Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

In the betting a “deal” moves to a 72% chance following positive vibes from the talks – politicalbet

124

Comments

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    I would be shocked if Johnson rowed back on Christmas. His libertarian instincts would make cancelling Christmas a big ask.
    Who says anything about cancelling it? Smaller, yes. And a good excuse not to have the in-laws around.
    I think Boris will stick with the Christmas arrangements although on the face of it, it is not a good idea.

    A lot of people will be minimising arrangements, well within the guidance.

    I am expecting a lockdown from 28 Dec, harder than the one we have just had, and we may need to keep it in place until end Feb. By end Feb hopefully a large proportion of the 65+ will have had their second vaccine so the exposure to deaths/hospitalisations will be much lower from March.

    Also need to consider keeping schools 'online only' for first half term 2021 ie up to late Feb, I know it's not ideal.
    There is not a politician in the land who is in charge and who is willing to close schools.

    It is insane shibboleth. Secondary teachers are close to total revolt.
    It's one of those inconvienient truths that the virus spreads very nicely indeed round schools.
    I mean, it is fairly clear that Primary Schools are not super spreader locations but Secondary schools are just the pits.

    The insane thing is that the secondary teachers I have spoken too are confident that the kids are getting a worse education being back full time than they would be 50/50 because the total lack of interaction the Covid restrictions bring just destroys the point of being in full time.
    Is it clear? My daughter is in one local primary school and my wife works at another. Covid has ripped through both schools - at least half of each school's bubbles have been off at one time or another with half a dozen or so teachers.
    There is of course a difference between infections and transmission vectors.

    I don’t have the recent data on primary schools to say how infectious they are. What is clear is that it’s storming through secondary schools like you can’t believe it. If the government enforced isolation in schools the way they do in the wider community half of all secondary schools would have had to shut this half term,
  • tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    No, off the top off my head, Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United, Spurs, Chelsea, and Arsenal have never been relegated from the Premier League.
    Correct, Arsenal are on the longest continuous run in the top flight (goes back to WW1).
    And Woolwich Arsenal were only promoted thanks to chicanery.

    https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11564691/how-arsenal-were-voted-into-the-top-flight-over-tottenham-in-1919
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    I dont think Liverpool have, certainly not since the new era of Sky.
    Nor Everton iirc
    For the Premier League it is Liverpool, Everton, Man U, Tottenham, Arsenal and Chelsea: Nice balance - 3 Merseyside, 3 London
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Maybe they'll wait till, oh, the 23rd and then announce Christmas is off, for maximum lolz.

    Eid was crasser than that, wasn't it?

    We'll get to December 24th, a large chunk of the nation will be halfway to where they were going... and then people will be told to Remain Indoors.
    2020 must be the first year in a decade that I've not set foot in a mosque.
    I am way ahead of you on that one ;)
    Ah but I'm a good* Muslim.

    *If you ignore my constant gambling and whoring.
    Have you embraced Bacon Butties or is that still beyond the pale. (You can always take the 5th on that question ;) )
    No I've not eaten anything that cheweth the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof.

    It is curious the parts of Islam I've followed and the ones I've not.

    Pretty much all my friends love bacon, so I've been often told about the joys of eating pig related products.
    I thought Lamb and/or Goat was OK?

    My education continues....
    Oh, lamb and goat is permissible.

    I was just quoting the Old Testament.
    Such a great guide to life in the 21st century.
  • TimT said:

    ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    I dont think Liverpool have, certainly not since the new era of Sky.
    Nor Everton iirc
    For the Premier League it is Liverpool, Everton, Man U, Tottenham, Arsenal and Chelsea: Nice balance - 3 Merseyside, 3 London
    You've just had a fatwa put upon you by every Mancunian for lumping them in with Merseyside.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    No, off the top off my head, Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United, Spurs, Chelsea, and Arsenal have never been relegated from the Premier League.
    Pre Roman Abramovich, Chelsea had a yo-yo tendency, but I can't recall whether that was pre- Premier League.
    I remember Man Utd being relegated from the old first division.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    eristdoof said:

    alex_ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think the virus is spreading via aerosolised form in pubs and restaurants.

    I think it is the shops.

    Thought about going to Sheffield city centre today, saw the crowds, and went back home.
    Pubs and restaurants have social distancing. Shops do not. Although offset against masks.
    I a shop if you are near to someone else it is not for long. In a pub or restaurant, you are sharing the same air with the staff and customers for one or two hours. So even if you are socially distancing, there is still a risk.
    But schools....
  • IanB2 said:

    Maybe they'll wait till, oh, the 23rd and then announce Christmas is off, for maximum lolz.

    Eid was crasser than that, wasn't it?

    We'll get to December 24th, a large chunk of the nation will be halfway to where they were going... and then people will be told to Remain Indoors.
    2020 must be the first year in a decade that I've not set foot in a mosque.
    I am way ahead of you on that one ;)
    Ah but I'm a good* Muslim.

    *If you ignore my constant gambling and whoring.
    Have you embraced Bacon Butties or is that still beyond the pale. (You can always take the 5th on that question ;) )
    No I've not eaten anything that cheweth the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof.

    It is curious the parts of Islam I've followed and the ones I've not.

    Pretty much all my friends love bacon, so I've been often told about the joys of eating pig related products.
    I thought Lamb and/or Goat was OK?

    My education continues....
    Oh, lamb and goat is permissible.

    I was just quoting the Old Testament.
    Such a great guide to life in the 21st century.
    Indeed, sad but our Head of State thinks she was personally anointed by the chap behind the Old Testament.

    She's basically David Icke but with more German heritage.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    No, off the top off my head, Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United, Spurs, Chelsea, and Arsenal have never been relegated from the Premier League.
    Pre Roman Abramovich, Chelsea had a yo-yo tendency, but I can't recall whether that was pre- Premier League.
    I remember Man Utd being relegated from the old first division.
    Something like '74/'75. I remember because the Baggies were relegated the year before and promoted the year after United.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Gaussian said:

    FF43 said:

    TimT said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    Does anyone have any idea why the EU has not approved the Pfizer vaccine?

    They are following the procedures for 'provisional' authorisation, which are more onerous and take longer than those required for the 'emergency' authorisation we used.

    Seems pretty daft to me - if this isn't an emergency, what is? They'll have lost a month.
    The delay will cost lives, clearly the vaccine is safe, Covid in old and ill people is deadly. Its complete madness.
    It looks to me that the difference between the UK and the EU is in the management of adverse effects. The Pfizer vaccine is safe to use in general, but there will be a small proportion of adverse effects, allergies and so on. The EU wants a proper management and reporting plan in place before giving the go-ahead; the UK will deal with these as ad-hoc events. Arguably, the UK and other countries get a free ride from the EU doing this work, but actually it's fine. Vaccines are an international effort.
    A management plan surely can be devised months in advance. Why wait until the vaccine has been submitted?
    I think the risk management plan can only be fully fleshed out once the basis for the decision it's safe to use is fully determined. Any authorisation is conditional on the attributes of the drug. Background infohere.

    I should also say that while the UK will benefit from the EU's risk management plans, these in turn will be informed by early data from the UK rollout.
    The attributes of the drug being the results of the phase three trials, not some management plan that could be planned for months in advance.
    Not necessarily. You can't assess the risks unless you know what the risks are. If you get the basic authorisation out the way as soon as possible, that assessment will follow on after.

