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The UK set to be the first where people are vaccinated – politicalbetting.com

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  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    OnboardG1 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    The North East Assembly was meant to be the first step in that, but a certain eggheaded weirdo spent a lot of time organising a campaign to convince people that their interests were best served by people 300 miles away who never liked them. Which has a certain irony about it.
    AKA Dom Cummings won. Again.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Surprising how unpopular the Christmas Truce is in that polling.

    Maybe, for all people are worried about the economic cost, they've got a better grip on the situation than the Conservative right, or the popular press?
    Everybody was secretly hoping for an excuse to abandon Christmas, just this once.

    Honestly, this idea that Christmas is popular is some bizarre delusion. Young people like the build-up to Xmas (the parties and shindigs - not happening). Old people like the chocolates. I suppose 7 year olds adore the presents but they can still happen.

    A lot of people will happily sacrifice a lovely family Xmas for proper freedom in mid-January
    You're probably right (and I say that having two middle sized children). Covid Christmas would have been odd, quiet but... somehow right for 2020.
    And we all know that we will pay for Christmas in January and February's Lockdown 3.

    Highlights a curious thing about this government. They have all the hallmarks of populists, but a remarkably tin ear for what the populi want a lot of the time.
    Yes, they really don't get it. Too many London poshos who pretend to have the common touch. Same problem that afflicted Cameron.

    Labour is just as bad, but in a different, "progressive" way.

    They could all learn from the SNP (in this one instance). Sturgeon has an enviable ability to sound normal and sane and Everywoman, hence her popularity.
    Though it's worse now than under Cameron.
    Dave was posh, didn't hide it, and just had an awkward sense of Lord Grantham at the parish Harvest Supper.
    Whereas a lot of the key players in this government have a strong sense of trying to be something they're not.
    Boris, obviously. Gove, convolutedly (and I recognise that he has a story that is hard for him, and makes that hard to shake off). JRM, absurdly. Even young Rishi.
    It's odd, and it can't be good for them.
    Yep. The fact the "popular", "relatable" Chancellor happens to be married to a woman richer than the Queen of England says quite something.

    They cannot be anything but detached.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,171
    O/T

    Icelandic drama The Valhalla Murders on BBC4 atm.
  • OnboardG1 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    The North East Assembly was meant to be the first step in that, but a certain eggheaded weirdo spent a lot of time organising a campaign to convince people that their interests were best served by people 300 miles away who never liked them. Which has a certain irony about it.
    On those lines, perhaps he should have started devolution by offering it to the Western Isles first and then the rest of Scotland in stages.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Scott_xP said:
    FFS...u-turn already....and of course the way to keep.covid in check, consistent long term restrictions...but no we can't stick to that.
    It’s not unreasonable to require a revote
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589

    OnboardG1 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    The North East Assembly was meant to be the first step in that, but a certain eggheaded weirdo spent a lot of time organising a campaign to convince people that their interests were best served by people 300 miles away who never liked them. Which has a certain irony about it.
    On those lines, perhaps he should have started devolution by offering it to the Western Isles first and then the rest of Scotland in stages.
    Oh come on, that’s a silly argument. Scotland and the North East have similar populations. If you can show that two large and diverse regions are keen on Devolution you can go into the 2005 election saying “vote for us and we’ll extend this to everyone” which leads to the outcome I think always made sense of a federal UK. Scotland, Wales, NI, London and regions that look like the heptarchy. And if the prospect of the Regional Senator for Mercia standing on the floor of the Lords doesn’t get your pulse racing, you’re probably not as weird as me.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    OnboardG1 said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    The North East Assembly was meant to be the first step in that, but a certain eggheaded weirdo spent a lot of time organising a campaign to convince people that their interests were best served by people 300 miles away who never liked them. Which has a certain irony about it.
    On those lines, perhaps he should have started devolution by offering it to the Western Isles first and then the rest of Scotland in stages.
    Oh come on, that’s a silly argument. Scotland and the North East have similar populations. If you can show that two large and diverse regions are keen on Devolution you can go into the 2005 election saying “vote for us and we’ll extend this to everyone” which leads to the outcome I think always made sense of a federal UK. Scotland, Wales, NI, London and regions that look like the heptarchy. And if the prospect of the Regional Senator for Mercia standing on the floor of the Lords doesn’t get your pulse racing, you’re probably not as weird as me.
    Scotland is c double the NE. But otherwise yes.
  • A style reminiscent of a certain excitable scrivener that used to haunt these purlieus.

