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The legal effort by the Dominion voting machine firm is starting to have a big impact – politicalbet

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited January 15 in General
The legal effort by the Dominion voting machine firm is starting to have a big impact – politicalbetting.com

Statement from Dominion: "Platforms like American Thinker have helped amplify malicious lies about Dominion. … We are continuing to take steps to restore both our good name and the public's faith in elections by holding those responsible to account." pic.twitter.com/YwYH1GIBNm

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,965
    edited January 15
    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 590
    First....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,481
    Watch Newsnight Now. OMFG
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,965
    Leon said:

    Watch Newsnight Now. OMFG

    Disaster porn? Or are they prattling on about how crap the UK vaccination programme is again?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 62,950
    edited January 15
    Never thought I'd be in the position of defending voting machine manufacturers, being a pencil and paper man all the way.

    There were some truly reckless claims after November, and so many people who must have known better not caring because it was for their own side, and hyping mere claims as proof of a problem. I hope we never get to that point here when it comes to fundamentals of our democracy. If you cannot trust the votes are counted, if you cannot trust losers will concede, things get dangerous.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 62,950
    Repeat

    Doesn't really seem like an apology cuts it when you've been so knowingly false.

    The reference to 9 journalistic principles is interesting. Is that a standard number of accepted journalistic principles, or are there more but they've only abandoned 9?
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 1,378
    For some reason I imagine that Trump's apology will look somewhat similar to the Father Jack "I'm soooo sooooo sorrrrrreeeee" sarky apology.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 25,698
    I fear that this may not be real but I wish it was.



  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 2,828
    FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:



    No, you really CAN compare Covid to WW1. Covid has caused, tangentially, the crucial surge of China as supreme power, over the USA. It has diminished the UK population by an estimated 1.3m, in a year. It will kill millions around the world (and it is not over yet). It is toppling governments across the planet. It is causing economic slumps BIGGER than those experienced in WW1, or indeed WW2

    It is epochal. It could forever change the way we live, as commuters and workers. It is traumatising billions of people.

    It is, also, everywhere, in a way that even the Great War wasn't. It is ravaging South Africa, Peru, India and Brazil. It was culpable in the Storming of the Capitol. Everyone around the planet will remember it for the rest of their lives.

    World War is, sadly, a very apt comparison.

    I'm sorry but wrong again.

    First, the rise of China - it was happening anyway. Has it been accelerated by Trump's disastrous response to Covid? Maybe but the big change Covid has brought is the defeat of Trump in the 2020 election. That will have bigger impacts so I'll accept tangentially but no more.

    Second, can you evidence the claim the UK population has been reduced by 1.3 million in a year - Covid has taken 100,000 lives at most.

    Third - "toppling Governments across the planet". Really? Trump is on his way out, yes but many other incumbent Governments have done well out of Covid and have strengthened their positions.

    Fourth - "economic slumps" - well, yes, to a point but the recovery will likely be pretty dramatic and while there is going to be a lot of suffering, don't forget a lot of middle-class home-based office workers have carried on being paid and will have money to spend this year. One might argue the impacts of Brexit need to be factored in to this as well.

    Fifth - yes, it could well change how we live (I think I said that). I think I also said the mental health impacts weren't being adequately addressed so thanks for agreeing with me - it's always welcome to see the penny dropping.

    Sixth - I'd also argue the impact of WW1 was felt far beyond the battle fronts and the combatants. Neither Australia nor New Zealand saw war on their shores but they remember its effects in the annual ANZAC day celebration. There were military losses in South Africa and India in WW1 as well.

    Seventh - will it be remembered? I remember last spring one of the now banned posters putting up some numbers on the Hong Kong Flu of 1968-69 which killed up to 4 million globally and claiming life didn't stop and no one got locked down because of it.

    I'd argue Covid has shown the power of human ingenuity - within barely a year of the outbreak we have a number of vaccines out there being administered. There is very little human beings cannot achieve once we set our minds to it. That's the positive I take out of this not the achievements of one Government or one country.
    Ludicrous. I will address just one point

    "Up to 1.3m may have left in past 12 months, according to research that questions official data"

    https://www.ft.com/content/def33cfe-45c7-4323-bd08-d4fc42051f09
    I love it:

    "Up to"

    "may"

    "research that questions official data".

    was the estimate not by the ons?

    and as we dont actually have an idea how many people are here in the first place or how many leave its about as official as its ever going to get.

    Let us remember that supermarkets estimate our population as 10 million higher than official estimates based on how much they sell and our official estimates are based upon a guy with a clipboard based in a couple of places asking people where they come from or and if they are coming to stay.....what could possibly go wrong
    That last point is not really true - or more accurately is a single comment taken rather out of context.

    A supermarket (Asda, I think) was engaged in buying another. The Competition Authority said it was worried about market concentration in the grocery business, and they responded that they hadn't really gained market share from small grocers and that the market might be larger due to there being lots more people in the UK.

    Independent grocers responses to the inquiry were that this was simply untrue, and that the predatory pricing practices of the big supermarkets had led to them losing market share.

    If there really were 15% more people in the UK than people think, then we'd see it in lots of ways - VAT receipts would be the most obvious, but you could add things like school and hospital usage.
    Think of it the other way round.

    Last year, I visited a house - was in the market for a property. A nice road in a leafy suburb. Arrived at the place - a god awful tip.

    My suspicions were realised when the genial owner turned out to be the land lord. Slum landlord. Every room had multiple beds in it. Probably 10 people in a 4 bed house.

    How many of them do you think were living in anything other than the cash economy?
    Of course that happens.

    And I'm sure lots of those people aren't counted.

    But 10 million people is a lot of people. It's around 17 or 18% of working age adults. One-in-six adults across the UK is not an uncounted migrant living in slum accommodation.
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:



    No, you really CAN compare Covid to WW1. Covid has caused, tangentially, the crucial surge of China as supreme power, over the USA. It has diminished the UK population by an estimated 1.3m, in a year. It will kill millions around the world (and it is not over yet). It is toppling governments across the planet. It is causing economic slumps BIGGER than those experienced in WW1, or indeed WW2

    It is epochal. It could forever change the way we live, as commuters and workers. It is traumatising billions of people.

    It is, also, everywhere, in a way that even the Great War wasn't. It is ravaging South Africa, Peru, India and Brazil. It was culpable in the Storming of the Capitol. Everyone around the planet will remember it for the rest of their lives.

    World War is, sadly, a very apt comparison.

    I'm sorry but wrong again.

    First, the rise of China - it was happening anyway. Has it been accelerated by Trump's disastrous response to Covid? Maybe but the big change Covid has brought is the defeat of Trump in the 2020 election. That will have bigger impacts so I'll accept tangentially but no more.

    Second, can you evidence the claim the UK population has been reduced by 1.3 million in a year - Covid has taken 100,000 lives at most.

    Third - "toppling Governments across the planet". Really? Trump is on his way out, yes but many other incumbent Governments have done well out of Covid and have strengthened their positions.

    Fourth - "economic slumps" - well, yes, to a point but the recovery will likely be pretty dramatic and while there is going to be a lot of suffering, don't forget a lot of middle-class home-based office workers have carried on being paid and will have money to spend this year. One might argue the impacts of Brexit need to be factored in to this as well.

    Fifth - yes, it could well change how we live (I think I said that). I think I also said the mental health impacts weren't being adequately addressed so thanks for agreeing with me - it's always welcome to see the penny dropping.

    Sixth - I'd also argue the impact of WW1 was felt far beyond the battle fronts and the combatants. Neither Australia nor New Zealand saw war on their shores but they remember its effects in the annual ANZAC day celebration. There were military losses in South Africa and India in WW1 as well.

    Seventh - will it be remembered? I remember last spring one of the now banned posters putting up some numbers on the Hong Kong Flu of 1968-69 which killed up to 4 million globally and claiming life didn't stop and no one got locked down because of it.

