The start of the mass vaccination programme should do wonders for the public mood – politicalbetting

System

The start of the mass vaccination programme should do wonders for the public mood – politicalbetting.com

On a personal note I am a 74 year old male with a pre-existing respiratory condition and ever since the COVID crisis began last March my overwhelming objective each day has been not to catch it. My recurring nightmare has been dying alone in hospital without my loved ones around me.

Read the full story here

TimT

With 10,000 persons trained to deliver vaccinations, 1m per week seems a little on the low side. That is only 100 vaccinations per week per medic, or 20 a day. I wonder if the issue is supply.

For the UK to have everyone vaccinated by end of June 2021, the need is for 10m per month, or 2.5m per week, not one.

williamglenn

Odd verdict on Boris Johnson's deal from the Spectator:

"The Brexit deal takes things back to where they were before Maastricht. The EU is limited now in any meddling to very specific areas indeed."

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-small-print-of-boris-s-brexit-deal-makes-for-reassuring-reading

TimT

An interesting take from an otherwise trashy Murdoch rag, the New York Post:

"We are in the midst of a rare political realignment, in which Democrats are emerging as the party of the college-educated elite and Republicans are emerging as the party of the working class. But while this realignment remains in flux, neoliberal elites of both parties, for now, have more in common with one another than they do with the core voters of their respective parties."

https://nypost.com/2020/12/25/a-populist-wish-list-as-we-head-into-2021/

Mysticrose

A great thread from Mike and heartfelt.

I too am one of Boris' biggest critics on here but the Government have done very well on the vaccines. The vaccine rollout will change the world and is an astonishing achievement of science.

ajb

The big debate soon will be what to do once the vulnerable have been vaccinated. With the new strain, the choice will eventually be between everyone ending up in tier 4 until the end of vaccination, or letting it rip. The temptation will be to go for the latter, explicitly or implicitly. It's not clear to me what the right answer is, as covid is still worse than the flu, and as we've seen with the new strain, the course of the pandemic is not entirely predictable.

Sandpit

Good piece Mike. My parents are in a similar situation to yourself, and spent Christmas on their own this year for the first time in their 45 year marriage - thankfully aided by various technologies to keep in touch with family by video call.

The approval of a vaccine that can be administered quickly in large numbers, without complex logistics, is a genuine game-changer and the light at the end of the tunnel.

Congratulations to the vaccine procurement team, treasury and MHRA, who made the decisions to buy as many different vaccines as possible, and to innovative parallel methodologies for approval in record time.

Sandpit

TimT said:

With 10,000 persons trained to deliver vaccinations, 1m per week seems a little on the low side. That is only 100 vaccinations per week per medic, or 20 a day. I wonder if the issue is supply.

For the UK to have everyone vaccinated by end of June 2021, the need is for 10m per month, or 2.5m per week, not one.

Yes, if the Oxford jab is indeed like a ‘flu jab, then the medics should be each able to process 200 jabs a day.

Now presumably there’s going to be a lot of admin and logistics staff at the large regional vaccination centres, as well as nurses, and the 10,000 figure likely includes averyone down to car park marshals.

If there’s any excess supply of vaccine, that could be sent to GP surgeries and pharmacies for immediate use, and they’re unlikely to be short of people willing to staff more large centres where demand exists.

Meanwhile, the more complex Pfizer vaccine can keep going to the over 65s and vulnerable groups, as it is now.

alex_

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

Pulpstar

TimT said:

An interesting take from an otherwise trashy Murdoch rag, the New York Post:

"We are in the midst of a rare political realignment, in which Democrats are emerging as the party of the college-educated elite and Republicans are emerging as the party of the working class. But while this realignment remains in flux, neoliberal elites of both parties, for now, have more in common with one another than they do with the core voters of their respective parties."

https://nypost.com/2020/12/25/a-populist-wish-list-as-we-head-into-2021/

I think the republicans are emerging as the party of those that enjoy being Mitch's bitches.
The best thing for him would be to turn him into turtle soup. He's more repulsive than Trump in many ways

OldKingCole

Good morning. What a strange Bank Holiday. How do we tell, this time!

And on the vaccination campaign, I may be being curmudgeonly but it seems to have ground to a halt locally.

SouthamObserver

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Roger

TimT said:

An interesting take from an otherwise trashy Murdoch rag, the New York Post:

"We are in the midst of a rare political realignment, in which Democrats are emerging as the party of the college-educated elite and Republicans are emerging as the party of the working class. But while this realignment remains in flux, neoliberal elites of both parties, for now, have more in common with one another than they do with the core voters of their respective parties."

https://nypost.com/2020/12/25/a-populist-wish-list-as-we-head-into-2021/

Your four lines are everything that's interesting in the article. The rest is just a right wing rant from an organ little different from the Sun. But the four lines and the photo make it worth looking at as you suggest.

IanB2

Whether the vaccinated can still spread the virus to others (which is related to the question as to whether they can still catch it asymptomatically) is going to become a key question, to which currently we don’t seem to have any sort of answer.

Meanwhile it is clearly too early to assess whether or not the huge logistical exercise of dispensing the vaccine is going to be a success. We know the PM’s attention span, such as it is, has been entirely devoted to Brexit, and we appear to be relying on Zadawi - who is not even in Cabinet and whose name I probably cannot spell - to do the planning and requisite knocking together of heads.

What we do know is that the progress and outcome of various national vaccination programmes is destined to be compared even more widely than has been the progress of the virus.

alex_

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

IanB2

Meanwhile a rare Trump concession in the US:

Donald Trump has signed the Covid-19 relief and spending bill after days of delays, preventing a mid-pandemic government shutdown.

The announcement on Sunday night after Republicans urged him to act following his refusal to sign the bill, a decision that meant millions of Americans lost unemployment aid.

felix

IanB2 said:

Whether the vaccinated can still spread the virus to others (which is related to the question as to whether they can still catch it asymptomatically) is going to become a key question, to which currently we don’t seem to have any sort of answer.

Meanwhile it is clearly too early to assess whether or not the huge logistical exercise of dispensing the vaccine is going to be a success. We know the PM’s attention span, such as it is, has been entirely devoted to Brexit, and we appear to be relying on Zadawi - who is not even in Cabinet and whose name I probably cannot spell - to do the planning and requisite knocking together of heads.

What we do know is that the progress and outcome of various national vaccination programmes is destined to be compared even more widely than has been the progress of the virus.

There as been a 1 day delay for the Pfizer delivery due this morning to Spain due to logistical problems. These things happen.Spain is due for 3.5 m doses over the next 3 months. I think we all need to be less hysterical and show a little more patience.

OldKingCole

IanB2 said:

Meanwhile a rare Trump concession in the US:

Donald Trump has signed the Covid-19 relief and spending bill after days of delays, preventing a mid-pandemic government shutdown.

The announcement on Sunday night after Republicans urged him to act following his refusal to sign the bill, a decision that meant millions of Americans lost unemployment aid.

I wonder if he's beginning to recognise the reality of his situation. After all, on Wednesday next week there's another nail, possibly two, in his political coffin.

IanB2

Guardian: In an email sent to colleagues on Boxing Day, Len Richards, the chief executive of Cardiff and Vale University health board in Wales, said: “I understand that there is a great deal of frustration among colleagues with regards to access to the coronavirus vaccine. I can fully understand and appreciate that frustration.”

Richards said the numbers of staff wanting the vaccine “significantly outstrip the amount of vaccine available to us”. The problem had been caused by “an indisputable supply and demand constraint”, and the organisation had had to ration jabs because “the supply is so low”, he added.

Similarly, in a letter to staff on 18 December, the divisional directors for medicine, surgery and nursing at University Hospitals of Derby and Burton NHS trust, admitted that “the absence of clarity” about when workers could have the jab “is causing a high degree of anxiety and concern amongst some groups within our workforce”.

