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Powerful address to the Senate from WH2012 GOP nominee Mitt Romney – politicalbetting.com

24

Comments

  • Gaussian said:

    Do NOT bet on invocation of 25th, at least not THIS year. To remove a president days before the end of his term?

    To use a word used a lot today, smells too much like a coup for comfort. That was George Bush the Elder's view, shared by many then and now, including (I'm guessing) Mike Pence.

    And WHY give Trumpsky an excuse, another "stab in the back" argument? OR turn him into a martyr?

    MUCH too good for him. Much better his last act is like his role model, Al Capone.

    They do at least have to be ready to invoke the 25th at a moment's notice though, in case Trump tries anything even worse in the last two weeks.

    Cue Trump sacking anyone suspected of backing such a move. How quickly does the sacking of cabinet secretaries formally take effect? And do Acting Secretaries count?
    Betfair
    Trump to leave before the end of his first term
    Yes 9.2
    No 1.11
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    DavidL said:

    Even after that appalling disgrace last night 2/3 of Republican representatives vote to support the objection to the vote in Pennsylvania , 137 for the objection and 64 against. The sickness in that party goes way beyond Trump.

    A bizarre situation. Still significant Republican support for Trump, and Pence locked out of the White House but apparently with some sort of informally agreed authority that Trump no longer has.
    I very much doubt if the VP can get a majority amongst the lackeys that Trump has, mainly in an acting capacity, in his cabinet now. Once again the vaunted Constitution of the United States that the SC likes to treat like holy writ turns out to be a bit crap. Quelle surprise.
  • DavidL said:

    Even after that appalling disgrace last night 2/3 of Republican representatives vote to support the objection to the vote in Pennsylvania , 137 for the objection and 64 against. The sickness in that party goes way beyond Trump.

    It started long before Trump, as well.
  • IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see what happens to Trump's approval rating now.
    538 average has it currently at net -10.3, which is actually a bit higher than it was during most of his presidency. Will he finally start losing support now?


    “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters”

    Who cares about Trump’s approval rating, he’s a nobody a fortnight from now.

    Everyone needs to ignore him completely, let him live out his life wherever he wishes and deny him the oxygen of publicity that he’s craved his whole life.
    You do realise that the majority of Republican House members just voted to reject Biden's win?
    Trump is just a typical Republican - he's just been a bit more open about it, a bit more crass, and a bit more inept. In that sense he's just exposed the Republican party for what it already was. The fact that 40% still support this is pretty worrying.
    Biden won, and both the House and Senate agree that Biden won. Trump will leave office on 20th, Dems will control all three elected offices and we can all move on from the last four years.

    That’s of course if America wants to move on - or does it want to continue the division?
    One of the reasons the situation is so bad is that Democrats "moved on" from other previous attempts by Republicans to subvert democracy.

    If one side backs a coup then you have to defeat them utterly. There's no moving on from that until you do.
    America needs to look long and hard at how badly it is served by the electoral college mechanism, that allows losers of the popular vote to still become their President. Even if changing that would have delivered President Hillary Clinton. It's not exactly providing checks and balances when it leads to Congress being stormed.

    And a 10 week transfer of power in a digital age is just nuts.
    Our voting system has the same potential, and has demonstrated it several times in the last century.
    But we don't elect a President.
    Neither do that. If you consider the way their system work voters in any given state vote to elect a ratio of members of the electoral college, not vote for the President.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Missed from FPPPT

    For @IanB2

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    Do any wine buffs know whether Barossa Valley Shiraz is any good?

    Laithwaites are trying to sell me a case at half price.

    Barossa is recognised as a premier area for Shiraz, and produces a lot of good quality wine, especially where there are older vines that survived the vine pulling incentives of twenty years back.

    I did my wine qualification online with Laithwaites during the first lockdown, and they’re a good company with some good quality wines on their list. However as a principally online/mail order firm they do rely on selling a lot of plonk cheaply to attract new customers. If you are looking for quality it is generally better to look at their mid-range wines rather than the offers.
    Cheers.

    Price reduction for 12 bottles is from an alleged £275 to £138 :smile:

    Mid-range? Certainly not plonk (in my universe).

    I am not Sean T, or Deirdre as he may be currently.
    Do you have a link to the actual case?
    This is the one I ordered:
    https://www.laithwaites.co.uk/product/C05684

    Seems to still be there.
    Very strong, oakey and tannic. Personally I would find it undrinkable.
    It wouldn't be my preference, either, but it is probably good stuff. I'd look to keep some of it for at least a couple of years and a few bottles for longer, rather than drinking it all straight away.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555
    Alistair said:

    Andy_JS said:

    How did American politics degenerate to such an extent?

    Failure to actually reform the South after 1865. And then the nature of Big Tent America politics giving the Dixiecrats a home.

    There have been inflection points - bit it is a pretty straight line from Lincoln's assassination through the end of Reconstruction in 1877, Integration of the Military in 1948, the Civil Rights act of 1964 to now.
    It is a country born in violent insurrection, where children are still taught at school that revolution is admirable.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see what happens to Trump's approval rating now.
    538 average has it currently at net -10.3, which is actually a bit higher than it was during most of his presidency. Will he finally start losing support now?


    “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters”

    Who cares about Trump’s approval rating, he’s a nobody a fortnight from now.

    Everyone needs to ignore him completely, let him live out his life wherever he wishes and deny him the oxygen of publicity that he’s craved his whole life.
    You do realise that the majority of Republican House members just voted to reject Biden's win?
    Trump is just a typical Republican - he's just been a bit more open about it, a bit more crass, and a bit more inept. In that sense he's just exposed the Republican party for what it already was. The fact that 40% still support this is pretty worrying.
    Biden won, and both the House and Senate agree that Biden won. Trump will leave office on 20th, Dems will control all three elected offices and we can all move on from the last four years.

    That’s of course if America wants to move on - or does it want to continue the division?
    One of the reasons the situation is so bad is that Democrats "moved on" from other previous attempts by Republicans to subvert democracy.

    If one side backs a coup then you have to defeat them utterly. There's no moving on from that until you do.
    America needs to look long and hard at how badly it is served by the electoral college mechanism, that allows losers of the popular vote to still become their President. Even if changing that would have delivered President Hillary Clinton. It's not exactly providing checks and balances when it leads to Congress being stormed.

    And a 10 week transfer of power in a digital age is just nuts.
    Our voting system has the same potential, and has demonstrated it several times in the last century.
    But we don't elect a President.
    A nicety when the issue is that a majority of seats can go to the second placed party in terms of votes.
    Like February 1974 you mean, when Labour won more seats on a quarter of a million less votes?

    Didn't exactly lead to legions of Heathites storming Parliament, did it?
  • Gaussian said:

    Do NOT bet on invocation of 25th, at least not THIS year. To remove a president days before the end of his term?

    To use a word used a lot today, smells too much like a coup for comfort. That was George Bush the Elder's view, shared by many then and now, including (I'm guessing) Mike Pence.

    And WHY give Trumpsky an excuse, another "stab in the back" argument? OR turn him into a martyr?

    MUCH too good for him. Much better his last act is like his role model, Al Capone.

    They do at least have to be ready to invoke the 25th at a moment's notice though, in case Trump tries anything even worse in the last two weeks.

    Cue Trump sacking anyone suspected of backing such a move. How quickly does the sacking of cabinet secretaries formally take effect? And do Acting Secretaries count?
    Betfair
    Trump to leave before the end of his first term
    Yes 9.2
    No 1.11
    Caveat Emptor! Betfair market probably does not cover the 25th - all betting on it should read the rules and understand there may be some ambiguity but not expect it to be settled on simply "Trump to leave before the end of his first term".
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Missed from FPPPT

    For @IanB2

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    Do any wine buffs know whether Barossa Valley Shiraz is any good?

    Laithwaites are trying to sell me a case at half price.

    Barossa is recognised as a premier area for Shiraz, and produces a lot of good quality wine, especially where there are older vines that survived the vine pulling incentives of twenty years back.

    I did my wine qualification online with Laithwaites during the first lockdown, and they’re a good company with some good quality wines on their list. However as a principally online/mail order firm they do rely on selling a lot of plonk cheaply to attract new customers. If you are looking for quality it is generally better to look at their mid-range wines rather than the offers.
    Cheers.

    Price reduction for 12 bottles is from an alleged £275 to £138 :smile:

    Mid-range? Certainly not plonk (in my universe).

