, partly because the government is obsessed with declaring them safe rather then making them so;

    2) Although they do (contra earlier indications) want teachers vaccinated before reopening, they point out that won’t stop infections among children if we just go straight back, so they are advising a rota system instead;

    3) There will need to be additional support for those who are poorest or who have SEN to help them catch up.

    Can’t really argue with much of that, although as I’ve said I don’t see the point of vaccinating healthy teachers ahead of vulnerable parents.

    They then do go off on a left wing rant about restructuring society, but that doesn’t invalidate their opening.
    So basically - no need for teachers to queue jump - would that be fair?

    Also kids will not be vaccinated - so are we waiting for herd immunity for adults?
    If vulnerable parents are vaccinated, then children - who don’t as a general rule become seriously ill - should be OK.

    On your first point, I would say less ‘no need’ than ‘no benefit,’ although that may be a distinction without a difference.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    With some exceptions we won't have the cultural ties. One of the reasons I object to leaving the EU is the ease of association and such things as the Erasmus project, Leaving that was just petty.
    I do not agree

    The EU was asking too high a price and we now have the wider Turing replacement which offers a worldwide programme
    Has anyone seen anything about the Turing project apart from an announcement?
    I was involved with student exchange projects at several times in my working life and, generally speaking, ease of travel and being reasonably nearby was an advantage
    My daughter voted remain and her very positive experiences on Erasmus played a large part in that but she has also been quite enthused about the Turing scheme. In her time there were exchange schemes with both the US and the far east but they didn't have the same funding attached and you needed to be pretty well heeled to take advantage. The scheme seems to be based upon Erasmus with a similar level of funding but without the geographical restrictions.

    Of course there is still some uncertainty about how the EU institutions will respond to requests for students to do a year there for students not on Erasmus. It really shouldn't be a problem because they had non EU students before but after the vaccine fiasco little can be taken for granted.
    Elder son had an Erasmus supported year in Germany during his Electronic Engineering degree; younger son a year in a Texas university doing his Economics course. The latter was directly managed by the Universities concerned. I would say the German experience was better and has had more lasting results, but that could well be due to the personalities.
    Elder son's son is about (assuming results) to start at Uni, but I don't yet know what, if any, exchange etc opportunities there will be.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    RH1992 said:

    Micheal Martin on Marr trying to dance a fine line of lightly scalding the EU without seeming disloyal to the EU vaccine programme or disloyal to the Commission's dispute with AZ. Claiming the EU gave AZ a lot of money for research and production just like the UK.

    Sanofi got a downpayment of 324m Euros for their failed vaccine.

    The Pasteur Institute - which stopped its unsuccessful Covid vaccine trial this week - benefited from this: "In an unprecedented move last March, President Emmanuel Macron increased France’s scientific research budget by 5 billion euros over the next 10 years and set up an emergency fund of 50 million euros to finance the search for a vaccine against COVID-19.

    The EU has had the misfortune of backing nags that keep pulling up lame.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,258

    Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    With some exceptions we won't have the cultural ties. One of the reasons I object to leaving the EU is the ease of association and such things as the Erasmus project, Leaving that was just petty.
    I do not agree

    The EU was asking too high a price and we now have the wider Turing replacement which offers a worldwide programme
    Has anyone seen anything about the Turing project apart from an announcement?
    I was involved with student exchange projects at several times in my working life and, generally speaking, ease of travel and being reasonably nearby was an advantage
    It's just as easy to get to Japan as it is to Germany. You get on an aeroplane.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,924
    edited January 2021

    Andrew Rawsley:

    There’s suddenly a lot of interest in Tory circles in the work of Daniel Kahneman, the Nobel prize-winning psychologist and behaviouralist. They are attracted to the professor’s thesis about how people recall difficult periods in their lives: they disproportionately remember, and therefore place the greatest weight, on how a harrowing episode came to an end. The contention is that even a deeply grim crisis can be thought of positively if the conclusion to it is an uplifting one.