The trio explained that the trust’s “limited capacity for staff vaccination slots” was the result of ministers decreeing that 75% of supplies of the Pfizer jab should be given to those over 80 and 20% to care home personnel, leaving just 5% – or 48 doses from a batch of 975 – for NHS staff.

SouthamObserver

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

If being the operative word. In general, the view from Europe seems to be that the UK has what it wants, which is as little interaction with the EU as possible. Presumably, the withdrawal from Erasmus is seen in that light. From what I know of the scheme, it is less about study at elite universities and more about the chance to live in and experience the culture of a different country for a year. Having done it myself for five years in Spain (lived abroad, not been on Erasmus) I can certainly recommend doing it. For me, it changed my life. It's a shame that fewer of our young people will get that opportunity, though the kids of wealthy parents will be absolutely fine, so that's a relief.

alex_

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

Personally/instinctively i think it's a problem that any of the "mutually beneficial" EU schemes should have got mixed up or associated with the post Brexit deal discussions. When individual schemes exist because they benefit both/all parties, logic suggests that they would get agreed anyway. They are not there as beneficial items for one party to be traded against other things. I wouldn't be surprised if we're back in Erasmus before very long once the dust has settled.

OldKingCole

In other news Australia need another 3 to make India bat again, with 4 wickets left. Looks like they'll either have to do what they did oin the last Test, or it'll be a triumph for Rahane and India.

SouthamObserver

On topic - yes, the vaccines are an absolute game changer. They are all stunning achievements, but the Oxford one - assuming it gets approval - is simply extraordinary. I remember we interviewed their tech transfer head in April, before the deal with Astra Zeneca was done, and it seemed like an exciting possibility. Now it is just days from reality. Just amazing.

https://www.iam-media.com/coronavirus/exclusive-new-ip-policy-help-forge-partnerships-potential-uk-covid-19-vaccine

Roger

In the New York Post reading further on from the article TimT posted is one saying Macron is severely ill with covid 'and if he isn't able to carry on......' I can't post it because it's too full of ads and I don't want to accept cookies from it but I can't find much elsewhere on his critical condition. Anyone know anything?

IanB2

OldKingCole said:

IanB2 said:

Meanwhile a rare Trump concession in the US:

Donald Trump has signed the Covid-19 relief and spending bill after days of delays, preventing a mid-pandemic government shutdown.

The announcement on Sunday night after Republicans urged him to act following his refusal to sign the bill, a decision that meant millions of Americans lost unemployment aid.

I wonder if he's beginning to recognise the reality of his situation. After all, on Wednesday next week there's another nail, possibly two, in his political coffin.

Hopefully. Because the recent interview with his own niece, psychologist Mary Trump, in which she claims he now “hates America” because it rejected him, didn’t bode well.

Roger

SouthamObserver said:

On topic - yes, the vaccines are an absolute game changer. They are all stunning achievements, but the Oxford one - assuming it gets approval - is simply extraordinary. I remember we interviewed their tech transfer head in April, before the deal with Astra Zeneca was done, and it seemed like an exciting possibility. Now it is just days from reality. Just amazing.

https://www.iam-media.com/coronavirus/exclusive-new-ip-policy-help-forge-partnerships-potential-uk-covid-19-vaccine

I bought some shares in them early on because it seemed like an interesting idea and they're now double their value. Surprising because I thought it was all non profit making.

OldKingCole

IanB2 said:

OldKingCole said:

IanB2 said:

Meanwhile a rare Trump concession in the US:

Donald Trump has signed the Covid-19 relief and spending bill after days of delays, preventing a mid-pandemic government shutdown.

The announcement on Sunday night after Republicans urged him to act following his refusal to sign the bill, a decision that meant millions of Americans lost unemployment aid.

I wonder if he's beginning to recognise the reality of his situation. After all, on Wednesday next week there's another nail, possibly two, in his political coffin.

Hopefully. Because the recent interview with his own niece, psychologist Mary Trump, in which she claims he now “hates America” because it rejected him, didn’t bode well.

I neither saw nor read the interview, but I wonder whether she has actually been anywhere near him recently. Family gatherings in the wider Trump family must be 'interesting' events!

OldKingCole

Roger said:

SouthamObserver said:

On topic - yes, the vaccines are an absolute game changer. They are all stunning achievements, but the Oxford one - assuming it gets approval - is simply extraordinary. I remember we interviewed their tech transfer head in April, before the deal with Astra Zeneca was done, and it seemed like an exciting possibility. Now it is just days from reality. Just amazing.

https://www.iam-media.com/coronavirus/exclusive-new-ip-policy-help-forge-partnerships-potential-uk-covid-19-vaccine

I bought some shares in them early on because it seemed like an interesting idea and they're now double their value. Surprising because I thought it was all non profit making.

Are not AZN involved in a takeover of some sort?

Roger

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

The Sorbonne or Hull....tough choice

alex_

TimT said:

An interesting take from an otherwise trashy Murdoch rag, the New York Post:

"We are in the midst of a rare political realignment, in which Democrats are emerging as the party of the college-educated elite and Republicans are emerging as the party of the working class. But while this realignment remains in flux, neoliberal elites of both parties, for now, have more in common with one another than they do with the core voters of their respective parties."

https://nypost.com/2020/12/25/a-populist-wish-list-as-we-head-into-2021/

This is possibly even more interesting.

https://nypost.com/2020/12/27/give-it-up-mr-president-for-your-sake-and-the-nations/

Sandpit

SouthamObserver said:

On topic - yes, the vaccines are an absolute game changer. They are all stunning achievements, but the Oxford one - assuming it gets approval - is simply extraordinary. I remember we interviewed their tech transfer head in April, before the deal with Astra Zeneca was done, and it seemed like an exciting possibility. Now it is just days from reality. Just amazing.

https://www.iam-media.com/coronavirus/exclusive-new-ip-policy-help-forge-partnerships-potential-uk-covid-19-vaccine

That’s a very good piece. It appears that they are just as innovative about pricing and licensing their vaccine, as they were in developing it in the first place.

alex_

Roger said:

In the New York Post reading further on from the article TimT posted is one saying Macron is severely ill with covid 'and if he isn't able to carry on......' I can't post it because it's too full of ads and I don't want to accept cookies from it but I can't find much elsewhere on his critical condition. Anyone know anything?

I read he was over the worst and symptom free. Not sure he ever went to hospital.

Pulpstar

alex_ said:

Roger said:

In the New York Post reading further on from the article TimT posted is one saying Macron is severely ill with covid 'and if he isn't able to carry on......' I can't post it because it's too full of ads and I don't want to accept cookies from it but I can't find much elsewhere on his critical condition. Anyone know anything?

I read he was over the worst and symptom free. Not sure he ever went to hospital.

NY Times says he is sympton free

Alistair

A tale as old as time

https://twitter.com/SethCotlar/status/1343092055384285184?s=19

Roger

alex_ said:

Roger said:

In the New York Post reading further on from the article TimT posted is one saying Macron is severely ill with covid 'and if he isn't able to carry on......' I can't post it because it's too full of ads and I don't want to accept cookies from it but I can't find much elsewhere on his critical condition. Anyone know anything?

I read he was over the worst and symptom free. Not sure he ever went to hospital.

Thanks. So the NYP is like the Sun!

alex_

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

If being the operative word. In general, the view from Europe seems to be that the UK has what it wants, which is as little interaction with the EU as possible. Presumably, the withdrawal from Erasmus is seen in that light. From what I know of the scheme, it is less about study at elite universities and more about the chance to live in and experience the culture of a different country for a year. Having done it myself for five years in Spain (lived abroad, not been on Erasmus) I can certainly recommend doing it. For me, it changed my life. It's a shame that fewer of our young people will get that opportunity, though the kids of wealthy parents will be absolutely fine, so that's a relief.

