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During the four years of Trump the Republicans have lost the House, the Senate and the Presidency –

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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2021
    Rather vague on when the UK will start to get its order of Moderna vaccine,

    The first deliveries of the COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna to the UK from Moderna’s dedicated non-U.S. supply chain are expected to commence early in 2021.

    https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/united-kingdom-medicines-and-healthcare-products-regulatory
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,152
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    First to the barricades...er, Scotland?

    Funny you should say that given it's the Tories who love Mr Trump so much.

    OT but coincidentally, this is from the Speccy. Knives being sharpened?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem
    Some interesting stuff there.

    "The Prime Minister knows that to lose Scotland would be a resigning matter. And there’s a chance he wouldn’t even be allowed to get that far: his party might not keep a leader who looked close to losing the union.

    Rishi Sunak is viewed by Tory strategists as the cabinet minister with the best appeal, outranking both Starmer and Gordon Brown among Scottish swing voters."
    Michael Gove isn't mentioned in quite the same way ...
    PS Also interesting (given current wisdomn on PB) is that the Tories seem quite worried by an indicative referendum - ie not at all dismissive of it.
    There will be no legal referendum allowed by this Tory government, 2014 was a once in a generation vote, the PM has been quite clear on that.

    An indicative referendum without Westminster approval is illegal and can be ignored
    That's not what the article int he Speccy says that your bosses think. Which is why I noted it as interesting.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Trump and Trumpism will rapidly become an irrelevance.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,667
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    First to the barricades...er, Scotland?

    Funny you should say that given it's the Tories who love Mr Trump so much.

    OT but coincidentally, this is from the Speccy. Knives being sharpened?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem
    Some interesting stuff there.

    "The Prime Minister knows that to lose Scotland would be a resigning matter. And there’s a chance he wouldn’t even be allowed to get that far: his party might not keep a leader who looked close to losing the union.

    Rishi Sunak is viewed by Tory strategists as the cabinet minister with the best appeal, outranking both Starmer and Gordon Brown among Scottish swing voters."
    Michael Gove isn't mentioned in quite the same way ...
    PS Also interesting (given current wisdomn on PB) is that the Tories seem quite worried by an indicative referendum - ie not at all dismissive of it.
    But of course! We had an indicative referendum here a few months ago, but it was only indicative or advisory, so the Electoral Commission gave the green light to it. If it had been a binding referendum, the Electoral Commission would never have allowed it to go ahead in the shapre it was.

    Once the votes were in, the government of the day declared that it was, after all, binding; and then set about removing many of our constitutional safeguards in order to "get Brexit done". That is why we are now being dictated to by a gang of incompetents, who have no idea of the British sense of fair play.

    I am sure that our Conservative friends realise that, if they can get away with holding a shabby referendum over the EU, then the SNP could do the same thing over Scottish independence. So they are now worried by the prospect of a referendum on the issue. Quite understandable.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Barnesian said:

    I think there are three different issues with the challenge of China.

    In rank order they are:

    1. Our security - the ability of China to threaten and blackmail us with superior technology in AI, cyber, embedded technology in the West etc. This is similar to the nuclear blackmail of the cold war and has superseded it. The West needs to develop competing technologies.

    2. Economic - the ability of China to outcompete the West in terms of trade and use its economic muscle to threaten smaller players eg Australia. We need economic and trade alliances.

    3. Human rights - we are rightly dismayed by China's treatment of its own people but we should recognise that there is very little we can do about it. The priority should be our own security.

    Isn't point 2 just "Capitalism?"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited January 2021
    ClippP said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    First to the barricades...er, Scotland?

    Funny you should say that given it's the Tories who love Mr Trump so much.

    OT but coincidentally, this is from the Speccy. Knives being sharpened?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem
    Some interesting stuff there.

    "The Prime Minister knows that to lose Scotland would be a resigning matter. And there’s a chance he wouldn’t even be allowed to get that far: his party might not keep a leader who looked close to losing the union.

    Rishi Sunak is viewed by Tory strategists as the cabinet minister with the best appeal, outranking both Starmer and Gordon Brown among Scottish swing voters."
    Michael Gove isn't mentioned in quite the same way ...
    PS Also interesting (given current wisdomn on PB) is that the Tories seem quite worried by an indicative referendum - ie not at all dismissive of it.
    But of course! We had an indicative referendum here a few months ago, but it was only indicative or advisory, so the Electoral Commission gave the green light to it. If it had been a binding referendum, the Electoral Commission would never have allowed it to go ahead in the shapre it was.

    Once the votes were in, the government of the day declared that it was, after all, binding; and then set about removing many of our constitutional safeguards in order to "get Brexit done". That is why we are now being dictated to by a gang of incompetents, who have no idea of the British sense of fair play.

    I am sure that our Conservative friends realise that, if they can get away with holding a shabby referendum over the EU, then the SNP could do the same thing over Scottish independence. So they are now worried by the prospect of a referendum on the issue. Quite understandable.
    Brexit and the UK leaving the EU was allowed by Article 50 of the EU constitution.

    Scexit and Scotland leaving the UK however is illegal without Westminster approval under our unwritten constitution
  • I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Trump and Trumpism will rapidly become an irrelevance.
    Not alienation or America's dysfunction, though.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Rather vague on when the UK will start to get its order of Moderna vaccine,

    The first deliveries of the COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna to the UK from Moderna’s dedicated non-U.S. supply chain are expected to commence early in 2021.

    https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/united-kingdom-medicines-and-healthcare-products-regulatory

    Aiui production from their European supply is slated for volume in early-ish March which means April before we are able to get jabbing because of the batch test/approval. Early March could just about be counted as early 2021.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Trump and Trumpism will rapidly become an irrelevance.
    More evidence and argument-free assertions from yet another poster who is allergic to interpretations from outside their bubble.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    FPT - nuclear weapons exist to level the playing field against those with massive conventional forces, that we couldn't hope to match, and to deter nuclear blackmail against us by nuclear armed powers.

    They're not designed to deter every and all forms of conflict, and nor should they be, but they are an essential part of our defensive arsenal. We have them in case a prospective aggressor calculates they could attack the UK, or our interests, directly without inviting an American response. So, they both serve to strengthen the Western alliance, which helps make our corner of the world such a safe and peaceful one, and our own hard power.

    I know others have equally strong views on this, but count me out from the unilateralists please. It's an ultimate insurance policy that I'm happy to have - and pay for - and helps me sleep soundly at night.

    Exactly. China will do their best to outmuscle the West economically and militarily, but they'll never rule us as long as we have the ability to vitrify them as a last resort. It's as hard as hard power gets, and that's frankly the only kind China respects.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Trump and Trumpism will rapidly become an irrelevance.
    Not unless Republican leadership work to make it so. He must be impeached.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    Pulpstar said:

    TimT said:

    One of the most ludicrous headlines (and experts) on the Capitol storming so far: "The US Capitol protests this week have given ‘a blueprint' to ISIS ‘for attacking" the pivotal institution in the future, according to a terrorism expert."

    So, ISIS now know that all they have to do to storm the Capitol is assemble some 10,000 white hicks wearing MAGA regalia and get their President to tell them to do it. Yeah, I can see how ISIS could replicate that at will.

    To be fair -

    - Wait for a MAGA riot/attack on building.
    - Get your guys to dress up MAGA style
    - Go in with the crowd

    Imagine, say the Mumbai attackers in the crowd at the Capitol. They wait until they are in....
    Yes, it's quite a simple playbook. The Trojan MAGA horse.
    Another thing.

    If I was running an intelligence service hostile to the US, I would be very upset if my guys hadn't been there.

    Not being there for the next building invasion would be a sackable offence.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,152
    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    First to the barricades...er, Scotland?

    Funny you should say that given it's the Tories who love Mr Trump so much.

    OT but coincidentally, this is from the Speccy. Knives being sharpened?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem
    Some interesting stuff there.

    "The Prime Minister knows that to lose Scotland would be a resigning matter. And there’s a chance he wouldn’t even be allowed to get that far: his party might not keep a leader who looked close to losing the union.

    Rishi Sunak is viewed by Tory strategists as the cabinet minister with the best appeal, outranking both Starmer and Gordon Brown among Scottish swing voters."
    Michael Gove isn't mentioned in quite the same way ...
    PS Also interesting (given current wisdomn on PB) is that the Tories seem quite worried by an indicative referendum - ie not at all dismissive of it.
    But of course! We had an indicative referendum here a few months ago, but it was only indicative or advisory, so the Electoral Commission gave the green light to it. If it had been a binding referendum, the Electoral Commission would never have allowed it to go ahead in the shapre it was.

    Once the votes were in, the government of the day declared that it was, after all, binding; and then set about removing many of our constitutional safeguards in order to "get Brexit done". That is why we are now being dictated to by a gang of incompetents, who have no idea of the British sense of fair play.

