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Now Trump is struggling to find lawyers who’ll defend him at the impeachment proceedings – political

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  • eekeek Posts: 28,398

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Clearly he misses out the fact - cheap food = full of sugar and other crap to keep costs down.

    The only difference between now and the 19th century is that then cheap food was poor quality and often featured things that weren't food (so you were under weight). Now it contains calories that aren't easy to burn off.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    There's a nice run-through of which GOP senators might vote to convict here in The Hill. Their framing is that McConnell could make it happen if he wanted to, but I think if you look at the detail of who he has to flip it shows you just how hard it will be to find the votes, even if McConnell wants to, which is by no means a given.

    https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/534213-mcconnell-about-to-school-trump-on-political-power-for-the-last-time?amp&__twitter_impression=true
  • Remember how Scottish Tories insisted the Scottish Government was deliberately trying to wreck the Scottish food industry for point-scoring purposes?

    https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/wholesalers/unitas-slams-disparity-in-grant-funding-between-scottish-and-english-members/652042.article

    "Unitas MD Darren Goldney has urged the government to correct the disparity in financial aid given to its members in Scotland and England.

    It comes as Scottish wholesalers have been given access to two separate grants: the Pivotal Enterprise Resilience Hardship Fund in the summer and a wholesale-specific £5m grant funding in December.

    Goldney slammed the lack of monetary support available to businesses in England that are facing the same challenges as those north of the border.

    In England, wholesalers are eligible to apply for grants via their local authority, which are worth up to £10k. Rivals in Scotland have been awarded in excess of £100k to help combat similar losses caused by the pandemic."
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Trigger warning... the first EU uniformed service appears.

    https://twitter.com/Frontex/status/1348653085422460929

    The chip bag hat makes them look like Thunderbirds or, worse, the RAF and the tie isn't exactly practical when kicking reffos back in to the Med. Other than that, it looks pretty good.

    They have a corker of a budget - 400 million.

    I love that one of the operations is "Moria Hotspot". Keep those dwarves and Elf Queens out.

    Actually refugee camps on Lesbos.
    This is on of the few ways that you can do fiscal transfers without upsetting the less cosmopolitan-minded taxpayers in northern Europe.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,398
    edited January 2021
    algarkirk said:

    Alistair said:

    Don't American lawyers have a cab rank rule?

    Only for court appointed lawyers.
    BTW The old English cab rank rule applied to barristers not solicitors. Does it still exist?

    Yes - the Times made reference to it earlier this week when talking about the barrister off to Hong Kong (and whether it had been used for this case or not).

    The article implied it wasn't the case but it was a hell of a get out clause if it did.
  • Roger said:
    That incident being recounted on R4 right now!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,361

    Christ...hardly recognisable...more seriously though, after Boris week long being a fatty is bad against covid, that message has totally gone by the wayside, a guess like a lot of people lockdown fitness routine. I am not massively into the nanny state, regulate our food, but we do need a much bigger push on hiw being over weight is really bad for you and end of this nonsense that you can be and still fit and healthy.

    https://twitter.com/DJWarburton/status/1349706685175255042?s=19

    Well done him. If we could get the rest of the over weight population to do the same... Hence my advocacy of a Vitality style rewards-for-exercise0and-fitness program.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    edited January 2021
    about the delay in the new rule requiring travellers to provide proof of a negative Covid-19 test before departure to England.

    The policy was originally scheduled for come into force this morning but will now start on Monday at 04:00 GMT.

    "It’s simply a matter of practicality," Shapps told BBC Radio 4's Today programme. "There are over 200 countries and territories in the world they all are using different types of coronavirus tests.

    "We needed to check them all in order to be able to inform people which ones would be adequate to meet our very exacting standards."

    He adds that travellers "from just about anywhere" should be quarantining on arrival anyway, with the pre-departure test "only a secondary check

    ----------

    I have this crazy idea...stay will me.....close the border....except for a few key roles, who have to isolate in hotels on arrival...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,588
    Have they never heard of backing up data? Usually it's the first thing you learn in computing.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9149609/Labour-demands-answers-police-data-accidentally-wiped.html
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,123
    Whoever Trump selects to be his legal team I expect the impeachment vote to go largely along party lines still anyway.

    That means it will still be difficult to get the 2/3 majority to convict him, though a simple majority to disbar him from running for public office in the future might be possible
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Don't American lawyers have a cab rank rule?

    That's how he ended up with Guiliani
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    edited January 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Have they never heard of backing up data? Usually it's the first thing you learn in computing.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9149609/Labour-demands-answers-police-data-accidentally-wiped.html

    We really need to just sack everybody in the home office / justice and start again. Is there a more disfunctional department(s) over the past 25 years?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    edited January 2021
    No idea how all these footballers get covid...

    James McClean: Stoke suspend winger for alleged Covid guidelines breach -

    A club statement said a disciplinary hearing would be held into an allegation that the 31-year-old had been training in a private gym

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55674055
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Roger said:
    That incident being recounted on R4 right now!
    Yes it is. I like his eclectic taste in music
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:
    I'm old enough to remember the time when any claim from 'Remainers' that Brexit would lead to worse worker's rights was dismissed as fear-mongering nonsense.

    I start my employment law module in February. Quite looking forward to it actually.
  • Dan Lawrence juat done a Joe Root.....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,361

    Andy_JS said:

    Have they never heard of backing up data? Usually it's the first thing you learn in computing.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9149609/Labour-demands-answers-police-data-accidentally-wiped.html

    We really need to just sack everybody in the home office / justice and start again. Is there a more disfunctional department(s) over the past 25 years?
    I recall being told by a quite sensible, senior civil servant, that various standard IT practises were "un-professional", "not suitable for government" and "harmful".

    This included such crazy ideas as setting up test frameworks *before* development starts.

    My explanation of Agile, caused the same reaction that introducing a particularly large tarantula does, to some people.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,398
    HYUFD said:

    Whoever Trump selects to be his legal team I expect the impeachment vote to go largely along party lines still anyway.

    That means it will still be difficult to get the 2/3 majority to convict him, though a simple majority to disbar him from running for public office in the future might be possible

    I don't think the issue is Trump selecting his legal team - it's Trump finding people willing to take on the role of being his legal team.
  • I wonder how the reports that he's trying to stiff Giuliani and not pay him will affect future potential lawyers decision making on whether to take him as a client or not? 🤔
  • I wonder if Mrs Whiplash will be able to restrain herself from bullying the workforce this morning?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Whoever Trump selects to be his legal team I expect the impeachment vote to go largely along party lines still anyway.

    That means it will still be difficult to get the 2/3 majority to convict him, though a simple majority to disbar him from running for public office in the future might be possible

    I don't think the issue is Trump selecting his legal team - it's Trump finding people willing to take on the role of being his legal team.
    I'm sure he can pardon a few people to fill the gaps.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    edited January 2021

    Roger said:
    That incident being recounted on R4 right now!
    Thanks. Just tuned in. He’s a brilliant communicator. His series in which two centuries of social history were seen by tracing the occupants of a single Liverpool house is just superb.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,123

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Though he was standing for the Tories in Glasgow Pollok, a seat less likely to elect a Tory MSP it would be hard to find
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,893

    Andy_JS said:

    Have they never heard of backing up data? Usually it's the first thing you learn in computing.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9149609/Labour-demands-answers-police-data-accidentally-wiped.html

    We really need to just sack everybody in the home office / justice and start again. Is there a more dysfunctional department(s) over the past 25 years?
    I don't know why you're picking on the civil service - I've heard similar nonsense in the private sector.