    Anyway this is the set of bullet points that the EMA identify as the difference between Emergency Use Authorisation (under which the UK has released the Pfizer vaccine) and the full EMA authorisation:
    • info on the group of people to be given the vaccine;
    • the vaccine's pharmaceutical quality and purity;
    • manufacturing and controls of batches;
    • compliance with international requirements for laboratory testing and conduct of clinical trials;
    • types of immune responses;
    • side effects e.g. with regard to older people, or pregnant women;
    • labelling and package leaflet;
    • the way risks will be managed and monitored once the vaccine is authorised.
    Reference the link above.
    I think risk assessment is highly overrated, particularly where risks cannot be calculated with high degrees of precision or confidence. Risk management does not rely upon risk calculation, but on hazard identification, and upon eliminating or mitigating down to acceptable levels the impacts of the risks associated with those hazards.

    That list identifies hazards. You don't need to calculate the risks to put in place risk controls for them.
    Possibly. I think effects on pregnant women are worth knowing, given they are vaccinating women of childbearing age from the off. Also it's worth knowing if there are age-specific risks, given the main demographic for this vaccine. And these plus other emerging risks will feed into those plans.

    Basically the EMA is going through more hoops. Is it worth it, bearing in mind speed is of the essence? I don't think there is an objective answer to that. My impression is that Germany in particular changed its mind on going with Emergency Authorisation and decided to wait for full authorisation. I can guess their reasons for doing so are (1) that Germany (and some other European counties) have high levels of vaccine sceptics, so any shortcuts to the process will be jumped on, and (2) it won't make much difference to the speed of immunisation given Christmas and a relatively low initial availability of the vaccine, so why not wait a couple of weeks and do it properly?
    So the UK is kindly running a phase 4 trial for the EU?
    It is. While the UK will benefit from the EU's risk management plans, these in turn will be informed by early data from the UK rollout. Vaccines are an international effort.
    Pity in the meantime EU citizens lives are at risk as they delay the vaccination
    Yes. On the other hand the extra steps the EMA are going through may save some lives, if not this time, then with another medication. And if people don't have confidence in the vaccine and its certification and don't take it, that will also have an effect that can be measured in lives. Almost all certification activity is a waste of time, but there is a reason why you are required to do it. The cost/benefit on specific certification activities isn't a straightforward calculation.
    But in the court of public opinion Germans (and the rest of Europe) seeing the UK actually actively vaccinating against covid while the EU delays is going to cause considerable friction

    Could you even start to imagine if the situation was reversed just how angry the UK citizens would be
    I think there is something in this. The German Health Minister is clearly desperate for a good news story on vaccines, given the general gloom around the Covid situation in Germany. These decisions aren't purely driven by medical or public health imperatives. There is a lot of politics in them.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    TimT said:

    ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    I dont think Liverpool have, certainly not since the new era of Sky.
    Nor Everton iirc
    For the Premier League it is Liverpool, Everton, Man U, Tottenham, Arsenal and Chelsea: Nice balance - 3 Merseyside, 3 London
    You've just had a fatwa put upon you by every Mancunian for lumping them in with Merseyside.
    Northwest. My apologies to Mancunians
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited December 2020
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    No, off the top off my head, Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United, Spurs, Chelsea, and Arsenal have never been relegated from the Premier League.
    Pre Roman Abramovich, Chelsea had a yo-yo tendency, but I can't recall whether that was pre- Premier League.
    I remember Man Utd being relegated from the old first division.
    So do I

    I was a season ticket holder
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    Celtic never relegated since 1890 is pretty impressive.

    Being relegated/promoted is quite good fun. I have seen 3 Leicester City relegation, and 3 promotions. Much more entertaining than mid table obscurity. Even now, I like to see 40 points on the board before relaxing, everything after that is a bonus 😀

    Arsenal won't be relegated, they are crap, but not that crap.
  • DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    No, off the top off my head, Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United, Spurs, Chelsea, and Arsenal have never been relegated from the Premier League.
    Pre Roman Abramovich, Chelsea had a yo-yo tendency, but I can't recall whether that was pre- Premier League.
    I remember Man Utd being relegated from the old first division.
    So do I

    My daughter and I were season ticket holders
    Saw them play Leyton Orient in the old Div 2. Team was improving then but the fans were appalling.

    Plus ca change.
  • TimT said:

    TimT said:

    ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    I dont think Liverpool have, certainly not since the new era of Sky.
    Nor Everton iirc
    For the Premier League it is Liverpool, Everton, Man U, Tottenham, Arsenal and Chelsea: Nice balance - 3 Merseyside, 3 London
    You've just had a fatwa put upon you by every Mancunian for lumping them in with Merseyside.
    Northwest. My apologies to Mancunians
    As a Liverpool supporting Yorkshireman who has spent the last decade working (and occasionally living) in Manchester I can tell you they really don't like Liverpool*.

    *Actually it is Liverpool FC they don't like because Manchester elected a Liverpudlian as Mayor, but he's an Evertonian.
  • ydoethur said:

    Is it clear? My daughter is in one local primary school and my wife works at another. Covid has ripped through both schools - at least half of each school's bubbles have been off at one time or another with half a dozen or so teachers.

    There is of course a difference between infections and transmission vectors.

    I don’t have the recent data on primary schools to say how infectious they are. What is clear is that it’s storming through secondary schools like you can’t believe it. If the government enforced isolation in schools the way they do in the wider community half of all secondary schools would have had to shut this half term,
    And always was going to be like this. You cannot send all the kids back to school safely. We knew that. But instead of finding solutions they just ignored the problem.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    CNN: Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said on MSNBC Monday that he is certain President-elect Joe Biden will get vaccinated and discussions about when that will take place are happening now.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    It's a tie !

    Biden 229 - Trump 229.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    edited December 2020
    Foxy said:

    Celtic never relegated since 1890 is pretty impressive.

    Being relegated/promoted is quite good fun. I have seen 3 Leicester City relegation, and 3 promotions. Much more entertaining than mid table obscurity. Even now, I like to see 40 points on the board before relaxing, everything after that is a bonus 😀

    Arsenal won't be relegated, they are crap, but not that crap.

    The thing is,it is much more fun on the roller coaster than the tram, and supporting a crap team gives endless opportunities for moaning, singing "sack the board" booing players off at the end, etc. Fans of most top 6 clubs never get to enjoy the full pantomime of football fandom.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Foxy said:

    Celtic never relegated since 1890 is pretty impressive.

    Being relegated/promoted is quite good fun. I have seen 3 Leicester City relegation, and 3 promotions. Much more entertaining than mid table obscurity. Even now, I like to see 40 points on the board before relaxing, everything after that is a bonus 😀

    Arsenal won't be relegated, they are crap, but not that crap.

    Admittedly for about a third of that time there was no promotion or relegation in the Scottish football league system.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    Pulpstar said:

    I think the virus is spreading via aerosolised form in pubs and restaurants.

    I think it is the shops.

    Thought about going to Sheffield city centre today, saw the crowds, and went back home.
    Yes. I had to go into Boro a week last Saturday for non-Christmas shopping reasons. It was bloody horrible. Too many people, no distancing, patchy mask compliance. Nobody seemed to care.
    Boro? Bloody horrible? I'm shocked.

    Mind, I really fancy a parmo.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,459
    Foxy said:

    Celtic never relegated since 1890 is pretty impressive.

    Being relegated/promoted is quite good fun. I have seen 3 Leicester City relegation, and 3 promotions. Much more entertaining than mid table obscurity. Even now, I like to see 40 points on the board before relaxing, everything after that is a bonus 😀

    Arsenal won't be relegated, they are crap, but not that crap.