    I am sure that our Conservative friends realise that, if they can get away with holding a shabby referendum over the EU, then the SNP could do the same thing over Scottish independence. So they are now worried by the prospect of a referendum on the issue. Quite understandable.
    Brexit and the UK leaving the EU was allowed by Article 50 of the EU constitution.

    Scexit and Scotland leaving the UK however is illegal without Westminster approval under our unwritten constitution
    So why are your Tory bosses privately accepting otherwise, if that article is correct? And it is in the Speccy not the Graun.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited January 2021
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    First to the barricades...er, Scotland?

    Funny you should say that given it's the Tories who love Mr Trump so much.

    OT but coincidentally, this is from the Speccy. Knives being sharpened?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem
    Some interesting stuff there.

    "The Prime Minister knows that to lose Scotland would be a resigning matter. And there’s a chance he wouldn’t even be allowed to get that far: his party might not keep a leader who looked close to losing the union.

    Rishi Sunak is viewed by Tory strategists as the cabinet minister with the best appeal, outranking both Starmer and Gordon Brown among Scottish swing voters."
    Michael Gove isn't mentioned in quite the same way ...
    PS Also interesting (given current wisdomn on PB) is that the Tories seem quite worried by an indicative referendum - ie not at all dismissive of it.
    There will be no legal referendum allowed by this Tory government, 2014 was a once in a generation vote, the PM has been quite clear on that.

    An indicative referendum without Westminster approval is illegal and can be ignored
    That's not what the article int he Speccy says that your bosses think. Which is why I noted it as interesting.
    No, that was one quote from an unnamed and obviously wet government adviser not the PM, not a Cabinet Minister and not even a Tory MP.

    There will be no legal indyref2 granted by this Tory government, as Boris has confirmed 40 years must elapse for this Tory government to grant one ie a full generation and Sturgeon has said she will only hold a legal referendum with Westminster approval so that rules it out until 2024
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    FPT - nuclear weapons exist to level the playing field against those with massive conventional forces, that we couldn't hope to match, and to deter nuclear blackmail against us by nuclear armed powers.

    They're not designed to deter every and all forms of conflict, and nor should they be, but they are an essential part of our defensive arsenal. We have them in case a prospective aggressor calculates they could attack the UK, or our interests, directly without inviting an American response. So, they both serve to strengthen the Western alliance, which helps make our corner of the world such a safe and peaceful one, and our own hard power.

    I know others have equally strong views on this, but count me out from the unilateralists please. It's an ultimate insurance policy that I'm happy to have - and pay for - and helps me sleep soundly at night.

    I too support the nuclear deterrent.
    Good for you.

    It's pleasing we agree on something, for once!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Am I right in thinking we don't have any for enough months that there shouldn't in fact be any great demand for it?
    I believe start of April is when it will be available worldwide. I don't think it is going to form key part of the strategy.

    J&J is the big one that could really help. One shot, no -70 million degrees. Could do 1000s and 1000s of a day via drive through.
    The EU is getting the Moderna vaccine in a few days.
    citation required....
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Obviously the (last) thread was about China.

    But in terms of our *actual* role in the Western alliance, our chief concern is actually Russia.
  • I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Trump and Trumpism will rapidly become an irrelevance.
    More evidence and argument-free assertions from yet another poster who is allergic to interpretations from outside their bubble.
    It's true. Trump is a loser like his British counterpart Corbyn. He will fade into history.

    How much influence does Dubya wield now? Trump is a hasbeen in waiting, in four years there'll be a new nominee leading the party.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    First to the barricades...er, Scotland?

    Funny you should say that given it's the Tories who love Mr Trump so much.

    OT but coincidentally, this is from the Speccy. Knives being sharpened?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem
    Some interesting stuff there.

    "The Prime Minister knows that to lose Scotland would be a resigning matter. And there’s a chance he wouldn’t even be allowed to get that far: his party might not keep a leader who looked close to losing the union.

    Rishi Sunak is viewed by Tory strategists as the cabinet minister with the best appeal, outranking both Starmer and Gordon Brown among Scottish swing voters."
    Michael Gove isn't mentioned in quite the same way ...
    PS Also interesting (given current wisdomn on PB) is that the Tories seem quite worried by an indicative referendum - ie not at all dismissive of it.
    But of course! We had an indicative referendum here a few months ago, but it was only indicative or advisory, so the Electoral Commission gave the green light to it. If it had been a binding referendum, the Electoral Commission would never have allowed it to go ahead in the shapre it was.

    Once the votes were in, the government of the day declared that it was, after all, binding; and then set about removing many of our constitutional safeguards in order to "get Brexit done". That is why we are now being dictated to by a gang of incompetents, who have no idea of the British sense of fair play.

    I am sure that our Conservative friends realise that, if they can get away with holding a shabby referendum over the EU, then the SNP could do the same thing over Scottish independence. So they are now worried by the prospect of a referendum on the issue. Quite understandable.
    Brexit and the UK leaving the EU was allowed by Article 50 of the EU constitution.

    Scexit and Scotland leaving the UK however is illegal without Westminster approval under our unwritten constitution
    So why are your Tory bosses privately accepting otherwise, if that article is correct? And it is in the Speccy not the Graun.
    They aren't, it was a quote from a minor adviser, probably not even a Tory member

  • According to CNN, quoting a statement from Moderna, rollout of Moderna's vaccine in the EU is to start next week.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/01/06/europe/moderna-approval-eu-intl/index.html

    If that is correct, then presumably the UK will be getting some early supplies too.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739

    Another thing.

    If I was running an intelligence service hostile to the US, I would be very upset if my guys hadn't been there.

    Not being there for the next building invasion would be a sackable offence.

    Unless it was this guy

    https://twitter.com/christhebarker/status/1347523510680363008

    Probably not true, but entertaining
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    dixiedean said:

    Barnesian said:

    I think there are three different issues with the challenge of China.

    In rank order they are:

    1. Our security - the ability of China to threaten and blackmail us with superior technology in AI, cyber, embedded technology in the West etc. This is similar to the nuclear blackmail of the cold war and has superseded it. The West needs to develop competing technologies.

    2. Economic - the ability of China to outcompete the West in terms of trade and use its economic muscle to threaten smaller players eg Australia. We need economic and trade alliances.

    3. Human rights - we are rightly dismayed by China's treatment of its own people but we should recognise that there is very little we can do about it. The priority should be our own security.

    Isn't point 2 just "Capitalism?"
    Yes I agree. But it's still a challenge. Not number one.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Trump and Trumpism will rapidly become an irrelevance.
    Not unless Republican leadership work to make it so. He must be impeached.
    They have a job on.

    In a Georgia exit poll, 75% of republican voters said the presidential was stolen from Trump. And that's people who voted in the run off.

    Among those who stayed away it must be higher.

    The evidence is overwhelmingly the base is for Trump and a party cannot go without its base.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Trump and Trumpism will rapidly become an irrelevance.
    Not unless Republican leadership work to make it so. He must be impeached.
    They have a job on.

    In a Georgia exit poll, 75% of republican voters said the presidential was stolen from Trump. And that's people who voted in the run off.

    Among those who stayed away it must be higher.

    The evidence is overwhelmingly the base is for Trump and a party cannot go without its base.

    They act now, or get destroyed later.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Ok - this is stupidity of the highest order

    Son just sent me some comments from his facebook

    Person A - "Anyone know anyone who is doing cuts and trims"

    Person B "me"

    Person C "Your isolating you helm"

    Person B " I will wear mask and gloves"

    Person B of course being positive for covid.......

    Makes you weep

  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979

    FPT - nuclear weapons exist to level the playing field against those with massive conventional forces, that we couldn't hope to match, and to deter nuclear blackmail against us by nuclear armed powers.

    They're not designed to deter every and all forms of conflict, and nor should they be, but they are an essential part of our defensive arsenal. We have them in case a prospective aggressor calculates they could attack the UK, or our interests, directly without inviting an American response. So, they both serve to strengthen the Western alliance, which helps make our corner of the world such a safe and peaceful one, and our own hard power.

    I know others have equally strong views on this, but count me out from the unilateralists please. It's an ultimate insurance policy that I'm happy to have - and pay for - and helps me sleep soundly at night.

    Exactly. China will do their best to outmuscle the West economically and militarily, but they'll never rule us as long as we have the ability to vitrify them as a last resort. It's as hard as hard power gets, and that's frankly the only kind China respects.
    As long as we are prepared to be vitrified in return (except for our leaders who will be in their bunkers).
  • Obviously the (last) thread was about China.

    But in terms of our *actual* role in the Western alliance, our chief concern is actually Russia.

    Russia is the Trump of the global stage. A political hasbeen that can troll others but belongs to the past.