    'Reaching a crescendo of incoherence he screams across the loch:

    “I love Britain more than anywhere else in the world. With all my heart I declare that those of us born here, or who have made a home here by choice, are the luckiest, most blessed of all people. I am British. I will always be British.”'

    https://tinyurl.com/y6gnsnae
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Carnyx said:



    The legislative grand committee for England already exists de facto with EVEL, does it not?

    EVEL’s another example of damaging tinkering round the edges. It’s not a committee or an assembly it’s a complex set of procedures, in the same chamber, same body, that rightly pissed off everyone else. Even the name is inflammatory.

    It should be something like Mondays & Tuesdays the U.K. Commons meets for U.K. business. Wednesdays & Thursdays the English MPs go somewhere physically different (I think that symbolism is important - Westminster Hall maybe, even put them on a train to York) to discuss the exactly the same issues with exactly the same powers as Cardiff, Holyrood and Stormont. Fridays and weekends back to your constituencies unless something important comes up.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284
    edited November 2020
    OnboardG1 said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    The North East Assembly was meant to be the first step in that, but a certain eggheaded weirdo spent a lot of time organising a campaign to convince people that their interests were best served by people 300 miles away who never liked them. Which has a certain irony about it.
    On those lines, perhaps he should have started devolution by offering it to the Western Isles first and then the rest of Scotland in stages.
    Oh come on, that’s a silly argument. Scotland and the North East have similar populations. If you can show that two large and diverse regions are keen on Devolution you can go into the 2005 election saying “vote for us and we’ll extend this to everyone” which leads to the outcome I think always made sense of a federal UK. Scotland, Wales, NI, London and regions that look like the heptarchy. And if the prospect of the Regional Senator for Mercia standing on the floor of the Lords doesn’t get your pulse racing, you’re probably not as weird as me.
    If you want to break up England then I see no reason why Scotland should not be divided up as well. Highlands, Lowlands, and Central Belt perhaps?
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    A style reminiscent of a certain excitable scrivener that used to haunt these purlieus.

    'Reaching a crescendo of incoherence he screams across the loch:

    “I love Britain more than anywhere else in the world. With all my heart I declare that those of us born here, or who have made a home here by choice, are the luckiest, most blessed of all people. I am British. I will always be British.”'

    https://tinyurl.com/y6gnsnae

    bella caledonia?

    Quasi-Fascist emo-nationalism.

    lol
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    Blair's main (only) focus was the fortunes of the Labour Party -- so it is a pleasure to see the rogue hoisted by his own petard.

    He took a constitutional settlement that had lasted for centuries (admittedly, it was showing a lot of strain).

    And Blair replaced it with a constitutional settlement that will die long before he will. It will be lucky to last more than a quarter of a century.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Trump’s marks are beginning to wise up to his “election defense” scam and want their money back. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/28/trump-donor-election-fraud-sues-money-back
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    LadyG said:

    A style reminiscent of a certain excitable scrivener that used to haunt these purlieus.

    'Reaching a crescendo of incoherence he screams across the loch:

    “I love Britain more than anywhere else in the world. With all my heart I declare that those of us born here, or who have made a home here by choice, are the luckiest, most blessed of all people. I am British. I will always be British.”'

    https://tinyurl.com/y6gnsnae

    bella caledonia?

    Quasi-Fascist emo-nationalism.

    lol
    Seems ok and better than ok to me. A bit florid perhaps. It's his haircut isn't it?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661
    LadyG said:

    A style reminiscent of a certain excitable scrivener that used to haunt these purlieus.

    'Reaching a crescendo of incoherence he screams across the loch:

    “I love Britain more than anywhere else in the world. With all my heart I declare that those of us born here, or who have made a home here by choice, are the luckiest, most blessed of all people. I am British. I will always be British.”'

    https://tinyurl.com/y6gnsnae

    bella caledonia?

    Quasi-Fascist emo-nationalism.

    lol
    "Bella Caledonia": Scotch wars

  • Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.
    Pree-cisely.
    The idea that Blair was a committed devolutionist let alone someone who wanted to rub (specifically) English noses in it is for the birds. Also Scottish and Wesh devolution was in the Labour manifesto that English voters backed in a landslide. Still, it feeds into the rising tenor of English victimhood.
  • LadyG said:

    A style reminiscent of a certain excitable scrivener that used to haunt these purlieus.

