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Trying to explain what’s been happening in Brussels – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,168
edited January 2021 in General
Trying to explain what’s been happening in Brussels – politicalbetting.com

A short video explaining tonight's moves by the EU leadership in Brusselshttps://t.co/jRhWcUyXVf

Read the full story here

«13

Comments

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    gealbhan said:

    Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.

    My reasoning is this.

    It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.

    That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.

    Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.

    What in the last week gives you any idea that they would be interested in helping us?

    Forget it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,672
    FPT:
    sarissa said:

    So, today's summary:

    *European Commission threatens key vaccine manufacturer with legal action for breaking commitments it appears not actually to have made
    *European Commission threatens its allies with vaccine export bans. Exempts Bashar al Assad
    *President of France spreads blatant anti-vax propaganda in country with Europe's highest rate of anti-vax sentiment
    *European Commission activates emergency clause in key international treaty without making required legal representations to relevant parties
    *European Commission deactivates emergency clause in key international treaty after relevant parties find out and complain

    Is there anything I've missed?

    Has anyone read the released AZ contract yet? Reports say “best endeavours” included production from UK manufacturing plant(s).

    I suspect just about everyone else on here has read it, why don't you...

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_20_2467

    It's open to interpretation but key para imo is 5.1 which states "AstraZeneca shall use its Best Reasonable Efforts to manufacture the Initial Europe Doses within the EU for distribution..."
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,692
    Fenman said:

    I've a suspicion that Barnier could be in a new job soon...

    Good call.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    gealbhan said:

    Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.

    My reasoning is this.

    It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.

    That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.

    Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.

    Why do you think we should help rich europeans rather than poor somalians or palestinians....eu countries can afford to finance their own vaccine the third world cant. Maybe you think the lives of europeans are more important like kinablu?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Re President Macron FPT

    What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)

    Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.

    Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.

    My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    Leon said:

    Re President Macron FPT

    What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)

    Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.

    Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.

    My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way

    Ah beat the fascist dictator by being more of a fascist dictator ploy?
  • Nunu3Nunu3 Posts: 225
    Thank god we left that pile of shit when we did. Actually in retrospect it was good we didnt leave earlier in the middle of the pandemic.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Fenman said:

    I've a suspicion that Barnier could be in a new job soon...

    Good call.
    Isn't he rumoured to have his eye on the French Presidency?
  • Andy_JS said:

    gealbhan said:

    Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.

    My reasoning is this.

    It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.

    That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.

    Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.

    We could start by helping out the Republic of Ireland.
    I suspect being seen to offer the ROI millions of doses would help heal some of the horrors of our shared past. Plus the EU would hate it and possibly try to stop it, which would make them look even worse.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877

    All right, who had money on the EU publicly detonating their credibility within a month of the UK's final departure? I don't think even the headiest and most wild-eyed of the Brexiteers could have seen this one coming...

    Well most of us brexiteers did actually credit the europeans with a modicum of sanity. Sadly we find ourselves over estimating them
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Pagan2 said:

    All right, who had money on the EU publicly detonating their credibility within a month of the UK's final departure? I don't think even the headiest and most wild-eyed of the Brexiteers could have seen this one coming...

    Well most of us brexiteers did actually credit the europeans with a modicum of sanity. Sadly we find ourselves over estimating them
    Headless chickens with BDS
  • Nunu3Nunu3 Posts: 225
    Where is SeanT? I bet hes loving this EU crapping their pants business. Lol
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    edited January 2021
    Nunu3 said:

    Where is SeanT? I bet hes loving this EU crapping their pants business. Lol

    He's writing articles in Unherd.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Nunu3 said:

    Where is SeanT? I bet hes loving this EU crapping their pants business. Lol

    You mean you haven't noticed him on this thread?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    geoffw said:

    Pagan2 said:

    All right, who had money on the EU publicly detonating their credibility within a month of the UK's final departure? I don't think even the headiest and most wild-eyed of the Brexiteers could have seen this one coming...

    Well most of us brexiteers did actually credit the europeans with a modicum of sanity. Sadly we find ourselves over estimating them
    Headless chickens with BDS
    BDS? Bovine diahorrearic shit?
  • All right, who had money on the EU publicly detonating their credibility within a month of the UK's final departure? I don't think even the headiest and most wild-eyed of the Brexiteers could have seen this one coming...

    Amused by OGH's attempt to explain what has happened today.

    Since its past the lagershed, can I suggest that the EU's behaviour today culminating in saying they "mistakenly" invoked Article 16 is like someone turning up at A&E explaining that they slipped, fell, and now "accidentally" have an inanimate object stuck up their derriere.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    rcs1000 said:

    Right, now everyone's jumped on the anti-EU bandwagon, I've decided to switch sides.

    Frankly, it's no fun being a member of a crowd.

    What angle are you going with?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    Pagan2 said:

    gealbhan said:

    Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.

    My reasoning is this.

    It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.

    That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.

    Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.