    I am not Sean T, or Deirdre as he may be currently.
    Do you have a link to the actual case?
    This is the one I ordered:
    https://www.laithwaites.co.uk/product/C05684

    Seems to still be there.
    Very strong, oakey and tannic. Personally I would find it undrinkable.
    If you have any left over, it sounds as tho you could use it to clean your alloys.....
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited January 2021
    Fishing said:

    Alistair said:

    Andy_JS said:

    How did American politics degenerate to such an extent?

    Failure to actually reform the South after 1865. And then the nature of Big Tent America politics giving the Dixiecrats a home.

    There have been inflection points - bit it is a pretty straight line from Lincoln's assassination through the end of Reconstruction in 1877, Integration of the Military in 1948, the Civil Rights act of 1964 to now.
    It is a country born in violent insurrection, where children are still taught at school that revolution is admirable.
    Revolution can achieve things, as France and the United States can testify ; if you're a post-revolutionary society, the question and problem is always how you either manage or update that tradition.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    PA objection formally rejected. Joint Session to resume to deal with the remaining states
  • Do NOT bet on invocation of 25th, at least not THIS year. To remove a president days before the end of his term?

    To use a word used a lot today, smells too much like a coup for comfort. That was George Bush the Elder's view, shared by many then and now, including (I'm guessing) Mike Pence.

    And WHY give Trumpsky an excuse, another "stab in the back" argument? OR turn him into a martyr?

    MUCH too good for him. Much better his last act is like his role model, Al Capone.

    I agree

    Meanwhile Jon Ossoff confirmed as winning Georgia so the Democrats will control the Senate. Needless to say, there has been no payment yet from Betfair for my win.
    There is still some free money available. Betfair has markets on the numbers of senate seats won by each party and on no majority. All three markets can be backed at 1.01. Be slightly careful in the Democrat seats market where independents caucusing with Democrats do not count.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see what happens to Trump's approval rating now.
    538 average has it currently at net -10.3, which is actually a bit higher than it was during most of his presidency. Will he finally start losing support now?


    “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters”

    Who cares about Trump’s approval rating, he’s a nobody a fortnight from now.

    Everyone needs to ignore him completely, let him live out his life wherever he wishes and deny him the oxygen of publicity that he’s craved his whole life.
    You do realise that the majority of Republican House members just voted to reject Biden's win?
    Trump is just a typical Republican - he's just been a bit more open about it, a bit more crass, and a bit more inept. In that sense he's just exposed the Republican party for what it already was. The fact that 40% still support this is pretty worrying.
    Biden won, and both the House and Senate agree that Biden won. Trump will leave office on 20th, Dems will control all three elected offices and we can all move on from the last four years.

    That’s of course if America wants to move on - or does it want to continue the division?
    One of the reasons the situation is so bad is that Democrats "moved on" from other previous attempts by Republicans to subvert democracy.

    If one side backs a coup then you have to defeat them utterly. There's no moving on from that until you do.
    America needs to look long and hard at how badly it is served by the electoral college mechanism, that allows losers of the popular vote to still become their President. Even if changing that would have delivered President Hillary Clinton. It's not exactly providing checks and balances when it leads to Congress being stormed.

    And a 10 week transfer of power in a digital age is just nuts.
    Our voting system has the same potential, and has demonstrated it several times in the last century.
    But we don't elect a President.
    A nicety when the issue is that a majority of seats can go to the second placed party in terms of votes.
    Like February 1974 you mean, when Labour won more seats on a quarter of a million less votes?

    Didn't exactly lead to legions of Heathites storming Parliament, did it?
    I took your point - that it isn't great to have a system where the second placed party can win - to be a general one. Forgive me if you forgot to say that you meant it to apply to Trump only.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    DavidL said:

    Even after that appalling disgrace last night 2/3 of Republican representatives vote to support the objection to the vote in Pennsylvania , 137 for the objection and 64 against. The sickness in that party goes way beyond Trump.

    It started long before Trump, as well.
    Agreed. It starts with a kind of nativism, a belief that this country belongs to them and people like them, not to others. This makes it legitimate to suppress the vote of these others (since you are protecting your country) and, if that doesn't work sufficiently, to eventually to reject the vote of the others since only the votes of those like them should count. It is racist, undemocratic and horribly divisive. The fact that Trump has jet fueled this tendency and given it an apparent legitimacy makes it a threat to the continued existence of the republic.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see what happens to Trump's approval rating now.
    538 average has it currently at net -10.3, which is actually a bit higher than it was during most of his presidency. Will he finally start losing support now?


    “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters”

    Who cares about Trump’s approval rating, he’s a nobody a fortnight from now.

    Everyone needs to ignore him completely, let him live out his life wherever he wishes and deny him the oxygen of publicity that he’s craved his whole life.
    You do realise that the majority of Republican House members just voted to reject Biden's win?
    Trump is just a typical Republican - he's just been a bit more open about it, a bit more crass, and a bit more inept. In that sense he's just exposed the Republican party for what it already was. The fact that 40% still support this is pretty worrying.
    Biden won, and both the House and Senate agree that Biden won. Trump will leave office on 20th, Dems will control all three elected offices and we can all move on from the last four years.

    That’s of course if America wants to move on - or does it want to continue the division?
    One of the reasons the situation is so bad is that Democrats "moved on" from other previous attempts by Republicans to subvert democracy.

    If one side backs a coup then you have to defeat them utterly. There's no moving on from that until you do.
    America needs to look long and hard at how badly it is served by the electoral college mechanism, that allows losers of the popular vote to still become their President. Even if changing that would have delivered President Hillary Clinton. It's not exactly providing checks and balances when it leads to Congress being stormed.

    And a 10 week transfer of power in a digital age is just nuts.
    Our voting system has the same potential, and has demonstrated it several times in the last century.
    But we don't elect a President.
    Neither do that. If you consider the way their system work voters in any given state vote to elect a ratio of members of the electoral college, not vote for the President.
    Now you are being silly. Those electoral college members are voted for to elect what - the head of a spelling bee? Is that what yesterday was about?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    FPT

    "Well, there's three theories about the ease with which the protestors were allowed to get into the building in the first place

    1. Utter incompetence
    2. Conspiracy A - allowed to do so by Trumpians
    3. Conspiracy B - allowed to do so by anti-Trumpians in order to precipitate a crisis whose effect has been (we hope) to neutralise Trump by making clear the de facto transfer of allegiance of the Pentagon to the VP and the forces of good.

    Would you bet the farm on, or against, any one of those, and if so which?"

    Bear in mind that there isn't much rationale behind "Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity", which just makes the world look a nicer place than it is, and bear in mind also that many of us would have guessed that the US Congress was one of the top 3 most securely defended civilian institutions in the world. So "I always go with incompetence" is not a compelling answer.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Missed from FPPPT

    For @IanB2

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    Do any wine buffs know whether Barossa Valley Shiraz is any good?

    Laithwaites are trying to sell me a case at half price.

    Barossa is recognised as a premier area for Shiraz, and produces a lot of good quality wine, especially where there are older vines that survived the vine pulling incentives of twenty years back.

    I did my wine qualification online with Laithwaites during the first lockdown, and they’re a good company with some good quality wines on their list. However as a principally online/mail order firm they do rely on selling a lot of plonk cheaply to attract new customers. If you are looking for quality it is generally better to look at their mid-range wines rather than the offers.
    Cheers.

    Price reduction for 12 bottles is from an alleged £275 to £138 :smile:

    Mid-range? Certainly not plonk (in my universe).

    I am not Sean T, or Deirdre as he may be currently.
    Do you have a link to the actual case?
    This is the one I ordered:
    https://www.laithwaites.co.uk/product/C05684

    Seems to still be there.
    Very strong, oakey and tannic. Personally I would find it undrinkable.
    It wouldn't be my preference, either, but it is probably good stuff. I'd look to keep some of it for at least a couple of years and a few bottles for longer, rather than drinking it all straight away.
    Must say I've been drinking a lot more Portuguese red lately. Very drinkable.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,912
    Priti Patel on R4: US will always be our top ally "whoever is in the White House." Really?
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Must say that I enjoyed last night in an "is this really happening?" way. And its still going on - quarter past 2 in the morning and Congress is still working its way through certification.

    I'm now waiting for Trump to say that the election is illegal as it wasn't settled by midnight. What time is it in Hawaii?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084

    Fishing said:

    Alistair said:

    Andy_JS said:

    How did American politics degenerate to such an extent?

    Failure to actually reform the South after 1865. And then the nature of Big Tent America politics giving the Dixiecrats a home.