    I'd argue Covid has shown the power of human ingenuity - within barely a year of the outbreak we have a number of vaccines out there being administered. There is very little human beings cannot achieve once we set our minds to it. That's the positive I take out of this not the achievements of one Government or one country.
    Ludicrous. I will address just one point

    "Up to 1.3m may have left in past 12 months, according to research that questions official data"

    https://www.ft.com/content/def33cfe-45c7-4323-bd08-d4fc42051f09
    I love it:

    "Up to"

    "may"

    "research that questions official data".

    was the estimate not by the ons?

    and as we dont actually have an idea how many people are here in the first place or how many leave its about as official as its ever going to get.

    Let us remember that supermarkets estimate our population as 10 million higher than official estimates based on how much they sell and our official estimates are based upon a guy with a clipboard based in a couple of places asking people where they come from or and if they are coming to stay.....what could possibly go wrong
    That last point is not really true - or more accurately is a single comment taken rather out of context.

    A supermarket (Asda, I think) was engaged in buying another. The Competition Authority said it was worried about market concentration in the grocery business, and they responded that they hadn't really gained market share from small grocers and that the market might be larger due to there being lots more people in the UK.

    Independent grocers responses to the inquiry were that this was simply untrue, and that the predatory pricing practices of the big supermarkets had led to them losing market share.

    If there really were 15% more people in the UK than people think, then we'd see it in lots of ways - VAT receipts would be the most obvious, but you could add things like school and hospital usage.
    Think of it the other way round.

    Last year, I visited a house - was in the market for a property. A nice road in a leafy suburb. Arrived at the place - a god awful tip.

    My suspicions were realised when the genial owner turned out to be the land lord. Slum landlord. Every room had multiple beds in it. Probably 10 people in a 4 bed house.

    How many of them do you think were living in anything other than the cash economy?
    Of course that happens.

    And I'm sure lots of those people aren't counted.

    But 10 million people is a lot of people. It's around 17 or 18% of working age adults. One-in-six adults across the UK is not an uncounted migrant living in slum accommodation.
    I don't think there are 10 million extra.

    But these are people who are taking quite some effort not to appear in official figures. Since we haven't connected all the systems in the style of Minority Report... have they ever been noticed by the Government?
    To be explicit, no I don't think the supermarket estimate is right, it is too high. However I also dont believe the official estimate it is too low I expect the real figure to be between the two
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 25,698
    Leon said:

    Watch Newsnight Now. OMFG

    The sounds are possibly the most distressing element.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,965
    edited January 15

    I fear that this may not be real but I wish it was.



    Fake News CNN....i am sure it most likely BS, but CNN and MSNBC over the past 4 year have become more than more left version of Fox News with so many stories that were incorrect or massively overspun, all clouded by hatred of everything Trump...which then detract from the real ones about Trump.

    And no other news other than Trump got reported.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,481

    Leon said:

    Watch Newsnight Now. OMFG

    The sounds are possibly the most distressing element.
    Yes. The dull gasping of the dying. Sweet Jesus
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 62,950
    Also, it's one thing to merely make a lot of outrageous defamatory claims (my favourite kind of tory comments), and yet another to falsely insist there was credible evidence to back up those claims.

    You could almost pretend you were doing a 'just asking questions' kind of shit stirring with the former, but the latter can only ever be a complete lie, as by simultaneously claiming to doing good journalism you are undermining future use of the 'I'm really really stupid' defence.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,481

    Leon said:

    Watch Newsnight Now. OMFG

    Disaster porn? Or are they prattling on about how crap the UK vaccination programme is again?
    No, the best report I have yet seen from a Covid hospital/ICU

    There should be more of this. We need to see it, however painful and distressing. Let us learn
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,951
    kle4 said:

    Never thought I'd be in the position of defending voting machine manufacturers, being a pencil and paper man all the way.

    There were some truly reckless claims after November, and so many people who must have known better not caring because it was for their own side, and hyping mere claims as proof of a problem. I hope we never get to that point here when it comes to fundamentals of our democracy. If you cannot trust the votes are counted, if you cannot trust losers will concede, things get dangerous.

    Machines that automate the creation of a human readable, paper ballots, are very, very different from voting "slot machines" made infamous in other elections.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 21,840

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Ahem. To half vaccinate all the oldies...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,951
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Watch Newsnight Now. OMFG

    Disaster porn? Or are they prattling on about how crap the UK vaccination programme is again?
    No, the best report I have yet seen from a Covid hospital/ICU

    There should be more of this. We need to see it, however painful and distressing. Let us learn
    I agree. The short version - the NHS is operating with zero margin at the moment. Stay safe.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,965
    edited January 15
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Watch Newsnight Now. OMFG

    Disaster porn? Or are they prattling on about how crap the UK vaccination programme is again?
    No, the best report I have yet seen from a Covid hospital/ICU

    There should be more of this. We need to see it, however painful and distressing. Let us learn
    I will give it a watch even if it means having to put up with Labour Lewis, who I find incredibly irrating.
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 630

    I fear that this may not be real but I wish it was.



    You just know that if there's one person on God's green earth who would eat the blue-bag Doritos it would be Ted fucking Cruz. Filth.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 2,828

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 25,866
    Foxy said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Ahem. To half vaccinate all the oldies...
    Everyone's in that boat now that Pfizer have got shipment issues.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,965
    edited January 15

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Watch Newsnight Now. OMFG

    Disaster porn? Or are they prattling on about how crap the UK vaccination programme is again?
    No, the best report I have yet seen from a Covid hospital/ICU

    There should be more of this. We need to see it, however painful and distressing. Let us learn
    I agree. The short version - the NHS is operating with zero margin at the moment. Stay safe.
    And don't get sick in the next 5 years....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,481

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Watch Newsnight Now. OMFG

    Disaster porn? Or are they prattling on about how crap the UK vaccination programme is again?
    No, the best report I have yet seen from a Covid hospital/ICU

    There should be more of this. We need to see it, however painful and distressing. Let us learn
    I will give it a watch even if it means having to put up with Labour Lewis, who I find incredibly irrating.
    Is he Labour? That didn't come across. It is just quality journalism. Incisive, honest, visceral. The debate after is tedious and political, but the report itself is essential viewing

    This needs to be on breakfast TV or News at Ten. The British people need to see it
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 630
    edited January 15
    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been eating my red-bag Doritos.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 2,828

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,951
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Watch Newsnight Now. OMFG

    Disaster porn? Or are they prattling on about how crap the UK vaccination programme is again?
    No, the best report I have yet seen from a Covid hospital/ICU

    There should be more of this. We need to see it, however painful and distressing. Let us learn
    I will give it a watch even if it means having to put up with Labour Lewis, who I find incredibly irrating.
    Is he Labour? That didn't come across. It is just quality journalism. Incisive, honest, visceral. The debate after is tedious and political, but the report itself is essential viewing

    This needs to be on breakfast TV or News at Ten. The British people need to see it
    The best part, was the calm, very neutral way it was presented. Just the facts. Approximately 22 billion light years from Jeremy Vine....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 62,950
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,951

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been eating my red-bag Doritos.
    I thought it was Ted Cruuz and his QAnon buddies who were eating your Doritos?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,481
    It is actually a shame Newsnight framed that incredible report from Northwick Hospital with a wholly egregious and monumentally boring debate about "how we fund the NHS".

    It would have been so much more powerful if they'd just kept it, as the sole item on the plate. Here, eat this. This is Covid. This is what it does, this is what it is like. Right this moment. Now let's talk about Russia, or pollution.

    Bad production, great journalism.



  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,965
    edited January 15
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Watch Newsnight Now. OMFG

    Disaster porn? Or are they prattling on about how crap the UK vaccination programme is again?
    No, the best report I have yet seen from a Covid hospital/ICU

    There should be more of this. We need to see it, however painful and distressing. Let us learn
    I will give it a watch even if it means having to put up with Labour Lewis, who I find incredibly irrating.
    Is he Labour? That didn't come across. It is just quality journalism. Incisive, honest, visceral. The debate after is tedious and political, but the report itself is essential viewing

    This needs to be on breakfast TV or News at Ten. The British people need to see it
    Yes, very much so. On Sky it got ridiculous how he really couldn't hide his bias...but thay report was good.