    It seems we're now dredging up this old "private good, public bad" nonsense from the 1980s and 1990s.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Though he was standing for the Tories in Glasgow Pollok, a seat less likely to elect a Tory MSP it would be hard to find
    Isn’t that the kind of seat you need to stand in to be eligible to stand in Epping Forest in the future?
  • Scott_xP said:
    Did Bozo put his chum Dido in charge of this?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,210
    He needs a WWC Trumpy equivalent of Johnnie Cochran. There must be one.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    edited January 2021
    BBC Newsnight ran the most ridiculous piece last night...."do the government need to rethink the vaccine strategy"

    And wark interview with Zahawi was full on "what you saying is"...no...i have not or am I saying that.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,398
    Omnium said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Whoever Trump selects to be his legal team I expect the impeachment vote to go largely along party lines still anyway.

    That means it will still be difficult to get the 2/3 majority to convict him, though a simple majority to disbar him from running for public office in the future might be possible

    I don't think the issue is Trump selecting his legal team - it's Trump finding people willing to take on the role of being his legal team.
    I'm sure he can pardon a few people to fill the gaps.
    Thanks for the pardon - but on subsequent consideration I'm too busy to help.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,893
    HYUFD said:

    Whoever Trump selects to be his legal team I expect the impeachment vote to go largely along party lines still anyway.

    That means it will still be difficult to get the 2/3 majority to convict him, though a simple majority to disbar him from running for public office in the future might be possible

    That means the first 100 days of Biden's Presidency, when he was the political capital to get things done, end up being all about his predecessor and the Senate arguing about that instead of getting to grips with Covid and the other issues facing the United States quite apart from re-engaging with the rest of the world.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    edited January 2021
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Have they never heard of backing up data? Usually it's the first thing you learn in computing.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9149609/Labour-demands-answers-police-data-accidentally-wiped.html

    We really need to just sack everybody in the home office / justice and start again. Is there a more dysfunctional department(s) over the past 25 years?
    I don't know why you're picking on the civil service - I've heard similar nonsense in the private sector.

    It seems we're now dredging up this old "private good, public bad" nonsense from the 1980s and 1990s.
    Because that particular department is f##k up after f##k up in a way you don't see in other departments. Under Labour and Tories that department has a similar type of absolute f##k up every 6 months.

    Its not public vs private sector, is it that department.
  • kinabalu said:

    He needs a WWC Trumpy equivalent of Johnnie Cochran. There must be one.

    It is a pity Robert Kardashian is no longer with us.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,123
    edited January 2021

    HYUFD said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Though he was standing for the Tories in Glasgow Pollok, a seat less likely to elect a Tory MSP it would be hard to find
    Isn’t that the kind of seat you need to stand in to be eligible to stand in Epping Forest in the future?
    If I was on the parliamentary candidates list and stood for a non winnable seat first it would likely be in inner or East London.

    Though a colleague who is a local councillor stood in Hull for her first go in 2019
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221
    Democrats not quite as naive as they once were.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/14/biden-federal-pandemic-response-expansion-459473
    ...despite the mounting health crisis and Biden’s overriding goal of crafting a bipartisan response, Democrats are bracing for his team to hit immediate resistance.

    One senior Senate Democratic aide said while cobbling together 60 votes for the package isn’t “outside the realm of possibility,” Democrats “won’t have a ton of patience for political games” and are preparing now to use the budget reconciliation process to pass the bill with only Democratic votes if necessary.

    “I think a lot of Democrats have etched in their brain the ‘Lucy and the football’ incident we had with the Affordable Care Act,” the aide said, referencing the months Democrats spent fruitlessly trying to win GOP votes for the bill in 2010....
  • No idea how all these footballers get covid...

    James McClean: Stoke suspend winger for alleged Covid guidelines breach -

    A club statement said a disciplinary hearing would be held into an allegation that the 31-year-old had been training in a private gym

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55674055

    Just vaccinate all the sodding footballers (as previously posted).
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    HYUFD said:
    No doubt they will come up with some more War on Woke nonsense to distract the masses while they cut their pay and conditions.
  • kinabalu said:

    He needs a WWC Trumpy equivalent of Johnnie Cochran. There must be one.

    ‘It is almost impossible for an orange man to receive justice in this country’
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,712
    edited January 2021
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    This would seem to justify the decision to delay the booster in order to vaccinate as many as possible as quickly as possible.
    It is still essential that everyone gets the booster.

    https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1349850058221563904

    Because of the paywall I cannot read the story. The first paragraphs do say a 33% drop in infections in 200 000 over 60's compared with controls in the 3rd week. That isn't a 90% drop, and of course they had the next dose at that point.

    Is there something elsewhere in the article supporting delaying the booster?
    There's rather more information here:
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-well-does-the-vaccine-work-israels-real-world-stats-can-be-globes-guide/
    ...“Graphs diverge on day 14 with a 33% decline among the vaccinated elderly, without a similar trend among the unvaccinated,” he said. He added that more information would be forthcoming from more detailed peer-reviewed studies currently underway.

    Maccabi reported that the rate of infection decreased from about 40 out of 100,000 people in the first 12 days after vaccination to about 15 per 100,000 on days 13 to 21 — a 60% reduction.

    It’s unclear exactly why the figures vary, but one factor appears to be the fact that Maccabi included vaccinated people of all ages in its study, while Clalit didn’t...


    Couple of points, though.
    First, this is levels of infection diverging in the third week, as the immune system response ramps up. I'm not sure why you'd expect it to be 90% at that point in any event ?
    Second, the 33% is the figure for the elderly patients. What figure would you expect for that cohort in the third week even if the vaccine were 90% effective overall ?
    Well, we were told that the first dose gives 90% protection by the third week. If it is only 33% in the over 60s (our target group) then it does look as if the second dose is needed for proper protection.

    They weren't just minor infections either, according to the Times of Israel:

    "Alroy-Preis said that nearly one-fifth of over 1,000 current serious COVID-19 patients had previously received the first dose of Pfizer’s vaccine — stressing the need to continue to protect oneself after receiving the shot."

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-data-shows-50-reduction-in-infections-14-days-after-first-vaccine-shot/
  • No idea how all these footballers get covid...

    James McClean: Stoke suspend winger for alleged Covid guidelines breach -

    A club statement said a disciplinary hearing would be held into an allegation that the 31-year-old had been training in a private gym

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55674055

    Just vaccinate all the sodding footballers (as previously posted).
    And make them pay for it.....
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,893
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Though he was standing for the Tories in Glasgow Pollok, a seat less likely to elect a Tory MSP it would be hard to find
    Isn’t that the kind of seat you need to stand in to be eligible to stand in Epping Forest in the future?
    If I was on the parliamentary candidates list and stood for a non winnable seat first it would likely be in inner or East London.

    Though a colleague who is a local councillor stood in Hull for her first go in 2019
    Might we see you in East Ham at the next General Election?

    Stephen Timms is clinging on by his fingertips, well, 33,000 majority but it was slashed last December from nearly 40,000 and his vote share was well under 80% so it's almost a marginal.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,123
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Though he was standing for the Tories in Glasgow Pollok, a seat less likely to elect a Tory MSP it would be hard to find
    Isn’t that the kind of seat you need to stand in to be eligible to stand in Epping Forest in the future?
    If I was on the parliamentary candidates list and stood for a non winnable seat first it would likely be in inner or East London.

