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Two things we don’t yet know – politicalbetting.com

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  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Pagan2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mortimer said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    It would hit a lot of elderly, asset-rich and cash poor in London certainly very hard.
    Then they can downsize if they want. Supply and demand.
    Like the Scottish fishermen who can move into another business if they want, hey? Supply and demand.

    If your purpose in posting here is to make the tory party look more attractive than it actually is, you do need to tone down the "fuck anybody who isn't me" vibe.

    I am not a London homeowner, in case you were wondering.
    That's not my purpose. My purpose is to debate politics, openly and honestly, with other politics nerds. I have no interest in reflecting the party and I don't take the party line, my opinions are my own.

    I see no reason why tenants in the Northwest should be compelled by taxation to pay 1% of their properties value in Council Tax while owner occupiers in London can get away with paying just 0.2% of theirs. Do you care to justify it?

    I'm not a fan of "progressive" taxation, but what we have now is positively regressive instead. A flat tax is fair, that people have gotten away without paying a flat tax for decades doesn't make introducing a flat tax unfair, it just means people haven't been paying their fair share.
    I'm thinking strategically too, or at least I think I am.

    I want broader property rights and capitalism defended long-term, and I simply see the current system as unsustainable.

    This is a classic conservative case of lead mild reform now or suffer radical change later.
    Reason 1 of many why the replacement of Council tax is very unlikely to happen.

    It puts safe Tory seats like Bmth West and Bmth East in play. Electoral suicide. Boris simply won't let it happen.

    There might be some tinkering around the edges, but an asset tax that includes the principal home of individuals is morally questionable, and electorally disasterous.
    The losers will certainly be far more unhappy than the winners are happy.
    Close to an iron rule of politics.
    Not having to pay Council Tax could certainly be very popular up here. It is the right thing to do, to make the policy fair and flat for all, and if the Tories don't do it then Labour certainly could offer it at the next election and sweep back to win back the North with policies like that.
    You've literally lost the 2024 election for the Tories. Attacking owner occupancy is electoral suicide. I doubt Labour would do it either, I expect them to go after holiday homes and second homes.
    Not attacking owner occupancy, just making it fair and flat rather than regressive as it is at the minute.

    If people stop following NIMBY policies trying to artificially inflate their house prices to make a paper profit but a very real loss for those trying to get on the ladder, because doing so results in a tax rise, then so much the better. Good and fair for everyone then.
    I don't want to defend property prices, nothing would make me happier than to see them fall as someone who is trying to buy a house right now.

    What I'm saying is that I have already paid ca. 40% tax on the income to buy said property and it generates zero return, in fact it will end up being a money black hole which generates VAT and income tax for construction.

    I'm all for taxing property, but only property which either sits empty (second homes, holiday homes) or is generating a return (rental property) and making that 2-3% per year.

    Taxing something that it is inherently impossible to generate a return from is morally wrong. I have bought my flat to live in, not because I want to stare at the value.
    This is entirely correct and is in line with my view that we should not put additional taxes on the home you live in (with the exception that we should consider more council tax bands at the top end). However I strongly support proper tax on investment/second property which is primarily held for investment - 3% capital value per year sounds reasonable.
    Congratulations you just hit the poorer people in even harder. As a renter I know that investment tax is getting passed on to me in my rent and under your scheme I will also pay council tax for the home I live in. Talk about the double whammy
    The policy would reduce property prices so hopefully then you could aspire to buy...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,354
    MattW said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    You could argue it's not fair how people who happen to live in London have experienced such a big bonus in terms of the value of their property over the last 40 years or so compared to elsewhere in the UK.
    I have to live in my house, how do I profit from something going up in paper value terms?
    you move house or suck it up
    Maybe move to Ayrshire where the property is cheaper but you may encounter some odd, unfriendly people! :lol:
    Ayrshire is beautiful, and certainly cheaper than down south. I have a modern 4 bedroom house at about 230-250K and an old Victorian quarter villa that is very spacious which is about 110K. If you go to Ayr you can get beautiful houses near beach around 300k+ for very big 4 beds, mind you they do have them in the millions there as well.
    I can be in Highlands, Borders, Edinburgh , etc all within a couple of hours. No need to be stuck in madding crowds like packs of seals, hard to beat.
    You stand to gain more from abolition of the Scottish SDLT tax version if they follow suit in a manner slightly different (obviously), as they hiked it up a bit before.

    Numbers of friends building houses in Scotlandshire tell me that selling anything large and highlands has been a bit of a bloodbath for the last few years.

    But that is anecdata.
    council tax at present is near 3K I think, I don't ever look at it as it makes me angry, was 2.5K plus a few years ago, water definitely makes it over 3K, but happy to keep water in public ownership, never grudge paying for that.
    Saying that I cannot believe it will be cut given the riots the last time the Tories tried it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    It would hit a lot of elderly, asset-rich and cash poor in London certainly very hard.
    Then they can downsize if they want. Supply and demand.
    Like the Scottish fishermen who can move into another business if they want, hey? Supply and demand.

    If your purpose in posting here is to make the tory party look more attractive than it actually is, you do need to tone down the "fuck anybody who isn't me" vibe.

    I am not a London homeowner, in case you were wondering.
    That's not my purpose. My purpose is to debate politics, openly and honestly, with other politics nerds. I have no interest in reflecting the party and I don't take the party line, my opinions are my own.

    I see no reason why tenants in the Northwest should be compelled by taxation to pay 1% of their properties value in Council Tax while owner occupiers in London can get away with paying just 0.2% of theirs. Do you care to justify it?

    I'm not a fan of "progressive" taxation, but what we have now is positively regressive instead. A flat tax is fair, that people have gotten away without paying a flat tax for decades doesn't make introducing a flat tax unfair, it just means people haven't been paying their fair share.
    I'm thinking strategically too, or at least I think I am.

    I want broader property rights and capitalism defended long-term, and I simply see the current system as unsustainable.

    This is a classic conservative case of lead mild reform now or suffer radical change later.
    Reason 1 of many why the replacement of Council tax is very unlikely to happen.

    It puts safe Tory seats like Bmth West and Bmth East in play. Electoral suicide. Boris simply won't let it happen.

    There might be some tinkering around the edges, but an asset tax that includes the principal home of individuals is morally questionable, and electorally disasterous.
    What do you think of adding extra council tax bands, Band I and Band J?
    I'd rather that govt stop spaffing money up the wall and talk about tax cuts, rather than rises.

    Grow the economy, increase the pie. That is the Conservative way.
    Tax rises are coming one way or another. The size of the hole we're in is ginormous.
    Declinist....
    Objective number one for me, as a Conservative, is a stable and content society. This is so the status quo is broadly maintained, and the economy can continue to grow and we can be prosperous long-term.

    The generational gap in politics and wealth is vast, and we must address it. This overrides my proclivity for no wealth or land taxes whatsoever in principle. I think the facts have changed.

    Young people have very little asset wealth or savings, whilst older people have a huge amount. It's all in assets and property. We need to find a way of more fairly taxing the nation's wealth base, just a tad more, and cutting taxes on income for working people. I'd even revisit going back to child trust accounts so that those without wealthy parents get, say, £10k to help them start out when they hit 18 or 19.

    Otherwise, I fear we'll get full-blown socialism one day, and a completely fragmented society.
    Your argument in bold is true, on average, but people like you, and me, and MaxPB are probably a few exceptions I can immediately think of - so is it true for Tory voters? I am not so sure.

    Many of my generation are already wealthier than their parents in asset terms (whilst at the same time many are not, and I'll grant you the variation seems much bigger than it did for our parents) - but often stretched. They also have far, far greater outgoings.

    Those who are stretched will often have worked hard, foregone luxuries, to secure a home. Any party that screws homeowners as a pure function of the value of their home, more of which is likely to be mortgaged amongst younger voters, is not going to be a party that forms the government.

    I understand where you're coming from, but think the key is going to be the tax recoup from boomer estates. By simply failing to increase the threshold on IHT the govt are going to clean up through fiscal drag.

    What do you mean by tax recoup from boomer estates?

    I wouldn't touch IHT, I agree.
    Lots of boomer estates are going to yuuuuugge, and so tax recoup will increase.
    Ah, you mean from IHT.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    One Tory strategist I know is of the belief the moment young people start becoming Tories is the moment they become homeowners.

    Don't mess with their homes.
    Well, that's true. But you have to get them to being a homeowner first.
    Then target private landlords, 1.2m of them own 4.5m houses and flats according to the last report I read. That's where the Tory party has failed since 2010, we didn't do anything to address private rentals that grew under Labour. Now you have to do something about it, Osborne made a great start and the government needs to continue along those lines by making it impossible to make a profit from buying an existing property and renting it out to someone who would otherwise like to own it but for the price.
    I always wonder why this isn't a problem in European countries. They must have an enormous number of landlords given everyone there rents.
    Home ownership rates are higher in most European countries. It's only the Germanic and Nordic part of Europe that has less home ownership than we do.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-rate-in-europe/
    Interesting, thanks. I was thinking of Germany when I typed that, and just assumed it was similar elsewhere. Is this a hot issue in Germany, too?
    I'd like to know what Romania are doing to get home ownership at over 95%+.

    Even though I'm sure they're not all Charles Church.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,354
    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    As I thought, Carlotta's dubious numbers from earlier were indeed dodgy...........only time she loves Scotland

    How exactly does that prove the numbers she posted were dodgy?
    She did not have UK at 7th and only used it as it did not split the countries, her hatred of Scotland ensured she could not show them down the park. If they had been highest in UK , she would have ensured she highlighted it big time.
    No, they had the UK at 6th simply because San Marino wasn't included. But the claim she was refuting was that the "UK was worst in Europe". Nothing about England or Scotland, so quite why the constituent parts need to be split when other countries are reported together is beyond me.

    In fact, the list you have posted is identical to the one she posted, excluding San Marino. How does that shows her numbers are dodgy and your's aren't?
    Name me any other multiple countries rolled up into one.
    The claim was regarding the UK's numbers, not those of the constituent parts. Much the same way we aren't looking at Bavaria's numbers, or Catalonia's.
    oh dear Rob you really are digging for Australia now, we are talking countries dear boy, you telling me you do not know the difference between a country and a region of a country. Poor attempt, just admit defeat and stop digging.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,696
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    One Tory strategist I know is of the belief the moment young people start becoming Tories is the moment they become homeowners.