    There is definitely something to be said for frequent churn of your club between the divisions. Sometimes a brief visit to a lower league gives a reset, and you come back stronger. As a Swindon fan, we’ve had some lovely ‘on loan to league 1/league 2 (delete as applicable)’ seasons. However when it stretches from a one season sojourn into a three year slump in the basement, it’s not so much fun...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,893
    Evening all :)

    As expected, London moves into Tier 3 but, apart from the fact I won't be able to sit down and enjoy breakfast in my favourite Barking Road café, it's not going to make much difference to me. On my lunchtime walk there was a lot of traffic going down the Barking Road towards Canning Town which makes me think a lot of people could see the way the wind was blowing and were desperate to get their Christmas shopping done. I suspect tomorrow will also be manic.

    The worst thing for any Government is not to appear to be in control of events. Confidence ebbs when the Government looks to be swept along the river rather than carefully navigating our way between the rocks (as it were).
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Pulpstar said:

    It's a tie !

    Biden 229 - Trump 229.

    Biden back in the lead by a nose. 240-229
  • Pulpstar said:

    I think the virus is spreading via aerosolised form in pubs and restaurants.

    I think it is the shops.

    Thought about going to Sheffield city centre today, saw the crowds, and went back home.
    Yes. I had to go into Boro a week last Saturday for non-Christmas shopping reasons. It was bloody horrible. Too many people, no distancing, patchy mask compliance. Nobody seemed to care.
    Boro? Bloody horrible? I'm shocked.

    Mind, I really fancy a parmo.
    I absolutely hate Middlesbrough. Stockton on the other hand is ok.

    Looks like we're moving north 1st week of February-ish. There will be more Parmo goodness before then - Mrs RP has developed lactose intolerance so has had to stop eating them. More for me then :)

    For any non-smoggies. If you haven't eaten a parmo you haven't lived.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,459

    ydoethur said:

    Is it clear? My daughter is in one local primary school and my wife works at another. Covid has ripped through both schools - at least half of each school's bubbles have been off at one time or another with half a dozen or so teachers.

    There is of course a difference between infections and transmission vectors.

    I don’t have the recent data on primary schools to say how infectious they are. What is clear is that it’s storming through secondary schools like you can’t believe it. If the government enforced isolation in schools the way they do in the wider community half of all secondary schools would have had to shut this half term,
    And always was going to be like this. You cannot send all the kids back to school safely. We knew that. But instead of finding solutions they just ignored the problem.
    There are no easy solutions though are there? You cannot magic up extra teachers for the equivalent of nightingale schools. The physical infrastructure is a huge problem. You cannot assume that all children have access to a pc/laptop and decent broadband, and parents that give a sh1t.
  • Pulpstar said:

    I think the virus is spreading via aerosolised form in pubs and restaurants.

    I think it is the shops.

    Thought about going to Sheffield city centre today, saw the crowds, and went back home.
    Yes. I had to go into Boro a week last Saturday for non-Christmas shopping reasons. It was bloody horrible. Too many people, no distancing, patchy mask compliance. Nobody seemed to care.
    Boro? Bloody horrible? I'm shocked.

    Mind, I really fancy a parmo.
    I absolutely hate Middlesbrough. Stockton on the other hand is ok.

    Looks like we're moving north 1st week of February-ish. There will be more Parmo goodness before then - Mrs RP has developed lactose intolerance so has had to stop eating them. More for me then :)

    For any non-smoggies. If you haven't eaten a parmo you haven't lived.
    You know the chickens have all got the flu as well? :smile:
  • ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Celtic never relegated since 1890 is pretty impressive.

    Being relegated/promoted is quite good fun. I have seen 3 Leicester City relegation, and 3 promotions. Much more entertaining than mid table obscurity. Even now, I like to see 40 points on the board before relaxing, everything after that is a bonus 😀

    Arsenal won't be relegated, they are crap, but not that crap.

    Admittedly for about a third of that time there was no promotion or relegation in the Scottish football league system.
    And for even longer than that, Scottish football has been the equivalent to a pub league.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    No, off the top off my head, Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United, Spurs, Chelsea, and Arsenal have never been relegated from the Premier League.
    Correct, Arsenal are on the longest continuous run in the top flight (goes back to WW1).
    And Woolwich Arsenal were only promoted thanks to chicanery.

    https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11564691/how-arsenal-were-voted-into-the-top-flight-over-tottenham-in-1919
    There should be a statue of Henry Norris outside the Emirates. Arguably the greatest man in the history Arsenal FC.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,668
    edited December 2020
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713

    Foxy said:

    Celtic never relegated since 1890 is pretty impressive.

    Being relegated/promoted is quite good fun. I have seen 3 Leicester City relegation, and 3 promotions. Much more entertaining than mid table obscurity. Even now, I like to see 40 points on the board before relaxing, everything after that is a bonus 😀

    Arsenal won't be relegated, they are crap, but not that crap.

    There is definitely something to be said for frequent churn of your club between the divisions. Sometimes a brief visit to a lower league gives a reset, and you come back stronger. As a Swindon fan, we’ve had some lovely ‘on loan to league 1/league 2 (delete as applicable)’ seasons. However when it stretches from a one season sojourn into a three year slump in the basement, it’s not so much fun...
    I can understand that. Leicester was relegated to the third tier for a season, and the reset was just what we needed to get back to winning ways. I rather enjoyed the football too, seeing new teams live, and was pleasantly surprised at the quality of the football. One season was enough though!
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    TimT said:

    TimT said:

    ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    I dont think Liverpool have, certainly not since the new era of Sky.
    Nor Everton iirc
    For the Premier League it is Liverpool, Everton, Man U, Tottenham, Arsenal and Chelsea: Nice balance - 3 Merseyside, 3 London
    You've just had a fatwa put upon you by every Mancunian for lumping them in with Merseyside.
    Northwest. My apologies to Mancunians
    As a Liverpool supporting Yorkshireman who has spent the last decade working (and occasionally living) in Manchester I can tell you they really don't like Liverpool*.

    *Actually it is Liverpool FC they don't like because Manchester elected a Liverpudlian as Mayor, but he's an Evertonian.
    I think your final point demonstrates that they dislike Tories more than Scousers.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Bad politics drives out good
  • TimT said:

    TimT said:

    ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    I dont think Liverpool have, certainly not since the new era of Sky.
    Nor Everton iirc
    For the Premier League it is Liverpool, Everton, Man U, Tottenham, Arsenal and Chelsea: Nice balance - 3 Merseyside, 3 London
    You've just had a fatwa put upon you by every Mancunian for lumping them in with Merseyside.
    Northwest. My apologies to Mancunians
    As a Liverpool supporting Yorkshireman who has spent the last decade working (and occasionally living) in Manchester I can tell you they really don't like Liverpool*.

    *Actually it is Liverpool FC they don't like because Manchester elected a Liverpudlian as Mayor, but he's an Evertonian.
    I think your final point demonstrates that they dislike Tories more than Scousers.
    Indeed, I was one of the 752 people who voted Tory in the 2012 Manchester Central by election.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,459
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Celtic never relegated since 1890 is pretty impressive.

    Being relegated/promoted is quite good fun. I have seen 3 Leicester City relegation, and 3 promotions. Much more entertaining than mid table obscurity. Even now, I like to see 40 points on the board before relaxing, everything after that is a bonus 😀

    Arsenal won't be relegated, they are crap, but not that crap.