    Though a colleague who is a local councillor stood in Hull for her first go in 2019
    Might we see you in East Ham at the next General Election?

    Stephen Timms is clinging on by his fingertips, well, 33,000 majority but it was slashed last December from nearly 40,000 and his vote share was well under 80% so it's almost a marginal.
    All hypothetical, I would firstly have to get on the parliamentary candidates list which I probably wouldn't even try for unless I got elected as a councillor beforehand
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,712
    Incidentally, it seems that Rayner is not happy with the SLAB hijinks.

    https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1349809883181441024?s=19
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Whoever Trump selects to be his legal team I expect the impeachment vote to go largely along party lines still anyway.

    That means it will still be difficult to get the 2/3 majority to convict him, though a simple majority to disbar him from running for public office in the future might be possible

    That means the first 100 days of Biden's Presidency, when he was the political capital to get things done, end up being all about his predecessor and the Senate arguing about that instead of getting to grips with Covid and the other issues facing the United States quite apart from re-engaging with the rest of the world.
    Its rough, as he really does need to face consequences and that is important. But from Bidens point of view it's a headache.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,893


    Because that particular department is f##k up after f##k up in a way you don't see in other departments. Under Labour and Tories that department has a similar type of absolute f##k up every 6 months.

    Its not public vs private sector, is it that department.

    Perhaps one of the problems is the frequent change at the top of the department though to be fair Theresa May did just over 6 years in the job which is remarkable and made her the longest serving Home Secretary since Morrison (the Home Secretary not the supermarket).

    I do agree there's an argument for looking at the roles and the responsibilities - it covers a vast area of legislation.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    HYUFD said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Though he was standing for the Tories in Glasgow Pollok, a seat less likely to elect a Tory MSP it would be hard to find
    I am not sure where he is standing is the point, although claiming one's potential constituents to be unworthy, overweight peasants, could be counter productive. I suspect the issue of concern might simply be his lack of understanding, in claiming his potential constituents to be unworthy, overweight peasants.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Andy_JS said:

    Have they never heard of backing up data? Usually it's the first thing you learn in computing.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9149609/Labour-demands-answers-police-data-accidentally-wiped.html

    We really need to just sack everybody in the home office / justice and start again. Is there a more disfunctional department(s) over the past 25 years?
    Education?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    No doubt they will come up with some more War on Woke nonsense to distract the masses while they cut their pay and conditions.
    I am a bit wary about this.

    Starmer has quite sensibly voted for the Brexit Deal so Brexit has been completed and avoided getting drawn too much into Wokery, the problem is with Brexit now done and Corbyn gone Labour voters who switched to the Tories in 2019 may well go back to Labour now if they see the Tories as not pushing an agenda for them.

    Policies like scrapping the 48 hour week may go down well with the Tory core vote in the South of England but they will not go down well with ex Labour voters in the North and Midlands and Wales ie the RedWall.

    By all means we don't want the disaster of the 35 hour week the French have had but I have no great issue with a 48 hour week.
    That you are wary suggests to me the leadership need to roll back, fast.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,893
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Though he was standing for the Tories in Glasgow Pollok, a seat less likely to elect a Tory MSP it would be hard to find
    Isn’t that the kind of seat you need to stand in to be eligible to stand in Epping Forest in the future?
    If I was on the parliamentary candidates list and stood for a non winnable seat first it would likely be in inner or East London.

    Though a colleague who is a local councillor stood in Hull for her first go in 2019
    Might we see you in East Ham at the next General Election?

    Stephen Timms is clinging on by his fingertips, well, 33,000 majority but it was slashed last December from nearly 40,000 and his vote share was well under 80% so it's almost a marginal.
    All hypothetical, I would firstly have to get on the parliamentary candidates list which I probably wouldn't even try for unless I got elected as a councillor beforehand
    There are no Conservative Councillors in East Ham to be worried about of course. I don't think your predecessor as the Conservative candidate was a Councillor either - I think he was a Constituency Chair and Chair of the SE London Conservatives.

    It may not be as much of a prerequisite as you suppose.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,123
    edited January 2021
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Though he was standing for the Tories in Glasgow Pollok, a seat less likely to elect a Tory MSP it would be hard to find
    Isn’t that the kind of seat you need to stand in to be eligible to stand in Epping Forest in the future?
    If I was on the parliamentary candidates list and stood for a non winnable seat first it would likely be in inner or East London.

    Though a colleague who is a local councillor stood in Hull for her first go in 2019
    Might we see you in East Ham at the next General Election?

    Stephen Timms is clinging on by his fingertips, well, 33,000 majority but it was slashed last December from nearly 40,000 and his vote share was well under 80% so it's almost a marginal.
    At least if you stand in East Ham, where the Tories got just 15% in 2019, you have a good chance of telling CCHQ in 2024 'I increased the Tory voteshare against the national trend.' So there is that
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    eek said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Clearly he misses out the fact - cheap food = full of sugar and other crap to keep costs down.

    The only difference between now and the 19th century is that then cheap food was poor quality and often featured things that weren't food (so you were under weight). Now it contains calories that aren't easy to burn off.
    Anna Soubry ran into a similar controversy when she was public health minister - people could see the point she was trying to make, but the image of going around eyeing constituents and classifying them as poor by being fat haunted her for some time.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/fat-lot-good-will-do-minister-loses-health-argument-stereotyping-poor-8463929.html
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    Scott_xP said:
    Did Bozo put his chum Dido in charge of this?
    Losing petabytes of security data is for little people.

    Harding has moved on and upwards to spaffing billions up the wall on moonshots.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    No doubt they will come up with some more War on Woke nonsense to distract the masses while they cut their pay and conditions.
    I am a bit wary about this.

    Starmer has quite sensibly voted for the Brexit Deal so Brexit has been completed and avoided getting drawn too much into Wokery, the problem is with Brexit now done and Corbyn gone Labour voters who switched to the Tories in 2019 may well go back to Labour now if they see the Tories as not pushing an agenda for them.

    Policies like scrapping the 48 hour week may go down well with the Tory core vote in the South of England but they will not go down well with ex Labour voters in the North and Midlands and Wales ie the RedWall.

    By all means we don't want the disaster of the 35 hour week the French have had but I have no great issue with a 48 hour week.
    I have this theory for 2024 to keep the red wall onboard.

    If the economy looks horrendous and Starmer is on for a majority, offer them a referendum on the restoration of capital punishment. Landslide, nailed on. The question is are Johnson or his successor that cynical?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,123
    Andy_JS said:

    Have they never heard of backing up data? Usually it's the first thing you learn in computing.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9149609/Labour-demands-answers-police-data-accidentally-wiped.html

    It depends when it was deleted though, to ensure you can retrieve backed up data you cannot leave it too long
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,361

    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Have they never heard of backing up data? Usually it's the first thing you learn in computing.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9149609/Labour-demands-answers-police-data-accidentally-wiped.html

    We really need to just sack everybody in the home office / justice and start again. Is there a more dysfunctional department(s) over the past 25 years?
    I don't know why you're picking on the civil service - I've heard similar nonsense in the private sector.