    Why do you think we should help rich europeans rather than poor somalians or palestinians....eu countries can afford to finance their own vaccine the third world cant. Maybe you think the lives of europeans are more important like kinablu?
    As we know Covid-19 mainly affects very elderly people and most of them live in rich countries rather than Africa/Middle East.
  • Nunu3Nunu3 Posts: 225
    alex_ said:

    Nunu3 said:

    Where is SeanT? I bet hes loving this EU crapping their pants business. Lol

    You mean you haven't noticed him on this thread?
    I havent been able to access it. The web adress was infected or something
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Pagan2 said:

    geoffw said:

    Pagan2 said:

    All right, who had money on the EU publicly detonating their credibility within a month of the UK's final departure? I don't think even the headiest and most wild-eyed of the Brexiteers could have seen this one coming...

    Well most of us brexiteers did actually credit the europeans with a modicum of sanity. Sadly we find ourselves over estimating them
    Headless chickens with BDS
    BDS? Bovine diahorrearic shit?
    Brexit (or Boris) Derangement Syndrome.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586

    Andy_JS said:

    gealbhan said:

    Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.

    My reasoning is this.

    It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.

    That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.

    Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.

    We could start by helping out the Republic of Ireland.
    I suspect being seen to offer the ROI millions of doses would help heal some of the horrors of our shared past. Plus the EU would hate it and possibly try to stop it, which would make them look even worse.
    Agree. Also their population is so small that it wouldn't make much of a dent in our vaccine supply.
  • Is Joe Biden going to be any good at all?

    He's insanely lauded at the moment because he's not Trump, but that doesn't mean he's any good. He's got a history of lying and plagiarism (he claimed he had 3 degrees and he ripped off a Kinnock speech, whilst lying about his mining pedigree), he's got a weird habit of inappropriately touching children, he probably did unethically use his influence to get his boy a job in the Ukraine, and he doesn't appear to be in as much control of his faculties as I'd like for a US president.

    Sure he's better than Trump, but with a such a low hurdle UVDL or Macron (or even Boris!) would make good Presidents.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    Andy_JS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    gealbhan said:

    Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.

    My reasoning is this.

    It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.

    That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.

    Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.

    Why do you think we should help rich europeans rather than poor somalians or palestinians....eu countries can afford to finance their own vaccine the third world cant. Maybe you think the lives of europeans are more important like kinablu?
    As we know Covid-19 mainly affects very elderly people and most of them live in rich countries rather than Africa/Middle East.
    As we know covid disproportianately affects bame people and they live mostly in the middle east and africa.....next point?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Back on momentarily, I used the term jokingly earlier as I am not a fan of it, but are they actually, genuinely, trying to gaslight people as to what happened today? To convince everyone that the announcements and publications everyone saw did not exist, that the reaction to those things did not happen?
  • Will there be a Downfall parody of the EU's vaccine performance ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    edited January 2021
    Fenman said:

    I've a suspicion that Barnier could be in a new job soon...

    Times headline: "Barnier urges EU to step back from vaccine war"

    He's on manoeuvres!
  • Nunu3Nunu3 Posts: 225
    No, Joe Biden will not be a "good" president. Bit he will be good enough.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,207
    alex_ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Right, now everyone's jumped on the anti-EU bandwagon, I've decided to switch sides.

    Frankly, it's no fun being a member of a crowd.

    What angle are you going with?
    Oh, I'm going to keep it simple.

    Frankly, for the first time, the EU is genuinely thinking of its citizens, and how it can make sure they have the essential vaccines they need. I'm just glad they're finally thinking of the people, and not just looking after big corporations.

    How's that?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877

    gealbhan said:

    Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.

    My reasoning is this.

    It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.

    That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.

    Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.

    It looks likely that the Government is going to be left with a vast surplus of vaccines before this is all done. They have dodged the question earlier today of what they intend to do once phase one of the JCVI scheme is complete, which might not take very long at all at the current rate of progress. I dare say that the Government would've been happy to help the EU, amongst other parties. If they don't completely wreck our friendship by seizing all the UK's Pfizer orders then the UK Government probably will still help them.

    But how is the UK Government meant to find the political room to do anything to help in the first place if this rotten lot treat us as the enemy? Look at the enormous list of exemptions on their export control list, and then look at who isn't exempted. Then also take a look at the noises off that have come from their side, not just attacking AstraZeneca for the dreadful failing of not being able to deliver enough of a vaccine that the European Commission ordered far too late, but also foaming on about the UK showing insufficient solidarity, or wanting to start a vaccine war, or whatever other fictitious, bullshit accusation springs to mind.

    God alone knows the British Government is very far from bloody perfect, but in this case the entire fault for today's collective nervous breakdown lies at the door of the EU. They've done the sabre rattling, they've issued the threats, they've treated us as the enemy. All because they're looking for a scapegoat to try to obscure their own mistakes, and have decided that the UK is the best candidate available.

    I know that the European Commission and the member state politicians alike are facing a disaster and they're desperate, but beating us over the head, as a displacement activity to avoid having to confront their own liability, isn't on. We can help them, but first they need to back the Hell off.
    There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
  • Nunu3Nunu3 Posts: 225

    Is Joe Biden going to be any good at all?