    Don't mess with their homes.
    Well, that's true. But you have to get them to being a homeowner first.
    Then target private landlords, 1.2m of them own 4.5m houses and flats according to the last report I read. That's where the Tory party has failed since 2010, we didn't do anything to address private rentals that grew under Labour. Now you have to do something about it, Osborne made a great start and the government needs to continue along those lines by making it impossible to make a profit from buying an existing property and renting it out to someone who would otherwise like to own it but for the price.
    I always wonder why this isn't a problem in European countries. They must have an enormous number of landlords given everyone there rents.
    Home ownership rates are higher in most European countries. It's only the Germanic and Nordic part of Europe that has less home ownership than we do.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-rate-in-europe/
    Interesting, thanks. I was thinking of Germany when I typed that, and just assumed it was similar elsewhere. Is this a hot issue in Germany, too?
    In Germany institutional landlords are much more significant part of the market and if you rent long term, it's not dissimilar from the experience of owning something leasehold in the UK. Property prices generally have been more stable so buy to let as a get rich quick scheme never took off in the same way.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,241
    edited January 2021

    The one ethical argument I can see against equalising the taxes is that there's no liquidity in the house to pay for it. But people already have to pay Council Tax without any liquidity for it already today.

    If it were possible to say that those who don't want to or can't pay the tax see a charge placed on the property for when it is next sold instead, then would that answer concerns? An option that doesn't exist for Council Tax.

    So people who own a home but don't have an income would gain from an immediate abolition of Council Tax and instead when the house is sold and the equity is released then the charge is realised only at that point?

    That deferred point was in the proposal by the Group that came up with the original proposal.
    https://fairershare.org.uk/faq/#how-will-the-ppt-affect-a-pensioner-living-in-an-expensive-home-with-little-or-no-income

    Not sure if Rishi has picked it up.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,354

    I've just done a rough calculation, my parents bought their house for 18K and would pay that amount in about 15 months under this new property tax.

    And we're in the desolate North.

    I suspect many in the South would be paying their purchase price within weeks under this new house tax.

    I think your parents house would need to be worth over £2.8 million to pay that much.

    Don't you think it's fair you pay a little more given Band H in Sheffield tops out at £3,788?
    My parents, as am I, are ok with paying extra taxes, but I'm worried about the older folk who do not have the retirement income to pay such taxes. There's someone who lives close to us, and wouldn't be able to afford such a change, she really can't downsize because she's had the house adapted for her disability.

    There's plenty of things the government could change that would be affordable to those with decent incomes.
    Far better to charge on household income and use of services but it will never happen.
  • I've just done a rough calculation, my parents bought their house for 18K and would pay that amount in about 15 months under this new property tax.

    And we're in the desolate North.

    I suspect many in the South would be paying their purchase price within weeks under this new house tax.

    I think your parents house would need to be worth over £2.8 million to pay that much.

    Don't you think it's fair you pay a little more given Band H in Sheffield tops out at £3,788?
    My parents, as am I, are ok with paying extra taxes, but I'm worried about the older folk who do not have the retirement income to pay such taxes. There's someone who lives close to us, and wouldn't be able to afford such a change, she really can't downsize because she's had the house adapted for her disability.

    There's plenty of things the government could change that would be affordable to those with decent incomes.
    So if the charge could be rolled up to sale or death then would that be reasonable?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,866

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    One Tory strategist I know is of the belief the moment young people start becoming Tories is the moment they become homeowners.

    Don't mess with their homes.
    Well, that's true. But you have to get them to being a homeowner first.
    Then target private landlords, 1.2m of them own 4.5m houses and flats according to the last report I read. That's where the Tory party has failed since 2010, we didn't do anything to address private rentals that grew under Labour. Now you have to do something about it, Osborne made a great start and the government needs to continue along those lines by making it impossible to make a profit from buying an existing property and renting it out to someone who would otherwise like to own it but for the price.
    I always wonder why this isn't a problem in European countries. They must have an enormous number of landlords given everyone there rents.
    Home ownership rates are higher in most European countries. It's only the Germanic and Nordic part of Europe that has less home ownership than we do.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-rate-in-europe/
    Interesting, thanks. I was thinking of Germany when I typed that, and just assumed it was similar elsewhere. Is this a hot issue in Germany, too?
    I'd like to know what Romania are doing to get home ownership at over 95%+.

    Even though I'm sure they're not all Charles Church.
    Cheap property and a huge decline in population since joining the EU.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,241
    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    You could argue it's not fair how people who happen to live in London have experienced such a big bonus in terms of the value of their property over the last 40 years or so compared to elsewhere in the UK.
    I have to live in my house, how do I profit from something going up in paper value terms?
    you move house or suck it up
    Maybe move to Ayrshire where the property is cheaper but you may encounter some odd, unfriendly people! :lol:
    Ayrshire is beautiful, and certainly cheaper than down south. I have a modern 4 bedroom house at about 230-250K and an old Victorian quarter villa that is very spacious which is about 110K. If you go to Ayr you can get beautiful houses near beach around 300k+ for very big 4 beds, mind you they do have them in the millions there as well.
    I can be in Highlands, Borders, Edinburgh , etc all within a couple of hours. No need to be stuck in madding crowds like packs of seals, hard to beat.
    You stand to gain more from abolition of the Scottish SDLT tax version if they follow suit in a manner slightly different (obviously), as they hiked it up a bit before.

    Numbers of friends building houses in Scotlandshire tell me that selling anything large and highlands has been a bit of a bloodbath for the last few years.

    But that is anecdata.
    council tax at present is near 3K I think, I don't ever look at it as it makes me angry, was 2.5K plus a few years ago, water definitely makes it over 3K, but happy to keep water in public ownership, never grudge paying for that.
    Saying that I cannot believe it will be cut given the riots the last time the Tories tried it.
    It will be very interesting to see how this one goes.

    It certainly looks more likely than other previous ideas.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,210
    edited January 2021

    The Liverpool - Man Utd game is always hyped by the media but is pretty much always mediocre/shit.

    Two teams scared of losing to each other.

    especially with no fans - I like derby and big rival games but find this season no interest in them because of the lack of atmosphere. Its not as if the players are local born or really have any affinity to the clubs they play for anyway
    Yeah derbies have completely lost their venom. Can’t wait to get fans back again,
    I just cannot get into football without the fans. To me it loses far more than other sports.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    Sometimes, though, you need to do what is right, rather than what is popular.

    And don't forget, this will be a boon to the retired, because it enables them (should they wish) to downsize without ending up paying a massive chunk of change in stamp duty.
  • I've just done a rough calculation, my parents bought their house for 18K and would pay that amount in about 15 months under this new property tax.

    And we're in the desolate North.

    I suspect many in the South would be paying their purchase price within weeks under this new house tax.

    I think your parents house would need to be worth over £2.8 million to pay that much.

    Don't you think it's fair you pay a little more given Band H in Sheffield tops out at £3,788?
    My parents, as am I, are ok with paying extra taxes, but I'm worried about the older folk who do not have the retirement income to pay such taxes. There's someone who lives close to us, and wouldn't be able to afford such a change, she really can't downsize because she's had the house adapted for her disability.

    There's plenty of things the government could change that would be affordable to those with decent incomes.
    Yes, exemptions or discounts for those disabled or unable to move would be needed.

    I don't want anyone taxed out of their home, and that's a redline for me.
    I suspect your redline would mean so many exemptions across the country (particularly in London and the South) as to make the policy worthless.
  • Scott_xP said:
    That's the thing being debated tomorrow, isn't it?

    Awks.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,866

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    One Tory strategist I know is of the belief the moment young people start becoming Tories is the moment they become homeowners.

    Don't mess with their homes.
    Well, that's true. But you have to get them to being a homeowner first.
    Then target private landlords, 1.2m of them own 4.5m houses and flats according to the last report I read. That's where the Tory party has failed since 2010, we didn't do anything to address private rentals that grew under Labour. Now you have to do something about it, Osborne made a great start and the government needs to continue along those lines by making it impossible to make a profit from buying an existing property and renting it out to someone who would otherwise like to own it but for the price.
    I always wonder why this isn't a problem in European countries. They must have an enormous number of landlords given everyone there rents.
    Home ownership rates are higher in most European countries. It's only the Germanic and Nordic part of Europe that has less home ownership than we do.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-rate-in-europe/
    Interesting, thanks. I was thinking of Germany when I typed that, and just assumed it was similar elsewhere. Is this a hot issue in Germany, too?
    In Germany institutional landlords are much more significant part of the market and if you rent long term, it's not dissimilar from the experience of owning something leasehold in the UK. Property prices generally have been more stable so buy to let as a get rich quick scheme never took off in the same way.
    There's also a lot more regulation of the rental market in Germany, it's very difficult to make very much money from owning a single property and ripping off some poor tenant. The only way to make money there is to build thousands of flats and rent them. It's also why no one bitches about it because the rental market isn't a gigantic rip off.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    Sometimes, though, you need to do what is right, rather than what is popular.

    And don't forget, this will be a boon to the retired, because it enables them (should they wish) to downsize without ending up paying a massive chunk of change in stamp duty.
    They’ll hate it. There’s no way around that, I think.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    .
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    As I thought, Carlotta's dubious numbers from earlier were indeed dodgy...........only time she loves Scotland

    How exactly does that prove the numbers she posted were dodgy?
    She did not have UK at 7th and only used it as it did not split the countries, her hatred of Scotland ensured she could not show them down the park. If they had been highest in UK , she would have ensured she highlighted it big time.
    No, they had the UK at 6th simply because San Marino wasn't included. But the claim she was refuting was that the "UK was worst in Europe". Nothing about England or Scotland, so quite why the constituent parts need to be split when other countries are reported together is beyond me.

    In fact, the list you have posted is identical to the one she posted, excluding San Marino. How does that shows her numbers are dodgy and your's aren't?
    Name me any other multiple countries rolled up into one.
    The claim was regarding the UK's numbers, not those of the constituent parts. Much the same way we aren't looking at Bavaria's numbers, or Catalonia's.
    oh dear Rob you really are digging for Australia now, we are talking countries dear boy, you telling me you do not know the difference between a country and a region of a country. Poor attempt, just admit defeat and stop digging.
    But that's got nothing to do with the claim. The claim was that the UK had the highest death rate in Europe. Carlotta's (and your identical ranking) demonstrated that this was not the case. I fail to see how you have shown the numbers were dodgy.
  • kinabalu said:

    The Liverpool - Man Utd game is always hyped by the media but is pretty much always mediocre/shit.