    'Reaching a crescendo of incoherence he screams across the loch:

    “I love Britain more than anywhere else in the world. With all my heart I declare that those of us born here, or who have made a home here by choice, are the luckiest, most blessed of all people. I am British. I will always be British.”'

    https://tinyurl.com/y6gnsnae

    bella caledonia?

    Quasi-Fascist emo-nationalism.

    lol
    Sounds like your cup of tea.
  • Any way, it’s getting too late for me: play nicely.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    edited November 2020

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.
    After 18 years of hostile Tory rule, there was an inevitable desire for Scottish devolution. It was not forced on an unwilling Scotland by Blair.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    Foxy said:


    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.
    After 18 years of hostile Tory rule, there was an inevitable desire for Scottish devolution. It was not forced on an unwilling Scotland by Blair.
    Nor indeed an unwilling England. Was in the manifesto that won a 179 majority.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928
    Andy_JS said:

    What percentage of the population need to be vaccinated to stop the spread of the virus?

    That's a really interesting question, and it depends on lots of things:

    1. Does this particular vaccine prevent you from spreading the virus, or does it merely make you asymptomatic? The early evidence from Pfizer is reasonably positive: those people who tested positive for CV19 exhibited much lower level of viral shedding than those in the control group.

    2. Which people are you vaccinating? A lonely spinster might come into contact with a dozen people in a month, while a gym going doctor might see hundreds. If you concentrated the vaccine campaign on the people most likely to *spread* the virus, you may well cut transmission faster than if you concentrate on those most likely to die.

    My guess (and it's just a guess) is that front line workers (NHS, care homes) and the most at risk will be vaccinated first. And that once we get to 20 million people vaccinated, then CV19 will begin to die out by itself: sure, there'll be outbreaks in student halls of residence, but the most likely to spread it, and the most likely to die from it, will both be protected.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    RobD said:

    They literally posted a document justifying why each region had a specific level. What more do they want?
    Their constituency exempted?
    Even though polling suggests they won't be particularly thanked.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831
    RobD said:

    They literally posted a document justifying why each region had a specific level. What more do they want?
    They want the whole problem to magically go away.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    Gaussian said:

    RobD said:

    They literally posted a document justifying why each region had a specific level. What more do they want?
    They want the whole problem to magically go away.
    Something I can get on board with.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    Foxy said:


    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.
    After 18 years of hostile Tory rule, there was an inevitable desire for Scottish devolution. It was not forced on an unwilling Scotland by Blair.
    "hostile Tory rule"

    I can't see how this might make sense. Conservatives against conservatism?

    18 years of Delusional frothing on your part seems more the mark.

  • dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:


    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.
    After 18 years of hostile Tory rule, there was an inevitable desire for Scottish devolution. It was not forced on an unwilling Scotland by Blair.
    Nor indeed an unwilling England. Was in the manifesto that won a 179 majority.
    Curiously, the Tories were keen to focus on the constitution during the 1997 campaign as they saw it as one of Labour's few vulnerabilities.
  • RobD said:

    They literally posted a document justifying why each region had a specific level. What more do they want?
    Welcome to the party that's tired of experts.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:


    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.
    After 18 years of hostile Tory rule, there was an inevitable desire for Scottish devolution. It was not forced on an unwilling Scotland by Blair.
    Nor indeed an unwilling England. Was in the manifesto that won a 179 majority.
    Curiously, the Tories were keen to focus on the constitution during the 1997 campaign as they saw it as one of Labour's few vulnerabilities.
    Also Europe. The Tories did a party political broadcast saying that a vote for Blair was a vote for a federal Europe.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    Just think. All those moderate Tory MPs that Bozo kicked out last year would have been supporting him over the Covid Tiers.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828

    RobD said:

    They literally posted a document justifying why each region had a specific level. What more do they want?
    Welcome to the party that's tired of experts.
    And one that's becoming distrustful of its leadership. There's no strategy at the top.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    edited November 2020

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:


    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.
    After 18 years of hostile Tory rule, there was an inevitable desire for Scottish devolution. It was not forced on an unwilling Scotland by Blair.
    Nor indeed an unwilling England. Was in the manifesto that won a 179 majority.
    Curiously, the Tories were keen to focus on the constitution during the 1997 campaign as they saw it as one of Labour's few vulnerabilities.
    Also Europe. The Tories did a party political broadcast saying that a vote for Blair was a vote for a federal Europe.
    They also claimed Blair was a demon eyed Socialist.
    Who had, somewhat mysteriously, also stolen Tory policies...
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    They literally posted a document justifying why each region had a specific level. What more do they want?
    Welcome to the party that's tired of experts.
    And one that's becoming distrustful of its leadership. There's no strategy at the top.
    Some of us did warn you all.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    They literally posted a document justifying why each region had a specific level. What more do they want?
    Welcome to the party that's tired of experts.
    And one that's becoming distrustful of its leadership. There's no strategy at the top.
    Becoming? Anti-Europe factions have been stirring up distrust of the Tory leadership since Major's day.
    Too late to change that now.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Anyone watching the fight?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231