    He's insanely lauded at the moment because he's not Trump, but that doesn't mean he's any good. He's got a history of lying and plagiarism (he claimed he had 3 degrees and he ripped off a Kinnock speech, whilst lying about his mining pedigree), he's got a weird habit of inappropriately touching children, he probably did unethically use his influence to get his boy a job in the Ukraine, and he doesn't appear to be in as much control of his faculties as I'd like for a US president.

    Sure he's better than Trump, but with a such a low hurdle UVDL or Macron (or even Boris!) would make good Presidents.

    He even stole the "build back better" slogan.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,939
    Until this week I was a remainer. Now I’m having doubts. There is a difference between looking after your own and threatening to destroy the health and life of other human beings.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,207

    Is Joe Biden going to be any good at all?

    He's insanely lauded at the moment because he's not Trump, but that doesn't mean he's any good. He's got a history of lying and plagiarism (he claimed he had 3 degrees and he ripped off a Kinnock speech, whilst lying about his mining pedigree), he's got a weird habit of inappropriately touching children, he probably did unethically use his influence to get his boy a job in the Ukraine, and he doesn't appear to be in as much control of his faculties as I'd like for a US president.

    Sure he's better than Trump, but with a such a low hurdle UVDL or Macron (or even Boris!) would make good Presidents.

    Joe Biden is rubbish. But he's not Trump.

    This, I feel, sums up many Americans views towards him:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTBpwOOTKjs&ab_channel=TheDailyShowwithTrevorNoah
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720

    Fenman said:

    I've a suspicion that Barnier could be in a new job soon...

    Times headline: "Barnier urges EU to step back from vaccine war"

    He's on manoeuvres!
    Barnier: "Leave it Manny, they're not worth it"
  • Has she tweeted in the form of a cryptic crossword clue?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Right, now everyone's jumped on the anti-EU bandwagon, I've decided to switch sides.

    Frankly, it's no fun being a member of a crowd.

    What angle are you going with?
    Oh, I'm going to keep it simple.

    Frankly, for the first time, the EU is genuinely thinking of its citizens, and how it can make sure they have the essential vaccines they need. I'm just glad they're finally thinking of the people, and not just looking after big corporations.

    How's that?
    That is actually true
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    If only our travel advice were so straightforward.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited January 2021
    Also, not that likes matter a damn, but I notice this 'post of the day' contender has had more than I've ever seen and deserves a final airing.
    maaarsh said:

    Lot of unfair comment on Macron here.

    He may not be an expert on vaccines, but he is an expert on over 65s and we should listen to his experience.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,672
    kle4 said:

    Back on momentarily, I used the term jokingly earlier as I am not a fan of it, but are they actually, genuinely, trying to gaslight people as to what happened today? To convince everyone that the announcements and publications everyone saw did not exist, that the reaction to those things did not happen?
    What announcements and publications? What reactions?

    :wink:
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pagan2 said:

    gealbhan said:

    Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.

    My reasoning is this.

    It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.

    That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.

    Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.

    It looks likely that the Government is going to be left with a vast surplus of vaccines before this is all done. They have dodged the question earlier today of what they intend to do once phase one of the JCVI scheme is complete, which might not take very long at all at the current rate of progress. I dare say that the Government would've been happy to help the EU, amongst other parties. If they don't completely wreck our friendship by seizing all the UK's Pfizer orders then the UK Government probably will still help them.

    But how is the UK Government meant to find the political room to do anything to help in the first place if this rotten lot treat us as the enemy? Look at the enormous list of exemptions on their export control list, and then look at who isn't exempted. Then also take a look at the noises off that have come from their side, not just attacking AstraZeneca for the dreadful failing of not being able to deliver enough of a vaccine that the European Commission ordered far too late, but also foaming on about the UK showing insufficient solidarity, or wanting to start a vaccine war, or whatever other fictitious, bullshit accusation springs to mind.

    God alone knows the British Government is very far from bloody perfect, but in this case the entire fault for today's collective nervous breakdown lies at the door of the EU. They've done the sabre rattling, they've issued the threats, they've treated us as the enemy. All because they're looking for a scapegoat to try to obscure their own mistakes, and have decided that the UK is the best candidate available.

    I know that the European Commission and the member state politicians alike are facing a disaster and they're desperate, but beating us over the head, as a displacement activity to avoid having to confront their own liability, isn't on. We can help them, but first they need to back the Hell off.
    There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
    The CTA is a good reason
  • All right, who had money on the EU publicly detonating their credibility within a month of the UK's final departure? I don't think even the headiest and most wild-eyed of the Brexiteers could have seen this one coming...

    Amused by OGH's attempt to explain what has happened today.

    Since its past the lagershed, can I suggest that the EU's behaviour today culminating in saying they "mistakenly" invoked Article 16 is like someone turning up at A&E explaining that they slipped, fell, and now "accidentally" have an inanimate object stuck up their derriere.
    They were always in the shower when the phone rang.