    There is definitely something to be said for frequent churn of your club between the divisions. Sometimes a brief visit to a lower league gives a reset, and you come back stronger. As a Swindon fan, we’ve had some lovely ‘on loan to league 1/league 2 (delete as applicable)’ seasons. However when it stretches from a one season sojourn into a three year slump in the basement, it’s not so much fun...
    I can understand that. Leicester was relegated to the third tier for a season, and the reset was just what we needed to get back to winning ways. I rather enjoyed the football too, seeing new teams live, and was pleasantly surprised at the quality of the football. One season was enough though!
    Were you at the Swindon game? We nearly mugged your lot good and proper... my Leicester mate who I gone with was planning on not driving me back home after...
  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    No, off the top off my head, Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United, Spurs, Chelsea, and Arsenal have never been relegated from the Premier League.
    Correct, Arsenal are on the longest continuous run in the top flight (goes back to WW1).
    And Woolwich Arsenal were only promoted thanks to chicanery.

    https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11564691/how-arsenal-were-voted-into-the-top-flight-over-tottenham-in-1919
    There should be a statue of Henry Norris outside the Emirates. Arguably the greatest man in the history Arsenal FC.
    I'm not sure corruption should be honoured like that.
  • ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    I would be shocked if Johnson rowed back on Christmas. His libertarian instincts would make cancelling Christmas a big ask.
    Who says anything about cancelling it? Smaller, yes. And a good excuse not to have the in-laws around.
    I think Boris will stick with the Christmas arrangements although on the face of it, it is not a good idea.

    A lot of people will be minimising arrangements, well within the guidance.

    I am expecting a lockdown from 28 Dec, harder than the one we have just had, and we may need to keep it in place until end Feb. By end Feb hopefully a large proportion of the 65+ will have had their second vaccine so the exposure to deaths/hospitalisations will be much lower from March.

    Also need to consider keeping schools 'online only' for first half term 2021 ie up to late Feb, I know it's not ideal.
    There is not a politician in the land who is in charge and who is willing to close schools.

    It is insane shibboleth. Secondary teachers are close to total revolt.
    It's one of those inconvienient truths that the virus spreads very nicely indeed round schools.
    I mean, it is fairly clear that Primary Schools are not super spreader locations but Secondary schools are just the pits.

    The insane thing is that the secondary teachers I have spoken too are confident that the kids are getting a worse education being back full time than they would be 50/50 because the total lack of interaction the Covid restrictions bring just destroys the point of being in full time.
    Is it clear? My daughter is in one local primary school and my wife works at another. Covid has ripped through both schools - at least half of each school's bubbles have been off at one time or another with half a dozen or so teachers.
    There is of course a difference between infections and transmission vectors.

    I don’t have the recent data on primary schools to say how infectious they are. What is clear is that it’s storming through secondary schools like you can’t believe it. If the government enforced isolation in schools the way they do in the wider community half of all secondary schools would have had to shut this half term,
    Could be as simple as the bubble size. In primaries, you have 1 class in 1 room with 1 teacher team most of the time. Because of the way secondary curicula work, any cases you get inevitably affect more people.

    But yes... it's obvious that everyone working in schools has flogged their guts out to keep the show on the road this term. Some of the things that have been jettisoned (like insane marking policies) deserved to go, but massive compromises have been made as well. It's also pretty obvious that planned blended learning would have been better than the unplanned collapse that is happening and was foreseeable.

    It's also obvious that teaching is much less attractive as a career if teachers are going to be treated like this. Absent the virus, I ought to be going back into the classroom about now, and I'd really like to avoid that, thankyou very much. On the other hand, if there's a recession coming up, that should balance things out nicely.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Celtic never relegated since 1890 is pretty impressive.

    Being relegated/promoted is quite good fun. I have seen 3 Leicester City relegation, and 3 promotions. Much more entertaining than mid table obscurity. Even now, I like to see 40 points on the board before relaxing, everything after that is a bonus 😀

    Arsenal won't be relegated, they are crap, but not that crap.

    There is definitely something to be said for frequent churn of your club between the divisions. Sometimes a brief visit to a lower league gives a reset, and you come back stronger. As a Swindon fan, we’ve had some lovely ‘on loan to league 1/league 2 (delete as applicable)’ seasons. However when it stretches from a one season sojourn into a three year slump in the basement, it’s not so much fun...
    I can understand that. Leicester was relegated to the third tier for a season, and the reset was just what we needed to get back to winning ways. I rather enjoyed the football too, seeing new teams live, and was pleasantly surprised at the quality of the football. One season was enough though!
    Sunderland fans thought they would bounce back after one season in the third tier. That hasn't worked out as planned.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    No, off the top off my head, Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United, Spurs, Chelsea, and Arsenal have never been relegated from the Premier League.
    Correct, Arsenal are on the longest continuous run in the top flight (goes back to WW1).
    And Woolwich Arsenal were only promoted thanks to chicanery.

    https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11564691/how-arsenal-were-voted-into-the-top-flight-over-tottenham-in-1919
    There should be a statue of Henry Norris outside the Emirates. Arguably the greatest man in the history Arsenal FC.
    I'm not sure corruption should be honoured like that.
    The real corruption, of course, was in the North West:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1915_British_football_match-fixing_scandal
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    TimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    It's a tie !

    Biden 229 - Trump 229.

    Biden back in the lead by a nose. 240-229
    Think things will improve for Biden from here.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Alistair said:

    TimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    It's a tie !

    Biden 229 - Trump 229.

    Biden back in the lead by a nose. 240-229
    Think things will improve for Biden from here.
    If only I'd had that thought after Florida on election night.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Celtic never relegated since 1890 is pretty impressive.

    Being relegated/promoted is quite good fun. I have seen 3 Leicester City relegation, and 3 promotions. Much more entertaining than mid table obscurity. Even now, I like to see 40 points on the board before relaxing, everything after that is a bonus 😀

    Arsenal won't be relegated, they are crap, but not that crap.

    The thing is,it is much more fun on the roller coaster than the tram, and supporting a crap team gives endless opportunities for moaning, singing "sack the board" booing players off at the end, etc. Fans of most top 6 clubs never get to enjoy the full pantomime of football fandom.
    My club nearly went out of business a decade ago.

    It should serve as a salutary lesson to all fans.

    I have friends who are fans of clubs like Villa and Newcastle, I did sympathise with them when they said what really boiled their piss last season was the media's portrayal of Liverpool as some success starved club over the last thirty years.

    In the last 24 years Villa have been relegated and not won a top flight trophy, Newcastle have had two relegations and no trophies since 1969, whereas Liverpool's thirty year drought included 4 League Cups, 3 FA Cups, 1 UEFA Cup, and oh 2 Champions League titles.

    They'd love to be success starved like that.
    I remember when Leicester went into administration and we had two players playing for no wages. There seemed a real risk of disappearing as a club. There was also the credit crunch year, when we were so skint that we couldn't even get a shirt sponsor. A sponsor free shirt is a rare thing indeed in the modern era. So being relegated, or having a losing run is no big deal.

    I remember Ian Botham coming back to England after a season or so down under. When asked why, he replied "you can only take so much bloody sunshine!"

  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    No, off the top off my head, Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United, Spurs, Chelsea, and Arsenal have never been relegated from the Premier League.
    Correct, Arsenal are on the longest continuous run in the top flight (goes back to WW1).
    And Woolwich Arsenal were only promoted thanks to chicanery.

    https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11564691/how-arsenal-were-voted-into-the-top-flight-over-tottenham-in-1919
    There should be a statue of Henry Norris outside the Emirates. Arguably the greatest man in the history Arsenal FC.
    I'm not sure corruption should be honoured like that.
    The real corruption, of course, was in the North West:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1915_British_football_match-fixing_scandal
    There was a war on, you have to make allowances.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Back to parmos, the last time I had one was a posh version in an Italian restaurant in Skipton. The rest of the group couldn't understand my excitement on spotting it on the menu.

    However, it isn't quite the same eating it off a plate rather than a pizza box.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited December 2020
    Eh, it's more than most of them would do even then.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    TimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    It's a tie !

    Biden 229 - Trump 229.