    It seems we're now dredging up this old "private good, public bad" nonsense from the 1980s and 1990s.
    Because that particular department is f##k up after f##k up in a way you don't see in other departments. Under Labour and Tories that department has a similar type of absolute f##k up every 6 months.

    Its not public vs private sector, is it that department.
    Well, there are other issues. For example - the deletion of data. One modern approach is to never delete data - just marked it as ignorable. But then you hit the legal requirement to actually delete data for the Home Office.

    Given some past incidents where illegally collected (and retained) data was retained in the police databases, this is sensible. From a civil liberties point of view.

    The broader issue is incredibly fragmented systems, held together with duct tape. The problem with updating is that the designs seem to end up with mad, gargantuan ideas of integrating everything into one Minority Report style system.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    No doubt they will come up with some more War on Woke nonsense to distract the masses while they cut their pay and conditions.
    I am a bit wary about this.

    Starmer has quite sensibly voted for the Brexit Deal so Brexit has been completed and avoided getting drawn too much into Wokery, the problem is with Brexit now done and Corbyn gone Labour voters who switched to the Tories in 2019 may well go back to Labour now if they see the Tories as not pushing an agenda for them.

    Policies like scrapping the 48 hour week may go down well with the Tory core vote in the South of England but they will not go down well with ex Labour voters in the North and Midlands and Wales ie the RedWall.

    By all means we don't want the disaster of the 35 hour week the French have had but I have no great issue with a 48 hour week.
    I am glad you are wary, maybe there is a limit to the Tories' ability to persuade people to vote against their own economic self interest after all.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,398

    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Have they never heard of backing up data? Usually it's the first thing you learn in computing.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9149609/Labour-demands-answers-police-data-accidentally-wiped.html

    We really need to just sack everybody in the home office / justice and start again. Is there a more dysfunctional department(s) over the past 25 years?
    I don't know why you're picking on the civil service - I've heard similar nonsense in the private sector.

    It seems we're now dredging up this old "private good, public bad" nonsense from the 1980s and 1990s.
    Because that particular department is f##k up after f##k up in a way you don't see in other departments. Under Labour and Tories that department has a similar type of absolute f##k up every 6 months.

    Its not public vs private sector, is it that department.
    It's also very much a screw up that shouldn't occur.

    I can see the point of it and how it all works but this is the reason why you have backups so you can recover the data when you f*** up.

    And this is also a obvious scenario that should be documented and tested.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    Dan Lawrence juat done a Joe Root.....

    England have really slowed down since that well known blocker Buttler came to the crease.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Whoever Trump selects to be his legal team I expect the impeachment vote to go largely along party lines still anyway.

    That means it will still be difficult to get the 2/3 majority to convict him, though a simple majority to disbar him from running for public office in the future might be possible

    That means the first 100 days of Biden's Presidency, when he was the political capital to get things done, end up being all about his predecessor and the Senate arguing about that instead of getting to grips with Covid and the other issues facing the United States quite apart from re-engaging with the rest of the world.
    Yes, I think the Democrats should play it long, can't see any advantage in letting it dominate the early days of Biden. Under US law, can people represent themselves? I can see Trump quite fancying that.Otherwise, I hope he gets reasonable representation - everyone's entitled to it, and I imagine there are plenty of ambitious young barristers who'd be glad to make a name as willing to tackle even the hardest cases.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,893


    One of the big failings of the government this last year has been the lack of a general public health campaign.

    Public health generally has suffered in recent years. Part of it was a backlash against the "nanny State" (or the perception of it). I remember the public health and information films of my childhood such as the late and much missed Dave Prowse as the Green Cross Code Man.

    As you say, we need a revolution in public health campaigning and I'd include mental health as well as physical health in that.

    I've argued the mental health recovery from Covid-19 is as important and requires the same degree of planning and resources as has gone into the physical recovery through the vaccination campaign and the resources pent improving care for those in hospital.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    edited January 2021

    Christ...hardly recognisable...more seriously though, after Boris week long being a fatty is bad against covid, that message has totally gone by the wayside, a guess like a lot of people lockdown fitness routine. I am not massively into the nanny state, regulate our food, but we do need a much bigger push on hiw being over weight is really bad for you and end of this nonsense that you can be and still fit and healthy.

    https://twitter.com/DJWarburton/status/1349706685175255042?s=19

    One of the big failings of the government this last year has been the lack of a general public health campaign.
    Agreed. In the first lockdown I cut out alcohol completely and exercised enough to lose 30 lbs.. Since then, and in particular since the weather got bad I have taken up the alcohol again and regained 20 lbs.. I am trying to do something about it but its really hard when you are stuck at home all the time, the weather and pavements are terrible and there are snacks everywhere. I am, sadly, much less ready for the dreaded lurgy than I was in May.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,361

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Whoever Trump selects to be his legal team I expect the impeachment vote to go largely along party lines still anyway.

    That means it will still be difficult to get the 2/3 majority to convict him, though a simple majority to disbar him from running for public office in the future might be possible

    That means the first 100 days of Biden's Presidency, when he was the political capital to get things done, end up being all about his predecessor and the Senate arguing about that instead of getting to grips with Covid and the other issues facing the United States quite apart from re-engaging with the rest of the world.
    Yes, I think the Democrats should play it long, can't see any advantage in letting it dominate the early days of Biden. Under US law, can people represent themselves? I can see Trump quite fancying that.Otherwise, I hope he gets reasonable representation - everyone's entitled to it, and I imagine there are plenty of ambitious young barristers who'd be glad to make a name as willing to tackle even the hardest cases.
    Theres a big issue of social toxicity - a lot of stories going round about how having worked for Trump/the Trump presidency is now a "not hire" marker on your CV.

    If you were a lawyer, would you risk your career to be the guy who represented Trump in his second impeachment?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2021
    eek said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Clearly he misses out the fact - cheap food = full of sugar and other crap to keep costs down.

    The only difference between now and the 19th century is that then cheap food was poor quality and often featured things that weren't food (so you were under weight). Now it contains calories that aren't easy to burn off.
    If you were a one parent family with say two kids and struggling financially this would seem a cheap way to feed the family for three or four dinners

    https://www.aldi.co.uk/wholewheat-fusilli/p/082202239090300
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/chunky-chopped-tomatoes-in-juice/p/048727004006800 twice
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/british-chicken-breast-fillets/p/080499172907500

    £5.88 for probably half a weeks dinners
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,388
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    No doubt they will come up with some more War on Woke nonsense to distract the masses while they cut their pay and conditions.
    I am a bit wary about this.

    Starmer has quite sensibly voted for the Brexit Deal so Brexit has been completed and avoided getting drawn too much into Wokery, the problem is with Brexit now done and Corbyn gone Labour voters who switched to the Tories in 2019 may well go back to Labour now if they see the Tories as not pushing an agenda for them.

    Policies like scrapping the 48 hour week may go down well with the Tory core vote in the South of England but they will not go down well with ex Labour voters in the North and Midlands and Wales ie the RedWall.

    By all means we don't want the disaster of the 35 hour week the French have had but I have no great issue with a 48 hour week.
    Good analysis. Previously you've been very keen on citing the 2019 Conservative manifesto commitments in respect of Brexit. That same manifesto pledged to improve, or at least maintain, workers' rights. If proposals to weaken workers' rights gain traction, you could well find that the white working class that, as you say, has switched in significant numbers to the Tories recently may return to seeing Labour as their natural home. Any weakening of workers' rights is also likely to impact the midlands and north the most, in direct contradiction of the 'levelling up' agenda.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    @RochdalePioneers when if at all will all this chaos hit the supermarket shelves?