    My Dad has an awesome example of that from his registrar time. Someone came in with a really bad bladder stone. He couldn't pee it out so Dad had to cut him open to remove it. It was so large that Dad was compelled by curiosity to investigate and cut it open to find blutack inside it. The only way you can get blutack in your bladder is by pushing it up through your penis. When questioned the patient's story started with the phone ringing when he was in the shower..
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Fenman said:

    I've a suspicion that Barnier could be in a new job soon...

    Times headline: "Barnier urges EU to step back from vaccine war"

    He's on manoeuvres!
    Clearly some of Lord Frost's digs in their meetings about how the EU was, well, a bit rubbish really have had their effect.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    Being an eve player reminds me of the saying "There are no friends merely people you havent shot yet"
  • Nunu3Nunu3 Posts: 225
    The EU vaccination scheme was doomed to failure, as you cannot roll out such a scheme successfully to 27 different countiries with 27 very different healthcare systems. Ever closer union has failed them again and they never learn
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,939
    If we have excess vaccines after we have vaccinated all UK residents, I can think of about 100 countries who need our excess before the nations in the EU.
  • Charles said:

    Pagan2 said:

    gealbhan said:

    Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.

    My reasoning is this.

    It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.

    That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.

    Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.

    It looks likely that the Government is going to be left with a vast surplus of vaccines before this is all done. They have dodged the question earlier today of what they intend to do once phase one of the JCVI scheme is complete, which might not take very long at all at the current rate of progress. I dare say that the Government would've been happy to help the EU, amongst other parties. If they don't completely wreck our friendship by seizing all the UK's Pfizer orders then the UK Government probably will still help them.

    But how is the UK Government meant to find the political room to do anything to help in the first place if this rotten lot treat us as the enemy? Look at the enormous list of exemptions on their export control list, and then look at who isn't exempted. Then also take a look at the noises off that have come from their side, not just attacking AstraZeneca for the dreadful failing of not being able to deliver enough of a vaccine that the European Commission ordered far too late, but also foaming on about the UK showing insufficient solidarity, or wanting to start a vaccine war, or whatever other fictitious, bullshit accusation springs to mind.

    God alone knows the British Government is very far from bloody perfect, but in this case the entire fault for today's collective nervous breakdown lies at the door of the EU. They've done the sabre rattling, they've issued the threats, they've treated us as the enemy. All because they're looking for a scapegoat to try to obscure their own mistakes, and have decided that the UK is the best candidate available.

    I know that the European Commission and the member state politicians alike are facing a disaster and they're desperate, but beating us over the head, as a displacement activity to avoid having to confront their own liability, isn't on. We can help them, but first they need to back the Hell off.
    There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
    The CTA is a good reason
    There might be some nice symbolism in us helping out Portugal too.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    Charles said:

    Pagan2 said:

    gealbhan said:

    Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.

    My reasoning is this.

    It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.

    That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.

    Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.

    It looks likely that the Government is going to be left with a vast surplus of vaccines before this is all done. They have dodged the question earlier today of what they intend to do once phase one of the JCVI scheme is complete, which might not take very long at all at the current rate of progress. I dare say that the Government would've been happy to help the EU, amongst other parties. If they don't completely wreck our friendship by seizing all the UK's Pfizer orders then the UK Government probably will still help them.

    But how is the UK Government meant to find the political room to do anything to help in the first place if this rotten lot treat us as the enemy? Look at the enormous list of exemptions on their export control list, and then look at who isn't exempted. Then also take a look at the noises off that have come from their side, not just attacking AstraZeneca for the dreadful failing of not being able to deliver enough of a vaccine that the European Commission ordered far too late, but also foaming on about the UK showing insufficient solidarity, or wanting to start a vaccine war, or whatever other fictitious, bullshit accusation springs to mind.

    God alone knows the British Government is very far from bloody perfect, but in this case the entire fault for today's collective nervous breakdown lies at the door of the EU. They've done the sabre rattling, they've issued the threats, they've treated us as the enemy. All because they're looking for a scapegoat to try to obscure their own mistakes, and have decided that the UK is the best candidate available.

    I know that the European Commission and the member state politicians alike are facing a disaster and they're desperate, but beating us over the head, as a displacement activity to avoid having to confront their own liability, isn't on. We can help them, but first they need to back the Hell off.
    There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
    The CTA is a good reason
    That is only ireland and not that many of them so can do them and the spend the rest on the third world
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Right, now everyone's jumped on the anti-EU bandwagon, I've decided to switch sides.

    Frankly, it's no fun being a member of a crowd.

    What angle are you going with?
    Oh, I'm going to keep it simple.

    Frankly, for the first time, the EU is genuinely thinking of its citizens, and how it can make sure they have the essential vaccines they need. I'm just glad they're finally thinking of the people, and not just looking after big corporations.