    Tory strategists are calculating that this is a trait of human nature that can be exploited to their party’s benefit. They reckon that a successful vaccination programme will induce voters to forget the government’s contribution to all the distress and death that came before it. The challenge for the Tories’ opponents will be stopping Boris Johnson from getting away with this.


    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/31/the-bad-taste-question-about-covid-that-everyone-at-westminster-is-asking?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=&__twitter_impression=true

    Or it could just be wishful thinking.

    Even if the theory floats, I still can't see the Tories avoiding being holed below the waterline, once Sunak runs out of cheques to write.
    That is easy, and has betting implications. A snap election before 2024. The Tories' sweet spot is after Covid is beaten but before the economy fails. Boris retiring would add a new leader's bounce, and Boris himself would go down in history as an electoral colossus who delivered Brexit and conquered Covid.

    Ironically the country might do better with Boris in place. We do not need another austerity hawk to close down what is left of the economy.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Roger said:

    Just wait till the dust settles. This narcissist who adores dressing up with more costume changes than Danny La Rue will be out on his arse. Just the tiniest bit of reflection by the voters after the immediate dangers have passed and he'll be lucky if he isn't exiled let alone be permitted to remain PM

    Are you talking about Johnson?

    He'll face the electorate in 2024 and probably win a very tight race and do another 3/4 of a term is my guess at this point.

    Are you talking about Johnson?

    Yes. The very same. Happily I seem to have found someone who's ability to predict the political future is even worse than mine..
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Andrew Rawsley:

    There’s suddenly a lot of interest in Tory circles in the work of Daniel Kahneman, the Nobel prize-winning psychologist and behaviouralist. They are attracted to the professor’s thesis about how people recall difficult periods in their lives: they disproportionately remember, and therefore place the greatest weight, on how a harrowing episode came to an end. The contention is that even a deeply grim crisis can be thought of positively if the conclusion to it is an uplifting one.

    Tory strategists are calculating that this is a trait of human nature that can be exploited to their party’s benefit. They reckon that a successful vaccination programme will induce voters to forget the government’s contribution to all the distress and death that came before it. The challenge for the Tories’ opponents will be stopping Boris Johnson from getting away with this.


    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/31/the-bad-taste-question-about-covid-that-everyone-at-westminster-is-asking?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=&__twitter_impression=true

    Kahneman should be required reading for all. What is the episode that brings the covid story to an end and therefore people remember most? Vaccinations or facing the economic reality when govt support taps are turned off? I don't know but could make a case for either, it will probably vary a lot by person and personal circumstances.
    In my low moments (of which there are many) I get overly nostalgic. While moaning the other day about missing going into London my wife reminded me the other day that this time last year I was threatening to quit my job because I never saw my house in weekday daylight between mid November and mid February.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:
    Who are the NEA and why would it help them if we closed schools forever?
    Andrew Neil is long past his best.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Floater said:

    DavidL said:

    Its largely been a game of two halves, hasn't it? In the first half there were some unnecessary errors that cost lives, the moving of infected patients out of hospitals and into care homes, the complete failure to protect our borders, the shambles of the tracing app, the ridiculous complexity of tiers reducing compliance and understanding, overall not great although the scale and effectiveness of the economic interventions in furlough, grants, bounce back loans grants for the self employed etc were good points

    In the second half some of the seeds planted in the first have blossomed. The early and massive investment in vaccine and vaccine production in the UK has paid off in a staggering way, after the early shambles our testing is on a massive scale, our roll out of vaccines is proceeding exceptionally, the perception of overall performance is improving albeit we are still screwing up quarantine.

    Overall, the success with the vaccines edges me to a B+ or just maybe an A-. Could have been much better, could have been a lot worse.

    They (government or NHS I could not say) are still trying to move infected patients out of hospital to care homes - my father was one of them and this was as recently as about 3 weeks ago.
    That's appalling. I have been involved in some regulatory cases about care homes struggling with Covid. What is blindingly obvious is that the staff in those homes are of a much lower quality (and much more badly paid) than those in hospital, they don't have the training to implement infection control, they don't have the skills to use PPE properly, they really struggle with patients with limited understanding who want to move about and sit in the chairs in the lounge like they are used to and have very limited comprehension of social distancing.