    Two teams scared of losing to each other.

    especially with no fans - I like derby and big rival games but find this season no interest in them because of the lack of atmosphere. Its not as if the players are local born or really have any affinity to the clubs they play for anyway
    Yeah derbies have completely lost their venom. Can’t wait to get fans back again,
    I just cannot get into football without the fans. To me it loses far more than other sports.
    I think its because its a tribal game , a team game based on geography , the players dont really care or have affinity for clubs , to many they are just a high paying employer , bu the fans do care and hence without them it loses all its meaning
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,354
    MattW said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    You could argue it's not fair how people who happen to live in London have experienced such a big bonus in terms of the value of their property over the last 40 years or so compared to elsewhere in the UK.
    I have to live in my house, how do I profit from something going up in paper value terms?
    you move house or suck it up
    Maybe move to Ayrshire where the property is cheaper but you may encounter some odd, unfriendly people! :lol:
    Ayrshire is beautiful, and certainly cheaper than down south. I have a modern 4 bedroom house at about 230-250K and an old Victorian quarter villa that is very spacious which is about 110K. If you go to Ayr you can get beautiful houses near beach around 300k+ for very big 4 beds, mind you they do have them in the millions there as well.
    I can be in Highlands, Borders, Edinburgh , etc all within a couple of hours. No need to be stuck in madding crowds like packs of seals, hard to beat.
    You stand to gain more from abolition of the Scottish SDLT tax version if they follow suit in a manner slightly different (obviously), as they hiked it up a bit before.

    Numbers of friends building houses in Scotlandshire tell me that selling anything large and highlands has been a bit of a bloodbath for the last few years.

    But that is anecdata.
    Matt, should have said , without knowing the tax limit having not moved house in recent years, I think the tax is set at a level that only catches high value (for Scotland) houses. It is pretty cheap at lower end.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,866
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    Sometimes, though, you need to do what is right, rather than what is popular.

    And don't forget, this will be a boon to the retired, because it enables them (should they wish) to downsize without ending up paying a massive chunk of change in stamp duty.
    We have 4.5m homes owned by private landlords in this country, target that property at a higher rate. Taxing primary residences for wealth taxes knowing that they can't be worked for income is morally wrong, regardless of whatever economic or social benefits it might bring.
  • Not sure if this has been linked to today yet but this is a really thoughtful, well balanced and thought provoking article.

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/17/proud-to-be-english-how-we-can-shape-a-progressive-patriotism

    "In parts of the left, there is an unattractive blind spot that misses the importance of collective attachment to an inherited landscape, both physical and emotional. That landscape is not immutable but it shapes a sense of belonging and context. For many Leave voters, particularly those who have traditionally voted Labour, the emotional landscape of “England” has offered a way to express communal values neglected during 30 years of excessive individualism, licensed by both left and right."
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,241
    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    You could argue it's not fair how people who happen to live in London have experienced such a big bonus in terms of the value of their property over the last 40 years or so compared to elsewhere in the UK.
    I have to live in my house, how do I profit from something going up in paper value terms?
    you move house or suck it up
    Maybe move to Ayrshire where the property is cheaper but you may encounter some odd, unfriendly people! :lol:
    Ayrshire is beautiful, and certainly cheaper than down south. I have a modern 4 bedroom house at about 230-250K and an old Victorian quarter villa that is very spacious which is about 110K. If you go to Ayr you can get beautiful houses near beach around 300k+ for very big 4 beds, mind you they do have them in the millions there as well.
    I can be in Highlands, Borders, Edinburgh , etc all within a couple of hours. No need to be stuck in madding crowds like packs of seals, hard to beat.
    You stand to gain more from abolition of the Scottish SDLT tax version if they follow suit in a manner slightly different (obviously), as they hiked it up a bit before.

    Numbers of friends building houses in Scotlandshire tell me that selling anything large and highlands has been a bit of a bloodbath for the last few years.

    But that is anecdata.
    Matt, should have said , without knowing the tax limit having not moved house in recent years, I think the tax is set at a level that only catches high value (for Scotland) houses. It is pretty cheap at lower end.
    Cheers, Malc.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,354

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    As I thought, Carlotta's dubious numbers from earlier were indeed dodgy...........only time she loves Scotland

    How exactly does that prove the numbers she posted were dodgy?
    She did not have UK at 7th and only used it as it did not split the countries, her hatred of Scotland ensured she could not show them down the park. If they had been highest in UK , she would have ensured she highlighted it big time.
    No, they had the UK at 6th simply because San Marino wasn't included. But the claim she was refuting was that the "UK was worst in Europe". Nothing about England or Scotland, so quite why the constituent parts need to be split when other countries are reported together is beyond me.

    In fact, the list you have posted is identical to the one she posted, excluding San Marino. How does that shows her numbers are dodgy and your's aren't?
    Name me any other multiple countries rolled up into one.
    Flanders and Wallonia. They even have different languages.
    When were they last countries then.........
    The Flemish Region of Belgium (or Flanders) is a Dutch-speaking area in the country's north, and one of 3 Belgian regions
    Wallonia is the French-speaking region of southern Belgium
  • I've just done a rough calculation, my parents bought their house for 18K and would pay that amount in about 15 months under this new property tax.

    And we're in the desolate North.

    I suspect many in the South would be paying their purchase price within weeks under this new house tax.

    I think your parents house would need to be worth over £2.8 million to pay that much.

    Don't you think it's fair you pay a little more given Band H in Sheffield tops out at £3,788?
    My parents, as am I, are ok with paying extra taxes, but I'm worried about the older folk who do not have the retirement income to pay such taxes. There's someone who lives close to us, and wouldn't be able to afford such a change, she really can't downsize because she's had the house adapted for her disability.

    There's plenty of things the government could change that would be affordable to those with decent incomes.
    Yes, exemptions or discounts for those disabled or unable to move would be needed.

    I don't want anyone taxed out of their home, and that's a redline for me.
    I suspect your redline would mean so many exemptions across the country (particularly in London and the South) as to make the policy worthless.
    No need for any exceptions if you just have a simple opt out with a charge attached. For cashflow the government has no interest and is printing it's deficit in the short term anyway so it can accrue the deferred payments and then get them in the future when it is affordable.

    Short term almost everyone would see Council Tax abolished and have an immediate cashflow benefit. Cashflow is the lifeblood of the economy, so improving cashflow should improve the economy.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    Sometimes, though, you need to do what is right, rather than what is popular.

    And don't forget, this will be a boon to the retired, because it enables them (should they wish) to downsize without ending up paying a massive chunk of change in stamp duty.
    We have 4.5m homes owned by private landlords in this country, target that property at a higher rate. Taxing primary residences for wealth taxes knowing that they can't be worked for income is morally wrong, regardless of whatever economic or social benefits it might bring.
    We need rent controls and to make it less attractive to be a private landlord
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,866
    edited January 2021
    Anyway, dinner beckons, fresh tagliatelle with a garlic, mushroom, pancetta and butter sauce topped with fresh parsley and a nice bottle of Nero d'Avola to go with it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,354
    RobD said:

    .

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    As I thought, Carlotta's dubious numbers from earlier were indeed dodgy...........only time she loves Scotland

    How exactly does that prove the numbers she posted were dodgy?
    She did not have UK at 7th and only used it as it did not split the countries, her hatred of Scotland ensured she could not show them down the park. If they had been highest in UK , she would have ensured she highlighted it big time.
    No, they had the UK at 6th simply because San Marino wasn't included. But the claim she was refuting was that the "UK was worst in Europe". Nothing about England or Scotland, so quite why the constituent parts need to be split when other countries are reported together is beyond me.

    In fact, the list you have posted is identical to the one she posted, excluding San Marino. How does that shows her numbers are dodgy and your's aren't?
    Name me any other multiple countries rolled up into one.
    The claim was regarding the UK's numbers, not those of the constituent parts. Much the same way we aren't looking at Bavaria's numbers, or Catalonia's.
    oh dear Rob you really are digging for Australia now, we are talking countries dear boy, you telling me you do not know the difference between a country and a region of a country. Poor attempt, just admit defeat and stop digging.
    But that's got nothing to do with the claim. The claim was that the UK had the highest death rate in Europe. Carlotta's (and your identical ranking) demonstrated that this was not the case. I fail to see how you have shown the numbers were dodgy.
    I just said her numbers were dodgy and they appear so , using UK as one block and excluding San Marino for two examples make it look better than it is
  • ping said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    Sometimes, though, you need to do what is right, rather than what is popular.

    And don't forget, this will be a boon to the retired, because it enables them (should they wish) to downsize without ending up paying a massive chunk of change in stamp duty.
    They’ll hate it. There’s no way around that, I think.
    Deferral is the way to ensure they shouldn't hate it. They see potentially Council Tax abolished with no replacement payable in their lifetime unless they move, and there's no SDLT when they move.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,241
    edited January 2021
    Half past seven and time for tea.

    Ooops. Dinner.

    Really interesting debate - thanks, all.
  • MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    Sometimes, though, you need to do what is right, rather than what is popular.

    And don't forget, this will be a boon to the retired, because it enables them (should they wish) to downsize without ending up paying a massive chunk of change in stamp duty.
    We have 4.5m homes owned by private landlords in this country, target that property at a higher rate. Taxing primary residences for wealth taxes knowing that they can't be worked for income is morally wrong, regardless of whatever economic or social benefits it might bring.
    What if the charge is deferred until the wealth is realised, at sale or death?

    We currently tax people property taxes regardless of affordability with no option for deferral.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    As I thought, Carlotta's dubious numbers from earlier were indeed dodgy...........only time she loves Scotland

    How exactly does that prove the numbers she posted were dodgy?
    She did not have UK at 7th and only used it as it did not split the countries, her hatred of Scotland ensured she could not show them down the park. If they had been highest in UK , she would have ensured she highlighted it big time.
    No, they had the UK at 6th simply because San Marino wasn't included. But the claim she was refuting was that the "UK was worst in Europe". Nothing about England or Scotland, so quite why the constituent parts need to be split when other countries are reported together is beyond me.

    In fact, the list you have posted is identical to the one she posted, excluding San Marino. How does that shows her numbers are dodgy and your's aren't?
    Name me any other multiple countries rolled up into one.
    Flanders and Wallonia. They even have different languages.
    When were they last countries then.........
    The Flemish Region of Belgium (or Flanders) is a Dutch-speaking area in the country's north, and one of 3 Belgian regions
    Wallonia is the French-speaking region of southern Belgium
    Scotland is an English speaking region in the North of the United Kingdom.

    Wallonia has been part of Belgium since 1830, rather less time than Scotland has been part of the UK.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    Paid by whom? And how would the property value be determined?
    Link:
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rishi-sunak-eyes-tax-rises-in-march-budget-gmd3qpmkb

    (I don't sub to it anymore, but I know a man who does)
    It doesn't seem to answer either who would pay it, or how property value would be determined.

    I believe for instance in America the owner of the property pays the tax as opposed to the tenants.
    The owner is liable although they try to pass the cost along
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,939
    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    You could argue it's not fair how people who happen to live in London have experienced such a big bonus in terms of the value of their property over the last 40 years or so compared to elsewhere in the UK.

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    You could argue it's not fair how people who happen to live in London have experienced such a big bonus in terms of the value of their property over the last 40 years or so compared to elsewhere in the UK.
    I have to live in my house, how do I profit from something going up in paper value terms?
    you move house or suck it up
    Maybe move to Ayrshire where the property is cheaper but you may encounter some odd, unfriendly people! :lol:
    I resemble that remark!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,696
    Ken Livingstone on how the EHRC report is a conspiracy to undermine socialism with false allegations of antisemitism...

    https://twitter.com/derbychrisw/status/1350880572755873801?s=21
  • MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    Sometimes, though, you need to do what is right, rather than what is popular.