  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 630
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Actually I think there are only 120,000 people in the country.
    Seriously, I'm looking out the window and there's NOBODY out there. But you probably don't believe me, so we can split the difference and say it's probably closer to 35,000,000.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 21,840
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Don't we just chuck out a lot of food uneaten?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 2,828
    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 630
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Don't we just chuck out a lot of food uneaten?
    No, it's the Borrowers. Government after government has failed to quell the issue.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,965
    BBC News - WhatsApp changes: Signal messaging platform stops working as downloads surge
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55684595
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 2,828

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Actually I think there are only 120,000 people in the country.
    Seriously, I'm looking out the window and there's NOBODY out there. But you probably don't believe me, so we can split the difference and say it's probably closer to 35,000,000.
    Sighs believe what you want, no one ever lies when asked if they are planning to stay on those questionairres why would they. We don't even know how many illegal immigrants we have ffs and yet you believe they can accurately tell you how many people are in the country?
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 1,378
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,481
    Floater said:
    This is worth reading, in the context of that

    https://www.epsilontheory.com/the-ireland-event-2/


    America totters towards apoclaypse
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 2,320
    I've seen some references to the UK reaching 100k deaths soon, and I don't know if anyone else is calculating it this way, but I think we reach the landmark of 100k confirmed deaths in tomorrow's figures.

    Here, I'm combining two non-overlapping sets of the government's figures:

    - The 89243 COVID on death certificate figure to Jan 1st.
    - The 10514 deaths within 28 days of COVID recorded for dates of death from Jan 2nd inclusive.

    Which puts us on 99757 overall today. Whenever it comes it is a sombre landmark.
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 630

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been eating my red-bag Doritos.
    I thought it was Ted Cruuz and his QAnon buddies who were eating your Doritos?
    Where we golden wonder we go all
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 38,782
    Foxy said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Ahem. To half vaccinate all the oldies...
    And we're being overtaken by - ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 62,950
    Leon said:

    Floater said:
    This is worth reading, in the context of that

    https://www.epsilontheory.com/the-ireland-event-2/


    America totters towards apoclaypse
    Using data from flu monitoring programs in prior years, the CDC models project that 70 MILLION Americans have already gotten sick with symptomatic Covid, but decided to just write it off as a bad cold and never got tested. I am not making this up. Add in another 10 million or so Americans who the CDC models as having already had asymptomatic Covid, add in the 23 million Americans who we know have had Covid, and voila! – per the CDC, one-third of the American population is already effectively immunized against getting Covid in the future
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 21,840
    Leon said:

    It is actually a shame Newsnight framed that incredible report from Northwick Hospital with a wholly egregious and monumentally boring debate about "how we fund the NHS".

    It would have been so much more powerful if they'd just kept it, as the sole item on the plate. Here, eat this. This is Covid. This is what it does, this is what it is like. Right this moment. Now let's talk about Russia, or pollution.

    Bad production, great journalism.



    If anyone doesn't know that Covid-19 is a serious illness by now, 9 months into the pandemic, are they ever going to be convinced?

    My thousand bed Trust has 400 covid patients, 56 on ICU, 9 on ECMO, and admitted 40-55 new covid patients every day this week. Next week is forecast to be worse.

    If you think that's bad, we are still taking transfers from Essex and London, how much worse must it be there?

    Yet there are still covidiot deniers...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 25,698
    We were talking of Barra last night :(


  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 35,773
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    I'm sorry.

    But you keep using supermarkets as a plural, when it was a single supermarket, and everyone else who gave evidence at that enquiry disputed the assertion.

    And yet you are using it as if it were fact.

    If it were fact, we could verify it by looking at lots of other data.

    Supermarkets disclose their sales. You can download the investor presentations of Sainsburys, Tesco, etc. from their websites. If there are really 17 or 18% more adults, what are they buying? Why isn't the UK importing more food? Indeed, why have UK food imports - on a calorific basis - fallen? Have we really managed to grow 20% more food in the UK in the last two decades?

    Find one bit of real, supporting data evidence. Go on: just one.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,965
    edited January 15
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    It is actually a shame Newsnight framed that incredible report from Northwick Hospital with a wholly egregious and monumentally boring debate about "how we fund the NHS".

    It would have been so much more powerful if they'd just kept it, as the sole item on the plate. Here, eat this. This is Covid. This is what it does, this is what it is like. Right this moment. Now let's talk about Russia, or pollution.

    Bad production, great journalism.



    If anyone doesn't know that Covid-19 is a serious illness by now, 9 months into the pandemic, are they ever going to be convinced?

    My thousand bed Trust has 400 covid patients, 56 on ICU, 9 on ECMO, and admitted 40-55 new covid patients every day this week. Next week is forecast to be worse.

    If you think that's bad, we are still taking transfers from Essex and London, how much worse must it be there?

    Yet there are still covidiot deniers...
    I think there is still the misconception its just oldies. And i don't think people realise about things like the multiple organ failures that can occur. And too many definitely think its just really bad flu that kills off the weak, without thinking too hard that it literally drowning you and what that might be like.
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 630
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Floater said:
    This is worth reading, in the context of that

    https://www.epsilontheory.com/the-ireland-event-2/


    America totters towards apoclaypse
    Using data from flu monitoring programs in prior years, the CDC models project that 70 MILLION Americans have already gotten sick with symptomatic Covid, but decided to just write it off as a bad cold and never got tested. I am not making this up. Add in another 10 million or so Americans who the CDC models as having already had asymptomatic Covid, add in the 23 million Americans who we know have had Covid, and voila! – per the CDC, one-third of the American population is already effectively immunized against getting Covid in the future
    When someone writes "I am not making this up"...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 35,773

    I fear that this may not be real but I wish it was.



    You just know that if there's one person on God's green earth who would eat the blue-bag Doritos it would be Ted fucking Cruz. Filth.
    I like the blue bag Doritos.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 2,828

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
    While I appreciate the joke it really isn't a laughing matter. Knowing our population numbers is important for planning. How many doctors do we need, how many schools , how many hospitals etc. The fact we don't know accurately because of slip shod management by both tory and labour is lamentable. How hard would it be to count all coming in and going out accurately just in terms of numbers
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 630
    rcs1000 said:

    I fear that this may not be real but I wish it was.



    You just know that if there's one person on God's green earth who would eat the blue-bag Doritos it would be Ted fucking Cruz. Filth.
    I like the blue bag Doritos.
    Pretty sure that's illegal in several states.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,481
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    It is actually a shame Newsnight framed that incredible report from Northwick Hospital with a wholly egregious and monumentally boring debate about "how we fund the NHS".

    It would have been so much more powerful if they'd just kept it, as the sole item on the plate. Here, eat this. This is Covid. This is what it does, this is what it is like. Right this moment. Now let's talk about Russia, or pollution.

    Bad production, great journalism.



    If anyone doesn't know that Covid-19 is a serious illness by now, 9 months into the pandemic, are they ever going to be convinced?

    My thousand bed Trust has 400 covid patients, 56 on ICU, 9 on ECMO, and admitted 40-55 new covid patients every day this week. Next week is forecast to be worse.

    If you think that's bad, we are still taking transfers from Essex and London, how much worse must it be there?

    Yet there are still covidiot deniers...
    Yes, they can be convinced. But they need to have the seven shades of shite scared out of them. And the only way you can do that is like this: brutal TV coverage from inside the ICUs. Like we saw in Italy, or Madrid, or Wuhan.

    I understand the arguments against: it upsets people, who are already depressed, it is also cruel to people with loved ones in hospital,

    But we are surely beyond that. This is the worst thing to happen to us all since World War 2. Accept it. Own it. And defeat it by energising people to take precautions.

    Personally, I was minded to take a few modest risks next week - infections are falling, London is improving, blah de blah - after seeing that report, no way. So it worked on me.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 2,828
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    I'm sorry.

    But you keep using supermarkets as a plural, when it was a single supermarket, and everyone else who gave evidence at that enquiry disputed the assertion.

    And yet you are using it as if it were fact.

    If it were fact, we could verify it by looking at lots of other data.

    Supermarkets disclose their sales. You can download the investor presentations of Sainsburys, Tesco, etc. from their websites. If there are really 17 or 18% more adults, what are they buying? Why isn't the UK importing more food? Indeed, why have UK food imports - on a calorific basis - fallen? Have we really managed to grow 20% more food in the UK in the last two decades?