    How's that?
    Really? The counter theory is that having vaccines is the new having a national airline and nuclear deterrent. Which not all regimes want to keep their citizens safe and transport them efficiently about the world.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Worth a note: the EU countries have now imposed their strictest EU and intra-EU border controls since the Peak of Wave 1 (and maybe worse). Schengen has been abandoned.

    Earlier, one PB-er posited the theory that EU governments sense a terrible third wave of Covid coming, hence the bizarre behaviour, in Paris, Brussels, elsewhere. In short: they are scared, and panicking, and absolutely desperate for jabs

    I'm not sure I buy it, but the closure of nearly all EU borders everywhere supports the theory
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Not sure that Brits sending the Irish their spare jabs wouldn't be seen as a touch patronizing.
    But leaving them in unguarded premises near the border ripe for a bit of smuggling might do it.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Being an eve player reminds me of the saying "There are no friends merely people you havent shot yet"

    In Eve you probably have shot them and forgotten about it :smiley:
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    The eu would be too cheapskate to buy nuclear weapons anyway judging by their expenditure on vaccines. They make Silas Marner look like a spendthrift
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Pagan2 said:

    There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people

    It's a difficult one. On the one hand the EU deserves no co-operation at all after today's events. On the other, (a) this is the fault of the politicians not the people, and (b) we don't want to end up as a ramshackle fort surrounded by plague ravaged badlands, like the besieged survivors in a zombie horror flick.

    It's probably a good idea to be pragmatic, although this is also an object lesson in why this country should aim to build relationships with the rest of the world as fast as possible. Just as, when Ireland joined the EEC, Dublin viewed it as an opportunity to reduce its dependence on Britain, so Britain should view Brexit as an opportunity to reduce its reliance on Europe.
  • Nunu3 said:
    But doesn't moron Macron have them?

    Fuck...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586

    Pagan2 said:

    There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people

    It's a difficult one. On the one hand the EU deserves no co-operation at all after today's events. On the other, (a) this is the fault of the politicians not the people, and (b) we don't want to end up as a ramshackle fort surrounded by plague ravaged badlands, like the besieged survivors in a zombie horror flick.

    It's probably a good idea to be pragmatic, although this is also an object lesson in why this country should aim to build relationships with the rest of the world as fast as possible. Just as, when Ireland joined the EEC, Dublin viewed it as an opportunity to reduce its dependence on Britain, so Britain should view Brexit as an opportunity to reduce its reliance on Europe.
    Yes, ordinary people in Spain and Portugal are getting zero vaccinations at the moment thanks to EU mistakes.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    edited January 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Right, now everyone's jumped on the anti-EU bandwagon, I've decided to switch sides.

    Frankly, it's no fun being a member of a crowd.

    What angle are you going with?
    Oh, I'm going to keep it simple.

    Frankly, for the first time, the EU is genuinely thinking of its citizens, and how it can make sure they have the essential vaccines they need. I'm just glad they're finally thinking of the people, and not just looking after big corporations.

    How's that?

    I'd say the core Remain arguments are:

    1) The EU provides a political framework for differences and tensions between European countries to be discussed and resolved peacefully and with the minimum of damage, rather than descending into damaging confrontations. This week being a perfect example of how quickly simple problems can deteriorate to talk of 'war'.


    2) The UK because of its geographical position is going to be deeply affected by the EU whether we are in it our out of it. Better to be in it and have some control and protection, than out of it and at its mercy. In the end, the UK is too big to be ignored by the EU but too small to fight back.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Thing about the Northern Ireland thing, is that really if the EU wanted to go down the route of vaccine "transparency" as they claim it should be easy. Simply introduce tracking controls within the EU. Given that they are seeking to control the vaccines at a supra-national level anyway, it doesn't make sense to only impose controls at the external borders. Where we, as a third party country, are under absolutely no obligation to co-operate.
  • If we have excess vaccines after we have vaccinated all UK residents, I can think of about 100 countries who need our excess before the nations in the EU.

    Except for Ireland. Ireland can have them, then the 100 countries.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,939

    Has she tweeted in the form of a cryptic crossword clue?
    She’s speaking Erse for the benefit of Irish politicians. Alternative definition of Erse - Scottish word meaning idiot, e.g. don’t listen to him, he’s an erse.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877

    Pagan2 said:

    There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people

    It's a difficult one. On the one hand the EU deserves no co-operation at all after today's events. On the other, (a) this is the fault of the politicians not the people, and (b) we don't want to end up as a ramshackle fort surrounded by plague ravaged badlands, like the besieged survivors in a zombie horror flick.

    It's probably a good idea to be pragmatic, although this is also an object lesson in why this country should aim to build relationships with the rest of the world as fast as possible. Just as, when Ireland joined the EEC, Dublin viewed it as an opportunity to reduce its dependence on Britain, so Britain should view Brexit as an opportunity to reduce its reliance on Europe.
    I thought the same before all this....we should send spare vaccines to countries that cant afford their own
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,851
    alex_ said:

    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Apologist. The only word to describe him.
    Remainiac still fits the bill.