And on that measure the loss of the UK to the scheme is even bigger - leaving Ireland as the only English speaking option for European students. I'm not raising this as an issue of how much of a loss it is or isn't to the UK. Just whether the EU see it as a loss to their own populations.

Of course if they think it was an entire UK choice that the EU couldn't have influenced by acting differently then it's moot.

Fenman

Roger said:

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

The Sorbonne or Hull....tough choice

Went to both. Sorbonne was a bit full of itself. Hull had good beer and nicer people.

SouthamObserver

Sandpit said:

SouthamObserver said:

On topic - yes, the vaccines are an absolute game changer. They are all stunning achievements, but the Oxford one - assuming it gets approval - is simply extraordinary. I remember we interviewed their tech transfer head in April, before the deal with Astra Zeneca was done, and it seemed like an exciting possibility. Now it is just days from reality. Just amazing.

https://www.iam-media.com/coronavirus/exclusive-new-ip-policy-help-forge-partnerships-potential-uk-covid-19-vaccine

That’s a very good piece. It appears that they are just as innovative about pricing and licensing their vaccine, as they were in developing it in the first place.

Yep - tech transfer is an area in which the UK is genuinely a world leader. It is something we have to nurture very carefully over the coming years.

Roger

Fenman said:

Roger said:

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

The Sorbonne or Hull....tough choice

Went to both. Sorbonne was a bit full of itself. Hull had good beer and nicer people.

Only on PB!

SouthamObserver

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

If being the operative word. In general, the view from Europe seems to be that the UK has what it wants, which is as little interaction with the EU as possible. Presumably, the withdrawal from Erasmus is seen in that light. From what I know of the scheme, it is less about study at elite universities and more about the chance to live in and experience the culture of a different country for a year. Having done it myself for five years in Spain (lived abroad, not been on Erasmus) I can certainly recommend doing it. For me, it changed my life. It's a shame that fewer of our young people will get that opportunity, though the kids of wealthy parents will be absolutely fine, so that's a relief.

And on that measure the loss of the UK to the scheme is even bigger - leaving Ireland as the only English speaking option for European students. I'm not raising this as an issue of how much of a loss it is or isn't to the UK. Just whether the EU see it as a loss to their own populations.

Of course if they think it was an entire UK choice that the EU couldn't have influenced by acting differently then it's moot.

The EU certainly hasn't won, that is for sure. My guess is that once we have all grown up a bit the Turing scheme will slide back into Erasmus. But it will take a few years of silly buggers first.

Roger

OldKingCole said:

Roger said:

SouthamObserver said:

On topic - yes, the vaccines are an absolute game changer. They are all stunning achievements, but the Oxford one - assuming it gets approval - is simply extraordinary. I remember we interviewed their tech transfer head in April, before the deal with Astra Zeneca was done, and it seemed like an exciting possibility. Now it is just days from reality. Just amazing.

https://www.iam-media.com/coronavirus/exclusive-new-ip-policy-help-forge-partnerships-potential-uk-covid-19-vaccine

I bought some shares in them early on because it seemed like an interesting idea and they're now double their value. Surprising because I thought it was all non profit making.

Are not AZN involved in a takeover of some sort?

AZN are I believe but their fortunes and Oxford Biomedica don't seem to be related.

nichomar

felix said:

IanB2 said:

Whether the vaccinated can still spread the virus to others (which is related to the question as to whether they can still catch it asymptomatically) is going to become a key question, to which currently we don’t seem to have any sort of answer.

Meanwhile it is clearly too early to assess whether or not the huge logistical exercise of dispensing the vaccine is going to be a success. We know the PM’s attention span, such as it is, has been entirely devoted to Brexit, and we appear to be relying on Zadawi - who is not even in Cabinet and whose name I probably cannot spell - to do the planning and requisite knocking together of heads.

What we do know is that the progress and outcome of various national vaccination programmes is destined to be compared even more widely than has been the progress of the virus.

There as been a 1 day delay for the Pfizer delivery due this morning to Spain due to logistical problems. These things happen.Spain is due for 3.5 m doses over the next 3 months. I think we all need to be less hysterical and show a little more patience.

Problem was in Belgium with eight countries affected.

Theuniondivvie

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

I haven’t seen any indication of what this apparent tripling of the cost means compared to what non EU countries pay to participate; is it roughly comparable?

I read that Spain, Germany, France and Italy are the most popular destinations, so perhaps the UK is a bit more of an average country than it thinks it is.

SouthamObserver

Roger said:

OldKingCole said:

Roger said:

SouthamObserver said:

On topic - yes, the vaccines are an absolute game changer. They are all stunning achievements, but the Oxford one - assuming it gets approval - is simply extraordinary. I remember we interviewed their tech transfer head in April, before the deal with Astra Zeneca was done, and it seemed like an exciting possibility. Now it is just days from reality. Just amazing.

https://www.iam-media.com/coronavirus/exclusive-new-ip-policy-help-forge-partnerships-potential-uk-covid-19-vaccine

I bought some shares in them early on because it seemed like an interesting idea and they're now double their value. Surprising because I thought it was all non profit making.

Are not AZN involved in a takeover of some sort?

AZN are I believe but their fortunes and Oxford Biomedica don't seem to be related.

Astra Zeneca has a deal with the University and has contracted a portion of the manufacture of the vaccine to Oxford Biomedica.

Theuniondivvie

Leader of fisher folk on R4 asked by Nick Robinson asked if he was unhappy with BJ’s deal; angry, disappointed and betrayed are better descriptions was the reply.

Govey will be on later to tell him why he was wrong.

Roger

OT. Starmer needs a new shadow chancellor urgently. It's a job that requires self assurance and calm. Unfortunately she shows neither

Roger

Theuniondivvie said:

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

I haven’t seen any indication of what this apparent tripling of the cost means compared to what non EU countries pay to participate; is it roughly comparable?

I read that Spain, Germany, France and Italy are the most popular destinations, so perhaps the UK is a bit more of an average country than it thinks it is.

I believe Ireland is also popular or at least it used to be. Another good reason for Scotland to go it alone. It can take its excellent universities with it.

OldKingCole

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

If being the operative word. In general, the view from Europe seems to be that the UK has what it wants, which is as little interaction with the EU as possible. Presumably, the withdrawal from Erasmus is seen in that light. From what I know of the scheme, it is less about study at elite universities and more about the chance to live in and experience the culture of a different country for a year. Having done it myself for five years in Spain (lived abroad, not been on Erasmus) I can certainly recommend doing it. For me, it changed my life. It's a shame that fewer of our young people will get that opportunity, though the kids of wealthy parents will be absolutely fine, so that's a relief.

And on that measure the loss of the UK to the scheme is even bigger - leaving Ireland as the only English speaking option for European students. I'm not raising this as an issue of how much of a loss it is or isn't to the UK. Just whether the EU see it as a loss to their own populations.

Of course if they think it was an entire UK choice that the EU couldn't have influenced by acting differently then it's moot.

The EU certainly hasn't won, that is for sure. My guess is that once we have all grown up a bit the Turing scheme will slide back into Erasmus. But it will take a few years of silly buggers first.

Even if the EU scheme has 'increased it's prices' recently, surely the Turing scheme can't be much cheaper. Especially if it involves flying people to Australian or Indian Universities? I suppose living costs at the latter might be lower.

Philip_Thompson

IanB2 said:

Guardian: In an email sent to colleagues on Boxing Day, Len Richards, the chief executive of Cardiff and Vale University health board in Wales, said: “I understand that there is a great deal of frustration among colleagues with regards to access to the coronavirus vaccine. I can fully understand and appreciate that frustration.”