    OnboardG1 said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    The North East Assembly was meant to be the first step in that, but a certain eggheaded weirdo spent a lot of time organising a campaign to convince people that their interests were best served by people 300 miles away who never liked them. Which has a certain irony about it.
    On those lines, perhaps he should have started devolution by offering it to the Western Isles first and then the rest of Scotland in stages.
    Oh come on, that’s a silly argument. Scotland and the North East have similar populations. If you can show that two large and diverse regions are keen on Devolution you can go into the 2005 election saying “vote for us and we’ll extend this to everyone” which leads to the outcome I think always made sense of a federal UK. Scotland, Wales, NI, London and regions that look like the heptarchy. And if the prospect of the Regional Senator for Mercia standing on the floor of the Lords doesn’t get your pulse racing, you’re probably not as weird as me.
    If you want to break up England then I see no reason why Scotland should not be divided up as well. Highlands, Lowlands, and Central Belt perhaps?
    Quite.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,171
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    What percentage of the population need to be vaccinated to stop the spread of the virus?

    That's a really interesting question, and it depends on lots of things:

    1. Does this particular vaccine prevent you from spreading the virus, or does it merely make you asymptomatic? The early evidence from Pfizer is reasonably positive: those people who tested positive for CV19 exhibited much lower level of viral shedding than those in the control group.

    2. Which people are you vaccinating? A lonely spinster might come into contact with a dozen people in a month, while a gym going doctor might see hundreds. If you concentrated the vaccine campaign on the people most likely to *spread* the virus, you may well cut transmission faster than if you concentrate on those most likely to die.

    My guess (and it's just a guess) is that front line workers (NHS, care homes) and the most at risk will be vaccinated first. And that once we get to 20 million people vaccinated, then CV19 will begin to die out by itself: sure, there'll be outbreaks in student halls of residence, but the most likely to spread it, and the most likely to die from it, will both be protected.

    Thanks for the reply.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Interesting article on why the US economy thus far has greatly outperformed other western countries hard hit by coronavirus.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/america-failed-covid-economys-ok-why/617223/
    ... Washington, improbably, has truly distinguished itself with fiscal policy, at least earlier in the year. The U.S. has fewer, stingier, more complicated, and more conditional safety nets available to people than many other advanced economies—less generous “automatic stabilizers,” in economic parlance. But when COVID-19 hit, congressional Democrats negotiated a series of enormous, highly effective temporary stabilizers with Republicans who were ready to go big, among them Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin. In the $2.2 trillion CARES Act, Congress provided forgivable loans to small businesses; sent $1,200 checks to most Americans; added gig workers to the unemployment-insurance system; and put a $600 weekly top-up on unemployment checks.

    “We’d never seen such a rapid and massive amount of stimulus being doled out by Congress, ever,” Gregory Daco, an economist at the international forecasting firm Oxford Economics, told me. “Contrast it with what happened in the global financial crisis” that precipitated the Great Recession in 2007. “It took three times longer to get a stimulus package half the size.” Indeed, the U.S. provided fiscal support equivalent to roughly 12 percent of its GDP, data from Moody’s Analytics show, one-third more than Germany and twice as much as the U.K. Other than Australia, no large, wealthy country did more to support its economy...
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,060
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:


    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.
    After 18 years of hostile Tory rule, there was an inevitable desire for Scottish devolution. It was not forced on an unwilling Scotland by Blair.
    Nor indeed an unwilling England. Was in the manifesto that won a 179 majority.
    Curiously, the Tories were keen to focus on the constitution during the 1997 campaign as they saw it as one of Labour's few vulnerabilities.
    Also Europe. The Tories did a party political broadcast saying that a vote for Blair was a vote for a federal Europe.
    They also claimed Blair was a demon eyed Socialist.
    Who had, somewhat mysteriously, also stolen Tory policies...
    True but not in 1997. Major had a little bit of class.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    eristdoof said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:


    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.
    After 18 years of hostile Tory rule, there was an inevitable desire for Scottish devolution. It was not forced on an unwilling Scotland by Blair.
    Nor indeed an unwilling England. Was in the manifesto that won a 179 majority.
    Curiously, the Tories were keen to focus on the constitution during the 1997 campaign as they saw it as one of Labour's few vulnerabilities.
    Also Europe. The Tories did a party political broadcast saying that a vote for Blair was a vote for a federal Europe.
    They also claimed Blair was a demon eyed Socialist.
    Who had, somewhat mysteriously, also stolen Tory policies...
    True but not in 1997. Major had a little bit of class.
    No, that poster was from 1997.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Labour,_New_Danger
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Boris Johnson is going to run out of tiresome and emotive wartime metaphors.