    I said last night that that word I've been using for hmm 5 years now has finally been properly defined. Anyone backing the EU's actions over AZ is undoubtedly a Remainiac.

    I've been surprised by some of those who have escaped that moniker. WilliamGlen has been criticising the EU like the most ardent leavers. MysticRose has almost gone Tory. SouthamObserver has been furious at the EU. ScottPammer has even tweeted non pro EU stuff. Obvs not a comprehensive list so sorry to prominent EUphiles showing sanity that I've missed.

    The Remainiac remaining exceptions are obvious. I think we have to include Mr Meeks in that until he breaks his unusual silence.
    I think you've got to remember that a strong strand of the assumed "Remainer" group was always far more anti-Johnson than pro-EU.
    I initially read that as anti-Jacobin.

    Three cheers to OGH. He's never hidden his pro-EU views but has a sense of humour
  • Would AZ be able to sue Macron (or France) for what he's idiotically said?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    Leon said:

    Re President Macron FPT

    What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)

    Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.

    Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.

    My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way

    Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729
    edited January 2021
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Re President Macron FPT

    What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)

    Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.

    Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.

    My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way

    Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
    Definitely Remainiac.

    The arsehole has called the AZ vaccine ineffective in over 65s. Who in the FDA or the WHO or even the EMA has said that? The man is a dangerous lunatic who needs to be shut up.

    You're heading the same way.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Nunu3 said:
    But doesn't moron Macron have them?

    Fuck...
    Does anyone actually know what the authorisation requirements for French deployment is? What's their equivalent of "radio 4 going off air for two days"?
  • Leon said:

    Worth a note: the EU countries have now imposed their strictest EU and intra-EU border controls since the Peak of Wave 1 (and maybe worse). Schengen has been abandoned.

    Earlier, one PB-er posited the theory that EU governments sense a terrible third wave of Covid coming, hence the bizarre behaviour, in Paris, Brussels, elsewhere. In short: they are scared, and panicking, and absolutely desperate for jabs

    I'm not sure I buy it, but the closure of nearly all EU borders everywhere supports the theory
    Oh, I'm quite sure they are scared and panicking. They have good reason to be so. The comparison with the UK is stark: we've been experiencing a horrendous number of cases and thus deaths, partly due to government errors but partly due to the new 'British' variant; still, at least with our vaccine programme rolling out, we can see light at the end of the tunnel. They have made some of the same errors, are seeing increased cases, hospitalisations and deaths, and they know that the 'British' variant is going to hit them badly too, but simply a few weeks later. And they don't have the vaccine rollout to give them hope anytime soon - because they visibly screwed up. No wonder they are in a panic.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,692
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Re President Macron FPT

    What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)

    Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.

    Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.

    My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way

    Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
    The manufacturer on the single dose strategy: "For our vaccine, there is no doubt in my mind that the way the UK is going is the best way."

    https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2021/01/26/news/interview_pascal_soriot_ceo_astrazeneca_coronavirus_covid_vaccines-284349628/
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited January 2021
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people

    It's a difficult one. On the one hand the EU deserves no co-operation at all after today's events. On the other, (a) this is the fault of the politicians not the people, and (b) we don't want to end up as a ramshackle fort surrounded by plague ravaged badlands, like the besieged survivors in a zombie horror flick.

    It's probably a good idea to be pragmatic, although this is also an object lesson in why this country should aim to build relationships with the rest of the world as fast as possible. Just as, when Ireland joined the EEC, Dublin viewed it as an opportunity to reduce its dependence on Britain, so Britain should view Brexit as an opportunity to reduce its reliance on Europe.
    I thought the same before all this....we should send spare vaccines to countries that cant afford their own
    Look this is true. But there is also a clear national interest in the EU beating the virus as quickly as possible.

    Not to mention the issue of EU shortfalls leading to Eastern countries in particular falling back into Russian orbit.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    alex_ said:

    Nunu3 said:
    But doesn't moron Macron have them?

    Fuck...
    Does anyone actually know what the authorisation requirements for French deployment is? What's their equivalent of "radio 4 going off air for two days"?
    Le monde publishing a positive article about the uk?
  • Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Re President Macron FPT

    What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)

    Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.

    Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.

    My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way

    Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
    I take it you missed the fact the FDA have already extended their program to 6 weeks?

    I take it you missed the news the WHO is very interested in the UK's 12 week program, has a couple of representatives on the JCVI, are following our results with interest and are seriously considering making 12 week rollout WHO advice worldwide?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    edited January 2021
    stjohn said:

    Here's my take on this.

    I was a strong Remainer in the Brexit referendum. But I was not happy with the forced choice we appeared to be offered by the EU prior to the Brexit vote. Continuing on a path to increasing integration or the alternative - a potentially cataclysmic divorce. Reluctantly I preferred the former. We tumbled into the latter.

    Being autonomous over our own vaccine decision making is proving to be enormously significant and hugely beneficial to the UK. I am aware that we could have made some, or possibly all, of the same emergency vaccine decisions had we remained a member of the EU. But I suspect we would have followed a collective EU decision making path had we not Brexited.