    And don't forget, this will be a boon to the retired, because it enables them (should they wish) to downsize without ending up paying a massive chunk of change in stamp duty.
    We have 4.5m homes owned by private landlords in this country, target that property at a higher rate. Taxing primary residences for wealth taxes knowing that they can't be worked for income is morally wrong, regardless of whatever economic or social benefits it might bring.
    The problem is that those private landlords are not all the same either in the services they are providing or the way in which they behave.

    For example, would you say that a landlord providing long term rented accommodation to someone as their main home should be treated in the same way for taxation purposes as one who is renting to students in a university town on what can only ever be a short term basis? It seems to me that the most likely result of increasing taxes on the latter sector would be to reduce the available amount of rented accommodation for students and so drive up costs. I have to say this is in my mind at the moment as, unlike when I was at university living in places that should have been condemned, I have been extremely impressed with the landlord of my daughters property.
  • Ken Livingstone on how the EHRC report is a conspiracy to undermine socialism with false allegations of antisemitism...

    https://twitter.com/derbychrisw/status/1350880572755873801?s=21

    When will he bring up Hitler?
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    One Tory strategist I know is off the belief the moment young people start becoming Tories is the moment they become homeowners.

    Don't mess with their homes.
    It's definitely true, I've seen it happen among loads of my friends. They all talked fluent lefty for years voted for Chaos with Ed in 2015, flirted with Jez in 2017 but in 2019 when the chips were down they all voted for Boris because, and I can quote one of them "he won't hound me out of my home with taxes". What the government should be doing is attacking the private rental sector with large capital taxes to force landlords to sell existing property, Osborne made a really good start on that, Rishi is flunking it at the moment by burdening owner occupiers with a tax that will inevitable rise over time as it will be seen as an easy source of cash by future governments.
    Though I do NOT agree with anti-Labour rant portion of above, you DO make a good point re: danger of taxes "seen as an easy source of cash by future goverments".

    Here in WA State (aka God's Country) despite our reputation for progressivism, our state tax structure is HIGHLY regressive, due to fact that we have no state income tax. Instead, state revenue comes mostly from property, sales taxes, license & other user fees. (In contrast, our Pacific Northwest neighbor Oregon has no sales tax, but does have state income tax.) In addition to being regressive, the WA State tax system is unstable, because while revenues can go up impressively during boom times, when recessions or worse roll around, revenues plummet at just the time that demands on state spending start rising.

    Anyway, one device that WA state legislators relied upon for years to generate revenue was car license tab fees. Which started out pretty cheap but were jacked up session after session, budget after budget. Until they reached the point that car owners really started to feel the pinch, especially people buying very expensive cars AND less affluent folks for whom car tabs were a BIG bite out of their earnings or fixed incomes.

    Upshot was that in 1999 an initiative campaign was launched with strong Republican backing to limit car tabs to $35. Besides launching the career of Tim Eyman the WA State Initiative King (now facing massive legal jeopardy in state court for subsequent frauds & related crimes both alleged and already proven).

    Voters approved this ballot measure, and after it was overturned by state supreme court, voters re-passed it, and state legislature enacted it on their own, at least until the next fiscal emergency. Created a constant issue for the GOP to bash the Democrats with.

    The voting pattern on this & subsequent ballot measures was interesting. From precinct returns was clear that, as expected, strongly Republican voters for whom anti-tax is a matra voted for capping car tab fees, while progressive, pro-tax Democrats voted against.

    But for voters more toward the middle, the dynamic was quite different. With higher-income voters tending to vote against the cap, on the grounds that it really wasn't that big of a deal (for them) and the state really did need the money. Whereas lower-income voters, even those inclined to support Democratic candidates, were strongly inclined to vote for the tab cap, on the grounds that it WAS a big deal (for them) and that they had NOT benefited as much as the high-rent crowd from economic boom times.
  • Ken Livingstone on how the EHRC report is a conspiracy to undermine socialism with false allegations of antisemitism...

    https://twitter.com/derbychrisw/status/1350880572755873801?s=21

    I love having a nosy at people's book shelves on these type of lockdown videos . Always get frustrated when I cannot read the titles!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    MaxPB said:

    Anyway, dinner beckons, fresh tagliatelle with a garlic, mushroom, pancetta and butter sauce topped with fresh parsley and a nice bottle of Nero d'Avola to go with it.

    Slow-cooked leg of lamb here.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    You could argue it's not fair how people who happen to live in London have experienced such a big bonus in terms of the value of their property over the last 40 years or so compared to elsewhere in the UK.

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    You could argue it's not fair how people who happen to live in London have experienced such a big bonus in terms of the value of their property over the last 40 years or so compared to elsewhere in the UK.
    I have to live in my house, how do I profit from something going up in paper value terms?
    you move house or suck it up
    Maybe move to Ayrshire where the property is cheaper but you may encounter some odd, unfriendly people! :lol:
    I resemble that remark!
    Although to be fair it was aimed at another poster who lives in the area :lol:
  • MaxPB said:

    Anyway, dinner beckons, fresh tagliatelle with a garlic, mushroom, pancetta and butter sauce topped with fresh parsley and a nice bottle of Nero d'Avola to go with it.

    I thought in Brexit Britain all such food had become unavailable?
  • Ken Livingstone on how the EHRC report is a conspiracy to undermine socialism with false allegations of antisemitism...

    https://twitter.com/derbychrisw/status/1350880572755873801?s=21

    I love having a nosy at people's book shelves on these type of lockdown videos . Always get frustrated when I cannot read the titles!
    London Poverty Maps and Past Masters (Beatles book?) are the only two I can make out..
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    MaxPB said:

    Anyway, dinner beckons, fresh tagliatelle with a garlic, mushroom, pancetta and butter sauce topped with fresh parsley and a nice bottle of Nero d'Avola to go with it.

    Very good!
  • Ken Livingstone on how the EHRC report is a conspiracy to undermine socialism with false allegations of antisemitism...

    https://twitter.com/derbychrisw/status/1350880572755873801?s=21

    I love having a nosy at people's book shelves on these type of lockdown videos . Always get frustrated when I cannot read the titles!
    London Poverty Maps and Past Masters (Beatles book?) are the only two I can make out..
    Didn't see Tony Blair's A Journey !
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    .

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    As I thought, Carlotta's dubious numbers from earlier were indeed dodgy...........only time she loves Scotland

    How exactly does that prove the numbers she posted were dodgy?
    She did not have UK at 7th and only used it as it did not split the countries, her hatred of Scotland ensured she could not show them down the park. If they had been highest in UK , she would have ensured she highlighted it big time.
    No, they had the UK at 6th simply because San Marino wasn't included. But the claim she was refuting was that the "UK was worst in Europe". Nothing about England or Scotland, so quite why the constituent parts need to be split when other countries are reported together is beyond me.

    In fact, the list you have posted is identical to the one she posted, excluding San Marino. How does that shows her numbers are dodgy and your's aren't?
    Name me any other multiple countries rolled up into one.
    The claim was regarding the UK's numbers, not those of the constituent parts. Much the same way we aren't looking at Bavaria's numbers, or Catalonia's.
    oh dear Rob you really are digging for Australia now, we are talking countries dear boy, you telling me you do not know the difference between a country and a region of a country. Poor attempt, just admit defeat and stop digging.
    But that's got nothing to do with the claim. The claim was that the UK had the highest death rate in Europe. Carlotta's (and your identical ranking) demonstrated that this was not the case. I fail to see how you have shown the numbers were dodgy.
    I just said her numbers were dodgy and they appear so , using UK as one block and excluding San Marino for two examples make it look better than it is
    They are not dodgy, in fact the numbers are from exactly the same source!
  • Ken Livingstone on how the EHRC report is a conspiracy to undermine socialism with false allegations of antisemitism...

    https://twitter.com/derbychrisw/status/1350880572755873801?s=21

    I love having a nosy at people's book shelves on these type of lockdown videos . Always get frustrated when I cannot read the titles!
    London Poverty Maps and Past Masters (Beatles book?) are the only two I can make out..
    And I think one called Mesopotamia
  • Ken Livingstone on how the EHRC report is a conspiracy to undermine socialism with false allegations of antisemitism...

    https://twitter.com/derbychrisw/status/1350880572755873801?s=21

    I love having a nosy at people's book shelves on these type of lockdown videos . Always get frustrated when I cannot read the titles!
    I presume lots of books relating to alternative histories of WW2....
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    As I thought, Carlotta's dubious numbers from earlier were indeed dodgy...........only time she loves Scotland

    How exactly does that prove the numbers she posted were dodgy?
    She did not have UK at 7th and only used it as it did not split the countries, her hatred of Scotland ensured she could not show them down the park. If they had been highest in UK , she would have ensured she highlighted it big time.
    No, they had the UK at 6th simply because San Marino wasn't included. But the claim she was refuting was that the "UK was worst in Europe". Nothing about England or Scotland, so quite why the constituent parts need to be split when other countries are reported together is beyond me.

    In fact, the list you have posted is identical to the one she posted, excluding San Marino. How does that shows her numbers are dodgy and your's aren't?
    Name me any other multiple countries rolled up into one.
    Flanders and Wallonia. They even have different languages.
    When were they last countries then.........
    The Flemish Region of Belgium (or Flanders) is a Dutch-speaking area in the country's north, and one of 3 Belgian regions
    Wallonia is the French-speaking region of southern Belgium
    Well most of the regions of Germany and Italy were independent countries far more recently than Scotland was.
  • Charles said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    Paid by whom? And how would the property value be determined?
    Link:
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rishi-sunak-eyes-tax-rises-in-march-budget-gmd3qpmkb

    (I don't sub to it anymore, but I know a man who does)
    It doesn't seem to answer either who would pay it, or how property value would be determined.

    I believe for instance in America the owner of the property pays the tax as opposed to the tenants.
    The owner is liable although they try to pass the cost along
    Speaking as a US renter, would have to say they are pretty dogonne good at it!

    One consideration for lower-rent rental properties, is NOT jacking up the tax bill too high, because it is the tenants who will end up paying the vigorish. Though reckon a sensible tax AND social policy tries to balance that out via tax credits and other offsets?
  • Ken Livingstone on how the EHRC report is a conspiracy to undermine socialism with false allegations of antisemitism...

    https://twitter.com/derbychrisw/status/1350880572755873801?s=21

    I love having a nosy at people's book shelves on these type of lockdown videos . Always get frustrated when I cannot read the titles!
    London Poverty Maps and Past Masters (Beatles book?) are the only two I can make out..
    Actually looks like it's Past Worlds
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/749890.Past_Worlds
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    kinabalu said:

    The Liverpool - Man Utd game is always hyped by the media but is pretty much always mediocre/shit.