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1332819647884824577


  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Omnium said:

    Foxy said:


    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.
    After 18 years of hostile Tory rule, there was an inevitable desire for Scottish devolution. It was not forced on an unwilling Scotland by Blair.
    "hostile Tory rule"

    I can't see how this might make sense. Conservatives against conservatism?

    18 years of Delusional frothing on your part seems more the mark.

    "Hostile Tory rule" I think a fair description of how the majority of Scots felt in the Eighties and nineties, hence the mounting Tory losses at each GE in Scotland, until 1997.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.
    Tam Dalyell was right all along though.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    edited November 2020
    Thanks @DavidHerdson for a very neat and compelling overview of the current indy debate in the last header.

    It was a clever call that emphasising the transactional benefits of Union is of limited value due to the fact that these can change - but a more fundamental reason for me is that it reinforces a sense of otherness (a bogus one imo) between Scotland and the UK. 'The UK gives us this' 'The UK takes that'. For me, the argument shouldn't be about 'giving', but about the entitlements that we all have, as part of a Union. Scotland isn't getting 'handouts', it's getting its entitlement - and there will no doubt be phases, when oil is riding high again, when Scotland is a net contributor. And that's ok too. Nobody is getting anything they shouldn't. That's what a union is.
  • Consider a 20p coin.

    A small unsubstantial thing of little value.

    But ASDA will currently swap one for a kilo of flour or for 500g of pasta.

    Branded stuff as well and with no problem on the BBE date.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    edited November 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    A Donald Trump quality, conspiracy theory!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    Just think. All those moderate Tory MPs that Bozo kicked out last year would have been supporting him over the Covid Tiers.

    What goes around, comes around.

    It seems that almost all of Johnson's wizard, schoolboy wheezes bite him back, Dick Dastardly style.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589

    Thanks @DavidHerdson for a very neat and compelling overview of the current indy debate in the last header.

    It was a clever call that emphasising the transactional benefits of Union is of limited value due to the fact that these can change - but a more fundamental reason for me is that it reinforces a sense of otherness (a bogus one imo) between Scotland and the UK. 'The UK gives us this' 'The UK takes that'. For me, the argument shouldn't be about 'giving', but about the entitlements that we all have, as part of a Union. Scotland isn't getting 'handouts', it's getting its entitlement - and there will no doubt be phases, when oil is riding high again, when Scotland is a net contributor. And that's ok too. Nobody is getting anything they shouldn't. That's what a union is.

    That's a genuinely excellent point. Rather than bang on about Scotland being subsidised, emphasise that Scotland gave more than its share during the 80s when the oil was flowing and it's now getting more than its share when it needs it. If the union was defended more in those terms I'd be more inclined to support it. Instead we have shire Tories complaining about the Barnett consequentials and the demanding devolution be reversed. It's entirely the wrong way to approach the situation.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    Dismissed with Prejudice PA
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Consider a 20p coin.

    A small unsubstantial thing of little value.

    But ASDA will currently swap one for a kilo of flour or for 500g of pasta.

    Branded stuff as well and with no problem on the BBE date.

    Yes, amazing how cheap food is while still in the single market.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    I’m increasingly of the view that it’s probably time for Scotland to go her own way now. English people should wish her well as a friend, neighbour and partner.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    Foxy said:

    Consider a 20p coin.

    A small unsubstantial thing of little value.

    But ASDA will currently swap one for a kilo of flour or for 500g of pasta.

    Branded stuff as well and with no problem on the BBE date.

    Yes, amazing how cheap food is while still in the single market.
    Unless prices go up by an order of magnitude, they are still going to be cheap afterwards.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    Trumpton is cutting an increasingly pathetic figure. Who is advising him? Time for the men in white/grey coats/suits.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,470
    edited November 2020

    Just think. All those moderate Tory MPs that Bozo kicked out last year would have been supporting him over the Covid Tiers.