Richards said the numbers of staff wanting the vaccine “significantly outstrip the amount of vaccine available to us”. The problem had been caused by “an indisputable supply and demand constraint”, and the organisation had had to ration jabs because “the supply is so low”, he added.

Similarly, in a letter to staff on 18 December, the divisional directors for medicine, surgery and nursing at University Hospitals of Derby and Burton NHS trust, admitted that “the absence of clarity” about when workers could have the jab “is causing a high degree of anxiety and concern amongst some groups within our workforce”.

The trio explained that the trust’s “limited capacity for staff vaccination slots” was the result of ministers decreeing that 75% of supplies of the Pfizer jab should be given to those over 80 and 20% to care home personnel, leaving just 5% – or 48 doses from a batch of 975 – for NHS staff.

So 95% going to the first Tier priorities and 5% going to the second tier on the rollout programme?

Should that be a shock? Or news?

Roger

SouthamObserver said:

Roger said:

OldKingCole said:

Roger said:

SouthamObserver said:

On topic - yes, the vaccines are an absolute game changer. They are all stunning achievements, but the Oxford one - assuming it gets approval - is simply extraordinary. I remember we interviewed their tech transfer head in April, before the deal with Astra Zeneca was done, and it seemed like an exciting possibility. Now it is just days from reality. Just amazing.

https://www.iam-media.com/coronavirus/exclusive-new-ip-policy-help-forge-partnerships-potential-uk-covid-19-vaccine

I bought some shares in them early on because it seemed like an interesting idea and they're now double their value. Surprising because I thought it was all non profit making.

Are not AZN involved in a takeover of some sort?

AZN are I believe but their fortunes and Oxford Biomedica don't seem to be related.

Astra Zeneca has a deal with the University and has contracted a portion of the manufacture of the vaccine to Oxford Biomedica.

The share price of Oxford Biomedica have doubled in the last four or five months whereas AZN haven't moved much. I guess Oxford are making money out of the manufacture?

IanB2

OldKingCole said:

Roger said:

SouthamObserver said:

On topic - yes, the vaccines are an absolute game changer. They are all stunning achievements, but the Oxford one - assuming it gets approval - is simply extraordinary. I remember we interviewed their tech transfer head in April, before the deal with Astra Zeneca was done, and it seemed like an exciting possibility. Now it is just days from reality. Just amazing.

https://www.iam-media.com/coronavirus/exclusive-new-ip-policy-help-forge-partnerships-potential-uk-covid-19-vaccine

I bought some shares in them early on because it seemed like an interesting idea and they're now double their value. Surprising because I thought it was all non profit making.

Are not AZN involved in a takeover of some sort?

AZN shares aren't up over the year, and have dipped significantly since they cracked their vaccine

OldKingCole

Philip_Thompson said:

IanB2 said:

Guardian: In an email sent to colleagues on Boxing Day, Len Richards, the chief executive of Cardiff and Vale University health board in Wales, said: “I understand that there is a great deal of frustration among colleagues with regards to access to the coronavirus vaccine. I can fully understand and appreciate that frustration.”

Richards said the numbers of staff wanting the vaccine “significantly outstrip the amount of vaccine available to us”. The problem had been caused by “an indisputable supply and demand constraint”, and the organisation had had to ration jabs because “the supply is so low”, he added.

Similarly, in a letter to staff on 18 December, the divisional directors for medicine, surgery and nursing at University Hospitals of Derby and Burton NHS trust, admitted that “the absence of clarity” about when workers could have the jab “is causing a high degree of anxiety and concern amongst some groups within our workforce”.

The trio explained that the trust’s “limited capacity for staff vaccination slots” was the result of ministers decreeing that 75% of supplies of the Pfizer jab should be given to those over 80 and 20% to care home personnel, leaving just 5% – or 48 doses from a batch of 975 – for NHS staff.

So 95% going to the first Tier priorities and 5% going to the second tier on the rollout programme?

Should that be a shock? Or news?

Although I'm in the first tier, I do see the Chief Exec's point.

CarlottaVance

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

The EU sent twice as many students to the U.K. than vice versa. Erasmus accounted for only half of U.K. student placements abroad. It didn’t sound a great deal at “regular” prices!

felix

CarlottaVance said:

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

The EU sent twice as many students to the U.K. than vice versa. Erasmus accounted for only half of U.K. student placements abroad. It didn’t sound a great deal at “regular” prices!

Apparently many had to suffer the horrors of Hull while our were unimpressed by the Sorbonne. And today is sneary Monday.

alex_

Fenman said:

Roger said:

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

The Sorbonne or Hull....tough choice

Went to both. Sorbonne was a bit full of itself. Hull had good beer and nicer people.

I don't know much about French universities, but if the Sorbonne is put forward as a suitable comparator to Hull then the rest of them must be amazing! How much do they have to pay to go to their equivalent of Oxbridge?

rkrkrk

Vaccine rollout will be the big story of 2021. Unfortunately (predictions follow) - it is not going to go smoothly.

The target of getting 25m at risk population by April will be missed. The logistical challenges are considerable and this govt's delivery record questionable. Vaccine will end up being wasted. It will be hard to identify the right people. There will be another IT debacle.

But most importantly - the manufacturers will not make the promised orders at the promised time - they are already missing them. We will see political pressure to help certain countries first regardless of existing orders.

Lockdown 3 will be lifted too early and as a result we will have Lockdown 4. Calls to vaccinate health workers earlier will intensify. Sadly as many people will die of COVID in 2021 in the UK as in 2020.

The bright news is that the vaccine will work and life will return to normality by next Winter. The economy will come roaring back once the virus is beaten.

In domestic politics, Boris Johnson will come under pressure from the ERG to seize the opportunities of Brexit, such as they are. To head off criticism, he will reshuffle his cabinet and make Priti Patel chancellor.

Relations with the EU will, after an initial honeymoon period, deteriorate as both sides claim the other is not respecting the deal. Both sides will make legal threats. To increase the UK's leverage, Boris Johnson will aggressively pursue a US trade deal, exacerbating relations with Europe.

Brexit will however increasingly come to be accepted by the majority. Starmer will pick a fight with Tony Blair/Alastair Campbell and demote anyone suggesting the UK should rejoin.

Overall 2021 will not be the tonic of a year people are hoping for. The struggle against the virus will consume most of it.

Theuniondivvie

Really looking forward to noted atheist Dickie D. Raging about Easter being excised from confectionary.

https://twitter.com/rationaldis/status/1342202707105484801?s=21

TOPPING

Theuniondivvie said:

Leader of fisher folk on R4 asked by Nick Robinson asked if he was unhappy with BJ’s deal; angry, disappointed and betrayed are better descriptions was the reply.

Govey will be on later to tell him why he was wrong.

He's on now and struggling.

A lot of soundbites but uncomfortable silences on the detail of increased bureaucracy.

Philip_Thompson

alex_ said:

Fenman said:

Roger said:

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

The Sorbonne or Hull....tough choice

Went to both. Sorbonne was a bit full of itself. Hull had good beer and nicer people.

I don't know much about French universities, but if the Sorbonne is put forward as a suitable comparator to Hull then the rest of them must be amazing! How much do they have to pay to go to their equivalent of Oxbridge?

To be fair to Roger he's probably right to only try to equate Sorbonne with Hull as comparable.

They don't have an equivalent of Oxbridge.

Dura_Ace

broke wrist on bike. cant type. happy nrw year. except to tories. fuck them.

alex_

rkrkrk said:

Vaccine rollout will be the big story of 2021. Unfortunately (predictions follow) - it is not going to go smoothly.