    Two teams scared of losing to each other.

    especially with no fans - I like derby and big rival games but find this season no interest in them because of the lack of atmosphere. Its not as if the players are local born or really have any affinity to the clubs they play for anyway
    Yeah derbies have completely lost their venom. Can’t wait to get fans back again,
    I just cannot get into football without the fans. To me it loses far more than other sports.
    I think its because its a tribal game , a team game based on geography , the players dont really care or have affinity for clubs , to many they are just a high paying employer , bu the fans do care and hence without them it loses all its meaning
    I tend to agree, but aren’t all team games based on geography to some extent?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    It would hit a lot of elderly, asset-rich and cash poor in London certainly very hard.
    Then they can downsize if they want. Supply and demand.
    You'd need a sizeable implementation period before it could kick in. 3-5 years minimum. Allow people to redesign their lives without it causing craziness in the property market.
    Use the last purchase price if in the last 10 years with an annual CPI adjustment.

    If last purchase price more than 10 years ago have a 10 year phase in to a revaluation.

    Have a rebate / offset for stamp duty paid in last 10 years
  • kinabalu said:

    The Liverpool - Man Utd game is always hyped by the media but is pretty much always mediocre/shit.

    Two teams scared of losing to each other.

    especially with no fans - I like derby and big rival games but find this season no interest in them because of the lack of atmosphere. Its not as if the players are local born or really have any affinity to the clubs they play for anyway
    Yeah derbies have completely lost their venom. Can’t wait to get fans back again,
    I just cannot get into football without the fans. To me it loses far more than other sports.
    I think its because its a tribal game , a team game based on geography , the players dont really care or have affinity for clubs , to many they are just a high paying employer , bu the fans do care and hence without them it loses all its meaning
    I tend to agree, but aren’t all team games based on geography to some extent?
    https://twitter.com/mixedknuts/status/1350887965090852864?s=19
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380

    Ken Livingstone on how the EHRC report is a conspiracy to undermine socialism with false allegations of antisemitism...

    https://twitter.com/derbychrisw/status/1350880572755873801?s=21

    I love having a nosy at people's book shelves on these type of lockdown videos . Always get frustrated when I cannot read the titles!
    I presume lots of books relating to alternative histories of WW2....
    ...like The Churchill Factor?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,588
    Typical tweet at the moment regarding Phil Spector.

    https://twitter.com/iamdavidbeckett/status/1350849270073667588
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Pulpstar said:

    I've just done a rough calculation, my parents bought their house for 18K and would pay that amount in about 15 months under this new property tax.

    And we're in the desolate North.

    I suspect many in the South would be paying their purchase price within weeks under this new house tax.

    well isn't that fair then? had a big property gain and giving some of it back?
    Not really, over the last forty years, my parents have spent something like 500k on improving/extending the house, if not more.
    Your parents house was bought for 18k and is worth 3 million quid ?!
    I wish, last time I was valued it was something like £1.2 million in 2013.
    So about 1.7 million now according to that there nation wide.
  • Ken Livingstone on how the EHRC report is a conspiracy to undermine socialism with false allegations of antisemitism...

    https://twitter.com/derbychrisw/status/1350880572755873801?s=21

    I love having a nosy at people's book shelves on these type of lockdown videos . Always get frustrated when I cannot read the titles!
    London Poverty Maps and Past Masters (Beatles book?) are the only two I can make out..
    Actually looks like it's Past Worlds
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/749890.Past_Worlds
    He's also got The Complete Book Of World Facts, two atlas books (one Readers Digest, Times) and The Earth From The Air
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,241

    Ken Livingstone on how the EHRC report is a conspiracy to undermine socialism with false allegations of antisemitism...

    https://twitter.com/derbychrisw/status/1350880572755873801?s=21

    I love having a nosy at people's book shelves on these type of lockdown videos . Always get frustrated when I cannot read the titles!
    London Poverty Maps and Past Masters (Beatles book?) are the only two I can make out..
    Actually looks like it's Past Worlds
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/749890.Past_Worlds
    At least he hasn't put "Jewish Plot" in there afaics.

    Charles said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    Paid by whom? And how would the property value be determined?
    Link:
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rishi-sunak-eyes-tax-rises-in-march-budget-gmd3qpmkb

    (I don't sub to it anymore, but I know a man who does)
    It doesn't seem to answer either who would pay it, or how property value would be determined.

    I believe for instance in America the owner of the property pays the tax as opposed to the tenants.
    The owner is liable although they try to pass the cost along
    Speaking as a US renter, would have to say they are pretty dogonne good at it!

    One consideration for lower-rent rental properties, is NOT jacking up the tax bill too high, because it is the tenants who will end up paying the vigorish. Though reckon a sensible tax AND social policy tries to balance that out via tax credits and other offsets?
    Owner is already ultimately liable for CT, although further down on the list in the Act than the Occupier.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,939
    A flat percentage of e.g.0.48% is unrealistic due to the wide variation in house prices. However it would be manna from heaven for Mail and Express headline writers. “Labour controlled Blackburn Council charge 3% council tax whilst Conservative controlled Waverley charge 0.3%”
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    As I thought, Carlotta's dubious numbers from earlier were indeed dodgy...........only time she loves Scotland

    How exactly does that prove the numbers she posted were dodgy?
    She did not have UK at 7th and only used it as it did not split the countries, her hatred of Scotland ensured she could not show them down the park. If they had been highest in UK , she would have ensured she highlighted it big time.
    No, they had the UK at 6th simply because San Marino wasn't included. But the claim she was refuting was that the "UK was worst in Europe". Nothing about England or Scotland, so quite why the constituent parts need to be split when other countries are reported together is beyond me.

    In fact, the list you have posted is identical to the one she posted, excluding San Marino. How does that shows her numbers are dodgy and your's aren't?
    Name me any other multiple countries rolled up into one.
    Each German states is a "Land" which translates exactly into the same multiple meanings as "country" in English.
    Largest sub-unit of a nation state Eg. UK/Wales and Germany/Bavaria
    Another word for nation State E.g. Poland and Irland
    A rural area Eg. In the country and auf dem Land.
  • Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    You could argue it's not fair how people who happen to live in London have experienced such a big bonus in terms of the value of their property over the last 40 years or so compared to elsewhere in the UK.

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    You could argue it's not fair how people who happen to live in London have experienced such a big bonus in terms of the value of their property over the last 40 years or so compared to elsewhere in the UK.
    I have to live in my house, how do I profit from something going up in paper value terms?
    you move house or suck it up
    Maybe move to Ayrshire where the property is cheaper but you may encounter some odd, unfriendly people! :lol:
    I resemble that remark!
    When I eventually retire, I plan to move to Largs.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    edited January 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Typical tweet at the moment regarding Phil Spector.

    https://twitter.com/iamdavidbeckett/status/1350849270073667588

    They have changed it to "pop producer jailed for murder dies", which is a bit of an odd way of saying it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881

    MaxPB said:

    Anyway, dinner beckons, fresh tagliatelle with a garlic, mushroom, pancetta and butter sauce topped with fresh parsley and a nice bottle of Nero d'Avola to go with it.

    Slow-cooked leg of lamb here.
    Stovies, pickled beetroot and cold pheasant here.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,939

    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    You could argue it's not fair how people who happen to live in London have experienced such a big bonus in terms of the value of their property over the last 40 years or so compared to elsewhere in the UK.

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    You could argue it's not fair how people who happen to live in London have experienced such a big bonus in terms of the value of their property over the last 40 years or so compared to elsewhere in the UK.
    I have to live in my house, how do I profit from something going up in paper value terms?
    you move house or suck it up
    Maybe move to Ayrshire where the property is cheaper but you may encounter some odd, unfriendly people! :lol:
    I resemble that remark!
    When I eventually retire, I plan to move to Largs.
    You will bring the average age of the population down by 10 years!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,241

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    Sometimes, though, you need to do what is right, rather than what is popular.

    And don't forget, this will be a boon to the retired, because it enables them (should they wish) to downsize without ending up paying a massive chunk of change in stamp duty.
    We have 4.5m homes owned by private landlords in this country, target that property at a higher rate. Taxing primary residences for wealth taxes knowing that they can't be worked for income is morally wrong, regardless of whatever economic or social benefits it might bring.
    We need rent controls and to make it less attractive to be a private landlord
    The oldest mistake in the book.

    Reduce supply whilst demand is continued to be high, and you get a slum situation.

    Happened last time.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    Andy_JS said:

    Typical tweet at the moment regarding Phil Spector.

    https://twitter.com/iamdavidbeckett/status/1350849270073667588

    They have changed it to "pop producer jailed for murder dies", which is a bit of an odd way of saying it.
    "Pop producer and convicted murderer dies", maybe? Although that might suggest a joint obituary.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,210

    MaxPB said:

    Anyway, dinner beckons, fresh tagliatelle with a garlic, mushroom, pancetta and butter sauce topped with fresh parsley and a nice bottle of Nero d'Avola to go with it.

    Slow-cooked leg of lamb here.
    For me, bowl of chilli with crackers crumbled in. Like Lieutenant Columbo. And no booze. Banana milkshake.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Typical tweet at the moment regarding Phil Spector.

    https://twitter.com/iamdavidbeckett/status/1350849270073667588

    They have changed it to "pop producer jailed for murder dies", which is a bit of an odd way of saying it.
    Does it mention his very serious head injury in 1974 that almost certainly turned him into the gun waving loon he became?
  • Alistair said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Typical tweet at the moment regarding Phil Spector.

    https://twitter.com/iamdavidbeckett/status/1350849270073667588

    Osama Bin Laden, talented but flawed businessman, dies at home.
    Adolf Hitler, talented but flawed painter, dies at work.
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 682
    MaxPB said:

    Anyway, dinner beckons, fresh tagliatelle with a garlic, mushroom, pancetta and butter sauce topped with fresh parsley and a nice bottle of Nero d'Avola to go with it.

    Wot No Pineapple?!? ... :wink:

    And on the nosh front my pastry and meat gastronomic delights may expand to the Tories if this new property tax sees the light of day. Parting with almost £50K pa for our London and out of town homes may see me raise my voice a wee bit.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,360
    edited January 2021

    Alistair said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Typical tweet at the moment regarding Phil Spector.

    https://twitter.com/iamdavidbeckett/status/1350849270073667588

    Osama Bin Laden, talented but flawed businessman, dies at home.
    Adolf Hitler, talented but flawed painter, dies at work.
    Ghengis Khan, talented but flawed centre-left politician, dies on the job
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,866
    Wife at dinner time just now - "they're really trying to suck the fun out of living in this country aren't they".