    Do we have any names ?

    I'm sure Boris would like the image ** of him ruthlessly 'kicking out' people.

    But in reality who did he actually 'kick out' ?

    ** Likewise I'm sure Boris likes the imagery of him being some sort of reborn Thatcher.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    justin124 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.
    Tam Dalyell was right all along though.
    Sure, but unless Scotland becomes independent we will have this divisive dynamic for ever more. Let her go.
  • Foxy said:

    Consider a 20p coin.

    A small unsubstantial thing of little value.

    But ASDA will currently swap one for a kilo of flour or for 500g of pasta.

    Branded stuff as well and with no problem on the BBE date.

    Yes, amazing how cheap food is while still in the single market.
    Yet we're continually told otherwise.
  • Consider a 20p coin.

    A small unsubstantial thing of little value.

    But ASDA will currently swap one for a kilo of flour or for 500g of pasta.

    Branded stuff as well and with no problem on the BBE date.

    I assume that (a) they have overnbought based on the last panic buy period and (b) need to clear it to make room for Christmas.

    Last year their overbought bags of veg were literally free. So 20p is a bit of a rip off
  • RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Consider a 20p coin.

    A small unsubstantial thing of little value.

    But ASDA will currently swap one for a kilo of flour or for 500g of pasta.

    Branded stuff as well and with no problem on the BBE date.

    Yes, amazing how cheap food is while still in the single market.
    Unless prices go up by an order of magnitude, they are still going to be cheap afterwards.
    Supply and demand. We're about to reduce demand in a period where the pox creates all kinds of off demand spikes. Prices WILL go up. Increased ingredient costs plus tariffs plus added logistics costs = a chunky price rise.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.
    Tam Dalyell was right all along though.
    Sure, but unless Scotland becomes independent we will have this divisive dynamic for ever more. Let her go.
    Not really . Even today in the context of Johnson and Covid the polling figures are pretty close. His departure and the benefits from an anti-Covid vaccine could shift the figures quite a bit. Starmer also needs to actively campaign in Scotland. A Labour message of ' A vote for the SNP and Independence would be a betrayal of John Smith, Donald Dewar and Robin Cook' might also reap dividends.
  • Consider a 20p coin.

    A small unsubstantial thing of little value.

    But ASDA will currently swap one for a kilo of flour or for 500g of pasta.

    Branded stuff as well and with no problem on the BBE date.

    I assume that (a) they have overnbought based on the last panic buy period and (b) need to clear it to make room for Christmas.

    Last year their overbought bags of veg were literally free. So 20p is a bit of a rip off
    It seems to be Italian brands they have a lot of.

    Flour and pasta have been getting cheaper and cheaper since the summer.

    ASDA are even flogging Italian gin at half price.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Consider a 20p coin.

    A small unsubstantial thing of little value.

    But ASDA will currently swap one for a kilo of flour or for 500g of pasta.

    Branded stuff as well and with no problem on the BBE date.

    Yes, amazing how cheap food is while still in the single market.
    Unless prices go up by an order of magnitude, they are still going to be cheap afterwards.
    Supply and demand. We're about to reduce demand in a period where the pox creates all kinds of off demand spikes. Prices WILL go up. Increased ingredient costs plus tariffs plus added logistics costs = a chunky price rise.
    Perhaps, but it won't go up by a factor of ten.
  • justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.
    Tam Dalyell was right all along though.
    Sure, but unless Scotland becomes independent we will have this divisive dynamic for ever more. Let her go.
    Not really . Even today in the context of Johnson and Covid the polling figures are pretty close. His departure and the benefits from an anti-Covid vaccine could shift the figures quite a bit. Starmer also needs to actively campaign in Scotland. A Labour message of ' A vote for the SNP and Independence would be a betrayal of John Smith, Donald Dewar and Robin Cook' might also reap dividends.
    From counting dead voters in '79 to vote for the dead in '21: evolution Lab style.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Icelandic drama The Valhalla Murders on BBC4 atm.

    Sounds more like a problem for Odin than the civil authorities.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.

    Andy_JS said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    The one part of the country which doesn’t elect its own government.
    Oh rubbish - of course we do. You do too. The Westminster parliament is just the way it is to you and to me. It's good.

    I know we elected the government, it’s just that the we is the whole country, not just England.
    We, the whole country, is what I care about. We, the whole country is what you care about, oddly I think that we, the whole country is what Nicola Sturgeon cares about.