    There have been inflection points - bit it is a pretty straight line from Lincoln's assassination through the end of Reconstruction in 1877, Integration of the Military in 1948, the Civil Rights act of 1964 to now.
    It is a country born in violent insurrection, where children are still taught at school that revolution is admirable.
    Revolution can achieve things, as France and the United States can testify ; if you're a post-revolutionary society, the question and problem is always how you either manage or update that tradition.
    The French one did - but it took several refreshes before it bedded down.

    The remarkable thing about the US 'revolution' is how unrevolutionary it actually was. There's a lecture in the Yale online series that someone linked here just recently that deals with this head on. The essay the uni students were given to write was to discuss to what extent US Independence actually represented a revolution.
  • Priti Patel on R4: US will always be our top ally "whoever is in the White House." Really?

    Not the right statement for today, but an interesting one coming from Priti.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,912
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Even after that appalling disgrace last night 2/3 of Republican representatives vote to support the objection to the vote in Pennsylvania , 137 for the objection and 64 against. The sickness in that party goes way beyond Trump.

    It started long before Trump, as well.
    Agreed. It starts with a kind of nativism, a belief that this country belongs to them and people like them, not to others. This makes it legitimate to suppress the vote of these others (since you are protecting your country) and, if that doesn't work sufficiently, to eventually to reject the vote of the others since only the votes of those like them should count. It is racist, undemocratic and horribly divisive. The fact that Trump has jet fueled this tendency and given it an apparent legitimacy makes it a threat to the continued existence of the republic.
    Indeed. Doesn't feel like a coincidence that the same a day an African American man is elected Senator in Georgia, a mob with Confederate flags attacks the Capitol building. Let's not pretend we don't have these vile tendencies in this country too.
  • Must say that I enjoyed last night in an "is this really happening?" way. And its still going on - quarter past 2 in the morning and Congress is still working its way through certification.

    How can anyone claim they enjoyed last night no matter the caveat

    Last night was sickening with loss of life , a frightening threat to democracy, and a lunatic (and I never normally accuse anyone of mental health disorders) Trump who needs to be arrested and locked away for the rest of his days
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Priti Patel on R4: US will always be our top ally "whoever is in the White House." Really?

    Well I've news for her: Britain is not the top ally of the US. Not any more.
  • IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see what happens to Trump's approval rating now.
    538 average has it currently at net -10.3, which is actually a bit higher than it was during most of his presidency. Will he finally start losing support now?


    “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters”

    Who cares about Trump’s approval rating, he’s a nobody a fortnight from now.

    Everyone needs to ignore him completely, let him live out his life wherever he wishes and deny him the oxygen of publicity that he’s craved his whole life.
    You do realise that the majority of Republican House members just voted to reject Biden's win?
    Trump is just a typical Republican - he's just been a bit more open about it, a bit more crass, and a bit more inept. In that sense he's just exposed the Republican party for what it already was. The fact that 40% still support this is pretty worrying.
    Biden won, and both the House and Senate agree that Biden won. Trump will leave office on 20th, Dems will control all three elected offices and we can all move on from the last four years.

    That’s of course if America wants to move on - or does it want to continue the division?
    One of the reasons the situation is so bad is that Democrats "moved on" from other previous attempts by Republicans to subvert democracy.

    If one side backs a coup then you have to defeat them utterly. There's no moving on from that until you do.
    America needs to look long and hard at how badly it is served by the electoral college mechanism, that allows losers of the popular vote to still become their President. Even if changing that would have delivered President Hillary Clinton. It's not exactly providing checks and balances when it leads to Congress being stormed.

    And a 10 week transfer of power in a digital age is just nuts.
    Our voting system has the same potential, and has demonstrated it several times in the last century.
    But we don't elect a President.
    Neither do that. If you consider the way their system work voters in any given state vote to elect a ratio of members of the electoral college, not vote for the President.
    Now you are being silly. Those electoral college members are voted for to elect what - the head of a spelling bee? Is that what yesterday was about?
    Congress is meeting to count the votes for President - there will be 306 of them from members of the electoral college. Their system is genuinely indirect - when you vote for President your vote only appoints Electors who are the people who vote for the President.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Priti Patel on R4: US will always be our top ally "whoever is in the White House." Really?

    Yes, she’s saying that the special relationship between the two countries transcends whichever idiot happens to be temporarily in charge of one or the other.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Missed from FPPPT

    For @IanB2

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    Do any wine buffs know whether Barossa Valley Shiraz is any good?

    Laithwaites are trying to sell me a case at half price.

    Barossa is recognised as a premier area for Shiraz, and produces a lot of good quality wine, especially where there are older vines that survived the vine pulling incentives of twenty years back.

    I did my wine qualification online with Laithwaites during the first lockdown, and they’re a good company with some good quality wines on their list. However as a principally online/mail order firm they do rely on selling a lot of plonk cheaply to attract new customers. If you are looking for quality it is generally better to look at their mid-range wines rather than the offers.
    Cheers.

    Price reduction for 12 bottles is from an alleged £275 to £138 :smile:

    Mid-range? Certainly not plonk (in my universe).

    I am not Sean T, or Deirdre as he may be currently.
    Do you have a link to the actual case?
    This is the one I ordered:
    https://www.laithwaites.co.uk/product/C05684

    Seems to still be there.
    Very strong, oakey and tannic. Personally I would find it undrinkable.
    It wouldn't be my preference, either, but it is probably good stuff. I'd look to keep some of it for at least a couple of years and a few bottles for longer, rather than drinking it all straight away.
    Must say I've been drinking a lot more Portuguese red lately. Very drinkable.
    I gave up alcohol two years, despite humouring Eadric (Sean) in a discussion of champagnes. I don't miss the alcohol at all.

    However, I enjoyed the occasional red from esoteric regions. A particular favourite was Chateau Musar from the Lebanon. Get the right vintage and it's superb.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Even after that appalling disgrace last night 2/3 of Republican representatives vote to support the objection to the vote in Pennsylvania , 137 for the objection and 64 against. The sickness in that party goes way beyond Trump.

    It started long before Trump, as well.
    Agreed. It starts with a kind of nativism, a belief that this country belongs to them and people like them, not to others. This makes it legitimate to suppress the vote of these others (since you are protecting your country) and, if that doesn't work sufficiently, to eventually to reject the vote of the others since only the votes of those like them should count. It is racist, undemocratic and horribly divisive. The fact that Trump has jet fueled this tendency and given it an apparent legitimacy makes it a threat to the continued existence of the republic.
    Indeed. Doesn't feel like a coincidence that the same a day an African American man is elected Senator in Georgia, a mob with Confederate flags attacks the Capitol building. Let's not pretend we don't have these vile tendencies in this country too.
    There are vile tendencies in a small minority in both the extreme right and left in all countries
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,912
    Scott_xP said:
    Germans have seen this show before.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited January 2021
    Sandpit said:

    Priti Patel on R4: US will always be our top ally "whoever is in the White House." Really?

    Yes, she’s saying that the special relationship between the two countries transcends whichever idiot happens to be temporarily in charge of one or the other.
    But that's not the right statement for today. The situation in the US is still uncertain, and the symbolism of international statements and international legitimacy matters in that situation. The White House also specifically refers to leadership, and current leadership, rather than the entirety of a relationship.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    edited January 2021
    Joint session resumes under Pence

    I hope the official who thought to go back and fetch the EC state returns when they were clearing the chamber gets some recognition.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Must say that I enjoyed last night in an "is this really happening?" way. And its still going on - quarter past 2 in the morning and Congress is still working its way through certification.

    How can anyone claim they enjoyed last night no matter the caveat

    Last night was sickening with loss of life , a frightening threat to democracy, and a lunatic (and I never normally accuse anyone of mental health disorders) Trump who needs to be arrested and locked away for the rest of his days
    It's a bit concerning that you classify saying that someone has a mental health disorder as an accusation.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    Fishing said:

    Alistair said:

    Andy_JS said:

    How did American politics degenerate to such an extent?

    Failure to actually reform the South after 1865. And then the nature of Big Tent America politics giving the Dixiecrats a home.