    Will await my dad's reaction (working class Tory through and through, and a good gauge for how their core voters think IMO) in this evening's video call. I expect it to be extremely negative.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,360
    eristdoof said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    As I thought, Carlotta's dubious numbers from earlier were indeed dodgy...........only time she loves Scotland

    How exactly does that prove the numbers she posted were dodgy?
    She did not have UK at 7th and only used it as it did not split the countries, her hatred of Scotland ensured she could not show them down the park. If they had been highest in UK , she would have ensured she highlighted it big time.
    No, they had the UK at 6th simply because San Marino wasn't included. But the claim she was refuting was that the "UK was worst in Europe". Nothing about England or Scotland, so quite why the constituent parts need to be split when other countries are reported together is beyond me.

    In fact, the list you have posted is identical to the one she posted, excluding San Marino. How does that shows her numbers are dodgy and your's aren't?
    Name me any other multiple countries rolled up into one.
    Each German states is a "Land" which translates exactly into the same multiple meanings as "country" in English.
    Largest sub-unit of a nation state Eg. UK/Wales and Germany/Bavaria
    Another word for nation State E.g. Poland and Irland
    A rural area Eg. In the country and auf dem Land.
    Each of the German states were full-fledged, independent countries up to the later half of the 19th Cent.

    The German Empire kicked off in the Hall of Mirrors in 1870....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,866
    She raised a good point that this is probably the government preparing the ground for a value tax on non-primary residential property because the reaction to this is going to be so negative that hitting a few landlords instead of the whole country will be seen as a good compromise measure.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,360

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    Sometimes, though, you need to do what is right, rather than what is popular.

    And don't forget, this will be a boon to the retired, because it enables them (should they wish) to downsize without ending up paying a massive chunk of change in stamp duty.
    We have 4.5m homes owned by private landlords in this country, target that property at a higher rate. Taxing primary residences for wealth taxes knowing that they can't be worked for income is morally wrong, regardless of whatever economic or social benefits it might bring.
    The problem is that those private landlords are not all the same either in the services they are providing or the way in which they behave.

    For example, would you say that a landlord providing long term rented accommodation to someone as their main home should be treated in the same way for taxation purposes as one who is renting to students in a university town on what can only ever be a short term basis? It seems to me that the most likely result of increasing taxes on the latter sector would be to reduce the available amount of rented accommodation for students and so drive up costs. I have to say this is in my mind at the moment as, unlike when I was at university living in places that should have been condemned, I have been extremely impressed with the landlord of my daughters property.
    I am trying to remember the name of the lady who used to own pretty much all of the rentable accommodation in St Andrews.

    I wonder what happened to her property empire - she was pretty old, and that was 20 years ago...
  • eekeek Posts: 28,398
    MattW said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    Sometimes, though, you need to do what is right, rather than what is popular.

    And don't forget, this will be a boon to the retired, because it enables them (should they wish) to downsize without ending up paying a massive chunk of change in stamp duty.
    We have 4.5m homes owned by private landlords in this country, target that property at a higher rate. Taxing primary residences for wealth taxes knowing that they can't be worked for income is morally wrong, regardless of whatever economic or social benefits it might bring.
    We need rent controls and to make it less attractive to be a private landlord
    The oldest mistake in the book.

    Reduce supply whilst demand is continued to be high, and you get a slum situation.

    Happened last time.
    My focus would be on removing all tax allowances on property loans except for build to rent
  • Andy_JS said:

    Typical tweet at the moment regarding Phil Spector.

    https://twitter.com/iamdavidbeckett/status/1350849270073667588

    I want to watch Lana's 1985 movie Barbarian Queen
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7z1InsZynI
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    Andy_JS said:

    Typical tweet at the moment regarding Phil Spector.

    https://twitter.com/iamdavidbeckett/status/1350849270073667588

    They have changed it to "pop producer jailed for murder dies", which is a bit of an odd way of saying it.
    Does it mention his very serious head injury in 1974 that almost certainly turned him into the gun waving loon he became?
    Except that Ronnie Spector escaped his clutches in, er 1972, and did not try to get any assets or alimony from the divorce because she feared he would kill her. After all, he’d already bought a gold-plated coffin for her, which he said he’d display her in after killing her if she tried to escape him.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Good evening all. An interesting discussion. To summarise:

    Defund London Homeowners.

    A policy for the 21st Century Tory Party.
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729
    edited January 2021
    rpjs said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Typical tweet at the moment regarding Phil Spector.

    https://twitter.com/iamdavidbeckett/status/1350849270073667588

    They have changed it to "pop producer jailed for murder dies", which is a bit of an odd way of saying it.
    Does it mention his very serious head injury in 1974 that almost certainly turned him into the gun waving loon he became?
    Except that Ronnie Spector escaped his clutches in, er 1972, and did not try to get any assets or alimony from the divorce because she feared he would kill her. After all, he’d already bought a gold-plated coffin for her, which he said he’d display her in after killing her if she tried to escape him.
    He was certainly a horrible fucker to Ronnie well before his head injury, but the stories of him pointing his gun at people's heads (like Leonard Cohen, the Ramones and others) all seemed to start after his quite horrific head injury (took over 700 stitches to repair his head)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,360
    eek said:

    MattW said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    Sometimes, though, you need to do what is right, rather than what is popular.

    And don't forget, this will be a boon to the retired, because it enables them (should they wish) to downsize without ending up paying a massive chunk of change in stamp duty.
    We have 4.5m homes owned by private landlords in this country, target that property at a higher rate. Taxing primary residences for wealth taxes knowing that they can't be worked for income is morally wrong, regardless of whatever economic or social benefits it might bring.
    We need rent controls and to make it less attractive to be a private landlord
    The oldest mistake in the book.

    Reduce supply whilst demand is continued to be high, and you get a slum situation.

    Happened last time.
    My focus would be on removing all tax allowances on property loans except for build to rent
    If you want to ease the crisis of property prices in part of the UK... build a fuckton of houses.

    It's an answer that upsets all kinds of people. It is the only policy that will actually work.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,677
    edited January 2021
    MattW said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    Sometimes, though, you need to do what is right, rather than what is popular.

    And don't forget, this will be a boon to the retired, because it enables them (should they wish) to downsize without ending up paying a massive chunk of change in stamp duty.
    We have 4.5m homes owned by private landlords in this country, target that property at a higher rate. Taxing primary residences for wealth taxes knowing that they can't be worked for income is morally wrong, regardless of whatever economic or social benefits it might bring.
    We need rent controls and to make it less attractive to be a private landlord
    The oldest mistake in the book.

    Reduce supply whilst demand is continued to be high, and you get a slum situation.

    Happened last time.
    Reduce supply? Where are those houses going? They'll either be on the rental market or sold to owner-occupiers.

    If the latter, prices will fall, allowing many who now have to rent, to buy.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    MaxPB said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    It would hit a lot of elderly, asset-rich and cash poor in London certainly very hard.
    Then they can downsize if they want. Supply and demand.
    Like the Scottish fishermen who can move into another business if they want, hey? Supply and demand.

    If your purpose in posting here is to make the tory party look more attractive than it actually is, you do need to tone down the "fuck anybody who isn't me" vibe.

    I am not a London homeowner, in case you were wondering.
    That's not my purpose. My purpose is to debate politics, openly and honestly, with other politics nerds. I have no interest in reflecting the party and I don't take the party line, my opinions are my own.

    I see no reason why tenants in the Northwest should be compelled by taxation to pay 1% of their properties value in Council Tax while owner occupiers in London can get away with paying just 0.2% of theirs. Do you care to justify it?

    I'm not a fan of "progressive" taxation, but what we have now is positively regressive instead. A flat tax is fair, that people have gotten away without paying a flat tax for decades doesn't make introducing a flat tax unfair, it just means people haven't been paying their fair share.
    I'm thinking strategically too, or at least I think I am.

    I want broader property rights and capitalism defended long-term, and I simply see the current system as unsustainable.

    This is a classic conservative case of lead mild reform now or suffer radical change later.
    Then defend them, the idea of a property tax on primary residences is absolutely awful. Screw the landlords, not owner-occupiers, I've already paid ca. net 40% tax on my income.

    This would be sticking it to all the people in the country who have worked hard and saved to own their own homes and telling us that the Tories aren't on our side, confirming what many of us already believe at the moment.
    You're only getting screwed if you've been getting away with paying a much tinier percentage on bills than anyone else is. Why should taxes be so regressive?

    Why is it acceptable to have a 0.8% tax in the North and a 0.2% tax in the South? Why shouldn't they be flat?
    Because local taxes should be about local services. Redistribution is a matter for national policy

    Because London house prices are too high not taxes too low

    Because a percentage based tax is NOT flat by definition.
  • Good evening all. An interesting discussion. To summarise:

    Defund London Homeowners.

    A policy for the 21st Century Tory Party.

    I've also had an interesting time catching up. The problem as I see it is that far too many people are going to end up poorer with literally any major reform to something that needs major reform.

    Which is why it just rolls along year after year getting increasingly silly.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Donald Trump has told associates he wants his small donors to give $2 billion for the grandest and most expensive presidential library ever built.

    I dread to think what books the ugly golden turd of a building would contain.

    Edit - actually given what a grifter he is, probably no books at all.

    Probably quite small

    The consultancy fees paid to the Trump Organisation for design services would be a marvel
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited January 2021
    On topic (because no-one else is)...

    The Brexit situation is bad, worse than people think it is, and likely to get worse again before it gets better. The big known unknown was how much the new barriers to trade would affect imports and exports to and from the European Union As it turns out, they are in a state of collapse, with big shipping companies refusing to deal with the UK until people can get their paperwork sorted out and with lorries stuck all over the place.

    There is a degree of "teething troubles" in the sense that people weren't prepared for the Tsunami of red tape. Eventually some, but by no means all, businesses will get on top of the bureaucracy, accept it as a new cost of business, and get on with importing and exporting. Others will give up with consequent losses of business and people's jobs.

    There is no point crying over spilt milk - Brexit is done. Equally you can't mop it up unless you acknowledge you spilt it in the first place. The focus now should be on salvaging what we we can of our European business that makes up half our trade. I don't hold out much hope. No-one in politics is in damage limitation mode. Indeed Rishi Sunak is talking about bonfire of red tape, again. He should be trying to make the huge amounts of red tape that he was jointly responsible for burdening business with, kind of work.

    London has seen a Covid-related flight to the suburbs. Meanwhile foreigners have gone home and probably won't return in the same numbers as London loses its international importance post-Brexit. Maybe this is OK. London becomes more of another capital city and less of the pre-eminent world city it was before.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    FF43 said:

    On topic (because no-one else is)...