    Find one bit of real, supporting data evidence. Go on: just one.
    The article also quoted an independent agricultural suplier
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,951
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    It is actually a shame Newsnight framed that incredible report from Northwick Hospital with a wholly egregious and monumentally boring debate about "how we fund the NHS".

    It would have been so much more powerful if they'd just kept it, as the sole item on the plate. Here, eat this. This is Covid. This is what it does, this is what it is like. Right this moment. Now let's talk about Russia, or pollution.

    Bad production, great journalism.



    If anyone doesn't know that Covid-19 is a serious illness by now, 9 months into the pandemic, are they ever going to be convinced?

    My thousand bed Trust has 400 covid patients, 56 on ICU, 9 on ECMO, and admitted 40-55 new covid patients every day this week. Next week is forecast to be worse.

    If you think that's bad, we are still taking transfers from Essex and London, how much worse must it be there?

    Yet there are still covidiot deniers...
    Walter Durranty claimed there was no famine in Ukraine - despite walking down roads with people lying dead on the ground.

    Everyone has assumed his was lying.

    Or was he just post-truthing, due to his Stalin worship? Did he disbelieve the evidence of his own eyes?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 62,950
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
    While I appreciate the joke it really isn't a laughing matter. Knowing our population numbers is important for planning. How many doctors do we need, how many schools , how many hospitals etc. The fact we don't know accurately because of slip shod management by both tory and labour is lamentable. How hard would it be to count all coming in and going out accurately just in terms of numbers
    You say that we know the official figure is inaccurate but don't think it is as high as 80m. What number do you think it is? Presumably whatever evidence shows the official number is inaccurate must therefore give an indication what the true figure is.
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 630
    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    I'm sorry.

    But you keep using supermarkets as a plural, when it was a single supermarket, and everyone else who gave evidence at that enquiry disputed the assertion.

    And yet you are using it as if it were fact.

    If it were fact, we could verify it by looking at lots of other data.

    Supermarkets disclose their sales. You can download the investor presentations of Sainsburys, Tesco, etc. from their websites. If there are really 17 or 18% more adults, what are they buying? Why isn't the UK importing more food? Indeed, why have UK food imports - on a calorific basis - fallen? Have we really managed to grow 20% more food in the UK in the last two decades?

    Find one bit of real, supporting data evidence. Go on: just one.
    The article also quoted an independent agricultural suplier
    So.. a farmer.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 12,243
    Floater said:
    That note refers to martial law........
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 35,773
    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    I'm sorry.

    But you keep using supermarkets as a plural, when it was a single supermarket, and everyone else who gave evidence at that enquiry disputed the assertion.

    And yet you are using it as if it were fact.

    If it were fact, we could verify it by looking at lots of other data.

    Supermarkets disclose their sales. You can download the investor presentations of Sainsburys, Tesco, etc. from their websites. If there are really 17 or 18% more adults, what are they buying? Why isn't the UK importing more food? Indeed, why have UK food imports - on a calorific basis - fallen? Have we really managed to grow 20% more food in the UK in the last two decades?

    Find one bit of real, supporting data evidence. Go on: just one.
    The article also quoted an independent agricultural suplier
    An unnamed agricultural supplier.

    But here's the crazy bit: we can easily estimate the number of the people in the UK to within a couple of percent.

    Look at total food calorific consumption in 1990 (ONS data). Work out average calories per person based on the 1990 population count.
    Look at total food calorific consumption in 2019, and assume people are eating the same on a calorie basis.

    My guess is that we'll come out with a a number that is a couple of percent (1-3%) above official government population estimates. Not 15%.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,965
    Floater said:
    Is he deliberately trying to torpedo his very successful business?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 2,828
    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
    While I appreciate the joke it really isn't a laughing matter. Knowing our population numbers is important for planning. How many doctors do we need, how many schools , how many hospitals etc. The fact we don't know accurately because of slip shod management by both tory and labour is lamentable. How hard would it be to count all coming in and going out accurately just in terms of numbers
    You say that we know the official figure is inaccurate but don't think it is as high as 80m. What number do you think it is? Presumably whatever evidence shows the official number is inaccurate must therefore give an indication what the true figure is.
    I would suspect there is probably 3 to 4 million extra in the uk than official figures indicate. That however is not based on any statistics just an educated guess, there are certainly enough to form a black economy for the below minimum wage places to run.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 1,378
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
    While I appreciate the joke it really isn't a laughing matter. Knowing our population numbers is important for planning. How many doctors do we need, how many schools , how many hospitals etc. The fact we don't know accurately because of slip shod management by both tory and labour is lamentable. How hard would it be to count all coming in and going out accurately just in terms of numbers
    You're talking like there's one single ONS figure that's relevant here, but that's not true and even if it was there's loads of other sources of data that you could cross-correlate with and narrow down your population estimate.

    It seems highly unlikely that the confidence interval on our population estimate is e.g. plus or minus 10 million.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,951
    rcs1000 said:

    I fear that this may not be real but I wish it was.



    You just know that if there's one person on God's green earth who would eat the blue-bag Doritos it would be Ted fucking Cruz. Filth.
    I like the blue bag Doritos.
    Don't tell us - a secret craving for a bowl of blue bag Doritos, to go with the pineapple pizza, while you code in Python and Radiohead with the volume control at 11 on HiFi?

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 38,782

    We were talking of Barra last night :(


    Damn. Sorry to hear that. Maybe they thought "we haven't got a problem here." Took risks. Bang.

    Not much by way of a hospital there to cope with numbers requiring help.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 2,828
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    I'm sorry.

    But you keep using supermarkets as a plural, when it was a single supermarket, and everyone else who gave evidence at that enquiry disputed the assertion.

    And yet you are using it as if it were fact.

    If it were fact, we could verify it by looking at lots of other data.

    Supermarkets disclose their sales. You can download the investor presentations of Sainsburys, Tesco, etc. from their websites. If there are really 17 or 18% more adults, what are they buying? Why isn't the UK importing more food? Indeed, why have UK food imports - on a calorific basis - fallen? Have we really managed to grow 20% more food in the UK in the last two decades?

    Find one bit of real, supporting data evidence. Go on: just one.
    The article also quoted an independent agricultural suplier
    An unnamed agricultural supplier.

    But here's the crazy bit: we can easily estimate the number of the people in the UK to within a couple of percent.

    Look at total food calorific consumption in 1990 (ONS data). Work out average calories per person based on the 1990 population count.
    Look at total food calorific consumption in 2019, and assume people are eating the same on a calorie basis.

    My guess is that we'll come out with a a number that is a couple of percent (1-3%) above official government population estimates. Not 15%.
    I have repeatedly said I don't believe the supermarket estimate, the point I was originally making when I cited it was mainly that the official figures are also bollocks. Mary Batty asked me for a citation for the supermarket estimate I provided it
  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,481

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    It is actually a shame Newsnight framed that incredible report from Northwick Hospital with a wholly egregious and monumentally boring debate about "how we fund the NHS".

    It would have been so much more powerful if they'd just kept it, as the sole item on the plate. Here, eat this. This is Covid. This is what it does, this is what it is like. Right this moment. Now let's talk about Russia, or pollution.

    Bad production, great journalism.



    If anyone doesn't know that Covid-19 is a serious illness by now, 9 months into the pandemic, are they ever going to be convinced?

    My thousand bed Trust has 400 covid patients, 56 on ICU, 9 on ECMO, and admitted 40-55 new covid patients every day this week. Next week is forecast to be worse.

    If you think that's bad, we are still taking transfers from Essex and London, how much worse must it be there?

    Yet there are still covidiot deniers...
    I think there is still the misconception its just oldies. And i don't think people realise about things like the multiple organ failures that can occur. And too many definitely think its just really bad flu that kills off the weak, without thinking too hard that it literally drowning you and what that might be like.
    Yes. Seeing the robust, big, healthy-looking guy (face rightly obscured) who was about my age and build, apparently grasping for his final breaths, scared the living crap out of me. I will not deny it. I don't want this bug in my life
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 21,840
    rcs1000 said:

    I fear that this may not be real but I wish it was.