The target of getting 25m at risk population by April will be missed. The logistical challenges are considerable and this govt's delivery record questionable. Vaccine will end up being wasted. It will be hard to identify the right people. There will be another IT debacle.

But most importantly - the manufacturers will not make the promised orders at the promised time - they are already missing them. We will see political pressure to help certain countries first regardless of existing orders.

Lockdown 3 will be lifted too early and as a result we will have Lockdown 4. Calls to vaccinate health workers earlier will intensify. Sadly as many people will die of COVID in 2021 in the UK as in 2020.

The bright news is that the vaccine will work and life will return to normality by next Winter. The economy will come roaring back once the virus is beaten.

In domestic politics, Boris Johnson will come under pressure from the ERG to seize the opportunities of Brexit, such as they are. To head off criticism, he will reshuffle his cabinet and make Priti Patel chancellor.

Relations with the EU will, after an initial honeymoon period, deteriorate as both sides claim the other is not respecting the deal. Both sides will make legal threats. To increase the UK's leverage, Boris Johnson will aggressively pursue a US trade deal, exacerbating relations with Europe.

Brexit will however increasingly come to be accepted by the majority. Starmer will pick a fight with Tony Blair/Alastair Campbell and demote anyone suggesting the UK should rejoin.

Overall 2021 will not be the tonic of a year people are hoping for. The struggle against the virus will consume most of it.

You're a bundle of cheer!

One thing - I really don't understand your prediction on COVID deaths if you also think the vaccine will be effective. It will take a serious change in the nature of the virus for this to happen given the demographics of who it kills. Vaccine delays may impact how soon we can start opening up and get back to normal. It's going to have to start killing under 70s in significant numbers for it to beat 2020 on deaths isn't it?

TOPPING

Dura_Ace said:

broke wrist on bike. cant type. happy nrw year. except to tories. fuck them.

Oh mate wht a fckr. Sry to her tht.

ydoethur

felix said:

CarlottaVance said:

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

The EU sent twice as many students to the U.K. than vice versa. Erasmus accounted for only half of U.K. student placements abroad. It didn’t sound a great deal at “regular” prices!

Apparently many had to suffer the horrors of Hull while our were unimpressed by the Sorbonne. And today is sneary Monday.

Do you mean ‘snowy Monday?’ Certainly is in Staffs. Three inches overnight and still going.

Philip_Thompson

Theuniondivvie said:

Really looking forward to noted atheist Dickie D. Raging about Easter being excised from confectionary.

https://twitter.com/rationaldis/status/1342202707105484801?s=21

That seems a really bad example of how it started ... How it's going.

He's making the same point in both Tweets.

Theuniondivvie

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Really looking forward to noted atheist Dickie D. Raging about Easter being excised from confectionary.

https://twitter.com/rationaldis/status/1342202707105484801?s=21

That seems a really bad example of how it started ... How it's going.

He's making the same point in both Tweets.

Oh no he’s not.

alex_

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Really looking forward to noted atheist Dickie D. Raging about Easter being excised from confectionary.

https://twitter.com/rationaldis/status/1342202707105484801?s=21

That seems a really bad example of how it started ... How it's going.

He's making the same point in both Tweets.

Is he? Doesn't the second tweet suggest that 'atheists' are eradicating "Christmas" from everything. Whereas in the first tweet he's suggesting that's something that's being imagined?

Second tweet is like... "ok you were right, but i had nothing to do with it..."

ydoethur

Theuniondivvie said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Really looking forward to noted atheist Dickie D. Raging about Easter being excised from confectionary.

https://twitter.com/rationaldis/status/1342202707105484801?s=21

That seems a really bad example of how it started ... How it's going.

He's making the same point in both Tweets.

Oh no he’s not.

Oh yes he is!

(Is that pantomime enough for the festival holiday season?)

Fenman

Philip_Thompson said:

alex_ said:

Fenman said:

Roger said:

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

The Sorbonne or Hull....tough choice

Went to both. Sorbonne was a bit full of itself. Hull had good beer and nicer people.

I don't know much about French universities, but if the Sorbonne is put forward as a suitable comparator to Hull then the rest of them must be amazing! How much do they have to pay to go to their equivalent of Oxbridge?

To be fair to Roger he's probably right to only try to equate Sorbonne with Hull as comparable.

They don't have an equivalent of Oxbridge.

Well, they have the postgraduate Grands Ecoles the most famous is the ENA. Make Oxbridge look open and egalitarian. Everyone in France you've heard of went there. Including Macron and Barnier. Hollande was in my year.

ydoethur

Fenman said:

Philip_Thompson said:

alex_ said:

Fenman said:

Roger said:

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

The Sorbonne or Hull....tough choice

Went to both. Sorbonne was a bit full of itself. Hull had good beer and nicer people.

I don't know much about French universities, but if the Sorbonne is put forward as a suitable comparator to Hull then the rest of them must be amazing! How much do they have to pay to go to their equivalent of Oxbridge?

To be fair to Roger he's probably right to only try to equate Sorbonne with Hull as comparable.

They don't have an equivalent of Oxbridge.

Well, they have the postgraduate Grands Ecoles the most famous is the ENA. ... Hollande was in my year.

Particularly the female students, I assume?

Roger

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

If being the operative word. In general, the view from Europe seems to be that the UK has what it wants, which is as little interaction with the EU as possible. Presumably, the withdrawal from Erasmus is seen in that light. From what I know of the scheme, it is less about study at elite universities and more about the chance to live in and experience the culture of a different country for a year. Having done it myself for five years in Spain (lived abroad, not been on Erasmus) I can certainly recommend doing it. For me, it changed my life. It's a shame that fewer of our young people will get that opportunity, though the kids of wealthy parents will be absolutely fine, so that's a relief.

When I was 18 I was working as a photographic assistant for a vogue photographer. The hours were long. I'd have to go and pick up a hire van then to Vogue for the clothes then for the models then the photographer and drive to a location to be there for about 9 AM. After a hectic day loading film as fast as my photographer could shoot I'd have to take everyone home and I'd get back about midnight.

On my first break I went to Benidorm for a week. On the beach was a tanned guy about my age sitting on the side of a speedboat called 'Joe's Speedboat'. He was surrounded by beautiful girls and every so often someone would arrive to go water skiing. I've never been so jealous in my life. Why was I working myself into the ground when all I needed was a pair of shades a cheap speedboat.........the temptation was unbearable.

Your first name's not Joe is it?

ydoethur

Australia well in charge of this test, only another 34 runs needed before the declaration and one recognised batsman at the crease.

alex_

Fenman said:

Philip_Thompson said:

alex_ said:

Fenman said:

Roger said:

alex_ said:

SouthamObserver said:

alex_ said:

A fair bit of discussion about Erasmus scheme in recent days. With claims both about what UK students have lost through not being able to go to European universities, or the UK have lost through EU students not coming here.

A question.

Assuming the British Govt reasons for why they have withdrawn from the scheme are true (EU tripling cost) and setting to one side the debate about whether the new Govt scheme represents an adequate replacement, has there been any comment in the EU press about how EU students have now lost the opportunity to come to the EU and study for a year at some of the World's best universities? And even criticism if this IS something that has been triggered by the EU overplaying its hand and perhaps failing to recognise what an asset UK universities possibly were to the scheme compared to perhaps other third party "associate" members?

That is a very heroic assumption in your first line.

Indeed - but if it's true that the cost tripled, then it provided an excuse that wouldn't otherwise have been available. And it must surely be true that the UK brought a lot more to the scheme than your average country.

The Sorbonne or Hull....tough choice

Went to both. Sorbonne was a bit full of itself. Hull had good beer and nicer people.