    It's already here. Even if we ignore the mess in Northern Ireland, there are increasing gaps in supply across GB as well.

    Ocado are the latest to warn of growing cross-offs and substitutions.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/brexit-supermarket-food-shortages-covid-b1786175.html
    Thanks interesting - yesterday I was doing an ocado and plenty "out of stock".
  • eek said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Clearly he misses out the fact - cheap food = full of sugar and other crap to keep costs down.

    The only difference between now and the 19th century is that then cheap food was poor quality and often featured things that weren't food (so you were under weight). Now it contains calories that aren't easy to burn off.
    Anna Soubry ran into a similar controversy when she was public health minister - people could see the point she was trying to make, but the image of going around eyeing constituents and classifying them as poor by being fat haunted her for some time.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/fat-lot-good-will-do-minister-loses-health-argument-stereotyping-poor-8463929.html
    She had the ability to 'rub people up the wrong way' but the underlying point was right.

    Almost half of the fast-food outlets in England are in the most deprived parts of the country, figures show, raising fresh concerns about child obesity in poorer areas.

    The most affluent 10% of England is home to just 3% of fast-food restaurants, chip shops and burger bars, and the poorest decile has 17%, according to the data from Public Health England (PHE).

    Of the 51,460 fast-food outlets in England, 24,072 (47%) are in the poorest 30% of the country.

    In light of the disparity, the health agency has called on local authorities to consider restricting the growth of fast-food outlets near schools, parks and other places where children gather, citing concerns about child obesity in deprived areas.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jun/29/poorer-areas-of-england-have-more-fast-food-shops-figures-show

    Much of the food eaten in deprived areas is neither good quality nor cheap.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    isam said:

    eek said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Clearly he misses out the fact - cheap food = full of sugar and other crap to keep costs down.

    The only difference between now and the 19th century is that then cheap food was poor quality and often featured things that weren't food (so you were under weight). Now it contains calories that aren't easy to burn off.
    If you were a one parent family with say two kids and struggling financially this would seem a cheap way to feed the family for three or four dinners

    https://www.aldi.co.uk/wholewheat-fusilli/p/082202239090300
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/chunky-chopped-tomatoes-in-juice/p/048727004006800 twice
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/british-chicken-breast-fillets/p/080499172907500

    £5.88 for probably half a weeks dinners
    500g of pasta, one tin of tomatoes and 1kg of chicken is not going to provide 12 dinners, unless they are all for Tiny Tim. What planet are you on?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Christ...hardly recognisable...more seriously though, after Boris week long being a fatty is bad against covid, that message has totally gone by the wayside, a guess like a lot of people lockdown fitness routine. I am not massively into the nanny state, regulate our food, but we do need a much bigger push on hiw being over weight is really bad for you and end of this nonsense that you can be and still fit and healthy.

    https://twitter.com/DJWarburton/status/1349706685175255042?s=19

    Brilliant. Really well done him. It is bastard difficult to lose weight is the reality.

    (But another one that seems to have skipped a few leg days. :smile: )
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,241
    edited January 2021

    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Have they never heard of backing up data? Usually it's the first thing you learn in computing.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9149609/Labour-demands-answers-police-data-accidentally-wiped.html

    We really need to just sack everybody in the home office / justice and start again. Is there a more dysfunctional department(s) over the past 25 years?
    I don't know why you're picking on the civil service - I've heard similar nonsense in the private sector.

    It seems we're now dredging up this old "private good, public bad" nonsense from the 1980s and 1990s.
    Because that particular department is f##k up after f##k up in a way you don't see in other departments. Under Labour and Tories that department has a similar type of absolute f##k up every 6 months.

    Its not public vs private sector, is it that department.
    Well, there are other issues. For example - the deletion of data. One modern approach is to never delete data - just marked it as ignorable. But then you hit the legal requirement to actually delete data for the Home Office.

    Given some past incidents where illegally collected (and retained) data was retained in the police databases, this is sensible. From a civil liberties point of view.

    The broader issue is incredibly fragmented systems, held together with duct tape. The problem with updating is that the designs seem to end up with mad, gargantuan ideas of integrating everything into one Minority Report style system.
    Here's a chap who managed to get a Court ruling that inappropriately retained data was a breach of Rights. In Feb 2020.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-51486511

    This was a drink drive offender who's conviction 2008 was spent in 2013. 1 year disqualification.

    He started his legal action in 2009.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-51486511

    Now if a drunk driver should not have his DNA retained, how much truer is that for people who are only guilty of not being charged with a crime?

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2021

    eek said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Clearly he misses out the fact - cheap food = full of sugar and other crap to keep costs down.

    The only difference between now and the 19th century is that then cheap food was poor quality and often featured things that weren't food (so you were under weight). Now it contains calories that aren't easy to burn off.
    Anna Soubry ran into a similar controversy when she was public health minister - people could see the point she was trying to make, but the image of going around eyeing constituents and classifying them as poor by being fat haunted her for some time.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/fat-lot-good-will-do-minister-loses-health-argument-stereotyping-poor-8463929.html
    She had the ability to 'rub people up the wrong way' but the underlying point was right.

    Almost half of the fast-food outlets in England are in the most deprived parts of the country, figures show, raising fresh concerns about child obesity in poorer areas.

    The most affluent 10% of England is home to just 3% of fast-food restaurants, chip shops and burger bars, and the poorest decile has 17%, according to the data from Public Health England (PHE).

    Of the 51,460 fast-food outlets in England, 24,072 (47%) are in the poorest 30% of the country.

    In light of the disparity, the health agency has called on local authorities to consider restricting the growth of fast-food outlets near schools, parks and other places where children gather, citing concerns about child obesity in deprived areas.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jun/29/poorer-areas-of-england-have-more-fast-food-shops-figures-show

    Much of the food eaten in deprived areas is neither good quality nor cheap.
    People probably wont believe this, but my girlfriend, who was on FSM growing up, works at a school where 88% of the kids are on them, and cant believe the way middle class dupes fall for the poverty porn. The kids all have the latest phones and spend every lunchtime at the chicken shop - Tories should be worried about being shamed into falling for the craftiness of some unscrupulous "poor" people, that the job of soppy lefties
  • No messing about in China...

    Meanwhile, more than 20,000 rural residents in the region have been sent to state-run quarantine facilities.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    No doubt they will come up with some more War on Woke nonsense to distract the masses while they cut their pay and conditions.
    I am a bit wary about this.

    Starmer has quite sensibly voted for the Brexit Deal so Brexit has been completed and avoided getting drawn too much into Wokery, the problem is with Brexit now done and Corbyn gone Labour voters who switched to the Tories in 2019 may well go back to Labour now if they see the Tories as not pushing an agenda for them.

    Policies like scrapping the 48 hour week may go down well with the Tory core vote in the South of England but they will not go down well with ex Labour voters in the North and Midlands and Wales ie the RedWall.