    Tell me how that whole country should be!
    The whole thing is a mess: devolution should have been symmetrical right from the start, with English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish parliaments all given the same powers. Then have Westminster looking after some taxation, defence, trade and foreign policy only. Let the nations look after everything else.
    I agree completely. It's almost as if Blair wanted to annoy the English as much as possible with the way it was done in 1997.
    I don't think Blair gave it any serious thought. Devolution was just a policy whose time had come and the Scottish Labour establishment were wedded to it.
    Tam Dalyell was right all along though.
    Sure, but unless Scotland becomes independent we will have this divisive dynamic for ever more. Let her go.
    Not really . Even today in the context of Johnson and Covid the polling figures are pretty close. His departure and the benefits from an anti-Covid vaccine could shift the figures quite a bit. Starmer also needs to actively campaign in Scotland. A Labour message of ' A vote for the SNP and Independence would be a betrayal of John Smith, Donald Dewar and Robin Cook' might also reap dividends.
    From counting dead voters in '79 to vote for the dead in '21: evolution Lab style.
    The dead don't disappoint us. Or at least they didn't before the last few years.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    It was reported last time around how useful it was for Putin to have someone so prominent claim american elections are rigged, as a deflection from anything he does and to show people that nowhere is truly free. Now millions of americans believe the same thing Trump has probably been more successful for Putin than he could ever have dreamed.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,895
    TOPPING said:

    Anyone watching the fight?

    Good work from Joyce, Dubois obviously a problem with his eye. Appalling fitness for a 23 year old boxer though, looked gassed very early.
    Joyce vs Usyk next hopefully
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    Why didn't he provide the proof then?

    Is sadly a question his lickspittles in Congress won't ask.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    edited November 2020
    RobD said:

    They literally posted a document justifying why each region had a specific level. What more do they want?
    They don't want anything, that type. Like any measure where people are simply opposed - for good or bad reasons - they for some reason have to pretend to not have a closed mind by asking for more info (or consultation, depending on the issue), when it is perfectly clear evidence inscribed on stone tablets from Mount Sinai would not persuade.

    If people are ideologically against or feel the evidence does not support certain things, they can just say so without the pretence they will change their minds.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    Thanks @DavidHerdson for a very neat and compelling overview of the current indy debate in the last header.

    It was a clever call that emphasising the transactional benefits of Union is of limited value due to the fact that these can change - but a more fundamental reason for me is that it reinforces a sense of otherness (a bogus one imo) between Scotland and the UK. 'The UK gives us this' 'The UK takes that'. For me, the argument shouldn't be about 'giving', but about the entitlements that we all have, as part of a Union. Scotland isn't getting 'handouts', it's getting its entitlement - and there will no doubt be phases, when oil is riding high again, when Scotland is a net contributor. And that's ok too. Nobody is getting anything they shouldn't. That's what a union is.

    Quite so. As ever an emotional case like that would be more effective. However, I fear the spirit of the times is such that there are not enough messengers to deliver that message or fertile ground to hear it. But hopefully I am wrong.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,503
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    What percentage of the population need to be vaccinated to stop the spread of the virus?

    That's a really interesting question, and it depends on lots of things:

    1. Does this particular vaccine prevent you from spreading the virus, or does it merely make you asymptomatic? The early evidence from Pfizer is reasonably positive: those people who tested positive for CV19 exhibited much lower level of viral shedding than those in the control group.

    2. Which people are you vaccinating? A lonely spinster might come into contact with a dozen people in a month, while a gym going doctor might see hundreds. If you concentrated the vaccine campaign on the people most likely to *spread* the virus, you may well cut transmission faster than if you concentrate on those most likely to die.

    My guess (and it's just a guess) is that front line workers (NHS, care homes) and the most at risk will be vaccinated first. And that once we get to 20 million people vaccinated, then CV19 will begin to die out by itself: sure, there'll be outbreaks in student halls of residence, but the most likely to spread it, and the most likely to die from it, will both be protected.

    Yes, that sounds right, and the Government priority is frontline staff first, which is absolutely the correct policy. My only concern is that the Government will push the Oxford vaccine hard because it's bought a lot, it's British, it's cheap and it's easy to deliver - but it's not clear that it works very well. In normal circs we'd wait for the second trial that they're now doing to see if the low dose variant can be verified, but that will take months and it's obviously urgent. But people will be reluctant to be injected, then told it's not very effective and they have to be injected again with something else.