    Biden back in the lead by a nose. 240-229
    It's a rollercoaster thrill ride!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Celtic never relegated since 1890 is pretty impressive.

    Being relegated/promoted is quite good fun. I have seen 3 Leicester City relegation, and 3 promotions. Much more entertaining than mid table obscurity. Even now, I like to see 40 points on the board before relaxing, everything after that is a bonus 😀

    Arsenal won't be relegated, they are crap, but not that crap.

    There is definitely something to be said for frequent churn of your club between the divisions. Sometimes a brief visit to a lower league gives a reset, and you come back stronger. As a Swindon fan, we’ve had some lovely ‘on loan to league 1/league 2 (delete as applicable)’ seasons. However when it stretches from a one season sojourn into a three year slump in the basement, it’s not so much fun...
    I can understand that. Leicester was relegated to the third tier for a season, and the reset was just what we needed to get back to winning ways. I rather enjoyed the football too, seeing new teams live, and was pleasantly surprised at the quality of the football. One season was enough though!
    Were you at the Swindon game? We nearly mugged your lot good and proper... my Leicester mate who I gone with was planning on not driving me back home after...
    Not sure if I was. I don't think I made an away game that season. I may have been at the home game.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,708
    The Wisconsin Republican electors are meeting today, voting for Trump and sending their certificate in to Congress for counting on January 6th.

    Now we know Congress will reject that certificate - because the Democrats control the House and at least five Republican Senators have said they accept Biden as the winner.

    But if the Republicans controlled both Houses and all their Congressmen were united then they absolutely could vote to accept the Wisconsin certificate of votes for Trump.

    I haven't followed the debate re Betfair closely - but even now couldn't they say "Well two certificates have gone to Congress for Wisconsin - we don't yet know which certificate they will accept"

    I'm not sure whether Republican electors for PA, MI and GA are also sending their own certificates to Congress.

    Irrespective of this election, there is surely now a massive problem going forward in that if one Party controls both Houses they can ensure their candidate wins the Presidency (if Party united in doing so). So should Biden try to reform the Electoral Count Act?
  • https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587454878736384

    We need to lockdown now. This is October all over again.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    No, off the top off my head, Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United, Spurs, Chelsea, and Arsenal have never been relegated from the Premier League.
    Correct, Arsenal are on the longest continuous run in the top flight (goes back to WW1).
    And Woolwich Arsenal were only promoted thanks to chicanery.

    https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11564691/how-arsenal-were-voted-into-the-top-flight-over-tottenham-in-1919
    There should be a statue of Henry Norris outside the Emirates. Arguably the greatest man in the history Arsenal FC.
    I'm not sure corruption should be honoured like that.
    The real corruption, of course, was in the North West:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1915_British_football_match-fixing_scandal
    There was a war on, you have to make allowances.
    In times of war the laws do not fall silent.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    MikeL said:

    The Wisconsin Republican electors are meeting today, voting for Trump and sending their certificate in to Congress for counting on January 6th.

    Now we know Congress will reject that certificate - because the Democrats control the House and at least five Republican Senators have said they accept Biden as the winner.

    But if the Republicans controlled both Houses and all their Congressmen were united then they absolutely could vote to accept the Wisconsin certificate of votes for Trump.

    I haven't followed the debate re Betfair closely - but even now couldn't they say "Well two certificates have gone to Congress for Wisconsin - we don't yet know which certificate they will accept"

    I'm not sure whether Republican electors for PA, MI and GA are also sending their own certificates to Congress.

    Irrespective of this election, there is surely now a massive problem going forward in that if one Party controls both Houses they can ensure their candidate wins the Presidency (if Party united in doing so). So should Biden try to reform the Electoral Count Act?

    Alternatively, they might just come to their senses and decide that they will, after all, follow democratic norms by accepting the verdict of the voters.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,459
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Celtic never relegated since 1890 is pretty impressive.

    Being relegated/promoted is quite good fun. I have seen 3 Leicester City relegation, and 3 promotions. Much more entertaining than mid table obscurity. Even now, I like to see 40 points on the board before relaxing, everything after that is a bonus 😀

    Arsenal won't be relegated, they are crap, but not that crap.

    There is definitely something to be said for frequent churn of your club between the divisions. Sometimes a brief visit to a lower league gives a reset, and you come back stronger. As a Swindon fan, we’ve had some lovely ‘on loan to league 1/league 2 (delete as applicable)’ seasons. However when it stretches from a one season sojourn into a three year slump in the basement, it’s not so much fun...
    I can understand that. Leicester was relegated to the third tier for a season, and the reset was just what we needed to get back to winning ways. I rather enjoyed the football too, seeing new teams live, and was pleasantly surprised at the quality of the football. One season was enough though!
    Were you at the Swindon game? We nearly mugged your lot good and proper... my Leicester mate who I gone with was planning on not driving me back home after...
    Not sure if I was. I don't think I made an away game that season. I may have been at the home game.
    Sorry - I meant the one in Leicester. Wasn’t that the season with the controversy about administration and being docked (or not) points, leading to the rule change?
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    MikeL said:

    The Wisconsin Republican electors are meeting today, voting for Trump and sending their certificate in to Congress for counting on January 6th.

    Now we know Congress will reject that certificate - because the Democrats control the House and at least five Republican Senators have said they accept Biden as the winner.

    But if the Republicans controlled both Houses and all their Congressmen were united then they absolutely could vote to accept the Wisconsin certificate of votes for Trump.

    I haven't followed the debate re Betfair closely - but even now couldn't they say "Well two certificates have gone to Congress for Wisconsin - we don't yet know which certificate they will accept"

    I'm not sure whether Republican electors for PA, MI and GA are also sending their own certificates to Congress.

    Irrespective of this election, there is surely now a massive problem going forward in that if one Party controls both Houses they can ensure their candidate wins the Presidency (if Party united in doing so). So should Biden try to reform the Electoral Count Act?

    PA GOP have been reported as doing the same.
  • kle4 said:

    TimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    It's a tie !

    Biden 229 - Trump 229.

    Biden back in the lead by a nose. 240-229
    It's a rollercoaster thrill ride!
    Portsmouth FC. That's a rollercoaster thrill ride.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited December 2020

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587454878736384

    We need to lockdown now. This is October all over again.

    It's weird - if they'd just extended lockdown to, say, now, then even though in actuality the cases would be rising again the lag would have meant it looked ok to have a Christmas hall pass.

    If they were that set on Christmas, why not tell everyone 'Lockdown is being extended 2 more weeks, so you can have Christmas'?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    nico679 said:

    Just imagine if the Dems didn’t hold the House then effectively the election could have been stolen for Trump,.

    The USA is in a terrible state where one party is becoming fascist and where the polarization makes the Brexit divide in the UK look like a love in .

    How would it have been stolen had the GOP taken the House? The electoral votes would have been the same and the
    certification process would have just been a formality by the VP.
    See here, if they had a majority in the House and Senate they could pull this off.

    Trump Allies Eye Long-Shot Election Reversal in Congress, Testing Pence

    Some House Republicans plan to try to use Congress’s tallying of electoral results on Jan. 6 to tip the election to President Trump. The attempt will put Republicans in a pinch.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/13/us/politics/trump-allies-election-overturn-congress-pence.html
    Seems like the longest of long shots, especially with several GOP senators already saying they would never countenance such an idea.
    No chance they would win but I can see a few Republican Senators looking at 2024 voting for it.

    Personally, I think their main aim is to keep the issue in the spotlight rather than fade away, and then hope something comes else out in the same nature as the Hunter Biden investigation. They still wouldn't win but it would tar Biden's Presidency.
    I think that's absolutely right.