    There have been inflection points - bit it is a pretty straight line from Lincoln's assassination through the end of Reconstruction in 1877, Integration of the Military in 1948, the Civil Rights act of 1964 to now.
    It is a country born in violent insurrection, where children are still taught at school that revolution is admirable.
    Revolution can achieve things, as France and the United States can testify ; if you're a post-revolutionary society, the question and problem is always how you either manage or update that tradition.
    We like to forget but we were in the revolutionary business long before the US and France. France were latecomers to the monarch decapitation game. That our revolutions (ultimately) ended up with a constitutional monarchy rather than a republic doesn’t really change that.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Biden is now president effectively.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see what happens to Trump's approval rating now.
    538 average has it currently at net -10.3, which is actually a bit higher than it was during most of his presidency. Will he finally start losing support now?


    “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters”

    Who cares about Trump’s approval rating, he’s a nobody a fortnight from now.

    Everyone needs to ignore him completely, let him live out his life wherever he wishes and deny him the oxygen of publicity that he’s craved his whole life.
    You do realise that the majority of Republican House members just voted to reject Biden's win?
    Trump is just a typical Republican - he's just been a bit more open about it, a bit more crass, and a bit more inept. In that sense he's just exposed the Republican party for what it already was. The fact that 40% still support this is pretty worrying.
    Biden won, and both the House and Senate agree that Biden won. Trump will leave office on 20th, Dems will control all three elected offices and we can all move on from the last four years.

    That’s of course if America wants to move on - or does it want to continue the division?
    One of the reasons the situation is so bad is that Democrats "moved on" from other previous attempts by Republicans to subvert democracy.

    If one side backs a coup then you have to defeat them utterly. There's no moving on from that until you do.
    America needs to look long and hard at how badly it is served by the electoral college mechanism, that allows losers of the popular vote to still become their President. Even if changing that would have delivered President Hillary Clinton. It's not exactly providing checks and balances when it leads to Congress being stormed.

    And a 10 week transfer of power in a digital age is just nuts.
    Our voting system has the same potential, and has demonstrated it several times in the last century.
    But we don't elect a President.
    A nicety when the issue is that a majority of seats can go to the second placed party in terms of votes.
    Like February 1974 you mean, when Labour won more seats on a quarter of a million less votes?

    Didn't exactly lead to legions of Heathites storming Parliament, did it?
    The fact that it didn't then is not the point. The fact that it can is the point. The system is badly flawed. In the days of the Alliance with support spread evenly a vote in the high 30 percent would have seen them with huge majority. Although I supported them I would not have wanted it because it would have been undemocratic. Think about a fascist party in the same circumstances. The system is flawed and relies on a 2 party system and voters being not spread evenly.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,912

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Even after that appalling disgrace last night 2/3 of Republican representatives vote to support the objection to the vote in Pennsylvania , 137 for the objection and 64 against. The sickness in that party goes way beyond Trump.

    It started long before Trump, as well.
    Agreed. It starts with a kind of nativism, a belief that this country belongs to them and people like them, not to others. This makes it legitimate to suppress the vote of these others (since you are protecting your country) and, if that doesn't work sufficiently, to eventually to reject the vote of the others since only the votes of those like them should count. It is racist, undemocratic and horribly divisive. The fact that Trump has jet fueled this tendency and given it an apparent legitimacy makes it a threat to the continued existence of the republic.
    Indeed. Doesn't feel like a coincidence that the same a day an African American man is elected Senator in Georgia, a mob with Confederate flags attacks the Capitol building. Let's not pretend we don't have these vile tendencies in this country too.
    There are vile tendencies in a small minority in both the extreme right and left in all countries
    Phoney moral equivalence.
  • IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Missed from FPPPT

    For @IanB2

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    Do any wine buffs know whether Barossa Valley Shiraz is any good?

    Laithwaites are trying to sell me a case at half price.

    Barossa is recognised as a premier area for Shiraz, and produces a lot of good quality wine, especially where there are older vines that survived the vine pulling incentives of twenty years back.

    I did my wine qualification online with Laithwaites during the first lockdown, and they’re a good company with some good quality wines on their list. However as a principally online/mail order firm they do rely on selling a lot of plonk cheaply to attract new customers. If you are looking for quality it is generally better to look at their mid-range wines rather than the offers.
    Cheers.

    Price reduction for 12 bottles is from an alleged £275 to £138 :smile:

    Mid-range? Certainly not plonk (in my universe).

    I am not Sean T, or Deirdre as he may be currently.
    Do you have a link to the actual case?
    This is the one I ordered:
    https://www.laithwaites.co.uk/product/C05684

    Seems to still be there.
    Very strong, oakey and tannic. Personally I would find it undrinkable.
    It wouldn't be my preference, either, but it is probably good stuff. I'd look to keep some of it for at least a couple of years and a few bottles for longer, rather than drinking it all straight away.
    Must say I've been drinking a lot more Portuguese red lately. Very drinkable.
    I gave up alcohol two years, despite humouring Eadric (Sean) in a discussion of champagnes. I don't miss the alcohol at all.

    However, I enjoyed the occasional red from esoteric regions. A particular favourite was Chateau Musar from the Lebanon. Get the right vintage and it's superb.
    I have a bottle left of that that I am saving for a special occasion. The others went down very well...
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 793
    eristdoof said:

    Sandpit said:

    Are we any closer to working out how the hell a group of protestors managed to get inside the Capitol?

    Not a good look, from so many perspectives. Let’s hope the rest of the transition period passes off smoothly.

    Is the USA the only country in the world with a ten week period between the Election Day and the transfer of powers? One of the starkest images in U.K. politics is the removal van outside No.10 on the day after an election, as a defeated incumbent quite literally has to pack his or her bags and leave.

    Ten weeks is nothing unusual for democracies. In Belgium it was once 18 months and after the last German general election it took 6 months for a new government to be agreed. The shortest wait possible for a new chancellor to be sworn in would be over 2 weeks, because the new parliament has to vote the new chancellor in, and so the new parliament has to convene, and that whole be a election result that has not yet occurred in the history of the federal Republic of Germany.

    The situation in the UK is extremely quick. Within 8 hours after a returning officer announces the result confirming an overall majority, the PM can take office, he nominates a chancellor with immediate effect, who implements a structural change with immediate effect. I'm sure there are other countries where that can also happen, but it is at the extreme end of the spectrum.
    Difference in cases like Belgium and Germany is that the new parliament is already in place and able to replace the outgoing government with a simple majority if they do anything unacceptable.

    The bar is higher in the US, both formally and politically, due to the president's direct mandate.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    He has 271 votes that have been certified by congress
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    Scott_xP said:
    Roger Gale getting feisty in his old age. Not bad for an MP who has been sitting since before Noah.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see what happens to Trump's approval rating now.
    538 average has it currently at net -10.3, which is actually a bit higher than it was during most of his presidency. Will he finally start losing support now?


    “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters”

    Who cares about Trump’s approval rating, he’s a nobody a fortnight from now.

    Everyone needs to ignore him completely, let him live out his life wherever he wishes and deny him the oxygen of publicity that he’s craved his whole life.
    You do realise that the majority of Republican House members just voted to reject Biden's win?
    Trump is just a typical Republican - he's just been a bit more open about it, a bit more crass, and a bit more inept. In that sense he's just exposed the Republican party for what it already was. The fact that 40% still support this is pretty worrying.
    Biden won, and both the House and Senate agree that Biden won. Trump will leave office on 20th, Dems will control all three elected offices and we can all move on from the last four years.

    That’s of course if America wants to move on - or does it want to continue the division?
    One of the reasons the situation is so bad is that Democrats "moved on" from other previous attempts by Republicans to subvert democracy.

    If one side backs a coup then you have to defeat them utterly. There's no moving on from that until you do.
    America needs to look long and hard at how badly it is served by the electoral college mechanism, that allows losers of the popular vote to still become their President. Even if changing that would have delivered President Hillary Clinton. It's not exactly providing checks and balances when it leads to Congress being stormed.

    And a 10 week transfer of power in a digital age is just nuts.
    Our voting system has the same potential, and has demonstrated it several times in the last century.
    But we don't elect a President.
    A nicety when the issue is that a majority of seats can go to the second placed party in terms of votes.
    Like February 1974 you mean, when Labour won more seats on a quarter of a million less votes?

    Didn't exactly lead to legions of Heathites storming Parliament, did it?
    I took your point - that it isn't great to have a system where the second placed party can win - to be a general one. Forgive me if you forgot to say that you meant it to apply to Trump only.
    You took a point about the specifics of the working (or not) of the US Constitution and tried to broaden it to make a partisan UK political point. Stop coming over all hurt when you get put back in your box.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Even after that appalling disgrace last night 2/3 of Republican representatives vote to support the objection to the vote in Pennsylvania , 137 for the objection and 64 against. The sickness in that party goes way beyond Trump.