    You just know that if there's one person on God's green earth who would eat the blue-bag Doritos it would be Ted fucking Cruz. Filth.
    I like the blue bag Doritos.
    Not as nice as plain nachos, but acceptable in an emergency, and nicer than the red bag ones.
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 630
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
    While I appreciate the joke it really isn't a laughing matter. Knowing our population numbers is important for planning. How many doctors do we need, how many schools , how many hospitals etc. The fact we don't know accurately because of slip shod management by both tory and labour is lamentable. How hard would it be to count all coming in and going out accurately just in terms of numbers
    You say that we know the official figure is inaccurate but don't think it is as high as 80m. What number do you think it is? Presumably whatever evidence shows the official number is inaccurate must therefore give an indication what the true figure is.
    I would suspect there is probably 3 to 4 million extra in the uk than official figures indicate. That however is not based on any statistics just an educated guess, there are certainly enough to form a black economy for the below minimum wage places to run.
    Out of interest, how does the supermarket know what kind of market share they have? I mean, if you know how much you sell, and you know your market share you can work out how much food is sold. But I contend that knowing the latter is really bloody difficult.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 19,271
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    I'm sorry.

    But you keep using supermarkets as a plural, when it was a single supermarket, and everyone else who gave evidence at that enquiry disputed the assertion.

    And yet you are using it as if it were fact.

    If it were fact, we could verify it by looking at lots of other data.

    Supermarkets disclose their sales. You can download the investor presentations of Sainsburys, Tesco, etc. from their websites. If there are really 17 or 18% more adults, what are they buying? Why isn't the UK importing more food? Indeed, why have UK food imports - on a calorific basis - fallen? Have we really managed to grow 20% more food in the UK in the last two decades?

    Find one bit of real, supporting data evidence. Go on: just one.
    Have we really managed to grow 20% more food in the UK in the last two decades?

    Pretty much so.

    AFF output:

    1990q3 90.5
    2000q3 91.4
    2010q3 88.5
    2020q3 106.8

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/l2kl/ukea

    Its a very erratic measure but UK agricultural output has significantly increased.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 12,243

    Floater said:
    Is he deliberately trying to torpedo his very successful business?
    If what the guy I am watching thinks it says is true this is potentially incendiary......
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,965
    edited January 15
    Floater said:

    Floater said:
    Is he deliberately trying to torpedo his very successful business?
    If what the guy I am watching thinks it says is true this is potentially incendiary......
    Regardless, mypillow guy in the past year has become a staple at Trump rallies, often using them to push his products.

    You would think given events it might be a good idea to lie low for a bit.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 2,828
    edited January 15

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
    While I appreciate the joke it really isn't a laughing matter. Knowing our population numbers is important for planning. How many doctors do we need, how many schools , how many hospitals etc. The fact we don't know accurately because of slip shod management by both tory and labour is lamentable. How hard would it be to count all coming in and going out accurately just in terms of numbers
    You say that we know the official figure is inaccurate but don't think it is as high as 80m. What number do you think it is? Presumably whatever evidence shows the official number is inaccurate must therefore give an indication what the true figure is.
    I would suspect there is probably 3 to 4 million extra in the uk than official figures indicate. That however is not based on any statistics just an educated guess, there are certainly enough to form a black economy for the below minimum wage places to run.
    Out of interest, how does the supermarket know what kind of market share they have? I mean, if you know how much you sell, and you know your market share you can work out how much food is sold. But I contend that knowing the latter is really bloody difficult.
    All supermarkets are publicly listed, each has to list its revenue therefore. You add up all the revenue divide your revenue by the total and multiply by a 100
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 630

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
    While I appreciate the joke it really isn't a laughing matter. Knowing our population numbers is important for planning. How many doctors do we need, how many schools , how many hospitals etc. The fact we don't know accurately because of slip shod management by both tory and labour is lamentable. How hard would it be to count all coming in and going out accurately just in terms of numbers
    You say that we know the official figure is inaccurate but don't think it is as high as 80m. What number do you think it is? Presumably whatever evidence shows the official number is inaccurate must therefore give an indication what the true figure is.
    I would suspect there is probably 3 to 4 million extra in the uk than official figures indicate. That however is not based on any statistics just an educated guess, there are certainly enough to form a black economy for the below minimum wage places to run.
    Out of interest, how does the supermarket know what kind of market share they have? I mean, if you know how much you sell, and you know your market share you can work out how much food is sold. But I contend that knowing the latter is really bloody difficult.
    To summarise:
    A well-placed supermarket source will know how much THAT supermarket sells. They won't know their own market share beyond an estimate. They won't know how much food one person eats beyond an estimate. They won't know how much of the food is wasted beyond an estimate.
    We don't know who the source is so whether they are even well-placed is an open question.

    And Farmer Parkin with his leg wrapped in polathine agrees that there's bloody immigrants everywhere.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 917
    edited January 16

    We were talking of Barra last night :(


    Damn. Sorry to hear that. Maybe they thought "we haven't got a problem here." Took risks. Bang.

    Not much by way of a hospital there to cope with numbers requiring help.
    That's an awful lot of close contacts for a small number of people.

    A flight to Glasgow or Oban might be needed I suppose. A helicopter if it is high tide. :)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,965
    edited January 16
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    It is actually a shame Newsnight framed that incredible report from Northwick Hospital with a wholly egregious and monumentally boring debate about "how we fund the NHS".

    It would have been so much more powerful if they'd just kept it, as the sole item on the plate. Here, eat this. This is Covid. This is what it does, this is what it is like. Right this moment. Now let's talk about Russia, or pollution.

    Bad production, great journalism.



    If anyone doesn't know that Covid-19 is a serious illness by now, 9 months into the pandemic, are they ever going to be convinced?

    My thousand bed Trust has 400 covid patients, 56 on ICU, 9 on ECMO, and admitted 40-55 new covid patients every day this week. Next week is forecast to be worse.

    If you think that's bad, we are still taking transfers from Essex and London, how much worse must it be there?

    Yet there are still covidiot deniers...
    I think there is still the misconception its just oldies. And i don't think people realise about things like the multiple organ failures that can occur. And too many definitely think its just really bad flu that kills off the weak, without thinking too hard that it literally drowning you and what that might be like.
    Yes. Seeing the robust, big, healthy-looking guy (face rightly obscured) who was about my age and build, apparently grasping for his final breaths, scared the living crap out of me. I will not deny it. I don't want this bug in my life
    I once fell out of the boat while white water rafting. Got sucked under, round and round the washing machine before thankfully getting spat out after what seemed like an age. That happening for long enough for one to realise that you are out of breath and in big trouble unless you get air very quickly and then finally coming up gasping for breath was bad enough, i can't imagine that being the case for days on end.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 2,828

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
    While I appreciate the joke it really isn't a laughing matter. Knowing our population numbers is important for planning. How many doctors do we need, how many schools , how many hospitals etc. The fact we don't know accurately because of slip shod management by both tory and labour is lamentable. How hard would it be to count all coming in and going out accurately just in terms of numbers
    You say that we know the official figure is inaccurate but don't think it is as high as 80m. What number do you think it is? Presumably whatever evidence shows the official number is inaccurate must therefore give an indication what the true figure is.
    I would suspect there is probably 3 to 4 million extra in the uk than official figures indicate. That however is not based on any statistics just an educated guess, there are certainly enough to form a black economy for the below minimum wage places to run.
    Out of interest, how does the supermarket know what kind of market share they have? I mean, if you know how much you sell, and you know your market share you can work out how much food is sold. But I contend that knowing the latter is really bloody difficult.
    To summarise:
    A well-placed supermarket source will know how much THAT supermarket sells. They won't know their own market share beyond an estimate. They won't know how much food one person eats beyond an estimate. They won't know how much of the food is wasted beyond an estimate.
    We don't know who the source is so whether they are even well-placed is an open question.