    It's not a zero risk strategy though for the Republicans. Indeed, it's a bit of a "this'll help me in the Primaries" play that may dent the Republicans chances in the midterms. Especially as Biden is likely to get a little bit of an economic tailwind from CV19 fading into the distance.
    It could also be to energise the base for the Georgia Senate elections as well, although it's a double-edged sword.

    Re the economic tailwind, I'm inclining more and more to the view the next 18 months will be tough because the damage caused has been so great and because - unless there is 100% faith in the vaccines and their efficiency - consumers and small businesses may be fearful of spending in case there is another outbreak. I hope I am wrong (for the sake of the US) but I am a bit more gloomy.
    BUY the quick recovery!!
    Maybe :) Only though if you are not forecasting a speedy recovery - then I know it isn't going to happen!!
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    TimT said:

    MikeL said:

    The Wisconsin Republican electors are meeting today, voting for Trump and sending their certificate in to Congress for counting on January 6th.

    Now we know Congress will reject that certificate - because the Democrats control the House and at least five Republican Senators have said they accept Biden as the winner.

    But if the Republicans controlled both Houses and all their Congressmen were united then they absolutely could vote to accept the Wisconsin certificate of votes for Trump.

    I haven't followed the debate re Betfair closely - but even now couldn't they say "Well two certificates have gone to Congress for Wisconsin - we don't yet know which certificate they will accept"

    I'm not sure whether Republican electors for PA, MI and GA are also sending their own certificates to Congress.

    Irrespective of this election, there is surely now a massive problem going forward in that if one Party controls both Houses they can ensure their candidate wins the Presidency (if Party united in doing so). So should Biden try to reform the Electoral Count Act?

    PA GOP have been reported as doing the same.
    And GA too: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/republican-electors-pennsylvania-georgia-vote-for-trump
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587454878736384

    We need to lockdown now. This is October all over again.

    Leicester admissions are up again, though not as bad as a month ago, but not yet showing the effect of opening shops. We are Tier 3 so no pubs or restaurants.

    The problem is that there were only 3 weekends free for Christmas shopping, so the shopping is inevitably concentrated, and therefore crowded.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    kle4 said:

    TimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    It's a tie !

    Biden 229 - Trump 229.

    Biden back in the lead by a nose. 240-229
    It's a rollercoaster thrill ride!
    Indeed. It all hangs on how the CA delegate votes!!!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587454878736384

    We need to lockdown now. This is October all over again.

    It's weird - if they'd just extended lockdown to, say, now, then even though in actuality the cases would be rising again the lag would have meant it looked ok to have a Christmas hall pass.

    If they were that set on Christmas, why not tell everyone 'Lockdown is being extended 2 more weeks, so you can have Christmas'?
    Because they didn't have the bottle to tell some what they didn't want to hear.
    Which is weird cos there is virtually no evidence they wouldn't have carried the majority with them.
  • TimT said:

    MikeL said:

    The Wisconsin Republican electors are meeting today, voting for Trump and sending their certificate in to Congress for counting on January 6th.

    Now we know Congress will reject that certificate - because the Democrats control the House and at least five Republican Senators have said they accept Biden as the winner.

    But if the Republicans controlled both Houses and all their Congressmen were united then they absolutely could vote to accept the Wisconsin certificate of votes for Trump.

    I haven't followed the debate re Betfair closely - but even now couldn't they say "Well two certificates have gone to Congress for Wisconsin - we don't yet know which certificate they will accept"

    I'm not sure whether Republican electors for PA, MI and GA are also sending their own certificates to Congress.

    Irrespective of this election, there is surely now a massive problem going forward in that if one Party controls both Houses they can ensure their candidate wins the Presidency (if Party united in doing so). So should Biden try to reform the Electoral Count Act?

    PA GOP have been reported as doing the same.
    "So should Biden try to reform the Electoral Count Act?"

    Yes.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited December 2020
    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587454878736384

    We need to lockdown now. This is October all over again.

    It's weird - if they'd just extended lockdown to, say, now, then even though in actuality the cases would be rising again the lag would have meant it looked ok to have a Christmas hall pass.

    If they were that set on Christmas, why not tell everyone 'Lockdown is being extended 2 more weeks, so you can have Christmas'?
    Completely agree, it should not have been opened up when it was clear the tier system was not working.

    I don't agree with you always but on this you're spot on.
  • Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587454878736384

    We need to lockdown now. This is October all over again.

    Leicester admissions are up again, though not as bad as a month ago, but not yet showing the effect of opening shops. We are Tier 3 so no pubs or restaurants.

    The problem is that there were only 3 weekends free for Christmas shopping, so the shopping is inevitably concentrated, and therefore crowded.
    Hope all well Foxy.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    TimT said:

    kle4 said:

    TimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    It's a tie !

    Biden 229 - Trump 229.

    Biden back in the lead by a nose. 240-229
    It's a rollercoaster thrill ride!
    Indeed. It all hangs on how the CA delegate votes!!!
    Will they think what would Ronald Reagan have wanted us to do?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    The NYT showing its usual neutral tone. Apparently, being an elector before was all roses before nasty DJT in 2020. Funnily enough, the pressure on 2016 electors to switch votes seems to have been forgotten....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z0iuWh3sek
  • https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587459811241985

    Yet again, the Government has failed to learn from their mistakes.

    The cases have never been low enough to consider exiting the lockdown. And yet they made this mistake twice!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    edited December 2020

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Celtic never relegated since 1890 is pretty impressive.

    Being relegated/promoted is quite good fun. I have seen 3 Leicester City relegation, and 3 promotions. Much more entertaining than mid table obscurity. Even now, I like to see 40 points on the board before relaxing, everything after that is a bonus 😀

    Arsenal won't be relegated, they are crap, but not that crap.

    There is definitely something to be said for frequent churn of your club between the divisions. Sometimes a brief visit to a lower league gives a reset, and you come back stronger. As a Swindon fan, we’ve had some lovely ‘on loan to league 1/league 2 (delete as applicable)’ seasons. However when it stretches from a one season sojourn into a three year slump in the basement, it’s not so much fun...
    I can understand that. Leicester was relegated to the third tier for a season, and the reset was just what we needed to get back to winning ways. I rather enjoyed the football too, seeing new teams live, and was pleasantly surprised at the quality of the football. One season was enough though!
    Were you at the Swindon game? We nearly mugged your lot good and proper... my Leicester mate who I gone with was planning on not driving me back home after...
    Not sure if I was. I don't think I made an away game that season. I may have been at the home game.
    Sorry - I meant the one in Leicester. Wasn’t that the season with the controversy about administration and being docked (or not) points, leading to the rule change?
    I was doing Swindon a disservice, thinking League two. It must have been the 2002-3 season in League 1. I don't think Sheffield United have forgiven us for displacing them from promotion while in administration.
  • Pretty sure I read that standard virology theory is that when a virus mutates to spread faster it is less fatal.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587454878736384

    We need to lockdown now. This is October all over again.

    It's weird - if they'd just extended lockdown to, say, now, then even though in actuality the cases would be rising again the lag would have meant it looked ok to have a Christmas hall pass.

    If they were that set on Christmas, why not tell everyone 'Lockdown is being extended 2 more weeks, so you can have Christmas'?
    I don't agree with you always
    Everyone makes mistakes :)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587454878736384

    We need to lockdown now. This is October all over again.

    It's weird - if they'd just extended lockdown to, say, now, then even though in actuality the cases would be rising again the lag would have meant it looked ok to have a Christmas hall pass.