I don't know much about French universities, but if the Sorbonne is put forward as a suitable comparator to Hull then the rest of them must be amazing! How much do they have to pay to go to their equivalent of Oxbridge?

To be fair to Roger he's probably right to only try to equate Sorbonne with Hull as comparable.

They don't have an equivalent of Oxbridge.

Well, they have the postgraduate Grands Ecoles the most famous is the ENA. Make Oxbridge look open and egalitarian. Everyone in France you've heard of went there. Including Macron and Barnier. Hollande was in my year.

Is that the one that Macron last year banned the French Civil Service from recruiting from?

Fishing

SouthamObserver said:

Sandpit said:

SouthamObserver said:

On topic - yes, the vaccines are an absolute game changer. They are all stunning achievements, but the Oxford one - assuming it gets approval - is simply extraordinary. I remember we interviewed their tech transfer head in April, before the deal with Astra Zeneca was done, and it seemed like an exciting possibility. Now it is just days from reality. Just amazing.

https://www.iam-media.com/coronavirus/exclusive-new-ip-policy-help-forge-partnerships-potential-uk-covid-19-vaccine

That’s a very good piece. It appears that they are just as innovative about pricing and licensing their vaccine, as they were in developing it in the first place.

Yep - tech transfer is an area in which the UK is genuinely a world leader. It is something we have to nurture very carefully over the coming years.

My experience of the field is that we're far behind the US in exploiting science developed in universities, though far ahead of most of Europe. But it's a large area, and the giant US university sector is far from homogeneous (e.g. MIT, Stanford and Harvard are far ahead of Caltech and the UC system).

RochdalePioneers

Theuniondivvie said:

Leader of fisher folk on R4 asked by Nick Robinson asked if he was unhappy with BJ’s deal; angry, disappointed and betrayed are better descriptions was the reply.

Govey will be on later to tell him why he was wrong.

This fishing bloke needs to read the Institute of Government report. A right wing Tory think tank knows far more about fishing than fishing folk, and we've had enough of experts.

Scott_xP

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1343473585684439045

Richard_Tyndall

alex_ said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Really looking forward to noted atheist Dickie D. Raging about Easter being excised from confectionary.

https://twitter.com/rationaldis/status/1342202707105484801?s=21

That seems a really bad example of how it started ... How it's going.

He's making the same point in both Tweets.

Is he? Doesn't the second tweet suggest that 'atheists' are eradicating "Christmas" from everything. Whereas in the first tweet he's suggesting that's something that's being imagined?

Second tweet is like... "ok you were right, but i had nothing to do with it..."

Um no. What he is pointing out is that no one says those things ( replacing Christmas with holiday) and hence the idea that Christmas is being erased is complete garbage. And he is absolutely right. Even he says Merry Christmas in his tweets.

rkrkrk

alex_ said:

rkrkrk said:

Vaccine rollout will be the big story of 2021. Unfortunately (predictions follow) - it is not going to go smoothly.

The target of getting 25m at risk population by April will be missed. The logistical challenges are considerable and this govt's delivery record questionable. Vaccine will end up being wasted. It will be hard to identify the right people. There will be another IT debacle.

But most importantly - the manufacturers will not make the promised orders at the promised time - they are already missing them. We will see political pressure to help certain countries first regardless of existing orders.

Lockdown 3 will be lifted too early and as a result we will have Lockdown 4. Calls to vaccinate health workers earlier will intensify. Sadly as many people will die of COVID in 2021 in the UK as in 2020.

The bright news is that the vaccine will work and life will return to normality by next Winter. The economy will come roaring back once the virus is beaten.

In domestic politics, Boris Johnson will come under pressure from the ERG to seize the opportunities of Brexit, such as they are. To head off criticism, he will reshuffle his cabinet and make Priti Patel chancellor.

Relations with the EU will, after an initial honeymoon period, deteriorate as both sides claim the other is not respecting the deal. Both sides will make legal threats. To increase the UK's leverage, Boris Johnson will aggressively pursue a US trade deal, exacerbating relations with Europe.

Brexit will however increasingly come to be accepted by the majority. Starmer will pick a fight with Tony Blair/Alastair Campbell and demote anyone suggesting the UK should rejoin.

Overall 2021 will not be the tonic of a year people are hoping for. The struggle against the virus will consume most of it.

You're a bundle of cheer!

One thing - I really don't understand your prediction on COVID deaths if you also think the vaccine will be effective. It will take a serious change in the nature of the virus for this to happen given the demographics of who it kills. Vaccine delays may impact how soon we can start opening up and get back to normal. It's going to have to start killing under 70s in significant numbers for it to beat 2020 on deaths isn't it?

Think it depends how long the vaccine will take to roll out. Plus remember vaccinated people will still die from COVID and most people still haven't got the disease yet.

I think this Winter will be really bad.
More people in hospital with COVID now than at start of March lockdown + a more virulent strain + we aren't yet in national lockdown.

We have better treatments but I think likely 2nd wave will be worse.

TOPPING

Richard_Tyndall said:

alex_ said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Really looking forward to noted atheist Dickie D. Raging about Easter being excised from confectionary.

https://twitter.com/rationaldis/status/1342202707105484801?s=21

That seems a really bad example of how it started ... How it's going.

He's making the same point in both Tweets.

Is he? Doesn't the second tweet suggest that 'atheists' are eradicating "Christmas" from everything. Whereas in the first tweet he's suggesting that's something that's being imagined?

Second tweet is like... "ok you were right, but i had nothing to do with it..."

Um no. What he is pointing out is that no one says those things ( replacing Christmas with holiday) and hence the idea that Christmas is being erased is complete garbage. And he is absolutely right. Even he says Merry Christmas in his tweets.

Good morning Richard. Only three days to go until your emancipation from slavery. You must be very excited.

(Edit: are slaves allowed to have emotions?)

ydoethur

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1343473585684439045

Like I say,they won’t want to admit their infection control measures are not working.

Although saying that, and to play devil’s advocate against myself, I have been in close contact with several children who have tested positive for Covid (including confiscating a mobile phone from somebody who showed symptoms from the same afternoon) and yet I have so far not contracted the disease. Meanwhile a large number of colleagues have.

It may just be that I am naturally resistant or have somehow been bloody lucky.

Foxy

Theuniondivvie said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Really looking forward to noted atheist Dickie D. Raging about Easter being excised from confectionary.

https://twitter.com/rationaldis/status/1342202707105484801?s=21

That seems a really bad example of how it started ... How it's going.

He's making the same point in both Tweets.

Oh no he’s not.

Christmas? It's behind you...

eek

RochdalePioneers said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Leader of fisher folk on R4 asked by Nick Robinson asked if he was unhappy with BJ’s deal; angry, disappointed and betrayed are better descriptions was the reply.

Govey will be on later to tell him why he was wrong.

This fishing bloke needs to read the Institute of Government report. A right wing Tory think tank knows far more about fishing than fishing folk, and we've had enough of experts.

Man promised earth is disappointed to discover it's not the entire planet he thought it was it's merely a ton of top soil.

RochdalePioneers

TOPPING said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Leader of fisher folk on R4 asked by Nick Robinson asked if he was unhappy with BJ’s deal; angry, disappointed and betrayed are better descriptions was the reply.

Govey will be on later to tell him why he was wrong.

He's on now and struggling.

A lot of soundbites but uncomfortable silences on the detail of increased bureaucracy.

Having spent decades arguing why red tape was Bad for business and then specifics about how EU rules are red tape that we had to bin then now need to explain that red tape is Good. Only by imposing large amounts of complex and costly red tape on business can they make it more efficient and more competitive. Or something.

TOPPING

ydoethur said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1343473585684439045

Like I say,they won’t want to admit their infection control measures are not working.