    No doubt I am seeing the worst and there is good practice in places but it seems more than a bit unrealistic to me to expect care homes to provide the same level of protection and control that you would see in hospital.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,725

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:
    Who are the NEA and why would it help them if we closed schools forever?
    Andrew Neil is long past his best.
    .... but still better than nearly any of the current crop...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    Just seen a local report - I live in SE Spain - that 11 of 12 people in an old people's home have died after receiving the Pfizer jab - probably through very lax protocols following vaccination. It has me wondering if there are many/any stories yet in the UK of significant post-vaccine infections or deaths. If so I have clearly missed them. Of course I realise these people may well be very vulnerable to illness regardless of vaccination.

    In Isabel Oakshott's words, it doesn't matter as they would have died anyway.
    You really are unpleasant
    That's what she said....
    No need to add to her unpleasantness
    I'm not adding, i'm highlighting her comments from Skynews the other night. I would never agree with anything that woman says
    It was of course an extraordinarily stupid comment, even by the very low standards of Miss Piggy, because we’re all going to die anyway.

    The point is, most of us see no reason to rush the process.
    I'll agree with that, some of us are uncomfortably close to the end of the motorway anyway.
    I give you Ecclesiastes 9:12:

    Moreover, no one knows when their hour will come:

    As fish are caught in a cruel net,
    or birds are taken in a snare,
    so people are trapped by evil times
    that fall unexpectedly upon them.
    An excellent thought for a Coronavirus Pandemic Sunday. And I speak as an agnostic.

    "Evil times" does sum up our predicament, not only the pestilence, but some of the dark characters tasked with navigating us through it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462

    Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    With some exceptions we won't have the cultural ties. One of the reasons I object to leaving the EU is the ease of association and such things as the Erasmus project, Leaving that was just petty.
    I do not agree

    The EU was asking too high a price and we now have the wider Turing replacement which offers a worldwide programme
    Has anyone seen anything about the Turing project apart from an announcement?
    I was involved with student exchange projects at several times in my working life and, generally speaking, ease of travel and being reasonably nearby was an advantage
    I think that many of tomorrow's students having the opportunity to study in the US will be very grateful for the Turing scheme which takes Erasmus and applies it worldwide
    See my other post; familial experience suggests...... and I realise n=1.....that university experience in Europe is better than that in the US.

    Wide-ranging assumption based on limited experience, but supported by reading.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,440
    Alistair said:

    Just a reminder that over 25% of all UK Covid deaths have happened in the last month. The various UK administrations fucked up winter so badly I can barely. Contain my anger.

    Do you think uniquely fucked up, or just in line with the rest of the west? Genuine question. I think we have made some big errors, but the have been no easy choices. The economy plays a huge role in government thinking. Otherwise lock everything up until 0 cases.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Floater said:

    head meets desk repeatedly - fecking morons

    https://twitter.com/latimes/status/1355661567598223361

    Probably got in the way of the game.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    Nunu3 said:

    Honestly if Scotland was independent in the EU right now, it would be in the shit. Their vaccination numbers are already lagging.
    Not much gratitude being shown though for the UK voting to leave the EU - and so keep the Scots out of that shit.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    There's a wonderful extended piece on Sky News today on just how brilliant the UK has been on vaccines. It's well worth the read:

    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-rejected-contracts-and-a-hollywood-movie-how-uk-struck-deal-to-guarantee-vaccine-supply-12204044

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Gadfly said:

    RH1992 said:

    Micheal Martin on Marr trying to dance a fine line of lightly scalding the EU

    With his coffee, or does he have a kettle?

    Not one sufficient for the job - the EU wanted to ban high powered kettles*, remember?