    If we assume the 62% overall figure is correct, and you're offered it, do you take it, or hold out until it's verified or the Pfizer one is available? Probably take it, as 62% is a lot better than nothing, but if people then start relaxing and catching the infection anyway, there will be an anti-vaccine backlash. Genuinely difficult regardless of your politics or attitude to lockdown.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    edited November 2020

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    What percentage of the population need to be vaccinated to stop the spread of the virus?

    That's a really interesting question, and it depends on lots of things:

    1. Does this particular vaccine prevent you from spreading the virus, or does it merely make you asymptomatic? The early evidence from Pfizer is reasonably positive: those people who tested positive for CV19 exhibited much lower level of viral shedding than those in the control group.

    2. Which people are you vaccinating? A lonely spinster might come into contact with a dozen people in a month, while a gym going doctor might see hundreds. If you concentrated the vaccine campaign on the people most likely to *spread* the virus, you may well cut transmission faster than if you concentrate on those most likely to die.

    My guess (and it's just a guess) is that front line workers (NHS, care homes) and the most at risk will be vaccinated first. And that once we get to 20 million people vaccinated, then CV19 will begin to die out by itself: sure, there'll be outbreaks in student halls of residence, but the most likely to spread it, and the most likely to die from it, will both be protected.

    Yes, that sounds right, and the Government priority is frontline staff first, which is absolutely the correct policy. My only concern is that the Government will push the Oxford vaccine hard because it's bought a lot, it's British, it's cheap and it's easy to deliver - but it's not clear that it works very well. In normal circs we'd wait for the second trial that they're now doing to see if the low dose variant can be verified, but that will take months and it's obviously urgent. But people will be reluctant to be injected, then told it's not very effective and they have to be injected again with something else.

    If we assume the 62% overall figure is correct, and you're offered it, do you take it, or hold out until it's verified or the Pfizer one is available? Probably take it, as 62% is a lot better than nothing, but if people then start relaxing and catching the infection anyway, there will be an anti-vaccine backlash. Genuinely difficult regardless of your politics or attitude to lockdown.
    They've bought a lot of many different vaccines, and it sounds as if the Pfizer one is going to be approved first, and as such will be used for the front line staff. And really, it doesn't work very well? I'm not sure why you are taking the lower value as the true estimate for the effectiveness.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928
    kle4 said:

    Why didn't he provide the proof then?

    Is sadly a question his lickspittles in Congress won't ask.
    Not only did he not provide proof, nor did he provide specific allegations, other than a general complaint that it's just not fair.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Gaussian said:

    alex_ said:

    Is Wales going to have to cancel their Christmas?

    It's certainly not looking good for them. They could be at three times the case numbers of the rest of the UK by mid December, with corresponding death numbers around New Year.

    Labour might have just lost the Senedd election in May.
    Luckily for them they never get called out on it. From day one, piss poor testing. While Hancock got all the shit over did he hit his target or was it fudged, Wales basically managed no increase in testing at all and wouldn't have anything to do with English labs.

    Now there are loads of articles about if English lockdown has worked, was it too.late, are the tiers right etc. Virtually no coverage of a total up f##k in Wales.
    The reason is very simple. No one in England is interested in Wales.
    But even the Welsh don't seem interested in Wales. They consistently elect terrible Labour governments which are provably shite.

    Mind you, the other Celtic UK nation which avoided this, Scotland, has now gone on to consistently elect obviously shite SNP governments.

    And then we come to England...
    .... which has never been a Tory fiefdom the way Labour have run Wales (and used to run Scotland - until the SNP took over the job of massively mediocre, one-party-government)

    This is not healthy, even a Nat can see this.

    One of the few things that could persuade me that Scottish independence is a good thing would be the end of SNP hegemony. It really is a recipe for rank corruption and awful governance. The Nats are unchallenged, and any government should and must be challenged.

    There won't be a new indyref til past 2024, I hope in that time Scotland chooses against Indy, and the SNP fail. If the Scots don't rethink, then I sincerely hope the SNP wins the ensuing referendum then quickly shatters into pieces soon after, for the good of democracy up North

    If you lads broke the habit of a lifetime and thought about it for more than 10 seconds you would probably stop fixating on how crap/corrupt/awful/hegemonic you think the SNP is. The last 14 polls have put Yes ahead by up to 16 points, just think think what it would be if the SNP were just a little bit less crap/corrupt/awful/hegemonic.
    Well - yes. Has it occurred to you that it might be 80/20 if any politician at Holyrood was capable of running a bath?
    You worry about the pols you can elect or reject and I'll worry about the ones I can.
    I note you haven’t got an answer.
This discussion has been closed.