    China is the real threat.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603


    According to CNN, quoting a statement from Moderna, rollout of Moderna's vaccine in the EU is to start next week.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/01/06/europe/moderna-approval-eu-intl/index.html

    If that is correct, then presumably the UK will be getting some early supplies too.
    Depends on the contract.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Am I right in thinking we don't have any for enough months that there shouldn't in fact be any great demand for it?
    Do you want the Oxford (Russell Group) vaccine or the Moderna (Poly) one?

    Let the snobbery commence.
    There are reports of oldies asking for “the English” vaccine....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    ClippP said:


    We had an indicative referendum here a few months ago, but it was only indicative or advisory, so the Electoral Commission gave the green light to it. If it had been a binding referendum, the Electoral Commission would never have allowed it to go ahead in the shapre it was.

    I voted to remain in the referendum but this line of argument really boils my piss. At no stage in the lead up was it at all widely publicised that the referendum would be "indicative", in fact a Gov't leaflet which went out widely before the referendum - perhaps a tad remain leaning but relatively neutral indicated "The decision would be yours". This was repeated over and over by Cameron on the TV.
    Using this bullshit bit of small print to attempt to delegitimise the referendum afterwards was one of the worst things the remain camp ever did, it was as bad as the argument put forward in the House of Congress that Pennsylvania's votes should be discounted due to inconsistency of Act 77 with PA constitution.
    I think the EU is a good idea and would vote back in tommorow to rejoin, not that that's politically on the horizon. But the "advisory" argument stunk to high heaven as an excuse for non implementation.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Obviously the (last) thread was about China.

    But in terms of our *actual* role in the Western alliance, our chief concern is actually Russia.

    Russia is the Trump of the global stage. A political hasbeen that can troll others but belongs to the past.

    China is the real threat.
    Be that as it may, Russia is on our doorstep.

    And quite capable, even in its dotage, of corrupting the neighbourhood with cash and novichok.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Trump and Trumpism will rapidly become an irrelevance.
    Not unless Republican leadership work to make it so. He must be impeached.
    They have a job on.

    In a Georgia exit poll, 75% of republican voters said the presidential was stolen from Trump. And that's people who voted in the run off.

    Among those who stayed away it must be higher.

    The evidence is overwhelmingly the base is for Trump and a party cannot go without its base.

    The Trump machine and brand will certainly dominate the GOP for at least the next decade, even if not him his son, Cruz or Hawley will carry the torch in the next presidential election or 2 and VP Pence will ironically actually lead the moderate wing within the GOP for now
  • I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    The American right is split but so is what many people call the Trumpist base. In crude terms, there are the Evangelicals, who are not even particularly Trumpist, Pence is their man; the rust belt working class voters who saw their jobs disappear over the past couple of decades; lastly there are the QAnon-type conspiracy theorists.

    What was odd about Trump is although he ran as a populist, appealing to the rust belt, in office he did next to nothing for them. Trump gave the traditional corporate and country club backers their tax cuts, and gave them and the Evangelicals their judges.

    Where that leaves the GOP for 2024, I don't know. If I were Trump and had any thought of running again, I'd be thinking seriously about pardoning the misguided fools who took selfies in Nancy Pelosi's office, because otherwise he will be seen as having betrayed his supporters (which, of course, is precisely what he has done).

    It is too hard to call. America does not have a Leader of the Opposition like we do so it will be a case of keeping an eye on social media. If no-one emerges, we are back to the old ways of looking at who is fund-raising in which states.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Scott_xP said:
    Republican leaders face a truly historic choice.
    The high road, or the road to hell.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited January 2021
    HYUFD said:

    I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Trump and Trumpism will rapidly become an irrelevance.
    Not unless Republican leadership work to make it so. He must be impeached.
    They have a job on.

    In a Georgia exit poll, 75% of republican voters said the presidential was stolen from Trump. And that's people who voted in the run off.

    Among those who stayed away it must be higher.

    The evidence is overwhelmingly the base is for Trump and a party cannot go without its base.

    The Trump machine and brand will certainly dominate the GOP for at least the next decade, even if not him his son, Cruz or Hawley will carry the torch in the next presidential election or 2 and VP Pence will ironically actually lead the moderate wing within the GOP for now
    Moderate in this case being "non-coup makers". What a pass America has come to.
  • Carnyx said:

    First to the barricades...er, Scotland?

    Funny you should say that given it's the Tories who love Mr Trump so much.

    OT but coincidentally, this is from the Speccy. Knives being sharpened?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem
    Some interesting stuff there.

    "The Prime Minister knows that to lose Scotland would be a resigning matter. And there’s a chance he wouldn’t even be allowed to get that far: his party might not keep a leader who looked close to losing the union.

    Rishi Sunak is viewed by Tory strategists as the cabinet minister with the best appeal in Scotland, outranking both Starmer and Gordon Brown among Scottish swing voters."
    Can Rishi identify Scotland on a map?
    Serious question.
    I met him on a CalMac ferry last summer so I hope so
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    HYUFD said:

    The Trump machine and brand will certainly dominate the GOP for at least the next decade, even if not him his son, Cruz or Hawley will carry the torch in the next presidential election or 2 and VP Pence will ironically actually lead the moderate wing within the GOP for now

    Unless they impeach him
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Am I right in thinking we don't have any for enough months that there shouldn't in fact be any great demand for it?
    Do you want the Oxford (Russell Group) vaccine or the Moderna (Poly) one?

    Let the snobbery commence.
    There are reports of oldies asking for “the English” vaccine....
    Yes, I saw that. I see that as slightly misguided patriotism rather than nationalism.

    My mother (who is almost 80) hails from Oxford, as do her side of the family, and she is very very proud of the Oxford vaccine. Of course, she wants that one.

    I've told her that the vaccine is so lethal and risky she should take the first one she gets but, if she has a choice, sure, why shouldn't she pick the Oxford one?

    There's nothing wrong with pride in a home-grown success.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    Coronavirus: Women on exercise trip 'surrounded by police'

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

    Weren't Derbyshire the ones that got the drones out last March?

    I drove about 5 miles to a nearby location so I could walk the dog (4.6 miles, met one walker, a couple of cyclists.) Definitely better than walking in my town where I would encounter 10s to 100s of people. Clearly Derbyshire police are being badly led. Happily I'm in much more relaxed Wiltshire (unless you happen to be a deceased former PM, who never married and therefore must have been up to things with young boys...)
  • Fpt since it’s on topic.

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    Is it now safe to assume that Trump has no chance of being the Republican 2024 nominee?

    Yes. And I think this has become clear to everyone now. Which is a shame for me, bettingwise, since imo he had no chance before this latest outrage and I was looking forward to laying him at a false skinny price when the market formed.
    It’s quite amazing to think of the trajectory for Trump, from looking pretty good against all the odds in the early morning of Nov 4th to a bit less good and then to a conclusive if contested defeat. However the absolute reputation pounding destruction with a big, fat L all over it has been engineered by Trump himself; fantastic material for a morality tale if you like that sort of thing (which I do in the case of this creature). Prosecution and imprisonment would just be the delicious icing on the cake.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited January 2021

    Carnyx said:

    First to the barricades...er, Scotland?

    Funny you should say that given it's the Tories who love Mr Trump so much.

    OT but coincidentally, this is from the Speccy. Knives being sharpened?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem
    Some interesting stuff there.

    "The Prime Minister knows that to lose Scotland would be a resigning matter. And there’s a chance he wouldn’t even be allowed to get that far: his party might not keep a leader who looked close to losing the union.

    Rishi Sunak is viewed by Tory strategists as the cabinet minister with the best appeal in Scotland, outranking both Starmer and Gordon Brown among Scottish swing voters."
    Can Rishi identify Scotland on a map?
    Serious question.
    I met him on a CalMac ferry last summer so I hope so
    A CalMac ferry is the only place I’ve been actively asked if I want whisky in my coffee at 8 o’clock in the morning.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited January 2021
    On topic: I gaze into the future of the Republican party - not too far, just a couple of years - and I see no Trump or Trumpdom there. What I do see, however and alas, are elements of the MAGA agenda still in the mix.

    The million $ puzzle which imo must be solved in order to predict where the party goes is as follows - Of the 73m who voted for Donald Trump what are the approx weightings (adjusted for overlap) for the 4 main categories?

    1. Love Trump. Lucky to have him. Helluva guy and a total one off. Just so into everything about the man.
    2. Always vote Republican. It's what I am - a Republican. Cut me and I bleed tax cuts & voter suppression.
    3. Not big on politics. Only care about the economy. Thought he'd done ok on that. Why change.
    4. Trump? Can take him or leave him but I like his hard right national populist rhetoric and policies.

    No particular order there except that I've put the last one last for a reason. I think it's the smallest.
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 651
    CNN - Assistant House Speaker will move next week to impeach Trump if Pence does not invoke the 25th Amendment.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    JACK_W said:

    CNN - Assistant House Speaker will move next week to impeach Trump if Pence does not invoke the 25th Amendment.