    So I'm starting to wonder if Brexit might prove to be a "blessing in disguise" !!

    I would have preferred to have stayed in a 1990s-style European Union, the one that was doing sensible things such as getting rid of border controls between countries like France and Germany, and had slightly boring and stolid leaders like Helmet Kohl.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,939

    If we have excess vaccines after we have vaccinated all UK residents, I can think of about 100 countries who need our excess before the nations in the EU.

    Except for Ireland. Ireland can have them, then the 100 countries.
    Happy with that.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    JonathanD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Right, now everyone's jumped on the anti-EU bandwagon, I've decided to switch sides.

    Frankly, it's no fun being a member of a crowd.

    What angle are you going with?
    Oh, I'm going to keep it simple.

    Frankly, for the first time, the EU is genuinely thinking of its citizens, and how it can make sure they have the essential vaccines they need. I'm just glad they're finally thinking of the people, and not just looking after big corporations.

    How's that?

    I'd say the core Remain arguments are:

    1) The EU provides a political framework for differences and tensions between European countries to be discussed and resolved peacefully and with the minimum of damage, rather than descending into damaging confrontations. This week being a perfect example of how quickly simple problems can deteriorate to talk of 'war'.


    2) The UK because of its geographical position is going to be deeply affected by the EU whether we are in it our out of it. Better to be in it and have some control and protection, than out of it and at its mercy. In the end, the UK is too big to be ignored by the EU but too small to fight back.
    You are content that resolving those differences means none of the members getting vaccines in a timely fashion....really you think its worth that?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Re President Macron FPT

    What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)

    Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.

    Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.

    My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way

    Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
    Definitely Remainiac.

    The arsehole has called the AZ vaccine ineffective in over 65s. Who in the FDA or the WHO or even the EMA has said that? The man is a dangerous lunatic who needs to be shut up.

    You're heading the same way.
    He actually lowered the bar to over 60s for good measure!
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    If we have excess vaccines after we have vaccinated all UK residents, I can think of about 100 countries who need our excess before the nations in the EU.

    Except for Ireland. Ireland can have them, then the 100 countries.
    Happy with that.
    Me too

    The EU have proved in the last few days that they do not see us as either friends or allies

    I will not forget that.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    alex_ said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people

    It's a difficult one. On the one hand the EU deserves no co-operation at all after today's events. On the other, (a) this is the fault of the politicians not the people, and (b) we don't want to end up as a ramshackle fort surrounded by plague ravaged badlands, like the besieged survivors in a zombie horror flick.

    It's probably a good idea to be pragmatic, although this is also an object lesson in why this country should aim to build relationships with the rest of the world as fast as possible. Just as, when Ireland joined the EEC, Dublin viewed it as an opportunity to reduce its dependence on Britain, so Britain should view Brexit as an opportunity to reduce its reliance on Europe.
    I thought the same before all this....we should send spare vaccines to countries that cant afford their own
    Look this is true. But there is also a clear national interest in the EU beating the virus as quickly as possible.

    Not to mention the issue of EU shortfalls leading to Eastern countries in particular falling back into Russian orbit.
    There is what is that? Dont quote immigration as half our immigrants come from the third world...dont quote tourism as most of are tourists aren't from europe...They just happen to be near is all we don't interact with them all that much
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Re President Macron FPT

    What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)

    Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.

    Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.

    My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way

    Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
    Or..... the CDC

    https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/90832

    The Royal College of Surgeons

    https://www.rcseng.ac.uk/news-and-events/media-centre/press-releases/statement-jcvi-policy-delay-second-dose-covid-vaccines/

    The Royal College of Physicians

    https://www.rcseng.ac.uk/news-and-events/media-centre/press-releases/statement-jcvi-policy-delay-second-dose-covid-vaccines/

    or the Canadian Health Service

    https://www.rcseng.ac.uk/news-and-events/media-centre/press-releases/statement-jcvi-policy-delay-second-dose-covid-vaccines/


    As I said, the science is disputed. The fact is, no one can be sure. It is a punt, but one that, to me, seems justified when facing a desperate situation with a more virulent variant, and when you REALLY need to stop more mutations (from more infections)

    What Macron did was say everyone basically agreed with him, and the delayed 2nd dose was stupid. Which was stupid, of him. And also plainly wrong.
  • Does anyone have a table or source for how much each country (and the EU) have pledged for Covax?

    I can see funding things on the Gavi website but they're massive and apply to Gavi, not specifically Covax.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Pagan2 said:

    alex_ said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people

    It's a difficult one. On the one hand the EU deserves no co-operation at all after today's events. On the other, (a) this is the fault of the politicians not the people, and (b) we don't want to end up as a ramshackle fort surrounded by plague ravaged badlands, like the besieged survivors in a zombie horror flick.