    And Farmer Parkin with his leg wrapped in polathine agrees that there's bloody immigrants everywhere.
    Piffle, piffle and unmitigated and piffle....all supermarkets know each others sales figures because they are public record.
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 630
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
    While I appreciate the joke it really isn't a laughing matter. Knowing our population numbers is important for planning. How many doctors do we need, how many schools , how many hospitals etc. The fact we don't know accurately because of slip shod management by both tory and labour is lamentable. How hard would it be to count all coming in and going out accurately just in terms of numbers
    You say that we know the official figure is inaccurate but don't think it is as high as 80m. What number do you think it is? Presumably whatever evidence shows the official number is inaccurate must therefore give an indication what the true figure is.
    I would suspect there is probably 3 to 4 million extra in the uk than official figures indicate. That however is not based on any statistics just an educated guess, there are certainly enough to form a black economy for the below minimum wage places to run.
    Out of interest, how does the supermarket know what kind of market share they have? I mean, if you know how much you sell, and you know your market share you can work out how much food is sold. But I contend that knowing the latter is really bloody difficult.
    All supermarkets are publicly listed, each has to list its revenue therefore. You add up all the revenue divide your revenue by the total and multiply by a 100
    Food consumption isn't just from supermarkets. There are local independent shops, takeaways and restaurants, even allotment, home grown and foraging sectors. There are online retailers of non-perishables whose overall offering is much wider than just food... and, of course, going back to the supermarkets they are also selling non-food items in quite variable amounts, brand to brand and shop to shop.

    No, sorry, this sounded a bit silly to start with but the more I think about it the more it sounds like a wild stab in the dark.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 38,782

    We were talking of Barra last night :(


    Damn. Sorry to hear that. Maybe they thought "we haven't got a problem here." Took risks. Bang.

    Not much by way of a hospital there to cope with numbers requiring help.
    That's an awful lot of close contacts for a small number of people.

    A flight to Glasgow or Oban might be needed I suppose. A helicopter if it is high tide. :)
    Or night time.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 38,782
    edited January 16

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
    While I appreciate the joke it really isn't a laughing matter. Knowing our population numbers is important for planning. How many doctors do we need, how many schools , how many hospitals etc. The fact we don't know accurately because of slip shod management by both tory and labour is lamentable. How hard would it be to count all coming in and going out accurately just in terms of numbers
    You say that we know the official figure is inaccurate but don't think it is as high as 80m. What number do you think it is? Presumably whatever evidence shows the official number is inaccurate must therefore give an indication what the true figure is.
    I would suspect there is probably 3 to 4 million extra in the uk than official figures indicate. That however is not based on any statistics just an educated guess, there are certainly enough to form a black economy for the below minimum wage places to run.
    Out of interest, how does the supermarket know what kind of market share they have? I mean, if you know how much you sell, and you know your market share you can work out how much food is sold. But I contend that knowing the latter is really bloody difficult.
    To summarise:
    A well-placed supermarket source will know how much THAT supermarket sells. They won't know their own market share beyond an estimate. They won't know how much food one person eats beyond an estimate. They won't know how much of the food is wasted beyond an estimate.
    We don't know who the source is so whether they are even well-placed is an open question.

    And Farmer Parkin with his leg wrapped in polathine agrees that there's bloody immigrants everywhere.
    A hidden army of workers in the black economy would need a vast amount of banknotes to keep a black economy going. They aren't doing credit cards, they aren't doing banks.

    How big could it possibly be? We'd know right? If there were untold millions.

    Oh.

    £50 billion? In notes?

    https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/37088/bank-of-england-called-to-account-over-50-billion-in-missing-banknotes


  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 2,828

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
    While I appreciate the joke it really isn't a laughing matter. Knowing our population numbers is important for planning. How many doctors do we need, how many schools , how many hospitals etc. The fact we don't know accurately because of slip shod management by both tory and labour is lamentable. How hard would it be to count all coming in and going out accurately just in terms of numbers
    You say that we know the official figure is inaccurate but don't think it is as high as 80m. What number do you think it is? Presumably whatever evidence shows the official number is inaccurate must therefore give an indication what the true figure is.
    I would suspect there is probably 3 to 4 million extra in the uk than official figures indicate. That however is not based on any statistics just an educated guess, there are certainly enough to form a black economy for the below minimum wage places to run.
    Out of interest, how does the supermarket know what kind of market share they have? I mean, if you know how much you sell, and you know your market share you can work out how much food is sold. But I contend that knowing the latter is really bloody difficult.
    All supermarkets are publicly listed, each has to list its revenue therefore. You add up all the revenue divide your revenue by the total and multiply by a 100
    Food consumption isn't just from supermarkets. There are local independent shops, takeaways and restaurants, even allotment, home grown and foraging sectors. There are online retailers of non-perishables whose overall offering is much wider than just food... and, of course, going back to the supermarkets they are also selling non-food items in quite variable amounts, brand to brand and shop to shop.

    No, sorry, this sounded a bit silly to start with but the more I think about it the more it sounds like a wild stab in the dark.
    You asked for a citation when I said it had been estimated at a higher total by a supermarket I gave you the citation. I never claimed I believed their estimate I merely gave you evidence what I asserted was true. I have told you multiple times now I thought their estimate was high and driven by self interest and that the point I was making was official estimates are definitely too low. End of conversation with you
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,264
    edited January 16
    kle4 said:

    Never thought I'd be in the position of defending voting machine manufacturers, being a pencil and paper man all the way.

    There were some truly reckless claims after November, and so many people who must have known better not caring because it was for their own side, and hyping mere claims as proof of a problem. I hope we never get to that point here when it comes to fundamentals of our democracy. If you cannot trust the votes are counted, if you cannot trust losers will concede, things get dangerous.

    If your voting machine is basically a glorified printer then there's a lot to be said for it over pencil. It can tell the voter if they're about to cast an invalid or ambiguous vote there and then, whereas a pencil system lets them think their vote will be counted then rejects it later. It also gives you an additional count, that will help detect if there's a mysterious hamster-related incident between putting the bits of paper in the boxes and counting them.

    Using computers is OK, but you should under no circumstances have to trust them.
  • UbarrowUbarrow Posts: 8
    So, coincidentally I’m just binge watching 2012 American tv series Scandal. Tonight’s episode is about swinging an election (to the Republicans) by fixing the voting machine software to switch a proportion of the votes. Series 2, episode 7.
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 630

    We were talking of Barra last night :(


    Damn. Sorry to hear that. Maybe they thought "we haven't got a problem here." Took risks. Bang.

    Not much by way of a hospital there to cope with numbers requiring help.
    That's an awful lot of close contacts for a small number of people.

    A flight to Glasgow or Oban might be needed I suppose. A helicopter if it is high tide. :)
    As I understand it, there's some issue with some helicopters flying into the cloud layer, especially when it's cold. I heard that Police Scotland's helicopters were not able to do this, or the air ambulance... one was able and one wasn't.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,264
    Ubarrow said:

    So, coincidentally I’m just binge watching 2012 American tv series Scandal. Tonight’s episode is about swinging an election (to the Republicans) by fixing the voting machine software to switch a proportion of the votes. Series 2, episode 7.

    TBF they used to have machines that literally recorded the votes on an internal database and made no external record, so this idea would at least have been technically possible.
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 630
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
    While I appreciate the joke it really isn't a laughing matter. Knowing our population numbers is important for planning. How many doctors do we need, how many schools , how many hospitals etc. The fact we don't know accurately because of slip shod management by both tory and labour is lamentable. How hard would it be to count all coming in and going out accurately just in terms of numbers
    You say that we know the official figure is inaccurate but don't think it is as high as 80m. What number do you think it is? Presumably whatever evidence shows the official number is inaccurate must therefore give an indication what the true figure is.
    I would suspect there is probably 3 to 4 million extra in the uk than official figures indicate. That however is not based on any statistics just an educated guess, there are certainly enough to form a black economy for the below minimum wage places to run.
    Out of interest, how does the supermarket know what kind of market share they have? I mean, if you know how much you sell, and you know your market share you can work out how much food is sold. But I contend that knowing the latter is really bloody difficult.
    All supermarkets are publicly listed, each has to list its revenue therefore. You add up all the revenue divide your revenue by the total and multiply by a 100
    Food consumption isn't just from supermarkets. There are local independent shops, takeaways and restaurants, even allotment, home grown and foraging sectors. There are online retailers of non-perishables whose overall offering is much wider than just food... and, of course, going back to the supermarkets they are also selling non-food items in quite variable amounts, brand to brand and shop to shop.