    I’m still undecided whether this is a good idea or not.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited January 2021

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Am I right in thinking we don't have any for enough months that there shouldn't in fact be any great demand for it?
    Do you want the Oxford (Russell Group) vaccine or the Moderna (Poly) one?

    Let the snobbery commence.
    There are reports of oldies asking for “the English” vaccine....
    Yes, I saw that. I see that as slightly misguided patriotism rather than nationalism.

    My mother (who is almost 80) hails from Oxford, as do her side of the family, and she is very very proud of the Oxford vaccine. Of course, she wants that one.

    I've told her that the vaccine is so lethal and risky she should take the first one she gets but, if she has a choice, sure, why shouldn't she pick the Oxford one?

    There's nothing wrong with pride in a home-grown success.
    The “English” vaccine sounds like a quaint euphemism.

    Perhaps she meant she wanted a bracing walk in Mablethorpe.

    Or more sloe gin with her tonic.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,152
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    First to the barricades...er, Scotland?

    Funny you should say that given it's the Tories who love Mr Trump so much.

    OT but coincidentally, this is from the Speccy. Knives being sharpened?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem
    Some interesting stuff there.

    "The Prime Minister knows that to lose Scotland would be a resigning matter. And there’s a chance he wouldn’t even be allowed to get that far: his party might not keep a leader who looked close to losing the union.

    Rishi Sunak is viewed by Tory strategists as the cabinet minister with the best appeal, outranking both Starmer and Gordon Brown among Scottish swing voters."
    Michael Gove isn't mentioned in quite the same way ...
    PS Also interesting (given current wisdomn on PB) is that the Tories seem quite worried by an indicative referendum - ie not at all dismissive of it.
    But of course! We had an indicative referendum here a few months ago, but it was only indicative or advisory, so the Electoral Commission gave the green light to it. If it had been a binding referendum, the Electoral Commission would never have allowed it to go ahead in the shapre it was.

    Once the votes were in, the government of the day declared that it was, after all, binding; and then set about removing many of our constitutional safeguards in order to "get Brexit done". That is why we are now being dictated to by a gang of incompetents, who have no idea of the British sense of fair play.

    I am sure that our Conservative friends realise that, if they can get away with holding a shabby referendum over the EU, then the SNP could do the same thing over Scottish independence. So they are now worried by the prospect of a referendum on the issue. Quite understandable.
    Brexit and the UK leaving the EU was allowed by Article 50 of the EU constitution.

    Scexit and Scotland leaving the UK however is illegal without Westminster approval under our unwritten constitution
    So why are your Tory bosses privately accepting otherwise, if that article is correct? And it is in the Speccy not the Graun.
    They aren't, it was a quote from a minor adviser, probably not even a Tory member
    You mean, like Mr D. Cummings?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    The Trump machine and brand will certainly dominate the GOP for at least the next decade, even if not him his son, Cruz or Hawley will carry the torch in the next presidential election or 2 and VP Pence will ironically actually lead the moderate wing within the GOP for now

    Unless they impeach him
    Even if they did and he could not run again his son, Cruz or Hawley would carry his brand through to 2024
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    kinabalu said:

    On topic: I gaze into the future of the Republican party - not too far, just a couple of years - and I see no Trump or Trumpdom there. What I do see, however and alas, are elements of the MAGA agenda still in the mix.

    The million $ puzzle which imo must be solved in order to predict where the party goes is as follows - Of the 73m who voted for Donald Trump on 3/11, what are the approx weightings (adjusting for overlap) for the 4 main categories?

    1. Love Trump. Lucky to have him. Helluva guy and a total one off. Just so into everything about the man.
    2. Always vote Republican. It's what I am - a Republican. Cut me and I bleed tax cuts & voter suppression.
    3. Not big on politics. Only care about the economy. Thought he'd done ok on that. Why change.
    4. Trump? Can take him or leave him but I like his hard right national populist rhetoric and policies.

    No particular order there except that I've put the last one last for a reason. I think it's the smallest.

    I'd switch 2 and 1 around, the first 60 million or so for either party will just head out and vote Democrat or Republican even if was say Jesus Christ vs Adolf Hitler on the ballot.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,867
    edited January 2021

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Am I right in thinking we don't have any for enough months that there shouldn't in fact be any great demand for it?
    Do you want the Oxford (Russell Group) vaccine or the Moderna (Poly) one?

    Let the snobbery commence.
    There are reports of oldies asking for “the English” vaccine....
    Yes, I saw that. I see that as slightly misguided patriotism rather than nationalism.

    My mother (who is almost 80) hails from Oxford, as do her side of the family, and she is very very proud of the Oxford vaccine. Of course, she wants that one.

    I've told her that the vaccine is so lethal and risky she should take the first one she gets but, if she has a choice, sure, why shouldn't she pick the Oxford one?

    There's nothing wrong with pride in a home-grown success.
    That post needs an urgent edit, I think!

    Edit: Unless you've actively seeking to be disinherited, I suppose.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    HYUFD said:

    I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Trump and Trumpism will rapidly become an irrelevance.
    Not unless Republican leadership work to make it so. He must be impeached.
    They have a job on.

    In a Georgia exit poll, 75% of republican voters said the presidential was stolen from Trump. And that's people who voted in the run off.

    Among those who stayed away it must be higher.

    The evidence is overwhelmingly the base is for Trump and a party cannot go without its base.

    The Trump machine and brand will certainly dominate the GOP for at least the next decade, even if not him his son, Cruz or Hawley will carry the torch in the next presidential election or 2 and VP Pence will ironically actually lead the moderate wing within the GOP for now
    Freddy Gray in the Spectator is very good on how the Republican 'Cyborg' of Tea Party plus Trumpist does not work at all, citing Kelly Loeffler as an example.

    The Loefflers of this world put off working class voters, he reckons.

    Ironically, they might look at how Johnson in the UK stitched together a coalition of traditional shires and working class rust belt towns.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,152

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Am I right in thinking we don't have any for enough months that there shouldn't in fact be any great demand for it?
    Do you want the Oxford (Russell Group) vaccine or the Moderna (Poly) one?

    Let the snobbery commence.
    There are reports of oldies asking for “the English” vaccine....
    Yes, I saw that. I see that as slightly misguided patriotism rather than nationalism.

    My mother (who is almost 80) hails from Oxford, as do her side of the family, and she is very very proud of the Oxford vaccine. Of course, she wants that one.

    I've told her that the vaccine is so lethal and risky she should take the first one she gets but, if she has a choice, sure, why shouldn't she pick the Oxford one?

    There's nothing wrong with pride in a home-grown success.
    The “English” vaccine sounds like a quaint euphemism.

    Perhaps she meant she wanted a bracing walk in Mablethorpe.

    Or more sloe gin with her tonic.
    I very much doubt she meant a spot of the old flagellation.
  • Carnyx said:

    First to the barricades...er, Scotland?

    Funny you should say that given it's the Tories who love Mr Trump so much.

    OT but coincidentally, this is from the Speccy. Knives being sharpened?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem
    Some interesting stuff there.

    "The Prime Minister knows that to lose Scotland would be a resigning matter. And there’s a chance he wouldn’t even be allowed to get that far: his party might not keep a leader who looked close to losing the union.

    Rishi Sunak is viewed by Tory strategists as the cabinet minister with the best appeal in Scotland, outranking both Starmer and Gordon Brown among Scottish swing voters."
    Can Rishi identify Scotland on a map?
    Serious question.
    I met him on a CalMac ferry last summer so I hope so
    A CalMac ferry is the only place I’ve been actively asked if I want whisky in my coffee at 8 o’clock in the morning.
    And did you?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Am I right in thinking we don't have any for enough months that there shouldn't in fact be any great demand for it?
    Do you want the Oxford (Russell Group) vaccine or the Moderna (Poly) one?

    Let the snobbery commence.
    There are reports of oldies asking for “the English” vaccine....
    Yes, I saw that. I see that as slightly misguided patriotism rather than nationalism.

    My mother (who is almost 80) hails from Oxford, as do her side of the family, and she is very very proud of the Oxford vaccine. Of course, she wants that one.

    I've told her that the vaccine is so lethal and risky she should take the first one she gets but, if she has a choice, sure, why shouldn't she pick the Oxford one?

    There's nothing wrong with pride in a home-grown success.
    The “English” vaccine sounds like a quaint euphemism.

    Perhaps she meant she wanted a bracing walk in Mablethorpe.

    Or more sloe gin with her tonic.
    I very much doubt she meant a spot of the old flagellation.
    I didn’t want to go there...not explicitly, anyway...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,774

    I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Interesting. There are some views in those paragraphs with which I would totally disagree but that does not mean that they are not shared by many Americans who matter rather more on this than the views of a Scots lawyer.

    To deconstruct a bit:
    I agree that Trump appealed to a completely different type of voter than the traditional Republican elite. More blue collar, less well educated, more vulnerable to the vagaries of international trade and all too often on the losing end of that. The similarity between this group and a significant number who voted for Brexit here is obvious and frequently remarked upon.