    By all means we don't want the disaster of the 35 hour week the French have had but I have no great issue with a 48 hour week.
    Good analysis. Previously you've been very keen on citing the 2019 Conservative manifesto commitments in respect of Brexit. That same manifesto pledged to improve, or at least maintain, workers' rights. If proposals to weaken workers' rights gain traction, you could well find that the white working class that, as you say, has switched in significant numbers to the Tories recently may return to seeing Labour as their natural home. Any weakening of workers' rights is also likely to impact the midlands and north the most, in direct contradiction of the 'levelling up' agenda.
    Almost as if "levelling up" is an empty slogan designed to distract while the government does the exact opposite.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    No doubt they will come up with some more War on Woke nonsense to distract the masses while they cut their pay and conditions.
    I am a bit wary about this.

    Starmer has quite sensibly voted for the Brexit Deal so Brexit has been completed and avoided getting drawn too much into Wokery, the problem is with Brexit now done and Corbyn gone Labour voters who switched to the Tories in 2019 may well go back to Labour now if they see the Tories as not pushing an agenda for them.

    Policies like scrapping the 48 hour week may go down well with the Tory core vote in the South of England but they will not go down well with ex Labour voters in the North and Midlands and Wales ie the RedWall.

    By all means we don't want the disaster of the 35 hour week the French have had but I have no great issue with a 48 hour week.
    Hasnt the world moved on from this debate? If you need to work more than 48 hours you just need to sign a form, its not onerous. Should a business be able to force someone to over a long period - it will very rarely be in their interest to force someone to do so.

    I worked 60 hr weeks for a couple of years when I first joined the workplace as I wanted the money, but would not encourage people working for me to do the same (except in short burst if necessary). The evidence is pretty overwhelming that performance and quality dips significantly once you go much over 50 hours a week as a long term average.

    In the jobs where performance matters less there are tax advantages in having multiple people share the work out.

    Who does this policy actually help? Bad employers think it helps them but it will probably just limit them.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    No doubt they will come up with some more War on Woke nonsense to distract the masses while they cut their pay and conditions.
    I am a bit wary about this.

    Starmer has quite sensibly voted for the Brexit Deal so Brexit has been completed and avoided getting drawn too much into Wokery, the problem is with Brexit now done and Corbyn gone Labour voters who switched to the Tories in 2019 may well go back to Labour now if they see the Tories as not pushing an agenda for them.

    Policies like scrapping the 48 hour week may go down well with the Tory core vote in the South of England but they will not go down well with ex Labour voters in the North and Midlands and Wales ie the RedWall.

    By all means we don't want the disaster of the 35 hour week the French have had but I have no great issue with a 48 hour week.
    I am glad you are wary, maybe there is a limit to the Tories' ability to persuade people to vote against their own economic self interest after all.
    The reality is though that employees can and do contract out of the Working Time Directive most of the time. In my experience it really only impacts on people who have time limits on their work for other reasons such as lorry drivers. For the rest it is another pointless bit of bureaucracy that can be a bit of a nuisance in respect of shift patterns.

    The further reality is that tired workers have chronic productivity. Its simply not in the employer's interest to have people working long hours and producing relatively little.

    Can I rule out any exploitation or abuse by employers completely? Probably not but would such employers have paid much attention to the rules anyway?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    eek said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Clearly he misses out the fact - cheap food = full of sugar and other crap to keep costs down.

    The only difference between now and the 19th century is that then cheap food was poor quality and often featured things that weren't food (so you were under weight). Now it contains calories that aren't easy to burn off.
    If you were a one parent family with say two kids and struggling financially this would seem a cheap way to feed the family for three or four dinners

    https://www.aldi.co.uk/wholewheat-fusilli/p/082202239090300
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/chunky-chopped-tomatoes-in-juice/p/048727004006800 twice
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/british-chicken-breast-fillets/p/080499172907500

    £5.88 for probably half a weeks dinners
    500g of pasta, one tin of tomatoes and 1kg of chicken is not going to provide 12 dinners, unless they are all for Tiny Tim. What planet are you on?
    Two tins of tomatoes.

    I am on planet normal - that could easily make one adult and two kids half a weeks dinners

  • HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Have they never heard of backing up data? Usually it's the first thing you learn in computing.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9149609/Labour-demands-answers-police-data-accidentally-wiped.html

    It depends when it was deleted though, to ensure you can retrieve backed up data you cannot leave it too long
    As someone who used to help customers with this, it is sometimes hard to focus on why data is backed up. What are you guarding against? The question matters more than it used to. Protecting against hardware failure is not the same as protection against accidental deletion which is not the same as deliberate deletion which is different from malware insertion which is different from vandalism or theft. But it used to be almost the same so have your practices kept up to date as data spread to SANs and then clouds?

    And if you have taken a tape backup every day for the past 10 years, what happens when there is a legal requirement (court order or gdpr request) to delete some data? How do you go back and delete it from all the backups? And suppose you make a mistake in doing so!

    Oh, and those ten years of tapes: do you even have a ten-year-old tape drive any more?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    No doubt they will come up with some more War on Woke nonsense to distract the masses while they cut their pay and conditions.
    I am a bit wary about this.

    Starmer has quite sensibly voted for the Brexit Deal so Brexit has been completed and avoided getting drawn too much into Wokery, the problem is with Brexit now done and Corbyn gone Labour voters who switched to the Tories in 2019 may well go back to Labour now if they see the Tories as not pushing an agenda for them.

    Policies like scrapping the 48 hour week may go down well with the Tory core vote in the South of England but they will not go down well with ex Labour voters in the North and Midlands and Wales ie the RedWall.

    By all means we don't want the disaster of the 35 hour week the French have had but I have no great issue with a 48 hour week.
    Good analysis. Previously you've been very keen on citing the 2019 Conservative manifesto commitments in respect of Brexit. That same manifesto pledged to improve, or at least maintain, workers' rights. If proposals to weaken workers' rights gain traction, you could well find that the white working class that, as you say, has switched in significant numbers to the Tories recently may return to seeing Labour as their natural home. Any weakening of workers' rights is also likely to impact the midlands and north the most, in direct contradiction of the 'levelling up' agenda.
    It has always been my view that the so-called "white-working class" switchers switched because they hated Corbyn, not because Brexit. Now there is no Corbyn, and if you want to believe it, no Brexit either. There is no real reason for them to vote any differently from the traditional red team. The Tories are also now completely stuffed as the party of the economy (their main USP). They just cannot claim that anymore. If Labour can position themselves as the party of sensible government as they did under Blair then the Tories (especially if they keep The Clown in place) are in big trouble
  • kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    No doubt they will come up with some more War on Woke nonsense to distract the masses while they cut their pay and conditions.
    I am a bit wary about this.

    Starmer has quite sensibly voted for the Brexit Deal so Brexit has been completed and avoided getting drawn too much into Wokery, the problem is with Brexit now done and Corbyn gone Labour voters who switched to the Tories in 2019 may well go back to Labour now if they see the Tories as not pushing an agenda for them.

    Policies like scrapping the 48 hour week may go down well with the Tory core vote in the South of England but they will not go down well with ex Labour voters in the North and Midlands and Wales ie the RedWall.

    By all means we don't want the disaster of the 35 hour week the French have had but I have no great issue with a 48 hour week.
    That you are wary suggests to me the leadership need to roll back, fast.
    Catch is the age profile not the core Conservative vote; although not all of then are retired, many of them are.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Have they never heard of backing up data? Usually it's the first thing you learn in computing.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9149609/Labour-demands-answers-police-data-accidentally-wiped.html

    We really need to just sack everybody in the home office / justice and start again. Is there a more disfunctional department(s) over the past 25 years?
    MOD Procurement.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,361
    isam said:

    eek said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Clearly he misses out the fact - cheap food = full of sugar and other crap to keep costs down.