    The Brexit situation is bad, worse than people think it is, and likely to get worse again before it gets better. The big known unknown was how much the new barriers to trade would affect imports and exports to and from the European Union As it turns out, they are in a state of collapse, with big shipping companies refusing to deal with the UK until people can get their paperwork sorted out and with lorries stuck all over the place.

    There is a degree of "teething troubles" in the sense that people weren't prepared for the Tsunami of red tape. Eventually some, but by no means all, businesses will get on top of the bureaucracy, accept it as a new cost of business, and get on with importing and exporting. Others will give up with consequent losses of business and people's jobs.

    There is no point crying over spilt milk - Brexit is done. Equally you can't mop it up unless you acknowledge you spilt it in the first place. The focus now should be on salvaging what we we can of our European business that makes up half our trade. I don't hold out much hope. No-one in politics is in damage limitation mode. Indeed Rishi Sunak is talking about bonfire of red tape, again. He should be trying to make the huge amounts of red tape that he was jointly responsible for burdening business with, kind of work.

    London has seen a Covid-related flight to the suburbs. Meanwhile foreigners have gone home and probably won't return in the same numbers as London loses its international importance post-Brexit. Maybe this is OK. London becomes more of another capital city and less of the pre-eminent world city it was before.

    Hmm. My forecast is London will bounce back.

    Because London.
  • FF43 said:

    On topic (because no-one else is)...

    The Brexit situation is bad, worse than people think it is, and likely to get worse again before it gets better. The big known unknown was how much the new barriers to trade would affect imports and exports to and from the European Union As it turns out, they are in a state of collapse, with big shipping companies refusing to deal with the UK until people can get their paperwork sorted out and with lorries stuck all over the place.

    There is a degree of "teething troubles" in the sense that people weren't prepared for the Tsunami of red tape. Eventually some, but by no means all, businesses will get on top of the bureaucracy, accept it as a new cost of business, and get on with importing and exporting. Others will give up with consequent losses of business and people's jobs.

    There is no point crying over spilt milk - Brexit is done. Equally you can't mop it up unless you acknowledge you spilt it in the first place. The focus now should be on salvaging what we we can of our European business that makes up half our trade. I don't hold out much hope. No-one in politics is in damage limitation mode. Indeed Rishi Sunak is talking about bonfire of red tape, again. He should be trying to make the huge amounts of red tape that he was jointly responsible for burdening business with, kind of work.

    London has seen a Covid-related flight to the suburbs. Meanwhile foreigners have gone home and probably won't return in the same numbers as London loses its international importance post-Brexit. Maybe this is OK. London becomes more of another capital city and less of the pre-eminent world city it was before.

    The third paragraph is the killer. We aren't going to admit that the milk was deliberately poured down the drain. Sunak can be ordered to go after red tape, because Tory governments remove red tape. Of course the red tape that needs to be cut can't be cut, so instead they will cut workers protections and safety.

    As for London, it is a global city, It will be fine. Its the smaller cities they need to be worrying about. But they won't be.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    FF43 said:

    On topic (because no-one else is)...

    The Brexit situation is bad, worse than people think it is, and likely to get worse again before it gets better. The big known unknown was how much the new barriers to trade would affect imports and exports to and from the European Union As it turns out, they are in a state of collapse, with big shipping companies refusing to deal with the UK until people can get their paperwork sorted out and with lorries stuck all over the place.

    There is a degree of "teething troubles" in the sense that people weren't prepared for the Tsunami of red tape. Eventually some, but by no means all, businesses will get on top of the bureaucracy, accept it as a new cost of business, and get on with importing and exporting. Others will give up with consequent losses of business and people's jobs.

    There is no point crying over spilt milk - Brexit is done. Equally you can't mop it up unless you acknowledge you spilt it in the first place. The focus now should be on salvaging what we we can of our European business that makes up half our trade. I don't hold out much hope. No-one in politics is in damage limitation mode. Indeed Rishi Sunak is talking about bonfire of red tape, again. He should be trying to make the huge amounts of red tape that he was jointly responsible for burdening business with, kind of work.

    London has seen a Covid-related flight to the suburbs. Meanwhile foreigners have gone home and probably won't return in the same numbers as London loses its international importance post-Brexit. Maybe this is OK. London becomes more of another capital city and less of the pre-eminent world city it was before.

    Hmm. My forecast is London will bounce back.

    Because London.
    It will bounce back from Covid, like lots of other places. But I suspect it won't be the same as before. People aren't by and large in London because they enjoy it. It's because they have some compelling reason to be there. Those reasons are somewhat fading away.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    It would hit a lot of elderly, asset-rich and cash poor in London certainly very hard.
    Then they can downsize if they want. Supply and demand.
    Like the Scottish fishermen who can move into another business if they want, hey? Supply and demand.

    If your purpose in posting here is to make the tory party look more attractive than it actually is, you do need to tone down the "fuck anybody who isn't me" vibe.

    I am not a London homeowner, in case you were wondering.
    That's not my purpose. My purpose is to debate politics, openly and honestly, with other politics nerds. I have no interest in reflecting the party and I don't take the party line, my opinions are my own.

    I see no reason why tenants in the Northwest should be compelled by taxation to pay 1% of their properties value in Council Tax while owner occupiers in London can get away with paying just 0.2% of theirs. Do you care to justify it?

    I'm not a fan of "progressive" taxation, but what we have now is positively regressive instead. A flat tax is fair, that people have gotten away without paying a flat tax for decades doesn't make introducing a flat tax unfair, it just means people haven't been paying their fair share.
    I'm thinking strategically too, or at least I think I am.

    I want broader property rights and capitalism defended long-term, and I simply see the current system as unsustainable.

    This is a classic conservative case of lead mild reform now or suffer radical change later.
    Reason 1 of many why the replacement of Council tax is very unlikely to happen.

    It puts safe Tory seats like Bmth West and Bmth East in play. Electoral suicide. Boris simply won't let it happen.

    There might be some tinkering around the edges, but an asset tax that includes the principal home of individuals is morally questionable, and electorally disasterous.
    What do you think of adding extra council tax bands, Band I and Band J?
    I'd rather that govt stop spaffing money up the wall and talk about tax cuts, rather than rises.

    Grow the economy, increase the pie. That is the Conservative way.
    Tax rises are coming one way or another. The size of the hole we're in is ginormous.
    Declinist....
    Objective number one for me, as a Conservative, is a stable and content society. This is so the status quo is broadly maintained, and the economy can continue to grow and we can be prosperous long-term.

    The generational gap in politics and wealth is vast, and we must address it. This overrides my proclivity for no wealth or land taxes whatsoever in principle. I think the facts have changed.

    Young people have very little asset wealth or savings, whilst older people have a huge amount. It's all in assets and property. We need to find a way of more fairly taxing the nation's wealth base, just a tad more, and cutting taxes on income for working people. I'd even revisit going back to child trust accounts so that those without wealthy parents get, say, £10k to help them start out when they hit 18 or 19.

    Otherwise, I fear we'll get full-blown socialism one day, and a completely fragmented society.
    Your argument in bold is true, on average, but people like you, and me, and MaxPB are probably a few exceptions I can immediately think of - so is it true for Tory voters? I am not so sure.

    Many of my generation are already wealthier than their parents in asset terms (whilst at the same time many are not, and I'll grant you the variation seems much bigger than it did for our parents) - but often stretched. They also have far, far greater outgoings.

    Those who are stretched will often have worked hard, foregone luxuries, to secure a home. Any party that screws homeowners as a pure function of the value of their home, more of which is likely to be mortgaged amongst younger voters, is not going to be a party that forms the government.

    I understand where you're coming from, but think the key is going to be the tax recoup from boomer estates. By simply failing to increase the threshold on IHT the govt are going to clean up through fiscal drag.

    Homeowners won't be screwed, they will just have a small percentage attached. If it was a large percentage then fair enough, but we're talking a very small percentage.

    Homeowners here can pay 0.8% to 1% currently but you find it unthinkable that 0.48% could be found in the future elsewhere? Why?
    How many times do I need to make this point? Because people's capacity to pay is not a function of the value of their property. Its fine and dandy talking in abstract economic terms in %, but not when it would fundamentally upturn the apple cart of our current economic settlement.

    I don't get generate profits from my business as a % of the value of property. Nor to those who get paid PAYE get paid as a % of their property value. And this is before we get into the logistics of valuation, which are often the downfall of socialist asset taxation.

    Introducing this policy would lead to immediate recession (if not depression), a house price collapse and a Labour government. Well done for implementing the triple whammy of things you don't want to do immediately after a pandemic which has screwed government finances....
    Ballpark a 0.5% annual tax will result in a 10-15% fall in house prices.

    This will be offset by elimination of stamp duty but it only gets up to that for the richest (paying 12%)

    Ergo the rich benefit from this tax change 🤔
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    On topic (because no-one else is)...

    The Brexit situation is bad, worse than people think it is, and likely to get worse again before it gets better. The big known unknown was how much the new barriers to trade would affect imports and exports to and from the European Union As it turns out, they are in a state of collapse, with big shipping companies refusing to deal with the UK until people can get their paperwork sorted out and with lorries stuck all over the place.

    There is a degree of "teething troubles" in the sense that people weren't prepared for the Tsunami of red tape. Eventually some, but by no means all, businesses will get on top of the bureaucracy, accept it as a new cost of business, and get on with importing and exporting. Others will give up with consequent losses of business and people's jobs.

    There is no point crying over spilt milk - Brexit is done. Equally you can't mop it up unless you acknowledge you spilt it in the first place. The focus now should be on salvaging what we we can of our European business that makes up half our trade. I don't hold out much hope. No-one in politics is in damage limitation mode. Indeed Rishi Sunak is talking about bonfire of red tape, again. He should be trying to make the huge amounts of red tape that he was jointly responsible for burdening business with, kind of work.

    London has seen a Covid-related flight to the suburbs. Meanwhile foreigners have gone home and probably won't return in the same numbers as London loses its international importance post-Brexit. Maybe this is OK. London becomes more of another capital city and less of the pre-eminent world city it was before.

    Hmm. My forecast is London will bounce back.

    Because London.
    It will bounce back from Covid, like lots of other places. But I suspect it won't be the same as before. People aren't by and large in London because they enjoy it. It's because they have some compelling reason to be there. Those reasons are somewhat fading away.
    We’ll see.

    Think you are wrong about people not enjoying it, although you will find lots of kindred spirits on PB.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,939

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    The worst Tory general election campaign in living memory? The one where Theresa May became the house snatcher.

    Why was Mrs Thatcher really ousted? Tory MPs had angry constituents that were massively worse off thanks to the changes in the rates when the community charge/poll tax came in and they needed a change, which Mrs T wasn't going to give.

    Brief lesson, Tory PMs/Leaders who starts messing with council taxes/property taxes have unhappy endings.

    It is, IMO, the strongest motivating factor for Tory inclined voters. Don't fuck with people's homes.
    Sometimes, though, you need to do what is right, rather than what is popular.