Although saying that, and to play devil’s advocate against myself, I have been in close contact with several children who have tested positive for Covid (including confiscating a mobile phone from somebody who showed symptoms from the same afternoon) and yet I have so far not contracted the disease. Meanwhile a large number of colleagues have.

It may just be that I am naturally resistant or have somehow been bloody lucky.

It seems that the one over arching priority of almost everyone I meet and talk to is that schools *must* go back. And for reasons that I think everyone can understand.

Anecdotally it is only teachers (and understandably so as they are in the front line) who seem to disagree.

What should we as a society do?

RochdalePioneers

Dura_Ace said:

broke wrist on bike. cant type. happy nrw year. except to tories. fuck them.

Ouch! There is a reason I stopped riding my bike in the winter - fell off too many times on slippery surfaces

rkrkrk

ydoethur said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1343473585684439045

Like I say,they won’t want to admit their infection control measures are not working.

Although saying that, and to play devil’s advocate against myself, I have been in close contact with several children who have tested positive for Covid (including confiscating a mobile phone from somebody who showed symptoms from the same afternoon) and yet I have so far not contracted the disease. Meanwhile a large number of colleagues have.

It may just be that I am naturally resistant or have somehow been bloody lucky.

So do I win our bet then?

ydoethur

TOPPING said:

ydoethur said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1343473585684439045

Like I say,they won’t want to admit their infection control measures are not working.

Although saying that, and to play devil’s advocate against myself, I have been in close contact with several children who have tested positive for Covid (including confiscating a mobile phone from somebody who showed symptoms from the same afternoon) and yet I have so far not contracted the disease. Meanwhile a large number of colleagues have.

It may just be that I am naturally resistant or have somehow been bloody lucky.

It seems that the one over arching priority of almost everyone I meet and talk to is that schools *must* go back. And for reasons that I think everyone can understand.

Anecdotally it is only teachers (and understandably so as they are in the front line) who seem to disagree.

What should we as a society do?

Well, one thing we won’t do is listen to experts.

So presumably, schools will keep going back and the disease will rapidly be more out control than Hannibal’s elephants at the battle of Zama.

alex_

RochdalePioneers said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Leader of fisher folk on R4 asked by Nick Robinson asked if he was unhappy with BJ’s deal; angry, disappointed and betrayed are better descriptions was the reply.

Govey will be on later to tell him why he was wrong.

This fishing bloke needs to read the Institute of Government report. A right wing Tory think tank knows far more about fishing than fishing folk, and we've had enough of experts.

Not saying you're wrong, but is the Institute of Government widely regarded as a "right wing Tory think tank"? I thought it specialised in training for Civil Servants?

EDIT: Although I'm possibly onfusing it with something else that was widely associated with the Civil Service in the Blair era.

ydoethur

rkrkrk said:

ydoethur said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1343473585684439045

Like I say,they won’t want to admit their infection control measures are not working.

Although saying that, and to play devil’s advocate against myself, I have been in close contact with several children who have tested positive for Covid (including confiscating a mobile phone from somebody who showed symptoms from the same afternoon) and yet I have so far not contracted the disease. Meanwhile a large number of colleagues have.

It may just be that I am naturally resistant or have somehow been bloody lucky.

So do I win our bet then?

I’m betting schools will be kept open. So far, the government are piling on my position.

Benpointer

TimT said:

An interesting take from an otherwise trashy Murdoch rag, the New York Post:

"We are in the midst of a rare political realignment, in which Democrats are emerging as the party of the college-educated elite and Republicans are emerging as the party of the working class. But while this realignment remains in flux, neoliberal elites of both parties, for now, have more in common with one another than they do with the core voters of their respective parties."

https://nypost.com/2020/12/25/a-populist-wish-list-as-we-head-into-2021/

Which Democrats are members of the *neoliberal* elite?

OldKingCole

TOPPING said:

Dura_Ace said:

broke wrist on bike. cant type. happy nrw year. except to tories. fuck them.

Oh mate wht a fckr. Sry to her tht.

It's wicked to mock the afflicted!

Foxy

rkrkrk said:

alex_ said:

rkrkrk said:

Vaccine rollout will be the big story of 2021. Unfortunately (predictions follow) - it is not going to go smoothly.

The target of getting 25m at risk population by April will be missed. The logistical challenges are considerable and this govt's delivery record questionable. Vaccine will end up being wasted. It will be hard to identify the right people. There will be another IT debacle.

But most importantly - the manufacturers will not make the promised orders at the promised time - they are already missing them. We will see political pressure to help certain countries first regardless of existing orders.

Lockdown 3 will be lifted too early and as a result we will have Lockdown 4. Calls to vaccinate health workers earlier will intensify. Sadly as many people will die of COVID in 2021 in the UK as in 2020.

The bright news is that the vaccine will work and life will return to normality by next Winter. The economy will come roaring back once the virus is beaten.

In domestic politics, Boris Johnson will come under pressure from the ERG to seize the opportunities of Brexit, such as they are. To head off criticism, he will reshuffle his cabinet and make Priti Patel chancellor.

Relations with the EU will, after an initial honeymoon period, deteriorate as both sides claim the other is not respecting the deal. Both sides will make legal threats. To increase the UK's leverage, Boris Johnson will aggressively pursue a US trade deal, exacerbating relations with Europe.

Brexit will however increasingly come to be accepted by the majority. Starmer will pick a fight with Tony Blair/Alastair Campbell and demote anyone suggesting the UK should rejoin.

Overall 2021 will not be the tonic of a year people are hoping for. The struggle against the virus will consume most of it.

You're a bundle of cheer!

One thing - I really don't understand your prediction on COVID deaths if you also think the vaccine will be effective. It will take a serious change in the nature of the virus for this to happen given the demographics of who it kills. Vaccine delays may impact how soon we can start opening up and get back to normal. It's going to have to start killing under 70s in significant numbers for it to beat 2020 on deaths isn't it?

Think it depends how long the vaccine will take to roll out. Plus remember vaccinated people will still die from COVID and most people still haven't got the disease yet.

I think this Winter will be really bad.
More people in hospital with COVID now than at start of March lockdown + a more virulent strain + we aren't yet in national lockdown.

We have better treatments but I think likely 2nd wave will be worse.

I wouldn't be quite so pessimistic, but think that you are closer to the truth than the Daily Express, "back to normal by Feb" headlines.

Then there is the massive legacy to deal with. Lots of disability alongside all the deaths. The massive waiting lists and backlogs of other diseases*, the closed businesses that will never re-open, reduced tax receipts for both business and personal tax, and masses and masses of government debt. The big cloud may be that perhaps the virus ain't done with mutating just yet.

* 70% fewer diagnoses of diabetes type 2 this year for example.

TOPPING

RochdalePioneers said:

TOPPING said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Leader of fisher folk on R4 asked by Nick Robinson asked if he was unhappy with BJ’s deal; angry, disappointed and betrayed are better descriptions was the reply.

Govey will be on later to tell him why he was wrong.

He's on now and struggling.

A lot of soundbites but uncomfortable silences on the detail of increased bureaucracy.

Having spent decades arguing why red tape was Bad for business and then specifics about how EU rules are red tape that we had to bin then now need to explain that red tape is Good. Only by imposing large amounts of complex and costly red tape on business can they make it more efficient and more competitive. Or something.

This is why the two sides will never agree. To me (and perhaps you) the fact that UK businesses are going to be saddled with huge new costs and processes is already an indication that Brexit is a failure. To others it is us taking back control.

eek

ydoethur said:

TOPPING said:

ydoethur said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1343473585684439045

Like I say,they won’t want to admit their infection control measures are not working.

Although saying that, and to play devil’s advocate against myself, I have been in close contact with several children who have tested positive for Covid (including confiscating a mobile phone from somebody who showed symptoms from the same afternoon) and yet I have so far not contracted the disease. Meanwhile a large number of colleagues have.