    * Only not really https://fullfact.org/europe/first-they-came-vacuum-cleaners-will-it-be-kettles-next/
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462

    Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    With some exceptions we won't have the cultural ties. One of the reasons I object to leaving the EU is the ease of association and such things as the Erasmus project, Leaving that was just petty.
    I do not agree

    The EU was asking too high a price and we now have the wider Turing replacement which offers a worldwide programme
    Has anyone seen anything about the Turing project apart from an announcement?
    I was involved with student exchange projects at several times in my working life and, generally speaking, ease of travel and being reasonably nearby was an advantage
    It's just as easy to get to Japan as it is to Germany. You get on an aeroplane.
    Takes longer. And you can get a train to Germany.

    OK then, two trains.

    Or drive yourself.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    ydoethur said:

    Nice story in The Sunday Times of how a St Austell doctors' practice unexpectedly got an extra consignment of Pfizer vaccine. They managed to get the word out, folks in, vaccine used within 24 hours.

    In doing so, they jabbed more people in that period than in all of Latvia, Lithuania and Ecuador combined. Which is rather sobering.

    Seems an odd combination to pick. Did you mean Estonia?
    They were the three the Sunday Times chose.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,440
    kle4 said:

    RH1992 said:

    Micheal Martin on Marr trying to dance a fine line of lightly scalding the EU without seeming disloyal to the EU vaccine programme or disloyal to the Commission's dispute with AZ. Claiming the EU gave AZ a lot of money for research and production just like the UK.

    And they've had major production delays and delivery failings, just like the UK. Funny they seem to keep forgetting that during their tantrums.
    I’m pretty annoyed that none of our journalists/media have put to anyone from the eu that I have seen where the lack of delivery to schedule to the uk has been an issue. The eu seems to think it’s all been rosy for us, and it really hasn’t. At one point we were expecting 20 million doses ready before Christmas.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Andrew Rawsley:

    There’s suddenly a lot of interest in Tory circles in the work of Daniel Kahneman, the Nobel prize-winning psychologist and behaviouralist. They are attracted to the professor’s thesis about how people recall difficult periods in their lives: they disproportionately remember, and therefore place the greatest weight, on how a harrowing episode came to an end. The contention is that even a deeply grim crisis can be thought of positively if the conclusion to it is an uplifting one.

    Tory strategists are calculating that this is a trait of human nature that can be exploited to their party’s benefit. They reckon that a successful vaccination programme will induce voters to forget the government’s contribution to all the distress and death that came before it. The challenge for the Tories’ opponents will be stopping Boris Johnson from getting away with this.


    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/31/the-bad-taste-question-about-covid-that-everyone-at-westminster-is-asking?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=&__twitter_impression=true

    Or it could just be wishful thinking.

    Even if the theory floats, I still can't see the Tories avoiding being holed below the waterline, once Sunak runs out of cheques to write.
    That is easy, and has betting implications. A snap election before 2024. The Tories' sweet spot is after Covid is beaten but before the economy fails. Boris retiring would add a new leader's bounce, and Boris himself would go down in history as an electoral colossus who delivered Brexit and conquered Covid.

    Ironically the country might do better with Boris in place. We do not need another austerity hawk to close down what is left of the economy.
    An interesting idea.

    When do the new boundaries come in? The Tories would probably want those in place.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    There's a wonderful extended piece on Sky News today on just how brilliant the UK has been on vaccines. It's well worth the read:

    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-rejected-contracts-and-a-hollywood-movie-how-uk-struck-deal-to-guarantee-vaccine-supply-12204044

    The stories on Merck/AZ when the process was kicking off, if accurate, could be a rare example of an individual minister making a very real differece, positively.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:
    Who are the NEA and why would it help them if we closed schools forever?
    Andrew Neil is long past his best.
    .... but still better than nearly any of the current crop...
    "nearly"???
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Its largely been a game of two halves, hasn't it? In the first half there were some unnecessary errors that cost lives, the moving of infected patients out of hospitals and into care homes, the complete failure to protect our borders, the shambles of the tracing app, the ridiculous complexity of tiers reducing compliance and understanding, overall not great although the scale and effectiveness of the economic interventions in furlough, grants, bounce back loans grants for the self employed etc were good points

    In the second half some of the seeds planted in the first have blossomed. The early and massive investment in vaccine and vaccine production in the UK has paid off in a staggering way, after the early shambles our testing is on a massive scale, our roll out of vaccines is proceeding exceptionally, the perception of overall performance is improving albeit we are still screwing up quarantine.