    I agree that those people do not want business as usual in Washington or elsewhere. It doesn't work for them and hasn't for a long time. There are at least 3 problems. Firstly, it is not obvious how the tent of these supporters can be extended to a winning majority. Trump lost bigly and his supporters are not helping themselves in refusing to come to terms with that. Secondly, it is not entirely clear that the policies that they espouse actually work. Thirdly, who, post Trump, is going to be able to motivate these people again so that they vote in the numbers they did in 2020?

    The idea that the Democrats are off on some sort of jihad is, with respect, mad. They rejected people who were not particularly extreme and went for Joe Biden instead. When told that one of his competitors was proposing a wealth tax his response was to laugh. Most of the Democrats would be centrist Tories in the UK. Some might be as rabid as the Liberal Democrats (remember them?). It is possible that the lack of an effective opposition would enable them to go further, in the same way as the Labour/SDP split here gave Maggie greater licence, but I see very little evidence in the Obama retreads being appointed to the Cabinet that there is any desire for that.

    Trump may have created a largely false picture that made some millions of Americans think they were finally being listened to but not enough to win. Personally, I find him morally and socially repulsive, I don't get the attraction at all. And now he has stepped over the line into criminal conduct.

    I suggested the other day that the Republicans need a Newt Gingrich or even a Paul Ryan who can combine tough economics with a genuine support for the little guy. On further reflection what they really need is another Ronald Reagan but he was pretty special.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,462

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Am I right in thinking we don't have any for enough months that there shouldn't in fact be any great demand for it?
    Do you want the Oxford (Russell Group) vaccine or the Moderna (Poly) one?

    Let the snobbery commence.
    There are reports of oldies asking for “the English” vaccine....
    Yes, I saw that. I see that as slightly misguided patriotism rather than nationalism.

    My mother (who is almost 80) hails from Oxford, as do her side of the family, and she is very very proud of the Oxford vaccine. Of course, she wants that one.

    I've told her that the vaccine is so lethal and risky she should take the first one she gets but, if she has a choice, sure, why shouldn't she pick the Oxford one?

    There's nothing wrong with pride in a home-grown success.
    The vaccine is so lethal? You becoming an anti vaxxer? 😁
  • DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Am I right in thinking we don't have any for enough months that there shouldn't in fact be any great demand for it?
    Do you want the Oxford (Russell Group) vaccine or the Moderna (Poly) one?

    Let the snobbery commence.
    There are reports of oldies asking for “the English” vaccine....
    Yes, I saw that. I see that as slightly misguided patriotism rather than nationalism.

    My mother (who is almost 80) hails from Oxford, as do her side of the family, and she is very very proud of the Oxford vaccine. Of course, she wants that one.

    I've told her that the vaccine is so lethal and risky she should take the first one she gets but, if she has a choice, sure, why shouldn't she pick the Oxford one?

    There's nothing wrong with pride in a home-grown success.
    I hope you told her the *disease* is lethal, not the vaccine...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Carnyx said:

    First to the barricades...er, Scotland?

    Funny you should say that given it's the Tories who love Mr Trump so much.

    OT but coincidentally, this is from the Speccy. Knives being sharpened?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem
    Some interesting stuff there.

    "The Prime Minister knows that to lose Scotland would be a resigning matter. And there’s a chance he wouldn’t even be allowed to get that far: his party might not keep a leader who looked close to losing the union.

    Rishi Sunak is viewed by Tory strategists as the cabinet minister with the best appeal in Scotland, outranking both Starmer and Gordon Brown among Scottish swing voters."
    Can Rishi identify Scotland on a map?
    Serious question.
    I met him on a CalMac ferry last summer so I hope so
    A CalMac ferry is the only place I’ve been actively asked if I want whisky in my coffee at 8 o’clock in the morning.
    And did you?
    Probably.
    It was summer, I believe the destination was Mull, and it was wet and cold.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    Is it now safe to assume that Trump has no chance of being the Republican 2024 nominee?

    Yes. And I think this has become clear to everyone now. Which is a shame for me, bettingwise, since imo he had no chance before this latest outrage and I was looking forward to laying him at a false skinny price when the market formed.
    It’s quite amazing to think of the trajectory for Trump, from looking pretty good against all the odds in the early morning of Nov 4th to a bit less good and then to a conclusive if contested defeat. However the absolute reputation pounding destruction with a big, fat L all over it has been engineered by Trump himself; fantastic material for a morality tale if you like that sort of thing (which I do in the case of this creature). Prosecution and imprisonment would just be the delicious icing on the cake.
    Agree. Shakespeare could have written a wonderful tragedy based on the rise and fall of Donald J Trump.

    Plenty of comedic material in there too which is always a must for Shakespeare tragedies.
  • Carnyx said:

    First to the barricades...er, Scotland?

    Funny you should say that given it's the Tories who love Mr Trump so much.

    OT but coincidentally, this is from the Speccy. Knives being sharpened?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem
    Some interesting stuff there.

    "The Prime Minister knows that to lose Scotland would be a resigning matter. And there’s a chance he wouldn’t even be allowed to get that far: his party might not keep a leader who looked close to losing the union.

    Rishi Sunak is viewed by Tory strategists as the cabinet minister with the best appeal in Scotland, outranking both Starmer and Gordon Brown among Scottish swing voters."
    Can Rishi identify Scotland on a map?
    Serious question.
    I met him on a CalMac ferry last summer so I hope so
    A CalMac ferry is the only place I’ve been actively asked if I want whisky in my coffee at 8 o’clock in the morning.
    Did everywhere else just assume it was fine?
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited January 2021
    1 for @RochdalePioneers (and sorry everyone else for posting 2 tweets in a row)

    Brexit and Ireland in a nutshell with added Germany discount chain product rip-off.

    https://twitter.com/lidl_ireland/status/1347526789707530241
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    Fpt

    I see that 2021, where 2020 was pb's year of the Trump apologists, is going to be the year of the CCP apologists.

    I think my biggest concern is that the Western hard-Left dismiss it on the grounds of being 'cloaked' racism, claiming it's 'their' culture etc, and then do a bit of 'whataboutery' on the British Empire and USA on top. Perhaps they'll add in that whatever the CCP do it can't be as bad as that, on top.

    They will wake up eventually, of course. And China know this. But, they hope to foster enough political division internally within Western countries in the meantime so that by the time they do it's too late.
    In an ideal world, what is your vision for what China is, and how it should behave?
    This isn't hard. A democratic country like the USA, Japan or India, would do.

    That's it.
    The USA has military bases all over Britain, and we cannot operate our defences, our financial systems, etc., without their active cooperation. Are you saying you would be happy for that to be the case with China, provided the Communist regime is removed?

    .
    Ahem - Hinkley C nuclear plant? With no Communist regime removed...
    Quite, but I am asking if you're happy with that situation provided no commies.

    Personally I would envision a situation where Britain is friends with all nations, but not overly dependent on any. For that to happen, it's us that needs to change, not other countries.
    When should we scrap Trident?
    When we've developed an independent alternative. I've spoken against Trident here a lot.
    Trident is useless. Literally, useless. I cannot conceive of a situation where the UK alone would use nuclear weapons to defend its interests where the US would not also act.

    There are many, many situations we face around the globe where our nuclear weapons are of no deterrence value at all. Name me one terrorist group that gives a shit about what upgrade of nukes we currently have in place? What does terrify them is the idea of intervention by a state-of-the-art SAS, backed up by drones. A Trident missile can't spend months acting as a taxi driver in the hot-spots of the world.

    Special Forces are a far, far better spend of the defence budget to my mind.
    I agree largely - my suggestion of developing an 'independent alternative' would be replacing strategical nuke capability (or incapability as you suggest), with simple tactical nuclear capabilities - smaller nuclear warheads, capable of destroying towns, delivered conventionally.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kinabalu said:

    On topic: I gaze into the future of the Republican party - not too far, just a couple of years - and I see no Trump or Trumpdom there. What I do see, however and alas, are elements of the MAGA agenda still in the mix.

    The million $ puzzle which imo must be solved in order to predict where the party goes is as follows - Of the 73m who voted for Donald Trump what are the approx weightings (adjusted for overlap) for the 4 main categories?

    1. Love Trump. Lucky to have him. Helluva guy and a total one off. Just so into everything about the man.
    2. Always vote Republican. It's what I am - a Republican. Cut me and I bleed tax cuts & voter suppression.
    3. Not big on politics. Only care about the economy. Thought he'd done ok on that. Why change.
    4. Trump? Can take him or leave him but I like his hard right national populist rhetoric and policies.

    No particular order there except that I've put the last one last for a reason. I think it's the smallest.