    It started long before Trump, as well.
    Agreed. It starts with a kind of nativism, a belief that this country belongs to them and people like them, not to others. This makes it legitimate to suppress the vote of these others (since you are protecting your country) and, if that doesn't work sufficiently, to eventually to reject the vote of the others since only the votes of those like them should count. It is racist, undemocratic and horribly divisive. The fact that Trump has jet fueled this tendency and given it an apparent legitimacy makes it a threat to the continued existence of the republic.
    Indeed. Doesn't feel like a coincidence that the same a day an African American man is elected Senator in Georgia, a mob with Confederate flags attacks the Capitol building. Let's not pretend we don't have these vile tendencies in this country too.
    There are vile tendencies in a small minority in both the extreme right and left in all countries
    Phoney moral equivalence.
    Nothing phoney at all in that comment

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    edited January 2021
    Scott_xP said:
    On Wisconsin now.

    And there is an objection. Senator withdrew. Ruled out of order. Move on.
  • 03:35 and they are still going.

    Will we hear motions of impeachment next?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    Comments from Drosten in his latest podcast that South Africa has a degree of herd immunity, so strong selective pressure for mutations that have some ability to get around the immunity to older variants - hence the new mutation.

    If so, another nail in the coffin in the arguments for trying to reach herd immunity through enough people being infected.

    And more reasons for having (had since last February, but better late than never) strong restrictions on travel.
  • Here we go. Another objection from the Anarchy Party
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    IanB2 said:

    Only 43 house Reps opposing the PA objection

    The party deserves to be electorally obliterated. It no longer supports democracy.
    Yes. Why do people like Romney continue to be registered Republicans in this situation?

    The tradition of floor-crossing if you don't agree with your party is actually quite rare in the US (and it's becoming rare in Britain too - why are Ken Clarke and Dominic Grieve still nominally Tory?). The tradition is that you choose a tribe and stick with it for life. If it goes mad, you shake your head and either keep your head down or make a speech regretting the insanity.

    I'm a party loyalist - I've been a member for 50 years. But if Starmer, or Corbyn, or any other past, present or future leader, refused to recognise an election on transparently vacuous grounds and incited a mob to attack Parliament, I'd resign. Tribal loyalty should have limits.
    Crossing the floor means probably joining a group you dislike as much as the one your leaving, going independent is often the only alternative and inevitably leads to oblivion. There’s also more to being in a political party than the politics, it’s very often your social life.
  • Phew. Senators have wussed out.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see what happens to Trump's approval rating now.
    538 average has it currently at net -10.3, which is actually a bit higher than it was during most of his presidency. Will he finally start losing support now?


    “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters”

    Who cares about Trump’s approval rating, he’s a nobody a fortnight from now.

    Everyone needs to ignore him completely, let him live out his life wherever he wishes and deny him the oxygen of publicity that he’s craved his whole life.
    You do realise that the majority of Republican House members just voted to reject Biden's win?
    Trump is just a typical Republican - he's just been a bit more open about it, a bit more crass, and a bit more inept. In that sense he's just exposed the Republican party for what it already was. The fact that 40% still support this is pretty worrying.
    Biden won, and both the House and Senate agree that Biden won. Trump will leave office on 20th, Dems will control all three elected offices and we can all move on from the last four years.

    That’s of course if America wants to move on - or does it want to continue the division?
    One of the reasons the situation is so bad is that Democrats "moved on" from other previous attempts by Republicans to subvert democracy.

    If one side backs a coup then you have to defeat them utterly. There's no moving on from that until you do.
    America needs to look long and hard at how badly it is served by the electoral college mechanism, that allows losers of the popular vote to still become their President. Even if changing that would have delivered President Hillary Clinton. It's not exactly providing checks and balances when it leads to Congress being stormed.

    And a 10 week transfer of power in a digital age is just nuts.
    Nearly all the issues are in the Constitution - which needs a super majorities in Congress and the States to change.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Missed from FPPPT

    For @IanB2

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    Do any wine buffs know whether Barossa Valley Shiraz is any good?

    Laithwaites are trying to sell me a case at half price.

    Barossa is recognised as a premier area for Shiraz, and produces a lot of good quality wine, especially where there are older vines that survived the vine pulling incentives of twenty years back.

    I did my wine qualification online with Laithwaites during the first lockdown, and they’re a good company with some good quality wines on their list. However as a principally online/mail order firm they do rely on selling a lot of plonk cheaply to attract new customers. If you are looking for quality it is generally better to look at their mid-range wines rather than the offers.
    Cheers.

    Price reduction for 12 bottles is from an alleged £275 to £138 :smile:

    Mid-range? Certainly not plonk (in my universe).

    I am not Sean T, or Deirdre as he may be currently.
    Do you have a link to the actual case?
    This is the one I ordered:
    https://www.laithwaites.co.uk/product/C05684

    Seems to still be there.
    Very strong, oakey and tannic. Personally I would find it undrinkable.
    It wouldn't be my preference, either, but it is probably good stuff. I'd look to keep some of it for at least a couple of years and a few bottles for longer, rather than drinking it all straight away.
    Must say I've been drinking a lot more Portuguese red lately. Very drinkable.
    I gave up alcohol two years, despite humouring Eadric (Sean) in a discussion of champagnes. I don't miss the alcohol at all.

    However, I enjoyed the occasional red from esoteric regions. A particular favourite was Chateau Musar from the Lebanon. Get the right vintage and it's superb.
    +1 for Lebanese wines, there’s some very good ones out there if you look carefully.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited January 2021
    Re. the dangers of the UK's single shot delay vaccination policy I was patronisingly told by someone to 'leave it to the experts.' A view supported by TSE.

    Well, the experts are speaking. Clearly. About the absolute dangers to citizens, the country and the world about injecting with a single dose and not following through on the second jab in the correct, clinically trialled, timeframe. The South African mutation may become resistant to vaccines as a result of our policy. This is what I feared and, more importantly, experts feared.

    "Britain is putting vulnerable people at risk from mutant variants of the coronavirus by delaying the second dose of the vaccine, according to South Africa's top adviser on immunisations.

    South Africa is suffering a sharp spike in cases, driven by a new variant that may reduce the effectiveness of vaccines.

    That threat has been underlined by new lab tests showing that antibodies may be at least 10 times less effective against the new variant, which is separate to the mutation that was originally identified in England."

    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-single-vaccine-dose-leads-to-greater-risk-from-new-coronavirus-variants-south-african-experts-warn-12180837
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited January 2021
    DougSeal said:

    Fishing said:

    Alistair said:

    Andy_JS said:

    How did American politics degenerate to such an extent?

    Failure to actually reform the South after 1865. And then the nature of Big Tent America politics giving the Dixiecrats a home.

    There have been inflection points - bit it is a pretty straight line from Lincoln's assassination through the end of Reconstruction in 1877, Integration of the Military in 1948, the Civil Rights act of 1964 to now.
    It is a country born in violent insurrection, where children are still taught at school that revolution is admirable.
    Revolution can achieve things, as France and the United States can testify ; if you're a post-revolutionary society, the question and problem is always how you either manage or update that tradition.
    We like to forget but we were in the revolutionary business long before the US and France. France were latecomers to the monarch decapitation game. That our revolutions (ultimately) ended up with a constitutional monarchy rather than a republic doesn’t really change that.
    Yes, England's first revolution was forgotten, and its pioneering revolutionary-protestant culture by the standards of europe swept under the carpet by the Medici-descended Charles II in his orgy of pleasure and relief ; the second one essentially a slick change of chairs at the top ; and then lastly the French Revolution was determined to to be beastly French and foreign, even though without Britain's revolutionary protestant culture Voltaire would never had a base from which to launch it from in the first pace.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see what happens to Trump's approval rating now.
    538 average has it currently at net -10.3, which is actually a bit higher than it was during most of his presidency. Will he finally start losing support now?


    “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters”

    Who cares about Trump’s approval rating, he’s a nobody a fortnight from now.

    Everyone needs to ignore him completely, let him live out his life wherever he wishes and deny him the oxygen of publicity that he’s craved his whole life.
    You do realise that the majority of Republican House members just voted to reject Biden's win?
    Trump is just a typical Republican - he's just been a bit more open about it, a bit more crass, and a bit more inept. In that sense he's just exposed the Republican party for what it already was. The fact that 40% still support this is pretty worrying.
    Biden won, and both the House and Senate agree that Biden won. Trump will leave office on 20th, Dems will control all three elected offices and we can all move on from the last four years.