    The only difference between now and the 19th century is that then cheap food was poor quality and often featured things that weren't food (so you were under weight). Now it contains calories that aren't easy to burn off.
    If you were a one parent family with say two kids and struggling financially this would seem a cheap way to feed the family for three or four dinners

    https://www.aldi.co.uk/wholewheat-fusilli/p/082202239090300
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/chunky-chopped-tomatoes-in-juice/p/048727004006800 twice
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/british-chicken-breast-fillets/p/080499172907500

    £5.88 for probably half a weeks dinners
    I think you underestimating the dislike of the new, of changing habits. Something you haven't done before. Without knowing the details here, my guess is that PB is biased towards the "self-starting" group. That is, people whose reaction to a problem, a challenge or something new is to roll their sleeves up, say "right" and give it a go.

    A large part of the population doesn't have that mental model. This isn't because they are bad people or useless. Partly it is innate attitude - but a major component is education and training for it.

    Otherwise the attitude of "I don't know about that", "It's not for the likes of us", "that looks odd/funny" is the cocoon that it is easy to retreat to when confronted with a change.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    Alistair said:

    Don't American lawyers have a cab rank rule?

    Only for court appointed lawyers.
    BTW The old English cab rank rule applied to barristers not solicitors. Does it still exist?

    Yes - the Times made reference to it earlier this week when talking about the barrister off to Hong Kong (and whether it had been used for this case or not).

    The article implied it wasn't the case but it was a hell of a get out clause if it did.
    Is this what a "Dock Brief" was?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    edited January 2021

    isam said:

    eek said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Clearly he misses out the fact - cheap food = full of sugar and other crap to keep costs down.

    The only difference between now and the 19th century is that then cheap food was poor quality and often featured things that weren't food (so you were under weight). Now it contains calories that aren't easy to burn off.
    If you were a one parent family with say two kids and struggling financially this would seem a cheap way to feed the family for three or four dinners

    https://www.aldi.co.uk/wholewheat-fusilli/p/082202239090300
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/chunky-chopped-tomatoes-in-juice/p/048727004006800 twice
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/british-chicken-breast-fillets/p/080499172907500

    £5.88 for probably half a weeks dinners
    I think you underestimating the dislike of the new, of changing habits. Something you haven't done before. Without knowing the details here, my guess is that PB is biased towards the "self-starting" group. That is, people whose reaction to a problem, a challenge or something new is to roll their sleeves up, say "right" and give it a go.

    A large part of the population doesn't have that mental model. This isn't because they are bad people or useless. Partly it is innate attitude - but a major component is education and training for it.

    Otherwise the attitude of "I don't know about that", "It's not for the likes of us", "that looks odd/funny" is the cocoon that it is easy to retreat to when confronted with a change.
    A simple example...

    Marcus Rashford revealed that when he was young, his mum told him if he was hungry, have a bowl of cereal. He said he used to eat 7-8 bowls of sugary cereal a day, until his coaches told him that was very bad idea. Not only unhealthy, very expensive.

    In comparison, Mrs U and I make overnight oats. Costs pennies, extremely filling. There are always containers in the fridge, as if we got into the routine of if we are making a coffee or whatever, we have all the raw ingredients to hand and just refill. Takes a couple of minutes. Habit formed. You can flavour them any which way you like from chocolatey via cocao powder to fruity.
  • isam said:

    eek said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Clearly he misses out the fact - cheap food = full of sugar and other crap to keep costs down.

    The only difference between now and the 19th century is that then cheap food was poor quality and often featured things that weren't food (so you were under weight). Now it contains calories that aren't easy to burn off.
    Anna Soubry ran into a similar controversy when she was public health minister - people could see the point she was trying to make, but the image of going around eyeing constituents and classifying them as poor by being fat haunted her for some time.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/fat-lot-good-will-do-minister-loses-health-argument-stereotyping-poor-8463929.html
    She had the ability to 'rub people up the wrong way' but the underlying point was right.

    Almost half of the fast-food outlets in England are in the most deprived parts of the country, figures show, raising fresh concerns about child obesity in poorer areas.

    The most affluent 10% of England is home to just 3% of fast-food restaurants, chip shops and burger bars, and the poorest decile has 17%, according to the data from Public Health England (PHE).

    Of the 51,460 fast-food outlets in England, 24,072 (47%) are in the poorest 30% of the country.

    In light of the disparity, the health agency has called on local authorities to consider restricting the growth of fast-food outlets near schools, parks and other places where children gather, citing concerns about child obesity in deprived areas.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jun/29/poorer-areas-of-england-have-more-fast-food-shops-figures-show

    Much of the food eaten in deprived areas is neither good quality nor cheap.
    People probably wont believe this, but my girlfriend, who was on FSM growing up, works at a school where 88% of the kids are on them, and cant believe the way middle class dupes fall for the poverty porn. The kids all have the latest phones and spend every lunchtime at the chicken shop - Tories should be worried about being shamed into falling for the craftiness of some unscrupulous "poor" people, that the job of soppy lefties
    Suppose you are right. So what? Should the government spend six months and millions of pounds setting up more and more sophisticated means tests, or just listen to Marcus and spend probably less money and certainly less time extending FSM?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462

    HYUFD said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Though he was standing for the Tories in Glasgow Pollok, a seat less likely to elect a Tory MSP it would be hard to find
    Isn’t that the kind of seat you need to stand in to be eligible to stand in Epping Forest in the future?
    The equivalent UK seat was held by the Tories as recently as 1967 (by-election gain, but not held at the subsequent GE).
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    eek said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Clearly he misses out the fact - cheap food = full of sugar and other crap to keep costs down.

    The only difference between now and the 19th century is that then cheap food was poor quality and often featured things that weren't food (so you were under weight). Now it contains calories that aren't easy to burn off.
    Anna Soubry ran into a similar controversy when she was public health minister - people could see the point she was trying to make, but the image of going around eyeing constituents and classifying them as poor by being fat haunted her for some time.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/fat-lot-good-will-do-minister-loses-health-argument-stereotyping-poor-8463929.html
    She had the ability to 'rub people up the wrong way' but the underlying point was right.

    Almost half of the fast-food outlets in England are in the most deprived parts of the country, figures show, raising fresh concerns about child obesity in poorer areas.

    The most affluent 10% of England is home to just 3% of fast-food restaurants, chip shops and burger bars, and the poorest decile has 17%, according to the data from Public Health England (PHE).

    Of the 51,460 fast-food outlets in England, 24,072 (47%) are in the poorest 30% of the country.

    In light of the disparity, the health agency has called on local authorities to consider restricting the growth of fast-food outlets near schools, parks and other places where children gather, citing concerns about child obesity in deprived areas.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jun/29/poorer-areas-of-england-have-more-fast-food-shops-figures-show

    Much of the food eaten in deprived areas is neither good quality nor cheap.
    People probably wont believe this, but my girlfriend, who was on FSM growing up, works at a school where 88% of the kids are on them, and cant believe the way middle class dupes fall for the poverty porn. The kids all have the latest phones and spend every lunchtime at the chicken shop - Tories should be worried about being shamed into falling for the craftiness of some unscrupulous "poor" people, that the job of soppy lefties
    Suppose you are right. So what? Should the government spend six months and millions of pounds setting up more and more sophisticated means tests, or just listen to Marcus and spend probably less money and certainly less time extending FSM?
    I don't consider your two options the only choices - Mine would be to make these people aware that you can feed a family of three well for less than £30 a week
  • eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    Alistair said:

    Don't American lawyers have a cab rank rule?