    Very rough guesses:

    1. 10
    2. 50
    3. 8
    4. 5

    Although 1 and 4 are largely the same category, if we're being honest.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 6,168
    edited January 2021
    On topic, I think Trump has a much bigger problem with assuming party "leadership" now than a fortnight ago.

    He has, in fact, attempted a coup and the senior Republicans know that. An inept one, but a coup nonetheless. He's crossed the Rubicon and a lot of loyalists have cut ties.

    This is EXACTLY what coups look like - you allow yourself plausible deniability by not actually being there when the violence starts. But you lead your mob to the gates, encourage them, you say you love them, and you fail to take steps within your power to quell their behaviour. You then position yourself as the only person who can call off the dogs and calm the situation... at a heavy price. If occupiers were in the Capitol now, with weapons and hostages, which they weren't far from achieving, we all know very well how Trump would be playing it.

    Do most ordinary Republican voters get that? No - a proportion do, but most clearly don't. But the senior people just can't kid themselves any more that he's a manageable blusterer with a skill for unsettling opponents and a habit of his mouth running ahead of his mind. Hence the resignations of people who absolutely are not RINOs (and not just resignation but the terms on which they've gone). Association is no longer association with a maverick rule breaker - it's a much, much more dangerous game involving violence, sedition, and possibly very serious criminal charges. Endorsement is still probably worth having, but not as clearly by any means - your opponent can say "do you support THIS side of Trump, then?"

    There will be people who are willing to take that risk - pound shop Mussolinis like Josh Hawley. But half the Senate objectors melted away and the "draw a line" brigade are vastly strengthened. Trump will be unable to speak without "remember when his thugs tried to destroy American democracy?" So he'll still try to exercise leverage, but he's a terribly weakened figure.

    TLDR - he's overplayed his hand, probably fatally.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    DavidL said:

    I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Interesting. There are some views in those paragraphs with which I would totally disagree but that does not mean that they are not shared by many Americans who matter rather more on this than the views of a Scots lawyer.

    To deconstruct a bit:
    I agree that Trump appealed to a completely different type of voter than the traditional Republican elite. More blue collar, less well educated, more vulnerable to the vagaries of international trade and all too often on the losing end of that. The similarity between this group and a significant number who voted for Brexit here is obvious and frequently remarked upon.

    I agree that those people do not want business as usual in Washington or elsewhere. It doesn't work for them and hasn't for a long time. There are at least 3 problems. Firstly, it is not obvious how the tent of these supporters can be extended to a winning majority. Trump lost bigly and his supporters are not helping themselves in refusing to come to terms with that. Secondly, it is not entirely clear that the policies that they espouse actually work. Thirdly, who, post Trump, is going to be able to motivate these people again so that they vote in the numbers they did in 2020?

    The idea that the Democrats are off on some sort of jihad is, with respect, mad. They rejected people who were not particularly extreme and went for Joe Biden instead. When told that one of his competitors was proposing a wealth tax his response was to laugh. Most of the Democrats would be centrist Tories in the UK. Some might be as rabid as the Liberal Democrats (remember them?). It is possible that the lack of an effective opposition would enable them to go further, in the same way as the Labour/SDP split here gave Maggie greater licence, but I see very little evidence in the Obama retreads being appointed to the Cabinet that there is any desire for that.

    Trump may have created a largely false picture that made some millions of Americans think they were finally being listened to but not enough to win. Personally, I find him morally and socially repulsive, I don't get the attraction at all. And now he has stepped over the line into criminal conduct.

    I suggested the other day that the Republicans need a Newt Gingrich or even a Paul Ryan who can combine tough economics with a genuine support for the little guy. On further reflection what they really need is another Ronald Reagan but he was pretty special.
    As I said to HYUFD earlier, I wonder whether the Repubs might look at how the tories here managed to stitch together traditional shire voters with working class votes in the UK's own rust belt. Something Trump admittedly failed to achieve.

    Then again, the tories were facing Corbyn....So.....
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Carnyx said:

    First to the barricades...er, Scotland?

    Funny you should say that given it's the Tories who love Mr Trump so much.

    OT but coincidentally, this is from the Speccy. Knives being sharpened?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem
    Some interesting stuff there.

    "The Prime Minister knows that to lose Scotland would be a resigning matter. And there’s a chance he wouldn’t even be allowed to get that far: his party might not keep a leader who looked close to losing the union.

    Rishi Sunak is viewed by Tory strategists as the cabinet minister with the best appeal in Scotland, outranking both Starmer and Gordon Brown among Scottish swing voters."
    Can Rishi identify Scotland on a map?
    Serious question.
    I met him on a CalMac ferry last summer so I hope so
    A CalMac ferry is the only place I’ve been actively asked if I want whisky in my coffee at 8 o’clock in the morning.
    Did everywhere else just assume it was fine?
    Haha.

    It is difficult to eat healthily in Scotland.
    Best chipshops in the Northern Hemisphere.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited January 2021
    DavidL said:

    I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Interesting. There are some views in those paragraphs with which I would totally disagree but that does not mean that they are not shared by many Americans who matter rather more on this than the views of a Scots lawyer.

    To deconstruct a bit:
    I agree that Trump appealed to a completely different type of voter than the traditional Republican elite. More blue collar, less well educated, more vulnerable to the vagaries of international trade and all too often on the losing end of that. The similarity between this group and a significant number who voted for Brexit here is obvious and frequently remarked upon.

    I agree that those people do not want business as usual in Washington or elsewhere. It doesn't work for them and hasn't for a long time. There are at least 3 problems. Firstly, it is not obvious how the tent of these supporters can be extended to a winning majority. Trump lost bigly and his supporters are not helping themselves in refusing to come to terms with that. Secondly, it is not entirely clear that the policies that they espouse actually work. Thirdly, who, post Trump, is going to be able to motivate these people again so that they vote in the numbers they did in 2020?

    The idea that the Democrats are off on some sort of jihad is, with respect, mad. They rejected people who were not particularly extreme and went for Joe Biden instead. When told that one of his competitors was proposing a wealth tax his response was to laugh. Most of the Democrats would be centrist Tories in the UK. Some might be as rabid as the Liberal Democrats (remember them?). It is possible that the lack of an effective opposition would enable them to go further, in the same way as the Labour/SDP split here gave Maggie greater licence, but I see very little evidence in the Obama retreads being appointed to the Cabinet that there is any desire for that.

    Trump may have created a largely false picture that made some millions of Americans think they were finally being listened to but not enough to win. Personally, I find him morally and socially repulsive, I don't get the attraction at all. And now he has stepped over the line into criminal conduct.

    I suggested the other day that the Republicans need a Newt Gingrich or even a Paul Ryan who can combine tough economics with a genuine support for the little guy. On further reflection what they really need is another Ronald Reagan but he was pretty special.
    No, Biden would be Starmer Labour.

    He wants to end limits on applications for asylum, expand tuition fee free colleges and raise taxes to reverse the Trump tax cuts.

    AOC would be Corbyn Labour.

    Bloomberg and Lieberman and Manchin are the only Democrats or former Democrats who would actually be Tories in the UK and Bloomberg of the Cameroon variety
  • JACK_W said:

    CNN - Assistant House Speaker will move next week to impeach Trump if Pence does not invoke the 25th Amendment.

    I can't see how this starts and finishes with Impeachment. They are going to go after the rest of the coup plotters and participants. That includes the Congressmen and Senators who participated in the White House plan to delay certification long enough to storm the building and force the imposition of marshal law.

    There is no legal argument for the objections raised. The legal arguments were all raised and struck down as baseless. Nor can they claim with a straight face that there were genuine claims of wrongdoing to investigate when they are the people making the claims they want to investigate.

    They are plotters and participants. They need to be dealt with. And I think this has shocked the political establishment enough to make it happen. Don't say that a purge of members can't be done - Boris managed it...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    edited January 2021

    JACK_W said:

    CNN - Assistant House Speaker will move next week to impeach Trump if Pence does not invoke the 25th Amendment.

    I’m still undecided whether this is a good idea or not.
    Me too.
    Creates a martyr to little practical purpose.
    And I know Trump theoretically has power to do damage... But practically?
    Pence is de facto in charge.
    On the other hand. I can see the politics of forcing a Republican split.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286

    I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Trump is a symptom not a cause, and the cause is still very much there, if not more so than previously.
  • Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    First to the barricades...er, Scotland?

    Funny you should say that given it's the Tories who love Mr Trump so much.

    OT but coincidentally, this is from the Speccy. Knives being sharpened?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem
    Some interesting stuff there.

    "The Prime Minister knows that to lose Scotland would be a resigning matter. And there’s a chance he wouldn’t even be allowed to get that far: his party might not keep a leader who looked close to losing the union.