    Overall, the success with the vaccines edges me to a B+ or just maybe an A-. Could have been much better, could have been a lot worse.

    The communications throughout has been pretty awful, making possibly understandable mistakes indefensible and, as you say, policies that were so complicated that it actively hindered what they were trying to achieve.

    They've still not worked out the right approach for it, giving it the weight and sensitivity it warrants but also knocking the many, many nonsenses on the head, promptly and efficiently.
    I wouldn't disagree. For every short simple message such as Face space hands there has been conflicting messaging and at times a reluctance to see the obvious because it was unpalatable (eg Christmas). The way schools and exams have been handled both north and south of the borders has bordered on a disgrace. But you don't need to study the likes of Kahneman to realise that a strong finish may well be what counts.
    Eat Out To Help Out....is going to take a lot of explaining.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462
    DavidL said:

    Floater said:

    DavidL said:

    Its largely been a game of two halves, hasn't it? In the first half there were some unnecessary errors that cost lives, the moving of infected patients out of hospitals and into care homes, the complete failure to protect our borders, the shambles of the tracing app, the ridiculous complexity of tiers reducing compliance and understanding, overall not great although the scale and effectiveness of the economic interventions in furlough, grants, bounce back loans grants for the self employed etc were good points

    In the second half some of the seeds planted in the first have blossomed. The early and massive investment in vaccine and vaccine production in the UK has paid off in a staggering way, after the early shambles our testing is on a massive scale, our roll out of vaccines is proceeding exceptionally, the perception of overall performance is improving albeit we are still screwing up quarantine.

    Overall, the success with the vaccines edges me to a B+ or just maybe an A-. Could have been much better, could have been a lot worse.

    They (government or NHS I could not say) are still trying to move infected patients out of hospital to care homes - my father was one of them and this was as recently as about 3 weeks ago.
    That's appalling. I have been involved in some regulatory cases about care homes struggling with Covid. What is blindingly obvious is that the staff in those homes are of a much lower quality (and much more badly paid) than those in hospital, they don't have the training to implement infection control, they don't have the skills to use PPE properly, they really struggle with patients with limited understanding who want to move about and sit in the chairs in the lounge like they are used to and have very limited comprehension of social distancing.

    No doubt I am seeing the worst and there is good practice in places but it seems more than a bit unrealistic to me to expect care homes to provide the same level of protection and control that you would see in hospital.
    Unless things have significantly changed since I first Inspected and then advised Care Homes that's true.
    Another worry is that staff move between homes; one shift here, another there, largely to top up their poor wages.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Andrew Rawsley:

    There’s suddenly a lot of interest in Tory circles in the work of Daniel Kahneman, the Nobel prize-winning psychologist and behaviouralist. They are attracted to the professor’s thesis about how people recall difficult periods in their lives: they disproportionately remember, and therefore place the greatest weight, on how a harrowing episode came to an end. The contention is that even a deeply grim crisis can be thought of positively if the conclusion to it is an uplifting one.

    Tory strategists are calculating that this is a trait of human nature that can be exploited to their party’s benefit. They reckon that a successful vaccination programme will induce voters to forget the government’s contribution to all the distress and death that came before it. The challenge for the Tories’ opponents will be stopping Boris Johnson from getting away with this.


    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/31/the-bad-taste-question-about-covid-that-everyone-at-westminster-is-asking?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=&__twitter_impression=true

    Or it could just be wishful thinking.

    Even if the theory floats, I still can't see the Tories avoiding being holed below the waterline, once Sunak runs out of cheques to write.
    That is easy, and has betting implications. A snap election before 2024. The Tories' sweet spot is after Covid is beaten but before the economy fails. Boris retiring would add a new leader's bounce, and Boris himself would go down in history as an electoral colossus who delivered Brexit and conquered Covid.