    If they were that set on Christmas, why not tell everyone 'Lockdown is being extended 2 more weeks, so you can have Christmas'?
    That surprised me, too. When the last lockdown was announced thru 3 Dec, I said at the time that I expected it to be extended to mid December so that we could move into Xmas in a good position. Instead they fiddled about with the previous tier system and moved us back into it, provoking a whole new set of political challenges from MPs and mayors unhappy at where the new lines have been drawn.

    The most striking thing about this government, throughout this entire crisis, is its inability to stick to one approach and consistent policy for longer than five minutes.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,706
    That seems to have been responsibly reported...
  • IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587454878736384

    We need to lockdown now. This is October all over again.

    It's weird - if they'd just extended lockdown to, say, now, then even though in actuality the cases would be rising again the lag would have meant it looked ok to have a Christmas hall pass.

    If they were that set on Christmas, why not tell everyone 'Lockdown is being extended 2 more weeks, so you can have Christmas'?
    That surprised me, too. When the last lockdown was announced thru 3 Dec, I said at the time that I expected it to be extended to mid December so that we could move into Xmas in a good position. Instead they fiddled about with the previous tier system and moved us back into it, provoking a whole new set of political challenges from MPs and mayors unhappy at where the new lines have been drawn.

    The most striking thing about this government, throughout this entire crisis, is its inability to stick to one approach and consistent policy for longer than five minutes.
    Can't for the life of me think where the government's inability to make clear strategic decisions and stick to them comes from.
  • IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587454878736384

    We need to lockdown now. This is October all over again.

    It's weird - if they'd just extended lockdown to, say, now, then even though in actuality the cases would be rising again the lag would have meant it looked ok to have a Christmas hall pass.

    If they were that set on Christmas, why not tell everyone 'Lockdown is being extended 2 more weeks, so you can have Christmas'?
    That surprised me, too. When the last lockdown was announced thru 3 Dec, I said at the time that I expected it to be extended to mid December so that we could move into Xmas in a good position. Instead they fiddled about with the previous tier system and moved us back into it, provoking a whole new set of political challenges from MPs and mayors unhappy at where the new lines have been drawn.

    The most striking thing about this government, throughout this entire crisis, is its inability to stick to one approach and consistent policy for longer than five minutes.
    It is becoming somewhat clear that the 2019 victory was the result of Labour's unpopularity as opposed to a stroke of strategic genius from the Tories.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,708
    edited December 2020
    The thing is that an awful lot of what was deemed to be accepted wisdom isn't proving to be the case.

    It was stated on numerous occasions that no legal challenges could be brought after the "Safe Harbour deadline". Well that wasn't the case, and the WI Supreme Court was actually in session today - only voting 4-3 to reject the latest Trump challenge. What would have happened if one more Justice had voted the other way?

    Now even the Electoral College has voted and yet it appears that legal challenges will be continuing right up to January 6th.

    So unpopular as it might be on here, maybe Betfair has a point. It's all well and good saying the Electoral College has voted but what does that actually mean if two sets of electors have sent different certificates to Congress.

    It's quite clear that all the procedures required to conclude the election really aren't fit for purpose.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,697

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587459811241985

    Yet again, the Government has failed to learn from their mistakes.

    The cases have never been low enough to consider exiting the lockdown. And yet they made this mistake twice!

    It looks like the lockdown just postponed the second wave in London and the South East, but didn't bring cases down enough to avoid a strong resurgence afterwards.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587454878736384

    We need to lockdown now. This is October all over again.

    It's weird - if they'd just extended lockdown to, say, now, then even though in actuality the cases would be rising again the lag would have meant it looked ok to have a Christmas hall pass.

    If they were that set on Christmas, why not tell everyone 'Lockdown is being extended 2 more weeks, so you can have Christmas'?
    Shopping.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    TimT said:

    TimT said:

    MikeL said:

    The Wisconsin Republican electors are meeting today, voting for Trump and sending their certificate in to Congress for counting on January 6th.

    Now we know Congress will reject that certificate - because the Democrats control the House and at least five Republican Senators have said they accept Biden as the winner.

    But if the Republicans controlled both Houses and all their Congressmen were united then they absolutely could vote to accept the Wisconsin certificate of votes for Trump.

    I haven't followed the debate re Betfair closely - but even now couldn't they say "Well two certificates have gone to Congress for Wisconsin - we don't yet know which certificate they will accept"

    I'm not sure whether Republican electors for PA, MI and GA are also sending their own certificates to Congress.

    Irrespective of this election, there is surely now a massive problem going forward in that if one Party controls both Houses they can ensure their candidate wins the Presidency (if Party united in doing so). So should Biden try to reform the Electoral Count Act?

    PA GOP have been reported as doing the same.
    And GA too: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/republican-electors-pennsylvania-georgia-vote-for-trump
    To be fair, there is precedent for this. In 1960 the result in Hawaii, the first time the newly-minted state participated in a Presidential election, was very close, initially going to Nixon, and was being recounted when the Electoral College met on December 19th of that year. Two sets of electors convened, one Republican and one Democratic. The Republican Governor of Hawaii certified the Republican results, but when the recount was complete it was shown that Kennedy had won the state's electors by just 115 votes. The courts ruled that the Governor should send a new certificate to that effect, and he finally did so on January 4th, just two days before the Electoral College vote count. Presented with two certificates, Nixon, as sitting VP and thus presiding officer of the count, awarded the votes to Kennedy and Johnson. There were no objections.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,459

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587459811241985

    Yet again, the Government has failed to learn from their mistakes.

    The cases have never been low enough to consider exiting the lockdown. And yet they made this mistake twice!

    You have to consider this alongside the economy though. If the only consideration was case numbers you would lockdown until the virus was gone. But we can’t. At some level, life must go on. Their is massive fatigue in the country. A lot of people are doing the right things, being incredibly cautious. Some are not. Some cannot cope with restrictions. Failure to keep the economy going will be devastating too. The situation is shit, and I’d hate to be in charge, but it’s easy to oversimplify and just say lockdown now.
  • https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1338599918106251264

    Probably hear next week about the U-turn
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    What, it’s now 538-0 to Biden? Way to go!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,459
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Celtic never relegated since 1890 is pretty impressive.

    Being relegated/promoted is quite good fun. I have seen 3 Leicester City relegation, and 3 promotions. Much more entertaining than mid table obscurity. Even now, I like to see 40 points on the board before relaxing, everything after that is a bonus 😀

    Arsenal won't be relegated, they are crap, but not that crap.

    There is definitely something to be said for frequent churn of your club between the divisions. Sometimes a brief visit to a lower league gives a reset, and you come back stronger. As a Swindon fan, we’ve had some lovely ‘on loan to league 1/league 2 (delete as applicable)’ seasons. However when it stretches from a one season sojourn into a three year slump in the basement, it’s not so much fun...
    I can understand that. Leicester was relegated to the third tier for a season, and the reset was just what we needed to get back to winning ways. I rather enjoyed the football too, seeing new teams live, and was pleasantly surprised at the quality of the football. One season was enough though!
    Were you at the Swindon game? We nearly mugged your lot good and proper... my Leicester mate who I gone with was planning on not driving me back home after...
    Not sure if I was. I don't think I made an away game that season. I may have been at the home game.
    Sorry - I meant the one in Leicester. Wasn’t that the season with the controversy about administration and being docked (or not) points, leading to the rule change?
    I was doing Swindon a disservice, thinking League two. It must have been the 2002-3 season in League 1. I don't think Sheffield United have forgiven us for displacing them from promotion while in administration.
    Worry not - my mates not forgiven 1993 yet...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587454878736384

    We need to lockdown now. This is October all over again.

    The problem we would have with a Christmas lockdown is wholesale non compliance.