    Rishi Sunak is viewed by Tory strategists as the cabinet minister with the best appeal, outranking both Starmer and Gordon Brown among Scottish swing voters."
    Michael Gove isn't mentioned in quite the same way ...
    PS Also interesting (given current wisdomn on PB) is that the Tories seem quite worried by an indicative referendum - ie not at all dismissive of it.
    But of course! We had an indicative referendum here a few months ago, but it was only indicative or advisory, so the Electoral Commission gave the green light to it. If it had been a binding referendum, the Electoral Commission would never have allowed it to go ahead in the shapre it was.

    Once the votes were in, the government of the day declared that it was, after all, binding; and then set about removing many of our constitutional safeguards in order to "get Brexit done". That is why we are now being dictated to by a gang of incompetents, who have no idea of the British sense of fair play.

    I am sure that our Conservative friends realise that, if they can get away with holding a shabby referendum over the EU, then the SNP could do the same thing over Scottish independence. So they are now worried by the prospect of a referendum on the issue. Quite understandable.
    Brexit and the UK leaving the EU was allowed by Article 50 of the EU constitution.

    Scexit and Scotland leaving the UK however is illegal without Westminster approval under our unwritten constitution
    So why are your Tory bosses privately accepting otherwise, if that article is correct? And it is in the Speccy not the Graun.
    I presume that any sign of weakness from the Tories on the ghastly Natz issue means HYUFD resigning from the party of appeasement. Exciting times!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
  • eek said:

    1 for @RochdalePioneers (and sorry everyone else for posting 2 tweets in a row)

    Brexit and Ireland in a nutshell with added Germany discount chain product rip-off.

    https://twitter.com/lidl_ireland/status/1347526789707530241

    Stop raising problems. People voted for less choice of more expensive food and mass job losses in the logistics industry.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited January 2021

    DavidL said:

    I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Interesting. There are some views in those paragraphs with which I would totally disagree but that does not mean that they are not shared by many Americans who matter rather more on this than the views of a Scots lawyer.

    To deconstruct a bit:
    I agree that Trump appealed to a completely different type of voter than the traditional Republican elite. More blue collar, less well educated, more vulnerable to the vagaries of international trade and all too often on the losing end of that. The similarity between this group and a significant number who voted for Brexit here is obvious and frequently remarked upon.

    I agree that those people do not want business as usual in Washington or elsewhere. It doesn't work for them and hasn't for a long time. There are at least 3 problems. Firstly, it is not obvious how the tent of these supporters can be extended to a winning majority. Trump lost bigly and his supporters are not helping themselves in refusing to come to terms with that. Secondly, it is not entirely clear that the policies that they espouse actually work. Thirdly, who, post Trump, is going to be able to motivate these people again so that they vote in the numbers they did in 2020?

    The idea that the Democrats are off on some sort of jihad is, with respect, mad. They rejected people who were not particularly extreme and went for Joe Biden instead. When told that one of his competitors was proposing a wealth tax his response was to laugh. Most of the Democrats would be centrist Tories in the UK. Some might be as rabid as the Liberal Democrats (remember them?). It is possible that the lack of an effective opposition would enable them to go further, in the same way as the Labour/SDP split here gave Maggie greater licence, but I see very little evidence in the Obama retreads being appointed to the Cabinet that there is any desire for that.

    Trump may have created a largely false picture that made some millions of Americans think they were finally being listened to but not enough to win. Personally, I find him morally and socially repulsive, I don't get the attraction at all. And now he has stepped over the line into criminal conduct.

    I suggested the other day that the Republicans need a Newt Gingrich or even a Paul Ryan who can combine tough economics with a genuine support for the little guy. On further reflection what they really need is another Ronald Reagan but he was pretty special.
    As I said to HYUFD earlier, I wonder whether the Repubs might look at how the tories here managed to stitch together traditional shire voters with working class votes in the UK's own rust belt. Something Trump admittedly failed to achieve.

    Then again, the tories were facing Corbyn....So.....
    To some extent he did achieve it, like the Tories Trump won rural voters and lost inner city voters. In 2016 Trump also added working class voters in the rustbelt states of Pennsylvania and Michigan and Wisconsin, the US equivalent of the UK Red Wall, to that rural vote to win the EC and the presidency but lost them to Biden this year. That is a warning to Boris for 2024 and offers some hope to Starmer.

    In 2020 Trump won rural areas by 57% to just 42% for Biden, while Biden won urban areas by 60% to 38% for Trump.

    However while the Tories won the suburbs and towns, Trump lost the suburbs by 48% to 50% for Biden last year

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    eek said:
    Brace.

    It is arguable that the next few weeks will be the most perilous for the UK since 1940
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    JACK_W said:

    CNN - Assistant House Speaker will move next week to impeach Trump if Pence does not invoke the 25th Amendment.

    I can't see how this starts and finishes with Impeachment. They are going to go after the rest of the coup plotters and participants. That includes the Congressmen and Senators who participated in the White House plan to delay certification long enough to storm the building and force the imposition of marshal law.

    There is no legal argument for the objections raised. The legal arguments were all raised and struck down as baseless. Nor can they claim with a straight face that there were genuine claims of wrongdoing to investigate when they are the people making the claims they want to investigate.

    They are plotters and participants. They need to be dealt with. And I think this has shocked the political establishment enough to make it happen. Don't say that a purge of members can't be done - Boris managed it...
    I think they should leave the objectors alone.

    There’s no evidence they were active plotters, and in any case I believe their number includes a majority of Republican congressmen.

    Calls for Tuberville etc to be expelled look too partisan.

    Deal with Trump.
    Deal with the rioters.

    Leave Cruz et al to stew in their own turpitude.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    Floater said:

    Ok - this is stupidity of the highest order

    Son just sent me some comments from his facebook

    Person A - "Anyone know anyone who is doing cuts and trims"

    Person B "me"

    Person C "Your isolating you helm"

    Person B " I will wear mask and gloves"

    Person B of course being positive for covid.......

    Makes you weep

    Doesn't it just - don't these imbeciles know it's 'you're'?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Andy_JS said:

    I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Trump is a symptom not a cause, and the cause is still very much there, if not more so than previously.
    Agreed. But I don;t know if anyone can harness it like Trump. I quite like Kristi Noem.
  • dixiedean said:

    JACK_W said:

    CNN - Assistant House Speaker will move next week to impeach Trump if Pence does not invoke the 25th Amendment.

    I’m still undecided whether this is a good idea or not.
    Me too.
    Creates a martyr to little practical purpose.
    And I know Trump theoretically has power to do damage... But practically?
    Pence is de facto in charge.
    The big worry is that he will pardon all those who were involved on Wednesday. This creates the precedent that a President can attempt a coup with no possible downside if they lose.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    Carnyx said:

    First to the barricades...er, Scotland?

    Funny you should say that given it's the Tories who love Mr Trump so much.

    OT but coincidentally, this is from the Speccy. Knives being sharpened?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem
    Some interesting stuff there.

    "The Prime Minister knows that to lose Scotland would be a resigning matter. And there’s a chance he wouldn’t even be allowed to get that far: his party might not keep a leader who looked close to losing the union.

    Rishi Sunak is viewed by Tory strategists as the cabinet minister with the best appeal in Scotland, outranking both Starmer and Gordon Brown among Scottish swing voters."
    Can Rishi identify Scotland on a map?
    Serious question.
    I met him on a CalMac ferry last summer so I hope so
    A CalMac ferry is the only place I’ve been actively asked if I want whisky in my coffee at 8 o’clock in the morning.
    Did everywhere else just assume it was fine?
    Brings back memories of being asked, in a Hong Kong hotel, whether I wanted my cocktail bill added to (a) laundry bill or (b) to dry cleaning.

    The idea that I might want to pay it myself caused confusion.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Floater said:

    Ok - this is stupidity of the highest order

    Son just sent me some comments from his facebook

    Person A - "Anyone know anyone who is doing cuts and trims"

    Person B "me"

    Person C "Your isolating you helm"

    Person B " I will wear mask and gloves"

    Person B of course being positive for covid.......

    Makes you weep

    Doesn't it just - don't these imbeciles know it's 'you're'?
    Though I do think 'you helm' should enjoy a wider vogue as an insult on PB...
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,853

    Carnyx said:

    First to the barricades...er, Scotland?

    Funny you should say that given it's the Tories who love Mr Trump so much.

    OT but coincidentally, this is from the Speccy. Knives being sharpened?

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem
    Some interesting stuff there.

    "The Prime Minister knows that to lose Scotland would be a resigning matter. And there’s a chance he wouldn’t even be allowed to get that far: his party might not keep a leader who looked close to losing the union.

    Rishi Sunak is viewed by Tory strategists as the cabinet minister with the best appeal in Scotland, outranking both Starmer and Gordon Brown among Scottish swing voters."
    Can Rishi identify Scotland on a map?
    Serious question.
    I met him on a CalMac ferry last summer so I hope so
    A CalMac ferry is the only place I’ve been actively asked if I want whisky in my coffee at 8 o’clock in the morning.
    That I can believe. What I can't believe is that Calmac got a service running by 8am unless it was delayed from the previous evening.