    That’s of course if America wants to move on - or does it want to continue the division?
    One of the reasons the situation is so bad is that Democrats "moved on" from other previous attempts by Republicans to subvert democracy.

    If one side backs a coup then you have to defeat them utterly. There's no moving on from that until you do.
    America needs to look long and hard at how badly it is served by the electoral college mechanism, that allows losers of the popular vote to still become their President. Even if changing that would have delivered President Hillary Clinton. It's not exactly providing checks and balances when it leads to Congress being stormed.

    And a 10 week transfer of power in a digital age is just nuts.
    Nearly all the issues are in the Constitution - which needs a super majorities in Congress and the States to change.
    Amendments to the constitution used to be relatively common but virtually impossible now.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 793
    kamski said:

    Comments from Drosten in his latest podcast that South Africa has a degree of herd immunity, so strong selective pressure for mutations that have some ability to get around the immunity to older variants - hence the new mutation.

    If so, another nail in the coffin in the arguments for trying to reach herd immunity through enough people being infected.

    And more reasons for having (had since last February, but better late than never) strong restrictions on travel.

    The same selective pressure will be there from vaccine-induced immunity. Cue ongoing outbreaks and re-vaccination. Like the flu, only worse.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    FPT - Johnson was predicting workers would flock back to offices once the pandemic ends; he's not encouraging them to do so now, or soon.

    FWIW, I don't agree. I think a 3-day week will become the new 5-day week (with most workers WFH on Mondays and Fridays) and some only coming in for one or two days, but of course it's impossible to predict with any certainty at this stage:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/01/06/boris-johnson-predicts-workers-will-flock-back-offices-pandemic/
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    edited January 2021
    Objection to Wisconsin

    But the Senator has withdrawn his objection

    Objection dismissed
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,912

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Even after that appalling disgrace last night 2/3 of Republican representatives vote to support the objection to the vote in Pennsylvania , 137 for the objection and 64 against. The sickness in that party goes way beyond Trump.

    It started long before Trump, as well.
    Agreed. It starts with a kind of nativism, a belief that this country belongs to them and people like them, not to others. This makes it legitimate to suppress the vote of these others (since you are protecting your country) and, if that doesn't work sufficiently, to eventually to reject the vote of the others since only the votes of those like them should count. It is racist, undemocratic and horribly divisive. The fact that Trump has jet fueled this tendency and given it an apparent legitimacy makes it a threat to the continued existence of the republic.
    Indeed. Doesn't feel like a coincidence that the same a day an African American man is elected Senator in Georgia, a mob with Confederate flags attacks the Capitol building. Let's not pretend we don't have these vile tendencies in this country too.
    There are vile tendencies in a small minority in both the extreme right and left in all countries
    Phoney moral equivalence.
    Nothing phoney at all in that comment

    In this country the extreme left tore down the statue of someone who got rich off the greatest crime in human history. The extreme right murdered an MP and young mother. I don't think the two are equivalent in the slightest.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see what happens to Trump's approval rating now.
    538 average has it currently at net -10.3, which is actually a bit higher than it was during most of his presidency. Will he finally start losing support now?


    “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters”

    Who cares about Trump’s approval rating, he’s a nobody a fortnight from now.

    Everyone needs to ignore him completely, let him live out his life wherever he wishes and deny him the oxygen of publicity that he’s craved his whole life.
    You do realise that the majority of Republican House members just voted to reject Biden's win?
    Trump is just a typical Republican - he's just been a bit more open about it, a bit more crass, and a bit more inept. In that sense he's just exposed the Republican party for what it already was. The fact that 40% still support this is pretty worrying.
    Biden won, and both the House and Senate agree that Biden won. Trump will leave office on 20th, Dems will control all three elected offices and we can all move on from the last four years.

    That’s of course if America wants to move on - or does it want to continue the division?
    One of the reasons the situation is so bad is that Democrats "moved on" from other previous attempts by Republicans to subvert democracy.

    If one side backs a coup then you have to defeat them utterly. There's no moving on from that until you do.
    America needs to look long and hard at how badly it is served by the electoral college mechanism, that allows losers of the popular vote to still become their President. Even if changing that would have delivered President Hillary Clinton. It's not exactly providing checks and balances when it leads to Congress being stormed.

    And a 10 week transfer of power in a digital age is just nuts.
    Our voting system has the same potential, and has demonstrated it several times in the last century.
    But we don't elect a President.
    Sigh

    It's not the voting system. Or the constitution. They may not help. But...

    Ultimately, it is down to the people, the politicians and the permanent government employees to interpret the rules, written and unwritten.

    What is happening in the US is that a large chunk of the population simply doesn't respect or believe in the result of the election. Donald Fucking Trump is making it worse, but it isn't just him....

    Hence some of the police siding with the rioters, apparently.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    edited January 2021
    Wyoming accepted - process completed - Biden and Harris confirmed. At 3.40 am
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Even after that appalling disgrace last night 2/3 of Republican representatives vote to support the objection to the vote in Pennsylvania , 137 for the objection and 64 against. The sickness in that party goes way beyond Trump.

    It started long before Trump, as well.
    W
    Agreed. It starts with a kind of nativism, a belief that this country belongs to them and people like them, not to others. This makes it legitimate to suppress the vote of these others (since you are protecting your country) and, if that doesn't work sufficiently, to eventually to reject the vote of the others since only the votes of those like them should count. It is racist, undemocratic and horribly divisive. The fact that Trump has jet fueled this tendency and given it an apparent legitimacy makes it a threat to the continued existence of the republic.
    Indeed. Doesn't feel like a coincidence that the same a day an African American man is elected Senator in Georgia, a mob with Confederate flags attacks the Capitol building. Let's not pretend we don't have these vile tendencies in this country too.
    There are vile tendencies in a small minority in both the extreme right and left in all countries
    Phoney moral equivalence.
    The newly elected GOP congresswoman on R4 this am was very much pushing the bad people on both sides line, perhaps not the best one when the bad people on one’s own side have just shit the bed. Priti’s mealy mouthed equivocatin’ followed on quite seamlessly.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    It's good that Congress played its part, but the big question remained unanswered. The mob may have gone home, but the anger and disconnect that brought them to the capitol are still there.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555

    FPT - Johnson was predicting workers would flock back to offices once the pandemic ends; he's not encouraging them to do so now, or soon.

    FWIW, I don't agree. I think a 3-day week will become the new 5-day week (with most workers WFH on Mondays and Fridays) and some only coming in for one or two days, but of course it's impossible to predict with any certainty at this stage:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/01/06/boris-johnson-predicts-workers-will-flock-back-offices-pandemic/

    I think it will mostly depend on whether your boss is a controlling arsehole or not.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    kamski said:

    Comments from Drosten in his latest podcast that South Africa has a degree of herd immunity, so strong selective pressure for mutations that have some ability to get around the immunity to older variants - hence the new mutation.

    If so, another nail in the coffin in the arguments for trying to reach herd immunity through enough people being infected.

    And more reasons for having (had since last February, but better late than never) strong restrictions on travel.

    I mean this was probably already obvious to the smarter people on here, but I only understood this yesterday. If you have lots of infections there's a point where you have lots of people with immunity and lots of infected people where the virus can mutate, so a big chance of a mutation happening (and spreading rapidly) that the infection-acquired immunity isn't effective against.

    If you could keep infections low and then quickly roll out mass vaccination, that risk is far lower.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see what happens to Trump's approval rating now.
    538 average has it currently at net -10.3, which is actually a bit higher than it was during most of his presidency. Will he finally start losing support now?


    “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters”

    Who cares about Trump’s approval rating, he’s a nobody a fortnight from now.

    Everyone needs to ignore him completely, let him live out his life wherever he wishes and deny him the oxygen of publicity that he’s craved his whole life.
    You do realise that the majority of Republican House members just voted to reject Biden's win?
    Trump is just a typical Republican - he's just been a bit more open about it, a bit more crass, and a bit more inept. In that sense he's just exposed the Republican party for what it already was. The fact that 40% still support this is pretty worrying.
    Biden won, and both the House and Senate agree that Biden won. Trump will leave office on 20th, Dems will control all three elected offices and we can all move on from the last four years.

    That’s of course if America wants to move on - or does it want to continue the division?
    One of the reasons the situation is so bad is that Democrats "moved on" from other previous attempts by Republicans to subvert democracy.