It may just be that I am naturally resistant or have somehow been bloody lucky.

It seems that the one over arching priority of almost everyone I meet and talk to is that schools *must* go back. And for reasons that I think everyone can understand.

Anecdotally it is only teachers (and understandably so as they are in the front line) who seem to disagree.

What should we as a society do?

Well, one thing we won’t do is listen to experts.

So presumably, schools will keep going back and the disease will rapidly be more out control than Hannibal’s elephants at the battle of Zama.

Well the disease will rapidly get out of control as the experiment conducted in Greenwich Secondary schools in early December confirmed.

On the upside once all cohorts have a case the school will be closed for a fortnight so I expect an entertaining period of 2 weeks in isolation, 1 week in school for a lot of children

Except the poor child that is off on the day the newly infectious child is in school as they will spend 2 weeks in school in by themselves in school so the school maximises attendance figures. My niece has seen different 5 students subject to this at her school.

Jonathan

Foxy said:

rkrkrk said:

alex_ said:

rkrkrk said:

Vaccine rollout will be the big story of 2021. Unfortunately (predictions follow) - it is not going to go smoothly.

The target of getting 25m at risk population by April will be missed. The logistical challenges are considerable and this govt's delivery record questionable. Vaccine will end up being wasted. It will be hard to identify the right people. There will be another IT debacle.

But most importantly - the manufacturers will not make the promised orders at the promised time - they are already missing them. We will see political pressure to help certain countries first regardless of existing orders.

Lockdown 3 will be lifted too early and as a result we will have Lockdown 4. Calls to vaccinate health workers earlier will intensify. Sadly as many people will die of COVID in 2021 in the UK as in 2020.

The bright news is that the vaccine will work and life will return to normality by next Winter. The economy will come roaring back once the virus is beaten.

In domestic politics, Boris Johnson will come under pressure from the ERG to seize the opportunities of Brexit, such as they are. To head off criticism, he will reshuffle his cabinet and make Priti Patel chancellor.

Relations with the EU will, after an initial honeymoon period, deteriorate as both sides claim the other is not respecting the deal. Both sides will make legal threats. To increase the UK's leverage, Boris Johnson will aggressively pursue a US trade deal, exacerbating relations with Europe.

Brexit will however increasingly come to be accepted by the majority. Starmer will pick a fight with Tony Blair/Alastair Campbell and demote anyone suggesting the UK should rejoin.

Overall 2021 will not be the tonic of a year people are hoping for. The struggle against the virus will consume most of it.

You're a bundle of cheer!

One thing - I really don't understand your prediction on COVID deaths if you also think the vaccine will be effective. It will take a serious change in the nature of the virus for this to happen given the demographics of who it kills. Vaccine delays may impact how soon we can start opening up and get back to normal. It's going to have to start killing under 70s in significant numbers for it to beat 2020 on deaths isn't it?

Think it depends how long the vaccine will take to roll out. Plus remember vaccinated people will still die from COVID and most people still haven't got the disease yet.

I think this Winter will be really bad.
More people in hospital with COVID now than at start of March lockdown + a more virulent strain + we aren't yet in national lockdown.

We have better treatments but I think likely 2nd wave will be worse.

I wouldn't be quite so pessimistic, but think that you are closer to the truth than the Daily Express, "back to normal by Feb" headlines.

Then there is the massive legacy to deal with. Lots of disability alongside all the deaths. The massive waiting lists and backlogs of other diseases*, the closed businesses that will never re-open, reduced tax receipts for both business and personal tax, and masses and masses of government debt. The big cloud may be that perhaps the virus ain't done with mutating just yet.

* 70% fewer diagnoses of diabetes type 2 this year for example.

Normal is never coming back, at least not for me. For example, my firm has got out of its London leases retain one building. We’re all working at home 3/5 from next year. We’re not alone. That’s a lot of sandwiches not bought.

TOPPING

OldKingCole said:

TOPPING said:

Dura_Ace said:

broke wrist on bike. cant type. happy nrw year. except to tories. fuck them.

Oh mate wht a fckr. Sry to her tht.

It's wicked to mock the afflicted!

I once had a crash on my (motor) bike, resulting in a hairline fracture of my wrist, while I was on the way to hospital to have another bike related injury looked at.

ydoethur

TOPPING said:

ydoethur said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1343473585684439045

Like I say,they won’t want to admit their infection control measures are not working.

Although saying that, and to play devil’s advocate against myself, I have been in close contact with several children who have tested positive for Covid (including confiscating a mobile phone from somebody who showed symptoms from the same afternoon) and yet I have so far not contracted the disease. Meanwhile a large number of colleagues have.

It may just be that I am naturally resistant or have somehow been bloody lucky.

It seems that the one over arching priority of almost everyone I meet and talk to is that schools *must* go back. And for reasons that I think everyone can understand.

Anecdotally it is only teachers (and understandably so as they are in the front line) who seem to disagree.

What should we as a society do?

Incidentally, I think plenty of children would disagree too, and not just for the obvious reason. I had a lot of children who were pretty frightened and upset by the scale of Covid cases within schools, not to mention deeply unsettled by all the disruption it was causing them. Absence from ‘sickness’ was a lot higher this year and I suspect a reluctance to go into a plague pit was part of it, although I only came across one case where a student was brave enough to openly admit it.

TOPPING

ydoethur said:

TOPPING said:

ydoethur said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1343473585684439045

Like I say,they won’t want to admit their infection control measures are not working.

Although saying that, and to play devil’s advocate against myself, I have been in close contact with several children who have tested positive for Covid (including confiscating a mobile phone from somebody who showed symptoms from the same afternoon) and yet I have so far not contracted the disease. Meanwhile a large number of colleagues have.

It may just be that I am naturally resistant or have somehow been bloody lucky.

It seems that the one over arching priority of almost everyone I meet and talk to is that schools *must* go back. And for reasons that I think everyone can understand.

Anecdotally it is only teachers (and understandably so as they are in the front line) who seem to disagree.

What should we as a society do?

Well, one thing we won’t do is listen to experts.

So presumably, schools will keep going back and the disease will rapidly be more out control than Hannibal’s elephants at the battle of Zama.

You put the escalation of cases down to schools?

Benpointer

ydoethur said:

Australia well in charge of this test, only another 34 runs needed before the declaration and one recognised batsman at the crease.

???

Irony overload?

Theuniondivvie

Foxy said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Really looking forward to noted atheist Dickie D. Raging about Easter being excised from confectionary.

https://twitter.com/rationaldis/status/1342202707105484801?s=21

That seems a really bad example of how it started ... How it's going.

He's making the same point in both Tweets.

Oh no he’s not.

Christmas? It's behind you...

FOM
Erasmus
Anyone giving a fcuk what fishermen think
Credibility of Scottish Tories
Access to a pool of recruits for care home work
Respect for the promises of HMG
No border in the Irish Sea

All behind us, feel free to add to the pile.
(at least one of these things may never have existed)

ydoethur

eek said:

On the upside once all cohorts have a case the school will be closed for a fortnight so I expect an entertaining period of 2 weeks in isolation, 1 week in school for a lot of children

Oh yeah? Expect the criteria to be tightened further if it gets bad. Within 1 metre of a student for more than 30 minutes, for one week, would be my guess.

We are talking about a government that has wilfully lied about the state of schools. Don’t assume that just because they want the impossible and actually dangerous they will stop asking for it.

OldKingCole

ydoethur said:

Australia well in charge of this test, only another 34 runs needed before the declaration and one recognised batsman at the crease.

What are you watching; they're under the cosh in Melbourne. Currently lead by 2, 4 wickets left and India to bat again.