    No, sorry, this sounded a bit silly to start with but the more I think about it the more it sounds like a wild stab in the dark.
    You asked for a citation when I said it had been estimated at a higher total by a supermarket I gave you the citation. I never claimed I believed their estimate I merely gave you evidence what I asserted was true. I have told you multiple times now I thought their estimate was high and driven by self interest and that the point I was making was official estimates are definitely too low. End of conversation with you
    That's ok, I've got a family living in my cupboard I can speak to instead.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 21,840

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
    While I appreciate the joke it really isn't a laughing matter. Knowing our population numbers is important for planning. How many doctors do we need, how many schools , how many hospitals etc. The fact we don't know accurately because of slip shod management by both tory and labour is lamentable. How hard would it be to count all coming in and going out accurately just in terms of numbers
    You say that we know the official figure is inaccurate but don't think it is as high as 80m. What number do you think it is? Presumably whatever evidence shows the official number is inaccurate must therefore give an indication what the true figure is.
    I would suspect there is probably 3 to 4 million extra in the uk than official figures indicate. That however is not based on any statistics just an educated guess, there are certainly enough to form a black economy for the below minimum wage places to run.
    Out of interest, how does the supermarket know what kind of market share they have? I mean, if you know how much you sell, and you know your market share you can work out how much food is sold. But I contend that knowing the latter is really bloody difficult.
    To summarise:
    A well-placed supermarket source will know how much THAT supermarket sells. They won't know their own market share beyond an estimate. They won't know how much food one person eats beyond an estimate. They won't know how much of the food is wasted beyond an estimate.
    We don't know who the source is so whether they are even well-placed is an open question.

    And Farmer Parkin with his leg wrapped in polathine agrees that there's bloody immigrants everywhere.
    A hidden army of workers in the black economy would need a vast amount of banknotes to keep a black economy going. They aren't doing credit cards, they aren't doing banks.

    How big could it possibly be? We'd know right? If there were untold millions.

    Oh.

    £50 billion? In notes?

    https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/37088/bank-of-england-called-to-account-over-50-billion-in-missing-banknotes


    Just ask why Dubai is the second biggest source of banknotes after the BoE.

    That is where the drug money is laundered.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 917
    edited January 16

    We were talking of Barra last night :(


    Damn. Sorry to hear that. Maybe they thought "we haven't got a problem here." Took risks. Bang.

    Not much by way of a hospital there to cope with numbers requiring help.
    That's an awful lot of close contacts for a small number of people.

    A flight to Glasgow or Oban might be needed I suppose. A helicopter if it is high tide. :)
    As I understand it, there's some issue with some helicopters flying into the cloud layer, especially when it's cold. I heard that Police Scotland's helicopters were not able to do this, or the air ambulance... one was able and one wasn't.
    Icing, I assume. A big problem in winter if the freezing level is low.

    The Bristow air-sea rescue helicopters should still be OK I think?

    Living on the islands does seem very attractive but not if you have a medical emergency. Fingers crossed it doesn't get worse.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 2,481
    edited January 16

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    It is actually a shame Newsnight framed that incredible report from Northwick Hospital with a wholly egregious and monumentally boring debate about "how we fund the NHS".

    It would have been so much more powerful if they'd just kept it, as the sole item on the plate. Here, eat this. This is Covid. This is what it does, this is what it is like. Right this moment. Now let's talk about Russia, or pollution.

    Bad production, great journalism.



    If anyone doesn't know that Covid-19 is a serious illness by now, 9 months into the pandemic, are they ever going to be convinced?

    My thousand bed Trust has 400 covid patients, 56 on ICU, 9 on ECMO, and admitted 40-55 new covid patients every day this week. Next week is forecast to be worse.

    If you think that's bad, we are still taking transfers from Essex and London, how much worse must it be there?

    Yet there are still covidiot deniers...
    I think there is still the misconception its just oldies. And i don't think people realise about things like the multiple organ failures that can occur. And too many definitely think its just really bad flu that kills off the weak, without thinking too hard that it literally drowning you and what that might be like.
    Yes. Seeing the robust, big, healthy-looking guy (face rightly obscured) who was about my age and build, apparently grasping for his final breaths, scared the living crap out of me. I will not deny it. I don't want this bug in my life
    I once fell out of the boat while white water rafting. Got sucked under, round and round the washing machine before thankfully getting spat out after what seemed like an age. That happening for long enough for one to realise that you are out of breath and in big trouble unless you get air very quickly and then finally coming up gasping for breath was bad enough, i can't imagine that being the case for days on end.
    I nearly drowned once, scuba diving off Corsica. The drunken, blase old boat captain overloaded me with oxygen and weights and forgot about the riptide. The entire experience lasted about 2 hellish minutes, but I will never forget the awful sense of "there is not enough air, I am struggling to breathe, help, I'm going under" - then a kindly wave, and a sensible lad on the boat, lifted me up at just the right time.

    2 minutes. Christ.

    Goodnight PB. Stay safe
  • Mary_BattyMary_Batty Posts: 630

    We were talking of Barra last night :(


    Damn. Sorry to hear that. Maybe they thought "we haven't got a problem here." Took risks. Bang.

    Not much by way of a hospital there to cope with numbers requiring help.
    That's an awful lot of close contacts for a small number of people.

    A flight to Glasgow or Oban might be needed I suppose. A helicopter if it is high tide. :)
    As I understand it, there's some issue with some helicopters flying into the cloud layer, especially when it's cold. I heard that Police Scotland's helicopters were not able to do this, or the air ambulance... one was able and one wasn't.
    Icing, I assume. A big problem in winter if the freezing level is low.

    The Bristow air-sea rescue helicopters should still be OK I think?

    Living on the islands does seem very attractive but not if you have a medical emergency. Fingers crossed it doesn't get worse.
    I don't think the air-sea rescue helicopters are the ones used ordinarily by the air ambulance, but I'll bow out of this before I say something wrong because I'm quite unsure, this is a several-years old memory of a brief conversation. There was something about pilot training in there too, about pilots on job share getting shifted to police-only duty because of doubled training costs, because the other craft with the anti-icing tech needed extra training? I don't know. All I know is that at this time of year air evacuation might be tricky even in calm conditions.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,951
    edited January 16
    Playing around with vaccination numbers -

    image

    Not many data points - but strangely stable ratios. Structural?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 2,828
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
    While I appreciate the joke it really isn't a laughing matter. Knowing our population numbers is important for planning. How many doctors do we need, how many schools , how many hospitals etc. The fact we don't know accurately because of slip shod management by both tory and labour is lamentable. How hard would it be to count all coming in and going out accurately just in terms of numbers
    You say that we know the official figure is inaccurate but don't think it is as high as 80m. What number do you think it is? Presumably whatever evidence shows the official number is inaccurate must therefore give an indication what the true figure is.
    I would suspect there is probably 3 to 4 million extra in the uk than official figures indicate. That however is not based on any statistics just an educated guess, there are certainly enough to form a black economy for the below minimum wage places to run.
    Out of interest, how does the supermarket know what kind of market share they have? I mean, if you know how much you sell, and you know your market share you can work out how much food is sold. But I contend that knowing the latter is really bloody difficult.
    To summarise:
    A well-placed supermarket source will know how much THAT supermarket sells. They won't know their own market share beyond an estimate. They won't know how much food one person eats beyond an estimate. They won't know how much of the food is wasted beyond an estimate.
    We don't know who the source is so whether they are even well-placed is an open question.

    And Farmer Parkin with his leg wrapped in polathine agrees that there's bloody immigrants everywhere.
    A hidden army of workers in the black economy would need a vast amount of banknotes to keep a black economy going. They aren't doing credit cards, they aren't doing banks.

    How big could it possibly be? We'd know right? If there were untold millions.

    Oh.