    I hate to agree with those posters who are desperate for Welsh people to drop like flies to prove Drakeford an idiot and Johnson a genius, but Wales should have had a two week lockdown up until the 23rd. In Wales we will have a three week lockdown on the 28th followed by a tiered system.

    I think Johnson will plug away with his current system. It will keep the ERG happy and hopefully keep Covid under some sort of control until the vaccine kicks in.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,685
    edited December 2020
    TimT said:

    TimT said:

    MikeL said:

    The Wisconsin Republican electors are meeting today, voting for Trump and sending their certificate in to Congress for counting on January 6th.

    Now we know Congress will reject that certificate - because the Democrats control the House and at least five Republican Senators have said they accept Biden as the winner.

    But if the Republicans controlled both Houses and all their Congressmen were united then they absolutely could vote to accept the Wisconsin certificate of votes for Trump.

    I haven't followed the debate re Betfair closely - but even now couldn't they say "Well two certificates have gone to Congress for Wisconsin - we don't yet know which certificate they will accept"

    I'm not sure whether Republican electors for PA, MI and GA are also sending their own certificates to Congress.

    Irrespective of this election, there is surely now a massive problem going forward in that if one Party controls both Houses they can ensure their candidate wins the Presidency (if Party united in doing so). So should Biden try to reform the Electoral Count Act?

    PA GOP have been reported as doing the same.
    And GA too: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/republican-electors-pennsylvania-georgia-vote-for-trump
    Since each state's Certificate of Ascertainment (which is sent to the Archivist of the United States) lists that state's chosen Electors, the said Archivist will surely ignore any fake Certificates of Vote coming from people who are not the chosen electors?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_ascertainment
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831
    TimT said:

    TimT said:

    MikeL said:

    The Wisconsin Republican electors are meeting today, voting for Trump and sending their certificate in to Congress for counting on January 6th.

    Now we know Congress will reject that certificate - because the Democrats control the House and at least five Republican Senators have said they accept Biden as the winner.

    But if the Republicans controlled both Houses and all their Congressmen were united then they absolutely could vote to accept the Wisconsin certificate of votes for Trump.

    I haven't followed the debate re Betfair closely - but even now couldn't they say "Well two certificates have gone to Congress for Wisconsin - we don't yet know which certificate they will accept"

    I'm not sure whether Republican electors for PA, MI and GA are also sending their own certificates to Congress.

    Irrespective of this election, there is surely now a massive problem going forward in that if one Party controls both Houses they can ensure their candidate wins the Presidency (if Party united in doing so). So should Biden try to reform the Electoral Count Act?

    PA GOP have been reported as doing the same.
    And GA too: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/republican-electors-pennsylvania-georgia-vote-for-trump
    If they don't have any sort of official stamp from their states, why wouldn't they go straight in the bin without even being put before the congressional counting session?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited December 2020
    Based on Scotland's relatively stable tier system.
    • You need Tier 3 if you have medium (50-200 cases/100 000/week) and want to keep those rates steady
    Tier 4/lockdown if you have >200 cases cases/100 000/week and need to get them down quickly.

    If you go to Tier 2, cases will rise and you will need to go back to Tier 3 a couple of weeks later (or Tier 4 if you leave it too long)

    Tier 3 is the default at current compliance rates.
  • https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1338599918106251264

    Probably hear next week about the U-turn

    Christmas is a red herring imo. Christmas bubbles expand households but not half as much as allowing students back home when they count as part of mum and dad's household.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    I'm still having to pinch myself to check this is real. Many members of the Republican party are actively selecting a different set of EVC electors to the ones that people actually voted for. They have gone so far down the rabbit hole that they actively engaging in sedition. Trying to engineer a result that would end America as a democratic republic.


    We had no idea American democracy was so fragile.

    Warning to us all everywhere.

    What it has demonstrated most of all is how important an independent judiciary is in protecting democracy.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587454878736384

    We need to lockdown now. This is October all over again.

    Leicester admissions are up again, though not as bad as a month ago, but not yet showing the effect of opening shops. We are Tier 3 so no pubs or restaurants.

    The problem is that there were only 3 weekends free for Christmas shopping, so the shopping is inevitably concentrated, and therefore crowded.
    Hope all well Foxy.
    Yeah. Busy but OK. Staff being vaccinated has been a morale boost, it gives confidence and a second wind.

    Mrs Foxy has good days and bad days. Mostly she feels fully over it, then gets days where she is shattered just climbing stairs. Its a weird bug.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,685
    Gaussian said:

    TimT said:

    TimT said:

    MikeL said:

    The Wisconsin Republican electors are meeting today, voting for Trump and sending their certificate in to Congress for counting on January 6th.

    Now we know Congress will reject that certificate - because the Democrats control the House and at least five Republican Senators have said they accept Biden as the winner.

    But if the Republicans controlled both Houses and all their Congressmen were united then they absolutely could vote to accept the Wisconsin certificate of votes for Trump.

    I haven't followed the debate re Betfair closely - but even now couldn't they say "Well two certificates have gone to Congress for Wisconsin - we don't yet know which certificate they will accept"

    I'm not sure whether Republican electors for PA, MI and GA are also sending their own certificates to Congress.

    Irrespective of this election, there is surely now a massive problem going forward in that if one Party controls both Houses they can ensure their candidate wins the Presidency (if Party united in doing so). So should Biden try to reform the Electoral Count Act?

    PA GOP have been reported as doing the same.
    And GA too: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/republican-electors-pennsylvania-georgia-vote-for-trump
    If they don't have any sort of official stamp from their states, why wouldn't they go straight in the bin without even being put before the congressional counting session?
    Exactly. The Archivist already knows who the chosen electors are from each state.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1338599918106251264

    Probably hear next week about the U-turn

    He would go up in my estimation of he did U-turn. I am fairly confident I will not be reassessing my opinion of Johnson.
  • ydoethur said:

    Despite 2020 being a big pile of poo.... the premier league table is a joy to behold.

    For now.

    Thank you.

    I'm trying to bet on the double.

    Spurs win the PL and Arsenal get relegated.
    Am I right in thinking Arsenal are the only club never to have been relegated from the current Premier League?
    No, off the top off my head, Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United, Spurs, Chelsea, and Arsenal have never been relegated from the Premier League.
    While the Baggies are trying to equal Norwich's record of 5 relegations.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,685
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1338587454878736384

    We need to lockdown now. This is October all over again.

    Leicester admissions are up again, though not as bad as a month ago, but not yet showing the effect of opening shops. We are Tier 3 so no pubs or restaurants.

    The problem is that there were only 3 weekends free for Christmas shopping, so the shopping is inevitably concentrated, and therefore crowded.
    Hope all well Foxy.
    Yeah. Busy but OK. Staff being vaccinated has been a morale boost, it gives confidence and a second wind.

    Mrs Foxy has good days and bad days. Mostly she feels fully over it, then gets days where she is shattered just climbing stairs. Its a weird bug.
    Best wishes for Mrs Foxy's continued recovery.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831
    edited December 2020
    FF43 said:

    Based on Scotland's relatively stable tier system.


    • You need Tier 3 if you have medium (50-200 cases/100 000/week) and want to keep those rates steady
    Tier 4/lockdown if you have >200 cases cases/100 000/week and need to get them down quickly.

    If you go to Tier 2, cases will rise and you will need to go back to Tier 3 a couple of weeks later (or Tier 4 if you leave it too long)

    Tier 3 is the default at current compliance rates.
    Yep, except Edinburgh is currently trying to prove that even level 3 might not be sufficient. 65/week/100,000 at start of December, now over 100 and rising. Hopefully things will calm down after the Christmas shopping.
This discussion has been closed.