    And don't forget, this will be a boon to the retired, because it enables them (should they wish) to downsize without ending up paying a massive chunk of change in stamp duty.
    We have 4.5m homes owned by private landlords in this country, target that property at a higher rate. Taxing primary residences for wealth taxes knowing that they can't be worked for income is morally wrong, regardless of whatever economic or social benefits it might bring.
    The problem is that those private landlords are not all the same either in the services they are providing or the way in which they behave.

    For example, would you say that a landlord providing long term rented accommodation to someone as their main home should be treated in the same way for taxation purposes as one who is renting to students in a university town on what can only ever be a short term basis? It seems to me that the most likely result of increasing taxes on the latter sector would be to reduce the available amount of rented accommodation for students and so drive up costs. I have to say this is in my mind at the moment as, unlike when I was at university living in places that should have been condemned, I have been extremely impressed with the landlord of my daughters property.
    I am trying to remember the name of the lady who used to own pretty much all of the rentable accommodation in St Andrews.

    I wonder what happened to her property empire - she was pretty old, and that was 20 years ago...
    Mrs McAirbnb.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    On topic (because no-one else is)...

    The Brexit situation is bad, worse than people think it is, and likely to get worse again before it gets better. The big known unknown was how much the new barriers to trade would affect imports and exports to and from the European Union As it turns out, they are in a state of collapse, with big shipping companies refusing to deal with the UK until people can get their paperwork sorted out and with lorries stuck all over the place.

    There is a degree of "teething troubles" in the sense that people weren't prepared for the Tsunami of red tape. Eventually some, but by no means all, businesses will get on top of the bureaucracy, accept it as a new cost of business, and get on with importing and exporting. Others will give up with consequent losses of business and people's jobs.

    There is no point crying over spilt milk - Brexit is done. Equally you can't mop it up unless you acknowledge you spilt it in the first place. The focus now should be on salvaging what we we can of our European business that makes up half our trade. I don't hold out much hope. No-one in politics is in damage limitation mode. Indeed Rishi Sunak is talking about bonfire of red tape, again. He should be trying to make the huge amounts of red tape that he was jointly responsible for burdening business with, kind of work.

    London has seen a Covid-related flight to the suburbs. Meanwhile foreigners have gone home and probably won't return in the same numbers as London loses its international importance post-Brexit. Maybe this is OK. London becomes more of another capital city and less of the pre-eminent world city it was before.

    Hmm. My forecast is London will bounce back.

    Because London.
    It will bounce back from Covid, like lots of other places. But I suspect it won't be the same as before. People aren't by and large in London because they enjoy it. It's because they have some compelling reason to be there. Those reasons are somewhat fading away.
    More than 20 years ago I had a really bad car crash, lucky not to die. It happened in part because I was driving too fast and was too stressed at the time. In hospital over Christmas and New Year I decided that this wasn't going to happen again. For the first next few months I tried to remember this. By June, however, things were back to exactly the same way.

    So it will be with London. By the end of this year it will be like Covid never happened.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    I'm betting on the tories winning big next time. It brings me no pleasure but they will.

    Brexit is fine. A few hiccups* but basically it has gone far more smoothly than I expected so far. And our stunning vaccination success will see covid largely eliminated from the UK by the autumn with our citizens free to travel the world.

    Boris will take the credit.


    * If Dura Ace is around, yes I prefer the American version. Hiccough just looks silly.

    I'm betting on the tories winning big next time. It brings me no pleasure but they will.

    Brexit is fine. A few hiccups* but basically it has gone far more smoothly than I expected so far. And our stunning vaccination success will see covid largely eliminated from the UK by the autumn with our citizens free to travel the world.

    Boris will take the credit.


    * If Dura Ace is around, yes I prefer the American version. Hiccough just looks silly.

    I suspect that prediction will prove as accurate as the confident assertion that Biden would definitely win Florida - made a few days prior to last November's election. Churchill was not exactly rewarded in 1945 in the aftermath of Victory in Europe . Why should voters be grateful to Johnson when many of the deaths during this pandemic can be laid at his door as a result of his incompetence?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited January 2021

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    On topic (because no-one else is)...

    The Brexit situation is bad, worse than people think it is, and likely to get worse again before it gets better. The big known unknown was how much the new barriers to trade would affect imports and exports to and from the European Union As it turns out, they are in a state of collapse, with big shipping companies refusing to deal with the UK until people can get their paperwork sorted out and with lorries stuck all over the place.

    There is a degree of "teething troubles" in the sense that people weren't prepared for the Tsunami of red tape. Eventually some, but by no means all, businesses will get on top of the bureaucracy, accept it as a new cost of business, and get on with importing and exporting. Others will give up with consequent losses of business and people's jobs.

    There is no point crying over spilt milk - Brexit is done. Equally you can't mop it up unless you acknowledge you spilt it in the first place. The focus now should be on salvaging what we we can of our European business that makes up half our trade. I don't hold out much hope. No-one in politics is in damage limitation mode. Indeed Rishi Sunak is talking about bonfire of red tape, again. He should be trying to make the huge amounts of red tape that he was jointly responsible for burdening business with, kind of work.

    London has seen a Covid-related flight to the suburbs. Meanwhile foreigners have gone home and probably won't return in the same numbers as London loses its international importance post-Brexit. Maybe this is OK. London becomes more of another capital city and less of the pre-eminent world city it was before.

    Hmm. My forecast is London will bounce back.

    Because London.
    It will bounce back from Covid, like lots of other places. But I suspect it won't be the same as before. People aren't by and large in London because they enjoy it. It's because they have some compelling reason to be there. Those reasons are somewhat fading away.
    We’ll see.

    Think you are wrong about people not enjoying it, although you will find lots of kindred spirits on PB.
    I don't think it's a case of whether you enjoy living in London or not. Point is, it's an expensive and inconvenient city to live in. Most people are there for specific reasons of their job. This is somewhat evidenced by the flight out when lockdown meant you no longer need to be there. Reasons for being in London are likely to diminish. Not go away. It will remain, by far, the most important city in the UK.
  • Charles said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MaxPB said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting.

    According to the Sunday Times the Treasury is investigating scrapping stamp duty and council tax and replacing these with a simple annual tax of 0.48% of a property's value.

    That's a tax on Londoners. If they do it the Tory party will lose my vote for a very, very long time.
    It would hit a lot of elderly, asset-rich and cash poor in London certainly very hard.
    Then they can downsize if they want. Supply and demand.
    Like the Scottish fishermen who can move into another business if they want, hey? Supply and demand.

    If your purpose in posting here is to make the tory party look more attractive than it actually is, you do need to tone down the "fuck anybody who isn't me" vibe.

    I am not a London homeowner, in case you were wondering.
    That's not my purpose. My purpose is to debate politics, openly and honestly, with other politics nerds. I have no interest in reflecting the party and I don't take the party line, my opinions are my own.

    I see no reason why tenants in the Northwest should be compelled by taxation to pay 1% of their properties value in Council Tax while owner occupiers in London can get away with paying just 0.2% of theirs. Do you care to justify it?

    I'm not a fan of "progressive" taxation, but what we have now is positively regressive instead. A flat tax is fair, that people have gotten away without paying a flat tax for decades doesn't make introducing a flat tax unfair, it just means people haven't been paying their fair share.
    I'm thinking strategically too, or at least I think I am.

    I want broader property rights and capitalism defended long-term, and I simply see the current system as unsustainable.

    This is a classic conservative case of lead mild reform now or suffer radical change later.
    Reason 1 of many why the replacement of Council tax is very unlikely to happen.

    It puts safe Tory seats like Bmth West and Bmth East in play. Electoral suicide. Boris simply won't let it happen.

    There might be some tinkering around the edges, but an asset tax that includes the principal home of individuals is morally questionable, and electorally disasterous.
    What do you think of adding extra council tax bands, Band I and Band J?
    I'd rather that govt stop spaffing money up the wall and talk about tax cuts, rather than rises.

    Grow the economy, increase the pie. That is the Conservative way.
    Tax rises are coming one way or another. The size of the hole we're in is ginormous.
    Declinist....
    Objective number one for me, as a Conservative, is a stable and content society. This is so the status quo is broadly maintained, and the economy can continue to grow and we can be prosperous long-term.

    The generational gap in politics and wealth is vast, and we must address it. This overrides my proclivity for no wealth or land taxes whatsoever in principle. I think the facts have changed.

    Young people have very little asset wealth or savings, whilst older people have a huge amount. It's all in assets and property. We need to find a way of more fairly taxing the nation's wealth base, just a tad more, and cutting taxes on income for working people. I'd even revisit going back to child trust accounts so that those without wealthy parents get, say, £10k to help them start out when they hit 18 or 19.

    Otherwise, I fear we'll get full-blown socialism one day, and a completely fragmented society.
    Your argument in bold is true, on average, but people like you, and me, and MaxPB are probably a few exceptions I can immediately think of - so is it true for Tory voters? I am not so sure.

    Many of my generation are already wealthier than their parents in asset terms (whilst at the same time many are not, and I'll grant you the variation seems much bigger than it did for our parents) - but often stretched. They also have far, far greater outgoings.

    Those who are stretched will often have worked hard, foregone luxuries, to secure a home. Any party that screws homeowners as a pure function of the value of their home, more of which is likely to be mortgaged amongst younger voters, is not going to be a party that forms the government.

    I understand where you're coming from, but think the key is going to be the tax recoup from boomer estates. By simply failing to increase the threshold on IHT the govt are going to clean up through fiscal drag.

    Homeowners won't be screwed, they will just have a small percentage attached. If it was a large percentage then fair enough, but we're talking a very small percentage.

    Homeowners here can pay 0.8% to 1% currently but you find it unthinkable that 0.48% could be found in the future elsewhere? Why?
    How many times do I need to make this point? Because people's capacity to pay is not a function of the value of their property. Its fine and dandy talking in abstract economic terms in %, but not when it would fundamentally upturn the apple cart of our current economic settlement.

    I don't get generate profits from my business as a % of the value of property. Nor to those who get paid PAYE get paid as a % of their property value. And this is before we get into the logistics of valuation, which are often the downfall of socialist asset taxation.

    Introducing this policy would lead to immediate recession (if not depression), a house price collapse and a Labour government. Well done for implementing the triple whammy of things you don't want to do immediately after a pandemic which has screwed government finances....
    Ballpark a 0.5% annual tax will result in a 10-15% fall in house prices.

    This will be offset by elimination of stamp duty but it only gets up to that for the richest (paying 12%)

    Ergo the rich benefit from this tax change 🤔
    So anyone saving up to buy a house no longer needs to pay Council Tax, doesn't pay SDLT and needs a 10% smaller deposit? Sounds like a win/win/win. That sounds too good to be true.
This discussion has been closed.