    Only for court appointed lawyers.
    BTW The old English cab rank rule applied to barristers not solicitors. Does it still exist?

    Yes - the Times made reference to it earlier this week when talking about the barrister off to Hong Kong (and whether it had been used for this case or not).

    The article implied it wasn't the case but it was a hell of a get out clause if it did.
    Is this what a "Dock Brief" was?
    A dock brief was (besides a play by John Mortimer, not very good iirc) different in that barristers had to voluntarily make themselves available for dock briefs (by hanging around in court all day) so not the same.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    isam said:

    eek said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Clearly he misses out the fact - cheap food = full of sugar and other crap to keep costs down.

    The only difference between now and the 19th century is that then cheap food was poor quality and often featured things that weren't food (so you were under weight). Now it contains calories that aren't easy to burn off.
    If you were a one parent family with say two kids and struggling financially this would seem a cheap way to feed the family for three or four dinners

    https://www.aldi.co.uk/wholewheat-fusilli/p/082202239090300
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/chunky-chopped-tomatoes-in-juice/p/048727004006800 twice
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/british-chicken-breast-fillets/p/080499172907500

    £5.88 for probably half a weeks dinners
    I hope they don't read the reviews of the chicken.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677


    MOD Procurement.

    Home of the £120 O ring...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,241

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    No doubt they will come up with some more War on Woke nonsense to distract the masses while they cut their pay and conditions.
    I am a bit wary about this.

    Starmer has quite sensibly voted for the Brexit Deal so Brexit has been completed and avoided getting drawn too much into Wokery, the problem is with Brexit now done and Corbyn gone Labour voters who switched to the Tories in 2019 may well go back to Labour now if they see the Tories as not pushing an agenda for them.

    Policies like scrapping the 48 hour week may go down well with the Tory core vote in the South of England but they will not go down well with ex Labour voters in the North and Midlands and Wales ie the RedWall.

    By all means we don't want the disaster of the 35 hour week the French have had but I have no great issue with a 48 hour week.
    Good analysis. Previously you've been very keen on citing the 2019 Conservative manifesto commitments in respect of Brexit. That same manifesto pledged to improve, or at least maintain, workers' rights. If proposals to weaken workers' rights gain traction, you could well find that the white working class that, as you say, has switched in significant numbers to the Tories recently may return to seeing Labour as their natural home. Any weakening of workers' rights is also likely to impact the midlands and north the most, in direct contradiction of the 'levelling up' agenda.
    It has always been my view that the so-called "white-working class" switchers switched because they hated Corbyn, not because Brexit. Now there is no Corbyn, and if you want to believe it, no Brexit either. There is no real reason for them to vote any differently from the traditional red team. The Tories are also now completely stuffed as the party of the economy (their main USP). They just cannot claim that anymore. If Labour can position themselves as the party of sensible government as they did under Blair then the Tories (especially if they keep The Clown in place) are in big trouble
    On Red Wall doorsteps it was both of those issues.

    One was "Corbyn. Pfffffft." The other was "We voted to leave - why haven't we left yet?"
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    isam said:

    isam said:

    eek said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Clearly he misses out the fact - cheap food = full of sugar and other crap to keep costs down.

    The only difference between now and the 19th century is that then cheap food was poor quality and often featured things that weren't food (so you were under weight). Now it contains calories that aren't easy to burn off.
    If you were a one parent family with say two kids and struggling financially this would seem a cheap way to feed the family for three or four dinners

    https://www.aldi.co.uk/wholewheat-fusilli/p/082202239090300
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/chunky-chopped-tomatoes-in-juice/p/048727004006800 twice
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/british-chicken-breast-fillets/p/080499172907500

    £5.88 for probably half a weeks dinners
    500g of pasta, one tin of tomatoes and 1kg of chicken is not going to provide 12 dinners, unless they are all for Tiny Tim. What planet are you on?
    Two tins of tomatoes.

    I am on planet normal - that could easily make one adult and two kids half a weeks dinners

    It works out at about 300 calories per meal for 12 meals. An adult needs 2000-2500 calories per day and a child aged 6-12 needs 1600-2200. So 300 for your main meal of the day looks pretty inadequate. I shop and cook for a family of five and I can tell you that your meal would do us for about one dinner, maybe with a bit left over. Our kids are far from fat (in fact most clothes don't fit them because they are too skinny) so we are definitely not overfeeding them.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,361
    Dura_Ace said:


    MOD Procurement.

    Home of the £120 O ring...
    Depends on what the O ring was for - aerospace grade? For that you want to be able to trace back to the gallery of the mine where the ore for the metal was mined.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232#Failed_component

    etc..
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    eek said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Clearly he misses out the fact - cheap food = full of sugar and other crap to keep costs down.

    The only difference between now and the 19th century is that then cheap food was poor quality and often featured things that weren't food (so you were under weight). Now it contains calories that aren't easy to burn off.
    If you were a one parent family with say two kids and struggling financially this would seem a cheap way to feed the family for three or four dinners

    https://www.aldi.co.uk/wholewheat-fusilli/p/082202239090300
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/chunky-chopped-tomatoes-in-juice/p/048727004006800 twice
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/british-chicken-breast-fillets/p/080499172907500

    £5.88 for probably half a weeks dinners
    I hope they don't read the reviews of the chicken.
    Yeah doesn't seem the best - Doubt it's much worse than the stuff in Shadwell Chicken Cottage though
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    ...

    isam said:

    isam said:

    eek said:

    Bloody hell man, first rule of SCon Club, don’t say what we really think out loud!

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1349992203289063429?s=21

    Clearly he misses out the fact - cheap food = full of sugar and other crap to keep costs down.

    The only difference between now and the 19th century is that then cheap food was poor quality and often featured things that weren't food (so you were under weight). Now it contains calories that aren't easy to burn off.
    If you were a one parent family with say two kids and struggling financially this would seem a cheap way to feed the family for three or four dinners

    https://www.aldi.co.uk/wholewheat-fusilli/p/082202239090300
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/chunky-chopped-tomatoes-in-juice/p/048727004006800 twice
    https://www.aldi.co.uk/british-chicken-breast-fillets/p/080499172907500

    £5.88 for probably half a weeks dinners
    500g of pasta, one tin of tomatoes and 1kg of chicken is not going to provide 12 dinners, unless they are all for Tiny Tim. What planet are you on?
    Two tins of tomatoes.

    I am on planet normal - that could easily make one adult and two kids half a weeks dinners

    It works out at about 300 calories per meal for 12 meals. An adult needs 2000-2500 calories per day and a child aged 6-12 needs 1600-2200. So 300 for your main meal of the day looks pretty inadequate. I shop and cook for a family of five and I can tell you that your meal would do us for about one dinner, maybe with a bit left over. Our kids are far from fat (in fact most clothes don't fit them because they are too skinny) so we are definitely not overfeeding them.
    Fair enough, let them buy double what I suggested - three or four meals for less than £12
This discussion has been closed.