    Ironically the country might do better with Boris in place. We do not need another austerity hawk to close down what is left of the economy.
    An interesting idea.

    When do the new boundaries come in? The Tories would probably want those in place.
    Final report is due by July 2023.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Just wait till the dust settles. This narcissist who adores dressing up with more costume changes than Danny La Rue will be out on his arse. Just the tiniest bit of reflection by the voters after the immediate dangers have passed and he'll be lucky if he isn't exiled let alone be permitted to remain PM

    Are you talking about Johnson?

    He'll face the electorate in 2024 and probably win a very tight race and do another 3/4 of a term is my guess at this point.

    Are you talking about Johnson?

    Yes. The very same. Happily I seem to have found someone who's ability to predict the political future is even worse than mine..
    :lol:

    Well, I was certainly completely wrong about Trump in 2016.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Just wait till the dust settles. This narcissist who adores dressing up with more costume changes than Danny La Rue will be out on his arse. Just the tiniest bit of reflection by the voters after the immediate dangers have passed and he'll be lucky if he isn't exiled let alone be permitted to remain PM

    Are you talking about Johnson?

    He'll face the electorate in 2024 and probably win a very tight race and do another 3/4 of a term is my guess at this point.

    Are you talking about Johnson?

    Yes. The very same. Happily I seem to have found someone who's ability to predict the political future is even worse than mine..
    As someone who forecast, and successfully bet, on the US election, Brexit and the 2015 General Election I am convinced Boris Johnson will win a crushing victory next time.

    As the vaccine rollout continues apace and we leave the virus behind, whilst others lag, Boris Johnson's star will continue to rise. He's had a very good year so far. I note that he has stopped his War on Whitehall, which is a very significant moment that has slipped under the radar (cf. the Frost appointment issue). It's the Carrie effect and the departure of that nasty piece of work Dominic Cummings.

    Our vaccine strategy is world beating. The British Press haven't even begun their acclamation yet.

    Sir Keir Starmer is worthy and dull. He was the right person for the last election not the next one.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    Scott_xP said:

    our trade will have diversied across the globe

    It really won't
    It really will
    It might. On the other hand, it might not. It looks implausible; physical distance, time zones and (for many of the Pacific countries) language issues are reasonable reasons to think that focusing on nearer neighbours is a more fruitful strategy.

    We don't know for sure without trying, though. But if it is an experiment, what's the exit strategy?
    I endorse joining any free trading association that is just that and does not have the baggage the EU has

    Furthermore, once the US joins it will be the largest economic trading block in the world and I do not see why we need an exit strategy
    With some exceptions we won't have the cultural ties. One of the reasons I object to leaving the EU is the ease of association and such things as the Erasmus project, Leaving that was just petty.
    I do not agree

    The EU was asking too high a price and we now have the wider Turing replacement which offers a worldwide programme
    Has anyone seen anything about the Turing project apart from an announcement?
    I was involved with student exchange projects at several times in my working life and, generally speaking, ease of travel and being reasonably nearby was an advantage
    It's just as easy to get to Japan as it is to Germany. You get on an aeroplane.
    Takes longer. And you can get a train to Germany.

    OK then, two trains.

    Or drive yourself.
    Wot - no chauffeur?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,113
    edited January 2021
    I think the UK's high rate of vaccinations will improve our relative Covid performance. However if voters still blame Boris in 2024 for Covid deaths it should be remembered if Boris' Tories lost the 48 seats Blair's New Labour did in 2005 after Iraq then it would be a hung Parliament in 2024 with the Tories down to 317 seats .

    This time as TSE states the DUP may prefer a softer Brexit for the whole UK under a PM Starmer than the current situation under Boris with a border in the Irish Sea, even if the UK-EU trade deal has reduced that. Starmer also proudly positions himself with the Union flag and has not openly flirted with Sinn Fein as Corbyn did so is more amenable to the DUP than Corbyn was.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    In psychology, primacy and recency effects refer to people tending to remember the start and end of something more prominently. Ties in with the idea a good (or bad) finish could dominate the perspective of most people, looking back.
This discussion has been closed.