    £50 billion? In notes?

    https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/37088/bank-of-england-called-to-account-over-50-billion-in-missing-banknotes


    Just ask why Dubai is the second biggest source of banknotes after the BoE.

    That is where the drug money is laundered.
    Being uncounted is easy for example for 4 years I payed no tax, no national insurance, no gas, electric,rent etc officially. The only record of me were monies paid into my bank account and out of it and numerous hmrc queries when I breached the 10k limit for deposits. I left and reentered the country multiple times and never once had my passport checked. They never knew if I was here or not
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 38,782

    We were talking of Barra last night :(


    Damn. Sorry to hear that. Maybe they thought "we haven't got a problem here." Took risks. Bang.

    Not much by way of a hospital there to cope with numbers requiring help.
    That's an awful lot of close contacts for a small number of people.

    A flight to Glasgow or Oban might be needed I suppose. A helicopter if it is high tide. :)
    As I understand it, there's some issue with some helicopters flying into the cloud layer, especially when it's cold. I heard that Police Scotland's helicopters were not able to do this, or the air ambulance... one was able and one wasn't.
    "There’s no lighting at all on the runways which make night landings a problem. Occasionally the Air Ambulance will need to land at night to transfer sick passengers to the mainland. To light the runways, a Land Rover will be dispatched to the end of the runway to guide the aircraft in with their headlights!"

    from a photo journey of the flight from Glasgow to Barra and back in 2019: https://simpleflying.com/flight-review-landing-on-the-beach-in-barra-scotland-with-loganair/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,965
    edited January 16
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
    While I appreciate the joke it really isn't a laughing matter. Knowing our population numbers is important for planning. How many doctors do we need, how many schools , how many hospitals etc. The fact we don't know accurately because of slip shod management by both tory and labour is lamentable. How hard would it be to count all coming in and going out accurately just in terms of numbers
    You say that we know the official figure is inaccurate but don't think it is as high as 80m. What number do you think it is? Presumably whatever evidence shows the official number is inaccurate must therefore give an indication what the true figure is.
    I would suspect there is probably 3 to 4 million extra in the uk than official figures indicate. That however is not based on any statistics just an educated guess, there are certainly enough to form a black economy for the below minimum wage places to run.
    Out of interest, how does the supermarket know what kind of market share they have? I mean, if you know how much you sell, and you know your market share you can work out how much food is sold. But I contend that knowing the latter is really bloody difficult.
    To summarise:
    A well-placed supermarket source will know how much THAT supermarket sells. They won't know their own market share beyond an estimate. They won't know how much food one person eats beyond an estimate. They won't know how much of the food is wasted beyond an estimate.
    We don't know who the source is so whether they are even well-placed is an open question.

    And Farmer Parkin with his leg wrapped in polathine agrees that there's bloody immigrants everywhere.
    A hidden army of workers in the black economy would need a vast amount of banknotes to keep a black economy going. They aren't doing credit cards, they aren't doing banks.

    How big could it possibly be? We'd know right? If there were untold millions.

    Oh.

    £50 billion? In notes?

    https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/37088/bank-of-england-called-to-account-over-50-billion-in-missing-banknotes


    Just ask why Dubai is the second biggest source of banknotes after the BoE.

    That is where the drug money is laundered.
    There was the story of the British Lady that got the sack from I believe Deutsche Bank after she questioned why a branch was constantly out of cash and found that so much was being withdrawn that they were using wheelbarrows to transport it.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50205956

    Personally I always take my own wheelbarrow, can't be too careful with COVID and all that.
  • Mike Lindahl is a nasty piece of work, who's been working time overtime turning his love of Trumpsky (and Jesus IF you believe him) into a mega-profit center. MUCH more successful than Rudy or even the Trumpy Bear company.

    This asshole is - or has been - inescapable on US TV for some time, especially if you are watching broadcast which is full of ads aimed a geezers. For whom a good night's sleep is a REALLY big deal.

    Personally would rather lay my weary head on a brick and wrap myself in newsprint that make use of a Putinist pillow and matching sheets.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 29,456
    I have to admit this thought occurred to me, too.
    Speculative, but worrying.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 11,951

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    First as in UK country in Europe to vaccinate all the oldies....

    Apparently not, since we have a forty squiggillion people off the books. We're actually lagging behind France. A lad stacking the shelf at my local Co-op told me and, well, they would know.
    You believe the official guess more then? Because that is all it is a guess. The truth lies between the two and there is evidence the official guess is wrong just on national insurance numbers issued.

    It is a failure going back decades by both labour and tory governments we dont know how many entered and how many left
    When I read your earlier claim, I laughed out loud. But then I got shushed by a voice in the cupboard. Opened it to check, and yes, there's a family living there I didn't even know about.

    That's who's been easting my red-bag Doritos.
    Why laugh I gave you a citation which backed what I said which was a supermarket had claimed there were more people.

    The ons figure is bullshit and too low, the supermarket figure is bullshit and too high. Both are based on absolute guesswork. There are certainly more than 66 million here, there are certainly less than 80 million. The fact you only decry one claim is sad
    Are they really based on the same level of guesswork?
    The ons one is based on selected travellers into the country being given a questionaire to fill in at a handful of ports and airports. The answers they give are not checked. This is then extrapolated to all ports and airports to work out immigration and emigration figures. This has been widely reported and admitted.

    How accurate do you believe that to be?

    The supermarket and independent agricultural supplier suggestions are based on the amount of food they sell. Certainly the supermarket had reason to sex up its figure.

    How accurately can you estimate how many people you are feeding?

    Personally I dont believe either. ONS is too low, supermarket too high
    Well, ought to be plenty easy to count once we're all chipped with the vaccine.

    JOKE HAHA
    While I appreciate the joke it really isn't a laughing matter. Knowing our population numbers is important for planning. How many doctors do we need, how many schools , how many hospitals etc. The fact we don't know accurately because of slip shod management by both tory and labour is lamentable. How hard would it be to count all coming in and going out accurately just in terms of numbers
    You say that we know the official figure is inaccurate but don't think it is as high as 80m. What number do you think it is? Presumably whatever evidence shows the official number is inaccurate must therefore give an indication what the true figure is.
    I would suspect there is probably 3 to 4 million extra in the uk than official figures indicate. That however is not based on any statistics just an educated guess, there are certainly enough to form a black economy for the below minimum wage places to run.
    Out of interest, how does the supermarket know what kind of market share they have? I mean, if you know how much you sell, and you know your market share you can work out how much food is sold. But I contend that knowing the latter is really bloody difficult.
    To summarise:
    A well-placed supermarket source will know how much THAT supermarket sells. They won't know their own market share beyond an estimate. They won't know how much food one person eats beyond an estimate. They won't know how much of the food is wasted beyond an estimate.
    We don't know who the source is so whether they are even well-placed is an open question.

    And Farmer Parkin with his leg wrapped in polathine agrees that there's bloody immigrants everywhere.
    A hidden army of workers in the black economy would need a vast amount of banknotes to keep a black economy going. They aren't doing credit cards, they aren't doing banks.

    How big could it possibly be? We'd know right? If there were untold millions.

    Oh.

    £50 billion? In notes?

    https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/37088/bank-of-england-called-to-account-over-50-billion-in-missing-banknotes


    Just ask why Dubai is the second biggest source of banknotes after the BoE.

    That is where the drug money is laundered.
    There was the story of the British Lady that got the sack from I believe Deutsche Bank after she questioned why a branch was constantly out of cash and found that so much was being withdrawn that they were using wheelbarrows to transport it.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50205956

    Personally I always take my own wheelbarrow, can't be too careful with COVID and all that.
    Reporting something like that to the regulator in Dubai - pretty dumb if you don't know who is involved. 10 to 1 they were playing "tax" to someone high enough in the system....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,965
    edited January 16
    Somebody trying to outdo Philip Green for being a scumbag company owner...

    Disabled workers at one of the UK's oldest social enterprises, Clarity, have allegedly been denied £200,000 in wages by the new owner.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55664266

    And not just there....he owns another business making caravans and allegedly done the same there.

    https://www.lep.co.uk/business/consumer/union-demands-probe-furlough-payments-lancashire-caravan-manufacturer-3095293
This discussion has been closed.