    If one side backs a coup then you have to defeat them utterly. There's no moving on from that until you do.
    America needs to look long and hard at how badly it is served by the electoral college mechanism, that allows losers of the popular vote to still become their President. Even if changing that would have delivered President Hillary Clinton. It's not exactly providing checks and balances when it leads to Congress being stormed.

    And a 10 week transfer of power in a digital age is just nuts.
    Our voting system has the same potential, and has demonstrated it several times in the last century.
    But we don't elect a President.
    A nicety when the issue is that a majority of seats can go to the second placed party in terms of votes.
    Like February 1974 you mean, when Labour won more seats on a quarter of a million less votes?

    Didn't exactly lead to legions of Heathites storming Parliament, did it?
    I took your point - that it isn't great to have a system where the second placed party can win - to be a general one. Forgive me if you forgot to say that you meant it to apply to Trump only.
    You took a point about the specifics of the working (or not) of the US Constitution and tried to broaden it to make a partisan UK political point. Stop coming over all hurt when you get put back in your box.
    It doesn't look like you took IanB2 pointing out your inconsistency too well either. He seems to have made a perfectly valid point.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited January 2021

    FPT - Johnson was predicting workers would flock back to offices once the pandemic ends; he's not encouraging them to do so now, or soon.

    FWIW, I don't agree. I think a 3-day week will become the new 5-day week (with most workers WFH on Mondays and Fridays) and some only coming in for one or two days, but of course it's impossible to predict with any certainty at this stage:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/01/06/boris-johnson-predicts-workers-will-flock-back-offices-pandemic/

    There’s no chance of the same level of commuting coming back, especially not into central London. Many companies have found that any drop in productivity with everyone WFH is outweighed by the cost of maintaining sufficient office space for everyone.

    I’m expecting a solution for many companies based around a few days a month in the office for each team, that allows them to move out of daily commutable distance from London. The offices themselves might end up out of town too, with minimal space retained in the capital for those who really have to work alongside suppliers and customers on a face-to-face basis.

    Johnson is trying to keep GDP up by having everyone buy coffees and lunches, and avoid having to put billions into the railways.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Scott_xP said:
    Germans have seen this show before.
    :smiley:

    That's about as close as permitted under Godwin's Law, which is a travesty because we ought to be recalling just what happened then as an example of what can still happen today.

    It's about time Godwin's Law was assigned to the compost heap.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2021
    Joe Biden has got one hell of a job on his hands...

    The trumpian lot are totally mental, can easily be whipped up into a frenzy and showed yesterday that transforming from a bit of joke bunch to something much more dangerous (luckily it appears that are as thick as shit and currently totally unorganised). I fear we may see more incidents like the Christmas day bomber, but without the warning.

    And at the same time the far left nutters haven't gone away...this is still going on most days.

    https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice/status/1347057880151674885?s=19
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Even after that appalling disgrace last night 2/3 of Republican representatives vote to support the objection to the vote in Pennsylvania , 137 for the objection and 64 against. The sickness in that party goes way beyond Trump.

    It started long before Trump, as well.
    Agreed. It starts with a kind of nativism, a belief that this country belongs to them and people like them, not to others. This makes it legitimate to suppress the vote of these others (since you are protecting your country) and, if that doesn't work sufficiently, to eventually to reject the vote of the others since only the votes of those like them should count. It is racist, undemocratic and horribly divisive. The fact that Trump has jet fueled this tendency and given it an apparent legitimacy makes it a threat to the continued existence of the republic.
    Indeed. Doesn't feel like a coincidence that the same a day an African American man is elected Senator in Georgia, a mob with Confederate flags attacks the Capitol building. Let's not pretend we don't have these vile tendencies in this country too.
    There are vile tendencies in a small minority in both the extreme right and left in all countries
    Phoney moral equivalence.
    Nothing phoney at all in that comment

    In this country the extreme left tore down the statue of someone who got rich off the greatest crime in human history. The extreme right murdered an MP and young mother. I don't think the two are equivalent in the slightest.
    That wasn't the extreme left, that was a bunch of wankers. And while I agree with you about the crime, it wasn't a crime that could be committed in a vacuum at a personal or corporate level. We committed it as a nation, where we includes you.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Interesting to see what happens to Trump's approval rating now.
    538 average has it currently at net -10.3, which is actually a bit higher than it was during most of his presidency. Will he finally start losing support now?


    “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters”

    Who cares about Trump’s approval rating, he’s a nobody a fortnight from now.

    Everyone needs to ignore him completely, let him live out his life wherever he wishes and deny him the oxygen of publicity that he’s craved his whole life.
    You do realise that the majority of Republican House members just voted to reject Biden's win?
    Trump is just a typical Republican - he's just been a bit more open about it, a bit more crass, and a bit more inept. In that sense he's just exposed the Republican party for what it already was. The fact that 40% still support this is pretty worrying.
    Biden won, and both the House and Senate agree that Biden won. Trump will leave office on 20th, Dems will control all three elected offices and we can all move on from the last four years.

    That’s of course if America wants to move on - or does it want to continue the division?
    One of the reasons the situation is so bad is that Democrats "moved on" from other previous attempts by Republicans to subvert democracy.

    If one side backs a coup then you have to defeat them utterly. There's no moving on from that until you do.
    America needs to look long and hard at how badly it is served by the electoral college mechanism, that allows losers of the popular vote to still become their President. Even if changing that would have delivered President Hillary Clinton. It's not exactly providing checks and balances when it leads to Congress being stormed.

    And a 10 week transfer of power in a digital age is just nuts.
    Our voting system has the same potential, and has demonstrated it several times in the last century.
    But we don't elect a President.
    A nicety when the issue is that a majority of seats can go to the second placed party in terms of votes.
    Like February 1974 you mean, when Labour won more seats on a quarter of a million less votes?

    Didn't exactly lead to legions of Heathites storming Parliament, did it?
    I took your point - that it isn't great to have a system where the second placed party can win - to be a general one. Forgive me if you forgot to say that you meant it to apply to Trump only.
    You took a point about the specifics of the working (or not) of the US Constitution and tried to broaden it to make a partisan UK political point. Stop coming over all hurt when you get put back in your box.
    Alternatively, you drew attention to a weakness in the US electoral system and came over all hurt when you were reminded that we have an equivalent flaw in our own :)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,284

    Biden is now president effectively.

    He has been since the start of November.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Trump puts out statement saying there will be a peaceful transition.

    Don't believe him guys. 25th now!!!
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Scott_xP said:
    Germans have seen this show before.
    :smiley:

    That's about as close as permitted under Godwin's Law, which is a travesty because we ought to be recalling just what happened then as an example of what can still happen today.

    It's about time Godwin's Law was assigned to the compost heap.
    As Mr Godwin points out Godwin's Law is simply an observation. Comparison's to Nazi's can often be perfectly fine.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2017/08/14/the-creator-of-godwins-law-explains-why-some-nazi-comparisons-dont-break-his-famous-internet-rule/
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 651
    CNN - Trump Statement "There will be an orderly transition of power" on 20th January.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    Gaussian said:

    kamski said:

    Comments from Drosten in his latest podcast that South Africa has a degree of herd immunity, so strong selective pressure for mutations that have some ability to get around the immunity to older variants - hence the new mutation.

    If so, another nail in the coffin in the arguments for trying to reach herd immunity through enough people being infected.

    And more reasons for having (had since last February, but better late than never) strong restrictions on travel.

    The same selective pressure will be there from vaccine-induced immunity. Cue ongoing outbreaks and re-vaccination. Like the flu, only worse.
    I don't think that's entirely true.
    Mutations are more likely if you have lots of people infected where mutations can occur. Reaching herd immunity by infection requires large numbers of people infected. Vaccinating everyone prevents this.

    Plus the vaccines may offer better immunity than infection,
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2021
    I wouldn't be surprised if twitter ban Trump soon after he leaves office. He could easily use his reach to whip up the mob again.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    edited January 2021

    Scott_xP said:
    Germans have seen this show before.
    :smiley:

    That's about as close as permitted under Godwin's Law, which is a travesty because we ought to be recalling just what happened then as an example of what can still happen today.

    It's about time Godwin's Law was assigned to the compost heap.
    Scrapping established laws like that....you surely know where that will lead?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749
    edited January 2021
    Brillodamus showing his legendary ability to read a situation.
    (& when the fcuk was he last at a Buddies’ match?)