    He who waits long for the ferry will get there eventually...

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Leon said:

    eek said:
    Brace.

    It is arguable that the next few weeks will be the most perilous for the UK since 1940
    Good “morning” Mr Hyperbole.
    What hysterics await us today?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    FPT - nuclear weapons exist to level the playing field against those with massive conventional forces, that we couldn't hope to match, and to deter nuclear blackmail against us by nuclear armed powers.

    They're not designed to deter every and all forms of conflict, and nor should they be, but they are an essential part of our defensive arsenal. We have them in case a prospective aggressor calculates they could attack the UK, or our interests, directly without inviting an American response. So, they both serve to strengthen the Western alliance, which helps make our corner of the world such a safe and peaceful one, and our own hard power.

    I know others have equally strong views on this, but count me out from the unilateralists please. It's an ultimate insurance policy that I'm happy to have - and pay for - and helps me sleep soundly at night.

    You could sleep soundly at night if you'd paid to be surrounded by a battalion of Grenadier Guards to keep burglars out. But if it meant your children went hungry....?

    There is a huge amount of "whataboutery" supporting the UK having nuclear weapons. Would someone like to give me an actual, real life, certifiable example of when they have given me cause to sleep more soundly at night?

    Where my slumbers are qualitatively better is the knowledge that some ISIS commander or some Al Qaeda financier is being lit up for delivery of a smart bomb by a special forces guy in the shadows, who has the use of the latest array of technology to call upon.

    I'd be very happy for the UK to be known as providing those people the bad guys should lose sleep over. Be the go-to place for the brightest and best fighting men in the world. Hell, I'd pay top dollar to recruit some of the Foreign Legion special forces guys into the team. They were some of the best close protection I've used (and that includes having used a guy from the Bravo 2 Zero patrol).

    The ability to insert these into any country - and then safely extract them - would be an ultimate expression of power. And a much more effective use of defence money than the umpteen billions spent having no more than one Trident submarine on patrol at any one time.
  • JACK_W said:

    CNN - Assistant House Speaker will move next week to impeach Trump if Pence does not invoke the 25th Amendment.

    I can't see how this starts and finishes with Impeachment. They are going to go after the rest of the coup plotters and participants. That includes the Congressmen and Senators who participated in the White House plan to delay certification long enough to storm the building and force the imposition of marshal law.

    There is no legal argument for the objections raised. The legal arguments were all raised and struck down as baseless. Nor can they claim with a straight face that there were genuine claims of wrongdoing to investigate when they are the people making the claims they want to investigate.

    They are plotters and participants. They need to be dealt with. And I think this has shocked the political establishment enough to make it happen. Don't say that a purge of members can't be done - Boris managed it...
    I think they should leave the objectors alone.

    There’s no evidence they were active plotters, and in any case I believe their number includes a majority of Republican congressmen.

    Calls for Tuberville etc to be expelled look too partisan.

    Deal with Trump.
    Deal with the rioters.

    Leave Cruz et al to stew in their own turpitude.
    The objectors were active participants in the coup. Giuliani restated the plan in that phone call - delay certification long enough for the other parts of the coup to happen. They may not have known all the details of the plan but they were enthusiastic participants.

    I don't think any of them will face justice. In America the bad guys always win if they have enough money.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,774
    Floater said:

    Ok - this is stupidity of the highest order

    Son just sent me some comments from his facebook

    Person A - "Anyone know anyone who is doing cuts and trims"

    Person B "me"

    Person C "Your isolating you helm"

    Person B " I will wear mask and gloves"

    Person B of course being positive for covid.......

    Makes you weep

    Your facility with strange dialects is impressive.
  • dixiedean said:

    JACK_W said:

    CNN - Assistant House Speaker will move next week to impeach Trump if Pence does not invoke the 25th Amendment.

    I’m still undecided whether this is a good idea or not.
    Me too.
    Creates a martyr to little practical purpose.
    And I know Trump theoretically has power to do damage... But practically?
    Pence is de facto in charge.
    The big worry is that he will pardon all those who were involved on Wednesday. This creates the precedent that a President can attempt a coup with no possible downside if they lose.
    The whole unlimited pardon thing seems completely unnecessary in the first place.
  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 3,571
    edited January 2021
    Re the Police Scotland video above, watching the Sturgeon presser - Police say they were called to an ongoing house party, police had body cameras switched on. 3 people have been charged with violent conduct, and referred to the Procurator Fiscal. I'm sure this can all be straightened out.

    Clearly a number of people on here have never had to deal with challenging people in a public service context.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739

    Brings back memories of being asked, in a Hong Kong hotel, whether I wanted my cocktail bill added to (a) laundry bill or (b) to dry cleaning.

    The idea that I might want to pay it myself caused confusion.

    Mentioned previously, there was at one time a company in Edinburgh called Extra Vegetables providing crew for film shoots.

    All bar bills were listed as Extra Vegetables...
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    Andy_JS said:

    I love it when people who are implacably opposed to the Republican Party try to give it lessons. Presumably to maintain the notion that everything is alright in the West and its business as usual, and what you are seeing is not a hologram.

    But here's the thing. It really isn't all right.

    The right is completely split in America. The party elite and the Trumpist base despise each other totally. The latter will not turn out for the former, as Georgia showed, and what follows is a hugely bitter primaries battle between the two factions ahead of 2022. When millions will not turn out again and the democrat hegemony intensifies.

    Meanwhile, the Democrats will be deliberating just how much of a Jihad they want to declare on the many millions of Americans who turned out for Trump and now have zero faith in their country, its electoral system and its institutions.

    Trump showed his millions of supporters a glimpse of an America they were comfortable with and where they were welcome and valuable citizens.

    They are not going back to the likes of Romney. Not now. Not ever.

    Trump is a symptom not a cause, and the cause is still very much there, if not more so than previously.
    Aha, not quite.

    Trump is a cause.

    His rise was a symptom of something, but he has become a cause in and of himself.

    His movement will die with him when he rapidly becomes a has-been schmuck.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    edited January 2021
    On vaccine choice, if I was given one I'd go for Moderna, but since I won't I'll take whatever I'm given.

    The interesting part about the mRNA vaccines is that if a booster is needed a couple of years down the road then it could conceivably be an identical one to whatever you got last time as a single jab. With the others you may need two jabs in a new vector.

    I think as time passes the two main mRNA vaccines will become dominant in the developed world while the vector ones will dominate in the developing world. It's a huge win for USA Inc. to have both major mRNA vaccines and such a huge missed opportunity for UK PLC to not have pursued the Imperial mRNA one.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Leon said:
    Are you personally inserting those napped-flint dildos now?
  • Scott_xP said:
    The desperate attempts by Johnson's media mates to put blue water between him and Trump are hilarious - and show how concerned Johnson is about the comparisons. But they are two peas in a pod: sons of immense privilege who believe they have the right to do as they wish without consequence. They lie relentlessly, pander to racists, abhor scrutiny, actively undermine the rule of law and put their own interests before those of their countries.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    dixiedean said:

    JACK_W said:

    CNN - Assistant House Speaker will move next week to impeach Trump if Pence does not invoke the 25th Amendment.

    I’m still undecided whether this is a good idea or not.
    Me too.
    Creates a martyr to little practical purpose.
    And I know Trump theoretically has power to do damage... But practically?
    Pence is de facto in charge.
    The big worry is that he will pardon all those who were involved on Wednesday. This creates the precedent that a President can attempt a coup with no possible downside if they lose.

    dixiedean said:

    JACK_W said:

    CNN - Assistant House Speaker will move next week to impeach Trump if Pence does not invoke the 25th Amendment.

    I’m still undecided whether this is a good idea or not.
    Me too.
    Creates a martyr to little practical purpose.
    And I know Trump theoretically has power to do damage... But practically?
    Pence is de facto in charge.
    The big worry is that he will pardon all those who were involved on Wednesday. This creates the precedent that a President can attempt a coup with no possible downside if they lose.
    Hopefully they are wise and "gather evidence" until January 20.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268

    Leon said:

    eek said:
    Brace.

    It is arguable that the next few weeks will be the most perilous for the UK since 1940
    Good “morning” Mr Hyperbole.
    What hysterics await us today?
    Can you point me to a moment more dangerous to the nation than this - economically, medically, everything-ly - SINCE 1940?

    I struggle. Maybe the Cuban missile crisis?
  • Electricity supplies looking a bit tight this afternoon.

    https://bmreports.com/bmrs/?q=transmission/systemwarning

    "For the period: from 16:00 hrs to 19:00 hrs on Friday 08/01/2021. There is a reduced system margin. System margin shortfall 239 MW Maximum Generation Service may be instructed. Trading Points, Control Points and Externally interconnected System Operators are requested to notify National Grid of any additional MW capacity. Suppliers please advise National Grid of any additional Demand Control available."
This discussion has been closed.