    It's probably a good idea to be pragmatic, although this is also an object lesson in why this country should aim to build relationships with the rest of the world as fast as possible. Just as, when Ireland joined the EEC, Dublin viewed it as an opportunity to reduce its dependence on Britain, so Britain should view Brexit as an opportunity to reduce its reliance on Europe.
    I thought the same before all this....we should send spare vaccines to countries that cant afford their own
    Look this is true. But there is also a clear national interest in the EU beating the virus as quickly as possible.

    Not to mention the issue of EU shortfalls leading to Eastern countries in particular falling back into Russian orbit.
    There is what is that? Dont quote immigration as half our immigrants come from the third world...dont quote tourism as most of are tourists aren't from europe...They just happen to be near is all we don't interact with them all that much
    I was thinking more of our own citizens having a penchant for holidaying abroad...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    edited January 2021
    Slightly misleading tweet. 50% have had at least one vaccination, but it gives the impression its 32% at first glance. 32% is one jab only.
  • Fenman said:

    I've a suspicion that Barnier could be in a new job soon...

    If it is the one I am thinking of then I would not be unhappy with that development.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Pagan2 said:

    JonathanD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Right, now everyone's jumped on the anti-EU bandwagon, I've decided to switch sides.

    Frankly, it's no fun being a member of a crowd.

    What angle are you going with?
    Oh, I'm going to keep it simple.

    Frankly, for the first time, the EU is genuinely thinking of its citizens, and how it can make sure they have the essential vaccines they need. I'm just glad they're finally thinking of the people, and not just looking after big corporations.

    How's that?

    I'd say the core Remain arguments are:

    1) The EU provides a political framework for differences and tensions between European countries to be discussed and resolved peacefully and with the minimum of damage, rather than descending into damaging confrontations. This week being a perfect example of how quickly simple problems can deteriorate to talk of 'war'.


    2) The UK because of its geographical position is going to be deeply affected by the EU whether we are in it our out of it. Better to be in it and have some control and protection, than out of it and at its mercy. In the end, the UK is too big to be ignored by the EU but too small to fight back.
    You are content that resolving those differences means none of the members getting vaccines in a timely fashion....really you think its worth that?

    By May the EU (or the portions where the most are dying) will have caught up with the UK in vaccinations and this early panic will have been forgotten about. The UK will still have one of the highest death rates in the world and a shattered economy as well. Yes the EU have been idiots regarding vaccines but that doesn't change the overall picture.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Re President Macron FPT

    What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)

    Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.

    Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.

    My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way

    Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
    AZ Foxy.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited January 2021



    I initially read that as anti-Jacobin.

    Three cheers to OGH. He's never hidden his pro-EU views but has a sense of humour

    I believe OGH has had his first Pfizer ... but not his second. (Happy to be corrected)

    Clearly, those who had one Pfizer need the second in due course.

    They can't be given the second dose of a different vaccine.

    So, disruption of supplies by "our friends in the EU" may still cause problems -- even if we have plenty of other vaccines.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    edited January 2021
    Pagan2 said:

    gealbhan said:

    Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.

    My reasoning is this.

    It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.

    That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.

    Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.

    It looks likely that the Government is going to be left with a vast surplus of vaccines before this is all done. They have dodged the question earlier today of what they intend to do once phase one of the JCVI scheme is complete, which might not take very long at all at the current rate of progress. I dare say that the Government would've been happy to help the EU, amongst other parties. If they don't completely wreck our friendship by seizing all the UK's Pfizer orders then the UK Government probably will still help them.

    But how is the UK Government meant to find the political room to do anything to help in the first place if this rotten lot treat us as the enemy? Look at the enormous list of exemptions on their export control list, and then look at who isn't exempted. Then also take a look at the noises off that have come from their side, not just attacking AstraZeneca for the dreadful failing of not being able to deliver enough of a vaccine that the European Commission ordered far too late, but also foaming on about the UK showing insufficient solidarity, or wanting to start a vaccine war, or whatever other fictitious, bullshit accusation springs to mind.

    God alone knows the British Government is very far from bloody perfect, but in this case the entire fault for today's collective nervous breakdown lies at the door of the EU. They've done the sabre rattling, they've issued the threats, they've treated us as the enemy. All because they're looking for a scapegoat to try to obscure their own mistakes, and have decided that the UK is the best candidate available.

    I know that the European Commission and the member state politicians alike are facing a disaster and they're desperate, but beating us over the head, as a displacement activity to avoid having to confront their own liability, isn't on. We can help them, but first they need to back the Hell off.
    There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
    There is no particular reason that the EU will need help from the UK. They have over 2 billion vaccine doses on order too, so should have loads, even without the Sanofi-GSK which didn't work out. I expect though we will get further arguments over delivery targets.

    "Contracts have been concluded with AstraZeneca (400 million doses), Sanofi-GSK (300 million doses), Johnson and Johnson (400 million doses ), BioNTech-Pfizer 600 million doses, CureVac (405 million doses) and Moderna (160 million doses). The Commission has concluded exploratory talks with the pharmaceutical company Novavax with a view to purchasing up to 200 million doses and with Valneva with a view to purchase up to 60 million doses."

    From: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_20_2467
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