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1346882199338053633?s=21
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Fishing said:

    FPT - Johnson was predicting workers would flock back to offices once the pandemic ends; he's not encouraging them to do so now, or soon.

    FWIW, I don't agree. I think a 3-day week will become the new 5-day week (with most workers WFH on Mondays and Fridays) and some only coming in for one or two days, but of course it's impossible to predict with any certainty at this stage:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/01/06/boris-johnson-predicts-workers-will-flock-back-offices-pandemic/

    I think it will mostly depend on whether your boss is a controlling arsehole or not.
    Yes and, unfortunately, many people work in jobs they don't much like (or at least are largely ambivalent about) for people they don't much care for.

    It probably explains, in part, why lockdown and tiering is so popular.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    I guess he belatedly discovered it wasnt just a fucking game.
  • Patel says Nurseries are Covid Secure.

    Liar.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    edited January 2021
    Fishing said:

    FPT - Johnson was predicting workers would flock back to offices once the pandemic ends; he's not encouraging them to do so now, or soon.

    FWIW, I don't agree. I think a 3-day week will become the new 5-day week (with most workers WFH on Mondays and Fridays) and some only coming in for one or two days, but of course it's impossible to predict with any certainty at this stage:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/01/06/boris-johnson-predicts-workers-will-flock-back-offices-pandemic/

    I think it will mostly depend on whether your boss is a controlling arsehole or not.
    I know of someone, in Kent, who is still being forced into the office a couple of days a week, even though they work from home the other days of the week, despite the situation, because their boss is a controlling arsehole (and you can't really shop your boss to the law and keep your job).
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    JACK_W said:

    CNN - Trump Statement "There will be an orderly transition of power" on 20th January.

    Sounds like he has been sat down and given a good talking to. Probably the first time ever.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    Trump's statement claims his term as the greatest first term in US history and suggests it is only the start of his campaign to MAGA.

    Looks like a belated and surely forlorn attempt to recover the future career he just trashed?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Missed from FPPPT

    For @IanB2

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    Do any wine buffs know whether Barossa Valley Shiraz is any good?

    Laithwaites are trying to sell me a case at half price.

    Barossa is recognised as a premier area for Shiraz, and produces a lot of good quality wine, especially where there are older vines that survived the vine pulling incentives of twenty years back.

    I did my wine qualification online with Laithwaites during the first lockdown, and they’re a good company with some good quality wines on their list. However as a principally online/mail order firm they do rely on selling a lot of plonk cheaply to attract new customers. If you are looking for quality it is generally better to look at their mid-range wines rather than the offers.
    Cheers.

    Price reduction for 12 bottles is from an alleged £275 to £138 :smile:

    Mid-range? Certainly not plonk (in my universe).

    I am not Sean T, or Deirdre as he may be currently.
    Do you have a link to the actual case?
    This is the one I ordered:
    https://www.laithwaites.co.uk/product/C05684

    Seems to still be there.
    Very strong, oakey and tannic. Personally I would find it undrinkable.
    It wouldn't be my preference, either, but it is probably good stuff. I'd look to keep some of it for at least a couple of years and a few bottles for longer, rather than drinking it all straight away.
    Must say I've been drinking a lot more Portuguese red lately. Very drinkable.
    OKC, same here and yet to get a bad one. Also been drinking more from Puglia as well and they are nice.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    OT I was reading this weekend about research suggesting the 1889-90 “Russian Flu” outbreak was caused by human coronavirus OC43 which is still circulating albeit with less virulent effects. Seemed persuasive to my untrained eye. Did occur to me though that prior to the mid C19 this coronavirus would barely have been noticed given that our life expectancy was far lower than the age of the people worst effected - and the fatality rate from the pre existing conditions even before catching the virus was much much higher. We are very lucky to live when we do.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Missed from FPPPT

    For @IanB2

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    Do any wine buffs know whether Barossa Valley Shiraz is any good?

    Laithwaites are trying to sell me a case at half price.

    Barossa is recognised as a premier area for Shiraz, and produces a lot of good quality wine, especially where there are older vines that survived the vine pulling incentives of twenty years back.

    I did my wine qualification online with Laithwaites during the first lockdown, and they’re a good company with some good quality wines on their list. However as a principally online/mail order firm they do rely on selling a lot of plonk cheaply to attract new customers. If you are looking for quality it is generally better to look at their mid-range wines rather than the offers.
    Cheers.

    Price reduction for 12 bottles is from an alleged £275 to £138 :smile:

    Mid-range? Certainly not plonk (in my universe).

    I am not Sean T, or Deirdre as he may be currently.
    Do you have a link to the actual case?
    This is the one I ordered:
    https://www.laithwaites.co.uk/product/C05684

    Seems to still be there.
    Very strong, oakey and tannic. Personally I would find it undrinkable.
    It wouldn't be my preference, either, but it is probably good stuff. I'd look to keep some of it for at least a couple of years and a few bottles for longer, rather than drinking it all straight away.
    Must say I've been drinking a lot more Portuguese red lately. Very drinkable.
    I gave up alcohol two years, despite humouring Eadric (Sean) in a discussion of champagnes. I don't miss the alcohol at all.

    However, I enjoyed the occasional red from esoteric regions. A particular favourite was Chateau Musar from the Lebanon. Get the right vintage and it's superb.
    +1 for Lebanese wines, there’s some very good ones out there if you look carefully.
    When Lebanon was having it's Civil War, Chateau Musar was incredibly variable - seemed like half the bottles were corked. And I don't mean the minor stuff - the wine would be actually spoiled.

    But the good ones were worth the risk - it was ridiculously cheap.

    I see since that has ended, the prices have zoomed to the stars.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    I wouldn't be surprised if twitter ban Trump soon after he leaves office. He could easily use his reach to whip up the mob again.

    If Facebook and twitter ban him, he'll struggle to build elsewhere. He doesn't actually have a proper Parler profile yet, & the reach isn't the same.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019

    IanB2 said:

    Only 43 house Reps opposing the PA objection

    The party deserves to be electorally obliterated. It no longer supports democracy.
    Yes. Why do people like Romney continue to be registered Republicans in this situation?

    The tradition of floor-crossing if you don't agree with your party is actually quite rare in the US (and it's becoming rare in Britain too - why are Ken Clarke and Dominic Grieve still nominally Tory?). The tradition is that you choose a tribe and stick with it for life. If it goes mad, you shake your head and either keep your head down or make a speech regretting the insanity.

    I'm a party loyalist - I've been a member for 50 years. But if Starmer, or Corbyn, or any other past, present or future leader, refused to recognise an election on transparently vacuous grounds and incited a mob to attack Parliament, I'd resign. Tribal loyalty should have limits.
    I suppose the counter-argument is they want to stay to change it.

    Ken Clarke is definitely a Conservative, and much less left-wing than people think he is, but he is socially liberal and a europhile. Grieve, by contrast, is fairly socially conservative and a europhile.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Joe Biden has got one hell of a job on his hands...

    The trumpian lot are totally mental, can easily be whipped up into a frenzy and showed yesterday that transforming from a bit of joke bunch to something much more dangerous (luckily it appears that are as thick as shit and currently totally unorganised). I fear we may see more incidents like the Christmas day bomber, but without the warning.

    And at the same time the far left nutters haven't gone away...this is still going on most days.

    https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice/status/1347057880151674885?s=19

    Cant see him succeeding

    If he wanted to have a clean break with the past - which frankly the US needs - Nancy Pelosi would not be speaker. This is more of the same and the problems keep bubbling.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Sandpit said:

    FPT - Johnson was predicting workers would flock back to offices once the pandemic ends; he's not encouraging them to do so now, or soon.

    FWIW, I don't agree. I think a 3-day week will become the new 5-day week (with most workers WFH on Mondays and Fridays) and some only coming in for one or two days, but of course it's impossible to predict with any certainty at this stage:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/01/06/boris-johnson-predicts-workers-will-flock-back-offices-pandemic/

    There’s no chance of the same level of commuting coming back, especially not into central London. Many companies have found that any drop in productivity with everyone WFH is outweighed by the cost of maintaining sufficient office space for everyone.

    I’m expecting a solution for many companies based around a few days a month in the office for each team, that allows them to move out of daily commutable distance from London. The offices themselves might end up out of town too, with minimal space retained in the capital for those who really have to work alongside suppliers and customers on a face-to-face basis.

    Johnson is trying to keep GDP up by having everyone buy coffees and lunches, and avoid having to put billions into the railways.
    Yes, agreed.
This discussion has been closed.